Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: "The Dark Side of ECKankar"

Expand Messages
  • prometheus_973
    Hello and welcome to the group, First, I don t believe in demonic possession. This link was put up because it s another perspective of Eckankar. Take it with a
    Message 1 of 24 , Feb 11, 2011
    • 0 Attachment
      Hello and welcome to the group,

      First, I don't believe in demonic possession.
      This link was put up because it's another
      perspective of Eckankar. Take it with a grain
      of salt. But, the article does bring up some
      interesting topics and perspectives.

      For one thing it mentions that Darwin Gross
      was Klemp's (our) Master for ten years and
      yet his name is/was forbidden to speak. Plus,
      Klemp never mentioned Gross' death, although,
      he was an ECK Master, passed Harry the Rod,
      and was the 972nd (2nd) LEM, thus, making
      HK the 973rd (3rd) LEM.

      Anyway, why pick and choose this one article?
      How about the other Messages and dialogue?
      Did you read the FILES or look at the other LINKS?

      When you've looked at a few these other sources
      of information perhaps you can pose some questions
      pertaining to what we've written or commented upon?

      BTW-Mahanta means "missionary head." It was
      an obscure word that Twit found and decided
      to use for his newly created title.

      I didn't read the entire article of "The Dark Side
      of Eckankar" because much of it, IMO, is some
      sort of a fanatical exaggeration. Eckankar is
      merely a fraud and another religious scam for
      weak minded individuals and needs no "demonizing."
      The Truth is Klemp's real enemy, but who can
      disprove religious B.S. when people desperately
      need to believe. Everyone needs hope, but religions
      abuse and distort for profit and power.

      What do you think of that Negative Atom/Battery
      excuse as to why females can't become the LEM?
      Isn't this another silly excuse to keep women in
      their place? Sure! And, yet, look at how stupid this
      ekplanation is... but it's accepted. What else is a
      lie? Actually, everything!

      Prometheus

      Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
      >
      > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who are
      > searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
      > findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
      > thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar. I am not here to
      > defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues. We are all
      > affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we have allot to
      > bring to the table.
      >  
      > I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
      > called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
      > site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because I'd
      > raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
      > well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
      > complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
      > thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely objective.
      > For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
      > paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
      >  
      > I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
      > within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on the
      > facts. I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
      > the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
      > belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking. Do
      > you?
    • etznab@aol.com
      You were referring to: The DARK SIDE of ECKANKAR by Ruth and Noah Samuelson. I believe it s necessary to mention that. Along with a link.
      Message 2 of 24 , Feb 12, 2011
      • 0 Attachment
        You were referring to: The DARK SIDE of ECKANKAR by Ruth and Noah
        Samuelson. I believe it's necessary to mention that. Along with a link.

        http://www.scribd.com/doc/8967961/The-DARK-SIDE-of-ECKANKAR-by-Ruth-and-Noah-Samuelson

        Evidently, this was not a paper written by members of this group. And I
        doubt they are / were ever members of Eckankar.

        This literature by the Samuelson's was mentioned on a website called
        eckankartruth as early as October 10th, 2008. I don't know when the
        subject might have been discussed here at ESA. You can do a search on
        both sites, however, and maybe find some of the feedback you're looking
        for there.

        If it's something that you are really interested in, maybe check what
        already has been said about it first.

        -----Original Message-----
        From: starshine917 <rblustar@...>
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
        <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:45 am
        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] "The Dark Side of ECKankar"

         
        I recently read "The Dark Side of ECKankar" from your web site.
        Needless to say I was shocked because I am currently an ECKist. I'm
        interested to know why the information presented was concluded as it
        was in representation of something so dark, and fear based. These are
        pretty serious allegations.

        I'd like for you to reach out to me via email because I'm interested in
        further investigation but only if that is acceptable to you. I'd like
        to stick to the facts and evidence.
      • etznab@aol.com
        A lot of religious dogma consists of legends, myths and fables. IMO. Any fables included in the Eckankar dogma prior to the current leadership could be hard to
        Message 3 of 24 , Feb 12, 2011
        • 0 Attachment
          A lot of religious dogma consists of legends,
          myths and fables. IMO.

          Any fables included in the Eckankar dogma
          prior to the current leadership could be hard
          to extract from official dogma. IMO. Granted
          they would be well known via books & talks
          over the years. And they could be believed -
          even literally - by hundreds, or thousands of
          people.

          Here is something the current leader said in
          the early 1980's after becoming the L.E.M.

          "Paul [Paul Twitchell] encouraged people to
          read The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad and make their
          own study. He never said to take the words as
          holy, as the last word. You take the words and
          check out the teachings from within. You ask:
          Does this work for me or doesn't it? You have
          to know. [....]"

          http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/writings.html#ideal

          This was around the time where Harold Klemp
          started talking about Death of an Ideal.

          If a person turns to the introduction section for
          The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, Vol. 1, they can read
          what Paul Twitchell said, compare it with what
          Harold Klemp said, and judge for theirself.

          IMO, fables abound in the Eckankar writings.
          Even in the Shariyat. The challenge comes if
          a person wants to know fact from fiction. The
          creator, author necessary to determine where
          it came from.

          Paul Twitchell was already deceased by the
          time I ever heard of Eckankar. And after him
          Darwin Gross was sent packing (iow). The
          wife of them both is where? I don't know. So
          the people who originally crafted the legends,
          myth, fables, etc., into "Eckankar" writings
          (and those who knew about the crafting) are
          not easy to come by, if you ask me. Neither
          are the original manuscripts and early books
          by Paul Twitchell & Eckankar.

          This is what is necessary, though, for a true
          record of fabrications (IMO). And even after
          the eye-witnesses, or those in the know are
          summoned, things would depend on whether
          they told the truth about what they know!

          Will it ever happen? Will religions (including
          "Eckankar") admit where the fictional parts
          of their teachings came from? Separating
          fact from fiction (with clarity), for the benefit
          of all members who desire the truth? Will we
          ever see the old original manuscripts?

          What happens when the "creators" - and no
          matter who they are - What happens when
          some of the material was borrowed from an-
          other source? Another who borrowed it from
          another before them? And on and on? with
          each writer / religion changing the story at
          will? How does locate the truth in that case?
          Via imagination? :) :) :)

          So not all of the stories are traceable to orig-
          inal sources. IMO. However, many of them
          are. Especially considering a young vs. old
          religion.

          Add to this all of the writers adding more
          "fabulous" material to the history of religion,
          the spin-off groups, etc. etc. and it becomes
          a real miasma.






          -----Original Message-----
          From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
          <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:27 am
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: "The Dark Side of ECKankar"

           
          Hello and welcome to the group,

          First, I don't believe in demonic possession.
          This link was put up because it's another
          perspective of Eckankar. Take it with a grain
          of salt. But, the article does bring up some
          interesting topics and perspectives.

          For one thing it mentions that Darwin Gross
          was Klemp's (our) Master for ten years and
          yet his name is/was forbidden to speak. Plus,
          Klemp never mentioned Gross' death, although,
          he was an ECK Master, passed Harry the Rod,
          and was the 972nd (2nd) LEM, thus, making
          HK the 973rd (3rd) LEM.

          Anyway, why pick and choose this one article?
          How about the other Messages and dialogue?
          Did you read the FILES or look at the other LINKS?

          When you've looked at a few these other sources
          of information perhaps you can pose some questions
          pertaining to what we've written or commented upon?

          BTW-Mahanta means "missionary head." It was
          an obscure word that Twit found and decided
          to use for his newly created title.

          I didn't read the entire article of "The Dark Side
          of Eckankar" because much of it, IMO, is some
          sort of a fanatical exaggeration. Eckankar is
          merely a fraud and another religious scam for
          weak minded individuals and needs no "demonizing."
          The Truth is Klemp's real enemy, but who can
          disprove religious B.S. when people desperately
          need to believe. Everyone needs hope, but religions
          abuse and distort for profit and power.

          What do you think of that Negative Atom/Battery
          excuse as to why females can't become the LEM?
          Isn't this another silly excuse to keep women in
          their place? Sure! And, yet, look at how stupid this
          ekplanation is... but it's accepted. What else is a
          lie? Actually, everything!

          Prometheus

          Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
          >
          > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those
          of you who are
          > searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for
          sharing your
          > findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the
          "light" of critical
          > thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar. I am
          not here to
          > defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues. We are
          all
          > affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
          have allot to
          > bring to the table.
          >  
          > I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique
          used in this paper
          > called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links"
          in this web
          > site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of
          challenge because I'd
          > raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this
          paper as
          > well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be
          painted with
          > complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of
          critical
          > thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being
          completely objective.
          > For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack
          ECKankar in this
          > paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they
          originated.
          >  
          > I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure
          is overdo
          > within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is
          based on the
          > facts. I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I
          don't think
          > the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within
          one religious
          > belief system and exchange them for another in the name of
          critical thinking. Do
          > you?
        • prometheus_973
          Hello Etznab and All, The problem with what Klemp said early on about interpreting the Shariyat for yourself, on a Soul level I suppose, is that this changed
          Message 4 of 24 , Feb 12, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            Hello Etznab and All,
            The problem with what Klemp said
            early on about interpreting the Shariyat
            for yourself, on a Soul level I suppose,
            is that this changed over the years.
            It doesn't matter if you pick and choose
            what works for you because that's not
            how it's done anymore. These are "Holy
            Books" and one can't rewrite or reinterpret
            what an ECK Master wrote unless you
            are an ECK Master... Catch-22! Klemp,
            today, has to approve, in writing
            or in a talk, what anyone can believe
            or say officially. Everything, now, is
            regulated with Guidelines including
            EWS topics.

            ECKists can't share their dreams if that
            dream would contradict EK Dogma or
            (seemingly) challenge HK's authority
            or his opinions etc. Look at what happened
            to Graham. He had a dream where a
            Silent One allowed him to hold the Rod
            of ECK Power. This infuriated Klemp and
            Graham was demoted to a 1st Initiate
            and Ford was disciplined for bringing
            this matter to Klemp's attention in the
            first place. However, Klemp has always
            had a temper and been a poor sport
            and has found it difficult to let go of
            anger. This is why HK never forgave
            Darwin and didn't mention his death.
            Even to this day Klemp can't deal with
            his anger and tends to hold onto grudges.

            What's really amusing is that Klemp took
            the bait in regards to Graham and over-
            reacted as Ford surmised he would. If
            Klemp had just ignored it or said that
            Graham was mistaken with what had
            happened or that the "Rod" was a mock
            up etc. or was a symbol of something else
            blah blah blah then that would have been
            the end of it. Plus, Graham was a bit out-
            of-balance to begin with so no harm no foul.
            But, that's not how it played out because
            Klemp is a Spiritual fraud and conman much
            like his Christian counterparts are of course.

            Prometheus

            etznab wrote:

            A lot of religious dogma consists of legends,
            myths and fables. IMO.

            Any fables included in the Eckankar dogma
            prior to the current leadership could be hard
            to extract from official dogma. IMO. Granted
            they would be well known via books & talks
            over the years. And they could be believed -
            even literally - by hundreds, or thousands of
            people.

            Here is something the current leader said in
            the early 1980's after becoming the L.E.M.

            "Paul [Paul Twitchell] encouraged people to
            read The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad and make their
            own study. He never said to take the words as
            holy, as the last word. You take the words and
            check out the teachings from within. You ask:
            Does this work for me or doesn't it? You have
            to know. [....]"

            http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/writings.html#ideal

            This was around the time where Harold Klemp
            started talking about Death of an Ideal.

            If a person turns to the introduction section for
            The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, Vol. 1, they can read
            what Paul Twitchell said, compare it with what
            Harold Klemp said, and judge for theirself.

            IMO, fables abound in the Eckankar writings.
            Even in the Shariyat. The challenge comes if
            a person wants to know fact from fiction. The
            creator, author necessary to determine where
            it came from.

            Paul Twitchell was already deceased by the
            time I ever heard of Eckankar. And after him
            Darwin Gross was sent packing (iow). The
            wife of them both is where? I don't know. So
            the people who originally crafted the legends,
            myth, fables, etc., into "Eckankar" writings
            (and those who knew about the crafting) are
            not easy to come by, if you ask me. Neither
            are the original manuscripts and early books
            by Paul Twitchell & Eckankar.

            This is what is necessary, though, for a true
            record of fabrications (IMO). And even after
            the eye-witnesses, or those in the know are
            summoned, things would depend on whether
            they told the truth about what they know!

            Will it ever happen? Will religions (including
            "Eckankar") admit where the fictional parts
            of their teachings came from? Separating
            fact from fiction (with clarity), for the benefit
            of all members who desire the truth? Will we
            ever see the old original manuscripts?

            What happens when the "creators" - and no
            matter who they are - What happens when
            some of the material was borrowed from an-
            other source? Another who borrowed it from
            another before them? And on and on? with
            each writer / religion changing the story at
            will? How does locate the truth in that case?
            Via imagination? :) :) :)

            So not all of the stories are traceable to orig-
            inal sources. IMO. However, many of them
            are. Especially considering a young vs. old
            religion.

            Add to this all of the writers adding more
            "fabulous" material to the history of religion,
            the spin-off groups, etc. etc. and it becomes
            a real miasma.






            prometheus wrote:
            Hello and welcome to the group,

            First, I don't believe in demonic possession.
            This link was put up because it's another
            perspective of Eckankar. Take it with a grain
            of salt. But, the article does bring up some
            interesting topics and perspectives.

            For one thing it mentions that Darwin Gross
            was Klemp's (our) Master for ten years and
            yet his name is/was forbidden to speak. Plus,
            Klemp never mentioned Gross' death, although,
            he was an ECK Master, passed Harry the Rod,
            and was the 972nd (2nd) LEM, thus, making
            HK the 973rd (3rd) LEM.

            Anyway, why pick and choose this one article?
            How about the other Messages and dialogue?
            Did you read the FILES or look at the other LINKS?

            When you've looked at a few these other sources
            of information perhaps you can pose some questions
            pertaining to what we've written or commented upon?

            BTW-Mahanta means "missionary head." It was
            an obscure word that Twit found and decided
            to use for his newly created title.

            I didn't read the entire article of "The Dark Side
            of Eckankar" because much of it, IMO, is some
            sort of a fanatical exaggeration. Eckankar is
            merely a fraud and another religious scam for
            weak minded individuals and needs no "demonizing."
            The Truth is Klemp's real enemy, but who can
            disprove religious B.S. when people desperately
            need to believe. Everyone needs hope, but religions
            abuse and distort for profit and power.

            What do you think of that Negative Atom/Battery
            excuse as to why females can't become the LEM?
            Isn't this another silly excuse to keep women in
            their place? Sure! And, yet, look at how stupid this
            ekplanation is... but it's accepted. What else is a
            lie? Actually, everything!

            Prometheus

            Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
            >
            > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those
            of you who are
            > searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for
            sharing your
            > findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the
            "light"Â of critical
            > thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar. I am
            not here to
            > defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues. We are
            all
            > affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
            have allot to
            > bring to the table.
            > Â
            > I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique
            used in this paper
            > called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links"
            in this web
            > site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of
            challenge because I'd
            > raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this
            paper as
            > well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be
            painted with
            > complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of
            critical
            > thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being
            completely objective.
            > For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack
            ECKankar in this
            > paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they
            originated.
            > Â
            > I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure
            is overdo
            > within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is
            based on the
            > facts. I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I
            don't think
            > the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within
            one religious
            > belief system and exchange them for another in the name of
            critical thinking. Do
            > you?
          • dianastanley43
            Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from personal
            Message 5 of 24 , Feb 13, 2011
            • 0 Attachment
              Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time. If it is hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew and was their experience I also say.
              Diana Stanley

              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Rosemarie Bucci <rblustar@...> wrote:
              >
              > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who are
              > searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
              > findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
              > thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar. I am not here to
              > defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues. We are all
              > affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we have allot to
              > bring to the table.
              >  
              > I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
              > called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
              > site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because I'd
              > raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
              > well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
              > complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
              > thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely objective.
              > For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
              > paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
              >  
              > I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
              > within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on the
              > facts. I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
              > the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
              > belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking. Do
              > you?
              >
              >
              >
              > ____________________________________________________________________________________
              > Looking for earth-friendly autos?
              > Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.
              > http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
              >
            • prometheus_973
              Hello Rosemarie, There will be no email debate or ekplanation of this article. I don t agree with it entirely, but there are real facts and evidence,
              Message 6 of 24 , Feb 13, 2011
              • 0 Attachment
                Hello Rosemarie,
                There will be no email debate or ekplanation
                of this article. I don't agree with it entirely,
                but there are real facts and evidence, elsewhere,
                that shows Eckankar is "dark and fear based."

                After all, Klemp was/is the real "Black Magician"
                versus Darwin Gross.

                Read Chapter 7 of "Soul Travelers of the Far
                Country," if you can find the book, and you
                will see Klemp's ego speaking and how that
                he repeatedly states that he worked in a Sound
                Proof Dark Room at the ESC. And, it was Klemp's
                idea for Darwin to meet with him, in private,
                in the Sound Proof Dark Room (in the photo
                department) where Klemp worked daily. Darwin
                "hesitated" [pg.409 Autobiography of a Modern
                Prophet] to meet there when Klemp suggested
                that they should talk in private in the Dark Room
                that was also Sound Proofed (by the last building
                owner). Thus, it was symbolic that the ECK (Light
                & Sound) was Not present during the discussion
                of Klemp's transition to become the 973rd LEM.
                It's absence, the ECK, was due to Klemp and Not
                to Darwin. Thus, Klemp was looking into the mirror
                when he, later, referred to Darwin as being the
                Black Magician. And, not being able to forgive
                Darwin for his imperfections, even after all of
                these years, is more proof that Klemp is holding
                onto Negativity and this is evidence that he is
                of the KAL and is a Liar, Trickster, Deceiver,
                and, thus, a Black Magician!

                Most of the "fear" inside Eckankar comes via
                the RESA structure. ECKists fear that they can
                be Black Listed on Initiations by giving their
                real opinions and impressions of Klemp's
                articles and of the strict Guidelines they are
                to follow without question. They can't criticize
                (even constructively) because this is seen as
                negativity and that is of the KAL. Except, they
                forget, the KAL is the ruler of the Lower Planes
                (assigned by Sugmad) and Eckankar is a 1st
                Physical Plane religion/organization and is
                based upon, written, Mental Plane books,
                talks, rules & laws, guidelines, discourses,
                etc.

                Plus, "questions" are also discouraged as well.
                ECKists are to take it to the "inner" if they have
                too many questions, but the Catch-22 is that
                their "inner (Soul) answers" have to comply with
                the Lower Plane outer limitations of the EK Dogma,
                the scrutiny of the RESA, and of the EK Guidelines.
                Basically, an ECKist (Soul) cannot have an "official"
                opinion or a "valid" spiritual experience (that can
                be shared in public), unless, Klemp gives his verbal
                or written approval. As I pointed out before, look
                at what happened to Graham. He had a dream where
                a Silent One showed up and Graham HUed to verify
                that this was a Silent One and not an Astral entity
                playing tricks upon him. The Silent One passed the
                HU test and told Graham his name and then allowed
                Graham to hold the Rod of ECK Power to see how it
                felt. However, Klemp had a problem with this "dream"
                and felt threatened by this new Third Initiate. LOL!
                Thus, Klemp demoted Graham to a 1st Initiate for
                sharing his "dream" with others! Graham wasn't trying
                to take over or to challenge Klemp... it was just
                a dream! It wasn't his fault for having such a dream
                was it? What if other ECKists had a similar dream?
                Now, they all know Not to share it, don't they, for fear
                of being demoted!


                Prometheus

                starshine wrote:

                I recently read "The Dark Side of ECKankar" from your web site. Needless to say
                I was shocked because I am currently an ECKist. I'm interested to know why the
                information presented was concluded as it was in representation of something so
                dark, and fear based. These are pretty serious allegations.

                I'd like for you to reach out to me via email because I'm interested in further
                investigation but only if that is acceptable to you. I'd like to stick to the
                facts and evidence.
              • Rosemarie Bucci
                Hi Diana, I ve had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this path. I have read David Lane s book and Ford Johnson s book as
                Message 7 of 24 , Feb 14, 2011
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi Diana,
                  I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth is truth and will always be the truth.
                   
                  I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember, we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
                   
                  I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must be brave and remain in truth.
                  Thank you for getting back to me.
                  Rosemarie


                  TV dinner still cooling?
                  Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.
                • prometheus_973
                  Hello Rosemarie, I am a seeker of Truth as well. And yes, this article on The Dark Side of Eckankar is inaccurate, but there is a dark side to Eckankar and
                  Message 8 of 24 , Feb 15, 2011
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hello Rosemarie,
                    I am a seeker of Truth as well.
                    And yes, this article on "The Dark
                    Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
                    there is a dark side to Eckankar and
                    there is also fear.

                    I find it interesting that you've
                    read (and I assume have contemplated
                    upon) David Lane's research as well as
                    Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
                    and have, still, remained an ECKist.

                    What happened to your "critical thinking?"
                    Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
                    you agree with some of it but not all of
                    it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
                    I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
                    isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
                    what they believe than any other religion
                    they've found. Is that the case with you?

                    I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
                    book, threw it away (because of the bad
                    vibes), and then placed themselves upon
                    pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
                    and talk Eckists through their doubts and
                    concerns.

                    You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
                    not all truth is the same. That's why there
                    are so many churches. People are social
                    animals and tend to seek out others with
                    similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
                    to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
                    to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
                    and a test for Soul.

                    I also got the impression that you don't
                    participate much within the RESA structure.
                    Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
                    Do you know that you have to watch what
                    you say? You've observed and learned that
                    correct? You do care about being promoted
                    to that next initiation right?

                    Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
                    take on the subjects that we've been discussing
                    here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
                    lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
                    for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
                    Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
                    when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
                    "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
                    detectors just for his talk?

                    You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues. 
                    We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
                    at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."

                    BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
                    read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?

                    Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
                    the table.

                    Prometheus

                    rosemarie wrote:
                    Hi Diana,

                    I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth is truth and will always be the truth.

                    I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember, we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.

                    I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must be brave and remain in truth.

                    Thank you for getting back to me.
                    Rosemarie


                    dianastanley wrote:

                    Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time. If it is hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew and was their experience I also say.

                    Diana Stanley

                    Rosemarie Bucci wrote:

                    I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who are
                    searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
                    findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
                    thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.

                    I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues. 
                    We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
                    have allot to bring to the table.
                     
                    I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
                    called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
                    site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because I'd
                    raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
                    well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
                    complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
                    thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely objective.
                    For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
                    paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
                     
                    I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
                    within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on the
                    facts.

                    I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
                    the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
                    belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking.
                    Do you?
                  • dianastanley43
                    Rosemarie you are quite right. I started with Eckankar and ended up studing quantum Physics What I finally came to the conclusion of was if you were sitting in
                    Message 9 of 24 , Feb 17, 2011
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Rosemarie you are quite right. I started with Eckankar and ended up studing quantum Physics What I finally came to the conclusion of was if you were sitting in you living room you didn't need a spiritual path to find your living room. It has not been an easy journy as I was loath to give up the idea of the mystical and magical and I traveled many paths in the 30 yrs after leaving Eckankar. One day I read a quote that changed my belief system of years. "God did'nt create the universe God became the universe. It's interesting that when the time is right I might understand something that a few yrs earlier would not have ment anything.
                      Diana

                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Rosemarie Bucci <rblustar@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi Diana,
                      > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this
                      > path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been
                      > to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that
                      > honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth
                      > is truth and will always be the truth.
                      >
                      >  
                      > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we
                      > follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching
                      > which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember,
                      > we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to
                      > bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
                      >
                      >  
                      > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts
                      > sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must
                      > be brave and remain in truth.
                      > Thank you for gettingback to me.
                      > Rosemarie
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ____________________________________________________________________________________
                      > It's here! Your new message!
                      > Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar.
                      > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/
                      >
                    • Avonblue
                      Diana and All, I came to eckankar back in the 70 s because I felt religion was an abomination and the lure of free exploration of our spiritual self was truly
                      Message 10 of 24 , Feb 18, 2011
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Diana and All,

                        I came to eckankar back in the 70's because I felt religion was an abomination and the lure of free exploration of our spiritual self was truly revolutionary. Eckankar eventually failed to be the magical mystical carpet ride it was purported to be but instead a rehash and reinvention of eastern and western mumbo jumbo recreated by a charlatan. I too have explored quantum physics and especially the advances in neuroscience over the past several years and have come to the belief that "spirituality" and for the that matter "god" is nothing more than misunderstood and undiscovered as of yet science.

                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "dianastanley43" <dianastanley43@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Rosemarie you are quite right. I started with Eckankar and ended up studing quantum Physics What I finally came to the conclusion of was if you were sitting in you living room you didn't need a spiritual path to find your living room. It has not been an easy journy as I was loath to give up the idea of the mystical and magical and I traveled many paths in the 30 yrs after leaving Eckankar. One day I read a quote that changed my belief system of years. "God did'nt create the universe God became the universe. It's interesting that when the time is right I might understand something that a few yrs earlier would not have ment anything.
                        > Diana
                        >
                        > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Rosemarie Bucci <rblustar@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Hi Diana,
                        > > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this
                        > > path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been
                        > > to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that
                        > > honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth
                        > > is truth and will always be the truth.
                        > >
                        > >  
                        > > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we
                        > > follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching
                        > > which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember,
                        > > we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to
                        > > bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
                        > >
                        > >  
                        > > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts
                        > > sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must
                        > > be brave and remain in truth.
                        > > Thank you for gettingback to me.
                        > > Rosemarie
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ____________________________________________________________________________________
                        > > It's here! Your new message!
                        > > Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar.
                        > > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/
                        > >
                        >
                      • prometheus_973
                        Hello Avonblue and All, I was first introduced to the quantum physics/mechanics/ field theory scam via Maharishi of TM fame. Adam Dreamhealer and many other
                        Message 11 of 24 , Feb 21, 2011
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hello Avonblue and All,
                          I was first introduced to the
                          "quantum physics/mechanics/
                          field theory" scam via Maharishi
                          of TM fame. Adam Dreamhealer
                          and many other scammers have
                          used and abused this theory
                          to explain how their brand of
                          whatever works. I'm surprised
                          that Klemp hasn't used this hook
                          in order to combine science and
                          spirituality.

                          It is quite interesting how Klemp
                          gradually became "the" God/Mahanta.

                          And, even though he has stated,
                          "don't worship me" he has Eckists
                          stare at his picture and chant HU.

                          Plus, he has them dream of him
                          and beseech him with requests,
                          questions, help, protection, and
                          for healing. So, HK instructs Eckists
                          to pray to him (the Mahanta), but
                          says he's not to be worshipped.
                          How's that work? Of course he's
                          worshipped!

                          And, who or what is "worshipped" by
                          Eckists at ECK Worship Services (EWS)?
                          Is it the ECK? Klemp claims to be that
                          too, or is it the Mahanta or both?
                          So, on the "outer" Klemp is the leader
                          (LEM) of Eckankar and on the "inner"
                          he claims to be the ECK and the Mahanta.
                          But wouldn't he, also, be the ECK and
                          the Mahanta on the "outer" as well?
                          This is where/how Klemp tricks ECKists
                          into worshipping him. He's everything
                          and claims to be levels higher than the
                          God that other religions worship. Yet,
                          just like Twitchell fooled people, Klemp
                          does the same. Telling ECKists not to
                          worship him is a disclaimer so that he
                          can avoid responsibility.

                          It's really laughable that older ECKists
                          turned their backs on the religion of
                          their parents because "God" never answered
                          their prayers, etc. Now, they've substituted
                          Klemp for Jesus or Moses or who and what
                          ever. How stupid is that!

                          Strange that Sugmad isn't worshipped
                          at these EWS events and neither is God.
                          God is discussed some, but a real Eckist
                          knows that "God" is code for the Mahanta,
                          or the KAL, it depends. So, who/what is
                          worshipped? The ECK? That's Klemp too!
                          Klemp, in one way or the other is always
                          the main focus! Really, who does the Mahanta
                          look like? And, yet, do Eckists really think
                          about what they are really doing when they
                          worship, pray HU, contemplate upon, dream,
                          and beseech "the" Mahanta/ECK (Klemp)
                          for help? Apparently not!

                          Prometheus


                          Avonblue wrote:
                          Diana and All,

                          I came to eckankar back in the 70's because I felt religion was an abomination
                          and the lure of free exploration of our spiritual self was truly revolutionary.
                          Eckankar eventually failed to be the magical mystical carpet ride it was
                          purported to be but instead a rehash and reinvention of eastern and western
                          mumbo jumbo recreated by a charlatan. I too have explored quantum physics and
                          especially the advances in neuroscience over the past several years and have
                          come to the belief that "spirituality" and for the that matter "god" is nothing
                          more than misunderstood and undiscovered as of yet science.

                          dianastanley43"
                          dianastanley43@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Rosemarie you are quite right. I started with Eckankar and ended up studing
                          quantum Physics What I finally came to the conclusion of was if you were sitting
                          in you living room you didn't need a spiritual path to find your living room. It
                          has not been an easy journy as I was loath to give up the idea of the mystical
                          and magical and I traveled many paths in the 30 yrs after leaving Eckankar. One
                          day I read a quote that changed my belief system of years. "God did'nt create
                          the universe God became the universe. It's interesting that when the time is
                          right I might understand something that a few yrs earlier would not have ment
                          anything.
                          > Diana
                          >
                          Rosemarie Bucci <rblustar wrote:

                          Hi Diana,
                          I've had lots of experiences before
                          my journey into eckankar and while on
                          this path. I have read David Lane's book
                          and Ford Johnson's book as well.

                          I've been to eck satsangs, eck book
                          discussions and eck seminars also.
                          I agree that honesty is essential the
                          name of GOD on all levels.

                          I also understand that truth is truth
                          and will always be the truth.

                          I think it's important to remain open
                          and honest regardless of what path we
                          follow and to be there for one another
                          as much as we can. We are all searching
                          which is wonderful.

                          Therefore, we are not wrong in doing
                          so and let's remember, we all have each
                          other to try to put all this in perspective.
                          We have so much to bring to one another
                          on our many different levels of knowledge
                          and experience.

                          I know we'll get through this some day
                          and be stronger for it even if it hurts
                          sometimes. If we are to stand before
                          GOD and try to journey back to GOD,
                          we must be brave and remain in truth.



                          Prometheus: But there is no Truth
                          in Eckankar nor in any religion. It's
                          desperation, fear, lies, myth (stories),
                          imagination, pretend, and delusion!



                          Thank you for getting back to me.
                          Rosemarie
                        • dianastanley43
                          ... Diana
                          Message 12 of 24 , Feb 21, 2011
                          • 0 Attachment
                            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                            > Paul commissioned me to do a sculpture of him so the Eckist would have something to focus on,I quess it was supposed to compete with jesus on the cross, any way he died befor it was finished and the stature fell apart befor I could make a mold of it. I thought Paul destroyed when he died as a lot of hi's at the time felt that. Acually it was bad craftsmanship on my part. I have to say it was pretty neat, he was sitting on a stool looking holy.
                            Diana
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Hello Avonblue and All,
                            > I was first introduced to the
                            > "quantum physics/mechanics/
                            > field theory" scam via Maharishi
                            > of TM fame. Adam Dreamhealer
                            > and many other scammers have
                            > used and abused this theory
                            > to explain how their brand of
                            > whatever works. I'm surprised
                            > that Klemp hasn't used this hook
                            > in order to combine science and
                            > spirituality.
                            >
                            > It is quite interesting how Klemp
                            > gradually became "the" God/Mahanta.
                            >
                            > And, even though he has stated,
                            > "don't worship me" he has Eckists
                            > stare at his picture and chant HU.
                            >
                            > Plus, he has them dream of him
                            > and beseech him with requests,
                            > questions, help, protection, and
                            > for healing. So, HK instructs Eckists
                            > to pray to him (the Mahanta), but
                            > says he's not to be worshipped.
                            > How's that work? Of course he's
                            > worshipped!
                            >
                            > And, who or what is "worshipped" by
                            > Eckists at ECK Worship Services (EWS)?
                            > Is it the ECK? Klemp claims to be that
                            > too, or is it the Mahanta or both?
                            > So, on the "outer" Klemp is the leader
                            > (LEM) of Eckankar and on the "inner"
                            > he claims to be the ECK and the Mahanta.
                            > But wouldn't he, also, be the ECK and
                            > the Mahanta on the "outer" as well?
                            > This is where/how Klemp tricks ECKists
                            > into worshipping him. He's everything
                            > and claims to be levels higher than the
                            > God that other religions worship. Yet,
                            > just like Twitchell fooled people, Klemp
                            > does the same. Telling ECKists not to
                            > worship him is a disclaimer so that he
                            > can avoid responsibility.
                            >
                            > It's really laughable that older ECKists
                            > turned their backs on the religion of
                            > their parents because "God" never answered
                            > their prayers, etc. Now, they've substituted
                            > Klemp for Jesus or Moses or who and what
                            > ever. How stupid is that!
                            >
                            > Strange that Sugmad isn't worshipped
                            > at these EWS events and neither is God.
                            > God is discussed some, but a real Eckist
                            > knows that "God" is code for the Mahanta,
                            > or the KAL, it depends. So, who/what is
                            > worshipped? The ECK? That's Klemp too!
                            > Klemp, in one way or the other is always
                            > the main focus! Really, who does the Mahanta
                            > look like? And, yet, do Eckists really think
                            > about what they are really doing when they
                            > worship, pray HU, contemplate upon, dream,
                            > and beseech "the" Mahanta/ECK (Klemp)
                            > for help? Apparently not!
                            >
                            > Prometheus
                            >
                            >
                            > Avonblue wrote:
                            > Diana and All,
                            >
                            > I came to eckankar back in the 70's because I felt religion was an abomination
                            > and the lure of free exploration of our spiritual self was truly revolutionary.
                            > Eckankar eventually failed to be the magical mystical carpet ride it was
                            > purported to be but instead a rehash and reinvention of eastern and western
                            > mumbo jumbo recreated by a charlatan. I too have explored quantum physics and
                            > especially the advances in neuroscience over the past several years and have
                            > come to the belief that "spirituality" and for the that matter "god" is nothing
                            > more than misunderstood and undiscovered as of yet science.
                            >
                            > dianastanley43"
                            > dianastanley43@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Rosemarie you are quite right. I started with Eckankar and ended up studing
                            > quantum Physics What I finally came to the conclusion of was if you were sitting
                            > in you living room you didn't need a spiritual path to find your living room. It
                            > has not been an easy journy as I was loath to give up the idea of the mystical
                            > and magical and I traveled many paths in the 30 yrs after leaving Eckankar. One
                            > day I read a quote that changed my belief system of years. "God did'nt create
                            > the universe God became the universe. It's interesting that when the time is
                            > right I might understand something that a few yrs earlier would not have ment
                            > anything.
                            > > Diana
                            > >
                            > Rosemarie Bucci <rblustar wrote:
                            >
                            > Hi Diana,
                            > I've had lots of experiences before
                            > my journey into eckankar and while on
                            > this path. I have read David Lane's book
                            > and Ford Johnson's book as well.
                            >
                            > I've been to eck satsangs, eck book
                            > discussions and eck seminars also.
                            > I agree that honesty is essential the
                            > name of GOD on all levels.
                            >
                            > I also understand that truth is truth
                            > and will always be the truth.
                            >
                            > I think it's important to remain open
                            > and honest regardless of what path we
                            > follow and to be there for one another
                            > as much as we can. We are all searching
                            > which is wonderful.
                            >
                            > Therefore, we are not wrong in doing
                            > so and let's remember, we all have each
                            > other to try to put all this in perspective.
                            > We have so much to bring to one another
                            > on our many different levels of knowledge
                            > and experience.
                            >
                            > I know we'll get through this some day
                            > and be stronger for it even if it hurts
                            > sometimes. If we are to stand before
                            > GOD and try to journey back to GOD,
                            > we must be brave and remain in truth.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Prometheus: But there is no Truth
                            > in Eckankar nor in any religion. It's
                            > desperation, fear, lies, myth (stories),
                            > imagination, pretend, and delusion!
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Thank you for getting back to me.
                            > Rosemarie
                            >
                          • starshine917
                            Hello prometheus_973: Remember me? Wow, it s so weird that I d be writing to you now….exactly, one year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I
                            Message 13 of 24 , Sep 4, 2011
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hello prometheus_973:
                              Remember me? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writing to you now….exactly, one year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I didn't plan it like this but somehow it just worked out this way.

                              I recently left Eckankar. And, you were right….I read David Lane's paper as well as Ford Johnson's "Confessions of a God Seeker" And, for some reason at that time I remained in the group tying to focus on the so-called positive side of the Eckankar, the hypnotic rederick that goes nowhere while ignoring the facts. I then started to take a good look at Harold…looked into his "dark" eyes and listened to his figure of monotone speak and I realized it was very hypnotic, and at the same time very inviting. I wondered who or what was inside of those dark eyes….And they seem to always come as "the light". Yes, the "angel of light".

                              I was in a satsang at that time and I found it disturbing more and more that his same picture of himself, which by the way never changes, the one and only picture that has to be present at all Eckankar meetings was never questioned by it's members. All the books we studied were written by him and only him !!! And how some members were "higher" than others depending on their "initiation" number, even if these people knew absolutely nothing except what was written in the books of Eckankar. Some of these people seemed to have anger issues too which didn't seem to fit the spiritual portrait of a saint they painted. I started to feel uncomfortable around these people cause they seemed more and more to me like mind-controlled slaves. And, they too could see that I was thinking and starting to pull away because I no longer looked to them without question, with blind authority.

                              So, it wasn't a good mix to say the very least. I finally had it out with one of the members and I realized that I already left…In my heart, I choose to follow truth and I also realized that that in Eckankar, I was being deceived. And I realized that I couldn't have it both ways. I had to pick my convictions and go with them. After all, why would I go against my own self, and what was in my heart ?

                              In Eckankar it is taught to open and follow your heart but yet, if you dare open your mind and begin to ask challenging questions, you're in trouble because these people think the Mahanta in Eckankar is above all else and should never be questioned, and your heart should be open to "him", the self appointed master, Harold Klemp. Even if the members of Eckankar are not honest with themselves enough to admit it consciously. On a subconscious level, they know better !!!

                              The shame of it all is that this deception is done in the name of an unconditional open heart to give love, which it is true, a part of GOD's flow but where's the truth ? What happened to that part of GOD ??? I guess it got lost in the sea of love…


                              Hello prometheus_973;
                              Remember me ? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writ

                              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hello Rosemarie,
                              > I am a seeker of Truth as well.
                              > And yes, this article on "The Dark
                              > Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
                              > there is a dark side to Eckankar and
                              > there is also fear.
                              >
                              > I find it interesting that you've
                              > read (and I assume have contemplated
                              > upon) David Lane's research as well as
                              > Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
                              > and have, still, remained an ECKist.
                              >
                              > What happened to your "critical thinking?"
                              > Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
                              > you agree with some of it but not all of
                              > it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
                              > I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
                              > isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
                              > what they believe than any other religion
                              > they've found. Is that the case with you?
                              >
                              > I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
                              > book, threw it away (because of the bad
                              > vibes), and then placed themselves upon
                              > pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
                              > and talk Eckists through their doubts and
                              > concerns.
                              >
                              > You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
                              > not all truth is the same. That's why there
                              > are so many churches. People are social
                              > animals and tend to seek out others with
                              > similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
                              > to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
                              > to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
                              > and a test for Soul.
                              >
                              > I also got the impression that you don't
                              > participate much within the RESA structure.
                              > Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
                              > Do you know that you have to watch what
                              > you say? You've observed and learned that
                              > correct? You do care about being promoted
                              > to that next initiation right?
                              >
                              > Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
                              > take on the subjects that we've been discussing
                              > here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
                              > lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
                              > for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
                              > Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
                              > when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
                              > "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
                              > detectors just for his talk?
                              >
                              > You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues. 
                              > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
                              > at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."
                              >
                              > BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
                              > read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?
                              >
                              > Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
                              > the table.
                              >
                              > Prometheus
                              >
                              > rosemarie wrote:
                              > Hi Diana,
                              >
                              > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth is truth and will always be the truth.
                              >
                              > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember, we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
                              >
                              > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must be brave and remain in truth.
                              >
                              > Thank you for getting back to me.
                              > Rosemarie
                              >
                              >
                              > dianastanley wrote:
                              >
                              > Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time. If it is hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew and was their experience I also say.
                              >
                              > Diana Stanley
                              >
                              > Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
                              >
                              > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who are
                              > searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
                              > findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
                              > thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.
                              >
                              > I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues. 
                              > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
                              > have allot to bring to the table.
                              >  
                              > I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
                              > called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
                              > site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because I'd
                              > raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
                              > well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
                              > complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
                              > thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely objective.
                              > For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
                              > paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
                              >  
                              > I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
                              > within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on the
                              > facts.
                              >
                              > I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
                              > the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
                              > belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking.
                              > Do you?
                              >
                            • prometheus_973
                              Hello All, Just thought I d share some additional comments to what Starshine wrote. starshine917 wrote: Hello prometheus_973: Remember me? Wow, it s so weird
                              Message 14 of 24 , Sep 11, 2011
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Hello All,
                                Just thought I'd share some
                                additional comments to what
                                Starshine wrote.

                                starshine917 wrote:
                                Hello prometheus_973:
                                Remember me? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writing to you now….exactly, one
                                year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I didn't plan it like
                                this but somehow it just worked out this way.


                                ME: Yes, it takes awhile for the
                                realization to occur and sink in
                                even after one decides to look
                                for and analyze it via critical
                                thinking while giving HK's/PT's
                                redundant words a litmus test
                                for truthiness.


                                I recently left Eckankar. And, you were right….I read David Lane's paper as well
                                as Ford Johnson's "Confessions of a God Seeker" And, for some reason at that
                                time I remained in the group tying to focus on the so-called positive side of
                                the Eckankar, the hypnotic rederick that goes nowhere while ignoring the facts.
                                I then started to take a good look at Harold…looked into his "dark" eyes and
                                listened to his figure of monotone speak and I realized it was very hypnotic,
                                and at the same time very inviting. I wondered who or what was inside of those
                                dark eyes….And they seem to always come as "the light". Yes, the "angel of
                                light".


                                ME: Klemp is no angel of light! He spreads
                                darkness and delusion while denying Eckists
                                their true nature as Soul. He gives (hope),
                                promises (higher plane initiations), and then
                                takes it all away (hope of ever getting beyond
                                the 7th initiation while in this lifetime, unless,
                                one pretends or imagines they are higher
                                via vanity and frustration).


                                I was in a satsang at that time and I found it disturbing more and more that his
                                same picture of himself, which by the way never changes, the one and only
                                picture that has to be present at all Eckankar meetings was never questioned by
                                it's members. All the books we studied were written by him and only him !!! And
                                how some members were "higher" than others depending on their "initiation"
                                number, even if these people knew absolutely nothing except what was written in
                                the books of Eckankar. Some of these people seemed to have anger issues too
                                which didn't seem to fit the spiritual portrait of a saint they painted. I
                                started to feel uncomfortable around these people cause they seemed more and
                                more to me like mind-controlled slaves. And, they too could see that I was
                                thinking and starting to pull away because I no longer looked to them without
                                question, with blind authority.


                                ME: Yes, that more youthful looking
                                Official Picture of Klemp's is a vain act,
                                but is never questioned because to do
                                so would get one Black Listed on initiations.
                                Those longtime Eckists who are part
                                of the RESA Hierarchy know what I'm
                                saying. Some H.I.s are fearful/cautious
                                of the spies that report to the RESA and
                                only share certain things (anti-Guideline
                                comments, etc.) around those H.I.s they
                                can trust.


                                BTW- There are some books, that Klemp
                                has approved of, written by non-Eck
                                authors that Eckists can read. However,
                                the Eckist must always focus upon the
                                ECK or Mahanta when reading these
                                books and, thus, give up free, unfettered,
                                thought. Some of these books are
                                recommended to those in leadership
                                positions and are business oriented.



                                So, it wasn't a good mix to say the very least. I finally had it out with one of
                                the members and I realized that I already left…In my heart, I choose to follow
                                truth and I also realized that that in Eckankar, I was being deceived. And I
                                realized that I couldn't have it both ways. I had to pick my convictions and go
                                with them. After all, why would I go against my own self, and what was in my
                                heart?


                                ME: It's the easy way to place an
                                authority figure on a shelf higher
                                than yourself. Less thinking and
                                effort is involved when blind trust
                                takes over. It's lazy but that's what
                                people do. Look at how we allow
                                the politicians to say and do as
                                they please without taking responsibility.
                                With Klemp, it's always the chela's
                                fault and never his own! He slowed-
                                down initiations in 1985, but doesn't
                                need to explain why these haven't
                                sped up because he answers to
                                nobody else, except, Sugmad right?


                                In Eckankar it is taught to open and follow your heart but yet, if you dare open
                                your mind and begin to ask challenging questions, you're in trouble because
                                these people think the Mahanta in Eckankar is above all else and should never be
                                questioned, and your heart should be open to "him", the self appointed master,
                                Harold Klemp. Even if the members of Eckankar are not honest with themselves
                                enough to admit it consciously. On a subconscious level, they know better !!!

                                ME: That following your heart
                                thing is more about the Astral
                                Heart Chakra... which is lower
                                than the Third Eye or Tisra Til!
                                Why didn't Klemp at least use
                                the (Astral) Crown Chakra when
                                having Eckists HU? After 30 years
                                and HK still has Eckists HUing
                                and focusing upon the 6th,
                                Third Eye, Astral Chakra versus
                                the 7th Crown Chakra!


                                The shame of it all is that this deception is done in the name of an
                                unconditional open heart to give love, which it is true, a part of GOD's flow
                                but where's the truth ? What happened to that part of GOD ??? I guess it got
                                lost in the sea of love…


                                ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                                "common language" but it's not
                                quite true. ECK is not a common
                                word and neither is Mahanta.
                                And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                                to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                                others worship or think he is speaking
                                about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                                use the word GOD when it's not
                                who or what they are referring
                                to. It's like comparing apples
                                to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                                start out, and are trained, to be
                                deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                                fact alone makes Eckankar look
                                very cult like. But, why the lie?
                                The "common language" excuse
                                doesn't hold water but Eckists
                                can't question this underhanded
                                practice or else they can have
                                their position taken away and
                                be Black Listed and shunned.

                                Prometheus



                                Hello prometheus_973;
                                Remember me ? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writ


                                <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Hello Rosemarie,
                                > I am a seeker of Truth as well.
                                > And yes, this article on "The Dark
                                > Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
                                > there is a dark side to Eckankar and
                                > there is also fear.
                                >
                                > I find it interesting that you've
                                > read (and I assume have contemplated
                                > upon) David Lane's research as well as
                                > Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
                                > and have, still, remained an ECKist.
                                >
                                > What happened to your "critical thinking?"
                                > Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
                                > you agree with some of it but not all of
                                > it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
                                > I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
                                > isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
                                > what they believe than any other religion
                                > they've found. Is that the case with you?
                                >
                                > I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
                                > book, threw it away (because of the bad
                                > vibes), and then placed themselves upon
                                > pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
                                > and talk Eckists through their doubts and
                                > concerns.
                                >
                                > You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
                                > not all truth is the same. That's why there
                                > are so many churches. People are social
                                > animals and tend to seek out others with
                                > similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
                                > to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
                                > to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
                                > and a test for Soul.
                                >
                                > I also got the impression that you don't
                                > participate much within the RESA structure.
                                > Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
                                > Do you know that you have to watch what
                                > you say? You've observed and learned that
                                > correct? You do care about being promoted
                                > to that next initiation right?
                                >
                                > Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
                                > take on the subjects that we've been discussing
                                > here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
                                > lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
                                > for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
                                > Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
                                > when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
                                > "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
                                > detectors just for his talk?
                                >
                                > You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                                > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
                                > at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."
                                >
                                > BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
                                > read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?
                                >
                                > Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
                                > the table.
                                >
                                > Prometheus
                                >
                                > rosemarie wrote:
                                > Hi Diana,
                                >
                                > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this
                                path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been
                                to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that
                                honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth
                                is truth and will always be the truth.
                                >
                                > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we
                                follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching
                                which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember,
                                we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to
                                bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
                                >
                                > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts
                                sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must
                                be brave and remain in truth.
                                >
                                > Thank you for getting back to me.
                                > Rosemarie
                                >
                                >
                                > dianastanley wrote:
                                >
                                > Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any
                                direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from
                                personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time. If it is
                                hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew and was their
                                experience I also say.
                                >
                                > Diana Stanley
                                >
                                > Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
                                >
                                > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who
                                are searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
                                findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
                                thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.
                                >
                                I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                                We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
                                have allot to bring to the table.
                                >
                                I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
                                called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
                                site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because
                                I'd raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
                                well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
                                complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
                                thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely
                                objective.

                                For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
                                paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
                                >
                                I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
                                within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on
                                the facts.
                                >
                                I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
                                the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
                                belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking.
                                Do you?
                              • postekcon
                                Re ... ME: Klemp likes to say he uses common language but it s not quite true. ECK is not a common word and neither is Mahanta. And, the God (Sugmad) he
                                Message 15 of 24 , Sep 11, 2011
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Re
                                  >>>
                                  ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                                  "common language" but it's not
                                  quite true. ECK is not a common
                                  word and neither is Mahanta.
                                  And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                                  to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                                  others worship or think he is speaking
                                  about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                                  use the word GOD when it's not
                                  who or what they are referring
                                  to. It's like comparing apples
                                  to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                                  start out, and are trained, to be
                                  deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                                  fact alone makes Eckankar look
                                  very cult like. But, why the lie?
                                  The "common language" excuse
                                  doesn't hold water but Eckists
                                  can't question this underhanded
                                  practice or else they can have
                                  their position taken away and
                                  be Black Listed and shunned.
                                  >>>


                                  For the past ten years, I have observed this pattern.

                                  Hard working HIs (50-70yrs plus) busy putting on Intro Talks, occasionally enrolling a new recruit to ekult.

                                  However, within a year or two, the new recruit leaves ekult as nothing makes sense! Of course, the HIs, unable to look at either themselves or ekult, always blame the new recruit with comments such as lack of unfoldment etc!

                                  For the new recruit, the reason nothing makes sense, I've observed, is thus. The HIs bring the new recruit into Paul Twitchell/Darwin Gross ekult; the ekult into which they themselved were enrolled. Now this version of ekult promised it had the tools for self/god realization in this lifetime etc. However, several MW (Mystic World) issues later, the new recruit comes to understand these 'good people' lied to them!
                                  -Postekcon


                                  In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hello All,
                                  > Just thought I'd share some
                                  > additional comments to what
                                  > Starshine wrote.
                                  >
                                  > starshine917 wrote:
                                  > Hello prometheus_973:
                                  > Remember me? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writing to you now….exactly, one
                                  > year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I didn't plan it like
                                  > this but somehow it just worked out this way.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ME: Yes, it takes awhile for the
                                  > realization to occur and sink in
                                  > even after one decides to look
                                  > for and analyze it via critical
                                  > thinking while giving HK's/PT's
                                  > redundant words a litmus test
                                  > for truthiness.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I recently left Eckankar. And, you were right….I read David Lane's paper as well
                                  > as Ford Johnson's "Confessions of a God Seeker" And, for some reason at that
                                  > time I remained in the group tying to focus on the so-called positive side of
                                  > the Eckankar, the hypnotic rederick that goes nowhere while ignoring the facts.
                                  > I then started to take a good look at Harold…looked into his "dark" eyes and
                                  > listened to his figure of monotone speak and I realized it was very hypnotic,
                                  > and at the same time very inviting. I wondered who or what was inside of those
                                  > dark eyes….And they seem to always come as "the light". Yes, the "angel of
                                  > light".
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ME: Klemp is no angel of light! He spreads
                                  > darkness and delusion while denying Eckists
                                  > their true nature as Soul. He gives (hope),
                                  > promises (higher plane initiations), and then
                                  > takes it all away (hope of ever getting beyond
                                  > the 7th initiation while in this lifetime, unless,
                                  > one pretends or imagines they are higher
                                  > via vanity and frustration).
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I was in a satsang at that time and I found it disturbing more and more that his
                                  > same picture of himself, which by the way never changes, the one and only
                                  > picture that has to be present at all Eckankar meetings was never questioned by
                                  > it's members. All the books we studied were written by him and only him !!! And
                                  > how some members were "higher" than others depending on their "initiation"
                                  > number, even if these people knew absolutely nothing except what was written in
                                  > the books of Eckankar. Some of these people seemed to have anger issues too
                                  > which didn't seem to fit the spiritual portrait of a saint they painted. I
                                  > started to feel uncomfortable around these people cause they seemed more and
                                  > more to me like mind-controlled slaves. And, they too could see that I was
                                  > thinking and starting to pull away because I no longer looked to them without
                                  > question, with blind authority.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ME: Yes, that more youthful looking
                                  > Official Picture of Klemp's is a vain act,
                                  > but is never questioned because to do
                                  > so would get one Black Listed on initiations.
                                  > Those longtime Eckists who are part
                                  > of the RESA Hierarchy know what I'm
                                  > saying. Some H.I.s are fearful/cautious
                                  > of the spies that report to the RESA and
                                  > only share certain things (anti-Guideline
                                  > comments, etc.) around those H.I.s they
                                  > can trust.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > BTW- There are some books, that Klemp
                                  > has approved of, written by non-Eck
                                  > authors that Eckists can read. However,
                                  > the Eckist must always focus upon the
                                  > ECK or Mahanta when reading these
                                  > books and, thus, give up free, unfettered,
                                  > thought. Some of these books are
                                  > recommended to those in leadership
                                  > positions and are business oriented.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > So, it wasn't a good mix to say the very least. I finally had it out with one of
                                  > the members and I realized that I already left…In my heart, I choose to follow
                                  > truth and I also realized that that in Eckankar, I was being deceived. And I
                                  > realized that I couldn't have it both ways. I had to pick my convictions and go
                                  > with them. After all, why would I go against my own self, and what was in my
                                  > heart?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ME: It's the easy way to place an
                                  > authority figure on a shelf higher
                                  > than yourself. Less thinking and
                                  > effort is involved when blind trust
                                  > takes over. It's lazy but that's what
                                  > people do. Look at how we allow
                                  > the politicians to say and do as
                                  > they please without taking responsibility.
                                  > With Klemp, it's always the chela's
                                  > fault and never his own! He slowed-
                                  > down initiations in 1985, but doesn't
                                  > need to explain why these haven't
                                  > sped up because he answers to
                                  > nobody else, except, Sugmad right?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > In Eckankar it is taught to open and follow your heart but yet, if you dare open
                                  > your mind and begin to ask challenging questions, you're in trouble because
                                  > these people think the Mahanta in Eckankar is above all else and should never be
                                  > questioned, and your heart should be open to "him", the self appointed master,
                                  > Harold Klemp. Even if the members of Eckankar are not honest with themselves
                                  > enough to admit it consciously. On a subconscious level, they know better !!!
                                  >
                                  > ME: That following your heart
                                  > thing is more about the Astral
                                  > Heart Chakra... which is lower
                                  > than the Third Eye or Tisra Til!
                                  > Why didn't Klemp at least use
                                  > the (Astral) Crown Chakra when
                                  > having Eckists HU? After 30 years
                                  > and HK still has Eckists HUing
                                  > and focusing upon the 6th,
                                  > Third Eye, Astral Chakra versus
                                  > the 7th Crown Chakra!
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > The shame of it all is that this deception is done in the name of an
                                  > unconditional open heart to give love, which it is true, a part of GOD's flow
                                  > but where's the truth ? What happened to that part of GOD ??? I guess it got
                                  > lost in the sea of love…
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                                  > "common language" but it's not
                                  > quite true. ECK is not a common
                                  > word and neither is Mahanta.
                                  > And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                                  > to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                                  > others worship or think he is speaking
                                  > about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                                  > use the word GOD when it's not
                                  > who or what they are referring
                                  > to. It's like comparing apples
                                  > to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                                  > start out, and are trained, to be
                                  > deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                                  > fact alone makes Eckankar look
                                  > very cult like. But, why the lie?
                                  > The "common language" excuse
                                  > doesn't hold water but Eckists
                                  > can't question this underhanded
                                  > practice or else they can have
                                  > their position taken away and
                                  > be Black Listed and shunned.
                                  >
                                  > Prometheus
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Hello prometheus_973;
                                  > Remember me ? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writ
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Hello Rosemarie,
                                  > > I am a seeker of Truth as well.
                                  > > And yes, this article on "The Dark
                                  > > Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
                                  > > there is a dark side to Eckankar and
                                  > > there is also fear.
                                  > >
                                  > > I find it interesting that you've
                                  > > read (and I assume have contemplated
                                  > > upon) David Lane's research as well as
                                  > > Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
                                  > > and have, still, remained an ECKist.
                                  > >
                                  > > What happened to your "critical thinking?"
                                  > > Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
                                  > > you agree with some of it but not all of
                                  > > it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
                                  > > I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
                                  > > isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
                                  > > what they believe than any other religion
                                  > > they've found. Is that the case with you?
                                  > >
                                  > > I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
                                  > > book, threw it away (because of the bad
                                  > > vibes), and then placed themselves upon
                                  > > pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
                                  > > and talk Eckists through their doubts and
                                  > > concerns.
                                  > >
                                  > > You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
                                  > > not all truth is the same. That's why there
                                  > > are so many churches. People are social
                                  > > animals and tend to seek out others with
                                  > > similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
                                  > > to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
                                  > > to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
                                  > > and a test for Soul.
                                  > >
                                  > > I also got the impression that you don't
                                  > > participate much within the RESA structure.
                                  > > Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
                                  > > Do you know that you have to watch what
                                  > > you say? You've observed and learned that
                                  > > correct? You do care about being promoted
                                  > > to that next initiation right?
                                  > >
                                  > > Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
                                  > > take on the subjects that we've been discussing
                                  > > here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
                                  > > lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
                                  > > for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
                                  > > Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
                                  > > when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
                                  > > "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
                                  > > detectors just for his talk?
                                  > >
                                  > > You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                                  > > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
                                  > > at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."
                                  > >
                                  > > BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
                                  > > read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?
                                  > >
                                  > > Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
                                  > > the table.
                                  > >
                                  > > Prometheus
                                  > >
                                  > > rosemarie wrote:
                                  > > Hi Diana,
                                  > >
                                  > > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this
                                  > path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been
                                  > to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that
                                  > honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth
                                  > is truth and will always be the truth.
                                  > >
                                  > > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we
                                  > follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching
                                  > which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember,
                                  > we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to
                                  > bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
                                  > >
                                  > > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts
                                  > sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must
                                  > be brave and remain in truth.
                                  > >
                                  > > Thank you for getting back to me.
                                  > > Rosemarie
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > dianastanley wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any
                                  > direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from
                                  > personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time. If it is
                                  > hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew and was their
                                  > experience I also say.
                                  > >
                                  > > Diana Stanley
                                  > >
                                  > > Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who
                                  > are searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
                                  > findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
                                  > thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.
                                  > >
                                  > I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                                  > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
                                  > have allot to bring to the table.
                                  > >
                                  > I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
                                  > called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
                                  > site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because
                                  > I'd raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
                                  > well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
                                  > complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
                                  > thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely
                                  > objective.
                                  >
                                  > For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
                                  > paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
                                  > >
                                  > I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
                                  > within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on
                                  > the facts.
                                  > >
                                  > I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
                                  > the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
                                  > belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking.
                                  > Do you?
                                  >
                                • prometheus_973
                                  Hello Postekcon and All, Yes, it was always a conundrum trying to recruit new members via spreading the word i.e. manure. However, we had structured public
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Sep 14, 2011
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hello Postekcon and All,
                                    Yes, it was always a conundrum
                                    trying to recruit new members
                                    via "spreading the word" i.e.
                                    manure. However, we had
                                    structured public workshops
                                    and/or book discussions with
                                    Guidelines spelling out what
                                    to do and how to do it.

                                    Some RESA areas did experimental
                                    programs (special projects),
                                    and if successful, the ESC
                                    tweaked them to be used
                                    elsewhere. It was all quite
                                    time consuming and frustrating.
                                    Local areas and the H.I.s were
                                    always judged on the numbers
                                    of newbies showing up for
                                    these events. Most people
                                    were repeats and were into
                                    metaphysics or were the friends,
                                    coworkers or relatives of Eckists.

                                    I recall that one local area
                                    of a neighboring state was
                                    having a lot of success via
                                    large turnouts of newbies.
                                    They probably had a couple
                                    of hundred newbies in one
                                    year and that was practically
                                    unheard of in Eckankar. Several
                                    of these H.I.s were very proud
                                    of the "high counts" they turned
                                    in to the ESC. However, out
                                    of all of those newbies only
                                    about ten joined Eckankar
                                    and only, maybe, one or two
                                    remained after a year. These,
                                    I doubt, remained for the
                                    long haul. Let's face it, it's
                                    a dead end religion where
                                    one pretends, i.e. imagines
                                    or visualizes, their desires
                                    for "spiritual" progress and
                                    "knowingness" or "realization"
                                    of varying degrees. The initiation
                                    game is the main, underlying,
                                    theme. The problem, for Eckists,
                                    is that dangling carrot when
                                    initiations have been "slowed-
                                    down" for 25 years and the
                                    highest most can go is the 7th!

                                    Those 7th initiates who had
                                    hit the glass ceiling 20 or more
                                    years ago have rationalized
                                    it all away. They only stay in
                                    EK because they have some
                                    prestige, a lot of Eck friends,
                                    and have paid their dues with
                                    a lot of vahana and satsang
                                    work over the years. Plus, they've
                                    been taught to "imagine" and
                                    visualize, therefore, all they
                                    need to do is pretend they are
                                    8ths (on the inner). Most pretend
                                    they are higher than 8ths. After
                                    all, Darwin skipped or sped up
                                    initiations even for Klemp. So,
                                    if it was valid, then, why not
                                    today? Actually, just about all
                                    Eckists pretent they are "higher"
                                    than the number printed on
                                    their Membership Cards.

                                    Anyway, the reason why
                                    the EK Youth effort has
                                    gained some momentum
                                    over the years is because
                                    it's easier to brainwash a
                                    controlled subject. However,
                                    that doesn't always work,
                                    either, when these young
                                    Eckists see their parents
                                    act so nutty and non-Eck
                                    like. Plus, reclusive Klemp
                                    puts a lot of pressure upon
                                    them to do the vahana/
                                    missionary thing when
                                    it's tough enough getting
                                    through school and those
                                    teen years. Klemp doesn't
                                    have any empathy. He was
                                    in a Lutheran all boys high
                                    school and never learned
                                    about dating until he got
                                    out of the Air Force (1968)
                                    when he was 26 years old!

                                    One has to wonder why
                                    Klemp doesn't do his fair
                                    share of public vahana work.
                                    Why doesn't he have a radio
                                    show or do and say something
                                    in real time? The EK Seminars
                                    don't count. That's for maybe
                                    a hundred newbies who aren't
                                    all that "new" and for his brain-
                                    washed followers.

                                    In theory, Klemp's real "spiritual"
                                    mission is to help his followers
                                    achieve God Realization. However,
                                    what Initiation level is the indicator
                                    that this has been accomplished?

                                    According to Book 2, CH. 12 of
                                    the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad (Eckankar's
                                    Holy Book) their God, Sugmad,
                                    resides on the 10th Plane, however,
                                    Eckists must have the 11th Initiation
                                    for "entrance into the Sugmad world,
                                    which is the highest world of God,
                                    if any, may enter."

                                    Of course, that's not quite true either
                                    since there're the 12th, 13th, and 14th
                                    initiations after this one. This, then,
                                    is where one (supposedly) enters into
                                    Soul's true home called The Ocean of
                                    love and Mercy. However, one can see
                                    why EK Higher initiates (5-7) become
                                    internally frustrated since, except for
                                    a handful of people, they will never
                                    even see the 8th initiation (in this
                                    lifetime). That's the Catch/Con that
                                    Twitchell invented and Klemp inherited.
                                    Hope via promises for a better afterlife
                                    while imagining day-to-day miracles
                                    and dreaming about one's pre-programmed
                                    expectations. It's how any and every
                                    religion works.

                                    Prometheus




                                    "postekcon" wrote:
                                    Re
                                    >>>
                                    ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                                    "common language" but it's not
                                    quite true. ECK is not a common
                                    word and neither is Mahanta.
                                    And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                                    to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                                    others worship or think he is speaking
                                    about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                                    use the word GOD when it's not
                                    who or what they are referring
                                    to. It's like comparing apples
                                    to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                                    start out, and are trained, to be
                                    deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                                    fact alone makes Eckankar look
                                    very cult like. But, why the lie?
                                    The "common language" excuse
                                    doesn't hold water but Eckists
                                    can't question this underhanded
                                    practice or else they can have
                                    their position taken away and
                                    can be Black Listed and shunned.
                                    >>>


                                    For the past ten years, I have observed this pattern.

                                    Hard working HIs (50-70yrs plus) busy putting on Intro Talks, occasionally
                                    enrolling a new recruit to ekult.

                                    However, within a year or two, the new recruit leaves ekult as nothing makes
                                    sense! Of course, the HIs, unable to look at either themselves or ekult, always
                                    blame the new recruit with comments such as lack of unfoldment etc!

                                    For the new recruit, the reason nothing makes sense, I've observed, is thus. The
                                    HIs bring the new recruit into Paul Twitchell/Darwin Gross ekult; the ekult into
                                    which they themselved were enrolled. Now this version of ekult promised it had
                                    the tools for self/god realization in this lifetime etc. However, several MW
                                    (Mystic World) issues later, the new recruit comes to understand these 'good
                                    people' lied to them!
                                    -Postekcon


                                    In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                                    <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hello All,
                                    > Just thought I'd share some
                                    > additional comments to what
                                    > Starshine wrote.
                                    >
                                    > starshine917 wrote:
                                    > Hello prometheus_973:
                                    > Remember me? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writing to you now….exactly, one
                                    > year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I didn't plan it like
                                    > this but somehow it just worked out this way.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ME: Yes, it takes awhile for the
                                    > realization to occur and sink in
                                    > even after one decides to look
                                    > for and analyze it via critical
                                    > thinking while giving HK's/PT's
                                    > redundant words a litmus test
                                    > for truthiness.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I recently left Eckankar. And, you were right….I read David Lane's paper as
                                    well as Ford Johnson's "Confessions of a God Seeker" And, for some reason at
                                    that time I remained in the group tying to focus on the so-called positive side
                                    of the Eckankar, the hypnotic rederick that goes nowhere while ignoring the
                                    facts.

                                    > I then started to take a good look at Harold…looked into his "dark" eyes and
                                    > listened to his figure of monotone speak and I realized it was very hypnotic,
                                    > and at the same time very inviting. I wondered who or what was inside of those
                                    > dark eyes….And they seem to always come as "the light". Yes, the "angel of
                                    > light".
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ME: Klemp is no angel of light! He spreads
                                    > darkness and delusion while denying Eckists
                                    > their true nature as Soul. He gives (hope),
                                    > promises (higher plane initiations), and then
                                    > takes it all away (hope of ever getting beyond
                                    > the 7th initiation while in this lifetime, unless,
                                    > one pretends or imagines they are higher
                                    > via vanity and frustration).
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I was in a satsang at that time and I found it disturbing more and more that
                                    his
                                    > same picture of himself, which by the way never changes, the one and only
                                    > picture that has to be present at all Eckankar meetings was never questioned
                                    by
                                    > it's members. All the books we studied were written by him and only him !!!
                                    And
                                    > how some members were "higher" than others depending on their "initiation"
                                    > number, even if these people knew absolutely nothing except what was written
                                    in
                                    > the books of Eckankar. Some of these people seemed to have anger issues too
                                    > which didn't seem to fit the spiritual portrait of a saint they painted. I
                                    > started to feel uncomfortable around these people cause they seemed more and
                                    > more to me like mind-controlled slaves. And, they too could see that I was
                                    > thinking and starting to pull away because I no longer looked to them without
                                    > question, with blind authority.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ME: Yes, that more youthful looking
                                    > Official Picture of Klemp's is a vain act,
                                    > but is never questioned because to do
                                    > so would get one Black Listed on initiations.
                                    > Those longtime Eckists who are part
                                    > of the RESA Hierarchy know what I'm
                                    > saying. Some H.I.s are fearful/cautious
                                    > of the spies that report to the RESA and
                                    > only share certain things (anti-Guideline
                                    > comments, etc.) around those H.I.s they
                                    > can trust.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > BTW- There are some books, that Klemp
                                    > has approved of, written by non-Eck
                                    > authors that Eckists can read. However,
                                    > the Eckist must always focus upon the
                                    > ECK or Mahanta when reading these
                                    > books and, thus, give up free, unfettered,
                                    > thought. Some of these books are
                                    > recommended to those in leadership
                                    > positions and are business oriented.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > So, it wasn't a good mix to say the very least. I finally had it out with one
                                    of
                                    > the members and I realized that I already left…In my heart, I choose to follow
                                    > truth and I also realized that that in Eckankar, I was being deceived. And I
                                    > realized that I couldn't have it both ways. I had to pick my convictions and
                                    go
                                    > with them. After all, why would I go against my own self, and what was in my
                                    > heart?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ME: It's the easy way to place an
                                    > authority figure on a shelf higher
                                    > than yourself. Less thinking and
                                    > effort is involved when blind trust
                                    > takes over. It's lazy but that's what
                                    > people do. Look at how we allow
                                    > the politicians to say and do as
                                    > they please without taking responsibility.
                                    > With Klemp, it's always the chela's
                                    > fault and never his own! He slowed-
                                    > down initiations in 1985, but doesn't
                                    > need to explain why these haven't
                                    > sped up because he answers to
                                    > nobody else, except, Sugmad right?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > In Eckankar it is taught to open and follow your heart but yet, if you dare
                                    open
                                    > your mind and begin to ask challenging questions, you're in trouble because
                                    > these people think the Mahanta in Eckankar is above all else and should never
                                    be
                                    > questioned, and your heart should be open to "him", the self appointed master,
                                    > Harold Klemp. Even if the members of Eckankar are not honest with themselves
                                    > enough to admit it consciously. On a subconscious level, they know better !!!
                                    >
                                    > ME: That following your heart
                                    > thing is more about the Astral
                                    > Heart Chakra... which is lower
                                    > than the Third Eye or Tisra Til!
                                    > Why didn't Klemp at least use
                                    > the (Astral) Crown Chakra when
                                    > having Eckists HU? After 30 years
                                    > and HK still has Eckists HUing
                                    > and focusing upon the 6th,
                                    > Third Eye, Astral Chakra versus
                                    > the 7th Crown Chakra!
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > The shame of it all is that this deception is done in the name of an
                                    > unconditional open heart to give love, which it is true, a part of GOD's flow
                                    > but where's the truth ? What happened to that part of GOD ??? I guess it got
                                    > lost in the sea of love…
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                                    > "common language" but it's not
                                    > quite true. ECK is not a common
                                    > word and neither is Mahanta.
                                    > And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                                    > to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                                    > others worship or think he is speaking
                                    > about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                                    > use the word GOD when it's not
                                    > who or what they are referring
                                    > to. It's like comparing apples
                                    > to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                                    > start out, and are trained, to be
                                    > deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                                    > fact alone makes Eckankar look
                                    > very cult like. But, why the lie?
                                    > The "common language" excuse
                                    > doesn't hold water but Eckists
                                    > can't question this underhanded
                                    > practice or else they can have
                                    > their position taken away and
                                    > be Black Listed and shunned.
                                    >
                                    > Prometheus
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Hello prometheus_973;
                                    > Remember me ? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writ
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Hello Rosemarie,
                                    > > I am a seeker of Truth as well.
                                    > > And yes, this article on "The Dark
                                    > > Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
                                    > > there is a dark side to Eckankar and
                                    > > there is also fear.
                                    > >
                                    > > I find it interesting that you've
                                    > > read (and I assume have contemplated
                                    > > upon) David Lane's research as well as
                                    > > Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
                                    > > and have, still, remained an ECKist.
                                    > >
                                    > > What happened to your "critical thinking?"
                                    > > Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
                                    > > you agree with some of it but not all of
                                    > > it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
                                    > > I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
                                    > > isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
                                    > > what they believe than any other religion
                                    > > they've found. Is that the case with you?
                                    > >
                                    > > I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
                                    > > book, threw it away (because of the bad
                                    > > vibes), and then placed themselves upon
                                    > > pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
                                    > > and talk Eckists through their doubts and
                                    > > concerns.
                                    > >
                                    > > You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
                                    > > not all truth is the same. That's why there
                                    > > are so many churches. People are social
                                    > > animals and tend to seek out others with
                                    > > similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
                                    > > to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
                                    > > to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
                                    > > and a test for Soul.
                                    > >
                                    > > I also got the impression that you don't
                                    > > participate much within the RESA structure.
                                    > > Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
                                    > > Do you know that you have to watch what
                                    > > you say? You've observed and learned that
                                    > > correct? You do care about being promoted
                                    > > to that next initiation right?
                                    > >
                                    > > Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
                                    > > take on the subjects that we've been discussing
                                    > > here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
                                    > > lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
                                    > > for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
                                    > > Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
                                    > > when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
                                    > > "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
                                    > > detectors just for his talk?
                                    > >
                                    > > You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                                    > > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
                                    > > at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."
                                    > >
                                    > > BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
                                    > > read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?
                                    > >
                                    > > Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
                                    > > the table.
                                    > >
                                    > > Prometheus
                                    > >
                                    > > rosemarie wrote:
                                    > > Hi Diana,
                                    > >
                                    > > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on
                                    this
                                    > path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been
                                    > to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that
                                    > honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that
                                    truth
                                    > is truth and will always be the truth.
                                    > >
                                    > > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we
                                    > follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching
                                    > which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's
                                    remember,
                                    > we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much
                                    to
                                    > bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
                                    > >
                                    > > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it
                                    hurts
                                    > sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we
                                    must
                                    > be brave and remain in truth.
                                    > >
                                    > > Thank you for getting back to me.
                                    > > Rosemarie
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > dianastanley wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any
                                    > direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from
                                    > personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time. If it is
                                    > hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew and was
                                    > their experience I also say.
                                    > >
                                    > > Diana Stanley
                                    > >
                                    > > Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who
                                    > are searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
                                    > findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
                                    > thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.
                                    > >
                                    > I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                                    > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
                                    > have allot to bring to the table.
                                    > >
                                    > I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
                                    > called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
                                    > site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because
                                    > I'd raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
                                    > well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
                                    > complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
                                    > thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely
                                    > objective.
                                    >
                                    > For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
                                    > paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
                                    > >
                                    > I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
                                    > within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on
                                    > the facts.
                                    > >
                                    > I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
                                    > the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
                                    > belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking.
                                    > Do you?
                                    >
                                  • etznab@aol.com
                                    One of Paul Twitchell s first reported journey s with Rebazar Tarzs mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme. Check the index section for Ocean
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Sep 14, 2011
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar Tarzs
                                      mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme. Check the
                                      index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with the Master.

                                      The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless region,
                                      [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called THE FACE OF
                                      GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying: [Quoting
                                      >] "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the light of
                                      God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes could not look
                                      upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean of Love
                                      and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return in time."
                                      (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)

                                      Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in the House
                                      of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens. Ye cannot
                                      go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with my divine
                                      self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in the divine
                                      cause!"

                                      Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the Master, has
                                      Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting snippet]:

                                      "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in a
                                      mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
                                      attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
                                      "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and after
                                      this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul reaches
                                      the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or the SUGMAD,
                                      the supreme LORD of all that exists."

                                      http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html

                                      Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the description
                                      slightly:

                                      "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the Sat Nam in
                                      a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in all Sat
                                      Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the three
                                      remaining known planes.
                                      "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
                                      after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam Purusha, or
                                      lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region of the
                                      nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first you know
                                      about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the Divine.
                                      "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."

                                      http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html

                                      Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is illustrated (by
                                      Paul Twitchell) slightly different.

                                      "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam Lok.
                                      Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the end of its
                                      journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the supreme
                                      lord of all that exists."

                                      http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html

                                      The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok, Alak Lok,
                                      Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with Ocean of
                                      Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip mention of
                                      Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.

                                      In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master, Introduction to
                                      Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes similarly, and
                                      in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain sections from
                                      The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:

                                      "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit is
                                      expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal, Nirala,
                                      Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
                                      Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country

                                      http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html

                                      "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many words, such
                                      as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala, Anami, Agam,
                                      Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar, Parameshwar,
                                      Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters

                                      http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html

                                      Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent from the
                                      Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR vs.
                                      Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian Johnson's book,
                                      The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The Far
                                      Country, by at least three decades!

                                      Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word, trademarked
                                      it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is somehow more
                                      than a paraphrase.











                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                                      <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Wed, Sep 14, 2011 11:17 am
                                      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: "The Dark Side of ECKankar" -
                                      And More!

                                       
                                      Hello Postekcon and All,
                                      Yes, it was always a conundrum
                                      trying to recruit new members
                                      via "spreading the word" i.e.
                                      manure. However, we had
                                      structured public workshops
                                      and/or book discussions with
                                      Guidelines spelling out what
                                      to do and how to do it.

                                      Some RESA areas did experimental
                                      programs (special projects),
                                      and if successful, the ESC
                                      tweaked them to be used
                                      elsewhere. It was all quite
                                      time consuming and frustrating.
                                      Local areas and the H.I.s were
                                      always judged on the numbers
                                      of newbies showing up for
                                      these events. Most people
                                      were repeats and were into
                                      metaphysics or were the friends,
                                      coworkers or relatives of Eckists.

                                      I recall that one local area
                                      of a neighboring state was
                                      having a lot of success via
                                      large turnouts of newbies.
                                      They probably had a couple
                                      of hundred newbies in one
                                      year and that was practically
                                      unheard of in Eckankar. Several
                                      of these H.I.s were very proud
                                      of the "high counts" they turned
                                      in to the ESC. However, out
                                      of all of those newbies only
                                      about ten joined Eckankar
                                      and only, maybe, one or two
                                      remained after a year. These,
                                      I doubt, remained for the
                                      long haul. Let's face it, it's
                                      a dead end religion where
                                      one pretends, i.e. imagines
                                      or visualizes, their desires
                                      for "spiritual" progress and
                                      "knowingness" or "realization"
                                      of varying degrees. The initiation
                                      game is the main, underlying,
                                      theme. The problem, for Eckists,
                                      is that dangling carrot when
                                      initiations have been "slowed-
                                      down" for 25 years and the
                                      highest most can go is the 7th!

                                      Those 7th initiates who had
                                      hit the glass ceiling 20 or more
                                      years ago have rationalized
                                      it all away. They only stay in
                                      EK because they have some
                                      prestige, a lot of Eck friends,
                                      and have paid their dues with
                                      a lot of vahana and satsang
                                      work over the years. Plus, they've
                                      been taught to "imagine" and
                                      visualize, therefore, all they
                                      need to do is pretend they are
                                      8ths (on the inner). Most pretend
                                      they are higher than 8ths. After
                                      all, Darwin skipped or sped up
                                      initiations even for Klemp. So,
                                      if it was valid, then, why not
                                      today? Actually, just about all
                                      Eckists pretent they are "higher"
                                      than the number printed on
                                      their Membership Cards.

                                      Anyway, the reason why
                                      the EK Youth effort has
                                      gained some momentum
                                      over the years is because
                                      it's easier to brainwash a
                                      controlled subject. However,
                                      that doesn't always work,
                                      either, when these young
                                      Eckists see their parents
                                      act so nutty and non-Eck
                                      like. Plus, reclusive Klemp
                                      puts a lot of pressure upon
                                      them to do the vahana/
                                      missionary thing when
                                      it's tough enough getting
                                      through school and those
                                      teen years. Klemp doesn't
                                      have any empathy. He was
                                      in a Lutheran all boys high
                                      school and never learned
                                      about dating until he got
                                      out of the Air Force (1968)
                                      when he was 26 years old!

                                      One has to wonder why
                                      Klemp doesn't do his fair
                                      share of public vahana work.
                                      Why doesn't he have a radio
                                      show or do and say something
                                      in real time? The EK Seminars
                                      don't count. That's for maybe
                                      a hundred newbies who aren't
                                      all that "new" and for his brain-
                                      washed followers.

                                      In theory, Klemp's real "spiritual"
                                      mission is to help his followers
                                      achieve God Realization. However,
                                      what Initiation level is the indicator
                                      that this has been accomplished?

                                      According to Book 2, CH. 12 of
                                      the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad (Eckankar's
                                      Holy Book) their God, Sugmad,
                                      resides on the 10th Plane, however,
                                      Eckists must have the 11th Initiation
                                      for "entrance into the Sugmad world,
                                      which is the highest world of God,
                                      if any, may enter."

                                      Of course, that's not quite true either
                                      since there're the 12th, 13th, and 14th
                                      initiations after this one. This, then,
                                      is where one (supposedly) enters into
                                      Soul's true home called The Ocean of
                                      love and Mercy. However, one can see
                                      why EK Higher initiates (5-7) become
                                      internally frustrated since, except for
                                      a handful of people, they will never
                                      even see the 8th initiation (in this
                                      lifetime). That's the Catch/Con that
                                      Twitchell invented and Klemp inherited.
                                      Hope via promises for a better afterlife
                                      while imagining day-to-day miracles
                                      and dreaming about one's pre-programmed
                                      expectations. It's how any and every
                                      religion works.

                                      Prometheus

                                      "postekcon" wrote:
                                      Re
                                      >>>
                                      ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                                      "common language" but it's not
                                      quite true. ECK is not a common
                                      word and neither is Mahanta.
                                      And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                                      to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                                      others worship or think he is speaking
                                      about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                                      use the word GOD when it's not
                                      who or what they are referring
                                      to. It's like comparing apples
                                      to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                                      start out, and are trained, to be
                                      deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                                      fact alone makes Eckankar look
                                      very cult like. But, why the lie?
                                      The "common language" excuse
                                      doesn't hold water but Eckists
                                      can't question this underhanded
                                      practice or else they can have
                                      their position taken away and
                                      can be Black Listed and shunned.
                                      >>>

                                      For the past ten years, I have observed this pattern.

                                      Hard working HIs (50-70yrs plus) busy putting on Intro Talks,
                                      occasionally
                                      enrolling a new recruit to ekult.

                                      However, within a year or two, the new recruit leaves ekult as nothing
                                      makes
                                      sense! Of course, the HIs, unable to look at either themselves or
                                      ekult, always
                                      blame the new recruit with comments such as lack of unfoldment etc!

                                      For the new recruit, the reason nothing makes sense, I've observed, is
                                      thus. The
                                      HIs bring the new recruit into Paul Twitchell/Darwin Gross ekult; the
                                      ekult into
                                      which they themselved were enrolled. Now this version of ekult promised
                                      it had
                                      the tools for self/god realization in this lifetime etc. However,
                                      several MW
                                      (Mystic World) issues later, the new recruit comes to understand these
                                      'good
                                      people' lied to them!
                                      -Postekcon

                                      In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                                      <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Hello All,
                                      > Just thought I'd share some
                                      > additional comments to what
                                      > Starshine wrote.
                                      >
                                      > starshine917 wrote:
                                      > Hello prometheus_973:
                                      > Remember me? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writing to you
                                      now….exactly, one
                                      > year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I didn't
                                      plan it like
                                      > this but somehow it just worked out this way.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ME: Yes, it takes awhile for the
                                      > realization to occur and sink in
                                      > even after one decides to look
                                      > for and analyze it via critical
                                      > thinking while giving HK's/PT's
                                      > redundant words a litmus test
                                      > for truthiness.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > I recently left Eckankar. And, you were right….I read David Lane's
                                      paper as
                                      well as Ford Johnson's "Confessions of a God Seeker" And, for some
                                      reason at
                                      that time I remained in the group tying to focus on the so-called
                                      positive side
                                      of the Eckankar, the hypnotic rederick that goes nowhere while ignoring
                                      the
                                      facts.

                                      > I then started to take a good look at Harold…looked into his
                                      "dark" eyes and
                                      > listened to his figure of monotone speak and I realized it was
                                      very hypnotic,
                                      > and at the same time very inviting. I wondered who or what was
                                      inside of those
                                      > dark eyes….And they seem to always come as "the light". Yes, the
                                      "angel of
                                      > light".
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ME: Klemp is no angel of light! He spreads
                                      > darkness and delusion while denying Eckists
                                      > their true nature as Soul. He gives (hope),
                                      > promises (higher plane initiations), and then
                                      > takes it all away (hope of ever getting beyond
                                      > the 7th initiation while in this lifetime, unless,
                                      > one pretends or imagines they are higher
                                      > via vanity and frustration).
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > I was in a satsang at that time and I found it disturbing more and
                                      more that
                                      his
                                      > same picture of himself, which by the way never changes, the one
                                      and only
                                      > picture that has to be present at all Eckankar meetings was never
                                      questioned
                                      by
                                      > it's members. All the books we studied were written by him and
                                      only him !!!
                                      And
                                      > how some members were "higher" than others depending on their
                                      "initiation"
                                      > number, even if these people knew absolutely nothing except what
                                      was written
                                      in
                                      > the books of Eckankar. Some of these people seemed to have anger
                                      issues too
                                      > which didn't seem to fit the spiritual portrait of a saint they
                                      painted. I
                                      > started to feel uncomfortable around these people cause they
                                      seemed more and
                                      > more to me like mind-controlled slaves. And, they too could see
                                      that I was
                                      > thinking and starting to pull away because I no longer looked to
                                      them without
                                      > question, with blind authority.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ME: Yes, that more youthful looking
                                      > Official Picture of Klemp's is a vain act,
                                      > but is never questioned because to do
                                      > so would get one Black Listed on initiations.
                                      > Those longtime Eckists who are part
                                      > of the RESA Hierarchy know what I'm
                                      > saying. Some H.I.s are fearful/cautious
                                      > of the spies that report to the RESA and
                                      > only share certain things (anti-Guideline
                                      > comments, etc.) around those H.I.s they
                                      > can trust.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > BTW- There are some books, that Klemp
                                      > has approved of, written by non-Eck
                                      > authors that Eckists can read. However,
                                      > the Eckist must always focus upon the
                                      > ECK or Mahanta when reading these
                                      > books and, thus, give up free, unfettered,
                                      > thought. Some of these books are
                                      > recommended to those in leadership
                                      > positions and are business oriented.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > So, it wasn't a good mix to say the very least. I finally had it
                                      out with one
                                      of
                                      > the members and I realized that I already left…In my heart, I
                                      choose to follow
                                      > truth and I also realized that that in Eckankar, I was being
                                      deceived. And I
                                      > realized that I couldn't have it both ways. I had to pick my
                                      convictions and
                                      go
                                      > with them. After all, why would I go against my own self, and what
                                      was in my
                                      > heart?
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ME: It's the easy way to place an
                                      > authority figure on a shelf higher
                                      > than yourself. Less thinking and
                                      > effort is involved when blind trust
                                      > takes over. It's lazy but that's what
                                      > people do. Look at how we allow
                                      > the politicians to say and do as
                                      > they please without taking responsibility.
                                      > With Klemp, it's always the chela's
                                      > fault and never his own! He slowed-
                                      > down initiations in 1985, but doesn't
                                      > need to explain why these haven't
                                      > sped up because he answers to
                                      > nobody else, except, Sugmad right?
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > In Eckankar it is taught to open and follow your heart but yet, if
                                      you dare
                                      open
                                      > your mind and begin to ask challenging questions, you're in
                                      trouble because
                                      > these people think the Mahanta in Eckankar is above all else and
                                      should never
                                      be
                                      > questioned, and your heart should be open to "him", the self
                                      appointed master,
                                      > Harold Klemp. Even if the members of Eckankar are not honest with
                                      themselves
                                      > enough to admit it consciously. On a subconscious level, they know
                                      better !!!
                                      >
                                      > ME: That following your heart
                                      > thing is more about the Astral
                                      > Heart Chakra... which is lower
                                      > than the Third Eye or Tisra Til!
                                      > Why didn't Klemp at least use
                                      > the (Astral) Crown Chakra when
                                      > having Eckists HU? After 30 years
                                      > and HK still has Eckists HUing
                                      > and focusing upon the 6th,
                                      > Third Eye, Astral Chakra versus
                                      > the 7th Crown Chakra!
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > The shame of it all is that this deception is done in the name of
                                      an
                                      > unconditional open heart to give love, which it is true, a part of
                                      GOD's flow
                                      > but where's the truth ? What happened to that part of GOD ??? I
                                      guess it got
                                      > lost in the sea of love…
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                                      > "common language" but it's not
                                      > quite true. ECK is not a common
                                      > word and neither is Mahanta.
                                      > And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                                      > to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                                      > others worship or think he is speaking
                                      > about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                                      > use the word GOD when it's not
                                      > who or what they are referring
                                      > to. It's like comparing apples
                                      > to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                                      > start out, and are trained, to be
                                      > deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                                      > fact alone makes Eckankar look
                                      > very cult like. But, why the lie?
                                      > The "common language" excuse
                                      > doesn't hold water but Eckists
                                      > can't question this underhanded
                                      > practice or else they can have
                                      > their position taken away and
                                      > be Black Listed and shunned.
                                      >
                                      > Prometheus
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Hello prometheus_973;
                                      > Remember me ? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writ
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Hello Rosemarie,
                                      > > I am a seeker of Truth as well.
                                      > > And yes, this article on "The Dark
                                      > > Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
                                      > > there is a dark side to Eckankar and
                                      > > there is also fear.
                                      > >
                                      > > I find it interesting that you've
                                      > > read (and I assume have contemplated
                                      > > upon) David Lane's research as well as
                                      > > Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
                                      > > and have, still, remained an ECKist.
                                      > >
                                      > > What happened to your "critical thinking?"
                                      > > Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
                                      > > you agree with some of it but not all of
                                      > > it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
                                      > > I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
                                      > > isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
                                      > > what they believe than any other religion
                                      > > they've found. Is that the case with you?
                                      > >
                                      > > I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
                                      > > book, threw it away (because of the bad
                                      > > vibes), and then placed themselves upon
                                      > > pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
                                      > > and talk Eckists through their doubts and
                                      > > concerns.
                                      > >
                                      > > You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
                                      > > not all truth is the same. That's why there
                                      > > are so many churches. People are social
                                      > > animals and tend to seek out others with
                                      > > similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
                                      > > to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
                                      > > to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
                                      > > and a test for Soul.
                                      > >
                                      > > I also got the impression that you don't
                                      > > participate much within the RESA structure.
                                      > > Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
                                      > > Do you know that you have to watch what
                                      > > you say? You've observed and learned that
                                      > > correct? You do care about being promoted
                                      > > to that next initiation right?
                                      > >
                                      > > Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
                                      > > take on the subjects that we've been discussing
                                      > > here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
                                      > > lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
                                      > > for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
                                      > > Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
                                      > > when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
                                      > > "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
                                      > > detectors just for his talk?
                                      > >
                                      > > You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                                      > > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
                                      > > at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."
                                      > >
                                      > > BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
                                      > > read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?
                                      > >
                                      > > Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
                                      > > the table.
                                      > >
                                      > > Prometheus
                                      > >
                                      > > rosemarie wrote:
                                      > > Hi Diana,
                                      > >
                                      > > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar
                                      and while on
                                      this
                                      > path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as
                                      well. I've been
                                      > to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I
                                      agree that
                                      > honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also
                                      understand that
                                      truth
                                      > is truth and will always be the truth.
                                      > >
                                      > > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless
                                      of what path we
                                      > follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are
                                      all searching
                                      > which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and
                                      let's
                                      remember,
                                      > we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We
                                      have so much
                                      to
                                      > bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and
                                      experience.
                                      > >
                                      > > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it
                                      even if it
                                      hurts
                                      > sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back
                                      to GOD, we
                                      must
                                      > be brave and remain in truth.
                                      > >
                                      > > Thank you for getting back to me.
                                      > > Rosemarie
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > dianastanley wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you
                                      have any
                                      > direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it
                                      is from
                                      > personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time.
                                      If it is
                                      > hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew
                                      and was
                                      > their experience I also say.
                                      > >
                                      > > Diana Stanley
                                      > >
                                      > > Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for
                                      those of you who
                                      > are searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for
                                      sharing your
                                      > findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light"
                                      of critical
                                      > thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.
                                      > >
                                      > I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar
                                      has issues.
                                      > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this
                                      site, so we
                                      > have allot to bring to the table.
                                      > >
                                      > I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used
                                      in this paper
                                      > called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links"
                                      in this web
                                      > site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of
                                      challenge because
                                      > I'd raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this
                                      paper as
                                      > well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be
                                      painted with
                                      > complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of
                                      critical
                                      > thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being
                                      completely
                                      > objective.
                                      >
                                      > For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack
                                      ECKankar in this
                                      > paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they
                                      originated.
                                      > >
                                      > I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure
                                      is overdo
                                      > within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is
                                      based on
                                      > the facts.
                                      > >
                                      > I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't
                                      think
                                      > the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within
                                      one religious
                                      > belief system and exchange them for another in the name of
                                      critical thinking.
                                      > Do you?
                                      >
                                    • prometheus_973
                                      Hello Etznab and All, It is interesting that Twitchell has his Rebazar character (the Master who initiated him) indicate that there were 8 Planes just as
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Sep 16, 2011
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Hello Etznab and All,
                                        It is interesting that Twitchell
                                        has his Rebazar character (the
                                        "Master" who initiated him)
                                        indicate that there were 8 Planes
                                        just as Radhasomi and Ruhani
                                        Satsang have listed in "The Path
                                        of the Masters." Since Kirpal
                                        Singh, of Ruhani Satsang, was
                                        Paul's real life Master for ten years
                                        it's no wonder that this dogma was
                                        influential in the design of Eckankar.

                                        Of course, Twitchell was constantly
                                        tweaking, revising, and masking his
                                        religious con as time went by.

                                        The Anami Lok (10th Plane where
                                        "Sugmad" resides) didn't appear until
                                        later. Did Rebazar simply forget to
                                        mention this as well as the "Mahanta?"
                                        Did RT think that Paul needed to be
                                        spoon-fed and wasn't ready for this
                                        advanced "spiritual" info? No, not really.
                                        According to Twitchell he had been
                                        given the 12th and "final initiation"
                                        (to become LEM) back in 1951 by
                                        Rebazar while on his "2nd" visit to
                                        India. See, the timeline is off for this
                                        ekplanation to be taken seriously as
                                        well.

                                        Therefore, there is no rational excuse
                                        for these inconsistencies except to
                                        admit that the "rascal" Twitchell was,
                                        once again, "exaggerating" and "twisting
                                        facts" as even Klemp has described
                                        and said of him. Klemp, years ago,
                                        had to admit that Twitchell was a self-
                                        promoter and did or said whatever
                                        he needed to do ("By Any Means Necessary")
                                        in order to get Eckankar off the ground.

                                        This is why Klemp, at first, had a
                                        difficult job of explaining Twitchell's
                                        inconsistencies and needed to keep
                                        Eckists confused, busy, and off-balance.
                                        Now, Eckists are so brainwashed that
                                        Klemp can say whatever in his simple
                                        minded redundant versions of feel-good
                                        New Age spirituality.


                                        Prometheus



                                        etznab wrote:

                                        One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar Tarzs
                                        mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme. Check the
                                        index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with the Master.

                                        The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless region,
                                        [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called THE FACE OF
                                        GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying: [Quoting]
                                        "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the light of
                                        God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes could not look
                                        upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean of Love
                                        and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return in time."
                                        (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)

                                        Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in the House
                                        of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens. Ye cannot
                                        go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with my divine
                                        self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in the divine
                                        cause!"

                                        Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the Master, has
                                        Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting snippet]:

                                        "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in a
                                        mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
                                        attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
                                        "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and after
                                        this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul reaches
                                        the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or the SUGMAD,
                                        the supreme LORD of all that exists."

                                        http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html

                                        Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the description
                                        slightly:

                                        "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the Sat Nam in
                                        a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in all Sat
                                        Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the three
                                        remaining known planes.

                                        "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
                                        after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam Purusha, or
                                        lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region of the
                                        nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first you know
                                        about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the Divine.

                                        "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."

                                        http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html

                                        Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is illustrated (by
                                        Paul Twitchell) slightly different.

                                        "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam Lok.
                                        Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the end of its
                                        journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the supreme
                                        lord of all that exists."

                                        http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html

                                        The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok, Alak Lok,
                                        Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with Ocean of
                                        Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip mention of
                                        Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.

                                        In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master, Introduction to
                                        Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes similarly, and
                                        in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain sections from
                                        The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:

                                        "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit is
                                        expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal, Nirala,
                                        Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
                                        Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country

                                        http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html

                                        "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many words, such
                                        as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala, Anami, Agam,
                                        Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar, Parameshwar,
                                        Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters

                                        http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html

                                        Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent from the
                                        Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR vs.
                                        Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian Johnson's book,
                                        The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The Far
                                        Country, by at least three decades!

                                        Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word, trademarked
                                        it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is somehow more
                                        than a paraphrase.
                                      • etznab18
                                        Almost didn t see this response because the e-mail bounced. Umm ... about the self-promotion, whatever, people can read about some of the history here.
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Sep 16, 2011
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Almost didn't see this response because the e-mail bounced.

                                          Umm ... about the self-promotion, whatever, people can read about some of the history here.

                                          http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html

                                          Check out 4th paragraph of article entitled: Paul's Seal of Approval.

                                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Hello Etznab and All,
                                          > It is interesting that Twitchell
                                          > has his Rebazar character (the
                                          > "Master" who initiated him)
                                          > indicate that there were 8 Planes
                                          > just as Radhasomi and Ruhani
                                          > Satsang have listed in "The Path
                                          > of the Masters." Since Kirpal
                                          > Singh, of Ruhani Satsang, was
                                          > Paul's real life Master for ten years
                                          > it's no wonder that this dogma was
                                          > influential in the design of Eckankar.
                                          >
                                          > Of course, Twitchell was constantly
                                          > tweaking, revising, and masking his
                                          > religious con as time went by.
                                          >
                                          > The Anami Lok (10th Plane where
                                          > "Sugmad" resides) didn't appear until
                                          > later. Did Rebazar simply forget to
                                          > mention this as well as the "Mahanta?"
                                          > Did RT think that Paul needed to be
                                          > spoon-fed and wasn't ready for this
                                          > advanced "spiritual" info? No, not really.
                                          > According to Twitchell he had been
                                          > given the 12th and "final initiation"
                                          > (to become LEM) back in 1951 by
                                          > Rebazar while on his "2nd" visit to
                                          > India. See, the timeline is off for this
                                          > ekplanation to be taken seriously as
                                          > well.
                                          >
                                          > Therefore, there is no rational excuse
                                          > for these inconsistencies except to
                                          > admit that the "rascal" Twitchell was,
                                          > once again, "exaggerating" and "twisting
                                          > facts" as even Klemp has described
                                          > and said of him. Klemp, years ago,
                                          > had to admit that Twitchell was a self-
                                          > promoter and did or said whatever
                                          > he needed to do ("By Any Means Necessary")
                                          > in order to get Eckankar off the ground.
                                          >
                                          > This is why Klemp, at first, had a
                                          > difficult job of explaining Twitchell's
                                          > inconsistencies and needed to keep
                                          > Eckists confused, busy, and off-balance.
                                          > Now, Eckists are so brainwashed that
                                          > Klemp can say whatever in his simple
                                          > minded redundant versions of feel-good
                                          > New Age spirituality.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Prometheus
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > etznab wrote:
                                          >
                                          > One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar Tarzs
                                          > mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme. Check the
                                          > index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with the Master.
                                          >
                                          > The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless region,
                                          > [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called THE FACE OF
                                          > GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying: [Quoting]
                                          > "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the light of
                                          > God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes could not look
                                          > upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean of Love
                                          > and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return in time."
                                          > (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)
                                          >
                                          > Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in the House
                                          > of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens. Ye cannot
                                          > go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with my divine
                                          > self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in the divine
                                          > cause!"
                                          >
                                          > Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the Master, has
                                          > Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting snippet]:
                                          >
                                          > "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in a
                                          > mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
                                          > attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
                                          > "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and after
                                          > this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul reaches
                                          > the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or the SUGMAD,
                                          > the supreme LORD of all that exists."
                                          >
                                          > http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html
                                          >
                                          > Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the description
                                          > slightly:
                                          >
                                          > "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the Sat Nam in
                                          > a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in all Sat
                                          > Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the three
                                          > remaining known planes.
                                          >
                                          > "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
                                          > after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam Purusha, or
                                          > lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region of the
                                          > nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first you know
                                          > about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the Divine.
                                          >
                                          > "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."
                                          >
                                          > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                          >
                                          > Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is illustrated (by
                                          > Paul Twitchell) slightly different.
                                          >
                                          > "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam Lok.
                                          > Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the end of its
                                          > journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the supreme
                                          > lord of all that exists."
                                          >
                                          > http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html
                                          >
                                          > The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok, Alak Lok,
                                          > Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with Ocean of
                                          > Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip mention of
                                          > Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.
                                          >
                                          > In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master, Introduction to
                                          > Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes similarly, and
                                          > in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain sections from
                                          > The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:
                                          >
                                          > "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit is
                                          > expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal, Nirala,
                                          > Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
                                          > Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country
                                          >
                                          > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                          >
                                          > "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many words, such
                                          > as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala, Anami, Agam,
                                          > Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar, Parameshwar,
                                          > Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters
                                          >
                                          > http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html
                                          >
                                          > Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent from the
                                          > Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR vs.
                                          > Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian Johnson's book,
                                          > The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The Far
                                          > Country, by at least three decades!
                                          >
                                          > Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word, trademarked
                                          > it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is somehow more
                                          > than a paraphrase.
                                          >
                                        • prometheus_973
                                          Hello Etznab and All, This tells how Paul Twitchell was His Own Drum Beater: http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html What s interesting is that at
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Sep 17, 2011
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Hello Etznab and All,
                                            This tells how Paul Twitchell
                                            was His Own Drum Beater:

                                            http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html

                                            What's interesting is that at age 27 (1935)
                                            Twitchell was saying that he had been
                                            to India (supposedly at age 15 to meet
                                            Rebazar for the first time, DOBTLEM).
                                            However, Klemp points out that Twitchell
                                            was doing another self-promotion, and
                                            was lying in order to get into Who's Who
                                            in Kentucky. Klemp states that Twitchell
                                            had never been all that far from home
                                            at age 27. Klemp seems to have stepped
                                            into a big pile of Twits mess. HK's
                                            statement contradicts what Twitchell
                                            revealed in Difficulties of Becoming the
                                            Living ECK Master circa July, 1971. This
                                            1971 date is, supposedly, long after Twitchell
                                            (the Mahanta) was was no longer "exaggerating"
                                            and "twisting facts." However, as Klemp
                                            has pointed out Twitchell was still lying
                                            and promoting his con up until his untimely
                                            and death in September, 1971.

                                            Prometheus

                                            etznab@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Almost didn't see this response because the e-mail bounced.
                                            >
                                            > Umm ... about the self-promotion, whatever, people can read about some of the history here.
                                            >
                                            > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html
                                            >
                                            > Check out 4th paragraph of article entitled: Paul's Seal of Approval.
                                            >
                                            > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > Hello Etznab and All,
                                            > > It is interesting that Twitchell
                                            > > has his Rebazar character (the
                                            > > "Master" who initiated him)
                                            > > indicate that there were 8 Planes
                                            > > just as Radhasomi and Ruhani
                                            > > Satsang have listed in "The Path
                                            > > of the Masters." Since Kirpal
                                            > > Singh, of Ruhani Satsang, was
                                            > > Paul's real life Master for ten years
                                            > > it's no wonder that this dogma was
                                            > > influential in the design of Eckankar.
                                            > >
                                            > > Of course, Twitchell was constantly
                                            > > tweaking, revising, and masking his
                                            > > religious con as time went by.
                                            > >
                                            > > The Anami Lok (10th Plane where
                                            > > "Sugmad" resides) didn't appear until
                                            > > later. Did Rebazar simply forget to
                                            > > mention this as well as the "Mahanta?"
                                            > > Did RT think that Paul needed to be
                                            > > spoon-fed and wasn't ready for this
                                            > > advanced "spiritual" info? No, not really.
                                            > > According to Twitchell he had been
                                            > > given the 12th and "final initiation"
                                            > > (to become LEM) back in 1951 by
                                            > > Rebazar while on his "2nd" visit to
                                            > > India. See, the timeline is off for this
                                            > > ekplanation to be taken seriously as
                                            > > well.
                                            > >
                                            > > Therefore, there is no rational excuse
                                            > > for these inconsistencies except to
                                            > > admit that the "rascal" Twitchell was,
                                            > > once again, "exaggerating" and "twisting
                                            > > facts" as even Klemp has described
                                            > > and said of him. Klemp, years ago,
                                            > > had to admit that Twitchell was a self-
                                            > > promoter and did or said whatever
                                            > > he needed to do ("By Any Means Necessary")
                                            > > in order to get Eckankar off the ground.
                                            > >
                                            > > This is why Klemp, at first, had a
                                            > > difficult job of explaining Twitchell's
                                            > > inconsistencies and needed to keep
                                            > > Eckists confused, busy, and off-balance.
                                            > > Now, Eckists are so brainwashed that
                                            > > Klemp can say whatever in his simple
                                            > > minded redundant versions of feel-good
                                            > > New Age spirituality.
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > Prometheus
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > etznab wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar Tarzs
                                            > > mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme. Check the
                                            > > index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with the Master.
                                            > >
                                            > > The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless region,
                                            > > [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called THE FACE OF
                                            > > GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying: [Quoting]
                                            > > "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the light of
                                            > > God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes could not look
                                            > > upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean of Love
                                            > > and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return in time."
                                            > > (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)
                                            > >
                                            > > Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in the House
                                            > > of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens. Ye cannot
                                            > > go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with my divine
                                            > > self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in the divine
                                            > > cause!"
                                            > >
                                            > > Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the Master, has
                                            > > Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting snippet]:
                                            > >
                                            > > "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in a
                                            > > mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
                                            > > attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
                                            > > "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and after
                                            > > this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul reaches
                                            > > the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or the SUGMAD,
                                            > > the supreme LORD of all that exists."
                                            > >
                                            > > http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html
                                            > >
                                            > > Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the description
                                            > > slightly:
                                            > >
                                            > > "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the Sat Nam in
                                            > > a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in all Sat
                                            > > Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the three
                                            > > remaining known planes.
                                            > >
                                            > > "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
                                            > > after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam Purusha, or
                                            > > lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region of the
                                            > > nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first you know
                                            > > about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the Divine.
                                            > >
                                            > > "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."
                                            > >
                                            > > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                            > >
                                            > > Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is illustrated (by
                                            > > Paul Twitchell) slightly different.
                                            > >
                                            > > "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam Lok.
                                            > > Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the end of its
                                            > > journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the supreme
                                            > > lord of all that exists."
                                            > >
                                            > > http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html
                                            > >
                                            > > The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok, Alak Lok,
                                            > > Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with Ocean of
                                            > > Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip mention of
                                            > > Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.
                                            > >
                                            > > In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master, Introduction to
                                            > > Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes similarly, and
                                            > > in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain sections from
                                            > > The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:
                                            > >
                                            > > "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit is
                                            > > expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal, Nirala,
                                            > > Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
                                            > > Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country
                                            > >
                                            > > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                            > >
                                            > > "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many words, such
                                            > > as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala, Anami, Agam,
                                            > > Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar, Parameshwar,
                                            > > Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters
                                            > >
                                            > > http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html
                                            > >
                                            > > Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent from the
                                            > > Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR vs.
                                            > > Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian Johnson's book,
                                            > > The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The Far
                                            > > Country, by at least three decades!
                                            > >
                                            > > Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word, trademarked
                                            > > it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is somehow more
                                            > > than a paraphrase.
                                            > >
                                            >
                                          • etznab@aol.com
                                            I think a lot of people can overlook this stuff, thinking that whatever Paul Twitchell said/wrote must be the truth. Some people just might not care. Well,
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Sep 17, 2011
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              I think a lot of people can overlook this stuff, thinking that whatever
                                              Paul Twitchell said/wrote must be the truth. Some people just might not
                                              care. Well, it's reasonable to suspect this talent - for promotion,
                                              even when it means making things up, stretching the truth, or just
                                              plain spinning lies - was used to "create" the Eckankar mythos.

                                              myth

                                              1830, from Gk. mythos "speech, thought, story, myth," of unknown origin.

                                              Myths are "stories about divine beings, generally arranged in a
                                              coherent system; they are revered as true and sacred; they are endorsed
                                              by rulers and priests; and closely linked to religion. Once this link
                                              is broken, and the actors in the story are not regarded as gods but as
                                              human heroes, giants or fairies, it is no longer a myth but a folktale.
                                              Where the central actor is divine but the story is trivial ... the
                                              result is religious legend, not myth." [J. Simpson & S. Roud,
                                              "Dictionary of English Folklore," Oxford, 2000, p.254]

                                              General sense of "untrue story, rumor" is from 1840.

                                              http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=mythos&searchmode=none

                                              In other words, amid all the compilations and recycled material, etc.,
                                              context has been changed (in various places) when it comes to source. I
                                              wonder, could Paul Twitchell have created "Eckankar" and at the same
                                              time given the source for all of his material? I noticed Kirpal Singh
                                              and others were very good at citing references and sharing what
                                              quote/saying came from who. So if Paul Twitchell ever chose to use
                                              passages and paragraphs from books, Did he always feel obligated to
                                              provide that information?

                                              As a promoter, I suspect the person wants to give credit to whatever
                                              they're promoting and not give more credit to "other products" instead.
                                              It makes sense (to me) that Paul Twitchell would "paint the name
                                              Eckankar" over so much material he had read (in so many words). Not
                                              only this, but it even appears probable that Paul Twitchell took
                                              liberty to respell and redefine words according to fit them in a new,
                                              and growing, Eckankar philosophy. Not only words, but names too!

                                              How extensive the promotion and PR campaign that created contemporary
                                              Eckankar teaching? In so many ways, it seems this is the part that
                                              doesn't agree with people. Not unless they knew from the beginning that
                                              information was not necessarily accurate and in some places embellished.

                                              embellish

                                              mid-14c., "to render beautiful," from O.Fr. embelliss-, stem of
                                              embellir "make beautiful, ornament," from em- (see en- (1)) + bel
                                              "beautiful," from L. bellus (see bene-). Meaning "dress up (a
                                              narration) with fictitious matter" is from mid-15c. Related:
                                              Embellished; embellishing.

                                              http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=embellished&searchmode=none

                                              Reading through early Eckankar books I think common sense might tell a
                                              person that parts of the material was embellished. At the same time I
                                              also think people could naturally so much want the material to be true
                                              that they allow imagination to "make it so" and overrule common sense.

                                              Ever observe what happens when you're part of a group where countless
                                              individuals believe in things - through imagination - that aren't
                                              necessarily true? I mean, when you're one of the unbelievers and part
                                              of the minority who question whether so many imagined things are true?


                                              -----Original Message-----
                                              From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                                              <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                                              Sent: Sat, Sep 17, 2011 2:14 am
                                              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: "The Dark Side of ECKankar" -
                                              And More!

                                               
                                              Hello Etznab and All,
                                              This tells how Paul Twitchell
                                              was His Own Drum Beater:

                                              http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html

                                              What's interesting is that at age 27 (1935)
                                              Twitchell was saying that he had been
                                              to India (supposedly at age 15 to meet
                                              Rebazar for the first time, DOBTLEM).
                                              However, Klemp points out that Twitchell
                                              was doing another self-promotion, and
                                              was lying in order to get into Who's Who
                                              in Kentucky. Klemp states that Twitchell
                                              had never been all that far from home
                                              at age 27. Klemp seems to have stepped
                                              into a big pile of Twits mess. HK's
                                              statement contradicts what Twitchell
                                              revealed in Difficulties of Becoming the
                                              Living ECK Master circa July, 1971. This
                                              1971 date is, supposedly, long after Twitchell
                                              (the Mahanta) was was no longer "exaggerating"
                                              and "twisting facts." However, as Klemp
                                              has pointed out Twitchell was still lying
                                              and promoting his con up until his untimely
                                              and death in September, 1971.

                                              Prometheus

                                              etznab@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Almost didn't see this response because the e-mail bounced.
                                              >
                                              > Umm ... about the self-promotion, whatever, people can read about
                                              some of the history here.
                                              >
                                              > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html
                                              >
                                              > Check out 4th paragraph of article entitled: Paul's Seal of
                                              Approval.
                                              >
                                              > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                                              "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > Hello Etznab and All,
                                              > > It is interesting that Twitchell
                                              > > has his Rebazar character (the
                                              > > "Master" who initiated him)
                                              > > indicate that there were 8 Planes
                                              > > just as Radhasomi and Ruhani
                                              > > Satsang have listed in "The Path
                                              > > of the Masters." Since Kirpal
                                              > > Singh, of Ruhani Satsang, was
                                              > > Paul's real life Master for ten years
                                              > > it's no wonder that this dogma was
                                              > > influential in the design of Eckankar.
                                              > >
                                              > > Of course, Twitchell was constantly
                                              > > tweaking, revising, and masking his
                                              > > religious con as time went by.
                                              > >
                                              > > The Anami Lok (10th Plane where
                                              > > "Sugmad" resides) didn't appear until
                                              > > later. Did Rebazar simply forget to
                                              > > mention this as well as the "Mahanta?"
                                              > > Did RT think that Paul needed to be
                                              > > spoon-fed and wasn't ready for this
                                              > > advanced "spiritual" info? No, not really.
                                              > > According to Twitchell he had been
                                              > > given the 12th and "final initiation"
                                              > > (to become LEM) back in 1951 by
                                              > > Rebazar while on his "2nd" visit to
                                              > > India. See, the timeline is off for this
                                              > > ekplanation to be taken seriously as
                                              > > well.
                                              > >
                                              > > Therefore, there is no rational excuse
                                              > > for these inconsistencies except to
                                              > > admit that the "rascal" Twitchell was,
                                              > > once again, "exaggerating" and "twisting
                                              > > facts" as even Klemp has described
                                              > > and said of him. Klemp, years ago,
                                              > > had to admit that Twitchell was a self-
                                              > > promoter and did or said whatever
                                              > > he needed to do ("By Any Means Necessary")
                                              > > in order to get Eckankar off the ground.
                                              > >
                                              > > This is why Klemp, at first, had a
                                              > > difficult job of explaining Twitchell's
                                              > > inconsistencies and needed to keep
                                              > > Eckists confused, busy, and off-balance.
                                              > > Now, Eckists are so brainwashed that
                                              > > Klemp can say whatever in his simple
                                              > > minded redundant versions of feel-good
                                              > > New Age spirituality.
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > Prometheus
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > etznab wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar
                                              Tarzs
                                              > > mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme.
                                              Check the
                                              > > index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with
                                              the Master.
                                              > >
                                              > > The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless
                                              region,
                                              > > [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called
                                              THE FACE OF
                                              > > GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying:
                                              [Quoting]
                                              > > "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the
                                              light of
                                              > > God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes
                                              could not look
                                              > > upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean
                                              of Love
                                              > > and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return
                                              in time."
                                              > > (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)
                                              > >
                                              > > Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in
                                              the House
                                              > > of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens.
                                              Ye cannot
                                              > > go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with
                                              my divine
                                              > > self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in
                                              the divine
                                              > > cause!"
                                              > >
                                              > > Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the
                                              Master, has
                                              > > Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting
                                              snippet]:
                                              > >
                                              > > "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in
                                              a
                                              > > mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
                                              > > attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
                                              > > "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
                                              after
                                              > > this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul
                                              reaches
                                              > > the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or
                                              the SUGMAD,
                                              > > the supreme LORD of all that exists."
                                              > >
                                              > > http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html
                                              > >
                                              > > Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the
                                              description
                                              > > slightly:
                                              > >
                                              > > "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the
                                              Sat Nam in
                                              > > a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in
                                              all Sat
                                              > > Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the
                                              three
                                              > > remaining known planes.
                                              > >
                                              > > "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha,
                                              and
                                              > > after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam
                                              Purusha, or
                                              > > lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region
                                              of the
                                              > > nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first
                                              you know
                                              > > about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the
                                              Divine.
                                              > >
                                              > > "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."
                                              > >
                                              > > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                              > >
                                              > > Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is
                                              illustrated (by
                                              > > Paul Twitchell) slightly different.
                                              > >
                                              > > "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam
                                              Lok.
                                              > > Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the
                                              end of its
                                              > > journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the
                                              supreme
                                              > > lord of all that exists."
                                              > >
                                              > > http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html
                                              > >
                                              > > The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok,
                                              Alak Lok,
                                              > > Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with
                                              Ocean of
                                              > > Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip
                                              mention of
                                              > > Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.
                                              > >
                                              > > In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master,
                                              Introduction to
                                              > > Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes
                                              similarly, and
                                              > > in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain
                                              sections from
                                              > > The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:
                                              > >
                                              > > "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit
                                              is
                                              > > expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal,
                                              Nirala,
                                              > > Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
                                              > > Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country
                                              > >
                                              > > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                              > >
                                              > > "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many
                                              words, such
                                              > > as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala,
                                              Anami, Agam,
                                              > > Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar,
                                              Parameshwar,
                                              > > Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters
                                              > >
                                              > > http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html
                                              > >
                                              > > Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent
                                              from the
                                              > > Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR
                                              vs.
                                              > > Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian
                                              Johnson's book,
                                              > > The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The
                                              Far
                                              > > Country, by at least three decades!
                                              > >
                                              > > Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word,
                                              trademarked
                                              > > it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is
                                              somehow more
                                              > > than a paraphrase.
                                              > >
                                              >
                                            • prometheus_973
                                              Hello Etznab and All, It s true that most Eckists have turned a blind eye towards their religion. However, it s done via Klemp s subtle and not so subtle
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Sep 17, 2011
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Hello Etznab and All,
                                                It's true that most Eckists have
                                                turned a blind eye towards their
                                                religion. However, it's done via
                                                Klemp's subtle and not so subtle
                                                intimidation tactics such as:

                                                Going to the "inner" to have
                                                one's questions answered...
                                                this is what the more "advanced"
                                                and "enlightened" Eckists do.

                                                Using the Buddha quote of, "Is
                                                it true, is it necessary, is it kind"
                                                this I ask myself before I speak
                                                my mind.

                                                HK writing articles and giving
                                                talks on the negativity of gossip
                                                and how it hinders one's "spiritual"
                                                growth.

                                                Also, there's the unspoken knowledge
                                                that those who ask too many questions,
                                                especially "wrong" questions, will get
                                                Eckists Black Listed on initiations or
                                                to have them slowed down 3-5 years
                                                (on average) longer than normal.

                                                Plus, Eckankar's Higher Initiates
                                                (5-7) are a very passive group
                                                and don't want to question the
                                                foundation of their religion because
                                                things are going okay so why rock
                                                the boat? Being an H.I. is an ego
                                                trip and a security blanket too.

                                                And, let's face it, most Eckists don't
                                                have the time or inclination to research
                                                the old, P.T., Eckankar texts. They've
                                                read it all before so why go back and
                                                read it with new eyes and a changed
                                                consciousness? However, it does make
                                                one wonder why they've allowed them-
                                                selves to be shackled to HK's dogma
                                                when it's all based upon Twitchell's
                                                "compilation."

                                                In PT's Eckankar Dictionary, Shariyat
                                                One and HK's First Lexicon, they
                                                tell about the first "root race" called
                                                the "POLARIANS." Klemp must agree
                                                with Twitchell on this dogmatic information
                                                since he put it into his own Eckankar
                                                Lexicon.

                                                But, do Eckists really believe in the
                                                Old Testament Christian Myth about
                                                the Garden of Eden? Actually, no,
                                                they don't! I've even read where
                                                they've made fun of this. How ironic!
                                                Twitchell not only states that the
                                                Garden of Eden existed but gives
                                                his own (revised) names of those
                                                present. In the ECK version Adam
                                                becomes "Adom" and Eve becomes
                                                "Ede" (like in Eden) This is, of course,
                                                a clear picture of how Twitchell created
                                                Eckankar. He took certain words,
                                                names, and information changed
                                                the text and letters around, or added
                                                and omitted letters, and made the
                                                info his own.

                                                What's really funny is that in defense
                                                of Twitchell Klemp has claimed that
                                                Paul "compiled" only the highest teachings
                                                from around the world in order to
                                                create the highest "spiritual" teaching
                                                anywhere and at anytime. Why then,
                                                did Twitchell use the Garden of Eden
                                                myth, and create Adom and Ede?
                                                Is this supposed to be the actual
                                                account while the Christian version
                                                is less accurate. This is how Eckists
                                                rationalize and explain everything
                                                (the truth) away. ECK is a facsimile
                                                and everything else is a copy. But
                                                this shows that all religions are
                                                distorted and inaccurate copies.

                                                It really should be embarrassing,
                                                for Eckists, since this information
                                                is listed in their first Holy Book
                                                under Polarian race (check the
                                                index for the page number).

                                                Plus, let's face it. This Garden
                                                of Eden myth is a non-evolutionary
                                                belief. It was devised during
                                                a time of ignorance and pre-science
                                                in order to give a religious explanation
                                                for creation. And, it's been revised
                                                even by early Christianity because
                                                Lillith was supposed to have been
                                                Adam's first mate who was created
                                                equally with him.

                                                Later, the creation myth story was
                                                changed so that Eve was created
                                                from Adam's rib in order to make
                                                her subservient to him... as Eckists
                                                are to subservient to Klemp. Thus,
                                                no female LEMs and even Mahantas
                                                are permitted due to some hokey
                                                negative atom ekplanation.


                                                But, Eckists are in denial of the truth
                                                as they continue to pretend they
                                                are advanced Souls. The mind is
                                                very powerful and that's why Eckankar
                                                appears to work for Eckists. The
                                                mind will give one the dreams
                                                and "signs" that are programmed
                                                into it via suggestion and expectation.
                                                However, isn't this the modus
                                                operandi of all religions? If one
                                                just Googles "miracles" one can
                                                see examples of faith and belief
                                                that would put any Eckist to shame.

                                                Therefore, why do Eckists not
                                                see the truth? Is it that they
                                                have tied up their camels, to
                                                a fraudent belief, and now, trust
                                                in a make believe God/Mahanta...
                                                Klemp? It is the Easy Way!

                                                Prometheus




                                                etznab@... wrote:
                                                I think a lot of people can overlook this stuff, thinking that whatever
                                                Paul Twitchell said/wrote must be the truth. Some people just might not
                                                care. Well, it's reasonable to suspect this talent - for promotion,
                                                even when it means making things up, stretching the truth, or just
                                                plain spinning lies - was used to "create" the Eckankar mythos.

                                                myth

                                                1830, from Gk. mythos "speech, thought, story, myth," of unknown origin.

                                                Myths are "stories about divine beings, generally arranged in a
                                                coherent system; they are revered as true and sacred; they are endorsed
                                                by rulers and priests; and closely linked to religion. Once this link
                                                is broken, and the actors in the story are not regarded as gods but as
                                                human heroes, giants or fairies, it is no longer a myth but a folktale.
                                                Where the central actor is divine but the story is trivial ... the
                                                result is religious legend, not myth." [J. Simpson & S. Roud,
                                                "Dictionary of English Folklore," Oxford, 2000, p.254]

                                                General sense of "untrue story, rumor" is from 1840.

                                                http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=mythos&searchmode=\
                                                \
                                                none

                                                In other words, amid all the compilations and recycled material, etc.,
                                                context has been changed (in various places) when it comes to source. I
                                                wonder, could Paul Twitchell have created "Eckankar" and at the same
                                                time given the source for all of his material? I noticed Kirpal Singh
                                                and others were very good at citing references and sharing what
                                                quote/saying came from who. So if Paul Twitchell ever chose to use
                                                passages and paragraphs from books, Did he always feel obligated to
                                                provide that information?

                                                As a promoter, I suspect the person wants to give credit to whatever
                                                they're promoting and not give more credit to "other products" instead.
                                                It makes sense (to me) that Paul Twitchell would "paint the name
                                                Eckankar" over so much material he had read (in so many words). Not
                                                only this, but it even appears probable that Paul Twitchell took
                                                liberty to respell and redefine words according to fit them in a new,
                                                and growing, Eckankar philosophy. Not only words, but names too!

                                                How extensive the promotion and PR campaign that created contemporary
                                                Eckankar teaching? In so many ways, it seems this is the part that
                                                doesn't agree with people. Not unless they knew from the beginning that
                                                information was not necessarily accurate and in some places embellished.

                                                embellish

                                                mid-14c., "to render beautiful," from O.Fr. embelliss-, stem of
                                                embellir "make beautiful, ornament," from em- (see en- (1)) + bel
                                                "beautiful," from L. bellus (see bene-). Meaning "dress up (a
                                                narration) with fictitious matter" is from mid-15c. Related:
                                                Embellished; embellishing.

                                                http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=embellished&search\
                                                \
                                                mode=none

                                                Reading through early Eckankar books I think common sense might tell a
                                                person that parts of the material was embellished. At the same time I
                                                also think people could naturally so much want the material to be true
                                                that they allow imagination to "make it so" and overrule common sense.

                                                Ever observe what happens when you're part of a group where countless
                                                individuals believe in things - through imagination - that aren't
                                                necessarily true? I mean, when you're one of the unbelievers and part
                                                of the minority who question whether so many imagined things are true?


                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                                                <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                                                Sent: Sat, Sep 17, 2011 2:14 am
                                                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: "The Dark Side of ECKankar" -
                                                And More!

                                                Â
                                                Hello Etznab and All,
                                                This tells how Paul Twitchell
                                                was His Own Drum Beater:

                                                http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html

                                                What's interesting is that at age 27 (1935)
                                                Twitchell was saying that he had been
                                                to India (supposedly at age 15 to meet
                                                Rebazar for the first time, DOBTLEM).
                                                However, Klemp points out that Twitchell
                                                was doing another self-promotion, and
                                                was lying in order to get into Who's Who
                                                in Kentucky. Klemp states that Twitchell
                                                had never been all that far from home
                                                at age 27. Klemp seems to have stepped
                                                into a big pile of Twits mess. HK's
                                                statement contradicts what Twitchell
                                                revealed in Difficulties of Becoming the
                                                Living ECK Master circa July, 1971. This
                                                1971 date is, supposedly, long after Twitchell
                                                (the Mahanta) was was no longer "exaggerating"
                                                and "twisting facts." However, as Klemp
                                                has pointed out Twitchell was still lying
                                                and promoting his con up until his untimely
                                                and death in September, 1971.

                                                Prometheus

                                                etznab@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Almost didn't see this response because the e-mail bounced.
                                                >
                                                > Umm ... about the self-promotion, whatever, people can read about
                                                some of the history here.
                                                >
                                                > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html
                                                >
                                                > Check out 4th paragraph of article entitled: Paul's Seal of
                                                Approval.
                                                >
                                                > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                                                "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > Hello Etznab and All,
                                                > > It is interesting that Twitchell
                                                > > has his Rebazar character (the
                                                > > "Master" who initiated him)
                                                > > indicate that there were 8 Planes
                                                > > just as Radhasomi and Ruhani
                                                > > Satsang have listed in "The Path
                                                > > of the Masters." Since Kirpal
                                                > > Singh, of Ruhani Satsang, was
                                                > > Paul's real life Master for ten years
                                                > > it's no wonder that this dogma was
                                                > > influential in the design of Eckankar.
                                                > >
                                                > > Of course, Twitchell was constantly
                                                > > tweaking, revising, and masking his
                                                > > religious con as time went by.
                                                > >
                                                > > The Anami Lok (10th Plane where
                                                > > "Sugmad" resides) didn't appear until
                                                > > later. Did Rebazar simply forget to
                                                > > mention this as well as the "Mahanta?"
                                                > > Did RT think that Paul needed to be
                                                > > spoon-fed and wasn't ready for this
                                                > > advanced "spiritual" info? No, not really.
                                                > > According to Twitchell he had been
                                                > > given the 12th and "final initiation"
                                                > > (to become LEM) back in 1951 by
                                                > > Rebazar while on his "2nd" visit to
                                                > > India. See, the timeline is off for this
                                                > > ekplanation to be taken seriously as
                                                > > well.
                                                > >
                                                > > Therefore, there is no rational excuse
                                                > > for these inconsistencies except to
                                                > > admit that the "rascal" Twitchell was,
                                                > > once again, "exaggerating" and "twisting
                                                > > facts" as even Klemp has described
                                                > > and said of him. Klemp, years ago,
                                                > > had to admit that Twitchell was a self-
                                                > > promoter and did or said whatever
                                                > > he needed to do ("By Any Means Necessary")
                                                > > in order to get Eckankar off the ground.
                                                > >
                                                > > This is why Klemp, at first, had a
                                                > > difficult job of explaining Twitchell's
                                                > > inconsistencies and needed to keep
                                                > > Eckists confused, busy, and off-balance.
                                                > > Now, Eckists are so brainwashed that
                                                > > Klemp can say whatever in his simple
                                                > > minded redundant versions of feel-good
                                                > > New Age spirituality.
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > Prometheus
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > etznab wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar
                                                Tarzs
                                                > > mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme.
                                                Check the
                                                > > index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with
                                                the Master.
                                                > >
                                                > > The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless
                                                region,
                                                > > [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called
                                                THE FACE OF
                                                > > GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying:
                                                [Quoting]
                                                > > "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the
                                                light of
                                                > > God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes
                                                could not look
                                                > > upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean
                                                of Love
                                                > > and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return
                                                in time."
                                                > > (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)
                                                > >
                                                > > Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in
                                                the House
                                                > > of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens.
                                                Ye cannot
                                                > > go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with
                                                my divine
                                                > > self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in
                                                the divine
                                                > > cause!"
                                                > >
                                                > > Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the
                                                Master, has
                                                > > Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting
                                                snippet]:
                                                > >
                                                > > "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in
                                                a
                                                > > mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
                                                > > attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
                                                > > "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
                                                after
                                                > > this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul
                                                reaches
                                                > > the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or
                                                the SUGMAD,
                                                > > the supreme LORD of all that exists."
                                                > >
                                                > > http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html
                                                > >
                                                > > Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the
                                                description
                                                > > slightly:
                                                > >
                                                > > "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the
                                                Sat Nam in
                                                > > a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in
                                                all Sat
                                                > > Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the
                                                three
                                                > > remaining known planes.
                                                > >
                                                > > "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha,
                                                and
                                                > > after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam
                                                Purusha, or
                                                > > lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region
                                                of the
                                                > > nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first
                                                you know
                                                > > about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the
                                                Divine.
                                                > >
                                                > > "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."
                                                > >
                                                > > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                                > >
                                                > > Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is
                                                illustrated (by
                                                > > Paul Twitchell) slightly different.
                                                > >
                                                > > "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam
                                                Lok.
                                                > > Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the
                                                end of its
                                                > > journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the
                                                supreme
                                                > > lord of all that exists."
                                                > >
                                                > > http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html
                                                > >
                                                > > The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok,
                                                Alak Lok,
                                                > > Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with
                                                Ocean of
                                                > > Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip
                                                mention of
                                                > > Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.
                                                > >
                                                > > In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master,
                                                Introduction to
                                                > > Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes
                                                similarly, and
                                                > > in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain
                                                sections from
                                                > > The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:
                                                > >
                                                > > "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit
                                                is
                                                > > expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal,
                                                Nirala,
                                                > > Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
                                                > > Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country
                                                > >
                                                > > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                                > >
                                                > > "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many
                                                words, such
                                                > > as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala,
                                                Anami, Agam,
                                                > > Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar,
                                                Parameshwar,
                                                > > Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters
                                                > >
                                                > > http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html
                                                > >
                                                > > Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent
                                                from the
                                                > > Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR
                                                vs.
                                                > > Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian
                                                Johnson's book,
                                                > > The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The
                                                Far
                                                > > Country, by at least three decades!
                                                > >
                                                > > Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word,
                                                trademarked
                                                > > it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is
                                                somehow more
                                                > > than a paraphrase.
                                              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.