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Re: "The Dark Side of ECKankar" - And More!

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  • prometheus_973
    Hello Rosemarie, I am a seeker of Truth as well. And yes, this article on The Dark Side of Eckankar is inaccurate, but there is a dark side to Eckankar and
    Message 1 of 24 , Feb 15, 2011
      Hello Rosemarie,
      I am a seeker of Truth as well.
      And yes, this article on "The Dark
      Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
      there is a dark side to Eckankar and
      there is also fear.

      I find it interesting that you've
      read (and I assume have contemplated
      upon) David Lane's research as well as
      Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
      and have, still, remained an ECKist.

      What happened to your "critical thinking?"
      Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
      you agree with some of it but not all of
      it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
      I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
      isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
      what they believe than any other religion
      they've found. Is that the case with you?

      I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
      book, threw it away (because of the bad
      vibes), and then placed themselves upon
      pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
      and talk Eckists through their doubts and
      concerns.

      You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
      not all truth is the same. That's why there
      are so many churches. People are social
      animals and tend to seek out others with
      similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
      to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
      to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
      and a test for Soul.

      I also got the impression that you don't
      participate much within the RESA structure.
      Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
      Do you know that you have to watch what
      you say? You've observed and learned that
      correct? You do care about being promoted
      to that next initiation right?

      Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
      take on the subjects that we've been discussing
      here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
      lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
      for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
      Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
      when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
      "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
      detectors just for his talk?

      You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues. 
      We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
      at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."

      BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
      read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?

      Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
      the table.

      Prometheus

      rosemarie wrote:
      Hi Diana,

      I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth is truth and will always be the truth.

      I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember, we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.

      I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must be brave and remain in truth.

      Thank you for getting back to me.
      Rosemarie


      dianastanley wrote:

      Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time. If it is hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew and was their experience I also say.

      Diana Stanley

      Rosemarie Bucci wrote:

      I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who are
      searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
      findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
      thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.

      I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues. 
      We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
      have allot to bring to the table.
       
      I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
      called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
      site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because I'd
      raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
      well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
      complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
      thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely objective.
      For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
      paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
       
      I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
      within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on the
      facts.

      I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
      the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
      belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking.
      Do you?
    • dianastanley43
      Rosemarie you are quite right. I started with Eckankar and ended up studing quantum Physics What I finally came to the conclusion of was if you were sitting in
      Message 2 of 24 , Feb 17, 2011
        Rosemarie you are quite right. I started with Eckankar and ended up studing quantum Physics What I finally came to the conclusion of was if you were sitting in you living room you didn't need a spiritual path to find your living room. It has not been an easy journy as I was loath to give up the idea of the mystical and magical and I traveled many paths in the 30 yrs after leaving Eckankar. One day I read a quote that changed my belief system of years. "God did'nt create the universe God became the universe. It's interesting that when the time is right I might understand something that a few yrs earlier would not have ment anything.
        Diana

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Rosemarie Bucci <rblustar@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Diana,
        > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this
        > path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been
        > to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that
        > honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth
        > is truth and will always be the truth.
        >
        >  
        > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we
        > follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching
        > which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember,
        > we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to
        > bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
        >
        >  
        > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts
        > sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must
        > be brave and remain in truth.
        > Thank you for gettingback to me.
        > Rosemarie
        >
        >
        >
        > ____________________________________________________________________________________
        > It's here! Your new message!
        > Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar.
        > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/
        >
      • Avonblue
        Diana and All, I came to eckankar back in the 70 s because I felt religion was an abomination and the lure of free exploration of our spiritual self was truly
        Message 3 of 24 , Feb 18, 2011
          Diana and All,

          I came to eckankar back in the 70's because I felt religion was an abomination and the lure of free exploration of our spiritual self was truly revolutionary. Eckankar eventually failed to be the magical mystical carpet ride it was purported to be but instead a rehash and reinvention of eastern and western mumbo jumbo recreated by a charlatan. I too have explored quantum physics and especially the advances in neuroscience over the past several years and have come to the belief that "spirituality" and for the that matter "god" is nothing more than misunderstood and undiscovered as of yet science.

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "dianastanley43" <dianastanley43@...> wrote:
          >
          > Rosemarie you are quite right. I started with Eckankar and ended up studing quantum Physics What I finally came to the conclusion of was if you were sitting in you living room you didn't need a spiritual path to find your living room. It has not been an easy journy as I was loath to give up the idea of the mystical and magical and I traveled many paths in the 30 yrs after leaving Eckankar. One day I read a quote that changed my belief system of years. "God did'nt create the universe God became the universe. It's interesting that when the time is right I might understand something that a few yrs earlier would not have ment anything.
          > Diana
          >
          > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Rosemarie Bucci <rblustar@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Hi Diana,
          > > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this
          > > path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been
          > > to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that
          > > honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth
          > > is truth and will always be the truth.
          > >
          > >  
          > > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we
          > > follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching
          > > which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember,
          > > we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to
          > > bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
          > >
          > >  
          > > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts
          > > sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must
          > > be brave and remain in truth.
          > > Thank you for gettingback to me.
          > > Rosemarie
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ____________________________________________________________________________________
          > > It's here! Your new message!
          > > Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar.
          > > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/
          > >
          >
        • prometheus_973
          Hello Avonblue and All, I was first introduced to the quantum physics/mechanics/ field theory scam via Maharishi of TM fame. Adam Dreamhealer and many other
          Message 4 of 24 , Feb 21, 2011
            Hello Avonblue and All,
            I was first introduced to the
            "quantum physics/mechanics/
            field theory" scam via Maharishi
            of TM fame. Adam Dreamhealer
            and many other scammers have
            used and abused this theory
            to explain how their brand of
            whatever works. I'm surprised
            that Klemp hasn't used this hook
            in order to combine science and
            spirituality.

            It is quite interesting how Klemp
            gradually became "the" God/Mahanta.

            And, even though he has stated,
            "don't worship me" he has Eckists
            stare at his picture and chant HU.

            Plus, he has them dream of him
            and beseech him with requests,
            questions, help, protection, and
            for healing. So, HK instructs Eckists
            to pray to him (the Mahanta), but
            says he's not to be worshipped.
            How's that work? Of course he's
            worshipped!

            And, who or what is "worshipped" by
            Eckists at ECK Worship Services (EWS)?
            Is it the ECK? Klemp claims to be that
            too, or is it the Mahanta or both?
            So, on the "outer" Klemp is the leader
            (LEM) of Eckankar and on the "inner"
            he claims to be the ECK and the Mahanta.
            But wouldn't he, also, be the ECK and
            the Mahanta on the "outer" as well?
            This is where/how Klemp tricks ECKists
            into worshipping him. He's everything
            and claims to be levels higher than the
            God that other religions worship. Yet,
            just like Twitchell fooled people, Klemp
            does the same. Telling ECKists not to
            worship him is a disclaimer so that he
            can avoid responsibility.

            It's really laughable that older ECKists
            turned their backs on the religion of
            their parents because "God" never answered
            their prayers, etc. Now, they've substituted
            Klemp for Jesus or Moses or who and what
            ever. How stupid is that!

            Strange that Sugmad isn't worshipped
            at these EWS events and neither is God.
            God is discussed some, but a real Eckist
            knows that "God" is code for the Mahanta,
            or the KAL, it depends. So, who/what is
            worshipped? The ECK? That's Klemp too!
            Klemp, in one way or the other is always
            the main focus! Really, who does the Mahanta
            look like? And, yet, do Eckists really think
            about what they are really doing when they
            worship, pray HU, contemplate upon, dream,
            and beseech "the" Mahanta/ECK (Klemp)
            for help? Apparently not!

            Prometheus


            Avonblue wrote:
            Diana and All,

            I came to eckankar back in the 70's because I felt religion was an abomination
            and the lure of free exploration of our spiritual self was truly revolutionary.
            Eckankar eventually failed to be the magical mystical carpet ride it was
            purported to be but instead a rehash and reinvention of eastern and western
            mumbo jumbo recreated by a charlatan. I too have explored quantum physics and
            especially the advances in neuroscience over the past several years and have
            come to the belief that "spirituality" and for the that matter "god" is nothing
            more than misunderstood and undiscovered as of yet science.

            dianastanley43"
            dianastanley43@...> wrote:
            >
            > Rosemarie you are quite right. I started with Eckankar and ended up studing
            quantum Physics What I finally came to the conclusion of was if you were sitting
            in you living room you didn't need a spiritual path to find your living room. It
            has not been an easy journy as I was loath to give up the idea of the mystical
            and magical and I traveled many paths in the 30 yrs after leaving Eckankar. One
            day I read a quote that changed my belief system of years. "God did'nt create
            the universe God became the universe. It's interesting that when the time is
            right I might understand something that a few yrs earlier would not have ment
            anything.
            > Diana
            >
            Rosemarie Bucci <rblustar wrote:

            Hi Diana,
            I've had lots of experiences before
            my journey into eckankar and while on
            this path. I have read David Lane's book
            and Ford Johnson's book as well.

            I've been to eck satsangs, eck book
            discussions and eck seminars also.
            I agree that honesty is essential the
            name of GOD on all levels.

            I also understand that truth is truth
            and will always be the truth.

            I think it's important to remain open
            and honest regardless of what path we
            follow and to be there for one another
            as much as we can. We are all searching
            which is wonderful.

            Therefore, we are not wrong in doing
            so and let's remember, we all have each
            other to try to put all this in perspective.
            We have so much to bring to one another
            on our many different levels of knowledge
            and experience.

            I know we'll get through this some day
            and be stronger for it even if it hurts
            sometimes. If we are to stand before
            GOD and try to journey back to GOD,
            we must be brave and remain in truth.



            Prometheus: But there is no Truth
            in Eckankar nor in any religion. It's
            desperation, fear, lies, myth (stories),
            imagination, pretend, and delusion!



            Thank you for getting back to me.
            Rosemarie
          • dianastanley43
            ... Diana
            Message 5 of 24 , Feb 21, 2011
              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
              > Paul commissioned me to do a sculpture of him so the Eckist would have something to focus on,I quess it was supposed to compete with jesus on the cross, any way he died befor it was finished and the stature fell apart befor I could make a mold of it. I thought Paul destroyed when he died as a lot of hi's at the time felt that. Acually it was bad craftsmanship on my part. I have to say it was pretty neat, he was sitting on a stool looking holy.
              Diana
              >
              >
              >
              > Hello Avonblue and All,
              > I was first introduced to the
              > "quantum physics/mechanics/
              > field theory" scam via Maharishi
              > of TM fame. Adam Dreamhealer
              > and many other scammers have
              > used and abused this theory
              > to explain how their brand of
              > whatever works. I'm surprised
              > that Klemp hasn't used this hook
              > in order to combine science and
              > spirituality.
              >
              > It is quite interesting how Klemp
              > gradually became "the" God/Mahanta.
              >
              > And, even though he has stated,
              > "don't worship me" he has Eckists
              > stare at his picture and chant HU.
              >
              > Plus, he has them dream of him
              > and beseech him with requests,
              > questions, help, protection, and
              > for healing. So, HK instructs Eckists
              > to pray to him (the Mahanta), but
              > says he's not to be worshipped.
              > How's that work? Of course he's
              > worshipped!
              >
              > And, who or what is "worshipped" by
              > Eckists at ECK Worship Services (EWS)?
              > Is it the ECK? Klemp claims to be that
              > too, or is it the Mahanta or both?
              > So, on the "outer" Klemp is the leader
              > (LEM) of Eckankar and on the "inner"
              > he claims to be the ECK and the Mahanta.
              > But wouldn't he, also, be the ECK and
              > the Mahanta on the "outer" as well?
              > This is where/how Klemp tricks ECKists
              > into worshipping him. He's everything
              > and claims to be levels higher than the
              > God that other religions worship. Yet,
              > just like Twitchell fooled people, Klemp
              > does the same. Telling ECKists not to
              > worship him is a disclaimer so that he
              > can avoid responsibility.
              >
              > It's really laughable that older ECKists
              > turned their backs on the religion of
              > their parents because "God" never answered
              > their prayers, etc. Now, they've substituted
              > Klemp for Jesus or Moses or who and what
              > ever. How stupid is that!
              >
              > Strange that Sugmad isn't worshipped
              > at these EWS events and neither is God.
              > God is discussed some, but a real Eckist
              > knows that "God" is code for the Mahanta,
              > or the KAL, it depends. So, who/what is
              > worshipped? The ECK? That's Klemp too!
              > Klemp, in one way or the other is always
              > the main focus! Really, who does the Mahanta
              > look like? And, yet, do Eckists really think
              > about what they are really doing when they
              > worship, pray HU, contemplate upon, dream,
              > and beseech "the" Mahanta/ECK (Klemp)
              > for help? Apparently not!
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
              >
              > Avonblue wrote:
              > Diana and All,
              >
              > I came to eckankar back in the 70's because I felt religion was an abomination
              > and the lure of free exploration of our spiritual self was truly revolutionary.
              > Eckankar eventually failed to be the magical mystical carpet ride it was
              > purported to be but instead a rehash and reinvention of eastern and western
              > mumbo jumbo recreated by a charlatan. I too have explored quantum physics and
              > especially the advances in neuroscience over the past several years and have
              > come to the belief that "spirituality" and for the that matter "god" is nothing
              > more than misunderstood and undiscovered as of yet science.
              >
              > dianastanley43"
              > dianastanley43@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Rosemarie you are quite right. I started with Eckankar and ended up studing
              > quantum Physics What I finally came to the conclusion of was if you were sitting
              > in you living room you didn't need a spiritual path to find your living room. It
              > has not been an easy journy as I was loath to give up the idea of the mystical
              > and magical and I traveled many paths in the 30 yrs after leaving Eckankar. One
              > day I read a quote that changed my belief system of years. "God did'nt create
              > the universe God became the universe. It's interesting that when the time is
              > right I might understand something that a few yrs earlier would not have ment
              > anything.
              > > Diana
              > >
              > Rosemarie Bucci <rblustar wrote:
              >
              > Hi Diana,
              > I've had lots of experiences before
              > my journey into eckankar and while on
              > this path. I have read David Lane's book
              > and Ford Johnson's book as well.
              >
              > I've been to eck satsangs, eck book
              > discussions and eck seminars also.
              > I agree that honesty is essential the
              > name of GOD on all levels.
              >
              > I also understand that truth is truth
              > and will always be the truth.
              >
              > I think it's important to remain open
              > and honest regardless of what path we
              > follow and to be there for one another
              > as much as we can. We are all searching
              > which is wonderful.
              >
              > Therefore, we are not wrong in doing
              > so and let's remember, we all have each
              > other to try to put all this in perspective.
              > We have so much to bring to one another
              > on our many different levels of knowledge
              > and experience.
              >
              > I know we'll get through this some day
              > and be stronger for it even if it hurts
              > sometimes. If we are to stand before
              > GOD and try to journey back to GOD,
              > we must be brave and remain in truth.
              >
              >
              >
              > Prometheus: But there is no Truth
              > in Eckankar nor in any religion. It's
              > desperation, fear, lies, myth (stories),
              > imagination, pretend, and delusion!
              >
              >
              >
              > Thank you for getting back to me.
              > Rosemarie
              >
            • starshine917
              Hello prometheus_973: Remember me? Wow, it s so weird that I d be writing to you now….exactly, one year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I
              Message 6 of 24 , Sep 4, 2011
                Hello prometheus_973:
                Remember me? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writing to you now….exactly, one year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I didn't plan it like this but somehow it just worked out this way.

                I recently left Eckankar. And, you were right….I read David Lane's paper as well as Ford Johnson's "Confessions of a God Seeker" And, for some reason at that time I remained in the group tying to focus on the so-called positive side of the Eckankar, the hypnotic rederick that goes nowhere while ignoring the facts. I then started to take a good look at Harold…looked into his "dark" eyes and listened to his figure of monotone speak and I realized it was very hypnotic, and at the same time very inviting. I wondered who or what was inside of those dark eyes….And they seem to always come as "the light". Yes, the "angel of light".

                I was in a satsang at that time and I found it disturbing more and more that his same picture of himself, which by the way never changes, the one and only picture that has to be present at all Eckankar meetings was never questioned by it's members. All the books we studied were written by him and only him !!! And how some members were "higher" than others depending on their "initiation" number, even if these people knew absolutely nothing except what was written in the books of Eckankar. Some of these people seemed to have anger issues too which didn't seem to fit the spiritual portrait of a saint they painted. I started to feel uncomfortable around these people cause they seemed more and more to me like mind-controlled slaves. And, they too could see that I was thinking and starting to pull away because I no longer looked to them without question, with blind authority.

                So, it wasn't a good mix to say the very least. I finally had it out with one of the members and I realized that I already left…In my heart, I choose to follow truth and I also realized that that in Eckankar, I was being deceived. And I realized that I couldn't have it both ways. I had to pick my convictions and go with them. After all, why would I go against my own self, and what was in my heart ?

                In Eckankar it is taught to open and follow your heart but yet, if you dare open your mind and begin to ask challenging questions, you're in trouble because these people think the Mahanta in Eckankar is above all else and should never be questioned, and your heart should be open to "him", the self appointed master, Harold Klemp. Even if the members of Eckankar are not honest with themselves enough to admit it consciously. On a subconscious level, they know better !!!

                The shame of it all is that this deception is done in the name of an unconditional open heart to give love, which it is true, a part of GOD's flow but where's the truth ? What happened to that part of GOD ??? I guess it got lost in the sea of love…


                Hello prometheus_973;
                Remember me ? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writ

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hello Rosemarie,
                > I am a seeker of Truth as well.
                > And yes, this article on "The Dark
                > Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
                > there is a dark side to Eckankar and
                > there is also fear.
                >
                > I find it interesting that you've
                > read (and I assume have contemplated
                > upon) David Lane's research as well as
                > Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
                > and have, still, remained an ECKist.
                >
                > What happened to your "critical thinking?"
                > Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
                > you agree with some of it but not all of
                > it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
                > I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
                > isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
                > what they believe than any other religion
                > they've found. Is that the case with you?
                >
                > I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
                > book, threw it away (because of the bad
                > vibes), and then placed themselves upon
                > pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
                > and talk Eckists through their doubts and
                > concerns.
                >
                > You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
                > not all truth is the same. That's why there
                > are so many churches. People are social
                > animals and tend to seek out others with
                > similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
                > to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
                > to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
                > and a test for Soul.
                >
                > I also got the impression that you don't
                > participate much within the RESA structure.
                > Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
                > Do you know that you have to watch what
                > you say? You've observed and learned that
                > correct? You do care about being promoted
                > to that next initiation right?
                >
                > Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
                > take on the subjects that we've been discussing
                > here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
                > lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
                > for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
                > Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
                > when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
                > "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
                > detectors just for his talk?
                >
                > You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues. 
                > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
                > at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."
                >
                > BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
                > read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?
                >
                > Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
                > the table.
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
                > rosemarie wrote:
                > Hi Diana,
                >
                > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth is truth and will always be the truth.
                >
                > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember, we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
                >
                > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must be brave and remain in truth.
                >
                > Thank you for getting back to me.
                > Rosemarie
                >
                >
                > dianastanley wrote:
                >
                > Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time. If it is hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew and was their experience I also say.
                >
                > Diana Stanley
                >
                > Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
                >
                > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who are
                > searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
                > findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
                > thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.
                >
                > I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues. 
                > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
                > have allot to bring to the table.
                >  
                > I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
                > called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
                > site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because I'd
                > raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
                > well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
                > complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
                > thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely objective.
                > For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
                > paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
                >  
                > I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
                > within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on the
                > facts.
                >
                > I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
                > the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
                > belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking.
                > Do you?
                >
              • prometheus_973
                Hello All, Just thought I d share some additional comments to what Starshine wrote. starshine917 wrote: Hello prometheus_973: Remember me? Wow, it s so weird
                Message 7 of 24 , Sep 11, 2011
                  Hello All,
                  Just thought I'd share some
                  additional comments to what
                  Starshine wrote.

                  starshine917 wrote:
                  Hello prometheus_973:
                  Remember me? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writing to you now….exactly, one
                  year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I didn't plan it like
                  this but somehow it just worked out this way.


                  ME: Yes, it takes awhile for the
                  realization to occur and sink in
                  even after one decides to look
                  for and analyze it via critical
                  thinking while giving HK's/PT's
                  redundant words a litmus test
                  for truthiness.


                  I recently left Eckankar. And, you were right….I read David Lane's paper as well
                  as Ford Johnson's "Confessions of a God Seeker" And, for some reason at that
                  time I remained in the group tying to focus on the so-called positive side of
                  the Eckankar, the hypnotic rederick that goes nowhere while ignoring the facts.
                  I then started to take a good look at Harold…looked into his "dark" eyes and
                  listened to his figure of monotone speak and I realized it was very hypnotic,
                  and at the same time very inviting. I wondered who or what was inside of those
                  dark eyes….And they seem to always come as "the light". Yes, the "angel of
                  light".


                  ME: Klemp is no angel of light! He spreads
                  darkness and delusion while denying Eckists
                  their true nature as Soul. He gives (hope),
                  promises (higher plane initiations), and then
                  takes it all away (hope of ever getting beyond
                  the 7th initiation while in this lifetime, unless,
                  one pretends or imagines they are higher
                  via vanity and frustration).


                  I was in a satsang at that time and I found it disturbing more and more that his
                  same picture of himself, which by the way never changes, the one and only
                  picture that has to be present at all Eckankar meetings was never questioned by
                  it's members. All the books we studied were written by him and only him !!! And
                  how some members were "higher" than others depending on their "initiation"
                  number, even if these people knew absolutely nothing except what was written in
                  the books of Eckankar. Some of these people seemed to have anger issues too
                  which didn't seem to fit the spiritual portrait of a saint they painted. I
                  started to feel uncomfortable around these people cause they seemed more and
                  more to me like mind-controlled slaves. And, they too could see that I was
                  thinking and starting to pull away because I no longer looked to them without
                  question, with blind authority.


                  ME: Yes, that more youthful looking
                  Official Picture of Klemp's is a vain act,
                  but is never questioned because to do
                  so would get one Black Listed on initiations.
                  Those longtime Eckists who are part
                  of the RESA Hierarchy know what I'm
                  saying. Some H.I.s are fearful/cautious
                  of the spies that report to the RESA and
                  only share certain things (anti-Guideline
                  comments, etc.) around those H.I.s they
                  can trust.


                  BTW- There are some books, that Klemp
                  has approved of, written by non-Eck
                  authors that Eckists can read. However,
                  the Eckist must always focus upon the
                  ECK or Mahanta when reading these
                  books and, thus, give up free, unfettered,
                  thought. Some of these books are
                  recommended to those in leadership
                  positions and are business oriented.



                  So, it wasn't a good mix to say the very least. I finally had it out with one of
                  the members and I realized that I already left…In my heart, I choose to follow
                  truth and I also realized that that in Eckankar, I was being deceived. And I
                  realized that I couldn't have it both ways. I had to pick my convictions and go
                  with them. After all, why would I go against my own self, and what was in my
                  heart?


                  ME: It's the easy way to place an
                  authority figure on a shelf higher
                  than yourself. Less thinking and
                  effort is involved when blind trust
                  takes over. It's lazy but that's what
                  people do. Look at how we allow
                  the politicians to say and do as
                  they please without taking responsibility.
                  With Klemp, it's always the chela's
                  fault and never his own! He slowed-
                  down initiations in 1985, but doesn't
                  need to explain why these haven't
                  sped up because he answers to
                  nobody else, except, Sugmad right?


                  In Eckankar it is taught to open and follow your heart but yet, if you dare open
                  your mind and begin to ask challenging questions, you're in trouble because
                  these people think the Mahanta in Eckankar is above all else and should never be
                  questioned, and your heart should be open to "him", the self appointed master,
                  Harold Klemp. Even if the members of Eckankar are not honest with themselves
                  enough to admit it consciously. On a subconscious level, they know better !!!

                  ME: That following your heart
                  thing is more about the Astral
                  Heart Chakra... which is lower
                  than the Third Eye or Tisra Til!
                  Why didn't Klemp at least use
                  the (Astral) Crown Chakra when
                  having Eckists HU? After 30 years
                  and HK still has Eckists HUing
                  and focusing upon the 6th,
                  Third Eye, Astral Chakra versus
                  the 7th Crown Chakra!


                  The shame of it all is that this deception is done in the name of an
                  unconditional open heart to give love, which it is true, a part of GOD's flow
                  but where's the truth ? What happened to that part of GOD ??? I guess it got
                  lost in the sea of love…


                  ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                  "common language" but it's not
                  quite true. ECK is not a common
                  word and neither is Mahanta.
                  And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                  to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                  others worship or think he is speaking
                  about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                  use the word GOD when it's not
                  who or what they are referring
                  to. It's like comparing apples
                  to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                  start out, and are trained, to be
                  deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                  fact alone makes Eckankar look
                  very cult like. But, why the lie?
                  The "common language" excuse
                  doesn't hold water but Eckists
                  can't question this underhanded
                  practice or else they can have
                  their position taken away and
                  be Black Listed and shunned.

                  Prometheus



                  Hello prometheus_973;
                  Remember me ? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writ


                  <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello Rosemarie,
                  > I am a seeker of Truth as well.
                  > And yes, this article on "The Dark
                  > Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
                  > there is a dark side to Eckankar and
                  > there is also fear.
                  >
                  > I find it interesting that you've
                  > read (and I assume have contemplated
                  > upon) David Lane's research as well as
                  > Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
                  > and have, still, remained an ECKist.
                  >
                  > What happened to your "critical thinking?"
                  > Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
                  > you agree with some of it but not all of
                  > it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
                  > I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
                  > isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
                  > what they believe than any other religion
                  > they've found. Is that the case with you?
                  >
                  > I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
                  > book, threw it away (because of the bad
                  > vibes), and then placed themselves upon
                  > pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
                  > and talk Eckists through their doubts and
                  > concerns.
                  >
                  > You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
                  > not all truth is the same. That's why there
                  > are so many churches. People are social
                  > animals and tend to seek out others with
                  > similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
                  > to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
                  > to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
                  > and a test for Soul.
                  >
                  > I also got the impression that you don't
                  > participate much within the RESA structure.
                  > Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
                  > Do you know that you have to watch what
                  > you say? You've observed and learned that
                  > correct? You do care about being promoted
                  > to that next initiation right?
                  >
                  > Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
                  > take on the subjects that we've been discussing
                  > here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
                  > lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
                  > for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
                  > Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
                  > when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
                  > "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
                  > detectors just for his talk?
                  >
                  > You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                  > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
                  > at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."
                  >
                  > BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
                  > read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?
                  >
                  > Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
                  > the table.
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                  > rosemarie wrote:
                  > Hi Diana,
                  >
                  > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this
                  path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been
                  to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that
                  honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth
                  is truth and will always be the truth.
                  >
                  > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we
                  follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching
                  which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember,
                  we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to
                  bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
                  >
                  > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts
                  sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must
                  be brave and remain in truth.
                  >
                  > Thank you for getting back to me.
                  > Rosemarie
                  >
                  >
                  > dianastanley wrote:
                  >
                  > Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any
                  direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from
                  personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time. If it is
                  hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew and was their
                  experience I also say.
                  >
                  > Diana Stanley
                  >
                  > Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
                  >
                  > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who
                  are searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
                  findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
                  thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.
                  >
                  I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                  We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
                  have allot to bring to the table.
                  >
                  I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
                  called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
                  site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because
                  I'd raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
                  well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
                  complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
                  thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely
                  objective.

                  For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
                  paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
                  >
                  I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
                  within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on
                  the facts.
                  >
                  I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
                  the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
                  belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking.
                  Do you?
                • postekcon
                  Re ... ME: Klemp likes to say he uses common language but it s not quite true. ECK is not a common word and neither is Mahanta. And, the God (Sugmad) he
                  Message 8 of 24 , Sep 11, 2011
                    Re
                    >>>
                    ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                    "common language" but it's not
                    quite true. ECK is not a common
                    word and neither is Mahanta.
                    And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                    to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                    others worship or think he is speaking
                    about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                    use the word GOD when it's not
                    who or what they are referring
                    to. It's like comparing apples
                    to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                    start out, and are trained, to be
                    deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                    fact alone makes Eckankar look
                    very cult like. But, why the lie?
                    The "common language" excuse
                    doesn't hold water but Eckists
                    can't question this underhanded
                    practice or else they can have
                    their position taken away and
                    be Black Listed and shunned.
                    >>>


                    For the past ten years, I have observed this pattern.

                    Hard working HIs (50-70yrs plus) busy putting on Intro Talks, occasionally enrolling a new recruit to ekult.

                    However, within a year or two, the new recruit leaves ekult as nothing makes sense! Of course, the HIs, unable to look at either themselves or ekult, always blame the new recruit with comments such as lack of unfoldment etc!

                    For the new recruit, the reason nothing makes sense, I've observed, is thus. The HIs bring the new recruit into Paul Twitchell/Darwin Gross ekult; the ekult into which they themselved were enrolled. Now this version of ekult promised it had the tools for self/god realization in this lifetime etc. However, several MW (Mystic World) issues later, the new recruit comes to understand these 'good people' lied to them!
                    -Postekcon


                    In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hello All,
                    > Just thought I'd share some
                    > additional comments to what
                    > Starshine wrote.
                    >
                    > starshine917 wrote:
                    > Hello prometheus_973:
                    > Remember me? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writing to you now….exactly, one
                    > year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I didn't plan it like
                    > this but somehow it just worked out this way.
                    >
                    >
                    > ME: Yes, it takes awhile for the
                    > realization to occur and sink in
                    > even after one decides to look
                    > for and analyze it via critical
                    > thinking while giving HK's/PT's
                    > redundant words a litmus test
                    > for truthiness.
                    >
                    >
                    > I recently left Eckankar. And, you were right….I read David Lane's paper as well
                    > as Ford Johnson's "Confessions of a God Seeker" And, for some reason at that
                    > time I remained in the group tying to focus on the so-called positive side of
                    > the Eckankar, the hypnotic rederick that goes nowhere while ignoring the facts.
                    > I then started to take a good look at Harold…looked into his "dark" eyes and
                    > listened to his figure of monotone speak and I realized it was very hypnotic,
                    > and at the same time very inviting. I wondered who or what was inside of those
                    > dark eyes….And they seem to always come as "the light". Yes, the "angel of
                    > light".
                    >
                    >
                    > ME: Klemp is no angel of light! He spreads
                    > darkness and delusion while denying Eckists
                    > their true nature as Soul. He gives (hope),
                    > promises (higher plane initiations), and then
                    > takes it all away (hope of ever getting beyond
                    > the 7th initiation while in this lifetime, unless,
                    > one pretends or imagines they are higher
                    > via vanity and frustration).
                    >
                    >
                    > I was in a satsang at that time and I found it disturbing more and more that his
                    > same picture of himself, which by the way never changes, the one and only
                    > picture that has to be present at all Eckankar meetings was never questioned by
                    > it's members. All the books we studied were written by him and only him !!! And
                    > how some members were "higher" than others depending on their "initiation"
                    > number, even if these people knew absolutely nothing except what was written in
                    > the books of Eckankar. Some of these people seemed to have anger issues too
                    > which didn't seem to fit the spiritual portrait of a saint they painted. I
                    > started to feel uncomfortable around these people cause they seemed more and
                    > more to me like mind-controlled slaves. And, they too could see that I was
                    > thinking and starting to pull away because I no longer looked to them without
                    > question, with blind authority.
                    >
                    >
                    > ME: Yes, that more youthful looking
                    > Official Picture of Klemp's is a vain act,
                    > but is never questioned because to do
                    > so would get one Black Listed on initiations.
                    > Those longtime Eckists who are part
                    > of the RESA Hierarchy know what I'm
                    > saying. Some H.I.s are fearful/cautious
                    > of the spies that report to the RESA and
                    > only share certain things (anti-Guideline
                    > comments, etc.) around those H.I.s they
                    > can trust.
                    >
                    >
                    > BTW- There are some books, that Klemp
                    > has approved of, written by non-Eck
                    > authors that Eckists can read. However,
                    > the Eckist must always focus upon the
                    > ECK or Mahanta when reading these
                    > books and, thus, give up free, unfettered,
                    > thought. Some of these books are
                    > recommended to those in leadership
                    > positions and are business oriented.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > So, it wasn't a good mix to say the very least. I finally had it out with one of
                    > the members and I realized that I already left…In my heart, I choose to follow
                    > truth and I also realized that that in Eckankar, I was being deceived. And I
                    > realized that I couldn't have it both ways. I had to pick my convictions and go
                    > with them. After all, why would I go against my own self, and what was in my
                    > heart?
                    >
                    >
                    > ME: It's the easy way to place an
                    > authority figure on a shelf higher
                    > than yourself. Less thinking and
                    > effort is involved when blind trust
                    > takes over. It's lazy but that's what
                    > people do. Look at how we allow
                    > the politicians to say and do as
                    > they please without taking responsibility.
                    > With Klemp, it's always the chela's
                    > fault and never his own! He slowed-
                    > down initiations in 1985, but doesn't
                    > need to explain why these haven't
                    > sped up because he answers to
                    > nobody else, except, Sugmad right?
                    >
                    >
                    > In Eckankar it is taught to open and follow your heart but yet, if you dare open
                    > your mind and begin to ask challenging questions, you're in trouble because
                    > these people think the Mahanta in Eckankar is above all else and should never be
                    > questioned, and your heart should be open to "him", the self appointed master,
                    > Harold Klemp. Even if the members of Eckankar are not honest with themselves
                    > enough to admit it consciously. On a subconscious level, they know better !!!
                    >
                    > ME: That following your heart
                    > thing is more about the Astral
                    > Heart Chakra... which is lower
                    > than the Third Eye or Tisra Til!
                    > Why didn't Klemp at least use
                    > the (Astral) Crown Chakra when
                    > having Eckists HU? After 30 years
                    > and HK still has Eckists HUing
                    > and focusing upon the 6th,
                    > Third Eye, Astral Chakra versus
                    > the 7th Crown Chakra!
                    >
                    >
                    > The shame of it all is that this deception is done in the name of an
                    > unconditional open heart to give love, which it is true, a part of GOD's flow
                    > but where's the truth ? What happened to that part of GOD ??? I guess it got
                    > lost in the sea of love…
                    >
                    >
                    > ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                    > "common language" but it's not
                    > quite true. ECK is not a common
                    > word and neither is Mahanta.
                    > And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                    > to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                    > others worship or think he is speaking
                    > about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                    > use the word GOD when it's not
                    > who or what they are referring
                    > to. It's like comparing apples
                    > to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                    > start out, and are trained, to be
                    > deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                    > fact alone makes Eckankar look
                    > very cult like. But, why the lie?
                    > The "common language" excuse
                    > doesn't hold water but Eckists
                    > can't question this underhanded
                    > practice or else they can have
                    > their position taken away and
                    > be Black Listed and shunned.
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Hello prometheus_973;
                    > Remember me ? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writ
                    >
                    >
                    > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hello Rosemarie,
                    > > I am a seeker of Truth as well.
                    > > And yes, this article on "The Dark
                    > > Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
                    > > there is a dark side to Eckankar and
                    > > there is also fear.
                    > >
                    > > I find it interesting that you've
                    > > read (and I assume have contemplated
                    > > upon) David Lane's research as well as
                    > > Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
                    > > and have, still, remained an ECKist.
                    > >
                    > > What happened to your "critical thinking?"
                    > > Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
                    > > you agree with some of it but not all of
                    > > it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
                    > > I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
                    > > isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
                    > > what they believe than any other religion
                    > > they've found. Is that the case with you?
                    > >
                    > > I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
                    > > book, threw it away (because of the bad
                    > > vibes), and then placed themselves upon
                    > > pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
                    > > and talk Eckists through their doubts and
                    > > concerns.
                    > >
                    > > You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
                    > > not all truth is the same. That's why there
                    > > are so many churches. People are social
                    > > animals and tend to seek out others with
                    > > similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
                    > > to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
                    > > to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
                    > > and a test for Soul.
                    > >
                    > > I also got the impression that you don't
                    > > participate much within the RESA structure.
                    > > Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
                    > > Do you know that you have to watch what
                    > > you say? You've observed and learned that
                    > > correct? You do care about being promoted
                    > > to that next initiation right?
                    > >
                    > > Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
                    > > take on the subjects that we've been discussing
                    > > here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
                    > > lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
                    > > for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
                    > > Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
                    > > when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
                    > > "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
                    > > detectors just for his talk?
                    > >
                    > > You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                    > > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
                    > > at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."
                    > >
                    > > BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
                    > > read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?
                    > >
                    > > Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
                    > > the table.
                    > >
                    > > Prometheus
                    > >
                    > > rosemarie wrote:
                    > > Hi Diana,
                    > >
                    > > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this
                    > path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been
                    > to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that
                    > honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth
                    > is truth and will always be the truth.
                    > >
                    > > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we
                    > follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching
                    > which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember,
                    > we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to
                    > bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
                    > >
                    > > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts
                    > sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must
                    > be brave and remain in truth.
                    > >
                    > > Thank you for getting back to me.
                    > > Rosemarie
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > dianastanley wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any
                    > direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from
                    > personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time. If it is
                    > hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew and was their
                    > experience I also say.
                    > >
                    > > Diana Stanley
                    > >
                    > > Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who
                    > are searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
                    > findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
                    > thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.
                    > >
                    > I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                    > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
                    > have allot to bring to the table.
                    > >
                    > I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
                    > called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
                    > site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because
                    > I'd raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
                    > well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
                    > complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
                    > thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely
                    > objective.
                    >
                    > For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
                    > paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
                    > >
                    > I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
                    > within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on
                    > the facts.
                    > >
                    > I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
                    > the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
                    > belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking.
                    > Do you?
                    >
                  • prometheus_973
                    Hello Postekcon and All, Yes, it was always a conundrum trying to recruit new members via spreading the word i.e. manure. However, we had structured public
                    Message 9 of 24 , Sep 14, 2011
                      Hello Postekcon and All,
                      Yes, it was always a conundrum
                      trying to recruit new members
                      via "spreading the word" i.e.
                      manure. However, we had
                      structured public workshops
                      and/or book discussions with
                      Guidelines spelling out what
                      to do and how to do it.

                      Some RESA areas did experimental
                      programs (special projects),
                      and if successful, the ESC
                      tweaked them to be used
                      elsewhere. It was all quite
                      time consuming and frustrating.
                      Local areas and the H.I.s were
                      always judged on the numbers
                      of newbies showing up for
                      these events. Most people
                      were repeats and were into
                      metaphysics or were the friends,
                      coworkers or relatives of Eckists.

                      I recall that one local area
                      of a neighboring state was
                      having a lot of success via
                      large turnouts of newbies.
                      They probably had a couple
                      of hundred newbies in one
                      year and that was practically
                      unheard of in Eckankar. Several
                      of these H.I.s were very proud
                      of the "high counts" they turned
                      in to the ESC. However, out
                      of all of those newbies only
                      about ten joined Eckankar
                      and only, maybe, one or two
                      remained after a year. These,
                      I doubt, remained for the
                      long haul. Let's face it, it's
                      a dead end religion where
                      one pretends, i.e. imagines
                      or visualizes, their desires
                      for "spiritual" progress and
                      "knowingness" or "realization"
                      of varying degrees. The initiation
                      game is the main, underlying,
                      theme. The problem, for Eckists,
                      is that dangling carrot when
                      initiations have been "slowed-
                      down" for 25 years and the
                      highest most can go is the 7th!

                      Those 7th initiates who had
                      hit the glass ceiling 20 or more
                      years ago have rationalized
                      it all away. They only stay in
                      EK because they have some
                      prestige, a lot of Eck friends,
                      and have paid their dues with
                      a lot of vahana and satsang
                      work over the years. Plus, they've
                      been taught to "imagine" and
                      visualize, therefore, all they
                      need to do is pretend they are
                      8ths (on the inner). Most pretend
                      they are higher than 8ths. After
                      all, Darwin skipped or sped up
                      initiations even for Klemp. So,
                      if it was valid, then, why not
                      today? Actually, just about all
                      Eckists pretent they are "higher"
                      than the number printed on
                      their Membership Cards.

                      Anyway, the reason why
                      the EK Youth effort has
                      gained some momentum
                      over the years is because
                      it's easier to brainwash a
                      controlled subject. However,
                      that doesn't always work,
                      either, when these young
                      Eckists see their parents
                      act so nutty and non-Eck
                      like. Plus, reclusive Klemp
                      puts a lot of pressure upon
                      them to do the vahana/
                      missionary thing when
                      it's tough enough getting
                      through school and those
                      teen years. Klemp doesn't
                      have any empathy. He was
                      in a Lutheran all boys high
                      school and never learned
                      about dating until he got
                      out of the Air Force (1968)
                      when he was 26 years old!

                      One has to wonder why
                      Klemp doesn't do his fair
                      share of public vahana work.
                      Why doesn't he have a radio
                      show or do and say something
                      in real time? The EK Seminars
                      don't count. That's for maybe
                      a hundred newbies who aren't
                      all that "new" and for his brain-
                      washed followers.

                      In theory, Klemp's real "spiritual"
                      mission is to help his followers
                      achieve God Realization. However,
                      what Initiation level is the indicator
                      that this has been accomplished?

                      According to Book 2, CH. 12 of
                      the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad (Eckankar's
                      Holy Book) their God, Sugmad,
                      resides on the 10th Plane, however,
                      Eckists must have the 11th Initiation
                      for "entrance into the Sugmad world,
                      which is the highest world of God,
                      if any, may enter."

                      Of course, that's not quite true either
                      since there're the 12th, 13th, and 14th
                      initiations after this one. This, then,
                      is where one (supposedly) enters into
                      Soul's true home called The Ocean of
                      love and Mercy. However, one can see
                      why EK Higher initiates (5-7) become
                      internally frustrated since, except for
                      a handful of people, they will never
                      even see the 8th initiation (in this
                      lifetime). That's the Catch/Con that
                      Twitchell invented and Klemp inherited.
                      Hope via promises for a better afterlife
                      while imagining day-to-day miracles
                      and dreaming about one's pre-programmed
                      expectations. It's how any and every
                      religion works.

                      Prometheus




                      "postekcon" wrote:
                      Re
                      >>>
                      ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                      "common language" but it's not
                      quite true. ECK is not a common
                      word and neither is Mahanta.
                      And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                      to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                      others worship or think he is speaking
                      about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                      use the word GOD when it's not
                      who or what they are referring
                      to. It's like comparing apples
                      to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                      start out, and are trained, to be
                      deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                      fact alone makes Eckankar look
                      very cult like. But, why the lie?
                      The "common language" excuse
                      doesn't hold water but Eckists
                      can't question this underhanded
                      practice or else they can have
                      their position taken away and
                      can be Black Listed and shunned.
                      >>>


                      For the past ten years, I have observed this pattern.

                      Hard working HIs (50-70yrs plus) busy putting on Intro Talks, occasionally
                      enrolling a new recruit to ekult.

                      However, within a year or two, the new recruit leaves ekult as nothing makes
                      sense! Of course, the HIs, unable to look at either themselves or ekult, always
                      blame the new recruit with comments such as lack of unfoldment etc!

                      For the new recruit, the reason nothing makes sense, I've observed, is thus. The
                      HIs bring the new recruit into Paul Twitchell/Darwin Gross ekult; the ekult into
                      which they themselved were enrolled. Now this version of ekult promised it had
                      the tools for self/god realization in this lifetime etc. However, several MW
                      (Mystic World) issues later, the new recruit comes to understand these 'good
                      people' lied to them!
                      -Postekcon


                      In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                      <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hello All,
                      > Just thought I'd share some
                      > additional comments to what
                      > Starshine wrote.
                      >
                      > starshine917 wrote:
                      > Hello prometheus_973:
                      > Remember me? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writing to you now….exactly, one
                      > year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I didn't plan it like
                      > this but somehow it just worked out this way.
                      >
                      >
                      > ME: Yes, it takes awhile for the
                      > realization to occur and sink in
                      > even after one decides to look
                      > for and analyze it via critical
                      > thinking while giving HK's/PT's
                      > redundant words a litmus test
                      > for truthiness.
                      >
                      >
                      > I recently left Eckankar. And, you were right….I read David Lane's paper as
                      well as Ford Johnson's "Confessions of a God Seeker" And, for some reason at
                      that time I remained in the group tying to focus on the so-called positive side
                      of the Eckankar, the hypnotic rederick that goes nowhere while ignoring the
                      facts.

                      > I then started to take a good look at Harold…looked into his "dark" eyes and
                      > listened to his figure of monotone speak and I realized it was very hypnotic,
                      > and at the same time very inviting. I wondered who or what was inside of those
                      > dark eyes….And they seem to always come as "the light". Yes, the "angel of
                      > light".
                      >
                      >
                      > ME: Klemp is no angel of light! He spreads
                      > darkness and delusion while denying Eckists
                      > their true nature as Soul. He gives (hope),
                      > promises (higher plane initiations), and then
                      > takes it all away (hope of ever getting beyond
                      > the 7th initiation while in this lifetime, unless,
                      > one pretends or imagines they are higher
                      > via vanity and frustration).
                      >
                      >
                      > I was in a satsang at that time and I found it disturbing more and more that
                      his
                      > same picture of himself, which by the way never changes, the one and only
                      > picture that has to be present at all Eckankar meetings was never questioned
                      by
                      > it's members. All the books we studied were written by him and only him !!!
                      And
                      > how some members were "higher" than others depending on their "initiation"
                      > number, even if these people knew absolutely nothing except what was written
                      in
                      > the books of Eckankar. Some of these people seemed to have anger issues too
                      > which didn't seem to fit the spiritual portrait of a saint they painted. I
                      > started to feel uncomfortable around these people cause they seemed more and
                      > more to me like mind-controlled slaves. And, they too could see that I was
                      > thinking and starting to pull away because I no longer looked to them without
                      > question, with blind authority.
                      >
                      >
                      > ME: Yes, that more youthful looking
                      > Official Picture of Klemp's is a vain act,
                      > but is never questioned because to do
                      > so would get one Black Listed on initiations.
                      > Those longtime Eckists who are part
                      > of the RESA Hierarchy know what I'm
                      > saying. Some H.I.s are fearful/cautious
                      > of the spies that report to the RESA and
                      > only share certain things (anti-Guideline
                      > comments, etc.) around those H.I.s they
                      > can trust.
                      >
                      >
                      > BTW- There are some books, that Klemp
                      > has approved of, written by non-Eck
                      > authors that Eckists can read. However,
                      > the Eckist must always focus upon the
                      > ECK or Mahanta when reading these
                      > books and, thus, give up free, unfettered,
                      > thought. Some of these books are
                      > recommended to those in leadership
                      > positions and are business oriented.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > So, it wasn't a good mix to say the very least. I finally had it out with one
                      of
                      > the members and I realized that I already left…In my heart, I choose to follow
                      > truth and I also realized that that in Eckankar, I was being deceived. And I
                      > realized that I couldn't have it both ways. I had to pick my convictions and
                      go
                      > with them. After all, why would I go against my own self, and what was in my
                      > heart?
                      >
                      >
                      > ME: It's the easy way to place an
                      > authority figure on a shelf higher
                      > than yourself. Less thinking and
                      > effort is involved when blind trust
                      > takes over. It's lazy but that's what
                      > people do. Look at how we allow
                      > the politicians to say and do as
                      > they please without taking responsibility.
                      > With Klemp, it's always the chela's
                      > fault and never his own! He slowed-
                      > down initiations in 1985, but doesn't
                      > need to explain why these haven't
                      > sped up because he answers to
                      > nobody else, except, Sugmad right?
                      >
                      >
                      > In Eckankar it is taught to open and follow your heart but yet, if you dare
                      open
                      > your mind and begin to ask challenging questions, you're in trouble because
                      > these people think the Mahanta in Eckankar is above all else and should never
                      be
                      > questioned, and your heart should be open to "him", the self appointed master,
                      > Harold Klemp. Even if the members of Eckankar are not honest with themselves
                      > enough to admit it consciously. On a subconscious level, they know better !!!
                      >
                      > ME: That following your heart
                      > thing is more about the Astral
                      > Heart Chakra... which is lower
                      > than the Third Eye or Tisra Til!
                      > Why didn't Klemp at least use
                      > the (Astral) Crown Chakra when
                      > having Eckists HU? After 30 years
                      > and HK still has Eckists HUing
                      > and focusing upon the 6th,
                      > Third Eye, Astral Chakra versus
                      > the 7th Crown Chakra!
                      >
                      >
                      > The shame of it all is that this deception is done in the name of an
                      > unconditional open heart to give love, which it is true, a part of GOD's flow
                      > but where's the truth ? What happened to that part of GOD ??? I guess it got
                      > lost in the sea of love…
                      >
                      >
                      > ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                      > "common language" but it's not
                      > quite true. ECK is not a common
                      > word and neither is Mahanta.
                      > And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                      > to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                      > others worship or think he is speaking
                      > about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                      > use the word GOD when it's not
                      > who or what they are referring
                      > to. It's like comparing apples
                      > to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                      > start out, and are trained, to be
                      > deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                      > fact alone makes Eckankar look
                      > very cult like. But, why the lie?
                      > The "common language" excuse
                      > doesn't hold water but Eckists
                      > can't question this underhanded
                      > practice or else they can have
                      > their position taken away and
                      > be Black Listed and shunned.
                      >
                      > Prometheus
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Hello prometheus_973;
                      > Remember me ? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writ
                      >
                      >
                      > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hello Rosemarie,
                      > > I am a seeker of Truth as well.
                      > > And yes, this article on "The Dark
                      > > Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
                      > > there is a dark side to Eckankar and
                      > > there is also fear.
                      > >
                      > > I find it interesting that you've
                      > > read (and I assume have contemplated
                      > > upon) David Lane's research as well as
                      > > Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
                      > > and have, still, remained an ECKist.
                      > >
                      > > What happened to your "critical thinking?"
                      > > Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
                      > > you agree with some of it but not all of
                      > > it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
                      > > I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
                      > > isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
                      > > what they believe than any other religion
                      > > they've found. Is that the case with you?
                      > >
                      > > I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
                      > > book, threw it away (because of the bad
                      > > vibes), and then placed themselves upon
                      > > pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
                      > > and talk Eckists through their doubts and
                      > > concerns.
                      > >
                      > > You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
                      > > not all truth is the same. That's why there
                      > > are so many churches. People are social
                      > > animals and tend to seek out others with
                      > > similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
                      > > to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
                      > > to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
                      > > and a test for Soul.
                      > >
                      > > I also got the impression that you don't
                      > > participate much within the RESA structure.
                      > > Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
                      > > Do you know that you have to watch what
                      > > you say? You've observed and learned that
                      > > correct? You do care about being promoted
                      > > to that next initiation right?
                      > >
                      > > Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
                      > > take on the subjects that we've been discussing
                      > > here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
                      > > lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
                      > > for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
                      > > Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
                      > > when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
                      > > "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
                      > > detectors just for his talk?
                      > >
                      > > You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                      > > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
                      > > at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."
                      > >
                      > > BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
                      > > read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?
                      > >
                      > > Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
                      > > the table.
                      > >
                      > > Prometheus
                      > >
                      > > rosemarie wrote:
                      > > Hi Diana,
                      > >
                      > > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on
                      this
                      > path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been
                      > to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that
                      > honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that
                      truth
                      > is truth and will always be the truth.
                      > >
                      > > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we
                      > follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching
                      > which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's
                      remember,
                      > we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much
                      to
                      > bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
                      > >
                      > > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it
                      hurts
                      > sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we
                      must
                      > be brave and remain in truth.
                      > >
                      > > Thank you for getting back to me.
                      > > Rosemarie
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > dianastanley wrote:
                      > >
                      > Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any
                      > direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from
                      > personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time. If it is
                      > hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew and was
                      > their experience I also say.
                      > >
                      > > Diana Stanley
                      > >
                      > > Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
                      > >
                      > > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who
                      > are searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
                      > findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
                      > thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.
                      > >
                      > I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                      > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
                      > have allot to bring to the table.
                      > >
                      > I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
                      > called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
                      > site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because
                      > I'd raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
                      > well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
                      > complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
                      > thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely
                      > objective.
                      >
                      > For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
                      > paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
                      > >
                      > I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
                      > within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on
                      > the facts.
                      > >
                      > I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
                      > the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
                      > belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking.
                      > Do you?
                      >
                    • etznab@aol.com
                      One of Paul Twitchell s first reported journey s with Rebazar Tarzs mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme. Check the index section for Ocean
                      Message 10 of 24 , Sep 14, 2011
                        One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar Tarzs
                        mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme. Check the
                        index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with the Master.

                        The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless region,
                        [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called THE FACE OF
                        GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying: [Quoting
                        >] "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the light of
                        God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes could not look
                        upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean of Love
                        and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return in time."
                        (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)

                        Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in the House
                        of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens. Ye cannot
                        go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with my divine
                        self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in the divine
                        cause!"

                        Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the Master, has
                        Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting snippet]:

                        "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in a
                        mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
                        attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
                        "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and after
                        this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul reaches
                        the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or the SUGMAD,
                        the supreme LORD of all that exists."

                        http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html

                        Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the description
                        slightly:

                        "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the Sat Nam in
                        a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in all Sat
                        Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the three
                        remaining known planes.
                        "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
                        after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam Purusha, or
                        lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region of the
                        nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first you know
                        about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the Divine.
                        "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."

                        http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html

                        Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is illustrated (by
                        Paul Twitchell) slightly different.

                        "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam Lok.
                        Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the end of its
                        journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the supreme
                        lord of all that exists."

                        http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html

                        The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok, Alak Lok,
                        Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with Ocean of
                        Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip mention of
                        Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.

                        In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master, Introduction to
                        Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes similarly, and
                        in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain sections from
                        The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:

                        "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit is
                        expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal, Nirala,
                        Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
                        Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country

                        http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html

                        "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many words, such
                        as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala, Anami, Agam,
                        Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar, Parameshwar,
                        Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters

                        http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html

                        Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent from the
                        Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR vs.
                        Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian Johnson's book,
                        The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The Far
                        Country, by at least three decades!

                        Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word, trademarked
                        it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is somehow more
                        than a paraphrase.











                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                        <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Wed, Sep 14, 2011 11:17 am
                        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: "The Dark Side of ECKankar" -
                        And More!

                         
                        Hello Postekcon and All,
                        Yes, it was always a conundrum
                        trying to recruit new members
                        via "spreading the word" i.e.
                        manure. However, we had
                        structured public workshops
                        and/or book discussions with
                        Guidelines spelling out what
                        to do and how to do it.

                        Some RESA areas did experimental
                        programs (special projects),
                        and if successful, the ESC
                        tweaked them to be used
                        elsewhere. It was all quite
                        time consuming and frustrating.
                        Local areas and the H.I.s were
                        always judged on the numbers
                        of newbies showing up for
                        these events. Most people
                        were repeats and were into
                        metaphysics or were the friends,
                        coworkers or relatives of Eckists.

                        I recall that one local area
                        of a neighboring state was
                        having a lot of success via
                        large turnouts of newbies.
                        They probably had a couple
                        of hundred newbies in one
                        year and that was practically
                        unheard of in Eckankar. Several
                        of these H.I.s were very proud
                        of the "high counts" they turned
                        in to the ESC. However, out
                        of all of those newbies only
                        about ten joined Eckankar
                        and only, maybe, one or two
                        remained after a year. These,
                        I doubt, remained for the
                        long haul. Let's face it, it's
                        a dead end religion where
                        one pretends, i.e. imagines
                        or visualizes, their desires
                        for "spiritual" progress and
                        "knowingness" or "realization"
                        of varying degrees. The initiation
                        game is the main, underlying,
                        theme. The problem, for Eckists,
                        is that dangling carrot when
                        initiations have been "slowed-
                        down" for 25 years and the
                        highest most can go is the 7th!

                        Those 7th initiates who had
                        hit the glass ceiling 20 or more
                        years ago have rationalized
                        it all away. They only stay in
                        EK because they have some
                        prestige, a lot of Eck friends,
                        and have paid their dues with
                        a lot of vahana and satsang
                        work over the years. Plus, they've
                        been taught to "imagine" and
                        visualize, therefore, all they
                        need to do is pretend they are
                        8ths (on the inner). Most pretend
                        they are higher than 8ths. After
                        all, Darwin skipped or sped up
                        initiations even for Klemp. So,
                        if it was valid, then, why not
                        today? Actually, just about all
                        Eckists pretent they are "higher"
                        than the number printed on
                        their Membership Cards.

                        Anyway, the reason why
                        the EK Youth effort has
                        gained some momentum
                        over the years is because
                        it's easier to brainwash a
                        controlled subject. However,
                        that doesn't always work,
                        either, when these young
                        Eckists see their parents
                        act so nutty and non-Eck
                        like. Plus, reclusive Klemp
                        puts a lot of pressure upon
                        them to do the vahana/
                        missionary thing when
                        it's tough enough getting
                        through school and those
                        teen years. Klemp doesn't
                        have any empathy. He was
                        in a Lutheran all boys high
                        school and never learned
                        about dating until he got
                        out of the Air Force (1968)
                        when he was 26 years old!

                        One has to wonder why
                        Klemp doesn't do his fair
                        share of public vahana work.
                        Why doesn't he have a radio
                        show or do and say something
                        in real time? The EK Seminars
                        don't count. That's for maybe
                        a hundred newbies who aren't
                        all that "new" and for his brain-
                        washed followers.

                        In theory, Klemp's real "spiritual"
                        mission is to help his followers
                        achieve God Realization. However,
                        what Initiation level is the indicator
                        that this has been accomplished?

                        According to Book 2, CH. 12 of
                        the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad (Eckankar's
                        Holy Book) their God, Sugmad,
                        resides on the 10th Plane, however,
                        Eckists must have the 11th Initiation
                        for "entrance into the Sugmad world,
                        which is the highest world of God,
                        if any, may enter."

                        Of course, that's not quite true either
                        since there're the 12th, 13th, and 14th
                        initiations after this one. This, then,
                        is where one (supposedly) enters into
                        Soul's true home called The Ocean of
                        love and Mercy. However, one can see
                        why EK Higher initiates (5-7) become
                        internally frustrated since, except for
                        a handful of people, they will never
                        even see the 8th initiation (in this
                        lifetime). That's the Catch/Con that
                        Twitchell invented and Klemp inherited.
                        Hope via promises for a better afterlife
                        while imagining day-to-day miracles
                        and dreaming about one's pre-programmed
                        expectations. It's how any and every
                        religion works.

                        Prometheus

                        "postekcon" wrote:
                        Re
                        >>>
                        ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                        "common language" but it's not
                        quite true. ECK is not a common
                        word and neither is Mahanta.
                        And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                        to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                        others worship or think he is speaking
                        about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                        use the word GOD when it's not
                        who or what they are referring
                        to. It's like comparing apples
                        to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                        start out, and are trained, to be
                        deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                        fact alone makes Eckankar look
                        very cult like. But, why the lie?
                        The "common language" excuse
                        doesn't hold water but Eckists
                        can't question this underhanded
                        practice or else they can have
                        their position taken away and
                        can be Black Listed and shunned.
                        >>>

                        For the past ten years, I have observed this pattern.

                        Hard working HIs (50-70yrs plus) busy putting on Intro Talks,
                        occasionally
                        enrolling a new recruit to ekult.

                        However, within a year or two, the new recruit leaves ekult as nothing
                        makes
                        sense! Of course, the HIs, unable to look at either themselves or
                        ekult, always
                        blame the new recruit with comments such as lack of unfoldment etc!

                        For the new recruit, the reason nothing makes sense, I've observed, is
                        thus. The
                        HIs bring the new recruit into Paul Twitchell/Darwin Gross ekult; the
                        ekult into
                        which they themselved were enrolled. Now this version of ekult promised
                        it had
                        the tools for self/god realization in this lifetime etc. However,
                        several MW
                        (Mystic World) issues later, the new recruit comes to understand these
                        'good
                        people' lied to them!
                        -Postekcon

                        In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                        <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hello All,
                        > Just thought I'd share some
                        > additional comments to what
                        > Starshine wrote.
                        >
                        > starshine917 wrote:
                        > Hello prometheus_973:
                        > Remember me? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writing to you
                        now….exactly, one
                        > year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I didn't
                        plan it like
                        > this but somehow it just worked out this way.
                        >
                        >
                        > ME: Yes, it takes awhile for the
                        > realization to occur and sink in
                        > even after one decides to look
                        > for and analyze it via critical
                        > thinking while giving HK's/PT's
                        > redundant words a litmus test
                        > for truthiness.
                        >
                        >
                        > I recently left Eckankar. And, you were right….I read David Lane's
                        paper as
                        well as Ford Johnson's "Confessions of a God Seeker" And, for some
                        reason at
                        that time I remained in the group tying to focus on the so-called
                        positive side
                        of the Eckankar, the hypnotic rederick that goes nowhere while ignoring
                        the
                        facts.

                        > I then started to take a good look at Harold…looked into his
                        "dark" eyes and
                        > listened to his figure of monotone speak and I realized it was
                        very hypnotic,
                        > and at the same time very inviting. I wondered who or what was
                        inside of those
                        > dark eyes….And they seem to always come as "the light". Yes, the
                        "angel of
                        > light".
                        >
                        >
                        > ME: Klemp is no angel of light! He spreads
                        > darkness and delusion while denying Eckists
                        > their true nature as Soul. He gives (hope),
                        > promises (higher plane initiations), and then
                        > takes it all away (hope of ever getting beyond
                        > the 7th initiation while in this lifetime, unless,
                        > one pretends or imagines they are higher
                        > via vanity and frustration).
                        >
                        >
                        > I was in a satsang at that time and I found it disturbing more and
                        more that
                        his
                        > same picture of himself, which by the way never changes, the one
                        and only
                        > picture that has to be present at all Eckankar meetings was never
                        questioned
                        by
                        > it's members. All the books we studied were written by him and
                        only him !!!
                        And
                        > how some members were "higher" than others depending on their
                        "initiation"
                        > number, even if these people knew absolutely nothing except what
                        was written
                        in
                        > the books of Eckankar. Some of these people seemed to have anger
                        issues too
                        > which didn't seem to fit the spiritual portrait of a saint they
                        painted. I
                        > started to feel uncomfortable around these people cause they
                        seemed more and
                        > more to me like mind-controlled slaves. And, they too could see
                        that I was
                        > thinking and starting to pull away because I no longer looked to
                        them without
                        > question, with blind authority.
                        >
                        >
                        > ME: Yes, that more youthful looking
                        > Official Picture of Klemp's is a vain act,
                        > but is never questioned because to do
                        > so would get one Black Listed on initiations.
                        > Those longtime Eckists who are part
                        > of the RESA Hierarchy know what I'm
                        > saying. Some H.I.s are fearful/cautious
                        > of the spies that report to the RESA and
                        > only share certain things (anti-Guideline
                        > comments, etc.) around those H.I.s they
                        > can trust.
                        >
                        >
                        > BTW- There are some books, that Klemp
                        > has approved of, written by non-Eck
                        > authors that Eckists can read. However,
                        > the Eckist must always focus upon the
                        > ECK or Mahanta when reading these
                        > books and, thus, give up free, unfettered,
                        > thought. Some of these books are
                        > recommended to those in leadership
                        > positions and are business oriented.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > So, it wasn't a good mix to say the very least. I finally had it
                        out with one
                        of
                        > the members and I realized that I already left…In my heart, I
                        choose to follow
                        > truth and I also realized that that in Eckankar, I was being
                        deceived. And I
                        > realized that I couldn't have it both ways. I had to pick my
                        convictions and
                        go
                        > with them. After all, why would I go against my own self, and what
                        was in my
                        > heart?
                        >
                        >
                        > ME: It's the easy way to place an
                        > authority figure on a shelf higher
                        > than yourself. Less thinking and
                        > effort is involved when blind trust
                        > takes over. It's lazy but that's what
                        > people do. Look at how we allow
                        > the politicians to say and do as
                        > they please without taking responsibility.
                        > With Klemp, it's always the chela's
                        > fault and never his own! He slowed-
                        > down initiations in 1985, but doesn't
                        > need to explain why these haven't
                        > sped up because he answers to
                        > nobody else, except, Sugmad right?
                        >
                        >
                        > In Eckankar it is taught to open and follow your heart but yet, if
                        you dare
                        open
                        > your mind and begin to ask challenging questions, you're in
                        trouble because
                        > these people think the Mahanta in Eckankar is above all else and
                        should never
                        be
                        > questioned, and your heart should be open to "him", the self
                        appointed master,
                        > Harold Klemp. Even if the members of Eckankar are not honest with
                        themselves
                        > enough to admit it consciously. On a subconscious level, they know
                        better !!!
                        >
                        > ME: That following your heart
                        > thing is more about the Astral
                        > Heart Chakra... which is lower
                        > than the Third Eye or Tisra Til!
                        > Why didn't Klemp at least use
                        > the (Astral) Crown Chakra when
                        > having Eckists HU? After 30 years
                        > and HK still has Eckists HUing
                        > and focusing upon the 6th,
                        > Third Eye, Astral Chakra versus
                        > the 7th Crown Chakra!
                        >
                        >
                        > The shame of it all is that this deception is done in the name of
                        an
                        > unconditional open heart to give love, which it is true, a part of
                        GOD's flow
                        > but where's the truth ? What happened to that part of GOD ??? I
                        guess it got
                        > lost in the sea of love…
                        >
                        >
                        > ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                        > "common language" but it's not
                        > quite true. ECK is not a common
                        > word and neither is Mahanta.
                        > And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                        > to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                        > others worship or think he is speaking
                        > about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                        > use the word GOD when it's not
                        > who or what they are referring
                        > to. It's like comparing apples
                        > to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                        > start out, and are trained, to be
                        > deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                        > fact alone makes Eckankar look
                        > very cult like. But, why the lie?
                        > The "common language" excuse
                        > doesn't hold water but Eckists
                        > can't question this underhanded
                        > practice or else they can have
                        > their position taken away and
                        > be Black Listed and shunned.
                        >
                        > Prometheus
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Hello prometheus_973;
                        > Remember me ? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writ
                        >
                        >
                        > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Hello Rosemarie,
                        > > I am a seeker of Truth as well.
                        > > And yes, this article on "The Dark
                        > > Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
                        > > there is a dark side to Eckankar and
                        > > there is also fear.
                        > >
                        > > I find it interesting that you've
                        > > read (and I assume have contemplated
                        > > upon) David Lane's research as well as
                        > > Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
                        > > and have, still, remained an ECKist.
                        > >
                        > > What happened to your "critical thinking?"
                        > > Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
                        > > you agree with some of it but not all of
                        > > it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
                        > > I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
                        > > isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
                        > > what they believe than any other religion
                        > > they've found. Is that the case with you?
                        > >
                        > > I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
                        > > book, threw it away (because of the bad
                        > > vibes), and then placed themselves upon
                        > > pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
                        > > and talk Eckists through their doubts and
                        > > concerns.
                        > >
                        > > You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
                        > > not all truth is the same. That's why there
                        > > are so many churches. People are social
                        > > animals and tend to seek out others with
                        > > similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
                        > > to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
                        > > to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
                        > > and a test for Soul.
                        > >
                        > > I also got the impression that you don't
                        > > participate much within the RESA structure.
                        > > Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
                        > > Do you know that you have to watch what
                        > > you say? You've observed and learned that
                        > > correct? You do care about being promoted
                        > > to that next initiation right?
                        > >
                        > > Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
                        > > take on the subjects that we've been discussing
                        > > here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
                        > > lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
                        > > for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
                        > > Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
                        > > when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
                        > > "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
                        > > detectors just for his talk?
                        > >
                        > > You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                        > > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
                        > > at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."
                        > >
                        > > BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
                        > > read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?
                        > >
                        > > Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
                        > > the table.
                        > >
                        > > Prometheus
                        > >
                        > > rosemarie wrote:
                        > > Hi Diana,
                        > >
                        > > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar
                        and while on
                        this
                        > path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as
                        well. I've been
                        > to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I
                        agree that
                        > honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also
                        understand that
                        truth
                        > is truth and will always be the truth.
                        > >
                        > > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless
                        of what path we
                        > follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are
                        all searching
                        > which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and
                        let's
                        remember,
                        > we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We
                        have so much
                        to
                        > bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and
                        experience.
                        > >
                        > > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it
                        even if it
                        hurts
                        > sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back
                        to GOD, we
                        must
                        > be brave and remain in truth.
                        > >
                        > > Thank you for getting back to me.
                        > > Rosemarie
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > dianastanley wrote:
                        > >
                        > Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you
                        have any
                        > direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it
                        is from
                        > personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time.
                        If it is
                        > hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew
                        and was
                        > their experience I also say.
                        > >
                        > > Diana Stanley
                        > >
                        > > Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
                        > >
                        > > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for
                        those of you who
                        > are searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for
                        sharing your
                        > findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light"
                        of critical
                        > thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.
                        > >
                        > I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar
                        has issues.
                        > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this
                        site, so we
                        > have allot to bring to the table.
                        > >
                        > I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used
                        in this paper
                        > called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links"
                        in this web
                        > site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of
                        challenge because
                        > I'd raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this
                        paper as
                        > well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be
                        painted with
                        > complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of
                        critical
                        > thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being
                        completely
                        > objective.
                        >
                        > For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack
                        ECKankar in this
                        > paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they
                        originated.
                        > >
                        > I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure
                        is overdo
                        > within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is
                        based on
                        > the facts.
                        > >
                        > I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't
                        think
                        > the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within
                        one religious
                        > belief system and exchange them for another in the name of
                        critical thinking.
                        > Do you?
                        >
                      • prometheus_973
                        Hello Etznab and All, It is interesting that Twitchell has his Rebazar character (the Master who initiated him) indicate that there were 8 Planes just as
                        Message 11 of 24 , Sep 16, 2011
                          Hello Etznab and All,
                          It is interesting that Twitchell
                          has his Rebazar character (the
                          "Master" who initiated him)
                          indicate that there were 8 Planes
                          just as Radhasomi and Ruhani
                          Satsang have listed in "The Path
                          of the Masters." Since Kirpal
                          Singh, of Ruhani Satsang, was
                          Paul's real life Master for ten years
                          it's no wonder that this dogma was
                          influential in the design of Eckankar.

                          Of course, Twitchell was constantly
                          tweaking, revising, and masking his
                          religious con as time went by.

                          The Anami Lok (10th Plane where
                          "Sugmad" resides) didn't appear until
                          later. Did Rebazar simply forget to
                          mention this as well as the "Mahanta?"
                          Did RT think that Paul needed to be
                          spoon-fed and wasn't ready for this
                          advanced "spiritual" info? No, not really.
                          According to Twitchell he had been
                          given the 12th and "final initiation"
                          (to become LEM) back in 1951 by
                          Rebazar while on his "2nd" visit to
                          India. See, the timeline is off for this
                          ekplanation to be taken seriously as
                          well.

                          Therefore, there is no rational excuse
                          for these inconsistencies except to
                          admit that the "rascal" Twitchell was,
                          once again, "exaggerating" and "twisting
                          facts" as even Klemp has described
                          and said of him. Klemp, years ago,
                          had to admit that Twitchell was a self-
                          promoter and did or said whatever
                          he needed to do ("By Any Means Necessary")
                          in order to get Eckankar off the ground.

                          This is why Klemp, at first, had a
                          difficult job of explaining Twitchell's
                          inconsistencies and needed to keep
                          Eckists confused, busy, and off-balance.
                          Now, Eckists are so brainwashed that
                          Klemp can say whatever in his simple
                          minded redundant versions of feel-good
                          New Age spirituality.


                          Prometheus



                          etznab wrote:

                          One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar Tarzs
                          mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme. Check the
                          index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with the Master.

                          The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless region,
                          [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called THE FACE OF
                          GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying: [Quoting]
                          "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the light of
                          God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes could not look
                          upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean of Love
                          and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return in time."
                          (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)

                          Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in the House
                          of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens. Ye cannot
                          go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with my divine
                          self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in the divine
                          cause!"

                          Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the Master, has
                          Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting snippet]:

                          "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in a
                          mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
                          attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
                          "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and after
                          this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul reaches
                          the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or the SUGMAD,
                          the supreme LORD of all that exists."

                          http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html

                          Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the description
                          slightly:

                          "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the Sat Nam in
                          a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in all Sat
                          Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the three
                          remaining known planes.

                          "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
                          after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam Purusha, or
                          lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region of the
                          nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first you know
                          about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the Divine.

                          "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."

                          http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html

                          Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is illustrated (by
                          Paul Twitchell) slightly different.

                          "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam Lok.
                          Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the end of its
                          journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the supreme
                          lord of all that exists."

                          http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html

                          The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok, Alak Lok,
                          Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with Ocean of
                          Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip mention of
                          Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.

                          In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master, Introduction to
                          Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes similarly, and
                          in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain sections from
                          The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:

                          "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit is
                          expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal, Nirala,
                          Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
                          Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country

                          http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html

                          "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many words, such
                          as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala, Anami, Agam,
                          Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar, Parameshwar,
                          Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters

                          http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html

                          Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent from the
                          Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR vs.
                          Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian Johnson's book,
                          The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The Far
                          Country, by at least three decades!

                          Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word, trademarked
                          it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is somehow more
                          than a paraphrase.
                        • etznab18
                          Almost didn t see this response because the e-mail bounced. Umm ... about the self-promotion, whatever, people can read about some of the history here.
                          Message 12 of 24 , Sep 16, 2011
                            Almost didn't see this response because the e-mail bounced.

                            Umm ... about the self-promotion, whatever, people can read about some of the history here.

                            http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html

                            Check out 4th paragraph of article entitled: Paul's Seal of Approval.

                            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hello Etznab and All,
                            > It is interesting that Twitchell
                            > has his Rebazar character (the
                            > "Master" who initiated him)
                            > indicate that there were 8 Planes
                            > just as Radhasomi and Ruhani
                            > Satsang have listed in "The Path
                            > of the Masters." Since Kirpal
                            > Singh, of Ruhani Satsang, was
                            > Paul's real life Master for ten years
                            > it's no wonder that this dogma was
                            > influential in the design of Eckankar.
                            >
                            > Of course, Twitchell was constantly
                            > tweaking, revising, and masking his
                            > religious con as time went by.
                            >
                            > The Anami Lok (10th Plane where
                            > "Sugmad" resides) didn't appear until
                            > later. Did Rebazar simply forget to
                            > mention this as well as the "Mahanta?"
                            > Did RT think that Paul needed to be
                            > spoon-fed and wasn't ready for this
                            > advanced "spiritual" info? No, not really.
                            > According to Twitchell he had been
                            > given the 12th and "final initiation"
                            > (to become LEM) back in 1951 by
                            > Rebazar while on his "2nd" visit to
                            > India. See, the timeline is off for this
                            > ekplanation to be taken seriously as
                            > well.
                            >
                            > Therefore, there is no rational excuse
                            > for these inconsistencies except to
                            > admit that the "rascal" Twitchell was,
                            > once again, "exaggerating" and "twisting
                            > facts" as even Klemp has described
                            > and said of him. Klemp, years ago,
                            > had to admit that Twitchell was a self-
                            > promoter and did or said whatever
                            > he needed to do ("By Any Means Necessary")
                            > in order to get Eckankar off the ground.
                            >
                            > This is why Klemp, at first, had a
                            > difficult job of explaining Twitchell's
                            > inconsistencies and needed to keep
                            > Eckists confused, busy, and off-balance.
                            > Now, Eckists are so brainwashed that
                            > Klemp can say whatever in his simple
                            > minded redundant versions of feel-good
                            > New Age spirituality.
                            >
                            >
                            > Prometheus
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > etznab wrote:
                            >
                            > One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar Tarzs
                            > mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme. Check the
                            > index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with the Master.
                            >
                            > The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless region,
                            > [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called THE FACE OF
                            > GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying: [Quoting]
                            > "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the light of
                            > God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes could not look
                            > upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean of Love
                            > and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return in time."
                            > (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)
                            >
                            > Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in the House
                            > of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens. Ye cannot
                            > go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with my divine
                            > self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in the divine
                            > cause!"
                            >
                            > Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the Master, has
                            > Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting snippet]:
                            >
                            > "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in a
                            > mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
                            > attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
                            > "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and after
                            > this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul reaches
                            > the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or the SUGMAD,
                            > the supreme LORD of all that exists."
                            >
                            > http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html
                            >
                            > Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the description
                            > slightly:
                            >
                            > "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the Sat Nam in
                            > a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in all Sat
                            > Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the three
                            > remaining known planes.
                            >
                            > "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
                            > after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam Purusha, or
                            > lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region of the
                            > nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first you know
                            > about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the Divine.
                            >
                            > "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."
                            >
                            > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                            >
                            > Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is illustrated (by
                            > Paul Twitchell) slightly different.
                            >
                            > "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam Lok.
                            > Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the end of its
                            > journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the supreme
                            > lord of all that exists."
                            >
                            > http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html
                            >
                            > The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok, Alak Lok,
                            > Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with Ocean of
                            > Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip mention of
                            > Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.
                            >
                            > In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master, Introduction to
                            > Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes similarly, and
                            > in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain sections from
                            > The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:
                            >
                            > "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit is
                            > expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal, Nirala,
                            > Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
                            > Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country
                            >
                            > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                            >
                            > "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many words, such
                            > as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala, Anami, Agam,
                            > Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar, Parameshwar,
                            > Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters
                            >
                            > http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html
                            >
                            > Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent from the
                            > Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR vs.
                            > Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian Johnson's book,
                            > The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The Far
                            > Country, by at least three decades!
                            >
                            > Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word, trademarked
                            > it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is somehow more
                            > than a paraphrase.
                            >
                          • prometheus_973
                            Hello Etznab and All, This tells how Paul Twitchell was His Own Drum Beater: http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html What s interesting is that at
                            Message 13 of 24 , Sep 17, 2011
                              Hello Etznab and All,
                              This tells how Paul Twitchell
                              was His Own Drum Beater:

                              http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html

                              What's interesting is that at age 27 (1935)
                              Twitchell was saying that he had been
                              to India (supposedly at age 15 to meet
                              Rebazar for the first time, DOBTLEM).
                              However, Klemp points out that Twitchell
                              was doing another self-promotion, and
                              was lying in order to get into Who's Who
                              in Kentucky. Klemp states that Twitchell
                              had never been all that far from home
                              at age 27. Klemp seems to have stepped
                              into a big pile of Twits mess. HK's
                              statement contradicts what Twitchell
                              revealed in Difficulties of Becoming the
                              Living ECK Master circa July, 1971. This
                              1971 date is, supposedly, long after Twitchell
                              (the Mahanta) was was no longer "exaggerating"
                              and "twisting facts." However, as Klemp
                              has pointed out Twitchell was still lying
                              and promoting his con up until his untimely
                              and death in September, 1971.

                              Prometheus

                              etznab@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Almost didn't see this response because the e-mail bounced.
                              >
                              > Umm ... about the self-promotion, whatever, people can read about some of the history here.
                              >
                              > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html
                              >
                              > Check out 4th paragraph of article entitled: Paul's Seal of Approval.
                              >
                              > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Hello Etznab and All,
                              > > It is interesting that Twitchell
                              > > has his Rebazar character (the
                              > > "Master" who initiated him)
                              > > indicate that there were 8 Planes
                              > > just as Radhasomi and Ruhani
                              > > Satsang have listed in "The Path
                              > > of the Masters." Since Kirpal
                              > > Singh, of Ruhani Satsang, was
                              > > Paul's real life Master for ten years
                              > > it's no wonder that this dogma was
                              > > influential in the design of Eckankar.
                              > >
                              > > Of course, Twitchell was constantly
                              > > tweaking, revising, and masking his
                              > > religious con as time went by.
                              > >
                              > > The Anami Lok (10th Plane where
                              > > "Sugmad" resides) didn't appear until
                              > > later. Did Rebazar simply forget to
                              > > mention this as well as the "Mahanta?"
                              > > Did RT think that Paul needed to be
                              > > spoon-fed and wasn't ready for this
                              > > advanced "spiritual" info? No, not really.
                              > > According to Twitchell he had been
                              > > given the 12th and "final initiation"
                              > > (to become LEM) back in 1951 by
                              > > Rebazar while on his "2nd" visit to
                              > > India. See, the timeline is off for this
                              > > ekplanation to be taken seriously as
                              > > well.
                              > >
                              > > Therefore, there is no rational excuse
                              > > for these inconsistencies except to
                              > > admit that the "rascal" Twitchell was,
                              > > once again, "exaggerating" and "twisting
                              > > facts" as even Klemp has described
                              > > and said of him. Klemp, years ago,
                              > > had to admit that Twitchell was a self-
                              > > promoter and did or said whatever
                              > > he needed to do ("By Any Means Necessary")
                              > > in order to get Eckankar off the ground.
                              > >
                              > > This is why Klemp, at first, had a
                              > > difficult job of explaining Twitchell's
                              > > inconsistencies and needed to keep
                              > > Eckists confused, busy, and off-balance.
                              > > Now, Eckists are so brainwashed that
                              > > Klemp can say whatever in his simple
                              > > minded redundant versions of feel-good
                              > > New Age spirituality.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Prometheus
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > etznab wrote:
                              > >
                              > > One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar Tarzs
                              > > mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme. Check the
                              > > index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with the Master.
                              > >
                              > > The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless region,
                              > > [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called THE FACE OF
                              > > GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying: [Quoting]
                              > > "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the light of
                              > > God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes could not look
                              > > upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean of Love
                              > > and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return in time."
                              > > (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)
                              > >
                              > > Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in the House
                              > > of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens. Ye cannot
                              > > go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with my divine
                              > > self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in the divine
                              > > cause!"
                              > >
                              > > Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the Master, has
                              > > Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting snippet]:
                              > >
                              > > "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in a
                              > > mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
                              > > attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
                              > > "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and after
                              > > this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul reaches
                              > > the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or the SUGMAD,
                              > > the supreme LORD of all that exists."
                              > >
                              > > http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html
                              > >
                              > > Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the description
                              > > slightly:
                              > >
                              > > "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the Sat Nam in
                              > > a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in all Sat
                              > > Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the three
                              > > remaining known planes.
                              > >
                              > > "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
                              > > after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam Purusha, or
                              > > lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region of the
                              > > nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first you know
                              > > about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the Divine.
                              > >
                              > > "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."
                              > >
                              > > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                              > >
                              > > Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is illustrated (by
                              > > Paul Twitchell) slightly different.
                              > >
                              > > "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam Lok.
                              > > Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the end of its
                              > > journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the supreme
                              > > lord of all that exists."
                              > >
                              > > http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html
                              > >
                              > > The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok, Alak Lok,
                              > > Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with Ocean of
                              > > Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip mention of
                              > > Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.
                              > >
                              > > In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master, Introduction to
                              > > Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes similarly, and
                              > > in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain sections from
                              > > The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:
                              > >
                              > > "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit is
                              > > expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal, Nirala,
                              > > Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
                              > > Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country
                              > >
                              > > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                              > >
                              > > "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many words, such
                              > > as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala, Anami, Agam,
                              > > Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar, Parameshwar,
                              > > Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters
                              > >
                              > > http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html
                              > >
                              > > Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent from the
                              > > Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR vs.
                              > > Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian Johnson's book,
                              > > The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The Far
                              > > Country, by at least three decades!
                              > >
                              > > Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word, trademarked
                              > > it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is somehow more
                              > > than a paraphrase.
                              > >
                              >
                            • etznab@aol.com
                              I think a lot of people can overlook this stuff, thinking that whatever Paul Twitchell said/wrote must be the truth. Some people just might not care. Well,
                              Message 14 of 24 , Sep 17, 2011
                                I think a lot of people can overlook this stuff, thinking that whatever
                                Paul Twitchell said/wrote must be the truth. Some people just might not
                                care. Well, it's reasonable to suspect this talent - for promotion,
                                even when it means making things up, stretching the truth, or just
                                plain spinning lies - was used to "create" the Eckankar mythos.

                                myth

                                1830, from Gk. mythos "speech, thought, story, myth," of unknown origin.

                                Myths are "stories about divine beings, generally arranged in a
                                coherent system; they are revered as true and sacred; they are endorsed
                                by rulers and priests; and closely linked to religion. Once this link
                                is broken, and the actors in the story are not regarded as gods but as
                                human heroes, giants or fairies, it is no longer a myth but a folktale.
                                Where the central actor is divine but the story is trivial ... the
                                result is religious legend, not myth." [J. Simpson & S. Roud,
                                "Dictionary of English Folklore," Oxford, 2000, p.254]

                                General sense of "untrue story, rumor" is from 1840.

                                http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=mythos&searchmode=none

                                In other words, amid all the compilations and recycled material, etc.,
                                context has been changed (in various places) when it comes to source. I
                                wonder, could Paul Twitchell have created "Eckankar" and at the same
                                time given the source for all of his material? I noticed Kirpal Singh
                                and others were very good at citing references and sharing what
                                quote/saying came from who. So if Paul Twitchell ever chose to use
                                passages and paragraphs from books, Did he always feel obligated to
                                provide that information?

                                As a promoter, I suspect the person wants to give credit to whatever
                                they're promoting and not give more credit to "other products" instead.
                                It makes sense (to me) that Paul Twitchell would "paint the name
                                Eckankar" over so much material he had read (in so many words). Not
                                only this, but it even appears probable that Paul Twitchell took
                                liberty to respell and redefine words according to fit them in a new,
                                and growing, Eckankar philosophy. Not only words, but names too!

                                How extensive the promotion and PR campaign that created contemporary
                                Eckankar teaching? In so many ways, it seems this is the part that
                                doesn't agree with people. Not unless they knew from the beginning that
                                information was not necessarily accurate and in some places embellished.

                                embellish

                                mid-14c., "to render beautiful," from O.Fr. embelliss-, stem of
                                embellir "make beautiful, ornament," from em- (see en- (1)) + bel
                                "beautiful," from L. bellus (see bene-). Meaning "dress up (a
                                narration) with fictitious matter" is from mid-15c. Related:
                                Embellished; embellishing.

                                http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=embellished&searchmode=none

                                Reading through early Eckankar books I think common sense might tell a
                                person that parts of the material was embellished. At the same time I
                                also think people could naturally so much want the material to be true
                                that they allow imagination to "make it so" and overrule common sense.

                                Ever observe what happens when you're part of a group where countless
                                individuals believe in things - through imagination - that aren't
                                necessarily true? I mean, when you're one of the unbelievers and part
                                of the minority who question whether so many imagined things are true?


                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                                <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Sat, Sep 17, 2011 2:14 am
                                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: "The Dark Side of ECKankar" -
                                And More!

                                 
                                Hello Etznab and All,
                                This tells how Paul Twitchell
                                was His Own Drum Beater:

                                http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html

                                What's interesting is that at age 27 (1935)
                                Twitchell was saying that he had been
                                to India (supposedly at age 15 to meet
                                Rebazar for the first time, DOBTLEM).
                                However, Klemp points out that Twitchell
                                was doing another self-promotion, and
                                was lying in order to get into Who's Who
                                in Kentucky. Klemp states that Twitchell
                                had never been all that far from home
                                at age 27. Klemp seems to have stepped
                                into a big pile of Twits mess. HK's
                                statement contradicts what Twitchell
                                revealed in Difficulties of Becoming the
                                Living ECK Master circa July, 1971. This
                                1971 date is, supposedly, long after Twitchell
                                (the Mahanta) was was no longer "exaggerating"
                                and "twisting facts." However, as Klemp
                                has pointed out Twitchell was still lying
                                and promoting his con up until his untimely
                                and death in September, 1971.

                                Prometheus

                                etznab@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Almost didn't see this response because the e-mail bounced.
                                >
                                > Umm ... about the self-promotion, whatever, people can read about
                                some of the history here.
                                >
                                > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html
                                >
                                > Check out 4th paragraph of article entitled: Paul's Seal of
                                Approval.
                                >
                                > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                                "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Hello Etznab and All,
                                > > It is interesting that Twitchell
                                > > has his Rebazar character (the
                                > > "Master" who initiated him)
                                > > indicate that there were 8 Planes
                                > > just as Radhasomi and Ruhani
                                > > Satsang have listed in "The Path
                                > > of the Masters." Since Kirpal
                                > > Singh, of Ruhani Satsang, was
                                > > Paul's real life Master for ten years
                                > > it's no wonder that this dogma was
                                > > influential in the design of Eckankar.
                                > >
                                > > Of course, Twitchell was constantly
                                > > tweaking, revising, and masking his
                                > > religious con as time went by.
                                > >
                                > > The Anami Lok (10th Plane where
                                > > "Sugmad" resides) didn't appear until
                                > > later. Did Rebazar simply forget to
                                > > mention this as well as the "Mahanta?"
                                > > Did RT think that Paul needed to be
                                > > spoon-fed and wasn't ready for this
                                > > advanced "spiritual" info? No, not really.
                                > > According to Twitchell he had been
                                > > given the 12th and "final initiation"
                                > > (to become LEM) back in 1951 by
                                > > Rebazar while on his "2nd" visit to
                                > > India. See, the timeline is off for this
                                > > ekplanation to be taken seriously as
                                > > well.
                                > >
                                > > Therefore, there is no rational excuse
                                > > for these inconsistencies except to
                                > > admit that the "rascal" Twitchell was,
                                > > once again, "exaggerating" and "twisting
                                > > facts" as even Klemp has described
                                > > and said of him. Klemp, years ago,
                                > > had to admit that Twitchell was a self-
                                > > promoter and did or said whatever
                                > > he needed to do ("By Any Means Necessary")
                                > > in order to get Eckankar off the ground.
                                > >
                                > > This is why Klemp, at first, had a
                                > > difficult job of explaining Twitchell's
                                > > inconsistencies and needed to keep
                                > > Eckists confused, busy, and off-balance.
                                > > Now, Eckists are so brainwashed that
                                > > Klemp can say whatever in his simple
                                > > minded redundant versions of feel-good
                                > > New Age spirituality.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Prometheus
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > etznab wrote:
                                > >
                                > > One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar
                                Tarzs
                                > > mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme.
                                Check the
                                > > index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with
                                the Master.
                                > >
                                > > The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless
                                region,
                                > > [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called
                                THE FACE OF
                                > > GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying:
                                [Quoting]
                                > > "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the
                                light of
                                > > God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes
                                could not look
                                > > upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean
                                of Love
                                > > and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return
                                in time."
                                > > (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)
                                > >
                                > > Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in
                                the House
                                > > of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens.
                                Ye cannot
                                > > go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with
                                my divine
                                > > self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in
                                the divine
                                > > cause!"
                                > >
                                > > Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the
                                Master, has
                                > > Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting
                                snippet]:
                                > >
                                > > "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in
                                a
                                > > mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
                                > > attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
                                > > "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
                                after
                                > > this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul
                                reaches
                                > > the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or
                                the SUGMAD,
                                > > the supreme LORD of all that exists."
                                > >
                                > > http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html
                                > >
                                > > Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the
                                description
                                > > slightly:
                                > >
                                > > "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the
                                Sat Nam in
                                > > a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in
                                all Sat
                                > > Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the
                                three
                                > > remaining known planes.
                                > >
                                > > "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha,
                                and
                                > > after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam
                                Purusha, or
                                > > lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region
                                of the
                                > > nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first
                                you know
                                > > about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the
                                Divine.
                                > >
                                > > "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."
                                > >
                                > > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                > >
                                > > Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is
                                illustrated (by
                                > > Paul Twitchell) slightly different.
                                > >
                                > > "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam
                                Lok.
                                > > Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the
                                end of its
                                > > journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the
                                supreme
                                > > lord of all that exists."
                                > >
                                > > http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html
                                > >
                                > > The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok,
                                Alak Lok,
                                > > Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with
                                Ocean of
                                > > Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip
                                mention of
                                > > Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.
                                > >
                                > > In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master,
                                Introduction to
                                > > Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes
                                similarly, and
                                > > in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain
                                sections from
                                > > The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:
                                > >
                                > > "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit
                                is
                                > > expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal,
                                Nirala,
                                > > Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
                                > > Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country
                                > >
                                > > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                > >
                                > > "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many
                                words, such
                                > > as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala,
                                Anami, Agam,
                                > > Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar,
                                Parameshwar,
                                > > Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters
                                > >
                                > > http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html
                                > >
                                > > Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent
                                from the
                                > > Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR
                                vs.
                                > > Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian
                                Johnson's book,
                                > > The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The
                                Far
                                > > Country, by at least three decades!
                                > >
                                > > Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word,
                                trademarked
                                > > it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is
                                somehow more
                                > > than a paraphrase.
                                > >
                                >
                              • prometheus_973
                                Hello Etznab and All, It s true that most Eckists have turned a blind eye towards their religion. However, it s done via Klemp s subtle and not so subtle
                                Message 15 of 24 , Sep 17, 2011
                                  Hello Etznab and All,
                                  It's true that most Eckists have
                                  turned a blind eye towards their
                                  religion. However, it's done via
                                  Klemp's subtle and not so subtle
                                  intimidation tactics such as:

                                  Going to the "inner" to have
                                  one's questions answered...
                                  this is what the more "advanced"
                                  and "enlightened" Eckists do.

                                  Using the Buddha quote of, "Is
                                  it true, is it necessary, is it kind"
                                  this I ask myself before I speak
                                  my mind.

                                  HK writing articles and giving
                                  talks on the negativity of gossip
                                  and how it hinders one's "spiritual"
                                  growth.

                                  Also, there's the unspoken knowledge
                                  that those who ask too many questions,
                                  especially "wrong" questions, will get
                                  Eckists Black Listed on initiations or
                                  to have them slowed down 3-5 years
                                  (on average) longer than normal.

                                  Plus, Eckankar's Higher Initiates
                                  (5-7) are a very passive group
                                  and don't want to question the
                                  foundation of their religion because
                                  things are going okay so why rock
                                  the boat? Being an H.I. is an ego
                                  trip and a security blanket too.

                                  And, let's face it, most Eckists don't
                                  have the time or inclination to research
                                  the old, P.T., Eckankar texts. They've
                                  read it all before so why go back and
                                  read it with new eyes and a changed
                                  consciousness? However, it does make
                                  one wonder why they've allowed them-
                                  selves to be shackled to HK's dogma
                                  when it's all based upon Twitchell's
                                  "compilation."

                                  In PT's Eckankar Dictionary, Shariyat
                                  One and HK's First Lexicon, they
                                  tell about the first "root race" called
                                  the "POLARIANS." Klemp must agree
                                  with Twitchell on this dogmatic information
                                  since he put it into his own Eckankar
                                  Lexicon.

                                  But, do Eckists really believe in the
                                  Old Testament Christian Myth about
                                  the Garden of Eden? Actually, no,
                                  they don't! I've even read where
                                  they've made fun of this. How ironic!
                                  Twitchell not only states that the
                                  Garden of Eden existed but gives
                                  his own (revised) names of those
                                  present. In the ECK version Adam
                                  becomes "Adom" and Eve becomes
                                  "Ede" (like in Eden) This is, of course,
                                  a clear picture of how Twitchell created
                                  Eckankar. He took certain words,
                                  names, and information changed
                                  the text and letters around, or added
                                  and omitted letters, and made the
                                  info his own.

                                  What's really funny is that in defense
                                  of Twitchell Klemp has claimed that
                                  Paul "compiled" only the highest teachings
                                  from around the world in order to
                                  create the highest "spiritual" teaching
                                  anywhere and at anytime. Why then,
                                  did Twitchell use the Garden of Eden
                                  myth, and create Adom and Ede?
                                  Is this supposed to be the actual
                                  account while the Christian version
                                  is less accurate. This is how Eckists
                                  rationalize and explain everything
                                  (the truth) away. ECK is a facsimile
                                  and everything else is a copy. But
                                  this shows that all religions are
                                  distorted and inaccurate copies.

                                  It really should be embarrassing,
                                  for Eckists, since this information
                                  is listed in their first Holy Book
                                  under Polarian race (check the
                                  index for the page number).

                                  Plus, let's face it. This Garden
                                  of Eden myth is a non-evolutionary
                                  belief. It was devised during
                                  a time of ignorance and pre-science
                                  in order to give a religious explanation
                                  for creation. And, it's been revised
                                  even by early Christianity because
                                  Lillith was supposed to have been
                                  Adam's first mate who was created
                                  equally with him.

                                  Later, the creation myth story was
                                  changed so that Eve was created
                                  from Adam's rib in order to make
                                  her subservient to him... as Eckists
                                  are to subservient to Klemp. Thus,
                                  no female LEMs and even Mahantas
                                  are permitted due to some hokey
                                  negative atom ekplanation.


                                  But, Eckists are in denial of the truth
                                  as they continue to pretend they
                                  are advanced Souls. The mind is
                                  very powerful and that's why Eckankar
                                  appears to work for Eckists. The
                                  mind will give one the dreams
                                  and "signs" that are programmed
                                  into it via suggestion and expectation.
                                  However, isn't this the modus
                                  operandi of all religions? If one
                                  just Googles "miracles" one can
                                  see examples of faith and belief
                                  that would put any Eckist to shame.

                                  Therefore, why do Eckists not
                                  see the truth? Is it that they
                                  have tied up their camels, to
                                  a fraudent belief, and now, trust
                                  in a make believe God/Mahanta...
                                  Klemp? It is the Easy Way!

                                  Prometheus




                                  etznab@... wrote:
                                  I think a lot of people can overlook this stuff, thinking that whatever
                                  Paul Twitchell said/wrote must be the truth. Some people just might not
                                  care. Well, it's reasonable to suspect this talent - for promotion,
                                  even when it means making things up, stretching the truth, or just
                                  plain spinning lies - was used to "create" the Eckankar mythos.

                                  myth

                                  1830, from Gk. mythos "speech, thought, story, myth," of unknown origin.

                                  Myths are "stories about divine beings, generally arranged in a
                                  coherent system; they are revered as true and sacred; they are endorsed
                                  by rulers and priests; and closely linked to religion. Once this link
                                  is broken, and the actors in the story are not regarded as gods but as
                                  human heroes, giants or fairies, it is no longer a myth but a folktale.
                                  Where the central actor is divine but the story is trivial ... the
                                  result is religious legend, not myth." [J. Simpson & S. Roud,
                                  "Dictionary of English Folklore," Oxford, 2000, p.254]

                                  General sense of "untrue story, rumor" is from 1840.

                                  http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=mythos&searchmode=\
                                  \
                                  none

                                  In other words, amid all the compilations and recycled material, etc.,
                                  context has been changed (in various places) when it comes to source. I
                                  wonder, could Paul Twitchell have created "Eckankar" and at the same
                                  time given the source for all of his material? I noticed Kirpal Singh
                                  and others were very good at citing references and sharing what
                                  quote/saying came from who. So if Paul Twitchell ever chose to use
                                  passages and paragraphs from books, Did he always feel obligated to
                                  provide that information?

                                  As a promoter, I suspect the person wants to give credit to whatever
                                  they're promoting and not give more credit to "other products" instead.
                                  It makes sense (to me) that Paul Twitchell would "paint the name
                                  Eckankar" over so much material he had read (in so many words). Not
                                  only this, but it even appears probable that Paul Twitchell took
                                  liberty to respell and redefine words according to fit them in a new,
                                  and growing, Eckankar philosophy. Not only words, but names too!

                                  How extensive the promotion and PR campaign that created contemporary
                                  Eckankar teaching? In so many ways, it seems this is the part that
                                  doesn't agree with people. Not unless they knew from the beginning that
                                  information was not necessarily accurate and in some places embellished.

                                  embellish

                                  mid-14c., "to render beautiful," from O.Fr. embelliss-, stem of
                                  embellir "make beautiful, ornament," from em- (see en- (1)) + bel
                                  "beautiful," from L. bellus (see bene-). Meaning "dress up (a
                                  narration) with fictitious matter" is from mid-15c. Related:
                                  Embellished; embellishing.

                                  http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=embellished&search\
                                  \
                                  mode=none

                                  Reading through early Eckankar books I think common sense might tell a
                                  person that parts of the material was embellished. At the same time I
                                  also think people could naturally so much want the material to be true
                                  that they allow imagination to "make it so" and overrule common sense.

                                  Ever observe what happens when you're part of a group where countless
                                  individuals believe in things - through imagination - that aren't
                                  necessarily true? I mean, when you're one of the unbelievers and part
                                  of the minority who question whether so many imagined things are true?


                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                                  <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Sat, Sep 17, 2011 2:14 am
                                  Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: "The Dark Side of ECKankar" -
                                  And More!

                                  Â
                                  Hello Etznab and All,
                                  This tells how Paul Twitchell
                                  was His Own Drum Beater:

                                  http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html

                                  What's interesting is that at age 27 (1935)
                                  Twitchell was saying that he had been
                                  to India (supposedly at age 15 to meet
                                  Rebazar for the first time, DOBTLEM).
                                  However, Klemp points out that Twitchell
                                  was doing another self-promotion, and
                                  was lying in order to get into Who's Who
                                  in Kentucky. Klemp states that Twitchell
                                  had never been all that far from home
                                  at age 27. Klemp seems to have stepped
                                  into a big pile of Twits mess. HK's
                                  statement contradicts what Twitchell
                                  revealed in Difficulties of Becoming the
                                  Living ECK Master circa July, 1971. This
                                  1971 date is, supposedly, long after Twitchell
                                  (the Mahanta) was was no longer "exaggerating"
                                  and "twisting facts." However, as Klemp
                                  has pointed out Twitchell was still lying
                                  and promoting his con up until his untimely
                                  and death in September, 1971.

                                  Prometheus

                                  etznab@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Almost didn't see this response because the e-mail bounced.
                                  >
                                  > Umm ... about the self-promotion, whatever, people can read about
                                  some of the history here.
                                  >
                                  > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html
                                  >
                                  > Check out 4th paragraph of article entitled: Paul's Seal of
                                  Approval.
                                  >
                                  > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                                  "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Hello Etznab and All,
                                  > > It is interesting that Twitchell
                                  > > has his Rebazar character (the
                                  > > "Master" who initiated him)
                                  > > indicate that there were 8 Planes
                                  > > just as Radhasomi and Ruhani
                                  > > Satsang have listed in "The Path
                                  > > of the Masters." Since Kirpal
                                  > > Singh, of Ruhani Satsang, was
                                  > > Paul's real life Master for ten years
                                  > > it's no wonder that this dogma was
                                  > > influential in the design of Eckankar.
                                  > >
                                  > > Of course, Twitchell was constantly
                                  > > tweaking, revising, and masking his
                                  > > religious con as time went by.
                                  > >
                                  > > The Anami Lok (10th Plane where
                                  > > "Sugmad" resides) didn't appear until
                                  > > later. Did Rebazar simply forget to
                                  > > mention this as well as the "Mahanta?"
                                  > > Did RT think that Paul needed to be
                                  > > spoon-fed and wasn't ready for this
                                  > > advanced "spiritual" info? No, not really.
                                  > > According to Twitchell he had been
                                  > > given the 12th and "final initiation"
                                  > > (to become LEM) back in 1951 by
                                  > > Rebazar while on his "2nd" visit to
                                  > > India. See, the timeline is off for this
                                  > > ekplanation to be taken seriously as
                                  > > well.
                                  > >
                                  > > Therefore, there is no rational excuse
                                  > > for these inconsistencies except to
                                  > > admit that the "rascal" Twitchell was,
                                  > > once again, "exaggerating" and "twisting
                                  > > facts" as even Klemp has described
                                  > > and said of him. Klemp, years ago,
                                  > > had to admit that Twitchell was a self-
                                  > > promoter and did or said whatever
                                  > > he needed to do ("By Any Means Necessary")
                                  > > in order to get Eckankar off the ground.
                                  > >
                                  > > This is why Klemp, at first, had a
                                  > > difficult job of explaining Twitchell's
                                  > > inconsistencies and needed to keep
                                  > > Eckists confused, busy, and off-balance.
                                  > > Now, Eckists are so brainwashed that
                                  > > Klemp can say whatever in his simple
                                  > > minded redundant versions of feel-good
                                  > > New Age spirituality.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Prometheus
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > etznab wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar
                                  Tarzs
                                  > > mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme.
                                  Check the
                                  > > index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with
                                  the Master.
                                  > >
                                  > > The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless
                                  region,
                                  > > [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called
                                  THE FACE OF
                                  > > GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying:
                                  [Quoting]
                                  > > "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the
                                  light of
                                  > > God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes
                                  could not look
                                  > > upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean
                                  of Love
                                  > > and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return
                                  in time."
                                  > > (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)
                                  > >
                                  > > Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in
                                  the House
                                  > > of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens.
                                  Ye cannot
                                  > > go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with
                                  my divine
                                  > > self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in
                                  the divine
                                  > > cause!"
                                  > >
                                  > > Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the
                                  Master, has
                                  > > Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting
                                  snippet]:
                                  > >
                                  > > "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in
                                  a
                                  > > mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
                                  > > attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
                                  > > "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
                                  after
                                  > > this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul
                                  reaches
                                  > > the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or
                                  the SUGMAD,
                                  > > the supreme LORD of all that exists."
                                  > >
                                  > > http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html
                                  > >
                                  > > Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the
                                  description
                                  > > slightly:
                                  > >
                                  > > "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the
                                  Sat Nam in
                                  > > a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in
                                  all Sat
                                  > > Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the
                                  three
                                  > > remaining known planes.
                                  > >
                                  > > "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha,
                                  and
                                  > > after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam
                                  Purusha, or
                                  > > lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region
                                  of the
                                  > > nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first
                                  you know
                                  > > about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the
                                  Divine.
                                  > >
                                  > > "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."
                                  > >
                                  > > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                  > >
                                  > > Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is
                                  illustrated (by
                                  > > Paul Twitchell) slightly different.
                                  > >
                                  > > "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam
                                  Lok.
                                  > > Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the
                                  end of its
                                  > > journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the
                                  supreme
                                  > > lord of all that exists."
                                  > >
                                  > > http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html
                                  > >
                                  > > The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok,
                                  Alak Lok,
                                  > > Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with
                                  Ocean of
                                  > > Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip
                                  mention of
                                  > > Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.
                                  > >
                                  > > In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master,
                                  Introduction to
                                  > > Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes
                                  similarly, and
                                  > > in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain
                                  sections from
                                  > > The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:
                                  > >
                                  > > "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit
                                  is
                                  > > expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal,
                                  Nirala,
                                  > > Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
                                  > > Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country
                                  > >
                                  > > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                  > >
                                  > > "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many
                                  words, such
                                  > > as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala,
                                  Anami, Agam,
                                  > > Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar,
                                  Parameshwar,
                                  > > Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters
                                  > >
                                  > > http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html
                                  > >
                                  > > Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent
                                  from the
                                  > > Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR
                                  vs.
                                  > > Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian
                                  Johnson's book,
                                  > > The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The
                                  Far
                                  > > Country, by at least three decades!
                                  > >
                                  > > Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word,
                                  trademarked
                                  > > it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is
                                  somehow more
                                  > > than a paraphrase.
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