Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: Klemp's Trickery of Belief

Expand Messages
  • Moby700
    Prometheus, you say something in this post which I have been thinking about. I only spent 5 years in ekult before I found numerous reasons to leave. But I
    Message 1 of 6 , May 18 9:45 AM
      Prometheus, you say something in this post which I have been thinking about. I only spent 5 years in ekult before I found numerous reasons to leave. But I never considered the idea that HIs were not advancing in consciousness. I can see your point, though. It makes sense.

      You have known far more HIs than I will ever meet. Did you find this consistently? That HIs are actually lowering/limiting their consciousness?

      It is an interesting question.

      Moby...



      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
      >
      > If someone told you that you appeared
      > in their dream and were mean to them
      > and wanted you to apologize would
      > you?
      >
      > Eckists will sometimes dream of Klemp
      > but he has no knowledge of them or of
      > the dream. He has to be told of the dream
      > in a snail mail letter. Then, he has to decide
      > if it was a positive dream in order to share
      > it in a talk, an ECK pub, or in another book.
      > If it was negative then he doesn't take credit
      > for it... that's the fault of the dreamer.
      >
      > Anyway, I thought this one-sided relationship
      > was worth looking at again. However, I'm
      > still puzzled as to why ECKists, who assume
      > they are so "spiritually" advanced, don't see
      > how someone else could use this same guise
      > to scam people. If someone else could use it
      > then why don't they think Klemp has? Maybe
      > they're tired of looking for a religion and Eckankar
      > at least talks about dreams and supports other
      > New Age and Alternative Medicine beliefs.
      >
      > What's both amusing and sad are two factors.
      > The longer one remains in Eckankar and the
      > higher in Initiations a person is (6-8) the less
      > advanced in consciousness they have become.
      > The delusion and the lie has become the truth.
      > True, they have become skilled speakers, promoters
      > and organizers but that's about it. And, yes,
      > the higher the rank the more they are admired.
      >
      > The other factor is even sadder. People have
      > dedicated their lives and vocations to Eckankar
      > and work at the ESC only to discover that it's
      > not what they originally thought it was or what
      > they thought they would become. They've become
      > lost in another meaningless religion. Sure they
      > have some ECK friends and they once believed
      > that they made a difference and helped to raise
      > world consciousness blah blah blah, instead, others
      > have become alienated from them as they become
      > walking talking ECK brochures. Pete and repeat!
      > It's no wonder they dream about that crap! But
      > those working at the ESC for all of those years
      > are trapped. What else do they have, where else
      > could they go? Just keep smiling and giving lip
      > service to higher consciousness. Just remember
      > one thing, if Klemp can fake it for all of those
      > years then you can too! Well, actually, Klemp has
      > an easier time at faking it since he's not around
      > people all day long.
      >
      > Prometheus
      >
    • prometheus_973
      Hello Moby, Yes, I had previously stated, The longer one remains in Eckankar and the higher in Initiations a person is (6-8) the less advanced in
      Message 2 of 6 , May 19 12:18 PM
        Hello Moby,
        Yes, I had previously stated,

        "The longer one remains in Eckankar and the
        higher in Initiations a person is (6-8) the less
        advanced in consciousness they have become.
        The delusion and the lie has become the truth.
        True, they have become skilled speakers, promoters
        and organizers but that's about it. And, yes,
        the higher the rank the more they are admired."


        One has to understand that people placed
        in unique situations where certain nice, or
        genteel behaviour is expected and required
        are merely "acting" the part. What one sees
        is the "tip of the iceberg" or a facade.

        Plus, there's the fact that many H.I. Leaders
        and authors, speakers, and even musicians
        are placed upon pedestals. It's not until one
        gets to "know" these people under more normal
        circumstances away from ECK events, outside
        of their leadership or special role, does one
        begin to understand what their broad range
        of opinions (likes and dislikes) are and to see
        into their truer personalities. Many are good
        people just like us. They simply bought into
        the Eckankar scam sooner and were promoted
        faster. Generally these H.I. Leaders present,
        or package, themselves differently because
        their delusion has created a new persona.

        Many are good at expressing ideas that they
        have gleaned, formulated, studied, rehearsed,
        and that have been reinforced via role playing
        experiences over time.

        The roles they have accepted and created are
        based upon ECK dogma (the lies of Twitchell).
        In truth, these H.I.s are just like anyone else
        who buys into delusion. Their consciousness
        and awareness, in fact, is often lower than one's
        expectations. This is where the imagination
        comes into play. 7ths imagine they are 8ths
        on the inner which, btw, carries over to the
        outer, and so on and so forth. Many H.I.s
        are very naive, fearful, gullible, closed minded,
        fantasize and have a degree of arrested development.
        After all, the belief in a phony "Mahanta" cannot
        elevate a person's consciousness... just the
        opposite! It, at the least, creates co-dependency!
        This is true even with those H.I.s who are
        egomaniacal control freaks.

        Those H.I.s who are higher in initiations and
        years of membership need to pretend, dream,
        fantasize, and rationalize more than the average
        ECKist. I'm amazed at their delusion and at the
        limitations (analytical and sensual) they have
        imposed upon themselves. Just ask them what
        their favorite books or movies are and see how
        limited and juvenile their interests are. Animal
        Angels anyone? How about human ones?

        I'll admit that I once had H.I.s upon pedestals.
        I've had non-Eckists and former Eckists upon
        pedestals too. That changed when I was able
        to speak to them more and find out more about
        them when discussing other issues. One has to
        get people to let their guard down in order to
        discover the individual. I'll admit that I felt disillusioned
        after learning the truth about my idols. Then,
        I realized that I was the one who had given
        them power over and above me. I imagined that
        they knew more, and they did about some things,
        but within Eckankar's org it's, basically, about
        dogma, or an organizational (guideline) issue.

        I actually thought that some H.I.s were more
        "spiritual" due to their Initiation rank or the
        books they had written, etc.. Wow! I was wrong!
        They were just more rehearsed.

        One's perspective and consciousness will change
        and expand, naturally, when they leave religion
        behind... Eckankar included.

        FYI-Some EK leaders are scammers and have
        full knowledge of their deceptions. Klemp uses
        generalities (dreams, etc.) to spread and "verify"
        his false teachings, but it all needs enhancement
        via the subjective imagination. Actually the false
        prophets of Eckankar, Klemp especially, gave
        themselves the power over us, and we bought
        into it. We trusted and were fooled!

        IMO-We are all equals (as Soul). This is one of
        the contradictions of Eckankar since initiations
        take away equality. Look at how Klemp, a 14th,
        is treated over 2nd, 6th, 7th or 8th initiates.
        After all, earth and everything here is no higher
        than the 4th Plane according to Eckankar. The
        (two) Holy Books of Eckankar, the Shariyats,
        are for the First Two Planes! And, Initiations
        correspond to the God Worlds or Planes of EK.
        What happened to Book 3 & 4 Harold?

        Actually, it's not necessary for Klemp to defend
        himself because he doesn't have to. What he says
        goes. He can make up anything and is believed.
        ECKists have no choice but to take the good crap
        with the bad crap, except, many will pick and choose
        what they want to follow... including his guidelines
        or RESAs.

        Prometheus




        Moby700 wrote:
        Prometheus, you say something in this post which
        I have been thinking about. I only spent 5 years
        in ekult before I found numerous reasons to leave.
        But I never considered the idea that HIs were not
        advancing in consciousness. I can see your point,
        though. It makes sense.

        You have known far more HIs than I will ever meet.
        Did you find this consistently? That HIs are actually
        lowering/limiting their consciousness?

        It is an interesting question.

        Moby...



        prometheus wrote:
        >
        > If someone told you that you appeared
        > in their dream and were mean to them
        > and wanted you to apologize would
        > you?
        >
        > Eckists will sometimes dream of Klemp
        > but he has no knowledge of them or of
        > the dream. He has to be told of the dream
        > in a snail mail letter. Then, he has to decide
        > if it was a positive dream in order to share
        > it in a talk, an ECK pub, or in another book.
        > If it was negative then he doesn't take credit
        > for it... that's the fault of the dreamer.
        >
        > Anyway, I thought this one-sided relationship
        > was worth looking at again. However, I'm
        > still puzzled as to why ECKists, who assume
        > they are so "spiritually" advanced, don't see
        > how someone else could use this same guise
        > to scam people. If someone else could use it
        > then why don't they think Klemp has? Maybe
        > they're tired of looking for a religion and Eckankar
        > at least talks about dreams and supports other
        > New Age and Alternative Medicine beliefs.
        >
        > What's both amusing and sad are two factors.
        > The longer one remains in Eckankar and the
        > higher in Initiations a person is (6-8) the less
        > advanced in consciousness they have become.
        > The delusion and the lie has become the truth.
        > True, they have become skilled speakers, promoters
        > and organizers but that's about it. And, yes,
        > the higher the rank the more they are admired.
        >
        > The other factor is even sadder. People have
        > dedicated their lives and vocations to Eckankar
        > and work at the ESC only to discover that it's
        > not what they originally thought it was or what
        > they thought they would become. They've become
        > lost in another meaningless religion. Sure they
        > have some ECK friends and they once believed
        > that they made a difference and helped to raise
        > world consciousness blah blah blah, instead, others
        > have become alienated from them as they become
        > walking talking ECK brochures. Pete and repeat!
        > It's no wonder they dream about that crap! But
        > those working at the ESC for all of those years
        > are trapped. What else do they have, where else
        > could they go? Just keep smiling and giving lip
        > service to higher consciousness. Just remember
        > one thing, if Klemp can fake it for all of those
        > years then you can too! Well, actually, Klemp has
        > an easier time at faking it since he's not around
        > people all day long.
        >
        > Prometheus
      • Moby700
        I have really enjoyed this analysis. It makes sense that HI s would need a persona - how in the world could they ever authentically integrate all that e-crap?
        Message 3 of 6 , May 20 5:15 PM
          I have really enjoyed this analysis. It makes sense that HI's would need a persona - how in the world could they ever authentically integrate all that e-crap?

          A RESA once told me that her favorite movie was "Date With An Angel". Ha. So help me. And that film is the most juvenile, nonsensical thing one could imagine.

          Thanks for the thoughtful response.

          Moby




          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hello Moby,
          > Yes, I had previously stated,
          >
          > "The longer one remains in Eckankar and the
          > higher in Initiations a person is (6-8) the less
          > advanced in consciousness they have become.
          > The delusion and the lie has become the truth.
          > True, they have become skilled speakers, promoters
          > and organizers but that's about it. And, yes,
          > the higher the rank the more they are admired."
          >
          >
          > One has to understand that people placed
          > in unique situations where certain nice, or
          > genteel behaviour is expected and required
          > are merely "acting" the part. What one sees
          > is the "tip of the iceberg" or a facade.
          >
          > Plus, there's the fact that many H.I. Leaders
          > and authors, speakers, and even musicians
          > are placed upon pedestals. It's not until one
          > gets to "know" these people under more normal
          > circumstances away from ECK events, outside
          > of their leadership or special role, does one
          > begin to understand what their broad range
          > of opinions (likes and dislikes) are and to see
          > into their truer personalities. Many are good
          > people just like us. They simply bought into
          > the Eckankar scam sooner and were promoted
          > faster. Generally these H.I. Leaders present,
          > or package, themselves differently because
          > their delusion has created a new persona.
          >
          > Many are good at expressing ideas that they
          > have gleaned, formulated, studied, rehearsed,
          > and that have been reinforced via role playing
          > experiences over time.
          >
          > The roles they have accepted and created are
          > based upon ECK dogma (the lies of Twitchell).
          > In truth, these H.I.s are just like anyone else
          > who buys into delusion. Their consciousness
          > and awareness, in fact, is often lower than one's
          > expectations. This is where the imagination
          > comes into play. 7ths imagine they are 8ths
          > on the inner which, btw, carries over to the
          > outer, and so on and so forth. Many H.I.s
          > are very naive, fearful, gullible, closed minded,
          > fantasize and have a degree of arrested development.
          > After all, the belief in a phony "Mahanta" cannot
          > elevate a person's consciousness... just the
          > opposite! It, at the least, creates co-dependency!
          > This is true even with those H.I.s who are
          > egomaniacal control freaks.
          >
          > Those H.I.s who are higher in initiations and
          > years of membership need to pretend, dream,
          > fantasize, and rationalize more than the average
          > ECKist. I'm amazed at their delusion and at the
          > limitations (analytical and sensual) they have
          > imposed upon themselves. Just ask them what
          > their favorite books or movies are and see how
          > limited and juvenile their interests are. Animal
          > Angels anyone? How about human ones?
          >
          > I'll admit that I once had H.I.s upon pedestals.
          > I've had non-Eckists and former Eckists upon
          > pedestals too. That changed when I was able
          > to speak to them more and find out more about
          > them when discussing other issues. One has to
          > get people to let their guard down in order to
          > discover the individual. I'll admit that I felt disillusioned
          > after learning the truth about my idols. Then,
          > I realized that I was the one who had given
          > them power over and above me. I imagined that
          > they knew more, and they did about some things,
          > but within Eckankar's org it's, basically, about
          > dogma, or an organizational (guideline) issue.
          >
          > I actually thought that some H.I.s were more
          > "spiritual" due to their Initiation rank or the
          > books they had written, etc.. Wow! I was wrong!
          > They were just more rehearsed.
          >
          > One's perspective and consciousness will change
          > and expand, naturally, when they leave religion
          > behind... Eckankar included.
          >
          > FYI-Some EK leaders are scammers and have
          > full knowledge of their deceptions. Klemp uses
          > generalities (dreams, etc.) to spread and "verify"
          > his false teachings, but it all needs enhancement
          > via the subjective imagination. Actually the false
          > prophets of Eckankar, Klemp especially, gave
          > themselves the power over us, and we bought
          > into it. We trusted and were fooled!
          >
          > IMO-We are all equals (as Soul). This is one of
          > the contradictions of Eckankar since initiations
          > take away equality. Look at how Klemp, a 14th,
          > is treated over 2nd, 6th, 7th or 8th initiates.
          > After all, earth and everything here is no higher
          > than the 4th Plane according to Eckankar. The
          > (two) Holy Books of Eckankar, the Shariyats,
          > are for the First Two Planes! And, Initiations
          > correspond to the God Worlds or Planes of EK.
          > What happened to Book 3 & 4 Harold?
          >
          > Actually, it's not necessary for Klemp to defend
          > himself because he doesn't have to. What he says
          > goes. He can make up anything and is believed.
          > ECKists have no choice but to take the good crap
          > with the bad crap, except, many will pick and choose
          > what they want to follow... including his guidelines
          > or RESAs.
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Moby700 wrote:
          > Prometheus, you say something in this post which
          > I have been thinking about. I only spent 5 years
          > in ekult before I found numerous reasons to leave.
          > But I never considered the idea that HIs were not
          > advancing in consciousness. I can see your point,
          > though. It makes sense.
          >
          > You have known far more HIs than I will ever meet.
          > Did you find this consistently? That HIs are actually
          > lowering/limiting their consciousness?
          >
          > It is an interesting question.
          >
          > Moby...
          >
          >
          >
          > prometheus wrote:
          > >
          > > If someone told you that you appeared
          > > in their dream and were mean to them
          > > and wanted you to apologize would
          > > you?
          > >
          > > Eckists will sometimes dream of Klemp
          > > but he has no knowledge of them or of
          > > the dream. He has to be told of the dream
          > > in a snail mail letter. Then, he has to decide
          > > if it was a positive dream in order to share
          > > it in a talk, an ECK pub, or in another book.
          > > If it was negative then he doesn't take credit
          > > for it... that's the fault of the dreamer.
          > >
          > > Anyway, I thought this one-sided relationship
          > > was worth looking at again. However, I'm
          > > still puzzled as to why ECKists, who assume
          > > they are so "spiritually" advanced, don't see
          > > how someone else could use this same guise
          > > to scam people. If someone else could use it
          > > then why don't they think Klemp has? Maybe
          > > they're tired of looking for a religion and Eckankar
          > > at least talks about dreams and supports other
          > > New Age and Alternative Medicine beliefs.
          > >
          > > What's both amusing and sad are two factors.
          > > The longer one remains in Eckankar and the
          > > higher in Initiations a person is (6-8) the less
          > > advanced in consciousness they have become.
          > > The delusion and the lie has become the truth.
          > > True, they have become skilled speakers, promoters
          > > and organizers but that's about it. And, yes,
          > > the higher the rank the more they are admired.
          > >
          > > The other factor is even sadder. People have
          > > dedicated their lives and vocations to Eckankar
          > > and work at the ESC only to discover that it's
          > > not what they originally thought it was or what
          > > they thought they would become. They've become
          > > lost in another meaningless religion. Sure they
          > > have some ECK friends and they once believed
          > > that they made a difference and helped to raise
          > > world consciousness blah blah blah, instead, others
          > > have become alienated from them as they become
          > > walking talking ECK brochures. Pete and repeat!
          > > It's no wonder they dream about that crap! But
          > > those working at the ESC for all of those years
          > > are trapped. What else do they have, where else
          > > could they go? Just keep smiling and giving lip
          > > service to higher consciousness. Just remember
          > > one thing, if Klemp can fake it for all of those
          > > years then you can too! Well, actually, Klemp has
          > > an easier time at faking it since he's not around
          > > people all day long.
          > >
          > > Prometheus
          >
        • prometheus_973
          Hello Moby and All, Thanks. IMO it s important to analyze our decision making process when looking for a religion or group to join. Why is always a good
          Message 4 of 6 , May 22 4:08 PM
            Hello Moby and All,
            Thanks. IMO it's important to analyze
            our decision making process when
            looking for a religion or group to join.

            "Why" is always a good question, as
            well as, "What" does it offer? We seem
            to join a group(s) to have some degree
            of social contact and to satisfy our
            individual curiosity. We all tend to identify
            and define ourselves within both generalized
            and specific parameters.

            People have a tendency to look to a
            leader and to higher more knowledgable
            source to guide or instruct them. Unfortunately,
            we tend to trust our fellow man way too
            much in this area. Or, maybe we're just
            lazy and overestimate them while under-
            estimating ourselves.

            I find it interesting that I had rejected
            Judaeo-Christian based religion and
            was looking to Eastern ones... found
            TM and then rejected it, but kept up
            the search until finding Eckankar.
            EK seemed like what I had been looking
            for and it seemed too good to be true.
            Little did I know, then, that it was...
            Too Good To Be TRUE! LOL!

            What's amazing to me is the dishonesty
            of Eckankar's PR. And, when did ECK, HU,
            and Mahanta become "common language?"

            Most Eckists won't admit it but the
            "ECK Initiations" are on the top of their
            list, or near the top of the list on importance.

            But, Initiations are seldom mentioned at
            intros and public workshops and book
            discussions. If H.I.s told people the importance
            of reaching each higher plane and how
            long it (usually) takes and what they had
            to do (ass kissing, coin, training, and service)
            I'm sure that even fewer people would join.
            However, at least people would know, up
            front, what they were getting into. Then
            again, all religions withhold details. Why
            would a True Seeker want to join another
            hierarchical based religion, unless, they
            were misled or confused to begin with?

            That's what Eckankar does. It misleads
            people into thinking it's a special secret
            mystery school which leads to the "Inner
            Planes" and "Higher Consciousness." But
            it doesn't deliver. It all takes place in one's
            imagination or dreams and leads to more
            and more delusion and more and more
            reliance, codependency, upon the fake
            Mahanta... Klemp.

            It's bait and switch! Eckists are first told
            of "Spiritual Freedom" and "Self-Mastery,"
            but even 7ths talk about total reliance
            upon the Mahanta. What happened to
            SOUL? They say things like, "I am what
            I am because the Mahanta loves me," or
            "I'm a fool for God." Well, maybe a Fool
            for Klemp the "modern" profit and agent
            for the 4th Plane God... Kal, i.e. Satan.

            Yes, Eckankar is a silly little (private)
            religious club.

            It's very difficult for Eckists to remain humble
            with all of those special initiations that make
            them higher than the 4th Plane God that all
            other religions worship! An ECKankar 5th
            initiate is not only higher in consciousness
            (according to EK scripture and to Klemp),
            but is on a higher heavenly plane than
            Mohammed and Allah!

            I wonder, why doesn't Eckankar advertise
            this little know fact about their religion?
            I know that Eckists claim to "respect" other
            religions, but that's merely paying lip
            service... and it's a deception when the
            facts are known. ECKists can't believe that
            other religions are following and praying
            to Satan (KAL) and still claim to "respect"
            these ignorant, primitive, and negative
            religions. That's insulting! Klemp, the LEM/
            Mahanta, has even stated this, about the
            4th Plane God, in his autobiography (pg.385).

            Prometheus


            Moby wrote:
            I have really enjoyed this analysis. It makes sense that HI's would need a
            persona - how in the world could they ever authentically integrate all that
            e-crap?

            A RESA once told me that her favorite movie was "Date With An Angel". Ha. So
            help me. And that film is the most juvenile, nonsensical thing one could
            imagine.

            Thanks for the thoughtful response.

            Moby




            prometheus wrote:
            >
            > Hello Moby,
            > Yes, I had previously stated,
            >
            > "The longer one remains in Eckankar and the
            > higher in Initiations a person is (6-8) the less
            > advanced in consciousness they have become.
            > The delusion and the lie has become the truth.
            > True, they have become skilled speakers, promoters
            > and organizers but that's about it. And, yes,
            > the higher the rank the more they are admired."
            >
            >
            > One has to understand that people placed
            > in unique situations where certain nice, or
            > genteel behaviour is expected and required
            > are merely "acting" the part. What one sees
            > is the "tip of the iceberg" or a facade.
            >
            > Plus, there's the fact that many H.I. Leaders
            > and authors, speakers, and even musicians
            > are placed upon pedestals. It's not until one
            > gets to "know" these people under more normal
            > circumstances away from ECK events, outside
            > of their leadership or special role, does one
            > begin to understand what their broad range
            > of opinions (likes and dislikes) are and to see
            > into their truer personalities. Many are good
            > people just like us. They simply bought into
            > the Eckankar scam sooner and were promoted
            > faster. Generally these H.I. Leaders present,
            > or package, themselves differently because
            > their delusion has created a new persona.
            >
            > Many are good at expressing ideas that they
            > have gleaned, formulated, studied, rehearsed,
            > and that have been reinforced via role playing
            > experiences over time.
            >
            > The roles they have accepted and created are
            > based upon ECK dogma (the lies of Twitchell).
            > In truth, these H.I.s are just like anyone else
            > who buys into delusion. Their consciousness
            > and awareness, in fact, is often lower than one's
            > expectations. This is where the imagination
            > comes into play. 7ths imagine they are 8ths
            > on the inner which, btw, carries over to the
            > outer, and so on and so forth. Many H.I.s
            > are very naive, fearful, gullible, closed minded,
            > fantasize and have a degree of arrested development.
            > After all, the belief in a phony "Mahanta" cannot
            > elevate a person's consciousness... just the
            > opposite! It, at the least, creates co-dependency!
            > This is true even with those H.I.s who are
            > egomaniacal control freaks.
            >
            > Those H.I.s who are higher in initiations and
            > years of membership need to pretend, dream,
            > fantasize, and rationalize more than the average
            > ECKist. I'm amazed at their delusion and at the
            > limitations (analytical and sensual) they have
            > imposed upon themselves. Just ask them what
            > their favorite books or movies are and see how
            > limited and juvenile their interests are. Animal
            > Angels anyone? How about human ones?
            >
            > I'll admit that I once had H.I.s upon pedestals.
            > I've had non-Eckists and former Eckists upon
            > pedestals too. That changed when I was able
            > to speak to them more and find out more about
            > them when discussing other issues. One has to
            > get people to let their guard down in order to
            > discover the individual. I'll admit that I felt disillusioned
            > after learning the truth about my idols. Then,
            > I realized that I was the one who had given
            > them power over and above me. I imagined that
            > they knew more, and they did about some things,
            > but within Eckankar's org it's, basically, about
            > dogma, or an organizational (guideline) issue.
            >
            > I actually thought that some H.I.s were more
            > "spiritual" due to their Initiation rank or the
            > books they had written, etc.. Wow! I was wrong!
            > They were just more rehearsed.
            >
            > One's perspective and consciousness will change
            > and expand, naturally, when they leave religion
            > behind... Eckankar included.
            >
            > FYI-Some EK leaders are scammers and have
            > full knowledge of their deceptions. Klemp uses
            > generalities (dreams, etc.) to spread and "verify"
            > his false teachings, but it all needs enhancement
            > via the subjective imagination. Actually the false
            > prophets of Eckankar, Klemp especially, gave
            > themselves the power over us, and we bought
            > into it. We trusted and were fooled!
            >
            > IMO-We are all equals (as Soul). This is one of
            > the contradictions of Eckankar since initiations
            > take away equality. Look at how Klemp, a 14th,
            > is treated over 2nd, 6th, 7th or 8th initiates.
            > After all, earth and everything here is no higher
            > than the 4th Plane according to Eckankar. The
            > (two) Holy Books of Eckankar, the Shariyats,
            > are for the First Two Planes! And, Initiations
            > correspond to the God Worlds or Planes of EK.
            > What happened to Book 3 & 4 Harold?
            >
            > Actually, it's not necessary for Klemp to defend
            > himself because he doesn't have to. What he says
            > goes. He can make up anything and is believed.
            > ECKists have no choice but to take the good crap
            > with the bad crap, except, many will pick and choose
            > what they want to follow... including his guidelines
            > or RESAs.
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Moby700 wrote:
            > Prometheus, you say something in this post which
            > I have been thinking about. I only spent 5 years
            > in ekult before I found numerous reasons to leave.
            > But I never considered the idea that HIs were not
            > advancing in consciousness. I can see your point,
            > though. It makes sense.
            >
            > You have known far more HIs than I will ever meet.
            > Did you find this consistently? That HIs are actually
            > lowering/limiting their consciousness?
            >
            > It is an interesting question.
            >
            > Moby...
            >
            >
            >
            > prometheus wrote:
            > >
            > > If someone told you that you appeared
            > > in their dream and were mean to them
            > > and wanted you to apologize would
            > > you?
            > >
            > > Eckists will sometimes dream of Klemp
            > > but he has no knowledge of them or of
            > > the dream. He has to be told of the dream
            > > in a snail mail letter. Then, he has to decide
            > > if it was a positive dream in order to share
            > > it in a talk, an ECK pub, or in another book.
            > > If it was negative then he doesn't take credit
            > > for it... that's the fault of the dreamer.
            > >
            > > Anyway, I thought this one-sided relationship
            > > was worth looking at again. However, I'm
            > > still puzzled as to why ECKists, who assume
            > > they are so "spiritually" advanced, don't see
            > > how someone else could use this same guise
            > > to scam people. If someone else could use it
            > > then why don't they think Klemp has? Maybe
            > > they're tired of looking for a religion and Eckankar
            > > at least talks about dreams and supports other
            > > New Age and Alternative Medicine beliefs.
            > >
            > > What's both amusing and sad are two factors.
            > > The longer one remains in Eckankar and the
            > > higher in Initiations a person is (6-8) the less
            > > advanced in consciousness they have become.
            > > The delusion and the lie has become the truth.
            > > True, they have become skilled speakers, promoters
            > > and organizers but that's about it. And, yes,
            > > the higher the rank the more they are admired.
            > >
            > > The other factor is even sadder. People have
            > > dedicated their lives and vocations to Eckankar
            > > and work at the ESC only to discover that it's
            > > not what they originally thought it was or what
            > > they thought they would become. They've become
            > > lost in another meaningless religion. Sure they
            > > have some ECK friends and they once believed
            > > that they made a difference and helped to raise
            > > world consciousness blah blah blah, instead, others
            > > have become alienated from them as they become
            > > walking talking ECK brochures. Pete and repeat!
            > > It's no wonder they dream about that crap! But
            > > those working at the ESC for all of those years
            > > are trapped. What else do they have, where else
            > > could they go? Just keep smiling and giving lip
            > > service to higher consciousness. Just remember
            > > one thing, if Klemp can fake it for all of those
            > > years then you can too! Well, actually, Klemp has
            > > an easier time at faking it since he's not around
            > > people all day long.
            > >
            > > Prometheus
          • dianastanley43
            Moby I was in Eckankar 13 years. I can t remember how many as a HI The longer I was in it the more false concepts I gained. Of course at the time I thought I
            Message 5 of 6 , Jul 12, 2011
              Moby I was in Eckankar 13 years. I can't remember how many as a HI
              The longer I was in it the more false concepts I gained. Of course at the time I thought I was gaining wisdom!
              I'v been studing quantum physics and Steven Hawkins is one of my favorite people.
              Diana Stanley

              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Moby700" <moby700@...> wrote:
              >
              > Prometheus, you say something in this post which I have been thinking about. I only spent 5 years in ekult before I found numerous reasons to leave. But I never considered the idea that HIs were not advancing in consciousness. I can see your point, though. It makes sense.
              >
              > You have known far more HIs than I will ever meet. Did you find this consistently? That HIs are actually lowering/limiting their consciousness?
              >
              > It is an interesting question.
              >
              > Moby...
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
              > >
              > > If someone told you that you appeared
              > > in their dream and were mean to them
              > > and wanted you to apologize would
              > > you?
              > >
              > > Eckists will sometimes dream of Klemp
              > > but he has no knowledge of them or of
              > > the dream. He has to be told of the dream
              > > in a snail mail letter. Then, he has to decide
              > > if it was a positive dream in order to share
              > > it in a talk, an ECK pub, or in another book.
              > > If it was negative then he doesn't take credit
              > > for it... that's the fault of the dreamer.
              > >
              > > Anyway, I thought this one-sided relationship
              > > was worth looking at again. However, I'm
              > > still puzzled as to why ECKists, who assume
              > > they are so "spiritually" advanced, don't see
              > > how someone else could use this same guise
              > > to scam people. If someone else could use it
              > > then why don't they think Klemp has? Maybe
              > > they're tired of looking for a religion and Eckankar
              > > at least talks about dreams and supports other
              > > New Age and Alternative Medicine beliefs.
              > >
              > > What's both amusing and sad are two factors.
              > > The longer one remains in Eckankar and the
              > > higher in Initiations a person is (6-8) the less
              > > advanced in consciousness they have become.
              > > The delusion and the lie has become the truth.
              > > True, they have become skilled speakers, promoters
              > > and organizers but that's about it. And, yes,
              > > the higher the rank the more they are admired.
              > >
              > > The other factor is even sadder. People have
              > > dedicated their lives and vocations to Eckankar
              > > and work at the ESC only to discover that it's
              > > not what they originally thought it was or what
              > > they thought they would become. They've become
              > > lost in another meaningless religion. Sure they
              > > have some ECK friends and they once believed
              > > that they made a difference and helped to raise
              > > world consciousness blah blah blah, instead, others
              > > have become alienated from them as they become
              > > walking talking ECK brochures. Pete and repeat!
              > > It's no wonder they dream about that crap! But
              > > those working at the ESC for all of those years
              > > are trapped. What else do they have, where else
              > > could they go? Just keep smiling and giving lip
              > > service to higher consciousness. Just remember
              > > one thing, if Klemp can fake it for all of those
              > > years then you can too! Well, actually, Klemp has
              > > an easier time at faking it since he's not around
              > > people all day long.
              > >
              > > Prometheus
              > >
              >
            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.