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Re: "The Dark Side of ECKankar"

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  • dianastanley43
    ... Diana
    Message 1 of 24 , Feb 21, 2011
      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
      > Paul commissioned me to do a sculpture of him so the Eckist would have something to focus on,I quess it was supposed to compete with jesus on the cross, any way he died befor it was finished and the stature fell apart befor I could make a mold of it. I thought Paul destroyed when he died as a lot of hi's at the time felt that. Acually it was bad craftsmanship on my part. I have to say it was pretty neat, he was sitting on a stool looking holy.
      Diana
      >
      >
      >
      > Hello Avonblue and All,
      > I was first introduced to the
      > "quantum physics/mechanics/
      > field theory" scam via Maharishi
      > of TM fame. Adam Dreamhealer
      > and many other scammers have
      > used and abused this theory
      > to explain how their brand of
      > whatever works. I'm surprised
      > that Klemp hasn't used this hook
      > in order to combine science and
      > spirituality.
      >
      > It is quite interesting how Klemp
      > gradually became "the" God/Mahanta.
      >
      > And, even though he has stated,
      > "don't worship me" he has Eckists
      > stare at his picture and chant HU.
      >
      > Plus, he has them dream of him
      > and beseech him with requests,
      > questions, help, protection, and
      > for healing. So, HK instructs Eckists
      > to pray to him (the Mahanta), but
      > says he's not to be worshipped.
      > How's that work? Of course he's
      > worshipped!
      >
      > And, who or what is "worshipped" by
      > Eckists at ECK Worship Services (EWS)?
      > Is it the ECK? Klemp claims to be that
      > too, or is it the Mahanta or both?
      > So, on the "outer" Klemp is the leader
      > (LEM) of Eckankar and on the "inner"
      > he claims to be the ECK and the Mahanta.
      > But wouldn't he, also, be the ECK and
      > the Mahanta on the "outer" as well?
      > This is where/how Klemp tricks ECKists
      > into worshipping him. He's everything
      > and claims to be levels higher than the
      > God that other religions worship. Yet,
      > just like Twitchell fooled people, Klemp
      > does the same. Telling ECKists not to
      > worship him is a disclaimer so that he
      > can avoid responsibility.
      >
      > It's really laughable that older ECKists
      > turned their backs on the religion of
      > their parents because "God" never answered
      > their prayers, etc. Now, they've substituted
      > Klemp for Jesus or Moses or who and what
      > ever. How stupid is that!
      >
      > Strange that Sugmad isn't worshipped
      > at these EWS events and neither is God.
      > God is discussed some, but a real Eckist
      > knows that "God" is code for the Mahanta,
      > or the KAL, it depends. So, who/what is
      > worshipped? The ECK? That's Klemp too!
      > Klemp, in one way or the other is always
      > the main focus! Really, who does the Mahanta
      > look like? And, yet, do Eckists really think
      > about what they are really doing when they
      > worship, pray HU, contemplate upon, dream,
      > and beseech "the" Mahanta/ECK (Klemp)
      > for help? Apparently not!
      >
      > Prometheus
      >
      >
      > Avonblue wrote:
      > Diana and All,
      >
      > I came to eckankar back in the 70's because I felt religion was an abomination
      > and the lure of free exploration of our spiritual self was truly revolutionary.
      > Eckankar eventually failed to be the magical mystical carpet ride it was
      > purported to be but instead a rehash and reinvention of eastern and western
      > mumbo jumbo recreated by a charlatan. I too have explored quantum physics and
      > especially the advances in neuroscience over the past several years and have
      > come to the belief that "spirituality" and for the that matter "god" is nothing
      > more than misunderstood and undiscovered as of yet science.
      >
      > dianastanley43"
      > dianastanley43@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Rosemarie you are quite right. I started with Eckankar and ended up studing
      > quantum Physics What I finally came to the conclusion of was if you were sitting
      > in you living room you didn't need a spiritual path to find your living room. It
      > has not been an easy journy as I was loath to give up the idea of the mystical
      > and magical and I traveled many paths in the 30 yrs after leaving Eckankar. One
      > day I read a quote that changed my belief system of years. "God did'nt create
      > the universe God became the universe. It's interesting that when the time is
      > right I might understand something that a few yrs earlier would not have ment
      > anything.
      > > Diana
      > >
      > Rosemarie Bucci <rblustar wrote:
      >
      > Hi Diana,
      > I've had lots of experiences before
      > my journey into eckankar and while on
      > this path. I have read David Lane's book
      > and Ford Johnson's book as well.
      >
      > I've been to eck satsangs, eck book
      > discussions and eck seminars also.
      > I agree that honesty is essential the
      > name of GOD on all levels.
      >
      > I also understand that truth is truth
      > and will always be the truth.
      >
      > I think it's important to remain open
      > and honest regardless of what path we
      > follow and to be there for one another
      > as much as we can. We are all searching
      > which is wonderful.
      >
      > Therefore, we are not wrong in doing
      > so and let's remember, we all have each
      > other to try to put all this in perspective.
      > We have so much to bring to one another
      > on our many different levels of knowledge
      > and experience.
      >
      > I know we'll get through this some day
      > and be stronger for it even if it hurts
      > sometimes. If we are to stand before
      > GOD and try to journey back to GOD,
      > we must be brave and remain in truth.
      >
      >
      >
      > Prometheus: But there is no Truth
      > in Eckankar nor in any religion. It's
      > desperation, fear, lies, myth (stories),
      > imagination, pretend, and delusion!
      >
      >
      >
      > Thank you for getting back to me.
      > Rosemarie
      >
    • starshine917
      Hello prometheus_973: Remember me? Wow, it s so weird that I d be writing to you now….exactly, one year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I
      Message 2 of 24 , Sep 4, 2011
        Hello prometheus_973:
        Remember me? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writing to you now….exactly, one year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I didn't plan it like this but somehow it just worked out this way.

        I recently left Eckankar. And, you were right….I read David Lane's paper as well as Ford Johnson's "Confessions of a God Seeker" And, for some reason at that time I remained in the group tying to focus on the so-called positive side of the Eckankar, the hypnotic rederick that goes nowhere while ignoring the facts. I then started to take a good look at Harold…looked into his "dark" eyes and listened to his figure of monotone speak and I realized it was very hypnotic, and at the same time very inviting. I wondered who or what was inside of those dark eyes….And they seem to always come as "the light". Yes, the "angel of light".

        I was in a satsang at that time and I found it disturbing more and more that his same picture of himself, which by the way never changes, the one and only picture that has to be present at all Eckankar meetings was never questioned by it's members. All the books we studied were written by him and only him !!! And how some members were "higher" than others depending on their "initiation" number, even if these people knew absolutely nothing except what was written in the books of Eckankar. Some of these people seemed to have anger issues too which didn't seem to fit the spiritual portrait of a saint they painted. I started to feel uncomfortable around these people cause they seemed more and more to me like mind-controlled slaves. And, they too could see that I was thinking and starting to pull away because I no longer looked to them without question, with blind authority.

        So, it wasn't a good mix to say the very least. I finally had it out with one of the members and I realized that I already left…In my heart, I choose to follow truth and I also realized that that in Eckankar, I was being deceived. And I realized that I couldn't have it both ways. I had to pick my convictions and go with them. After all, why would I go against my own self, and what was in my heart ?

        In Eckankar it is taught to open and follow your heart but yet, if you dare open your mind and begin to ask challenging questions, you're in trouble because these people think the Mahanta in Eckankar is above all else and should never be questioned, and your heart should be open to "him", the self appointed master, Harold Klemp. Even if the members of Eckankar are not honest with themselves enough to admit it consciously. On a subconscious level, they know better !!!

        The shame of it all is that this deception is done in the name of an unconditional open heart to give love, which it is true, a part of GOD's flow but where's the truth ? What happened to that part of GOD ??? I guess it got lost in the sea of love…


        Hello prometheus_973;
        Remember me ? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writ

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello Rosemarie,
        > I am a seeker of Truth as well.
        > And yes, this article on "The Dark
        > Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
        > there is a dark side to Eckankar and
        > there is also fear.
        >
        > I find it interesting that you've
        > read (and I assume have contemplated
        > upon) David Lane's research as well as
        > Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
        > and have, still, remained an ECKist.
        >
        > What happened to your "critical thinking?"
        > Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
        > you agree with some of it but not all of
        > it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
        > I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
        > isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
        > what they believe than any other religion
        > they've found. Is that the case with you?
        >
        > I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
        > book, threw it away (because of the bad
        > vibes), and then placed themselves upon
        > pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
        > and talk Eckists through their doubts and
        > concerns.
        >
        > You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
        > not all truth is the same. That's why there
        > are so many churches. People are social
        > animals and tend to seek out others with
        > similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
        > to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
        > to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
        > and a test for Soul.
        >
        > I also got the impression that you don't
        > participate much within the RESA structure.
        > Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
        > Do you know that you have to watch what
        > you say? You've observed and learned that
        > correct? You do care about being promoted
        > to that next initiation right?
        >
        > Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
        > take on the subjects that we've been discussing
        > here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
        > lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
        > for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
        > Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
        > when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
        > "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
        > detectors just for his talk?
        >
        > You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues. 
        > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
        > at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."
        >
        > BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
        > read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?
        >
        > Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
        > the table.
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
        > rosemarie wrote:
        > Hi Diana,
        >
        > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth is truth and will always be the truth.
        >
        > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember, we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
        >
        > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must be brave and remain in truth.
        >
        > Thank you for getting back to me.
        > Rosemarie
        >
        >
        > dianastanley wrote:
        >
        > Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time. If it is hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew and was their experience I also say.
        >
        > Diana Stanley
        >
        > Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
        >
        > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who are
        > searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
        > findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
        > thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.
        >
        > I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues. 
        > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
        > have allot to bring to the table.
        >  
        > I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
        > called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
        > site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because I'd
        > raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
        > well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
        > complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
        > thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely objective.
        > For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
        > paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
        >  
        > I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
        > within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on the
        > facts.
        >
        > I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
        > the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
        > belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking.
        > Do you?
        >
      • prometheus_973
        Hello All, Just thought I d share some additional comments to what Starshine wrote. starshine917 wrote: Hello prometheus_973: Remember me? Wow, it s so weird
        Message 3 of 24 , Sep 11, 2011
          Hello All,
          Just thought I'd share some
          additional comments to what
          Starshine wrote.

          starshine917 wrote:
          Hello prometheus_973:
          Remember me? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writing to you now….exactly, one
          year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I didn't plan it like
          this but somehow it just worked out this way.


          ME: Yes, it takes awhile for the
          realization to occur and sink in
          even after one decides to look
          for and analyze it via critical
          thinking while giving HK's/PT's
          redundant words a litmus test
          for truthiness.


          I recently left Eckankar. And, you were right….I read David Lane's paper as well
          as Ford Johnson's "Confessions of a God Seeker" And, for some reason at that
          time I remained in the group tying to focus on the so-called positive side of
          the Eckankar, the hypnotic rederick that goes nowhere while ignoring the facts.
          I then started to take a good look at Harold…looked into his "dark" eyes and
          listened to his figure of monotone speak and I realized it was very hypnotic,
          and at the same time very inviting. I wondered who or what was inside of those
          dark eyes….And they seem to always come as "the light". Yes, the "angel of
          light".


          ME: Klemp is no angel of light! He spreads
          darkness and delusion while denying Eckists
          their true nature as Soul. He gives (hope),
          promises (higher plane initiations), and then
          takes it all away (hope of ever getting beyond
          the 7th initiation while in this lifetime, unless,
          one pretends or imagines they are higher
          via vanity and frustration).


          I was in a satsang at that time and I found it disturbing more and more that his
          same picture of himself, which by the way never changes, the one and only
          picture that has to be present at all Eckankar meetings was never questioned by
          it's members. All the books we studied were written by him and only him !!! And
          how some members were "higher" than others depending on their "initiation"
          number, even if these people knew absolutely nothing except what was written in
          the books of Eckankar. Some of these people seemed to have anger issues too
          which didn't seem to fit the spiritual portrait of a saint they painted. I
          started to feel uncomfortable around these people cause they seemed more and
          more to me like mind-controlled slaves. And, they too could see that I was
          thinking and starting to pull away because I no longer looked to them without
          question, with blind authority.


          ME: Yes, that more youthful looking
          Official Picture of Klemp's is a vain act,
          but is never questioned because to do
          so would get one Black Listed on initiations.
          Those longtime Eckists who are part
          of the RESA Hierarchy know what I'm
          saying. Some H.I.s are fearful/cautious
          of the spies that report to the RESA and
          only share certain things (anti-Guideline
          comments, etc.) around those H.I.s they
          can trust.


          BTW- There are some books, that Klemp
          has approved of, written by non-Eck
          authors that Eckists can read. However,
          the Eckist must always focus upon the
          ECK or Mahanta when reading these
          books and, thus, give up free, unfettered,
          thought. Some of these books are
          recommended to those in leadership
          positions and are business oriented.



          So, it wasn't a good mix to say the very least. I finally had it out with one of
          the members and I realized that I already left…In my heart, I choose to follow
          truth and I also realized that that in Eckankar, I was being deceived. And I
          realized that I couldn't have it both ways. I had to pick my convictions and go
          with them. After all, why would I go against my own self, and what was in my
          heart?


          ME: It's the easy way to place an
          authority figure on a shelf higher
          than yourself. Less thinking and
          effort is involved when blind trust
          takes over. It's lazy but that's what
          people do. Look at how we allow
          the politicians to say and do as
          they please without taking responsibility.
          With Klemp, it's always the chela's
          fault and never his own! He slowed-
          down initiations in 1985, but doesn't
          need to explain why these haven't
          sped up because he answers to
          nobody else, except, Sugmad right?


          In Eckankar it is taught to open and follow your heart but yet, if you dare open
          your mind and begin to ask challenging questions, you're in trouble because
          these people think the Mahanta in Eckankar is above all else and should never be
          questioned, and your heart should be open to "him", the self appointed master,
          Harold Klemp. Even if the members of Eckankar are not honest with themselves
          enough to admit it consciously. On a subconscious level, they know better !!!

          ME: That following your heart
          thing is more about the Astral
          Heart Chakra... which is lower
          than the Third Eye or Tisra Til!
          Why didn't Klemp at least use
          the (Astral) Crown Chakra when
          having Eckists HU? After 30 years
          and HK still has Eckists HUing
          and focusing upon the 6th,
          Third Eye, Astral Chakra versus
          the 7th Crown Chakra!


          The shame of it all is that this deception is done in the name of an
          unconditional open heart to give love, which it is true, a part of GOD's flow
          but where's the truth ? What happened to that part of GOD ??? I guess it got
          lost in the sea of love…


          ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
          "common language" but it's not
          quite true. ECK is not a common
          word and neither is Mahanta.
          And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
          to is not the same (4th Plane) God
          others worship or think he is speaking
          about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
          use the word GOD when it's not
          who or what they are referring
          to. It's like comparing apples
          to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
          start out, and are trained, to be
          deceptive to non-Eckists. This
          fact alone makes Eckankar look
          very cult like. But, why the lie?
          The "common language" excuse
          doesn't hold water but Eckists
          can't question this underhanded
          practice or else they can have
          their position taken away and
          be Black Listed and shunned.

          Prometheus



          Hello prometheus_973;
          Remember me ? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writ


          <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hello Rosemarie,
          > I am a seeker of Truth as well.
          > And yes, this article on "The Dark
          > Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
          > there is a dark side to Eckankar and
          > there is also fear.
          >
          > I find it interesting that you've
          > read (and I assume have contemplated
          > upon) David Lane's research as well as
          > Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
          > and have, still, remained an ECKist.
          >
          > What happened to your "critical thinking?"
          > Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
          > you agree with some of it but not all of
          > it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
          > I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
          > isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
          > what they believe than any other religion
          > they've found. Is that the case with you?
          >
          > I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
          > book, threw it away (because of the bad
          > vibes), and then placed themselves upon
          > pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
          > and talk Eckists through their doubts and
          > concerns.
          >
          > You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
          > not all truth is the same. That's why there
          > are so many churches. People are social
          > animals and tend to seek out others with
          > similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
          > to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
          > to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
          > and a test for Soul.
          >
          > I also got the impression that you don't
          > participate much within the RESA structure.
          > Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
          > Do you know that you have to watch what
          > you say? You've observed and learned that
          > correct? You do care about being promoted
          > to that next initiation right?
          >
          > Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
          > take on the subjects that we've been discussing
          > here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
          > lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
          > for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
          > Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
          > when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
          > "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
          > detectors just for his talk?
          >
          > You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues.
          > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
          > at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."
          >
          > BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
          > read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?
          >
          > Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
          > the table.
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
          > rosemarie wrote:
          > Hi Diana,
          >
          > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this
          path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been
          to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that
          honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth
          is truth and will always be the truth.
          >
          > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we
          follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching
          which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember,
          we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to
          bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
          >
          > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts
          sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must
          be brave and remain in truth.
          >
          > Thank you for getting back to me.
          > Rosemarie
          >
          >
          > dianastanley wrote:
          >
          > Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any
          direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from
          personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time. If it is
          hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew and was their
          experience I also say.
          >
          > Diana Stanley
          >
          > Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
          >
          > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who
          are searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
          findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
          thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.
          >
          I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues.
          We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
          have allot to bring to the table.
          >
          I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
          called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
          site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because
          I'd raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
          well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
          complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
          thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely
          objective.

          For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
          paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
          >
          I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
          within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on
          the facts.
          >
          I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
          the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
          belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking.
          Do you?
        • postekcon
          Re ... ME: Klemp likes to say he uses common language but it s not quite true. ECK is not a common word and neither is Mahanta. And, the God (Sugmad) he
          Message 4 of 24 , Sep 11, 2011
            Re
            >>>
            ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
            "common language" but it's not
            quite true. ECK is not a common
            word and neither is Mahanta.
            And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
            to is not the same (4th Plane) God
            others worship or think he is speaking
            about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
            use the word GOD when it's not
            who or what they are referring
            to. It's like comparing apples
            to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
            start out, and are trained, to be
            deceptive to non-Eckists. This
            fact alone makes Eckankar look
            very cult like. But, why the lie?
            The "common language" excuse
            doesn't hold water but Eckists
            can't question this underhanded
            practice or else they can have
            their position taken away and
            be Black Listed and shunned.
            >>>


            For the past ten years, I have observed this pattern.

            Hard working HIs (50-70yrs plus) busy putting on Intro Talks, occasionally enrolling a new recruit to ekult.

            However, within a year or two, the new recruit leaves ekult as nothing makes sense! Of course, the HIs, unable to look at either themselves or ekult, always blame the new recruit with comments such as lack of unfoldment etc!

            For the new recruit, the reason nothing makes sense, I've observed, is thus. The HIs bring the new recruit into Paul Twitchell/Darwin Gross ekult; the ekult into which they themselved were enrolled. Now this version of ekult promised it had the tools for self/god realization in this lifetime etc. However, several MW (Mystic World) issues later, the new recruit comes to understand these 'good people' lied to them!
            -Postekcon


            In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hello All,
            > Just thought I'd share some
            > additional comments to what
            > Starshine wrote.
            >
            > starshine917 wrote:
            > Hello prometheus_973:
            > Remember me? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writing to you now….exactly, one
            > year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I didn't plan it like
            > this but somehow it just worked out this way.
            >
            >
            > ME: Yes, it takes awhile for the
            > realization to occur and sink in
            > even after one decides to look
            > for and analyze it via critical
            > thinking while giving HK's/PT's
            > redundant words a litmus test
            > for truthiness.
            >
            >
            > I recently left Eckankar. And, you were right….I read David Lane's paper as well
            > as Ford Johnson's "Confessions of a God Seeker" And, for some reason at that
            > time I remained in the group tying to focus on the so-called positive side of
            > the Eckankar, the hypnotic rederick that goes nowhere while ignoring the facts.
            > I then started to take a good look at Harold…looked into his "dark" eyes and
            > listened to his figure of monotone speak and I realized it was very hypnotic,
            > and at the same time very inviting. I wondered who or what was inside of those
            > dark eyes….And they seem to always come as "the light". Yes, the "angel of
            > light".
            >
            >
            > ME: Klemp is no angel of light! He spreads
            > darkness and delusion while denying Eckists
            > their true nature as Soul. He gives (hope),
            > promises (higher plane initiations), and then
            > takes it all away (hope of ever getting beyond
            > the 7th initiation while in this lifetime, unless,
            > one pretends or imagines they are higher
            > via vanity and frustration).
            >
            >
            > I was in a satsang at that time and I found it disturbing more and more that his
            > same picture of himself, which by the way never changes, the one and only
            > picture that has to be present at all Eckankar meetings was never questioned by
            > it's members. All the books we studied were written by him and only him !!! And
            > how some members were "higher" than others depending on their "initiation"
            > number, even if these people knew absolutely nothing except what was written in
            > the books of Eckankar. Some of these people seemed to have anger issues too
            > which didn't seem to fit the spiritual portrait of a saint they painted. I
            > started to feel uncomfortable around these people cause they seemed more and
            > more to me like mind-controlled slaves. And, they too could see that I was
            > thinking and starting to pull away because I no longer looked to them without
            > question, with blind authority.
            >
            >
            > ME: Yes, that more youthful looking
            > Official Picture of Klemp's is a vain act,
            > but is never questioned because to do
            > so would get one Black Listed on initiations.
            > Those longtime Eckists who are part
            > of the RESA Hierarchy know what I'm
            > saying. Some H.I.s are fearful/cautious
            > of the spies that report to the RESA and
            > only share certain things (anti-Guideline
            > comments, etc.) around those H.I.s they
            > can trust.
            >
            >
            > BTW- There are some books, that Klemp
            > has approved of, written by non-Eck
            > authors that Eckists can read. However,
            > the Eckist must always focus upon the
            > ECK or Mahanta when reading these
            > books and, thus, give up free, unfettered,
            > thought. Some of these books are
            > recommended to those in leadership
            > positions and are business oriented.
            >
            >
            >
            > So, it wasn't a good mix to say the very least. I finally had it out with one of
            > the members and I realized that I already left…In my heart, I choose to follow
            > truth and I also realized that that in Eckankar, I was being deceived. And I
            > realized that I couldn't have it both ways. I had to pick my convictions and go
            > with them. After all, why would I go against my own self, and what was in my
            > heart?
            >
            >
            > ME: It's the easy way to place an
            > authority figure on a shelf higher
            > than yourself. Less thinking and
            > effort is involved when blind trust
            > takes over. It's lazy but that's what
            > people do. Look at how we allow
            > the politicians to say and do as
            > they please without taking responsibility.
            > With Klemp, it's always the chela's
            > fault and never his own! He slowed-
            > down initiations in 1985, but doesn't
            > need to explain why these haven't
            > sped up because he answers to
            > nobody else, except, Sugmad right?
            >
            >
            > In Eckankar it is taught to open and follow your heart but yet, if you dare open
            > your mind and begin to ask challenging questions, you're in trouble because
            > these people think the Mahanta in Eckankar is above all else and should never be
            > questioned, and your heart should be open to "him", the self appointed master,
            > Harold Klemp. Even if the members of Eckankar are not honest with themselves
            > enough to admit it consciously. On a subconscious level, they know better !!!
            >
            > ME: That following your heart
            > thing is more about the Astral
            > Heart Chakra... which is lower
            > than the Third Eye or Tisra Til!
            > Why didn't Klemp at least use
            > the (Astral) Crown Chakra when
            > having Eckists HU? After 30 years
            > and HK still has Eckists HUing
            > and focusing upon the 6th,
            > Third Eye, Astral Chakra versus
            > the 7th Crown Chakra!
            >
            >
            > The shame of it all is that this deception is done in the name of an
            > unconditional open heart to give love, which it is true, a part of GOD's flow
            > but where's the truth ? What happened to that part of GOD ??? I guess it got
            > lost in the sea of love…
            >
            >
            > ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
            > "common language" but it's not
            > quite true. ECK is not a common
            > word and neither is Mahanta.
            > And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
            > to is not the same (4th Plane) God
            > others worship or think he is speaking
            > about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
            > use the word GOD when it's not
            > who or what they are referring
            > to. It's like comparing apples
            > to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
            > start out, and are trained, to be
            > deceptive to non-Eckists. This
            > fact alone makes Eckankar look
            > very cult like. But, why the lie?
            > The "common language" excuse
            > doesn't hold water but Eckists
            > can't question this underhanded
            > practice or else they can have
            > their position taken away and
            > be Black Listed and shunned.
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
            >
            >
            > Hello prometheus_973;
            > Remember me ? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writ
            >
            >
            > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hello Rosemarie,
            > > I am a seeker of Truth as well.
            > > And yes, this article on "The Dark
            > > Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
            > > there is a dark side to Eckankar and
            > > there is also fear.
            > >
            > > I find it interesting that you've
            > > read (and I assume have contemplated
            > > upon) David Lane's research as well as
            > > Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
            > > and have, still, remained an ECKist.
            > >
            > > What happened to your "critical thinking?"
            > > Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
            > > you agree with some of it but not all of
            > > it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
            > > I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
            > > isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
            > > what they believe than any other religion
            > > they've found. Is that the case with you?
            > >
            > > I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
            > > book, threw it away (because of the bad
            > > vibes), and then placed themselves upon
            > > pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
            > > and talk Eckists through their doubts and
            > > concerns.
            > >
            > > You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
            > > not all truth is the same. That's why there
            > > are so many churches. People are social
            > > animals and tend to seek out others with
            > > similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
            > > to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
            > > to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
            > > and a test for Soul.
            > >
            > > I also got the impression that you don't
            > > participate much within the RESA structure.
            > > Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
            > > Do you know that you have to watch what
            > > you say? You've observed and learned that
            > > correct? You do care about being promoted
            > > to that next initiation right?
            > >
            > > Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
            > > take on the subjects that we've been discussing
            > > here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
            > > lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
            > > for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
            > > Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
            > > when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
            > > "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
            > > detectors just for his talk?
            > >
            > > You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues.
            > > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
            > > at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."
            > >
            > > BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
            > > read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?
            > >
            > > Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
            > > the table.
            > >
            > > Prometheus
            > >
            > > rosemarie wrote:
            > > Hi Diana,
            > >
            > > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this
            > path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been
            > to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that
            > honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth
            > is truth and will always be the truth.
            > >
            > > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we
            > follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching
            > which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember,
            > we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to
            > bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
            > >
            > > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts
            > sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must
            > be brave and remain in truth.
            > >
            > > Thank you for getting back to me.
            > > Rosemarie
            > >
            > >
            > > dianastanley wrote:
            > >
            > > Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any
            > direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from
            > personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time. If it is
            > hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew and was their
            > experience I also say.
            > >
            > > Diana Stanley
            > >
            > > Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
            > >
            > > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who
            > are searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
            > findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
            > thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.
            > >
            > I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues.
            > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
            > have allot to bring to the table.
            > >
            > I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
            > called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
            > site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because
            > I'd raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
            > well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
            > complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
            > thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely
            > objective.
            >
            > For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
            > paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
            > >
            > I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
            > within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on
            > the facts.
            > >
            > I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
            > the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
            > belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking.
            > Do you?
            >
          • prometheus_973
            Hello Postekcon and All, Yes, it was always a conundrum trying to recruit new members via spreading the word i.e. manure. However, we had structured public
            Message 5 of 24 , Sep 14, 2011
              Hello Postekcon and All,
              Yes, it was always a conundrum
              trying to recruit new members
              via "spreading the word" i.e.
              manure. However, we had
              structured public workshops
              and/or book discussions with
              Guidelines spelling out what
              to do and how to do it.

              Some RESA areas did experimental
              programs (special projects),
              and if successful, the ESC
              tweaked them to be used
              elsewhere. It was all quite
              time consuming and frustrating.
              Local areas and the H.I.s were
              always judged on the numbers
              of newbies showing up for
              these events. Most people
              were repeats and were into
              metaphysics or were the friends,
              coworkers or relatives of Eckists.

              I recall that one local area
              of a neighboring state was
              having a lot of success via
              large turnouts of newbies.
              They probably had a couple
              of hundred newbies in one
              year and that was practically
              unheard of in Eckankar. Several
              of these H.I.s were very proud
              of the "high counts" they turned
              in to the ESC. However, out
              of all of those newbies only
              about ten joined Eckankar
              and only, maybe, one or two
              remained after a year. These,
              I doubt, remained for the
              long haul. Let's face it, it's
              a dead end religion where
              one pretends, i.e. imagines
              or visualizes, their desires
              for "spiritual" progress and
              "knowingness" or "realization"
              of varying degrees. The initiation
              game is the main, underlying,
              theme. The problem, for Eckists,
              is that dangling carrot when
              initiations have been "slowed-
              down" for 25 years and the
              highest most can go is the 7th!

              Those 7th initiates who had
              hit the glass ceiling 20 or more
              years ago have rationalized
              it all away. They only stay in
              EK because they have some
              prestige, a lot of Eck friends,
              and have paid their dues with
              a lot of vahana and satsang
              work over the years. Plus, they've
              been taught to "imagine" and
              visualize, therefore, all they
              need to do is pretend they are
              8ths (on the inner). Most pretend
              they are higher than 8ths. After
              all, Darwin skipped or sped up
              initiations even for Klemp. So,
              if it was valid, then, why not
              today? Actually, just about all
              Eckists pretent they are "higher"
              than the number printed on
              their Membership Cards.

              Anyway, the reason why
              the EK Youth effort has
              gained some momentum
              over the years is because
              it's easier to brainwash a
              controlled subject. However,
              that doesn't always work,
              either, when these young
              Eckists see their parents
              act so nutty and non-Eck
              like. Plus, reclusive Klemp
              puts a lot of pressure upon
              them to do the vahana/
              missionary thing when
              it's tough enough getting
              through school and those
              teen years. Klemp doesn't
              have any empathy. He was
              in a Lutheran all boys high
              school and never learned
              about dating until he got
              out of the Air Force (1968)
              when he was 26 years old!

              One has to wonder why
              Klemp doesn't do his fair
              share of public vahana work.
              Why doesn't he have a radio
              show or do and say something
              in real time? The EK Seminars
              don't count. That's for maybe
              a hundred newbies who aren't
              all that "new" and for his brain-
              washed followers.

              In theory, Klemp's real "spiritual"
              mission is to help his followers
              achieve God Realization. However,
              what Initiation level is the indicator
              that this has been accomplished?

              According to Book 2, CH. 12 of
              the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad (Eckankar's
              Holy Book) their God, Sugmad,
              resides on the 10th Plane, however,
              Eckists must have the 11th Initiation
              for "entrance into the Sugmad world,
              which is the highest world of God,
              if any, may enter."

              Of course, that's not quite true either
              since there're the 12th, 13th, and 14th
              initiations after this one. This, then,
              is where one (supposedly) enters into
              Soul's true home called The Ocean of
              love and Mercy. However, one can see
              why EK Higher initiates (5-7) become
              internally frustrated since, except for
              a handful of people, they will never
              even see the 8th initiation (in this
              lifetime). That's the Catch/Con that
              Twitchell invented and Klemp inherited.
              Hope via promises for a better afterlife
              while imagining day-to-day miracles
              and dreaming about one's pre-programmed
              expectations. It's how any and every
              religion works.

              Prometheus




              "postekcon" wrote:
              Re
              >>>
              ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
              "common language" but it's not
              quite true. ECK is not a common
              word and neither is Mahanta.
              And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
              to is not the same (4th Plane) God
              others worship or think he is speaking
              about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
              use the word GOD when it's not
              who or what they are referring
              to. It's like comparing apples
              to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
              start out, and are trained, to be
              deceptive to non-Eckists. This
              fact alone makes Eckankar look
              very cult like. But, why the lie?
              The "common language" excuse
              doesn't hold water but Eckists
              can't question this underhanded
              practice or else they can have
              their position taken away and
              can be Black Listed and shunned.
              >>>


              For the past ten years, I have observed this pattern.

              Hard working HIs (50-70yrs plus) busy putting on Intro Talks, occasionally
              enrolling a new recruit to ekult.

              However, within a year or two, the new recruit leaves ekult as nothing makes
              sense! Of course, the HIs, unable to look at either themselves or ekult, always
              blame the new recruit with comments such as lack of unfoldment etc!

              For the new recruit, the reason nothing makes sense, I've observed, is thus. The
              HIs bring the new recruit into Paul Twitchell/Darwin Gross ekult; the ekult into
              which they themselved were enrolled. Now this version of ekult promised it had
              the tools for self/god realization in this lifetime etc. However, several MW
              (Mystic World) issues later, the new recruit comes to understand these 'good
              people' lied to them!
              -Postekcon


              In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
              <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hello All,
              > Just thought I'd share some
              > additional comments to what
              > Starshine wrote.
              >
              > starshine917 wrote:
              > Hello prometheus_973:
              > Remember me? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writing to you now….exactly, one
              > year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I didn't plan it like
              > this but somehow it just worked out this way.
              >
              >
              > ME: Yes, it takes awhile for the
              > realization to occur and sink in
              > even after one decides to look
              > for and analyze it via critical
              > thinking while giving HK's/PT's
              > redundant words a litmus test
              > for truthiness.
              >
              >
              > I recently left Eckankar. And, you were right….I read David Lane's paper as
              well as Ford Johnson's "Confessions of a God Seeker" And, for some reason at
              that time I remained in the group tying to focus on the so-called positive side
              of the Eckankar, the hypnotic rederick that goes nowhere while ignoring the
              facts.

              > I then started to take a good look at Harold…looked into his "dark" eyes and
              > listened to his figure of monotone speak and I realized it was very hypnotic,
              > and at the same time very inviting. I wondered who or what was inside of those
              > dark eyes….And they seem to always come as "the light". Yes, the "angel of
              > light".
              >
              >
              > ME: Klemp is no angel of light! He spreads
              > darkness and delusion while denying Eckists
              > their true nature as Soul. He gives (hope),
              > promises (higher plane initiations), and then
              > takes it all away (hope of ever getting beyond
              > the 7th initiation while in this lifetime, unless,
              > one pretends or imagines they are higher
              > via vanity and frustration).
              >
              >
              > I was in a satsang at that time and I found it disturbing more and more that
              his
              > same picture of himself, which by the way never changes, the one and only
              > picture that has to be present at all Eckankar meetings was never questioned
              by
              > it's members. All the books we studied were written by him and only him !!!
              And
              > how some members were "higher" than others depending on their "initiation"
              > number, even if these people knew absolutely nothing except what was written
              in
              > the books of Eckankar. Some of these people seemed to have anger issues too
              > which didn't seem to fit the spiritual portrait of a saint they painted. I
              > started to feel uncomfortable around these people cause they seemed more and
              > more to me like mind-controlled slaves. And, they too could see that I was
              > thinking and starting to pull away because I no longer looked to them without
              > question, with blind authority.
              >
              >
              > ME: Yes, that more youthful looking
              > Official Picture of Klemp's is a vain act,
              > but is never questioned because to do
              > so would get one Black Listed on initiations.
              > Those longtime Eckists who are part
              > of the RESA Hierarchy know what I'm
              > saying. Some H.I.s are fearful/cautious
              > of the spies that report to the RESA and
              > only share certain things (anti-Guideline
              > comments, etc.) around those H.I.s they
              > can trust.
              >
              >
              > BTW- There are some books, that Klemp
              > has approved of, written by non-Eck
              > authors that Eckists can read. However,
              > the Eckist must always focus upon the
              > ECK or Mahanta when reading these
              > books and, thus, give up free, unfettered,
              > thought. Some of these books are
              > recommended to those in leadership
              > positions and are business oriented.
              >
              >
              >
              > So, it wasn't a good mix to say the very least. I finally had it out with one
              of
              > the members and I realized that I already left…In my heart, I choose to follow
              > truth and I also realized that that in Eckankar, I was being deceived. And I
              > realized that I couldn't have it both ways. I had to pick my convictions and
              go
              > with them. After all, why would I go against my own self, and what was in my
              > heart?
              >
              >
              > ME: It's the easy way to place an
              > authority figure on a shelf higher
              > than yourself. Less thinking and
              > effort is involved when blind trust
              > takes over. It's lazy but that's what
              > people do. Look at how we allow
              > the politicians to say and do as
              > they please without taking responsibility.
              > With Klemp, it's always the chela's
              > fault and never his own! He slowed-
              > down initiations in 1985, but doesn't
              > need to explain why these haven't
              > sped up because he answers to
              > nobody else, except, Sugmad right?
              >
              >
              > In Eckankar it is taught to open and follow your heart but yet, if you dare
              open
              > your mind and begin to ask challenging questions, you're in trouble because
              > these people think the Mahanta in Eckankar is above all else and should never
              be
              > questioned, and your heart should be open to "him", the self appointed master,
              > Harold Klemp. Even if the members of Eckankar are not honest with themselves
              > enough to admit it consciously. On a subconscious level, they know better !!!
              >
              > ME: That following your heart
              > thing is more about the Astral
              > Heart Chakra... which is lower
              > than the Third Eye or Tisra Til!
              > Why didn't Klemp at least use
              > the (Astral) Crown Chakra when
              > having Eckists HU? After 30 years
              > and HK still has Eckists HUing
              > and focusing upon the 6th,
              > Third Eye, Astral Chakra versus
              > the 7th Crown Chakra!
              >
              >
              > The shame of it all is that this deception is done in the name of an
              > unconditional open heart to give love, which it is true, a part of GOD's flow
              > but where's the truth ? What happened to that part of GOD ??? I guess it got
              > lost in the sea of love…
              >
              >
              > ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
              > "common language" but it's not
              > quite true. ECK is not a common
              > word and neither is Mahanta.
              > And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
              > to is not the same (4th Plane) God
              > others worship or think he is speaking
              > about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
              > use the word GOD when it's not
              > who or what they are referring
              > to. It's like comparing apples
              > to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
              > start out, and are trained, to be
              > deceptive to non-Eckists. This
              > fact alone makes Eckankar look
              > very cult like. But, why the lie?
              > The "common language" excuse
              > doesn't hold water but Eckists
              > can't question this underhanded
              > practice or else they can have
              > their position taken away and
              > be Black Listed and shunned.
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
              >
              >
              > Hello prometheus_973;
              > Remember me ? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writ
              >
              >
              > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hello Rosemarie,
              > > I am a seeker of Truth as well.
              > > And yes, this article on "The Dark
              > > Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
              > > there is a dark side to Eckankar and
              > > there is also fear.
              > >
              > > I find it interesting that you've
              > > read (and I assume have contemplated
              > > upon) David Lane's research as well as
              > > Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
              > > and have, still, remained an ECKist.
              > >
              > > What happened to your "critical thinking?"
              > > Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
              > > you agree with some of it but not all of
              > > it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
              > > I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
              > > isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
              > > what they believe than any other religion
              > > they've found. Is that the case with you?
              > >
              > > I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
              > > book, threw it away (because of the bad
              > > vibes), and then placed themselves upon
              > > pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
              > > and talk Eckists through their doubts and
              > > concerns.
              > >
              > > You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
              > > not all truth is the same. That's why there
              > > are so many churches. People are social
              > > animals and tend to seek out others with
              > > similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
              > > to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
              > > to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
              > > and a test for Soul.
              > >
              > > I also got the impression that you don't
              > > participate much within the RESA structure.
              > > Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
              > > Do you know that you have to watch what
              > > you say? You've observed and learned that
              > > correct? You do care about being promoted
              > > to that next initiation right?
              > >
              > > Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
              > > take on the subjects that we've been discussing
              > > here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
              > > lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
              > > for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
              > > Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
              > > when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
              > > "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
              > > detectors just for his talk?
              > >
              > > You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues.
              > > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
              > > at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."
              > >
              > > BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
              > > read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?
              > >
              > > Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
              > > the table.
              > >
              > > Prometheus
              > >
              > > rosemarie wrote:
              > > Hi Diana,
              > >
              > > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on
              this
              > path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been
              > to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that
              > honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that
              truth
              > is truth and will always be the truth.
              > >
              > > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we
              > follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching
              > which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's
              remember,
              > we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much
              to
              > bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
              > >
              > > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it
              hurts
              > sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we
              must
              > be brave and remain in truth.
              > >
              > > Thank you for getting back to me.
              > > Rosemarie
              > >
              > >
              > > dianastanley wrote:
              > >
              > Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any
              > direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from
              > personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time. If it is
              > hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew and was
              > their experience I also say.
              > >
              > > Diana Stanley
              > >
              > > Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
              > >
              > > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who
              > are searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
              > findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
              > thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.
              > >
              > I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues.
              > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
              > have allot to bring to the table.
              > >
              > I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
              > called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
              > site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because
              > I'd raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
              > well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
              > complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
              > thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely
              > objective.
              >
              > For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
              > paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
              > >
              > I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
              > within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on
              > the facts.
              > >
              > I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
              > the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
              > belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking.
              > Do you?
              >
            • etznab@aol.com
              One of Paul Twitchell s first reported journey s with Rebazar Tarzs mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme. Check the index section for Ocean
              Message 6 of 24 , Sep 14, 2011
                One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar Tarzs
                mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme. Check the
                index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with the Master.

                The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless region,
                [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called THE FACE OF
                GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying: [Quoting
                >] "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the light of
                God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes could not look
                upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean of Love
                and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return in time."
                (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)

                Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in the House
                of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens. Ye cannot
                go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with my divine
                self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in the divine
                cause!"

                Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the Master, has
                Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting snippet]:

                "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in a
                mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
                attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
                "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and after
                this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul reaches
                the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or the SUGMAD,
                the supreme LORD of all that exists."

                http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html

                Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the description
                slightly:

                "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the Sat Nam in
                a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in all Sat
                Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the three
                remaining known planes.
                "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
                after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam Purusha, or
                lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region of the
                nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first you know
                about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the Divine.
                "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."

                http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html

                Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is illustrated (by
                Paul Twitchell) slightly different.

                "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam Lok.
                Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the end of its
                journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the supreme
                lord of all that exists."

                http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html

                The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok, Alak Lok,
                Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with Ocean of
                Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip mention of
                Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.

                In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master, Introduction to
                Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes similarly, and
                in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain sections from
                The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:

                "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit is
                expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal, Nirala,
                Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
                Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country

                http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html

                "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many words, such
                as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala, Anami, Agam,
                Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar, Parameshwar,
                Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters

                http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html

                Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent from the
                Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR vs.
                Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian Johnson's book,
                The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The Far
                Country, by at least three decades!

                Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word, trademarked
                it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is somehow more
                than a paraphrase.











                -----Original Message-----
                From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Wed, Sep 14, 2011 11:17 am
                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: "The Dark Side of ECKankar" -
                And More!

                 
                Hello Postekcon and All,
                Yes, it was always a conundrum
                trying to recruit new members
                via "spreading the word" i.e.
                manure. However, we had
                structured public workshops
                and/or book discussions with
                Guidelines spelling out what
                to do and how to do it.

                Some RESA areas did experimental
                programs (special projects),
                and if successful, the ESC
                tweaked them to be used
                elsewhere. It was all quite
                time consuming and frustrating.
                Local areas and the H.I.s were
                always judged on the numbers
                of newbies showing up for
                these events. Most people
                were repeats and were into
                metaphysics or were the friends,
                coworkers or relatives of Eckists.

                I recall that one local area
                of a neighboring state was
                having a lot of success via
                large turnouts of newbies.
                They probably had a couple
                of hundred newbies in one
                year and that was practically
                unheard of in Eckankar. Several
                of these H.I.s were very proud
                of the "high counts" they turned
                in to the ESC. However, out
                of all of those newbies only
                about ten joined Eckankar
                and only, maybe, one or two
                remained after a year. These,
                I doubt, remained for the
                long haul. Let's face it, it's
                a dead end religion where
                one pretends, i.e. imagines
                or visualizes, their desires
                for "spiritual" progress and
                "knowingness" or "realization"
                of varying degrees. The initiation
                game is the main, underlying,
                theme. The problem, for Eckists,
                is that dangling carrot when
                initiations have been "slowed-
                down" for 25 years and the
                highest most can go is the 7th!

                Those 7th initiates who had
                hit the glass ceiling 20 or more
                years ago have rationalized
                it all away. They only stay in
                EK because they have some
                prestige, a lot of Eck friends,
                and have paid their dues with
                a lot of vahana and satsang
                work over the years. Plus, they've
                been taught to "imagine" and
                visualize, therefore, all they
                need to do is pretend they are
                8ths (on the inner). Most pretend
                they are higher than 8ths. After
                all, Darwin skipped or sped up
                initiations even for Klemp. So,
                if it was valid, then, why not
                today? Actually, just about all
                Eckists pretent they are "higher"
                than the number printed on
                their Membership Cards.

                Anyway, the reason why
                the EK Youth effort has
                gained some momentum
                over the years is because
                it's easier to brainwash a
                controlled subject. However,
                that doesn't always work,
                either, when these young
                Eckists see their parents
                act so nutty and non-Eck
                like. Plus, reclusive Klemp
                puts a lot of pressure upon
                them to do the vahana/
                missionary thing when
                it's tough enough getting
                through school and those
                teen years. Klemp doesn't
                have any empathy. He was
                in a Lutheran all boys high
                school and never learned
                about dating until he got
                out of the Air Force (1968)
                when he was 26 years old!

                One has to wonder why
                Klemp doesn't do his fair
                share of public vahana work.
                Why doesn't he have a radio
                show or do and say something
                in real time? The EK Seminars
                don't count. That's for maybe
                a hundred newbies who aren't
                all that "new" and for his brain-
                washed followers.

                In theory, Klemp's real "spiritual"
                mission is to help his followers
                achieve God Realization. However,
                what Initiation level is the indicator
                that this has been accomplished?

                According to Book 2, CH. 12 of
                the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad (Eckankar's
                Holy Book) their God, Sugmad,
                resides on the 10th Plane, however,
                Eckists must have the 11th Initiation
                for "entrance into the Sugmad world,
                which is the highest world of God,
                if any, may enter."

                Of course, that's not quite true either
                since there're the 12th, 13th, and 14th
                initiations after this one. This, then,
                is where one (supposedly) enters into
                Soul's true home called The Ocean of
                love and Mercy. However, one can see
                why EK Higher initiates (5-7) become
                internally frustrated since, except for
                a handful of people, they will never
                even see the 8th initiation (in this
                lifetime). That's the Catch/Con that
                Twitchell invented and Klemp inherited.
                Hope via promises for a better afterlife
                while imagining day-to-day miracles
                and dreaming about one's pre-programmed
                expectations. It's how any and every
                religion works.

                Prometheus

                "postekcon" wrote:
                Re
                >>>
                ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                "common language" but it's not
                quite true. ECK is not a common
                word and neither is Mahanta.
                And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                others worship or think he is speaking
                about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                use the word GOD when it's not
                who or what they are referring
                to. It's like comparing apples
                to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                start out, and are trained, to be
                deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                fact alone makes Eckankar look
                very cult like. But, why the lie?
                The "common language" excuse
                doesn't hold water but Eckists
                can't question this underhanded
                practice or else they can have
                their position taken away and
                can be Black Listed and shunned.
                >>>

                For the past ten years, I have observed this pattern.

                Hard working HIs (50-70yrs plus) busy putting on Intro Talks,
                occasionally
                enrolling a new recruit to ekult.

                However, within a year or two, the new recruit leaves ekult as nothing
                makes
                sense! Of course, the HIs, unable to look at either themselves or
                ekult, always
                blame the new recruit with comments such as lack of unfoldment etc!

                For the new recruit, the reason nothing makes sense, I've observed, is
                thus. The
                HIs bring the new recruit into Paul Twitchell/Darwin Gross ekult; the
                ekult into
                which they themselved were enrolled. Now this version of ekult promised
                it had
                the tools for self/god realization in this lifetime etc. However,
                several MW
                (Mystic World) issues later, the new recruit comes to understand these
                'good
                people' lied to them!
                -Postekcon

                In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hello All,
                > Just thought I'd share some
                > additional comments to what
                > Starshine wrote.
                >
                > starshine917 wrote:
                > Hello prometheus_973:
                > Remember me? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writing to you
                now….exactly, one
                > year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I didn't
                plan it like
                > this but somehow it just worked out this way.
                >
                >
                > ME: Yes, it takes awhile for the
                > realization to occur and sink in
                > even after one decides to look
                > for and analyze it via critical
                > thinking while giving HK's/PT's
                > redundant words a litmus test
                > for truthiness.
                >
                >
                > I recently left Eckankar. And, you were right….I read David Lane's
                paper as
                well as Ford Johnson's "Confessions of a God Seeker" And, for some
                reason at
                that time I remained in the group tying to focus on the so-called
                positive side
                of the Eckankar, the hypnotic rederick that goes nowhere while ignoring
                the
                facts.

                > I then started to take a good look at Harold…looked into his
                "dark" eyes and
                > listened to his figure of monotone speak and I realized it was
                very hypnotic,
                > and at the same time very inviting. I wondered who or what was
                inside of those
                > dark eyes….And they seem to always come as "the light". Yes, the
                "angel of
                > light".
                >
                >
                > ME: Klemp is no angel of light! He spreads
                > darkness and delusion while denying Eckists
                > their true nature as Soul. He gives (hope),
                > promises (higher plane initiations), and then
                > takes it all away (hope of ever getting beyond
                > the 7th initiation while in this lifetime, unless,
                > one pretends or imagines they are higher
                > via vanity and frustration).
                >
                >
                > I was in a satsang at that time and I found it disturbing more and
                more that
                his
                > same picture of himself, which by the way never changes, the one
                and only
                > picture that has to be present at all Eckankar meetings was never
                questioned
                by
                > it's members. All the books we studied were written by him and
                only him !!!
                And
                > how some members were "higher" than others depending on their
                "initiation"
                > number, even if these people knew absolutely nothing except what
                was written
                in
                > the books of Eckankar. Some of these people seemed to have anger
                issues too
                > which didn't seem to fit the spiritual portrait of a saint they
                painted. I
                > started to feel uncomfortable around these people cause they
                seemed more and
                > more to me like mind-controlled slaves. And, they too could see
                that I was
                > thinking and starting to pull away because I no longer looked to
                them without
                > question, with blind authority.
                >
                >
                > ME: Yes, that more youthful looking
                > Official Picture of Klemp's is a vain act,
                > but is never questioned because to do
                > so would get one Black Listed on initiations.
                > Those longtime Eckists who are part
                > of the RESA Hierarchy know what I'm
                > saying. Some H.I.s are fearful/cautious
                > of the spies that report to the RESA and
                > only share certain things (anti-Guideline
                > comments, etc.) around those H.I.s they
                > can trust.
                >
                >
                > BTW- There are some books, that Klemp
                > has approved of, written by non-Eck
                > authors that Eckists can read. However,
                > the Eckist must always focus upon the
                > ECK or Mahanta when reading these
                > books and, thus, give up free, unfettered,
                > thought. Some of these books are
                > recommended to those in leadership
                > positions and are business oriented.
                >
                >
                >
                > So, it wasn't a good mix to say the very least. I finally had it
                out with one
                of
                > the members and I realized that I already left…In my heart, I
                choose to follow
                > truth and I also realized that that in Eckankar, I was being
                deceived. And I
                > realized that I couldn't have it both ways. I had to pick my
                convictions and
                go
                > with them. After all, why would I go against my own self, and what
                was in my
                > heart?
                >
                >
                > ME: It's the easy way to place an
                > authority figure on a shelf higher
                > than yourself. Less thinking and
                > effort is involved when blind trust
                > takes over. It's lazy but that's what
                > people do. Look at how we allow
                > the politicians to say and do as
                > they please without taking responsibility.
                > With Klemp, it's always the chela's
                > fault and never his own! He slowed-
                > down initiations in 1985, but doesn't
                > need to explain why these haven't
                > sped up because he answers to
                > nobody else, except, Sugmad right?
                >
                >
                > In Eckankar it is taught to open and follow your heart but yet, if
                you dare
                open
                > your mind and begin to ask challenging questions, you're in
                trouble because
                > these people think the Mahanta in Eckankar is above all else and
                should never
                be
                > questioned, and your heart should be open to "him", the self
                appointed master,
                > Harold Klemp. Even if the members of Eckankar are not honest with
                themselves
                > enough to admit it consciously. On a subconscious level, they know
                better !!!
                >
                > ME: That following your heart
                > thing is more about the Astral
                > Heart Chakra... which is lower
                > than the Third Eye or Tisra Til!
                > Why didn't Klemp at least use
                > the (Astral) Crown Chakra when
                > having Eckists HU? After 30 years
                > and HK still has Eckists HUing
                > and focusing upon the 6th,
                > Third Eye, Astral Chakra versus
                > the 7th Crown Chakra!
                >
                >
                > The shame of it all is that this deception is done in the name of
                an
                > unconditional open heart to give love, which it is true, a part of
                GOD's flow
                > but where's the truth ? What happened to that part of GOD ??? I
                guess it got
                > lost in the sea of love…
                >
                >
                > ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                > "common language" but it's not
                > quite true. ECK is not a common
                > word and neither is Mahanta.
                > And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                > to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                > others worship or think he is speaking
                > about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                > use the word GOD when it's not
                > who or what they are referring
                > to. It's like comparing apples
                > to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                > start out, and are trained, to be
                > deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                > fact alone makes Eckankar look
                > very cult like. But, why the lie?
                > The "common language" excuse
                > doesn't hold water but Eckists
                > can't question this underhanded
                > practice or else they can have
                > their position taken away and
                > be Black Listed and shunned.
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
                >
                >
                > Hello prometheus_973;
                > Remember me ? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writ
                >
                >
                > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Hello Rosemarie,
                > > I am a seeker of Truth as well.
                > > And yes, this article on "The Dark
                > > Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
                > > there is a dark side to Eckankar and
                > > there is also fear.
                > >
                > > I find it interesting that you've
                > > read (and I assume have contemplated
                > > upon) David Lane's research as well as
                > > Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
                > > and have, still, remained an ECKist.
                > >
                > > What happened to your "critical thinking?"
                > > Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
                > > you agree with some of it but not all of
                > > it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
                > > I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
                > > isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
                > > what they believe than any other religion
                > > they've found. Is that the case with you?
                > >
                > > I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
                > > book, threw it away (because of the bad
                > > vibes), and then placed themselves upon
                > > pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
                > > and talk Eckists through their doubts and
                > > concerns.
                > >
                > > You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
                > > not all truth is the same. That's why there
                > > are so many churches. People are social
                > > animals and tend to seek out others with
                > > similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
                > > to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
                > > to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
                > > and a test for Soul.
                > >
                > > I also got the impression that you don't
                > > participate much within the RESA structure.
                > > Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
                > > Do you know that you have to watch what
                > > you say? You've observed and learned that
                > > correct? You do care about being promoted
                > > to that next initiation right?
                > >
                > > Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
                > > take on the subjects that we've been discussing
                > > here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
                > > lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
                > > for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
                > > Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
                > > when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
                > > "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
                > > detectors just for his talk?
                > >
                > > You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                > > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
                > > at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."
                > >
                > > BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
                > > read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?
                > >
                > > Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
                > > the table.
                > >
                > > Prometheus
                > >
                > > rosemarie wrote:
                > > Hi Diana,
                > >
                > > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar
                and while on
                this
                > path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as
                well. I've been
                > to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I
                agree that
                > honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also
                understand that
                truth
                > is truth and will always be the truth.
                > >
                > > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless
                of what path we
                > follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are
                all searching
                > which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and
                let's
                remember,
                > we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We
                have so much
                to
                > bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and
                experience.
                > >
                > > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it
                even if it
                hurts
                > sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back
                to GOD, we
                must
                > be brave and remain in truth.
                > >
                > > Thank you for getting back to me.
                > > Rosemarie
                > >
                > >
                > > dianastanley wrote:
                > >
                > Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you
                have any
                > direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it
                is from
                > personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time.
                If it is
                > hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew
                and was
                > their experience I also say.
                > >
                > > Diana Stanley
                > >
                > > Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
                > >
                > > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for
                those of you who
                > are searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for
                sharing your
                > findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light"
                of critical
                > thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.
                > >
                > I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar
                has issues.
                > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this
                site, so we
                > have allot to bring to the table.
                > >
                > I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used
                in this paper
                > called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links"
                in this web
                > site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of
                challenge because
                > I'd raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this
                paper as
                > well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be
                painted with
                > complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of
                critical
                > thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being
                completely
                > objective.
                >
                > For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack
                ECKankar in this
                > paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they
                originated.
                > >
                > I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure
                is overdo
                > within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is
                based on
                > the facts.
                > >
                > I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't
                think
                > the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within
                one religious
                > belief system and exchange them for another in the name of
                critical thinking.
                > Do you?
                >
              • prometheus_973
                Hello Etznab and All, It is interesting that Twitchell has his Rebazar character (the Master who initiated him) indicate that there were 8 Planes just as
                Message 7 of 24 , Sep 16, 2011
                  Hello Etznab and All,
                  It is interesting that Twitchell
                  has his Rebazar character (the
                  "Master" who initiated him)
                  indicate that there were 8 Planes
                  just as Radhasomi and Ruhani
                  Satsang have listed in "The Path
                  of the Masters." Since Kirpal
                  Singh, of Ruhani Satsang, was
                  Paul's real life Master for ten years
                  it's no wonder that this dogma was
                  influential in the design of Eckankar.

                  Of course, Twitchell was constantly
                  tweaking, revising, and masking his
                  religious con as time went by.

                  The Anami Lok (10th Plane where
                  "Sugmad" resides) didn't appear until
                  later. Did Rebazar simply forget to
                  mention this as well as the "Mahanta?"
                  Did RT think that Paul needed to be
                  spoon-fed and wasn't ready for this
                  advanced "spiritual" info? No, not really.
                  According to Twitchell he had been
                  given the 12th and "final initiation"
                  (to become LEM) back in 1951 by
                  Rebazar while on his "2nd" visit to
                  India. See, the timeline is off for this
                  ekplanation to be taken seriously as
                  well.

                  Therefore, there is no rational excuse
                  for these inconsistencies except to
                  admit that the "rascal" Twitchell was,
                  once again, "exaggerating" and "twisting
                  facts" as even Klemp has described
                  and said of him. Klemp, years ago,
                  had to admit that Twitchell was a self-
                  promoter and did or said whatever
                  he needed to do ("By Any Means Necessary")
                  in order to get Eckankar off the ground.

                  This is why Klemp, at first, had a
                  difficult job of explaining Twitchell's
                  inconsistencies and needed to keep
                  Eckists confused, busy, and off-balance.
                  Now, Eckists are so brainwashed that
                  Klemp can say whatever in his simple
                  minded redundant versions of feel-good
                  New Age spirituality.


                  Prometheus



                  etznab wrote:

                  One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar Tarzs
                  mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme. Check the
                  index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with the Master.

                  The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless region,
                  [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called THE FACE OF
                  GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying: [Quoting]
                  "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the light of
                  God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes could not look
                  upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean of Love
                  and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return in time."
                  (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)

                  Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in the House
                  of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens. Ye cannot
                  go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with my divine
                  self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in the divine
                  cause!"

                  Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the Master, has
                  Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting snippet]:

                  "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in a
                  mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
                  attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
                  "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and after
                  this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul reaches
                  the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or the SUGMAD,
                  the supreme LORD of all that exists."

                  http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html

                  Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the description
                  slightly:

                  "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the Sat Nam in
                  a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in all Sat
                  Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the three
                  remaining known planes.

                  "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
                  after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam Purusha, or
                  lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region of the
                  nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first you know
                  about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the Divine.

                  "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."

                  http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html

                  Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is illustrated (by
                  Paul Twitchell) slightly different.

                  "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam Lok.
                  Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the end of its
                  journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the supreme
                  lord of all that exists."

                  http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html

                  The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok, Alak Lok,
                  Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with Ocean of
                  Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip mention of
                  Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.

                  In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master, Introduction to
                  Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes similarly, and
                  in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain sections from
                  The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:

                  "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit is
                  expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal, Nirala,
                  Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
                  Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country

                  http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html

                  "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many words, such
                  as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala, Anami, Agam,
                  Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar, Parameshwar,
                  Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters

                  http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html

                  Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent from the
                  Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR vs.
                  Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian Johnson's book,
                  The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The Far
                  Country, by at least three decades!

                  Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word, trademarked
                  it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is somehow more
                  than a paraphrase.
                • etznab18
                  Almost didn t see this response because the e-mail bounced. Umm ... about the self-promotion, whatever, people can read about some of the history here.
                  Message 8 of 24 , Sep 16, 2011
                    Almost didn't see this response because the e-mail bounced.

                    Umm ... about the self-promotion, whatever, people can read about some of the history here.

                    http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html

                    Check out 4th paragraph of article entitled: Paul's Seal of Approval.

                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hello Etznab and All,
                    > It is interesting that Twitchell
                    > has his Rebazar character (the
                    > "Master" who initiated him)
                    > indicate that there were 8 Planes
                    > just as Radhasomi and Ruhani
                    > Satsang have listed in "The Path
                    > of the Masters." Since Kirpal
                    > Singh, of Ruhani Satsang, was
                    > Paul's real life Master for ten years
                    > it's no wonder that this dogma was
                    > influential in the design of Eckankar.
                    >
                    > Of course, Twitchell was constantly
                    > tweaking, revising, and masking his
                    > religious con as time went by.
                    >
                    > The Anami Lok (10th Plane where
                    > "Sugmad" resides) didn't appear until
                    > later. Did Rebazar simply forget to
                    > mention this as well as the "Mahanta?"
                    > Did RT think that Paul needed to be
                    > spoon-fed and wasn't ready for this
                    > advanced "spiritual" info? No, not really.
                    > According to Twitchell he had been
                    > given the 12th and "final initiation"
                    > (to become LEM) back in 1951 by
                    > Rebazar while on his "2nd" visit to
                    > India. See, the timeline is off for this
                    > ekplanation to be taken seriously as
                    > well.
                    >
                    > Therefore, there is no rational excuse
                    > for these inconsistencies except to
                    > admit that the "rascal" Twitchell was,
                    > once again, "exaggerating" and "twisting
                    > facts" as even Klemp has described
                    > and said of him. Klemp, years ago,
                    > had to admit that Twitchell was a self-
                    > promoter and did or said whatever
                    > he needed to do ("By Any Means Necessary")
                    > in order to get Eckankar off the ground.
                    >
                    > This is why Klemp, at first, had a
                    > difficult job of explaining Twitchell's
                    > inconsistencies and needed to keep
                    > Eckists confused, busy, and off-balance.
                    > Now, Eckists are so brainwashed that
                    > Klemp can say whatever in his simple
                    > minded redundant versions of feel-good
                    > New Age spirituality.
                    >
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > etznab wrote:
                    >
                    > One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar Tarzs
                    > mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme. Check the
                    > index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with the Master.
                    >
                    > The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless region,
                    > [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called THE FACE OF
                    > GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying: [Quoting]
                    > "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the light of
                    > God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes could not look
                    > upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean of Love
                    > and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return in time."
                    > (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)
                    >
                    > Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in the House
                    > of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens. Ye cannot
                    > go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with my divine
                    > self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in the divine
                    > cause!"
                    >
                    > Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the Master, has
                    > Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting snippet]:
                    >
                    > "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in a
                    > mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
                    > attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
                    > "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and after
                    > this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul reaches
                    > the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or the SUGMAD,
                    > the supreme LORD of all that exists."
                    >
                    > http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html
                    >
                    > Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the description
                    > slightly:
                    >
                    > "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the Sat Nam in
                    > a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in all Sat
                    > Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the three
                    > remaining known planes.
                    >
                    > "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
                    > after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam Purusha, or
                    > lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region of the
                    > nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first you know
                    > about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the Divine.
                    >
                    > "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."
                    >
                    > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                    >
                    > Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is illustrated (by
                    > Paul Twitchell) slightly different.
                    >
                    > "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam Lok.
                    > Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the end of its
                    > journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the supreme
                    > lord of all that exists."
                    >
                    > http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html
                    >
                    > The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok, Alak Lok,
                    > Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with Ocean of
                    > Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip mention of
                    > Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.
                    >
                    > In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master, Introduction to
                    > Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes similarly, and
                    > in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain sections from
                    > The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:
                    >
                    > "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit is
                    > expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal, Nirala,
                    > Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
                    > Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country
                    >
                    > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                    >
                    > "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many words, such
                    > as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala, Anami, Agam,
                    > Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar, Parameshwar,
                    > Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters
                    >
                    > http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html
                    >
                    > Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent from the
                    > Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR vs.
                    > Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian Johnson's book,
                    > The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The Far
                    > Country, by at least three decades!
                    >
                    > Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word, trademarked
                    > it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is somehow more
                    > than a paraphrase.
                    >
                  • prometheus_973
                    Hello Etznab and All, This tells how Paul Twitchell was His Own Drum Beater: http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html What s interesting is that at
                    Message 9 of 24 , Sep 17, 2011
                      Hello Etznab and All,
                      This tells how Paul Twitchell
                      was His Own Drum Beater:

                      http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html

                      What's interesting is that at age 27 (1935)
                      Twitchell was saying that he had been
                      to India (supposedly at age 15 to meet
                      Rebazar for the first time, DOBTLEM).
                      However, Klemp points out that Twitchell
                      was doing another self-promotion, and
                      was lying in order to get into Who's Who
                      in Kentucky. Klemp states that Twitchell
                      had never been all that far from home
                      at age 27. Klemp seems to have stepped
                      into a big pile of Twits mess. HK's
                      statement contradicts what Twitchell
                      revealed in Difficulties of Becoming the
                      Living ECK Master circa July, 1971. This
                      1971 date is, supposedly, long after Twitchell
                      (the Mahanta) was was no longer "exaggerating"
                      and "twisting facts." However, as Klemp
                      has pointed out Twitchell was still lying
                      and promoting his con up until his untimely
                      and death in September, 1971.

                      Prometheus

                      etznab@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Almost didn't see this response because the e-mail bounced.
                      >
                      > Umm ... about the self-promotion, whatever, people can read about some of the history here.
                      >
                      > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html
                      >
                      > Check out 4th paragraph of article entitled: Paul's Seal of Approval.
                      >
                      > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hello Etznab and All,
                      > > It is interesting that Twitchell
                      > > has his Rebazar character (the
                      > > "Master" who initiated him)
                      > > indicate that there were 8 Planes
                      > > just as Radhasomi and Ruhani
                      > > Satsang have listed in "The Path
                      > > of the Masters." Since Kirpal
                      > > Singh, of Ruhani Satsang, was
                      > > Paul's real life Master for ten years
                      > > it's no wonder that this dogma was
                      > > influential in the design of Eckankar.
                      > >
                      > > Of course, Twitchell was constantly
                      > > tweaking, revising, and masking his
                      > > religious con as time went by.
                      > >
                      > > The Anami Lok (10th Plane where
                      > > "Sugmad" resides) didn't appear until
                      > > later. Did Rebazar simply forget to
                      > > mention this as well as the "Mahanta?"
                      > > Did RT think that Paul needed to be
                      > > spoon-fed and wasn't ready for this
                      > > advanced "spiritual" info? No, not really.
                      > > According to Twitchell he had been
                      > > given the 12th and "final initiation"
                      > > (to become LEM) back in 1951 by
                      > > Rebazar while on his "2nd" visit to
                      > > India. See, the timeline is off for this
                      > > ekplanation to be taken seriously as
                      > > well.
                      > >
                      > > Therefore, there is no rational excuse
                      > > for these inconsistencies except to
                      > > admit that the "rascal" Twitchell was,
                      > > once again, "exaggerating" and "twisting
                      > > facts" as even Klemp has described
                      > > and said of him. Klemp, years ago,
                      > > had to admit that Twitchell was a self-
                      > > promoter and did or said whatever
                      > > he needed to do ("By Any Means Necessary")
                      > > in order to get Eckankar off the ground.
                      > >
                      > > This is why Klemp, at first, had a
                      > > difficult job of explaining Twitchell's
                      > > inconsistencies and needed to keep
                      > > Eckists confused, busy, and off-balance.
                      > > Now, Eckists are so brainwashed that
                      > > Klemp can say whatever in his simple
                      > > minded redundant versions of feel-good
                      > > New Age spirituality.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Prometheus
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > etznab wrote:
                      > >
                      > > One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar Tarzs
                      > > mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme. Check the
                      > > index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with the Master.
                      > >
                      > > The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless region,
                      > > [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called THE FACE OF
                      > > GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying: [Quoting]
                      > > "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the light of
                      > > God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes could not look
                      > > upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean of Love
                      > > and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return in time."
                      > > (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)
                      > >
                      > > Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in the House
                      > > of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens. Ye cannot
                      > > go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with my divine
                      > > self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in the divine
                      > > cause!"
                      > >
                      > > Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the Master, has
                      > > Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting snippet]:
                      > >
                      > > "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in a
                      > > mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
                      > > attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
                      > > "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and after
                      > > this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul reaches
                      > > the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or the SUGMAD,
                      > > the supreme LORD of all that exists."
                      > >
                      > > http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html
                      > >
                      > > Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the description
                      > > slightly:
                      > >
                      > > "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the Sat Nam in
                      > > a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in all Sat
                      > > Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the three
                      > > remaining known planes.
                      > >
                      > > "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
                      > > after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam Purusha, or
                      > > lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region of the
                      > > nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first you know
                      > > about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the Divine.
                      > >
                      > > "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."
                      > >
                      > > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                      > >
                      > > Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is illustrated (by
                      > > Paul Twitchell) slightly different.
                      > >
                      > > "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam Lok.
                      > > Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the end of its
                      > > journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the supreme
                      > > lord of all that exists."
                      > >
                      > > http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html
                      > >
                      > > The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok, Alak Lok,
                      > > Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with Ocean of
                      > > Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip mention of
                      > > Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.
                      > >
                      > > In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master, Introduction to
                      > > Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes similarly, and
                      > > in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain sections from
                      > > The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:
                      > >
                      > > "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit is
                      > > expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal, Nirala,
                      > > Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
                      > > Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country
                      > >
                      > > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                      > >
                      > > "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many words, such
                      > > as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala, Anami, Agam,
                      > > Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar, Parameshwar,
                      > > Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters
                      > >
                      > > http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html
                      > >
                      > > Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent from the
                      > > Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR vs.
                      > > Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian Johnson's book,
                      > > The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The Far
                      > > Country, by at least three decades!
                      > >
                      > > Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word, trademarked
                      > > it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is somehow more
                      > > than a paraphrase.
                      > >
                      >
                    • etznab@aol.com
                      I think a lot of people can overlook this stuff, thinking that whatever Paul Twitchell said/wrote must be the truth. Some people just might not care. Well,
                      Message 10 of 24 , Sep 17, 2011
                        I think a lot of people can overlook this stuff, thinking that whatever
                        Paul Twitchell said/wrote must be the truth. Some people just might not
                        care. Well, it's reasonable to suspect this talent - for promotion,
                        even when it means making things up, stretching the truth, or just
                        plain spinning lies - was used to "create" the Eckankar mythos.

                        myth

                        1830, from Gk. mythos "speech, thought, story, myth," of unknown origin.

                        Myths are "stories about divine beings, generally arranged in a
                        coherent system; they are revered as true and sacred; they are endorsed
                        by rulers and priests; and closely linked to religion. Once this link
                        is broken, and the actors in the story are not regarded as gods but as
                        human heroes, giants or fairies, it is no longer a myth but a folktale.
                        Where the central actor is divine but the story is trivial ... the
                        result is religious legend, not myth." [J. Simpson & S. Roud,
                        "Dictionary of English Folklore," Oxford, 2000, p.254]

                        General sense of "untrue story, rumor" is from 1840.

                        http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=mythos&searchmode=none

                        In other words, amid all the compilations and recycled material, etc.,
                        context has been changed (in various places) when it comes to source. I
                        wonder, could Paul Twitchell have created "Eckankar" and at the same
                        time given the source for all of his material? I noticed Kirpal Singh
                        and others were very good at citing references and sharing what
                        quote/saying came from who. So if Paul Twitchell ever chose to use
                        passages and paragraphs from books, Did he always feel obligated to
                        provide that information?

                        As a promoter, I suspect the person wants to give credit to whatever
                        they're promoting and not give more credit to "other products" instead.
                        It makes sense (to me) that Paul Twitchell would "paint the name
                        Eckankar" over so much material he had read (in so many words). Not
                        only this, but it even appears probable that Paul Twitchell took
                        liberty to respell and redefine words according to fit them in a new,
                        and growing, Eckankar philosophy. Not only words, but names too!

                        How extensive the promotion and PR campaign that created contemporary
                        Eckankar teaching? In so many ways, it seems this is the part that
                        doesn't agree with people. Not unless they knew from the beginning that
                        information was not necessarily accurate and in some places embellished.

                        embellish

                        mid-14c., "to render beautiful," from O.Fr. embelliss-, stem of
                        embellir "make beautiful, ornament," from em- (see en- (1)) + bel
                        "beautiful," from L. bellus (see bene-). Meaning "dress up (a
                        narration) with fictitious matter" is from mid-15c. Related:
                        Embellished; embellishing.

                        http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=embellished&searchmode=none

                        Reading through early Eckankar books I think common sense might tell a
                        person that parts of the material was embellished. At the same time I
                        also think people could naturally so much want the material to be true
                        that they allow imagination to "make it so" and overrule common sense.

                        Ever observe what happens when you're part of a group where countless
                        individuals believe in things - through imagination - that aren't
                        necessarily true? I mean, when you're one of the unbelievers and part
                        of the minority who question whether so many imagined things are true?


                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                        <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Sat, Sep 17, 2011 2:14 am
                        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: "The Dark Side of ECKankar" -
                        And More!

                         
                        Hello Etznab and All,
                        This tells how Paul Twitchell
                        was His Own Drum Beater:

                        http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html

                        What's interesting is that at age 27 (1935)
                        Twitchell was saying that he had been
                        to India (supposedly at age 15 to meet
                        Rebazar for the first time, DOBTLEM).
                        However, Klemp points out that Twitchell
                        was doing another self-promotion, and
                        was lying in order to get into Who's Who
                        in Kentucky. Klemp states that Twitchell
                        had never been all that far from home
                        at age 27. Klemp seems to have stepped
                        into a big pile of Twits mess. HK's
                        statement contradicts what Twitchell
                        revealed in Difficulties of Becoming the
                        Living ECK Master circa July, 1971. This
                        1971 date is, supposedly, long after Twitchell
                        (the Mahanta) was was no longer "exaggerating"
                        and "twisting facts." However, as Klemp
                        has pointed out Twitchell was still lying
                        and promoting his con up until his untimely
                        and death in September, 1971.

                        Prometheus

                        etznab@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Almost didn't see this response because the e-mail bounced.
                        >
                        > Umm ... about the self-promotion, whatever, people can read about
                        some of the history here.
                        >
                        > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html
                        >
                        > Check out 4th paragraph of article entitled: Paul's Seal of
                        Approval.
                        >
                        > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                        "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Hello Etznab and All,
                        > > It is interesting that Twitchell
                        > > has his Rebazar character (the
                        > > "Master" who initiated him)
                        > > indicate that there were 8 Planes
                        > > just as Radhasomi and Ruhani
                        > > Satsang have listed in "The Path
                        > > of the Masters." Since Kirpal
                        > > Singh, of Ruhani Satsang, was
                        > > Paul's real life Master for ten years
                        > > it's no wonder that this dogma was
                        > > influential in the design of Eckankar.
                        > >
                        > > Of course, Twitchell was constantly
                        > > tweaking, revising, and masking his
                        > > religious con as time went by.
                        > >
                        > > The Anami Lok (10th Plane where
                        > > "Sugmad" resides) didn't appear until
                        > > later. Did Rebazar simply forget to
                        > > mention this as well as the "Mahanta?"
                        > > Did RT think that Paul needed to be
                        > > spoon-fed and wasn't ready for this
                        > > advanced "spiritual" info? No, not really.
                        > > According to Twitchell he had been
                        > > given the 12th and "final initiation"
                        > > (to become LEM) back in 1951 by
                        > > Rebazar while on his "2nd" visit to
                        > > India. See, the timeline is off for this
                        > > ekplanation to be taken seriously as
                        > > well.
                        > >
                        > > Therefore, there is no rational excuse
                        > > for these inconsistencies except to
                        > > admit that the "rascal" Twitchell was,
                        > > once again, "exaggerating" and "twisting
                        > > facts" as even Klemp has described
                        > > and said of him. Klemp, years ago,
                        > > had to admit that Twitchell was a self-
                        > > promoter and did or said whatever
                        > > he needed to do ("By Any Means Necessary")
                        > > in order to get Eckankar off the ground.
                        > >
                        > > This is why Klemp, at first, had a
                        > > difficult job of explaining Twitchell's
                        > > inconsistencies and needed to keep
                        > > Eckists confused, busy, and off-balance.
                        > > Now, Eckists are so brainwashed that
                        > > Klemp can say whatever in his simple
                        > > minded redundant versions of feel-good
                        > > New Age spirituality.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Prometheus
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > etznab wrote:
                        > >
                        > > One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar
                        Tarzs
                        > > mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme.
                        Check the
                        > > index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with
                        the Master.
                        > >
                        > > The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless
                        region,
                        > > [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called
                        THE FACE OF
                        > > GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying:
                        [Quoting]
                        > > "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the
                        light of
                        > > God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes
                        could not look
                        > > upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean
                        of Love
                        > > and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return
                        in time."
                        > > (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)
                        > >
                        > > Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in
                        the House
                        > > of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens.
                        Ye cannot
                        > > go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with
                        my divine
                        > > self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in
                        the divine
                        > > cause!"
                        > >
                        > > Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the
                        Master, has
                        > > Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting
                        snippet]:
                        > >
                        > > "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in
                        a
                        > > mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
                        > > attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
                        > > "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
                        after
                        > > this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul
                        reaches
                        > > the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or
                        the SUGMAD,
                        > > the supreme LORD of all that exists."
                        > >
                        > > http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html
                        > >
                        > > Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the
                        description
                        > > slightly:
                        > >
                        > > "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the
                        Sat Nam in
                        > > a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in
                        all Sat
                        > > Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the
                        three
                        > > remaining known planes.
                        > >
                        > > "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha,
                        and
                        > > after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam
                        Purusha, or
                        > > lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region
                        of the
                        > > nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first
                        you know
                        > > about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the
                        Divine.
                        > >
                        > > "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."
                        > >
                        > > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                        > >
                        > > Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is
                        illustrated (by
                        > > Paul Twitchell) slightly different.
                        > >
                        > > "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam
                        Lok.
                        > > Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the
                        end of its
                        > > journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the
                        supreme
                        > > lord of all that exists."
                        > >
                        > > http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html
                        > >
                        > > The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok,
                        Alak Lok,
                        > > Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with
                        Ocean of
                        > > Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip
                        mention of
                        > > Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.
                        > >
                        > > In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master,
                        Introduction to
                        > > Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes
                        similarly, and
                        > > in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain
                        sections from
                        > > The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:
                        > >
                        > > "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit
                        is
                        > > expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal,
                        Nirala,
                        > > Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
                        > > Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country
                        > >
                        > > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                        > >
                        > > "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many
                        words, such
                        > > as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala,
                        Anami, Agam,
                        > > Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar,
                        Parameshwar,
                        > > Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters
                        > >
                        > > http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html
                        > >
                        > > Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent
                        from the
                        > > Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR
                        vs.
                        > > Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian
                        Johnson's book,
                        > > The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The
                        Far
                        > > Country, by at least three decades!
                        > >
                        > > Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word,
                        trademarked
                        > > it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is
                        somehow more
                        > > than a paraphrase.
                        > >
                        >
                      • prometheus_973
                        Hello Etznab and All, It s true that most Eckists have turned a blind eye towards their religion. However, it s done via Klemp s subtle and not so subtle
                        Message 11 of 24 , Sep 17, 2011
                          Hello Etznab and All,
                          It's true that most Eckists have
                          turned a blind eye towards their
                          religion. However, it's done via
                          Klemp's subtle and not so subtle
                          intimidation tactics such as:

                          Going to the "inner" to have
                          one's questions answered...
                          this is what the more "advanced"
                          and "enlightened" Eckists do.

                          Using the Buddha quote of, "Is
                          it true, is it necessary, is it kind"
                          this I ask myself before I speak
                          my mind.

                          HK writing articles and giving
                          talks on the negativity of gossip
                          and how it hinders one's "spiritual"
                          growth.

                          Also, there's the unspoken knowledge
                          that those who ask too many questions,
                          especially "wrong" questions, will get
                          Eckists Black Listed on initiations or
                          to have them slowed down 3-5 years
                          (on average) longer than normal.

                          Plus, Eckankar's Higher Initiates
                          (5-7) are a very passive group
                          and don't want to question the
                          foundation of their religion because
                          things are going okay so why rock
                          the boat? Being an H.I. is an ego
                          trip and a security blanket too.

                          And, let's face it, most Eckists don't
                          have the time or inclination to research
                          the old, P.T., Eckankar texts. They've
                          read it all before so why go back and
                          read it with new eyes and a changed
                          consciousness? However, it does make
                          one wonder why they've allowed them-
                          selves to be shackled to HK's dogma
                          when it's all based upon Twitchell's
                          "compilation."

                          In PT's Eckankar Dictionary, Shariyat
                          One and HK's First Lexicon, they
                          tell about the first "root race" called
                          the "POLARIANS." Klemp must agree
                          with Twitchell on this dogmatic information
                          since he put it into his own Eckankar
                          Lexicon.

                          But, do Eckists really believe in the
                          Old Testament Christian Myth about
                          the Garden of Eden? Actually, no,
                          they don't! I've even read where
                          they've made fun of this. How ironic!
                          Twitchell not only states that the
                          Garden of Eden existed but gives
                          his own (revised) names of those
                          present. In the ECK version Adam
                          becomes "Adom" and Eve becomes
                          "Ede" (like in Eden) This is, of course,
                          a clear picture of how Twitchell created
                          Eckankar. He took certain words,
                          names, and information changed
                          the text and letters around, or added
                          and omitted letters, and made the
                          info his own.

                          What's really funny is that in defense
                          of Twitchell Klemp has claimed that
                          Paul "compiled" only the highest teachings
                          from around the world in order to
                          create the highest "spiritual" teaching
                          anywhere and at anytime. Why then,
                          did Twitchell use the Garden of Eden
                          myth, and create Adom and Ede?
                          Is this supposed to be the actual
                          account while the Christian version
                          is less accurate. This is how Eckists
                          rationalize and explain everything
                          (the truth) away. ECK is a facsimile
                          and everything else is a copy. But
                          this shows that all religions are
                          distorted and inaccurate copies.

                          It really should be embarrassing,
                          for Eckists, since this information
                          is listed in their first Holy Book
                          under Polarian race (check the
                          index for the page number).

                          Plus, let's face it. This Garden
                          of Eden myth is a non-evolutionary
                          belief. It was devised during
                          a time of ignorance and pre-science
                          in order to give a religious explanation
                          for creation. And, it's been revised
                          even by early Christianity because
                          Lillith was supposed to have been
                          Adam's first mate who was created
                          equally with him.

                          Later, the creation myth story was
                          changed so that Eve was created
                          from Adam's rib in order to make
                          her subservient to him... as Eckists
                          are to subservient to Klemp. Thus,
                          no female LEMs and even Mahantas
                          are permitted due to some hokey
                          negative atom ekplanation.


                          But, Eckists are in denial of the truth
                          as they continue to pretend they
                          are advanced Souls. The mind is
                          very powerful and that's why Eckankar
                          appears to work for Eckists. The
                          mind will give one the dreams
                          and "signs" that are programmed
                          into it via suggestion and expectation.
                          However, isn't this the modus
                          operandi of all religions? If one
                          just Googles "miracles" one can
                          see examples of faith and belief
                          that would put any Eckist to shame.

                          Therefore, why do Eckists not
                          see the truth? Is it that they
                          have tied up their camels, to
                          a fraudent belief, and now, trust
                          in a make believe God/Mahanta...
                          Klemp? It is the Easy Way!

                          Prometheus




                          etznab@... wrote:
                          I think a lot of people can overlook this stuff, thinking that whatever
                          Paul Twitchell said/wrote must be the truth. Some people just might not
                          care. Well, it's reasonable to suspect this talent - for promotion,
                          even when it means making things up, stretching the truth, or just
                          plain spinning lies - was used to "create" the Eckankar mythos.

                          myth

                          1830, from Gk. mythos "speech, thought, story, myth," of unknown origin.

                          Myths are "stories about divine beings, generally arranged in a
                          coherent system; they are revered as true and sacred; they are endorsed
                          by rulers and priests; and closely linked to religion. Once this link
                          is broken, and the actors in the story are not regarded as gods but as
                          human heroes, giants or fairies, it is no longer a myth but a folktale.
                          Where the central actor is divine but the story is trivial ... the
                          result is religious legend, not myth." [J. Simpson & S. Roud,
                          "Dictionary of English Folklore," Oxford, 2000, p.254]

                          General sense of "untrue story, rumor" is from 1840.

                          http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=mythos&searchmode=\
                          \
                          none

                          In other words, amid all the compilations and recycled material, etc.,
                          context has been changed (in various places) when it comes to source. I
                          wonder, could Paul Twitchell have created "Eckankar" and at the same
                          time given the source for all of his material? I noticed Kirpal Singh
                          and others were very good at citing references and sharing what
                          quote/saying came from who. So if Paul Twitchell ever chose to use
                          passages and paragraphs from books, Did he always feel obligated to
                          provide that information?

                          As a promoter, I suspect the person wants to give credit to whatever
                          they're promoting and not give more credit to "other products" instead.
                          It makes sense (to me) that Paul Twitchell would "paint the name
                          Eckankar" over so much material he had read (in so many words). Not
                          only this, but it even appears probable that Paul Twitchell took
                          liberty to respell and redefine words according to fit them in a new,
                          and growing, Eckankar philosophy. Not only words, but names too!

                          How extensive the promotion and PR campaign that created contemporary
                          Eckankar teaching? In so many ways, it seems this is the part that
                          doesn't agree with people. Not unless they knew from the beginning that
                          information was not necessarily accurate and in some places embellished.

                          embellish

                          mid-14c., "to render beautiful," from O.Fr. embelliss-, stem of
                          embellir "make beautiful, ornament," from em- (see en- (1)) + bel
                          "beautiful," from L. bellus (see bene-). Meaning "dress up (a
                          narration) with fictitious matter" is from mid-15c. Related:
                          Embellished; embellishing.

                          http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=embellished&search\
                          \
                          mode=none

                          Reading through early Eckankar books I think common sense might tell a
                          person that parts of the material was embellished. At the same time I
                          also think people could naturally so much want the material to be true
                          that they allow imagination to "make it so" and overrule common sense.

                          Ever observe what happens when you're part of a group where countless
                          individuals believe in things - through imagination - that aren't
                          necessarily true? I mean, when you're one of the unbelievers and part
                          of the minority who question whether so many imagined things are true?


                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                          <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Sat, Sep 17, 2011 2:14 am
                          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: "The Dark Side of ECKankar" -
                          And More!

                          Â
                          Hello Etznab and All,
                          This tells how Paul Twitchell
                          was His Own Drum Beater:

                          http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html

                          What's interesting is that at age 27 (1935)
                          Twitchell was saying that he had been
                          to India (supposedly at age 15 to meet
                          Rebazar for the first time, DOBTLEM).
                          However, Klemp points out that Twitchell
                          was doing another self-promotion, and
                          was lying in order to get into Who's Who
                          in Kentucky. Klemp states that Twitchell
                          had never been all that far from home
                          at age 27. Klemp seems to have stepped
                          into a big pile of Twits mess. HK's
                          statement contradicts what Twitchell
                          revealed in Difficulties of Becoming the
                          Living ECK Master circa July, 1971. This
                          1971 date is, supposedly, long after Twitchell
                          (the Mahanta) was was no longer "exaggerating"
                          and "twisting facts." However, as Klemp
                          has pointed out Twitchell was still lying
                          and promoting his con up until his untimely
                          and death in September, 1971.

                          Prometheus

                          etznab@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Almost didn't see this response because the e-mail bounced.
                          >
                          > Umm ... about the self-promotion, whatever, people can read about
                          some of the history here.
                          >
                          > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html
                          >
                          > Check out 4th paragraph of article entitled: Paul's Seal of
                          Approval.
                          >
                          > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                          "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Hello Etznab and All,
                          > > It is interesting that Twitchell
                          > > has his Rebazar character (the
                          > > "Master" who initiated him)
                          > > indicate that there were 8 Planes
                          > > just as Radhasomi and Ruhani
                          > > Satsang have listed in "The Path
                          > > of the Masters." Since Kirpal
                          > > Singh, of Ruhani Satsang, was
                          > > Paul's real life Master for ten years
                          > > it's no wonder that this dogma was
                          > > influential in the design of Eckankar.
                          > >
                          > > Of course, Twitchell was constantly
                          > > tweaking, revising, and masking his
                          > > religious con as time went by.
                          > >
                          > > The Anami Lok (10th Plane where
                          > > "Sugmad" resides) didn't appear until
                          > > later. Did Rebazar simply forget to
                          > > mention this as well as the "Mahanta?"
                          > > Did RT think that Paul needed to be
                          > > spoon-fed and wasn't ready for this
                          > > advanced "spiritual" info? No, not really.
                          > > According to Twitchell he had been
                          > > given the 12th and "final initiation"
                          > > (to become LEM) back in 1951 by
                          > > Rebazar while on his "2nd" visit to
                          > > India. See, the timeline is off for this
                          > > ekplanation to be taken seriously as
                          > > well.
                          > >
                          > > Therefore, there is no rational excuse
                          > > for these inconsistencies except to
                          > > admit that the "rascal" Twitchell was,
                          > > once again, "exaggerating" and "twisting
                          > > facts" as even Klemp has described
                          > > and said of him. Klemp, years ago,
                          > > had to admit that Twitchell was a self-
                          > > promoter and did or said whatever
                          > > he needed to do ("By Any Means Necessary")
                          > > in order to get Eckankar off the ground.
                          > >
                          > > This is why Klemp, at first, had a
                          > > difficult job of explaining Twitchell's
                          > > inconsistencies and needed to keep
                          > > Eckists confused, busy, and off-balance.
                          > > Now, Eckists are so brainwashed that
                          > > Klemp can say whatever in his simple
                          > > minded redundant versions of feel-good
                          > > New Age spirituality.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Prometheus
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > etznab wrote:
                          > >
                          > > One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar
                          Tarzs
                          > > mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme.
                          Check the
                          > > index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with
                          the Master.
                          > >
                          > > The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless
                          region,
                          > > [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called
                          THE FACE OF
                          > > GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying:
                          [Quoting]
                          > > "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the
                          light of
                          > > God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes
                          could not look
                          > > upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean
                          of Love
                          > > and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return
                          in time."
                          > > (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)
                          > >
                          > > Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in
                          the House
                          > > of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens.
                          Ye cannot
                          > > go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with
                          my divine
                          > > self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in
                          the divine
                          > > cause!"
                          > >
                          > > Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the
                          Master, has
                          > > Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting
                          snippet]:
                          > >
                          > > "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in
                          a
                          > > mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
                          > > attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
                          > > "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
                          after
                          > > this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul
                          reaches
                          > > the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or
                          the SUGMAD,
                          > > the supreme LORD of all that exists."
                          > >
                          > > http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html
                          > >
                          > > Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the
                          description
                          > > slightly:
                          > >
                          > > "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the
                          Sat Nam in
                          > > a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in
                          all Sat
                          > > Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the
                          three
                          > > remaining known planes.
                          > >
                          > > "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha,
                          and
                          > > after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam
                          Purusha, or
                          > > lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region
                          of the
                          > > nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first
                          you know
                          > > about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the
                          Divine.
                          > >
                          > > "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."
                          > >
                          > > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                          > >
                          > > Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is
                          illustrated (by
                          > > Paul Twitchell) slightly different.
                          > >
                          > > "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam
                          Lok.
                          > > Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the
                          end of its
                          > > journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the
                          supreme
                          > > lord of all that exists."
                          > >
                          > > http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html
                          > >
                          > > The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok,
                          Alak Lok,
                          > > Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with
                          Ocean of
                          > > Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip
                          mention of
                          > > Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.
                          > >
                          > > In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master,
                          Introduction to
                          > > Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes
                          similarly, and
                          > > in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain
                          sections from
                          > > The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:
                          > >
                          > > "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit
                          is
                          > > expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal,
                          Nirala,
                          > > Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
                          > > Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country
                          > >
                          > > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                          > >
                          > > "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many
                          words, such
                          > > as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala,
                          Anami, Agam,
                          > > Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar,
                          Parameshwar,
                          > > Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters
                          > >
                          > > http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html
                          > >
                          > > Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent
                          from the
                          > > Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR
                          vs.
                          > > Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian
                          Johnson's book,
                          > > The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The
                          Far
                          > > Country, by at least three decades!
                          > >
                          > > Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word,
                          trademarked
                          > > it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is
                          somehow more
                          > > than a paraphrase.
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