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Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] "The Dark Side of ECKankar"

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  • etznab@aol.com
    You were referring to: The DARK SIDE of ECKANKAR by Ruth and Noah Samuelson. I believe it s necessary to mention that. Along with a link.
    Message 1 of 24 , Feb 12, 2011
      You were referring to: The DARK SIDE of ECKANKAR by Ruth and Noah
      Samuelson. I believe it's necessary to mention that. Along with a link.

      http://www.scribd.com/doc/8967961/The-DARK-SIDE-of-ECKANKAR-by-Ruth-and-Noah-Samuelson

      Evidently, this was not a paper written by members of this group. And I
      doubt they are / were ever members of Eckankar.

      This literature by the Samuelson's was mentioned on a website called
      eckankartruth as early as October 10th, 2008. I don't know when the
      subject might have been discussed here at ESA. You can do a search on
      both sites, however, and maybe find some of the feedback you're looking
      for there.

      If it's something that you are really interested in, maybe check what
      already has been said about it first.

      -----Original Message-----
      From: starshine917 <rblustar@...>
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
      <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:45 am
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] "The Dark Side of ECKankar"

       
      I recently read "The Dark Side of ECKankar" from your web site.
      Needless to say I was shocked because I am currently an ECKist. I'm
      interested to know why the information presented was concluded as it
      was in representation of something so dark, and fear based. These are
      pretty serious allegations.

      I'd like for you to reach out to me via email because I'm interested in
      further investigation but only if that is acceptable to you. I'd like
      to stick to the facts and evidence.
    • etznab@aol.com
      A lot of religious dogma consists of legends, myths and fables. IMO. Any fables included in the Eckankar dogma prior to the current leadership could be hard to
      Message 2 of 24 , Feb 12, 2011
        A lot of religious dogma consists of legends,
        myths and fables. IMO.

        Any fables included in the Eckankar dogma
        prior to the current leadership could be hard
        to extract from official dogma. IMO. Granted
        they would be well known via books & talks
        over the years. And they could be believed -
        even literally - by hundreds, or thousands of
        people.

        Here is something the current leader said in
        the early 1980's after becoming the L.E.M.

        "Paul [Paul Twitchell] encouraged people to
        read The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad and make their
        own study. He never said to take the words as
        holy, as the last word. You take the words and
        check out the teachings from within. You ask:
        Does this work for me or doesn't it? You have
        to know. [....]"

        http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/writings.html#ideal

        This was around the time where Harold Klemp
        started talking about Death of an Ideal.

        If a person turns to the introduction section for
        The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, Vol. 1, they can read
        what Paul Twitchell said, compare it with what
        Harold Klemp said, and judge for theirself.

        IMO, fables abound in the Eckankar writings.
        Even in the Shariyat. The challenge comes if
        a person wants to know fact from fiction. The
        creator, author necessary to determine where
        it came from.

        Paul Twitchell was already deceased by the
        time I ever heard of Eckankar. And after him
        Darwin Gross was sent packing (iow). The
        wife of them both is where? I don't know. So
        the people who originally crafted the legends,
        myth, fables, etc., into "Eckankar" writings
        (and those who knew about the crafting) are
        not easy to come by, if you ask me. Neither
        are the original manuscripts and early books
        by Paul Twitchell & Eckankar.

        This is what is necessary, though, for a true
        record of fabrications (IMO). And even after
        the eye-witnesses, or those in the know are
        summoned, things would depend on whether
        they told the truth about what they know!

        Will it ever happen? Will religions (including
        "Eckankar") admit where the fictional parts
        of their teachings came from? Separating
        fact from fiction (with clarity), for the benefit
        of all members who desire the truth? Will we
        ever see the old original manuscripts?

        What happens when the "creators" - and no
        matter who they are - What happens when
        some of the material was borrowed from an-
        other source? Another who borrowed it from
        another before them? And on and on? with
        each writer / religion changing the story at
        will? How does locate the truth in that case?
        Via imagination? :) :) :)

        So not all of the stories are traceable to orig-
        inal sources. IMO. However, many of them
        are. Especially considering a young vs. old
        religion.

        Add to this all of the writers adding more
        "fabulous" material to the history of religion,
        the spin-off groups, etc. etc. and it becomes
        a real miasma.






        -----Original Message-----
        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
        <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:27 am
        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: "The Dark Side of ECKankar"

         
        Hello and welcome to the group,

        First, I don't believe in demonic possession.
        This link was put up because it's another
        perspective of Eckankar. Take it with a grain
        of salt. But, the article does bring up some
        interesting topics and perspectives.

        For one thing it mentions that Darwin Gross
        was Klemp's (our) Master for ten years and
        yet his name is/was forbidden to speak. Plus,
        Klemp never mentioned Gross' death, although,
        he was an ECK Master, passed Harry the Rod,
        and was the 972nd (2nd) LEM, thus, making
        HK the 973rd (3rd) LEM.

        Anyway, why pick and choose this one article?
        How about the other Messages and dialogue?
        Did you read the FILES or look at the other LINKS?

        When you've looked at a few these other sources
        of information perhaps you can pose some questions
        pertaining to what we've written or commented upon?

        BTW-Mahanta means "missionary head." It was
        an obscure word that Twit found and decided
        to use for his newly created title.

        I didn't read the entire article of "The Dark Side
        of Eckankar" because much of it, IMO, is some
        sort of a fanatical exaggeration. Eckankar is
        merely a fraud and another religious scam for
        weak minded individuals and needs no "demonizing."
        The Truth is Klemp's real enemy, but who can
        disprove religious B.S. when people desperately
        need to believe. Everyone needs hope, but religions
        abuse and distort for profit and power.

        What do you think of that Negative Atom/Battery
        excuse as to why females can't become the LEM?
        Isn't this another silly excuse to keep women in
        their place? Sure! And, yet, look at how stupid this
        ekplanation is... but it's accepted. What else is a
        lie? Actually, everything!

        Prometheus

        Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
        >
        > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those
        of you who are
        > searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for
        sharing your
        > findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the
        "light" of critical
        > thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar. I am
        not here to
        > defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues. We are
        all
        > affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
        have allot to
        > bring to the table.
        >  
        > I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique
        used in this paper
        > called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links"
        in this web
        > site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of
        challenge because I'd
        > raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this
        paper as
        > well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be
        painted with
        > complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of
        critical
        > thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being
        completely objective.
        > For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack
        ECKankar in this
        > paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they
        originated.
        >  
        > I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure
        is overdo
        > within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is
        based on the
        > facts. I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I
        don't think
        > the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within
        one religious
        > belief system and exchange them for another in the name of
        critical thinking. Do
        > you?
      • prometheus_973
        Hello Etznab and All, The problem with what Klemp said early on about interpreting the Shariyat for yourself, on a Soul level I suppose, is that this changed
        Message 3 of 24 , Feb 12, 2011
          Hello Etznab and All,
          The problem with what Klemp said
          early on about interpreting the Shariyat
          for yourself, on a Soul level I suppose,
          is that this changed over the years.
          It doesn't matter if you pick and choose
          what works for you because that's not
          how it's done anymore. These are "Holy
          Books" and one can't rewrite or reinterpret
          what an ECK Master wrote unless you
          are an ECK Master... Catch-22! Klemp,
          today, has to approve, in writing
          or in a talk, what anyone can believe
          or say officially. Everything, now, is
          regulated with Guidelines including
          EWS topics.

          ECKists can't share their dreams if that
          dream would contradict EK Dogma or
          (seemingly) challenge HK's authority
          or his opinions etc. Look at what happened
          to Graham. He had a dream where a
          Silent One allowed him to hold the Rod
          of ECK Power. This infuriated Klemp and
          Graham was demoted to a 1st Initiate
          and Ford was disciplined for bringing
          this matter to Klemp's attention in the
          first place. However, Klemp has always
          had a temper and been a poor sport
          and has found it difficult to let go of
          anger. This is why HK never forgave
          Darwin and didn't mention his death.
          Even to this day Klemp can't deal with
          his anger and tends to hold onto grudges.

          What's really amusing is that Klemp took
          the bait in regards to Graham and over-
          reacted as Ford surmised he would. If
          Klemp had just ignored it or said that
          Graham was mistaken with what had
          happened or that the "Rod" was a mock
          up etc. or was a symbol of something else
          blah blah blah then that would have been
          the end of it. Plus, Graham was a bit out-
          of-balance to begin with so no harm no foul.
          But, that's not how it played out because
          Klemp is a Spiritual fraud and conman much
          like his Christian counterparts are of course.

          Prometheus

          etznab wrote:

          A lot of religious dogma consists of legends,
          myths and fables. IMO.

          Any fables included in the Eckankar dogma
          prior to the current leadership could be hard
          to extract from official dogma. IMO. Granted
          they would be well known via books & talks
          over the years. And they could be believed -
          even literally - by hundreds, or thousands of
          people.

          Here is something the current leader said in
          the early 1980's after becoming the L.E.M.

          "Paul [Paul Twitchell] encouraged people to
          read The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad and make their
          own study. He never said to take the words as
          holy, as the last word. You take the words and
          check out the teachings from within. You ask:
          Does this work for me or doesn't it? You have
          to know. [....]"

          http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/writings.html#ideal

          This was around the time where Harold Klemp
          started talking about Death of an Ideal.

          If a person turns to the introduction section for
          The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, Vol. 1, they can read
          what Paul Twitchell said, compare it with what
          Harold Klemp said, and judge for theirself.

          IMO, fables abound in the Eckankar writings.
          Even in the Shariyat. The challenge comes if
          a person wants to know fact from fiction. The
          creator, author necessary to determine where
          it came from.

          Paul Twitchell was already deceased by the
          time I ever heard of Eckankar. And after him
          Darwin Gross was sent packing (iow). The
          wife of them both is where? I don't know. So
          the people who originally crafted the legends,
          myth, fables, etc., into "Eckankar" writings
          (and those who knew about the crafting) are
          not easy to come by, if you ask me. Neither
          are the original manuscripts and early books
          by Paul Twitchell & Eckankar.

          This is what is necessary, though, for a true
          record of fabrications (IMO). And even after
          the eye-witnesses, or those in the know are
          summoned, things would depend on whether
          they told the truth about what they know!

          Will it ever happen? Will religions (including
          "Eckankar") admit where the fictional parts
          of their teachings came from? Separating
          fact from fiction (with clarity), for the benefit
          of all members who desire the truth? Will we
          ever see the old original manuscripts?

          What happens when the "creators" - and no
          matter who they are - What happens when
          some of the material was borrowed from an-
          other source? Another who borrowed it from
          another before them? And on and on? with
          each writer / religion changing the story at
          will? How does locate the truth in that case?
          Via imagination? :) :) :)

          So not all of the stories are traceable to orig-
          inal sources. IMO. However, many of them
          are. Especially considering a young vs. old
          religion.

          Add to this all of the writers adding more
          "fabulous" material to the history of religion,
          the spin-off groups, etc. etc. and it becomes
          a real miasma.






          prometheus wrote:
          Hello and welcome to the group,

          First, I don't believe in demonic possession.
          This link was put up because it's another
          perspective of Eckankar. Take it with a grain
          of salt. But, the article does bring up some
          interesting topics and perspectives.

          For one thing it mentions that Darwin Gross
          was Klemp's (our) Master for ten years and
          yet his name is/was forbidden to speak. Plus,
          Klemp never mentioned Gross' death, although,
          he was an ECK Master, passed Harry the Rod,
          and was the 972nd (2nd) LEM, thus, making
          HK the 973rd (3rd) LEM.

          Anyway, why pick and choose this one article?
          How about the other Messages and dialogue?
          Did you read the FILES or look at the other LINKS?

          When you've looked at a few these other sources
          of information perhaps you can pose some questions
          pertaining to what we've written or commented upon?

          BTW-Mahanta means "missionary head." It was
          an obscure word that Twit found and decided
          to use for his newly created title.

          I didn't read the entire article of "The Dark Side
          of Eckankar" because much of it, IMO, is some
          sort of a fanatical exaggeration. Eckankar is
          merely a fraud and another religious scam for
          weak minded individuals and needs no "demonizing."
          The Truth is Klemp's real enemy, but who can
          disprove religious B.S. when people desperately
          need to believe. Everyone needs hope, but religions
          abuse and distort for profit and power.

          What do you think of that Negative Atom/Battery
          excuse as to why females can't become the LEM?
          Isn't this another silly excuse to keep women in
          their place? Sure! And, yet, look at how stupid this
          ekplanation is... but it's accepted. What else is a
          lie? Actually, everything!

          Prometheus

          Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
          >
          > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those
          of you who are
          > searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for
          sharing your
          > findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the
          "light"Â of critical
          > thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar. I am
          not here to
          > defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues. We are
          all
          > affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
          have allot to
          > bring to the table.
          > Â
          > I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique
          used in this paper
          > called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links"
          in this web
          > site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of
          challenge because I'd
          > raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this
          paper as
          > well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be
          painted with
          > complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of
          critical
          > thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being
          completely objective.
          > For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack
          ECKankar in this
          > paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they
          originated.
          > Â
          > I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure
          is overdo
          > within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is
          based on the
          > facts. I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I
          don't think
          > the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within
          one religious
          > belief system and exchange them for another in the name of
          critical thinking. Do
          > you?
        • dianastanley43
          Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from personal
          Message 4 of 24 , Feb 13, 2011
            Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time. If it is hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew and was their experience I also say.
            Diana Stanley

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Rosemarie Bucci <rblustar@...> wrote:
            >
            > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who are
            > searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
            > findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
            > thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar. I am not here to
            > defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues. We are all
            > affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we have allot to
            > bring to the table.
            >  
            > I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
            > called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
            > site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because I'd
            > raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
            > well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
            > complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
            > thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely objective.
            > For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
            > paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
            >  
            > I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
            > within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on the
            > facts. I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
            > the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
            > belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking. Do
            > you?
            >
            >
            >
            > ____________________________________________________________________________________
            > Looking for earth-friendly autos?
            > Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.
            > http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
            >
          • prometheus_973
            Hello Rosemarie, There will be no email debate or ekplanation of this article. I don t agree with it entirely, but there are real facts and evidence,
            Message 5 of 24 , Feb 13, 2011
              Hello Rosemarie,
              There will be no email debate or ekplanation
              of this article. I don't agree with it entirely,
              but there are real facts and evidence, elsewhere,
              that shows Eckankar is "dark and fear based."

              After all, Klemp was/is the real "Black Magician"
              versus Darwin Gross.

              Read Chapter 7 of "Soul Travelers of the Far
              Country," if you can find the book, and you
              will see Klemp's ego speaking and how that
              he repeatedly states that he worked in a Sound
              Proof Dark Room at the ESC. And, it was Klemp's
              idea for Darwin to meet with him, in private,
              in the Sound Proof Dark Room (in the photo
              department) where Klemp worked daily. Darwin
              "hesitated" [pg.409 Autobiography of a Modern
              Prophet] to meet there when Klemp suggested
              that they should talk in private in the Dark Room
              that was also Sound Proofed (by the last building
              owner). Thus, it was symbolic that the ECK (Light
              & Sound) was Not present during the discussion
              of Klemp's transition to become the 973rd LEM.
              It's absence, the ECK, was due to Klemp and Not
              to Darwin. Thus, Klemp was looking into the mirror
              when he, later, referred to Darwin as being the
              Black Magician. And, not being able to forgive
              Darwin for his imperfections, even after all of
              these years, is more proof that Klemp is holding
              onto Negativity and this is evidence that he is
              of the KAL and is a Liar, Trickster, Deceiver,
              and, thus, a Black Magician!

              Most of the "fear" inside Eckankar comes via
              the RESA structure. ECKists fear that they can
              be Black Listed on Initiations by giving their
              real opinions and impressions of Klemp's
              articles and of the strict Guidelines they are
              to follow without question. They can't criticize
              (even constructively) because this is seen as
              negativity and that is of the KAL. Except, they
              forget, the KAL is the ruler of the Lower Planes
              (assigned by Sugmad) and Eckankar is a 1st
              Physical Plane religion/organization and is
              based upon, written, Mental Plane books,
              talks, rules & laws, guidelines, discourses,
              etc.

              Plus, "questions" are also discouraged as well.
              ECKists are to take it to the "inner" if they have
              too many questions, but the Catch-22 is that
              their "inner (Soul) answers" have to comply with
              the Lower Plane outer limitations of the EK Dogma,
              the scrutiny of the RESA, and of the EK Guidelines.
              Basically, an ECKist (Soul) cannot have an "official"
              opinion or a "valid" spiritual experience (that can
              be shared in public), unless, Klemp gives his verbal
              or written approval. As I pointed out before, look
              at what happened to Graham. He had a dream where
              a Silent One showed up and Graham HUed to verify
              that this was a Silent One and not an Astral entity
              playing tricks upon him. The Silent One passed the
              HU test and told Graham his name and then allowed
              Graham to hold the Rod of ECK Power to see how it
              felt. However, Klemp had a problem with this "dream"
              and felt threatened by this new Third Initiate. LOL!
              Thus, Klemp demoted Graham to a 1st Initiate for
              sharing his "dream" with others! Graham wasn't trying
              to take over or to challenge Klemp... it was just
              a dream! It wasn't his fault for having such a dream
              was it? What if other ECKists had a similar dream?
              Now, they all know Not to share it, don't they, for fear
              of being demoted!


              Prometheus

              starshine wrote:

              I recently read "The Dark Side of ECKankar" from your web site. Needless to say
              I was shocked because I am currently an ECKist. I'm interested to know why the
              information presented was concluded as it was in representation of something so
              dark, and fear based. These are pretty serious allegations.

              I'd like for you to reach out to me via email because I'm interested in further
              investigation but only if that is acceptable to you. I'd like to stick to the
              facts and evidence.
            • Rosemarie Bucci
              Hi Diana, I ve had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this path. I have read David Lane s book and Ford Johnson s book as
              Message 6 of 24 , Feb 14, 2011
                Hi Diana,
                I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth is truth and will always be the truth.
                 
                I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember, we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
                 
                I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must be brave and remain in truth.
                Thank you for getting back to me.
                Rosemarie


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              • prometheus_973
                Hello Rosemarie, I am a seeker of Truth as well. And yes, this article on The Dark Side of Eckankar is inaccurate, but there is a dark side to Eckankar and
                Message 7 of 24 , Feb 15, 2011
                  Hello Rosemarie,
                  I am a seeker of Truth as well.
                  And yes, this article on "The Dark
                  Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
                  there is a dark side to Eckankar and
                  there is also fear.

                  I find it interesting that you've
                  read (and I assume have contemplated
                  upon) David Lane's research as well as
                  Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
                  and have, still, remained an ECKist.

                  What happened to your "critical thinking?"
                  Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
                  you agree with some of it but not all of
                  it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
                  I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
                  isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
                  what they believe than any other religion
                  they've found. Is that the case with you?

                  I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
                  book, threw it away (because of the bad
                  vibes), and then placed themselves upon
                  pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
                  and talk Eckists through their doubts and
                  concerns.

                  You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
                  not all truth is the same. That's why there
                  are so many churches. People are social
                  animals and tend to seek out others with
                  similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
                  to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
                  to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
                  and a test for Soul.

                  I also got the impression that you don't
                  participate much within the RESA structure.
                  Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
                  Do you know that you have to watch what
                  you say? You've observed and learned that
                  correct? You do care about being promoted
                  to that next initiation right?

                  Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
                  take on the subjects that we've been discussing
                  here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
                  lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
                  for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
                  Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
                  when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
                  "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
                  detectors just for his talk?

                  You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues. 
                  We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
                  at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."

                  BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
                  read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?

                  Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
                  the table.

                  Prometheus

                  rosemarie wrote:
                  Hi Diana,

                  I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth is truth and will always be the truth.

                  I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember, we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.

                  I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must be brave and remain in truth.

                  Thank you for getting back to me.
                  Rosemarie


                  dianastanley wrote:

                  Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time. If it is hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew and was their experience I also say.

                  Diana Stanley

                  Rosemarie Bucci wrote:

                  I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who are
                  searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
                  findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
                  thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.

                  I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues. 
                  We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
                  have allot to bring to the table.
                   
                  I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
                  called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
                  site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because I'd
                  raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
                  well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
                  complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
                  thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely objective.
                  For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
                  paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
                   
                  I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
                  within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on the
                  facts.

                  I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
                  the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
                  belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking.
                  Do you?
                • dianastanley43
                  Rosemarie you are quite right. I started with Eckankar and ended up studing quantum Physics What I finally came to the conclusion of was if you were sitting in
                  Message 8 of 24 , Feb 17, 2011
                    Rosemarie you are quite right. I started with Eckankar and ended up studing quantum Physics What I finally came to the conclusion of was if you were sitting in you living room you didn't need a spiritual path to find your living room. It has not been an easy journy as I was loath to give up the idea of the mystical and magical and I traveled many paths in the 30 yrs after leaving Eckankar. One day I read a quote that changed my belief system of years. "God did'nt create the universe God became the universe. It's interesting that when the time is right I might understand something that a few yrs earlier would not have ment anything.
                    Diana

                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Rosemarie Bucci <rblustar@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi Diana,
                    > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this
                    > path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been
                    > to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that
                    > honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth
                    > is truth and will always be the truth.
                    >
                    >  
                    > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we
                    > follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching
                    > which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember,
                    > we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to
                    > bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
                    >
                    >  
                    > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts
                    > sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must
                    > be brave and remain in truth.
                    > Thank you for gettingback to me.
                    > Rosemarie
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ____________________________________________________________________________________
                    > It's here! Your new message!
                    > Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar.
                    > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/
                    >
                  • Avonblue
                    Diana and All, I came to eckankar back in the 70 s because I felt religion was an abomination and the lure of free exploration of our spiritual self was truly
                    Message 9 of 24 , Feb 18, 2011
                      Diana and All,

                      I came to eckankar back in the 70's because I felt religion was an abomination and the lure of free exploration of our spiritual self was truly revolutionary. Eckankar eventually failed to be the magical mystical carpet ride it was purported to be but instead a rehash and reinvention of eastern and western mumbo jumbo recreated by a charlatan. I too have explored quantum physics and especially the advances in neuroscience over the past several years and have come to the belief that "spirituality" and for the that matter "god" is nothing more than misunderstood and undiscovered as of yet science.

                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "dianastanley43" <dianastanley43@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Rosemarie you are quite right. I started with Eckankar and ended up studing quantum Physics What I finally came to the conclusion of was if you were sitting in you living room you didn't need a spiritual path to find your living room. It has not been an easy journy as I was loath to give up the idea of the mystical and magical and I traveled many paths in the 30 yrs after leaving Eckankar. One day I read a quote that changed my belief system of years. "God did'nt create the universe God became the universe. It's interesting that when the time is right I might understand something that a few yrs earlier would not have ment anything.
                      > Diana
                      >
                      > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Rosemarie Bucci <rblustar@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hi Diana,
                      > > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this
                      > > path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been
                      > > to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that
                      > > honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth
                      > > is truth and will always be the truth.
                      > >
                      > >  
                      > > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we
                      > > follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching
                      > > which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember,
                      > > we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to
                      > > bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
                      > >
                      > >  
                      > > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts
                      > > sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must
                      > > be brave and remain in truth.
                      > > Thank you for gettingback to me.
                      > > Rosemarie
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ____________________________________________________________________________________
                      > > It's here! Your new message!
                      > > Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar.
                      > > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/
                      > >
                      >
                    • prometheus_973
                      Hello Avonblue and All, I was first introduced to the quantum physics/mechanics/ field theory scam via Maharishi of TM fame. Adam Dreamhealer and many other
                      Message 10 of 24 , Feb 21, 2011
                        Hello Avonblue and All,
                        I was first introduced to the
                        "quantum physics/mechanics/
                        field theory" scam via Maharishi
                        of TM fame. Adam Dreamhealer
                        and many other scammers have
                        used and abused this theory
                        to explain how their brand of
                        whatever works. I'm surprised
                        that Klemp hasn't used this hook
                        in order to combine science and
                        spirituality.

                        It is quite interesting how Klemp
                        gradually became "the" God/Mahanta.

                        And, even though he has stated,
                        "don't worship me" he has Eckists
                        stare at his picture and chant HU.

                        Plus, he has them dream of him
                        and beseech him with requests,
                        questions, help, protection, and
                        for healing. So, HK instructs Eckists
                        to pray to him (the Mahanta), but
                        says he's not to be worshipped.
                        How's that work? Of course he's
                        worshipped!

                        And, who or what is "worshipped" by
                        Eckists at ECK Worship Services (EWS)?
                        Is it the ECK? Klemp claims to be that
                        too, or is it the Mahanta or both?
                        So, on the "outer" Klemp is the leader
                        (LEM) of Eckankar and on the "inner"
                        he claims to be the ECK and the Mahanta.
                        But wouldn't he, also, be the ECK and
                        the Mahanta on the "outer" as well?
                        This is where/how Klemp tricks ECKists
                        into worshipping him. He's everything
                        and claims to be levels higher than the
                        God that other religions worship. Yet,
                        just like Twitchell fooled people, Klemp
                        does the same. Telling ECKists not to
                        worship him is a disclaimer so that he
                        can avoid responsibility.

                        It's really laughable that older ECKists
                        turned their backs on the religion of
                        their parents because "God" never answered
                        their prayers, etc. Now, they've substituted
                        Klemp for Jesus or Moses or who and what
                        ever. How stupid is that!

                        Strange that Sugmad isn't worshipped
                        at these EWS events and neither is God.
                        God is discussed some, but a real Eckist
                        knows that "God" is code for the Mahanta,
                        or the KAL, it depends. So, who/what is
                        worshipped? The ECK? That's Klemp too!
                        Klemp, in one way or the other is always
                        the main focus! Really, who does the Mahanta
                        look like? And, yet, do Eckists really think
                        about what they are really doing when they
                        worship, pray HU, contemplate upon, dream,
                        and beseech "the" Mahanta/ECK (Klemp)
                        for help? Apparently not!

                        Prometheus


                        Avonblue wrote:
                        Diana and All,

                        I came to eckankar back in the 70's because I felt religion was an abomination
                        and the lure of free exploration of our spiritual self was truly revolutionary.
                        Eckankar eventually failed to be the magical mystical carpet ride it was
                        purported to be but instead a rehash and reinvention of eastern and western
                        mumbo jumbo recreated by a charlatan. I too have explored quantum physics and
                        especially the advances in neuroscience over the past several years and have
                        come to the belief that "spirituality" and for the that matter "god" is nothing
                        more than misunderstood and undiscovered as of yet science.

                        dianastanley43"
                        dianastanley43@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Rosemarie you are quite right. I started with Eckankar and ended up studing
                        quantum Physics What I finally came to the conclusion of was if you were sitting
                        in you living room you didn't need a spiritual path to find your living room. It
                        has not been an easy journy as I was loath to give up the idea of the mystical
                        and magical and I traveled many paths in the 30 yrs after leaving Eckankar. One
                        day I read a quote that changed my belief system of years. "God did'nt create
                        the universe God became the universe. It's interesting that when the time is
                        right I might understand something that a few yrs earlier would not have ment
                        anything.
                        > Diana
                        >
                        Rosemarie Bucci <rblustar wrote:

                        Hi Diana,
                        I've had lots of experiences before
                        my journey into eckankar and while on
                        this path. I have read David Lane's book
                        and Ford Johnson's book as well.

                        I've been to eck satsangs, eck book
                        discussions and eck seminars also.
                        I agree that honesty is essential the
                        name of GOD on all levels.

                        I also understand that truth is truth
                        and will always be the truth.

                        I think it's important to remain open
                        and honest regardless of what path we
                        follow and to be there for one another
                        as much as we can. We are all searching
                        which is wonderful.

                        Therefore, we are not wrong in doing
                        so and let's remember, we all have each
                        other to try to put all this in perspective.
                        We have so much to bring to one another
                        on our many different levels of knowledge
                        and experience.

                        I know we'll get through this some day
                        and be stronger for it even if it hurts
                        sometimes. If we are to stand before
                        GOD and try to journey back to GOD,
                        we must be brave and remain in truth.



                        Prometheus: But there is no Truth
                        in Eckankar nor in any religion. It's
                        desperation, fear, lies, myth (stories),
                        imagination, pretend, and delusion!



                        Thank you for getting back to me.
                        Rosemarie
                      • dianastanley43
                        ... Diana
                        Message 11 of 24 , Feb 21, 2011
                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                          > Paul commissioned me to do a sculpture of him so the Eckist would have something to focus on,I quess it was supposed to compete with jesus on the cross, any way he died befor it was finished and the stature fell apart befor I could make a mold of it. I thought Paul destroyed when he died as a lot of hi's at the time felt that. Acually it was bad craftsmanship on my part. I have to say it was pretty neat, he was sitting on a stool looking holy.
                          Diana
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Hello Avonblue and All,
                          > I was first introduced to the
                          > "quantum physics/mechanics/
                          > field theory" scam via Maharishi
                          > of TM fame. Adam Dreamhealer
                          > and many other scammers have
                          > used and abused this theory
                          > to explain how their brand of
                          > whatever works. I'm surprised
                          > that Klemp hasn't used this hook
                          > in order to combine science and
                          > spirituality.
                          >
                          > It is quite interesting how Klemp
                          > gradually became "the" God/Mahanta.
                          >
                          > And, even though he has stated,
                          > "don't worship me" he has Eckists
                          > stare at his picture and chant HU.
                          >
                          > Plus, he has them dream of him
                          > and beseech him with requests,
                          > questions, help, protection, and
                          > for healing. So, HK instructs Eckists
                          > to pray to him (the Mahanta), but
                          > says he's not to be worshipped.
                          > How's that work? Of course he's
                          > worshipped!
                          >
                          > And, who or what is "worshipped" by
                          > Eckists at ECK Worship Services (EWS)?
                          > Is it the ECK? Klemp claims to be that
                          > too, or is it the Mahanta or both?
                          > So, on the "outer" Klemp is the leader
                          > (LEM) of Eckankar and on the "inner"
                          > he claims to be the ECK and the Mahanta.
                          > But wouldn't he, also, be the ECK and
                          > the Mahanta on the "outer" as well?
                          > This is where/how Klemp tricks ECKists
                          > into worshipping him. He's everything
                          > and claims to be levels higher than the
                          > God that other religions worship. Yet,
                          > just like Twitchell fooled people, Klemp
                          > does the same. Telling ECKists not to
                          > worship him is a disclaimer so that he
                          > can avoid responsibility.
                          >
                          > It's really laughable that older ECKists
                          > turned their backs on the religion of
                          > their parents because "God" never answered
                          > their prayers, etc. Now, they've substituted
                          > Klemp for Jesus or Moses or who and what
                          > ever. How stupid is that!
                          >
                          > Strange that Sugmad isn't worshipped
                          > at these EWS events and neither is God.
                          > God is discussed some, but a real Eckist
                          > knows that "God" is code for the Mahanta,
                          > or the KAL, it depends. So, who/what is
                          > worshipped? The ECK? That's Klemp too!
                          > Klemp, in one way or the other is always
                          > the main focus! Really, who does the Mahanta
                          > look like? And, yet, do Eckists really think
                          > about what they are really doing when they
                          > worship, pray HU, contemplate upon, dream,
                          > and beseech "the" Mahanta/ECK (Klemp)
                          > for help? Apparently not!
                          >
                          > Prometheus
                          >
                          >
                          > Avonblue wrote:
                          > Diana and All,
                          >
                          > I came to eckankar back in the 70's because I felt religion was an abomination
                          > and the lure of free exploration of our spiritual self was truly revolutionary.
                          > Eckankar eventually failed to be the magical mystical carpet ride it was
                          > purported to be but instead a rehash and reinvention of eastern and western
                          > mumbo jumbo recreated by a charlatan. I too have explored quantum physics and
                          > especially the advances in neuroscience over the past several years and have
                          > come to the belief that "spirituality" and for the that matter "god" is nothing
                          > more than misunderstood and undiscovered as of yet science.
                          >
                          > dianastanley43"
                          > dianastanley43@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Rosemarie you are quite right. I started with Eckankar and ended up studing
                          > quantum Physics What I finally came to the conclusion of was if you were sitting
                          > in you living room you didn't need a spiritual path to find your living room. It
                          > has not been an easy journy as I was loath to give up the idea of the mystical
                          > and magical and I traveled many paths in the 30 yrs after leaving Eckankar. One
                          > day I read a quote that changed my belief system of years. "God did'nt create
                          > the universe God became the universe. It's interesting that when the time is
                          > right I might understand something that a few yrs earlier would not have ment
                          > anything.
                          > > Diana
                          > >
                          > Rosemarie Bucci <rblustar wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi Diana,
                          > I've had lots of experiences before
                          > my journey into eckankar and while on
                          > this path. I have read David Lane's book
                          > and Ford Johnson's book as well.
                          >
                          > I've been to eck satsangs, eck book
                          > discussions and eck seminars also.
                          > I agree that honesty is essential the
                          > name of GOD on all levels.
                          >
                          > I also understand that truth is truth
                          > and will always be the truth.
                          >
                          > I think it's important to remain open
                          > and honest regardless of what path we
                          > follow and to be there for one another
                          > as much as we can. We are all searching
                          > which is wonderful.
                          >
                          > Therefore, we are not wrong in doing
                          > so and let's remember, we all have each
                          > other to try to put all this in perspective.
                          > We have so much to bring to one another
                          > on our many different levels of knowledge
                          > and experience.
                          >
                          > I know we'll get through this some day
                          > and be stronger for it even if it hurts
                          > sometimes. If we are to stand before
                          > GOD and try to journey back to GOD,
                          > we must be brave and remain in truth.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Prometheus: But there is no Truth
                          > in Eckankar nor in any religion. It's
                          > desperation, fear, lies, myth (stories),
                          > imagination, pretend, and delusion!
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Thank you for getting back to me.
                          > Rosemarie
                          >
                        • starshine917
                          Hello prometheus_973: Remember me? Wow, it s so weird that I d be writing to you now….exactly, one year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I
                          Message 12 of 24 , Sep 4, 2011
                            Hello prometheus_973:
                            Remember me? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writing to you now….exactly, one year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I didn't plan it like this but somehow it just worked out this way.

                            I recently left Eckankar. And, you were right….I read David Lane's paper as well as Ford Johnson's "Confessions of a God Seeker" And, for some reason at that time I remained in the group tying to focus on the so-called positive side of the Eckankar, the hypnotic rederick that goes nowhere while ignoring the facts. I then started to take a good look at Harold…looked into his "dark" eyes and listened to his figure of monotone speak and I realized it was very hypnotic, and at the same time very inviting. I wondered who or what was inside of those dark eyes….And they seem to always come as "the light". Yes, the "angel of light".

                            I was in a satsang at that time and I found it disturbing more and more that his same picture of himself, which by the way never changes, the one and only picture that has to be present at all Eckankar meetings was never questioned by it's members. All the books we studied were written by him and only him !!! And how some members were "higher" than others depending on their "initiation" number, even if these people knew absolutely nothing except what was written in the books of Eckankar. Some of these people seemed to have anger issues too which didn't seem to fit the spiritual portrait of a saint they painted. I started to feel uncomfortable around these people cause they seemed more and more to me like mind-controlled slaves. And, they too could see that I was thinking and starting to pull away because I no longer looked to them without question, with blind authority.

                            So, it wasn't a good mix to say the very least. I finally had it out with one of the members and I realized that I already left…In my heart, I choose to follow truth and I also realized that that in Eckankar, I was being deceived. And I realized that I couldn't have it both ways. I had to pick my convictions and go with them. After all, why would I go against my own self, and what was in my heart ?

                            In Eckankar it is taught to open and follow your heart but yet, if you dare open your mind and begin to ask challenging questions, you're in trouble because these people think the Mahanta in Eckankar is above all else and should never be questioned, and your heart should be open to "him", the self appointed master, Harold Klemp. Even if the members of Eckankar are not honest with themselves enough to admit it consciously. On a subconscious level, they know better !!!

                            The shame of it all is that this deception is done in the name of an unconditional open heart to give love, which it is true, a part of GOD's flow but where's the truth ? What happened to that part of GOD ??? I guess it got lost in the sea of love…


                            Hello prometheus_973;
                            Remember me ? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writ

                            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hello Rosemarie,
                            > I am a seeker of Truth as well.
                            > And yes, this article on "The Dark
                            > Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
                            > there is a dark side to Eckankar and
                            > there is also fear.
                            >
                            > I find it interesting that you've
                            > read (and I assume have contemplated
                            > upon) David Lane's research as well as
                            > Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
                            > and have, still, remained an ECKist.
                            >
                            > What happened to your "critical thinking?"
                            > Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
                            > you agree with some of it but not all of
                            > it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
                            > I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
                            > isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
                            > what they believe than any other religion
                            > they've found. Is that the case with you?
                            >
                            > I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
                            > book, threw it away (because of the bad
                            > vibes), and then placed themselves upon
                            > pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
                            > and talk Eckists through their doubts and
                            > concerns.
                            >
                            > You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
                            > not all truth is the same. That's why there
                            > are so many churches. People are social
                            > animals and tend to seek out others with
                            > similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
                            > to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
                            > to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
                            > and a test for Soul.
                            >
                            > I also got the impression that you don't
                            > participate much within the RESA structure.
                            > Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
                            > Do you know that you have to watch what
                            > you say? You've observed and learned that
                            > correct? You do care about being promoted
                            > to that next initiation right?
                            >
                            > Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
                            > take on the subjects that we've been discussing
                            > here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
                            > lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
                            > for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
                            > Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
                            > when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
                            > "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
                            > detectors just for his talk?
                            >
                            > You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues. 
                            > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
                            > at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."
                            >
                            > BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
                            > read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?
                            >
                            > Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
                            > the table.
                            >
                            > Prometheus
                            >
                            > rosemarie wrote:
                            > Hi Diana,
                            >
                            > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth is truth and will always be the truth.
                            >
                            > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember, we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
                            >
                            > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must be brave and remain in truth.
                            >
                            > Thank you for getting back to me.
                            > Rosemarie
                            >
                            >
                            > dianastanley wrote:
                            >
                            > Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time. If it is hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew and was their experience I also say.
                            >
                            > Diana Stanley
                            >
                            > Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
                            >
                            > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who are
                            > searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
                            > findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
                            > thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.
                            >
                            > I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues. 
                            > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
                            > have allot to bring to the table.
                            >  
                            > I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
                            > called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
                            > site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because I'd
                            > raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
                            > well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
                            > complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
                            > thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely objective.
                            > For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
                            > paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
                            >  
                            > I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
                            > within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on the
                            > facts.
                            >
                            > I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
                            > the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
                            > belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking.
                            > Do you?
                            >
                          • prometheus_973
                            Hello All, Just thought I d share some additional comments to what Starshine wrote. starshine917 wrote: Hello prometheus_973: Remember me? Wow, it s so weird
                            Message 13 of 24 , Sep 11, 2011
                              Hello All,
                              Just thought I'd share some
                              additional comments to what
                              Starshine wrote.

                              starshine917 wrote:
                              Hello prometheus_973:
                              Remember me? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writing to you now….exactly, one
                              year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I didn't plan it like
                              this but somehow it just worked out this way.


                              ME: Yes, it takes awhile for the
                              realization to occur and sink in
                              even after one decides to look
                              for and analyze it via critical
                              thinking while giving HK's/PT's
                              redundant words a litmus test
                              for truthiness.


                              I recently left Eckankar. And, you were right….I read David Lane's paper as well
                              as Ford Johnson's "Confessions of a God Seeker" And, for some reason at that
                              time I remained in the group tying to focus on the so-called positive side of
                              the Eckankar, the hypnotic rederick that goes nowhere while ignoring the facts.
                              I then started to take a good look at Harold…looked into his "dark" eyes and
                              listened to his figure of monotone speak and I realized it was very hypnotic,
                              and at the same time very inviting. I wondered who or what was inside of those
                              dark eyes….And they seem to always come as "the light". Yes, the "angel of
                              light".


                              ME: Klemp is no angel of light! He spreads
                              darkness and delusion while denying Eckists
                              their true nature as Soul. He gives (hope),
                              promises (higher plane initiations), and then
                              takes it all away (hope of ever getting beyond
                              the 7th initiation while in this lifetime, unless,
                              one pretends or imagines they are higher
                              via vanity and frustration).


                              I was in a satsang at that time and I found it disturbing more and more that his
                              same picture of himself, which by the way never changes, the one and only
                              picture that has to be present at all Eckankar meetings was never questioned by
                              it's members. All the books we studied were written by him and only him !!! And
                              how some members were "higher" than others depending on their "initiation"
                              number, even if these people knew absolutely nothing except what was written in
                              the books of Eckankar. Some of these people seemed to have anger issues too
                              which didn't seem to fit the spiritual portrait of a saint they painted. I
                              started to feel uncomfortable around these people cause they seemed more and
                              more to me like mind-controlled slaves. And, they too could see that I was
                              thinking and starting to pull away because I no longer looked to them without
                              question, with blind authority.


                              ME: Yes, that more youthful looking
                              Official Picture of Klemp's is a vain act,
                              but is never questioned because to do
                              so would get one Black Listed on initiations.
                              Those longtime Eckists who are part
                              of the RESA Hierarchy know what I'm
                              saying. Some H.I.s are fearful/cautious
                              of the spies that report to the RESA and
                              only share certain things (anti-Guideline
                              comments, etc.) around those H.I.s they
                              can trust.


                              BTW- There are some books, that Klemp
                              has approved of, written by non-Eck
                              authors that Eckists can read. However,
                              the Eckist must always focus upon the
                              ECK or Mahanta when reading these
                              books and, thus, give up free, unfettered,
                              thought. Some of these books are
                              recommended to those in leadership
                              positions and are business oriented.



                              So, it wasn't a good mix to say the very least. I finally had it out with one of
                              the members and I realized that I already left…In my heart, I choose to follow
                              truth and I also realized that that in Eckankar, I was being deceived. And I
                              realized that I couldn't have it both ways. I had to pick my convictions and go
                              with them. After all, why would I go against my own self, and what was in my
                              heart?


                              ME: It's the easy way to place an
                              authority figure on a shelf higher
                              than yourself. Less thinking and
                              effort is involved when blind trust
                              takes over. It's lazy but that's what
                              people do. Look at how we allow
                              the politicians to say and do as
                              they please without taking responsibility.
                              With Klemp, it's always the chela's
                              fault and never his own! He slowed-
                              down initiations in 1985, but doesn't
                              need to explain why these haven't
                              sped up because he answers to
                              nobody else, except, Sugmad right?


                              In Eckankar it is taught to open and follow your heart but yet, if you dare open
                              your mind and begin to ask challenging questions, you're in trouble because
                              these people think the Mahanta in Eckankar is above all else and should never be
                              questioned, and your heart should be open to "him", the self appointed master,
                              Harold Klemp. Even if the members of Eckankar are not honest with themselves
                              enough to admit it consciously. On a subconscious level, they know better !!!

                              ME: That following your heart
                              thing is more about the Astral
                              Heart Chakra... which is lower
                              than the Third Eye or Tisra Til!
                              Why didn't Klemp at least use
                              the (Astral) Crown Chakra when
                              having Eckists HU? After 30 years
                              and HK still has Eckists HUing
                              and focusing upon the 6th,
                              Third Eye, Astral Chakra versus
                              the 7th Crown Chakra!


                              The shame of it all is that this deception is done in the name of an
                              unconditional open heart to give love, which it is true, a part of GOD's flow
                              but where's the truth ? What happened to that part of GOD ??? I guess it got
                              lost in the sea of love…


                              ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                              "common language" but it's not
                              quite true. ECK is not a common
                              word and neither is Mahanta.
                              And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                              to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                              others worship or think he is speaking
                              about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                              use the word GOD when it's not
                              who or what they are referring
                              to. It's like comparing apples
                              to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                              start out, and are trained, to be
                              deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                              fact alone makes Eckankar look
                              very cult like. But, why the lie?
                              The "common language" excuse
                              doesn't hold water but Eckists
                              can't question this underhanded
                              practice or else they can have
                              their position taken away and
                              be Black Listed and shunned.

                              Prometheus



                              Hello prometheus_973;
                              Remember me ? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writ


                              <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hello Rosemarie,
                              > I am a seeker of Truth as well.
                              > And yes, this article on "The Dark
                              > Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
                              > there is a dark side to Eckankar and
                              > there is also fear.
                              >
                              > I find it interesting that you've
                              > read (and I assume have contemplated
                              > upon) David Lane's research as well as
                              > Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
                              > and have, still, remained an ECKist.
                              >
                              > What happened to your "critical thinking?"
                              > Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
                              > you agree with some of it but not all of
                              > it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
                              > I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
                              > isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
                              > what they believe than any other religion
                              > they've found. Is that the case with you?
                              >
                              > I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
                              > book, threw it away (because of the bad
                              > vibes), and then placed themselves upon
                              > pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
                              > and talk Eckists through their doubts and
                              > concerns.
                              >
                              > You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
                              > not all truth is the same. That's why there
                              > are so many churches. People are social
                              > animals and tend to seek out others with
                              > similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
                              > to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
                              > to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
                              > and a test for Soul.
                              >
                              > I also got the impression that you don't
                              > participate much within the RESA structure.
                              > Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
                              > Do you know that you have to watch what
                              > you say? You've observed and learned that
                              > correct? You do care about being promoted
                              > to that next initiation right?
                              >
                              > Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
                              > take on the subjects that we've been discussing
                              > here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
                              > lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
                              > for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
                              > Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
                              > when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
                              > "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
                              > detectors just for his talk?
                              >
                              > You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                              > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
                              > at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."
                              >
                              > BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
                              > read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?
                              >
                              > Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
                              > the table.
                              >
                              > Prometheus
                              >
                              > rosemarie wrote:
                              > Hi Diana,
                              >
                              > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this
                              path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been
                              to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that
                              honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth
                              is truth and will always be the truth.
                              >
                              > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we
                              follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching
                              which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember,
                              we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to
                              bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
                              >
                              > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts
                              sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must
                              be brave and remain in truth.
                              >
                              > Thank you for getting back to me.
                              > Rosemarie
                              >
                              >
                              > dianastanley wrote:
                              >
                              > Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any
                              direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from
                              personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time. If it is
                              hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew and was their
                              experience I also say.
                              >
                              > Diana Stanley
                              >
                              > Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
                              >
                              > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who
                              are searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
                              findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
                              thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.
                              >
                              I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                              We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
                              have allot to bring to the table.
                              >
                              I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
                              called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
                              site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because
                              I'd raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
                              well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
                              complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
                              thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely
                              objective.

                              For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
                              paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
                              >
                              I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
                              within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on
                              the facts.
                              >
                              I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
                              the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
                              belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking.
                              Do you?
                            • postekcon
                              Re ... ME: Klemp likes to say he uses common language but it s not quite true. ECK is not a common word and neither is Mahanta. And, the God (Sugmad) he
                              Message 14 of 24 , Sep 11, 2011
                                Re
                                >>>
                                ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                                "common language" but it's not
                                quite true. ECK is not a common
                                word and neither is Mahanta.
                                And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                                to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                                others worship or think he is speaking
                                about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                                use the word GOD when it's not
                                who or what they are referring
                                to. It's like comparing apples
                                to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                                start out, and are trained, to be
                                deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                                fact alone makes Eckankar look
                                very cult like. But, why the lie?
                                The "common language" excuse
                                doesn't hold water but Eckists
                                can't question this underhanded
                                practice or else they can have
                                their position taken away and
                                be Black Listed and shunned.
                                >>>


                                For the past ten years, I have observed this pattern.

                                Hard working HIs (50-70yrs plus) busy putting on Intro Talks, occasionally enrolling a new recruit to ekult.

                                However, within a year or two, the new recruit leaves ekult as nothing makes sense! Of course, the HIs, unable to look at either themselves or ekult, always blame the new recruit with comments such as lack of unfoldment etc!

                                For the new recruit, the reason nothing makes sense, I've observed, is thus. The HIs bring the new recruit into Paul Twitchell/Darwin Gross ekult; the ekult into which they themselved were enrolled. Now this version of ekult promised it had the tools for self/god realization in this lifetime etc. However, several MW (Mystic World) issues later, the new recruit comes to understand these 'good people' lied to them!
                                -Postekcon


                                In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Hello All,
                                > Just thought I'd share some
                                > additional comments to what
                                > Starshine wrote.
                                >
                                > starshine917 wrote:
                                > Hello prometheus_973:
                                > Remember me? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writing to you now….exactly, one
                                > year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I didn't plan it like
                                > this but somehow it just worked out this way.
                                >
                                >
                                > ME: Yes, it takes awhile for the
                                > realization to occur and sink in
                                > even after one decides to look
                                > for and analyze it via critical
                                > thinking while giving HK's/PT's
                                > redundant words a litmus test
                                > for truthiness.
                                >
                                >
                                > I recently left Eckankar. And, you were right….I read David Lane's paper as well
                                > as Ford Johnson's "Confessions of a God Seeker" And, for some reason at that
                                > time I remained in the group tying to focus on the so-called positive side of
                                > the Eckankar, the hypnotic rederick that goes nowhere while ignoring the facts.
                                > I then started to take a good look at Harold…looked into his "dark" eyes and
                                > listened to his figure of monotone speak and I realized it was very hypnotic,
                                > and at the same time very inviting. I wondered who or what was inside of those
                                > dark eyes….And they seem to always come as "the light". Yes, the "angel of
                                > light".
                                >
                                >
                                > ME: Klemp is no angel of light! He spreads
                                > darkness and delusion while denying Eckists
                                > their true nature as Soul. He gives (hope),
                                > promises (higher plane initiations), and then
                                > takes it all away (hope of ever getting beyond
                                > the 7th initiation while in this lifetime, unless,
                                > one pretends or imagines they are higher
                                > via vanity and frustration).
                                >
                                >
                                > I was in a satsang at that time and I found it disturbing more and more that his
                                > same picture of himself, which by the way never changes, the one and only
                                > picture that has to be present at all Eckankar meetings was never questioned by
                                > it's members. All the books we studied were written by him and only him !!! And
                                > how some members were "higher" than others depending on their "initiation"
                                > number, even if these people knew absolutely nothing except what was written in
                                > the books of Eckankar. Some of these people seemed to have anger issues too
                                > which didn't seem to fit the spiritual portrait of a saint they painted. I
                                > started to feel uncomfortable around these people cause they seemed more and
                                > more to me like mind-controlled slaves. And, they too could see that I was
                                > thinking and starting to pull away because I no longer looked to them without
                                > question, with blind authority.
                                >
                                >
                                > ME: Yes, that more youthful looking
                                > Official Picture of Klemp's is a vain act,
                                > but is never questioned because to do
                                > so would get one Black Listed on initiations.
                                > Those longtime Eckists who are part
                                > of the RESA Hierarchy know what I'm
                                > saying. Some H.I.s are fearful/cautious
                                > of the spies that report to the RESA and
                                > only share certain things (anti-Guideline
                                > comments, etc.) around those H.I.s they
                                > can trust.
                                >
                                >
                                > BTW- There are some books, that Klemp
                                > has approved of, written by non-Eck
                                > authors that Eckists can read. However,
                                > the Eckist must always focus upon the
                                > ECK or Mahanta when reading these
                                > books and, thus, give up free, unfettered,
                                > thought. Some of these books are
                                > recommended to those in leadership
                                > positions and are business oriented.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > So, it wasn't a good mix to say the very least. I finally had it out with one of
                                > the members and I realized that I already left…In my heart, I choose to follow
                                > truth and I also realized that that in Eckankar, I was being deceived. And I
                                > realized that I couldn't have it both ways. I had to pick my convictions and go
                                > with them. After all, why would I go against my own self, and what was in my
                                > heart?
                                >
                                >
                                > ME: It's the easy way to place an
                                > authority figure on a shelf higher
                                > than yourself. Less thinking and
                                > effort is involved when blind trust
                                > takes over. It's lazy but that's what
                                > people do. Look at how we allow
                                > the politicians to say and do as
                                > they please without taking responsibility.
                                > With Klemp, it's always the chela's
                                > fault and never his own! He slowed-
                                > down initiations in 1985, but doesn't
                                > need to explain why these haven't
                                > sped up because he answers to
                                > nobody else, except, Sugmad right?
                                >
                                >
                                > In Eckankar it is taught to open and follow your heart but yet, if you dare open
                                > your mind and begin to ask challenging questions, you're in trouble because
                                > these people think the Mahanta in Eckankar is above all else and should never be
                                > questioned, and your heart should be open to "him", the self appointed master,
                                > Harold Klemp. Even if the members of Eckankar are not honest with themselves
                                > enough to admit it consciously. On a subconscious level, they know better !!!
                                >
                                > ME: That following your heart
                                > thing is more about the Astral
                                > Heart Chakra... which is lower
                                > than the Third Eye or Tisra Til!
                                > Why didn't Klemp at least use
                                > the (Astral) Crown Chakra when
                                > having Eckists HU? After 30 years
                                > and HK still has Eckists HUing
                                > and focusing upon the 6th,
                                > Third Eye, Astral Chakra versus
                                > the 7th Crown Chakra!
                                >
                                >
                                > The shame of it all is that this deception is done in the name of an
                                > unconditional open heart to give love, which it is true, a part of GOD's flow
                                > but where's the truth ? What happened to that part of GOD ??? I guess it got
                                > lost in the sea of love…
                                >
                                >
                                > ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                                > "common language" but it's not
                                > quite true. ECK is not a common
                                > word and neither is Mahanta.
                                > And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                                > to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                                > others worship or think he is speaking
                                > about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                                > use the word GOD when it's not
                                > who or what they are referring
                                > to. It's like comparing apples
                                > to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                                > start out, and are trained, to be
                                > deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                                > fact alone makes Eckankar look
                                > very cult like. But, why the lie?
                                > The "common language" excuse
                                > doesn't hold water but Eckists
                                > can't question this underhanded
                                > practice or else they can have
                                > their position taken away and
                                > be Black Listed and shunned.
                                >
                                > Prometheus
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Hello prometheus_973;
                                > Remember me ? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writ
                                >
                                >
                                > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Hello Rosemarie,
                                > > I am a seeker of Truth as well.
                                > > And yes, this article on "The Dark
                                > > Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
                                > > there is a dark side to Eckankar and
                                > > there is also fear.
                                > >
                                > > I find it interesting that you've
                                > > read (and I assume have contemplated
                                > > upon) David Lane's research as well as
                                > > Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
                                > > and have, still, remained an ECKist.
                                > >
                                > > What happened to your "critical thinking?"
                                > > Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
                                > > you agree with some of it but not all of
                                > > it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
                                > > I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
                                > > isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
                                > > what they believe than any other religion
                                > > they've found. Is that the case with you?
                                > >
                                > > I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
                                > > book, threw it away (because of the bad
                                > > vibes), and then placed themselves upon
                                > > pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
                                > > and talk Eckists through their doubts and
                                > > concerns.
                                > >
                                > > You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
                                > > not all truth is the same. That's why there
                                > > are so many churches. People are social
                                > > animals and tend to seek out others with
                                > > similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
                                > > to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
                                > > to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
                                > > and a test for Soul.
                                > >
                                > > I also got the impression that you don't
                                > > participate much within the RESA structure.
                                > > Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
                                > > Do you know that you have to watch what
                                > > you say? You've observed and learned that
                                > > correct? You do care about being promoted
                                > > to that next initiation right?
                                > >
                                > > Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
                                > > take on the subjects that we've been discussing
                                > > here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
                                > > lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
                                > > for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
                                > > Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
                                > > when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
                                > > "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
                                > > detectors just for his talk?
                                > >
                                > > You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                                > > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
                                > > at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."
                                > >
                                > > BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
                                > > read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?
                                > >
                                > > Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
                                > > the table.
                                > >
                                > > Prometheus
                                > >
                                > > rosemarie wrote:
                                > > Hi Diana,
                                > >
                                > > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this
                                > path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been
                                > to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that
                                > honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth
                                > is truth and will always be the truth.
                                > >
                                > > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we
                                > follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching
                                > which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember,
                                > we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to
                                > bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
                                > >
                                > > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts
                                > sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must
                                > be brave and remain in truth.
                                > >
                                > > Thank you for getting back to me.
                                > > Rosemarie
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > dianastanley wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any
                                > direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from
                                > personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time. If it is
                                > hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew and was their
                                > experience I also say.
                                > >
                                > > Diana Stanley
                                > >
                                > > Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
                                > >
                                > > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who
                                > are searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
                                > findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
                                > thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.
                                > >
                                > I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                                > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
                                > have allot to bring to the table.
                                > >
                                > I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
                                > called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
                                > site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because
                                > I'd raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
                                > well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
                                > complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
                                > thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely
                                > objective.
                                >
                                > For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
                                > paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
                                > >
                                > I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
                                > within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on
                                > the facts.
                                > >
                                > I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
                                > the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
                                > belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking.
                                > Do you?
                                >
                              • prometheus_973
                                Hello Postekcon and All, Yes, it was always a conundrum trying to recruit new members via spreading the word i.e. manure. However, we had structured public
                                Message 15 of 24 , Sep 14, 2011
                                  Hello Postekcon and All,
                                  Yes, it was always a conundrum
                                  trying to recruit new members
                                  via "spreading the word" i.e.
                                  manure. However, we had
                                  structured public workshops
                                  and/or book discussions with
                                  Guidelines spelling out what
                                  to do and how to do it.

                                  Some RESA areas did experimental
                                  programs (special projects),
                                  and if successful, the ESC
                                  tweaked them to be used
                                  elsewhere. It was all quite
                                  time consuming and frustrating.
                                  Local areas and the H.I.s were
                                  always judged on the numbers
                                  of newbies showing up for
                                  these events. Most people
                                  were repeats and were into
                                  metaphysics or were the friends,
                                  coworkers or relatives of Eckists.

                                  I recall that one local area
                                  of a neighboring state was
                                  having a lot of success via
                                  large turnouts of newbies.
                                  They probably had a couple
                                  of hundred newbies in one
                                  year and that was practically
                                  unheard of in Eckankar. Several
                                  of these H.I.s were very proud
                                  of the "high counts" they turned
                                  in to the ESC. However, out
                                  of all of those newbies only
                                  about ten joined Eckankar
                                  and only, maybe, one or two
                                  remained after a year. These,
                                  I doubt, remained for the
                                  long haul. Let's face it, it's
                                  a dead end religion where
                                  one pretends, i.e. imagines
                                  or visualizes, their desires
                                  for "spiritual" progress and
                                  "knowingness" or "realization"
                                  of varying degrees. The initiation
                                  game is the main, underlying,
                                  theme. The problem, for Eckists,
                                  is that dangling carrot when
                                  initiations have been "slowed-
                                  down" for 25 years and the
                                  highest most can go is the 7th!

                                  Those 7th initiates who had
                                  hit the glass ceiling 20 or more
                                  years ago have rationalized
                                  it all away. They only stay in
                                  EK because they have some
                                  prestige, a lot of Eck friends,
                                  and have paid their dues with
                                  a lot of vahana and satsang
                                  work over the years. Plus, they've
                                  been taught to "imagine" and
                                  visualize, therefore, all they
                                  need to do is pretend they are
                                  8ths (on the inner). Most pretend
                                  they are higher than 8ths. After
                                  all, Darwin skipped or sped up
                                  initiations even for Klemp. So,
                                  if it was valid, then, why not
                                  today? Actually, just about all
                                  Eckists pretent they are "higher"
                                  than the number printed on
                                  their Membership Cards.

                                  Anyway, the reason why
                                  the EK Youth effort has
                                  gained some momentum
                                  over the years is because
                                  it's easier to brainwash a
                                  controlled subject. However,
                                  that doesn't always work,
                                  either, when these young
                                  Eckists see their parents
                                  act so nutty and non-Eck
                                  like. Plus, reclusive Klemp
                                  puts a lot of pressure upon
                                  them to do the vahana/
                                  missionary thing when
                                  it's tough enough getting
                                  through school and those
                                  teen years. Klemp doesn't
                                  have any empathy. He was
                                  in a Lutheran all boys high
                                  school and never learned
                                  about dating until he got
                                  out of the Air Force (1968)
                                  when he was 26 years old!

                                  One has to wonder why
                                  Klemp doesn't do his fair
                                  share of public vahana work.
                                  Why doesn't he have a radio
                                  show or do and say something
                                  in real time? The EK Seminars
                                  don't count. That's for maybe
                                  a hundred newbies who aren't
                                  all that "new" and for his brain-
                                  washed followers.

                                  In theory, Klemp's real "spiritual"
                                  mission is to help his followers
                                  achieve God Realization. However,
                                  what Initiation level is the indicator
                                  that this has been accomplished?

                                  According to Book 2, CH. 12 of
                                  the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad (Eckankar's
                                  Holy Book) their God, Sugmad,
                                  resides on the 10th Plane, however,
                                  Eckists must have the 11th Initiation
                                  for "entrance into the Sugmad world,
                                  which is the highest world of God,
                                  if any, may enter."

                                  Of course, that's not quite true either
                                  since there're the 12th, 13th, and 14th
                                  initiations after this one. This, then,
                                  is where one (supposedly) enters into
                                  Soul's true home called The Ocean of
                                  love and Mercy. However, one can see
                                  why EK Higher initiates (5-7) become
                                  internally frustrated since, except for
                                  a handful of people, they will never
                                  even see the 8th initiation (in this
                                  lifetime). That's the Catch/Con that
                                  Twitchell invented and Klemp inherited.
                                  Hope via promises for a better afterlife
                                  while imagining day-to-day miracles
                                  and dreaming about one's pre-programmed
                                  expectations. It's how any and every
                                  religion works.

                                  Prometheus




                                  "postekcon" wrote:
                                  Re
                                  >>>
                                  ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                                  "common language" but it's not
                                  quite true. ECK is not a common
                                  word and neither is Mahanta.
                                  And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                                  to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                                  others worship or think he is speaking
                                  about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                                  use the word GOD when it's not
                                  who or what they are referring
                                  to. It's like comparing apples
                                  to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                                  start out, and are trained, to be
                                  deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                                  fact alone makes Eckankar look
                                  very cult like. But, why the lie?
                                  The "common language" excuse
                                  doesn't hold water but Eckists
                                  can't question this underhanded
                                  practice or else they can have
                                  their position taken away and
                                  can be Black Listed and shunned.
                                  >>>


                                  For the past ten years, I have observed this pattern.

                                  Hard working HIs (50-70yrs plus) busy putting on Intro Talks, occasionally
                                  enrolling a new recruit to ekult.

                                  However, within a year or two, the new recruit leaves ekult as nothing makes
                                  sense! Of course, the HIs, unable to look at either themselves or ekult, always
                                  blame the new recruit with comments such as lack of unfoldment etc!

                                  For the new recruit, the reason nothing makes sense, I've observed, is thus. The
                                  HIs bring the new recruit into Paul Twitchell/Darwin Gross ekult; the ekult into
                                  which they themselved were enrolled. Now this version of ekult promised it had
                                  the tools for self/god realization in this lifetime etc. However, several MW
                                  (Mystic World) issues later, the new recruit comes to understand these 'good
                                  people' lied to them!
                                  -Postekcon


                                  In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                                  <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hello All,
                                  > Just thought I'd share some
                                  > additional comments to what
                                  > Starshine wrote.
                                  >
                                  > starshine917 wrote:
                                  > Hello prometheus_973:
                                  > Remember me? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writing to you now….exactly, one
                                  > year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I didn't plan it like
                                  > this but somehow it just worked out this way.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ME: Yes, it takes awhile for the
                                  > realization to occur and sink in
                                  > even after one decides to look
                                  > for and analyze it via critical
                                  > thinking while giving HK's/PT's
                                  > redundant words a litmus test
                                  > for truthiness.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I recently left Eckankar. And, you were right….I read David Lane's paper as
                                  well as Ford Johnson's "Confessions of a God Seeker" And, for some reason at
                                  that time I remained in the group tying to focus on the so-called positive side
                                  of the Eckankar, the hypnotic rederick that goes nowhere while ignoring the
                                  facts.

                                  > I then started to take a good look at Harold…looked into his "dark" eyes and
                                  > listened to his figure of monotone speak and I realized it was very hypnotic,
                                  > and at the same time very inviting. I wondered who or what was inside of those
                                  > dark eyes….And they seem to always come as "the light". Yes, the "angel of
                                  > light".
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ME: Klemp is no angel of light! He spreads
                                  > darkness and delusion while denying Eckists
                                  > their true nature as Soul. He gives (hope),
                                  > promises (higher plane initiations), and then
                                  > takes it all away (hope of ever getting beyond
                                  > the 7th initiation while in this lifetime, unless,
                                  > one pretends or imagines they are higher
                                  > via vanity and frustration).
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I was in a satsang at that time and I found it disturbing more and more that
                                  his
                                  > same picture of himself, which by the way never changes, the one and only
                                  > picture that has to be present at all Eckankar meetings was never questioned
                                  by
                                  > it's members. All the books we studied were written by him and only him !!!
                                  And
                                  > how some members were "higher" than others depending on their "initiation"
                                  > number, even if these people knew absolutely nothing except what was written
                                  in
                                  > the books of Eckankar. Some of these people seemed to have anger issues too
                                  > which didn't seem to fit the spiritual portrait of a saint they painted. I
                                  > started to feel uncomfortable around these people cause they seemed more and
                                  > more to me like mind-controlled slaves. And, they too could see that I was
                                  > thinking and starting to pull away because I no longer looked to them without
                                  > question, with blind authority.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ME: Yes, that more youthful looking
                                  > Official Picture of Klemp's is a vain act,
                                  > but is never questioned because to do
                                  > so would get one Black Listed on initiations.
                                  > Those longtime Eckists who are part
                                  > of the RESA Hierarchy know what I'm
                                  > saying. Some H.I.s are fearful/cautious
                                  > of the spies that report to the RESA and
                                  > only share certain things (anti-Guideline
                                  > comments, etc.) around those H.I.s they
                                  > can trust.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > BTW- There are some books, that Klemp
                                  > has approved of, written by non-Eck
                                  > authors that Eckists can read. However,
                                  > the Eckist must always focus upon the
                                  > ECK or Mahanta when reading these
                                  > books and, thus, give up free, unfettered,
                                  > thought. Some of these books are
                                  > recommended to those in leadership
                                  > positions and are business oriented.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > So, it wasn't a good mix to say the very least. I finally had it out with one
                                  of
                                  > the members and I realized that I already left…In my heart, I choose to follow
                                  > truth and I also realized that that in Eckankar, I was being deceived. And I
                                  > realized that I couldn't have it both ways. I had to pick my convictions and
                                  go
                                  > with them. After all, why would I go against my own self, and what was in my
                                  > heart?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ME: It's the easy way to place an
                                  > authority figure on a shelf higher
                                  > than yourself. Less thinking and
                                  > effort is involved when blind trust
                                  > takes over. It's lazy but that's what
                                  > people do. Look at how we allow
                                  > the politicians to say and do as
                                  > they please without taking responsibility.
                                  > With Klemp, it's always the chela's
                                  > fault and never his own! He slowed-
                                  > down initiations in 1985, but doesn't
                                  > need to explain why these haven't
                                  > sped up because he answers to
                                  > nobody else, except, Sugmad right?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > In Eckankar it is taught to open and follow your heart but yet, if you dare
                                  open
                                  > your mind and begin to ask challenging questions, you're in trouble because
                                  > these people think the Mahanta in Eckankar is above all else and should never
                                  be
                                  > questioned, and your heart should be open to "him", the self appointed master,
                                  > Harold Klemp. Even if the members of Eckankar are not honest with themselves
                                  > enough to admit it consciously. On a subconscious level, they know better !!!
                                  >
                                  > ME: That following your heart
                                  > thing is more about the Astral
                                  > Heart Chakra... which is lower
                                  > than the Third Eye or Tisra Til!
                                  > Why didn't Klemp at least use
                                  > the (Astral) Crown Chakra when
                                  > having Eckists HU? After 30 years
                                  > and HK still has Eckists HUing
                                  > and focusing upon the 6th,
                                  > Third Eye, Astral Chakra versus
                                  > the 7th Crown Chakra!
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > The shame of it all is that this deception is done in the name of an
                                  > unconditional open heart to give love, which it is true, a part of GOD's flow
                                  > but where's the truth ? What happened to that part of GOD ??? I guess it got
                                  > lost in the sea of love…
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                                  > "common language" but it's not
                                  > quite true. ECK is not a common
                                  > word and neither is Mahanta.
                                  > And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                                  > to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                                  > others worship or think he is speaking
                                  > about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                                  > use the word GOD when it's not
                                  > who or what they are referring
                                  > to. It's like comparing apples
                                  > to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                                  > start out, and are trained, to be
                                  > deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                                  > fact alone makes Eckankar look
                                  > very cult like. But, why the lie?
                                  > The "common language" excuse
                                  > doesn't hold water but Eckists
                                  > can't question this underhanded
                                  > practice or else they can have
                                  > their position taken away and
                                  > be Black Listed and shunned.
                                  >
                                  > Prometheus
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Hello prometheus_973;
                                  > Remember me ? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writ
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Hello Rosemarie,
                                  > > I am a seeker of Truth as well.
                                  > > And yes, this article on "The Dark
                                  > > Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
                                  > > there is a dark side to Eckankar and
                                  > > there is also fear.
                                  > >
                                  > > I find it interesting that you've
                                  > > read (and I assume have contemplated
                                  > > upon) David Lane's research as well as
                                  > > Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
                                  > > and have, still, remained an ECKist.
                                  > >
                                  > > What happened to your "critical thinking?"
                                  > > Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
                                  > > you agree with some of it but not all of
                                  > > it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
                                  > > I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
                                  > > isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
                                  > > what they believe than any other religion
                                  > > they've found. Is that the case with you?
                                  > >
                                  > > I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
                                  > > book, threw it away (because of the bad
                                  > > vibes), and then placed themselves upon
                                  > > pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
                                  > > and talk Eckists through their doubts and
                                  > > concerns.
                                  > >
                                  > > You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
                                  > > not all truth is the same. That's why there
                                  > > are so many churches. People are social
                                  > > animals and tend to seek out others with
                                  > > similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
                                  > > to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
                                  > > to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
                                  > > and a test for Soul.
                                  > >
                                  > > I also got the impression that you don't
                                  > > participate much within the RESA structure.
                                  > > Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
                                  > > Do you know that you have to watch what
                                  > > you say? You've observed and learned that
                                  > > correct? You do care about being promoted
                                  > > to that next initiation right?
                                  > >
                                  > > Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
                                  > > take on the subjects that we've been discussing
                                  > > here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
                                  > > lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
                                  > > for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
                                  > > Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
                                  > > when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
                                  > > "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
                                  > > detectors just for his talk?
                                  > >
                                  > > You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                                  > > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
                                  > > at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."
                                  > >
                                  > > BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
                                  > > read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?
                                  > >
                                  > > Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
                                  > > the table.
                                  > >
                                  > > Prometheus
                                  > >
                                  > > rosemarie wrote:
                                  > > Hi Diana,
                                  > >
                                  > > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on
                                  this
                                  > path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been
                                  > to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that
                                  > honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that
                                  truth
                                  > is truth and will always be the truth.
                                  > >
                                  > > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we
                                  > follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching
                                  > which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's
                                  remember,
                                  > we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much
                                  to
                                  > bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
                                  > >
                                  > > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it
                                  hurts
                                  > sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we
                                  must
                                  > be brave and remain in truth.
                                  > >
                                  > > Thank you for getting back to me.
                                  > > Rosemarie
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > dianastanley wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any
                                  > direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from
                                  > personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time. If it is
                                  > hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew and was
                                  > their experience I also say.
                                  > >
                                  > > Diana Stanley
                                  > >
                                  > > Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who
                                  > are searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
                                  > findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
                                  > thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.
                                  > >
                                  > I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                                  > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
                                  > have allot to bring to the table.
                                  > >
                                  > I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
                                  > called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
                                  > site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because
                                  > I'd raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
                                  > well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
                                  > complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
                                  > thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely
                                  > objective.
                                  >
                                  > For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
                                  > paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
                                  > >
                                  > I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
                                  > within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on
                                  > the facts.
                                  > >
                                  > I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
                                  > the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
                                  > belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking.
                                  > Do you?
                                  >
                                • etznab@aol.com
                                  One of Paul Twitchell s first reported journey s with Rebazar Tarzs mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme. Check the index section for Ocean
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Sep 14, 2011
                                    One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar Tarzs
                                    mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme. Check the
                                    index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with the Master.

                                    The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless region,
                                    [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called THE FACE OF
                                    GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying: [Quoting
                                    >] "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the light of
                                    God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes could not look
                                    upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean of Love
                                    and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return in time."
                                    (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)

                                    Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in the House
                                    of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens. Ye cannot
                                    go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with my divine
                                    self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in the divine
                                    cause!"

                                    Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the Master, has
                                    Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting snippet]:

                                    "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in a
                                    mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
                                    attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
                                    "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and after
                                    this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul reaches
                                    the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or the SUGMAD,
                                    the supreme LORD of all that exists."

                                    http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html

                                    Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the description
                                    slightly:

                                    "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the Sat Nam in
                                    a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in all Sat
                                    Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the three
                                    remaining known planes.
                                    "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
                                    after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam Purusha, or
                                    lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region of the
                                    nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first you know
                                    about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the Divine.
                                    "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."

                                    http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html

                                    Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is illustrated (by
                                    Paul Twitchell) slightly different.

                                    "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam Lok.
                                    Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the end of its
                                    journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the supreme
                                    lord of all that exists."

                                    http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html

                                    The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok, Alak Lok,
                                    Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with Ocean of
                                    Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip mention of
                                    Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.

                                    In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master, Introduction to
                                    Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes similarly, and
                                    in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain sections from
                                    The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:

                                    "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit is
                                    expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal, Nirala,
                                    Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
                                    Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country

                                    http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html

                                    "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many words, such
                                    as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala, Anami, Agam,
                                    Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar, Parameshwar,
                                    Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters

                                    http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html

                                    Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent from the
                                    Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR vs.
                                    Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian Johnson's book,
                                    The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The Far
                                    Country, by at least three decades!

                                    Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word, trademarked
                                    it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is somehow more
                                    than a paraphrase.











                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                                    <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Wed, Sep 14, 2011 11:17 am
                                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: "The Dark Side of ECKankar" -
                                    And More!

                                     
                                    Hello Postekcon and All,
                                    Yes, it was always a conundrum
                                    trying to recruit new members
                                    via "spreading the word" i.e.
                                    manure. However, we had
                                    structured public workshops
                                    and/or book discussions with
                                    Guidelines spelling out what
                                    to do and how to do it.

                                    Some RESA areas did experimental
                                    programs (special projects),
                                    and if successful, the ESC
                                    tweaked them to be used
                                    elsewhere. It was all quite
                                    time consuming and frustrating.
                                    Local areas and the H.I.s were
                                    always judged on the numbers
                                    of newbies showing up for
                                    these events. Most people
                                    were repeats and were into
                                    metaphysics or were the friends,
                                    coworkers or relatives of Eckists.

                                    I recall that one local area
                                    of a neighboring state was
                                    having a lot of success via
                                    large turnouts of newbies.
                                    They probably had a couple
                                    of hundred newbies in one
                                    year and that was practically
                                    unheard of in Eckankar. Several
                                    of these H.I.s were very proud
                                    of the "high counts" they turned
                                    in to the ESC. However, out
                                    of all of those newbies only
                                    about ten joined Eckankar
                                    and only, maybe, one or two
                                    remained after a year. These,
                                    I doubt, remained for the
                                    long haul. Let's face it, it's
                                    a dead end religion where
                                    one pretends, i.e. imagines
                                    or visualizes, their desires
                                    for "spiritual" progress and
                                    "knowingness" or "realization"
                                    of varying degrees. The initiation
                                    game is the main, underlying,
                                    theme. The problem, for Eckists,
                                    is that dangling carrot when
                                    initiations have been "slowed-
                                    down" for 25 years and the
                                    highest most can go is the 7th!

                                    Those 7th initiates who had
                                    hit the glass ceiling 20 or more
                                    years ago have rationalized
                                    it all away. They only stay in
                                    EK because they have some
                                    prestige, a lot of Eck friends,
                                    and have paid their dues with
                                    a lot of vahana and satsang
                                    work over the years. Plus, they've
                                    been taught to "imagine" and
                                    visualize, therefore, all they
                                    need to do is pretend they are
                                    8ths (on the inner). Most pretend
                                    they are higher than 8ths. After
                                    all, Darwin skipped or sped up
                                    initiations even for Klemp. So,
                                    if it was valid, then, why not
                                    today? Actually, just about all
                                    Eckists pretent they are "higher"
                                    than the number printed on
                                    their Membership Cards.

                                    Anyway, the reason why
                                    the EK Youth effort has
                                    gained some momentum
                                    over the years is because
                                    it's easier to brainwash a
                                    controlled subject. However,
                                    that doesn't always work,
                                    either, when these young
                                    Eckists see their parents
                                    act so nutty and non-Eck
                                    like. Plus, reclusive Klemp
                                    puts a lot of pressure upon
                                    them to do the vahana/
                                    missionary thing when
                                    it's tough enough getting
                                    through school and those
                                    teen years. Klemp doesn't
                                    have any empathy. He was
                                    in a Lutheran all boys high
                                    school and never learned
                                    about dating until he got
                                    out of the Air Force (1968)
                                    when he was 26 years old!

                                    One has to wonder why
                                    Klemp doesn't do his fair
                                    share of public vahana work.
                                    Why doesn't he have a radio
                                    show or do and say something
                                    in real time? The EK Seminars
                                    don't count. That's for maybe
                                    a hundred newbies who aren't
                                    all that "new" and for his brain-
                                    washed followers.

                                    In theory, Klemp's real "spiritual"
                                    mission is to help his followers
                                    achieve God Realization. However,
                                    what Initiation level is the indicator
                                    that this has been accomplished?

                                    According to Book 2, CH. 12 of
                                    the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad (Eckankar's
                                    Holy Book) their God, Sugmad,
                                    resides on the 10th Plane, however,
                                    Eckists must have the 11th Initiation
                                    for "entrance into the Sugmad world,
                                    which is the highest world of God,
                                    if any, may enter."

                                    Of course, that's not quite true either
                                    since there're the 12th, 13th, and 14th
                                    initiations after this one. This, then,
                                    is where one (supposedly) enters into
                                    Soul's true home called The Ocean of
                                    love and Mercy. However, one can see
                                    why EK Higher initiates (5-7) become
                                    internally frustrated since, except for
                                    a handful of people, they will never
                                    even see the 8th initiation (in this
                                    lifetime). That's the Catch/Con that
                                    Twitchell invented and Klemp inherited.
                                    Hope via promises for a better afterlife
                                    while imagining day-to-day miracles
                                    and dreaming about one's pre-programmed
                                    expectations. It's how any and every
                                    religion works.

                                    Prometheus

                                    "postekcon" wrote:
                                    Re
                                    >>>
                                    ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                                    "common language" but it's not
                                    quite true. ECK is not a common
                                    word and neither is Mahanta.
                                    And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                                    to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                                    others worship or think he is speaking
                                    about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                                    use the word GOD when it's not
                                    who or what they are referring
                                    to. It's like comparing apples
                                    to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                                    start out, and are trained, to be
                                    deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                                    fact alone makes Eckankar look
                                    very cult like. But, why the lie?
                                    The "common language" excuse
                                    doesn't hold water but Eckists
                                    can't question this underhanded
                                    practice or else they can have
                                    their position taken away and
                                    can be Black Listed and shunned.
                                    >>>

                                    For the past ten years, I have observed this pattern.

                                    Hard working HIs (50-70yrs plus) busy putting on Intro Talks,
                                    occasionally
                                    enrolling a new recruit to ekult.

                                    However, within a year or two, the new recruit leaves ekult as nothing
                                    makes
                                    sense! Of course, the HIs, unable to look at either themselves or
                                    ekult, always
                                    blame the new recruit with comments such as lack of unfoldment etc!

                                    For the new recruit, the reason nothing makes sense, I've observed, is
                                    thus. The
                                    HIs bring the new recruit into Paul Twitchell/Darwin Gross ekult; the
                                    ekult into
                                    which they themselved were enrolled. Now this version of ekult promised
                                    it had
                                    the tools for self/god realization in this lifetime etc. However,
                                    several MW
                                    (Mystic World) issues later, the new recruit comes to understand these
                                    'good
                                    people' lied to them!
                                    -Postekcon

                                    In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                                    <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hello All,
                                    > Just thought I'd share some
                                    > additional comments to what
                                    > Starshine wrote.
                                    >
                                    > starshine917 wrote:
                                    > Hello prometheus_973:
                                    > Remember me? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writing to you
                                    now….exactly, one
                                    > year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I didn't
                                    plan it like
                                    > this but somehow it just worked out this way.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ME: Yes, it takes awhile for the
                                    > realization to occur and sink in
                                    > even after one decides to look
                                    > for and analyze it via critical
                                    > thinking while giving HK's/PT's
                                    > redundant words a litmus test
                                    > for truthiness.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I recently left Eckankar. And, you were right….I read David Lane's
                                    paper as
                                    well as Ford Johnson's "Confessions of a God Seeker" And, for some
                                    reason at
                                    that time I remained in the group tying to focus on the so-called
                                    positive side
                                    of the Eckankar, the hypnotic rederick that goes nowhere while ignoring
                                    the
                                    facts.

                                    > I then started to take a good look at Harold…looked into his
                                    "dark" eyes and
                                    > listened to his figure of monotone speak and I realized it was
                                    very hypnotic,
                                    > and at the same time very inviting. I wondered who or what was
                                    inside of those
                                    > dark eyes….And they seem to always come as "the light". Yes, the
                                    "angel of
                                    > light".
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ME: Klemp is no angel of light! He spreads
                                    > darkness and delusion while denying Eckists
                                    > their true nature as Soul. He gives (hope),
                                    > promises (higher plane initiations), and then
                                    > takes it all away (hope of ever getting beyond
                                    > the 7th initiation while in this lifetime, unless,
                                    > one pretends or imagines they are higher
                                    > via vanity and frustration).
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I was in a satsang at that time and I found it disturbing more and
                                    more that
                                    his
                                    > same picture of himself, which by the way never changes, the one
                                    and only
                                    > picture that has to be present at all Eckankar meetings was never
                                    questioned
                                    by
                                    > it's members. All the books we studied were written by him and
                                    only him !!!
                                    And
                                    > how some members were "higher" than others depending on their
                                    "initiation"
                                    > number, even if these people knew absolutely nothing except what
                                    was written
                                    in
                                    > the books of Eckankar. Some of these people seemed to have anger
                                    issues too
                                    > which didn't seem to fit the spiritual portrait of a saint they
                                    painted. I
                                    > started to feel uncomfortable around these people cause they
                                    seemed more and
                                    > more to me like mind-controlled slaves. And, they too could see
                                    that I was
                                    > thinking and starting to pull away because I no longer looked to
                                    them without
                                    > question, with blind authority.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ME: Yes, that more youthful looking
                                    > Official Picture of Klemp's is a vain act,
                                    > but is never questioned because to do
                                    > so would get one Black Listed on initiations.
                                    > Those longtime Eckists who are part
                                    > of the RESA Hierarchy know what I'm
                                    > saying. Some H.I.s are fearful/cautious
                                    > of the spies that report to the RESA and
                                    > only share certain things (anti-Guideline
                                    > comments, etc.) around those H.I.s they
                                    > can trust.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > BTW- There are some books, that Klemp
                                    > has approved of, written by non-Eck
                                    > authors that Eckists can read. However,
                                    > the Eckist must always focus upon the
                                    > ECK or Mahanta when reading these
                                    > books and, thus, give up free, unfettered,
                                    > thought. Some of these books are
                                    > recommended to those in leadership
                                    > positions and are business oriented.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > So, it wasn't a good mix to say the very least. I finally had it
                                    out with one
                                    of
                                    > the members and I realized that I already left…In my heart, I
                                    choose to follow
                                    > truth and I also realized that that in Eckankar, I was being
                                    deceived. And I
                                    > realized that I couldn't have it both ways. I had to pick my
                                    convictions and
                                    go
                                    > with them. After all, why would I go against my own self, and what
                                    was in my
                                    > heart?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ME: It's the easy way to place an
                                    > authority figure on a shelf higher
                                    > than yourself. Less thinking and
                                    > effort is involved when blind trust
                                    > takes over. It's lazy but that's what
                                    > people do. Look at how we allow
                                    > the politicians to say and do as
                                    > they please without taking responsibility.
                                    > With Klemp, it's always the chela's
                                    > fault and never his own! He slowed-
                                    > down initiations in 1985, but doesn't
                                    > need to explain why these haven't
                                    > sped up because he answers to
                                    > nobody else, except, Sugmad right?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > In Eckankar it is taught to open and follow your heart but yet, if
                                    you dare
                                    open
                                    > your mind and begin to ask challenging questions, you're in
                                    trouble because
                                    > these people think the Mahanta in Eckankar is above all else and
                                    should never
                                    be
                                    > questioned, and your heart should be open to "him", the self
                                    appointed master,
                                    > Harold Klemp. Even if the members of Eckankar are not honest with
                                    themselves
                                    > enough to admit it consciously. On a subconscious level, they know
                                    better !!!
                                    >
                                    > ME: That following your heart
                                    > thing is more about the Astral
                                    > Heart Chakra... which is lower
                                    > than the Third Eye or Tisra Til!
                                    > Why didn't Klemp at least use
                                    > the (Astral) Crown Chakra when
                                    > having Eckists HU? After 30 years
                                    > and HK still has Eckists HUing
                                    > and focusing upon the 6th,
                                    > Third Eye, Astral Chakra versus
                                    > the 7th Crown Chakra!
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > The shame of it all is that this deception is done in the name of
                                    an
                                    > unconditional open heart to give love, which it is true, a part of
                                    GOD's flow
                                    > but where's the truth ? What happened to that part of GOD ??? I
                                    guess it got
                                    > lost in the sea of love…
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                                    > "common language" but it's not
                                    > quite true. ECK is not a common
                                    > word and neither is Mahanta.
                                    > And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                                    > to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                                    > others worship or think he is speaking
                                    > about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                                    > use the word GOD when it's not
                                    > who or what they are referring
                                    > to. It's like comparing apples
                                    > to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                                    > start out, and are trained, to be
                                    > deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                                    > fact alone makes Eckankar look
                                    > very cult like. But, why the lie?
                                    > The "common language" excuse
                                    > doesn't hold water but Eckists
                                    > can't question this underhanded
                                    > practice or else they can have
                                    > their position taken away and
                                    > be Black Listed and shunned.
                                    >
                                    > Prometheus
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Hello prometheus_973;
                                    > Remember me ? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writ
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Hello Rosemarie,
                                    > > I am a seeker of Truth as well.
                                    > > And yes, this article on "The Dark
                                    > > Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
                                    > > there is a dark side to Eckankar and
                                    > > there is also fear.
                                    > >
                                    > > I find it interesting that you've
                                    > > read (and I assume have contemplated
                                    > > upon) David Lane's research as well as
                                    > > Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
                                    > > and have, still, remained an ECKist.
                                    > >
                                    > > What happened to your "critical thinking?"
                                    > > Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
                                    > > you agree with some of it but not all of
                                    > > it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
                                    > > I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
                                    > > isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
                                    > > what they believe than any other religion
                                    > > they've found. Is that the case with you?
                                    > >
                                    > > I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
                                    > > book, threw it away (because of the bad
                                    > > vibes), and then placed themselves upon
                                    > > pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
                                    > > and talk Eckists through their doubts and
                                    > > concerns.
                                    > >
                                    > > You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
                                    > > not all truth is the same. That's why there
                                    > > are so many churches. People are social
                                    > > animals and tend to seek out others with
                                    > > similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
                                    > > to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
                                    > > to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
                                    > > and a test for Soul.
                                    > >
                                    > > I also got the impression that you don't
                                    > > participate much within the RESA structure.
                                    > > Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
                                    > > Do you know that you have to watch what
                                    > > you say? You've observed and learned that
                                    > > correct? You do care about being promoted
                                    > > to that next initiation right?
                                    > >
                                    > > Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
                                    > > take on the subjects that we've been discussing
                                    > > here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
                                    > > lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
                                    > > for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
                                    > > Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
                                    > > when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
                                    > > "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
                                    > > detectors just for his talk?
                                    > >
                                    > > You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                                    > > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
                                    > > at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."
                                    > >
                                    > > BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
                                    > > read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?
                                    > >
                                    > > Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
                                    > > the table.
                                    > >
                                    > > Prometheus
                                    > >
                                    > > rosemarie wrote:
                                    > > Hi Diana,
                                    > >
                                    > > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar
                                    and while on
                                    this
                                    > path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as
                                    well. I've been
                                    > to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I
                                    agree that
                                    > honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also
                                    understand that
                                    truth
                                    > is truth and will always be the truth.
                                    > >
                                    > > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless
                                    of what path we
                                    > follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are
                                    all searching
                                    > which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and
                                    let's
                                    remember,
                                    > we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We
                                    have so much
                                    to
                                    > bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and
                                    experience.
                                    > >
                                    > > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it
                                    even if it
                                    hurts
                                    > sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back
                                    to GOD, we
                                    must
                                    > be brave and remain in truth.
                                    > >
                                    > > Thank you for getting back to me.
                                    > > Rosemarie
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > dianastanley wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you
                                    have any
                                    > direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it
                                    is from
                                    > personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time.
                                    If it is
                                    > hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew
                                    and was
                                    > their experience I also say.
                                    > >
                                    > > Diana Stanley
                                    > >
                                    > > Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for
                                    those of you who
                                    > are searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for
                                    sharing your
                                    > findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light"
                                    of critical
                                    > thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.
                                    > >
                                    > I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar
                                    has issues.
                                    > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this
                                    site, so we
                                    > have allot to bring to the table.
                                    > >
                                    > I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used
                                    in this paper
                                    > called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links"
                                    in this web
                                    > site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of
                                    challenge because
                                    > I'd raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this
                                    paper as
                                    > well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be
                                    painted with
                                    > complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of
                                    critical
                                    > thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being
                                    completely
                                    > objective.
                                    >
                                    > For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack
                                    ECKankar in this
                                    > paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they
                                    originated.
                                    > >
                                    > I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure
                                    is overdo
                                    > within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is
                                    based on
                                    > the facts.
                                    > >
                                    > I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't
                                    think
                                    > the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within
                                    one religious
                                    > belief system and exchange them for another in the name of
                                    critical thinking.
                                    > Do you?
                                    >
                                  • prometheus_973
                                    Hello Etznab and All, It is interesting that Twitchell has his Rebazar character (the Master who initiated him) indicate that there were 8 Planes just as
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Sep 16, 2011
                                      Hello Etznab and All,
                                      It is interesting that Twitchell
                                      has his Rebazar character (the
                                      "Master" who initiated him)
                                      indicate that there were 8 Planes
                                      just as Radhasomi and Ruhani
                                      Satsang have listed in "The Path
                                      of the Masters." Since Kirpal
                                      Singh, of Ruhani Satsang, was
                                      Paul's real life Master for ten years
                                      it's no wonder that this dogma was
                                      influential in the design of Eckankar.

                                      Of course, Twitchell was constantly
                                      tweaking, revising, and masking his
                                      religious con as time went by.

                                      The Anami Lok (10th Plane where
                                      "Sugmad" resides) didn't appear until
                                      later. Did Rebazar simply forget to
                                      mention this as well as the "Mahanta?"
                                      Did RT think that Paul needed to be
                                      spoon-fed and wasn't ready for this
                                      advanced "spiritual" info? No, not really.
                                      According to Twitchell he had been
                                      given the 12th and "final initiation"
                                      (to become LEM) back in 1951 by
                                      Rebazar while on his "2nd" visit to
                                      India. See, the timeline is off for this
                                      ekplanation to be taken seriously as
                                      well.

                                      Therefore, there is no rational excuse
                                      for these inconsistencies except to
                                      admit that the "rascal" Twitchell was,
                                      once again, "exaggerating" and "twisting
                                      facts" as even Klemp has described
                                      and said of him. Klemp, years ago,
                                      had to admit that Twitchell was a self-
                                      promoter and did or said whatever
                                      he needed to do ("By Any Means Necessary")
                                      in order to get Eckankar off the ground.

                                      This is why Klemp, at first, had a
                                      difficult job of explaining Twitchell's
                                      inconsistencies and needed to keep
                                      Eckists confused, busy, and off-balance.
                                      Now, Eckists are so brainwashed that
                                      Klemp can say whatever in his simple
                                      minded redundant versions of feel-good
                                      New Age spirituality.


                                      Prometheus



                                      etznab wrote:

                                      One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar Tarzs
                                      mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme. Check the
                                      index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with the Master.

                                      The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless region,
                                      [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called THE FACE OF
                                      GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying: [Quoting]
                                      "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the light of
                                      God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes could not look
                                      upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean of Love
                                      and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return in time."
                                      (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)

                                      Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in the House
                                      of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens. Ye cannot
                                      go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with my divine
                                      self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in the divine
                                      cause!"

                                      Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the Master, has
                                      Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting snippet]:

                                      "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in a
                                      mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
                                      attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
                                      "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and after
                                      this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul reaches
                                      the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or the SUGMAD,
                                      the supreme LORD of all that exists."

                                      http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html

                                      Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the description
                                      slightly:

                                      "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the Sat Nam in
                                      a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in all Sat
                                      Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the three
                                      remaining known planes.

                                      "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
                                      after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam Purusha, or
                                      lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region of the
                                      nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first you know
                                      about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the Divine.

                                      "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."

                                      http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html

                                      Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is illustrated (by
                                      Paul Twitchell) slightly different.

                                      "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam Lok.
                                      Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the end of its
                                      journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the supreme
                                      lord of all that exists."

                                      http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html

                                      The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok, Alak Lok,
                                      Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with Ocean of
                                      Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip mention of
                                      Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.

                                      In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master, Introduction to
                                      Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes similarly, and
                                      in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain sections from
                                      The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:

                                      "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit is
                                      expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal, Nirala,
                                      Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
                                      Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country

                                      http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html

                                      "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many words, such
                                      as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala, Anami, Agam,
                                      Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar, Parameshwar,
                                      Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters

                                      http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html

                                      Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent from the
                                      Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR vs.
                                      Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian Johnson's book,
                                      The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The Far
                                      Country, by at least three decades!

                                      Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word, trademarked
                                      it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is somehow more
                                      than a paraphrase.
                                    • etznab18
                                      Almost didn t see this response because the e-mail bounced. Umm ... about the self-promotion, whatever, people can read about some of the history here.
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Sep 16, 2011
                                        Almost didn't see this response because the e-mail bounced.

                                        Umm ... about the self-promotion, whatever, people can read about some of the history here.

                                        http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html

                                        Check out 4th paragraph of article entitled: Paul's Seal of Approval.

                                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Hello Etznab and All,
                                        > It is interesting that Twitchell
                                        > has his Rebazar character (the
                                        > "Master" who initiated him)
                                        > indicate that there were 8 Planes
                                        > just as Radhasomi and Ruhani
                                        > Satsang have listed in "The Path
                                        > of the Masters." Since Kirpal
                                        > Singh, of Ruhani Satsang, was
                                        > Paul's real life Master for ten years
                                        > it's no wonder that this dogma was
                                        > influential in the design of Eckankar.
                                        >
                                        > Of course, Twitchell was constantly
                                        > tweaking, revising, and masking his
                                        > religious con as time went by.
                                        >
                                        > The Anami Lok (10th Plane where
                                        > "Sugmad" resides) didn't appear until
                                        > later. Did Rebazar simply forget to
                                        > mention this as well as the "Mahanta?"
                                        > Did RT think that Paul needed to be
                                        > spoon-fed and wasn't ready for this
                                        > advanced "spiritual" info? No, not really.
                                        > According to Twitchell he had been
                                        > given the 12th and "final initiation"
                                        > (to become LEM) back in 1951 by
                                        > Rebazar while on his "2nd" visit to
                                        > India. See, the timeline is off for this
                                        > ekplanation to be taken seriously as
                                        > well.
                                        >
                                        > Therefore, there is no rational excuse
                                        > for these inconsistencies except to
                                        > admit that the "rascal" Twitchell was,
                                        > once again, "exaggerating" and "twisting
                                        > facts" as even Klemp has described
                                        > and said of him. Klemp, years ago,
                                        > had to admit that Twitchell was a self-
                                        > promoter and did or said whatever
                                        > he needed to do ("By Any Means Necessary")
                                        > in order to get Eckankar off the ground.
                                        >
                                        > This is why Klemp, at first, had a
                                        > difficult job of explaining Twitchell's
                                        > inconsistencies and needed to keep
                                        > Eckists confused, busy, and off-balance.
                                        > Now, Eckists are so brainwashed that
                                        > Klemp can say whatever in his simple
                                        > minded redundant versions of feel-good
                                        > New Age spirituality.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Prometheus
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > etznab wrote:
                                        >
                                        > One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar Tarzs
                                        > mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme. Check the
                                        > index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with the Master.
                                        >
                                        > The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless region,
                                        > [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called THE FACE OF
                                        > GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying: [Quoting]
                                        > "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the light of
                                        > God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes could not look
                                        > upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean of Love
                                        > and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return in time."
                                        > (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)
                                        >
                                        > Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in the House
                                        > of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens. Ye cannot
                                        > go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with my divine
                                        > self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in the divine
                                        > cause!"
                                        >
                                        > Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the Master, has
                                        > Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting snippet]:
                                        >
                                        > "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in a
                                        > mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
                                        > attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
                                        > "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and after
                                        > this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul reaches
                                        > the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or the SUGMAD,
                                        > the supreme LORD of all that exists."
                                        >
                                        > http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html
                                        >
                                        > Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the description
                                        > slightly:
                                        >
                                        > "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the Sat Nam in
                                        > a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in all Sat
                                        > Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the three
                                        > remaining known planes.
                                        >
                                        > "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
                                        > after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam Purusha, or
                                        > lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region of the
                                        > nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first you know
                                        > about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the Divine.
                                        >
                                        > "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."
                                        >
                                        > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                        >
                                        > Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is illustrated (by
                                        > Paul Twitchell) slightly different.
                                        >
                                        > "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam Lok.
                                        > Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the end of its
                                        > journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the supreme
                                        > lord of all that exists."
                                        >
                                        > http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html
                                        >
                                        > The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok, Alak Lok,
                                        > Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with Ocean of
                                        > Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip mention of
                                        > Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.
                                        >
                                        > In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master, Introduction to
                                        > Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes similarly, and
                                        > in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain sections from
                                        > The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:
                                        >
                                        > "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit is
                                        > expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal, Nirala,
                                        > Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
                                        > Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country
                                        >
                                        > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                        >
                                        > "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many words, such
                                        > as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala, Anami, Agam,
                                        > Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar, Parameshwar,
                                        > Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters
                                        >
                                        > http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html
                                        >
                                        > Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent from the
                                        > Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR vs.
                                        > Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian Johnson's book,
                                        > The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The Far
                                        > Country, by at least three decades!
                                        >
                                        > Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word, trademarked
                                        > it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is somehow more
                                        > than a paraphrase.
                                        >
                                      • prometheus_973
                                        Hello Etznab and All, This tells how Paul Twitchell was His Own Drum Beater: http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html What s interesting is that at
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Sep 17, 2011
                                          Hello Etznab and All,
                                          This tells how Paul Twitchell
                                          was His Own Drum Beater:

                                          http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html

                                          What's interesting is that at age 27 (1935)
                                          Twitchell was saying that he had been
                                          to India (supposedly at age 15 to meet
                                          Rebazar for the first time, DOBTLEM).
                                          However, Klemp points out that Twitchell
                                          was doing another self-promotion, and
                                          was lying in order to get into Who's Who
                                          in Kentucky. Klemp states that Twitchell
                                          had never been all that far from home
                                          at age 27. Klemp seems to have stepped
                                          into a big pile of Twits mess. HK's
                                          statement contradicts what Twitchell
                                          revealed in Difficulties of Becoming the
                                          Living ECK Master circa July, 1971. This
                                          1971 date is, supposedly, long after Twitchell
                                          (the Mahanta) was was no longer "exaggerating"
                                          and "twisting facts." However, as Klemp
                                          has pointed out Twitchell was still lying
                                          and promoting his con up until his untimely
                                          and death in September, 1971.

                                          Prometheus

                                          etznab@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Almost didn't see this response because the e-mail bounced.
                                          >
                                          > Umm ... about the self-promotion, whatever, people can read about some of the history here.
                                          >
                                          > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html
                                          >
                                          > Check out 4th paragraph of article entitled: Paul's Seal of Approval.
                                          >
                                          > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > Hello Etznab and All,
                                          > > It is interesting that Twitchell
                                          > > has his Rebazar character (the
                                          > > "Master" who initiated him)
                                          > > indicate that there were 8 Planes
                                          > > just as Radhasomi and Ruhani
                                          > > Satsang have listed in "The Path
                                          > > of the Masters." Since Kirpal
                                          > > Singh, of Ruhani Satsang, was
                                          > > Paul's real life Master for ten years
                                          > > it's no wonder that this dogma was
                                          > > influential in the design of Eckankar.
                                          > >
                                          > > Of course, Twitchell was constantly
                                          > > tweaking, revising, and masking his
                                          > > religious con as time went by.
                                          > >
                                          > > The Anami Lok (10th Plane where
                                          > > "Sugmad" resides) didn't appear until
                                          > > later. Did Rebazar simply forget to
                                          > > mention this as well as the "Mahanta?"
                                          > > Did RT think that Paul needed to be
                                          > > spoon-fed and wasn't ready for this
                                          > > advanced "spiritual" info? No, not really.
                                          > > According to Twitchell he had been
                                          > > given the 12th and "final initiation"
                                          > > (to become LEM) back in 1951 by
                                          > > Rebazar while on his "2nd" visit to
                                          > > India. See, the timeline is off for this
                                          > > ekplanation to be taken seriously as
                                          > > well.
                                          > >
                                          > > Therefore, there is no rational excuse
                                          > > for these inconsistencies except to
                                          > > admit that the "rascal" Twitchell was,
                                          > > once again, "exaggerating" and "twisting
                                          > > facts" as even Klemp has described
                                          > > and said of him. Klemp, years ago,
                                          > > had to admit that Twitchell was a self-
                                          > > promoter and did or said whatever
                                          > > he needed to do ("By Any Means Necessary")
                                          > > in order to get Eckankar off the ground.
                                          > >
                                          > > This is why Klemp, at first, had a
                                          > > difficult job of explaining Twitchell's
                                          > > inconsistencies and needed to keep
                                          > > Eckists confused, busy, and off-balance.
                                          > > Now, Eckists are so brainwashed that
                                          > > Klemp can say whatever in his simple
                                          > > minded redundant versions of feel-good
                                          > > New Age spirituality.
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Prometheus
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > etznab wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar Tarzs
                                          > > mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme. Check the
                                          > > index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with the Master.
                                          > >
                                          > > The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless region,
                                          > > [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called THE FACE OF
                                          > > GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying: [Quoting]
                                          > > "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the light of
                                          > > God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes could not look
                                          > > upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean of Love
                                          > > and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return in time."
                                          > > (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)
                                          > >
                                          > > Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in the House
                                          > > of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens. Ye cannot
                                          > > go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with my divine
                                          > > self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in the divine
                                          > > cause!"
                                          > >
                                          > > Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the Master, has
                                          > > Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting snippet]:
                                          > >
                                          > > "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in a
                                          > > mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
                                          > > attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
                                          > > "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and after
                                          > > this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul reaches
                                          > > the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or the SUGMAD,
                                          > > the supreme LORD of all that exists."
                                          > >
                                          > > http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html
                                          > >
                                          > > Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the description
                                          > > slightly:
                                          > >
                                          > > "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the Sat Nam in
                                          > > a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in all Sat
                                          > > Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the three
                                          > > remaining known planes.
                                          > >
                                          > > "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
                                          > > after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam Purusha, or
                                          > > lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region of the
                                          > > nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first you know
                                          > > about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the Divine.
                                          > >
                                          > > "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."
                                          > >
                                          > > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                          > >
                                          > > Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is illustrated (by
                                          > > Paul Twitchell) slightly different.
                                          > >
                                          > > "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam Lok.
                                          > > Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the end of its
                                          > > journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the supreme
                                          > > lord of all that exists."
                                          > >
                                          > > http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html
                                          > >
                                          > > The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok, Alak Lok,
                                          > > Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with Ocean of
                                          > > Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip mention of
                                          > > Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.
                                          > >
                                          > > In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master, Introduction to
                                          > > Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes similarly, and
                                          > > in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain sections from
                                          > > The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:
                                          > >
                                          > > "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit is
                                          > > expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal, Nirala,
                                          > > Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
                                          > > Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country
                                          > >
                                          > > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                          > >
                                          > > "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many words, such
                                          > > as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala, Anami, Agam,
                                          > > Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar, Parameshwar,
                                          > > Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters
                                          > >
                                          > > http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html
                                          > >
                                          > > Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent from the
                                          > > Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR vs.
                                          > > Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian Johnson's book,
                                          > > The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The Far
                                          > > Country, by at least three decades!
                                          > >
                                          > > Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word, trademarked
                                          > > it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is somehow more
                                          > > than a paraphrase.
                                          > >
                                          >
                                        • etznab@aol.com
                                          I think a lot of people can overlook this stuff, thinking that whatever Paul Twitchell said/wrote must be the truth. Some people just might not care. Well,
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Sep 17, 2011
                                            I think a lot of people can overlook this stuff, thinking that whatever
                                            Paul Twitchell said/wrote must be the truth. Some people just might not
                                            care. Well, it's reasonable to suspect this talent - for promotion,
                                            even when it means making things up, stretching the truth, or just
                                            plain spinning lies - was used to "create" the Eckankar mythos.

                                            myth

                                            1830, from Gk. mythos "speech, thought, story, myth," of unknown origin.

                                            Myths are "stories about divine beings, generally arranged in a
                                            coherent system; they are revered as true and sacred; they are endorsed
                                            by rulers and priests; and closely linked to religion. Once this link
                                            is broken, and the actors in the story are not regarded as gods but as
                                            human heroes, giants or fairies, it is no longer a myth but a folktale.
                                            Where the central actor is divine but the story is trivial ... the
                                            result is religious legend, not myth." [J. Simpson & S. Roud,
                                            "Dictionary of English Folklore," Oxford, 2000, p.254]

                                            General sense of "untrue story, rumor" is from 1840.

                                            http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=mythos&searchmode=none

                                            In other words, amid all the compilations and recycled material, etc.,
                                            context has been changed (in various places) when it comes to source. I
                                            wonder, could Paul Twitchell have created "Eckankar" and at the same
                                            time given the source for all of his material? I noticed Kirpal Singh
                                            and others were very good at citing references and sharing what
                                            quote/saying came from who. So if Paul Twitchell ever chose to use
                                            passages and paragraphs from books, Did he always feel obligated to
                                            provide that information?

                                            As a promoter, I suspect the person wants to give credit to whatever
                                            they're promoting and not give more credit to "other products" instead.
                                            It makes sense (to me) that Paul Twitchell would "paint the name
                                            Eckankar" over so much material he had read (in so many words). Not
                                            only this, but it even appears probable that Paul Twitchell took
                                            liberty to respell and redefine words according to fit them in a new,
                                            and growing, Eckankar philosophy. Not only words, but names too!

                                            How extensive the promotion and PR campaign that created contemporary
                                            Eckankar teaching? In so many ways, it seems this is the part that
                                            doesn't agree with people. Not unless they knew from the beginning that
                                            information was not necessarily accurate and in some places embellished.

                                            embellish

                                            mid-14c., "to render beautiful," from O.Fr. embelliss-, stem of
                                            embellir "make beautiful, ornament," from em- (see en- (1)) + bel
                                            "beautiful," from L. bellus (see bene-). Meaning "dress up (a
                                            narration) with fictitious matter" is from mid-15c. Related:
                                            Embellished; embellishing.

                                            http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=embellished&searchmode=none

                                            Reading through early Eckankar books I think common sense might tell a
                                            person that parts of the material was embellished. At the same time I
                                            also think people could naturally so much want the material to be true
                                            that they allow imagination to "make it so" and overrule common sense.

                                            Ever observe what happens when you're part of a group where countless
                                            individuals believe in things - through imagination - that aren't
                                            necessarily true? I mean, when you're one of the unbelievers and part
                                            of the minority who question whether so many imagined things are true?


                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                                            <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Sent: Sat, Sep 17, 2011 2:14 am
                                            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: "The Dark Side of ECKankar" -
                                            And More!

                                             
                                            Hello Etznab and All,
                                            This tells how Paul Twitchell
                                            was His Own Drum Beater:

                                            http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html

                                            What's interesting is that at age 27 (1935)
                                            Twitchell was saying that he had been
                                            to India (supposedly at age 15 to meet
                                            Rebazar for the first time, DOBTLEM).
                                            However, Klemp points out that Twitchell
                                            was doing another self-promotion, and
                                            was lying in order to get into Who's Who
                                            in Kentucky. Klemp states that Twitchell
                                            had never been all that far from home
                                            at age 27. Klemp seems to have stepped
                                            into a big pile of Twits mess. HK's
                                            statement contradicts what Twitchell
                                            revealed in Difficulties of Becoming the
                                            Living ECK Master circa July, 1971. This
                                            1971 date is, supposedly, long after Twitchell
                                            (the Mahanta) was was no longer "exaggerating"
                                            and "twisting facts." However, as Klemp
                                            has pointed out Twitchell was still lying
                                            and promoting his con up until his untimely
                                            and death in September, 1971.

                                            Prometheus

                                            etznab@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Almost didn't see this response because the e-mail bounced.
                                            >
                                            > Umm ... about the self-promotion, whatever, people can read about
                                            some of the history here.
                                            >
                                            > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html
                                            >
                                            > Check out 4th paragraph of article entitled: Paul's Seal of
                                            Approval.
                                            >
                                            > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                                            "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > Hello Etznab and All,
                                            > > It is interesting that Twitchell
                                            > > has his Rebazar character (the
                                            > > "Master" who initiated him)
                                            > > indicate that there were 8 Planes
                                            > > just as Radhasomi and Ruhani
                                            > > Satsang have listed in "The Path
                                            > > of the Masters." Since Kirpal
                                            > > Singh, of Ruhani Satsang, was
                                            > > Paul's real life Master for ten years
                                            > > it's no wonder that this dogma was
                                            > > influential in the design of Eckankar.
                                            > >
                                            > > Of course, Twitchell was constantly
                                            > > tweaking, revising, and masking his
                                            > > religious con as time went by.
                                            > >
                                            > > The Anami Lok (10th Plane where
                                            > > "Sugmad" resides) didn't appear until
                                            > > later. Did Rebazar simply forget to
                                            > > mention this as well as the "Mahanta?"
                                            > > Did RT think that Paul needed to be
                                            > > spoon-fed and wasn't ready for this
                                            > > advanced "spiritual" info? No, not really.
                                            > > According to Twitchell he had been
                                            > > given the 12th and "final initiation"
                                            > > (to become LEM) back in 1951 by
                                            > > Rebazar while on his "2nd" visit to
                                            > > India. See, the timeline is off for this
                                            > > ekplanation to be taken seriously as
                                            > > well.
                                            > >
                                            > > Therefore, there is no rational excuse
                                            > > for these inconsistencies except to
                                            > > admit that the "rascal" Twitchell was,
                                            > > once again, "exaggerating" and "twisting
                                            > > facts" as even Klemp has described
                                            > > and said of him. Klemp, years ago,
                                            > > had to admit that Twitchell was a self-
                                            > > promoter and did or said whatever
                                            > > he needed to do ("By Any Means Necessary")
                                            > > in order to get Eckankar off the ground.
                                            > >
                                            > > This is why Klemp, at first, had a
                                            > > difficult job of explaining Twitchell's
                                            > > inconsistencies and needed to keep
                                            > > Eckists confused, busy, and off-balance.
                                            > > Now, Eckists are so brainwashed that
                                            > > Klemp can say whatever in his simple
                                            > > minded redundant versions of feel-good
                                            > > New Age spirituality.
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > Prometheus
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > etznab wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar
                                            Tarzs
                                            > > mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme.
                                            Check the
                                            > > index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with
                                            the Master.
                                            > >
                                            > > The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless
                                            region,
                                            > > [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called
                                            THE FACE OF
                                            > > GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying:
                                            [Quoting]
                                            > > "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the
                                            light of
                                            > > God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes
                                            could not look
                                            > > upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean
                                            of Love
                                            > > and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return
                                            in time."
                                            > > (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)
                                            > >
                                            > > Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in
                                            the House
                                            > > of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens.
                                            Ye cannot
                                            > > go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with
                                            my divine
                                            > > self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in
                                            the divine
                                            > > cause!"
                                            > >
                                            > > Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the
                                            Master, has
                                            > > Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting
                                            snippet]:
                                            > >
                                            > > "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in
                                            a
                                            > > mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
                                            > > attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
                                            > > "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
                                            after
                                            > > this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul
                                            reaches
                                            > > the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or
                                            the SUGMAD,
                                            > > the supreme LORD of all that exists."
                                            > >
                                            > > http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html
                                            > >
                                            > > Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the
                                            description
                                            > > slightly:
                                            > >
                                            > > "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the
                                            Sat Nam in
                                            > > a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in
                                            all Sat
                                            > > Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the
                                            three
                                            > > remaining known planes.
                                            > >
                                            > > "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha,
                                            and
                                            > > after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam
                                            Purusha, or
                                            > > lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region
                                            of the
                                            > > nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first
                                            you know
                                            > > about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the
                                            Divine.
                                            > >
                                            > > "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."
                                            > >
                                            > > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                            > >
                                            > > Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is
                                            illustrated (by
                                            > > Paul Twitchell) slightly different.
                                            > >
                                            > > "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam
                                            Lok.
                                            > > Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the
                                            end of its
                                            > > journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the
                                            supreme
                                            > > lord of all that exists."
                                            > >
                                            > > http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html
                                            > >
                                            > > The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok,
                                            Alak Lok,
                                            > > Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with
                                            Ocean of
                                            > > Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip
                                            mention of
                                            > > Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.
                                            > >
                                            > > In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master,
                                            Introduction to
                                            > > Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes
                                            similarly, and
                                            > > in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain
                                            sections from
                                            > > The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:
                                            > >
                                            > > "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit
                                            is
                                            > > expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal,
                                            Nirala,
                                            > > Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
                                            > > Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country
                                            > >
                                            > > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                            > >
                                            > > "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many
                                            words, such
                                            > > as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala,
                                            Anami, Agam,
                                            > > Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar,
                                            Parameshwar,
                                            > > Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters
                                            > >
                                            > > http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html
                                            > >
                                            > > Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent
                                            from the
                                            > > Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR
                                            vs.
                                            > > Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian
                                            Johnson's book,
                                            > > The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The
                                            Far
                                            > > Country, by at least three decades!
                                            > >
                                            > > Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word,
                                            trademarked
                                            > > it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is
                                            somehow more
                                            > > than a paraphrase.
                                            > >
                                            >
                                          • prometheus_973
                                            Hello Etznab and All, It s true that most Eckists have turned a blind eye towards their religion. However, it s done via Klemp s subtle and not so subtle
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Sep 17, 2011
                                              Hello Etznab and All,
                                              It's true that most Eckists have
                                              turned a blind eye towards their
                                              religion. However, it's done via
                                              Klemp's subtle and not so subtle
                                              intimidation tactics such as:

                                              Going to the "inner" to have
                                              one's questions answered...
                                              this is what the more "advanced"
                                              and "enlightened" Eckists do.

                                              Using the Buddha quote of, "Is
                                              it true, is it necessary, is it kind"
                                              this I ask myself before I speak
                                              my mind.

                                              HK writing articles and giving
                                              talks on the negativity of gossip
                                              and how it hinders one's "spiritual"
                                              growth.

                                              Also, there's the unspoken knowledge
                                              that those who ask too many questions,
                                              especially "wrong" questions, will get
                                              Eckists Black Listed on initiations or
                                              to have them slowed down 3-5 years
                                              (on average) longer than normal.

                                              Plus, Eckankar's Higher Initiates
                                              (5-7) are a very passive group
                                              and don't want to question the
                                              foundation of their religion because
                                              things are going okay so why rock
                                              the boat? Being an H.I. is an ego
                                              trip and a security blanket too.

                                              And, let's face it, most Eckists don't
                                              have the time or inclination to research
                                              the old, P.T., Eckankar texts. They've
                                              read it all before so why go back and
                                              read it with new eyes and a changed
                                              consciousness? However, it does make
                                              one wonder why they've allowed them-
                                              selves to be shackled to HK's dogma
                                              when it's all based upon Twitchell's
                                              "compilation."

                                              In PT's Eckankar Dictionary, Shariyat
                                              One and HK's First Lexicon, they
                                              tell about the first "root race" called
                                              the "POLARIANS." Klemp must agree
                                              with Twitchell on this dogmatic information
                                              since he put it into his own Eckankar
                                              Lexicon.

                                              But, do Eckists really believe in the
                                              Old Testament Christian Myth about
                                              the Garden of Eden? Actually, no,
                                              they don't! I've even read where
                                              they've made fun of this. How ironic!
                                              Twitchell not only states that the
                                              Garden of Eden existed but gives
                                              his own (revised) names of those
                                              present. In the ECK version Adam
                                              becomes "Adom" and Eve becomes
                                              "Ede" (like in Eden) This is, of course,
                                              a clear picture of how Twitchell created
                                              Eckankar. He took certain words,
                                              names, and information changed
                                              the text and letters around, or added
                                              and omitted letters, and made the
                                              info his own.

                                              What's really funny is that in defense
                                              of Twitchell Klemp has claimed that
                                              Paul "compiled" only the highest teachings
                                              from around the world in order to
                                              create the highest "spiritual" teaching
                                              anywhere and at anytime. Why then,
                                              did Twitchell use the Garden of Eden
                                              myth, and create Adom and Ede?
                                              Is this supposed to be the actual
                                              account while the Christian version
                                              is less accurate. This is how Eckists
                                              rationalize and explain everything
                                              (the truth) away. ECK is a facsimile
                                              and everything else is a copy. But
                                              this shows that all religions are
                                              distorted and inaccurate copies.

                                              It really should be embarrassing,
                                              for Eckists, since this information
                                              is listed in their first Holy Book
                                              under Polarian race (check the
                                              index for the page number).

                                              Plus, let's face it. This Garden
                                              of Eden myth is a non-evolutionary
                                              belief. It was devised during
                                              a time of ignorance and pre-science
                                              in order to give a religious explanation
                                              for creation. And, it's been revised
                                              even by early Christianity because
                                              Lillith was supposed to have been
                                              Adam's first mate who was created
                                              equally with him.

                                              Later, the creation myth story was
                                              changed so that Eve was created
                                              from Adam's rib in order to make
                                              her subservient to him... as Eckists
                                              are to subservient to Klemp. Thus,
                                              no female LEMs and even Mahantas
                                              are permitted due to some hokey
                                              negative atom ekplanation.


                                              But, Eckists are in denial of the truth
                                              as they continue to pretend they
                                              are advanced Souls. The mind is
                                              very powerful and that's why Eckankar
                                              appears to work for Eckists. The
                                              mind will give one the dreams
                                              and "signs" that are programmed
                                              into it via suggestion and expectation.
                                              However, isn't this the modus
                                              operandi of all religions? If one
                                              just Googles "miracles" one can
                                              see examples of faith and belief
                                              that would put any Eckist to shame.

                                              Therefore, why do Eckists not
                                              see the truth? Is it that they
                                              have tied up their camels, to
                                              a fraudent belief, and now, trust
                                              in a make believe God/Mahanta...
                                              Klemp? It is the Easy Way!

                                              Prometheus




                                              etznab@... wrote:
                                              I think a lot of people can overlook this stuff, thinking that whatever
                                              Paul Twitchell said/wrote must be the truth. Some people just might not
                                              care. Well, it's reasonable to suspect this talent - for promotion,
                                              even when it means making things up, stretching the truth, or just
                                              plain spinning lies - was used to "create" the Eckankar mythos.

                                              myth

                                              1830, from Gk. mythos "speech, thought, story, myth," of unknown origin.

                                              Myths are "stories about divine beings, generally arranged in a
                                              coherent system; they are revered as true and sacred; they are endorsed
                                              by rulers and priests; and closely linked to religion. Once this link
                                              is broken, and the actors in the story are not regarded as gods but as
                                              human heroes, giants or fairies, it is no longer a myth but a folktale.
                                              Where the central actor is divine but the story is trivial ... the
                                              result is religious legend, not myth." [J. Simpson & S. Roud,
                                              "Dictionary of English Folklore," Oxford, 2000, p.254]

                                              General sense of "untrue story, rumor" is from 1840.

                                              http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=mythos&searchmode=\
                                              \
                                              none

                                              In other words, amid all the compilations and recycled material, etc.,
                                              context has been changed (in various places) when it comes to source. I
                                              wonder, could Paul Twitchell have created "Eckankar" and at the same
                                              time given the source for all of his material? I noticed Kirpal Singh
                                              and others were very good at citing references and sharing what
                                              quote/saying came from who. So if Paul Twitchell ever chose to use
                                              passages and paragraphs from books, Did he always feel obligated to
                                              provide that information?

                                              As a promoter, I suspect the person wants to give credit to whatever
                                              they're promoting and not give more credit to "other products" instead.
                                              It makes sense (to me) that Paul Twitchell would "paint the name
                                              Eckankar" over so much material he had read (in so many words). Not
                                              only this, but it even appears probable that Paul Twitchell took
                                              liberty to respell and redefine words according to fit them in a new,
                                              and growing, Eckankar philosophy. Not only words, but names too!

                                              How extensive the promotion and PR campaign that created contemporary
                                              Eckankar teaching? In so many ways, it seems this is the part that
                                              doesn't agree with people. Not unless they knew from the beginning that
                                              information was not necessarily accurate and in some places embellished.

                                              embellish

                                              mid-14c., "to render beautiful," from O.Fr. embelliss-, stem of
                                              embellir "make beautiful, ornament," from em- (see en- (1)) + bel
                                              "beautiful," from L. bellus (see bene-). Meaning "dress up (a
                                              narration) with fictitious matter" is from mid-15c. Related:
                                              Embellished; embellishing.

                                              http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=embellished&search\
                                              \
                                              mode=none

                                              Reading through early Eckankar books I think common sense might tell a
                                              person that parts of the material was embellished. At the same time I
                                              also think people could naturally so much want the material to be true
                                              that they allow imagination to "make it so" and overrule common sense.

                                              Ever observe what happens when you're part of a group where countless
                                              individuals believe in things - through imagination - that aren't
                                              necessarily true? I mean, when you're one of the unbelievers and part
                                              of the minority who question whether so many imagined things are true?


                                              -----Original Message-----
                                              From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                                              <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                                              Sent: Sat, Sep 17, 2011 2:14 am
                                              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: "The Dark Side of ECKankar" -
                                              And More!

                                              Â
                                              Hello Etznab and All,
                                              This tells how Paul Twitchell
                                              was His Own Drum Beater:

                                              http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html

                                              What's interesting is that at age 27 (1935)
                                              Twitchell was saying that he had been
                                              to India (supposedly at age 15 to meet
                                              Rebazar for the first time, DOBTLEM).
                                              However, Klemp points out that Twitchell
                                              was doing another self-promotion, and
                                              was lying in order to get into Who's Who
                                              in Kentucky. Klemp states that Twitchell
                                              had never been all that far from home
                                              at age 27. Klemp seems to have stepped
                                              into a big pile of Twits mess. HK's
                                              statement contradicts what Twitchell
                                              revealed in Difficulties of Becoming the
                                              Living ECK Master circa July, 1971. This
                                              1971 date is, supposedly, long after Twitchell
                                              (the Mahanta) was was no longer "exaggerating"
                                              and "twisting facts." However, as Klemp
                                              has pointed out Twitchell was still lying
                                              and promoting his con up until his untimely
                                              and death in September, 1971.

                                              Prometheus

                                              etznab@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Almost didn't see this response because the e-mail bounced.
                                              >
                                              > Umm ... about the self-promotion, whatever, people can read about
                                              some of the history here.
                                              >
                                              > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html
                                              >
                                              > Check out 4th paragraph of article entitled: Paul's Seal of
                                              Approval.
                                              >
                                              > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                                              "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > Hello Etznab and All,
                                              > > It is interesting that Twitchell
                                              > > has his Rebazar character (the
                                              > > "Master" who initiated him)
                                              > > indicate that there were 8 Planes
                                              > > just as Radhasomi and Ruhani
                                              > > Satsang have listed in "The Path
                                              > > of the Masters." Since Kirpal
                                              > > Singh, of Ruhani Satsang, was
                                              > > Paul's real life Master for ten years
                                              > > it's no wonder that this dogma was
                                              > > influential in the design of Eckankar.
                                              > >
                                              > > Of course, Twitchell was constantly
                                              > > tweaking, revising, and masking his
                                              > > religious con as time went by.
                                              > >
                                              > > The Anami Lok (10th Plane where
                                              > > "Sugmad" resides) didn't appear until
                                              > > later. Did Rebazar simply forget to
                                              > > mention this as well as the "Mahanta?"
                                              > > Did RT think that Paul needed to be
                                              > > spoon-fed and wasn't ready for this
                                              > > advanced "spiritual" info? No, not really.
                                              > > According to Twitchell he had been
                                              > > given the 12th and "final initiation"
                                              > > (to become LEM) back in 1951 by
                                              > > Rebazar while on his "2nd" visit to
                                              > > India. See, the timeline is off for this
                                              > > ekplanation to be taken seriously as
                                              > > well.
                                              > >
                                              > > Therefore, there is no rational excuse
                                              > > for these inconsistencies except to
                                              > > admit that the "rascal" Twitchell was,
                                              > > once again, "exaggerating" and "twisting
                                              > > facts" as even Klemp has described
                                              > > and said of him. Klemp, years ago,
                                              > > had to admit that Twitchell was a self-
                                              > > promoter and did or said whatever
                                              > > he needed to do ("By Any Means Necessary")
                                              > > in order to get Eckankar off the ground.
                                              > >
                                              > > This is why Klemp, at first, had a
                                              > > difficult job of explaining Twitchell's
                                              > > inconsistencies and needed to keep
                                              > > Eckists confused, busy, and off-balance.
                                              > > Now, Eckists are so brainwashed that
                                              > > Klemp can say whatever in his simple
                                              > > minded redundant versions of feel-good
                                              > > New Age spirituality.
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > Prometheus
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > etznab wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar
                                              Tarzs
                                              > > mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme.
                                              Check the
                                              > > index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with
                                              the Master.
                                              > >
                                              > > The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless
                                              region,
                                              > > [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called
                                              THE FACE OF
                                              > > GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying:
                                              [Quoting]
                                              > > "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the
                                              light of
                                              > > God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes
                                              could not look
                                              > > upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean
                                              of Love
                                              > > and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return
                                              in time."
                                              > > (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)
                                              > >
                                              > > Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in
                                              the House
                                              > > of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens.
                                              Ye cannot
                                              > > go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with
                                              my divine
                                              > > self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in
                                              the divine
                                              > > cause!"
                                              > >
                                              > > Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the
                                              Master, has
                                              > > Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting
                                              snippet]:
                                              > >
                                              > > "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in
                                              a
                                              > > mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
                                              > > attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
                                              > > "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
                                              after
                                              > > this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul
                                              reaches
                                              > > the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or
                                              the SUGMAD,
                                              > > the supreme LORD of all that exists."
                                              > >
                                              > > http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html
                                              > >
                                              > > Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the
                                              description
                                              > > slightly:
                                              > >
                                              > > "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the
                                              Sat Nam in
                                              > > a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in
                                              all Sat
                                              > > Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the
                                              three
                                              > > remaining known planes.
                                              > >
                                              > > "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha,
                                              and
                                              > > after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam
                                              Purusha, or
                                              > > lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region
                                              of the
                                              > > nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first
                                              you know
                                              > > about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the
                                              Divine.
                                              > >
                                              > > "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."
                                              > >
                                              > > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                              > >
                                              > > Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is
                                              illustrated (by
                                              > > Paul Twitchell) slightly different.
                                              > >
                                              > > "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam
                                              Lok.
                                              > > Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the
                                              end of its
                                              > > journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the
                                              supreme
                                              > > lord of all that exists."
                                              > >
                                              > > http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html
                                              > >
                                              > > The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok,
                                              Alak Lok,
                                              > > Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with
                                              Ocean of
                                              > > Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip
                                              mention of
                                              > > Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.
                                              > >
                                              > > In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master,
                                              Introduction to
                                              > > Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes
                                              similarly, and
                                              > > in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain
                                              sections from
                                              > > The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:
                                              > >
                                              > > "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit
                                              is
                                              > > expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal,
                                              Nirala,
                                              > > Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
                                              > > Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country
                                              > >
                                              > > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                              > >
                                              > > "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many
                                              words, such
                                              > > as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala,
                                              Anami, Agam,
                                              > > Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar,
                                              Parameshwar,
                                              > > Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters
                                              > >
                                              > > http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html
                                              > >
                                              > > Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent
                                              from the
                                              > > Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR
                                              vs.
                                              > > Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian
                                              Johnson's book,
                                              > > The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The
                                              Far
                                              > > Country, by at least three decades!
                                              > >
                                              > > Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word,
                                              trademarked
                                              > > it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is
                                              somehow more
                                              > > than a paraphrase.
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