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Re: "The Dark Side of ECKankar"

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  • Rosemarie Bucci
    Hi Diana, I ve had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this path. I have read David Lane s book and Ford Johnson s book as
    Message 1 of 24 , Feb 14, 2011
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      Hi Diana,
      I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth is truth and will always be the truth.
       
      I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember, we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
       
      I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must be brave and remain in truth.
      Thank you for getting back to me.
      Rosemarie


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    • prometheus_973
      Hello Rosemarie, I am a seeker of Truth as well. And yes, this article on The Dark Side of Eckankar is inaccurate, but there is a dark side to Eckankar and
      Message 2 of 24 , Feb 15, 2011
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        Hello Rosemarie,
        I am a seeker of Truth as well.
        And yes, this article on "The Dark
        Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
        there is a dark side to Eckankar and
        there is also fear.

        I find it interesting that you've
        read (and I assume have contemplated
        upon) David Lane's research as well as
        Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
        and have, still, remained an ECKist.

        What happened to your "critical thinking?"
        Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
        you agree with some of it but not all of
        it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
        I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
        isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
        what they believe than any other religion
        they've found. Is that the case with you?

        I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
        book, threw it away (because of the bad
        vibes), and then placed themselves upon
        pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
        and talk Eckists through their doubts and
        concerns.

        You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
        not all truth is the same. That's why there
        are so many churches. People are social
        animals and tend to seek out others with
        similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
        to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
        to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
        and a test for Soul.

        I also got the impression that you don't
        participate much within the RESA structure.
        Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
        Do you know that you have to watch what
        you say? You've observed and learned that
        correct? You do care about being promoted
        to that next initiation right?

        Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
        take on the subjects that we've been discussing
        here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
        lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
        for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
        Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
        when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
        "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
        detectors just for his talk?

        You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues. 
        We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
        at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."

        BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
        read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?

        Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
        the table.

        Prometheus

        rosemarie wrote:
        Hi Diana,

        I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth is truth and will always be the truth.

        I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember, we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.

        I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must be brave and remain in truth.

        Thank you for getting back to me.
        Rosemarie


        dianastanley wrote:

        Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time. If it is hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew and was their experience I also say.

        Diana Stanley

        Rosemarie Bucci wrote:

        I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who are
        searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
        findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
        thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.

        I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues. 
        We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
        have allot to bring to the table.
         
        I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
        called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
        site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because I'd
        raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
        well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
        complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
        thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely objective.
        For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
        paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
         
        I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
        within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on the
        facts.

        I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
        the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
        belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking.
        Do you?
      • dianastanley43
        Rosemarie you are quite right. I started with Eckankar and ended up studing quantum Physics What I finally came to the conclusion of was if you were sitting in
        Message 3 of 24 , Feb 17, 2011
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          Rosemarie you are quite right. I started with Eckankar and ended up studing quantum Physics What I finally came to the conclusion of was if you were sitting in you living room you didn't need a spiritual path to find your living room. It has not been an easy journy as I was loath to give up the idea of the mystical and magical and I traveled many paths in the 30 yrs after leaving Eckankar. One day I read a quote that changed my belief system of years. "God did'nt create the universe God became the universe. It's interesting that when the time is right I might understand something that a few yrs earlier would not have ment anything.
          Diana

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Rosemarie Bucci <rblustar@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Diana,
          > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this
          > path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been
          > to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that
          > honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth
          > is truth and will always be the truth.
          >
          >  
          > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we
          > follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching
          > which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember,
          > we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to
          > bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
          >
          >  
          > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts
          > sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must
          > be brave and remain in truth.
          > Thank you for gettingback to me.
          > Rosemarie
          >
          >
          >
          > ____________________________________________________________________________________
          > It's here! Your new message!
          > Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar.
          > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/
          >
        • Avonblue
          Diana and All, I came to eckankar back in the 70 s because I felt religion was an abomination and the lure of free exploration of our spiritual self was truly
          Message 4 of 24 , Feb 18, 2011
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            Diana and All,

            I came to eckankar back in the 70's because I felt religion was an abomination and the lure of free exploration of our spiritual self was truly revolutionary. Eckankar eventually failed to be the magical mystical carpet ride it was purported to be but instead a rehash and reinvention of eastern and western mumbo jumbo recreated by a charlatan. I too have explored quantum physics and especially the advances in neuroscience over the past several years and have come to the belief that "spirituality" and for the that matter "god" is nothing more than misunderstood and undiscovered as of yet science.

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "dianastanley43" <dianastanley43@...> wrote:
            >
            > Rosemarie you are quite right. I started with Eckankar and ended up studing quantum Physics What I finally came to the conclusion of was if you were sitting in you living room you didn't need a spiritual path to find your living room. It has not been an easy journy as I was loath to give up the idea of the mystical and magical and I traveled many paths in the 30 yrs after leaving Eckankar. One day I read a quote that changed my belief system of years. "God did'nt create the universe God became the universe. It's interesting that when the time is right I might understand something that a few yrs earlier would not have ment anything.
            > Diana
            >
            > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Rosemarie Bucci <rblustar@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hi Diana,
            > > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this
            > > path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been
            > > to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that
            > > honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth
            > > is truth and will always be the truth.
            > >
            > >  
            > > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we
            > > follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching
            > > which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember,
            > > we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to
            > > bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
            > >
            > >  
            > > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts
            > > sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must
            > > be brave and remain in truth.
            > > Thank you for gettingback to me.
            > > Rosemarie
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ____________________________________________________________________________________
            > > It's here! Your new message!
            > > Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar.
            > > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/
            > >
            >
          • prometheus_973
            Hello Avonblue and All, I was first introduced to the quantum physics/mechanics/ field theory scam via Maharishi of TM fame. Adam Dreamhealer and many other
            Message 5 of 24 , Feb 21, 2011
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              Hello Avonblue and All,
              I was first introduced to the
              "quantum physics/mechanics/
              field theory" scam via Maharishi
              of TM fame. Adam Dreamhealer
              and many other scammers have
              used and abused this theory
              to explain how their brand of
              whatever works. I'm surprised
              that Klemp hasn't used this hook
              in order to combine science and
              spirituality.

              It is quite interesting how Klemp
              gradually became "the" God/Mahanta.

              And, even though he has stated,
              "don't worship me" he has Eckists
              stare at his picture and chant HU.

              Plus, he has them dream of him
              and beseech him with requests,
              questions, help, protection, and
              for healing. So, HK instructs Eckists
              to pray to him (the Mahanta), but
              says he's not to be worshipped.
              How's that work? Of course he's
              worshipped!

              And, who or what is "worshipped" by
              Eckists at ECK Worship Services (EWS)?
              Is it the ECK? Klemp claims to be that
              too, or is it the Mahanta or both?
              So, on the "outer" Klemp is the leader
              (LEM) of Eckankar and on the "inner"
              he claims to be the ECK and the Mahanta.
              But wouldn't he, also, be the ECK and
              the Mahanta on the "outer" as well?
              This is where/how Klemp tricks ECKists
              into worshipping him. He's everything
              and claims to be levels higher than the
              God that other religions worship. Yet,
              just like Twitchell fooled people, Klemp
              does the same. Telling ECKists not to
              worship him is a disclaimer so that he
              can avoid responsibility.

              It's really laughable that older ECKists
              turned their backs on the religion of
              their parents because "God" never answered
              their prayers, etc. Now, they've substituted
              Klemp for Jesus or Moses or who and what
              ever. How stupid is that!

              Strange that Sugmad isn't worshipped
              at these EWS events and neither is God.
              God is discussed some, but a real Eckist
              knows that "God" is code for the Mahanta,
              or the KAL, it depends. So, who/what is
              worshipped? The ECK? That's Klemp too!
              Klemp, in one way or the other is always
              the main focus! Really, who does the Mahanta
              look like? And, yet, do Eckists really think
              about what they are really doing when they
              worship, pray HU, contemplate upon, dream,
              and beseech "the" Mahanta/ECK (Klemp)
              for help? Apparently not!

              Prometheus


              Avonblue wrote:
              Diana and All,

              I came to eckankar back in the 70's because I felt religion was an abomination
              and the lure of free exploration of our spiritual self was truly revolutionary.
              Eckankar eventually failed to be the magical mystical carpet ride it was
              purported to be but instead a rehash and reinvention of eastern and western
              mumbo jumbo recreated by a charlatan. I too have explored quantum physics and
              especially the advances in neuroscience over the past several years and have
              come to the belief that "spirituality" and for the that matter "god" is nothing
              more than misunderstood and undiscovered as of yet science.

              dianastanley43"
              dianastanley43@...> wrote:
              >
              > Rosemarie you are quite right. I started with Eckankar and ended up studing
              quantum Physics What I finally came to the conclusion of was if you were sitting
              in you living room you didn't need a spiritual path to find your living room. It
              has not been an easy journy as I was loath to give up the idea of the mystical
              and magical and I traveled many paths in the 30 yrs after leaving Eckankar. One
              day I read a quote that changed my belief system of years. "God did'nt create
              the universe God became the universe. It's interesting that when the time is
              right I might understand something that a few yrs earlier would not have ment
              anything.
              > Diana
              >
              Rosemarie Bucci <rblustar wrote:

              Hi Diana,
              I've had lots of experiences before
              my journey into eckankar and while on
              this path. I have read David Lane's book
              and Ford Johnson's book as well.

              I've been to eck satsangs, eck book
              discussions and eck seminars also.
              I agree that honesty is essential the
              name of GOD on all levels.

              I also understand that truth is truth
              and will always be the truth.

              I think it's important to remain open
              and honest regardless of what path we
              follow and to be there for one another
              as much as we can. We are all searching
              which is wonderful.

              Therefore, we are not wrong in doing
              so and let's remember, we all have each
              other to try to put all this in perspective.
              We have so much to bring to one another
              on our many different levels of knowledge
              and experience.

              I know we'll get through this some day
              and be stronger for it even if it hurts
              sometimes. If we are to stand before
              GOD and try to journey back to GOD,
              we must be brave and remain in truth.



              Prometheus: But there is no Truth
              in Eckankar nor in any religion. It's
              desperation, fear, lies, myth (stories),
              imagination, pretend, and delusion!



              Thank you for getting back to me.
              Rosemarie
            • dianastanley43
              ... Diana
              Message 6 of 24 , Feb 21, 2011
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                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                > Paul commissioned me to do a sculpture of him so the Eckist would have something to focus on,I quess it was supposed to compete with jesus on the cross, any way he died befor it was finished and the stature fell apart befor I could make a mold of it. I thought Paul destroyed when he died as a lot of hi's at the time felt that. Acually it was bad craftsmanship on my part. I have to say it was pretty neat, he was sitting on a stool looking holy.
                Diana
                >
                >
                >
                > Hello Avonblue and All,
                > I was first introduced to the
                > "quantum physics/mechanics/
                > field theory" scam via Maharishi
                > of TM fame. Adam Dreamhealer
                > and many other scammers have
                > used and abused this theory
                > to explain how their brand of
                > whatever works. I'm surprised
                > that Klemp hasn't used this hook
                > in order to combine science and
                > spirituality.
                >
                > It is quite interesting how Klemp
                > gradually became "the" God/Mahanta.
                >
                > And, even though he has stated,
                > "don't worship me" he has Eckists
                > stare at his picture and chant HU.
                >
                > Plus, he has them dream of him
                > and beseech him with requests,
                > questions, help, protection, and
                > for healing. So, HK instructs Eckists
                > to pray to him (the Mahanta), but
                > says he's not to be worshipped.
                > How's that work? Of course he's
                > worshipped!
                >
                > And, who or what is "worshipped" by
                > Eckists at ECK Worship Services (EWS)?
                > Is it the ECK? Klemp claims to be that
                > too, or is it the Mahanta or both?
                > So, on the "outer" Klemp is the leader
                > (LEM) of Eckankar and on the "inner"
                > he claims to be the ECK and the Mahanta.
                > But wouldn't he, also, be the ECK and
                > the Mahanta on the "outer" as well?
                > This is where/how Klemp tricks ECKists
                > into worshipping him. He's everything
                > and claims to be levels higher than the
                > God that other religions worship. Yet,
                > just like Twitchell fooled people, Klemp
                > does the same. Telling ECKists not to
                > worship him is a disclaimer so that he
                > can avoid responsibility.
                >
                > It's really laughable that older ECKists
                > turned their backs on the religion of
                > their parents because "God" never answered
                > their prayers, etc. Now, they've substituted
                > Klemp for Jesus or Moses or who and what
                > ever. How stupid is that!
                >
                > Strange that Sugmad isn't worshipped
                > at these EWS events and neither is God.
                > God is discussed some, but a real Eckist
                > knows that "God" is code for the Mahanta,
                > or the KAL, it depends. So, who/what is
                > worshipped? The ECK? That's Klemp too!
                > Klemp, in one way or the other is always
                > the main focus! Really, who does the Mahanta
                > look like? And, yet, do Eckists really think
                > about what they are really doing when they
                > worship, pray HU, contemplate upon, dream,
                > and beseech "the" Mahanta/ECK (Klemp)
                > for help? Apparently not!
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
                >
                > Avonblue wrote:
                > Diana and All,
                >
                > I came to eckankar back in the 70's because I felt religion was an abomination
                > and the lure of free exploration of our spiritual self was truly revolutionary.
                > Eckankar eventually failed to be the magical mystical carpet ride it was
                > purported to be but instead a rehash and reinvention of eastern and western
                > mumbo jumbo recreated by a charlatan. I too have explored quantum physics and
                > especially the advances in neuroscience over the past several years and have
                > come to the belief that "spirituality" and for the that matter "god" is nothing
                > more than misunderstood and undiscovered as of yet science.
                >
                > dianastanley43"
                > dianastanley43@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Rosemarie you are quite right. I started with Eckankar and ended up studing
                > quantum Physics What I finally came to the conclusion of was if you were sitting
                > in you living room you didn't need a spiritual path to find your living room. It
                > has not been an easy journy as I was loath to give up the idea of the mystical
                > and magical and I traveled many paths in the 30 yrs after leaving Eckankar. One
                > day I read a quote that changed my belief system of years. "God did'nt create
                > the universe God became the universe. It's interesting that when the time is
                > right I might understand something that a few yrs earlier would not have ment
                > anything.
                > > Diana
                > >
                > Rosemarie Bucci <rblustar wrote:
                >
                > Hi Diana,
                > I've had lots of experiences before
                > my journey into eckankar and while on
                > this path. I have read David Lane's book
                > and Ford Johnson's book as well.
                >
                > I've been to eck satsangs, eck book
                > discussions and eck seminars also.
                > I agree that honesty is essential the
                > name of GOD on all levels.
                >
                > I also understand that truth is truth
                > and will always be the truth.
                >
                > I think it's important to remain open
                > and honest regardless of what path we
                > follow and to be there for one another
                > as much as we can. We are all searching
                > which is wonderful.
                >
                > Therefore, we are not wrong in doing
                > so and let's remember, we all have each
                > other to try to put all this in perspective.
                > We have so much to bring to one another
                > on our many different levels of knowledge
                > and experience.
                >
                > I know we'll get through this some day
                > and be stronger for it even if it hurts
                > sometimes. If we are to stand before
                > GOD and try to journey back to GOD,
                > we must be brave and remain in truth.
                >
                >
                >
                > Prometheus: But there is no Truth
                > in Eckankar nor in any religion. It's
                > desperation, fear, lies, myth (stories),
                > imagination, pretend, and delusion!
                >
                >
                >
                > Thank you for getting back to me.
                > Rosemarie
                >
              • starshine917
                Hello prometheus_973: Remember me? Wow, it s so weird that I d be writing to you now….exactly, one year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I
                Message 7 of 24 , Sep 4, 2011
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                  Hello prometheus_973:
                  Remember me? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writing to you now….exactly, one year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I didn't plan it like this but somehow it just worked out this way.

                  I recently left Eckankar. And, you were right….I read David Lane's paper as well as Ford Johnson's "Confessions of a God Seeker" And, for some reason at that time I remained in the group tying to focus on the so-called positive side of the Eckankar, the hypnotic rederick that goes nowhere while ignoring the facts. I then started to take a good look at Harold…looked into his "dark" eyes and listened to his figure of monotone speak and I realized it was very hypnotic, and at the same time very inviting. I wondered who or what was inside of those dark eyes….And they seem to always come as "the light". Yes, the "angel of light".

                  I was in a satsang at that time and I found it disturbing more and more that his same picture of himself, which by the way never changes, the one and only picture that has to be present at all Eckankar meetings was never questioned by it's members. All the books we studied were written by him and only him !!! And how some members were "higher" than others depending on their "initiation" number, even if these people knew absolutely nothing except what was written in the books of Eckankar. Some of these people seemed to have anger issues too which didn't seem to fit the spiritual portrait of a saint they painted. I started to feel uncomfortable around these people cause they seemed more and more to me like mind-controlled slaves. And, they too could see that I was thinking and starting to pull away because I no longer looked to them without question, with blind authority.

                  So, it wasn't a good mix to say the very least. I finally had it out with one of the members and I realized that I already left…In my heart, I choose to follow truth and I also realized that that in Eckankar, I was being deceived. And I realized that I couldn't have it both ways. I had to pick my convictions and go with them. After all, why would I go against my own self, and what was in my heart ?

                  In Eckankar it is taught to open and follow your heart but yet, if you dare open your mind and begin to ask challenging questions, you're in trouble because these people think the Mahanta in Eckankar is above all else and should never be questioned, and your heart should be open to "him", the self appointed master, Harold Klemp. Even if the members of Eckankar are not honest with themselves enough to admit it consciously. On a subconscious level, they know better !!!

                  The shame of it all is that this deception is done in the name of an unconditional open heart to give love, which it is true, a part of GOD's flow but where's the truth ? What happened to that part of GOD ??? I guess it got lost in the sea of love…


                  Hello prometheus_973;
                  Remember me ? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writ

                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello Rosemarie,
                  > I am a seeker of Truth as well.
                  > And yes, this article on "The Dark
                  > Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
                  > there is a dark side to Eckankar and
                  > there is also fear.
                  >
                  > I find it interesting that you've
                  > read (and I assume have contemplated
                  > upon) David Lane's research as well as
                  > Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
                  > and have, still, remained an ECKist.
                  >
                  > What happened to your "critical thinking?"
                  > Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
                  > you agree with some of it but not all of
                  > it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
                  > I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
                  > isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
                  > what they believe than any other religion
                  > they've found. Is that the case with you?
                  >
                  > I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
                  > book, threw it away (because of the bad
                  > vibes), and then placed themselves upon
                  > pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
                  > and talk Eckists through their doubts and
                  > concerns.
                  >
                  > You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
                  > not all truth is the same. That's why there
                  > are so many churches. People are social
                  > animals and tend to seek out others with
                  > similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
                  > to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
                  > to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
                  > and a test for Soul.
                  >
                  > I also got the impression that you don't
                  > participate much within the RESA structure.
                  > Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
                  > Do you know that you have to watch what
                  > you say? You've observed and learned that
                  > correct? You do care about being promoted
                  > to that next initiation right?
                  >
                  > Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
                  > take on the subjects that we've been discussing
                  > here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
                  > lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
                  > for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
                  > Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
                  > when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
                  > "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
                  > detectors just for his talk?
                  >
                  > You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues. 
                  > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
                  > at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."
                  >
                  > BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
                  > read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?
                  >
                  > Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
                  > the table.
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                  > rosemarie wrote:
                  > Hi Diana,
                  >
                  > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth is truth and will always be the truth.
                  >
                  > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember, we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
                  >
                  > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must be brave and remain in truth.
                  >
                  > Thank you for getting back to me.
                  > Rosemarie
                  >
                  >
                  > dianastanley wrote:
                  >
                  > Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time. If it is hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew and was their experience I also say.
                  >
                  > Diana Stanley
                  >
                  > Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
                  >
                  > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who are
                  > searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
                  > findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
                  > thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.
                  >
                  > I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues. 
                  > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
                  > have allot to bring to the table.
                  >  
                  > I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
                  > called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
                  > site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because I'd
                  > raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
                  > well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
                  > complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
                  > thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely objective.
                  > For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
                  > paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
                  >  
                  > I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
                  > within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on the
                  > facts.
                  >
                  > I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
                  > the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
                  > belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking.
                  > Do you?
                  >
                • prometheus_973
                  Hello All, Just thought I d share some additional comments to what Starshine wrote. starshine917 wrote: Hello prometheus_973: Remember me? Wow, it s so weird
                  Message 8 of 24 , Sep 11, 2011
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hello All,
                    Just thought I'd share some
                    additional comments to what
                    Starshine wrote.

                    starshine917 wrote:
                    Hello prometheus_973:
                    Remember me? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writing to you now….exactly, one
                    year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I didn't plan it like
                    this but somehow it just worked out this way.


                    ME: Yes, it takes awhile for the
                    realization to occur and sink in
                    even after one decides to look
                    for and analyze it via critical
                    thinking while giving HK's/PT's
                    redundant words a litmus test
                    for truthiness.


                    I recently left Eckankar. And, you were right….I read David Lane's paper as well
                    as Ford Johnson's "Confessions of a God Seeker" And, for some reason at that
                    time I remained in the group tying to focus on the so-called positive side of
                    the Eckankar, the hypnotic rederick that goes nowhere while ignoring the facts.
                    I then started to take a good look at Harold…looked into his "dark" eyes and
                    listened to his figure of monotone speak and I realized it was very hypnotic,
                    and at the same time very inviting. I wondered who or what was inside of those
                    dark eyes….And they seem to always come as "the light". Yes, the "angel of
                    light".


                    ME: Klemp is no angel of light! He spreads
                    darkness and delusion while denying Eckists
                    their true nature as Soul. He gives (hope),
                    promises (higher plane initiations), and then
                    takes it all away (hope of ever getting beyond
                    the 7th initiation while in this lifetime, unless,
                    one pretends or imagines they are higher
                    via vanity and frustration).


                    I was in a satsang at that time and I found it disturbing more and more that his
                    same picture of himself, which by the way never changes, the one and only
                    picture that has to be present at all Eckankar meetings was never questioned by
                    it's members. All the books we studied were written by him and only him !!! And
                    how some members were "higher" than others depending on their "initiation"
                    number, even if these people knew absolutely nothing except what was written in
                    the books of Eckankar. Some of these people seemed to have anger issues too
                    which didn't seem to fit the spiritual portrait of a saint they painted. I
                    started to feel uncomfortable around these people cause they seemed more and
                    more to me like mind-controlled slaves. And, they too could see that I was
                    thinking and starting to pull away because I no longer looked to them without
                    question, with blind authority.


                    ME: Yes, that more youthful looking
                    Official Picture of Klemp's is a vain act,
                    but is never questioned because to do
                    so would get one Black Listed on initiations.
                    Those longtime Eckists who are part
                    of the RESA Hierarchy know what I'm
                    saying. Some H.I.s are fearful/cautious
                    of the spies that report to the RESA and
                    only share certain things (anti-Guideline
                    comments, etc.) around those H.I.s they
                    can trust.


                    BTW- There are some books, that Klemp
                    has approved of, written by non-Eck
                    authors that Eckists can read. However,
                    the Eckist must always focus upon the
                    ECK or Mahanta when reading these
                    books and, thus, give up free, unfettered,
                    thought. Some of these books are
                    recommended to those in leadership
                    positions and are business oriented.



                    So, it wasn't a good mix to say the very least. I finally had it out with one of
                    the members and I realized that I already left…In my heart, I choose to follow
                    truth and I also realized that that in Eckankar, I was being deceived. And I
                    realized that I couldn't have it both ways. I had to pick my convictions and go
                    with them. After all, why would I go against my own self, and what was in my
                    heart?


                    ME: It's the easy way to place an
                    authority figure on a shelf higher
                    than yourself. Less thinking and
                    effort is involved when blind trust
                    takes over. It's lazy but that's what
                    people do. Look at how we allow
                    the politicians to say and do as
                    they please without taking responsibility.
                    With Klemp, it's always the chela's
                    fault and never his own! He slowed-
                    down initiations in 1985, but doesn't
                    need to explain why these haven't
                    sped up because he answers to
                    nobody else, except, Sugmad right?


                    In Eckankar it is taught to open and follow your heart but yet, if you dare open
                    your mind and begin to ask challenging questions, you're in trouble because
                    these people think the Mahanta in Eckankar is above all else and should never be
                    questioned, and your heart should be open to "him", the self appointed master,
                    Harold Klemp. Even if the members of Eckankar are not honest with themselves
                    enough to admit it consciously. On a subconscious level, they know better !!!

                    ME: That following your heart
                    thing is more about the Astral
                    Heart Chakra... which is lower
                    than the Third Eye or Tisra Til!
                    Why didn't Klemp at least use
                    the (Astral) Crown Chakra when
                    having Eckists HU? After 30 years
                    and HK still has Eckists HUing
                    and focusing upon the 6th,
                    Third Eye, Astral Chakra versus
                    the 7th Crown Chakra!


                    The shame of it all is that this deception is done in the name of an
                    unconditional open heart to give love, which it is true, a part of GOD's flow
                    but where's the truth ? What happened to that part of GOD ??? I guess it got
                    lost in the sea of love…


                    ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                    "common language" but it's not
                    quite true. ECK is not a common
                    word and neither is Mahanta.
                    And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                    to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                    others worship or think he is speaking
                    about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                    use the word GOD when it's not
                    who or what they are referring
                    to. It's like comparing apples
                    to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                    start out, and are trained, to be
                    deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                    fact alone makes Eckankar look
                    very cult like. But, why the lie?
                    The "common language" excuse
                    doesn't hold water but Eckists
                    can't question this underhanded
                    practice or else they can have
                    their position taken away and
                    be Black Listed and shunned.

                    Prometheus



                    Hello prometheus_973;
                    Remember me ? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writ


                    <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hello Rosemarie,
                    > I am a seeker of Truth as well.
                    > And yes, this article on "The Dark
                    > Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
                    > there is a dark side to Eckankar and
                    > there is also fear.
                    >
                    > I find it interesting that you've
                    > read (and I assume have contemplated
                    > upon) David Lane's research as well as
                    > Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
                    > and have, still, remained an ECKist.
                    >
                    > What happened to your "critical thinking?"
                    > Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
                    > you agree with some of it but not all of
                    > it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
                    > I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
                    > isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
                    > what they believe than any other religion
                    > they've found. Is that the case with you?
                    >
                    > I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
                    > book, threw it away (because of the bad
                    > vibes), and then placed themselves upon
                    > pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
                    > and talk Eckists through their doubts and
                    > concerns.
                    >
                    > You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
                    > not all truth is the same. That's why there
                    > are so many churches. People are social
                    > animals and tend to seek out others with
                    > similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
                    > to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
                    > to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
                    > and a test for Soul.
                    >
                    > I also got the impression that you don't
                    > participate much within the RESA structure.
                    > Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
                    > Do you know that you have to watch what
                    > you say? You've observed and learned that
                    > correct? You do care about being promoted
                    > to that next initiation right?
                    >
                    > Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
                    > take on the subjects that we've been discussing
                    > here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
                    > lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
                    > for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
                    > Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
                    > when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
                    > "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
                    > detectors just for his talk?
                    >
                    > You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                    > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
                    > at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."
                    >
                    > BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
                    > read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?
                    >
                    > Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
                    > the table.
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    >
                    > rosemarie wrote:
                    > Hi Diana,
                    >
                    > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this
                    path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been
                    to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that
                    honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth
                    is truth and will always be the truth.
                    >
                    > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we
                    follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching
                    which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember,
                    we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to
                    bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
                    >
                    > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts
                    sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must
                    be brave and remain in truth.
                    >
                    > Thank you for getting back to me.
                    > Rosemarie
                    >
                    >
                    > dianastanley wrote:
                    >
                    > Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any
                    direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from
                    personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time. If it is
                    hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew and was their
                    experience I also say.
                    >
                    > Diana Stanley
                    >
                    > Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
                    >
                    > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who
                    are searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
                    findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
                    thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.
                    >
                    I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                    We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
                    have allot to bring to the table.
                    >
                    I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
                    called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
                    site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because
                    I'd raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
                    well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
                    complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
                    thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely
                    objective.

                    For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
                    paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
                    >
                    I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
                    within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on
                    the facts.
                    >
                    I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
                    the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
                    belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking.
                    Do you?
                  • postekcon
                    Re ... ME: Klemp likes to say he uses common language but it s not quite true. ECK is not a common word and neither is Mahanta. And, the God (Sugmad) he
                    Message 9 of 24 , Sep 11, 2011
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Re
                      >>>
                      ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                      "common language" but it's not
                      quite true. ECK is not a common
                      word and neither is Mahanta.
                      And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                      to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                      others worship or think he is speaking
                      about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                      use the word GOD when it's not
                      who or what they are referring
                      to. It's like comparing apples
                      to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                      start out, and are trained, to be
                      deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                      fact alone makes Eckankar look
                      very cult like. But, why the lie?
                      The "common language" excuse
                      doesn't hold water but Eckists
                      can't question this underhanded
                      practice or else they can have
                      their position taken away and
                      be Black Listed and shunned.
                      >>>


                      For the past ten years, I have observed this pattern.

                      Hard working HIs (50-70yrs plus) busy putting on Intro Talks, occasionally enrolling a new recruit to ekult.

                      However, within a year or two, the new recruit leaves ekult as nothing makes sense! Of course, the HIs, unable to look at either themselves or ekult, always blame the new recruit with comments such as lack of unfoldment etc!

                      For the new recruit, the reason nothing makes sense, I've observed, is thus. The HIs bring the new recruit into Paul Twitchell/Darwin Gross ekult; the ekult into which they themselved were enrolled. Now this version of ekult promised it had the tools for self/god realization in this lifetime etc. However, several MW (Mystic World) issues later, the new recruit comes to understand these 'good people' lied to them!
                      -Postekcon


                      In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hello All,
                      > Just thought I'd share some
                      > additional comments to what
                      > Starshine wrote.
                      >
                      > starshine917 wrote:
                      > Hello prometheus_973:
                      > Remember me? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writing to you now….exactly, one
                      > year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I didn't plan it like
                      > this but somehow it just worked out this way.
                      >
                      >
                      > ME: Yes, it takes awhile for the
                      > realization to occur and sink in
                      > even after one decides to look
                      > for and analyze it via critical
                      > thinking while giving HK's/PT's
                      > redundant words a litmus test
                      > for truthiness.
                      >
                      >
                      > I recently left Eckankar. And, you were right….I read David Lane's paper as well
                      > as Ford Johnson's "Confessions of a God Seeker" And, for some reason at that
                      > time I remained in the group tying to focus on the so-called positive side of
                      > the Eckankar, the hypnotic rederick that goes nowhere while ignoring the facts.
                      > I then started to take a good look at Harold…looked into his "dark" eyes and
                      > listened to his figure of monotone speak and I realized it was very hypnotic,
                      > and at the same time very inviting. I wondered who or what was inside of those
                      > dark eyes….And they seem to always come as "the light". Yes, the "angel of
                      > light".
                      >
                      >
                      > ME: Klemp is no angel of light! He spreads
                      > darkness and delusion while denying Eckists
                      > their true nature as Soul. He gives (hope),
                      > promises (higher plane initiations), and then
                      > takes it all away (hope of ever getting beyond
                      > the 7th initiation while in this lifetime, unless,
                      > one pretends or imagines they are higher
                      > via vanity and frustration).
                      >
                      >
                      > I was in a satsang at that time and I found it disturbing more and more that his
                      > same picture of himself, which by the way never changes, the one and only
                      > picture that has to be present at all Eckankar meetings was never questioned by
                      > it's members. All the books we studied were written by him and only him !!! And
                      > how some members were "higher" than others depending on their "initiation"
                      > number, even if these people knew absolutely nothing except what was written in
                      > the books of Eckankar. Some of these people seemed to have anger issues too
                      > which didn't seem to fit the spiritual portrait of a saint they painted. I
                      > started to feel uncomfortable around these people cause they seemed more and
                      > more to me like mind-controlled slaves. And, they too could see that I was
                      > thinking and starting to pull away because I no longer looked to them without
                      > question, with blind authority.
                      >
                      >
                      > ME: Yes, that more youthful looking
                      > Official Picture of Klemp's is a vain act,
                      > but is never questioned because to do
                      > so would get one Black Listed on initiations.
                      > Those longtime Eckists who are part
                      > of the RESA Hierarchy know what I'm
                      > saying. Some H.I.s are fearful/cautious
                      > of the spies that report to the RESA and
                      > only share certain things (anti-Guideline
                      > comments, etc.) around those H.I.s they
                      > can trust.
                      >
                      >
                      > BTW- There are some books, that Klemp
                      > has approved of, written by non-Eck
                      > authors that Eckists can read. However,
                      > the Eckist must always focus upon the
                      > ECK or Mahanta when reading these
                      > books and, thus, give up free, unfettered,
                      > thought. Some of these books are
                      > recommended to those in leadership
                      > positions and are business oriented.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > So, it wasn't a good mix to say the very least. I finally had it out with one of
                      > the members and I realized that I already left…In my heart, I choose to follow
                      > truth and I also realized that that in Eckankar, I was being deceived. And I
                      > realized that I couldn't have it both ways. I had to pick my convictions and go
                      > with them. After all, why would I go against my own self, and what was in my
                      > heart?
                      >
                      >
                      > ME: It's the easy way to place an
                      > authority figure on a shelf higher
                      > than yourself. Less thinking and
                      > effort is involved when blind trust
                      > takes over. It's lazy but that's what
                      > people do. Look at how we allow
                      > the politicians to say and do as
                      > they please without taking responsibility.
                      > With Klemp, it's always the chela's
                      > fault and never his own! He slowed-
                      > down initiations in 1985, but doesn't
                      > need to explain why these haven't
                      > sped up because he answers to
                      > nobody else, except, Sugmad right?
                      >
                      >
                      > In Eckankar it is taught to open and follow your heart but yet, if you dare open
                      > your mind and begin to ask challenging questions, you're in trouble because
                      > these people think the Mahanta in Eckankar is above all else and should never be
                      > questioned, and your heart should be open to "him", the self appointed master,
                      > Harold Klemp. Even if the members of Eckankar are not honest with themselves
                      > enough to admit it consciously. On a subconscious level, they know better !!!
                      >
                      > ME: That following your heart
                      > thing is more about the Astral
                      > Heart Chakra... which is lower
                      > than the Third Eye or Tisra Til!
                      > Why didn't Klemp at least use
                      > the (Astral) Crown Chakra when
                      > having Eckists HU? After 30 years
                      > and HK still has Eckists HUing
                      > and focusing upon the 6th,
                      > Third Eye, Astral Chakra versus
                      > the 7th Crown Chakra!
                      >
                      >
                      > The shame of it all is that this deception is done in the name of an
                      > unconditional open heart to give love, which it is true, a part of GOD's flow
                      > but where's the truth ? What happened to that part of GOD ??? I guess it got
                      > lost in the sea of love…
                      >
                      >
                      > ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                      > "common language" but it's not
                      > quite true. ECK is not a common
                      > word and neither is Mahanta.
                      > And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                      > to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                      > others worship or think he is speaking
                      > about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                      > use the word GOD when it's not
                      > who or what they are referring
                      > to. It's like comparing apples
                      > to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                      > start out, and are trained, to be
                      > deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                      > fact alone makes Eckankar look
                      > very cult like. But, why the lie?
                      > The "common language" excuse
                      > doesn't hold water but Eckists
                      > can't question this underhanded
                      > practice or else they can have
                      > their position taken away and
                      > be Black Listed and shunned.
                      >
                      > Prometheus
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Hello prometheus_973;
                      > Remember me ? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writ
                      >
                      >
                      > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hello Rosemarie,
                      > > I am a seeker of Truth as well.
                      > > And yes, this article on "The Dark
                      > > Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
                      > > there is a dark side to Eckankar and
                      > > there is also fear.
                      > >
                      > > I find it interesting that you've
                      > > read (and I assume have contemplated
                      > > upon) David Lane's research as well as
                      > > Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
                      > > and have, still, remained an ECKist.
                      > >
                      > > What happened to your "critical thinking?"
                      > > Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
                      > > you agree with some of it but not all of
                      > > it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
                      > > I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
                      > > isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
                      > > what they believe than any other religion
                      > > they've found. Is that the case with you?
                      > >
                      > > I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
                      > > book, threw it away (because of the bad
                      > > vibes), and then placed themselves upon
                      > > pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
                      > > and talk Eckists through their doubts and
                      > > concerns.
                      > >
                      > > You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
                      > > not all truth is the same. That's why there
                      > > are so many churches. People are social
                      > > animals and tend to seek out others with
                      > > similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
                      > > to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
                      > > to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
                      > > and a test for Soul.
                      > >
                      > > I also got the impression that you don't
                      > > participate much within the RESA structure.
                      > > Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
                      > > Do you know that you have to watch what
                      > > you say? You've observed and learned that
                      > > correct? You do care about being promoted
                      > > to that next initiation right?
                      > >
                      > > Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
                      > > take on the subjects that we've been discussing
                      > > here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
                      > > lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
                      > > for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
                      > > Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
                      > > when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
                      > > "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
                      > > detectors just for his talk?
                      > >
                      > > You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                      > > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
                      > > at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."
                      > >
                      > > BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
                      > > read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?
                      > >
                      > > Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
                      > > the table.
                      > >
                      > > Prometheus
                      > >
                      > > rosemarie wrote:
                      > > Hi Diana,
                      > >
                      > > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this
                      > path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been
                      > to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that
                      > honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth
                      > is truth and will always be the truth.
                      > >
                      > > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we
                      > follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching
                      > which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember,
                      > we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to
                      > bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
                      > >
                      > > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts
                      > sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must
                      > be brave and remain in truth.
                      > >
                      > > Thank you for getting back to me.
                      > > Rosemarie
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > dianastanley wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any
                      > direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from
                      > personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time. If it is
                      > hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew and was their
                      > experience I also say.
                      > >
                      > > Diana Stanley
                      > >
                      > > Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
                      > >
                      > > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who
                      > are searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
                      > findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
                      > thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.
                      > >
                      > I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                      > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
                      > have allot to bring to the table.
                      > >
                      > I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
                      > called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
                      > site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because
                      > I'd raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
                      > well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
                      > complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
                      > thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely
                      > objective.
                      >
                      > For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
                      > paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
                      > >
                      > I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
                      > within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on
                      > the facts.
                      > >
                      > I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
                      > the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
                      > belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking.
                      > Do you?
                      >
                    • prometheus_973
                      Hello Postekcon and All, Yes, it was always a conundrum trying to recruit new members via spreading the word i.e. manure. However, we had structured public
                      Message 10 of 24 , Sep 14, 2011
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                        Hello Postekcon and All,
                        Yes, it was always a conundrum
                        trying to recruit new members
                        via "spreading the word" i.e.
                        manure. However, we had
                        structured public workshops
                        and/or book discussions with
                        Guidelines spelling out what
                        to do and how to do it.

                        Some RESA areas did experimental
                        programs (special projects),
                        and if successful, the ESC
                        tweaked them to be used
                        elsewhere. It was all quite
                        time consuming and frustrating.
                        Local areas and the H.I.s were
                        always judged on the numbers
                        of newbies showing up for
                        these events. Most people
                        were repeats and were into
                        metaphysics or were the friends,
                        coworkers or relatives of Eckists.

                        I recall that one local area
                        of a neighboring state was
                        having a lot of success via
                        large turnouts of newbies.
                        They probably had a couple
                        of hundred newbies in one
                        year and that was practically
                        unheard of in Eckankar. Several
                        of these H.I.s were very proud
                        of the "high counts" they turned
                        in to the ESC. However, out
                        of all of those newbies only
                        about ten joined Eckankar
                        and only, maybe, one or two
                        remained after a year. These,
                        I doubt, remained for the
                        long haul. Let's face it, it's
                        a dead end religion where
                        one pretends, i.e. imagines
                        or visualizes, their desires
                        for "spiritual" progress and
                        "knowingness" or "realization"
                        of varying degrees. The initiation
                        game is the main, underlying,
                        theme. The problem, for Eckists,
                        is that dangling carrot when
                        initiations have been "slowed-
                        down" for 25 years and the
                        highest most can go is the 7th!

                        Those 7th initiates who had
                        hit the glass ceiling 20 or more
                        years ago have rationalized
                        it all away. They only stay in
                        EK because they have some
                        prestige, a lot of Eck friends,
                        and have paid their dues with
                        a lot of vahana and satsang
                        work over the years. Plus, they've
                        been taught to "imagine" and
                        visualize, therefore, all they
                        need to do is pretend they are
                        8ths (on the inner). Most pretend
                        they are higher than 8ths. After
                        all, Darwin skipped or sped up
                        initiations even for Klemp. So,
                        if it was valid, then, why not
                        today? Actually, just about all
                        Eckists pretent they are "higher"
                        than the number printed on
                        their Membership Cards.

                        Anyway, the reason why
                        the EK Youth effort has
                        gained some momentum
                        over the years is because
                        it's easier to brainwash a
                        controlled subject. However,
                        that doesn't always work,
                        either, when these young
                        Eckists see their parents
                        act so nutty and non-Eck
                        like. Plus, reclusive Klemp
                        puts a lot of pressure upon
                        them to do the vahana/
                        missionary thing when
                        it's tough enough getting
                        through school and those
                        teen years. Klemp doesn't
                        have any empathy. He was
                        in a Lutheran all boys high
                        school and never learned
                        about dating until he got
                        out of the Air Force (1968)
                        when he was 26 years old!

                        One has to wonder why
                        Klemp doesn't do his fair
                        share of public vahana work.
                        Why doesn't he have a radio
                        show or do and say something
                        in real time? The EK Seminars
                        don't count. That's for maybe
                        a hundred newbies who aren't
                        all that "new" and for his brain-
                        washed followers.

                        In theory, Klemp's real "spiritual"
                        mission is to help his followers
                        achieve God Realization. However,
                        what Initiation level is the indicator
                        that this has been accomplished?

                        According to Book 2, CH. 12 of
                        the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad (Eckankar's
                        Holy Book) their God, Sugmad,
                        resides on the 10th Plane, however,
                        Eckists must have the 11th Initiation
                        for "entrance into the Sugmad world,
                        which is the highest world of God,
                        if any, may enter."

                        Of course, that's not quite true either
                        since there're the 12th, 13th, and 14th
                        initiations after this one. This, then,
                        is where one (supposedly) enters into
                        Soul's true home called The Ocean of
                        love and Mercy. However, one can see
                        why EK Higher initiates (5-7) become
                        internally frustrated since, except for
                        a handful of people, they will never
                        even see the 8th initiation (in this
                        lifetime). That's the Catch/Con that
                        Twitchell invented and Klemp inherited.
                        Hope via promises for a better afterlife
                        while imagining day-to-day miracles
                        and dreaming about one's pre-programmed
                        expectations. It's how any and every
                        religion works.

                        Prometheus




                        "postekcon" wrote:
                        Re
                        >>>
                        ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                        "common language" but it's not
                        quite true. ECK is not a common
                        word and neither is Mahanta.
                        And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                        to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                        others worship or think he is speaking
                        about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                        use the word GOD when it's not
                        who or what they are referring
                        to. It's like comparing apples
                        to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                        start out, and are trained, to be
                        deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                        fact alone makes Eckankar look
                        very cult like. But, why the lie?
                        The "common language" excuse
                        doesn't hold water but Eckists
                        can't question this underhanded
                        practice or else they can have
                        their position taken away and
                        can be Black Listed and shunned.
                        >>>


                        For the past ten years, I have observed this pattern.

                        Hard working HIs (50-70yrs plus) busy putting on Intro Talks, occasionally
                        enrolling a new recruit to ekult.

                        However, within a year or two, the new recruit leaves ekult as nothing makes
                        sense! Of course, the HIs, unable to look at either themselves or ekult, always
                        blame the new recruit with comments such as lack of unfoldment etc!

                        For the new recruit, the reason nothing makes sense, I've observed, is thus. The
                        HIs bring the new recruit into Paul Twitchell/Darwin Gross ekult; the ekult into
                        which they themselved were enrolled. Now this version of ekult promised it had
                        the tools for self/god realization in this lifetime etc. However, several MW
                        (Mystic World) issues later, the new recruit comes to understand these 'good
                        people' lied to them!
                        -Postekcon


                        In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                        <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hello All,
                        > Just thought I'd share some
                        > additional comments to what
                        > Starshine wrote.
                        >
                        > starshine917 wrote:
                        > Hello prometheus_973:
                        > Remember me? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writing to you now….exactly, one
                        > year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I didn't plan it like
                        > this but somehow it just worked out this way.
                        >
                        >
                        > ME: Yes, it takes awhile for the
                        > realization to occur and sink in
                        > even after one decides to look
                        > for and analyze it via critical
                        > thinking while giving HK's/PT's
                        > redundant words a litmus test
                        > for truthiness.
                        >
                        >
                        > I recently left Eckankar. And, you were right….I read David Lane's paper as
                        well as Ford Johnson's "Confessions of a God Seeker" And, for some reason at
                        that time I remained in the group tying to focus on the so-called positive side
                        of the Eckankar, the hypnotic rederick that goes nowhere while ignoring the
                        facts.

                        > I then started to take a good look at Harold…looked into his "dark" eyes and
                        > listened to his figure of monotone speak and I realized it was very hypnotic,
                        > and at the same time very inviting. I wondered who or what was inside of those
                        > dark eyes….And they seem to always come as "the light". Yes, the "angel of
                        > light".
                        >
                        >
                        > ME: Klemp is no angel of light! He spreads
                        > darkness and delusion while denying Eckists
                        > their true nature as Soul. He gives (hope),
                        > promises (higher plane initiations), and then
                        > takes it all away (hope of ever getting beyond
                        > the 7th initiation while in this lifetime, unless,
                        > one pretends or imagines they are higher
                        > via vanity and frustration).
                        >
                        >
                        > I was in a satsang at that time and I found it disturbing more and more that
                        his
                        > same picture of himself, which by the way never changes, the one and only
                        > picture that has to be present at all Eckankar meetings was never questioned
                        by
                        > it's members. All the books we studied were written by him and only him !!!
                        And
                        > how some members were "higher" than others depending on their "initiation"
                        > number, even if these people knew absolutely nothing except what was written
                        in
                        > the books of Eckankar. Some of these people seemed to have anger issues too
                        > which didn't seem to fit the spiritual portrait of a saint they painted. I
                        > started to feel uncomfortable around these people cause they seemed more and
                        > more to me like mind-controlled slaves. And, they too could see that I was
                        > thinking and starting to pull away because I no longer looked to them without
                        > question, with blind authority.
                        >
                        >
                        > ME: Yes, that more youthful looking
                        > Official Picture of Klemp's is a vain act,
                        > but is never questioned because to do
                        > so would get one Black Listed on initiations.
                        > Those longtime Eckists who are part
                        > of the RESA Hierarchy know what I'm
                        > saying. Some H.I.s are fearful/cautious
                        > of the spies that report to the RESA and
                        > only share certain things (anti-Guideline
                        > comments, etc.) around those H.I.s they
                        > can trust.
                        >
                        >
                        > BTW- There are some books, that Klemp
                        > has approved of, written by non-Eck
                        > authors that Eckists can read. However,
                        > the Eckist must always focus upon the
                        > ECK or Mahanta when reading these
                        > books and, thus, give up free, unfettered,
                        > thought. Some of these books are
                        > recommended to those in leadership
                        > positions and are business oriented.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > So, it wasn't a good mix to say the very least. I finally had it out with one
                        of
                        > the members and I realized that I already left…In my heart, I choose to follow
                        > truth and I also realized that that in Eckankar, I was being deceived. And I
                        > realized that I couldn't have it both ways. I had to pick my convictions and
                        go
                        > with them. After all, why would I go against my own self, and what was in my
                        > heart?
                        >
                        >
                        > ME: It's the easy way to place an
                        > authority figure on a shelf higher
                        > than yourself. Less thinking and
                        > effort is involved when blind trust
                        > takes over. It's lazy but that's what
                        > people do. Look at how we allow
                        > the politicians to say and do as
                        > they please without taking responsibility.
                        > With Klemp, it's always the chela's
                        > fault and never his own! He slowed-
                        > down initiations in 1985, but doesn't
                        > need to explain why these haven't
                        > sped up because he answers to
                        > nobody else, except, Sugmad right?
                        >
                        >
                        > In Eckankar it is taught to open and follow your heart but yet, if you dare
                        open
                        > your mind and begin to ask challenging questions, you're in trouble because
                        > these people think the Mahanta in Eckankar is above all else and should never
                        be
                        > questioned, and your heart should be open to "him", the self appointed master,
                        > Harold Klemp. Even if the members of Eckankar are not honest with themselves
                        > enough to admit it consciously. On a subconscious level, they know better !!!
                        >
                        > ME: That following your heart
                        > thing is more about the Astral
                        > Heart Chakra... which is lower
                        > than the Third Eye or Tisra Til!
                        > Why didn't Klemp at least use
                        > the (Astral) Crown Chakra when
                        > having Eckists HU? After 30 years
                        > and HK still has Eckists HUing
                        > and focusing upon the 6th,
                        > Third Eye, Astral Chakra versus
                        > the 7th Crown Chakra!
                        >
                        >
                        > The shame of it all is that this deception is done in the name of an
                        > unconditional open heart to give love, which it is true, a part of GOD's flow
                        > but where's the truth ? What happened to that part of GOD ??? I guess it got
                        > lost in the sea of love…
                        >
                        >
                        > ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                        > "common language" but it's not
                        > quite true. ECK is not a common
                        > word and neither is Mahanta.
                        > And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                        > to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                        > others worship or think he is speaking
                        > about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                        > use the word GOD when it's not
                        > who or what they are referring
                        > to. It's like comparing apples
                        > to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                        > start out, and are trained, to be
                        > deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                        > fact alone makes Eckankar look
                        > very cult like. But, why the lie?
                        > The "common language" excuse
                        > doesn't hold water but Eckists
                        > can't question this underhanded
                        > practice or else they can have
                        > their position taken away and
                        > be Black Listed and shunned.
                        >
                        > Prometheus
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Hello prometheus_973;
                        > Remember me ? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writ
                        >
                        >
                        > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Hello Rosemarie,
                        > > I am a seeker of Truth as well.
                        > > And yes, this article on "The Dark
                        > > Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
                        > > there is a dark side to Eckankar and
                        > > there is also fear.
                        > >
                        > > I find it interesting that you've
                        > > read (and I assume have contemplated
                        > > upon) David Lane's research as well as
                        > > Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
                        > > and have, still, remained an ECKist.
                        > >
                        > > What happened to your "critical thinking?"
                        > > Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
                        > > you agree with some of it but not all of
                        > > it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
                        > > I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
                        > > isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
                        > > what they believe than any other religion
                        > > they've found. Is that the case with you?
                        > >
                        > > I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
                        > > book, threw it away (because of the bad
                        > > vibes), and then placed themselves upon
                        > > pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
                        > > and talk Eckists through their doubts and
                        > > concerns.
                        > >
                        > > You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
                        > > not all truth is the same. That's why there
                        > > are so many churches. People are social
                        > > animals and tend to seek out others with
                        > > similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
                        > > to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
                        > > to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
                        > > and a test for Soul.
                        > >
                        > > I also got the impression that you don't
                        > > participate much within the RESA structure.
                        > > Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
                        > > Do you know that you have to watch what
                        > > you say? You've observed and learned that
                        > > correct? You do care about being promoted
                        > > to that next initiation right?
                        > >
                        > > Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
                        > > take on the subjects that we've been discussing
                        > > here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
                        > > lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
                        > > for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
                        > > Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
                        > > when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
                        > > "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
                        > > detectors just for his talk?
                        > >
                        > > You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                        > > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
                        > > at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."
                        > >
                        > > BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
                        > > read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?
                        > >
                        > > Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
                        > > the table.
                        > >
                        > > Prometheus
                        > >
                        > > rosemarie wrote:
                        > > Hi Diana,
                        > >
                        > > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on
                        this
                        > path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been
                        > to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that
                        > honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that
                        truth
                        > is truth and will always be the truth.
                        > >
                        > > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we
                        > follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching
                        > which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's
                        remember,
                        > we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much
                        to
                        > bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
                        > >
                        > > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it
                        hurts
                        > sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we
                        must
                        > be brave and remain in truth.
                        > >
                        > > Thank you for getting back to me.
                        > > Rosemarie
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > dianastanley wrote:
                        > >
                        > Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any
                        > direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from
                        > personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time. If it is
                        > hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew and was
                        > their experience I also say.
                        > >
                        > > Diana Stanley
                        > >
                        > > Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
                        > >
                        > > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who
                        > are searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
                        > findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
                        > thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.
                        > >
                        > I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                        > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
                        > have allot to bring to the table.
                        > >
                        > I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
                        > called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
                        > site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because
                        > I'd raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
                        > well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
                        > complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
                        > thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely
                        > objective.
                        >
                        > For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
                        > paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
                        > >
                        > I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
                        > within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on
                        > the facts.
                        > >
                        > I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
                        > the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
                        > belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking.
                        > Do you?
                        >
                      • etznab@aol.com
                        One of Paul Twitchell s first reported journey s with Rebazar Tarzs mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme. Check the index section for Ocean
                        Message 11 of 24 , Sep 14, 2011
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                          One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar Tarzs
                          mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme. Check the
                          index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with the Master.

                          The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless region,
                          [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called THE FACE OF
                          GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying: [Quoting
                          >] "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the light of
                          God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes could not look
                          upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean of Love
                          and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return in time."
                          (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)

                          Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in the House
                          of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens. Ye cannot
                          go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with my divine
                          self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in the divine
                          cause!"

                          Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the Master, has
                          Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting snippet]:

                          "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in a
                          mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
                          attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
                          "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and after
                          this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul reaches
                          the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or the SUGMAD,
                          the supreme LORD of all that exists."

                          http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html

                          Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the description
                          slightly:

                          "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the Sat Nam in
                          a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in all Sat
                          Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the three
                          remaining known planes.
                          "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
                          after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam Purusha, or
                          lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region of the
                          nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first you know
                          about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the Divine.
                          "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."

                          http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html

                          Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is illustrated (by
                          Paul Twitchell) slightly different.

                          "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam Lok.
                          Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the end of its
                          journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the supreme
                          lord of all that exists."

                          http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html

                          The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok, Alak Lok,
                          Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with Ocean of
                          Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip mention of
                          Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.

                          In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master, Introduction to
                          Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes similarly, and
                          in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain sections from
                          The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:

                          "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit is
                          expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal, Nirala,
                          Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
                          Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country

                          http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html

                          "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many words, such
                          as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala, Anami, Agam,
                          Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar, Parameshwar,
                          Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters

                          http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html

                          Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent from the
                          Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR vs.
                          Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian Johnson's book,
                          The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The Far
                          Country, by at least three decades!

                          Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word, trademarked
                          it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is somehow more
                          than a paraphrase.











                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                          <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Wed, Sep 14, 2011 11:17 am
                          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: "The Dark Side of ECKankar" -
                          And More!

                           
                          Hello Postekcon and All,
                          Yes, it was always a conundrum
                          trying to recruit new members
                          via "spreading the word" i.e.
                          manure. However, we had
                          structured public workshops
                          and/or book discussions with
                          Guidelines spelling out what
                          to do and how to do it.

                          Some RESA areas did experimental
                          programs (special projects),
                          and if successful, the ESC
                          tweaked them to be used
                          elsewhere. It was all quite
                          time consuming and frustrating.
                          Local areas and the H.I.s were
                          always judged on the numbers
                          of newbies showing up for
                          these events. Most people
                          were repeats and were into
                          metaphysics or were the friends,
                          coworkers or relatives of Eckists.

                          I recall that one local area
                          of a neighboring state was
                          having a lot of success via
                          large turnouts of newbies.
                          They probably had a couple
                          of hundred newbies in one
                          year and that was practically
                          unheard of in Eckankar. Several
                          of these H.I.s were very proud
                          of the "high counts" they turned
                          in to the ESC. However, out
                          of all of those newbies only
                          about ten joined Eckankar
                          and only, maybe, one or two
                          remained after a year. These,
                          I doubt, remained for the
                          long haul. Let's face it, it's
                          a dead end religion where
                          one pretends, i.e. imagines
                          or visualizes, their desires
                          for "spiritual" progress and
                          "knowingness" or "realization"
                          of varying degrees. The initiation
                          game is the main, underlying,
                          theme. The problem, for Eckists,
                          is that dangling carrot when
                          initiations have been "slowed-
                          down" for 25 years and the
                          highest most can go is the 7th!

                          Those 7th initiates who had
                          hit the glass ceiling 20 or more
                          years ago have rationalized
                          it all away. They only stay in
                          EK because they have some
                          prestige, a lot of Eck friends,
                          and have paid their dues with
                          a lot of vahana and satsang
                          work over the years. Plus, they've
                          been taught to "imagine" and
                          visualize, therefore, all they
                          need to do is pretend they are
                          8ths (on the inner). Most pretend
                          they are higher than 8ths. After
                          all, Darwin skipped or sped up
                          initiations even for Klemp. So,
                          if it was valid, then, why not
                          today? Actually, just about all
                          Eckists pretent they are "higher"
                          than the number printed on
                          their Membership Cards.

                          Anyway, the reason why
                          the EK Youth effort has
                          gained some momentum
                          over the years is because
                          it's easier to brainwash a
                          controlled subject. However,
                          that doesn't always work,
                          either, when these young
                          Eckists see their parents
                          act so nutty and non-Eck
                          like. Plus, reclusive Klemp
                          puts a lot of pressure upon
                          them to do the vahana/
                          missionary thing when
                          it's tough enough getting
                          through school and those
                          teen years. Klemp doesn't
                          have any empathy. He was
                          in a Lutheran all boys high
                          school and never learned
                          about dating until he got
                          out of the Air Force (1968)
                          when he was 26 years old!

                          One has to wonder why
                          Klemp doesn't do his fair
                          share of public vahana work.
                          Why doesn't he have a radio
                          show or do and say something
                          in real time? The EK Seminars
                          don't count. That's for maybe
                          a hundred newbies who aren't
                          all that "new" and for his brain-
                          washed followers.

                          In theory, Klemp's real "spiritual"
                          mission is to help his followers
                          achieve God Realization. However,
                          what Initiation level is the indicator
                          that this has been accomplished?

                          According to Book 2, CH. 12 of
                          the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad (Eckankar's
                          Holy Book) their God, Sugmad,
                          resides on the 10th Plane, however,
                          Eckists must have the 11th Initiation
                          for "entrance into the Sugmad world,
                          which is the highest world of God,
                          if any, may enter."

                          Of course, that's not quite true either
                          since there're the 12th, 13th, and 14th
                          initiations after this one. This, then,
                          is where one (supposedly) enters into
                          Soul's true home called The Ocean of
                          love and Mercy. However, one can see
                          why EK Higher initiates (5-7) become
                          internally frustrated since, except for
                          a handful of people, they will never
                          even see the 8th initiation (in this
                          lifetime). That's the Catch/Con that
                          Twitchell invented and Klemp inherited.
                          Hope via promises for a better afterlife
                          while imagining day-to-day miracles
                          and dreaming about one's pre-programmed
                          expectations. It's how any and every
                          religion works.

                          Prometheus

                          "postekcon" wrote:
                          Re
                          >>>
                          ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                          "common language" but it's not
                          quite true. ECK is not a common
                          word and neither is Mahanta.
                          And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                          to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                          others worship or think he is speaking
                          about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                          use the word GOD when it's not
                          who or what they are referring
                          to. It's like comparing apples
                          to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                          start out, and are trained, to be
                          deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                          fact alone makes Eckankar look
                          very cult like. But, why the lie?
                          The "common language" excuse
                          doesn't hold water but Eckists
                          can't question this underhanded
                          practice or else they can have
                          their position taken away and
                          can be Black Listed and shunned.
                          >>>

                          For the past ten years, I have observed this pattern.

                          Hard working HIs (50-70yrs plus) busy putting on Intro Talks,
                          occasionally
                          enrolling a new recruit to ekult.

                          However, within a year or two, the new recruit leaves ekult as nothing
                          makes
                          sense! Of course, the HIs, unable to look at either themselves or
                          ekult, always
                          blame the new recruit with comments such as lack of unfoldment etc!

                          For the new recruit, the reason nothing makes sense, I've observed, is
                          thus. The
                          HIs bring the new recruit into Paul Twitchell/Darwin Gross ekult; the
                          ekult into
                          which they themselved were enrolled. Now this version of ekult promised
                          it had
                          the tools for self/god realization in this lifetime etc. However,
                          several MW
                          (Mystic World) issues later, the new recruit comes to understand these
                          'good
                          people' lied to them!
                          -Postekcon

                          In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                          <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hello All,
                          > Just thought I'd share some
                          > additional comments to what
                          > Starshine wrote.
                          >
                          > starshine917 wrote:
                          > Hello prometheus_973:
                          > Remember me? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writing to you
                          now….exactly, one
                          > year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I didn't
                          plan it like
                          > this but somehow it just worked out this way.
                          >
                          >
                          > ME: Yes, it takes awhile for the
                          > realization to occur and sink in
                          > even after one decides to look
                          > for and analyze it via critical
                          > thinking while giving HK's/PT's
                          > redundant words a litmus test
                          > for truthiness.
                          >
                          >
                          > I recently left Eckankar. And, you were right….I read David Lane's
                          paper as
                          well as Ford Johnson's "Confessions of a God Seeker" And, for some
                          reason at
                          that time I remained in the group tying to focus on the so-called
                          positive side
                          of the Eckankar, the hypnotic rederick that goes nowhere while ignoring
                          the
                          facts.

                          > I then started to take a good look at Harold…looked into his
                          "dark" eyes and
                          > listened to his figure of monotone speak and I realized it was
                          very hypnotic,
                          > and at the same time very inviting. I wondered who or what was
                          inside of those
                          > dark eyes….And they seem to always come as "the light". Yes, the
                          "angel of
                          > light".
                          >
                          >
                          > ME: Klemp is no angel of light! He spreads
                          > darkness and delusion while denying Eckists
                          > their true nature as Soul. He gives (hope),
                          > promises (higher plane initiations), and then
                          > takes it all away (hope of ever getting beyond
                          > the 7th initiation while in this lifetime, unless,
                          > one pretends or imagines they are higher
                          > via vanity and frustration).
                          >
                          >
                          > I was in a satsang at that time and I found it disturbing more and
                          more that
                          his
                          > same picture of himself, which by the way never changes, the one
                          and only
                          > picture that has to be present at all Eckankar meetings was never
                          questioned
                          by
                          > it's members. All the books we studied were written by him and
                          only him !!!
                          And
                          > how some members were "higher" than others depending on their
                          "initiation"
                          > number, even if these people knew absolutely nothing except what
                          was written
                          in
                          > the books of Eckankar. Some of these people seemed to have anger
                          issues too
                          > which didn't seem to fit the spiritual portrait of a saint they
                          painted. I
                          > started to feel uncomfortable around these people cause they
                          seemed more and
                          > more to me like mind-controlled slaves. And, they too could see
                          that I was
                          > thinking and starting to pull away because I no longer looked to
                          them without
                          > question, with blind authority.
                          >
                          >
                          > ME: Yes, that more youthful looking
                          > Official Picture of Klemp's is a vain act,
                          > but is never questioned because to do
                          > so would get one Black Listed on initiations.
                          > Those longtime Eckists who are part
                          > of the RESA Hierarchy know what I'm
                          > saying. Some H.I.s are fearful/cautious
                          > of the spies that report to the RESA and
                          > only share certain things (anti-Guideline
                          > comments, etc.) around those H.I.s they
                          > can trust.
                          >
                          >
                          > BTW- There are some books, that Klemp
                          > has approved of, written by non-Eck
                          > authors that Eckists can read. However,
                          > the Eckist must always focus upon the
                          > ECK or Mahanta when reading these
                          > books and, thus, give up free, unfettered,
                          > thought. Some of these books are
                          > recommended to those in leadership
                          > positions and are business oriented.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > So, it wasn't a good mix to say the very least. I finally had it
                          out with one
                          of
                          > the members and I realized that I already left…In my heart, I
                          choose to follow
                          > truth and I also realized that that in Eckankar, I was being
                          deceived. And I
                          > realized that I couldn't have it both ways. I had to pick my
                          convictions and
                          go
                          > with them. After all, why would I go against my own self, and what
                          was in my
                          > heart?
                          >
                          >
                          > ME: It's the easy way to place an
                          > authority figure on a shelf higher
                          > than yourself. Less thinking and
                          > effort is involved when blind trust
                          > takes over. It's lazy but that's what
                          > people do. Look at how we allow
                          > the politicians to say and do as
                          > they please without taking responsibility.
                          > With Klemp, it's always the chela's
                          > fault and never his own! He slowed-
                          > down initiations in 1985, but doesn't
                          > need to explain why these haven't
                          > sped up because he answers to
                          > nobody else, except, Sugmad right?
                          >
                          >
                          > In Eckankar it is taught to open and follow your heart but yet, if
                          you dare
                          open
                          > your mind and begin to ask challenging questions, you're in
                          trouble because
                          > these people think the Mahanta in Eckankar is above all else and
                          should never
                          be
                          > questioned, and your heart should be open to "him", the self
                          appointed master,
                          > Harold Klemp. Even if the members of Eckankar are not honest with
                          themselves
                          > enough to admit it consciously. On a subconscious level, they know
                          better !!!
                          >
                          > ME: That following your heart
                          > thing is more about the Astral
                          > Heart Chakra... which is lower
                          > than the Third Eye or Tisra Til!
                          > Why didn't Klemp at least use
                          > the (Astral) Crown Chakra when
                          > having Eckists HU? After 30 years
                          > and HK still has Eckists HUing
                          > and focusing upon the 6th,
                          > Third Eye, Astral Chakra versus
                          > the 7th Crown Chakra!
                          >
                          >
                          > The shame of it all is that this deception is done in the name of
                          an
                          > unconditional open heart to give love, which it is true, a part of
                          GOD's flow
                          > but where's the truth ? What happened to that part of GOD ??? I
                          guess it got
                          > lost in the sea of love…
                          >
                          >
                          > ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                          > "common language" but it's not
                          > quite true. ECK is not a common
                          > word and neither is Mahanta.
                          > And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                          > to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                          > others worship or think he is speaking
                          > about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                          > use the word GOD when it's not
                          > who or what they are referring
                          > to. It's like comparing apples
                          > to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                          > start out, and are trained, to be
                          > deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                          > fact alone makes Eckankar look
                          > very cult like. But, why the lie?
                          > The "common language" excuse
                          > doesn't hold water but Eckists
                          > can't question this underhanded
                          > practice or else they can have
                          > their position taken away and
                          > be Black Listed and shunned.
                          >
                          > Prometheus
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Hello prometheus_973;
                          > Remember me ? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writ
                          >
                          >
                          > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Hello Rosemarie,
                          > > I am a seeker of Truth as well.
                          > > And yes, this article on "The Dark
                          > > Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
                          > > there is a dark side to Eckankar and
                          > > there is also fear.
                          > >
                          > > I find it interesting that you've
                          > > read (and I assume have contemplated
                          > > upon) David Lane's research as well as
                          > > Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
                          > > and have, still, remained an ECKist.
                          > >
                          > > What happened to your "critical thinking?"
                          > > Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
                          > > you agree with some of it but not all of
                          > > it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
                          > > I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
                          > > isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
                          > > what they believe than any other religion
                          > > they've found. Is that the case with you?
                          > >
                          > > I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
                          > > book, threw it away (because of the bad
                          > > vibes), and then placed themselves upon
                          > > pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
                          > > and talk Eckists through their doubts and
                          > > concerns.
                          > >
                          > > You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
                          > > not all truth is the same. That's why there
                          > > are so many churches. People are social
                          > > animals and tend to seek out others with
                          > > similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
                          > > to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
                          > > to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
                          > > and a test for Soul.
                          > >
                          > > I also got the impression that you don't
                          > > participate much within the RESA structure.
                          > > Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
                          > > Do you know that you have to watch what
                          > > you say? You've observed and learned that
                          > > correct? You do care about being promoted
                          > > to that next initiation right?
                          > >
                          > > Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
                          > > take on the subjects that we've been discussing
                          > > here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
                          > > lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
                          > > for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
                          > > Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
                          > > when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
                          > > "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
                          > > detectors just for his talk?
                          > >
                          > > You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                          > > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
                          > > at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."
                          > >
                          > > BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
                          > > read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?
                          > >
                          > > Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
                          > > the table.
                          > >
                          > > Prometheus
                          > >
                          > > rosemarie wrote:
                          > > Hi Diana,
                          > >
                          > > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar
                          and while on
                          this
                          > path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as
                          well. I've been
                          > to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I
                          agree that
                          > honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also
                          understand that
                          truth
                          > is truth and will always be the truth.
                          > >
                          > > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless
                          of what path we
                          > follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are
                          all searching
                          > which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and
                          let's
                          remember,
                          > we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We
                          have so much
                          to
                          > bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and
                          experience.
                          > >
                          > > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it
                          even if it
                          hurts
                          > sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back
                          to GOD, we
                          must
                          > be brave and remain in truth.
                          > >
                          > > Thank you for getting back to me.
                          > > Rosemarie
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > dianastanley wrote:
                          > >
                          > Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you
                          have any
                          > direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it
                          is from
                          > personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time.
                          If it is
                          > hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew
                          and was
                          > their experience I also say.
                          > >
                          > > Diana Stanley
                          > >
                          > > Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
                          > >
                          > > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for
                          those of you who
                          > are searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for
                          sharing your
                          > findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light"
                          of critical
                          > thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.
                          > >
                          > I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar
                          has issues.
                          > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this
                          site, so we
                          > have allot to bring to the table.
                          > >
                          > I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used
                          in this paper
                          > called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links"
                          in this web
                          > site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of
                          challenge because
                          > I'd raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this
                          paper as
                          > well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be
                          painted with
                          > complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of
                          critical
                          > thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being
                          completely
                          > objective.
                          >
                          > For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack
                          ECKankar in this
                          > paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they
                          originated.
                          > >
                          > I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure
                          is overdo
                          > within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is
                          based on
                          > the facts.
                          > >
                          > I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't
                          think
                          > the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within
                          one religious
                          > belief system and exchange them for another in the name of
                          critical thinking.
                          > Do you?
                          >
                        • prometheus_973
                          Hello Etznab and All, It is interesting that Twitchell has his Rebazar character (the Master who initiated him) indicate that there were 8 Planes just as
                          Message 12 of 24 , Sep 16, 2011
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hello Etznab and All,
                            It is interesting that Twitchell
                            has his Rebazar character (the
                            "Master" who initiated him)
                            indicate that there were 8 Planes
                            just as Radhasomi and Ruhani
                            Satsang have listed in "The Path
                            of the Masters." Since Kirpal
                            Singh, of Ruhani Satsang, was
                            Paul's real life Master for ten years
                            it's no wonder that this dogma was
                            influential in the design of Eckankar.

                            Of course, Twitchell was constantly
                            tweaking, revising, and masking his
                            religious con as time went by.

                            The Anami Lok (10th Plane where
                            "Sugmad" resides) didn't appear until
                            later. Did Rebazar simply forget to
                            mention this as well as the "Mahanta?"
                            Did RT think that Paul needed to be
                            spoon-fed and wasn't ready for this
                            advanced "spiritual" info? No, not really.
                            According to Twitchell he had been
                            given the 12th and "final initiation"
                            (to become LEM) back in 1951 by
                            Rebazar while on his "2nd" visit to
                            India. See, the timeline is off for this
                            ekplanation to be taken seriously as
                            well.

                            Therefore, there is no rational excuse
                            for these inconsistencies except to
                            admit that the "rascal" Twitchell was,
                            once again, "exaggerating" and "twisting
                            facts" as even Klemp has described
                            and said of him. Klemp, years ago,
                            had to admit that Twitchell was a self-
                            promoter and did or said whatever
                            he needed to do ("By Any Means Necessary")
                            in order to get Eckankar off the ground.

                            This is why Klemp, at first, had a
                            difficult job of explaining Twitchell's
                            inconsistencies and needed to keep
                            Eckists confused, busy, and off-balance.
                            Now, Eckists are so brainwashed that
                            Klemp can say whatever in his simple
                            minded redundant versions of feel-good
                            New Age spirituality.


                            Prometheus



                            etznab wrote:

                            One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar Tarzs
                            mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme. Check the
                            index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with the Master.

                            The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless region,
                            [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called THE FACE OF
                            GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying: [Quoting]
                            "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the light of
                            God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes could not look
                            upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean of Love
                            and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return in time."
                            (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)

                            Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in the House
                            of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens. Ye cannot
                            go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with my divine
                            self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in the divine
                            cause!"

                            Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the Master, has
                            Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting snippet]:

                            "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in a
                            mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
                            attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
                            "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and after
                            this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul reaches
                            the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or the SUGMAD,
                            the supreme LORD of all that exists."

                            http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html

                            Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the description
                            slightly:

                            "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the Sat Nam in
                            a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in all Sat
                            Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the three
                            remaining known planes.

                            "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
                            after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam Purusha, or
                            lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region of the
                            nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first you know
                            about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the Divine.

                            "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."

                            http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html

                            Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is illustrated (by
                            Paul Twitchell) slightly different.

                            "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam Lok.
                            Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the end of its
                            journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the supreme
                            lord of all that exists."

                            http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html

                            The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok, Alak Lok,
                            Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with Ocean of
                            Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip mention of
                            Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.

                            In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master, Introduction to
                            Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes similarly, and
                            in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain sections from
                            The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:

                            "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit is
                            expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal, Nirala,
                            Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
                            Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country

                            http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html

                            "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many words, such
                            as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala, Anami, Agam,
                            Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar, Parameshwar,
                            Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters

                            http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html

                            Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent from the
                            Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR vs.
                            Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian Johnson's book,
                            The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The Far
                            Country, by at least three decades!

                            Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word, trademarked
                            it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is somehow more
                            than a paraphrase.
                          • etznab18
                            Almost didn t see this response because the e-mail bounced. Umm ... about the self-promotion, whatever, people can read about some of the history here.
                            Message 13 of 24 , Sep 16, 2011
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Almost didn't see this response because the e-mail bounced.

                              Umm ... about the self-promotion, whatever, people can read about some of the history here.

                              http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html

                              Check out 4th paragraph of article entitled: Paul's Seal of Approval.

                              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hello Etznab and All,
                              > It is interesting that Twitchell
                              > has his Rebazar character (the
                              > "Master" who initiated him)
                              > indicate that there were 8 Planes
                              > just as Radhasomi and Ruhani
                              > Satsang have listed in "The Path
                              > of the Masters." Since Kirpal
                              > Singh, of Ruhani Satsang, was
                              > Paul's real life Master for ten years
                              > it's no wonder that this dogma was
                              > influential in the design of Eckankar.
                              >
                              > Of course, Twitchell was constantly
                              > tweaking, revising, and masking his
                              > religious con as time went by.
                              >
                              > The Anami Lok (10th Plane where
                              > "Sugmad" resides) didn't appear until
                              > later. Did Rebazar simply forget to
                              > mention this as well as the "Mahanta?"
                              > Did RT think that Paul needed to be
                              > spoon-fed and wasn't ready for this
                              > advanced "spiritual" info? No, not really.
                              > According to Twitchell he had been
                              > given the 12th and "final initiation"
                              > (to become LEM) back in 1951 by
                              > Rebazar while on his "2nd" visit to
                              > India. See, the timeline is off for this
                              > ekplanation to be taken seriously as
                              > well.
                              >
                              > Therefore, there is no rational excuse
                              > for these inconsistencies except to
                              > admit that the "rascal" Twitchell was,
                              > once again, "exaggerating" and "twisting
                              > facts" as even Klemp has described
                              > and said of him. Klemp, years ago,
                              > had to admit that Twitchell was a self-
                              > promoter and did or said whatever
                              > he needed to do ("By Any Means Necessary")
                              > in order to get Eckankar off the ground.
                              >
                              > This is why Klemp, at first, had a
                              > difficult job of explaining Twitchell's
                              > inconsistencies and needed to keep
                              > Eckists confused, busy, and off-balance.
                              > Now, Eckists are so brainwashed that
                              > Klemp can say whatever in his simple
                              > minded redundant versions of feel-good
                              > New Age spirituality.
                              >
                              >
                              > Prometheus
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > etznab wrote:
                              >
                              > One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar Tarzs
                              > mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme. Check the
                              > index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with the Master.
                              >
                              > The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless region,
                              > [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called THE FACE OF
                              > GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying: [Quoting]
                              > "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the light of
                              > God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes could not look
                              > upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean of Love
                              > and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return in time."
                              > (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)
                              >
                              > Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in the House
                              > of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens. Ye cannot
                              > go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with my divine
                              > self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in the divine
                              > cause!"
                              >
                              > Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the Master, has
                              > Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting snippet]:
                              >
                              > "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in a
                              > mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
                              > attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
                              > "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and after
                              > this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul reaches
                              > the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or the SUGMAD,
                              > the supreme LORD of all that exists."
                              >
                              > http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html
                              >
                              > Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the description
                              > slightly:
                              >
                              > "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the Sat Nam in
                              > a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in all Sat
                              > Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the three
                              > remaining known planes.
                              >
                              > "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
                              > after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam Purusha, or
                              > lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region of the
                              > nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first you know
                              > about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the Divine.
                              >
                              > "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."
                              >
                              > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                              >
                              > Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is illustrated (by
                              > Paul Twitchell) slightly different.
                              >
                              > "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam Lok.
                              > Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the end of its
                              > journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the supreme
                              > lord of all that exists."
                              >
                              > http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html
                              >
                              > The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok, Alak Lok,
                              > Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with Ocean of
                              > Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip mention of
                              > Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.
                              >
                              > In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master, Introduction to
                              > Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes similarly, and
                              > in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain sections from
                              > The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:
                              >
                              > "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit is
                              > expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal, Nirala,
                              > Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
                              > Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country
                              >
                              > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                              >
                              > "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many words, such
                              > as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala, Anami, Agam,
                              > Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar, Parameshwar,
                              > Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters
                              >
                              > http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html
                              >
                              > Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent from the
                              > Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR vs.
                              > Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian Johnson's book,
                              > The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The Far
                              > Country, by at least three decades!
                              >
                              > Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word, trademarked
                              > it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is somehow more
                              > than a paraphrase.
                              >
                            • prometheus_973
                              Hello Etznab and All, This tells how Paul Twitchell was His Own Drum Beater: http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html What s interesting is that at
                              Message 14 of 24 , Sep 17, 2011
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                                Hello Etznab and All,
                                This tells how Paul Twitchell
                                was His Own Drum Beater:

                                http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html

                                What's interesting is that at age 27 (1935)
                                Twitchell was saying that he had been
                                to India (supposedly at age 15 to meet
                                Rebazar for the first time, DOBTLEM).
                                However, Klemp points out that Twitchell
                                was doing another self-promotion, and
                                was lying in order to get into Who's Who
                                in Kentucky. Klemp states that Twitchell
                                had never been all that far from home
                                at age 27. Klemp seems to have stepped
                                into a big pile of Twits mess. HK's
                                statement contradicts what Twitchell
                                revealed in Difficulties of Becoming the
                                Living ECK Master circa July, 1971. This
                                1971 date is, supposedly, long after Twitchell
                                (the Mahanta) was was no longer "exaggerating"
                                and "twisting facts." However, as Klemp
                                has pointed out Twitchell was still lying
                                and promoting his con up until his untimely
                                and death in September, 1971.

                                Prometheus

                                etznab@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Almost didn't see this response because the e-mail bounced.
                                >
                                > Umm ... about the self-promotion, whatever, people can read about some of the history here.
                                >
                                > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html
                                >
                                > Check out 4th paragraph of article entitled: Paul's Seal of Approval.
                                >
                                > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Hello Etznab and All,
                                > > It is interesting that Twitchell
                                > > has his Rebazar character (the
                                > > "Master" who initiated him)
                                > > indicate that there were 8 Planes
                                > > just as Radhasomi and Ruhani
                                > > Satsang have listed in "The Path
                                > > of the Masters." Since Kirpal
                                > > Singh, of Ruhani Satsang, was
                                > > Paul's real life Master for ten years
                                > > it's no wonder that this dogma was
                                > > influential in the design of Eckankar.
                                > >
                                > > Of course, Twitchell was constantly
                                > > tweaking, revising, and masking his
                                > > religious con as time went by.
                                > >
                                > > The Anami Lok (10th Plane where
                                > > "Sugmad" resides) didn't appear until
                                > > later. Did Rebazar simply forget to
                                > > mention this as well as the "Mahanta?"
                                > > Did RT think that Paul needed to be
                                > > spoon-fed and wasn't ready for this
                                > > advanced "spiritual" info? No, not really.
                                > > According to Twitchell he had been
                                > > given the 12th and "final initiation"
                                > > (to become LEM) back in 1951 by
                                > > Rebazar while on his "2nd" visit to
                                > > India. See, the timeline is off for this
                                > > ekplanation to be taken seriously as
                                > > well.
                                > >
                                > > Therefore, there is no rational excuse
                                > > for these inconsistencies except to
                                > > admit that the "rascal" Twitchell was,
                                > > once again, "exaggerating" and "twisting
                                > > facts" as even Klemp has described
                                > > and said of him. Klemp, years ago,
                                > > had to admit that Twitchell was a self-
                                > > promoter and did or said whatever
                                > > he needed to do ("By Any Means Necessary")
                                > > in order to get Eckankar off the ground.
                                > >
                                > > This is why Klemp, at first, had a
                                > > difficult job of explaining Twitchell's
                                > > inconsistencies and needed to keep
                                > > Eckists confused, busy, and off-balance.
                                > > Now, Eckists are so brainwashed that
                                > > Klemp can say whatever in his simple
                                > > minded redundant versions of feel-good
                                > > New Age spirituality.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Prometheus
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > etznab wrote:
                                > >
                                > > One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar Tarzs
                                > > mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme. Check the
                                > > index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with the Master.
                                > >
                                > > The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless region,
                                > > [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called THE FACE OF
                                > > GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying: [Quoting]
                                > > "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the light of
                                > > God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes could not look
                                > > upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean of Love
                                > > and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return in time."
                                > > (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)
                                > >
                                > > Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in the House
                                > > of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens. Ye cannot
                                > > go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with my divine
                                > > self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in the divine
                                > > cause!"
                                > >
                                > > Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the Master, has
                                > > Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting snippet]:
                                > >
                                > > "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in a
                                > > mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
                                > > attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
                                > > "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and after
                                > > this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul reaches
                                > > the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or the SUGMAD,
                                > > the supreme LORD of all that exists."
                                > >
                                > > http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html
                                > >
                                > > Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the description
                                > > slightly:
                                > >
                                > > "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the Sat Nam in
                                > > a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in all Sat
                                > > Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the three
                                > > remaining known planes.
                                > >
                                > > "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
                                > > after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam Purusha, or
                                > > lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region of the
                                > > nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first you know
                                > > about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the Divine.
                                > >
                                > > "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."
                                > >
                                > > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                > >
                                > > Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is illustrated (by
                                > > Paul Twitchell) slightly different.
                                > >
                                > > "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam Lok.
                                > > Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the end of its
                                > > journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the supreme
                                > > lord of all that exists."
                                > >
                                > > http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html
                                > >
                                > > The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok, Alak Lok,
                                > > Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with Ocean of
                                > > Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip mention of
                                > > Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.
                                > >
                                > > In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master, Introduction to
                                > > Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes similarly, and
                                > > in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain sections from
                                > > The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:
                                > >
                                > > "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit is
                                > > expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal, Nirala,
                                > > Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
                                > > Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country
                                > >
                                > > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                > >
                                > > "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many words, such
                                > > as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala, Anami, Agam,
                                > > Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar, Parameshwar,
                                > > Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters
                                > >
                                > > http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html
                                > >
                                > > Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent from the
                                > > Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR vs.
                                > > Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian Johnson's book,
                                > > The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The Far
                                > > Country, by at least three decades!
                                > >
                                > > Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word, trademarked
                                > > it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is somehow more
                                > > than a paraphrase.
                                > >
                                >
                              • etznab@aol.com
                                I think a lot of people can overlook this stuff, thinking that whatever Paul Twitchell said/wrote must be the truth. Some people just might not care. Well,
                                Message 15 of 24 , Sep 17, 2011
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                                  I think a lot of people can overlook this stuff, thinking that whatever
                                  Paul Twitchell said/wrote must be the truth. Some people just might not
                                  care. Well, it's reasonable to suspect this talent - for promotion,
                                  even when it means making things up, stretching the truth, or just
                                  plain spinning lies - was used to "create" the Eckankar mythos.

                                  myth

                                  1830, from Gk. mythos "speech, thought, story, myth," of unknown origin.

                                  Myths are "stories about divine beings, generally arranged in a
                                  coherent system; they are revered as true and sacred; they are endorsed
                                  by rulers and priests; and closely linked to religion. Once this link
                                  is broken, and the actors in the story are not regarded as gods but as
                                  human heroes, giants or fairies, it is no longer a myth but a folktale.
                                  Where the central actor is divine but the story is trivial ... the
                                  result is religious legend, not myth." [J. Simpson & S. Roud,
                                  "Dictionary of English Folklore," Oxford, 2000, p.254]

                                  General sense of "untrue story, rumor" is from 1840.

                                  http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=mythos&searchmode=none

                                  In other words, amid all the compilations and recycled material, etc.,
                                  context has been changed (in various places) when it comes to source. I
                                  wonder, could Paul Twitchell have created "Eckankar" and at the same
                                  time given the source for all of his material? I noticed Kirpal Singh
                                  and others were very good at citing references and sharing what
                                  quote/saying came from who. So if Paul Twitchell ever chose to use
                                  passages and paragraphs from books, Did he always feel obligated to
                                  provide that information?

                                  As a promoter, I suspect the person wants to give credit to whatever
                                  they're promoting and not give more credit to "other products" instead.
                                  It makes sense (to me) that Paul Twitchell would "paint the name
                                  Eckankar" over so much material he had read (in so many words). Not
                                  only this, but it even appears probable that Paul Twitchell took
                                  liberty to respell and redefine words according to fit them in a new,
                                  and growing, Eckankar philosophy. Not only words, but names too!

                                  How extensive the promotion and PR campaign that created contemporary
                                  Eckankar teaching? In so many ways, it seems this is the part that
                                  doesn't agree with people. Not unless they knew from the beginning that
                                  information was not necessarily accurate and in some places embellished.

                                  embellish

                                  mid-14c., "to render beautiful," from O.Fr. embelliss-, stem of
                                  embellir "make beautiful, ornament," from em- (see en- (1)) + bel
                                  "beautiful," from L. bellus (see bene-). Meaning "dress up (a
                                  narration) with fictitious matter" is from mid-15c. Related:
                                  Embellished; embellishing.

                                  http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=embellished&searchmode=none

                                  Reading through early Eckankar books I think common sense might tell a
                                  person that parts of the material was embellished. At the same time I
                                  also think people could naturally so much want the material to be true
                                  that they allow imagination to "make it so" and overrule common sense.

                                  Ever observe what happens when you're part of a group where countless
                                  individuals believe in things - through imagination - that aren't
                                  necessarily true? I mean, when you're one of the unbelievers and part
                                  of the minority who question whether so many imagined things are true?


                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                                  <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Sat, Sep 17, 2011 2:14 am
                                  Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: "The Dark Side of ECKankar" -
                                  And More!

                                   
                                  Hello Etznab and All,
                                  This tells how Paul Twitchell
                                  was His Own Drum Beater:

                                  http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html

                                  What's interesting is that at age 27 (1935)
                                  Twitchell was saying that he had been
                                  to India (supposedly at age 15 to meet
                                  Rebazar for the first time, DOBTLEM).
                                  However, Klemp points out that Twitchell
                                  was doing another self-promotion, and
                                  was lying in order to get into Who's Who
                                  in Kentucky. Klemp states that Twitchell
                                  had never been all that far from home
                                  at age 27. Klemp seems to have stepped
                                  into a big pile of Twits mess. HK's
                                  statement contradicts what Twitchell
                                  revealed in Difficulties of Becoming the
                                  Living ECK Master circa July, 1971. This
                                  1971 date is, supposedly, long after Twitchell
                                  (the Mahanta) was was no longer "exaggerating"
                                  and "twisting facts." However, as Klemp
                                  has pointed out Twitchell was still lying
                                  and promoting his con up until his untimely
                                  and death in September, 1971.

                                  Prometheus

                                  etznab@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Almost didn't see this response because the e-mail bounced.
                                  >
                                  > Umm ... about the self-promotion, whatever, people can read about
                                  some of the history here.
                                  >
                                  > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html
                                  >
                                  > Check out 4th paragraph of article entitled: Paul's Seal of
                                  Approval.
                                  >
                                  > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                                  "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Hello Etznab and All,
                                  > > It is interesting that Twitchell
                                  > > has his Rebazar character (the
                                  > > "Master" who initiated him)
                                  > > indicate that there were 8 Planes
                                  > > just as Radhasomi and Ruhani
                                  > > Satsang have listed in "The Path
                                  > > of the Masters." Since Kirpal
                                  > > Singh, of Ruhani Satsang, was
                                  > > Paul's real life Master for ten years
                                  > > it's no wonder that this dogma was
                                  > > influential in the design of Eckankar.
                                  > >
                                  > > Of course, Twitchell was constantly
                                  > > tweaking, revising, and masking his
                                  > > religious con as time went by.
                                  > >
                                  > > The Anami Lok (10th Plane where
                                  > > "Sugmad" resides) didn't appear until
                                  > > later. Did Rebazar simply forget to
                                  > > mention this as well as the "Mahanta?"
                                  > > Did RT think that Paul needed to be
                                  > > spoon-fed and wasn't ready for this
                                  > > advanced "spiritual" info? No, not really.
                                  > > According to Twitchell he had been
                                  > > given the 12th and "final initiation"
                                  > > (to become LEM) back in 1951 by
                                  > > Rebazar while on his "2nd" visit to
                                  > > India. See, the timeline is off for this
                                  > > ekplanation to be taken seriously as
                                  > > well.
                                  > >
                                  > > Therefore, there is no rational excuse
                                  > > for these inconsistencies except to
                                  > > admit that the "rascal" Twitchell was,
                                  > > once again, "exaggerating" and "twisting
                                  > > facts" as even Klemp has described
                                  > > and said of him. Klemp, years ago,
                                  > > had to admit that Twitchell was a self-
                                  > > promoter and did or said whatever
                                  > > he needed to do ("By Any Means Necessary")
                                  > > in order to get Eckankar off the ground.
                                  > >
                                  > > This is why Klemp, at first, had a
                                  > > difficult job of explaining Twitchell's
                                  > > inconsistencies and needed to keep
                                  > > Eckists confused, busy, and off-balance.
                                  > > Now, Eckists are so brainwashed that
                                  > > Klemp can say whatever in his simple
                                  > > minded redundant versions of feel-good
                                  > > New Age spirituality.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Prometheus
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > etznab wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar
                                  Tarzs
                                  > > mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme.
                                  Check the
                                  > > index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with
                                  the Master.
                                  > >
                                  > > The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless
                                  region,
                                  > > [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called
                                  THE FACE OF
                                  > > GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying:
                                  [Quoting]
                                  > > "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the
                                  light of
                                  > > God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes
                                  could not look
                                  > > upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean
                                  of Love
                                  > > and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return
                                  in time."
                                  > > (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)
                                  > >
                                  > > Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in
                                  the House
                                  > > of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens.
                                  Ye cannot
                                  > > go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with
                                  my divine
                                  > > self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in
                                  the divine
                                  > > cause!"
                                  > >
                                  > > Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the
                                  Master, has
                                  > > Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting
                                  snippet]:
                                  > >
                                  > > "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in
                                  a
                                  > > mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
                                  > > attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
                                  > > "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
                                  after
                                  > > this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul
                                  reaches
                                  > > the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or
                                  the SUGMAD,
                                  > > the supreme LORD of all that exists."
                                  > >
                                  > > http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html
                                  > >
                                  > > Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the
                                  description
                                  > > slightly:
                                  > >
                                  > > "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the
                                  Sat Nam in
                                  > > a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in
                                  all Sat
                                  > > Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the
                                  three
                                  > > remaining known planes.
                                  > >
                                  > > "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha,
                                  and
                                  > > after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam
                                  Purusha, or
                                  > > lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region
                                  of the
                                  > > nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first
                                  you know
                                  > > about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the
                                  Divine.
                                  > >
                                  > > "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."
                                  > >
                                  > > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                  > >
                                  > > Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is
                                  illustrated (by
                                  > > Paul Twitchell) slightly different.
                                  > >
                                  > > "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam
                                  Lok.
                                  > > Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the
                                  end of its
                                  > > journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the
                                  supreme
                                  > > lord of all that exists."
                                  > >
                                  > > http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html
                                  > >
                                  > > The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok,
                                  Alak Lok,
                                  > > Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with
                                  Ocean of
                                  > > Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip
                                  mention of
                                  > > Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.
                                  > >
                                  > > In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master,
                                  Introduction to
                                  > > Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes
                                  similarly, and
                                  > > in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain
                                  sections from
                                  > > The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:
                                  > >
                                  > > "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit
                                  is
                                  > > expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal,
                                  Nirala,
                                  > > Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
                                  > > Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country
                                  > >
                                  > > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                  > >
                                  > > "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many
                                  words, such
                                  > > as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala,
                                  Anami, Agam,
                                  > > Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar,
                                  Parameshwar,
                                  > > Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters
                                  > >
                                  > > http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html
                                  > >
                                  > > Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent
                                  from the
                                  > > Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR
                                  vs.
                                  > > Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian
                                  Johnson's book,
                                  > > The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The
                                  Far
                                  > > Country, by at least three decades!
                                  > >
                                  > > Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word,
                                  trademarked
                                  > > it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is
                                  somehow more
                                  > > than a paraphrase.
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • prometheus_973
                                  Hello Etznab and All, It s true that most Eckists have turned a blind eye towards their religion. However, it s done via Klemp s subtle and not so subtle
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Sep 17, 2011
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hello Etznab and All,
                                    It's true that most Eckists have
                                    turned a blind eye towards their
                                    religion. However, it's done via
                                    Klemp's subtle and not so subtle
                                    intimidation tactics such as:

                                    Going to the "inner" to have
                                    one's questions answered...
                                    this is what the more "advanced"
                                    and "enlightened" Eckists do.

                                    Using the Buddha quote of, "Is
                                    it true, is it necessary, is it kind"
                                    this I ask myself before I speak
                                    my mind.

                                    HK writing articles and giving
                                    talks on the negativity of gossip
                                    and how it hinders one's "spiritual"
                                    growth.

                                    Also, there's the unspoken knowledge
                                    that those who ask too many questions,
                                    especially "wrong" questions, will get
                                    Eckists Black Listed on initiations or
                                    to have them slowed down 3-5 years
                                    (on average) longer than normal.

                                    Plus, Eckankar's Higher Initiates
                                    (5-7) are a very passive group
                                    and don't want to question the
                                    foundation of their religion because
                                    things are going okay so why rock
                                    the boat? Being an H.I. is an ego
                                    trip and a security blanket too.

                                    And, let's face it, most Eckists don't
                                    have the time or inclination to research
                                    the old, P.T., Eckankar texts. They've
                                    read it all before so why go back and
                                    read it with new eyes and a changed
                                    consciousness? However, it does make
                                    one wonder why they've allowed them-
                                    selves to be shackled to HK's dogma
                                    when it's all based upon Twitchell's
                                    "compilation."

                                    In PT's Eckankar Dictionary, Shariyat
                                    One and HK's First Lexicon, they
                                    tell about the first "root race" called
                                    the "POLARIANS." Klemp must agree
                                    with Twitchell on this dogmatic information
                                    since he put it into his own Eckankar
                                    Lexicon.

                                    But, do Eckists really believe in the
                                    Old Testament Christian Myth about
                                    the Garden of Eden? Actually, no,
                                    they don't! I've even read where
                                    they've made fun of this. How ironic!
                                    Twitchell not only states that the
                                    Garden of Eden existed but gives
                                    his own (revised) names of those
                                    present. In the ECK version Adam
                                    becomes "Adom" and Eve becomes
                                    "Ede" (like in Eden) This is, of course,
                                    a clear picture of how Twitchell created
                                    Eckankar. He took certain words,
                                    names, and information changed
                                    the text and letters around, or added
                                    and omitted letters, and made the
                                    info his own.

                                    What's really funny is that in defense
                                    of Twitchell Klemp has claimed that
                                    Paul "compiled" only the highest teachings
                                    from around the world in order to
                                    create the highest "spiritual" teaching
                                    anywhere and at anytime. Why then,
                                    did Twitchell use the Garden of Eden
                                    myth, and create Adom and Ede?
                                    Is this supposed to be the actual
                                    account while the Christian version
                                    is less accurate. This is how Eckists
                                    rationalize and explain everything
                                    (the truth) away. ECK is a facsimile
                                    and everything else is a copy. But
                                    this shows that all religions are
                                    distorted and inaccurate copies.

                                    It really should be embarrassing,
                                    for Eckists, since this information
                                    is listed in their first Holy Book
                                    under Polarian race (check the
                                    index for the page number).

                                    Plus, let's face it. This Garden
                                    of Eden myth is a non-evolutionary
                                    belief. It was devised during
                                    a time of ignorance and pre-science
                                    in order to give a religious explanation
                                    for creation. And, it's been revised
                                    even by early Christianity because
                                    Lillith was supposed to have been
                                    Adam's first mate who was created
                                    equally with him.

                                    Later, the creation myth story was
                                    changed so that Eve was created
                                    from Adam's rib in order to make
                                    her subservient to him... as Eckists
                                    are to subservient to Klemp. Thus,
                                    no female LEMs and even Mahantas
                                    are permitted due to some hokey
                                    negative atom ekplanation.


                                    But, Eckists are in denial of the truth
                                    as they continue to pretend they
                                    are advanced Souls. The mind is
                                    very powerful and that's why Eckankar
                                    appears to work for Eckists. The
                                    mind will give one the dreams
                                    and "signs" that are programmed
                                    into it via suggestion and expectation.
                                    However, isn't this the modus
                                    operandi of all religions? If one
                                    just Googles "miracles" one can
                                    see examples of faith and belief
                                    that would put any Eckist to shame.

                                    Therefore, why do Eckists not
                                    see the truth? Is it that they
                                    have tied up their camels, to
                                    a fraudent belief, and now, trust
                                    in a make believe God/Mahanta...
                                    Klemp? It is the Easy Way!

                                    Prometheus




                                    etznab@... wrote:
                                    I think a lot of people can overlook this stuff, thinking that whatever
                                    Paul Twitchell said/wrote must be the truth. Some people just might not
                                    care. Well, it's reasonable to suspect this talent - for promotion,
                                    even when it means making things up, stretching the truth, or just
                                    plain spinning lies - was used to "create" the Eckankar mythos.

                                    myth

                                    1830, from Gk. mythos "speech, thought, story, myth," of unknown origin.

                                    Myths are "stories about divine beings, generally arranged in a
                                    coherent system; they are revered as true and sacred; they are endorsed
                                    by rulers and priests; and closely linked to religion. Once this link
                                    is broken, and the actors in the story are not regarded as gods but as
                                    human heroes, giants or fairies, it is no longer a myth but a folktale.
                                    Where the central actor is divine but the story is trivial ... the
                                    result is religious legend, not myth." [J. Simpson & S. Roud,
                                    "Dictionary of English Folklore," Oxford, 2000, p.254]

                                    General sense of "untrue story, rumor" is from 1840.

                                    http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=mythos&searchmode=\
                                    \
                                    none

                                    In other words, amid all the compilations and recycled material, etc.,
                                    context has been changed (in various places) when it comes to source. I
                                    wonder, could Paul Twitchell have created "Eckankar" and at the same
                                    time given the source for all of his material? I noticed Kirpal Singh
                                    and others were very good at citing references and sharing what
                                    quote/saying came from who. So if Paul Twitchell ever chose to use
                                    passages and paragraphs from books, Did he always feel obligated to
                                    provide that information?

                                    As a promoter, I suspect the person wants to give credit to whatever
                                    they're promoting and not give more credit to "other products" instead.
                                    It makes sense (to me) that Paul Twitchell would "paint the name
                                    Eckankar" over so much material he had read (in so many words). Not
                                    only this, but it even appears probable that Paul Twitchell took
                                    liberty to respell and redefine words according to fit them in a new,
                                    and growing, Eckankar philosophy. Not only words, but names too!

                                    How extensive the promotion and PR campaign that created contemporary
                                    Eckankar teaching? In so many ways, it seems this is the part that
                                    doesn't agree with people. Not unless they knew from the beginning that
                                    information was not necessarily accurate and in some places embellished.

                                    embellish

                                    mid-14c., "to render beautiful," from O.Fr. embelliss-, stem of
                                    embellir "make beautiful, ornament," from em- (see en- (1)) + bel
                                    "beautiful," from L. bellus (see bene-). Meaning "dress up (a
                                    narration) with fictitious matter" is from mid-15c. Related:
                                    Embellished; embellishing.

                                    http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=embellished&search\
                                    \
                                    mode=none

                                    Reading through early Eckankar books I think common sense might tell a
                                    person that parts of the material was embellished. At the same time I
                                    also think people could naturally so much want the material to be true
                                    that they allow imagination to "make it so" and overrule common sense.

                                    Ever observe what happens when you're part of a group where countless
                                    individuals believe in things - through imagination - that aren't
                                    necessarily true? I mean, when you're one of the unbelievers and part
                                    of the minority who question whether so many imagined things are true?


                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                                    <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Sat, Sep 17, 2011 2:14 am
                                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: "The Dark Side of ECKankar" -
                                    And More!

                                    Â
                                    Hello Etznab and All,
                                    This tells how Paul Twitchell
                                    was His Own Drum Beater:

                                    http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html

                                    What's interesting is that at age 27 (1935)
                                    Twitchell was saying that he had been
                                    to India (supposedly at age 15 to meet
                                    Rebazar for the first time, DOBTLEM).
                                    However, Klemp points out that Twitchell
                                    was doing another self-promotion, and
                                    was lying in order to get into Who's Who
                                    in Kentucky. Klemp states that Twitchell
                                    had never been all that far from home
                                    at age 27. Klemp seems to have stepped
                                    into a big pile of Twits mess. HK's
                                    statement contradicts what Twitchell
                                    revealed in Difficulties of Becoming the
                                    Living ECK Master circa July, 1971. This
                                    1971 date is, supposedly, long after Twitchell
                                    (the Mahanta) was was no longer "exaggerating"
                                    and "twisting facts." However, as Klemp
                                    has pointed out Twitchell was still lying
                                    and promoting his con up until his untimely
                                    and death in September, 1971.

                                    Prometheus

                                    etznab@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Almost didn't see this response because the e-mail bounced.
                                    >
                                    > Umm ... about the self-promotion, whatever, people can read about
                                    some of the history here.
                                    >
                                    > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html
                                    >
                                    > Check out 4th paragraph of article entitled: Paul's Seal of
                                    Approval.
                                    >
                                    > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                                    "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Hello Etznab and All,
                                    > > It is interesting that Twitchell
                                    > > has his Rebazar character (the
                                    > > "Master" who initiated him)
                                    > > indicate that there were 8 Planes
                                    > > just as Radhasomi and Ruhani
                                    > > Satsang have listed in "The Path
                                    > > of the Masters." Since Kirpal
                                    > > Singh, of Ruhani Satsang, was
                                    > > Paul's real life Master for ten years
                                    > > it's no wonder that this dogma was
                                    > > influential in the design of Eckankar.
                                    > >
                                    > > Of course, Twitchell was constantly
                                    > > tweaking, revising, and masking his
                                    > > religious con as time went by.
                                    > >
                                    > > The Anami Lok (10th Plane where
                                    > > "Sugmad" resides) didn't appear until
                                    > > later. Did Rebazar simply forget to
                                    > > mention this as well as the "Mahanta?"
                                    > > Did RT think that Paul needed to be
                                    > > spoon-fed and wasn't ready for this
                                    > > advanced "spiritual" info? No, not really.
                                    > > According to Twitchell he had been
                                    > > given the 12th and "final initiation"
                                    > > (to become LEM) back in 1951 by
                                    > > Rebazar while on his "2nd" visit to
                                    > > India. See, the timeline is off for this
                                    > > ekplanation to be taken seriously as
                                    > > well.
                                    > >
                                    > > Therefore, there is no rational excuse
                                    > > for these inconsistencies except to
                                    > > admit that the "rascal" Twitchell was,
                                    > > once again, "exaggerating" and "twisting
                                    > > facts" as even Klemp has described
                                    > > and said of him. Klemp, years ago,
                                    > > had to admit that Twitchell was a self-
                                    > > promoter and did or said whatever
                                    > > he needed to do ("By Any Means Necessary")
                                    > > in order to get Eckankar off the ground.
                                    > >
                                    > > This is why Klemp, at first, had a
                                    > > difficult job of explaining Twitchell's
                                    > > inconsistencies and needed to keep
                                    > > Eckists confused, busy, and off-balance.
                                    > > Now, Eckists are so brainwashed that
                                    > > Klemp can say whatever in his simple
                                    > > minded redundant versions of feel-good
                                    > > New Age spirituality.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Prometheus
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > etznab wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar
                                    Tarzs
                                    > > mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme.
                                    Check the
                                    > > index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with
                                    the Master.
                                    > >
                                    > > The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless
                                    region,
                                    > > [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called
                                    THE FACE OF
                                    > > GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying:
                                    [Quoting]
                                    > > "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the
                                    light of
                                    > > God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes
                                    could not look
                                    > > upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean
                                    of Love
                                    > > and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return
                                    in time."
                                    > > (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)
                                    > >
                                    > > Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in
                                    the House
                                    > > of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens.
                                    Ye cannot
                                    > > go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with
                                    my divine
                                    > > self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in
                                    the divine
                                    > > cause!"
                                    > >
                                    > > Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the
                                    Master, has
                                    > > Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting
                                    snippet]:
                                    > >
                                    > > "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in
                                    a
                                    > > mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
                                    > > attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
                                    > > "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
                                    after
                                    > > this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul
                                    reaches
                                    > > the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or
                                    the SUGMAD,
                                    > > the supreme LORD of all that exists."
                                    > >
                                    > > http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html
                                    > >
                                    > > Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the
                                    description
                                    > > slightly:
                                    > >
                                    > > "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the
                                    Sat Nam in
                                    > > a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in
                                    all Sat
                                    > > Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the
                                    three
                                    > > remaining known planes.
                                    > >
                                    > > "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha,
                                    and
                                    > > after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam
                                    Purusha, or
                                    > > lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region
                                    of the
                                    > > nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first
                                    you know
                                    > > about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the
                                    Divine.
                                    > >
                                    > > "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."
                                    > >
                                    > > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                    > >
                                    > > Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is
                                    illustrated (by
                                    > > Paul Twitchell) slightly different.
                                    > >
                                    > > "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam
                                    Lok.
                                    > > Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the
                                    end of its
                                    > > journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the
                                    supreme
                                    > > lord of all that exists."
                                    > >
                                    > > http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html
                                    > >
                                    > > The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok,
                                    Alak Lok,
                                    > > Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with
                                    Ocean of
                                    > > Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip
                                    mention of
                                    > > Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.
                                    > >
                                    > > In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master,
                                    Introduction to
                                    > > Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes
                                    similarly, and
                                    > > in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain
                                    sections from
                                    > > The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:
                                    > >
                                    > > "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit
                                    is
                                    > > expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal,
                                    Nirala,
                                    > > Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
                                    > > Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country
                                    > >
                                    > > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                    > >
                                    > > "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many
                                    words, such
                                    > > as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala,
                                    Anami, Agam,
                                    > > Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar,
                                    Parameshwar,
                                    > > Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters
                                    > >
                                    > > http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html
                                    > >
                                    > > Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent
                                    from the
                                    > > Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR
                                    vs.
                                    > > Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian
                                    Johnson's book,
                                    > > The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The
                                    Far
                                    > > Country, by at least three decades!
                                    > >
                                    > > Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word,
                                    trademarked
                                    > > it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is
                                    somehow more
                                    > > than a paraphrase.
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