Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: "The Dark Side of ECKankar"

Expand Messages
  • dianastanley43
    Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from personal
    Message 1 of 24 , Feb 13, 2011
      Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time. If it is hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew and was their experience I also say.
      Diana Stanley

      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Rosemarie Bucci <rblustar@...> wrote:
      >
      > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who are
      > searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
      > findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
      > thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar. I am not here to
      > defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues. We are all
      > affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we have allot to
      > bring to the table.
      >  
      > I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
      > called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
      > site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because I'd
      > raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
      > well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
      > complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
      > thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely objective.
      > For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
      > paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
      >  
      > I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
      > within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on the
      > facts. I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
      > the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
      > belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking. Do
      > you?
      >
      >
      >
      > ____________________________________________________________________________________
      > Looking for earth-friendly autos?
      > Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.
      > http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
      >
    • prometheus_973
      Hello Rosemarie, There will be no email debate or ekplanation of this article. I don t agree with it entirely, but there are real facts and evidence,
      Message 2 of 24 , Feb 13, 2011
        Hello Rosemarie,
        There will be no email debate or ekplanation
        of this article. I don't agree with it entirely,
        but there are real facts and evidence, elsewhere,
        that shows Eckankar is "dark and fear based."

        After all, Klemp was/is the real "Black Magician"
        versus Darwin Gross.

        Read Chapter 7 of "Soul Travelers of the Far
        Country," if you can find the book, and you
        will see Klemp's ego speaking and how that
        he repeatedly states that he worked in a Sound
        Proof Dark Room at the ESC. And, it was Klemp's
        idea for Darwin to meet with him, in private,
        in the Sound Proof Dark Room (in the photo
        department) where Klemp worked daily. Darwin
        "hesitated" [pg.409 Autobiography of a Modern
        Prophet] to meet there when Klemp suggested
        that they should talk in private in the Dark Room
        that was also Sound Proofed (by the last building
        owner). Thus, it was symbolic that the ECK (Light
        & Sound) was Not present during the discussion
        of Klemp's transition to become the 973rd LEM.
        It's absence, the ECK, was due to Klemp and Not
        to Darwin. Thus, Klemp was looking into the mirror
        when he, later, referred to Darwin as being the
        Black Magician. And, not being able to forgive
        Darwin for his imperfections, even after all of
        these years, is more proof that Klemp is holding
        onto Negativity and this is evidence that he is
        of the KAL and is a Liar, Trickster, Deceiver,
        and, thus, a Black Magician!

        Most of the "fear" inside Eckankar comes via
        the RESA structure. ECKists fear that they can
        be Black Listed on Initiations by giving their
        real opinions and impressions of Klemp's
        articles and of the strict Guidelines they are
        to follow without question. They can't criticize
        (even constructively) because this is seen as
        negativity and that is of the KAL. Except, they
        forget, the KAL is the ruler of the Lower Planes
        (assigned by Sugmad) and Eckankar is a 1st
        Physical Plane religion/organization and is
        based upon, written, Mental Plane books,
        talks, rules & laws, guidelines, discourses,
        etc.

        Plus, "questions" are also discouraged as well.
        ECKists are to take it to the "inner" if they have
        too many questions, but the Catch-22 is that
        their "inner (Soul) answers" have to comply with
        the Lower Plane outer limitations of the EK Dogma,
        the scrutiny of the RESA, and of the EK Guidelines.
        Basically, an ECKist (Soul) cannot have an "official"
        opinion or a "valid" spiritual experience (that can
        be shared in public), unless, Klemp gives his verbal
        or written approval. As I pointed out before, look
        at what happened to Graham. He had a dream where
        a Silent One showed up and Graham HUed to verify
        that this was a Silent One and not an Astral entity
        playing tricks upon him. The Silent One passed the
        HU test and told Graham his name and then allowed
        Graham to hold the Rod of ECK Power to see how it
        felt. However, Klemp had a problem with this "dream"
        and felt threatened by this new Third Initiate. LOL!
        Thus, Klemp demoted Graham to a 1st Initiate for
        sharing his "dream" with others! Graham wasn't trying
        to take over or to challenge Klemp... it was just
        a dream! It wasn't his fault for having such a dream
        was it? What if other ECKists had a similar dream?
        Now, they all know Not to share it, don't they, for fear
        of being demoted!


        Prometheus

        starshine wrote:

        I recently read "The Dark Side of ECKankar" from your web site. Needless to say
        I was shocked because I am currently an ECKist. I'm interested to know why the
        information presented was concluded as it was in representation of something so
        dark, and fear based. These are pretty serious allegations.

        I'd like for you to reach out to me via email because I'm interested in further
        investigation but only if that is acceptable to you. I'd like to stick to the
        facts and evidence.
      • Rosemarie Bucci
        Hi Diana, I ve had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this path. I have read David Lane s book and Ford Johnson s book as
        Message 3 of 24 , Feb 14, 2011
          Hi Diana,
          I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth is truth and will always be the truth.
           
          I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember, we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
           
          I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must be brave and remain in truth.
          Thank you for getting back to me.
          Rosemarie


          TV dinner still cooling?
          Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.
        • prometheus_973
          Hello Rosemarie, I am a seeker of Truth as well. And yes, this article on The Dark Side of Eckankar is inaccurate, but there is a dark side to Eckankar and
          Message 4 of 24 , Feb 15, 2011
            Hello Rosemarie,
            I am a seeker of Truth as well.
            And yes, this article on "The Dark
            Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
            there is a dark side to Eckankar and
            there is also fear.

            I find it interesting that you've
            read (and I assume have contemplated
            upon) David Lane's research as well as
            Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
            and have, still, remained an ECKist.

            What happened to your "critical thinking?"
            Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
            you agree with some of it but not all of
            it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
            I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
            isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
            what they believe than any other religion
            they've found. Is that the case with you?

            I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
            book, threw it away (because of the bad
            vibes), and then placed themselves upon
            pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
            and talk Eckists through their doubts and
            concerns.

            You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
            not all truth is the same. That's why there
            are so many churches. People are social
            animals and tend to seek out others with
            similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
            to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
            to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
            and a test for Soul.

            I also got the impression that you don't
            participate much within the RESA structure.
            Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
            Do you know that you have to watch what
            you say? You've observed and learned that
            correct? You do care about being promoted
            to that next initiation right?

            Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
            take on the subjects that we've been discussing
            here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
            lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
            for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
            Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
            when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
            "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
            detectors just for his talk?

            You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues. 
            We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
            at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."

            BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
            read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?

            Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
            the table.

            Prometheus

            rosemarie wrote:
            Hi Diana,

            I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth is truth and will always be the truth.

            I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember, we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.

            I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must be brave and remain in truth.

            Thank you for getting back to me.
            Rosemarie


            dianastanley wrote:

            Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time. If it is hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew and was their experience I also say.

            Diana Stanley

            Rosemarie Bucci wrote:

            I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who are
            searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
            findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
            thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.

            I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues. 
            We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
            have allot to bring to the table.
             
            I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
            called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
            site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because I'd
            raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
            well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
            complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
            thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely objective.
            For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
            paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
             
            I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
            within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on the
            facts.

            I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
            the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
            belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking.
            Do you?
          • dianastanley43
            Rosemarie you are quite right. I started with Eckankar and ended up studing quantum Physics What I finally came to the conclusion of was if you were sitting in
            Message 5 of 24 , Feb 17, 2011
              Rosemarie you are quite right. I started with Eckankar and ended up studing quantum Physics What I finally came to the conclusion of was if you were sitting in you living room you didn't need a spiritual path to find your living room. It has not been an easy journy as I was loath to give up the idea of the mystical and magical and I traveled many paths in the 30 yrs after leaving Eckankar. One day I read a quote that changed my belief system of years. "God did'nt create the universe God became the universe. It's interesting that when the time is right I might understand something that a few yrs earlier would not have ment anything.
              Diana

              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Rosemarie Bucci <rblustar@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Diana,
              > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this
              > path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been
              > to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that
              > honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth
              > is truth and will always be the truth.
              >
              >  
              > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we
              > follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching
              > which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember,
              > we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to
              > bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
              >
              >  
              > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts
              > sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must
              > be brave and remain in truth.
              > Thank you for gettingback to me.
              > Rosemarie
              >
              >
              >
              > ____________________________________________________________________________________
              > It's here! Your new message!
              > Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar.
              > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/
              >
            • Avonblue
              Diana and All, I came to eckankar back in the 70 s because I felt religion was an abomination and the lure of free exploration of our spiritual self was truly
              Message 6 of 24 , Feb 18, 2011
                Diana and All,

                I came to eckankar back in the 70's because I felt religion was an abomination and the lure of free exploration of our spiritual self was truly revolutionary. Eckankar eventually failed to be the magical mystical carpet ride it was purported to be but instead a rehash and reinvention of eastern and western mumbo jumbo recreated by a charlatan. I too have explored quantum physics and especially the advances in neuroscience over the past several years and have come to the belief that "spirituality" and for the that matter "god" is nothing more than misunderstood and undiscovered as of yet science.

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "dianastanley43" <dianastanley43@...> wrote:
                >
                > Rosemarie you are quite right. I started with Eckankar and ended up studing quantum Physics What I finally came to the conclusion of was if you were sitting in you living room you didn't need a spiritual path to find your living room. It has not been an easy journy as I was loath to give up the idea of the mystical and magical and I traveled many paths in the 30 yrs after leaving Eckankar. One day I read a quote that changed my belief system of years. "God did'nt create the universe God became the universe. It's interesting that when the time is right I might understand something that a few yrs earlier would not have ment anything.
                > Diana
                >
                > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Rosemarie Bucci <rblustar@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Hi Diana,
                > > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this
                > > path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been
                > > to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that
                > > honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth
                > > is truth and will always be the truth.
                > >
                > >  
                > > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we
                > > follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching
                > > which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember,
                > > we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to
                > > bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
                > >
                > >  
                > > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts
                > > sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must
                > > be brave and remain in truth.
                > > Thank you for gettingback to me.
                > > Rosemarie
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ____________________________________________________________________________________
                > > It's here! Your new message!
                > > Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar.
                > > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/
                > >
                >
              • prometheus_973
                Hello Avonblue and All, I was first introduced to the quantum physics/mechanics/ field theory scam via Maharishi of TM fame. Adam Dreamhealer and many other
                Message 7 of 24 , Feb 21, 2011
                  Hello Avonblue and All,
                  I was first introduced to the
                  "quantum physics/mechanics/
                  field theory" scam via Maharishi
                  of TM fame. Adam Dreamhealer
                  and many other scammers have
                  used and abused this theory
                  to explain how their brand of
                  whatever works. I'm surprised
                  that Klemp hasn't used this hook
                  in order to combine science and
                  spirituality.

                  It is quite interesting how Klemp
                  gradually became "the" God/Mahanta.

                  And, even though he has stated,
                  "don't worship me" he has Eckists
                  stare at his picture and chant HU.

                  Plus, he has them dream of him
                  and beseech him with requests,
                  questions, help, protection, and
                  for healing. So, HK instructs Eckists
                  to pray to him (the Mahanta), but
                  says he's not to be worshipped.
                  How's that work? Of course he's
                  worshipped!

                  And, who or what is "worshipped" by
                  Eckists at ECK Worship Services (EWS)?
                  Is it the ECK? Klemp claims to be that
                  too, or is it the Mahanta or both?
                  So, on the "outer" Klemp is the leader
                  (LEM) of Eckankar and on the "inner"
                  he claims to be the ECK and the Mahanta.
                  But wouldn't he, also, be the ECK and
                  the Mahanta on the "outer" as well?
                  This is where/how Klemp tricks ECKists
                  into worshipping him. He's everything
                  and claims to be levels higher than the
                  God that other religions worship. Yet,
                  just like Twitchell fooled people, Klemp
                  does the same. Telling ECKists not to
                  worship him is a disclaimer so that he
                  can avoid responsibility.

                  It's really laughable that older ECKists
                  turned their backs on the religion of
                  their parents because "God" never answered
                  their prayers, etc. Now, they've substituted
                  Klemp for Jesus or Moses or who and what
                  ever. How stupid is that!

                  Strange that Sugmad isn't worshipped
                  at these EWS events and neither is God.
                  God is discussed some, but a real Eckist
                  knows that "God" is code for the Mahanta,
                  or the KAL, it depends. So, who/what is
                  worshipped? The ECK? That's Klemp too!
                  Klemp, in one way or the other is always
                  the main focus! Really, who does the Mahanta
                  look like? And, yet, do Eckists really think
                  about what they are really doing when they
                  worship, pray HU, contemplate upon, dream,
                  and beseech "the" Mahanta/ECK (Klemp)
                  for help? Apparently not!

                  Prometheus


                  Avonblue wrote:
                  Diana and All,

                  I came to eckankar back in the 70's because I felt religion was an abomination
                  and the lure of free exploration of our spiritual self was truly revolutionary.
                  Eckankar eventually failed to be the magical mystical carpet ride it was
                  purported to be but instead a rehash and reinvention of eastern and western
                  mumbo jumbo recreated by a charlatan. I too have explored quantum physics and
                  especially the advances in neuroscience over the past several years and have
                  come to the belief that "spirituality" and for the that matter "god" is nothing
                  more than misunderstood and undiscovered as of yet science.

                  dianastanley43"
                  dianastanley43@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Rosemarie you are quite right. I started with Eckankar and ended up studing
                  quantum Physics What I finally came to the conclusion of was if you were sitting
                  in you living room you didn't need a spiritual path to find your living room. It
                  has not been an easy journy as I was loath to give up the idea of the mystical
                  and magical and I traveled many paths in the 30 yrs after leaving Eckankar. One
                  day I read a quote that changed my belief system of years. "God did'nt create
                  the universe God became the universe. It's interesting that when the time is
                  right I might understand something that a few yrs earlier would not have ment
                  anything.
                  > Diana
                  >
                  Rosemarie Bucci <rblustar wrote:

                  Hi Diana,
                  I've had lots of experiences before
                  my journey into eckankar and while on
                  this path. I have read David Lane's book
                  and Ford Johnson's book as well.

                  I've been to eck satsangs, eck book
                  discussions and eck seminars also.
                  I agree that honesty is essential the
                  name of GOD on all levels.

                  I also understand that truth is truth
                  and will always be the truth.

                  I think it's important to remain open
                  and honest regardless of what path we
                  follow and to be there for one another
                  as much as we can. We are all searching
                  which is wonderful.

                  Therefore, we are not wrong in doing
                  so and let's remember, we all have each
                  other to try to put all this in perspective.
                  We have so much to bring to one another
                  on our many different levels of knowledge
                  and experience.

                  I know we'll get through this some day
                  and be stronger for it even if it hurts
                  sometimes. If we are to stand before
                  GOD and try to journey back to GOD,
                  we must be brave and remain in truth.



                  Prometheus: But there is no Truth
                  in Eckankar nor in any religion. It's
                  desperation, fear, lies, myth (stories),
                  imagination, pretend, and delusion!



                  Thank you for getting back to me.
                  Rosemarie
                • dianastanley43
                  ... Diana
                  Message 8 of 24 , Feb 21, 2011
                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                    > Paul commissioned me to do a sculpture of him so the Eckist would have something to focus on,I quess it was supposed to compete with jesus on the cross, any way he died befor it was finished and the stature fell apart befor I could make a mold of it. I thought Paul destroyed when he died as a lot of hi's at the time felt that. Acually it was bad craftsmanship on my part. I have to say it was pretty neat, he was sitting on a stool looking holy.
                    Diana
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Hello Avonblue and All,
                    > I was first introduced to the
                    > "quantum physics/mechanics/
                    > field theory" scam via Maharishi
                    > of TM fame. Adam Dreamhealer
                    > and many other scammers have
                    > used and abused this theory
                    > to explain how their brand of
                    > whatever works. I'm surprised
                    > that Klemp hasn't used this hook
                    > in order to combine science and
                    > spirituality.
                    >
                    > It is quite interesting how Klemp
                    > gradually became "the" God/Mahanta.
                    >
                    > And, even though he has stated,
                    > "don't worship me" he has Eckists
                    > stare at his picture and chant HU.
                    >
                    > Plus, he has them dream of him
                    > and beseech him with requests,
                    > questions, help, protection, and
                    > for healing. So, HK instructs Eckists
                    > to pray to him (the Mahanta), but
                    > says he's not to be worshipped.
                    > How's that work? Of course he's
                    > worshipped!
                    >
                    > And, who or what is "worshipped" by
                    > Eckists at ECK Worship Services (EWS)?
                    > Is it the ECK? Klemp claims to be that
                    > too, or is it the Mahanta or both?
                    > So, on the "outer" Klemp is the leader
                    > (LEM) of Eckankar and on the "inner"
                    > he claims to be the ECK and the Mahanta.
                    > But wouldn't he, also, be the ECK and
                    > the Mahanta on the "outer" as well?
                    > This is where/how Klemp tricks ECKists
                    > into worshipping him. He's everything
                    > and claims to be levels higher than the
                    > God that other religions worship. Yet,
                    > just like Twitchell fooled people, Klemp
                    > does the same. Telling ECKists not to
                    > worship him is a disclaimer so that he
                    > can avoid responsibility.
                    >
                    > It's really laughable that older ECKists
                    > turned their backs on the religion of
                    > their parents because "God" never answered
                    > their prayers, etc. Now, they've substituted
                    > Klemp for Jesus or Moses or who and what
                    > ever. How stupid is that!
                    >
                    > Strange that Sugmad isn't worshipped
                    > at these EWS events and neither is God.
                    > God is discussed some, but a real Eckist
                    > knows that "God" is code for the Mahanta,
                    > or the KAL, it depends. So, who/what is
                    > worshipped? The ECK? That's Klemp too!
                    > Klemp, in one way or the other is always
                    > the main focus! Really, who does the Mahanta
                    > look like? And, yet, do Eckists really think
                    > about what they are really doing when they
                    > worship, pray HU, contemplate upon, dream,
                    > and beseech "the" Mahanta/ECK (Klemp)
                    > for help? Apparently not!
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    >
                    >
                    > Avonblue wrote:
                    > Diana and All,
                    >
                    > I came to eckankar back in the 70's because I felt religion was an abomination
                    > and the lure of free exploration of our spiritual self was truly revolutionary.
                    > Eckankar eventually failed to be the magical mystical carpet ride it was
                    > purported to be but instead a rehash and reinvention of eastern and western
                    > mumbo jumbo recreated by a charlatan. I too have explored quantum physics and
                    > especially the advances in neuroscience over the past several years and have
                    > come to the belief that "spirituality" and for the that matter "god" is nothing
                    > more than misunderstood and undiscovered as of yet science.
                    >
                    > dianastanley43"
                    > dianastanley43@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Rosemarie you are quite right. I started with Eckankar and ended up studing
                    > quantum Physics What I finally came to the conclusion of was if you were sitting
                    > in you living room you didn't need a spiritual path to find your living room. It
                    > has not been an easy journy as I was loath to give up the idea of the mystical
                    > and magical and I traveled many paths in the 30 yrs after leaving Eckankar. One
                    > day I read a quote that changed my belief system of years. "God did'nt create
                    > the universe God became the universe. It's interesting that when the time is
                    > right I might understand something that a few yrs earlier would not have ment
                    > anything.
                    > > Diana
                    > >
                    > Rosemarie Bucci <rblustar wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi Diana,
                    > I've had lots of experiences before
                    > my journey into eckankar and while on
                    > this path. I have read David Lane's book
                    > and Ford Johnson's book as well.
                    >
                    > I've been to eck satsangs, eck book
                    > discussions and eck seminars also.
                    > I agree that honesty is essential the
                    > name of GOD on all levels.
                    >
                    > I also understand that truth is truth
                    > and will always be the truth.
                    >
                    > I think it's important to remain open
                    > and honest regardless of what path we
                    > follow and to be there for one another
                    > as much as we can. We are all searching
                    > which is wonderful.
                    >
                    > Therefore, we are not wrong in doing
                    > so and let's remember, we all have each
                    > other to try to put all this in perspective.
                    > We have so much to bring to one another
                    > on our many different levels of knowledge
                    > and experience.
                    >
                    > I know we'll get through this some day
                    > and be stronger for it even if it hurts
                    > sometimes. If we are to stand before
                    > GOD and try to journey back to GOD,
                    > we must be brave and remain in truth.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Prometheus: But there is no Truth
                    > in Eckankar nor in any religion. It's
                    > desperation, fear, lies, myth (stories),
                    > imagination, pretend, and delusion!
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Thank you for getting back to me.
                    > Rosemarie
                    >
                  • starshine917
                    Hello prometheus_973: Remember me? Wow, it s so weird that I d be writing to you now….exactly, one year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I
                    Message 9 of 24 , Sep 4, 2011
                      Hello prometheus_973:
                      Remember me? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writing to you now….exactly, one year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I didn't plan it like this but somehow it just worked out this way.

                      I recently left Eckankar. And, you were right….I read David Lane's paper as well as Ford Johnson's "Confessions of a God Seeker" And, for some reason at that time I remained in the group tying to focus on the so-called positive side of the Eckankar, the hypnotic rederick that goes nowhere while ignoring the facts. I then started to take a good look at Harold…looked into his "dark" eyes and listened to his figure of monotone speak and I realized it was very hypnotic, and at the same time very inviting. I wondered who or what was inside of those dark eyes….And they seem to always come as "the light". Yes, the "angel of light".

                      I was in a satsang at that time and I found it disturbing more and more that his same picture of himself, which by the way never changes, the one and only picture that has to be present at all Eckankar meetings was never questioned by it's members. All the books we studied were written by him and only him !!! And how some members were "higher" than others depending on their "initiation" number, even if these people knew absolutely nothing except what was written in the books of Eckankar. Some of these people seemed to have anger issues too which didn't seem to fit the spiritual portrait of a saint they painted. I started to feel uncomfortable around these people cause they seemed more and more to me like mind-controlled slaves. And, they too could see that I was thinking and starting to pull away because I no longer looked to them without question, with blind authority.

                      So, it wasn't a good mix to say the very least. I finally had it out with one of the members and I realized that I already left…In my heart, I choose to follow truth and I also realized that that in Eckankar, I was being deceived. And I realized that I couldn't have it both ways. I had to pick my convictions and go with them. After all, why would I go against my own self, and what was in my heart ?

                      In Eckankar it is taught to open and follow your heart but yet, if you dare open your mind and begin to ask challenging questions, you're in trouble because these people think the Mahanta in Eckankar is above all else and should never be questioned, and your heart should be open to "him", the self appointed master, Harold Klemp. Even if the members of Eckankar are not honest with themselves enough to admit it consciously. On a subconscious level, they know better !!!

                      The shame of it all is that this deception is done in the name of an unconditional open heart to give love, which it is true, a part of GOD's flow but where's the truth ? What happened to that part of GOD ??? I guess it got lost in the sea of love…


                      Hello prometheus_973;
                      Remember me ? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writ

                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hello Rosemarie,
                      > I am a seeker of Truth as well.
                      > And yes, this article on "The Dark
                      > Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
                      > there is a dark side to Eckankar and
                      > there is also fear.
                      >
                      > I find it interesting that you've
                      > read (and I assume have contemplated
                      > upon) David Lane's research as well as
                      > Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
                      > and have, still, remained an ECKist.
                      >
                      > What happened to your "critical thinking?"
                      > Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
                      > you agree with some of it but not all of
                      > it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
                      > I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
                      > isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
                      > what they believe than any other religion
                      > they've found. Is that the case with you?
                      >
                      > I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
                      > book, threw it away (because of the bad
                      > vibes), and then placed themselves upon
                      > pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
                      > and talk Eckists through their doubts and
                      > concerns.
                      >
                      > You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
                      > not all truth is the same. That's why there
                      > are so many churches. People are social
                      > animals and tend to seek out others with
                      > similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
                      > to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
                      > to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
                      > and a test for Soul.
                      >
                      > I also got the impression that you don't
                      > participate much within the RESA structure.
                      > Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
                      > Do you know that you have to watch what
                      > you say? You've observed and learned that
                      > correct? You do care about being promoted
                      > to that next initiation right?
                      >
                      > Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
                      > take on the subjects that we've been discussing
                      > here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
                      > lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
                      > for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
                      > Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
                      > when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
                      > "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
                      > detectors just for his talk?
                      >
                      > You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues. 
                      > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
                      > at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."
                      >
                      > BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
                      > read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?
                      >
                      > Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
                      > the table.
                      >
                      > Prometheus
                      >
                      > rosemarie wrote:
                      > Hi Diana,
                      >
                      > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth is truth and will always be the truth.
                      >
                      > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember, we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
                      >
                      > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must be brave and remain in truth.
                      >
                      > Thank you for getting back to me.
                      > Rosemarie
                      >
                      >
                      > dianastanley wrote:
                      >
                      > Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time. If it is hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew and was their experience I also say.
                      >
                      > Diana Stanley
                      >
                      > Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
                      >
                      > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who are
                      > searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
                      > findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
                      > thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.
                      >
                      > I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues. 
                      > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
                      > have allot to bring to the table.
                      >  
                      > I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
                      > called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
                      > site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because I'd
                      > raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
                      > well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
                      > complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
                      > thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely objective.
                      > For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
                      > paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
                      >  
                      > I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
                      > within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on the
                      > facts.
                      >
                      > I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
                      > the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
                      > belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking.
                      > Do you?
                      >
                    • prometheus_973
                      Hello All, Just thought I d share some additional comments to what Starshine wrote. starshine917 wrote: Hello prometheus_973: Remember me? Wow, it s so weird
                      Message 10 of 24 , Sep 11, 2011
                        Hello All,
                        Just thought I'd share some
                        additional comments to what
                        Starshine wrote.

                        starshine917 wrote:
                        Hello prometheus_973:
                        Remember me? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writing to you now….exactly, one
                        year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I didn't plan it like
                        this but somehow it just worked out this way.


                        ME: Yes, it takes awhile for the
                        realization to occur and sink in
                        even after one decides to look
                        for and analyze it via critical
                        thinking while giving HK's/PT's
                        redundant words a litmus test
                        for truthiness.


                        I recently left Eckankar. And, you were right….I read David Lane's paper as well
                        as Ford Johnson's "Confessions of a God Seeker" And, for some reason at that
                        time I remained in the group tying to focus on the so-called positive side of
                        the Eckankar, the hypnotic rederick that goes nowhere while ignoring the facts.
                        I then started to take a good look at Harold…looked into his "dark" eyes and
                        listened to his figure of monotone speak and I realized it was very hypnotic,
                        and at the same time very inviting. I wondered who or what was inside of those
                        dark eyes….And they seem to always come as "the light". Yes, the "angel of
                        light".


                        ME: Klemp is no angel of light! He spreads
                        darkness and delusion while denying Eckists
                        their true nature as Soul. He gives (hope),
                        promises (higher plane initiations), and then
                        takes it all away (hope of ever getting beyond
                        the 7th initiation while in this lifetime, unless,
                        one pretends or imagines they are higher
                        via vanity and frustration).


                        I was in a satsang at that time and I found it disturbing more and more that his
                        same picture of himself, which by the way never changes, the one and only
                        picture that has to be present at all Eckankar meetings was never questioned by
                        it's members. All the books we studied were written by him and only him !!! And
                        how some members were "higher" than others depending on their "initiation"
                        number, even if these people knew absolutely nothing except what was written in
                        the books of Eckankar. Some of these people seemed to have anger issues too
                        which didn't seem to fit the spiritual portrait of a saint they painted. I
                        started to feel uncomfortable around these people cause they seemed more and
                        more to me like mind-controlled slaves. And, they too could see that I was
                        thinking and starting to pull away because I no longer looked to them without
                        question, with blind authority.


                        ME: Yes, that more youthful looking
                        Official Picture of Klemp's is a vain act,
                        but is never questioned because to do
                        so would get one Black Listed on initiations.
                        Those longtime Eckists who are part
                        of the RESA Hierarchy know what I'm
                        saying. Some H.I.s are fearful/cautious
                        of the spies that report to the RESA and
                        only share certain things (anti-Guideline
                        comments, etc.) around those H.I.s they
                        can trust.


                        BTW- There are some books, that Klemp
                        has approved of, written by non-Eck
                        authors that Eckists can read. However,
                        the Eckist must always focus upon the
                        ECK or Mahanta when reading these
                        books and, thus, give up free, unfettered,
                        thought. Some of these books are
                        recommended to those in leadership
                        positions and are business oriented.



                        So, it wasn't a good mix to say the very least. I finally had it out with one of
                        the members and I realized that I already left…In my heart, I choose to follow
                        truth and I also realized that that in Eckankar, I was being deceived. And I
                        realized that I couldn't have it both ways. I had to pick my convictions and go
                        with them. After all, why would I go against my own self, and what was in my
                        heart?


                        ME: It's the easy way to place an
                        authority figure on a shelf higher
                        than yourself. Less thinking and
                        effort is involved when blind trust
                        takes over. It's lazy but that's what
                        people do. Look at how we allow
                        the politicians to say and do as
                        they please without taking responsibility.
                        With Klemp, it's always the chela's
                        fault and never his own! He slowed-
                        down initiations in 1985, but doesn't
                        need to explain why these haven't
                        sped up because he answers to
                        nobody else, except, Sugmad right?


                        In Eckankar it is taught to open and follow your heart but yet, if you dare open
                        your mind and begin to ask challenging questions, you're in trouble because
                        these people think the Mahanta in Eckankar is above all else and should never be
                        questioned, and your heart should be open to "him", the self appointed master,
                        Harold Klemp. Even if the members of Eckankar are not honest with themselves
                        enough to admit it consciously. On a subconscious level, they know better !!!

                        ME: That following your heart
                        thing is more about the Astral
                        Heart Chakra... which is lower
                        than the Third Eye or Tisra Til!
                        Why didn't Klemp at least use
                        the (Astral) Crown Chakra when
                        having Eckists HU? After 30 years
                        and HK still has Eckists HUing
                        and focusing upon the 6th,
                        Third Eye, Astral Chakra versus
                        the 7th Crown Chakra!


                        The shame of it all is that this deception is done in the name of an
                        unconditional open heart to give love, which it is true, a part of GOD's flow
                        but where's the truth ? What happened to that part of GOD ??? I guess it got
                        lost in the sea of love…


                        ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                        "common language" but it's not
                        quite true. ECK is not a common
                        word and neither is Mahanta.
                        And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                        to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                        others worship or think he is speaking
                        about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                        use the word GOD when it's not
                        who or what they are referring
                        to. It's like comparing apples
                        to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                        start out, and are trained, to be
                        deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                        fact alone makes Eckankar look
                        very cult like. But, why the lie?
                        The "common language" excuse
                        doesn't hold water but Eckists
                        can't question this underhanded
                        practice or else they can have
                        their position taken away and
                        be Black Listed and shunned.

                        Prometheus



                        Hello prometheus_973;
                        Remember me ? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writ


                        <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hello Rosemarie,
                        > I am a seeker of Truth as well.
                        > And yes, this article on "The Dark
                        > Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
                        > there is a dark side to Eckankar and
                        > there is also fear.
                        >
                        > I find it interesting that you've
                        > read (and I assume have contemplated
                        > upon) David Lane's research as well as
                        > Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
                        > and have, still, remained an ECKist.
                        >
                        > What happened to your "critical thinking?"
                        > Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
                        > you agree with some of it but not all of
                        > it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
                        > I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
                        > isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
                        > what they believe than any other religion
                        > they've found. Is that the case with you?
                        >
                        > I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
                        > book, threw it away (because of the bad
                        > vibes), and then placed themselves upon
                        > pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
                        > and talk Eckists through their doubts and
                        > concerns.
                        >
                        > You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
                        > not all truth is the same. That's why there
                        > are so many churches. People are social
                        > animals and tend to seek out others with
                        > similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
                        > to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
                        > to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
                        > and a test for Soul.
                        >
                        > I also got the impression that you don't
                        > participate much within the RESA structure.
                        > Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
                        > Do you know that you have to watch what
                        > you say? You've observed and learned that
                        > correct? You do care about being promoted
                        > to that next initiation right?
                        >
                        > Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
                        > take on the subjects that we've been discussing
                        > here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
                        > lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
                        > for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
                        > Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
                        > when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
                        > "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
                        > detectors just for his talk?
                        >
                        > You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                        > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
                        > at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."
                        >
                        > BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
                        > read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?
                        >
                        > Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
                        > the table.
                        >
                        > Prometheus
                        >
                        > rosemarie wrote:
                        > Hi Diana,
                        >
                        > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this
                        path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been
                        to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that
                        honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth
                        is truth and will always be the truth.
                        >
                        > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we
                        follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching
                        which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember,
                        we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to
                        bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
                        >
                        > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts
                        sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must
                        be brave and remain in truth.
                        >
                        > Thank you for getting back to me.
                        > Rosemarie
                        >
                        >
                        > dianastanley wrote:
                        >
                        > Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any
                        direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from
                        personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time. If it is
                        hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew and was their
                        experience I also say.
                        >
                        > Diana Stanley
                        >
                        > Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
                        >
                        > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who
                        are searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
                        findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
                        thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.
                        >
                        I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                        We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
                        have allot to bring to the table.
                        >
                        I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
                        called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
                        site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because
                        I'd raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
                        well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
                        complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
                        thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely
                        objective.

                        For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
                        paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
                        >
                        I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
                        within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on
                        the facts.
                        >
                        I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
                        the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
                        belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking.
                        Do you?
                      • postekcon
                        Re ... ME: Klemp likes to say he uses common language but it s not quite true. ECK is not a common word and neither is Mahanta. And, the God (Sugmad) he
                        Message 11 of 24 , Sep 11, 2011
                          Re
                          >>>
                          ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                          "common language" but it's not
                          quite true. ECK is not a common
                          word and neither is Mahanta.
                          And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                          to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                          others worship or think he is speaking
                          about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                          use the word GOD when it's not
                          who or what they are referring
                          to. It's like comparing apples
                          to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                          start out, and are trained, to be
                          deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                          fact alone makes Eckankar look
                          very cult like. But, why the lie?
                          The "common language" excuse
                          doesn't hold water but Eckists
                          can't question this underhanded
                          practice or else they can have
                          their position taken away and
                          be Black Listed and shunned.
                          >>>


                          For the past ten years, I have observed this pattern.

                          Hard working HIs (50-70yrs plus) busy putting on Intro Talks, occasionally enrolling a new recruit to ekult.

                          However, within a year or two, the new recruit leaves ekult as nothing makes sense! Of course, the HIs, unable to look at either themselves or ekult, always blame the new recruit with comments such as lack of unfoldment etc!

                          For the new recruit, the reason nothing makes sense, I've observed, is thus. The HIs bring the new recruit into Paul Twitchell/Darwin Gross ekult; the ekult into which they themselved were enrolled. Now this version of ekult promised it had the tools for self/god realization in this lifetime etc. However, several MW (Mystic World) issues later, the new recruit comes to understand these 'good people' lied to them!
                          -Postekcon


                          In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hello All,
                          > Just thought I'd share some
                          > additional comments to what
                          > Starshine wrote.
                          >
                          > starshine917 wrote:
                          > Hello prometheus_973:
                          > Remember me? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writing to you now….exactly, one
                          > year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I didn't plan it like
                          > this but somehow it just worked out this way.
                          >
                          >
                          > ME: Yes, it takes awhile for the
                          > realization to occur and sink in
                          > even after one decides to look
                          > for and analyze it via critical
                          > thinking while giving HK's/PT's
                          > redundant words a litmus test
                          > for truthiness.
                          >
                          >
                          > I recently left Eckankar. And, you were right….I read David Lane's paper as well
                          > as Ford Johnson's "Confessions of a God Seeker" And, for some reason at that
                          > time I remained in the group tying to focus on the so-called positive side of
                          > the Eckankar, the hypnotic rederick that goes nowhere while ignoring the facts.
                          > I then started to take a good look at Harold…looked into his "dark" eyes and
                          > listened to his figure of monotone speak and I realized it was very hypnotic,
                          > and at the same time very inviting. I wondered who or what was inside of those
                          > dark eyes….And they seem to always come as "the light". Yes, the "angel of
                          > light".
                          >
                          >
                          > ME: Klemp is no angel of light! He spreads
                          > darkness and delusion while denying Eckists
                          > their true nature as Soul. He gives (hope),
                          > promises (higher plane initiations), and then
                          > takes it all away (hope of ever getting beyond
                          > the 7th initiation while in this lifetime, unless,
                          > one pretends or imagines they are higher
                          > via vanity and frustration).
                          >
                          >
                          > I was in a satsang at that time and I found it disturbing more and more that his
                          > same picture of himself, which by the way never changes, the one and only
                          > picture that has to be present at all Eckankar meetings was never questioned by
                          > it's members. All the books we studied were written by him and only him !!! And
                          > how some members were "higher" than others depending on their "initiation"
                          > number, even if these people knew absolutely nothing except what was written in
                          > the books of Eckankar. Some of these people seemed to have anger issues too
                          > which didn't seem to fit the spiritual portrait of a saint they painted. I
                          > started to feel uncomfortable around these people cause they seemed more and
                          > more to me like mind-controlled slaves. And, they too could see that I was
                          > thinking and starting to pull away because I no longer looked to them without
                          > question, with blind authority.
                          >
                          >
                          > ME: Yes, that more youthful looking
                          > Official Picture of Klemp's is a vain act,
                          > but is never questioned because to do
                          > so would get one Black Listed on initiations.
                          > Those longtime Eckists who are part
                          > of the RESA Hierarchy know what I'm
                          > saying. Some H.I.s are fearful/cautious
                          > of the spies that report to the RESA and
                          > only share certain things (anti-Guideline
                          > comments, etc.) around those H.I.s they
                          > can trust.
                          >
                          >
                          > BTW- There are some books, that Klemp
                          > has approved of, written by non-Eck
                          > authors that Eckists can read. However,
                          > the Eckist must always focus upon the
                          > ECK or Mahanta when reading these
                          > books and, thus, give up free, unfettered,
                          > thought. Some of these books are
                          > recommended to those in leadership
                          > positions and are business oriented.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > So, it wasn't a good mix to say the very least. I finally had it out with one of
                          > the members and I realized that I already left…In my heart, I choose to follow
                          > truth and I also realized that that in Eckankar, I was being deceived. And I
                          > realized that I couldn't have it both ways. I had to pick my convictions and go
                          > with them. After all, why would I go against my own self, and what was in my
                          > heart?
                          >
                          >
                          > ME: It's the easy way to place an
                          > authority figure on a shelf higher
                          > than yourself. Less thinking and
                          > effort is involved when blind trust
                          > takes over. It's lazy but that's what
                          > people do. Look at how we allow
                          > the politicians to say and do as
                          > they please without taking responsibility.
                          > With Klemp, it's always the chela's
                          > fault and never his own! He slowed-
                          > down initiations in 1985, but doesn't
                          > need to explain why these haven't
                          > sped up because he answers to
                          > nobody else, except, Sugmad right?
                          >
                          >
                          > In Eckankar it is taught to open and follow your heart but yet, if you dare open
                          > your mind and begin to ask challenging questions, you're in trouble because
                          > these people think the Mahanta in Eckankar is above all else and should never be
                          > questioned, and your heart should be open to "him", the self appointed master,
                          > Harold Klemp. Even if the members of Eckankar are not honest with themselves
                          > enough to admit it consciously. On a subconscious level, they know better !!!
                          >
                          > ME: That following your heart
                          > thing is more about the Astral
                          > Heart Chakra... which is lower
                          > than the Third Eye or Tisra Til!
                          > Why didn't Klemp at least use
                          > the (Astral) Crown Chakra when
                          > having Eckists HU? After 30 years
                          > and HK still has Eckists HUing
                          > and focusing upon the 6th,
                          > Third Eye, Astral Chakra versus
                          > the 7th Crown Chakra!
                          >
                          >
                          > The shame of it all is that this deception is done in the name of an
                          > unconditional open heart to give love, which it is true, a part of GOD's flow
                          > but where's the truth ? What happened to that part of GOD ??? I guess it got
                          > lost in the sea of love…
                          >
                          >
                          > ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                          > "common language" but it's not
                          > quite true. ECK is not a common
                          > word and neither is Mahanta.
                          > And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                          > to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                          > others worship or think he is speaking
                          > about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                          > use the word GOD when it's not
                          > who or what they are referring
                          > to. It's like comparing apples
                          > to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                          > start out, and are trained, to be
                          > deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                          > fact alone makes Eckankar look
                          > very cult like. But, why the lie?
                          > The "common language" excuse
                          > doesn't hold water but Eckists
                          > can't question this underhanded
                          > practice or else they can have
                          > their position taken away and
                          > be Black Listed and shunned.
                          >
                          > Prometheus
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Hello prometheus_973;
                          > Remember me ? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writ
                          >
                          >
                          > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Hello Rosemarie,
                          > > I am a seeker of Truth as well.
                          > > And yes, this article on "The Dark
                          > > Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
                          > > there is a dark side to Eckankar and
                          > > there is also fear.
                          > >
                          > > I find it interesting that you've
                          > > read (and I assume have contemplated
                          > > upon) David Lane's research as well as
                          > > Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
                          > > and have, still, remained an ECKist.
                          > >
                          > > What happened to your "critical thinking?"
                          > > Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
                          > > you agree with some of it but not all of
                          > > it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
                          > > I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
                          > > isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
                          > > what they believe than any other religion
                          > > they've found. Is that the case with you?
                          > >
                          > > I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
                          > > book, threw it away (because of the bad
                          > > vibes), and then placed themselves upon
                          > > pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
                          > > and talk Eckists through their doubts and
                          > > concerns.
                          > >
                          > > You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
                          > > not all truth is the same. That's why there
                          > > are so many churches. People are social
                          > > animals and tend to seek out others with
                          > > similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
                          > > to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
                          > > to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
                          > > and a test for Soul.
                          > >
                          > > I also got the impression that you don't
                          > > participate much within the RESA structure.
                          > > Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
                          > > Do you know that you have to watch what
                          > > you say? You've observed and learned that
                          > > correct? You do care about being promoted
                          > > to that next initiation right?
                          > >
                          > > Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
                          > > take on the subjects that we've been discussing
                          > > here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
                          > > lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
                          > > for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
                          > > Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
                          > > when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
                          > > "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
                          > > detectors just for his talk?
                          > >
                          > > You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                          > > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
                          > > at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."
                          > >
                          > > BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
                          > > read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?
                          > >
                          > > Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
                          > > the table.
                          > >
                          > > Prometheus
                          > >
                          > > rosemarie wrote:
                          > > Hi Diana,
                          > >
                          > > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this
                          > path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been
                          > to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that
                          > honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth
                          > is truth and will always be the truth.
                          > >
                          > > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we
                          > follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching
                          > which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember,
                          > we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to
                          > bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
                          > >
                          > > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts
                          > sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must
                          > be brave and remain in truth.
                          > >
                          > > Thank you for getting back to me.
                          > > Rosemarie
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > dianastanley wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any
                          > direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from
                          > personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time. If it is
                          > hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew and was their
                          > experience I also say.
                          > >
                          > > Diana Stanley
                          > >
                          > > Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
                          > >
                          > > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who
                          > are searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
                          > findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
                          > thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.
                          > >
                          > I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                          > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
                          > have allot to bring to the table.
                          > >
                          > I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
                          > called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
                          > site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because
                          > I'd raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
                          > well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
                          > complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
                          > thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely
                          > objective.
                          >
                          > For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
                          > paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
                          > >
                          > I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
                          > within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on
                          > the facts.
                          > >
                          > I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
                          > the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
                          > belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking.
                          > Do you?
                          >
                        • prometheus_973
                          Hello Postekcon and All, Yes, it was always a conundrum trying to recruit new members via spreading the word i.e. manure. However, we had structured public
                          Message 12 of 24 , Sep 14, 2011
                            Hello Postekcon and All,
                            Yes, it was always a conundrum
                            trying to recruit new members
                            via "spreading the word" i.e.
                            manure. However, we had
                            structured public workshops
                            and/or book discussions with
                            Guidelines spelling out what
                            to do and how to do it.

                            Some RESA areas did experimental
                            programs (special projects),
                            and if successful, the ESC
                            tweaked them to be used
                            elsewhere. It was all quite
                            time consuming and frustrating.
                            Local areas and the H.I.s were
                            always judged on the numbers
                            of newbies showing up for
                            these events. Most people
                            were repeats and were into
                            metaphysics or were the friends,
                            coworkers or relatives of Eckists.

                            I recall that one local area
                            of a neighboring state was
                            having a lot of success via
                            large turnouts of newbies.
                            They probably had a couple
                            of hundred newbies in one
                            year and that was practically
                            unheard of in Eckankar. Several
                            of these H.I.s were very proud
                            of the "high counts" they turned
                            in to the ESC. However, out
                            of all of those newbies only
                            about ten joined Eckankar
                            and only, maybe, one or two
                            remained after a year. These,
                            I doubt, remained for the
                            long haul. Let's face it, it's
                            a dead end religion where
                            one pretends, i.e. imagines
                            or visualizes, their desires
                            for "spiritual" progress and
                            "knowingness" or "realization"
                            of varying degrees. The initiation
                            game is the main, underlying,
                            theme. The problem, for Eckists,
                            is that dangling carrot when
                            initiations have been "slowed-
                            down" for 25 years and the
                            highest most can go is the 7th!

                            Those 7th initiates who had
                            hit the glass ceiling 20 or more
                            years ago have rationalized
                            it all away. They only stay in
                            EK because they have some
                            prestige, a lot of Eck friends,
                            and have paid their dues with
                            a lot of vahana and satsang
                            work over the years. Plus, they've
                            been taught to "imagine" and
                            visualize, therefore, all they
                            need to do is pretend they are
                            8ths (on the inner). Most pretend
                            they are higher than 8ths. After
                            all, Darwin skipped or sped up
                            initiations even for Klemp. So,
                            if it was valid, then, why not
                            today? Actually, just about all
                            Eckists pretent they are "higher"
                            than the number printed on
                            their Membership Cards.

                            Anyway, the reason why
                            the EK Youth effort has
                            gained some momentum
                            over the years is because
                            it's easier to brainwash a
                            controlled subject. However,
                            that doesn't always work,
                            either, when these young
                            Eckists see their parents
                            act so nutty and non-Eck
                            like. Plus, reclusive Klemp
                            puts a lot of pressure upon
                            them to do the vahana/
                            missionary thing when
                            it's tough enough getting
                            through school and those
                            teen years. Klemp doesn't
                            have any empathy. He was
                            in a Lutheran all boys high
                            school and never learned
                            about dating until he got
                            out of the Air Force (1968)
                            when he was 26 years old!

                            One has to wonder why
                            Klemp doesn't do his fair
                            share of public vahana work.
                            Why doesn't he have a radio
                            show or do and say something
                            in real time? The EK Seminars
                            don't count. That's for maybe
                            a hundred newbies who aren't
                            all that "new" and for his brain-
                            washed followers.

                            In theory, Klemp's real "spiritual"
                            mission is to help his followers
                            achieve God Realization. However,
                            what Initiation level is the indicator
                            that this has been accomplished?

                            According to Book 2, CH. 12 of
                            the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad (Eckankar's
                            Holy Book) their God, Sugmad,
                            resides on the 10th Plane, however,
                            Eckists must have the 11th Initiation
                            for "entrance into the Sugmad world,
                            which is the highest world of God,
                            if any, may enter."

                            Of course, that's not quite true either
                            since there're the 12th, 13th, and 14th
                            initiations after this one. This, then,
                            is where one (supposedly) enters into
                            Soul's true home called The Ocean of
                            love and Mercy. However, one can see
                            why EK Higher initiates (5-7) become
                            internally frustrated since, except for
                            a handful of people, they will never
                            even see the 8th initiation (in this
                            lifetime). That's the Catch/Con that
                            Twitchell invented and Klemp inherited.
                            Hope via promises for a better afterlife
                            while imagining day-to-day miracles
                            and dreaming about one's pre-programmed
                            expectations. It's how any and every
                            religion works.

                            Prometheus




                            "postekcon" wrote:
                            Re
                            >>>
                            ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                            "common language" but it's not
                            quite true. ECK is not a common
                            word and neither is Mahanta.
                            And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                            to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                            others worship or think he is speaking
                            about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                            use the word GOD when it's not
                            who or what they are referring
                            to. It's like comparing apples
                            to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                            start out, and are trained, to be
                            deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                            fact alone makes Eckankar look
                            very cult like. But, why the lie?
                            The "common language" excuse
                            doesn't hold water but Eckists
                            can't question this underhanded
                            practice or else they can have
                            their position taken away and
                            can be Black Listed and shunned.
                            >>>


                            For the past ten years, I have observed this pattern.

                            Hard working HIs (50-70yrs plus) busy putting on Intro Talks, occasionally
                            enrolling a new recruit to ekult.

                            However, within a year or two, the new recruit leaves ekult as nothing makes
                            sense! Of course, the HIs, unable to look at either themselves or ekult, always
                            blame the new recruit with comments such as lack of unfoldment etc!

                            For the new recruit, the reason nothing makes sense, I've observed, is thus. The
                            HIs bring the new recruit into Paul Twitchell/Darwin Gross ekult; the ekult into
                            which they themselved were enrolled. Now this version of ekult promised it had
                            the tools for self/god realization in this lifetime etc. However, several MW
                            (Mystic World) issues later, the new recruit comes to understand these 'good
                            people' lied to them!
                            -Postekcon


                            In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                            <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hello All,
                            > Just thought I'd share some
                            > additional comments to what
                            > Starshine wrote.
                            >
                            > starshine917 wrote:
                            > Hello prometheus_973:
                            > Remember me? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writing to you now….exactly, one
                            > year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I didn't plan it like
                            > this but somehow it just worked out this way.
                            >
                            >
                            > ME: Yes, it takes awhile for the
                            > realization to occur and sink in
                            > even after one decides to look
                            > for and analyze it via critical
                            > thinking while giving HK's/PT's
                            > redundant words a litmus test
                            > for truthiness.
                            >
                            >
                            > I recently left Eckankar. And, you were right….I read David Lane's paper as
                            well as Ford Johnson's "Confessions of a God Seeker" And, for some reason at
                            that time I remained in the group tying to focus on the so-called positive side
                            of the Eckankar, the hypnotic rederick that goes nowhere while ignoring the
                            facts.

                            > I then started to take a good look at Harold…looked into his "dark" eyes and
                            > listened to his figure of monotone speak and I realized it was very hypnotic,
                            > and at the same time very inviting. I wondered who or what was inside of those
                            > dark eyes….And they seem to always come as "the light". Yes, the "angel of
                            > light".
                            >
                            >
                            > ME: Klemp is no angel of light! He spreads
                            > darkness and delusion while denying Eckists
                            > their true nature as Soul. He gives (hope),
                            > promises (higher plane initiations), and then
                            > takes it all away (hope of ever getting beyond
                            > the 7th initiation while in this lifetime, unless,
                            > one pretends or imagines they are higher
                            > via vanity and frustration).
                            >
                            >
                            > I was in a satsang at that time and I found it disturbing more and more that
                            his
                            > same picture of himself, which by the way never changes, the one and only
                            > picture that has to be present at all Eckankar meetings was never questioned
                            by
                            > it's members. All the books we studied were written by him and only him !!!
                            And
                            > how some members were "higher" than others depending on their "initiation"
                            > number, even if these people knew absolutely nothing except what was written
                            in
                            > the books of Eckankar. Some of these people seemed to have anger issues too
                            > which didn't seem to fit the spiritual portrait of a saint they painted. I
                            > started to feel uncomfortable around these people cause they seemed more and
                            > more to me like mind-controlled slaves. And, they too could see that I was
                            > thinking and starting to pull away because I no longer looked to them without
                            > question, with blind authority.
                            >
                            >
                            > ME: Yes, that more youthful looking
                            > Official Picture of Klemp's is a vain act,
                            > but is never questioned because to do
                            > so would get one Black Listed on initiations.
                            > Those longtime Eckists who are part
                            > of the RESA Hierarchy know what I'm
                            > saying. Some H.I.s are fearful/cautious
                            > of the spies that report to the RESA and
                            > only share certain things (anti-Guideline
                            > comments, etc.) around those H.I.s they
                            > can trust.
                            >
                            >
                            > BTW- There are some books, that Klemp
                            > has approved of, written by non-Eck
                            > authors that Eckists can read. However,
                            > the Eckist must always focus upon the
                            > ECK or Mahanta when reading these
                            > books and, thus, give up free, unfettered,
                            > thought. Some of these books are
                            > recommended to those in leadership
                            > positions and are business oriented.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > So, it wasn't a good mix to say the very least. I finally had it out with one
                            of
                            > the members and I realized that I already left…In my heart, I choose to follow
                            > truth and I also realized that that in Eckankar, I was being deceived. And I
                            > realized that I couldn't have it both ways. I had to pick my convictions and
                            go
                            > with them. After all, why would I go against my own self, and what was in my
                            > heart?
                            >
                            >
                            > ME: It's the easy way to place an
                            > authority figure on a shelf higher
                            > than yourself. Less thinking and
                            > effort is involved when blind trust
                            > takes over. It's lazy but that's what
                            > people do. Look at how we allow
                            > the politicians to say and do as
                            > they please without taking responsibility.
                            > With Klemp, it's always the chela's
                            > fault and never his own! He slowed-
                            > down initiations in 1985, but doesn't
                            > need to explain why these haven't
                            > sped up because he answers to
                            > nobody else, except, Sugmad right?
                            >
                            >
                            > In Eckankar it is taught to open and follow your heart but yet, if you dare
                            open
                            > your mind and begin to ask challenging questions, you're in trouble because
                            > these people think the Mahanta in Eckankar is above all else and should never
                            be
                            > questioned, and your heart should be open to "him", the self appointed master,
                            > Harold Klemp. Even if the members of Eckankar are not honest with themselves
                            > enough to admit it consciously. On a subconscious level, they know better !!!
                            >
                            > ME: That following your heart
                            > thing is more about the Astral
                            > Heart Chakra... which is lower
                            > than the Third Eye or Tisra Til!
                            > Why didn't Klemp at least use
                            > the (Astral) Crown Chakra when
                            > having Eckists HU? After 30 years
                            > and HK still has Eckists HUing
                            > and focusing upon the 6th,
                            > Third Eye, Astral Chakra versus
                            > the 7th Crown Chakra!
                            >
                            >
                            > The shame of it all is that this deception is done in the name of an
                            > unconditional open heart to give love, which it is true, a part of GOD's flow
                            > but where's the truth ? What happened to that part of GOD ??? I guess it got
                            > lost in the sea of love…
                            >
                            >
                            > ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                            > "common language" but it's not
                            > quite true. ECK is not a common
                            > word and neither is Mahanta.
                            > And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                            > to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                            > others worship or think he is speaking
                            > about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                            > use the word GOD when it's not
                            > who or what they are referring
                            > to. It's like comparing apples
                            > to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                            > start out, and are trained, to be
                            > deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                            > fact alone makes Eckankar look
                            > very cult like. But, why the lie?
                            > The "common language" excuse
                            > doesn't hold water but Eckists
                            > can't question this underhanded
                            > practice or else they can have
                            > their position taken away and
                            > be Black Listed and shunned.
                            >
                            > Prometheus
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Hello prometheus_973;
                            > Remember me ? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writ
                            >
                            >
                            > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Hello Rosemarie,
                            > > I am a seeker of Truth as well.
                            > > And yes, this article on "The Dark
                            > > Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
                            > > there is a dark side to Eckankar and
                            > > there is also fear.
                            > >
                            > > I find it interesting that you've
                            > > read (and I assume have contemplated
                            > > upon) David Lane's research as well as
                            > > Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
                            > > and have, still, remained an ECKist.
                            > >
                            > > What happened to your "critical thinking?"
                            > > Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
                            > > you agree with some of it but not all of
                            > > it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
                            > > I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
                            > > isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
                            > > what they believe than any other religion
                            > > they've found. Is that the case with you?
                            > >
                            > > I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
                            > > book, threw it away (because of the bad
                            > > vibes), and then placed themselves upon
                            > > pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
                            > > and talk Eckists through their doubts and
                            > > concerns.
                            > >
                            > > You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
                            > > not all truth is the same. That's why there
                            > > are so many churches. People are social
                            > > animals and tend to seek out others with
                            > > similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
                            > > to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
                            > > to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
                            > > and a test for Soul.
                            > >
                            > > I also got the impression that you don't
                            > > participate much within the RESA structure.
                            > > Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
                            > > Do you know that you have to watch what
                            > > you say? You've observed and learned that
                            > > correct? You do care about being promoted
                            > > to that next initiation right?
                            > >
                            > > Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
                            > > take on the subjects that we've been discussing
                            > > here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
                            > > lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
                            > > for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
                            > > Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
                            > > when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
                            > > "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
                            > > detectors just for his talk?
                            > >
                            > > You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                            > > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
                            > > at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."
                            > >
                            > > BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
                            > > read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?
                            > >
                            > > Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
                            > > the table.
                            > >
                            > > Prometheus
                            > >
                            > > rosemarie wrote:
                            > > Hi Diana,
                            > >
                            > > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on
                            this
                            > path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been
                            > to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that
                            > honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that
                            truth
                            > is truth and will always be the truth.
                            > >
                            > > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we
                            > follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching
                            > which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's
                            remember,
                            > we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much
                            to
                            > bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
                            > >
                            > > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it
                            hurts
                            > sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we
                            must
                            > be brave and remain in truth.
                            > >
                            > > Thank you for getting back to me.
                            > > Rosemarie
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > dianastanley wrote:
                            > >
                            > Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any
                            > direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from
                            > personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time. If it is
                            > hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew and was
                            > their experience I also say.
                            > >
                            > > Diana Stanley
                            > >
                            > > Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
                            > >
                            > > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who
                            > are searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
                            > findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
                            > thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.
                            > >
                            > I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                            > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
                            > have allot to bring to the table.
                            > >
                            > I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
                            > called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
                            > site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because
                            > I'd raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
                            > well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
                            > complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
                            > thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely
                            > objective.
                            >
                            > For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
                            > paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
                            > >
                            > I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
                            > within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on
                            > the facts.
                            > >
                            > I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
                            > the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
                            > belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking.
                            > Do you?
                            >
                          • etznab@aol.com
                            One of Paul Twitchell s first reported journey s with Rebazar Tarzs mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme. Check the index section for Ocean
                            Message 13 of 24 , Sep 14, 2011
                              One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar Tarzs
                              mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme. Check the
                              index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with the Master.

                              The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless region,
                              [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called THE FACE OF
                              GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying: [Quoting
                              >] "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the light of
                              God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes could not look
                              upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean of Love
                              and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return in time."
                              (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)

                              Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in the House
                              of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens. Ye cannot
                              go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with my divine
                              self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in the divine
                              cause!"

                              Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the Master, has
                              Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting snippet]:

                              "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in a
                              mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
                              attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
                              "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and after
                              this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul reaches
                              the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or the SUGMAD,
                              the supreme LORD of all that exists."

                              http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html

                              Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the description
                              slightly:

                              "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the Sat Nam in
                              a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in all Sat
                              Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the three
                              remaining known planes.
                              "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
                              after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam Purusha, or
                              lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region of the
                              nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first you know
                              about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the Divine.
                              "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."

                              http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html

                              Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is illustrated (by
                              Paul Twitchell) slightly different.

                              "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam Lok.
                              Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the end of its
                              journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the supreme
                              lord of all that exists."

                              http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html

                              The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok, Alak Lok,
                              Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with Ocean of
                              Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip mention of
                              Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.

                              In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master, Introduction to
                              Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes similarly, and
                              in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain sections from
                              The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:

                              "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit is
                              expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal, Nirala,
                              Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
                              Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country

                              http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html

                              "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many words, such
                              as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala, Anami, Agam,
                              Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar, Parameshwar,
                              Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters

                              http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html

                              Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent from the
                              Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR vs.
                              Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian Johnson's book,
                              The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The Far
                              Country, by at least three decades!

                              Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word, trademarked
                              it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is somehow more
                              than a paraphrase.











                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                              <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Wed, Sep 14, 2011 11:17 am
                              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: "The Dark Side of ECKankar" -
                              And More!

                               
                              Hello Postekcon and All,
                              Yes, it was always a conundrum
                              trying to recruit new members
                              via "spreading the word" i.e.
                              manure. However, we had
                              structured public workshops
                              and/or book discussions with
                              Guidelines spelling out what
                              to do and how to do it.

                              Some RESA areas did experimental
                              programs (special projects),
                              and if successful, the ESC
                              tweaked them to be used
                              elsewhere. It was all quite
                              time consuming and frustrating.
                              Local areas and the H.I.s were
                              always judged on the numbers
                              of newbies showing up for
                              these events. Most people
                              were repeats and were into
                              metaphysics or were the friends,
                              coworkers or relatives of Eckists.

                              I recall that one local area
                              of a neighboring state was
                              having a lot of success via
                              large turnouts of newbies.
                              They probably had a couple
                              of hundred newbies in one
                              year and that was practically
                              unheard of in Eckankar. Several
                              of these H.I.s were very proud
                              of the "high counts" they turned
                              in to the ESC. However, out
                              of all of those newbies only
                              about ten joined Eckankar
                              and only, maybe, one or two
                              remained after a year. These,
                              I doubt, remained for the
                              long haul. Let's face it, it's
                              a dead end religion where
                              one pretends, i.e. imagines
                              or visualizes, their desires
                              for "spiritual" progress and
                              "knowingness" or "realization"
                              of varying degrees. The initiation
                              game is the main, underlying,
                              theme. The problem, for Eckists,
                              is that dangling carrot when
                              initiations have been "slowed-
                              down" for 25 years and the
                              highest most can go is the 7th!

                              Those 7th initiates who had
                              hit the glass ceiling 20 or more
                              years ago have rationalized
                              it all away. They only stay in
                              EK because they have some
                              prestige, a lot of Eck friends,
                              and have paid their dues with
                              a lot of vahana and satsang
                              work over the years. Plus, they've
                              been taught to "imagine" and
                              visualize, therefore, all they
                              need to do is pretend they are
                              8ths (on the inner). Most pretend
                              they are higher than 8ths. After
                              all, Darwin skipped or sped up
                              initiations even for Klemp. So,
                              if it was valid, then, why not
                              today? Actually, just about all
                              Eckists pretent they are "higher"
                              than the number printed on
                              their Membership Cards.

                              Anyway, the reason why
                              the EK Youth effort has
                              gained some momentum
                              over the years is because
                              it's easier to brainwash a
                              controlled subject. However,
                              that doesn't always work,
                              either, when these young
                              Eckists see their parents
                              act so nutty and non-Eck
                              like. Plus, reclusive Klemp
                              puts a lot of pressure upon
                              them to do the vahana/
                              missionary thing when
                              it's tough enough getting
                              through school and those
                              teen years. Klemp doesn't
                              have any empathy. He was
                              in a Lutheran all boys high
                              school and never learned
                              about dating until he got
                              out of the Air Force (1968)
                              when he was 26 years old!

                              One has to wonder why
                              Klemp doesn't do his fair
                              share of public vahana work.
                              Why doesn't he have a radio
                              show or do and say something
                              in real time? The EK Seminars
                              don't count. That's for maybe
                              a hundred newbies who aren't
                              all that "new" and for his brain-
                              washed followers.

                              In theory, Klemp's real "spiritual"
                              mission is to help his followers
                              achieve God Realization. However,
                              what Initiation level is the indicator
                              that this has been accomplished?

                              According to Book 2, CH. 12 of
                              the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad (Eckankar's
                              Holy Book) their God, Sugmad,
                              resides on the 10th Plane, however,
                              Eckists must have the 11th Initiation
                              for "entrance into the Sugmad world,
                              which is the highest world of God,
                              if any, may enter."

                              Of course, that's not quite true either
                              since there're the 12th, 13th, and 14th
                              initiations after this one. This, then,
                              is where one (supposedly) enters into
                              Soul's true home called The Ocean of
                              love and Mercy. However, one can see
                              why EK Higher initiates (5-7) become
                              internally frustrated since, except for
                              a handful of people, they will never
                              even see the 8th initiation (in this
                              lifetime). That's the Catch/Con that
                              Twitchell invented and Klemp inherited.
                              Hope via promises for a better afterlife
                              while imagining day-to-day miracles
                              and dreaming about one's pre-programmed
                              expectations. It's how any and every
                              religion works.

                              Prometheus

                              "postekcon" wrote:
                              Re
                              >>>
                              ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                              "common language" but it's not
                              quite true. ECK is not a common
                              word and neither is Mahanta.
                              And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                              to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                              others worship or think he is speaking
                              about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                              use the word GOD when it's not
                              who or what they are referring
                              to. It's like comparing apples
                              to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                              start out, and are trained, to be
                              deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                              fact alone makes Eckankar look
                              very cult like. But, why the lie?
                              The "common language" excuse
                              doesn't hold water but Eckists
                              can't question this underhanded
                              practice or else they can have
                              their position taken away and
                              can be Black Listed and shunned.
                              >>>

                              For the past ten years, I have observed this pattern.

                              Hard working HIs (50-70yrs plus) busy putting on Intro Talks,
                              occasionally
                              enrolling a new recruit to ekult.

                              However, within a year or two, the new recruit leaves ekult as nothing
                              makes
                              sense! Of course, the HIs, unable to look at either themselves or
                              ekult, always
                              blame the new recruit with comments such as lack of unfoldment etc!

                              For the new recruit, the reason nothing makes sense, I've observed, is
                              thus. The
                              HIs bring the new recruit into Paul Twitchell/Darwin Gross ekult; the
                              ekult into
                              which they themselved were enrolled. Now this version of ekult promised
                              it had
                              the tools for self/god realization in this lifetime etc. However,
                              several MW
                              (Mystic World) issues later, the new recruit comes to understand these
                              'good
                              people' lied to them!
                              -Postekcon

                              In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                              <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hello All,
                              > Just thought I'd share some
                              > additional comments to what
                              > Starshine wrote.
                              >
                              > starshine917 wrote:
                              > Hello prometheus_973:
                              > Remember me? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writing to you
                              now….exactly, one
                              > year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I didn't
                              plan it like
                              > this but somehow it just worked out this way.
                              >
                              >
                              > ME: Yes, it takes awhile for the
                              > realization to occur and sink in
                              > even after one decides to look
                              > for and analyze it via critical
                              > thinking while giving HK's/PT's
                              > redundant words a litmus test
                              > for truthiness.
                              >
                              >
                              > I recently left Eckankar. And, you were right….I read David Lane's
                              paper as
                              well as Ford Johnson's "Confessions of a God Seeker" And, for some
                              reason at
                              that time I remained in the group tying to focus on the so-called
                              positive side
                              of the Eckankar, the hypnotic rederick that goes nowhere while ignoring
                              the
                              facts.

                              > I then started to take a good look at Harold…looked into his
                              "dark" eyes and
                              > listened to his figure of monotone speak and I realized it was
                              very hypnotic,
                              > and at the same time very inviting. I wondered who or what was
                              inside of those
                              > dark eyes….And they seem to always come as "the light". Yes, the
                              "angel of
                              > light".
                              >
                              >
                              > ME: Klemp is no angel of light! He spreads
                              > darkness and delusion while denying Eckists
                              > their true nature as Soul. He gives (hope),
                              > promises (higher plane initiations), and then
                              > takes it all away (hope of ever getting beyond
                              > the 7th initiation while in this lifetime, unless,
                              > one pretends or imagines they are higher
                              > via vanity and frustration).
                              >
                              >
                              > I was in a satsang at that time and I found it disturbing more and
                              more that
                              his
                              > same picture of himself, which by the way never changes, the one
                              and only
                              > picture that has to be present at all Eckankar meetings was never
                              questioned
                              by
                              > it's members. All the books we studied were written by him and
                              only him !!!
                              And
                              > how some members were "higher" than others depending on their
                              "initiation"
                              > number, even if these people knew absolutely nothing except what
                              was written
                              in
                              > the books of Eckankar. Some of these people seemed to have anger
                              issues too
                              > which didn't seem to fit the spiritual portrait of a saint they
                              painted. I
                              > started to feel uncomfortable around these people cause they
                              seemed more and
                              > more to me like mind-controlled slaves. And, they too could see
                              that I was
                              > thinking and starting to pull away because I no longer looked to
                              them without
                              > question, with blind authority.
                              >
                              >
                              > ME: Yes, that more youthful looking
                              > Official Picture of Klemp's is a vain act,
                              > but is never questioned because to do
                              > so would get one Black Listed on initiations.
                              > Those longtime Eckists who are part
                              > of the RESA Hierarchy know what I'm
                              > saying. Some H.I.s are fearful/cautious
                              > of the spies that report to the RESA and
                              > only share certain things (anti-Guideline
                              > comments, etc.) around those H.I.s they
                              > can trust.
                              >
                              >
                              > BTW- There are some books, that Klemp
                              > has approved of, written by non-Eck
                              > authors that Eckists can read. However,
                              > the Eckist must always focus upon the
                              > ECK or Mahanta when reading these
                              > books and, thus, give up free, unfettered,
                              > thought. Some of these books are
                              > recommended to those in leadership
                              > positions and are business oriented.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > So, it wasn't a good mix to say the very least. I finally had it
                              out with one
                              of
                              > the members and I realized that I already left…In my heart, I
                              choose to follow
                              > truth and I also realized that that in Eckankar, I was being
                              deceived. And I
                              > realized that I couldn't have it both ways. I had to pick my
                              convictions and
                              go
                              > with them. After all, why would I go against my own self, and what
                              was in my
                              > heart?
                              >
                              >
                              > ME: It's the easy way to place an
                              > authority figure on a shelf higher
                              > than yourself. Less thinking and
                              > effort is involved when blind trust
                              > takes over. It's lazy but that's what
                              > people do. Look at how we allow
                              > the politicians to say and do as
                              > they please without taking responsibility.
                              > With Klemp, it's always the chela's
                              > fault and never his own! He slowed-
                              > down initiations in 1985, but doesn't
                              > need to explain why these haven't
                              > sped up because he answers to
                              > nobody else, except, Sugmad right?
                              >
                              >
                              > In Eckankar it is taught to open and follow your heart but yet, if
                              you dare
                              open
                              > your mind and begin to ask challenging questions, you're in
                              trouble because
                              > these people think the Mahanta in Eckankar is above all else and
                              should never
                              be
                              > questioned, and your heart should be open to "him", the self
                              appointed master,
                              > Harold Klemp. Even if the members of Eckankar are not honest with
                              themselves
                              > enough to admit it consciously. On a subconscious level, they know
                              better !!!
                              >
                              > ME: That following your heart
                              > thing is more about the Astral
                              > Heart Chakra... which is lower
                              > than the Third Eye or Tisra Til!
                              > Why didn't Klemp at least use
                              > the (Astral) Crown Chakra when
                              > having Eckists HU? After 30 years
                              > and HK still has Eckists HUing
                              > and focusing upon the 6th,
                              > Third Eye, Astral Chakra versus
                              > the 7th Crown Chakra!
                              >
                              >
                              > The shame of it all is that this deception is done in the name of
                              an
                              > unconditional open heart to give love, which it is true, a part of
                              GOD's flow
                              > but where's the truth ? What happened to that part of GOD ??? I
                              guess it got
                              > lost in the sea of love…
                              >
                              >
                              > ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                              > "common language" but it's not
                              > quite true. ECK is not a common
                              > word and neither is Mahanta.
                              > And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                              > to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                              > others worship or think he is speaking
                              > about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                              > use the word GOD when it's not
                              > who or what they are referring
                              > to. It's like comparing apples
                              > to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                              > start out, and are trained, to be
                              > deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                              > fact alone makes Eckankar look
                              > very cult like. But, why the lie?
                              > The "common language" excuse
                              > doesn't hold water but Eckists
                              > can't question this underhanded
                              > practice or else they can have
                              > their position taken away and
                              > be Black Listed and shunned.
                              >
                              > Prometheus
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Hello prometheus_973;
                              > Remember me ? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writ
                              >
                              >
                              > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Hello Rosemarie,
                              > > I am a seeker of Truth as well.
                              > > And yes, this article on "The Dark
                              > > Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
                              > > there is a dark side to Eckankar and
                              > > there is also fear.
                              > >
                              > > I find it interesting that you've
                              > > read (and I assume have contemplated
                              > > upon) David Lane's research as well as
                              > > Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
                              > > and have, still, remained an ECKist.
                              > >
                              > > What happened to your "critical thinking?"
                              > > Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
                              > > you agree with some of it but not all of
                              > > it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
                              > > I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
                              > > isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
                              > > what they believe than any other religion
                              > > they've found. Is that the case with you?
                              > >
                              > > I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
                              > > book, threw it away (because of the bad
                              > > vibes), and then placed themselves upon
                              > > pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
                              > > and talk Eckists through their doubts and
                              > > concerns.
                              > >
                              > > You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
                              > > not all truth is the same. That's why there
                              > > are so many churches. People are social
                              > > animals and tend to seek out others with
                              > > similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
                              > > to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
                              > > to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
                              > > and a test for Soul.
                              > >
                              > > I also got the impression that you don't
                              > > participate much within the RESA structure.
                              > > Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
                              > > Do you know that you have to watch what
                              > > you say? You've observed and learned that
                              > > correct? You do care about being promoted
                              > > to that next initiation right?
                              > >
                              > > Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
                              > > take on the subjects that we've been discussing
                              > > here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
                              > > lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
                              > > for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
                              > > Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
                              > > when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
                              > > "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
                              > > detectors just for his talk?
                              > >
                              > > You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                              > > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
                              > > at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."
                              > >
                              > > BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
                              > > read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?
                              > >
                              > > Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
                              > > the table.
                              > >
                              > > Prometheus
                              > >
                              > > rosemarie wrote:
                              > > Hi Diana,
                              > >
                              > > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar
                              and while on
                              this
                              > path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as
                              well. I've been
                              > to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I
                              agree that
                              > honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also
                              understand that
                              truth
                              > is truth and will always be the truth.
                              > >
                              > > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless
                              of what path we
                              > follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are
                              all searching
                              > which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and
                              let's
                              remember,
                              > we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We
                              have so much
                              to
                              > bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and
                              experience.
                              > >
                              > > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it
                              even if it
                              hurts
                              > sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back
                              to GOD, we
                              must
                              > be brave and remain in truth.
                              > >
                              > > Thank you for getting back to me.
                              > > Rosemarie
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > dianastanley wrote:
                              > >
                              > Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you
                              have any
                              > direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it
                              is from
                              > personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time.
                              If it is
                              > hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew
                              and was
                              > their experience I also say.
                              > >
                              > > Diana Stanley
                              > >
                              > > Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
                              > >
                              > > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for
                              those of you who
                              > are searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for
                              sharing your
                              > findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light"
                              of critical
                              > thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.
                              > >
                              > I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar
                              has issues.
                              > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this
                              site, so we
                              > have allot to bring to the table.
                              > >
                              > I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used
                              in this paper
                              > called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links"
                              in this web
                              > site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of
                              challenge because
                              > I'd raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this
                              paper as
                              > well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be
                              painted with
                              > complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of
                              critical
                              > thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being
                              completely
                              > objective.
                              >
                              > For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack
                              ECKankar in this
                              > paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they
                              originated.
                              > >
                              > I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure
                              is overdo
                              > within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is
                              based on
                              > the facts.
                              > >
                              > I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't
                              think
                              > the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within
                              one religious
                              > belief system and exchange them for another in the name of
                              critical thinking.
                              > Do you?
                              >
                            • prometheus_973
                              Hello Etznab and All, It is interesting that Twitchell has his Rebazar character (the Master who initiated him) indicate that there were 8 Planes just as
                              Message 14 of 24 , Sep 16, 2011
                                Hello Etznab and All,
                                It is interesting that Twitchell
                                has his Rebazar character (the
                                "Master" who initiated him)
                                indicate that there were 8 Planes
                                just as Radhasomi and Ruhani
                                Satsang have listed in "The Path
                                of the Masters." Since Kirpal
                                Singh, of Ruhani Satsang, was
                                Paul's real life Master for ten years
                                it's no wonder that this dogma was
                                influential in the design of Eckankar.

                                Of course, Twitchell was constantly
                                tweaking, revising, and masking his
                                religious con as time went by.

                                The Anami Lok (10th Plane where
                                "Sugmad" resides) didn't appear until
                                later. Did Rebazar simply forget to
                                mention this as well as the "Mahanta?"
                                Did RT think that Paul needed to be
                                spoon-fed and wasn't ready for this
                                advanced "spiritual" info? No, not really.
                                According to Twitchell he had been
                                given the 12th and "final initiation"
                                (to become LEM) back in 1951 by
                                Rebazar while on his "2nd" visit to
                                India. See, the timeline is off for this
                                ekplanation to be taken seriously as
                                well.

                                Therefore, there is no rational excuse
                                for these inconsistencies except to
                                admit that the "rascal" Twitchell was,
                                once again, "exaggerating" and "twisting
                                facts" as even Klemp has described
                                and said of him. Klemp, years ago,
                                had to admit that Twitchell was a self-
                                promoter and did or said whatever
                                he needed to do ("By Any Means Necessary")
                                in order to get Eckankar off the ground.

                                This is why Klemp, at first, had a
                                difficult job of explaining Twitchell's
                                inconsistencies and needed to keep
                                Eckists confused, busy, and off-balance.
                                Now, Eckists are so brainwashed that
                                Klemp can say whatever in his simple
                                minded redundant versions of feel-good
                                New Age spirituality.


                                Prometheus



                                etznab wrote:

                                One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar Tarzs
                                mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme. Check the
                                index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with the Master.

                                The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless region,
                                [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called THE FACE OF
                                GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying: [Quoting]
                                "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the light of
                                God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes could not look
                                upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean of Love
                                and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return in time."
                                (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)

                                Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in the House
                                of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens. Ye cannot
                                go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with my divine
                                self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in the divine
                                cause!"

                                Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the Master, has
                                Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting snippet]:

                                "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in a
                                mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
                                attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
                                "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and after
                                this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul reaches
                                the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or the SUGMAD,
                                the supreme LORD of all that exists."

                                http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html

                                Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the description
                                slightly:

                                "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the Sat Nam in
                                a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in all Sat
                                Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the three
                                remaining known planes.

                                "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
                                after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam Purusha, or
                                lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region of the
                                nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first you know
                                about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the Divine.

                                "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."

                                http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html

                                Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is illustrated (by
                                Paul Twitchell) slightly different.

                                "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam Lok.
                                Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the end of its
                                journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the supreme
                                lord of all that exists."

                                http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html

                                The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok, Alak Lok,
                                Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with Ocean of
                                Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip mention of
                                Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.

                                In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master, Introduction to
                                Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes similarly, and
                                in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain sections from
                                The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:

                                "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit is
                                expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal, Nirala,
                                Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
                                Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country

                                http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html

                                "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many words, such
                                as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala, Anami, Agam,
                                Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar, Parameshwar,
                                Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters

                                http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html

                                Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent from the
                                Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR vs.
                                Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian Johnson's book,
                                The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The Far
                                Country, by at least three decades!

                                Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word, trademarked
                                it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is somehow more
                                than a paraphrase.
                              • etznab18
                                Almost didn t see this response because the e-mail bounced. Umm ... about the self-promotion, whatever, people can read about some of the history here.
                                Message 15 of 24 , Sep 16, 2011
                                  Almost didn't see this response because the e-mail bounced.

                                  Umm ... about the self-promotion, whatever, people can read about some of the history here.

                                  http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html

                                  Check out 4th paragraph of article entitled: Paul's Seal of Approval.

                                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hello Etznab and All,
                                  > It is interesting that Twitchell
                                  > has his Rebazar character (the
                                  > "Master" who initiated him)
                                  > indicate that there were 8 Planes
                                  > just as Radhasomi and Ruhani
                                  > Satsang have listed in "The Path
                                  > of the Masters." Since Kirpal
                                  > Singh, of Ruhani Satsang, was
                                  > Paul's real life Master for ten years
                                  > it's no wonder that this dogma was
                                  > influential in the design of Eckankar.
                                  >
                                  > Of course, Twitchell was constantly
                                  > tweaking, revising, and masking his
                                  > religious con as time went by.
                                  >
                                  > The Anami Lok (10th Plane where
                                  > "Sugmad" resides) didn't appear until
                                  > later. Did Rebazar simply forget to
                                  > mention this as well as the "Mahanta?"
                                  > Did RT think that Paul needed to be
                                  > spoon-fed and wasn't ready for this
                                  > advanced "spiritual" info? No, not really.
                                  > According to Twitchell he had been
                                  > given the 12th and "final initiation"
                                  > (to become LEM) back in 1951 by
                                  > Rebazar while on his "2nd" visit to
                                  > India. See, the timeline is off for this
                                  > ekplanation to be taken seriously as
                                  > well.
                                  >
                                  > Therefore, there is no rational excuse
                                  > for these inconsistencies except to
                                  > admit that the "rascal" Twitchell was,
                                  > once again, "exaggerating" and "twisting
                                  > facts" as even Klemp has described
                                  > and said of him. Klemp, years ago,
                                  > had to admit that Twitchell was a self-
                                  > promoter and did or said whatever
                                  > he needed to do ("By Any Means Necessary")
                                  > in order to get Eckankar off the ground.
                                  >
                                  > This is why Klemp, at first, had a
                                  > difficult job of explaining Twitchell's
                                  > inconsistencies and needed to keep
                                  > Eckists confused, busy, and off-balance.
                                  > Now, Eckists are so brainwashed that
                                  > Klemp can say whatever in his simple
                                  > minded redundant versions of feel-good
                                  > New Age spirituality.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Prometheus
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > etznab wrote:
                                  >
                                  > One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar Tarzs
                                  > mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme. Check the
                                  > index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with the Master.
                                  >
                                  > The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless region,
                                  > [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called THE FACE OF
                                  > GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying: [Quoting]
                                  > "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the light of
                                  > God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes could not look
                                  > upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean of Love
                                  > and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return in time."
                                  > (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)
                                  >
                                  > Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in the House
                                  > of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens. Ye cannot
                                  > go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with my divine
                                  > self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in the divine
                                  > cause!"
                                  >
                                  > Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the Master, has
                                  > Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting snippet]:
                                  >
                                  > "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in a
                                  > mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
                                  > attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
                                  > "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and after
                                  > this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul reaches
                                  > the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or the SUGMAD,
                                  > the supreme LORD of all that exists."
                                  >
                                  > http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html
                                  >
                                  > Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the description
                                  > slightly:
                                  >
                                  > "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the Sat Nam in
                                  > a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in all Sat
                                  > Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the three
                                  > remaining known planes.
                                  >
                                  > "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
                                  > after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam Purusha, or
                                  > lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region of the
                                  > nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first you know
                                  > about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the Divine.
                                  >
                                  > "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."
                                  >
                                  > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                  >
                                  > Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is illustrated (by
                                  > Paul Twitchell) slightly different.
                                  >
                                  > "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam Lok.
                                  > Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the end of its
                                  > journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the supreme
                                  > lord of all that exists."
                                  >
                                  > http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html
                                  >
                                  > The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok, Alak Lok,
                                  > Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with Ocean of
                                  > Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip mention of
                                  > Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.
                                  >
                                  > In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master, Introduction to
                                  > Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes similarly, and
                                  > in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain sections from
                                  > The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:
                                  >
                                  > "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit is
                                  > expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal, Nirala,
                                  > Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
                                  > Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country
                                  >
                                  > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                  >
                                  > "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many words, such
                                  > as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala, Anami, Agam,
                                  > Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar, Parameshwar,
                                  > Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters
                                  >
                                  > http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html
                                  >
                                  > Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent from the
                                  > Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR vs.
                                  > Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian Johnson's book,
                                  > The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The Far
                                  > Country, by at least three decades!
                                  >
                                  > Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word, trademarked
                                  > it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is somehow more
                                  > than a paraphrase.
                                  >
                                • prometheus_973
                                  Hello Etznab and All, This tells how Paul Twitchell was His Own Drum Beater: http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html What s interesting is that at
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Sep 17, 2011
                                    Hello Etznab and All,
                                    This tells how Paul Twitchell
                                    was His Own Drum Beater:

                                    http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html

                                    What's interesting is that at age 27 (1935)
                                    Twitchell was saying that he had been
                                    to India (supposedly at age 15 to meet
                                    Rebazar for the first time, DOBTLEM).
                                    However, Klemp points out that Twitchell
                                    was doing another self-promotion, and
                                    was lying in order to get into Who's Who
                                    in Kentucky. Klemp states that Twitchell
                                    had never been all that far from home
                                    at age 27. Klemp seems to have stepped
                                    into a big pile of Twits mess. HK's
                                    statement contradicts what Twitchell
                                    revealed in Difficulties of Becoming the
                                    Living ECK Master circa July, 1971. This
                                    1971 date is, supposedly, long after Twitchell
                                    (the Mahanta) was was no longer "exaggerating"
                                    and "twisting facts." However, as Klemp
                                    has pointed out Twitchell was still lying
                                    and promoting his con up until his untimely
                                    and death in September, 1971.

                                    Prometheus

                                    etznab@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Almost didn't see this response because the e-mail bounced.
                                    >
                                    > Umm ... about the self-promotion, whatever, people can read about some of the history here.
                                    >
                                    > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html
                                    >
                                    > Check out 4th paragraph of article entitled: Paul's Seal of Approval.
                                    >
                                    > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Hello Etznab and All,
                                    > > It is interesting that Twitchell
                                    > > has his Rebazar character (the
                                    > > "Master" who initiated him)
                                    > > indicate that there were 8 Planes
                                    > > just as Radhasomi and Ruhani
                                    > > Satsang have listed in "The Path
                                    > > of the Masters." Since Kirpal
                                    > > Singh, of Ruhani Satsang, was
                                    > > Paul's real life Master for ten years
                                    > > it's no wonder that this dogma was
                                    > > influential in the design of Eckankar.
                                    > >
                                    > > Of course, Twitchell was constantly
                                    > > tweaking, revising, and masking his
                                    > > religious con as time went by.
                                    > >
                                    > > The Anami Lok (10th Plane where
                                    > > "Sugmad" resides) didn't appear until
                                    > > later. Did Rebazar simply forget to
                                    > > mention this as well as the "Mahanta?"
                                    > > Did RT think that Paul needed to be
                                    > > spoon-fed and wasn't ready for this
                                    > > advanced "spiritual" info? No, not really.
                                    > > According to Twitchell he had been
                                    > > given the 12th and "final initiation"
                                    > > (to become LEM) back in 1951 by
                                    > > Rebazar while on his "2nd" visit to
                                    > > India. See, the timeline is off for this
                                    > > ekplanation to be taken seriously as
                                    > > well.
                                    > >
                                    > > Therefore, there is no rational excuse
                                    > > for these inconsistencies except to
                                    > > admit that the "rascal" Twitchell was,
                                    > > once again, "exaggerating" and "twisting
                                    > > facts" as even Klemp has described
                                    > > and said of him. Klemp, years ago,
                                    > > had to admit that Twitchell was a self-
                                    > > promoter and did or said whatever
                                    > > he needed to do ("By Any Means Necessary")
                                    > > in order to get Eckankar off the ground.
                                    > >
                                    > > This is why Klemp, at first, had a
                                    > > difficult job of explaining Twitchell's
                                    > > inconsistencies and needed to keep
                                    > > Eckists confused, busy, and off-balance.
                                    > > Now, Eckists are so brainwashed that
                                    > > Klemp can say whatever in his simple
                                    > > minded redundant versions of feel-good
                                    > > New Age spirituality.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Prometheus
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > etznab wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar Tarzs
                                    > > mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme. Check the
                                    > > index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with the Master.
                                    > >
                                    > > The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless region,
                                    > > [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called THE FACE OF
                                    > > GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying: [Quoting]
                                    > > "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the light of
                                    > > God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes could not look
                                    > > upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean of Love
                                    > > and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return in time."
                                    > > (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)
                                    > >
                                    > > Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in the House
                                    > > of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens. Ye cannot
                                    > > go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with my divine
                                    > > self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in the divine
                                    > > cause!"
                                    > >
                                    > > Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the Master, has
                                    > > Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting snippet]:
                                    > >
                                    > > "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in a
                                    > > mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
                                    > > attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
                                    > > "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and after
                                    > > this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul reaches
                                    > > the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or the SUGMAD,
                                    > > the supreme LORD of all that exists."
                                    > >
                                    > > http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html
                                    > >
                                    > > Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the description
                                    > > slightly:
                                    > >
                                    > > "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the Sat Nam in
                                    > > a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in all Sat
                                    > > Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the three
                                    > > remaining known planes.
                                    > >
                                    > > "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
                                    > > after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam Purusha, or
                                    > > lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region of the
                                    > > nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first you know
                                    > > about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the Divine.
                                    > >
                                    > > "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."
                                    > >
                                    > > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                    > >
                                    > > Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is illustrated (by
                                    > > Paul Twitchell) slightly different.
                                    > >
                                    > > "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam Lok.
                                    > > Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the end of its
                                    > > journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the supreme
                                    > > lord of all that exists."
                                    > >
                                    > > http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html
                                    > >
                                    > > The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok, Alak Lok,
                                    > > Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with Ocean of
                                    > > Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip mention of
                                    > > Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.
                                    > >
                                    > > In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master, Introduction to
                                    > > Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes similarly, and
                                    > > in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain sections from
                                    > > The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:
                                    > >
                                    > > "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit is
                                    > > expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal, Nirala,
                                    > > Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
                                    > > Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country
                                    > >
                                    > > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                    > >
                                    > > "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many words, such
                                    > > as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala, Anami, Agam,
                                    > > Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar, Parameshwar,
                                    > > Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters
                                    > >
                                    > > http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html
                                    > >
                                    > > Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent from the
                                    > > Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR vs.
                                    > > Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian Johnson's book,
                                    > > The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The Far
                                    > > Country, by at least three decades!
                                    > >
                                    > > Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word, trademarked
                                    > > it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is somehow more
                                    > > than a paraphrase.
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • etznab@aol.com
                                    I think a lot of people can overlook this stuff, thinking that whatever Paul Twitchell said/wrote must be the truth. Some people just might not care. Well,
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Sep 17, 2011
                                      I think a lot of people can overlook this stuff, thinking that whatever
                                      Paul Twitchell said/wrote must be the truth. Some people just might not
                                      care. Well, it's reasonable to suspect this talent - for promotion,
                                      even when it means making things up, stretching the truth, or just
                                      plain spinning lies - was used to "create" the Eckankar mythos.

                                      myth

                                      1830, from Gk. mythos "speech, thought, story, myth," of unknown origin.

                                      Myths are "stories about divine beings, generally arranged in a
                                      coherent system; they are revered as true and sacred; they are endorsed
                                      by rulers and priests; and closely linked to religion. Once this link
                                      is broken, and the actors in the story are not regarded as gods but as
                                      human heroes, giants or fairies, it is no longer a myth but a folktale.
                                      Where the central actor is divine but the story is trivial ... the
                                      result is religious legend, not myth." [J. Simpson & S. Roud,
                                      "Dictionary of English Folklore," Oxford, 2000, p.254]

                                      General sense of "untrue story, rumor" is from 1840.

                                      http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=mythos&searchmode=none

                                      In other words, amid all the compilations and recycled material, etc.,
                                      context has been changed (in various places) when it comes to source. I
                                      wonder, could Paul Twitchell have created "Eckankar" and at the same
                                      time given the source for all of his material? I noticed Kirpal Singh
                                      and others were very good at citing references and sharing what
                                      quote/saying came from who. So if Paul Twitchell ever chose to use
                                      passages and paragraphs from books, Did he always feel obligated to
                                      provide that information?

                                      As a promoter, I suspect the person wants to give credit to whatever
                                      they're promoting and not give more credit to "other products" instead.
                                      It makes sense (to me) that Paul Twitchell would "paint the name
                                      Eckankar" over so much material he had read (in so many words). Not
                                      only this, but it even appears probable that Paul Twitchell took
                                      liberty to respell and redefine words according to fit them in a new,
                                      and growing, Eckankar philosophy. Not only words, but names too!

                                      How extensive the promotion and PR campaign that created contemporary
                                      Eckankar teaching? In so many ways, it seems this is the part that
                                      doesn't agree with people. Not unless they knew from the beginning that
                                      information was not necessarily accurate and in some places embellished.

                                      embellish

                                      mid-14c., "to render beautiful," from O.Fr. embelliss-, stem of
                                      embellir "make beautiful, ornament," from em- (see en- (1)) + bel
                                      "beautiful," from L. bellus (see bene-). Meaning "dress up (a
                                      narration) with fictitious matter" is from mid-15c. Related:
                                      Embellished; embellishing.

                                      http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=embellished&searchmode=none

                                      Reading through early Eckankar books I think common sense might tell a
                                      person that parts of the material was embellished. At the same time I
                                      also think people could naturally so much want the material to be true
                                      that they allow imagination to "make it so" and overrule common sense.

                                      Ever observe what happens when you're part of a group where countless
                                      individuals believe in things - through imagination - that aren't
                                      necessarily true? I mean, when you're one of the unbelievers and part
                                      of the minority who question whether so many imagined things are true?


                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                                      <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Sat, Sep 17, 2011 2:14 am
                                      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: "The Dark Side of ECKankar" -
                                      And More!

                                       
                                      Hello Etznab and All,
                                      This tells how Paul Twitchell
                                      was His Own Drum Beater:

                                      http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html

                                      What's interesting is that at age 27 (1935)
                                      Twitchell was saying that he had been
                                      to India (supposedly at age 15 to meet
                                      Rebazar for the first time, DOBTLEM).
                                      However, Klemp points out that Twitchell
                                      was doing another self-promotion, and
                                      was lying in order to get into Who's Who
                                      in Kentucky. Klemp states that Twitchell
                                      had never been all that far from home
                                      at age 27. Klemp seems to have stepped
                                      into a big pile of Twits mess. HK's
                                      statement contradicts what Twitchell
                                      revealed in Difficulties of Becoming the
                                      Living ECK Master circa July, 1971. This
                                      1971 date is, supposedly, long after Twitchell
                                      (the Mahanta) was was no longer "exaggerating"
                                      and "twisting facts." However, as Klemp
                                      has pointed out Twitchell was still lying
                                      and promoting his con up until his untimely
                                      and death in September, 1971.

                                      Prometheus

                                      etznab@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Almost didn't see this response because the e-mail bounced.
                                      >
                                      > Umm ... about the self-promotion, whatever, people can read about
                                      some of the history here.
                                      >
                                      > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html
                                      >
                                      > Check out 4th paragraph of article entitled: Paul's Seal of
                                      Approval.
                                      >
                                      > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                                      "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Hello Etznab and All,
                                      > > It is interesting that Twitchell
                                      > > has his Rebazar character (the
                                      > > "Master" who initiated him)
                                      > > indicate that there were 8 Planes
                                      > > just as Radhasomi and Ruhani
                                      > > Satsang have listed in "The Path
                                      > > of the Masters." Since Kirpal
                                      > > Singh, of Ruhani Satsang, was
                                      > > Paul's real life Master for ten years
                                      > > it's no wonder that this dogma was
                                      > > influential in the design of Eckankar.
                                      > >
                                      > > Of course, Twitchell was constantly
                                      > > tweaking, revising, and masking his
                                      > > religious con as time went by.
                                      > >
                                      > > The Anami Lok (10th Plane where
                                      > > "Sugmad" resides) didn't appear until
                                      > > later. Did Rebazar simply forget to
                                      > > mention this as well as the "Mahanta?"
                                      > > Did RT think that Paul needed to be
                                      > > spoon-fed and wasn't ready for this
                                      > > advanced "spiritual" info? No, not really.
                                      > > According to Twitchell he had been
                                      > > given the 12th and "final initiation"
                                      > > (to become LEM) back in 1951 by
                                      > > Rebazar while on his "2nd" visit to
                                      > > India. See, the timeline is off for this
                                      > > ekplanation to be taken seriously as
                                      > > well.
                                      > >
                                      > > Therefore, there is no rational excuse
                                      > > for these inconsistencies except to
                                      > > admit that the "rascal" Twitchell was,
                                      > > once again, "exaggerating" and "twisting
                                      > > facts" as even Klemp has described
                                      > > and said of him. Klemp, years ago,
                                      > > had to admit that Twitchell was a self-
                                      > > promoter and did or said whatever
                                      > > he needed to do ("By Any Means Necessary")
                                      > > in order to get Eckankar off the ground.
                                      > >
                                      > > This is why Klemp, at first, had a
                                      > > difficult job of explaining Twitchell's
                                      > > inconsistencies and needed to keep
                                      > > Eckists confused, busy, and off-balance.
                                      > > Now, Eckists are so brainwashed that
                                      > > Klemp can say whatever in his simple
                                      > > minded redundant versions of feel-good
                                      > > New Age spirituality.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Prometheus
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > etznab wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar
                                      Tarzs
                                      > > mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme.
                                      Check the
                                      > > index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with
                                      the Master.
                                      > >
                                      > > The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless
                                      region,
                                      > > [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called
                                      THE FACE OF
                                      > > GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying:
                                      [Quoting]
                                      > > "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the
                                      light of
                                      > > God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes
                                      could not look
                                      > > upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean
                                      of Love
                                      > > and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return
                                      in time."
                                      > > (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)
                                      > >
                                      > > Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in
                                      the House
                                      > > of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens.
                                      Ye cannot
                                      > > go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with
                                      my divine
                                      > > self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in
                                      the divine
                                      > > cause!"
                                      > >
                                      > > Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the
                                      Master, has
                                      > > Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting
                                      snippet]:
                                      > >
                                      > > "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in
                                      a
                                      > > mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
                                      > > attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
                                      > > "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
                                      after
                                      > > this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul
                                      reaches
                                      > > the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or
                                      the SUGMAD,
                                      > > the supreme LORD of all that exists."
                                      > >
                                      > > http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html
                                      > >
                                      > > Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the
                                      description
                                      > > slightly:
                                      > >
                                      > > "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the
                                      Sat Nam in
                                      > > a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in
                                      all Sat
                                      > > Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the
                                      three
                                      > > remaining known planes.
                                      > >
                                      > > "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha,
                                      and
                                      > > after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam
                                      Purusha, or
                                      > > lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region
                                      of the
                                      > > nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first
                                      you know
                                      > > about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the
                                      Divine.
                                      > >
                                      > > "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."
                                      > >
                                      > > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                      > >
                                      > > Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is
                                      illustrated (by
                                      > > Paul Twitchell) slightly different.
                                      > >
                                      > > "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam
                                      Lok.
                                      > > Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the
                                      end of its
                                      > > journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the
                                      supreme
                                      > > lord of all that exists."
                                      > >
                                      > > http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html
                                      > >
                                      > > The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok,
                                      Alak Lok,
                                      > > Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with
                                      Ocean of
                                      > > Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip
                                      mention of
                                      > > Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.
                                      > >
                                      > > In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master,
                                      Introduction to
                                      > > Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes
                                      similarly, and
                                      > > in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain
                                      sections from
                                      > > The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:
                                      > >
                                      > > "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit
                                      is
                                      > > expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal,
                                      Nirala,
                                      > > Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
                                      > > Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country
                                      > >
                                      > > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                      > >
                                      > > "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many
                                      words, such
                                      > > as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala,
                                      Anami, Agam,
                                      > > Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar,
                                      Parameshwar,
                                      > > Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters
                                      > >
                                      > > http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html
                                      > >
                                      > > Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent
                                      from the
                                      > > Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR
                                      vs.
                                      > > Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian
                                      Johnson's book,
                                      > > The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The
                                      Far
                                      > > Country, by at least three decades!
                                      > >
                                      > > Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word,
                                      trademarked
                                      > > it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is
                                      somehow more
                                      > > than a paraphrase.
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • prometheus_973
                                      Hello Etznab and All, It s true that most Eckists have turned a blind eye towards their religion. However, it s done via Klemp s subtle and not so subtle
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Sep 17, 2011
                                        Hello Etznab and All,
                                        It's true that most Eckists have
                                        turned a blind eye towards their
                                        religion. However, it's done via
                                        Klemp's subtle and not so subtle
                                        intimidation tactics such as:

                                        Going to the "inner" to have
                                        one's questions answered...
                                        this is what the more "advanced"
                                        and "enlightened" Eckists do.

                                        Using the Buddha quote of, "Is
                                        it true, is it necessary, is it kind"
                                        this I ask myself before I speak
                                        my mind.

                                        HK writing articles and giving
                                        talks on the negativity of gossip
                                        and how it hinders one's "spiritual"
                                        growth.

                                        Also, there's the unspoken knowledge
                                        that those who ask too many questions,
                                        especially "wrong" questions, will get
                                        Eckists Black Listed on initiations or
                                        to have them slowed down 3-5 years
                                        (on average) longer than normal.

                                        Plus, Eckankar's Higher Initiates
                                        (5-7) are a very passive group
                                        and don't want to question the
                                        foundation of their religion because
                                        things are going okay so why rock
                                        the boat? Being an H.I. is an ego
                                        trip and a security blanket too.

                                        And, let's face it, most Eckists don't
                                        have the time or inclination to research
                                        the old, P.T., Eckankar texts. They've
                                        read it all before so why go back and
                                        read it with new eyes and a changed
                                        consciousness? However, it does make
                                        one wonder why they've allowed them-
                                        selves to be shackled to HK's dogma
                                        when it's all based upon Twitchell's
                                        "compilation."

                                        In PT's Eckankar Dictionary, Shariyat
                                        One and HK's First Lexicon, they
                                        tell about the first "root race" called
                                        the "POLARIANS." Klemp must agree
                                        with Twitchell on this dogmatic information
                                        since he put it into his own Eckankar
                                        Lexicon.

                                        But, do Eckists really believe in the
                                        Old Testament Christian Myth about
                                        the Garden of Eden? Actually, no,
                                        they don't! I've even read where
                                        they've made fun of this. How ironic!
                                        Twitchell not only states that the
                                        Garden of Eden existed but gives
                                        his own (revised) names of those
                                        present. In the ECK version Adam
                                        becomes "Adom" and Eve becomes
                                        "Ede" (like in Eden) This is, of course,
                                        a clear picture of how Twitchell created
                                        Eckankar. He took certain words,
                                        names, and information changed
                                        the text and letters around, or added
                                        and omitted letters, and made the
                                        info his own.

                                        What's really funny is that in defense
                                        of Twitchell Klemp has claimed that
                                        Paul "compiled" only the highest teachings
                                        from around the world in order to
                                        create the highest "spiritual" teaching
                                        anywhere and at anytime. Why then,
                                        did Twitchell use the Garden of Eden
                                        myth, and create Adom and Ede?
                                        Is this supposed to be the actual
                                        account while the Christian version
                                        is less accurate. This is how Eckists
                                        rationalize and explain everything
                                        (the truth) away. ECK is a facsimile
                                        and everything else is a copy. But
                                        this shows that all religions are
                                        distorted and inaccurate copies.

                                        It really should be embarrassing,
                                        for Eckists, since this information
                                        is listed in their first Holy Book
                                        under Polarian race (check the
                                        index for the page number).

                                        Plus, let's face it. This Garden
                                        of Eden myth is a non-evolutionary
                                        belief. It was devised during
                                        a time of ignorance and pre-science
                                        in order to give a religious explanation
                                        for creation. And, it's been revised
                                        even by early Christianity because
                                        Lillith was supposed to have been
                                        Adam's first mate who was created
                                        equally with him.

                                        Later, the creation myth story was
                                        changed so that Eve was created
                                        from Adam's rib in order to make
                                        her subservient to him... as Eckists
                                        are to subservient to Klemp. Thus,
                                        no female LEMs and even Mahantas
                                        are permitted due to some hokey
                                        negative atom ekplanation.


                                        But, Eckists are in denial of the truth
                                        as they continue to pretend they
                                        are advanced Souls. The mind is
                                        very powerful and that's why Eckankar
                                        appears to work for Eckists. The
                                        mind will give one the dreams
                                        and "signs" that are programmed
                                        into it via suggestion and expectation.
                                        However, isn't this the modus
                                        operandi of all religions? If one
                                        just Googles "miracles" one can
                                        see examples of faith and belief
                                        that would put any Eckist to shame.

                                        Therefore, why do Eckists not
                                        see the truth? Is it that they
                                        have tied up their camels, to
                                        a fraudent belief, and now, trust
                                        in a make believe God/Mahanta...
                                        Klemp? It is the Easy Way!

                                        Prometheus




                                        etznab@... wrote:
                                        I think a lot of people can overlook this stuff, thinking that whatever
                                        Paul Twitchell said/wrote must be the truth. Some people just might not
                                        care. Well, it's reasonable to suspect this talent - for promotion,
                                        even when it means making things up, stretching the truth, or just
                                        plain spinning lies - was used to "create" the Eckankar mythos.

                                        myth

                                        1830, from Gk. mythos "speech, thought, story, myth," of unknown origin.

                                        Myths are "stories about divine beings, generally arranged in a
                                        coherent system; they are revered as true and sacred; they are endorsed
                                        by rulers and priests; and closely linked to religion. Once this link
                                        is broken, and the actors in the story are not regarded as gods but as
                                        human heroes, giants or fairies, it is no longer a myth but a folktale.
                                        Where the central actor is divine but the story is trivial ... the
                                        result is religious legend, not myth." [J. Simpson & S. Roud,
                                        "Dictionary of English Folklore," Oxford, 2000, p.254]

                                        General sense of "untrue story, rumor" is from 1840.

                                        http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=mythos&searchmode=\
                                        \
                                        none

                                        In other words, amid all the compilations and recycled material, etc.,
                                        context has been changed (in various places) when it comes to source. I
                                        wonder, could Paul Twitchell have created "Eckankar" and at the same
                                        time given the source for all of his material? I noticed Kirpal Singh
                                        and others were very good at citing references and sharing what
                                        quote/saying came from who. So if Paul Twitchell ever chose to use
                                        passages and paragraphs from books, Did he always feel obligated to
                                        provide that information?

                                        As a promoter, I suspect the person wants to give credit to whatever
                                        they're promoting and not give more credit to "other products" instead.
                                        It makes sense (to me) that Paul Twitchell would "paint the name
                                        Eckankar" over so much material he had read (in so many words). Not
                                        only this, but it even appears probable that Paul Twitchell took
                                        liberty to respell and redefine words according to fit them in a new,
                                        and growing, Eckankar philosophy. Not only words, but names too!

                                        How extensive the promotion and PR campaign that created contemporary
                                        Eckankar teaching? In so many ways, it seems this is the part that
                                        doesn't agree with people. Not unless they knew from the beginning that
                                        information was not necessarily accurate and in some places embellished.

                                        embellish

                                        mid-14c., "to render beautiful," from O.Fr. embelliss-, stem of
                                        embellir "make beautiful, ornament," from em- (see en- (1)) + bel
                                        "beautiful," from L. bellus (see bene-). Meaning "dress up (a
                                        narration) with fictitious matter" is from mid-15c. Related:
                                        Embellished; embellishing.

                                        http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=embellished&search\
                                        \
                                        mode=none

                                        Reading through early Eckankar books I think common sense might tell a
                                        person that parts of the material was embellished. At the same time I
                                        also think people could naturally so much want the material to be true
                                        that they allow imagination to "make it so" and overrule common sense.

                                        Ever observe what happens when you're part of a group where countless
                                        individuals believe in things - through imagination - that aren't
                                        necessarily true? I mean, when you're one of the unbelievers and part
                                        of the minority who question whether so many imagined things are true?


                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                                        <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Sat, Sep 17, 2011 2:14 am
                                        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: "The Dark Side of ECKankar" -
                                        And More!

                                        Â
                                        Hello Etznab and All,
                                        This tells how Paul Twitchell
                                        was His Own Drum Beater:

                                        http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html

                                        What's interesting is that at age 27 (1935)
                                        Twitchell was saying that he had been
                                        to India (supposedly at age 15 to meet
                                        Rebazar for the first time, DOBTLEM).
                                        However, Klemp points out that Twitchell
                                        was doing another self-promotion, and
                                        was lying in order to get into Who's Who
                                        in Kentucky. Klemp states that Twitchell
                                        had never been all that far from home
                                        at age 27. Klemp seems to have stepped
                                        into a big pile of Twits mess. HK's
                                        statement contradicts what Twitchell
                                        revealed in Difficulties of Becoming the
                                        Living ECK Master circa July, 1971. This
                                        1971 date is, supposedly, long after Twitchell
                                        (the Mahanta) was was no longer "exaggerating"
                                        and "twisting facts." However, as Klemp
                                        has pointed out Twitchell was still lying
                                        and promoting his con up until his untimely
                                        and death in September, 1971.

                                        Prometheus

                                        etznab@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Almost didn't see this response because the e-mail bounced.
                                        >
                                        > Umm ... about the self-promotion, whatever, people can read about
                                        some of the history here.
                                        >
                                        > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html
                                        >
                                        > Check out 4th paragraph of article entitled: Paul's Seal of
                                        Approval.
                                        >
                                        > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                                        "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Hello Etznab and All,
                                        > > It is interesting that Twitchell
                                        > > has his Rebazar character (the
                                        > > "Master" who initiated him)
                                        > > indicate that there were 8 Planes
                                        > > just as Radhasomi and Ruhani
                                        > > Satsang have listed in "The Path
                                        > > of the Masters." Since Kirpal
                                        > > Singh, of Ruhani Satsang, was
                                        > > Paul's real life Master for ten years
                                        > > it's no wonder that this dogma was
                                        > > influential in the design of Eckankar.
                                        > >
                                        > > Of course, Twitchell was constantly
                                        > > tweaking, revising, and masking his
                                        > > religious con as time went by.
                                        > >
                                        > > The Anami Lok (10th Plane where
                                        > > "Sugmad" resides) didn't appear until
                                        > > later. Did Rebazar simply forget to
                                        > > mention this as well as the "Mahanta?"
                                        > > Did RT think that Paul needed to be
                                        > > spoon-fed and wasn't ready for this
                                        > > advanced "spiritual" info? No, not really.
                                        > > According to Twitchell he had been
                                        > > given the 12th and "final initiation"
                                        > > (to become LEM) back in 1951 by
                                        > > Rebazar while on his "2nd" visit to
                                        > > India. See, the timeline is off for this
                                        > > ekplanation to be taken seriously as
                                        > > well.
                                        > >
                                        > > Therefore, there is no rational excuse
                                        > > for these inconsistencies except to
                                        > > admit that the "rascal" Twitchell was,
                                        > > once again, "exaggerating" and "twisting
                                        > > facts" as even Klemp has described
                                        > > and said of him. Klemp, years ago,
                                        > > had to admit that Twitchell was a self-
                                        > > promoter and did or said whatever
                                        > > he needed to do ("By Any Means Necessary")
                                        > > in order to get Eckankar off the ground.
                                        > >
                                        > > This is why Klemp, at first, had a
                                        > > difficult job of explaining Twitchell's
                                        > > inconsistencies and needed to keep
                                        > > Eckists confused, busy, and off-balance.
                                        > > Now, Eckists are so brainwashed that
                                        > > Klemp can say whatever in his simple
                                        > > minded redundant versions of feel-good
                                        > > New Age spirituality.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Prometheus
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > etznab wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar
                                        Tarzs
                                        > > mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme.
                                        Check the
                                        > > index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with
                                        the Master.
                                        > >
                                        > > The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless
                                        region,
                                        > > [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called
                                        THE FACE OF
                                        > > GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying:
                                        [Quoting]
                                        > > "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the
                                        light of
                                        > > God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes
                                        could not look
                                        > > upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean
                                        of Love
                                        > > and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return
                                        in time."
                                        > > (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)
                                        > >
                                        > > Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in
                                        the House
                                        > > of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens.
                                        Ye cannot
                                        > > go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with
                                        my divine
                                        > > self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in
                                        the divine
                                        > > cause!"
                                        > >
                                        > > Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the
                                        Master, has
                                        > > Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting
                                        snippet]:
                                        > >
                                        > > "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in
                                        a
                                        > > mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
                                        > > attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
                                        > > "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
                                        after
                                        > > this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul
                                        reaches
                                        > > the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or
                                        the SUGMAD,
                                        > > the supreme LORD of all that exists."
                                        > >
                                        > > http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html
                                        > >
                                        > > Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the
                                        description
                                        > > slightly:
                                        > >
                                        > > "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the
                                        Sat Nam in
                                        > > a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in
                                        all Sat
                                        > > Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the
                                        three
                                        > > remaining known planes.
                                        > >
                                        > > "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha,
                                        and
                                        > > after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam
                                        Purusha, or
                                        > > lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region
                                        of the
                                        > > nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first
                                        you know
                                        > > about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the
                                        Divine.
                                        > >
                                        > > "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."
                                        > >
                                        > > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                        > >
                                        > > Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is
                                        illustrated (by
                                        > > Paul Twitchell) slightly different.
                                        > >
                                        > > "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam
                                        Lok.
                                        > > Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the
                                        end of its
                                        > > journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the
                                        supreme
                                        > > lord of all that exists."
                                        > >
                                        > > http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html
                                        > >
                                        > > The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok,
                                        Alak Lok,
                                        > > Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with
                                        Ocean of
                                        > > Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip
                                        mention of
                                        > > Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.
                                        > >
                                        > > In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master,
                                        Introduction to
                                        > > Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes
                                        similarly, and
                                        > > in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain
                                        sections from
                                        > > The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:
                                        > >
                                        > > "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit
                                        is
                                        > > expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal,
                                        Nirala,
                                        > > Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
                                        > > Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country
                                        > >
                                        > > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                        > >
                                        > > "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many
                                        words, such
                                        > > as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala,
                                        Anami, Agam,
                                        > > Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar,
                                        Parameshwar,
                                        > > Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters
                                        > >
                                        > > http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html
                                        > >
                                        > > Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent
                                        from the
                                        > > Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR
                                        vs.
                                        > > Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian
                                        Johnson's book,
                                        > > The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The
                                        Far
                                        > > Country, by at least three decades!
                                        > >
                                        > > Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word,
                                        trademarked
                                        > > it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is
                                        somehow more
                                        > > than a paraphrase.
                                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.