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"The Dark Side of ECKankar"

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  • Rosemarie Bucci
    I m new to this group. First I d like to say thank you for those of you who are searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
    Message 1 of 24 , Feb 11, 2011
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      I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who are searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar. I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues. We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table.
       
      I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because I'd raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely objective. For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
       
      I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on the facts. I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking. Do you?
       


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    • prometheus_973
      Hello and welcome to the group, First, I don t believe in demonic possession. This link was put up because it s another perspective of Eckankar. Take it with a
      Message 2 of 24 , Feb 11, 2011
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        Hello and welcome to the group,

        First, I don't believe in demonic possession.
        This link was put up because it's another
        perspective of Eckankar. Take it with a grain
        of salt. But, the article does bring up some
        interesting topics and perspectives.

        For one thing it mentions that Darwin Gross
        was Klemp's (our) Master for ten years and
        yet his name is/was forbidden to speak. Plus,
        Klemp never mentioned Gross' death, although,
        he was an ECK Master, passed Harry the Rod,
        and was the 972nd (2nd) LEM, thus, making
        HK the 973rd (3rd) LEM.

        Anyway, why pick and choose this one article?
        How about the other Messages and dialogue?
        Did you read the FILES or look at the other LINKS?

        When you've looked at a few these other sources
        of information perhaps you can pose some questions
        pertaining to what we've written or commented upon?

        BTW-Mahanta means "missionary head." It was
        an obscure word that Twit found and decided
        to use for his newly created title.

        I didn't read the entire article of "The Dark Side
        of Eckankar" because much of it, IMO, is some
        sort of a fanatical exaggeration. Eckankar is
        merely a fraud and another religious scam for
        weak minded individuals and needs no "demonizing."
        The Truth is Klemp's real enemy, but who can
        disprove religious B.S. when people desperately
        need to believe. Everyone needs hope, but religions
        abuse and distort for profit and power.

        What do you think of that Negative Atom/Battery
        excuse as to why females can't become the LEM?
        Isn't this another silly excuse to keep women in
        their place? Sure! And, yet, look at how stupid this
        ekplanation is... but it's accepted. What else is a
        lie? Actually, everything!

        Prometheus

        Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
        >
        > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who are
        > searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
        > findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
        > thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar. I am not here to
        > defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues. We are all
        > affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we have allot to
        > bring to the table.
        >  
        > I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
        > called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
        > site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because I'd
        > raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
        > well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
        > complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
        > thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely objective.
        > For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
        > paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
        >  
        > I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
        > within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on the
        > facts. I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
        > the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
        > belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking. Do
        > you?
      • etznab@aol.com
        You were referring to: The DARK SIDE of ECKANKAR by Ruth and Noah Samuelson. I believe it s necessary to mention that. Along with a link.
        Message 3 of 24 , Feb 12, 2011
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          You were referring to: The DARK SIDE of ECKANKAR by Ruth and Noah
          Samuelson. I believe it's necessary to mention that. Along with a link.

          http://www.scribd.com/doc/8967961/The-DARK-SIDE-of-ECKANKAR-by-Ruth-and-Noah-Samuelson

          Evidently, this was not a paper written by members of this group. And I
          doubt they are / were ever members of Eckankar.

          This literature by the Samuelson's was mentioned on a website called
          eckankartruth as early as October 10th, 2008. I don't know when the
          subject might have been discussed here at ESA. You can do a search on
          both sites, however, and maybe find some of the feedback you're looking
          for there.

          If it's something that you are really interested in, maybe check what
          already has been said about it first.

          -----Original Message-----
          From: starshine917 <rblustar@...>
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
          <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:45 am
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] "The Dark Side of ECKankar"

           
          I recently read "The Dark Side of ECKankar" from your web site.
          Needless to say I was shocked because I am currently an ECKist. I'm
          interested to know why the information presented was concluded as it
          was in representation of something so dark, and fear based. These are
          pretty serious allegations.

          I'd like for you to reach out to me via email because I'm interested in
          further investigation but only if that is acceptable to you. I'd like
          to stick to the facts and evidence.
        • etznab@aol.com
          A lot of religious dogma consists of legends, myths and fables. IMO. Any fables included in the Eckankar dogma prior to the current leadership could be hard to
          Message 4 of 24 , Feb 12, 2011
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            A lot of religious dogma consists of legends,
            myths and fables. IMO.

            Any fables included in the Eckankar dogma
            prior to the current leadership could be hard
            to extract from official dogma. IMO. Granted
            they would be well known via books & talks
            over the years. And they could be believed -
            even literally - by hundreds, or thousands of
            people.

            Here is something the current leader said in
            the early 1980's after becoming the L.E.M.

            "Paul [Paul Twitchell] encouraged people to
            read The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad and make their
            own study. He never said to take the words as
            holy, as the last word. You take the words and
            check out the teachings from within. You ask:
            Does this work for me or doesn't it? You have
            to know. [....]"

            http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/writings.html#ideal

            This was around the time where Harold Klemp
            started talking about Death of an Ideal.

            If a person turns to the introduction section for
            The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, Vol. 1, they can read
            what Paul Twitchell said, compare it with what
            Harold Klemp said, and judge for theirself.

            IMO, fables abound in the Eckankar writings.
            Even in the Shariyat. The challenge comes if
            a person wants to know fact from fiction. The
            creator, author necessary to determine where
            it came from.

            Paul Twitchell was already deceased by the
            time I ever heard of Eckankar. And after him
            Darwin Gross was sent packing (iow). The
            wife of them both is where? I don't know. So
            the people who originally crafted the legends,
            myth, fables, etc., into "Eckankar" writings
            (and those who knew about the crafting) are
            not easy to come by, if you ask me. Neither
            are the original manuscripts and early books
            by Paul Twitchell & Eckankar.

            This is what is necessary, though, for a true
            record of fabrications (IMO). And even after
            the eye-witnesses, or those in the know are
            summoned, things would depend on whether
            they told the truth about what they know!

            Will it ever happen? Will religions (including
            "Eckankar") admit where the fictional parts
            of their teachings came from? Separating
            fact from fiction (with clarity), for the benefit
            of all members who desire the truth? Will we
            ever see the old original manuscripts?

            What happens when the "creators" - and no
            matter who they are - What happens when
            some of the material was borrowed from an-
            other source? Another who borrowed it from
            another before them? And on and on? with
            each writer / religion changing the story at
            will? How does locate the truth in that case?
            Via imagination? :) :) :)

            So not all of the stories are traceable to orig-
            inal sources. IMO. However, many of them
            are. Especially considering a young vs. old
            religion.

            Add to this all of the writers adding more
            "fabulous" material to the history of religion,
            the spin-off groups, etc. etc. and it becomes
            a real miasma.






            -----Original Message-----
            From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
            <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:27 am
            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: "The Dark Side of ECKankar"

             
            Hello and welcome to the group,

            First, I don't believe in demonic possession.
            This link was put up because it's another
            perspective of Eckankar. Take it with a grain
            of salt. But, the article does bring up some
            interesting topics and perspectives.

            For one thing it mentions that Darwin Gross
            was Klemp's (our) Master for ten years and
            yet his name is/was forbidden to speak. Plus,
            Klemp never mentioned Gross' death, although,
            he was an ECK Master, passed Harry the Rod,
            and was the 972nd (2nd) LEM, thus, making
            HK the 973rd (3rd) LEM.

            Anyway, why pick and choose this one article?
            How about the other Messages and dialogue?
            Did you read the FILES or look at the other LINKS?

            When you've looked at a few these other sources
            of information perhaps you can pose some questions
            pertaining to what we've written or commented upon?

            BTW-Mahanta means "missionary head." It was
            an obscure word that Twit found and decided
            to use for his newly created title.

            I didn't read the entire article of "The Dark Side
            of Eckankar" because much of it, IMO, is some
            sort of a fanatical exaggeration. Eckankar is
            merely a fraud and another religious scam for
            weak minded individuals and needs no "demonizing."
            The Truth is Klemp's real enemy, but who can
            disprove religious B.S. when people desperately
            need to believe. Everyone needs hope, but religions
            abuse and distort for profit and power.

            What do you think of that Negative Atom/Battery
            excuse as to why females can't become the LEM?
            Isn't this another silly excuse to keep women in
            their place? Sure! And, yet, look at how stupid this
            ekplanation is... but it's accepted. What else is a
            lie? Actually, everything!

            Prometheus

            Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
            >
            > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those
            of you who are
            > searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for
            sharing your
            > findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the
            "light" of critical
            > thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar. I am
            not here to
            > defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues. We are
            all
            > affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
            have allot to
            > bring to the table.
            >  
            > I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique
            used in this paper
            > called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links"
            in this web
            > site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of
            challenge because I'd
            > raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this
            paper as
            > well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be
            painted with
            > complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of
            critical
            > thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being
            completely objective.
            > For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack
            ECKankar in this
            > paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they
            originated.
            >  
            > I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure
            is overdo
            > within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is
            based on the
            > facts. I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I
            don't think
            > the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within
            one religious
            > belief system and exchange them for another in the name of
            critical thinking. Do
            > you?
          • prometheus_973
            Hello Etznab and All, The problem with what Klemp said early on about interpreting the Shariyat for yourself, on a Soul level I suppose, is that this changed
            Message 5 of 24 , Feb 12, 2011
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              Hello Etznab and All,
              The problem with what Klemp said
              early on about interpreting the Shariyat
              for yourself, on a Soul level I suppose,
              is that this changed over the years.
              It doesn't matter if you pick and choose
              what works for you because that's not
              how it's done anymore. These are "Holy
              Books" and one can't rewrite or reinterpret
              what an ECK Master wrote unless you
              are an ECK Master... Catch-22! Klemp,
              today, has to approve, in writing
              or in a talk, what anyone can believe
              or say officially. Everything, now, is
              regulated with Guidelines including
              EWS topics.

              ECKists can't share their dreams if that
              dream would contradict EK Dogma or
              (seemingly) challenge HK's authority
              or his opinions etc. Look at what happened
              to Graham. He had a dream where a
              Silent One allowed him to hold the Rod
              of ECK Power. This infuriated Klemp and
              Graham was demoted to a 1st Initiate
              and Ford was disciplined for bringing
              this matter to Klemp's attention in the
              first place. However, Klemp has always
              had a temper and been a poor sport
              and has found it difficult to let go of
              anger. This is why HK never forgave
              Darwin and didn't mention his death.
              Even to this day Klemp can't deal with
              his anger and tends to hold onto grudges.

              What's really amusing is that Klemp took
              the bait in regards to Graham and over-
              reacted as Ford surmised he would. If
              Klemp had just ignored it or said that
              Graham was mistaken with what had
              happened or that the "Rod" was a mock
              up etc. or was a symbol of something else
              blah blah blah then that would have been
              the end of it. Plus, Graham was a bit out-
              of-balance to begin with so no harm no foul.
              But, that's not how it played out because
              Klemp is a Spiritual fraud and conman much
              like his Christian counterparts are of course.

              Prometheus

              etznab wrote:

              A lot of religious dogma consists of legends,
              myths and fables. IMO.

              Any fables included in the Eckankar dogma
              prior to the current leadership could be hard
              to extract from official dogma. IMO. Granted
              they would be well known via books & talks
              over the years. And they could be believed -
              even literally - by hundreds, or thousands of
              people.

              Here is something the current leader said in
              the early 1980's after becoming the L.E.M.

              "Paul [Paul Twitchell] encouraged people to
              read The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad and make their
              own study. He never said to take the words as
              holy, as the last word. You take the words and
              check out the teachings from within. You ask:
              Does this work for me or doesn't it? You have
              to know. [....]"

              http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/writings.html#ideal

              This was around the time where Harold Klemp
              started talking about Death of an Ideal.

              If a person turns to the introduction section for
              The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, Vol. 1, they can read
              what Paul Twitchell said, compare it with what
              Harold Klemp said, and judge for theirself.

              IMO, fables abound in the Eckankar writings.
              Even in the Shariyat. The challenge comes if
              a person wants to know fact from fiction. The
              creator, author necessary to determine where
              it came from.

              Paul Twitchell was already deceased by the
              time I ever heard of Eckankar. And after him
              Darwin Gross was sent packing (iow). The
              wife of them both is where? I don't know. So
              the people who originally crafted the legends,
              myth, fables, etc., into "Eckankar" writings
              (and those who knew about the crafting) are
              not easy to come by, if you ask me. Neither
              are the original manuscripts and early books
              by Paul Twitchell & Eckankar.

              This is what is necessary, though, for a true
              record of fabrications (IMO). And even after
              the eye-witnesses, or those in the know are
              summoned, things would depend on whether
              they told the truth about what they know!

              Will it ever happen? Will religions (including
              "Eckankar") admit where the fictional parts
              of their teachings came from? Separating
              fact from fiction (with clarity), for the benefit
              of all members who desire the truth? Will we
              ever see the old original manuscripts?

              What happens when the "creators" - and no
              matter who they are - What happens when
              some of the material was borrowed from an-
              other source? Another who borrowed it from
              another before them? And on and on? with
              each writer / religion changing the story at
              will? How does locate the truth in that case?
              Via imagination? :) :) :)

              So not all of the stories are traceable to orig-
              inal sources. IMO. However, many of them
              are. Especially considering a young vs. old
              religion.

              Add to this all of the writers adding more
              "fabulous" material to the history of religion,
              the spin-off groups, etc. etc. and it becomes
              a real miasma.






              prometheus wrote:
              Hello and welcome to the group,

              First, I don't believe in demonic possession.
              This link was put up because it's another
              perspective of Eckankar. Take it with a grain
              of salt. But, the article does bring up some
              interesting topics and perspectives.

              For one thing it mentions that Darwin Gross
              was Klemp's (our) Master for ten years and
              yet his name is/was forbidden to speak. Plus,
              Klemp never mentioned Gross' death, although,
              he was an ECK Master, passed Harry the Rod,
              and was the 972nd (2nd) LEM, thus, making
              HK the 973rd (3rd) LEM.

              Anyway, why pick and choose this one article?
              How about the other Messages and dialogue?
              Did you read the FILES or look at the other LINKS?

              When you've looked at a few these other sources
              of information perhaps you can pose some questions
              pertaining to what we've written or commented upon?

              BTW-Mahanta means "missionary head." It was
              an obscure word that Twit found and decided
              to use for his newly created title.

              I didn't read the entire article of "The Dark Side
              of Eckankar" because much of it, IMO, is some
              sort of a fanatical exaggeration. Eckankar is
              merely a fraud and another religious scam for
              weak minded individuals and needs no "demonizing."
              The Truth is Klemp's real enemy, but who can
              disprove religious B.S. when people desperately
              need to believe. Everyone needs hope, but religions
              abuse and distort for profit and power.

              What do you think of that Negative Atom/Battery
              excuse as to why females can't become the LEM?
              Isn't this another silly excuse to keep women in
              their place? Sure! And, yet, look at how stupid this
              ekplanation is... but it's accepted. What else is a
              lie? Actually, everything!

              Prometheus

              Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
              >
              > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those
              of you who are
              > searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for
              sharing your
              > findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the
              "light"Â of critical
              > thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar. I am
              not here to
              > defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues. We are
              all
              > affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
              have allot to
              > bring to the table.
              > Â
              > I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique
              used in this paper
              > called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links"
              in this web
              > site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of
              challenge because I'd
              > raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this
              paper as
              > well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be
              painted with
              > complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of
              critical
              > thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being
              completely objective.
              > For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack
              ECKankar in this
              > paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they
              originated.
              > Â
              > I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure
              is overdo
              > within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is
              based on the
              > facts. I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I
              don't think
              > the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within
              one religious
              > belief system and exchange them for another in the name of
              critical thinking. Do
              > you?
            • dianastanley43
              Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from personal
              Message 6 of 24 , Feb 13, 2011
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                Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time. If it is hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew and was their experience I also say.
                Diana Stanley

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Rosemarie Bucci <rblustar@...> wrote:
                >
                > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who are
                > searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
                > findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
                > thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar. I am not here to
                > defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues. We are all
                > affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we have allot to
                > bring to the table.
                >  
                > I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
                > called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
                > site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because I'd
                > raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
                > well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
                > complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
                > thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely objective.
                > For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
                > paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
                >  
                > I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
                > within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on the
                > facts. I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
                > the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
                > belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking. Do
                > you?
                >
                >
                >
                > ____________________________________________________________________________________
                > Looking for earth-friendly autos?
                > Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.
                > http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
                >
              • prometheus_973
                Hello Rosemarie, There will be no email debate or ekplanation of this article. I don t agree with it entirely, but there are real facts and evidence,
                Message 7 of 24 , Feb 13, 2011
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                  Hello Rosemarie,
                  There will be no email debate or ekplanation
                  of this article. I don't agree with it entirely,
                  but there are real facts and evidence, elsewhere,
                  that shows Eckankar is "dark and fear based."

                  After all, Klemp was/is the real "Black Magician"
                  versus Darwin Gross.

                  Read Chapter 7 of "Soul Travelers of the Far
                  Country," if you can find the book, and you
                  will see Klemp's ego speaking and how that
                  he repeatedly states that he worked in a Sound
                  Proof Dark Room at the ESC. And, it was Klemp's
                  idea for Darwin to meet with him, in private,
                  in the Sound Proof Dark Room (in the photo
                  department) where Klemp worked daily. Darwin
                  "hesitated" [pg.409 Autobiography of a Modern
                  Prophet] to meet there when Klemp suggested
                  that they should talk in private in the Dark Room
                  that was also Sound Proofed (by the last building
                  owner). Thus, it was symbolic that the ECK (Light
                  & Sound) was Not present during the discussion
                  of Klemp's transition to become the 973rd LEM.
                  It's absence, the ECK, was due to Klemp and Not
                  to Darwin. Thus, Klemp was looking into the mirror
                  when he, later, referred to Darwin as being the
                  Black Magician. And, not being able to forgive
                  Darwin for his imperfections, even after all of
                  these years, is more proof that Klemp is holding
                  onto Negativity and this is evidence that he is
                  of the KAL and is a Liar, Trickster, Deceiver,
                  and, thus, a Black Magician!

                  Most of the "fear" inside Eckankar comes via
                  the RESA structure. ECKists fear that they can
                  be Black Listed on Initiations by giving their
                  real opinions and impressions of Klemp's
                  articles and of the strict Guidelines they are
                  to follow without question. They can't criticize
                  (even constructively) because this is seen as
                  negativity and that is of the KAL. Except, they
                  forget, the KAL is the ruler of the Lower Planes
                  (assigned by Sugmad) and Eckankar is a 1st
                  Physical Plane religion/organization and is
                  based upon, written, Mental Plane books,
                  talks, rules & laws, guidelines, discourses,
                  etc.

                  Plus, "questions" are also discouraged as well.
                  ECKists are to take it to the "inner" if they have
                  too many questions, but the Catch-22 is that
                  their "inner (Soul) answers" have to comply with
                  the Lower Plane outer limitations of the EK Dogma,
                  the scrutiny of the RESA, and of the EK Guidelines.
                  Basically, an ECKist (Soul) cannot have an "official"
                  opinion or a "valid" spiritual experience (that can
                  be shared in public), unless, Klemp gives his verbal
                  or written approval. As I pointed out before, look
                  at what happened to Graham. He had a dream where
                  a Silent One showed up and Graham HUed to verify
                  that this was a Silent One and not an Astral entity
                  playing tricks upon him. The Silent One passed the
                  HU test and told Graham his name and then allowed
                  Graham to hold the Rod of ECK Power to see how it
                  felt. However, Klemp had a problem with this "dream"
                  and felt threatened by this new Third Initiate. LOL!
                  Thus, Klemp demoted Graham to a 1st Initiate for
                  sharing his "dream" with others! Graham wasn't trying
                  to take over or to challenge Klemp... it was just
                  a dream! It wasn't his fault for having such a dream
                  was it? What if other ECKists had a similar dream?
                  Now, they all know Not to share it, don't they, for fear
                  of being demoted!


                  Prometheus

                  starshine wrote:

                  I recently read "The Dark Side of ECKankar" from your web site. Needless to say
                  I was shocked because I am currently an ECKist. I'm interested to know why the
                  information presented was concluded as it was in representation of something so
                  dark, and fear based. These are pretty serious allegations.

                  I'd like for you to reach out to me via email because I'm interested in further
                  investigation but only if that is acceptable to you. I'd like to stick to the
                  facts and evidence.
                • Rosemarie Bucci
                  Hi Diana, I ve had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this path. I have read David Lane s book and Ford Johnson s book as
                  Message 8 of 24 , Feb 14, 2011
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                    Hi Diana,
                    I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth is truth and will always be the truth.
                     
                    I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember, we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
                     
                    I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must be brave and remain in truth.
                    Thank you for getting back to me.
                    Rosemarie


                    TV dinner still cooling?
                    Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.
                  • prometheus_973
                    Hello Rosemarie, I am a seeker of Truth as well. And yes, this article on The Dark Side of Eckankar is inaccurate, but there is a dark side to Eckankar and
                    Message 9 of 24 , Feb 15, 2011
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hello Rosemarie,
                      I am a seeker of Truth as well.
                      And yes, this article on "The Dark
                      Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
                      there is a dark side to Eckankar and
                      there is also fear.

                      I find it interesting that you've
                      read (and I assume have contemplated
                      upon) David Lane's research as well as
                      Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
                      and have, still, remained an ECKist.

                      What happened to your "critical thinking?"
                      Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
                      you agree with some of it but not all of
                      it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
                      I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
                      isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
                      what they believe than any other religion
                      they've found. Is that the case with you?

                      I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
                      book, threw it away (because of the bad
                      vibes), and then placed themselves upon
                      pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
                      and talk Eckists through their doubts and
                      concerns.

                      You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
                      not all truth is the same. That's why there
                      are so many churches. People are social
                      animals and tend to seek out others with
                      similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
                      to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
                      to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
                      and a test for Soul.

                      I also got the impression that you don't
                      participate much within the RESA structure.
                      Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
                      Do you know that you have to watch what
                      you say? You've observed and learned that
                      correct? You do care about being promoted
                      to that next initiation right?

                      Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
                      take on the subjects that we've been discussing
                      here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
                      lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
                      for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
                      Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
                      when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
                      "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
                      detectors just for his talk?

                      You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues. 
                      We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
                      at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."

                      BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
                      read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?

                      Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
                      the table.

                      Prometheus

                      rosemarie wrote:
                      Hi Diana,

                      I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth is truth and will always be the truth.

                      I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember, we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.

                      I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must be brave and remain in truth.

                      Thank you for getting back to me.
                      Rosemarie


                      dianastanley wrote:

                      Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time. If it is hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew and was their experience I also say.

                      Diana Stanley

                      Rosemarie Bucci wrote:

                      I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who are
                      searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
                      findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
                      thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.

                      I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues. 
                      We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
                      have allot to bring to the table.
                       
                      I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
                      called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
                      site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because I'd
                      raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
                      well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
                      complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
                      thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely objective.
                      For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
                      paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
                       
                      I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
                      within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on the
                      facts.

                      I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
                      the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
                      belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking.
                      Do you?
                    • dianastanley43
                      Rosemarie you are quite right. I started with Eckankar and ended up studing quantum Physics What I finally came to the conclusion of was if you were sitting in
                      Message 10 of 24 , Feb 17, 2011
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                        Rosemarie you are quite right. I started with Eckankar and ended up studing quantum Physics What I finally came to the conclusion of was if you were sitting in you living room you didn't need a spiritual path to find your living room. It has not been an easy journy as I was loath to give up the idea of the mystical and magical and I traveled many paths in the 30 yrs after leaving Eckankar. One day I read a quote that changed my belief system of years. "God did'nt create the universe God became the universe. It's interesting that when the time is right I might understand something that a few yrs earlier would not have ment anything.
                        Diana

                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Rosemarie Bucci <rblustar@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi Diana,
                        > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this
                        > path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been
                        > to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that
                        > honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth
                        > is truth and will always be the truth.
                        >
                        >  
                        > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we
                        > follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching
                        > which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember,
                        > we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to
                        > bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
                        >
                        >  
                        > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts
                        > sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must
                        > be brave and remain in truth.
                        > Thank you for gettingback to me.
                        > Rosemarie
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ____________________________________________________________________________________
                        > It's here! Your new message!
                        > Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar.
                        > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/
                        >
                      • Avonblue
                        Diana and All, I came to eckankar back in the 70 s because I felt religion was an abomination and the lure of free exploration of our spiritual self was truly
                        Message 11 of 24 , Feb 18, 2011
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                          Diana and All,

                          I came to eckankar back in the 70's because I felt religion was an abomination and the lure of free exploration of our spiritual self was truly revolutionary. Eckankar eventually failed to be the magical mystical carpet ride it was purported to be but instead a rehash and reinvention of eastern and western mumbo jumbo recreated by a charlatan. I too have explored quantum physics and especially the advances in neuroscience over the past several years and have come to the belief that "spirituality" and for the that matter "god" is nothing more than misunderstood and undiscovered as of yet science.

                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "dianastanley43" <dianastanley43@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Rosemarie you are quite right. I started with Eckankar and ended up studing quantum Physics What I finally came to the conclusion of was if you were sitting in you living room you didn't need a spiritual path to find your living room. It has not been an easy journy as I was loath to give up the idea of the mystical and magical and I traveled many paths in the 30 yrs after leaving Eckankar. One day I read a quote that changed my belief system of years. "God did'nt create the universe God became the universe. It's interesting that when the time is right I might understand something that a few yrs earlier would not have ment anything.
                          > Diana
                          >
                          > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Rosemarie Bucci <rblustar@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Hi Diana,
                          > > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this
                          > > path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been
                          > > to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that
                          > > honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth
                          > > is truth and will always be the truth.
                          > >
                          > >  
                          > > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we
                          > > follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching
                          > > which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember,
                          > > we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to
                          > > bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
                          > >
                          > >  
                          > > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts
                          > > sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must
                          > > be brave and remain in truth.
                          > > Thank you for gettingback to me.
                          > > Rosemarie
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ____________________________________________________________________________________
                          > > It's here! Your new message!
                          > > Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar.
                          > > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/
                          > >
                          >
                        • prometheus_973
                          Hello Avonblue and All, I was first introduced to the quantum physics/mechanics/ field theory scam via Maharishi of TM fame. Adam Dreamhealer and many other
                          Message 12 of 24 , Feb 21, 2011
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hello Avonblue and All,
                            I was first introduced to the
                            "quantum physics/mechanics/
                            field theory" scam via Maharishi
                            of TM fame. Adam Dreamhealer
                            and many other scammers have
                            used and abused this theory
                            to explain how their brand of
                            whatever works. I'm surprised
                            that Klemp hasn't used this hook
                            in order to combine science and
                            spirituality.

                            It is quite interesting how Klemp
                            gradually became "the" God/Mahanta.

                            And, even though he has stated,
                            "don't worship me" he has Eckists
                            stare at his picture and chant HU.

                            Plus, he has them dream of him
                            and beseech him with requests,
                            questions, help, protection, and
                            for healing. So, HK instructs Eckists
                            to pray to him (the Mahanta), but
                            says he's not to be worshipped.
                            How's that work? Of course he's
                            worshipped!

                            And, who or what is "worshipped" by
                            Eckists at ECK Worship Services (EWS)?
                            Is it the ECK? Klemp claims to be that
                            too, or is it the Mahanta or both?
                            So, on the "outer" Klemp is the leader
                            (LEM) of Eckankar and on the "inner"
                            he claims to be the ECK and the Mahanta.
                            But wouldn't he, also, be the ECK and
                            the Mahanta on the "outer" as well?
                            This is where/how Klemp tricks ECKists
                            into worshipping him. He's everything
                            and claims to be levels higher than the
                            God that other religions worship. Yet,
                            just like Twitchell fooled people, Klemp
                            does the same. Telling ECKists not to
                            worship him is a disclaimer so that he
                            can avoid responsibility.

                            It's really laughable that older ECKists
                            turned their backs on the religion of
                            their parents because "God" never answered
                            their prayers, etc. Now, they've substituted
                            Klemp for Jesus or Moses or who and what
                            ever. How stupid is that!

                            Strange that Sugmad isn't worshipped
                            at these EWS events and neither is God.
                            God is discussed some, but a real Eckist
                            knows that "God" is code for the Mahanta,
                            or the KAL, it depends. So, who/what is
                            worshipped? The ECK? That's Klemp too!
                            Klemp, in one way or the other is always
                            the main focus! Really, who does the Mahanta
                            look like? And, yet, do Eckists really think
                            about what they are really doing when they
                            worship, pray HU, contemplate upon, dream,
                            and beseech "the" Mahanta/ECK (Klemp)
                            for help? Apparently not!

                            Prometheus


                            Avonblue wrote:
                            Diana and All,

                            I came to eckankar back in the 70's because I felt religion was an abomination
                            and the lure of free exploration of our spiritual self was truly revolutionary.
                            Eckankar eventually failed to be the magical mystical carpet ride it was
                            purported to be but instead a rehash and reinvention of eastern and western
                            mumbo jumbo recreated by a charlatan. I too have explored quantum physics and
                            especially the advances in neuroscience over the past several years and have
                            come to the belief that "spirituality" and for the that matter "god" is nothing
                            more than misunderstood and undiscovered as of yet science.

                            dianastanley43"
                            dianastanley43@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Rosemarie you are quite right. I started with Eckankar and ended up studing
                            quantum Physics What I finally came to the conclusion of was if you were sitting
                            in you living room you didn't need a spiritual path to find your living room. It
                            has not been an easy journy as I was loath to give up the idea of the mystical
                            and magical and I traveled many paths in the 30 yrs after leaving Eckankar. One
                            day I read a quote that changed my belief system of years. "God did'nt create
                            the universe God became the universe. It's interesting that when the time is
                            right I might understand something that a few yrs earlier would not have ment
                            anything.
                            > Diana
                            >
                            Rosemarie Bucci <rblustar wrote:

                            Hi Diana,
                            I've had lots of experiences before
                            my journey into eckankar and while on
                            this path. I have read David Lane's book
                            and Ford Johnson's book as well.

                            I've been to eck satsangs, eck book
                            discussions and eck seminars also.
                            I agree that honesty is essential the
                            name of GOD on all levels.

                            I also understand that truth is truth
                            and will always be the truth.

                            I think it's important to remain open
                            and honest regardless of what path we
                            follow and to be there for one another
                            as much as we can. We are all searching
                            which is wonderful.

                            Therefore, we are not wrong in doing
                            so and let's remember, we all have each
                            other to try to put all this in perspective.
                            We have so much to bring to one another
                            on our many different levels of knowledge
                            and experience.

                            I know we'll get through this some day
                            and be stronger for it even if it hurts
                            sometimes. If we are to stand before
                            GOD and try to journey back to GOD,
                            we must be brave and remain in truth.



                            Prometheus: But there is no Truth
                            in Eckankar nor in any religion. It's
                            desperation, fear, lies, myth (stories),
                            imagination, pretend, and delusion!



                            Thank you for getting back to me.
                            Rosemarie
                          • dianastanley43
                            ... Diana
                            Message 13 of 24 , Feb 21, 2011
                            • 0 Attachment
                              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                              > Paul commissioned me to do a sculpture of him so the Eckist would have something to focus on,I quess it was supposed to compete with jesus on the cross, any way he died befor it was finished and the stature fell apart befor I could make a mold of it. I thought Paul destroyed when he died as a lot of hi's at the time felt that. Acually it was bad craftsmanship on my part. I have to say it was pretty neat, he was sitting on a stool looking holy.
                              Diana
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Hello Avonblue and All,
                              > I was first introduced to the
                              > "quantum physics/mechanics/
                              > field theory" scam via Maharishi
                              > of TM fame. Adam Dreamhealer
                              > and many other scammers have
                              > used and abused this theory
                              > to explain how their brand of
                              > whatever works. I'm surprised
                              > that Klemp hasn't used this hook
                              > in order to combine science and
                              > spirituality.
                              >
                              > It is quite interesting how Klemp
                              > gradually became "the" God/Mahanta.
                              >
                              > And, even though he has stated,
                              > "don't worship me" he has Eckists
                              > stare at his picture and chant HU.
                              >
                              > Plus, he has them dream of him
                              > and beseech him with requests,
                              > questions, help, protection, and
                              > for healing. So, HK instructs Eckists
                              > to pray to him (the Mahanta), but
                              > says he's not to be worshipped.
                              > How's that work? Of course he's
                              > worshipped!
                              >
                              > And, who or what is "worshipped" by
                              > Eckists at ECK Worship Services (EWS)?
                              > Is it the ECK? Klemp claims to be that
                              > too, or is it the Mahanta or both?
                              > So, on the "outer" Klemp is the leader
                              > (LEM) of Eckankar and on the "inner"
                              > he claims to be the ECK and the Mahanta.
                              > But wouldn't he, also, be the ECK and
                              > the Mahanta on the "outer" as well?
                              > This is where/how Klemp tricks ECKists
                              > into worshipping him. He's everything
                              > and claims to be levels higher than the
                              > God that other religions worship. Yet,
                              > just like Twitchell fooled people, Klemp
                              > does the same. Telling ECKists not to
                              > worship him is a disclaimer so that he
                              > can avoid responsibility.
                              >
                              > It's really laughable that older ECKists
                              > turned their backs on the religion of
                              > their parents because "God" never answered
                              > their prayers, etc. Now, they've substituted
                              > Klemp for Jesus or Moses or who and what
                              > ever. How stupid is that!
                              >
                              > Strange that Sugmad isn't worshipped
                              > at these EWS events and neither is God.
                              > God is discussed some, but a real Eckist
                              > knows that "God" is code for the Mahanta,
                              > or the KAL, it depends. So, who/what is
                              > worshipped? The ECK? That's Klemp too!
                              > Klemp, in one way or the other is always
                              > the main focus! Really, who does the Mahanta
                              > look like? And, yet, do Eckists really think
                              > about what they are really doing when they
                              > worship, pray HU, contemplate upon, dream,
                              > and beseech "the" Mahanta/ECK (Klemp)
                              > for help? Apparently not!
                              >
                              > Prometheus
                              >
                              >
                              > Avonblue wrote:
                              > Diana and All,
                              >
                              > I came to eckankar back in the 70's because I felt religion was an abomination
                              > and the lure of free exploration of our spiritual self was truly revolutionary.
                              > Eckankar eventually failed to be the magical mystical carpet ride it was
                              > purported to be but instead a rehash and reinvention of eastern and western
                              > mumbo jumbo recreated by a charlatan. I too have explored quantum physics and
                              > especially the advances in neuroscience over the past several years and have
                              > come to the belief that "spirituality" and for the that matter "god" is nothing
                              > more than misunderstood and undiscovered as of yet science.
                              >
                              > dianastanley43"
                              > dianastanley43@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Rosemarie you are quite right. I started with Eckankar and ended up studing
                              > quantum Physics What I finally came to the conclusion of was if you were sitting
                              > in you living room you didn't need a spiritual path to find your living room. It
                              > has not been an easy journy as I was loath to give up the idea of the mystical
                              > and magical and I traveled many paths in the 30 yrs after leaving Eckankar. One
                              > day I read a quote that changed my belief system of years. "God did'nt create
                              > the universe God became the universe. It's interesting that when the time is
                              > right I might understand something that a few yrs earlier would not have ment
                              > anything.
                              > > Diana
                              > >
                              > Rosemarie Bucci <rblustar wrote:
                              >
                              > Hi Diana,
                              > I've had lots of experiences before
                              > my journey into eckankar and while on
                              > this path. I have read David Lane's book
                              > and Ford Johnson's book as well.
                              >
                              > I've been to eck satsangs, eck book
                              > discussions and eck seminars also.
                              > I agree that honesty is essential the
                              > name of GOD on all levels.
                              >
                              > I also understand that truth is truth
                              > and will always be the truth.
                              >
                              > I think it's important to remain open
                              > and honest regardless of what path we
                              > follow and to be there for one another
                              > as much as we can. We are all searching
                              > which is wonderful.
                              >
                              > Therefore, we are not wrong in doing
                              > so and let's remember, we all have each
                              > other to try to put all this in perspective.
                              > We have so much to bring to one another
                              > on our many different levels of knowledge
                              > and experience.
                              >
                              > I know we'll get through this some day
                              > and be stronger for it even if it hurts
                              > sometimes. If we are to stand before
                              > GOD and try to journey back to GOD,
                              > we must be brave and remain in truth.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Prometheus: But there is no Truth
                              > in Eckankar nor in any religion. It's
                              > desperation, fear, lies, myth (stories),
                              > imagination, pretend, and delusion!
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Thank you for getting back to me.
                              > Rosemarie
                              >
                            • starshine917
                              Hello prometheus_973: Remember me? Wow, it s so weird that I d be writing to you now….exactly, one year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I
                              Message 14 of 24 , Sep 4, 2011
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Hello prometheus_973:
                                Remember me? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writing to you now….exactly, one year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I didn't plan it like this but somehow it just worked out this way.

                                I recently left Eckankar. And, you were right….I read David Lane's paper as well as Ford Johnson's "Confessions of a God Seeker" And, for some reason at that time I remained in the group tying to focus on the so-called positive side of the Eckankar, the hypnotic rederick that goes nowhere while ignoring the facts. I then started to take a good look at Harold…looked into his "dark" eyes and listened to his figure of monotone speak and I realized it was very hypnotic, and at the same time very inviting. I wondered who or what was inside of those dark eyes….And they seem to always come as "the light". Yes, the "angel of light".

                                I was in a satsang at that time and I found it disturbing more and more that his same picture of himself, which by the way never changes, the one and only picture that has to be present at all Eckankar meetings was never questioned by it's members. All the books we studied were written by him and only him !!! And how some members were "higher" than others depending on their "initiation" number, even if these people knew absolutely nothing except what was written in the books of Eckankar. Some of these people seemed to have anger issues too which didn't seem to fit the spiritual portrait of a saint they painted. I started to feel uncomfortable around these people cause they seemed more and more to me like mind-controlled slaves. And, they too could see that I was thinking and starting to pull away because I no longer looked to them without question, with blind authority.

                                So, it wasn't a good mix to say the very least. I finally had it out with one of the members and I realized that I already left…In my heart, I choose to follow truth and I also realized that that in Eckankar, I was being deceived. And I realized that I couldn't have it both ways. I had to pick my convictions and go with them. After all, why would I go against my own self, and what was in my heart ?

                                In Eckankar it is taught to open and follow your heart but yet, if you dare open your mind and begin to ask challenging questions, you're in trouble because these people think the Mahanta in Eckankar is above all else and should never be questioned, and your heart should be open to "him", the self appointed master, Harold Klemp. Even if the members of Eckankar are not honest with themselves enough to admit it consciously. On a subconscious level, they know better !!!

                                The shame of it all is that this deception is done in the name of an unconditional open heart to give love, which it is true, a part of GOD's flow but where's the truth ? What happened to that part of GOD ??? I guess it got lost in the sea of love…


                                Hello prometheus_973;
                                Remember me ? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writ

                                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Hello Rosemarie,
                                > I am a seeker of Truth as well.
                                > And yes, this article on "The Dark
                                > Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
                                > there is a dark side to Eckankar and
                                > there is also fear.
                                >
                                > I find it interesting that you've
                                > read (and I assume have contemplated
                                > upon) David Lane's research as well as
                                > Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
                                > and have, still, remained an ECKist.
                                >
                                > What happened to your "critical thinking?"
                                > Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
                                > you agree with some of it but not all of
                                > it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
                                > I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
                                > isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
                                > what they believe than any other religion
                                > they've found. Is that the case with you?
                                >
                                > I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
                                > book, threw it away (because of the bad
                                > vibes), and then placed themselves upon
                                > pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
                                > and talk Eckists through their doubts and
                                > concerns.
                                >
                                > You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
                                > not all truth is the same. That's why there
                                > are so many churches. People are social
                                > animals and tend to seek out others with
                                > similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
                                > to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
                                > to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
                                > and a test for Soul.
                                >
                                > I also got the impression that you don't
                                > participate much within the RESA structure.
                                > Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
                                > Do you know that you have to watch what
                                > you say? You've observed and learned that
                                > correct? You do care about being promoted
                                > to that next initiation right?
                                >
                                > Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
                                > take on the subjects that we've been discussing
                                > here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
                                > lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
                                > for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
                                > Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
                                > when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
                                > "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
                                > detectors just for his talk?
                                >
                                > You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues. 
                                > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
                                > at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."
                                >
                                > BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
                                > read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?
                                >
                                > Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
                                > the table.
                                >
                                > Prometheus
                                >
                                > rosemarie wrote:
                                > Hi Diana,
                                >
                                > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth is truth and will always be the truth.
                                >
                                > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember, we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
                                >
                                > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must be brave and remain in truth.
                                >
                                > Thank you for getting back to me.
                                > Rosemarie
                                >
                                >
                                > dianastanley wrote:
                                >
                                > Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time. If it is hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew and was their experience I also say.
                                >
                                > Diana Stanley
                                >
                                > Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
                                >
                                > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who are
                                > searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
                                > findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
                                > thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.
                                >
                                > I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues. 
                                > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
                                > have allot to bring to the table.
                                >  
                                > I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
                                > called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
                                > site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because I'd
                                > raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
                                > well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
                                > complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
                                > thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely objective.
                                > For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
                                > paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
                                >  
                                > I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
                                > within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on the
                                > facts.
                                >
                                > I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
                                > the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
                                > belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking.
                                > Do you?
                                >
                              • prometheus_973
                                Hello All, Just thought I d share some additional comments to what Starshine wrote. starshine917 wrote: Hello prometheus_973: Remember me? Wow, it s so weird
                                Message 15 of 24 , Sep 11, 2011
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Hello All,
                                  Just thought I'd share some
                                  additional comments to what
                                  Starshine wrote.

                                  starshine917 wrote:
                                  Hello prometheus_973:
                                  Remember me? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writing to you now….exactly, one
                                  year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I didn't plan it like
                                  this but somehow it just worked out this way.


                                  ME: Yes, it takes awhile for the
                                  realization to occur and sink in
                                  even after one decides to look
                                  for and analyze it via critical
                                  thinking while giving HK's/PT's
                                  redundant words a litmus test
                                  for truthiness.


                                  I recently left Eckankar. And, you were right….I read David Lane's paper as well
                                  as Ford Johnson's "Confessions of a God Seeker" And, for some reason at that
                                  time I remained in the group tying to focus on the so-called positive side of
                                  the Eckankar, the hypnotic rederick that goes nowhere while ignoring the facts.
                                  I then started to take a good look at Harold…looked into his "dark" eyes and
                                  listened to his figure of monotone speak and I realized it was very hypnotic,
                                  and at the same time very inviting. I wondered who or what was inside of those
                                  dark eyes….And they seem to always come as "the light". Yes, the "angel of
                                  light".


                                  ME: Klemp is no angel of light! He spreads
                                  darkness and delusion while denying Eckists
                                  their true nature as Soul. He gives (hope),
                                  promises (higher plane initiations), and then
                                  takes it all away (hope of ever getting beyond
                                  the 7th initiation while in this lifetime, unless,
                                  one pretends or imagines they are higher
                                  via vanity and frustration).


                                  I was in a satsang at that time and I found it disturbing more and more that his
                                  same picture of himself, which by the way never changes, the one and only
                                  picture that has to be present at all Eckankar meetings was never questioned by
                                  it's members. All the books we studied were written by him and only him !!! And
                                  how some members were "higher" than others depending on their "initiation"
                                  number, even if these people knew absolutely nothing except what was written in
                                  the books of Eckankar. Some of these people seemed to have anger issues too
                                  which didn't seem to fit the spiritual portrait of a saint they painted. I
                                  started to feel uncomfortable around these people cause they seemed more and
                                  more to me like mind-controlled slaves. And, they too could see that I was
                                  thinking and starting to pull away because I no longer looked to them without
                                  question, with blind authority.


                                  ME: Yes, that more youthful looking
                                  Official Picture of Klemp's is a vain act,
                                  but is never questioned because to do
                                  so would get one Black Listed on initiations.
                                  Those longtime Eckists who are part
                                  of the RESA Hierarchy know what I'm
                                  saying. Some H.I.s are fearful/cautious
                                  of the spies that report to the RESA and
                                  only share certain things (anti-Guideline
                                  comments, etc.) around those H.I.s they
                                  can trust.


                                  BTW- There are some books, that Klemp
                                  has approved of, written by non-Eck
                                  authors that Eckists can read. However,
                                  the Eckist must always focus upon the
                                  ECK or Mahanta when reading these
                                  books and, thus, give up free, unfettered,
                                  thought. Some of these books are
                                  recommended to those in leadership
                                  positions and are business oriented.



                                  So, it wasn't a good mix to say the very least. I finally had it out with one of
                                  the members and I realized that I already left…In my heart, I choose to follow
                                  truth and I also realized that that in Eckankar, I was being deceived. And I
                                  realized that I couldn't have it both ways. I had to pick my convictions and go
                                  with them. After all, why would I go against my own self, and what was in my
                                  heart?


                                  ME: It's the easy way to place an
                                  authority figure on a shelf higher
                                  than yourself. Less thinking and
                                  effort is involved when blind trust
                                  takes over. It's lazy but that's what
                                  people do. Look at how we allow
                                  the politicians to say and do as
                                  they please without taking responsibility.
                                  With Klemp, it's always the chela's
                                  fault and never his own! He slowed-
                                  down initiations in 1985, but doesn't
                                  need to explain why these haven't
                                  sped up because he answers to
                                  nobody else, except, Sugmad right?


                                  In Eckankar it is taught to open and follow your heart but yet, if you dare open
                                  your mind and begin to ask challenging questions, you're in trouble because
                                  these people think the Mahanta in Eckankar is above all else and should never be
                                  questioned, and your heart should be open to "him", the self appointed master,
                                  Harold Klemp. Even if the members of Eckankar are not honest with themselves
                                  enough to admit it consciously. On a subconscious level, they know better !!!

                                  ME: That following your heart
                                  thing is more about the Astral
                                  Heart Chakra... which is lower
                                  than the Third Eye or Tisra Til!
                                  Why didn't Klemp at least use
                                  the (Astral) Crown Chakra when
                                  having Eckists HU? After 30 years
                                  and HK still has Eckists HUing
                                  and focusing upon the 6th,
                                  Third Eye, Astral Chakra versus
                                  the 7th Crown Chakra!


                                  The shame of it all is that this deception is done in the name of an
                                  unconditional open heart to give love, which it is true, a part of GOD's flow
                                  but where's the truth ? What happened to that part of GOD ??? I guess it got
                                  lost in the sea of love…


                                  ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                                  "common language" but it's not
                                  quite true. ECK is not a common
                                  word and neither is Mahanta.
                                  And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                                  to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                                  others worship or think he is speaking
                                  about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                                  use the word GOD when it's not
                                  who or what they are referring
                                  to. It's like comparing apples
                                  to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                                  start out, and are trained, to be
                                  deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                                  fact alone makes Eckankar look
                                  very cult like. But, why the lie?
                                  The "common language" excuse
                                  doesn't hold water but Eckists
                                  can't question this underhanded
                                  practice or else they can have
                                  their position taken away and
                                  be Black Listed and shunned.

                                  Prometheus



                                  Hello prometheus_973;
                                  Remember me ? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writ


                                  <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hello Rosemarie,
                                  > I am a seeker of Truth as well.
                                  > And yes, this article on "The Dark
                                  > Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
                                  > there is a dark side to Eckankar and
                                  > there is also fear.
                                  >
                                  > I find it interesting that you've
                                  > read (and I assume have contemplated
                                  > upon) David Lane's research as well as
                                  > Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
                                  > and have, still, remained an ECKist.
                                  >
                                  > What happened to your "critical thinking?"
                                  > Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
                                  > you agree with some of it but not all of
                                  > it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
                                  > I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
                                  > isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
                                  > what they believe than any other religion
                                  > they've found. Is that the case with you?
                                  >
                                  > I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
                                  > book, threw it away (because of the bad
                                  > vibes), and then placed themselves upon
                                  > pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
                                  > and talk Eckists through their doubts and
                                  > concerns.
                                  >
                                  > You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
                                  > not all truth is the same. That's why there
                                  > are so many churches. People are social
                                  > animals and tend to seek out others with
                                  > similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
                                  > to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
                                  > to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
                                  > and a test for Soul.
                                  >
                                  > I also got the impression that you don't
                                  > participate much within the RESA structure.
                                  > Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
                                  > Do you know that you have to watch what
                                  > you say? You've observed and learned that
                                  > correct? You do care about being promoted
                                  > to that next initiation right?
                                  >
                                  > Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
                                  > take on the subjects that we've been discussing
                                  > here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
                                  > lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
                                  > for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
                                  > Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
                                  > when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
                                  > "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
                                  > detectors just for his talk?
                                  >
                                  > You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                                  > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
                                  > at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."
                                  >
                                  > BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
                                  > read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?
                                  >
                                  > Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
                                  > the table.
                                  >
                                  > Prometheus
                                  >
                                  > rosemarie wrote:
                                  > Hi Diana,
                                  >
                                  > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this
                                  path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been
                                  to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that
                                  honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth
                                  is truth and will always be the truth.
                                  >
                                  > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we
                                  follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching
                                  which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember,
                                  we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to
                                  bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
                                  >
                                  > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts
                                  sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must
                                  be brave and remain in truth.
                                  >
                                  > Thank you for getting back to me.
                                  > Rosemarie
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > dianastanley wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any
                                  direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from
                                  personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time. If it is
                                  hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew and was their
                                  experience I also say.
                                  >
                                  > Diana Stanley
                                  >
                                  > Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who
                                  are searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
                                  findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
                                  thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.
                                  >
                                  I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                                  We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
                                  have allot to bring to the table.
                                  >
                                  I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
                                  called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
                                  site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because
                                  I'd raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
                                  well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
                                  complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
                                  thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely
                                  objective.

                                  For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
                                  paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
                                  >
                                  I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
                                  within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on
                                  the facts.
                                  >
                                  I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
                                  the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
                                  belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking.
                                  Do you?
                                • postekcon
                                  Re ... ME: Klemp likes to say he uses common language but it s not quite true. ECK is not a common word and neither is Mahanta. And, the God (Sugmad) he
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Sep 11, 2011
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Re
                                    >>>
                                    ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                                    "common language" but it's not
                                    quite true. ECK is not a common
                                    word and neither is Mahanta.
                                    And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                                    to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                                    others worship or think he is speaking
                                    about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                                    use the word GOD when it's not
                                    who or what they are referring
                                    to. It's like comparing apples
                                    to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                                    start out, and are trained, to be
                                    deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                                    fact alone makes Eckankar look
                                    very cult like. But, why the lie?
                                    The "common language" excuse
                                    doesn't hold water but Eckists
                                    can't question this underhanded
                                    practice or else they can have
                                    their position taken away and
                                    be Black Listed and shunned.
                                    >>>


                                    For the past ten years, I have observed this pattern.

                                    Hard working HIs (50-70yrs plus) busy putting on Intro Talks, occasionally enrolling a new recruit to ekult.

                                    However, within a year or two, the new recruit leaves ekult as nothing makes sense! Of course, the HIs, unable to look at either themselves or ekult, always blame the new recruit with comments such as lack of unfoldment etc!

                                    For the new recruit, the reason nothing makes sense, I've observed, is thus. The HIs bring the new recruit into Paul Twitchell/Darwin Gross ekult; the ekult into which they themselved were enrolled. Now this version of ekult promised it had the tools for self/god realization in this lifetime etc. However, several MW (Mystic World) issues later, the new recruit comes to understand these 'good people' lied to them!
                                    -Postekcon


                                    In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hello All,
                                    > Just thought I'd share some
                                    > additional comments to what
                                    > Starshine wrote.
                                    >
                                    > starshine917 wrote:
                                    > Hello prometheus_973:
                                    > Remember me? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writing to you now….exactly, one
                                    > year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I didn't plan it like
                                    > this but somehow it just worked out this way.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ME: Yes, it takes awhile for the
                                    > realization to occur and sink in
                                    > even after one decides to look
                                    > for and analyze it via critical
                                    > thinking while giving HK's/PT's
                                    > redundant words a litmus test
                                    > for truthiness.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I recently left Eckankar. And, you were right….I read David Lane's paper as well
                                    > as Ford Johnson's "Confessions of a God Seeker" And, for some reason at that
                                    > time I remained in the group tying to focus on the so-called positive side of
                                    > the Eckankar, the hypnotic rederick that goes nowhere while ignoring the facts.
                                    > I then started to take a good look at Harold…looked into his "dark" eyes and
                                    > listened to his figure of monotone speak and I realized it was very hypnotic,
                                    > and at the same time very inviting. I wondered who or what was inside of those
                                    > dark eyes….And they seem to always come as "the light". Yes, the "angel of
                                    > light".
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ME: Klemp is no angel of light! He spreads
                                    > darkness and delusion while denying Eckists
                                    > their true nature as Soul. He gives (hope),
                                    > promises (higher plane initiations), and then
                                    > takes it all away (hope of ever getting beyond
                                    > the 7th initiation while in this lifetime, unless,
                                    > one pretends or imagines they are higher
                                    > via vanity and frustration).
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I was in a satsang at that time and I found it disturbing more and more that his
                                    > same picture of himself, which by the way never changes, the one and only
                                    > picture that has to be present at all Eckankar meetings was never questioned by
                                    > it's members. All the books we studied were written by him and only him !!! And
                                    > how some members were "higher" than others depending on their "initiation"
                                    > number, even if these people knew absolutely nothing except what was written in
                                    > the books of Eckankar. Some of these people seemed to have anger issues too
                                    > which didn't seem to fit the spiritual portrait of a saint they painted. I
                                    > started to feel uncomfortable around these people cause they seemed more and
                                    > more to me like mind-controlled slaves. And, they too could see that I was
                                    > thinking and starting to pull away because I no longer looked to them without
                                    > question, with blind authority.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ME: Yes, that more youthful looking
                                    > Official Picture of Klemp's is a vain act,
                                    > but is never questioned because to do
                                    > so would get one Black Listed on initiations.
                                    > Those longtime Eckists who are part
                                    > of the RESA Hierarchy know what I'm
                                    > saying. Some H.I.s are fearful/cautious
                                    > of the spies that report to the RESA and
                                    > only share certain things (anti-Guideline
                                    > comments, etc.) around those H.I.s they
                                    > can trust.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > BTW- There are some books, that Klemp
                                    > has approved of, written by non-Eck
                                    > authors that Eckists can read. However,
                                    > the Eckist must always focus upon the
                                    > ECK or Mahanta when reading these
                                    > books and, thus, give up free, unfettered,
                                    > thought. Some of these books are
                                    > recommended to those in leadership
                                    > positions and are business oriented.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > So, it wasn't a good mix to say the very least. I finally had it out with one of
                                    > the members and I realized that I already left…In my heart, I choose to follow
                                    > truth and I also realized that that in Eckankar, I was being deceived. And I
                                    > realized that I couldn't have it both ways. I had to pick my convictions and go
                                    > with them. After all, why would I go against my own self, and what was in my
                                    > heart?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ME: It's the easy way to place an
                                    > authority figure on a shelf higher
                                    > than yourself. Less thinking and
                                    > effort is involved when blind trust
                                    > takes over. It's lazy but that's what
                                    > people do. Look at how we allow
                                    > the politicians to say and do as
                                    > they please without taking responsibility.
                                    > With Klemp, it's always the chela's
                                    > fault and never his own! He slowed-
                                    > down initiations in 1985, but doesn't
                                    > need to explain why these haven't
                                    > sped up because he answers to
                                    > nobody else, except, Sugmad right?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > In Eckankar it is taught to open and follow your heart but yet, if you dare open
                                    > your mind and begin to ask challenging questions, you're in trouble because
                                    > these people think the Mahanta in Eckankar is above all else and should never be
                                    > questioned, and your heart should be open to "him", the self appointed master,
                                    > Harold Klemp. Even if the members of Eckankar are not honest with themselves
                                    > enough to admit it consciously. On a subconscious level, they know better !!!
                                    >
                                    > ME: That following your heart
                                    > thing is more about the Astral
                                    > Heart Chakra... which is lower
                                    > than the Third Eye or Tisra Til!
                                    > Why didn't Klemp at least use
                                    > the (Astral) Crown Chakra when
                                    > having Eckists HU? After 30 years
                                    > and HK still has Eckists HUing
                                    > and focusing upon the 6th,
                                    > Third Eye, Astral Chakra versus
                                    > the 7th Crown Chakra!
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > The shame of it all is that this deception is done in the name of an
                                    > unconditional open heart to give love, which it is true, a part of GOD's flow
                                    > but where's the truth ? What happened to that part of GOD ??? I guess it got
                                    > lost in the sea of love…
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                                    > "common language" but it's not
                                    > quite true. ECK is not a common
                                    > word and neither is Mahanta.
                                    > And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                                    > to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                                    > others worship or think he is speaking
                                    > about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                                    > use the word GOD when it's not
                                    > who or what they are referring
                                    > to. It's like comparing apples
                                    > to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                                    > start out, and are trained, to be
                                    > deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                                    > fact alone makes Eckankar look
                                    > very cult like. But, why the lie?
                                    > The "common language" excuse
                                    > doesn't hold water but Eckists
                                    > can't question this underhanded
                                    > practice or else they can have
                                    > their position taken away and
                                    > be Black Listed and shunned.
                                    >
                                    > Prometheus
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Hello prometheus_973;
                                    > Remember me ? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writ
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Hello Rosemarie,
                                    > > I am a seeker of Truth as well.
                                    > > And yes, this article on "The Dark
                                    > > Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
                                    > > there is a dark side to Eckankar and
                                    > > there is also fear.
                                    > >
                                    > > I find it interesting that you've
                                    > > read (and I assume have contemplated
                                    > > upon) David Lane's research as well as
                                    > > Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
                                    > > and have, still, remained an ECKist.
                                    > >
                                    > > What happened to your "critical thinking?"
                                    > > Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
                                    > > you agree with some of it but not all of
                                    > > it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
                                    > > I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
                                    > > isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
                                    > > what they believe than any other religion
                                    > > they've found. Is that the case with you?
                                    > >
                                    > > I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
                                    > > book, threw it away (because of the bad
                                    > > vibes), and then placed themselves upon
                                    > > pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
                                    > > and talk Eckists through their doubts and
                                    > > concerns.
                                    > >
                                    > > You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
                                    > > not all truth is the same. That's why there
                                    > > are so many churches. People are social
                                    > > animals and tend to seek out others with
                                    > > similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
                                    > > to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
                                    > > to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
                                    > > and a test for Soul.
                                    > >
                                    > > I also got the impression that you don't
                                    > > participate much within the RESA structure.
                                    > > Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
                                    > > Do you know that you have to watch what
                                    > > you say? You've observed and learned that
                                    > > correct? You do care about being promoted
                                    > > to that next initiation right?
                                    > >
                                    > > Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
                                    > > take on the subjects that we've been discussing
                                    > > here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
                                    > > lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
                                    > > for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
                                    > > Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
                                    > > when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
                                    > > "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
                                    > > detectors just for his talk?
                                    > >
                                    > > You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                                    > > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
                                    > > at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."
                                    > >
                                    > > BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
                                    > > read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?
                                    > >
                                    > > Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
                                    > > the table.
                                    > >
                                    > > Prometheus
                                    > >
                                    > > rosemarie wrote:
                                    > > Hi Diana,
                                    > >
                                    > > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this
                                    > path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been
                                    > to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that
                                    > honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth
                                    > is truth and will always be the truth.
                                    > >
                                    > > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we
                                    > follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching
                                    > which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember,
                                    > we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to
                                    > bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
                                    > >
                                    > > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts
                                    > sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must
                                    > be brave and remain in truth.
                                    > >
                                    > > Thank you for getting back to me.
                                    > > Rosemarie
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > dianastanley wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any
                                    > direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from
                                    > personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time. If it is
                                    > hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew and was their
                                    > experience I also say.
                                    > >
                                    > > Diana Stanley
                                    > >
                                    > > Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who
                                    > are searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
                                    > findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
                                    > thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.
                                    > >
                                    > I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                                    > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
                                    > have allot to bring to the table.
                                    > >
                                    > I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
                                    > called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
                                    > site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because
                                    > I'd raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
                                    > well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
                                    > complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
                                    > thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely
                                    > objective.
                                    >
                                    > For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
                                    > paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
                                    > >
                                    > I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
                                    > within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on
                                    > the facts.
                                    > >
                                    > I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
                                    > the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
                                    > belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking.
                                    > Do you?
                                    >
                                  • prometheus_973
                                    Hello Postekcon and All, Yes, it was always a conundrum trying to recruit new members via spreading the word i.e. manure. However, we had structured public
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Sep 14, 2011
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                                      Hello Postekcon and All,
                                      Yes, it was always a conundrum
                                      trying to recruit new members
                                      via "spreading the word" i.e.
                                      manure. However, we had
                                      structured public workshops
                                      and/or book discussions with
                                      Guidelines spelling out what
                                      to do and how to do it.

                                      Some RESA areas did experimental
                                      programs (special projects),
                                      and if successful, the ESC
                                      tweaked them to be used
                                      elsewhere. It was all quite
                                      time consuming and frustrating.
                                      Local areas and the H.I.s were
                                      always judged on the numbers
                                      of newbies showing up for
                                      these events. Most people
                                      were repeats and were into
                                      metaphysics or were the friends,
                                      coworkers or relatives of Eckists.

                                      I recall that one local area
                                      of a neighboring state was
                                      having a lot of success via
                                      large turnouts of newbies.
                                      They probably had a couple
                                      of hundred newbies in one
                                      year and that was practically
                                      unheard of in Eckankar. Several
                                      of these H.I.s were very proud
                                      of the "high counts" they turned
                                      in to the ESC. However, out
                                      of all of those newbies only
                                      about ten joined Eckankar
                                      and only, maybe, one or two
                                      remained after a year. These,
                                      I doubt, remained for the
                                      long haul. Let's face it, it's
                                      a dead end religion where
                                      one pretends, i.e. imagines
                                      or visualizes, their desires
                                      for "spiritual" progress and
                                      "knowingness" or "realization"
                                      of varying degrees. The initiation
                                      game is the main, underlying,
                                      theme. The problem, for Eckists,
                                      is that dangling carrot when
                                      initiations have been "slowed-
                                      down" for 25 years and the
                                      highest most can go is the 7th!

                                      Those 7th initiates who had
                                      hit the glass ceiling 20 or more
                                      years ago have rationalized
                                      it all away. They only stay in
                                      EK because they have some
                                      prestige, a lot of Eck friends,
                                      and have paid their dues with
                                      a lot of vahana and satsang
                                      work over the years. Plus, they've
                                      been taught to "imagine" and
                                      visualize, therefore, all they
                                      need to do is pretend they are
                                      8ths (on the inner). Most pretend
                                      they are higher than 8ths. After
                                      all, Darwin skipped or sped up
                                      initiations even for Klemp. So,
                                      if it was valid, then, why not
                                      today? Actually, just about all
                                      Eckists pretent they are "higher"
                                      than the number printed on
                                      their Membership Cards.

                                      Anyway, the reason why
                                      the EK Youth effort has
                                      gained some momentum
                                      over the years is because
                                      it's easier to brainwash a
                                      controlled subject. However,
                                      that doesn't always work,
                                      either, when these young
                                      Eckists see their parents
                                      act so nutty and non-Eck
                                      like. Plus, reclusive Klemp
                                      puts a lot of pressure upon
                                      them to do the vahana/
                                      missionary thing when
                                      it's tough enough getting
                                      through school and those
                                      teen years. Klemp doesn't
                                      have any empathy. He was
                                      in a Lutheran all boys high
                                      school and never learned
                                      about dating until he got
                                      out of the Air Force (1968)
                                      when he was 26 years old!

                                      One has to wonder why
                                      Klemp doesn't do his fair
                                      share of public vahana work.
                                      Why doesn't he have a radio
                                      show or do and say something
                                      in real time? The EK Seminars
                                      don't count. That's for maybe
                                      a hundred newbies who aren't
                                      all that "new" and for his brain-
                                      washed followers.

                                      In theory, Klemp's real "spiritual"
                                      mission is to help his followers
                                      achieve God Realization. However,
                                      what Initiation level is the indicator
                                      that this has been accomplished?

                                      According to Book 2, CH. 12 of
                                      the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad (Eckankar's
                                      Holy Book) their God, Sugmad,
                                      resides on the 10th Plane, however,
                                      Eckists must have the 11th Initiation
                                      for "entrance into the Sugmad world,
                                      which is the highest world of God,
                                      if any, may enter."

                                      Of course, that's not quite true either
                                      since there're the 12th, 13th, and 14th
                                      initiations after this one. This, then,
                                      is where one (supposedly) enters into
                                      Soul's true home called The Ocean of
                                      love and Mercy. However, one can see
                                      why EK Higher initiates (5-7) become
                                      internally frustrated since, except for
                                      a handful of people, they will never
                                      even see the 8th initiation (in this
                                      lifetime). That's the Catch/Con that
                                      Twitchell invented and Klemp inherited.
                                      Hope via promises for a better afterlife
                                      while imagining day-to-day miracles
                                      and dreaming about one's pre-programmed
                                      expectations. It's how any and every
                                      religion works.

                                      Prometheus




                                      "postekcon" wrote:
                                      Re
                                      >>>
                                      ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                                      "common language" but it's not
                                      quite true. ECK is not a common
                                      word and neither is Mahanta.
                                      And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                                      to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                                      others worship or think he is speaking
                                      about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                                      use the word GOD when it's not
                                      who or what they are referring
                                      to. It's like comparing apples
                                      to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                                      start out, and are trained, to be
                                      deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                                      fact alone makes Eckankar look
                                      very cult like. But, why the lie?
                                      The "common language" excuse
                                      doesn't hold water but Eckists
                                      can't question this underhanded
                                      practice or else they can have
                                      their position taken away and
                                      can be Black Listed and shunned.
                                      >>>


                                      For the past ten years, I have observed this pattern.

                                      Hard working HIs (50-70yrs plus) busy putting on Intro Talks, occasionally
                                      enrolling a new recruit to ekult.

                                      However, within a year or two, the new recruit leaves ekult as nothing makes
                                      sense! Of course, the HIs, unable to look at either themselves or ekult, always
                                      blame the new recruit with comments such as lack of unfoldment etc!

                                      For the new recruit, the reason nothing makes sense, I've observed, is thus. The
                                      HIs bring the new recruit into Paul Twitchell/Darwin Gross ekult; the ekult into
                                      which they themselved were enrolled. Now this version of ekult promised it had
                                      the tools for self/god realization in this lifetime etc. However, several MW
                                      (Mystic World) issues later, the new recruit comes to understand these 'good
                                      people' lied to them!
                                      -Postekcon


                                      In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                                      <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Hello All,
                                      > Just thought I'd share some
                                      > additional comments to what
                                      > Starshine wrote.
                                      >
                                      > starshine917 wrote:
                                      > Hello prometheus_973:
                                      > Remember me? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writing to you now….exactly, one
                                      > year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I didn't plan it like
                                      > this but somehow it just worked out this way.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ME: Yes, it takes awhile for the
                                      > realization to occur and sink in
                                      > even after one decides to look
                                      > for and analyze it via critical
                                      > thinking while giving HK's/PT's
                                      > redundant words a litmus test
                                      > for truthiness.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > I recently left Eckankar. And, you were right….I read David Lane's paper as
                                      well as Ford Johnson's "Confessions of a God Seeker" And, for some reason at
                                      that time I remained in the group tying to focus on the so-called positive side
                                      of the Eckankar, the hypnotic rederick that goes nowhere while ignoring the
                                      facts.

                                      > I then started to take a good look at Harold…looked into his "dark" eyes and
                                      > listened to his figure of monotone speak and I realized it was very hypnotic,
                                      > and at the same time very inviting. I wondered who or what was inside of those
                                      > dark eyes….And they seem to always come as "the light". Yes, the "angel of
                                      > light".
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ME: Klemp is no angel of light! He spreads
                                      > darkness and delusion while denying Eckists
                                      > their true nature as Soul. He gives (hope),
                                      > promises (higher plane initiations), and then
                                      > takes it all away (hope of ever getting beyond
                                      > the 7th initiation while in this lifetime, unless,
                                      > one pretends or imagines they are higher
                                      > via vanity and frustration).
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > I was in a satsang at that time and I found it disturbing more and more that
                                      his
                                      > same picture of himself, which by the way never changes, the one and only
                                      > picture that has to be present at all Eckankar meetings was never questioned
                                      by
                                      > it's members. All the books we studied were written by him and only him !!!
                                      And
                                      > how some members were "higher" than others depending on their "initiation"
                                      > number, even if these people knew absolutely nothing except what was written
                                      in
                                      > the books of Eckankar. Some of these people seemed to have anger issues too
                                      > which didn't seem to fit the spiritual portrait of a saint they painted. I
                                      > started to feel uncomfortable around these people cause they seemed more and
                                      > more to me like mind-controlled slaves. And, they too could see that I was
                                      > thinking and starting to pull away because I no longer looked to them without
                                      > question, with blind authority.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ME: Yes, that more youthful looking
                                      > Official Picture of Klemp's is a vain act,
                                      > but is never questioned because to do
                                      > so would get one Black Listed on initiations.
                                      > Those longtime Eckists who are part
                                      > of the RESA Hierarchy know what I'm
                                      > saying. Some H.I.s are fearful/cautious
                                      > of the spies that report to the RESA and
                                      > only share certain things (anti-Guideline
                                      > comments, etc.) around those H.I.s they
                                      > can trust.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > BTW- There are some books, that Klemp
                                      > has approved of, written by non-Eck
                                      > authors that Eckists can read. However,
                                      > the Eckist must always focus upon the
                                      > ECK or Mahanta when reading these
                                      > books and, thus, give up free, unfettered,
                                      > thought. Some of these books are
                                      > recommended to those in leadership
                                      > positions and are business oriented.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > So, it wasn't a good mix to say the very least. I finally had it out with one
                                      of
                                      > the members and I realized that I already left…In my heart, I choose to follow
                                      > truth and I also realized that that in Eckankar, I was being deceived. And I
                                      > realized that I couldn't have it both ways. I had to pick my convictions and
                                      go
                                      > with them. After all, why would I go against my own self, and what was in my
                                      > heart?
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ME: It's the easy way to place an
                                      > authority figure on a shelf higher
                                      > than yourself. Less thinking and
                                      > effort is involved when blind trust
                                      > takes over. It's lazy but that's what
                                      > people do. Look at how we allow
                                      > the politicians to say and do as
                                      > they please without taking responsibility.
                                      > With Klemp, it's always the chela's
                                      > fault and never his own! He slowed-
                                      > down initiations in 1985, but doesn't
                                      > need to explain why these haven't
                                      > sped up because he answers to
                                      > nobody else, except, Sugmad right?
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > In Eckankar it is taught to open and follow your heart but yet, if you dare
                                      open
                                      > your mind and begin to ask challenging questions, you're in trouble because
                                      > these people think the Mahanta in Eckankar is above all else and should never
                                      be
                                      > questioned, and your heart should be open to "him", the self appointed master,
                                      > Harold Klemp. Even if the members of Eckankar are not honest with themselves
                                      > enough to admit it consciously. On a subconscious level, they know better !!!
                                      >
                                      > ME: That following your heart
                                      > thing is more about the Astral
                                      > Heart Chakra... which is lower
                                      > than the Third Eye or Tisra Til!
                                      > Why didn't Klemp at least use
                                      > the (Astral) Crown Chakra when
                                      > having Eckists HU? After 30 years
                                      > and HK still has Eckists HUing
                                      > and focusing upon the 6th,
                                      > Third Eye, Astral Chakra versus
                                      > the 7th Crown Chakra!
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > The shame of it all is that this deception is done in the name of an
                                      > unconditional open heart to give love, which it is true, a part of GOD's flow
                                      > but where's the truth ? What happened to that part of GOD ??? I guess it got
                                      > lost in the sea of love…
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                                      > "common language" but it's not
                                      > quite true. ECK is not a common
                                      > word and neither is Mahanta.
                                      > And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                                      > to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                                      > others worship or think he is speaking
                                      > about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                                      > use the word GOD when it's not
                                      > who or what they are referring
                                      > to. It's like comparing apples
                                      > to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                                      > start out, and are trained, to be
                                      > deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                                      > fact alone makes Eckankar look
                                      > very cult like. But, why the lie?
                                      > The "common language" excuse
                                      > doesn't hold water but Eckists
                                      > can't question this underhanded
                                      > practice or else they can have
                                      > their position taken away and
                                      > be Black Listed and shunned.
                                      >
                                      > Prometheus
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Hello prometheus_973;
                                      > Remember me ? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writ
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Hello Rosemarie,
                                      > > I am a seeker of Truth as well.
                                      > > And yes, this article on "The Dark
                                      > > Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
                                      > > there is a dark side to Eckankar and
                                      > > there is also fear.
                                      > >
                                      > > I find it interesting that you've
                                      > > read (and I assume have contemplated
                                      > > upon) David Lane's research as well as
                                      > > Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
                                      > > and have, still, remained an ECKist.
                                      > >
                                      > > What happened to your "critical thinking?"
                                      > > Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
                                      > > you agree with some of it but not all of
                                      > > it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
                                      > > I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
                                      > > isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
                                      > > what they believe than any other religion
                                      > > they've found. Is that the case with you?
                                      > >
                                      > > I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
                                      > > book, threw it away (because of the bad
                                      > > vibes), and then placed themselves upon
                                      > > pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
                                      > > and talk Eckists through their doubts and
                                      > > concerns.
                                      > >
                                      > > You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
                                      > > not all truth is the same. That's why there
                                      > > are so many churches. People are social
                                      > > animals and tend to seek out others with
                                      > > similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
                                      > > to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
                                      > > to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
                                      > > and a test for Soul.
                                      > >
                                      > > I also got the impression that you don't
                                      > > participate much within the RESA structure.
                                      > > Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
                                      > > Do you know that you have to watch what
                                      > > you say? You've observed and learned that
                                      > > correct? You do care about being promoted
                                      > > to that next initiation right?
                                      > >
                                      > > Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
                                      > > take on the subjects that we've been discussing
                                      > > here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
                                      > > lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
                                      > > for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
                                      > > Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
                                      > > when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
                                      > > "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
                                      > > detectors just for his talk?
                                      > >
                                      > > You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                                      > > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
                                      > > at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."
                                      > >
                                      > > BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
                                      > > read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?
                                      > >
                                      > > Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
                                      > > the table.
                                      > >
                                      > > Prometheus
                                      > >
                                      > > rosemarie wrote:
                                      > > Hi Diana,
                                      > >
                                      > > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on
                                      this
                                      > path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been
                                      > to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that
                                      > honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that
                                      truth
                                      > is truth and will always be the truth.
                                      > >
                                      > > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we
                                      > follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching
                                      > which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's
                                      remember,
                                      > we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much
                                      to
                                      > bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
                                      > >
                                      > > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it
                                      hurts
                                      > sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we
                                      must
                                      > be brave and remain in truth.
                                      > >
                                      > > Thank you for getting back to me.
                                      > > Rosemarie
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > dianastanley wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any
                                      > direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from
                                      > personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time. If it is
                                      > hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew and was
                                      > their experience I also say.
                                      > >
                                      > > Diana Stanley
                                      > >
                                      > > Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who
                                      > are searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
                                      > findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
                                      > thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.
                                      > >
                                      > I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                                      > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
                                      > have allot to bring to the table.
                                      > >
                                      > I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
                                      > called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
                                      > site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because
                                      > I'd raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
                                      > well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
                                      > complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
                                      > thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely
                                      > objective.
                                      >
                                      > For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
                                      > paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
                                      > >
                                      > I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
                                      > within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on
                                      > the facts.
                                      > >
                                      > I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
                                      > the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
                                      > belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking.
                                      > Do you?
                                      >
                                    • etznab@aol.com
                                      One of Paul Twitchell s first reported journey s with Rebazar Tarzs mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme. Check the index section for Ocean
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Sep 14, 2011
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                                        One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar Tarzs
                                        mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme. Check the
                                        index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with the Master.

                                        The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless region,
                                        [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called THE FACE OF
                                        GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying: [Quoting
                                        >] "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the light of
                                        God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes could not look
                                        upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean of Love
                                        and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return in time."
                                        (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)

                                        Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in the House
                                        of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens. Ye cannot
                                        go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with my divine
                                        self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in the divine
                                        cause!"

                                        Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the Master, has
                                        Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting snippet]:

                                        "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in a
                                        mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
                                        attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
                                        "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and after
                                        this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul reaches
                                        the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or the SUGMAD,
                                        the supreme LORD of all that exists."

                                        http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html

                                        Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the description
                                        slightly:

                                        "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the Sat Nam in
                                        a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in all Sat
                                        Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the three
                                        remaining known planes.
                                        "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
                                        after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam Purusha, or
                                        lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region of the
                                        nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first you know
                                        about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the Divine.
                                        "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."

                                        http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html

                                        Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is illustrated (by
                                        Paul Twitchell) slightly different.

                                        "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam Lok.
                                        Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the end of its
                                        journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the supreme
                                        lord of all that exists."

                                        http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html

                                        The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok, Alak Lok,
                                        Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with Ocean of
                                        Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip mention of
                                        Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.

                                        In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master, Introduction to
                                        Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes similarly, and
                                        in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain sections from
                                        The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:

                                        "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit is
                                        expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal, Nirala,
                                        Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
                                        Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country

                                        http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html

                                        "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many words, such
                                        as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala, Anami, Agam,
                                        Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar, Parameshwar,
                                        Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters

                                        http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html

                                        Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent from the
                                        Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR vs.
                                        Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian Johnson's book,
                                        The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The Far
                                        Country, by at least three decades!

                                        Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word, trademarked
                                        it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is somehow more
                                        than a paraphrase.











                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                                        <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Wed, Sep 14, 2011 11:17 am
                                        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: "The Dark Side of ECKankar" -
                                        And More!

                                         
                                        Hello Postekcon and All,
                                        Yes, it was always a conundrum
                                        trying to recruit new members
                                        via "spreading the word" i.e.
                                        manure. However, we had
                                        structured public workshops
                                        and/or book discussions with
                                        Guidelines spelling out what
                                        to do and how to do it.

                                        Some RESA areas did experimental
                                        programs (special projects),
                                        and if successful, the ESC
                                        tweaked them to be used
                                        elsewhere. It was all quite
                                        time consuming and frustrating.
                                        Local areas and the H.I.s were
                                        always judged on the numbers
                                        of newbies showing up for
                                        these events. Most people
                                        were repeats and were into
                                        metaphysics or were the friends,
                                        coworkers or relatives of Eckists.

                                        I recall that one local area
                                        of a neighboring state was
                                        having a lot of success via
                                        large turnouts of newbies.
                                        They probably had a couple
                                        of hundred newbies in one
                                        year and that was practically
                                        unheard of in Eckankar. Several
                                        of these H.I.s were very proud
                                        of the "high counts" they turned
                                        in to the ESC. However, out
                                        of all of those newbies only
                                        about ten joined Eckankar
                                        and only, maybe, one or two
                                        remained after a year. These,
                                        I doubt, remained for the
                                        long haul. Let's face it, it's
                                        a dead end religion where
                                        one pretends, i.e. imagines
                                        or visualizes, their desires
                                        for "spiritual" progress and
                                        "knowingness" or "realization"
                                        of varying degrees. The initiation
                                        game is the main, underlying,
                                        theme. The problem, for Eckists,
                                        is that dangling carrot when
                                        initiations have been "slowed-
                                        down" for 25 years and the
                                        highest most can go is the 7th!

                                        Those 7th initiates who had
                                        hit the glass ceiling 20 or more
                                        years ago have rationalized
                                        it all away. They only stay in
                                        EK because they have some
                                        prestige, a lot of Eck friends,
                                        and have paid their dues with
                                        a lot of vahana and satsang
                                        work over the years. Plus, they've
                                        been taught to "imagine" and
                                        visualize, therefore, all they
                                        need to do is pretend they are
                                        8ths (on the inner). Most pretend
                                        they are higher than 8ths. After
                                        all, Darwin skipped or sped up
                                        initiations even for Klemp. So,
                                        if it was valid, then, why not
                                        today? Actually, just about all
                                        Eckists pretent they are "higher"
                                        than the number printed on
                                        their Membership Cards.

                                        Anyway, the reason why
                                        the EK Youth effort has
                                        gained some momentum
                                        over the years is because
                                        it's easier to brainwash a
                                        controlled subject. However,
                                        that doesn't always work,
                                        either, when these young
                                        Eckists see their parents
                                        act so nutty and non-Eck
                                        like. Plus, reclusive Klemp
                                        puts a lot of pressure upon
                                        them to do the vahana/
                                        missionary thing when
                                        it's tough enough getting
                                        through school and those
                                        teen years. Klemp doesn't
                                        have any empathy. He was
                                        in a Lutheran all boys high
                                        school and never learned
                                        about dating until he got
                                        out of the Air Force (1968)
                                        when he was 26 years old!

                                        One has to wonder why
                                        Klemp doesn't do his fair
                                        share of public vahana work.
                                        Why doesn't he have a radio
                                        show or do and say something
                                        in real time? The EK Seminars
                                        don't count. That's for maybe
                                        a hundred newbies who aren't
                                        all that "new" and for his brain-
                                        washed followers.

                                        In theory, Klemp's real "spiritual"
                                        mission is to help his followers
                                        achieve God Realization. However,
                                        what Initiation level is the indicator
                                        that this has been accomplished?

                                        According to Book 2, CH. 12 of
                                        the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad (Eckankar's
                                        Holy Book) their God, Sugmad,
                                        resides on the 10th Plane, however,
                                        Eckists must have the 11th Initiation
                                        for "entrance into the Sugmad world,
                                        which is the highest world of God,
                                        if any, may enter."

                                        Of course, that's not quite true either
                                        since there're the 12th, 13th, and 14th
                                        initiations after this one. This, then,
                                        is where one (supposedly) enters into
                                        Soul's true home called The Ocean of
                                        love and Mercy. However, one can see
                                        why EK Higher initiates (5-7) become
                                        internally frustrated since, except for
                                        a handful of people, they will never
                                        even see the 8th initiation (in this
                                        lifetime). That's the Catch/Con that
                                        Twitchell invented and Klemp inherited.
                                        Hope via promises for a better afterlife
                                        while imagining day-to-day miracles
                                        and dreaming about one's pre-programmed
                                        expectations. It's how any and every
                                        religion works.

                                        Prometheus

                                        "postekcon" wrote:
                                        Re
                                        >>>
                                        ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                                        "common language" but it's not
                                        quite true. ECK is not a common
                                        word and neither is Mahanta.
                                        And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                                        to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                                        others worship or think he is speaking
                                        about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                                        use the word GOD when it's not
                                        who or what they are referring
                                        to. It's like comparing apples
                                        to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                                        start out, and are trained, to be
                                        deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                                        fact alone makes Eckankar look
                                        very cult like. But, why the lie?
                                        The "common language" excuse
                                        doesn't hold water but Eckists
                                        can't question this underhanded
                                        practice or else they can have
                                        their position taken away and
                                        can be Black Listed and shunned.
                                        >>>

                                        For the past ten years, I have observed this pattern.

                                        Hard working HIs (50-70yrs plus) busy putting on Intro Talks,
                                        occasionally
                                        enrolling a new recruit to ekult.

                                        However, within a year or two, the new recruit leaves ekult as nothing
                                        makes
                                        sense! Of course, the HIs, unable to look at either themselves or
                                        ekult, always
                                        blame the new recruit with comments such as lack of unfoldment etc!

                                        For the new recruit, the reason nothing makes sense, I've observed, is
                                        thus. The
                                        HIs bring the new recruit into Paul Twitchell/Darwin Gross ekult; the
                                        ekult into
                                        which they themselved were enrolled. Now this version of ekult promised
                                        it had
                                        the tools for self/god realization in this lifetime etc. However,
                                        several MW
                                        (Mystic World) issues later, the new recruit comes to understand these
                                        'good
                                        people' lied to them!
                                        -Postekcon

                                        In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                                        <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Hello All,
                                        > Just thought I'd share some
                                        > additional comments to what
                                        > Starshine wrote.
                                        >
                                        > starshine917 wrote:
                                        > Hello prometheus_973:
                                        > Remember me? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writing to you
                                        now….exactly, one
                                        > year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I didn't
                                        plan it like
                                        > this but somehow it just worked out this way.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ME: Yes, it takes awhile for the
                                        > realization to occur and sink in
                                        > even after one decides to look
                                        > for and analyze it via critical
                                        > thinking while giving HK's/PT's
                                        > redundant words a litmus test
                                        > for truthiness.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > I recently left Eckankar. And, you were right….I read David Lane's
                                        paper as
                                        well as Ford Johnson's "Confessions of a God Seeker" And, for some
                                        reason at
                                        that time I remained in the group tying to focus on the so-called
                                        positive side
                                        of the Eckankar, the hypnotic rederick that goes nowhere while ignoring
                                        the
                                        facts.

                                        > I then started to take a good look at Harold…looked into his
                                        "dark" eyes and
                                        > listened to his figure of monotone speak and I realized it was
                                        very hypnotic,
                                        > and at the same time very inviting. I wondered who or what was
                                        inside of those
                                        > dark eyes….And they seem to always come as "the light". Yes, the
                                        "angel of
                                        > light".
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ME: Klemp is no angel of light! He spreads
                                        > darkness and delusion while denying Eckists
                                        > their true nature as Soul. He gives (hope),
                                        > promises (higher plane initiations), and then
                                        > takes it all away (hope of ever getting beyond
                                        > the 7th initiation while in this lifetime, unless,
                                        > one pretends or imagines they are higher
                                        > via vanity and frustration).
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > I was in a satsang at that time and I found it disturbing more and
                                        more that
                                        his
                                        > same picture of himself, which by the way never changes, the one
                                        and only
                                        > picture that has to be present at all Eckankar meetings was never
                                        questioned
                                        by
                                        > it's members. All the books we studied were written by him and
                                        only him !!!
                                        And
                                        > how some members were "higher" than others depending on their
                                        "initiation"
                                        > number, even if these people knew absolutely nothing except what
                                        was written
                                        in
                                        > the books of Eckankar. Some of these people seemed to have anger
                                        issues too
                                        > which didn't seem to fit the spiritual portrait of a saint they
                                        painted. I
                                        > started to feel uncomfortable around these people cause they
                                        seemed more and
                                        > more to me like mind-controlled slaves. And, they too could see
                                        that I was
                                        > thinking and starting to pull away because I no longer looked to
                                        them without
                                        > question, with blind authority.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ME: Yes, that more youthful looking
                                        > Official Picture of Klemp's is a vain act,
                                        > but is never questioned because to do
                                        > so would get one Black Listed on initiations.
                                        > Those longtime Eckists who are part
                                        > of the RESA Hierarchy know what I'm
                                        > saying. Some H.I.s are fearful/cautious
                                        > of the spies that report to the RESA and
                                        > only share certain things (anti-Guideline
                                        > comments, etc.) around those H.I.s they
                                        > can trust.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > BTW- There are some books, that Klemp
                                        > has approved of, written by non-Eck
                                        > authors that Eckists can read. However,
                                        > the Eckist must always focus upon the
                                        > ECK or Mahanta when reading these
                                        > books and, thus, give up free, unfettered,
                                        > thought. Some of these books are
                                        > recommended to those in leadership
                                        > positions and are business oriented.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > So, it wasn't a good mix to say the very least. I finally had it
                                        out with one
                                        of
                                        > the members and I realized that I already left…In my heart, I
                                        choose to follow
                                        > truth and I also realized that that in Eckankar, I was being
                                        deceived. And I
                                        > realized that I couldn't have it both ways. I had to pick my
                                        convictions and
                                        go
                                        > with them. After all, why would I go against my own self, and what
                                        was in my
                                        > heart?
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ME: It's the easy way to place an
                                        > authority figure on a shelf higher
                                        > than yourself. Less thinking and
                                        > effort is involved when blind trust
                                        > takes over. It's lazy but that's what
                                        > people do. Look at how we allow
                                        > the politicians to say and do as
                                        > they please without taking responsibility.
                                        > With Klemp, it's always the chela's
                                        > fault and never his own! He slowed-
                                        > down initiations in 1985, but doesn't
                                        > need to explain why these haven't
                                        > sped up because he answers to
                                        > nobody else, except, Sugmad right?
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > In Eckankar it is taught to open and follow your heart but yet, if
                                        you dare
                                        open
                                        > your mind and begin to ask challenging questions, you're in
                                        trouble because
                                        > these people think the Mahanta in Eckankar is above all else and
                                        should never
                                        be
                                        > questioned, and your heart should be open to "him", the self
                                        appointed master,
                                        > Harold Klemp. Even if the members of Eckankar are not honest with
                                        themselves
                                        > enough to admit it consciously. On a subconscious level, they know
                                        better !!!
                                        >
                                        > ME: That following your heart
                                        > thing is more about the Astral
                                        > Heart Chakra... which is lower
                                        > than the Third Eye or Tisra Til!
                                        > Why didn't Klemp at least use
                                        > the (Astral) Crown Chakra when
                                        > having Eckists HU? After 30 years
                                        > and HK still has Eckists HUing
                                        > and focusing upon the 6th,
                                        > Third Eye, Astral Chakra versus
                                        > the 7th Crown Chakra!
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > The shame of it all is that this deception is done in the name of
                                        an
                                        > unconditional open heart to give love, which it is true, a part of
                                        GOD's flow
                                        > but where's the truth ? What happened to that part of GOD ??? I
                                        guess it got
                                        > lost in the sea of love…
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                                        > "common language" but it's not
                                        > quite true. ECK is not a common
                                        > word and neither is Mahanta.
                                        > And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                                        > to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                                        > others worship or think he is speaking
                                        > about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                                        > use the word GOD when it's not
                                        > who or what they are referring
                                        > to. It's like comparing apples
                                        > to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                                        > start out, and are trained, to be
                                        > deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                                        > fact alone makes Eckankar look
                                        > very cult like. But, why the lie?
                                        > The "common language" excuse
                                        > doesn't hold water but Eckists
                                        > can't question this underhanded
                                        > practice or else they can have
                                        > their position taken away and
                                        > be Black Listed and shunned.
                                        >
                                        > Prometheus
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Hello prometheus_973;
                                        > Remember me ? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writ
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Hello Rosemarie,
                                        > > I am a seeker of Truth as well.
                                        > > And yes, this article on "The Dark
                                        > > Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
                                        > > there is a dark side to Eckankar and
                                        > > there is also fear.
                                        > >
                                        > > I find it interesting that you've
                                        > > read (and I assume have contemplated
                                        > > upon) David Lane's research as well as
                                        > > Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
                                        > > and have, still, remained an ECKist.
                                        > >
                                        > > What happened to your "critical thinking?"
                                        > > Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
                                        > > you agree with some of it but not all of
                                        > > it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
                                        > > I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
                                        > > isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
                                        > > what they believe than any other religion
                                        > > they've found. Is that the case with you?
                                        > >
                                        > > I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
                                        > > book, threw it away (because of the bad
                                        > > vibes), and then placed themselves upon
                                        > > pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
                                        > > and talk Eckists through their doubts and
                                        > > concerns.
                                        > >
                                        > > You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
                                        > > not all truth is the same. That's why there
                                        > > are so many churches. People are social
                                        > > animals and tend to seek out others with
                                        > > similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
                                        > > to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
                                        > > to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
                                        > > and a test for Soul.
                                        > >
                                        > > I also got the impression that you don't
                                        > > participate much within the RESA structure.
                                        > > Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
                                        > > Do you know that you have to watch what
                                        > > you say? You've observed and learned that
                                        > > correct? You do care about being promoted
                                        > > to that next initiation right?
                                        > >
                                        > > Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
                                        > > take on the subjects that we've been discussing
                                        > > here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
                                        > > lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
                                        > > for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
                                        > > Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
                                        > > when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
                                        > > "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
                                        > > detectors just for his talk?
                                        > >
                                        > > You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                                        > > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
                                        > > at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."
                                        > >
                                        > > BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
                                        > > read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?
                                        > >
                                        > > Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
                                        > > the table.
                                        > >
                                        > > Prometheus
                                        > >
                                        > > rosemarie wrote:
                                        > > Hi Diana,
                                        > >
                                        > > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar
                                        and while on
                                        this
                                        > path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as
                                        well. I've been
                                        > to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I
                                        agree that
                                        > honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also
                                        understand that
                                        truth
                                        > is truth and will always be the truth.
                                        > >
                                        > > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless
                                        of what path we
                                        > follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are
                                        all searching
                                        > which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and
                                        let's
                                        remember,
                                        > we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We
                                        have so much
                                        to
                                        > bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and
                                        experience.
                                        > >
                                        > > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it
                                        even if it
                                        hurts
                                        > sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back
                                        to GOD, we
                                        must
                                        > be brave and remain in truth.
                                        > >
                                        > > Thank you for getting back to me.
                                        > > Rosemarie
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > dianastanley wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you
                                        have any
                                        > direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it
                                        is from
                                        > personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time.
                                        If it is
                                        > hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew
                                        and was
                                        > their experience I also say.
                                        > >
                                        > > Diana Stanley
                                        > >
                                        > > Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for
                                        those of you who
                                        > are searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for
                                        sharing your
                                        > findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light"
                                        of critical
                                        > thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.
                                        > >
                                        > I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar
                                        has issues.
                                        > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this
                                        site, so we
                                        > have allot to bring to the table.
                                        > >
                                        > I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used
                                        in this paper
                                        > called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links"
                                        in this web
                                        > site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of
                                        challenge because
                                        > I'd raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this
                                        paper as
                                        > well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be
                                        painted with
                                        > complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of
                                        critical
                                        > thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being
                                        completely
                                        > objective.
                                        >
                                        > For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack
                                        ECKankar in this
                                        > paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they
                                        originated.
                                        > >
                                        > I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure
                                        is overdo
                                        > within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is
                                        based on
                                        > the facts.
                                        > >
                                        > I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't
                                        think
                                        > the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within
                                        one religious
                                        > belief system and exchange them for another in the name of
                                        critical thinking.
                                        > Do you?
                                        >
                                      • prometheus_973
                                        Hello Etznab and All, It is interesting that Twitchell has his Rebazar character (the Master who initiated him) indicate that there were 8 Planes just as
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Sep 16, 2011
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                                          Hello Etznab and All,
                                          It is interesting that Twitchell
                                          has his Rebazar character (the
                                          "Master" who initiated him)
                                          indicate that there were 8 Planes
                                          just as Radhasomi and Ruhani
                                          Satsang have listed in "The Path
                                          of the Masters." Since Kirpal
                                          Singh, of Ruhani Satsang, was
                                          Paul's real life Master for ten years
                                          it's no wonder that this dogma was
                                          influential in the design of Eckankar.

                                          Of course, Twitchell was constantly
                                          tweaking, revising, and masking his
                                          religious con as time went by.

                                          The Anami Lok (10th Plane where
                                          "Sugmad" resides) didn't appear until
                                          later. Did Rebazar simply forget to
                                          mention this as well as the "Mahanta?"
                                          Did RT think that Paul needed to be
                                          spoon-fed and wasn't ready for this
                                          advanced "spiritual" info? No, not really.
                                          According to Twitchell he had been
                                          given the 12th and "final initiation"
                                          (to become LEM) back in 1951 by
                                          Rebazar while on his "2nd" visit to
                                          India. See, the timeline is off for this
                                          ekplanation to be taken seriously as
                                          well.

                                          Therefore, there is no rational excuse
                                          for these inconsistencies except to
                                          admit that the "rascal" Twitchell was,
                                          once again, "exaggerating" and "twisting
                                          facts" as even Klemp has described
                                          and said of him. Klemp, years ago,
                                          had to admit that Twitchell was a self-
                                          promoter and did or said whatever
                                          he needed to do ("By Any Means Necessary")
                                          in order to get Eckankar off the ground.

                                          This is why Klemp, at first, had a
                                          difficult job of explaining Twitchell's
                                          inconsistencies and needed to keep
                                          Eckists confused, busy, and off-balance.
                                          Now, Eckists are so brainwashed that
                                          Klemp can say whatever in his simple
                                          minded redundant versions of feel-good
                                          New Age spirituality.


                                          Prometheus



                                          etznab wrote:

                                          One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar Tarzs
                                          mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme. Check the
                                          index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with the Master.

                                          The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless region,
                                          [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called THE FACE OF
                                          GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying: [Quoting]
                                          "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the light of
                                          God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes could not look
                                          upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean of Love
                                          and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return in time."
                                          (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)

                                          Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in the House
                                          of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens. Ye cannot
                                          go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with my divine
                                          self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in the divine
                                          cause!"

                                          Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the Master, has
                                          Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting snippet]:

                                          "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in a
                                          mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
                                          attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
                                          "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and after
                                          this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul reaches
                                          the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or the SUGMAD,
                                          the supreme LORD of all that exists."

                                          http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html

                                          Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the description
                                          slightly:

                                          "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the Sat Nam in
                                          a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in all Sat
                                          Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the three
                                          remaining known planes.

                                          "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
                                          after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam Purusha, or
                                          lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region of the
                                          nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first you know
                                          about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the Divine.

                                          "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."

                                          http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html

                                          Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is illustrated (by
                                          Paul Twitchell) slightly different.

                                          "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam Lok.
                                          Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the end of its
                                          journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the supreme
                                          lord of all that exists."

                                          http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html

                                          The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok, Alak Lok,
                                          Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with Ocean of
                                          Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip mention of
                                          Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.

                                          In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master, Introduction to
                                          Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes similarly, and
                                          in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain sections from
                                          The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:

                                          "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit is
                                          expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal, Nirala,
                                          Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
                                          Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country

                                          http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html

                                          "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many words, such
                                          as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala, Anami, Agam,
                                          Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar, Parameshwar,
                                          Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters

                                          http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html

                                          Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent from the
                                          Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR vs.
                                          Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian Johnson's book,
                                          The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The Far
                                          Country, by at least three decades!

                                          Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word, trademarked
                                          it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is somehow more
                                          than a paraphrase.
                                        • etznab18
                                          Almost didn t see this response because the e-mail bounced. Umm ... about the self-promotion, whatever, people can read about some of the history here.
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Sep 16, 2011
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Almost didn't see this response because the e-mail bounced.

                                            Umm ... about the self-promotion, whatever, people can read about some of the history here.

                                            http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html

                                            Check out 4th paragraph of article entitled: Paul's Seal of Approval.

                                            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Hello Etznab and All,
                                            > It is interesting that Twitchell
                                            > has his Rebazar character (the
                                            > "Master" who initiated him)
                                            > indicate that there were 8 Planes
                                            > just as Radhasomi and Ruhani
                                            > Satsang have listed in "The Path
                                            > of the Masters." Since Kirpal
                                            > Singh, of Ruhani Satsang, was
                                            > Paul's real life Master for ten years
                                            > it's no wonder that this dogma was
                                            > influential in the design of Eckankar.
                                            >
                                            > Of course, Twitchell was constantly
                                            > tweaking, revising, and masking his
                                            > religious con as time went by.
                                            >
                                            > The Anami Lok (10th Plane where
                                            > "Sugmad" resides) didn't appear until
                                            > later. Did Rebazar simply forget to
                                            > mention this as well as the "Mahanta?"
                                            > Did RT think that Paul needed to be
                                            > spoon-fed and wasn't ready for this
                                            > advanced "spiritual" info? No, not really.
                                            > According to Twitchell he had been
                                            > given the 12th and "final initiation"
                                            > (to become LEM) back in 1951 by
                                            > Rebazar while on his "2nd" visit to
                                            > India. See, the timeline is off for this
                                            > ekplanation to be taken seriously as
                                            > well.
                                            >
                                            > Therefore, there is no rational excuse
                                            > for these inconsistencies except to
                                            > admit that the "rascal" Twitchell was,
                                            > once again, "exaggerating" and "twisting
                                            > facts" as even Klemp has described
                                            > and said of him. Klemp, years ago,
                                            > had to admit that Twitchell was a self-
                                            > promoter and did or said whatever
                                            > he needed to do ("By Any Means Necessary")
                                            > in order to get Eckankar off the ground.
                                            >
                                            > This is why Klemp, at first, had a
                                            > difficult job of explaining Twitchell's
                                            > inconsistencies and needed to keep
                                            > Eckists confused, busy, and off-balance.
                                            > Now, Eckists are so brainwashed that
                                            > Klemp can say whatever in his simple
                                            > minded redundant versions of feel-good
                                            > New Age spirituality.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Prometheus
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > etznab wrote:
                                            >
                                            > One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar Tarzs
                                            > mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme. Check the
                                            > index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with the Master.
                                            >
                                            > The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless region,
                                            > [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called THE FACE OF
                                            > GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying: [Quoting]
                                            > "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the light of
                                            > God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes could not look
                                            > upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean of Love
                                            > and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return in time."
                                            > (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)
                                            >
                                            > Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in the House
                                            > of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens. Ye cannot
                                            > go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with my divine
                                            > self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in the divine
                                            > cause!"
                                            >
                                            > Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the Master, has
                                            > Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting snippet]:
                                            >
                                            > "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in a
                                            > mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
                                            > attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
                                            > "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and after
                                            > this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul reaches
                                            > the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or the SUGMAD,
                                            > the supreme LORD of all that exists."
                                            >
                                            > http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html
                                            >
                                            > Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the description
                                            > slightly:
                                            >
                                            > "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the Sat Nam in
                                            > a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in all Sat
                                            > Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the three
                                            > remaining known planes.
                                            >
                                            > "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
                                            > after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam Purusha, or
                                            > lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region of the
                                            > nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first you know
                                            > about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the Divine.
                                            >
                                            > "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."
                                            >
                                            > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                            >
                                            > Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is illustrated (by
                                            > Paul Twitchell) slightly different.
                                            >
                                            > "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam Lok.
                                            > Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the end of its
                                            > journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the supreme
                                            > lord of all that exists."
                                            >
                                            > http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html
                                            >
                                            > The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok, Alak Lok,
                                            > Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with Ocean of
                                            > Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip mention of
                                            > Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.
                                            >
                                            > In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master, Introduction to
                                            > Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes similarly, and
                                            > in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain sections from
                                            > The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:
                                            >
                                            > "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit is
                                            > expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal, Nirala,
                                            > Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
                                            > Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country
                                            >
                                            > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                            >
                                            > "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many words, such
                                            > as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala, Anami, Agam,
                                            > Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar, Parameshwar,
                                            > Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters
                                            >
                                            > http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html
                                            >
                                            > Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent from the
                                            > Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR vs.
                                            > Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian Johnson's book,
                                            > The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The Far
                                            > Country, by at least three decades!
                                            >
                                            > Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word, trademarked
                                            > it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is somehow more
                                            > than a paraphrase.
                                            >
                                          • prometheus_973
                                            Hello Etznab and All, This tells how Paul Twitchell was His Own Drum Beater: http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html What s interesting is that at
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Sep 17, 2011
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                                              Hello Etznab and All,
                                              This tells how Paul Twitchell
                                              was His Own Drum Beater:

                                              http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html

                                              What's interesting is that at age 27 (1935)
                                              Twitchell was saying that he had been
                                              to India (supposedly at age 15 to meet
                                              Rebazar for the first time, DOBTLEM).
                                              However, Klemp points out that Twitchell
                                              was doing another self-promotion, and
                                              was lying in order to get into Who's Who
                                              in Kentucky. Klemp states that Twitchell
                                              had never been all that far from home
                                              at age 27. Klemp seems to have stepped
                                              into a big pile of Twits mess. HK's
                                              statement contradicts what Twitchell
                                              revealed in Difficulties of Becoming the
                                              Living ECK Master circa July, 1971. This
                                              1971 date is, supposedly, long after Twitchell
                                              (the Mahanta) was was no longer "exaggerating"
                                              and "twisting facts." However, as Klemp
                                              has pointed out Twitchell was still lying
                                              and promoting his con up until his untimely
                                              and death in September, 1971.

                                              Prometheus

                                              etznab@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Almost didn't see this response because the e-mail bounced.
                                              >
                                              > Umm ... about the self-promotion, whatever, people can read about some of the history here.
                                              >
                                              > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html
                                              >
                                              > Check out 4th paragraph of article entitled: Paul's Seal of Approval.
                                              >
                                              > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > Hello Etznab and All,
                                              > > It is interesting that Twitchell
                                              > > has his Rebazar character (the
                                              > > "Master" who initiated him)
                                              > > indicate that there were 8 Planes
                                              > > just as Radhasomi and Ruhani
                                              > > Satsang have listed in "The Path
                                              > > of the Masters." Since Kirpal
                                              > > Singh, of Ruhani Satsang, was
                                              > > Paul's real life Master for ten years
                                              > > it's no wonder that this dogma was
                                              > > influential in the design of Eckankar.
                                              > >
                                              > > Of course, Twitchell was constantly
                                              > > tweaking, revising, and masking his
                                              > > religious con as time went by.
                                              > >
                                              > > The Anami Lok (10th Plane where
                                              > > "Sugmad" resides) didn't appear until
                                              > > later. Did Rebazar simply forget to
                                              > > mention this as well as the "Mahanta?"
                                              > > Did RT think that Paul needed to be
                                              > > spoon-fed and wasn't ready for this
                                              > > advanced "spiritual" info? No, not really.
                                              > > According to Twitchell he had been
                                              > > given the 12th and "final initiation"
                                              > > (to become LEM) back in 1951 by
                                              > > Rebazar while on his "2nd" visit to
                                              > > India. See, the timeline is off for this
                                              > > ekplanation to be taken seriously as
                                              > > well.
                                              > >
                                              > > Therefore, there is no rational excuse
                                              > > for these inconsistencies except to
                                              > > admit that the "rascal" Twitchell was,
                                              > > once again, "exaggerating" and "twisting
                                              > > facts" as even Klemp has described
                                              > > and said of him. Klemp, years ago,
                                              > > had to admit that Twitchell was a self-
                                              > > promoter and did or said whatever
                                              > > he needed to do ("By Any Means Necessary")
                                              > > in order to get Eckankar off the ground.
                                              > >
                                              > > This is why Klemp, at first, had a
                                              > > difficult job of explaining Twitchell's
                                              > > inconsistencies and needed to keep
                                              > > Eckists confused, busy, and off-balance.
                                              > > Now, Eckists are so brainwashed that
                                              > > Klemp can say whatever in his simple
                                              > > minded redundant versions of feel-good
                                              > > New Age spirituality.
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > Prometheus
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > etznab wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar Tarzs
                                              > > mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme. Check the
                                              > > index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with the Master.
                                              > >
                                              > > The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless region,
                                              > > [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called THE FACE OF
                                              > > GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying: [Quoting]
                                              > > "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the light of
                                              > > God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes could not look
                                              > > upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean of Love
                                              > > and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return in time."
                                              > > (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)
                                              > >
                                              > > Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in the House
                                              > > of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens. Ye cannot
                                              > > go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with my divine
                                              > > self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in the divine
                                              > > cause!"
                                              > >
                                              > > Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the Master, has
                                              > > Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting snippet]:
                                              > >
                                              > > "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in a
                                              > > mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
                                              > > attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
                                              > > "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and after
                                              > > this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul reaches
                                              > > the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or the SUGMAD,
                                              > > the supreme LORD of all that exists."
                                              > >
                                              > > http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html
                                              > >
                                              > > Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the description
                                              > > slightly:
                                              > >
                                              > > "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the Sat Nam in
                                              > > a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in all Sat
                                              > > Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the three
                                              > > remaining known planes.
                                              > >
                                              > > "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
                                              > > after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam Purusha, or
                                              > > lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region of the
                                              > > nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first you know
                                              > > about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the Divine.
                                              > >
                                              > > "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."
                                              > >
                                              > > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                              > >
                                              > > Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is illustrated (by
                                              > > Paul Twitchell) slightly different.
                                              > >
                                              > > "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam Lok.
                                              > > Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the end of its
                                              > > journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the supreme
                                              > > lord of all that exists."
                                              > >
                                              > > http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html
                                              > >
                                              > > The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok, Alak Lok,
                                              > > Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with Ocean of
                                              > > Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip mention of
                                              > > Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.
                                              > >
                                              > > In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master, Introduction to
                                              > > Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes similarly, and
                                              > > in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain sections from
                                              > > The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:
                                              > >
                                              > > "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit is
                                              > > expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal, Nirala,
                                              > > Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
                                              > > Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country
                                              > >
                                              > > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                              > >
                                              > > "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many words, such
                                              > > as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala, Anami, Agam,
                                              > > Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar, Parameshwar,
                                              > > Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters
                                              > >
                                              > > http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html
                                              > >
                                              > > Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent from the
                                              > > Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR vs.
                                              > > Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian Johnson's book,
                                              > > The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The Far
                                              > > Country, by at least three decades!
                                              > >
                                              > > Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word, trademarked
                                              > > it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is somehow more
                                              > > than a paraphrase.
                                              > >
                                              >
                                            • etznab@aol.com
                                              I think a lot of people can overlook this stuff, thinking that whatever Paul Twitchell said/wrote must be the truth. Some people just might not care. Well,
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Sep 17, 2011
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                                                I think a lot of people can overlook this stuff, thinking that whatever
                                                Paul Twitchell said/wrote must be the truth. Some people just might not
                                                care. Well, it's reasonable to suspect this talent - for promotion,
                                                even when it means making things up, stretching the truth, or just
                                                plain spinning lies - was used to "create" the Eckankar mythos.

                                                myth

                                                1830, from Gk. mythos "speech, thought, story, myth," of unknown origin.

                                                Myths are "stories about divine beings, generally arranged in a
                                                coherent system; they are revered as true and sacred; they are endorsed
                                                by rulers and priests; and closely linked to religion. Once this link
                                                is broken, and the actors in the story are not regarded as gods but as
                                                human heroes, giants or fairies, it is no longer a myth but a folktale.
                                                Where the central actor is divine but the story is trivial ... the
                                                result is religious legend, not myth." [J. Simpson & S. Roud,
                                                "Dictionary of English Folklore," Oxford, 2000, p.254]

                                                General sense of "untrue story, rumor" is from 1840.

                                                http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=mythos&searchmode=none

                                                In other words, amid all the compilations and recycled material, etc.,
                                                context has been changed (in various places) when it comes to source. I
                                                wonder, could Paul Twitchell have created "Eckankar" and at the same
                                                time given the source for all of his material? I noticed Kirpal Singh
                                                and others were very good at citing references and sharing what
                                                quote/saying came from who. So if Paul Twitchell ever chose to use
                                                passages and paragraphs from books, Did he always feel obligated to
                                                provide that information?

                                                As a promoter, I suspect the person wants to give credit to whatever
                                                they're promoting and not give more credit to "other products" instead.
                                                It makes sense (to me) that Paul Twitchell would "paint the name
                                                Eckankar" over so much material he had read (in so many words). Not
                                                only this, but it even appears probable that Paul Twitchell took
                                                liberty to respell and redefine words according to fit them in a new,
                                                and growing, Eckankar philosophy. Not only words, but names too!

                                                How extensive the promotion and PR campaign that created contemporary
                                                Eckankar teaching? In so many ways, it seems this is the part that
                                                doesn't agree with people. Not unless they knew from the beginning that
                                                information was not necessarily accurate and in some places embellished.

                                                embellish

                                                mid-14c., "to render beautiful," from O.Fr. embelliss-, stem of
                                                embellir "make beautiful, ornament," from em- (see en- (1)) + bel
                                                "beautiful," from L. bellus (see bene-). Meaning "dress up (a
                                                narration) with fictitious matter" is from mid-15c. Related:
                                                Embellished; embellishing.

                                                http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=embellished&searchmode=none

                                                Reading through early Eckankar books I think common sense might tell a
                                                person that parts of the material was embellished. At the same time I
                                                also think people could naturally so much want the material to be true
                                                that they allow imagination to "make it so" and overrule common sense.

                                                Ever observe what happens when you're part of a group where countless
                                                individuals believe in things - through imagination - that aren't
                                                necessarily true? I mean, when you're one of the unbelievers and part
                                                of the minority who question whether so many imagined things are true?


                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                                                <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                                                Sent: Sat, Sep 17, 2011 2:14 am
                                                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: "The Dark Side of ECKankar" -
                                                And More!

                                                 
                                                Hello Etznab and All,
                                                This tells how Paul Twitchell
                                                was His Own Drum Beater:

                                                http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html

                                                What's interesting is that at age 27 (1935)
                                                Twitchell was saying that he had been
                                                to India (supposedly at age 15 to meet
                                                Rebazar for the first time, DOBTLEM).
                                                However, Klemp points out that Twitchell
                                                was doing another self-promotion, and
                                                was lying in order to get into Who's Who
                                                in Kentucky. Klemp states that Twitchell
                                                had never been all that far from home
                                                at age 27. Klemp seems to have stepped
                                                into a big pile of Twits mess. HK's
                                                statement contradicts what Twitchell
                                                revealed in Difficulties of Becoming the
                                                Living ECK Master circa July, 1971. This
                                                1971 date is, supposedly, long after Twitchell
                                                (the Mahanta) was was no longer "exaggerating"
                                                and "twisting facts." However, as Klemp
                                                has pointed out Twitchell was still lying
                                                and promoting his con up until his untimely
                                                and death in September, 1971.

                                                Prometheus

                                                etznab@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Almost didn't see this response because the e-mail bounced.
                                                >
                                                > Umm ... about the self-promotion, whatever, people can read about
                                                some of the history here.
                                                >
                                                > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html
                                                >
                                                > Check out 4th paragraph of article entitled: Paul's Seal of
                                                Approval.
                                                >
                                                > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                                                "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > Hello Etznab and All,
                                                > > It is interesting that Twitchell
                                                > > has his Rebazar character (the
                                                > > "Master" who initiated him)
                                                > > indicate that there were 8 Planes
                                                > > just as Radhasomi and Ruhani
                                                > > Satsang have listed in "The Path
                                                > > of the Masters." Since Kirpal
                                                > > Singh, of Ruhani Satsang, was
                                                > > Paul's real life Master for ten years
                                                > > it's no wonder that this dogma was
                                                > > influential in the design of Eckankar.
                                                > >
                                                > > Of course, Twitchell was constantly
                                                > > tweaking, revising, and masking his
                                                > > religious con as time went by.
                                                > >
                                                > > The Anami Lok (10th Plane where
                                                > > "Sugmad" resides) didn't appear until
                                                > > later. Did Rebazar simply forget to
                                                > > mention this as well as the "Mahanta?"
                                                > > Did RT think that Paul needed to be
                                                > > spoon-fed and wasn't ready for this
                                                > > advanced "spiritual" info? No, not really.
                                                > > According to Twitchell he had been
                                                > > given the 12th and "final initiation"
                                                > > (to become LEM) back in 1951 by
                                                > > Rebazar while on his "2nd" visit to
                                                > > India. See, the timeline is off for this
                                                > > ekplanation to be taken seriously as
                                                > > well.
                                                > >
                                                > > Therefore, there is no rational excuse
                                                > > for these inconsistencies except to
                                                > > admit that the "rascal" Twitchell was,
                                                > > once again, "exaggerating" and "twisting
                                                > > facts" as even Klemp has described
                                                > > and said of him. Klemp, years ago,
                                                > > had to admit that Twitchell was a self-
                                                > > promoter and did or said whatever
                                                > > he needed to do ("By Any Means Necessary")
                                                > > in order to get Eckankar off the ground.
                                                > >
                                                > > This is why Klemp, at first, had a
                                                > > difficult job of explaining Twitchell's
                                                > > inconsistencies and needed to keep
                                                > > Eckists confused, busy, and off-balance.
                                                > > Now, Eckists are so brainwashed that
                                                > > Klemp can say whatever in his simple
                                                > > minded redundant versions of feel-good
                                                > > New Age spirituality.
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > Prometheus
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > etznab wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar
                                                Tarzs
                                                > > mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme.
                                                Check the
                                                > > index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with
                                                the Master.
                                                > >
                                                > > The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless
                                                region,
                                                > > [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called
                                                THE FACE OF
                                                > > GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying:
                                                [Quoting]
                                                > > "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the
                                                light of
                                                > > God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes
                                                could not look
                                                > > upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean
                                                of Love
                                                > > and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return
                                                in time."
                                                > > (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)
                                                > >
                                                > > Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in
                                                the House
                                                > > of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens.
                                                Ye cannot
                                                > > go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with
                                                my divine
                                                > > self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in
                                                the divine
                                                > > cause!"
                                                > >
                                                > > Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the
                                                Master, has
                                                > > Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting
                                                snippet]:
                                                > >
                                                > > "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in
                                                a
                                                > > mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
                                                > > attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
                                                > > "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
                                                after
                                                > > this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul
                                                reaches
                                                > > the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or
                                                the SUGMAD,
                                                > > the supreme LORD of all that exists."
                                                > >
                                                > > http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html
                                                > >
                                                > > Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the
                                                description
                                                > > slightly:
                                                > >
                                                > > "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the
                                                Sat Nam in
                                                > > a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in
                                                all Sat
                                                > > Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the
                                                three
                                                > > remaining known planes.
                                                > >
                                                > > "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha,
                                                and
                                                > > after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam
                                                Purusha, or
                                                > > lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region
                                                of the
                                                > > nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first
                                                you know
                                                > > about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the
                                                Divine.
                                                > >
                                                > > "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."
                                                > >
                                                > > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                                > >
                                                > > Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is
                                                illustrated (by
                                                > > Paul Twitchell) slightly different.
                                                > >
                                                > > "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam
                                                Lok.
                                                > > Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the
                                                end of its
                                                > > journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the
                                                supreme
                                                > > lord of all that exists."
                                                > >
                                                > > http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html
                                                > >
                                                > > The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok,
                                                Alak Lok,
                                                > > Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with
                                                Ocean of
                                                > > Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip
                                                mention of
                                                > > Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.
                                                > >
                                                > > In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master,
                                                Introduction to
                                                > > Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes
                                                similarly, and
                                                > > in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain
                                                sections from
                                                > > The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:
                                                > >
                                                > > "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit
                                                is
                                                > > expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal,
                                                Nirala,
                                                > > Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
                                                > > Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country
                                                > >
                                                > > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                                > >
                                                > > "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many
                                                words, such
                                                > > as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala,
                                                Anami, Agam,
                                                > > Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar,
                                                Parameshwar,
                                                > > Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters
                                                > >
                                                > > http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html
                                                > >
                                                > > Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent
                                                from the
                                                > > Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR
                                                vs.
                                                > > Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian
                                                Johnson's book,
                                                > > The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The
                                                Far
                                                > > Country, by at least three decades!
                                                > >
                                                > > Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word,
                                                trademarked
                                                > > it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is
                                                somehow more
                                                > > than a paraphrase.
                                                > >
                                                >
                                              • prometheus_973
                                                Hello Etznab and All, It s true that most Eckists have turned a blind eye towards their religion. However, it s done via Klemp s subtle and not so subtle
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Sep 17, 2011
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                                                  Hello Etznab and All,
                                                  It's true that most Eckists have
                                                  turned a blind eye towards their
                                                  religion. However, it's done via
                                                  Klemp's subtle and not so subtle
                                                  intimidation tactics such as:

                                                  Going to the "inner" to have
                                                  one's questions answered...
                                                  this is what the more "advanced"
                                                  and "enlightened" Eckists do.

                                                  Using the Buddha quote of, "Is
                                                  it true, is it necessary, is it kind"
                                                  this I ask myself before I speak
                                                  my mind.

                                                  HK writing articles and giving
                                                  talks on the negativity of gossip
                                                  and how it hinders one's "spiritual"
                                                  growth.

                                                  Also, there's the unspoken knowledge
                                                  that those who ask too many questions,
                                                  especially "wrong" questions, will get
                                                  Eckists Black Listed on initiations or
                                                  to have them slowed down 3-5 years
                                                  (on average) longer than normal.

                                                  Plus, Eckankar's Higher Initiates
                                                  (5-7) are a very passive group
                                                  and don't want to question the
                                                  foundation of their religion because
                                                  things are going okay so why rock
                                                  the boat? Being an H.I. is an ego
                                                  trip and a security blanket too.

                                                  And, let's face it, most Eckists don't
                                                  have the time or inclination to research
                                                  the old, P.T., Eckankar texts. They've
                                                  read it all before so why go back and
                                                  read it with new eyes and a changed
                                                  consciousness? However, it does make
                                                  one wonder why they've allowed them-
                                                  selves to be shackled to HK's dogma
                                                  when it's all based upon Twitchell's
                                                  "compilation."

                                                  In PT's Eckankar Dictionary, Shariyat
                                                  One and HK's First Lexicon, they
                                                  tell about the first "root race" called
                                                  the "POLARIANS." Klemp must agree
                                                  with Twitchell on this dogmatic information
                                                  since he put it into his own Eckankar
                                                  Lexicon.

                                                  But, do Eckists really believe in the
                                                  Old Testament Christian Myth about
                                                  the Garden of Eden? Actually, no,
                                                  they don't! I've even read where
                                                  they've made fun of this. How ironic!
                                                  Twitchell not only states that the
                                                  Garden of Eden existed but gives
                                                  his own (revised) names of those
                                                  present. In the ECK version Adam
                                                  becomes "Adom" and Eve becomes
                                                  "Ede" (like in Eden) This is, of course,
                                                  a clear picture of how Twitchell created
                                                  Eckankar. He took certain words,
                                                  names, and information changed
                                                  the text and letters around, or added
                                                  and omitted letters, and made the
                                                  info his own.

                                                  What's really funny is that in defense
                                                  of Twitchell Klemp has claimed that
                                                  Paul "compiled" only the highest teachings
                                                  from around the world in order to
                                                  create the highest "spiritual" teaching
                                                  anywhere and at anytime. Why then,
                                                  did Twitchell use the Garden of Eden
                                                  myth, and create Adom and Ede?
                                                  Is this supposed to be the actual
                                                  account while the Christian version
                                                  is less accurate. This is how Eckists
                                                  rationalize and explain everything
                                                  (the truth) away. ECK is a facsimile
                                                  and everything else is a copy. But
                                                  this shows that all religions are
                                                  distorted and inaccurate copies.

                                                  It really should be embarrassing,
                                                  for Eckists, since this information
                                                  is listed in their first Holy Book
                                                  under Polarian race (check the
                                                  index for the page number).

                                                  Plus, let's face it. This Garden
                                                  of Eden myth is a non-evolutionary
                                                  belief. It was devised during
                                                  a time of ignorance and pre-science
                                                  in order to give a religious explanation
                                                  for creation. And, it's been revised
                                                  even by early Christianity because
                                                  Lillith was supposed to have been
                                                  Adam's first mate who was created
                                                  equally with him.

                                                  Later, the creation myth story was
                                                  changed so that Eve was created
                                                  from Adam's rib in order to make
                                                  her subservient to him... as Eckists
                                                  are to subservient to Klemp. Thus,
                                                  no female LEMs and even Mahantas
                                                  are permitted due to some hokey
                                                  negative atom ekplanation.


                                                  But, Eckists are in denial of the truth
                                                  as they continue to pretend they
                                                  are advanced Souls. The mind is
                                                  very powerful and that's why Eckankar
                                                  appears to work for Eckists. The
                                                  mind will give one the dreams
                                                  and "signs" that are programmed
                                                  into it via suggestion and expectation.
                                                  However, isn't this the modus
                                                  operandi of all religions? If one
                                                  just Googles "miracles" one can
                                                  see examples of faith and belief
                                                  that would put any Eckist to shame.

                                                  Therefore, why do Eckists not
                                                  see the truth? Is it that they
                                                  have tied up their camels, to
                                                  a fraudent belief, and now, trust
                                                  in a make believe God/Mahanta...
                                                  Klemp? It is the Easy Way!

                                                  Prometheus




                                                  etznab@... wrote:
                                                  I think a lot of people can overlook this stuff, thinking that whatever
                                                  Paul Twitchell said/wrote must be the truth. Some people just might not
                                                  care. Well, it's reasonable to suspect this talent - for promotion,
                                                  even when it means making things up, stretching the truth, or just
                                                  plain spinning lies - was used to "create" the Eckankar mythos.

                                                  myth

                                                  1830, from Gk. mythos "speech, thought, story, myth," of unknown origin.

                                                  Myths are "stories about divine beings, generally arranged in a
                                                  coherent system; they are revered as true and sacred; they are endorsed
                                                  by rulers and priests; and closely linked to religion. Once this link
                                                  is broken, and the actors in the story are not regarded as gods but as
                                                  human heroes, giants or fairies, it is no longer a myth but a folktale.
                                                  Where the central actor is divine but the story is trivial ... the
                                                  result is religious legend, not myth." [J. Simpson & S. Roud,
                                                  "Dictionary of English Folklore," Oxford, 2000, p.254]

                                                  General sense of "untrue story, rumor" is from 1840.

                                                  http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=mythos&searchmode=\
                                                  \
                                                  none

                                                  In other words, amid all the compilations and recycled material, etc.,
                                                  context has been changed (in various places) when it comes to source. I
                                                  wonder, could Paul Twitchell have created "Eckankar" and at the same
                                                  time given the source for all of his material? I noticed Kirpal Singh
                                                  and others were very good at citing references and sharing what
                                                  quote/saying came from who. So if Paul Twitchell ever chose to use
                                                  passages and paragraphs from books, Did he always feel obligated to
                                                  provide that information?

                                                  As a promoter, I suspect the person wants to give credit to whatever
                                                  they're promoting and not give more credit to "other products" instead.
                                                  It makes sense (to me) that Paul Twitchell would "paint the name
                                                  Eckankar" over so much material he had read (in so many words). Not
                                                  only this, but it even appears probable that Paul Twitchell took
                                                  liberty to respell and redefine words according to fit them in a new,
                                                  and growing, Eckankar philosophy. Not only words, but names too!

                                                  How extensive the promotion and PR campaign that created contemporary
                                                  Eckankar teaching? In so many ways, it seems this is the part that
                                                  doesn't agree with people. Not unless they knew from the beginning that
                                                  information was not necessarily accurate and in some places embellished.

                                                  embellish

                                                  mid-14c., "to render beautiful," from O.Fr. embelliss-, stem of
                                                  embellir "make beautiful, ornament," from em- (see en- (1)) + bel
                                                  "beautiful," from L. bellus (see bene-). Meaning "dress up (a
                                                  narration) with fictitious matter" is from mid-15c. Related:
                                                  Embellished; embellishing.

                                                  http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=embellished&search\
                                                  \
                                                  mode=none

                                                  Reading through early Eckankar books I think common sense might tell a
                                                  person that parts of the material was embellished. At the same time I
                                                  also think people could naturally so much want the material to be true
                                                  that they allow imagination to "make it so" and overrule common sense.

                                                  Ever observe what happens when you're part of a group where countless
                                                  individuals believe in things - through imagination - that aren't
                                                  necessarily true? I mean, when you're one of the unbelievers and part
                                                  of the minority who question whether so many imagined things are true?


                                                  -----Original Message-----
                                                  From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                                                  <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                                                  Sent: Sat, Sep 17, 2011 2:14 am
                                                  Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: "The Dark Side of ECKankar" -
                                                  And More!

                                                  Â
                                                  Hello Etznab and All,
                                                  This tells how Paul Twitchell
                                                  was His Own Drum Beater:

                                                  http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html

                                                  What's interesting is that at age 27 (1935)
                                                  Twitchell was saying that he had been
                                                  to India (supposedly at age 15 to meet
                                                  Rebazar for the first time, DOBTLEM).
                                                  However, Klemp points out that Twitchell
                                                  was doing another self-promotion, and
                                                  was lying in order to get into Who's Who
                                                  in Kentucky. Klemp states that Twitchell
                                                  had never been all that far from home
                                                  at age 27. Klemp seems to have stepped
                                                  into a big pile of Twits mess. HK's
                                                  statement contradicts what Twitchell
                                                  revealed in Difficulties of Becoming the
                                                  Living ECK Master circa July, 1971. This
                                                  1971 date is, supposedly, long after Twitchell
                                                  (the Mahanta) was was no longer "exaggerating"
                                                  and "twisting facts." However, as Klemp
                                                  has pointed out Twitchell was still lying
                                                  and promoting his con up until his untimely
                                                  and death in September, 1971.

                                                  Prometheus

                                                  etznab@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > Almost didn't see this response because the e-mail bounced.
                                                  >
                                                  > Umm ... about the self-promotion, whatever, people can read about
                                                  some of the history here.
                                                  >
                                                  > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html
                                                  >
                                                  > Check out 4th paragraph of article entitled: Paul's Seal of
                                                  Approval.
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                                                  "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Hello Etznab and All,
                                                  > > It is interesting that Twitchell
                                                  > > has his Rebazar character (the
                                                  > > "Master" who initiated him)
                                                  > > indicate that there were 8 Planes
                                                  > > just as Radhasomi and Ruhani
                                                  > > Satsang have listed in "The Path
                                                  > > of the Masters." Since Kirpal
                                                  > > Singh, of Ruhani Satsang, was
                                                  > > Paul's real life Master for ten years
                                                  > > it's no wonder that this dogma was
                                                  > > influential in the design of Eckankar.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Of course, Twitchell was constantly
                                                  > > tweaking, revising, and masking his
                                                  > > religious con as time went by.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > The Anami Lok (10th Plane where
                                                  > > "Sugmad" resides) didn't appear until
                                                  > > later. Did Rebazar simply forget to
                                                  > > mention this as well as the "Mahanta?"
                                                  > > Did RT think that Paul needed to be
                                                  > > spoon-fed and wasn't ready for this
                                                  > > advanced "spiritual" info? No, not really.
                                                  > > According to Twitchell he had been
                                                  > > given the 12th and "final initiation"
                                                  > > (to become LEM) back in 1951 by
                                                  > > Rebazar while on his "2nd" visit to
                                                  > > India. See, the timeline is off for this
                                                  > > ekplanation to be taken seriously as
                                                  > > well.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Therefore, there is no rational excuse
                                                  > > for these inconsistencies except to
                                                  > > admit that the "rascal" Twitchell was,
                                                  > > once again, "exaggerating" and "twisting
                                                  > > facts" as even Klemp has described
                                                  > > and said of him. Klemp, years ago,
                                                  > > had to admit that Twitchell was a self-
                                                  > > promoter and did or said whatever
                                                  > > he needed to do ("By Any Means Necessary")
                                                  > > in order to get Eckankar off the ground.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > This is why Klemp, at first, had a
                                                  > > difficult job of explaining Twitchell's
                                                  > > inconsistencies and needed to keep
                                                  > > Eckists confused, busy, and off-balance.
                                                  > > Now, Eckists are so brainwashed that
                                                  > > Klemp can say whatever in his simple
                                                  > > minded redundant versions of feel-good
                                                  > > New Age spirituality.
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Prometheus
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > etznab wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar
                                                  Tarzs
                                                  > > mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme.
                                                  Check the
                                                  > > index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with
                                                  the Master.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless
                                                  region,
                                                  > > [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called
                                                  THE FACE OF
                                                  > > GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying:
                                                  [Quoting]
                                                  > > "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the
                                                  light of
                                                  > > God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes
                                                  could not look
                                                  > > upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean
                                                  of Love
                                                  > > and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return
                                                  in time."
                                                  > > (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in
                                                  the House
                                                  > > of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens.
                                                  Ye cannot
                                                  > > go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with
                                                  my divine
                                                  > > self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in
                                                  the divine
                                                  > > cause!"
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the
                                                  Master, has
                                                  > > Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting
                                                  snippet]:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in
                                                  a
                                                  > > mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
                                                  > > attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
                                                  > > "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
                                                  after
                                                  > > this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul
                                                  reaches
                                                  > > the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or
                                                  the SUGMAD,
                                                  > > the supreme LORD of all that exists."
                                                  > >
                                                  > > http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the
                                                  description
                                                  > > slightly:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the
                                                  Sat Nam in
                                                  > > a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in
                                                  all Sat
                                                  > > Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the
                                                  three
                                                  > > remaining known planes.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha,
                                                  and
                                                  > > after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam
                                                  Purusha, or
                                                  > > lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region
                                                  of the
                                                  > > nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first
                                                  you know
                                                  > > about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the
                                                  Divine.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."
                                                  > >
                                                  > > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is
                                                  illustrated (by
                                                  > > Paul Twitchell) slightly different.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam
                                                  Lok.
                                                  > > Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the
                                                  end of its
                                                  > > journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the
                                                  supreme
                                                  > > lord of all that exists."
                                                  > >
                                                  > > http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html
                                                  > >
                                                  > > The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok,
                                                  Alak Lok,
                                                  > > Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with
                                                  Ocean of
                                                  > > Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip
                                                  mention of
                                                  > > Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master,
                                                  Introduction to
                                                  > > Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes
                                                  similarly, and
                                                  > > in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain
                                                  sections from
                                                  > > The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit
                                                  is
                                                  > > expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal,
                                                  Nirala,
                                                  > > Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
                                                  > > Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country
                                                  > >
                                                  > > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                                  > >
                                                  > > "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many
                                                  words, such
                                                  > > as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala,
                                                  Anami, Agam,
                                                  > > Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar,
                                                  Parameshwar,
                                                  > > Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters
                                                  > >
                                                  > > http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent
                                                  from the
                                                  > > Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR
                                                  vs.
                                                  > > Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian
                                                  Johnson's book,
                                                  > > The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The
                                                  Far
                                                  > > Country, by at least three decades!
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word,
                                                  trademarked
                                                  > > it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is
                                                  somehow more
                                                  > > than a paraphrase.
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