Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: "The Dark Side of ECKankar"

Expand Messages
  • etznab@aol.com
    A lot of religious dogma consists of legends, myths and fables. IMO. Any fables included in the Eckankar dogma prior to the current leadership could be hard to
    Message 1 of 24 , Feb 12, 2011
      A lot of religious dogma consists of legends,
      myths and fables. IMO.

      Any fables included in the Eckankar dogma
      prior to the current leadership could be hard
      to extract from official dogma. IMO. Granted
      they would be well known via books & talks
      over the years. And they could be believed -
      even literally - by hundreds, or thousands of
      people.

      Here is something the current leader said in
      the early 1980's after becoming the L.E.M.

      "Paul [Paul Twitchell] encouraged people to
      read The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad and make their
      own study. He never said to take the words as
      holy, as the last word. You take the words and
      check out the teachings from within. You ask:
      Does this work for me or doesn't it? You have
      to know. [....]"

      http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/writings.html#ideal

      This was around the time where Harold Klemp
      started talking about Death of an Ideal.

      If a person turns to the introduction section for
      The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, Vol. 1, they can read
      what Paul Twitchell said, compare it with what
      Harold Klemp said, and judge for theirself.

      IMO, fables abound in the Eckankar writings.
      Even in the Shariyat. The challenge comes if
      a person wants to know fact from fiction. The
      creator, author necessary to determine where
      it came from.

      Paul Twitchell was already deceased by the
      time I ever heard of Eckankar. And after him
      Darwin Gross was sent packing (iow). The
      wife of them both is where? I don't know. So
      the people who originally crafted the legends,
      myth, fables, etc., into "Eckankar" writings
      (and those who knew about the crafting) are
      not easy to come by, if you ask me. Neither
      are the original manuscripts and early books
      by Paul Twitchell & Eckankar.

      This is what is necessary, though, for a true
      record of fabrications (IMO). And even after
      the eye-witnesses, or those in the know are
      summoned, things would depend on whether
      they told the truth about what they know!

      Will it ever happen? Will religions (including
      "Eckankar") admit where the fictional parts
      of their teachings came from? Separating
      fact from fiction (with clarity), for the benefit
      of all members who desire the truth? Will we
      ever see the old original manuscripts?

      What happens when the "creators" - and no
      matter who they are - What happens when
      some of the material was borrowed from an-
      other source? Another who borrowed it from
      another before them? And on and on? with
      each writer / religion changing the story at
      will? How does locate the truth in that case?
      Via imagination? :) :) :)

      So not all of the stories are traceable to orig-
      inal sources. IMO. However, many of them
      are. Especially considering a young vs. old
      religion.

      Add to this all of the writers adding more
      "fabulous" material to the history of religion,
      the spin-off groups, etc. etc. and it becomes
      a real miasma.






      -----Original Message-----
      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
      <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:27 am
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: "The Dark Side of ECKankar"

       
      Hello and welcome to the group,

      First, I don't believe in demonic possession.
      This link was put up because it's another
      perspective of Eckankar. Take it with a grain
      of salt. But, the article does bring up some
      interesting topics and perspectives.

      For one thing it mentions that Darwin Gross
      was Klemp's (our) Master for ten years and
      yet his name is/was forbidden to speak. Plus,
      Klemp never mentioned Gross' death, although,
      he was an ECK Master, passed Harry the Rod,
      and was the 972nd (2nd) LEM, thus, making
      HK the 973rd (3rd) LEM.

      Anyway, why pick and choose this one article?
      How about the other Messages and dialogue?
      Did you read the FILES or look at the other LINKS?

      When you've looked at a few these other sources
      of information perhaps you can pose some questions
      pertaining to what we've written or commented upon?

      BTW-Mahanta means "missionary head." It was
      an obscure word that Twit found and decided
      to use for his newly created title.

      I didn't read the entire article of "The Dark Side
      of Eckankar" because much of it, IMO, is some
      sort of a fanatical exaggeration. Eckankar is
      merely a fraud and another religious scam for
      weak minded individuals and needs no "demonizing."
      The Truth is Klemp's real enemy, but who can
      disprove religious B.S. when people desperately
      need to believe. Everyone needs hope, but religions
      abuse and distort for profit and power.

      What do you think of that Negative Atom/Battery
      excuse as to why females can't become the LEM?
      Isn't this another silly excuse to keep women in
      their place? Sure! And, yet, look at how stupid this
      ekplanation is... but it's accepted. What else is a
      lie? Actually, everything!

      Prometheus

      Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
      >
      > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those
      of you who are
      > searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for
      sharing your
      > findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the
      "light" of critical
      > thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar. I am
      not here to
      > defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues. We are
      all
      > affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
      have allot to
      > bring to the table.
      >  
      > I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique
      used in this paper
      > called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links"
      in this web
      > site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of
      challenge because I'd
      > raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this
      paper as
      > well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be
      painted with
      > complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of
      critical
      > thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being
      completely objective.
      > For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack
      ECKankar in this
      > paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they
      originated.
      >  
      > I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure
      is overdo
      > within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is
      based on the
      > facts. I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I
      don't think
      > the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within
      one religious
      > belief system and exchange them for another in the name of
      critical thinking. Do
      > you?
    • prometheus_973
      Hello Etznab and All, The problem with what Klemp said early on about interpreting the Shariyat for yourself, on a Soul level I suppose, is that this changed
      Message 2 of 24 , Feb 12, 2011
        Hello Etznab and All,
        The problem with what Klemp said
        early on about interpreting the Shariyat
        for yourself, on a Soul level I suppose,
        is that this changed over the years.
        It doesn't matter if you pick and choose
        what works for you because that's not
        how it's done anymore. These are "Holy
        Books" and one can't rewrite or reinterpret
        what an ECK Master wrote unless you
        are an ECK Master... Catch-22! Klemp,
        today, has to approve, in writing
        or in a talk, what anyone can believe
        or say officially. Everything, now, is
        regulated with Guidelines including
        EWS topics.

        ECKists can't share their dreams if that
        dream would contradict EK Dogma or
        (seemingly) challenge HK's authority
        or his opinions etc. Look at what happened
        to Graham. He had a dream where a
        Silent One allowed him to hold the Rod
        of ECK Power. This infuriated Klemp and
        Graham was demoted to a 1st Initiate
        and Ford was disciplined for bringing
        this matter to Klemp's attention in the
        first place. However, Klemp has always
        had a temper and been a poor sport
        and has found it difficult to let go of
        anger. This is why HK never forgave
        Darwin and didn't mention his death.
        Even to this day Klemp can't deal with
        his anger and tends to hold onto grudges.

        What's really amusing is that Klemp took
        the bait in regards to Graham and over-
        reacted as Ford surmised he would. If
        Klemp had just ignored it or said that
        Graham was mistaken with what had
        happened or that the "Rod" was a mock
        up etc. or was a symbol of something else
        blah blah blah then that would have been
        the end of it. Plus, Graham was a bit out-
        of-balance to begin with so no harm no foul.
        But, that's not how it played out because
        Klemp is a Spiritual fraud and conman much
        like his Christian counterparts are of course.

        Prometheus

        etznab wrote:

        A lot of religious dogma consists of legends,
        myths and fables. IMO.

        Any fables included in the Eckankar dogma
        prior to the current leadership could be hard
        to extract from official dogma. IMO. Granted
        they would be well known via books & talks
        over the years. And they could be believed -
        even literally - by hundreds, or thousands of
        people.

        Here is something the current leader said in
        the early 1980's after becoming the L.E.M.

        "Paul [Paul Twitchell] encouraged people to
        read The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad and make their
        own study. He never said to take the words as
        holy, as the last word. You take the words and
        check out the teachings from within. You ask:
        Does this work for me or doesn't it? You have
        to know. [....]"

        http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/writings.html#ideal

        This was around the time where Harold Klemp
        started talking about Death of an Ideal.

        If a person turns to the introduction section for
        The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, Vol. 1, they can read
        what Paul Twitchell said, compare it with what
        Harold Klemp said, and judge for theirself.

        IMO, fables abound in the Eckankar writings.
        Even in the Shariyat. The challenge comes if
        a person wants to know fact from fiction. The
        creator, author necessary to determine where
        it came from.

        Paul Twitchell was already deceased by the
        time I ever heard of Eckankar. And after him
        Darwin Gross was sent packing (iow). The
        wife of them both is where? I don't know. So
        the people who originally crafted the legends,
        myth, fables, etc., into "Eckankar" writings
        (and those who knew about the crafting) are
        not easy to come by, if you ask me. Neither
        are the original manuscripts and early books
        by Paul Twitchell & Eckankar.

        This is what is necessary, though, for a true
        record of fabrications (IMO). And even after
        the eye-witnesses, or those in the know are
        summoned, things would depend on whether
        they told the truth about what they know!

        Will it ever happen? Will religions (including
        "Eckankar") admit where the fictional parts
        of their teachings came from? Separating
        fact from fiction (with clarity), for the benefit
        of all members who desire the truth? Will we
        ever see the old original manuscripts?

        What happens when the "creators" - and no
        matter who they are - What happens when
        some of the material was borrowed from an-
        other source? Another who borrowed it from
        another before them? And on and on? with
        each writer / religion changing the story at
        will? How does locate the truth in that case?
        Via imagination? :) :) :)

        So not all of the stories are traceable to orig-
        inal sources. IMO. However, many of them
        are. Especially considering a young vs. old
        religion.

        Add to this all of the writers adding more
        "fabulous" material to the history of religion,
        the spin-off groups, etc. etc. and it becomes
        a real miasma.






        prometheus wrote:
        Hello and welcome to the group,

        First, I don't believe in demonic possession.
        This link was put up because it's another
        perspective of Eckankar. Take it with a grain
        of salt. But, the article does bring up some
        interesting topics and perspectives.

        For one thing it mentions that Darwin Gross
        was Klemp's (our) Master for ten years and
        yet his name is/was forbidden to speak. Plus,
        Klemp never mentioned Gross' death, although,
        he was an ECK Master, passed Harry the Rod,
        and was the 972nd (2nd) LEM, thus, making
        HK the 973rd (3rd) LEM.

        Anyway, why pick and choose this one article?
        How about the other Messages and dialogue?
        Did you read the FILES or look at the other LINKS?

        When you've looked at a few these other sources
        of information perhaps you can pose some questions
        pertaining to what we've written or commented upon?

        BTW-Mahanta means "missionary head." It was
        an obscure word that Twit found and decided
        to use for his newly created title.

        I didn't read the entire article of "The Dark Side
        of Eckankar" because much of it, IMO, is some
        sort of a fanatical exaggeration. Eckankar is
        merely a fraud and another religious scam for
        weak minded individuals and needs no "demonizing."
        The Truth is Klemp's real enemy, but who can
        disprove religious B.S. when people desperately
        need to believe. Everyone needs hope, but religions
        abuse and distort for profit and power.

        What do you think of that Negative Atom/Battery
        excuse as to why females can't become the LEM?
        Isn't this another silly excuse to keep women in
        their place? Sure! And, yet, look at how stupid this
        ekplanation is... but it's accepted. What else is a
        lie? Actually, everything!

        Prometheus

        Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
        >
        > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those
        of you who are
        > searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for
        sharing your
        > findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the
        "light"Â of critical
        > thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar. I am
        not here to
        > defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues. We are
        all
        > affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
        have allot to
        > bring to the table.
        > Â
        > I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique
        used in this paper
        > called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links"
        in this web
        > site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of
        challenge because I'd
        > raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this
        paper as
        > well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be
        painted with
        > complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of
        critical
        > thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being
        completely objective.
        > For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack
        ECKankar in this
        > paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they
        originated.
        > Â
        > I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure
        is overdo
        > within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is
        based on the
        > facts. I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I
        don't think
        > the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within
        one religious
        > belief system and exchange them for another in the name of
        critical thinking. Do
        > you?
      • dianastanley43
        Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from personal
        Message 3 of 24 , Feb 13, 2011
          Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time. If it is hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew and was their experience I also say.
          Diana Stanley

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Rosemarie Bucci <rblustar@...> wrote:
          >
          > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who are
          > searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
          > findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
          > thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar. I am not here to
          > defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues. We are all
          > affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we have allot to
          > bring to the table.
          >  
          > I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
          > called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
          > site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because I'd
          > raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
          > well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
          > complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
          > thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely objective.
          > For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
          > paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
          >  
          > I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
          > within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on the
          > facts. I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
          > the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
          > belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking. Do
          > you?
          >
          >
          >
          > ____________________________________________________________________________________
          > Looking for earth-friendly autos?
          > Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.
          > http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
          >
        • prometheus_973
          Hello Rosemarie, There will be no email debate or ekplanation of this article. I don t agree with it entirely, but there are real facts and evidence,
          Message 4 of 24 , Feb 13, 2011
            Hello Rosemarie,
            There will be no email debate or ekplanation
            of this article. I don't agree with it entirely,
            but there are real facts and evidence, elsewhere,
            that shows Eckankar is "dark and fear based."

            After all, Klemp was/is the real "Black Magician"
            versus Darwin Gross.

            Read Chapter 7 of "Soul Travelers of the Far
            Country," if you can find the book, and you
            will see Klemp's ego speaking and how that
            he repeatedly states that he worked in a Sound
            Proof Dark Room at the ESC. And, it was Klemp's
            idea for Darwin to meet with him, in private,
            in the Sound Proof Dark Room (in the photo
            department) where Klemp worked daily. Darwin
            "hesitated" [pg.409 Autobiography of a Modern
            Prophet] to meet there when Klemp suggested
            that they should talk in private in the Dark Room
            that was also Sound Proofed (by the last building
            owner). Thus, it was symbolic that the ECK (Light
            & Sound) was Not present during the discussion
            of Klemp's transition to become the 973rd LEM.
            It's absence, the ECK, was due to Klemp and Not
            to Darwin. Thus, Klemp was looking into the mirror
            when he, later, referred to Darwin as being the
            Black Magician. And, not being able to forgive
            Darwin for his imperfections, even after all of
            these years, is more proof that Klemp is holding
            onto Negativity and this is evidence that he is
            of the KAL and is a Liar, Trickster, Deceiver,
            and, thus, a Black Magician!

            Most of the "fear" inside Eckankar comes via
            the RESA structure. ECKists fear that they can
            be Black Listed on Initiations by giving their
            real opinions and impressions of Klemp's
            articles and of the strict Guidelines they are
            to follow without question. They can't criticize
            (even constructively) because this is seen as
            negativity and that is of the KAL. Except, they
            forget, the KAL is the ruler of the Lower Planes
            (assigned by Sugmad) and Eckankar is a 1st
            Physical Plane religion/organization and is
            based upon, written, Mental Plane books,
            talks, rules & laws, guidelines, discourses,
            etc.

            Plus, "questions" are also discouraged as well.
            ECKists are to take it to the "inner" if they have
            too many questions, but the Catch-22 is that
            their "inner (Soul) answers" have to comply with
            the Lower Plane outer limitations of the EK Dogma,
            the scrutiny of the RESA, and of the EK Guidelines.
            Basically, an ECKist (Soul) cannot have an "official"
            opinion or a "valid" spiritual experience (that can
            be shared in public), unless, Klemp gives his verbal
            or written approval. As I pointed out before, look
            at what happened to Graham. He had a dream where
            a Silent One showed up and Graham HUed to verify
            that this was a Silent One and not an Astral entity
            playing tricks upon him. The Silent One passed the
            HU test and told Graham his name and then allowed
            Graham to hold the Rod of ECK Power to see how it
            felt. However, Klemp had a problem with this "dream"
            and felt threatened by this new Third Initiate. LOL!
            Thus, Klemp demoted Graham to a 1st Initiate for
            sharing his "dream" with others! Graham wasn't trying
            to take over or to challenge Klemp... it was just
            a dream! It wasn't his fault for having such a dream
            was it? What if other ECKists had a similar dream?
            Now, they all know Not to share it, don't they, for fear
            of being demoted!


            Prometheus

            starshine wrote:

            I recently read "The Dark Side of ECKankar" from your web site. Needless to say
            I was shocked because I am currently an ECKist. I'm interested to know why the
            information presented was concluded as it was in representation of something so
            dark, and fear based. These are pretty serious allegations.

            I'd like for you to reach out to me via email because I'm interested in further
            investigation but only if that is acceptable to you. I'd like to stick to the
            facts and evidence.
          • Rosemarie Bucci
            Hi Diana, I ve had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this path. I have read David Lane s book and Ford Johnson s book as
            Message 5 of 24 , Feb 14, 2011
              Hi Diana,
              I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth is truth and will always be the truth.
               
              I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember, we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
               
              I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must be brave and remain in truth.
              Thank you for getting back to me.
              Rosemarie


              TV dinner still cooling?
              Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.
            • prometheus_973
              Hello Rosemarie, I am a seeker of Truth as well. And yes, this article on The Dark Side of Eckankar is inaccurate, but there is a dark side to Eckankar and
              Message 6 of 24 , Feb 15, 2011
                Hello Rosemarie,
                I am a seeker of Truth as well.
                And yes, this article on "The Dark
                Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
                there is a dark side to Eckankar and
                there is also fear.

                I find it interesting that you've
                read (and I assume have contemplated
                upon) David Lane's research as well as
                Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
                and have, still, remained an ECKist.

                What happened to your "critical thinking?"
                Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
                you agree with some of it but not all of
                it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
                I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
                isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
                what they believe than any other religion
                they've found. Is that the case with you?

                I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
                book, threw it away (because of the bad
                vibes), and then placed themselves upon
                pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
                and talk Eckists through their doubts and
                concerns.

                You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
                not all truth is the same. That's why there
                are so many churches. People are social
                animals and tend to seek out others with
                similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
                to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
                to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
                and a test for Soul.

                I also got the impression that you don't
                participate much within the RESA structure.
                Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
                Do you know that you have to watch what
                you say? You've observed and learned that
                correct? You do care about being promoted
                to that next initiation right?

                Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
                take on the subjects that we've been discussing
                here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
                lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
                for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
                Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
                when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
                "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
                detectors just for his talk?

                You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues. 
                We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
                at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."

                BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
                read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?

                Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
                the table.

                Prometheus

                rosemarie wrote:
                Hi Diana,

                I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth is truth and will always be the truth.

                I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember, we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.

                I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must be brave and remain in truth.

                Thank you for getting back to me.
                Rosemarie


                dianastanley wrote:

                Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time. If it is hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew and was their experience I also say.

                Diana Stanley

                Rosemarie Bucci wrote:

                I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who are
                searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
                findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
                thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.

                I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues. 
                We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
                have allot to bring to the table.
                 
                I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
                called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
                site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because I'd
                raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
                well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
                complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
                thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely objective.
                For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
                paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
                 
                I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
                within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on the
                facts.

                I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
                the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
                belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking.
                Do you?
              • dianastanley43
                Rosemarie you are quite right. I started with Eckankar and ended up studing quantum Physics What I finally came to the conclusion of was if you were sitting in
                Message 7 of 24 , Feb 17, 2011
                  Rosemarie you are quite right. I started with Eckankar and ended up studing quantum Physics What I finally came to the conclusion of was if you were sitting in you living room you didn't need a spiritual path to find your living room. It has not been an easy journy as I was loath to give up the idea of the mystical and magical and I traveled many paths in the 30 yrs after leaving Eckankar. One day I read a quote that changed my belief system of years. "God did'nt create the universe God became the universe. It's interesting that when the time is right I might understand something that a few yrs earlier would not have ment anything.
                  Diana

                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Rosemarie Bucci <rblustar@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Diana,
                  > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this
                  > path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been
                  > to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that
                  > honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth
                  > is truth and will always be the truth.
                  >
                  >  
                  > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we
                  > follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching
                  > which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember,
                  > we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to
                  > bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
                  >
                  >  
                  > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts
                  > sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must
                  > be brave and remain in truth.
                  > Thank you for gettingback to me.
                  > Rosemarie
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ____________________________________________________________________________________
                  > It's here! Your new message!
                  > Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar.
                  > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/
                  >
                • Avonblue
                  Diana and All, I came to eckankar back in the 70 s because I felt religion was an abomination and the lure of free exploration of our spiritual self was truly
                  Message 8 of 24 , Feb 18, 2011
                    Diana and All,

                    I came to eckankar back in the 70's because I felt religion was an abomination and the lure of free exploration of our spiritual self was truly revolutionary. Eckankar eventually failed to be the magical mystical carpet ride it was purported to be but instead a rehash and reinvention of eastern and western mumbo jumbo recreated by a charlatan. I too have explored quantum physics and especially the advances in neuroscience over the past several years and have come to the belief that "spirituality" and for the that matter "god" is nothing more than misunderstood and undiscovered as of yet science.

                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "dianastanley43" <dianastanley43@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Rosemarie you are quite right. I started with Eckankar and ended up studing quantum Physics What I finally came to the conclusion of was if you were sitting in you living room you didn't need a spiritual path to find your living room. It has not been an easy journy as I was loath to give up the idea of the mystical and magical and I traveled many paths in the 30 yrs after leaving Eckankar. One day I read a quote that changed my belief system of years. "God did'nt create the universe God became the universe. It's interesting that when the time is right I might understand something that a few yrs earlier would not have ment anything.
                    > Diana
                    >
                    > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Rosemarie Bucci <rblustar@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hi Diana,
                    > > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this
                    > > path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been
                    > > to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that
                    > > honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth
                    > > is truth and will always be the truth.
                    > >
                    > >  
                    > > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we
                    > > follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching
                    > > which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember,
                    > > we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to
                    > > bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
                    > >
                    > >  
                    > > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts
                    > > sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must
                    > > be brave and remain in truth.
                    > > Thank you for gettingback to me.
                    > > Rosemarie
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ____________________________________________________________________________________
                    > > It's here! Your new message!
                    > > Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar.
                    > > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/
                    > >
                    >
                  • prometheus_973
                    Hello Avonblue and All, I was first introduced to the quantum physics/mechanics/ field theory scam via Maharishi of TM fame. Adam Dreamhealer and many other
                    Message 9 of 24 , Feb 21, 2011
                      Hello Avonblue and All,
                      I was first introduced to the
                      "quantum physics/mechanics/
                      field theory" scam via Maharishi
                      of TM fame. Adam Dreamhealer
                      and many other scammers have
                      used and abused this theory
                      to explain how their brand of
                      whatever works. I'm surprised
                      that Klemp hasn't used this hook
                      in order to combine science and
                      spirituality.

                      It is quite interesting how Klemp
                      gradually became "the" God/Mahanta.

                      And, even though he has stated,
                      "don't worship me" he has Eckists
                      stare at his picture and chant HU.

                      Plus, he has them dream of him
                      and beseech him with requests,
                      questions, help, protection, and
                      for healing. So, HK instructs Eckists
                      to pray to him (the Mahanta), but
                      says he's not to be worshipped.
                      How's that work? Of course he's
                      worshipped!

                      And, who or what is "worshipped" by
                      Eckists at ECK Worship Services (EWS)?
                      Is it the ECK? Klemp claims to be that
                      too, or is it the Mahanta or both?
                      So, on the "outer" Klemp is the leader
                      (LEM) of Eckankar and on the "inner"
                      he claims to be the ECK and the Mahanta.
                      But wouldn't he, also, be the ECK and
                      the Mahanta on the "outer" as well?
                      This is where/how Klemp tricks ECKists
                      into worshipping him. He's everything
                      and claims to be levels higher than the
                      God that other religions worship. Yet,
                      just like Twitchell fooled people, Klemp
                      does the same. Telling ECKists not to
                      worship him is a disclaimer so that he
                      can avoid responsibility.

                      It's really laughable that older ECKists
                      turned their backs on the religion of
                      their parents because "God" never answered
                      their prayers, etc. Now, they've substituted
                      Klemp for Jesus or Moses or who and what
                      ever. How stupid is that!

                      Strange that Sugmad isn't worshipped
                      at these EWS events and neither is God.
                      God is discussed some, but a real Eckist
                      knows that "God" is code for the Mahanta,
                      or the KAL, it depends. So, who/what is
                      worshipped? The ECK? That's Klemp too!
                      Klemp, in one way or the other is always
                      the main focus! Really, who does the Mahanta
                      look like? And, yet, do Eckists really think
                      about what they are really doing when they
                      worship, pray HU, contemplate upon, dream,
                      and beseech "the" Mahanta/ECK (Klemp)
                      for help? Apparently not!

                      Prometheus


                      Avonblue wrote:
                      Diana and All,

                      I came to eckankar back in the 70's because I felt religion was an abomination
                      and the lure of free exploration of our spiritual self was truly revolutionary.
                      Eckankar eventually failed to be the magical mystical carpet ride it was
                      purported to be but instead a rehash and reinvention of eastern and western
                      mumbo jumbo recreated by a charlatan. I too have explored quantum physics and
                      especially the advances in neuroscience over the past several years and have
                      come to the belief that "spirituality" and for the that matter "god" is nothing
                      more than misunderstood and undiscovered as of yet science.

                      dianastanley43"
                      dianastanley43@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Rosemarie you are quite right. I started with Eckankar and ended up studing
                      quantum Physics What I finally came to the conclusion of was if you were sitting
                      in you living room you didn't need a spiritual path to find your living room. It
                      has not been an easy journy as I was loath to give up the idea of the mystical
                      and magical and I traveled many paths in the 30 yrs after leaving Eckankar. One
                      day I read a quote that changed my belief system of years. "God did'nt create
                      the universe God became the universe. It's interesting that when the time is
                      right I might understand something that a few yrs earlier would not have ment
                      anything.
                      > Diana
                      >
                      Rosemarie Bucci <rblustar wrote:

                      Hi Diana,
                      I've had lots of experiences before
                      my journey into eckankar and while on
                      this path. I have read David Lane's book
                      and Ford Johnson's book as well.

                      I've been to eck satsangs, eck book
                      discussions and eck seminars also.
                      I agree that honesty is essential the
                      name of GOD on all levels.

                      I also understand that truth is truth
                      and will always be the truth.

                      I think it's important to remain open
                      and honest regardless of what path we
                      follow and to be there for one another
                      as much as we can. We are all searching
                      which is wonderful.

                      Therefore, we are not wrong in doing
                      so and let's remember, we all have each
                      other to try to put all this in perspective.
                      We have so much to bring to one another
                      on our many different levels of knowledge
                      and experience.

                      I know we'll get through this some day
                      and be stronger for it even if it hurts
                      sometimes. If we are to stand before
                      GOD and try to journey back to GOD,
                      we must be brave and remain in truth.



                      Prometheus: But there is no Truth
                      in Eckankar nor in any religion. It's
                      desperation, fear, lies, myth (stories),
                      imagination, pretend, and delusion!



                      Thank you for getting back to me.
                      Rosemarie
                    • dianastanley43
                      ... Diana
                      Message 10 of 24 , Feb 21, 2011
                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                        > Paul commissioned me to do a sculpture of him so the Eckist would have something to focus on,I quess it was supposed to compete with jesus on the cross, any way he died befor it was finished and the stature fell apart befor I could make a mold of it. I thought Paul destroyed when he died as a lot of hi's at the time felt that. Acually it was bad craftsmanship on my part. I have to say it was pretty neat, he was sitting on a stool looking holy.
                        Diana
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Hello Avonblue and All,
                        > I was first introduced to the
                        > "quantum physics/mechanics/
                        > field theory" scam via Maharishi
                        > of TM fame. Adam Dreamhealer
                        > and many other scammers have
                        > used and abused this theory
                        > to explain how their brand of
                        > whatever works. I'm surprised
                        > that Klemp hasn't used this hook
                        > in order to combine science and
                        > spirituality.
                        >
                        > It is quite interesting how Klemp
                        > gradually became "the" God/Mahanta.
                        >
                        > And, even though he has stated,
                        > "don't worship me" he has Eckists
                        > stare at his picture and chant HU.
                        >
                        > Plus, he has them dream of him
                        > and beseech him with requests,
                        > questions, help, protection, and
                        > for healing. So, HK instructs Eckists
                        > to pray to him (the Mahanta), but
                        > says he's not to be worshipped.
                        > How's that work? Of course he's
                        > worshipped!
                        >
                        > And, who or what is "worshipped" by
                        > Eckists at ECK Worship Services (EWS)?
                        > Is it the ECK? Klemp claims to be that
                        > too, or is it the Mahanta or both?
                        > So, on the "outer" Klemp is the leader
                        > (LEM) of Eckankar and on the "inner"
                        > he claims to be the ECK and the Mahanta.
                        > But wouldn't he, also, be the ECK and
                        > the Mahanta on the "outer" as well?
                        > This is where/how Klemp tricks ECKists
                        > into worshipping him. He's everything
                        > and claims to be levels higher than the
                        > God that other religions worship. Yet,
                        > just like Twitchell fooled people, Klemp
                        > does the same. Telling ECKists not to
                        > worship him is a disclaimer so that he
                        > can avoid responsibility.
                        >
                        > It's really laughable that older ECKists
                        > turned their backs on the religion of
                        > their parents because "God" never answered
                        > their prayers, etc. Now, they've substituted
                        > Klemp for Jesus or Moses or who and what
                        > ever. How stupid is that!
                        >
                        > Strange that Sugmad isn't worshipped
                        > at these EWS events and neither is God.
                        > God is discussed some, but a real Eckist
                        > knows that "God" is code for the Mahanta,
                        > or the KAL, it depends. So, who/what is
                        > worshipped? The ECK? That's Klemp too!
                        > Klemp, in one way or the other is always
                        > the main focus! Really, who does the Mahanta
                        > look like? And, yet, do Eckists really think
                        > about what they are really doing when they
                        > worship, pray HU, contemplate upon, dream,
                        > and beseech "the" Mahanta/ECK (Klemp)
                        > for help? Apparently not!
                        >
                        > Prometheus
                        >
                        >
                        > Avonblue wrote:
                        > Diana and All,
                        >
                        > I came to eckankar back in the 70's because I felt religion was an abomination
                        > and the lure of free exploration of our spiritual self was truly revolutionary.
                        > Eckankar eventually failed to be the magical mystical carpet ride it was
                        > purported to be but instead a rehash and reinvention of eastern and western
                        > mumbo jumbo recreated by a charlatan. I too have explored quantum physics and
                        > especially the advances in neuroscience over the past several years and have
                        > come to the belief that "spirituality" and for the that matter "god" is nothing
                        > more than misunderstood and undiscovered as of yet science.
                        >
                        > dianastanley43"
                        > dianastanley43@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Rosemarie you are quite right. I started with Eckankar and ended up studing
                        > quantum Physics What I finally came to the conclusion of was if you were sitting
                        > in you living room you didn't need a spiritual path to find your living room. It
                        > has not been an easy journy as I was loath to give up the idea of the mystical
                        > and magical and I traveled many paths in the 30 yrs after leaving Eckankar. One
                        > day I read a quote that changed my belief system of years. "God did'nt create
                        > the universe God became the universe. It's interesting that when the time is
                        > right I might understand something that a few yrs earlier would not have ment
                        > anything.
                        > > Diana
                        > >
                        > Rosemarie Bucci <rblustar wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi Diana,
                        > I've had lots of experiences before
                        > my journey into eckankar and while on
                        > this path. I have read David Lane's book
                        > and Ford Johnson's book as well.
                        >
                        > I've been to eck satsangs, eck book
                        > discussions and eck seminars also.
                        > I agree that honesty is essential the
                        > name of GOD on all levels.
                        >
                        > I also understand that truth is truth
                        > and will always be the truth.
                        >
                        > I think it's important to remain open
                        > and honest regardless of what path we
                        > follow and to be there for one another
                        > as much as we can. We are all searching
                        > which is wonderful.
                        >
                        > Therefore, we are not wrong in doing
                        > so and let's remember, we all have each
                        > other to try to put all this in perspective.
                        > We have so much to bring to one another
                        > on our many different levels of knowledge
                        > and experience.
                        >
                        > I know we'll get through this some day
                        > and be stronger for it even if it hurts
                        > sometimes. If we are to stand before
                        > GOD and try to journey back to GOD,
                        > we must be brave and remain in truth.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Prometheus: But there is no Truth
                        > in Eckankar nor in any religion. It's
                        > desperation, fear, lies, myth (stories),
                        > imagination, pretend, and delusion!
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Thank you for getting back to me.
                        > Rosemarie
                        >
                      • starshine917
                        Hello prometheus_973: Remember me? Wow, it s so weird that I d be writing to you now….exactly, one year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I
                        Message 11 of 24 , Sep 4, 2011
                          Hello prometheus_973:
                          Remember me? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writing to you now….exactly, one year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I didn't plan it like this but somehow it just worked out this way.

                          I recently left Eckankar. And, you were right….I read David Lane's paper as well as Ford Johnson's "Confessions of a God Seeker" And, for some reason at that time I remained in the group tying to focus on the so-called positive side of the Eckankar, the hypnotic rederick that goes nowhere while ignoring the facts. I then started to take a good look at Harold…looked into his "dark" eyes and listened to his figure of monotone speak and I realized it was very hypnotic, and at the same time very inviting. I wondered who or what was inside of those dark eyes….And they seem to always come as "the light". Yes, the "angel of light".

                          I was in a satsang at that time and I found it disturbing more and more that his same picture of himself, which by the way never changes, the one and only picture that has to be present at all Eckankar meetings was never questioned by it's members. All the books we studied were written by him and only him !!! And how some members were "higher" than others depending on their "initiation" number, even if these people knew absolutely nothing except what was written in the books of Eckankar. Some of these people seemed to have anger issues too which didn't seem to fit the spiritual portrait of a saint they painted. I started to feel uncomfortable around these people cause they seemed more and more to me like mind-controlled slaves. And, they too could see that I was thinking and starting to pull away because I no longer looked to them without question, with blind authority.

                          So, it wasn't a good mix to say the very least. I finally had it out with one of the members and I realized that I already left…In my heart, I choose to follow truth and I also realized that that in Eckankar, I was being deceived. And I realized that I couldn't have it both ways. I had to pick my convictions and go with them. After all, why would I go against my own self, and what was in my heart ?

                          In Eckankar it is taught to open and follow your heart but yet, if you dare open your mind and begin to ask challenging questions, you're in trouble because these people think the Mahanta in Eckankar is above all else and should never be questioned, and your heart should be open to "him", the self appointed master, Harold Klemp. Even if the members of Eckankar are not honest with themselves enough to admit it consciously. On a subconscious level, they know better !!!

                          The shame of it all is that this deception is done in the name of an unconditional open heart to give love, which it is true, a part of GOD's flow but where's the truth ? What happened to that part of GOD ??? I guess it got lost in the sea of love…


                          Hello prometheus_973;
                          Remember me ? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writ

                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hello Rosemarie,
                          > I am a seeker of Truth as well.
                          > And yes, this article on "The Dark
                          > Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
                          > there is a dark side to Eckankar and
                          > there is also fear.
                          >
                          > I find it interesting that you've
                          > read (and I assume have contemplated
                          > upon) David Lane's research as well as
                          > Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
                          > and have, still, remained an ECKist.
                          >
                          > What happened to your "critical thinking?"
                          > Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
                          > you agree with some of it but not all of
                          > it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
                          > I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
                          > isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
                          > what they believe than any other religion
                          > they've found. Is that the case with you?
                          >
                          > I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
                          > book, threw it away (because of the bad
                          > vibes), and then placed themselves upon
                          > pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
                          > and talk Eckists through their doubts and
                          > concerns.
                          >
                          > You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
                          > not all truth is the same. That's why there
                          > are so many churches. People are social
                          > animals and tend to seek out others with
                          > similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
                          > to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
                          > to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
                          > and a test for Soul.
                          >
                          > I also got the impression that you don't
                          > participate much within the RESA structure.
                          > Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
                          > Do you know that you have to watch what
                          > you say? You've observed and learned that
                          > correct? You do care about being promoted
                          > to that next initiation right?
                          >
                          > Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
                          > take on the subjects that we've been discussing
                          > here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
                          > lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
                          > for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
                          > Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
                          > when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
                          > "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
                          > detectors just for his talk?
                          >
                          > You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues. 
                          > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
                          > at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."
                          >
                          > BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
                          > read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?
                          >
                          > Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
                          > the table.
                          >
                          > Prometheus
                          >
                          > rosemarie wrote:
                          > Hi Diana,
                          >
                          > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth is truth and will always be the truth.
                          >
                          > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember, we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
                          >
                          > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must be brave and remain in truth.
                          >
                          > Thank you for getting back to me.
                          > Rosemarie
                          >
                          >
                          > dianastanley wrote:
                          >
                          > Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time. If it is hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew and was their experience I also say.
                          >
                          > Diana Stanley
                          >
                          > Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
                          >
                          > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who are
                          > searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
                          > findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
                          > thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.
                          >
                          > I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues. 
                          > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
                          > have allot to bring to the table.
                          >  
                          > I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
                          > called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
                          > site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because I'd
                          > raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
                          > well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
                          > complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
                          > thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely objective.
                          > For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
                          > paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
                          >  
                          > I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
                          > within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on the
                          > facts.
                          >
                          > I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
                          > the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
                          > belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking.
                          > Do you?
                          >
                        • prometheus_973
                          Hello All, Just thought I d share some additional comments to what Starshine wrote. starshine917 wrote: Hello prometheus_973: Remember me? Wow, it s so weird
                          Message 12 of 24 , Sep 11, 2011
                            Hello All,
                            Just thought I'd share some
                            additional comments to what
                            Starshine wrote.

                            starshine917 wrote:
                            Hello prometheus_973:
                            Remember me? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writing to you now….exactly, one
                            year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I didn't plan it like
                            this but somehow it just worked out this way.


                            ME: Yes, it takes awhile for the
                            realization to occur and sink in
                            even after one decides to look
                            for and analyze it via critical
                            thinking while giving HK's/PT's
                            redundant words a litmus test
                            for truthiness.


                            I recently left Eckankar. And, you were right….I read David Lane's paper as well
                            as Ford Johnson's "Confessions of a God Seeker" And, for some reason at that
                            time I remained in the group tying to focus on the so-called positive side of
                            the Eckankar, the hypnotic rederick that goes nowhere while ignoring the facts.
                            I then started to take a good look at Harold…looked into his "dark" eyes and
                            listened to his figure of monotone speak and I realized it was very hypnotic,
                            and at the same time very inviting. I wondered who or what was inside of those
                            dark eyes….And they seem to always come as "the light". Yes, the "angel of
                            light".


                            ME: Klemp is no angel of light! He spreads
                            darkness and delusion while denying Eckists
                            their true nature as Soul. He gives (hope),
                            promises (higher plane initiations), and then
                            takes it all away (hope of ever getting beyond
                            the 7th initiation while in this lifetime, unless,
                            one pretends or imagines they are higher
                            via vanity and frustration).


                            I was in a satsang at that time and I found it disturbing more and more that his
                            same picture of himself, which by the way never changes, the one and only
                            picture that has to be present at all Eckankar meetings was never questioned by
                            it's members. All the books we studied were written by him and only him !!! And
                            how some members were "higher" than others depending on their "initiation"
                            number, even if these people knew absolutely nothing except what was written in
                            the books of Eckankar. Some of these people seemed to have anger issues too
                            which didn't seem to fit the spiritual portrait of a saint they painted. I
                            started to feel uncomfortable around these people cause they seemed more and
                            more to me like mind-controlled slaves. And, they too could see that I was
                            thinking and starting to pull away because I no longer looked to them without
                            question, with blind authority.


                            ME: Yes, that more youthful looking
                            Official Picture of Klemp's is a vain act,
                            but is never questioned because to do
                            so would get one Black Listed on initiations.
                            Those longtime Eckists who are part
                            of the RESA Hierarchy know what I'm
                            saying. Some H.I.s are fearful/cautious
                            of the spies that report to the RESA and
                            only share certain things (anti-Guideline
                            comments, etc.) around those H.I.s they
                            can trust.


                            BTW- There are some books, that Klemp
                            has approved of, written by non-Eck
                            authors that Eckists can read. However,
                            the Eckist must always focus upon the
                            ECK or Mahanta when reading these
                            books and, thus, give up free, unfettered,
                            thought. Some of these books are
                            recommended to those in leadership
                            positions and are business oriented.



                            So, it wasn't a good mix to say the very least. I finally had it out with one of
                            the members and I realized that I already left…In my heart, I choose to follow
                            truth and I also realized that that in Eckankar, I was being deceived. And I
                            realized that I couldn't have it both ways. I had to pick my convictions and go
                            with them. After all, why would I go against my own self, and what was in my
                            heart?


                            ME: It's the easy way to place an
                            authority figure on a shelf higher
                            than yourself. Less thinking and
                            effort is involved when blind trust
                            takes over. It's lazy but that's what
                            people do. Look at how we allow
                            the politicians to say and do as
                            they please without taking responsibility.
                            With Klemp, it's always the chela's
                            fault and never his own! He slowed-
                            down initiations in 1985, but doesn't
                            need to explain why these haven't
                            sped up because he answers to
                            nobody else, except, Sugmad right?


                            In Eckankar it is taught to open and follow your heart but yet, if you dare open
                            your mind and begin to ask challenging questions, you're in trouble because
                            these people think the Mahanta in Eckankar is above all else and should never be
                            questioned, and your heart should be open to "him", the self appointed master,
                            Harold Klemp. Even if the members of Eckankar are not honest with themselves
                            enough to admit it consciously. On a subconscious level, they know better !!!

                            ME: That following your heart
                            thing is more about the Astral
                            Heart Chakra... which is lower
                            than the Third Eye or Tisra Til!
                            Why didn't Klemp at least use
                            the (Astral) Crown Chakra when
                            having Eckists HU? After 30 years
                            and HK still has Eckists HUing
                            and focusing upon the 6th,
                            Third Eye, Astral Chakra versus
                            the 7th Crown Chakra!


                            The shame of it all is that this deception is done in the name of an
                            unconditional open heart to give love, which it is true, a part of GOD's flow
                            but where's the truth ? What happened to that part of GOD ??? I guess it got
                            lost in the sea of love…


                            ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                            "common language" but it's not
                            quite true. ECK is not a common
                            word and neither is Mahanta.
                            And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                            to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                            others worship or think he is speaking
                            about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                            use the word GOD when it's not
                            who or what they are referring
                            to. It's like comparing apples
                            to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                            start out, and are trained, to be
                            deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                            fact alone makes Eckankar look
                            very cult like. But, why the lie?
                            The "common language" excuse
                            doesn't hold water but Eckists
                            can't question this underhanded
                            practice or else they can have
                            their position taken away and
                            be Black Listed and shunned.

                            Prometheus



                            Hello prometheus_973;
                            Remember me ? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writ


                            <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hello Rosemarie,
                            > I am a seeker of Truth as well.
                            > And yes, this article on "The Dark
                            > Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
                            > there is a dark side to Eckankar and
                            > there is also fear.
                            >
                            > I find it interesting that you've
                            > read (and I assume have contemplated
                            > upon) David Lane's research as well as
                            > Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
                            > and have, still, remained an ECKist.
                            >
                            > What happened to your "critical thinking?"
                            > Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
                            > you agree with some of it but not all of
                            > it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
                            > I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
                            > isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
                            > what they believe than any other religion
                            > they've found. Is that the case with you?
                            >
                            > I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
                            > book, threw it away (because of the bad
                            > vibes), and then placed themselves upon
                            > pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
                            > and talk Eckists through their doubts and
                            > concerns.
                            >
                            > You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
                            > not all truth is the same. That's why there
                            > are so many churches. People are social
                            > animals and tend to seek out others with
                            > similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
                            > to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
                            > to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
                            > and a test for Soul.
                            >
                            > I also got the impression that you don't
                            > participate much within the RESA structure.
                            > Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
                            > Do you know that you have to watch what
                            > you say? You've observed and learned that
                            > correct? You do care about being promoted
                            > to that next initiation right?
                            >
                            > Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
                            > take on the subjects that we've been discussing
                            > here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
                            > lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
                            > for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
                            > Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
                            > when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
                            > "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
                            > detectors just for his talk?
                            >
                            > You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                            > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
                            > at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."
                            >
                            > BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
                            > read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?
                            >
                            > Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
                            > the table.
                            >
                            > Prometheus
                            >
                            > rosemarie wrote:
                            > Hi Diana,
                            >
                            > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this
                            path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been
                            to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that
                            honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth
                            is truth and will always be the truth.
                            >
                            > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we
                            follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching
                            which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember,
                            we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to
                            bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
                            >
                            > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts
                            sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must
                            be brave and remain in truth.
                            >
                            > Thank you for getting back to me.
                            > Rosemarie
                            >
                            >
                            > dianastanley wrote:
                            >
                            > Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any
                            direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from
                            personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time. If it is
                            hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew and was their
                            experience I also say.
                            >
                            > Diana Stanley
                            >
                            > Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
                            >
                            > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who
                            are searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
                            findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
                            thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.
                            >
                            I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                            We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
                            have allot to bring to the table.
                            >
                            I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
                            called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
                            site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because
                            I'd raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
                            well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
                            complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
                            thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely
                            objective.

                            For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
                            paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
                            >
                            I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
                            within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on
                            the facts.
                            >
                            I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
                            the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
                            belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking.
                            Do you?
                          • postekcon
                            Re ... ME: Klemp likes to say he uses common language but it s not quite true. ECK is not a common word and neither is Mahanta. And, the God (Sugmad) he
                            Message 13 of 24 , Sep 11, 2011
                              Re
                              >>>
                              ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                              "common language" but it's not
                              quite true. ECK is not a common
                              word and neither is Mahanta.
                              And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                              to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                              others worship or think he is speaking
                              about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                              use the word GOD when it's not
                              who or what they are referring
                              to. It's like comparing apples
                              to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                              start out, and are trained, to be
                              deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                              fact alone makes Eckankar look
                              very cult like. But, why the lie?
                              The "common language" excuse
                              doesn't hold water but Eckists
                              can't question this underhanded
                              practice or else they can have
                              their position taken away and
                              be Black Listed and shunned.
                              >>>


                              For the past ten years, I have observed this pattern.

                              Hard working HIs (50-70yrs plus) busy putting on Intro Talks, occasionally enrolling a new recruit to ekult.

                              However, within a year or two, the new recruit leaves ekult as nothing makes sense! Of course, the HIs, unable to look at either themselves or ekult, always blame the new recruit with comments such as lack of unfoldment etc!

                              For the new recruit, the reason nothing makes sense, I've observed, is thus. The HIs bring the new recruit into Paul Twitchell/Darwin Gross ekult; the ekult into which they themselved were enrolled. Now this version of ekult promised it had the tools for self/god realization in this lifetime etc. However, several MW (Mystic World) issues later, the new recruit comes to understand these 'good people' lied to them!
                              -Postekcon


                              In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hello All,
                              > Just thought I'd share some
                              > additional comments to what
                              > Starshine wrote.
                              >
                              > starshine917 wrote:
                              > Hello prometheus_973:
                              > Remember me? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writing to you now….exactly, one
                              > year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I didn't plan it like
                              > this but somehow it just worked out this way.
                              >
                              >
                              > ME: Yes, it takes awhile for the
                              > realization to occur and sink in
                              > even after one decides to look
                              > for and analyze it via critical
                              > thinking while giving HK's/PT's
                              > redundant words a litmus test
                              > for truthiness.
                              >
                              >
                              > I recently left Eckankar. And, you were right….I read David Lane's paper as well
                              > as Ford Johnson's "Confessions of a God Seeker" And, for some reason at that
                              > time I remained in the group tying to focus on the so-called positive side of
                              > the Eckankar, the hypnotic rederick that goes nowhere while ignoring the facts.
                              > I then started to take a good look at Harold…looked into his "dark" eyes and
                              > listened to his figure of monotone speak and I realized it was very hypnotic,
                              > and at the same time very inviting. I wondered who or what was inside of those
                              > dark eyes….And they seem to always come as "the light". Yes, the "angel of
                              > light".
                              >
                              >
                              > ME: Klemp is no angel of light! He spreads
                              > darkness and delusion while denying Eckists
                              > their true nature as Soul. He gives (hope),
                              > promises (higher plane initiations), and then
                              > takes it all away (hope of ever getting beyond
                              > the 7th initiation while in this lifetime, unless,
                              > one pretends or imagines they are higher
                              > via vanity and frustration).
                              >
                              >
                              > I was in a satsang at that time and I found it disturbing more and more that his
                              > same picture of himself, which by the way never changes, the one and only
                              > picture that has to be present at all Eckankar meetings was never questioned by
                              > it's members. All the books we studied were written by him and only him !!! And
                              > how some members were "higher" than others depending on their "initiation"
                              > number, even if these people knew absolutely nothing except what was written in
                              > the books of Eckankar. Some of these people seemed to have anger issues too
                              > which didn't seem to fit the spiritual portrait of a saint they painted. I
                              > started to feel uncomfortable around these people cause they seemed more and
                              > more to me like mind-controlled slaves. And, they too could see that I was
                              > thinking and starting to pull away because I no longer looked to them without
                              > question, with blind authority.
                              >
                              >
                              > ME: Yes, that more youthful looking
                              > Official Picture of Klemp's is a vain act,
                              > but is never questioned because to do
                              > so would get one Black Listed on initiations.
                              > Those longtime Eckists who are part
                              > of the RESA Hierarchy know what I'm
                              > saying. Some H.I.s are fearful/cautious
                              > of the spies that report to the RESA and
                              > only share certain things (anti-Guideline
                              > comments, etc.) around those H.I.s they
                              > can trust.
                              >
                              >
                              > BTW- There are some books, that Klemp
                              > has approved of, written by non-Eck
                              > authors that Eckists can read. However,
                              > the Eckist must always focus upon the
                              > ECK or Mahanta when reading these
                              > books and, thus, give up free, unfettered,
                              > thought. Some of these books are
                              > recommended to those in leadership
                              > positions and are business oriented.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > So, it wasn't a good mix to say the very least. I finally had it out with one of
                              > the members and I realized that I already left…In my heart, I choose to follow
                              > truth and I also realized that that in Eckankar, I was being deceived. And I
                              > realized that I couldn't have it both ways. I had to pick my convictions and go
                              > with them. After all, why would I go against my own self, and what was in my
                              > heart?
                              >
                              >
                              > ME: It's the easy way to place an
                              > authority figure on a shelf higher
                              > than yourself. Less thinking and
                              > effort is involved when blind trust
                              > takes over. It's lazy but that's what
                              > people do. Look at how we allow
                              > the politicians to say and do as
                              > they please without taking responsibility.
                              > With Klemp, it's always the chela's
                              > fault and never his own! He slowed-
                              > down initiations in 1985, but doesn't
                              > need to explain why these haven't
                              > sped up because he answers to
                              > nobody else, except, Sugmad right?
                              >
                              >
                              > In Eckankar it is taught to open and follow your heart but yet, if you dare open
                              > your mind and begin to ask challenging questions, you're in trouble because
                              > these people think the Mahanta in Eckankar is above all else and should never be
                              > questioned, and your heart should be open to "him", the self appointed master,
                              > Harold Klemp. Even if the members of Eckankar are not honest with themselves
                              > enough to admit it consciously. On a subconscious level, they know better !!!
                              >
                              > ME: That following your heart
                              > thing is more about the Astral
                              > Heart Chakra... which is lower
                              > than the Third Eye or Tisra Til!
                              > Why didn't Klemp at least use
                              > the (Astral) Crown Chakra when
                              > having Eckists HU? After 30 years
                              > and HK still has Eckists HUing
                              > and focusing upon the 6th,
                              > Third Eye, Astral Chakra versus
                              > the 7th Crown Chakra!
                              >
                              >
                              > The shame of it all is that this deception is done in the name of an
                              > unconditional open heart to give love, which it is true, a part of GOD's flow
                              > but where's the truth ? What happened to that part of GOD ??? I guess it got
                              > lost in the sea of love…
                              >
                              >
                              > ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                              > "common language" but it's not
                              > quite true. ECK is not a common
                              > word and neither is Mahanta.
                              > And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                              > to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                              > others worship or think he is speaking
                              > about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                              > use the word GOD when it's not
                              > who or what they are referring
                              > to. It's like comparing apples
                              > to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                              > start out, and are trained, to be
                              > deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                              > fact alone makes Eckankar look
                              > very cult like. But, why the lie?
                              > The "common language" excuse
                              > doesn't hold water but Eckists
                              > can't question this underhanded
                              > practice or else they can have
                              > their position taken away and
                              > be Black Listed and shunned.
                              >
                              > Prometheus
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Hello prometheus_973;
                              > Remember me ? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writ
                              >
                              >
                              > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Hello Rosemarie,
                              > > I am a seeker of Truth as well.
                              > > And yes, this article on "The Dark
                              > > Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
                              > > there is a dark side to Eckankar and
                              > > there is also fear.
                              > >
                              > > I find it interesting that you've
                              > > read (and I assume have contemplated
                              > > upon) David Lane's research as well as
                              > > Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
                              > > and have, still, remained an ECKist.
                              > >
                              > > What happened to your "critical thinking?"
                              > > Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
                              > > you agree with some of it but not all of
                              > > it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
                              > > I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
                              > > isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
                              > > what they believe than any other religion
                              > > they've found. Is that the case with you?
                              > >
                              > > I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
                              > > book, threw it away (because of the bad
                              > > vibes), and then placed themselves upon
                              > > pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
                              > > and talk Eckists through their doubts and
                              > > concerns.
                              > >
                              > > You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
                              > > not all truth is the same. That's why there
                              > > are so many churches. People are social
                              > > animals and tend to seek out others with
                              > > similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
                              > > to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
                              > > to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
                              > > and a test for Soul.
                              > >
                              > > I also got the impression that you don't
                              > > participate much within the RESA structure.
                              > > Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
                              > > Do you know that you have to watch what
                              > > you say? You've observed and learned that
                              > > correct? You do care about being promoted
                              > > to that next initiation right?
                              > >
                              > > Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
                              > > take on the subjects that we've been discussing
                              > > here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
                              > > lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
                              > > for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
                              > > Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
                              > > when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
                              > > "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
                              > > detectors just for his talk?
                              > >
                              > > You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                              > > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
                              > > at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."
                              > >
                              > > BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
                              > > read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?
                              > >
                              > > Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
                              > > the table.
                              > >
                              > > Prometheus
                              > >
                              > > rosemarie wrote:
                              > > Hi Diana,
                              > >
                              > > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this
                              > path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been
                              > to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that
                              > honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth
                              > is truth and will always be the truth.
                              > >
                              > > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we
                              > follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching
                              > which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember,
                              > we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to
                              > bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
                              > >
                              > > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts
                              > sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must
                              > be brave and remain in truth.
                              > >
                              > > Thank you for getting back to me.
                              > > Rosemarie
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > dianastanley wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any
                              > direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from
                              > personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time. If it is
                              > hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew and was their
                              > experience I also say.
                              > >
                              > > Diana Stanley
                              > >
                              > > Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
                              > >
                              > > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who
                              > are searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
                              > findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
                              > thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.
                              > >
                              > I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                              > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
                              > have allot to bring to the table.
                              > >
                              > I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
                              > called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
                              > site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because
                              > I'd raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
                              > well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
                              > complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
                              > thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely
                              > objective.
                              >
                              > For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
                              > paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
                              > >
                              > I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
                              > within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on
                              > the facts.
                              > >
                              > I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
                              > the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
                              > belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking.
                              > Do you?
                              >
                            • prometheus_973
                              Hello Postekcon and All, Yes, it was always a conundrum trying to recruit new members via spreading the word i.e. manure. However, we had structured public
                              Message 14 of 24 , Sep 14, 2011
                                Hello Postekcon and All,
                                Yes, it was always a conundrum
                                trying to recruit new members
                                via "spreading the word" i.e.
                                manure. However, we had
                                structured public workshops
                                and/or book discussions with
                                Guidelines spelling out what
                                to do and how to do it.

                                Some RESA areas did experimental
                                programs (special projects),
                                and if successful, the ESC
                                tweaked them to be used
                                elsewhere. It was all quite
                                time consuming and frustrating.
                                Local areas and the H.I.s were
                                always judged on the numbers
                                of newbies showing up for
                                these events. Most people
                                were repeats and were into
                                metaphysics or were the friends,
                                coworkers or relatives of Eckists.

                                I recall that one local area
                                of a neighboring state was
                                having a lot of success via
                                large turnouts of newbies.
                                They probably had a couple
                                of hundred newbies in one
                                year and that was practically
                                unheard of in Eckankar. Several
                                of these H.I.s were very proud
                                of the "high counts" they turned
                                in to the ESC. However, out
                                of all of those newbies only
                                about ten joined Eckankar
                                and only, maybe, one or two
                                remained after a year. These,
                                I doubt, remained for the
                                long haul. Let's face it, it's
                                a dead end religion where
                                one pretends, i.e. imagines
                                or visualizes, their desires
                                for "spiritual" progress and
                                "knowingness" or "realization"
                                of varying degrees. The initiation
                                game is the main, underlying,
                                theme. The problem, for Eckists,
                                is that dangling carrot when
                                initiations have been "slowed-
                                down" for 25 years and the
                                highest most can go is the 7th!

                                Those 7th initiates who had
                                hit the glass ceiling 20 or more
                                years ago have rationalized
                                it all away. They only stay in
                                EK because they have some
                                prestige, a lot of Eck friends,
                                and have paid their dues with
                                a lot of vahana and satsang
                                work over the years. Plus, they've
                                been taught to "imagine" and
                                visualize, therefore, all they
                                need to do is pretend they are
                                8ths (on the inner). Most pretend
                                they are higher than 8ths. After
                                all, Darwin skipped or sped up
                                initiations even for Klemp. So,
                                if it was valid, then, why not
                                today? Actually, just about all
                                Eckists pretent they are "higher"
                                than the number printed on
                                their Membership Cards.

                                Anyway, the reason why
                                the EK Youth effort has
                                gained some momentum
                                over the years is because
                                it's easier to brainwash a
                                controlled subject. However,
                                that doesn't always work,
                                either, when these young
                                Eckists see their parents
                                act so nutty and non-Eck
                                like. Plus, reclusive Klemp
                                puts a lot of pressure upon
                                them to do the vahana/
                                missionary thing when
                                it's tough enough getting
                                through school and those
                                teen years. Klemp doesn't
                                have any empathy. He was
                                in a Lutheran all boys high
                                school and never learned
                                about dating until he got
                                out of the Air Force (1968)
                                when he was 26 years old!

                                One has to wonder why
                                Klemp doesn't do his fair
                                share of public vahana work.
                                Why doesn't he have a radio
                                show or do and say something
                                in real time? The EK Seminars
                                don't count. That's for maybe
                                a hundred newbies who aren't
                                all that "new" and for his brain-
                                washed followers.

                                In theory, Klemp's real "spiritual"
                                mission is to help his followers
                                achieve God Realization. However,
                                what Initiation level is the indicator
                                that this has been accomplished?

                                According to Book 2, CH. 12 of
                                the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad (Eckankar's
                                Holy Book) their God, Sugmad,
                                resides on the 10th Plane, however,
                                Eckists must have the 11th Initiation
                                for "entrance into the Sugmad world,
                                which is the highest world of God,
                                if any, may enter."

                                Of course, that's not quite true either
                                since there're the 12th, 13th, and 14th
                                initiations after this one. This, then,
                                is where one (supposedly) enters into
                                Soul's true home called The Ocean of
                                love and Mercy. However, one can see
                                why EK Higher initiates (5-7) become
                                internally frustrated since, except for
                                a handful of people, they will never
                                even see the 8th initiation (in this
                                lifetime). That's the Catch/Con that
                                Twitchell invented and Klemp inherited.
                                Hope via promises for a better afterlife
                                while imagining day-to-day miracles
                                and dreaming about one's pre-programmed
                                expectations. It's how any and every
                                religion works.

                                Prometheus




                                "postekcon" wrote:
                                Re
                                >>>
                                ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                                "common language" but it's not
                                quite true. ECK is not a common
                                word and neither is Mahanta.
                                And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                                to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                                others worship or think he is speaking
                                about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                                use the word GOD when it's not
                                who or what they are referring
                                to. It's like comparing apples
                                to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                                start out, and are trained, to be
                                deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                                fact alone makes Eckankar look
                                very cult like. But, why the lie?
                                The "common language" excuse
                                doesn't hold water but Eckists
                                can't question this underhanded
                                practice or else they can have
                                their position taken away and
                                can be Black Listed and shunned.
                                >>>


                                For the past ten years, I have observed this pattern.

                                Hard working HIs (50-70yrs plus) busy putting on Intro Talks, occasionally
                                enrolling a new recruit to ekult.

                                However, within a year or two, the new recruit leaves ekult as nothing makes
                                sense! Of course, the HIs, unable to look at either themselves or ekult, always
                                blame the new recruit with comments such as lack of unfoldment etc!

                                For the new recruit, the reason nothing makes sense, I've observed, is thus. The
                                HIs bring the new recruit into Paul Twitchell/Darwin Gross ekult; the ekult into
                                which they themselved were enrolled. Now this version of ekult promised it had
                                the tools for self/god realization in this lifetime etc. However, several MW
                                (Mystic World) issues later, the new recruit comes to understand these 'good
                                people' lied to them!
                                -Postekcon


                                In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                                <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Hello All,
                                > Just thought I'd share some
                                > additional comments to what
                                > Starshine wrote.
                                >
                                > starshine917 wrote:
                                > Hello prometheus_973:
                                > Remember me? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writing to you now….exactly, one
                                > year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I didn't plan it like
                                > this but somehow it just worked out this way.
                                >
                                >
                                > ME: Yes, it takes awhile for the
                                > realization to occur and sink in
                                > even after one decides to look
                                > for and analyze it via critical
                                > thinking while giving HK's/PT's
                                > redundant words a litmus test
                                > for truthiness.
                                >
                                >
                                > I recently left Eckankar. And, you were right….I read David Lane's paper as
                                well as Ford Johnson's "Confessions of a God Seeker" And, for some reason at
                                that time I remained in the group tying to focus on the so-called positive side
                                of the Eckankar, the hypnotic rederick that goes nowhere while ignoring the
                                facts.

                                > I then started to take a good look at Harold…looked into his "dark" eyes and
                                > listened to his figure of monotone speak and I realized it was very hypnotic,
                                > and at the same time very inviting. I wondered who or what was inside of those
                                > dark eyes….And they seem to always come as "the light". Yes, the "angel of
                                > light".
                                >
                                >
                                > ME: Klemp is no angel of light! He spreads
                                > darkness and delusion while denying Eckists
                                > their true nature as Soul. He gives (hope),
                                > promises (higher plane initiations), and then
                                > takes it all away (hope of ever getting beyond
                                > the 7th initiation while in this lifetime, unless,
                                > one pretends or imagines they are higher
                                > via vanity and frustration).
                                >
                                >
                                > I was in a satsang at that time and I found it disturbing more and more that
                                his
                                > same picture of himself, which by the way never changes, the one and only
                                > picture that has to be present at all Eckankar meetings was never questioned
                                by
                                > it's members. All the books we studied were written by him and only him !!!
                                And
                                > how some members were "higher" than others depending on their "initiation"
                                > number, even if these people knew absolutely nothing except what was written
                                in
                                > the books of Eckankar. Some of these people seemed to have anger issues too
                                > which didn't seem to fit the spiritual portrait of a saint they painted. I
                                > started to feel uncomfortable around these people cause they seemed more and
                                > more to me like mind-controlled slaves. And, they too could see that I was
                                > thinking and starting to pull away because I no longer looked to them without
                                > question, with blind authority.
                                >
                                >
                                > ME: Yes, that more youthful looking
                                > Official Picture of Klemp's is a vain act,
                                > but is never questioned because to do
                                > so would get one Black Listed on initiations.
                                > Those longtime Eckists who are part
                                > of the RESA Hierarchy know what I'm
                                > saying. Some H.I.s are fearful/cautious
                                > of the spies that report to the RESA and
                                > only share certain things (anti-Guideline
                                > comments, etc.) around those H.I.s they
                                > can trust.
                                >
                                >
                                > BTW- There are some books, that Klemp
                                > has approved of, written by non-Eck
                                > authors that Eckists can read. However,
                                > the Eckist must always focus upon the
                                > ECK or Mahanta when reading these
                                > books and, thus, give up free, unfettered,
                                > thought. Some of these books are
                                > recommended to those in leadership
                                > positions and are business oriented.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > So, it wasn't a good mix to say the very least. I finally had it out with one
                                of
                                > the members and I realized that I already left…In my heart, I choose to follow
                                > truth and I also realized that that in Eckankar, I was being deceived. And I
                                > realized that I couldn't have it both ways. I had to pick my convictions and
                                go
                                > with them. After all, why would I go against my own self, and what was in my
                                > heart?
                                >
                                >
                                > ME: It's the easy way to place an
                                > authority figure on a shelf higher
                                > than yourself. Less thinking and
                                > effort is involved when blind trust
                                > takes over. It's lazy but that's what
                                > people do. Look at how we allow
                                > the politicians to say and do as
                                > they please without taking responsibility.
                                > With Klemp, it's always the chela's
                                > fault and never his own! He slowed-
                                > down initiations in 1985, but doesn't
                                > need to explain why these haven't
                                > sped up because he answers to
                                > nobody else, except, Sugmad right?
                                >
                                >
                                > In Eckankar it is taught to open and follow your heart but yet, if you dare
                                open
                                > your mind and begin to ask challenging questions, you're in trouble because
                                > these people think the Mahanta in Eckankar is above all else and should never
                                be
                                > questioned, and your heart should be open to "him", the self appointed master,
                                > Harold Klemp. Even if the members of Eckankar are not honest with themselves
                                > enough to admit it consciously. On a subconscious level, they know better !!!
                                >
                                > ME: That following your heart
                                > thing is more about the Astral
                                > Heart Chakra... which is lower
                                > than the Third Eye or Tisra Til!
                                > Why didn't Klemp at least use
                                > the (Astral) Crown Chakra when
                                > having Eckists HU? After 30 years
                                > and HK still has Eckists HUing
                                > and focusing upon the 6th,
                                > Third Eye, Astral Chakra versus
                                > the 7th Crown Chakra!
                                >
                                >
                                > The shame of it all is that this deception is done in the name of an
                                > unconditional open heart to give love, which it is true, a part of GOD's flow
                                > but where's the truth ? What happened to that part of GOD ??? I guess it got
                                > lost in the sea of love…
                                >
                                >
                                > ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                                > "common language" but it's not
                                > quite true. ECK is not a common
                                > word and neither is Mahanta.
                                > And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                                > to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                                > others worship or think he is speaking
                                > about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                                > use the word GOD when it's not
                                > who or what they are referring
                                > to. It's like comparing apples
                                > to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                                > start out, and are trained, to be
                                > deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                                > fact alone makes Eckankar look
                                > very cult like. But, why the lie?
                                > The "common language" excuse
                                > doesn't hold water but Eckists
                                > can't question this underhanded
                                > practice or else they can have
                                > their position taken away and
                                > be Black Listed and shunned.
                                >
                                > Prometheus
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Hello prometheus_973;
                                > Remember me ? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writ
                                >
                                >
                                > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Hello Rosemarie,
                                > > I am a seeker of Truth as well.
                                > > And yes, this article on "The Dark
                                > > Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
                                > > there is a dark side to Eckankar and
                                > > there is also fear.
                                > >
                                > > I find it interesting that you've
                                > > read (and I assume have contemplated
                                > > upon) David Lane's research as well as
                                > > Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
                                > > and have, still, remained an ECKist.
                                > >
                                > > What happened to your "critical thinking?"
                                > > Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
                                > > you agree with some of it but not all of
                                > > it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
                                > > I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
                                > > isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
                                > > what they believe than any other religion
                                > > they've found. Is that the case with you?
                                > >
                                > > I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
                                > > book, threw it away (because of the bad
                                > > vibes), and then placed themselves upon
                                > > pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
                                > > and talk Eckists through their doubts and
                                > > concerns.
                                > >
                                > > You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
                                > > not all truth is the same. That's why there
                                > > are so many churches. People are social
                                > > animals and tend to seek out others with
                                > > similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
                                > > to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
                                > > to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
                                > > and a test for Soul.
                                > >
                                > > I also got the impression that you don't
                                > > participate much within the RESA structure.
                                > > Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
                                > > Do you know that you have to watch what
                                > > you say? You've observed and learned that
                                > > correct? You do care about being promoted
                                > > to that next initiation right?
                                > >
                                > > Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
                                > > take on the subjects that we've been discussing
                                > > here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
                                > > lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
                                > > for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
                                > > Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
                                > > when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
                                > > "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
                                > > detectors just for his talk?
                                > >
                                > > You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                                > > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
                                > > at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."
                                > >
                                > > BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
                                > > read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?
                                > >
                                > > Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
                                > > the table.
                                > >
                                > > Prometheus
                                > >
                                > > rosemarie wrote:
                                > > Hi Diana,
                                > >
                                > > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on
                                this
                                > path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been
                                > to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that
                                > honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that
                                truth
                                > is truth and will always be the truth.
                                > >
                                > > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we
                                > follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching
                                > which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's
                                remember,
                                > we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much
                                to
                                > bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
                                > >
                                > > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it
                                hurts
                                > sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we
                                must
                                > be brave and remain in truth.
                                > >
                                > > Thank you for getting back to me.
                                > > Rosemarie
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > dianastanley wrote:
                                > >
                                > Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any
                                > direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from
                                > personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time. If it is
                                > hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew and was
                                > their experience I also say.
                                > >
                                > > Diana Stanley
                                > >
                                > > Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
                                > >
                                > > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who
                                > are searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
                                > findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
                                > thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.
                                > >
                                > I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                                > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
                                > have allot to bring to the table.
                                > >
                                > I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
                                > called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
                                > site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because
                                > I'd raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
                                > well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
                                > complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
                                > thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely
                                > objective.
                                >
                                > For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
                                > paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
                                > >
                                > I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
                                > within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on
                                > the facts.
                                > >
                                > I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
                                > the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
                                > belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking.
                                > Do you?
                                >
                              • etznab@aol.com
                                One of Paul Twitchell s first reported journey s with Rebazar Tarzs mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme. Check the index section for Ocean
                                Message 15 of 24 , Sep 14, 2011
                                  One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar Tarzs
                                  mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme. Check the
                                  index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with the Master.

                                  The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless region,
                                  [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called THE FACE OF
                                  GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying: [Quoting
                                  >] "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the light of
                                  God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes could not look
                                  upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean of Love
                                  and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return in time."
                                  (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)

                                  Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in the House
                                  of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens. Ye cannot
                                  go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with my divine
                                  self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in the divine
                                  cause!"

                                  Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the Master, has
                                  Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting snippet]:

                                  "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in a
                                  mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
                                  attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
                                  "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and after
                                  this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul reaches
                                  the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or the SUGMAD,
                                  the supreme LORD of all that exists."

                                  http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html

                                  Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the description
                                  slightly:

                                  "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the Sat Nam in
                                  a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in all Sat
                                  Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the three
                                  remaining known planes.
                                  "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
                                  after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam Purusha, or
                                  lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region of the
                                  nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first you know
                                  about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the Divine.
                                  "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."

                                  http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html

                                  Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is illustrated (by
                                  Paul Twitchell) slightly different.

                                  "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam Lok.
                                  Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the end of its
                                  journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the supreme
                                  lord of all that exists."

                                  http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html

                                  The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok, Alak Lok,
                                  Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with Ocean of
                                  Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip mention of
                                  Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.

                                  In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master, Introduction to
                                  Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes similarly, and
                                  in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain sections from
                                  The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:

                                  "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit is
                                  expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal, Nirala,
                                  Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
                                  Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country

                                  http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html

                                  "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many words, such
                                  as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala, Anami, Agam,
                                  Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar, Parameshwar,
                                  Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters

                                  http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html

                                  Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent from the
                                  Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR vs.
                                  Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian Johnson's book,
                                  The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The Far
                                  Country, by at least three decades!

                                  Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word, trademarked
                                  it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is somehow more
                                  than a paraphrase.











                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                                  <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Wed, Sep 14, 2011 11:17 am
                                  Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: "The Dark Side of ECKankar" -
                                  And More!

                                   
                                  Hello Postekcon and All,
                                  Yes, it was always a conundrum
                                  trying to recruit new members
                                  via "spreading the word" i.e.
                                  manure. However, we had
                                  structured public workshops
                                  and/or book discussions with
                                  Guidelines spelling out what
                                  to do and how to do it.

                                  Some RESA areas did experimental
                                  programs (special projects),
                                  and if successful, the ESC
                                  tweaked them to be used
                                  elsewhere. It was all quite
                                  time consuming and frustrating.
                                  Local areas and the H.I.s were
                                  always judged on the numbers
                                  of newbies showing up for
                                  these events. Most people
                                  were repeats and were into
                                  metaphysics or were the friends,
                                  coworkers or relatives of Eckists.

                                  I recall that one local area
                                  of a neighboring state was
                                  having a lot of success via
                                  large turnouts of newbies.
                                  They probably had a couple
                                  of hundred newbies in one
                                  year and that was practically
                                  unheard of in Eckankar. Several
                                  of these H.I.s were very proud
                                  of the "high counts" they turned
                                  in to the ESC. However, out
                                  of all of those newbies only
                                  about ten joined Eckankar
                                  and only, maybe, one or two
                                  remained after a year. These,
                                  I doubt, remained for the
                                  long haul. Let's face it, it's
                                  a dead end religion where
                                  one pretends, i.e. imagines
                                  or visualizes, their desires
                                  for "spiritual" progress and
                                  "knowingness" or "realization"
                                  of varying degrees. The initiation
                                  game is the main, underlying,
                                  theme. The problem, for Eckists,
                                  is that dangling carrot when
                                  initiations have been "slowed-
                                  down" for 25 years and the
                                  highest most can go is the 7th!

                                  Those 7th initiates who had
                                  hit the glass ceiling 20 or more
                                  years ago have rationalized
                                  it all away. They only stay in
                                  EK because they have some
                                  prestige, a lot of Eck friends,
                                  and have paid their dues with
                                  a lot of vahana and satsang
                                  work over the years. Plus, they've
                                  been taught to "imagine" and
                                  visualize, therefore, all they
                                  need to do is pretend they are
                                  8ths (on the inner). Most pretend
                                  they are higher than 8ths. After
                                  all, Darwin skipped or sped up
                                  initiations even for Klemp. So,
                                  if it was valid, then, why not
                                  today? Actually, just about all
                                  Eckists pretent they are "higher"
                                  than the number printed on
                                  their Membership Cards.

                                  Anyway, the reason why
                                  the EK Youth effort has
                                  gained some momentum
                                  over the years is because
                                  it's easier to brainwash a
                                  controlled subject. However,
                                  that doesn't always work,
                                  either, when these young
                                  Eckists see their parents
                                  act so nutty and non-Eck
                                  like. Plus, reclusive Klemp
                                  puts a lot of pressure upon
                                  them to do the vahana/
                                  missionary thing when
                                  it's tough enough getting
                                  through school and those
                                  teen years. Klemp doesn't
                                  have any empathy. He was
                                  in a Lutheran all boys high
                                  school and never learned
                                  about dating until he got
                                  out of the Air Force (1968)
                                  when he was 26 years old!

                                  One has to wonder why
                                  Klemp doesn't do his fair
                                  share of public vahana work.
                                  Why doesn't he have a radio
                                  show or do and say something
                                  in real time? The EK Seminars
                                  don't count. That's for maybe
                                  a hundred newbies who aren't
                                  all that "new" and for his brain-
                                  washed followers.

                                  In theory, Klemp's real "spiritual"
                                  mission is to help his followers
                                  achieve God Realization. However,
                                  what Initiation level is the indicator
                                  that this has been accomplished?

                                  According to Book 2, CH. 12 of
                                  the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad (Eckankar's
                                  Holy Book) their God, Sugmad,
                                  resides on the 10th Plane, however,
                                  Eckists must have the 11th Initiation
                                  for "entrance into the Sugmad world,
                                  which is the highest world of God,
                                  if any, may enter."

                                  Of course, that's not quite true either
                                  since there're the 12th, 13th, and 14th
                                  initiations after this one. This, then,
                                  is where one (supposedly) enters into
                                  Soul's true home called The Ocean of
                                  love and Mercy. However, one can see
                                  why EK Higher initiates (5-7) become
                                  internally frustrated since, except for
                                  a handful of people, they will never
                                  even see the 8th initiation (in this
                                  lifetime). That's the Catch/Con that
                                  Twitchell invented and Klemp inherited.
                                  Hope via promises for a better afterlife
                                  while imagining day-to-day miracles
                                  and dreaming about one's pre-programmed
                                  expectations. It's how any and every
                                  religion works.

                                  Prometheus

                                  "postekcon" wrote:
                                  Re
                                  >>>
                                  ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                                  "common language" but it's not
                                  quite true. ECK is not a common
                                  word and neither is Mahanta.
                                  And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                                  to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                                  others worship or think he is speaking
                                  about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                                  use the word GOD when it's not
                                  who or what they are referring
                                  to. It's like comparing apples
                                  to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                                  start out, and are trained, to be
                                  deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                                  fact alone makes Eckankar look
                                  very cult like. But, why the lie?
                                  The "common language" excuse
                                  doesn't hold water but Eckists
                                  can't question this underhanded
                                  practice or else they can have
                                  their position taken away and
                                  can be Black Listed and shunned.
                                  >>>

                                  For the past ten years, I have observed this pattern.

                                  Hard working HIs (50-70yrs plus) busy putting on Intro Talks,
                                  occasionally
                                  enrolling a new recruit to ekult.

                                  However, within a year or two, the new recruit leaves ekult as nothing
                                  makes
                                  sense! Of course, the HIs, unable to look at either themselves or
                                  ekult, always
                                  blame the new recruit with comments such as lack of unfoldment etc!

                                  For the new recruit, the reason nothing makes sense, I've observed, is
                                  thus. The
                                  HIs bring the new recruit into Paul Twitchell/Darwin Gross ekult; the
                                  ekult into
                                  which they themselved were enrolled. Now this version of ekult promised
                                  it had
                                  the tools for self/god realization in this lifetime etc. However,
                                  several MW
                                  (Mystic World) issues later, the new recruit comes to understand these
                                  'good
                                  people' lied to them!
                                  -Postekcon

                                  In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                                  <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hello All,
                                  > Just thought I'd share some
                                  > additional comments to what
                                  > Starshine wrote.
                                  >
                                  > starshine917 wrote:
                                  > Hello prometheus_973:
                                  > Remember me? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writing to you
                                  now….exactly, one
                                  > year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I didn't
                                  plan it like
                                  > this but somehow it just worked out this way.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ME: Yes, it takes awhile for the
                                  > realization to occur and sink in
                                  > even after one decides to look
                                  > for and analyze it via critical
                                  > thinking while giving HK's/PT's
                                  > redundant words a litmus test
                                  > for truthiness.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I recently left Eckankar. And, you were right….I read David Lane's
                                  paper as
                                  well as Ford Johnson's "Confessions of a God Seeker" And, for some
                                  reason at
                                  that time I remained in the group tying to focus on the so-called
                                  positive side
                                  of the Eckankar, the hypnotic rederick that goes nowhere while ignoring
                                  the
                                  facts.

                                  > I then started to take a good look at Harold…looked into his
                                  "dark" eyes and
                                  > listened to his figure of monotone speak and I realized it was
                                  very hypnotic,
                                  > and at the same time very inviting. I wondered who or what was
                                  inside of those
                                  > dark eyes….And they seem to always come as "the light". Yes, the
                                  "angel of
                                  > light".
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ME: Klemp is no angel of light! He spreads
                                  > darkness and delusion while denying Eckists
                                  > their true nature as Soul. He gives (hope),
                                  > promises (higher plane initiations), and then
                                  > takes it all away (hope of ever getting beyond
                                  > the 7th initiation while in this lifetime, unless,
                                  > one pretends or imagines they are higher
                                  > via vanity and frustration).
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I was in a satsang at that time and I found it disturbing more and
                                  more that
                                  his
                                  > same picture of himself, which by the way never changes, the one
                                  and only
                                  > picture that has to be present at all Eckankar meetings was never
                                  questioned
                                  by
                                  > it's members. All the books we studied were written by him and
                                  only him !!!
                                  And
                                  > how some members were "higher" than others depending on their
                                  "initiation"
                                  > number, even if these people knew absolutely nothing except what
                                  was written
                                  in
                                  > the books of Eckankar. Some of these people seemed to have anger
                                  issues too
                                  > which didn't seem to fit the spiritual portrait of a saint they
                                  painted. I
                                  > started to feel uncomfortable around these people cause they
                                  seemed more and
                                  > more to me like mind-controlled slaves. And, they too could see
                                  that I was
                                  > thinking and starting to pull away because I no longer looked to
                                  them without
                                  > question, with blind authority.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ME: Yes, that more youthful looking
                                  > Official Picture of Klemp's is a vain act,
                                  > but is never questioned because to do
                                  > so would get one Black Listed on initiations.
                                  > Those longtime Eckists who are part
                                  > of the RESA Hierarchy know what I'm
                                  > saying. Some H.I.s are fearful/cautious
                                  > of the spies that report to the RESA and
                                  > only share certain things (anti-Guideline
                                  > comments, etc.) around those H.I.s they
                                  > can trust.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > BTW- There are some books, that Klemp
                                  > has approved of, written by non-Eck
                                  > authors that Eckists can read. However,
                                  > the Eckist must always focus upon the
                                  > ECK or Mahanta when reading these
                                  > books and, thus, give up free, unfettered,
                                  > thought. Some of these books are
                                  > recommended to those in leadership
                                  > positions and are business oriented.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > So, it wasn't a good mix to say the very least. I finally had it
                                  out with one
                                  of
                                  > the members and I realized that I already left…In my heart, I
                                  choose to follow
                                  > truth and I also realized that that in Eckankar, I was being
                                  deceived. And I
                                  > realized that I couldn't have it both ways. I had to pick my
                                  convictions and
                                  go
                                  > with them. After all, why would I go against my own self, and what
                                  was in my
                                  > heart?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ME: It's the easy way to place an
                                  > authority figure on a shelf higher
                                  > than yourself. Less thinking and
                                  > effort is involved when blind trust
                                  > takes over. It's lazy but that's what
                                  > people do. Look at how we allow
                                  > the politicians to say and do as
                                  > they please without taking responsibility.
                                  > With Klemp, it's always the chela's
                                  > fault and never his own! He slowed-
                                  > down initiations in 1985, but doesn't
                                  > need to explain why these haven't
                                  > sped up because he answers to
                                  > nobody else, except, Sugmad right?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > In Eckankar it is taught to open and follow your heart but yet, if
                                  you dare
                                  open
                                  > your mind and begin to ask challenging questions, you're in
                                  trouble because
                                  > these people think the Mahanta in Eckankar is above all else and
                                  should never
                                  be
                                  > questioned, and your heart should be open to "him", the self
                                  appointed master,
                                  > Harold Klemp. Even if the members of Eckankar are not honest with
                                  themselves
                                  > enough to admit it consciously. On a subconscious level, they know
                                  better !!!
                                  >
                                  > ME: That following your heart
                                  > thing is more about the Astral
                                  > Heart Chakra... which is lower
                                  > than the Third Eye or Tisra Til!
                                  > Why didn't Klemp at least use
                                  > the (Astral) Crown Chakra when
                                  > having Eckists HU? After 30 years
                                  > and HK still has Eckists HUing
                                  > and focusing upon the 6th,
                                  > Third Eye, Astral Chakra versus
                                  > the 7th Crown Chakra!
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > The shame of it all is that this deception is done in the name of
                                  an
                                  > unconditional open heart to give love, which it is true, a part of
                                  GOD's flow
                                  > but where's the truth ? What happened to that part of GOD ??? I
                                  guess it got
                                  > lost in the sea of love…
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                                  > "common language" but it's not
                                  > quite true. ECK is not a common
                                  > word and neither is Mahanta.
                                  > And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                                  > to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                                  > others worship or think he is speaking
                                  > about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                                  > use the word GOD when it's not
                                  > who or what they are referring
                                  > to. It's like comparing apples
                                  > to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                                  > start out, and are trained, to be
                                  > deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                                  > fact alone makes Eckankar look
                                  > very cult like. But, why the lie?
                                  > The "common language" excuse
                                  > doesn't hold water but Eckists
                                  > can't question this underhanded
                                  > practice or else they can have
                                  > their position taken away and
                                  > be Black Listed and shunned.
                                  >
                                  > Prometheus
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Hello prometheus_973;
                                  > Remember me ? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writ
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Hello Rosemarie,
                                  > > I am a seeker of Truth as well.
                                  > > And yes, this article on "The Dark
                                  > > Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
                                  > > there is a dark side to Eckankar and
                                  > > there is also fear.
                                  > >
                                  > > I find it interesting that you've
                                  > > read (and I assume have contemplated
                                  > > upon) David Lane's research as well as
                                  > > Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
                                  > > and have, still, remained an ECKist.
                                  > >
                                  > > What happened to your "critical thinking?"
                                  > > Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
                                  > > you agree with some of it but not all of
                                  > > it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
                                  > > I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
                                  > > isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
                                  > > what they believe than any other religion
                                  > > they've found. Is that the case with you?
                                  > >
                                  > > I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
                                  > > book, threw it away (because of the bad
                                  > > vibes), and then placed themselves upon
                                  > > pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
                                  > > and talk Eckists through their doubts and
                                  > > concerns.
                                  > >
                                  > > You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
                                  > > not all truth is the same. That's why there
                                  > > are so many churches. People are social
                                  > > animals and tend to seek out others with
                                  > > similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
                                  > > to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
                                  > > to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
                                  > > and a test for Soul.
                                  > >
                                  > > I also got the impression that you don't
                                  > > participate much within the RESA structure.
                                  > > Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
                                  > > Do you know that you have to watch what
                                  > > you say? You've observed and learned that
                                  > > correct? You do care about being promoted
                                  > > to that next initiation right?
                                  > >
                                  > > Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
                                  > > take on the subjects that we've been discussing
                                  > > here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
                                  > > lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
                                  > > for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
                                  > > Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
                                  > > when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
                                  > > "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
                                  > > detectors just for his talk?
                                  > >
                                  > > You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                                  > > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
                                  > > at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."
                                  > >
                                  > > BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
                                  > > read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?
                                  > >
                                  > > Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
                                  > > the table.
                                  > >
                                  > > Prometheus
                                  > >
                                  > > rosemarie wrote:
                                  > > Hi Diana,
                                  > >
                                  > > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar
                                  and while on
                                  this
                                  > path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as
                                  well. I've been
                                  > to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I
                                  agree that
                                  > honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also
                                  understand that
                                  truth
                                  > is truth and will always be the truth.
                                  > >
                                  > > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless
                                  of what path we
                                  > follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are
                                  all searching
                                  > which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and
                                  let's
                                  remember,
                                  > we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We
                                  have so much
                                  to
                                  > bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and
                                  experience.
                                  > >
                                  > > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it
                                  even if it
                                  hurts
                                  > sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back
                                  to GOD, we
                                  must
                                  > be brave and remain in truth.
                                  > >
                                  > > Thank you for getting back to me.
                                  > > Rosemarie
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > dianastanley wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you
                                  have any
                                  > direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it
                                  is from
                                  > personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time.
                                  If it is
                                  > hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew
                                  and was
                                  > their experience I also say.
                                  > >
                                  > > Diana Stanley
                                  > >
                                  > > Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for
                                  those of you who
                                  > are searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for
                                  sharing your
                                  > findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light"
                                  of critical
                                  > thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.
                                  > >
                                  > I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar
                                  has issues.
                                  > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this
                                  site, so we
                                  > have allot to bring to the table.
                                  > >
                                  > I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used
                                  in this paper
                                  > called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links"
                                  in this web
                                  > site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of
                                  challenge because
                                  > I'd raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this
                                  paper as
                                  > well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be
                                  painted with
                                  > complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of
                                  critical
                                  > thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being
                                  completely
                                  > objective.
                                  >
                                  > For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack
                                  ECKankar in this
                                  > paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they
                                  originated.
                                  > >
                                  > I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure
                                  is overdo
                                  > within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is
                                  based on
                                  > the facts.
                                  > >
                                  > I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't
                                  think
                                  > the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within
                                  one religious
                                  > belief system and exchange them for another in the name of
                                  critical thinking.
                                  > Do you?
                                  >
                                • prometheus_973
                                  Hello Etznab and All, It is interesting that Twitchell has his Rebazar character (the Master who initiated him) indicate that there were 8 Planes just as
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Sep 16, 2011
                                    Hello Etznab and All,
                                    It is interesting that Twitchell
                                    has his Rebazar character (the
                                    "Master" who initiated him)
                                    indicate that there were 8 Planes
                                    just as Radhasomi and Ruhani
                                    Satsang have listed in "The Path
                                    of the Masters." Since Kirpal
                                    Singh, of Ruhani Satsang, was
                                    Paul's real life Master for ten years
                                    it's no wonder that this dogma was
                                    influential in the design of Eckankar.

                                    Of course, Twitchell was constantly
                                    tweaking, revising, and masking his
                                    religious con as time went by.

                                    The Anami Lok (10th Plane where
                                    "Sugmad" resides) didn't appear until
                                    later. Did Rebazar simply forget to
                                    mention this as well as the "Mahanta?"
                                    Did RT think that Paul needed to be
                                    spoon-fed and wasn't ready for this
                                    advanced "spiritual" info? No, not really.
                                    According to Twitchell he had been
                                    given the 12th and "final initiation"
                                    (to become LEM) back in 1951 by
                                    Rebazar while on his "2nd" visit to
                                    India. See, the timeline is off for this
                                    ekplanation to be taken seriously as
                                    well.

                                    Therefore, there is no rational excuse
                                    for these inconsistencies except to
                                    admit that the "rascal" Twitchell was,
                                    once again, "exaggerating" and "twisting
                                    facts" as even Klemp has described
                                    and said of him. Klemp, years ago,
                                    had to admit that Twitchell was a self-
                                    promoter and did or said whatever
                                    he needed to do ("By Any Means Necessary")
                                    in order to get Eckankar off the ground.

                                    This is why Klemp, at first, had a
                                    difficult job of explaining Twitchell's
                                    inconsistencies and needed to keep
                                    Eckists confused, busy, and off-balance.
                                    Now, Eckists are so brainwashed that
                                    Klemp can say whatever in his simple
                                    minded redundant versions of feel-good
                                    New Age spirituality.


                                    Prometheus



                                    etznab wrote:

                                    One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar Tarzs
                                    mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme. Check the
                                    index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with the Master.

                                    The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless region,
                                    [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called THE FACE OF
                                    GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying: [Quoting]
                                    "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the light of
                                    God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes could not look
                                    upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean of Love
                                    and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return in time."
                                    (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)

                                    Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in the House
                                    of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens. Ye cannot
                                    go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with my divine
                                    self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in the divine
                                    cause!"

                                    Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the Master, has
                                    Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting snippet]:

                                    "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in a
                                    mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
                                    attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
                                    "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and after
                                    this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul reaches
                                    the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or the SUGMAD,
                                    the supreme LORD of all that exists."

                                    http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html

                                    Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the description
                                    slightly:

                                    "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the Sat Nam in
                                    a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in all Sat
                                    Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the three
                                    remaining known planes.

                                    "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
                                    after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam Purusha, or
                                    lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region of the
                                    nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first you know
                                    about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the Divine.

                                    "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."

                                    http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html

                                    Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is illustrated (by
                                    Paul Twitchell) slightly different.

                                    "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam Lok.
                                    Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the end of its
                                    journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the supreme
                                    lord of all that exists."

                                    http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html

                                    The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok, Alak Lok,
                                    Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with Ocean of
                                    Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip mention of
                                    Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.

                                    In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master, Introduction to
                                    Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes similarly, and
                                    in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain sections from
                                    The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:

                                    "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit is
                                    expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal, Nirala,
                                    Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
                                    Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country

                                    http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html

                                    "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many words, such
                                    as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala, Anami, Agam,
                                    Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar, Parameshwar,
                                    Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters

                                    http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html

                                    Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent from the
                                    Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR vs.
                                    Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian Johnson's book,
                                    The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The Far
                                    Country, by at least three decades!

                                    Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word, trademarked
                                    it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is somehow more
                                    than a paraphrase.
                                  • etznab18
                                    Almost didn t see this response because the e-mail bounced. Umm ... about the self-promotion, whatever, people can read about some of the history here.
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Sep 16, 2011
                                      Almost didn't see this response because the e-mail bounced.

                                      Umm ... about the self-promotion, whatever, people can read about some of the history here.

                                      http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html

                                      Check out 4th paragraph of article entitled: Paul's Seal of Approval.

                                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Hello Etznab and All,
                                      > It is interesting that Twitchell
                                      > has his Rebazar character (the
                                      > "Master" who initiated him)
                                      > indicate that there were 8 Planes
                                      > just as Radhasomi and Ruhani
                                      > Satsang have listed in "The Path
                                      > of the Masters." Since Kirpal
                                      > Singh, of Ruhani Satsang, was
                                      > Paul's real life Master for ten years
                                      > it's no wonder that this dogma was
                                      > influential in the design of Eckankar.
                                      >
                                      > Of course, Twitchell was constantly
                                      > tweaking, revising, and masking his
                                      > religious con as time went by.
                                      >
                                      > The Anami Lok (10th Plane where
                                      > "Sugmad" resides) didn't appear until
                                      > later. Did Rebazar simply forget to
                                      > mention this as well as the "Mahanta?"
                                      > Did RT think that Paul needed to be
                                      > spoon-fed and wasn't ready for this
                                      > advanced "spiritual" info? No, not really.
                                      > According to Twitchell he had been
                                      > given the 12th and "final initiation"
                                      > (to become LEM) back in 1951 by
                                      > Rebazar while on his "2nd" visit to
                                      > India. See, the timeline is off for this
                                      > ekplanation to be taken seriously as
                                      > well.
                                      >
                                      > Therefore, there is no rational excuse
                                      > for these inconsistencies except to
                                      > admit that the "rascal" Twitchell was,
                                      > once again, "exaggerating" and "twisting
                                      > facts" as even Klemp has described
                                      > and said of him. Klemp, years ago,
                                      > had to admit that Twitchell was a self-
                                      > promoter and did or said whatever
                                      > he needed to do ("By Any Means Necessary")
                                      > in order to get Eckankar off the ground.
                                      >
                                      > This is why Klemp, at first, had a
                                      > difficult job of explaining Twitchell's
                                      > inconsistencies and needed to keep
                                      > Eckists confused, busy, and off-balance.
                                      > Now, Eckists are so brainwashed that
                                      > Klemp can say whatever in his simple
                                      > minded redundant versions of feel-good
                                      > New Age spirituality.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Prometheus
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > etznab wrote:
                                      >
                                      > One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar Tarzs
                                      > mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme. Check the
                                      > index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with the Master.
                                      >
                                      > The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless region,
                                      > [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called THE FACE OF
                                      > GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying: [Quoting]
                                      > "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the light of
                                      > God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes could not look
                                      > upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean of Love
                                      > and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return in time."
                                      > (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)
                                      >
                                      > Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in the House
                                      > of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens. Ye cannot
                                      > go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with my divine
                                      > self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in the divine
                                      > cause!"
                                      >
                                      > Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the Master, has
                                      > Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting snippet]:
                                      >
                                      > "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in a
                                      > mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
                                      > attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
                                      > "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and after
                                      > this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul reaches
                                      > the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or the SUGMAD,
                                      > the supreme LORD of all that exists."
                                      >
                                      > http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html
                                      >
                                      > Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the description
                                      > slightly:
                                      >
                                      > "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the Sat Nam in
                                      > a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in all Sat
                                      > Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the three
                                      > remaining known planes.
                                      >
                                      > "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
                                      > after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam Purusha, or
                                      > lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region of the
                                      > nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first you know
                                      > about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the Divine.
                                      >
                                      > "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."
                                      >
                                      > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                      >
                                      > Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is illustrated (by
                                      > Paul Twitchell) slightly different.
                                      >
                                      > "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam Lok.
                                      > Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the end of its
                                      > journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the supreme
                                      > lord of all that exists."
                                      >
                                      > http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html
                                      >
                                      > The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok, Alak Lok,
                                      > Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with Ocean of
                                      > Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip mention of
                                      > Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.
                                      >
                                      > In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master, Introduction to
                                      > Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes similarly, and
                                      > in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain sections from
                                      > The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:
                                      >
                                      > "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit is
                                      > expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal, Nirala,
                                      > Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
                                      > Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country
                                      >
                                      > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                      >
                                      > "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many words, such
                                      > as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala, Anami, Agam,
                                      > Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar, Parameshwar,
                                      > Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters
                                      >
                                      > http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html
                                      >
                                      > Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent from the
                                      > Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR vs.
                                      > Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian Johnson's book,
                                      > The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The Far
                                      > Country, by at least three decades!
                                      >
                                      > Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word, trademarked
                                      > it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is somehow more
                                      > than a paraphrase.
                                      >
                                    • prometheus_973
                                      Hello Etznab and All, This tells how Paul Twitchell was His Own Drum Beater: http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html What s interesting is that at
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Sep 17, 2011
                                        Hello Etznab and All,
                                        This tells how Paul Twitchell
                                        was His Own Drum Beater:

                                        http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html

                                        What's interesting is that at age 27 (1935)
                                        Twitchell was saying that he had been
                                        to India (supposedly at age 15 to meet
                                        Rebazar for the first time, DOBTLEM).
                                        However, Klemp points out that Twitchell
                                        was doing another self-promotion, and
                                        was lying in order to get into Who's Who
                                        in Kentucky. Klemp states that Twitchell
                                        had never been all that far from home
                                        at age 27. Klemp seems to have stepped
                                        into a big pile of Twits mess. HK's
                                        statement contradicts what Twitchell
                                        revealed in Difficulties of Becoming the
                                        Living ECK Master circa July, 1971. This
                                        1971 date is, supposedly, long after Twitchell
                                        (the Mahanta) was was no longer "exaggerating"
                                        and "twisting facts." However, as Klemp
                                        has pointed out Twitchell was still lying
                                        and promoting his con up until his untimely
                                        and death in September, 1971.

                                        Prometheus

                                        etznab@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Almost didn't see this response because the e-mail bounced.
                                        >
                                        > Umm ... about the self-promotion, whatever, people can read about some of the history here.
                                        >
                                        > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html
                                        >
                                        > Check out 4th paragraph of article entitled: Paul's Seal of Approval.
                                        >
                                        > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Hello Etznab and All,
                                        > > It is interesting that Twitchell
                                        > > has his Rebazar character (the
                                        > > "Master" who initiated him)
                                        > > indicate that there were 8 Planes
                                        > > just as Radhasomi and Ruhani
                                        > > Satsang have listed in "The Path
                                        > > of the Masters." Since Kirpal
                                        > > Singh, of Ruhani Satsang, was
                                        > > Paul's real life Master for ten years
                                        > > it's no wonder that this dogma was
                                        > > influential in the design of Eckankar.
                                        > >
                                        > > Of course, Twitchell was constantly
                                        > > tweaking, revising, and masking his
                                        > > religious con as time went by.
                                        > >
                                        > > The Anami Lok (10th Plane where
                                        > > "Sugmad" resides) didn't appear until
                                        > > later. Did Rebazar simply forget to
                                        > > mention this as well as the "Mahanta?"
                                        > > Did RT think that Paul needed to be
                                        > > spoon-fed and wasn't ready for this
                                        > > advanced "spiritual" info? No, not really.
                                        > > According to Twitchell he had been
                                        > > given the 12th and "final initiation"
                                        > > (to become LEM) back in 1951 by
                                        > > Rebazar while on his "2nd" visit to
                                        > > India. See, the timeline is off for this
                                        > > ekplanation to be taken seriously as
                                        > > well.
                                        > >
                                        > > Therefore, there is no rational excuse
                                        > > for these inconsistencies except to
                                        > > admit that the "rascal" Twitchell was,
                                        > > once again, "exaggerating" and "twisting
                                        > > facts" as even Klemp has described
                                        > > and said of him. Klemp, years ago,
                                        > > had to admit that Twitchell was a self-
                                        > > promoter and did or said whatever
                                        > > he needed to do ("By Any Means Necessary")
                                        > > in order to get Eckankar off the ground.
                                        > >
                                        > > This is why Klemp, at first, had a
                                        > > difficult job of explaining Twitchell's
                                        > > inconsistencies and needed to keep
                                        > > Eckists confused, busy, and off-balance.
                                        > > Now, Eckists are so brainwashed that
                                        > > Klemp can say whatever in his simple
                                        > > minded redundant versions of feel-good
                                        > > New Age spirituality.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Prometheus
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > etznab wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar Tarzs
                                        > > mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme. Check the
                                        > > index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with the Master.
                                        > >
                                        > > The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless region,
                                        > > [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called THE FACE OF
                                        > > GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying: [Quoting]
                                        > > "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the light of
                                        > > God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes could not look
                                        > > upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean of Love
                                        > > and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return in time."
                                        > > (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)
                                        > >
                                        > > Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in the House
                                        > > of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens. Ye cannot
                                        > > go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with my divine
                                        > > self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in the divine
                                        > > cause!"
                                        > >
                                        > > Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the Master, has
                                        > > Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting snippet]:
                                        > >
                                        > > "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in a
                                        > > mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
                                        > > attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
                                        > > "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and after
                                        > > this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul reaches
                                        > > the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or the SUGMAD,
                                        > > the supreme LORD of all that exists."
                                        > >
                                        > > http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html
                                        > >
                                        > > Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the description
                                        > > slightly:
                                        > >
                                        > > "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the Sat Nam in
                                        > > a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in all Sat
                                        > > Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the three
                                        > > remaining known planes.
                                        > >
                                        > > "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
                                        > > after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam Purusha, or
                                        > > lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region of the
                                        > > nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first you know
                                        > > about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the Divine.
                                        > >
                                        > > "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."
                                        > >
                                        > > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                        > >
                                        > > Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is illustrated (by
                                        > > Paul Twitchell) slightly different.
                                        > >
                                        > > "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam Lok.
                                        > > Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the end of its
                                        > > journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the supreme
                                        > > lord of all that exists."
                                        > >
                                        > > http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html
                                        > >
                                        > > The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok, Alak Lok,
                                        > > Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with Ocean of
                                        > > Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip mention of
                                        > > Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.
                                        > >
                                        > > In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master, Introduction to
                                        > > Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes similarly, and
                                        > > in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain sections from
                                        > > The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:
                                        > >
                                        > > "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit is
                                        > > expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal, Nirala,
                                        > > Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
                                        > > Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country
                                        > >
                                        > > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                        > >
                                        > > "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many words, such
                                        > > as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala, Anami, Agam,
                                        > > Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar, Parameshwar,
                                        > > Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters
                                        > >
                                        > > http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html
                                        > >
                                        > > Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent from the
                                        > > Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR vs.
                                        > > Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian Johnson's book,
                                        > > The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The Far
                                        > > Country, by at least three decades!
                                        > >
                                        > > Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word, trademarked
                                        > > it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is somehow more
                                        > > than a paraphrase.
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • etznab@aol.com
                                        I think a lot of people can overlook this stuff, thinking that whatever Paul Twitchell said/wrote must be the truth. Some people just might not care. Well,
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Sep 17, 2011
                                          I think a lot of people can overlook this stuff, thinking that whatever
                                          Paul Twitchell said/wrote must be the truth. Some people just might not
                                          care. Well, it's reasonable to suspect this talent - for promotion,
                                          even when it means making things up, stretching the truth, or just
                                          plain spinning lies - was used to "create" the Eckankar mythos.

                                          myth

                                          1830, from Gk. mythos "speech, thought, story, myth," of unknown origin.

                                          Myths are "stories about divine beings, generally arranged in a
                                          coherent system; they are revered as true and sacred; they are endorsed
                                          by rulers and priests; and closely linked to religion. Once this link
                                          is broken, and the actors in the story are not regarded as gods but as
                                          human heroes, giants or fairies, it is no longer a myth but a folktale.
                                          Where the central actor is divine but the story is trivial ... the
                                          result is religious legend, not myth." [J. Simpson & S. Roud,
                                          "Dictionary of English Folklore," Oxford, 2000, p.254]

                                          General sense of "untrue story, rumor" is from 1840.

                                          http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=mythos&searchmode=none

                                          In other words, amid all the compilations and recycled material, etc.,
                                          context has been changed (in various places) when it comes to source. I
                                          wonder, could Paul Twitchell have created "Eckankar" and at the same
                                          time given the source for all of his material? I noticed Kirpal Singh
                                          and others were very good at citing references and sharing what
                                          quote/saying came from who. So if Paul Twitchell ever chose to use
                                          passages and paragraphs from books, Did he always feel obligated to
                                          provide that information?

                                          As a promoter, I suspect the person wants to give credit to whatever
                                          they're promoting and not give more credit to "other products" instead.
                                          It makes sense (to me) that Paul Twitchell would "paint the name
                                          Eckankar" over so much material he had read (in so many words). Not
                                          only this, but it even appears probable that Paul Twitchell took
                                          liberty to respell and redefine words according to fit them in a new,
                                          and growing, Eckankar philosophy. Not only words, but names too!

                                          How extensive the promotion and PR campaign that created contemporary
                                          Eckankar teaching? In so many ways, it seems this is the part that
                                          doesn't agree with people. Not unless they knew from the beginning that
                                          information was not necessarily accurate and in some places embellished.

                                          embellish

                                          mid-14c., "to render beautiful," from O.Fr. embelliss-, stem of
                                          embellir "make beautiful, ornament," from em- (see en- (1)) + bel
                                          "beautiful," from L. bellus (see bene-). Meaning "dress up (a
                                          narration) with fictitious matter" is from mid-15c. Related:
                                          Embellished; embellishing.

                                          http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=embellished&searchmode=none

                                          Reading through early Eckankar books I think common sense might tell a
                                          person that parts of the material was embellished. At the same time I
                                          also think people could naturally so much want the material to be true
                                          that they allow imagination to "make it so" and overrule common sense.

                                          Ever observe what happens when you're part of a group where countless
                                          individuals believe in things - through imagination - that aren't
                                          necessarily true? I mean, when you're one of the unbelievers and part
                                          of the minority who question whether so many imagined things are true?


                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                                          <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Sent: Sat, Sep 17, 2011 2:14 am
                                          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: "The Dark Side of ECKankar" -
                                          And More!

                                           
                                          Hello Etznab and All,
                                          This tells how Paul Twitchell
                                          was His Own Drum Beater:

                                          http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html

                                          What's interesting is that at age 27 (1935)
                                          Twitchell was saying that he had been
                                          to India (supposedly at age 15 to meet
                                          Rebazar for the first time, DOBTLEM).
                                          However, Klemp points out that Twitchell
                                          was doing another self-promotion, and
                                          was lying in order to get into Who's Who
                                          in Kentucky. Klemp states that Twitchell
                                          had never been all that far from home
                                          at age 27. Klemp seems to have stepped
                                          into a big pile of Twits mess. HK's
                                          statement contradicts what Twitchell
                                          revealed in Difficulties of Becoming the
                                          Living ECK Master circa July, 1971. This
                                          1971 date is, supposedly, long after Twitchell
                                          (the Mahanta) was was no longer "exaggerating"
                                          and "twisting facts." However, as Klemp
                                          has pointed out Twitchell was still lying
                                          and promoting his con up until his untimely
                                          and death in September, 1971.

                                          Prometheus

                                          etznab@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Almost didn't see this response because the e-mail bounced.
                                          >
                                          > Umm ... about the self-promotion, whatever, people can read about
                                          some of the history here.
                                          >
                                          > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html
                                          >
                                          > Check out 4th paragraph of article entitled: Paul's Seal of
                                          Approval.
                                          >
                                          > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                                          "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > Hello Etznab and All,
                                          > > It is interesting that Twitchell
                                          > > has his Rebazar character (the
                                          > > "Master" who initiated him)
                                          > > indicate that there were 8 Planes
                                          > > just as Radhasomi and Ruhani
                                          > > Satsang have listed in "The Path
                                          > > of the Masters." Since Kirpal
                                          > > Singh, of Ruhani Satsang, was
                                          > > Paul's real life Master for ten years
                                          > > it's no wonder that this dogma was
                                          > > influential in the design of Eckankar.
                                          > >
                                          > > Of course, Twitchell was constantly
                                          > > tweaking, revising, and masking his
                                          > > religious con as time went by.
                                          > >
                                          > > The Anami Lok (10th Plane where
                                          > > "Sugmad" resides) didn't appear until
                                          > > later. Did Rebazar simply forget to
                                          > > mention this as well as the "Mahanta?"
                                          > > Did RT think that Paul needed to be
                                          > > spoon-fed and wasn't ready for this
                                          > > advanced "spiritual" info? No, not really.
                                          > > According to Twitchell he had been
                                          > > given the 12th and "final initiation"
                                          > > (to become LEM) back in 1951 by
                                          > > Rebazar while on his "2nd" visit to
                                          > > India. See, the timeline is off for this
                                          > > ekplanation to be taken seriously as
                                          > > well.
                                          > >
                                          > > Therefore, there is no rational excuse
                                          > > for these inconsistencies except to
                                          > > admit that the "rascal" Twitchell was,
                                          > > once again, "exaggerating" and "twisting
                                          > > facts" as even Klemp has described
                                          > > and said of him. Klemp, years ago,
                                          > > had to admit that Twitchell was a self-
                                          > > promoter and did or said whatever
                                          > > he needed to do ("By Any Means Necessary")
                                          > > in order to get Eckankar off the ground.
                                          > >
                                          > > This is why Klemp, at first, had a
                                          > > difficult job of explaining Twitchell's
                                          > > inconsistencies and needed to keep
                                          > > Eckists confused, busy, and off-balance.
                                          > > Now, Eckists are so brainwashed that
                                          > > Klemp can say whatever in his simple
                                          > > minded redundant versions of feel-good
                                          > > New Age spirituality.
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Prometheus
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > etznab wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar
                                          Tarzs
                                          > > mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme.
                                          Check the
                                          > > index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with
                                          the Master.
                                          > >
                                          > > The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless
                                          region,
                                          > > [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called
                                          THE FACE OF
                                          > > GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying:
                                          [Quoting]
                                          > > "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the
                                          light of
                                          > > God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes
                                          could not look
                                          > > upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean
                                          of Love
                                          > > and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return
                                          in time."
                                          > > (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)
                                          > >
                                          > > Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in
                                          the House
                                          > > of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens.
                                          Ye cannot
                                          > > go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with
                                          my divine
                                          > > self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in
                                          the divine
                                          > > cause!"
                                          > >
                                          > > Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the
                                          Master, has
                                          > > Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting
                                          snippet]:
                                          > >
                                          > > "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in
                                          a
                                          > > mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
                                          > > attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
                                          > > "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
                                          after
                                          > > this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul
                                          reaches
                                          > > the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or
                                          the SUGMAD,
                                          > > the supreme LORD of all that exists."
                                          > >
                                          > > http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html
                                          > >
                                          > > Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the
                                          description
                                          > > slightly:
                                          > >
                                          > > "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the
                                          Sat Nam in
                                          > > a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in
                                          all Sat
                                          > > Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the
                                          three
                                          > > remaining known planes.
                                          > >
                                          > > "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha,
                                          and
                                          > > after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam
                                          Purusha, or
                                          > > lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region
                                          of the
                                          > > nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first
                                          you know
                                          > > about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the
                                          Divine.
                                          > >
                                          > > "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."
                                          > >
                                          > > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                          > >
                                          > > Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is
                                          illustrated (by
                                          > > Paul Twitchell) slightly different.
                                          > >
                                          > > "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam
                                          Lok.
                                          > > Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the
                                          end of its
                                          > > journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the
                                          supreme
                                          > > lord of all that exists."
                                          > >
                                          > > http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html
                                          > >
                                          > > The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok,
                                          Alak Lok,
                                          > > Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with
                                          Ocean of
                                          > > Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip
                                          mention of
                                          > > Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.
                                          > >
                                          > > In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master,
                                          Introduction to
                                          > > Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes
                                          similarly, and
                                          > > in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain
                                          sections from
                                          > > The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:
                                          > >
                                          > > "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit
                                          is
                                          > > expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal,
                                          Nirala,
                                          > > Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
                                          > > Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country
                                          > >
                                          > > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                          > >
                                          > > "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many
                                          words, such
                                          > > as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala,
                                          Anami, Agam,
                                          > > Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar,
                                          Parameshwar,
                                          > > Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters
                                          > >
                                          > > http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html
                                          > >
                                          > > Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent
                                          from the
                                          > > Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR
                                          vs.
                                          > > Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian
                                          Johnson's book,
                                          > > The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The
                                          Far
                                          > > Country, by at least three decades!
                                          > >
                                          > > Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word,
                                          trademarked
                                          > > it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is
                                          somehow more
                                          > > than a paraphrase.
                                          > >
                                          >
                                        • prometheus_973
                                          Hello Etznab and All, It s true that most Eckists have turned a blind eye towards their religion. However, it s done via Klemp s subtle and not so subtle
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Sep 17, 2011
                                            Hello Etznab and All,
                                            It's true that most Eckists have
                                            turned a blind eye towards their
                                            religion. However, it's done via
                                            Klemp's subtle and not so subtle
                                            intimidation tactics such as:

                                            Going to the "inner" to have
                                            one's questions answered...
                                            this is what the more "advanced"
                                            and "enlightened" Eckists do.

                                            Using the Buddha quote of, "Is
                                            it true, is it necessary, is it kind"
                                            this I ask myself before I speak
                                            my mind.

                                            HK writing articles and giving
                                            talks on the negativity of gossip
                                            and how it hinders one's "spiritual"
                                            growth.

                                            Also, there's the unspoken knowledge
                                            that those who ask too many questions,
                                            especially "wrong" questions, will get
                                            Eckists Black Listed on initiations or
                                            to have them slowed down 3-5 years
                                            (on average) longer than normal.

                                            Plus, Eckankar's Higher Initiates
                                            (5-7) are a very passive group
                                            and don't want to question the
                                            foundation of their religion because
                                            things are going okay so why rock
                                            the boat? Being an H.I. is an ego
                                            trip and a security blanket too.

                                            And, let's face it, most Eckists don't
                                            have the time or inclination to research
                                            the old, P.T., Eckankar texts. They've
                                            read it all before so why go back and
                                            read it with new eyes and a changed
                                            consciousness? However, it does make
                                            one wonder why they've allowed them-
                                            selves to be shackled to HK's dogma
                                            when it's all based upon Twitchell's
                                            "compilation."

                                            In PT's Eckankar Dictionary, Shariyat
                                            One and HK's First Lexicon, they
                                            tell about the first "root race" called
                                            the "POLARIANS." Klemp must agree
                                            with Twitchell on this dogmatic information
                                            since he put it into his own Eckankar
                                            Lexicon.

                                            But, do Eckists really believe in the
                                            Old Testament Christian Myth about
                                            the Garden of Eden? Actually, no,
                                            they don't! I've even read where
                                            they've made fun of this. How ironic!
                                            Twitchell not only states that the
                                            Garden of Eden existed but gives
                                            his own (revised) names of those
                                            present. In the ECK version Adam
                                            becomes "Adom" and Eve becomes
                                            "Ede" (like in Eden) This is, of course,
                                            a clear picture of how Twitchell created
                                            Eckankar. He took certain words,
                                            names, and information changed
                                            the text and letters around, or added
                                            and omitted letters, and made the
                                            info his own.

                                            What's really funny is that in defense
                                            of Twitchell Klemp has claimed that
                                            Paul "compiled" only the highest teachings
                                            from around the world in order to
                                            create the highest "spiritual" teaching
                                            anywhere and at anytime. Why then,
                                            did Twitchell use the Garden of Eden
                                            myth, and create Adom and Ede?
                                            Is this supposed to be the actual
                                            account while the Christian version
                                            is less accurate. This is how Eckists
                                            rationalize and explain everything
                                            (the truth) away. ECK is a facsimile
                                            and everything else is a copy. But
                                            this shows that all religions are
                                            distorted and inaccurate copies.

                                            It really should be embarrassing,
                                            for Eckists, since this information
                                            is listed in their first Holy Book
                                            under Polarian race (check the
                                            index for the page number).

                                            Plus, let's face it. This Garden
                                            of Eden myth is a non-evolutionary
                                            belief. It was devised during
                                            a time of ignorance and pre-science
                                            in order to give a religious explanation
                                            for creation. And, it's been revised
                                            even by early Christianity because
                                            Lillith was supposed to have been
                                            Adam's first mate who was created
                                            equally with him.

                                            Later, the creation myth story was
                                            changed so that Eve was created
                                            from Adam's rib in order to make
                                            her subservient to him... as Eckists
                                            are to subservient to Klemp. Thus,
                                            no female LEMs and even Mahantas
                                            are permitted due to some hokey
                                            negative atom ekplanation.


                                            But, Eckists are in denial of the truth
                                            as they continue to pretend they
                                            are advanced Souls. The mind is
                                            very powerful and that's why Eckankar
                                            appears to work for Eckists. The
                                            mind will give one the dreams
                                            and "signs" that are programmed
                                            into it via suggestion and expectation.
                                            However, isn't this the modus
                                            operandi of all religions? If one
                                            just Googles "miracles" one can
                                            see examples of faith and belief
                                            that would put any Eckist to shame.

                                            Therefore, why do Eckists not
                                            see the truth? Is it that they
                                            have tied up their camels, to
                                            a fraudent belief, and now, trust
                                            in a make believe God/Mahanta...
                                            Klemp? It is the Easy Way!

                                            Prometheus




                                            etznab@... wrote:
                                            I think a lot of people can overlook this stuff, thinking that whatever
                                            Paul Twitchell said/wrote must be the truth. Some people just might not
                                            care. Well, it's reasonable to suspect this talent - for promotion,
                                            even when it means making things up, stretching the truth, or just
                                            plain spinning lies - was used to "create" the Eckankar mythos.

                                            myth

                                            1830, from Gk. mythos "speech, thought, story, myth," of unknown origin.

                                            Myths are "stories about divine beings, generally arranged in a
                                            coherent system; they are revered as true and sacred; they are endorsed
                                            by rulers and priests; and closely linked to religion. Once this link
                                            is broken, and the actors in the story are not regarded as gods but as
                                            human heroes, giants or fairies, it is no longer a myth but a folktale.
                                            Where the central actor is divine but the story is trivial ... the
                                            result is religious legend, not myth." [J. Simpson & S. Roud,
                                            "Dictionary of English Folklore," Oxford, 2000, p.254]

                                            General sense of "untrue story, rumor" is from 1840.

                                            http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=mythos&searchmode=\
                                            \
                                            none

                                            In other words, amid all the compilations and recycled material, etc.,
                                            context has been changed (in various places) when it comes to source. I
                                            wonder, could Paul Twitchell have created "Eckankar" and at the same
                                            time given the source for all of his material? I noticed Kirpal Singh
                                            and others were very good at citing references and sharing what
                                            quote/saying came from who. So if Paul Twitchell ever chose to use
                                            passages and paragraphs from books, Did he always feel obligated to
                                            provide that information?

                                            As a promoter, I suspect the person wants to give credit to whatever
                                            they're promoting and not give more credit to "other products" instead.
                                            It makes sense (to me) that Paul Twitchell would "paint the name
                                            Eckankar" over so much material he had read (in so many words). Not
                                            only this, but it even appears probable that Paul Twitchell took
                                            liberty to respell and redefine words according to fit them in a new,
                                            and growing, Eckankar philosophy. Not only words, but names too!

                                            How extensive the promotion and PR campaign that created contemporary
                                            Eckankar teaching? In so many ways, it seems this is the part that
                                            doesn't agree with people. Not unless they knew from the beginning that
                                            information was not necessarily accurate and in some places embellished.

                                            embellish

                                            mid-14c., "to render beautiful," from O.Fr. embelliss-, stem of
                                            embellir "make beautiful, ornament," from em- (see en- (1)) + bel
                                            "beautiful," from L. bellus (see bene-). Meaning "dress up (a
                                            narration) with fictitious matter" is from mid-15c. Related:
                                            Embellished; embellishing.

                                            http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=embellished&search\
                                            \
                                            mode=none

                                            Reading through early Eckankar books I think common sense might tell a
                                            person that parts of the material was embellished. At the same time I
                                            also think people could naturally so much want the material to be true
                                            that they allow imagination to "make it so" and overrule common sense.

                                            Ever observe what happens when you're part of a group where countless
                                            individuals believe in things - through imagination - that aren't
                                            necessarily true? I mean, when you're one of the unbelievers and part
                                            of the minority who question whether so many imagined things are true?


                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                                            <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Sent: Sat, Sep 17, 2011 2:14 am
                                            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: "The Dark Side of ECKankar" -
                                            And More!

                                            Â
                                            Hello Etznab and All,
                                            This tells how Paul Twitchell
                                            was His Own Drum Beater:

                                            http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html

                                            What's interesting is that at age 27 (1935)
                                            Twitchell was saying that he had been
                                            to India (supposedly at age 15 to meet
                                            Rebazar for the first time, DOBTLEM).
                                            However, Klemp points out that Twitchell
                                            was doing another self-promotion, and
                                            was lying in order to get into Who's Who
                                            in Kentucky. Klemp states that Twitchell
                                            had never been all that far from home
                                            at age 27. Klemp seems to have stepped
                                            into a big pile of Twits mess. HK's
                                            statement contradicts what Twitchell
                                            revealed in Difficulties of Becoming the
                                            Living ECK Master circa July, 1971. This
                                            1971 date is, supposedly, long after Twitchell
                                            (the Mahanta) was was no longer "exaggerating"
                                            and "twisting facts." However, as Klemp
                                            has pointed out Twitchell was still lying
                                            and promoting his con up until his untimely
                                            and death in September, 1971.

                                            Prometheus

                                            etznab@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Almost didn't see this response because the e-mail bounced.
                                            >
                                            > Umm ... about the self-promotion, whatever, people can read about
                                            some of the history here.
                                            >
                                            > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html
                                            >
                                            > Check out 4th paragraph of article entitled: Paul's Seal of
                                            Approval.
                                            >
                                            > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                                            "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > Hello Etznab and All,
                                            > > It is interesting that Twitchell
                                            > > has his Rebazar character (the
                                            > > "Master" who initiated him)
                                            > > indicate that there were 8 Planes
                                            > > just as Radhasomi and Ruhani
                                            > > Satsang have listed in "The Path
                                            > > of the Masters." Since Kirpal
                                            > > Singh, of Ruhani Satsang, was
                                            > > Paul's real life Master for ten years
                                            > > it's no wonder that this dogma was
                                            > > influential in the design of Eckankar.
                                            > >
                                            > > Of course, Twitchell was constantly
                                            > > tweaking, revising, and masking his
                                            > > religious con as time went by.
                                            > >
                                            > > The Anami Lok (10th Plane where
                                            > > "Sugmad" resides) didn't appear until
                                            > > later. Did Rebazar simply forget to
                                            > > mention this as well as the "Mahanta?"
                                            > > Did RT think that Paul needed to be
                                            > > spoon-fed and wasn't ready for this
                                            > > advanced "spiritual" info? No, not really.
                                            > > According to Twitchell he had been
                                            > > given the 12th and "final initiation"
                                            > > (to become LEM) back in 1951 by
                                            > > Rebazar while on his "2nd" visit to
                                            > > India. See, the timeline is off for this
                                            > > ekplanation to be taken seriously as
                                            > > well.
                                            > >
                                            > > Therefore, there is no rational excuse
                                            > > for these inconsistencies except to
                                            > > admit that the "rascal" Twitchell was,
                                            > > once again, "exaggerating" and "twisting
                                            > > facts" as even Klemp has described
                                            > > and said of him. Klemp, years ago,
                                            > > had to admit that Twitchell was a self-
                                            > > promoter and did or said whatever
                                            > > he needed to do ("By Any Means Necessary")
                                            > > in order to get Eckankar off the ground.
                                            > >
                                            > > This is why Klemp, at first, had a
                                            > > difficult job of explaining Twitchell's
                                            > > inconsistencies and needed to keep
                                            > > Eckists confused, busy, and off-balance.
                                            > > Now, Eckists are so brainwashed that
                                            > > Klemp can say whatever in his simple
                                            > > minded redundant versions of feel-good
                                            > > New Age spirituality.
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > Prometheus
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > etznab wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar
                                            Tarzs
                                            > > mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme.
                                            Check the
                                            > > index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with
                                            the Master.
                                            > >
                                            > > The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless
                                            region,
                                            > > [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called
                                            THE FACE OF
                                            > > GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying:
                                            [Quoting]
                                            > > "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the
                                            light of
                                            > > God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes
                                            could not look
                                            > > upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean
                                            of Love
                                            > > and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return
                                            in time."
                                            > > (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)
                                            > >
                                            > > Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in
                                            the House
                                            > > of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens.
                                            Ye cannot
                                            > > go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with
                                            my divine
                                            > > self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in
                                            the divine
                                            > > cause!"
                                            > >
                                            > > Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the
                                            Master, has
                                            > > Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting
                                            snippet]:
                                            > >
                                            > > "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in
                                            a
                                            > > mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
                                            > > attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
                                            > > "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
                                            after
                                            > > this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul
                                            reaches
                                            > > the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or
                                            the SUGMAD,
                                            > > the supreme LORD of all that exists."
                                            > >
                                            > > http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html
                                            > >
                                            > > Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the
                                            description
                                            > > slightly:
                                            > >
                                            > > "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the
                                            Sat Nam in
                                            > > a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in
                                            all Sat
                                            > > Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the
                                            three
                                            > > remaining known planes.
                                            > >
                                            > > "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha,
                                            and
                                            > > after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam
                                            Purusha, or
                                            > > lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region
                                            of the
                                            > > nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first
                                            you know
                                            > > about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the
                                            Divine.
                                            > >
                                            > > "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."
                                            > >
                                            > > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                            > >
                                            > > Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is
                                            illustrated (by
                                            > > Paul Twitchell) slightly different.
                                            > >
                                            > > "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam
                                            Lok.
                                            > > Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the
                                            end of its
                                            > > journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the
                                            supreme
                                            > > lord of all that exists."
                                            > >
                                            > > http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html
                                            > >
                                            > > The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok,
                                            Alak Lok,
                                            > > Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with
                                            Ocean of
                                            > > Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip
                                            mention of
                                            > > Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.
                                            > >
                                            > > In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master,
                                            Introduction to
                                            > > Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes
                                            similarly, and
                                            > > in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain
                                            sections from
                                            > > The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:
                                            > >
                                            > > "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit
                                            is
                                            > > expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal,
                                            Nirala,
                                            > > Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
                                            > > Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country
                                            > >
                                            > > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                            > >
                                            > > "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many
                                            words, such
                                            > > as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala,
                                            Anami, Agam,
                                            > > Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar,
                                            Parameshwar,
                                            > > Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters
                                            > >
                                            > > http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html
                                            > >
                                            > > Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent
                                            from the
                                            > > Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR
                                            vs.
                                            > > Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian
                                            Johnson's book,
                                            > > The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The
                                            Far
                                            > > Country, by at least three decades!
                                            > >
                                            > > Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word,
                                            trademarked
                                            > > it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is
                                            somehow more
                                            > > than a paraphrase.
                                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.