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Klemp's Trickery of Belief

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  • prometheus_973
    If someone told you that you appeared in their dream and were mean to them and wanted you to apologize would you? Eckists will sometimes dream of Klemp but he
    Message 1 of 6 , May 3, 2011
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      If someone told you that you appeared
      in their dream and were mean to them
      and wanted you to apologize would
      you?

      Eckists will sometimes dream of Klemp
      but he has no knowledge of them or of
      the dream. He has to be told of the dream
      in a snail mail letter. Then, he has to decide
      if it was a positive dream in order to share
      it in a talk, an ECK pub, or in another book.
      If it was negative then he doesn't take credit
      for it... that's the fault of the dreamer.

      Anyway, I thought this one-sided relationship
      was worth looking at again. However, I'm
      still puzzled as to why ECKists, who assume
      they are so "spiritually" advanced, don't see
      how someone else could use this same guise
      to scam people. If someone else could use it
      then why don't they think Klemp has? Maybe
      they're tired of looking for a religion and Eckankar
      at least talks about dreams and supports other
      New Age and Alternative Medicine beliefs.

      What's both amusing and sad are two factors.
      The longer one remains in Eckankar and the
      higher in Initiations a person is (6-8) the less
      advanced in consciousness they have become.
      The delusion and the lie has become the truth.
      True, they have become skilled speakers, promoters
      and organizers but that's about it. And, yes,
      the higher the rank the more they are admired.

      The other factor is even sadder. People have
      dedicated their lives and vocations to Eckankar
      and work at the ESC only to discover that it's
      not what they originally thought it was or what
      they thought they would become. They've become
      lost in another meaningless religion. Sure they
      have some ECK friends and they once believed
      that they made a difference and helped to raise
      world consciousness blah blah blah, instead, others
      have become alienated from them as they become
      walking talking ECK brochures. Pete and repeat!
      It's no wonder they dream about that crap! But
      those working at the ESC for all of those years
      are trapped. What else do they have, where else
      could they go? Just keep smiling and giving lip
      service to higher consciousness. Just remember
      one thing, if Klemp can fake it for all of those
      years then you can too! Well, actually, Klemp has
      an easier time at faking it since he's not around
      people all day long.

      Prometheus
    • Moby700
      Prometheus, you say something in this post which I have been thinking about. I only spent 5 years in ekult before I found numerous reasons to leave. But I
      Message 2 of 6 , May 18, 2011
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        Prometheus, you say something in this post which I have been thinking about. I only spent 5 years in ekult before I found numerous reasons to leave. But I never considered the idea that HIs were not advancing in consciousness. I can see your point, though. It makes sense.

        You have known far more HIs than I will ever meet. Did you find this consistently? That HIs are actually lowering/limiting their consciousness?

        It is an interesting question.

        Moby...



        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
        >
        > If someone told you that you appeared
        > in their dream and were mean to them
        > and wanted you to apologize would
        > you?
        >
        > Eckists will sometimes dream of Klemp
        > but he has no knowledge of them or of
        > the dream. He has to be told of the dream
        > in a snail mail letter. Then, he has to decide
        > if it was a positive dream in order to share
        > it in a talk, an ECK pub, or in another book.
        > If it was negative then he doesn't take credit
        > for it... that's the fault of the dreamer.
        >
        > Anyway, I thought this one-sided relationship
        > was worth looking at again. However, I'm
        > still puzzled as to why ECKists, who assume
        > they are so "spiritually" advanced, don't see
        > how someone else could use this same guise
        > to scam people. If someone else could use it
        > then why don't they think Klemp has? Maybe
        > they're tired of looking for a religion and Eckankar
        > at least talks about dreams and supports other
        > New Age and Alternative Medicine beliefs.
        >
        > What's both amusing and sad are two factors.
        > The longer one remains in Eckankar and the
        > higher in Initiations a person is (6-8) the less
        > advanced in consciousness they have become.
        > The delusion and the lie has become the truth.
        > True, they have become skilled speakers, promoters
        > and organizers but that's about it. And, yes,
        > the higher the rank the more they are admired.
        >
        > The other factor is even sadder. People have
        > dedicated their lives and vocations to Eckankar
        > and work at the ESC only to discover that it's
        > not what they originally thought it was or what
        > they thought they would become. They've become
        > lost in another meaningless religion. Sure they
        > have some ECK friends and they once believed
        > that they made a difference and helped to raise
        > world consciousness blah blah blah, instead, others
        > have become alienated from them as they become
        > walking talking ECK brochures. Pete and repeat!
        > It's no wonder they dream about that crap! But
        > those working at the ESC for all of those years
        > are trapped. What else do they have, where else
        > could they go? Just keep smiling and giving lip
        > service to higher consciousness. Just remember
        > one thing, if Klemp can fake it for all of those
        > years then you can too! Well, actually, Klemp has
        > an easier time at faking it since he's not around
        > people all day long.
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
      • prometheus_973
        Hello Moby, Yes, I had previously stated, The longer one remains in Eckankar and the higher in Initiations a person is (6-8) the less advanced in
        Message 3 of 6 , May 19, 2011
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          Hello Moby,
          Yes, I had previously stated,

          "The longer one remains in Eckankar and the
          higher in Initiations a person is (6-8) the less
          advanced in consciousness they have become.
          The delusion and the lie has become the truth.
          True, they have become skilled speakers, promoters
          and organizers but that's about it. And, yes,
          the higher the rank the more they are admired."


          One has to understand that people placed
          in unique situations where certain nice, or
          genteel behaviour is expected and required
          are merely "acting" the part. What one sees
          is the "tip of the iceberg" or a facade.

          Plus, there's the fact that many H.I. Leaders
          and authors, speakers, and even musicians
          are placed upon pedestals. It's not until one
          gets to "know" these people under more normal
          circumstances away from ECK events, outside
          of their leadership or special role, does one
          begin to understand what their broad range
          of opinions (likes and dislikes) are and to see
          into their truer personalities. Many are good
          people just like us. They simply bought into
          the Eckankar scam sooner and were promoted
          faster. Generally these H.I. Leaders present,
          or package, themselves differently because
          their delusion has created a new persona.

          Many are good at expressing ideas that they
          have gleaned, formulated, studied, rehearsed,
          and that have been reinforced via role playing
          experiences over time.

          The roles they have accepted and created are
          based upon ECK dogma (the lies of Twitchell).
          In truth, these H.I.s are just like anyone else
          who buys into delusion. Their consciousness
          and awareness, in fact, is often lower than one's
          expectations. This is where the imagination
          comes into play. 7ths imagine they are 8ths
          on the inner which, btw, carries over to the
          outer, and so on and so forth. Many H.I.s
          are very naive, fearful, gullible, closed minded,
          fantasize and have a degree of arrested development.
          After all, the belief in a phony "Mahanta" cannot
          elevate a person's consciousness... just the
          opposite! It, at the least, creates co-dependency!
          This is true even with those H.I.s who are
          egomaniacal control freaks.

          Those H.I.s who are higher in initiations and
          years of membership need to pretend, dream,
          fantasize, and rationalize more than the average
          ECKist. I'm amazed at their delusion and at the
          limitations (analytical and sensual) they have
          imposed upon themselves. Just ask them what
          their favorite books or movies are and see how
          limited and juvenile their interests are. Animal
          Angels anyone? How about human ones?

          I'll admit that I once had H.I.s upon pedestals.
          I've had non-Eckists and former Eckists upon
          pedestals too. That changed when I was able
          to speak to them more and find out more about
          them when discussing other issues. One has to
          get people to let their guard down in order to
          discover the individual. I'll admit that I felt disillusioned
          after learning the truth about my idols. Then,
          I realized that I was the one who had given
          them power over and above me. I imagined that
          they knew more, and they did about some things,
          but within Eckankar's org it's, basically, about
          dogma, or an organizational (guideline) issue.

          I actually thought that some H.I.s were more
          "spiritual" due to their Initiation rank or the
          books they had written, etc.. Wow! I was wrong!
          They were just more rehearsed.

          One's perspective and consciousness will change
          and expand, naturally, when they leave religion
          behind... Eckankar included.

          FYI-Some EK leaders are scammers and have
          full knowledge of their deceptions. Klemp uses
          generalities (dreams, etc.) to spread and "verify"
          his false teachings, but it all needs enhancement
          via the subjective imagination. Actually the false
          prophets of Eckankar, Klemp especially, gave
          themselves the power over us, and we bought
          into it. We trusted and were fooled!

          IMO-We are all equals (as Soul). This is one of
          the contradictions of Eckankar since initiations
          take away equality. Look at how Klemp, a 14th,
          is treated over 2nd, 6th, 7th or 8th initiates.
          After all, earth and everything here is no higher
          than the 4th Plane according to Eckankar. The
          (two) Holy Books of Eckankar, the Shariyats,
          are for the First Two Planes! And, Initiations
          correspond to the God Worlds or Planes of EK.
          What happened to Book 3 & 4 Harold?

          Actually, it's not necessary for Klemp to defend
          himself because he doesn't have to. What he says
          goes. He can make up anything and is believed.
          ECKists have no choice but to take the good crap
          with the bad crap, except, many will pick and choose
          what they want to follow... including his guidelines
          or RESAs.

          Prometheus




          Moby700 wrote:
          Prometheus, you say something in this post which
          I have been thinking about. I only spent 5 years
          in ekult before I found numerous reasons to leave.
          But I never considered the idea that HIs were not
          advancing in consciousness. I can see your point,
          though. It makes sense.

          You have known far more HIs than I will ever meet.
          Did you find this consistently? That HIs are actually
          lowering/limiting their consciousness?

          It is an interesting question.

          Moby...



          prometheus wrote:
          >
          > If someone told you that you appeared
          > in their dream and were mean to them
          > and wanted you to apologize would
          > you?
          >
          > Eckists will sometimes dream of Klemp
          > but he has no knowledge of them or of
          > the dream. He has to be told of the dream
          > in a snail mail letter. Then, he has to decide
          > if it was a positive dream in order to share
          > it in a talk, an ECK pub, or in another book.
          > If it was negative then he doesn't take credit
          > for it... that's the fault of the dreamer.
          >
          > Anyway, I thought this one-sided relationship
          > was worth looking at again. However, I'm
          > still puzzled as to why ECKists, who assume
          > they are so "spiritually" advanced, don't see
          > how someone else could use this same guise
          > to scam people. If someone else could use it
          > then why don't they think Klemp has? Maybe
          > they're tired of looking for a religion and Eckankar
          > at least talks about dreams and supports other
          > New Age and Alternative Medicine beliefs.
          >
          > What's both amusing and sad are two factors.
          > The longer one remains in Eckankar and the
          > higher in Initiations a person is (6-8) the less
          > advanced in consciousness they have become.
          > The delusion and the lie has become the truth.
          > True, they have become skilled speakers, promoters
          > and organizers but that's about it. And, yes,
          > the higher the rank the more they are admired.
          >
          > The other factor is even sadder. People have
          > dedicated their lives and vocations to Eckankar
          > and work at the ESC only to discover that it's
          > not what they originally thought it was or what
          > they thought they would become. They've become
          > lost in another meaningless religion. Sure they
          > have some ECK friends and they once believed
          > that they made a difference and helped to raise
          > world consciousness blah blah blah, instead, others
          > have become alienated from them as they become
          > walking talking ECK brochures. Pete and repeat!
          > It's no wonder they dream about that crap! But
          > those working at the ESC for all of those years
          > are trapped. What else do they have, where else
          > could they go? Just keep smiling and giving lip
          > service to higher consciousness. Just remember
          > one thing, if Klemp can fake it for all of those
          > years then you can too! Well, actually, Klemp has
          > an easier time at faking it since he's not around
          > people all day long.
          >
          > Prometheus
        • Moby700
          I have really enjoyed this analysis. It makes sense that HI s would need a persona - how in the world could they ever authentically integrate all that e-crap?
          Message 4 of 6 , May 20, 2011
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            I have really enjoyed this analysis. It makes sense that HI's would need a persona - how in the world could they ever authentically integrate all that e-crap?

            A RESA once told me that her favorite movie was "Date With An Angel". Ha. So help me. And that film is the most juvenile, nonsensical thing one could imagine.

            Thanks for the thoughtful response.

            Moby




            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hello Moby,
            > Yes, I had previously stated,
            >
            > "The longer one remains in Eckankar and the
            > higher in Initiations a person is (6-8) the less
            > advanced in consciousness they have become.
            > The delusion and the lie has become the truth.
            > True, they have become skilled speakers, promoters
            > and organizers but that's about it. And, yes,
            > the higher the rank the more they are admired."
            >
            >
            > One has to understand that people placed
            > in unique situations where certain nice, or
            > genteel behaviour is expected and required
            > are merely "acting" the part. What one sees
            > is the "tip of the iceberg" or a facade.
            >
            > Plus, there's the fact that many H.I. Leaders
            > and authors, speakers, and even musicians
            > are placed upon pedestals. It's not until one
            > gets to "know" these people under more normal
            > circumstances away from ECK events, outside
            > of their leadership or special role, does one
            > begin to understand what their broad range
            > of opinions (likes and dislikes) are and to see
            > into their truer personalities. Many are good
            > people just like us. They simply bought into
            > the Eckankar scam sooner and were promoted
            > faster. Generally these H.I. Leaders present,
            > or package, themselves differently because
            > their delusion has created a new persona.
            >
            > Many are good at expressing ideas that they
            > have gleaned, formulated, studied, rehearsed,
            > and that have been reinforced via role playing
            > experiences over time.
            >
            > The roles they have accepted and created are
            > based upon ECK dogma (the lies of Twitchell).
            > In truth, these H.I.s are just like anyone else
            > who buys into delusion. Their consciousness
            > and awareness, in fact, is often lower than one's
            > expectations. This is where the imagination
            > comes into play. 7ths imagine they are 8ths
            > on the inner which, btw, carries over to the
            > outer, and so on and so forth. Many H.I.s
            > are very naive, fearful, gullible, closed minded,
            > fantasize and have a degree of arrested development.
            > After all, the belief in a phony "Mahanta" cannot
            > elevate a person's consciousness... just the
            > opposite! It, at the least, creates co-dependency!
            > This is true even with those H.I.s who are
            > egomaniacal control freaks.
            >
            > Those H.I.s who are higher in initiations and
            > years of membership need to pretend, dream,
            > fantasize, and rationalize more than the average
            > ECKist. I'm amazed at their delusion and at the
            > limitations (analytical and sensual) they have
            > imposed upon themselves. Just ask them what
            > their favorite books or movies are and see how
            > limited and juvenile their interests are. Animal
            > Angels anyone? How about human ones?
            >
            > I'll admit that I once had H.I.s upon pedestals.
            > I've had non-Eckists and former Eckists upon
            > pedestals too. That changed when I was able
            > to speak to them more and find out more about
            > them when discussing other issues. One has to
            > get people to let their guard down in order to
            > discover the individual. I'll admit that I felt disillusioned
            > after learning the truth about my idols. Then,
            > I realized that I was the one who had given
            > them power over and above me. I imagined that
            > they knew more, and they did about some things,
            > but within Eckankar's org it's, basically, about
            > dogma, or an organizational (guideline) issue.
            >
            > I actually thought that some H.I.s were more
            > "spiritual" due to their Initiation rank or the
            > books they had written, etc.. Wow! I was wrong!
            > They were just more rehearsed.
            >
            > One's perspective and consciousness will change
            > and expand, naturally, when they leave religion
            > behind... Eckankar included.
            >
            > FYI-Some EK leaders are scammers and have
            > full knowledge of their deceptions. Klemp uses
            > generalities (dreams, etc.) to spread and "verify"
            > his false teachings, but it all needs enhancement
            > via the subjective imagination. Actually the false
            > prophets of Eckankar, Klemp especially, gave
            > themselves the power over us, and we bought
            > into it. We trusted and were fooled!
            >
            > IMO-We are all equals (as Soul). This is one of
            > the contradictions of Eckankar since initiations
            > take away equality. Look at how Klemp, a 14th,
            > is treated over 2nd, 6th, 7th or 8th initiates.
            > After all, earth and everything here is no higher
            > than the 4th Plane according to Eckankar. The
            > (two) Holy Books of Eckankar, the Shariyats,
            > are for the First Two Planes! And, Initiations
            > correspond to the God Worlds or Planes of EK.
            > What happened to Book 3 & 4 Harold?
            >
            > Actually, it's not necessary for Klemp to defend
            > himself because he doesn't have to. What he says
            > goes. He can make up anything and is believed.
            > ECKists have no choice but to take the good crap
            > with the bad crap, except, many will pick and choose
            > what they want to follow... including his guidelines
            > or RESAs.
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Moby700 wrote:
            > Prometheus, you say something in this post which
            > I have been thinking about. I only spent 5 years
            > in ekult before I found numerous reasons to leave.
            > But I never considered the idea that HIs were not
            > advancing in consciousness. I can see your point,
            > though. It makes sense.
            >
            > You have known far more HIs than I will ever meet.
            > Did you find this consistently? That HIs are actually
            > lowering/limiting their consciousness?
            >
            > It is an interesting question.
            >
            > Moby...
            >
            >
            >
            > prometheus wrote:
            > >
            > > If someone told you that you appeared
            > > in their dream and were mean to them
            > > and wanted you to apologize would
            > > you?
            > >
            > > Eckists will sometimes dream of Klemp
            > > but he has no knowledge of them or of
            > > the dream. He has to be told of the dream
            > > in a snail mail letter. Then, he has to decide
            > > if it was a positive dream in order to share
            > > it in a talk, an ECK pub, or in another book.
            > > If it was negative then he doesn't take credit
            > > for it... that's the fault of the dreamer.
            > >
            > > Anyway, I thought this one-sided relationship
            > > was worth looking at again. However, I'm
            > > still puzzled as to why ECKists, who assume
            > > they are so "spiritually" advanced, don't see
            > > how someone else could use this same guise
            > > to scam people. If someone else could use it
            > > then why don't they think Klemp has? Maybe
            > > they're tired of looking for a religion and Eckankar
            > > at least talks about dreams and supports other
            > > New Age and Alternative Medicine beliefs.
            > >
            > > What's both amusing and sad are two factors.
            > > The longer one remains in Eckankar and the
            > > higher in Initiations a person is (6-8) the less
            > > advanced in consciousness they have become.
            > > The delusion and the lie has become the truth.
            > > True, they have become skilled speakers, promoters
            > > and organizers but that's about it. And, yes,
            > > the higher the rank the more they are admired.
            > >
            > > The other factor is even sadder. People have
            > > dedicated their lives and vocations to Eckankar
            > > and work at the ESC only to discover that it's
            > > not what they originally thought it was or what
            > > they thought they would become. They've become
            > > lost in another meaningless religion. Sure they
            > > have some ECK friends and they once believed
            > > that they made a difference and helped to raise
            > > world consciousness blah blah blah, instead, others
            > > have become alienated from them as they become
            > > walking talking ECK brochures. Pete and repeat!
            > > It's no wonder they dream about that crap! But
            > > those working at the ESC for all of those years
            > > are trapped. What else do they have, where else
            > > could they go? Just keep smiling and giving lip
            > > service to higher consciousness. Just remember
            > > one thing, if Klemp can fake it for all of those
            > > years then you can too! Well, actually, Klemp has
            > > an easier time at faking it since he's not around
            > > people all day long.
            > >
            > > Prometheus
            >
          • prometheus_973
            Hello Moby and All, Thanks. IMO it s important to analyze our decision making process when looking for a religion or group to join. Why is always a good
            Message 5 of 6 , May 22, 2011
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              Hello Moby and All,
              Thanks. IMO it's important to analyze
              our decision making process when
              looking for a religion or group to join.

              "Why" is always a good question, as
              well as, "What" does it offer? We seem
              to join a group(s) to have some degree
              of social contact and to satisfy our
              individual curiosity. We all tend to identify
              and define ourselves within both generalized
              and specific parameters.

              People have a tendency to look to a
              leader and to higher more knowledgable
              source to guide or instruct them. Unfortunately,
              we tend to trust our fellow man way too
              much in this area. Or, maybe we're just
              lazy and overestimate them while under-
              estimating ourselves.

              I find it interesting that I had rejected
              Judaeo-Christian based religion and
              was looking to Eastern ones... found
              TM and then rejected it, but kept up
              the search until finding Eckankar.
              EK seemed like what I had been looking
              for and it seemed too good to be true.
              Little did I know, then, that it was...
              Too Good To Be TRUE! LOL!

              What's amazing to me is the dishonesty
              of Eckankar's PR. And, when did ECK, HU,
              and Mahanta become "common language?"

              Most Eckists won't admit it but the
              "ECK Initiations" are on the top of their
              list, or near the top of the list on importance.

              But, Initiations are seldom mentioned at
              intros and public workshops and book
              discussions. If H.I.s told people the importance
              of reaching each higher plane and how
              long it (usually) takes and what they had
              to do (ass kissing, coin, training, and service)
              I'm sure that even fewer people would join.
              However, at least people would know, up
              front, what they were getting into. Then
              again, all religions withhold details. Why
              would a True Seeker want to join another
              hierarchical based religion, unless, they
              were misled or confused to begin with?

              That's what Eckankar does. It misleads
              people into thinking it's a special secret
              mystery school which leads to the "Inner
              Planes" and "Higher Consciousness." But
              it doesn't deliver. It all takes place in one's
              imagination or dreams and leads to more
              and more delusion and more and more
              reliance, codependency, upon the fake
              Mahanta... Klemp.

              It's bait and switch! Eckists are first told
              of "Spiritual Freedom" and "Self-Mastery,"
              but even 7ths talk about total reliance
              upon the Mahanta. What happened to
              SOUL? They say things like, "I am what
              I am because the Mahanta loves me," or
              "I'm a fool for God." Well, maybe a Fool
              for Klemp the "modern" profit and agent
              for the 4th Plane God... Kal, i.e. Satan.

              Yes, Eckankar is a silly little (private)
              religious club.

              It's very difficult for Eckists to remain humble
              with all of those special initiations that make
              them higher than the 4th Plane God that all
              other religions worship! An ECKankar 5th
              initiate is not only higher in consciousness
              (according to EK scripture and to Klemp),
              but is on a higher heavenly plane than
              Mohammed and Allah!

              I wonder, why doesn't Eckankar advertise
              this little know fact about their religion?
              I know that Eckists claim to "respect" other
              religions, but that's merely paying lip
              service... and it's a deception when the
              facts are known. ECKists can't believe that
              other religions are following and praying
              to Satan (KAL) and still claim to "respect"
              these ignorant, primitive, and negative
              religions. That's insulting! Klemp, the LEM/
              Mahanta, has even stated this, about the
              4th Plane God, in his autobiography (pg.385).

              Prometheus


              Moby wrote:
              I have really enjoyed this analysis. It makes sense that HI's would need a
              persona - how in the world could they ever authentically integrate all that
              e-crap?

              A RESA once told me that her favorite movie was "Date With An Angel". Ha. So
              help me. And that film is the most juvenile, nonsensical thing one could
              imagine.

              Thanks for the thoughtful response.

              Moby




              prometheus wrote:
              >
              > Hello Moby,
              > Yes, I had previously stated,
              >
              > "The longer one remains in Eckankar and the
              > higher in Initiations a person is (6-8) the less
              > advanced in consciousness they have become.
              > The delusion and the lie has become the truth.
              > True, they have become skilled speakers, promoters
              > and organizers but that's about it. And, yes,
              > the higher the rank the more they are admired."
              >
              >
              > One has to understand that people placed
              > in unique situations where certain nice, or
              > genteel behaviour is expected and required
              > are merely "acting" the part. What one sees
              > is the "tip of the iceberg" or a facade.
              >
              > Plus, there's the fact that many H.I. Leaders
              > and authors, speakers, and even musicians
              > are placed upon pedestals. It's not until one
              > gets to "know" these people under more normal
              > circumstances away from ECK events, outside
              > of their leadership or special role, does one
              > begin to understand what their broad range
              > of opinions (likes and dislikes) are and to see
              > into their truer personalities. Many are good
              > people just like us. They simply bought into
              > the Eckankar scam sooner and were promoted
              > faster. Generally these H.I. Leaders present,
              > or package, themselves differently because
              > their delusion has created a new persona.
              >
              > Many are good at expressing ideas that they
              > have gleaned, formulated, studied, rehearsed,
              > and that have been reinforced via role playing
              > experiences over time.
              >
              > The roles they have accepted and created are
              > based upon ECK dogma (the lies of Twitchell).
              > In truth, these H.I.s are just like anyone else
              > who buys into delusion. Their consciousness
              > and awareness, in fact, is often lower than one's
              > expectations. This is where the imagination
              > comes into play. 7ths imagine they are 8ths
              > on the inner which, btw, carries over to the
              > outer, and so on and so forth. Many H.I.s
              > are very naive, fearful, gullible, closed minded,
              > fantasize and have a degree of arrested development.
              > After all, the belief in a phony "Mahanta" cannot
              > elevate a person's consciousness... just the
              > opposite! It, at the least, creates co-dependency!
              > This is true even with those H.I.s who are
              > egomaniacal control freaks.
              >
              > Those H.I.s who are higher in initiations and
              > years of membership need to pretend, dream,
              > fantasize, and rationalize more than the average
              > ECKist. I'm amazed at their delusion and at the
              > limitations (analytical and sensual) they have
              > imposed upon themselves. Just ask them what
              > their favorite books or movies are and see how
              > limited and juvenile their interests are. Animal
              > Angels anyone? How about human ones?
              >
              > I'll admit that I once had H.I.s upon pedestals.
              > I've had non-Eckists and former Eckists upon
              > pedestals too. That changed when I was able
              > to speak to them more and find out more about
              > them when discussing other issues. One has to
              > get people to let their guard down in order to
              > discover the individual. I'll admit that I felt disillusioned
              > after learning the truth about my idols. Then,
              > I realized that I was the one who had given
              > them power over and above me. I imagined that
              > they knew more, and they did about some things,
              > but within Eckankar's org it's, basically, about
              > dogma, or an organizational (guideline) issue.
              >
              > I actually thought that some H.I.s were more
              > "spiritual" due to their Initiation rank or the
              > books they had written, etc.. Wow! I was wrong!
              > They were just more rehearsed.
              >
              > One's perspective and consciousness will change
              > and expand, naturally, when they leave religion
              > behind... Eckankar included.
              >
              > FYI-Some EK leaders are scammers and have
              > full knowledge of their deceptions. Klemp uses
              > generalities (dreams, etc.) to spread and "verify"
              > his false teachings, but it all needs enhancement
              > via the subjective imagination. Actually the false
              > prophets of Eckankar, Klemp especially, gave
              > themselves the power over us, and we bought
              > into it. We trusted and were fooled!
              >
              > IMO-We are all equals (as Soul). This is one of
              > the contradictions of Eckankar since initiations
              > take away equality. Look at how Klemp, a 14th,
              > is treated over 2nd, 6th, 7th or 8th initiates.
              > After all, earth and everything here is no higher
              > than the 4th Plane according to Eckankar. The
              > (two) Holy Books of Eckankar, the Shariyats,
              > are for the First Two Planes! And, Initiations
              > correspond to the God Worlds or Planes of EK.
              > What happened to Book 3 & 4 Harold?
              >
              > Actually, it's not necessary for Klemp to defend
              > himself because he doesn't have to. What he says
              > goes. He can make up anything and is believed.
              > ECKists have no choice but to take the good crap
              > with the bad crap, except, many will pick and choose
              > what they want to follow... including his guidelines
              > or RESAs.
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Moby700 wrote:
              > Prometheus, you say something in this post which
              > I have been thinking about. I only spent 5 years
              > in ekult before I found numerous reasons to leave.
              > But I never considered the idea that HIs were not
              > advancing in consciousness. I can see your point,
              > though. It makes sense.
              >
              > You have known far more HIs than I will ever meet.
              > Did you find this consistently? That HIs are actually
              > lowering/limiting their consciousness?
              >
              > It is an interesting question.
              >
              > Moby...
              >
              >
              >
              > prometheus wrote:
              > >
              > > If someone told you that you appeared
              > > in their dream and were mean to them
              > > and wanted you to apologize would
              > > you?
              > >
              > > Eckists will sometimes dream of Klemp
              > > but he has no knowledge of them or of
              > > the dream. He has to be told of the dream
              > > in a snail mail letter. Then, he has to decide
              > > if it was a positive dream in order to share
              > > it in a talk, an ECK pub, or in another book.
              > > If it was negative then he doesn't take credit
              > > for it... that's the fault of the dreamer.
              > >
              > > Anyway, I thought this one-sided relationship
              > > was worth looking at again. However, I'm
              > > still puzzled as to why ECKists, who assume
              > > they are so "spiritually" advanced, don't see
              > > how someone else could use this same guise
              > > to scam people. If someone else could use it
              > > then why don't they think Klemp has? Maybe
              > > they're tired of looking for a religion and Eckankar
              > > at least talks about dreams and supports other
              > > New Age and Alternative Medicine beliefs.
              > >
              > > What's both amusing and sad are two factors.
              > > The longer one remains in Eckankar and the
              > > higher in Initiations a person is (6-8) the less
              > > advanced in consciousness they have become.
              > > The delusion and the lie has become the truth.
              > > True, they have become skilled speakers, promoters
              > > and organizers but that's about it. And, yes,
              > > the higher the rank the more they are admired.
              > >
              > > The other factor is even sadder. People have
              > > dedicated their lives and vocations to Eckankar
              > > and work at the ESC only to discover that it's
              > > not what they originally thought it was or what
              > > they thought they would become. They've become
              > > lost in another meaningless religion. Sure they
              > > have some ECK friends and they once believed
              > > that they made a difference and helped to raise
              > > world consciousness blah blah blah, instead, others
              > > have become alienated from them as they become
              > > walking talking ECK brochures. Pete and repeat!
              > > It's no wonder they dream about that crap! But
              > > those working at the ESC for all of those years
              > > are trapped. What else do they have, where else
              > > could they go? Just keep smiling and giving lip
              > > service to higher consciousness. Just remember
              > > one thing, if Klemp can fake it for all of those
              > > years then you can too! Well, actually, Klemp has
              > > an easier time at faking it since he's not around
              > > people all day long.
              > >
              > > Prometheus
            • dianastanley43
              Moby I was in Eckankar 13 years. I can t remember how many as a HI The longer I was in it the more false concepts I gained. Of course at the time I thought I
              Message 6 of 6 , Jul 12 11:04 AM
              • 0 Attachment
                Moby I was in Eckankar 13 years. I can't remember how many as a HI
                The longer I was in it the more false concepts I gained. Of course at the time I thought I was gaining wisdom!
                I'v been studing quantum physics and Steven Hawkins is one of my favorite people.
                Diana Stanley

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Moby700" <moby700@...> wrote:
                >
                > Prometheus, you say something in this post which I have been thinking about. I only spent 5 years in ekult before I found numerous reasons to leave. But I never considered the idea that HIs were not advancing in consciousness. I can see your point, though. It makes sense.
                >
                > You have known far more HIs than I will ever meet. Did you find this consistently? That HIs are actually lowering/limiting their consciousness?
                >
                > It is an interesting question.
                >
                > Moby...
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                > >
                > > If someone told you that you appeared
                > > in their dream and were mean to them
                > > and wanted you to apologize would
                > > you?
                > >
                > > Eckists will sometimes dream of Klemp
                > > but he has no knowledge of them or of
                > > the dream. He has to be told of the dream
                > > in a snail mail letter. Then, he has to decide
                > > if it was a positive dream in order to share
                > > it in a talk, an ECK pub, or in another book.
                > > If it was negative then he doesn't take credit
                > > for it... that's the fault of the dreamer.
                > >
                > > Anyway, I thought this one-sided relationship
                > > was worth looking at again. However, I'm
                > > still puzzled as to why ECKists, who assume
                > > they are so "spiritually" advanced, don't see
                > > how someone else could use this same guise
                > > to scam people. If someone else could use it
                > > then why don't they think Klemp has? Maybe
                > > they're tired of looking for a religion and Eckankar
                > > at least talks about dreams and supports other
                > > New Age and Alternative Medicine beliefs.
                > >
                > > What's both amusing and sad are two factors.
                > > The longer one remains in Eckankar and the
                > > higher in Initiations a person is (6-8) the less
                > > advanced in consciousness they have become.
                > > The delusion and the lie has become the truth.
                > > True, they have become skilled speakers, promoters
                > > and organizers but that's about it. And, yes,
                > > the higher the rank the more they are admired.
                > >
                > > The other factor is even sadder. People have
                > > dedicated their lives and vocations to Eckankar
                > > and work at the ESC only to discover that it's
                > > not what they originally thought it was or what
                > > they thought they would become. They've become
                > > lost in another meaningless religion. Sure they
                > > have some ECK friends and they once believed
                > > that they made a difference and helped to raise
                > > world consciousness blah blah blah, instead, others
                > > have become alienated from them as they become
                > > walking talking ECK brochures. Pete and repeat!
                > > It's no wonder they dream about that crap! But
                > > those working at the ESC for all of those years
                > > are trapped. What else do they have, where else
                > > could they go? Just keep smiling and giving lip
                > > service to higher consciousness. Just remember
                > > one thing, if Klemp can fake it for all of those
                > > years then you can too! Well, actually, Klemp has
                > > an easier time at faking it since he's not around
                > > people all day long.
                > >
                > > Prometheus
                > >
                >
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