Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

"The Dark Side of ECKankar"

Expand Messages
  • starshine917
    I recently read The Dark Side of ECKankar from your web site. Needless to say I was shocked because I am currently an ECKist. I m interested to know why the
    Message 1 of 24 , Feb 11, 2011
    • 0 Attachment
      I recently read "The Dark Side of ECKankar" from your web site. Needless to say I was shocked because I am currently an ECKist. I'm interested to know why the information presented was concluded as it was in representation of something so dark, and fear based. These are pretty serious allegations.

      I'd like for you to reach out to me via email because I'm interested in further investigation but only if that is acceptable to you. I'd like to stick to the facts and evidence.
    • Rosemarie Bucci
      I m new to this group. First I d like to say thank you for those of you who are searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
      Message 2 of 24 , Feb 11, 2011
      • 0 Attachment
        I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who are searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar. I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues. We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table.
         
        I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because I'd raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely objective. For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
         
        I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on the facts. I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking. Do you?
         


        Looking for earth-friendly autos?
        Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.
      • prometheus_973
        Hello and welcome to the group, First, I don t believe in demonic possession. This link was put up because it s another perspective of Eckankar. Take it with a
        Message 3 of 24 , Feb 11, 2011
        • 0 Attachment
          Hello and welcome to the group,

          First, I don't believe in demonic possession.
          This link was put up because it's another
          perspective of Eckankar. Take it with a grain
          of salt. But, the article does bring up some
          interesting topics and perspectives.

          For one thing it mentions that Darwin Gross
          was Klemp's (our) Master for ten years and
          yet his name is/was forbidden to speak. Plus,
          Klemp never mentioned Gross' death, although,
          he was an ECK Master, passed Harry the Rod,
          and was the 972nd (2nd) LEM, thus, making
          HK the 973rd (3rd) LEM.

          Anyway, why pick and choose this one article?
          How about the other Messages and dialogue?
          Did you read the FILES or look at the other LINKS?

          When you've looked at a few these other sources
          of information perhaps you can pose some questions
          pertaining to what we've written or commented upon?

          BTW-Mahanta means "missionary head." It was
          an obscure word that Twit found and decided
          to use for his newly created title.

          I didn't read the entire article of "The Dark Side
          of Eckankar" because much of it, IMO, is some
          sort of a fanatical exaggeration. Eckankar is
          merely a fraud and another religious scam for
          weak minded individuals and needs no "demonizing."
          The Truth is Klemp's real enemy, but who can
          disprove religious B.S. when people desperately
          need to believe. Everyone needs hope, but religions
          abuse and distort for profit and power.

          What do you think of that Negative Atom/Battery
          excuse as to why females can't become the LEM?
          Isn't this another silly excuse to keep women in
          their place? Sure! And, yet, look at how stupid this
          ekplanation is... but it's accepted. What else is a
          lie? Actually, everything!

          Prometheus

          Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
          >
          > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who are
          > searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
          > findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
          > thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar. I am not here to
          > defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues. We are all
          > affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we have allot to
          > bring to the table.
          >  
          > I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
          > called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
          > site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because I'd
          > raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
          > well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
          > complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
          > thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely objective.
          > For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
          > paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
          >  
          > I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
          > within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on the
          > facts. I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
          > the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
          > belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking. Do
          > you?
        • etznab@aol.com
          You were referring to: The DARK SIDE of ECKANKAR by Ruth and Noah Samuelson. I believe it s necessary to mention that. Along with a link.
          Message 4 of 24 , Feb 12, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            You were referring to: The DARK SIDE of ECKANKAR by Ruth and Noah
            Samuelson. I believe it's necessary to mention that. Along with a link.

            http://www.scribd.com/doc/8967961/The-DARK-SIDE-of-ECKANKAR-by-Ruth-and-Noah-Samuelson

            Evidently, this was not a paper written by members of this group. And I
            doubt they are / were ever members of Eckankar.

            This literature by the Samuelson's was mentioned on a website called
            eckankartruth as early as October 10th, 2008. I don't know when the
            subject might have been discussed here at ESA. You can do a search on
            both sites, however, and maybe find some of the feedback you're looking
            for there.

            If it's something that you are really interested in, maybe check what
            already has been said about it first.

            -----Original Message-----
            From: starshine917 <rblustar@...>
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
            <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:45 am
            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] "The Dark Side of ECKankar"

             
            I recently read "The Dark Side of ECKankar" from your web site.
            Needless to say I was shocked because I am currently an ECKist. I'm
            interested to know why the information presented was concluded as it
            was in representation of something so dark, and fear based. These are
            pretty serious allegations.

            I'd like for you to reach out to me via email because I'm interested in
            further investigation but only if that is acceptable to you. I'd like
            to stick to the facts and evidence.
          • etznab@aol.com
            A lot of religious dogma consists of legends, myths and fables. IMO. Any fables included in the Eckankar dogma prior to the current leadership could be hard to
            Message 5 of 24 , Feb 12, 2011
            • 0 Attachment
              A lot of religious dogma consists of legends,
              myths and fables. IMO.

              Any fables included in the Eckankar dogma
              prior to the current leadership could be hard
              to extract from official dogma. IMO. Granted
              they would be well known via books & talks
              over the years. And they could be believed -
              even literally - by hundreds, or thousands of
              people.

              Here is something the current leader said in
              the early 1980's after becoming the L.E.M.

              "Paul [Paul Twitchell] encouraged people to
              read The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad and make their
              own study. He never said to take the words as
              holy, as the last word. You take the words and
              check out the teachings from within. You ask:
              Does this work for me or doesn't it? You have
              to know. [....]"

              http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/writings.html#ideal

              This was around the time where Harold Klemp
              started talking about Death of an Ideal.

              If a person turns to the introduction section for
              The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, Vol. 1, they can read
              what Paul Twitchell said, compare it with what
              Harold Klemp said, and judge for theirself.

              IMO, fables abound in the Eckankar writings.
              Even in the Shariyat. The challenge comes if
              a person wants to know fact from fiction. The
              creator, author necessary to determine where
              it came from.

              Paul Twitchell was already deceased by the
              time I ever heard of Eckankar. And after him
              Darwin Gross was sent packing (iow). The
              wife of them both is where? I don't know. So
              the people who originally crafted the legends,
              myth, fables, etc., into "Eckankar" writings
              (and those who knew about the crafting) are
              not easy to come by, if you ask me. Neither
              are the original manuscripts and early books
              by Paul Twitchell & Eckankar.

              This is what is necessary, though, for a true
              record of fabrications (IMO). And even after
              the eye-witnesses, or those in the know are
              summoned, things would depend on whether
              they told the truth about what they know!

              Will it ever happen? Will religions (including
              "Eckankar") admit where the fictional parts
              of their teachings came from? Separating
              fact from fiction (with clarity), for the benefit
              of all members who desire the truth? Will we
              ever see the old original manuscripts?

              What happens when the "creators" - and no
              matter who they are - What happens when
              some of the material was borrowed from an-
              other source? Another who borrowed it from
              another before them? And on and on? with
              each writer / religion changing the story at
              will? How does locate the truth in that case?
              Via imagination? :) :) :)

              So not all of the stories are traceable to orig-
              inal sources. IMO. However, many of them
              are. Especially considering a young vs. old
              religion.

              Add to this all of the writers adding more
              "fabulous" material to the history of religion,
              the spin-off groups, etc. etc. and it becomes
              a real miasma.






              -----Original Message-----
              From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
              <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:27 am
              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: "The Dark Side of ECKankar"

               
              Hello and welcome to the group,

              First, I don't believe in demonic possession.
              This link was put up because it's another
              perspective of Eckankar. Take it with a grain
              of salt. But, the article does bring up some
              interesting topics and perspectives.

              For one thing it mentions that Darwin Gross
              was Klemp's (our) Master for ten years and
              yet his name is/was forbidden to speak. Plus,
              Klemp never mentioned Gross' death, although,
              he was an ECK Master, passed Harry the Rod,
              and was the 972nd (2nd) LEM, thus, making
              HK the 973rd (3rd) LEM.

              Anyway, why pick and choose this one article?
              How about the other Messages and dialogue?
              Did you read the FILES or look at the other LINKS?

              When you've looked at a few these other sources
              of information perhaps you can pose some questions
              pertaining to what we've written or commented upon?

              BTW-Mahanta means "missionary head." It was
              an obscure word that Twit found and decided
              to use for his newly created title.

              I didn't read the entire article of "The Dark Side
              of Eckankar" because much of it, IMO, is some
              sort of a fanatical exaggeration. Eckankar is
              merely a fraud and another religious scam for
              weak minded individuals and needs no "demonizing."
              The Truth is Klemp's real enemy, but who can
              disprove religious B.S. when people desperately
              need to believe. Everyone needs hope, but religions
              abuse and distort for profit and power.

              What do you think of that Negative Atom/Battery
              excuse as to why females can't become the LEM?
              Isn't this another silly excuse to keep women in
              their place? Sure! And, yet, look at how stupid this
              ekplanation is... but it's accepted. What else is a
              lie? Actually, everything!

              Prometheus

              Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
              >
              > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those
              of you who are
              > searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for
              sharing your
              > findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the
              "light" of critical
              > thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar. I am
              not here to
              > defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues. We are
              all
              > affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
              have allot to
              > bring to the table.
              >  
              > I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique
              used in this paper
              > called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links"
              in this web
              > site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of
              challenge because I'd
              > raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this
              paper as
              > well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be
              painted with
              > complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of
              critical
              > thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being
              completely objective.
              > For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack
              ECKankar in this
              > paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they
              originated.
              >  
              > I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure
              is overdo
              > within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is
              based on the
              > facts. I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I
              don't think
              > the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within
              one religious
              > belief system and exchange them for another in the name of
              critical thinking. Do
              > you?
            • prometheus_973
              Hello Etznab and All, The problem with what Klemp said early on about interpreting the Shariyat for yourself, on a Soul level I suppose, is that this changed
              Message 6 of 24 , Feb 12, 2011
              • 0 Attachment
                Hello Etznab and All,
                The problem with what Klemp said
                early on about interpreting the Shariyat
                for yourself, on a Soul level I suppose,
                is that this changed over the years.
                It doesn't matter if you pick and choose
                what works for you because that's not
                how it's done anymore. These are "Holy
                Books" and one can't rewrite or reinterpret
                what an ECK Master wrote unless you
                are an ECK Master... Catch-22! Klemp,
                today, has to approve, in writing
                or in a talk, what anyone can believe
                or say officially. Everything, now, is
                regulated with Guidelines including
                EWS topics.

                ECKists can't share their dreams if that
                dream would contradict EK Dogma or
                (seemingly) challenge HK's authority
                or his opinions etc. Look at what happened
                to Graham. He had a dream where a
                Silent One allowed him to hold the Rod
                of ECK Power. This infuriated Klemp and
                Graham was demoted to a 1st Initiate
                and Ford was disciplined for bringing
                this matter to Klemp's attention in the
                first place. However, Klemp has always
                had a temper and been a poor sport
                and has found it difficult to let go of
                anger. This is why HK never forgave
                Darwin and didn't mention his death.
                Even to this day Klemp can't deal with
                his anger and tends to hold onto grudges.

                What's really amusing is that Klemp took
                the bait in regards to Graham and over-
                reacted as Ford surmised he would. If
                Klemp had just ignored it or said that
                Graham was mistaken with what had
                happened or that the "Rod" was a mock
                up etc. or was a symbol of something else
                blah blah blah then that would have been
                the end of it. Plus, Graham was a bit out-
                of-balance to begin with so no harm no foul.
                But, that's not how it played out because
                Klemp is a Spiritual fraud and conman much
                like his Christian counterparts are of course.

                Prometheus

                etznab wrote:

                A lot of religious dogma consists of legends,
                myths and fables. IMO.

                Any fables included in the Eckankar dogma
                prior to the current leadership could be hard
                to extract from official dogma. IMO. Granted
                they would be well known via books & talks
                over the years. And they could be believed -
                even literally - by hundreds, or thousands of
                people.

                Here is something the current leader said in
                the early 1980's after becoming the L.E.M.

                "Paul [Paul Twitchell] encouraged people to
                read The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad and make their
                own study. He never said to take the words as
                holy, as the last word. You take the words and
                check out the teachings from within. You ask:
                Does this work for me or doesn't it? You have
                to know. [....]"

                http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/writings.html#ideal

                This was around the time where Harold Klemp
                started talking about Death of an Ideal.

                If a person turns to the introduction section for
                The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, Vol. 1, they can read
                what Paul Twitchell said, compare it with what
                Harold Klemp said, and judge for theirself.

                IMO, fables abound in the Eckankar writings.
                Even in the Shariyat. The challenge comes if
                a person wants to know fact from fiction. The
                creator, author necessary to determine where
                it came from.

                Paul Twitchell was already deceased by the
                time I ever heard of Eckankar. And after him
                Darwin Gross was sent packing (iow). The
                wife of them both is where? I don't know. So
                the people who originally crafted the legends,
                myth, fables, etc., into "Eckankar" writings
                (and those who knew about the crafting) are
                not easy to come by, if you ask me. Neither
                are the original manuscripts and early books
                by Paul Twitchell & Eckankar.

                This is what is necessary, though, for a true
                record of fabrications (IMO). And even after
                the eye-witnesses, or those in the know are
                summoned, things would depend on whether
                they told the truth about what they know!

                Will it ever happen? Will religions (including
                "Eckankar") admit where the fictional parts
                of their teachings came from? Separating
                fact from fiction (with clarity), for the benefit
                of all members who desire the truth? Will we
                ever see the old original manuscripts?

                What happens when the "creators" - and no
                matter who they are - What happens when
                some of the material was borrowed from an-
                other source? Another who borrowed it from
                another before them? And on and on? with
                each writer / religion changing the story at
                will? How does locate the truth in that case?
                Via imagination? :) :) :)

                So not all of the stories are traceable to orig-
                inal sources. IMO. However, many of them
                are. Especially considering a young vs. old
                religion.

                Add to this all of the writers adding more
                "fabulous" material to the history of religion,
                the spin-off groups, etc. etc. and it becomes
                a real miasma.






                prometheus wrote:
                Hello and welcome to the group,

                First, I don't believe in demonic possession.
                This link was put up because it's another
                perspective of Eckankar. Take it with a grain
                of salt. But, the article does bring up some
                interesting topics and perspectives.

                For one thing it mentions that Darwin Gross
                was Klemp's (our) Master for ten years and
                yet his name is/was forbidden to speak. Plus,
                Klemp never mentioned Gross' death, although,
                he was an ECK Master, passed Harry the Rod,
                and was the 972nd (2nd) LEM, thus, making
                HK the 973rd (3rd) LEM.

                Anyway, why pick and choose this one article?
                How about the other Messages and dialogue?
                Did you read the FILES or look at the other LINKS?

                When you've looked at a few these other sources
                of information perhaps you can pose some questions
                pertaining to what we've written or commented upon?

                BTW-Mahanta means "missionary head." It was
                an obscure word that Twit found and decided
                to use for his newly created title.

                I didn't read the entire article of "The Dark Side
                of Eckankar" because much of it, IMO, is some
                sort of a fanatical exaggeration. Eckankar is
                merely a fraud and another religious scam for
                weak minded individuals and needs no "demonizing."
                The Truth is Klemp's real enemy, but who can
                disprove religious B.S. when people desperately
                need to believe. Everyone needs hope, but religions
                abuse and distort for profit and power.

                What do you think of that Negative Atom/Battery
                excuse as to why females can't become the LEM?
                Isn't this another silly excuse to keep women in
                their place? Sure! And, yet, look at how stupid this
                ekplanation is... but it's accepted. What else is a
                lie? Actually, everything!

                Prometheus

                Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
                >
                > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those
                of you who are
                > searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for
                sharing your
                > findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the
                "light"Â of critical
                > thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar. I am
                not here to
                > defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues. We are
                all
                > affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
                have allot to
                > bring to the table.
                > Â
                > I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique
                used in this paper
                > called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links"
                in this web
                > site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of
                challenge because I'd
                > raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this
                paper as
                > well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be
                painted with
                > complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of
                critical
                > thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being
                completely objective.
                > For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack
                ECKankar in this
                > paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they
                originated.
                > Â
                > I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure
                is overdo
                > within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is
                based on the
                > facts. I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I
                don't think
                > the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within
                one religious
                > belief system and exchange them for another in the name of
                critical thinking. Do
                > you?
              • dianastanley43
                Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from personal
                Message 7 of 24 , Feb 13, 2011
                • 0 Attachment
                  Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time. If it is hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew and was their experience I also say.
                  Diana Stanley

                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Rosemarie Bucci <rblustar@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who are
                  > searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
                  > findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
                  > thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar. I am not here to
                  > defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues. We are all
                  > affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we have allot to
                  > bring to the table.
                  >  
                  > I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
                  > called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
                  > site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because I'd
                  > raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
                  > well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
                  > complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
                  > thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely objective.
                  > For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
                  > paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
                  >  
                  > I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
                  > within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on the
                  > facts. I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
                  > the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
                  > belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking. Do
                  > you?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ____________________________________________________________________________________
                  > Looking for earth-friendly autos?
                  > Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.
                  > http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
                  >
                • prometheus_973
                  Hello Rosemarie, There will be no email debate or ekplanation of this article. I don t agree with it entirely, but there are real facts and evidence,
                  Message 8 of 24 , Feb 13, 2011
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hello Rosemarie,
                    There will be no email debate or ekplanation
                    of this article. I don't agree with it entirely,
                    but there are real facts and evidence, elsewhere,
                    that shows Eckankar is "dark and fear based."

                    After all, Klemp was/is the real "Black Magician"
                    versus Darwin Gross.

                    Read Chapter 7 of "Soul Travelers of the Far
                    Country," if you can find the book, and you
                    will see Klemp's ego speaking and how that
                    he repeatedly states that he worked in a Sound
                    Proof Dark Room at the ESC. And, it was Klemp's
                    idea for Darwin to meet with him, in private,
                    in the Sound Proof Dark Room (in the photo
                    department) where Klemp worked daily. Darwin
                    "hesitated" [pg.409 Autobiography of a Modern
                    Prophet] to meet there when Klemp suggested
                    that they should talk in private in the Dark Room
                    that was also Sound Proofed (by the last building
                    owner). Thus, it was symbolic that the ECK (Light
                    & Sound) was Not present during the discussion
                    of Klemp's transition to become the 973rd LEM.
                    It's absence, the ECK, was due to Klemp and Not
                    to Darwin. Thus, Klemp was looking into the mirror
                    when he, later, referred to Darwin as being the
                    Black Magician. And, not being able to forgive
                    Darwin for his imperfections, even after all of
                    these years, is more proof that Klemp is holding
                    onto Negativity and this is evidence that he is
                    of the KAL and is a Liar, Trickster, Deceiver,
                    and, thus, a Black Magician!

                    Most of the "fear" inside Eckankar comes via
                    the RESA structure. ECKists fear that they can
                    be Black Listed on Initiations by giving their
                    real opinions and impressions of Klemp's
                    articles and of the strict Guidelines they are
                    to follow without question. They can't criticize
                    (even constructively) because this is seen as
                    negativity and that is of the KAL. Except, they
                    forget, the KAL is the ruler of the Lower Planes
                    (assigned by Sugmad) and Eckankar is a 1st
                    Physical Plane religion/organization and is
                    based upon, written, Mental Plane books,
                    talks, rules & laws, guidelines, discourses,
                    etc.

                    Plus, "questions" are also discouraged as well.
                    ECKists are to take it to the "inner" if they have
                    too many questions, but the Catch-22 is that
                    their "inner (Soul) answers" have to comply with
                    the Lower Plane outer limitations of the EK Dogma,
                    the scrutiny of the RESA, and of the EK Guidelines.
                    Basically, an ECKist (Soul) cannot have an "official"
                    opinion or a "valid" spiritual experience (that can
                    be shared in public), unless, Klemp gives his verbal
                    or written approval. As I pointed out before, look
                    at what happened to Graham. He had a dream where
                    a Silent One showed up and Graham HUed to verify
                    that this was a Silent One and not an Astral entity
                    playing tricks upon him. The Silent One passed the
                    HU test and told Graham his name and then allowed
                    Graham to hold the Rod of ECK Power to see how it
                    felt. However, Klemp had a problem with this "dream"
                    and felt threatened by this new Third Initiate. LOL!
                    Thus, Klemp demoted Graham to a 1st Initiate for
                    sharing his "dream" with others! Graham wasn't trying
                    to take over or to challenge Klemp... it was just
                    a dream! It wasn't his fault for having such a dream
                    was it? What if other ECKists had a similar dream?
                    Now, they all know Not to share it, don't they, for fear
                    of being demoted!


                    Prometheus

                    starshine wrote:

                    I recently read "The Dark Side of ECKankar" from your web site. Needless to say
                    I was shocked because I am currently an ECKist. I'm interested to know why the
                    information presented was concluded as it was in representation of something so
                    dark, and fear based. These are pretty serious allegations.

                    I'd like for you to reach out to me via email because I'm interested in further
                    investigation but only if that is acceptable to you. I'd like to stick to the
                    facts and evidence.
                  • Rosemarie Bucci
                    Hi Diana, I ve had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this path. I have read David Lane s book and Ford Johnson s book as
                    Message 9 of 24 , Feb 14, 2011
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hi Diana,
                      I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth is truth and will always be the truth.
                       
                      I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember, we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
                       
                      I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must be brave and remain in truth.
                      Thank you for getting back to me.
                      Rosemarie


                      TV dinner still cooling?
                      Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.
                    • prometheus_973
                      Hello Rosemarie, I am a seeker of Truth as well. And yes, this article on The Dark Side of Eckankar is inaccurate, but there is a dark side to Eckankar and
                      Message 10 of 24 , Feb 15, 2011
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hello Rosemarie,
                        I am a seeker of Truth as well.
                        And yes, this article on "The Dark
                        Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
                        there is a dark side to Eckankar and
                        there is also fear.

                        I find it interesting that you've
                        read (and I assume have contemplated
                        upon) David Lane's research as well as
                        Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
                        and have, still, remained an ECKist.

                        What happened to your "critical thinking?"
                        Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
                        you agree with some of it but not all of
                        it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
                        I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
                        isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
                        what they believe than any other religion
                        they've found. Is that the case with you?

                        I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
                        book, threw it away (because of the bad
                        vibes), and then placed themselves upon
                        pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
                        and talk Eckists through their doubts and
                        concerns.

                        You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
                        not all truth is the same. That's why there
                        are so many churches. People are social
                        animals and tend to seek out others with
                        similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
                        to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
                        to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
                        and a test for Soul.

                        I also got the impression that you don't
                        participate much within the RESA structure.
                        Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
                        Do you know that you have to watch what
                        you say? You've observed and learned that
                        correct? You do care about being promoted
                        to that next initiation right?

                        Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
                        take on the subjects that we've been discussing
                        here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
                        lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
                        for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
                        Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
                        when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
                        "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
                        detectors just for his talk?

                        You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues. 
                        We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
                        at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."

                        BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
                        read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?

                        Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
                        the table.

                        Prometheus

                        rosemarie wrote:
                        Hi Diana,

                        I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth is truth and will always be the truth.

                        I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember, we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.

                        I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must be brave and remain in truth.

                        Thank you for getting back to me.
                        Rosemarie


                        dianastanley wrote:

                        Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time. If it is hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew and was their experience I also say.

                        Diana Stanley

                        Rosemarie Bucci wrote:

                        I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who are
                        searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
                        findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
                        thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.

                        I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues. 
                        We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
                        have allot to bring to the table.
                         
                        I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
                        called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
                        site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because I'd
                        raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
                        well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
                        complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
                        thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely objective.
                        For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
                        paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
                         
                        I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
                        within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on the
                        facts.

                        I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
                        the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
                        belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking.
                        Do you?
                      • dianastanley43
                        Rosemarie you are quite right. I started with Eckankar and ended up studing quantum Physics What I finally came to the conclusion of was if you were sitting in
                        Message 11 of 24 , Feb 17, 2011
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Rosemarie you are quite right. I started with Eckankar and ended up studing quantum Physics What I finally came to the conclusion of was if you were sitting in you living room you didn't need a spiritual path to find your living room. It has not been an easy journy as I was loath to give up the idea of the mystical and magical and I traveled many paths in the 30 yrs after leaving Eckankar. One day I read a quote that changed my belief system of years. "God did'nt create the universe God became the universe. It's interesting that when the time is right I might understand something that a few yrs earlier would not have ment anything.
                          Diana

                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Rosemarie Bucci <rblustar@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi Diana,
                          > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this
                          > path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been
                          > to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that
                          > honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth
                          > is truth and will always be the truth.
                          >
                          >  
                          > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we
                          > follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching
                          > which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember,
                          > we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to
                          > bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
                          >
                          >  
                          > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts
                          > sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must
                          > be brave and remain in truth.
                          > Thank you for gettingback to me.
                          > Rosemarie
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ____________________________________________________________________________________
                          > It's here! Your new message!
                          > Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar.
                          > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/
                          >
                        • Avonblue
                          Diana and All, I came to eckankar back in the 70 s because I felt religion was an abomination and the lure of free exploration of our spiritual self was truly
                          Message 12 of 24 , Feb 18, 2011
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Diana and All,

                            I came to eckankar back in the 70's because I felt religion was an abomination and the lure of free exploration of our spiritual self was truly revolutionary. Eckankar eventually failed to be the magical mystical carpet ride it was purported to be but instead a rehash and reinvention of eastern and western mumbo jumbo recreated by a charlatan. I too have explored quantum physics and especially the advances in neuroscience over the past several years and have come to the belief that "spirituality" and for the that matter "god" is nothing more than misunderstood and undiscovered as of yet science.

                            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "dianastanley43" <dianastanley43@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Rosemarie you are quite right. I started with Eckankar and ended up studing quantum Physics What I finally came to the conclusion of was if you were sitting in you living room you didn't need a spiritual path to find your living room. It has not been an easy journy as I was loath to give up the idea of the mystical and magical and I traveled many paths in the 30 yrs after leaving Eckankar. One day I read a quote that changed my belief system of years. "God did'nt create the universe God became the universe. It's interesting that when the time is right I might understand something that a few yrs earlier would not have ment anything.
                            > Diana
                            >
                            > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Rosemarie Bucci <rblustar@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Hi Diana,
                            > > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this
                            > > path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been
                            > > to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that
                            > > honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth
                            > > is truth and will always be the truth.
                            > >
                            > >  
                            > > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we
                            > > follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching
                            > > which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember,
                            > > we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to
                            > > bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
                            > >
                            > >  
                            > > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts
                            > > sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must
                            > > be brave and remain in truth.
                            > > Thank you for gettingback to me.
                            > > Rosemarie
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > ____________________________________________________________________________________
                            > > It's here! Your new message!
                            > > Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar.
                            > > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/
                            > >
                            >
                          • prometheus_973
                            Hello Avonblue and All, I was first introduced to the quantum physics/mechanics/ field theory scam via Maharishi of TM fame. Adam Dreamhealer and many other
                            Message 13 of 24 , Feb 21, 2011
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hello Avonblue and All,
                              I was first introduced to the
                              "quantum physics/mechanics/
                              field theory" scam via Maharishi
                              of TM fame. Adam Dreamhealer
                              and many other scammers have
                              used and abused this theory
                              to explain how their brand of
                              whatever works. I'm surprised
                              that Klemp hasn't used this hook
                              in order to combine science and
                              spirituality.

                              It is quite interesting how Klemp
                              gradually became "the" God/Mahanta.

                              And, even though he has stated,
                              "don't worship me" he has Eckists
                              stare at his picture and chant HU.

                              Plus, he has them dream of him
                              and beseech him with requests,
                              questions, help, protection, and
                              for healing. So, HK instructs Eckists
                              to pray to him (the Mahanta), but
                              says he's not to be worshipped.
                              How's that work? Of course he's
                              worshipped!

                              And, who or what is "worshipped" by
                              Eckists at ECK Worship Services (EWS)?
                              Is it the ECK? Klemp claims to be that
                              too, or is it the Mahanta or both?
                              So, on the "outer" Klemp is the leader
                              (LEM) of Eckankar and on the "inner"
                              he claims to be the ECK and the Mahanta.
                              But wouldn't he, also, be the ECK and
                              the Mahanta on the "outer" as well?
                              This is where/how Klemp tricks ECKists
                              into worshipping him. He's everything
                              and claims to be levels higher than the
                              God that other religions worship. Yet,
                              just like Twitchell fooled people, Klemp
                              does the same. Telling ECKists not to
                              worship him is a disclaimer so that he
                              can avoid responsibility.

                              It's really laughable that older ECKists
                              turned their backs on the religion of
                              their parents because "God" never answered
                              their prayers, etc. Now, they've substituted
                              Klemp for Jesus or Moses or who and what
                              ever. How stupid is that!

                              Strange that Sugmad isn't worshipped
                              at these EWS events and neither is God.
                              God is discussed some, but a real Eckist
                              knows that "God" is code for the Mahanta,
                              or the KAL, it depends. So, who/what is
                              worshipped? The ECK? That's Klemp too!
                              Klemp, in one way or the other is always
                              the main focus! Really, who does the Mahanta
                              look like? And, yet, do Eckists really think
                              about what they are really doing when they
                              worship, pray HU, contemplate upon, dream,
                              and beseech "the" Mahanta/ECK (Klemp)
                              for help? Apparently not!

                              Prometheus


                              Avonblue wrote:
                              Diana and All,

                              I came to eckankar back in the 70's because I felt religion was an abomination
                              and the lure of free exploration of our spiritual self was truly revolutionary.
                              Eckankar eventually failed to be the magical mystical carpet ride it was
                              purported to be but instead a rehash and reinvention of eastern and western
                              mumbo jumbo recreated by a charlatan. I too have explored quantum physics and
                              especially the advances in neuroscience over the past several years and have
                              come to the belief that "spirituality" and for the that matter "god" is nothing
                              more than misunderstood and undiscovered as of yet science.

                              dianastanley43"
                              dianastanley43@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Rosemarie you are quite right. I started with Eckankar and ended up studing
                              quantum Physics What I finally came to the conclusion of was if you were sitting
                              in you living room you didn't need a spiritual path to find your living room. It
                              has not been an easy journy as I was loath to give up the idea of the mystical
                              and magical and I traveled many paths in the 30 yrs after leaving Eckankar. One
                              day I read a quote that changed my belief system of years. "God did'nt create
                              the universe God became the universe. It's interesting that when the time is
                              right I might understand something that a few yrs earlier would not have ment
                              anything.
                              > Diana
                              >
                              Rosemarie Bucci <rblustar wrote:

                              Hi Diana,
                              I've had lots of experiences before
                              my journey into eckankar and while on
                              this path. I have read David Lane's book
                              and Ford Johnson's book as well.

                              I've been to eck satsangs, eck book
                              discussions and eck seminars also.
                              I agree that honesty is essential the
                              name of GOD on all levels.

                              I also understand that truth is truth
                              and will always be the truth.

                              I think it's important to remain open
                              and honest regardless of what path we
                              follow and to be there for one another
                              as much as we can. We are all searching
                              which is wonderful.

                              Therefore, we are not wrong in doing
                              so and let's remember, we all have each
                              other to try to put all this in perspective.
                              We have so much to bring to one another
                              on our many different levels of knowledge
                              and experience.

                              I know we'll get through this some day
                              and be stronger for it even if it hurts
                              sometimes. If we are to stand before
                              GOD and try to journey back to GOD,
                              we must be brave and remain in truth.



                              Prometheus: But there is no Truth
                              in Eckankar nor in any religion. It's
                              desperation, fear, lies, myth (stories),
                              imagination, pretend, and delusion!



                              Thank you for getting back to me.
                              Rosemarie
                            • dianastanley43
                              ... Diana
                              Message 14 of 24 , Feb 21, 2011
                              • 0 Attachment
                                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                > Paul commissioned me to do a sculpture of him so the Eckist would have something to focus on,I quess it was supposed to compete with jesus on the cross, any way he died befor it was finished and the stature fell apart befor I could make a mold of it. I thought Paul destroyed when he died as a lot of hi's at the time felt that. Acually it was bad craftsmanship on my part. I have to say it was pretty neat, he was sitting on a stool looking holy.
                                Diana
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Hello Avonblue and All,
                                > I was first introduced to the
                                > "quantum physics/mechanics/
                                > field theory" scam via Maharishi
                                > of TM fame. Adam Dreamhealer
                                > and many other scammers have
                                > used and abused this theory
                                > to explain how their brand of
                                > whatever works. I'm surprised
                                > that Klemp hasn't used this hook
                                > in order to combine science and
                                > spirituality.
                                >
                                > It is quite interesting how Klemp
                                > gradually became "the" God/Mahanta.
                                >
                                > And, even though he has stated,
                                > "don't worship me" he has Eckists
                                > stare at his picture and chant HU.
                                >
                                > Plus, he has them dream of him
                                > and beseech him with requests,
                                > questions, help, protection, and
                                > for healing. So, HK instructs Eckists
                                > to pray to him (the Mahanta), but
                                > says he's not to be worshipped.
                                > How's that work? Of course he's
                                > worshipped!
                                >
                                > And, who or what is "worshipped" by
                                > Eckists at ECK Worship Services (EWS)?
                                > Is it the ECK? Klemp claims to be that
                                > too, or is it the Mahanta or both?
                                > So, on the "outer" Klemp is the leader
                                > (LEM) of Eckankar and on the "inner"
                                > he claims to be the ECK and the Mahanta.
                                > But wouldn't he, also, be the ECK and
                                > the Mahanta on the "outer" as well?
                                > This is where/how Klemp tricks ECKists
                                > into worshipping him. He's everything
                                > and claims to be levels higher than the
                                > God that other religions worship. Yet,
                                > just like Twitchell fooled people, Klemp
                                > does the same. Telling ECKists not to
                                > worship him is a disclaimer so that he
                                > can avoid responsibility.
                                >
                                > It's really laughable that older ECKists
                                > turned their backs on the religion of
                                > their parents because "God" never answered
                                > their prayers, etc. Now, they've substituted
                                > Klemp for Jesus or Moses or who and what
                                > ever. How stupid is that!
                                >
                                > Strange that Sugmad isn't worshipped
                                > at these EWS events and neither is God.
                                > God is discussed some, but a real Eckist
                                > knows that "God" is code for the Mahanta,
                                > or the KAL, it depends. So, who/what is
                                > worshipped? The ECK? That's Klemp too!
                                > Klemp, in one way or the other is always
                                > the main focus! Really, who does the Mahanta
                                > look like? And, yet, do Eckists really think
                                > about what they are really doing when they
                                > worship, pray HU, contemplate upon, dream,
                                > and beseech "the" Mahanta/ECK (Klemp)
                                > for help? Apparently not!
                                >
                                > Prometheus
                                >
                                >
                                > Avonblue wrote:
                                > Diana and All,
                                >
                                > I came to eckankar back in the 70's because I felt religion was an abomination
                                > and the lure of free exploration of our spiritual self was truly revolutionary.
                                > Eckankar eventually failed to be the magical mystical carpet ride it was
                                > purported to be but instead a rehash and reinvention of eastern and western
                                > mumbo jumbo recreated by a charlatan. I too have explored quantum physics and
                                > especially the advances in neuroscience over the past several years and have
                                > come to the belief that "spirituality" and for the that matter "god" is nothing
                                > more than misunderstood and undiscovered as of yet science.
                                >
                                > dianastanley43"
                                > dianastanley43@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Rosemarie you are quite right. I started with Eckankar and ended up studing
                                > quantum Physics What I finally came to the conclusion of was if you were sitting
                                > in you living room you didn't need a spiritual path to find your living room. It
                                > has not been an easy journy as I was loath to give up the idea of the mystical
                                > and magical and I traveled many paths in the 30 yrs after leaving Eckankar. One
                                > day I read a quote that changed my belief system of years. "God did'nt create
                                > the universe God became the universe. It's interesting that when the time is
                                > right I might understand something that a few yrs earlier would not have ment
                                > anything.
                                > > Diana
                                > >
                                > Rosemarie Bucci <rblustar wrote:
                                >
                                > Hi Diana,
                                > I've had lots of experiences before
                                > my journey into eckankar and while on
                                > this path. I have read David Lane's book
                                > and Ford Johnson's book as well.
                                >
                                > I've been to eck satsangs, eck book
                                > discussions and eck seminars also.
                                > I agree that honesty is essential the
                                > name of GOD on all levels.
                                >
                                > I also understand that truth is truth
                                > and will always be the truth.
                                >
                                > I think it's important to remain open
                                > and honest regardless of what path we
                                > follow and to be there for one another
                                > as much as we can. We are all searching
                                > which is wonderful.
                                >
                                > Therefore, we are not wrong in doing
                                > so and let's remember, we all have each
                                > other to try to put all this in perspective.
                                > We have so much to bring to one another
                                > on our many different levels of knowledge
                                > and experience.
                                >
                                > I know we'll get through this some day
                                > and be stronger for it even if it hurts
                                > sometimes. If we are to stand before
                                > GOD and try to journey back to GOD,
                                > we must be brave and remain in truth.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Prometheus: But there is no Truth
                                > in Eckankar nor in any religion. It's
                                > desperation, fear, lies, myth (stories),
                                > imagination, pretend, and delusion!
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Thank you for getting back to me.
                                > Rosemarie
                                >
                              • starshine917
                                Hello prometheus_973: Remember me? Wow, it s so weird that I d be writing to you now….exactly, one year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I
                                Message 15 of 24 , Sep 4, 2011
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Hello prometheus_973:
                                  Remember me? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writing to you now….exactly, one year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I didn't plan it like this but somehow it just worked out this way.

                                  I recently left Eckankar. And, you were right….I read David Lane's paper as well as Ford Johnson's "Confessions of a God Seeker" And, for some reason at that time I remained in the group tying to focus on the so-called positive side of the Eckankar, the hypnotic rederick that goes nowhere while ignoring the facts. I then started to take a good look at Harold…looked into his "dark" eyes and listened to his figure of monotone speak and I realized it was very hypnotic, and at the same time very inviting. I wondered who or what was inside of those dark eyes….And they seem to always come as "the light". Yes, the "angel of light".

                                  I was in a satsang at that time and I found it disturbing more and more that his same picture of himself, which by the way never changes, the one and only picture that has to be present at all Eckankar meetings was never questioned by it's members. All the books we studied were written by him and only him !!! And how some members were "higher" than others depending on their "initiation" number, even if these people knew absolutely nothing except what was written in the books of Eckankar. Some of these people seemed to have anger issues too which didn't seem to fit the spiritual portrait of a saint they painted. I started to feel uncomfortable around these people cause they seemed more and more to me like mind-controlled slaves. And, they too could see that I was thinking and starting to pull away because I no longer looked to them without question, with blind authority.

                                  So, it wasn't a good mix to say the very least. I finally had it out with one of the members and I realized that I already left…In my heart, I choose to follow truth and I also realized that that in Eckankar, I was being deceived. And I realized that I couldn't have it both ways. I had to pick my convictions and go with them. After all, why would I go against my own self, and what was in my heart ?

                                  In Eckankar it is taught to open and follow your heart but yet, if you dare open your mind and begin to ask challenging questions, you're in trouble because these people think the Mahanta in Eckankar is above all else and should never be questioned, and your heart should be open to "him", the self appointed master, Harold Klemp. Even if the members of Eckankar are not honest with themselves enough to admit it consciously. On a subconscious level, they know better !!!

                                  The shame of it all is that this deception is done in the name of an unconditional open heart to give love, which it is true, a part of GOD's flow but where's the truth ? What happened to that part of GOD ??? I guess it got lost in the sea of love…


                                  Hello prometheus_973;
                                  Remember me ? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writ

                                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hello Rosemarie,
                                  > I am a seeker of Truth as well.
                                  > And yes, this article on "The Dark
                                  > Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
                                  > there is a dark side to Eckankar and
                                  > there is also fear.
                                  >
                                  > I find it interesting that you've
                                  > read (and I assume have contemplated
                                  > upon) David Lane's research as well as
                                  > Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
                                  > and have, still, remained an ECKist.
                                  >
                                  > What happened to your "critical thinking?"
                                  > Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
                                  > you agree with some of it but not all of
                                  > it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
                                  > I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
                                  > isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
                                  > what they believe than any other religion
                                  > they've found. Is that the case with you?
                                  >
                                  > I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
                                  > book, threw it away (because of the bad
                                  > vibes), and then placed themselves upon
                                  > pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
                                  > and talk Eckists through their doubts and
                                  > concerns.
                                  >
                                  > You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
                                  > not all truth is the same. That's why there
                                  > are so many churches. People are social
                                  > animals and tend to seek out others with
                                  > similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
                                  > to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
                                  > to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
                                  > and a test for Soul.
                                  >
                                  > I also got the impression that you don't
                                  > participate much within the RESA structure.
                                  > Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
                                  > Do you know that you have to watch what
                                  > you say? You've observed and learned that
                                  > correct? You do care about being promoted
                                  > to that next initiation right?
                                  >
                                  > Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
                                  > take on the subjects that we've been discussing
                                  > here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
                                  > lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
                                  > for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
                                  > Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
                                  > when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
                                  > "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
                                  > detectors just for his talk?
                                  >
                                  > You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues. 
                                  > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
                                  > at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."
                                  >
                                  > BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
                                  > read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?
                                  >
                                  > Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
                                  > the table.
                                  >
                                  > Prometheus
                                  >
                                  > rosemarie wrote:
                                  > Hi Diana,
                                  >
                                  > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth is truth and will always be the truth.
                                  >
                                  > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember, we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
                                  >
                                  > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must be brave and remain in truth.
                                  >
                                  > Thank you for getting back to me.
                                  > Rosemarie
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > dianastanley wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time. If it is hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew and was their experience I also say.
                                  >
                                  > Diana Stanley
                                  >
                                  > Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who are
                                  > searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
                                  > findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
                                  > thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.
                                  >
                                  > I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues. 
                                  > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
                                  > have allot to bring to the table.
                                  >  
                                  > I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
                                  > called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
                                  > site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because I'd
                                  > raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
                                  > well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
                                  > complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
                                  > thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely objective.
                                  > For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
                                  > paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
                                  >  
                                  > I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
                                  > within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on the
                                  > facts.
                                  >
                                  > I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
                                  > the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
                                  > belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking.
                                  > Do you?
                                  >
                                • prometheus_973
                                  Hello All, Just thought I d share some additional comments to what Starshine wrote. starshine917 wrote: Hello prometheus_973: Remember me? Wow, it s so weird
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Sep 11, 2011
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hello All,
                                    Just thought I'd share some
                                    additional comments to what
                                    Starshine wrote.

                                    starshine917 wrote:
                                    Hello prometheus_973:
                                    Remember me? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writing to you now….exactly, one
                                    year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I didn't plan it like
                                    this but somehow it just worked out this way.


                                    ME: Yes, it takes awhile for the
                                    realization to occur and sink in
                                    even after one decides to look
                                    for and analyze it via critical
                                    thinking while giving HK's/PT's
                                    redundant words a litmus test
                                    for truthiness.


                                    I recently left Eckankar. And, you were right….I read David Lane's paper as well
                                    as Ford Johnson's "Confessions of a God Seeker" And, for some reason at that
                                    time I remained in the group tying to focus on the so-called positive side of
                                    the Eckankar, the hypnotic rederick that goes nowhere while ignoring the facts.
                                    I then started to take a good look at Harold…looked into his "dark" eyes and
                                    listened to his figure of monotone speak and I realized it was very hypnotic,
                                    and at the same time very inviting. I wondered who or what was inside of those
                                    dark eyes….And they seem to always come as "the light". Yes, the "angel of
                                    light".


                                    ME: Klemp is no angel of light! He spreads
                                    darkness and delusion while denying Eckists
                                    their true nature as Soul. He gives (hope),
                                    promises (higher plane initiations), and then
                                    takes it all away (hope of ever getting beyond
                                    the 7th initiation while in this lifetime, unless,
                                    one pretends or imagines they are higher
                                    via vanity and frustration).


                                    I was in a satsang at that time and I found it disturbing more and more that his
                                    same picture of himself, which by the way never changes, the one and only
                                    picture that has to be present at all Eckankar meetings was never questioned by
                                    it's members. All the books we studied were written by him and only him !!! And
                                    how some members were "higher" than others depending on their "initiation"
                                    number, even if these people knew absolutely nothing except what was written in
                                    the books of Eckankar. Some of these people seemed to have anger issues too
                                    which didn't seem to fit the spiritual portrait of a saint they painted. I
                                    started to feel uncomfortable around these people cause they seemed more and
                                    more to me like mind-controlled slaves. And, they too could see that I was
                                    thinking and starting to pull away because I no longer looked to them without
                                    question, with blind authority.


                                    ME: Yes, that more youthful looking
                                    Official Picture of Klemp's is a vain act,
                                    but is never questioned because to do
                                    so would get one Black Listed on initiations.
                                    Those longtime Eckists who are part
                                    of the RESA Hierarchy know what I'm
                                    saying. Some H.I.s are fearful/cautious
                                    of the spies that report to the RESA and
                                    only share certain things (anti-Guideline
                                    comments, etc.) around those H.I.s they
                                    can trust.


                                    BTW- There are some books, that Klemp
                                    has approved of, written by non-Eck
                                    authors that Eckists can read. However,
                                    the Eckist must always focus upon the
                                    ECK or Mahanta when reading these
                                    books and, thus, give up free, unfettered,
                                    thought. Some of these books are
                                    recommended to those in leadership
                                    positions and are business oriented.



                                    So, it wasn't a good mix to say the very least. I finally had it out with one of
                                    the members and I realized that I already left…In my heart, I choose to follow
                                    truth and I also realized that that in Eckankar, I was being deceived. And I
                                    realized that I couldn't have it both ways. I had to pick my convictions and go
                                    with them. After all, why would I go against my own self, and what was in my
                                    heart?


                                    ME: It's the easy way to place an
                                    authority figure on a shelf higher
                                    than yourself. Less thinking and
                                    effort is involved when blind trust
                                    takes over. It's lazy but that's what
                                    people do. Look at how we allow
                                    the politicians to say and do as
                                    they please without taking responsibility.
                                    With Klemp, it's always the chela's
                                    fault and never his own! He slowed-
                                    down initiations in 1985, but doesn't
                                    need to explain why these haven't
                                    sped up because he answers to
                                    nobody else, except, Sugmad right?


                                    In Eckankar it is taught to open and follow your heart but yet, if you dare open
                                    your mind and begin to ask challenging questions, you're in trouble because
                                    these people think the Mahanta in Eckankar is above all else and should never be
                                    questioned, and your heart should be open to "him", the self appointed master,
                                    Harold Klemp. Even if the members of Eckankar are not honest with themselves
                                    enough to admit it consciously. On a subconscious level, they know better !!!

                                    ME: That following your heart
                                    thing is more about the Astral
                                    Heart Chakra... which is lower
                                    than the Third Eye or Tisra Til!
                                    Why didn't Klemp at least use
                                    the (Astral) Crown Chakra when
                                    having Eckists HU? After 30 years
                                    and HK still has Eckists HUing
                                    and focusing upon the 6th,
                                    Third Eye, Astral Chakra versus
                                    the 7th Crown Chakra!


                                    The shame of it all is that this deception is done in the name of an
                                    unconditional open heart to give love, which it is true, a part of GOD's flow
                                    but where's the truth ? What happened to that part of GOD ??? I guess it got
                                    lost in the sea of love…


                                    ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                                    "common language" but it's not
                                    quite true. ECK is not a common
                                    word and neither is Mahanta.
                                    And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                                    to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                                    others worship or think he is speaking
                                    about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                                    use the word GOD when it's not
                                    who or what they are referring
                                    to. It's like comparing apples
                                    to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                                    start out, and are trained, to be
                                    deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                                    fact alone makes Eckankar look
                                    very cult like. But, why the lie?
                                    The "common language" excuse
                                    doesn't hold water but Eckists
                                    can't question this underhanded
                                    practice or else they can have
                                    their position taken away and
                                    be Black Listed and shunned.

                                    Prometheus



                                    Hello prometheus_973;
                                    Remember me ? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writ


                                    <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hello Rosemarie,
                                    > I am a seeker of Truth as well.
                                    > And yes, this article on "The Dark
                                    > Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
                                    > there is a dark side to Eckankar and
                                    > there is also fear.
                                    >
                                    > I find it interesting that you've
                                    > read (and I assume have contemplated
                                    > upon) David Lane's research as well as
                                    > Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
                                    > and have, still, remained an ECKist.
                                    >
                                    > What happened to your "critical thinking?"
                                    > Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
                                    > you agree with some of it but not all of
                                    > it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
                                    > I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
                                    > isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
                                    > what they believe than any other religion
                                    > they've found. Is that the case with you?
                                    >
                                    > I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
                                    > book, threw it away (because of the bad
                                    > vibes), and then placed themselves upon
                                    > pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
                                    > and talk Eckists through their doubts and
                                    > concerns.
                                    >
                                    > You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
                                    > not all truth is the same. That's why there
                                    > are so many churches. People are social
                                    > animals and tend to seek out others with
                                    > similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
                                    > to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
                                    > to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
                                    > and a test for Soul.
                                    >
                                    > I also got the impression that you don't
                                    > participate much within the RESA structure.
                                    > Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
                                    > Do you know that you have to watch what
                                    > you say? You've observed and learned that
                                    > correct? You do care about being promoted
                                    > to that next initiation right?
                                    >
                                    > Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
                                    > take on the subjects that we've been discussing
                                    > here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
                                    > lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
                                    > for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
                                    > Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
                                    > when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
                                    > "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
                                    > detectors just for his talk?
                                    >
                                    > You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                                    > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
                                    > at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."
                                    >
                                    > BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
                                    > read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?
                                    >
                                    > Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
                                    > the table.
                                    >
                                    > Prometheus
                                    >
                                    > rosemarie wrote:
                                    > Hi Diana,
                                    >
                                    > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this
                                    path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been
                                    to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that
                                    honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth
                                    is truth and will always be the truth.
                                    >
                                    > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we
                                    follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching
                                    which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember,
                                    we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to
                                    bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
                                    >
                                    > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts
                                    sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must
                                    be brave and remain in truth.
                                    >
                                    > Thank you for getting back to me.
                                    > Rosemarie
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > dianastanley wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any
                                    direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from
                                    personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time. If it is
                                    hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew and was their
                                    experience I also say.
                                    >
                                    > Diana Stanley
                                    >
                                    > Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who
                                    are searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
                                    findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
                                    thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.
                                    >
                                    I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                                    We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
                                    have allot to bring to the table.
                                    >
                                    I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
                                    called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
                                    site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because
                                    I'd raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
                                    well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
                                    complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
                                    thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely
                                    objective.

                                    For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
                                    paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
                                    >
                                    I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
                                    within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on
                                    the facts.
                                    >
                                    I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
                                    the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
                                    belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking.
                                    Do you?
                                  • postekcon
                                    Re ... ME: Klemp likes to say he uses common language but it s not quite true. ECK is not a common word and neither is Mahanta. And, the God (Sugmad) he
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Sep 11, 2011
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Re
                                      >>>
                                      ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                                      "common language" but it's not
                                      quite true. ECK is not a common
                                      word and neither is Mahanta.
                                      And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                                      to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                                      others worship or think he is speaking
                                      about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                                      use the word GOD when it's not
                                      who or what they are referring
                                      to. It's like comparing apples
                                      to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                                      start out, and are trained, to be
                                      deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                                      fact alone makes Eckankar look
                                      very cult like. But, why the lie?
                                      The "common language" excuse
                                      doesn't hold water but Eckists
                                      can't question this underhanded
                                      practice or else they can have
                                      their position taken away and
                                      be Black Listed and shunned.
                                      >>>


                                      For the past ten years, I have observed this pattern.

                                      Hard working HIs (50-70yrs plus) busy putting on Intro Talks, occasionally enrolling a new recruit to ekult.

                                      However, within a year or two, the new recruit leaves ekult as nothing makes sense! Of course, the HIs, unable to look at either themselves or ekult, always blame the new recruit with comments such as lack of unfoldment etc!

                                      For the new recruit, the reason nothing makes sense, I've observed, is thus. The HIs bring the new recruit into Paul Twitchell/Darwin Gross ekult; the ekult into which they themselved were enrolled. Now this version of ekult promised it had the tools for self/god realization in this lifetime etc. However, several MW (Mystic World) issues later, the new recruit comes to understand these 'good people' lied to them!
                                      -Postekcon


                                      In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Hello All,
                                      > Just thought I'd share some
                                      > additional comments to what
                                      > Starshine wrote.
                                      >
                                      > starshine917 wrote:
                                      > Hello prometheus_973:
                                      > Remember me? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writing to you now….exactly, one
                                      > year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I didn't plan it like
                                      > this but somehow it just worked out this way.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ME: Yes, it takes awhile for the
                                      > realization to occur and sink in
                                      > even after one decides to look
                                      > for and analyze it via critical
                                      > thinking while giving HK's/PT's
                                      > redundant words a litmus test
                                      > for truthiness.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > I recently left Eckankar. And, you were right….I read David Lane's paper as well
                                      > as Ford Johnson's "Confessions of a God Seeker" And, for some reason at that
                                      > time I remained in the group tying to focus on the so-called positive side of
                                      > the Eckankar, the hypnotic rederick that goes nowhere while ignoring the facts.
                                      > I then started to take a good look at Harold…looked into his "dark" eyes and
                                      > listened to his figure of monotone speak and I realized it was very hypnotic,
                                      > and at the same time very inviting. I wondered who or what was inside of those
                                      > dark eyes….And they seem to always come as "the light". Yes, the "angel of
                                      > light".
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ME: Klemp is no angel of light! He spreads
                                      > darkness and delusion while denying Eckists
                                      > their true nature as Soul. He gives (hope),
                                      > promises (higher plane initiations), and then
                                      > takes it all away (hope of ever getting beyond
                                      > the 7th initiation while in this lifetime, unless,
                                      > one pretends or imagines they are higher
                                      > via vanity and frustration).
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > I was in a satsang at that time and I found it disturbing more and more that his
                                      > same picture of himself, which by the way never changes, the one and only
                                      > picture that has to be present at all Eckankar meetings was never questioned by
                                      > it's members. All the books we studied were written by him and only him !!! And
                                      > how some members were "higher" than others depending on their "initiation"
                                      > number, even if these people knew absolutely nothing except what was written in
                                      > the books of Eckankar. Some of these people seemed to have anger issues too
                                      > which didn't seem to fit the spiritual portrait of a saint they painted. I
                                      > started to feel uncomfortable around these people cause they seemed more and
                                      > more to me like mind-controlled slaves. And, they too could see that I was
                                      > thinking and starting to pull away because I no longer looked to them without
                                      > question, with blind authority.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ME: Yes, that more youthful looking
                                      > Official Picture of Klemp's is a vain act,
                                      > but is never questioned because to do
                                      > so would get one Black Listed on initiations.
                                      > Those longtime Eckists who are part
                                      > of the RESA Hierarchy know what I'm
                                      > saying. Some H.I.s are fearful/cautious
                                      > of the spies that report to the RESA and
                                      > only share certain things (anti-Guideline
                                      > comments, etc.) around those H.I.s they
                                      > can trust.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > BTW- There are some books, that Klemp
                                      > has approved of, written by non-Eck
                                      > authors that Eckists can read. However,
                                      > the Eckist must always focus upon the
                                      > ECK or Mahanta when reading these
                                      > books and, thus, give up free, unfettered,
                                      > thought. Some of these books are
                                      > recommended to those in leadership
                                      > positions and are business oriented.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > So, it wasn't a good mix to say the very least. I finally had it out with one of
                                      > the members and I realized that I already left…In my heart, I choose to follow
                                      > truth and I also realized that that in Eckankar, I was being deceived. And I
                                      > realized that I couldn't have it both ways. I had to pick my convictions and go
                                      > with them. After all, why would I go against my own self, and what was in my
                                      > heart?
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ME: It's the easy way to place an
                                      > authority figure on a shelf higher
                                      > than yourself. Less thinking and
                                      > effort is involved when blind trust
                                      > takes over. It's lazy but that's what
                                      > people do. Look at how we allow
                                      > the politicians to say and do as
                                      > they please without taking responsibility.
                                      > With Klemp, it's always the chela's
                                      > fault and never his own! He slowed-
                                      > down initiations in 1985, but doesn't
                                      > need to explain why these haven't
                                      > sped up because he answers to
                                      > nobody else, except, Sugmad right?
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > In Eckankar it is taught to open and follow your heart but yet, if you dare open
                                      > your mind and begin to ask challenging questions, you're in trouble because
                                      > these people think the Mahanta in Eckankar is above all else and should never be
                                      > questioned, and your heart should be open to "him", the self appointed master,
                                      > Harold Klemp. Even if the members of Eckankar are not honest with themselves
                                      > enough to admit it consciously. On a subconscious level, they know better !!!
                                      >
                                      > ME: That following your heart
                                      > thing is more about the Astral
                                      > Heart Chakra... which is lower
                                      > than the Third Eye or Tisra Til!
                                      > Why didn't Klemp at least use
                                      > the (Astral) Crown Chakra when
                                      > having Eckists HU? After 30 years
                                      > and HK still has Eckists HUing
                                      > and focusing upon the 6th,
                                      > Third Eye, Astral Chakra versus
                                      > the 7th Crown Chakra!
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > The shame of it all is that this deception is done in the name of an
                                      > unconditional open heart to give love, which it is true, a part of GOD's flow
                                      > but where's the truth ? What happened to that part of GOD ??? I guess it got
                                      > lost in the sea of love…
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                                      > "common language" but it's not
                                      > quite true. ECK is not a common
                                      > word and neither is Mahanta.
                                      > And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                                      > to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                                      > others worship or think he is speaking
                                      > about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                                      > use the word GOD when it's not
                                      > who or what they are referring
                                      > to. It's like comparing apples
                                      > to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                                      > start out, and are trained, to be
                                      > deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                                      > fact alone makes Eckankar look
                                      > very cult like. But, why the lie?
                                      > The "common language" excuse
                                      > doesn't hold water but Eckists
                                      > can't question this underhanded
                                      > practice or else they can have
                                      > their position taken away and
                                      > be Black Listed and shunned.
                                      >
                                      > Prometheus
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Hello prometheus_973;
                                      > Remember me ? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writ
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Hello Rosemarie,
                                      > > I am a seeker of Truth as well.
                                      > > And yes, this article on "The Dark
                                      > > Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
                                      > > there is a dark side to Eckankar and
                                      > > there is also fear.
                                      > >
                                      > > I find it interesting that you've
                                      > > read (and I assume have contemplated
                                      > > upon) David Lane's research as well as
                                      > > Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
                                      > > and have, still, remained an ECKist.
                                      > >
                                      > > What happened to your "critical thinking?"
                                      > > Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
                                      > > you agree with some of it but not all of
                                      > > it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
                                      > > I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
                                      > > isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
                                      > > what they believe than any other religion
                                      > > they've found. Is that the case with you?
                                      > >
                                      > > I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
                                      > > book, threw it away (because of the bad
                                      > > vibes), and then placed themselves upon
                                      > > pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
                                      > > and talk Eckists through their doubts and
                                      > > concerns.
                                      > >
                                      > > You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
                                      > > not all truth is the same. That's why there
                                      > > are so many churches. People are social
                                      > > animals and tend to seek out others with
                                      > > similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
                                      > > to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
                                      > > to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
                                      > > and a test for Soul.
                                      > >
                                      > > I also got the impression that you don't
                                      > > participate much within the RESA structure.
                                      > > Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
                                      > > Do you know that you have to watch what
                                      > > you say? You've observed and learned that
                                      > > correct? You do care about being promoted
                                      > > to that next initiation right?
                                      > >
                                      > > Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
                                      > > take on the subjects that we've been discussing
                                      > > here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
                                      > > lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
                                      > > for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
                                      > > Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
                                      > > when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
                                      > > "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
                                      > > detectors just for his talk?
                                      > >
                                      > > You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                                      > > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
                                      > > at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."
                                      > >
                                      > > BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
                                      > > read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?
                                      > >
                                      > > Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
                                      > > the table.
                                      > >
                                      > > Prometheus
                                      > >
                                      > > rosemarie wrote:
                                      > > Hi Diana,
                                      > >
                                      > > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this
                                      > path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been
                                      > to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that
                                      > honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth
                                      > is truth and will always be the truth.
                                      > >
                                      > > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we
                                      > follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching
                                      > which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember,
                                      > we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to
                                      > bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
                                      > >
                                      > > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts
                                      > sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must
                                      > be brave and remain in truth.
                                      > >
                                      > > Thank you for getting back to me.
                                      > > Rosemarie
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > dianastanley wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any
                                      > direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from
                                      > personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time. If it is
                                      > hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew and was their
                                      > experience I also say.
                                      > >
                                      > > Diana Stanley
                                      > >
                                      > > Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who
                                      > are searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
                                      > findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
                                      > thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.
                                      > >
                                      > I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                                      > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
                                      > have allot to bring to the table.
                                      > >
                                      > I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
                                      > called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
                                      > site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because
                                      > I'd raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
                                      > well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
                                      > complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
                                      > thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely
                                      > objective.
                                      >
                                      > For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
                                      > paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
                                      > >
                                      > I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
                                      > within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on
                                      > the facts.
                                      > >
                                      > I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
                                      > the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
                                      > belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking.
                                      > Do you?
                                      >
                                    • prometheus_973
                                      Hello Postekcon and All, Yes, it was always a conundrum trying to recruit new members via spreading the word i.e. manure. However, we had structured public
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Sep 14, 2011
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Hello Postekcon and All,
                                        Yes, it was always a conundrum
                                        trying to recruit new members
                                        via "spreading the word" i.e.
                                        manure. However, we had
                                        structured public workshops
                                        and/or book discussions with
                                        Guidelines spelling out what
                                        to do and how to do it.

                                        Some RESA areas did experimental
                                        programs (special projects),
                                        and if successful, the ESC
                                        tweaked them to be used
                                        elsewhere. It was all quite
                                        time consuming and frustrating.
                                        Local areas and the H.I.s were
                                        always judged on the numbers
                                        of newbies showing up for
                                        these events. Most people
                                        were repeats and were into
                                        metaphysics or were the friends,
                                        coworkers or relatives of Eckists.

                                        I recall that one local area
                                        of a neighboring state was
                                        having a lot of success via
                                        large turnouts of newbies.
                                        They probably had a couple
                                        of hundred newbies in one
                                        year and that was practically
                                        unheard of in Eckankar. Several
                                        of these H.I.s were very proud
                                        of the "high counts" they turned
                                        in to the ESC. However, out
                                        of all of those newbies only
                                        about ten joined Eckankar
                                        and only, maybe, one or two
                                        remained after a year. These,
                                        I doubt, remained for the
                                        long haul. Let's face it, it's
                                        a dead end religion where
                                        one pretends, i.e. imagines
                                        or visualizes, their desires
                                        for "spiritual" progress and
                                        "knowingness" or "realization"
                                        of varying degrees. The initiation
                                        game is the main, underlying,
                                        theme. The problem, for Eckists,
                                        is that dangling carrot when
                                        initiations have been "slowed-
                                        down" for 25 years and the
                                        highest most can go is the 7th!

                                        Those 7th initiates who had
                                        hit the glass ceiling 20 or more
                                        years ago have rationalized
                                        it all away. They only stay in
                                        EK because they have some
                                        prestige, a lot of Eck friends,
                                        and have paid their dues with
                                        a lot of vahana and satsang
                                        work over the years. Plus, they've
                                        been taught to "imagine" and
                                        visualize, therefore, all they
                                        need to do is pretend they are
                                        8ths (on the inner). Most pretend
                                        they are higher than 8ths. After
                                        all, Darwin skipped or sped up
                                        initiations even for Klemp. So,
                                        if it was valid, then, why not
                                        today? Actually, just about all
                                        Eckists pretent they are "higher"
                                        than the number printed on
                                        their Membership Cards.

                                        Anyway, the reason why
                                        the EK Youth effort has
                                        gained some momentum
                                        over the years is because
                                        it's easier to brainwash a
                                        controlled subject. However,
                                        that doesn't always work,
                                        either, when these young
                                        Eckists see their parents
                                        act so nutty and non-Eck
                                        like. Plus, reclusive Klemp
                                        puts a lot of pressure upon
                                        them to do the vahana/
                                        missionary thing when
                                        it's tough enough getting
                                        through school and those
                                        teen years. Klemp doesn't
                                        have any empathy. He was
                                        in a Lutheran all boys high
                                        school and never learned
                                        about dating until he got
                                        out of the Air Force (1968)
                                        when he was 26 years old!

                                        One has to wonder why
                                        Klemp doesn't do his fair
                                        share of public vahana work.
                                        Why doesn't he have a radio
                                        show or do and say something
                                        in real time? The EK Seminars
                                        don't count. That's for maybe
                                        a hundred newbies who aren't
                                        all that "new" and for his brain-
                                        washed followers.

                                        In theory, Klemp's real "spiritual"
                                        mission is to help his followers
                                        achieve God Realization. However,
                                        what Initiation level is the indicator
                                        that this has been accomplished?

                                        According to Book 2, CH. 12 of
                                        the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad (Eckankar's
                                        Holy Book) their God, Sugmad,
                                        resides on the 10th Plane, however,
                                        Eckists must have the 11th Initiation
                                        for "entrance into the Sugmad world,
                                        which is the highest world of God,
                                        if any, may enter."

                                        Of course, that's not quite true either
                                        since there're the 12th, 13th, and 14th
                                        initiations after this one. This, then,
                                        is where one (supposedly) enters into
                                        Soul's true home called The Ocean of
                                        love and Mercy. However, one can see
                                        why EK Higher initiates (5-7) become
                                        internally frustrated since, except for
                                        a handful of people, they will never
                                        even see the 8th initiation (in this
                                        lifetime). That's the Catch/Con that
                                        Twitchell invented and Klemp inherited.
                                        Hope via promises for a better afterlife
                                        while imagining day-to-day miracles
                                        and dreaming about one's pre-programmed
                                        expectations. It's how any and every
                                        religion works.

                                        Prometheus




                                        "postekcon" wrote:
                                        Re
                                        >>>
                                        ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                                        "common language" but it's not
                                        quite true. ECK is not a common
                                        word and neither is Mahanta.
                                        And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                                        to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                                        others worship or think he is speaking
                                        about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                                        use the word GOD when it's not
                                        who or what they are referring
                                        to. It's like comparing apples
                                        to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                                        start out, and are trained, to be
                                        deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                                        fact alone makes Eckankar look
                                        very cult like. But, why the lie?
                                        The "common language" excuse
                                        doesn't hold water but Eckists
                                        can't question this underhanded
                                        practice or else they can have
                                        their position taken away and
                                        can be Black Listed and shunned.
                                        >>>


                                        For the past ten years, I have observed this pattern.

                                        Hard working HIs (50-70yrs plus) busy putting on Intro Talks, occasionally
                                        enrolling a new recruit to ekult.

                                        However, within a year or two, the new recruit leaves ekult as nothing makes
                                        sense! Of course, the HIs, unable to look at either themselves or ekult, always
                                        blame the new recruit with comments such as lack of unfoldment etc!

                                        For the new recruit, the reason nothing makes sense, I've observed, is thus. The
                                        HIs bring the new recruit into Paul Twitchell/Darwin Gross ekult; the ekult into
                                        which they themselved were enrolled. Now this version of ekult promised it had
                                        the tools for self/god realization in this lifetime etc. However, several MW
                                        (Mystic World) issues later, the new recruit comes to understand these 'good
                                        people' lied to them!
                                        -Postekcon


                                        In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                                        <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Hello All,
                                        > Just thought I'd share some
                                        > additional comments to what
                                        > Starshine wrote.
                                        >
                                        > starshine917 wrote:
                                        > Hello prometheus_973:
                                        > Remember me? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writing to you now….exactly, one
                                        > year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I didn't plan it like
                                        > this but somehow it just worked out this way.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ME: Yes, it takes awhile for the
                                        > realization to occur and sink in
                                        > even after one decides to look
                                        > for and analyze it via critical
                                        > thinking while giving HK's/PT's
                                        > redundant words a litmus test
                                        > for truthiness.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > I recently left Eckankar. And, you were right….I read David Lane's paper as
                                        well as Ford Johnson's "Confessions of a God Seeker" And, for some reason at
                                        that time I remained in the group tying to focus on the so-called positive side
                                        of the Eckankar, the hypnotic rederick that goes nowhere while ignoring the
                                        facts.

                                        > I then started to take a good look at Harold…looked into his "dark" eyes and
                                        > listened to his figure of monotone speak and I realized it was very hypnotic,
                                        > and at the same time very inviting. I wondered who or what was inside of those
                                        > dark eyes….And they seem to always come as "the light". Yes, the "angel of
                                        > light".
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ME: Klemp is no angel of light! He spreads
                                        > darkness and delusion while denying Eckists
                                        > their true nature as Soul. He gives (hope),
                                        > promises (higher plane initiations), and then
                                        > takes it all away (hope of ever getting beyond
                                        > the 7th initiation while in this lifetime, unless,
                                        > one pretends or imagines they are higher
                                        > via vanity and frustration).
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > I was in a satsang at that time and I found it disturbing more and more that
                                        his
                                        > same picture of himself, which by the way never changes, the one and only
                                        > picture that has to be present at all Eckankar meetings was never questioned
                                        by
                                        > it's members. All the books we studied were written by him and only him !!!
                                        And
                                        > how some members were "higher" than others depending on their "initiation"
                                        > number, even if these people knew absolutely nothing except what was written
                                        in
                                        > the books of Eckankar. Some of these people seemed to have anger issues too
                                        > which didn't seem to fit the spiritual portrait of a saint they painted. I
                                        > started to feel uncomfortable around these people cause they seemed more and
                                        > more to me like mind-controlled slaves. And, they too could see that I was
                                        > thinking and starting to pull away because I no longer looked to them without
                                        > question, with blind authority.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ME: Yes, that more youthful looking
                                        > Official Picture of Klemp's is a vain act,
                                        > but is never questioned because to do
                                        > so would get one Black Listed on initiations.
                                        > Those longtime Eckists who are part
                                        > of the RESA Hierarchy know what I'm
                                        > saying. Some H.I.s are fearful/cautious
                                        > of the spies that report to the RESA and
                                        > only share certain things (anti-Guideline
                                        > comments, etc.) around those H.I.s they
                                        > can trust.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > BTW- There are some books, that Klemp
                                        > has approved of, written by non-Eck
                                        > authors that Eckists can read. However,
                                        > the Eckist must always focus upon the
                                        > ECK or Mahanta when reading these
                                        > books and, thus, give up free, unfettered,
                                        > thought. Some of these books are
                                        > recommended to those in leadership
                                        > positions and are business oriented.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > So, it wasn't a good mix to say the very least. I finally had it out with one
                                        of
                                        > the members and I realized that I already left…In my heart, I choose to follow
                                        > truth and I also realized that that in Eckankar, I was being deceived. And I
                                        > realized that I couldn't have it both ways. I had to pick my convictions and
                                        go
                                        > with them. After all, why would I go against my own self, and what was in my
                                        > heart?
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ME: It's the easy way to place an
                                        > authority figure on a shelf higher
                                        > than yourself. Less thinking and
                                        > effort is involved when blind trust
                                        > takes over. It's lazy but that's what
                                        > people do. Look at how we allow
                                        > the politicians to say and do as
                                        > they please without taking responsibility.
                                        > With Klemp, it's always the chela's
                                        > fault and never his own! He slowed-
                                        > down initiations in 1985, but doesn't
                                        > need to explain why these haven't
                                        > sped up because he answers to
                                        > nobody else, except, Sugmad right?
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > In Eckankar it is taught to open and follow your heart but yet, if you dare
                                        open
                                        > your mind and begin to ask challenging questions, you're in trouble because
                                        > these people think the Mahanta in Eckankar is above all else and should never
                                        be
                                        > questioned, and your heart should be open to "him", the self appointed master,
                                        > Harold Klemp. Even if the members of Eckankar are not honest with themselves
                                        > enough to admit it consciously. On a subconscious level, they know better !!!
                                        >
                                        > ME: That following your heart
                                        > thing is more about the Astral
                                        > Heart Chakra... which is lower
                                        > than the Third Eye or Tisra Til!
                                        > Why didn't Klemp at least use
                                        > the (Astral) Crown Chakra when
                                        > having Eckists HU? After 30 years
                                        > and HK still has Eckists HUing
                                        > and focusing upon the 6th,
                                        > Third Eye, Astral Chakra versus
                                        > the 7th Crown Chakra!
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > The shame of it all is that this deception is done in the name of an
                                        > unconditional open heart to give love, which it is true, a part of GOD's flow
                                        > but where's the truth ? What happened to that part of GOD ??? I guess it got
                                        > lost in the sea of love…
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                                        > "common language" but it's not
                                        > quite true. ECK is not a common
                                        > word and neither is Mahanta.
                                        > And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                                        > to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                                        > others worship or think he is speaking
                                        > about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                                        > use the word GOD when it's not
                                        > who or what they are referring
                                        > to. It's like comparing apples
                                        > to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                                        > start out, and are trained, to be
                                        > deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                                        > fact alone makes Eckankar look
                                        > very cult like. But, why the lie?
                                        > The "common language" excuse
                                        > doesn't hold water but Eckists
                                        > can't question this underhanded
                                        > practice or else they can have
                                        > their position taken away and
                                        > be Black Listed and shunned.
                                        >
                                        > Prometheus
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Hello prometheus_973;
                                        > Remember me ? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writ
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Hello Rosemarie,
                                        > > I am a seeker of Truth as well.
                                        > > And yes, this article on "The Dark
                                        > > Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
                                        > > there is a dark side to Eckankar and
                                        > > there is also fear.
                                        > >
                                        > > I find it interesting that you've
                                        > > read (and I assume have contemplated
                                        > > upon) David Lane's research as well as
                                        > > Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
                                        > > and have, still, remained an ECKist.
                                        > >
                                        > > What happened to your "critical thinking?"
                                        > > Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
                                        > > you agree with some of it but not all of
                                        > > it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
                                        > > I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
                                        > > isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
                                        > > what they believe than any other religion
                                        > > they've found. Is that the case with you?
                                        > >
                                        > > I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
                                        > > book, threw it away (because of the bad
                                        > > vibes), and then placed themselves upon
                                        > > pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
                                        > > and talk Eckists through their doubts and
                                        > > concerns.
                                        > >
                                        > > You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
                                        > > not all truth is the same. That's why there
                                        > > are so many churches. People are social
                                        > > animals and tend to seek out others with
                                        > > similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
                                        > > to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
                                        > > to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
                                        > > and a test for Soul.
                                        > >
                                        > > I also got the impression that you don't
                                        > > participate much within the RESA structure.
                                        > > Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
                                        > > Do you know that you have to watch what
                                        > > you say? You've observed and learned that
                                        > > correct? You do care about being promoted
                                        > > to that next initiation right?
                                        > >
                                        > > Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
                                        > > take on the subjects that we've been discussing
                                        > > here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
                                        > > lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
                                        > > for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
                                        > > Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
                                        > > when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
                                        > > "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
                                        > > detectors just for his talk?
                                        > >
                                        > > You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                                        > > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
                                        > > at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."
                                        > >
                                        > > BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
                                        > > read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?
                                        > >
                                        > > Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
                                        > > the table.
                                        > >
                                        > > Prometheus
                                        > >
                                        > > rosemarie wrote:
                                        > > Hi Diana,
                                        > >
                                        > > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on
                                        this
                                        > path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been
                                        > to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that
                                        > honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that
                                        truth
                                        > is truth and will always be the truth.
                                        > >
                                        > > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we
                                        > follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching
                                        > which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's
                                        remember,
                                        > we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much
                                        to
                                        > bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
                                        > >
                                        > > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it
                                        hurts
                                        > sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we
                                        must
                                        > be brave and remain in truth.
                                        > >
                                        > > Thank you for getting back to me.
                                        > > Rosemarie
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > dianastanley wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any
                                        > direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from
                                        > personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time. If it is
                                        > hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew and was
                                        > their experience I also say.
                                        > >
                                        > > Diana Stanley
                                        > >
                                        > > Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who
                                        > are searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
                                        > findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
                                        > thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.
                                        > >
                                        > I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                                        > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
                                        > have allot to bring to the table.
                                        > >
                                        > I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
                                        > called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
                                        > site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because
                                        > I'd raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
                                        > well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
                                        > complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
                                        > thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely
                                        > objective.
                                        >
                                        > For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
                                        > paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
                                        > >
                                        > I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
                                        > within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on
                                        > the facts.
                                        > >
                                        > I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
                                        > the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
                                        > belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking.
                                        > Do you?
                                        >
                                      • etznab@aol.com
                                        One of Paul Twitchell s first reported journey s with Rebazar Tarzs mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme. Check the index section for Ocean
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Sep 14, 2011
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar Tarzs
                                          mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme. Check the
                                          index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with the Master.

                                          The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless region,
                                          [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called THE FACE OF
                                          GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying: [Quoting
                                          >] "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the light of
                                          God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes could not look
                                          upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean of Love
                                          and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return in time."
                                          (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)

                                          Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in the House
                                          of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens. Ye cannot
                                          go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with my divine
                                          self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in the divine
                                          cause!"

                                          Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the Master, has
                                          Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting snippet]:

                                          "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in a
                                          mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
                                          attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
                                          "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and after
                                          this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul reaches
                                          the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or the SUGMAD,
                                          the supreme LORD of all that exists."

                                          http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html

                                          Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the description
                                          slightly:

                                          "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the Sat Nam in
                                          a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in all Sat
                                          Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the three
                                          remaining known planes.
                                          "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
                                          after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam Purusha, or
                                          lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region of the
                                          nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first you know
                                          about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the Divine.
                                          "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."

                                          http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html

                                          Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is illustrated (by
                                          Paul Twitchell) slightly different.

                                          "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam Lok.
                                          Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the end of its
                                          journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the supreme
                                          lord of all that exists."

                                          http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html

                                          The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok, Alak Lok,
                                          Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with Ocean of
                                          Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip mention of
                                          Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.

                                          In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master, Introduction to
                                          Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes similarly, and
                                          in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain sections from
                                          The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:

                                          "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit is
                                          expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal, Nirala,
                                          Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
                                          Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country

                                          http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html

                                          "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many words, such
                                          as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala, Anami, Agam,
                                          Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar, Parameshwar,
                                          Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters

                                          http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html

                                          Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent from the
                                          Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR vs.
                                          Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian Johnson's book,
                                          The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The Far
                                          Country, by at least three decades!

                                          Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word, trademarked
                                          it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is somehow more
                                          than a paraphrase.











                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                                          <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Sent: Wed, Sep 14, 2011 11:17 am
                                          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: "The Dark Side of ECKankar" -
                                          And More!

                                           
                                          Hello Postekcon and All,
                                          Yes, it was always a conundrum
                                          trying to recruit new members
                                          via "spreading the word" i.e.
                                          manure. However, we had
                                          structured public workshops
                                          and/or book discussions with
                                          Guidelines spelling out what
                                          to do and how to do it.

                                          Some RESA areas did experimental
                                          programs (special projects),
                                          and if successful, the ESC
                                          tweaked them to be used
                                          elsewhere. It was all quite
                                          time consuming and frustrating.
                                          Local areas and the H.I.s were
                                          always judged on the numbers
                                          of newbies showing up for
                                          these events. Most people
                                          were repeats and were into
                                          metaphysics or were the friends,
                                          coworkers or relatives of Eckists.

                                          I recall that one local area
                                          of a neighboring state was
                                          having a lot of success via
                                          large turnouts of newbies.
                                          They probably had a couple
                                          of hundred newbies in one
                                          year and that was practically
                                          unheard of in Eckankar. Several
                                          of these H.I.s were very proud
                                          of the "high counts" they turned
                                          in to the ESC. However, out
                                          of all of those newbies only
                                          about ten joined Eckankar
                                          and only, maybe, one or two
                                          remained after a year. These,
                                          I doubt, remained for the
                                          long haul. Let's face it, it's
                                          a dead end religion where
                                          one pretends, i.e. imagines
                                          or visualizes, their desires
                                          for "spiritual" progress and
                                          "knowingness" or "realization"
                                          of varying degrees. The initiation
                                          game is the main, underlying,
                                          theme. The problem, for Eckists,
                                          is that dangling carrot when
                                          initiations have been "slowed-
                                          down" for 25 years and the
                                          highest most can go is the 7th!

                                          Those 7th initiates who had
                                          hit the glass ceiling 20 or more
                                          years ago have rationalized
                                          it all away. They only stay in
                                          EK because they have some
                                          prestige, a lot of Eck friends,
                                          and have paid their dues with
                                          a lot of vahana and satsang
                                          work over the years. Plus, they've
                                          been taught to "imagine" and
                                          visualize, therefore, all they
                                          need to do is pretend they are
                                          8ths (on the inner). Most pretend
                                          they are higher than 8ths. After
                                          all, Darwin skipped or sped up
                                          initiations even for Klemp. So,
                                          if it was valid, then, why not
                                          today? Actually, just about all
                                          Eckists pretent they are "higher"
                                          than the number printed on
                                          their Membership Cards.

                                          Anyway, the reason why
                                          the EK Youth effort has
                                          gained some momentum
                                          over the years is because
                                          it's easier to brainwash a
                                          controlled subject. However,
                                          that doesn't always work,
                                          either, when these young
                                          Eckists see their parents
                                          act so nutty and non-Eck
                                          like. Plus, reclusive Klemp
                                          puts a lot of pressure upon
                                          them to do the vahana/
                                          missionary thing when
                                          it's tough enough getting
                                          through school and those
                                          teen years. Klemp doesn't
                                          have any empathy. He was
                                          in a Lutheran all boys high
                                          school and never learned
                                          about dating until he got
                                          out of the Air Force (1968)
                                          when he was 26 years old!

                                          One has to wonder why
                                          Klemp doesn't do his fair
                                          share of public vahana work.
                                          Why doesn't he have a radio
                                          show or do and say something
                                          in real time? The EK Seminars
                                          don't count. That's for maybe
                                          a hundred newbies who aren't
                                          all that "new" and for his brain-
                                          washed followers.

                                          In theory, Klemp's real "spiritual"
                                          mission is to help his followers
                                          achieve God Realization. However,
                                          what Initiation level is the indicator
                                          that this has been accomplished?

                                          According to Book 2, CH. 12 of
                                          the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad (Eckankar's
                                          Holy Book) their God, Sugmad,
                                          resides on the 10th Plane, however,
                                          Eckists must have the 11th Initiation
                                          for "entrance into the Sugmad world,
                                          which is the highest world of God,
                                          if any, may enter."

                                          Of course, that's not quite true either
                                          since there're the 12th, 13th, and 14th
                                          initiations after this one. This, then,
                                          is where one (supposedly) enters into
                                          Soul's true home called The Ocean of
                                          love and Mercy. However, one can see
                                          why EK Higher initiates (5-7) become
                                          internally frustrated since, except for
                                          a handful of people, they will never
                                          even see the 8th initiation (in this
                                          lifetime). That's the Catch/Con that
                                          Twitchell invented and Klemp inherited.
                                          Hope via promises for a better afterlife
                                          while imagining day-to-day miracles
                                          and dreaming about one's pre-programmed
                                          expectations. It's how any and every
                                          religion works.

                                          Prometheus

                                          "postekcon" wrote:
                                          Re
                                          >>>
                                          ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                                          "common language" but it's not
                                          quite true. ECK is not a common
                                          word and neither is Mahanta.
                                          And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                                          to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                                          others worship or think he is speaking
                                          about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                                          use the word GOD when it's not
                                          who or what they are referring
                                          to. It's like comparing apples
                                          to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                                          start out, and are trained, to be
                                          deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                                          fact alone makes Eckankar look
                                          very cult like. But, why the lie?
                                          The "common language" excuse
                                          doesn't hold water but Eckists
                                          can't question this underhanded
                                          practice or else they can have
                                          their position taken away and
                                          can be Black Listed and shunned.
                                          >>>

                                          For the past ten years, I have observed this pattern.

                                          Hard working HIs (50-70yrs plus) busy putting on Intro Talks,
                                          occasionally
                                          enrolling a new recruit to ekult.

                                          However, within a year or two, the new recruit leaves ekult as nothing
                                          makes
                                          sense! Of course, the HIs, unable to look at either themselves or
                                          ekult, always
                                          blame the new recruit with comments such as lack of unfoldment etc!

                                          For the new recruit, the reason nothing makes sense, I've observed, is
                                          thus. The
                                          HIs bring the new recruit into Paul Twitchell/Darwin Gross ekult; the
                                          ekult into
                                          which they themselved were enrolled. Now this version of ekult promised
                                          it had
                                          the tools for self/god realization in this lifetime etc. However,
                                          several MW
                                          (Mystic World) issues later, the new recruit comes to understand these
                                          'good
                                          people' lied to them!
                                          -Postekcon

                                          In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                                          <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Hello All,
                                          > Just thought I'd share some
                                          > additional comments to what
                                          > Starshine wrote.
                                          >
                                          > starshine917 wrote:
                                          > Hello prometheus_973:
                                          > Remember me? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writing to you
                                          now….exactly, one
                                          > year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I didn't
                                          plan it like
                                          > this but somehow it just worked out this way.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ME: Yes, it takes awhile for the
                                          > realization to occur and sink in
                                          > even after one decides to look
                                          > for and analyze it via critical
                                          > thinking while giving HK's/PT's
                                          > redundant words a litmus test
                                          > for truthiness.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > I recently left Eckankar. And, you were right….I read David Lane's
                                          paper as
                                          well as Ford Johnson's "Confessions of a God Seeker" And, for some
                                          reason at
                                          that time I remained in the group tying to focus on the so-called
                                          positive side
                                          of the Eckankar, the hypnotic rederick that goes nowhere while ignoring
                                          the
                                          facts.

                                          > I then started to take a good look at Harold…looked into his
                                          "dark" eyes and
                                          > listened to his figure of monotone speak and I realized it was
                                          very hypnotic,
                                          > and at the same time very inviting. I wondered who or what was
                                          inside of those
                                          > dark eyes….And they seem to always come as "the light". Yes, the
                                          "angel of
                                          > light".
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ME: Klemp is no angel of light! He spreads
                                          > darkness and delusion while denying Eckists
                                          > their true nature as Soul. He gives (hope),
                                          > promises (higher plane initiations), and then
                                          > takes it all away (hope of ever getting beyond
                                          > the 7th initiation while in this lifetime, unless,
                                          > one pretends or imagines they are higher
                                          > via vanity and frustration).
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > I was in a satsang at that time and I found it disturbing more and
                                          more that
                                          his
                                          > same picture of himself, which by the way never changes, the one
                                          and only
                                          > picture that has to be present at all Eckankar meetings was never
                                          questioned
                                          by
                                          > it's members. All the books we studied were written by him and
                                          only him !!!
                                          And
                                          > how some members were "higher" than others depending on their
                                          "initiation"
                                          > number, even if these people knew absolutely nothing except what
                                          was written
                                          in
                                          > the books of Eckankar. Some of these people seemed to have anger
                                          issues too
                                          > which didn't seem to fit the spiritual portrait of a saint they
                                          painted. I
                                          > started to feel uncomfortable around these people cause they
                                          seemed more and
                                          > more to me like mind-controlled slaves. And, they too could see
                                          that I was
                                          > thinking and starting to pull away because I no longer looked to
                                          them without
                                          > question, with blind authority.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ME: Yes, that more youthful looking
                                          > Official Picture of Klemp's is a vain act,
                                          > but is never questioned because to do
                                          > so would get one Black Listed on initiations.
                                          > Those longtime Eckists who are part
                                          > of the RESA Hierarchy know what I'm
                                          > saying. Some H.I.s are fearful/cautious
                                          > of the spies that report to the RESA and
                                          > only share certain things (anti-Guideline
                                          > comments, etc.) around those H.I.s they
                                          > can trust.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > BTW- There are some books, that Klemp
                                          > has approved of, written by non-Eck
                                          > authors that Eckists can read. However,
                                          > the Eckist must always focus upon the
                                          > ECK or Mahanta when reading these
                                          > books and, thus, give up free, unfettered,
                                          > thought. Some of these books are
                                          > recommended to those in leadership
                                          > positions and are business oriented.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > So, it wasn't a good mix to say the very least. I finally had it
                                          out with one
                                          of
                                          > the members and I realized that I already left…In my heart, I
                                          choose to follow
                                          > truth and I also realized that that in Eckankar, I was being
                                          deceived. And I
                                          > realized that I couldn't have it both ways. I had to pick my
                                          convictions and
                                          go
                                          > with them. After all, why would I go against my own self, and what
                                          was in my
                                          > heart?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ME: It's the easy way to place an
                                          > authority figure on a shelf higher
                                          > than yourself. Less thinking and
                                          > effort is involved when blind trust
                                          > takes over. It's lazy but that's what
                                          > people do. Look at how we allow
                                          > the politicians to say and do as
                                          > they please without taking responsibility.
                                          > With Klemp, it's always the chela's
                                          > fault and never his own! He slowed-
                                          > down initiations in 1985, but doesn't
                                          > need to explain why these haven't
                                          > sped up because he answers to
                                          > nobody else, except, Sugmad right?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > In Eckankar it is taught to open and follow your heart but yet, if
                                          you dare
                                          open
                                          > your mind and begin to ask challenging questions, you're in
                                          trouble because
                                          > these people think the Mahanta in Eckankar is above all else and
                                          should never
                                          be
                                          > questioned, and your heart should be open to "him", the self
                                          appointed master,
                                          > Harold Klemp. Even if the members of Eckankar are not honest with
                                          themselves
                                          > enough to admit it consciously. On a subconscious level, they know
                                          better !!!
                                          >
                                          > ME: That following your heart
                                          > thing is more about the Astral
                                          > Heart Chakra... which is lower
                                          > than the Third Eye or Tisra Til!
                                          > Why didn't Klemp at least use
                                          > the (Astral) Crown Chakra when
                                          > having Eckists HU? After 30 years
                                          > and HK still has Eckists HUing
                                          > and focusing upon the 6th,
                                          > Third Eye, Astral Chakra versus
                                          > the 7th Crown Chakra!
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > The shame of it all is that this deception is done in the name of
                                          an
                                          > unconditional open heart to give love, which it is true, a part of
                                          GOD's flow
                                          > but where's the truth ? What happened to that part of GOD ??? I
                                          guess it got
                                          > lost in the sea of love…
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
                                          > "common language" but it's not
                                          > quite true. ECK is not a common
                                          > word and neither is Mahanta.
                                          > And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
                                          > to is not the same (4th Plane) God
                                          > others worship or think he is speaking
                                          > about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
                                          > use the word GOD when it's not
                                          > who or what they are referring
                                          > to. It's like comparing apples
                                          > to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
                                          > start out, and are trained, to be
                                          > deceptive to non-Eckists. This
                                          > fact alone makes Eckankar look
                                          > very cult like. But, why the lie?
                                          > The "common language" excuse
                                          > doesn't hold water but Eckists
                                          > can't question this underhanded
                                          > practice or else they can have
                                          > their position taken away and
                                          > be Black Listed and shunned.
                                          >
                                          > Prometheus
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Hello prometheus_973;
                                          > Remember me ? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writ
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > Hello Rosemarie,
                                          > > I am a seeker of Truth as well.
                                          > > And yes, this article on "The Dark
                                          > > Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
                                          > > there is a dark side to Eckankar and
                                          > > there is also fear.
                                          > >
                                          > > I find it interesting that you've
                                          > > read (and I assume have contemplated
                                          > > upon) David Lane's research as well as
                                          > > Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
                                          > > and have, still, remained an ECKist.
                                          > >
                                          > > What happened to your "critical thinking?"
                                          > > Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
                                          > > you agree with some of it but not all of
                                          > > it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
                                          > > I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
                                          > > isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
                                          > > what they believe than any other religion
                                          > > they've found. Is that the case with you?
                                          > >
                                          > > I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
                                          > > book, threw it away (because of the bad
                                          > > vibes), and then placed themselves upon
                                          > > pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
                                          > > and talk Eckists through their doubts and
                                          > > concerns.
                                          > >
                                          > > You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
                                          > > not all truth is the same. That's why there
                                          > > are so many churches. People are social
                                          > > animals and tend to seek out others with
                                          > > similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
                                          > > to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
                                          > > to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
                                          > > and a test for Soul.
                                          > >
                                          > > I also got the impression that you don't
                                          > > participate much within the RESA structure.
                                          > > Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
                                          > > Do you know that you have to watch what
                                          > > you say? You've observed and learned that
                                          > > correct? You do care about being promoted
                                          > > to that next initiation right?
                                          > >
                                          > > Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
                                          > > take on the subjects that we've been discussing
                                          > > here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
                                          > > lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
                                          > > for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
                                          > > Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
                                          > > when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
                                          > > "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
                                          > > detectors just for his talk?
                                          > >
                                          > > You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues.
                                          > > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
                                          > > at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."
                                          > >
                                          > > BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
                                          > > read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?
                                          > >
                                          > > Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
                                          > > the table.
                                          > >
                                          > > Prometheus
                                          > >
                                          > > rosemarie wrote:
                                          > > Hi Diana,
                                          > >
                                          > > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar
                                          and while on
                                          this
                                          > path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as
                                          well. I've been
                                          > to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I
                                          agree that
                                          > honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also
                                          understand that
                                          truth
                                          > is truth and will always be the truth.
                                          > >
                                          > > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless
                                          of what path we
                                          > follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are
                                          all searching
                                          > which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and
                                          let's
                                          remember,
                                          > we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We
                                          have so much
                                          to
                                          > bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and
                                          experience.
                                          > >
                                          > > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it
                                          even if it
                                          hurts
                                          > sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back
                                          to GOD, we
                                          must
                                          > be brave and remain in truth.
                                          > >
                                          > > Thank you for getting back to me.
                                          > > Rosemarie
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > dianastanley wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you
                                          have any
                                          > direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it
                                          is from
                                          > personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time.
                                          If it is
                                          > hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew
                                          and was
                                          > their experience I also say.
                                          > >
                                          > > Diana Stanley
                                          > >
                                          > > Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for
                                          those of you who
                                          > are searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for
                                          sharing your
                                          > findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light"
                                          of critical
                                          > thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.
                                          > >
                                          > I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar
                                          has issues.
                                          > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this
                                          site, so we
                                          > have allot to bring to the table.
                                          > >
                                          > I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used
                                          in this paper
                                          > called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links"
                                          in this web
                                          > site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of
                                          challenge because
                                          > I'd raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this
                                          paper as
                                          > well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be
                                          painted with
                                          > complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of
                                          critical
                                          > thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being
                                          completely
                                          > objective.
                                          >
                                          > For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack
                                          ECKankar in this
                                          > paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they
                                          originated.
                                          > >
                                          > I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure
                                          is overdo
                                          > within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is
                                          based on
                                          > the facts.
                                          > >
                                          > I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't
                                          think
                                          > the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within
                                          one religious
                                          > belief system and exchange them for another in the name of
                                          critical thinking.
                                          > Do you?
                                          >
                                        • prometheus_973
                                          Hello Etznab and All, It is interesting that Twitchell has his Rebazar character (the Master who initiated him) indicate that there were 8 Planes just as
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Sep 16, 2011
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Hello Etznab and All,
                                            It is interesting that Twitchell
                                            has his Rebazar character (the
                                            "Master" who initiated him)
                                            indicate that there were 8 Planes
                                            just as Radhasomi and Ruhani
                                            Satsang have listed in "The Path
                                            of the Masters." Since Kirpal
                                            Singh, of Ruhani Satsang, was
                                            Paul's real life Master for ten years
                                            it's no wonder that this dogma was
                                            influential in the design of Eckankar.

                                            Of course, Twitchell was constantly
                                            tweaking, revising, and masking his
                                            religious con as time went by.

                                            The Anami Lok (10th Plane where
                                            "Sugmad" resides) didn't appear until
                                            later. Did Rebazar simply forget to
                                            mention this as well as the "Mahanta?"
                                            Did RT think that Paul needed to be
                                            spoon-fed and wasn't ready for this
                                            advanced "spiritual" info? No, not really.
                                            According to Twitchell he had been
                                            given the 12th and "final initiation"
                                            (to become LEM) back in 1951 by
                                            Rebazar while on his "2nd" visit to
                                            India. See, the timeline is off for this
                                            ekplanation to be taken seriously as
                                            well.

                                            Therefore, there is no rational excuse
                                            for these inconsistencies except to
                                            admit that the "rascal" Twitchell was,
                                            once again, "exaggerating" and "twisting
                                            facts" as even Klemp has described
                                            and said of him. Klemp, years ago,
                                            had to admit that Twitchell was a self-
                                            promoter and did or said whatever
                                            he needed to do ("By Any Means Necessary")
                                            in order to get Eckankar off the ground.

                                            This is why Klemp, at first, had a
                                            difficult job of explaining Twitchell's
                                            inconsistencies and needed to keep
                                            Eckists confused, busy, and off-balance.
                                            Now, Eckists are so brainwashed that
                                            Klemp can say whatever in his simple
                                            minded redundant versions of feel-good
                                            New Age spirituality.


                                            Prometheus



                                            etznab wrote:

                                            One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar Tarzs
                                            mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme. Check the
                                            index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with the Master.

                                            The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless region,
                                            [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called THE FACE OF
                                            GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying: [Quoting]
                                            "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the light of
                                            God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes could not look
                                            upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean of Love
                                            and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return in time."
                                            (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)

                                            Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in the House
                                            of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens. Ye cannot
                                            go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with my divine
                                            self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in the divine
                                            cause!"

                                            Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the Master, has
                                            Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting snippet]:

                                            "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in a
                                            mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
                                            attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
                                            "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and after
                                            this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul reaches
                                            the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or the SUGMAD,
                                            the supreme LORD of all that exists."

                                            http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html

                                            Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the description
                                            slightly:

                                            "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the Sat Nam in
                                            a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in all Sat
                                            Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the three
                                            remaining known planes.

                                            "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
                                            after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam Purusha, or
                                            lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region of the
                                            nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first you know
                                            about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the Divine.

                                            "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."

                                            http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html

                                            Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is illustrated (by
                                            Paul Twitchell) slightly different.

                                            "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam Lok.
                                            Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the end of its
                                            journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the supreme
                                            lord of all that exists."

                                            http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html

                                            The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok, Alak Lok,
                                            Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with Ocean of
                                            Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip mention of
                                            Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.

                                            In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master, Introduction to
                                            Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes similarly, and
                                            in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain sections from
                                            The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:

                                            "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit is
                                            expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal, Nirala,
                                            Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
                                            Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country

                                            http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html

                                            "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many words, such
                                            as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala, Anami, Agam,
                                            Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar, Parameshwar,
                                            Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters

                                            http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html

                                            Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent from the
                                            Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR vs.
                                            Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian Johnson's book,
                                            The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The Far
                                            Country, by at least three decades!

                                            Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word, trademarked
                                            it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is somehow more
                                            than a paraphrase.
                                          • etznab18
                                            Almost didn t see this response because the e-mail bounced. Umm ... about the self-promotion, whatever, people can read about some of the history here.
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Sep 16, 2011
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Almost didn't see this response because the e-mail bounced.

                                              Umm ... about the self-promotion, whatever, people can read about some of the history here.

                                              http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html

                                              Check out 4th paragraph of article entitled: Paul's Seal of Approval.

                                              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Hello Etznab and All,
                                              > It is interesting that Twitchell
                                              > has his Rebazar character (the
                                              > "Master" who initiated him)
                                              > indicate that there were 8 Planes
                                              > just as Radhasomi and Ruhani
                                              > Satsang have listed in "The Path
                                              > of the Masters." Since Kirpal
                                              > Singh, of Ruhani Satsang, was
                                              > Paul's real life Master for ten years
                                              > it's no wonder that this dogma was
                                              > influential in the design of Eckankar.
                                              >
                                              > Of course, Twitchell was constantly
                                              > tweaking, revising, and masking his
                                              > religious con as time went by.
                                              >
                                              > The Anami Lok (10th Plane where
                                              > "Sugmad" resides) didn't appear until
                                              > later. Did Rebazar simply forget to
                                              > mention this as well as the "Mahanta?"
                                              > Did RT think that Paul needed to be
                                              > spoon-fed and wasn't ready for this
                                              > advanced "spiritual" info? No, not really.
                                              > According to Twitchell he had been
                                              > given the 12th and "final initiation"
                                              > (to become LEM) back in 1951 by
                                              > Rebazar while on his "2nd" visit to
                                              > India. See, the timeline is off for this
                                              > ekplanation to be taken seriously as
                                              > well.
                                              >
                                              > Therefore, there is no rational excuse
                                              > for these inconsistencies except to
                                              > admit that the "rascal" Twitchell was,
                                              > once again, "exaggerating" and "twisting
                                              > facts" as even Klemp has described
                                              > and said of him. Klemp, years ago,
                                              > had to admit that Twitchell was a self-
                                              > promoter and did or said whatever
                                              > he needed to do ("By Any Means Necessary")
                                              > in order to get Eckankar off the ground.
                                              >
                                              > This is why Klemp, at first, had a
                                              > difficult job of explaining Twitchell's
                                              > inconsistencies and needed to keep
                                              > Eckists confused, busy, and off-balance.
                                              > Now, Eckists are so brainwashed that
                                              > Klemp can say whatever in his simple
                                              > minded redundant versions of feel-good
                                              > New Age spirituality.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Prometheus
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > etznab wrote:
                                              >
                                              > One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar Tarzs
                                              > mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme. Check the
                                              > index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with the Master.
                                              >
                                              > The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless region,
                                              > [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called THE FACE OF
                                              > GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying: [Quoting]
                                              > "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the light of
                                              > God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes could not look
                                              > upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean of Love
                                              > and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return in time."
                                              > (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)
                                              >
                                              > Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in the House
                                              > of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens. Ye cannot
                                              > go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with my divine
                                              > self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in the divine
                                              > cause!"
                                              >
                                              > Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the Master, has
                                              > Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting snippet]:
                                              >
                                              > "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in a
                                              > mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
                                              > attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
                                              > "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and after
                                              > this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul reaches
                                              > the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or the SUGMAD,
                                              > the supreme LORD of all that exists."
                                              >
                                              > http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html
                                              >
                                              > Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the description
                                              > slightly:
                                              >
                                              > "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the Sat Nam in
                                              > a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in all Sat
                                              > Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the three
                                              > remaining known planes.
                                              >
                                              > "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
                                              > after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam Purusha, or
                                              > lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region of the
                                              > nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first you know
                                              > about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the Divine.
                                              >
                                              > "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."
                                              >
                                              > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                              >
                                              > Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is illustrated (by
                                              > Paul Twitchell) slightly different.
                                              >
                                              > "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam Lok.
                                              > Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the end of its
                                              > journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the supreme
                                              > lord of all that exists."
                                              >
                                              > http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html
                                              >
                                              > The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok, Alak Lok,
                                              > Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with Ocean of
                                              > Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip mention of
                                              > Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.
                                              >
                                              > In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master, Introduction to
                                              > Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes similarly, and
                                              > in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain sections from
                                              > The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:
                                              >
                                              > "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit is
                                              > expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal, Nirala,
                                              > Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
                                              > Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country
                                              >
                                              > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                              >
                                              > "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many words, such
                                              > as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala, Anami, Agam,
                                              > Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar, Parameshwar,
                                              > Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters
                                              >
                                              > http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html
                                              >
                                              > Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent from the
                                              > Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR vs.
                                              > Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian Johnson's book,
                                              > The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The Far
                                              > Country, by at least three decades!
                                              >
                                              > Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word, trademarked
                                              > it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is somehow more
                                              > than a paraphrase.
                                              >
                                            • prometheus_973
                                              Hello Etznab and All, This tells how Paul Twitchell was His Own Drum Beater: http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html What s interesting is that at
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Sep 17, 2011
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Hello Etznab and All,
                                                This tells how Paul Twitchell
                                                was His Own Drum Beater:

                                                http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html

                                                What's interesting is that at age 27 (1935)
                                                Twitchell was saying that he had been
                                                to India (supposedly at age 15 to meet
                                                Rebazar for the first time, DOBTLEM).
                                                However, Klemp points out that Twitchell
                                                was doing another self-promotion, and
                                                was lying in order to get into Who's Who
                                                in Kentucky. Klemp states that Twitchell
                                                had never been all that far from home
                                                at age 27. Klemp seems to have stepped
                                                into a big pile of Twits mess. HK's
                                                statement contradicts what Twitchell
                                                revealed in Difficulties of Becoming the
                                                Living ECK Master circa July, 1971. This
                                                1971 date is, supposedly, long after Twitchell
                                                (the Mahanta) was was no longer "exaggerating"
                                                and "twisting facts." However, as Klemp
                                                has pointed out Twitchell was still lying
                                                and promoting his con up until his untimely
                                                and death in September, 1971.

                                                Prometheus

                                                etznab@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Almost didn't see this response because the e-mail bounced.
                                                >
                                                > Umm ... about the self-promotion, whatever, people can read about some of the history here.
                                                >
                                                > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html
                                                >
                                                > Check out 4th paragraph of article entitled: Paul's Seal of Approval.
                                                >
                                                > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > Hello Etznab and All,
                                                > > It is interesting that Twitchell
                                                > > has his Rebazar character (the
                                                > > "Master" who initiated him)
                                                > > indicate that there were 8 Planes
                                                > > just as Radhasomi and Ruhani
                                                > > Satsang have listed in "The Path
                                                > > of the Masters." Since Kirpal
                                                > > Singh, of Ruhani Satsang, was
                                                > > Paul's real life Master for ten years
                                                > > it's no wonder that this dogma was
                                                > > influential in the design of Eckankar.
                                                > >
                                                > > Of course, Twitchell was constantly
                                                > > tweaking, revising, and masking his
                                                > > religious con as time went by.
                                                > >
                                                > > The Anami Lok (10th Plane where
                                                > > "Sugmad" resides) didn't appear until
                                                > > later. Did Rebazar simply forget to
                                                > > mention this as well as the "Mahanta?"
                                                > > Did RT think that Paul needed to be
                                                > > spoon-fed and wasn't ready for this
                                                > > advanced "spiritual" info? No, not really.
                                                > > According to Twitchell he had been
                                                > > given the 12th and "final initiation"
                                                > > (to become LEM) back in 1951 by
                                                > > Rebazar while on his "2nd" visit to
                                                > > India. See, the timeline is off for this
                                                > > ekplanation to be taken seriously as
                                                > > well.
                                                > >
                                                > > Therefore, there is no rational excuse
                                                > > for these inconsistencies except to
                                                > > admit that the "rascal" Twitchell was,
                                                > > once again, "exaggerating" and "twisting
                                                > > facts" as even Klemp has described
                                                > > and said of him. Klemp, years ago,
                                                > > had to admit that Twitchell was a self-
                                                > > promoter and did or said whatever
                                                > > he needed to do ("By Any Means Necessary")
                                                > > in order to get Eckankar off the ground.
                                                > >
                                                > > This is why Klemp, at first, had a
                                                > > difficult job of explaining Twitchell's
                                                > > inconsistencies and needed to keep
                                                > > Eckists confused, busy, and off-balance.
                                                > > Now, Eckists are so brainwashed that
                                                > > Klemp can say whatever in his simple
                                                > > minded redundant versions of feel-good
                                                > > New Age spirituality.
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > Prometheus
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > etznab wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar Tarzs
                                                > > mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme. Check the
                                                > > index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with the Master.
                                                > >
                                                > > The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless region,
                                                > > [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called THE FACE OF
                                                > > GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying: [Quoting]
                                                > > "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the light of
                                                > > God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes could not look
                                                > > upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean of Love
                                                > > and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return in time."
                                                > > (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)
                                                > >
                                                > > Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in the House
                                                > > of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens. Ye cannot
                                                > > go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with my divine
                                                > > self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in the divine
                                                > > cause!"
                                                > >
                                                > > Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the Master, has
                                                > > Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting snippet]:
                                                > >
                                                > > "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in a
                                                > > mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
                                                > > attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
                                                > > "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and after
                                                > > this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul reaches
                                                > > the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or the SUGMAD,
                                                > > the supreme LORD of all that exists."
                                                > >
                                                > > http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html
                                                > >
                                                > > Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the description
                                                > > slightly:
                                                > >
                                                > > "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the Sat Nam in
                                                > > a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in all Sat
                                                > > Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the three
                                                > > remaining known planes.
                                                > >
                                                > > "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
                                                > > after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam Purusha, or
                                                > > lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region of the
                                                > > nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first you know
                                                > > about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the Divine.
                                                > >
                                                > > "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."
                                                > >
                                                > > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                                > >
                                                > > Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is illustrated (by
                                                > > Paul Twitchell) slightly different.
                                                > >
                                                > > "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam Lok.
                                                > > Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the end of its
                                                > > journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the supreme
                                                > > lord of all that exists."
                                                > >
                                                > > http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html
                                                > >
                                                > > The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok, Alak Lok,
                                                > > Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with Ocean of
                                                > > Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip mention of
                                                > > Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.
                                                > >
                                                > > In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master, Introduction to
                                                > > Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes similarly, and
                                                > > in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain sections from
                                                > > The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:
                                                > >
                                                > > "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit is
                                                > > expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal, Nirala,
                                                > > Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
                                                > > Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country
                                                > >
                                                > > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                                > >
                                                > > "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many words, such
                                                > > as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala, Anami, Agam,
                                                > > Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar, Parameshwar,
                                                > > Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters
                                                > >
                                                > > http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html
                                                > >
                                                > > Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent from the
                                                > > Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR vs.
                                                > > Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian Johnson's book,
                                                > > The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The Far
                                                > > Country, by at least three decades!
                                                > >
                                                > > Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word, trademarked
                                                > > it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is somehow more
                                                > > than a paraphrase.
                                                > >
                                                >
                                              • etznab@aol.com
                                                I think a lot of people can overlook this stuff, thinking that whatever Paul Twitchell said/wrote must be the truth. Some people just might not care. Well,
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Sep 17, 2011
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  I think a lot of people can overlook this stuff, thinking that whatever
                                                  Paul Twitchell said/wrote must be the truth. Some people just might not
                                                  care. Well, it's reasonable to suspect this talent - for promotion,
                                                  even when it means making things up, stretching the truth, or just
                                                  plain spinning lies - was used to "create" the Eckankar mythos.

                                                  myth

                                                  1830, from Gk. mythos "speech, thought, story, myth," of unknown origin.

                                                  Myths are "stories about divine beings, generally arranged in a
                                                  coherent system; they are revered as true and sacred; they are endorsed
                                                  by rulers and priests; and closely linked to religion. Once this link
                                                  is broken, and the actors in the story are not regarded as gods but as
                                                  human heroes, giants or fairies, it is no longer a myth but a folktale.
                                                  Where the central actor is divine but the story is trivial ... the
                                                  result is religious legend, not myth." [J. Simpson & S. Roud,
                                                  "Dictionary of English Folklore," Oxford, 2000, p.254]

                                                  General sense of "untrue story, rumor" is from 1840.

                                                  http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=mythos&searchmode=none

                                                  In other words, amid all the compilations and recycled material, etc.,
                                                  context has been changed (in various places) when it comes to source. I
                                                  wonder, could Paul Twitchell have created "Eckankar" and at the same
                                                  time given the source for all of his material? I noticed Kirpal Singh
                                                  and others were very good at citing references and sharing what
                                                  quote/saying came from who. So if Paul Twitchell ever chose to use
                                                  passages and paragraphs from books, Did he always feel obligated to
                                                  provide that information?

                                                  As a promoter, I suspect the person wants to give credit to whatever
                                                  they're promoting and not give more credit to "other products" instead.
                                                  It makes sense (to me) that Paul Twitchell would "paint the name
                                                  Eckankar" over so much material he had read (in so many words). Not
                                                  only this, but it even appears probable that Paul Twitchell took
                                                  liberty to respell and redefine words according to fit them in a new,
                                                  and growing, Eckankar philosophy. Not only words, but names too!

                                                  How extensive the promotion and PR campaign that created contemporary
                                                  Eckankar teaching? In so many ways, it seems this is the part that
                                                  doesn't agree with people. Not unless they knew from the beginning that
                                                  information was not necessarily accurate and in some places embellished.

                                                  embellish

                                                  mid-14c., "to render beautiful," from O.Fr. embelliss-, stem of
                                                  embellir "make beautiful, ornament," from em- (see en- (1)) + bel
                                                  "beautiful," from L. bellus (see bene-). Meaning "dress up (a
                                                  narration) with fictitious matter" is from mid-15c. Related:
                                                  Embellished; embellishing.

                                                  http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=embellished&searchmode=none

                                                  Reading through early Eckankar books I think common sense might tell a
                                                  person that parts of the material was embellished. At the same time I
                                                  also think people could naturally so much want the material to be true
                                                  that they allow imagination to "make it so" and overrule common sense.

                                                  Ever observe what happens when you're part of a group where countless
                                                  individuals believe in things - through imagination - that aren't
                                                  necessarily true? I mean, when you're one of the unbelievers and part
                                                  of the minority who question whether so many imagined things are true?


                                                  -----Original Message-----
                                                  From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                                                  <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                                                  Sent: Sat, Sep 17, 2011 2:14 am
                                                  Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: "The Dark Side of ECKankar" -
                                                  And More!

                                                   
                                                  Hello Etznab and All,
                                                  This tells how Paul Twitchell
                                                  was His Own Drum Beater:

                                                  http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html

                                                  What's interesting is that at age 27 (1935)
                                                  Twitchell was saying that he had been
                                                  to India (supposedly at age 15 to meet
                                                  Rebazar for the first time, DOBTLEM).
                                                  However, Klemp points out that Twitchell
                                                  was doing another self-promotion, and
                                                  was lying in order to get into Who's Who
                                                  in Kentucky. Klemp states that Twitchell
                                                  had never been all that far from home
                                                  at age 27. Klemp seems to have stepped
                                                  into a big pile of Twits mess. HK's
                                                  statement contradicts what Twitchell
                                                  revealed in Difficulties of Becoming the
                                                  Living ECK Master circa July, 1971. This
                                                  1971 date is, supposedly, long after Twitchell
                                                  (the Mahanta) was was no longer "exaggerating"
                                                  and "twisting facts." However, as Klemp
                                                  has pointed out Twitchell was still lying
                                                  and promoting his con up until his untimely
                                                  and death in September, 1971.

                                                  Prometheus

                                                  etznab@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > Almost didn't see this response because the e-mail bounced.
                                                  >
                                                  > Umm ... about the self-promotion, whatever, people can read about
                                                  some of the history here.
                                                  >
                                                  > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html
                                                  >
                                                  > Check out 4th paragraph of article entitled: Paul's Seal of
                                                  Approval.
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                                                  "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Hello Etznab and All,
                                                  > > It is interesting that Twitchell
                                                  > > has his Rebazar character (the
                                                  > > "Master" who initiated him)
                                                  > > indicate that there were 8 Planes
                                                  > > just as Radhasomi and Ruhani
                                                  > > Satsang have listed in "The Path
                                                  > > of the Masters." Since Kirpal
                                                  > > Singh, of Ruhani Satsang, was
                                                  > > Paul's real life Master for ten years
                                                  > > it's no wonder that this dogma was
                                                  > > influential in the design of Eckankar.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Of course, Twitchell was constantly
                                                  > > tweaking, revising, and masking his
                                                  > > religious con as time went by.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > The Anami Lok (10th Plane where
                                                  > > "Sugmad" resides) didn't appear until
                                                  > > later. Did Rebazar simply forget to
                                                  > > mention this as well as the "Mahanta?"
                                                  > > Did RT think that Paul needed to be
                                                  > > spoon-fed and wasn't ready for this
                                                  > > advanced "spiritual" info? No, not really.
                                                  > > According to Twitchell he had been
                                                  > > given the 12th and "final initiation"
                                                  > > (to become LEM) back in 1951 by
                                                  > > Rebazar while on his "2nd" visit to
                                                  > > India. See, the timeline is off for this
                                                  > > ekplanation to be taken seriously as
                                                  > > well.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Therefore, there is no rational excuse
                                                  > > for these inconsistencies except to
                                                  > > admit that the "rascal" Twitchell was,
                                                  > > once again, "exaggerating" and "twisting
                                                  > > facts" as even Klemp has described
                                                  > > and said of him. Klemp, years ago,
                                                  > > had to admit that Twitchell was a self-
                                                  > > promoter and did or said whatever
                                                  > > he needed to do ("By Any Means Necessary")
                                                  > > in order to get Eckankar off the ground.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > This is why Klemp, at first, had a
                                                  > > difficult job of explaining Twitchell's
                                                  > > inconsistencies and needed to keep
                                                  > > Eckists confused, busy, and off-balance.
                                                  > > Now, Eckists are so brainwashed that
                                                  > > Klemp can say whatever in his simple
                                                  > > minded redundant versions of feel-good
                                                  > > New Age spirituality.
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Prometheus
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > etznab wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar
                                                  Tarzs
                                                  > > mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme.
                                                  Check the
                                                  > > index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with
                                                  the Master.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless
                                                  region,
                                                  > > [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called
                                                  THE FACE OF
                                                  > > GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying:
                                                  [Quoting]
                                                  > > "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the
                                                  light of
                                                  > > God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes
                                                  could not look
                                                  > > upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean
                                                  of Love
                                                  > > and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return
                                                  in time."
                                                  > > (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in
                                                  the House
                                                  > > of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens.
                                                  Ye cannot
                                                  > > go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with
                                                  my divine
                                                  > > self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in
                                                  the divine
                                                  > > cause!"
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the
                                                  Master, has
                                                  > > Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting
                                                  snippet]:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in
                                                  a
                                                  > > mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
                                                  > > attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
                                                  > > "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
                                                  after
                                                  > > this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul
                                                  reaches
                                                  > > the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or
                                                  the SUGMAD,
                                                  > > the supreme LORD of all that exists."
                                                  > >
                                                  > > http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the
                                                  description
                                                  > > slightly:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the
                                                  Sat Nam in
                                                  > > a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in
                                                  all Sat
                                                  > > Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the
                                                  three
                                                  > > remaining known planes.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha,
                                                  and
                                                  > > after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam
                                                  Purusha, or
                                                  > > lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region
                                                  of the
                                                  > > nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first
                                                  you know
                                                  > > about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the
                                                  Divine.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."
                                                  > >
                                                  > > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is
                                                  illustrated (by
                                                  > > Paul Twitchell) slightly different.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam
                                                  Lok.
                                                  > > Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the
                                                  end of its
                                                  > > journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the
                                                  supreme
                                                  > > lord of all that exists."
                                                  > >
                                                  > > http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html
                                                  > >
                                                  > > The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok,
                                                  Alak Lok,
                                                  > > Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with
                                                  Ocean of
                                                  > > Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip
                                                  mention of
                                                  > > Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master,
                                                  Introduction to
                                                  > > Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes
                                                  similarly, and
                                                  > > in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain
                                                  sections from
                                                  > > The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit
                                                  is
                                                  > > expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal,
                                                  Nirala,
                                                  > > Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
                                                  > > Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country
                                                  > >
                                                  > > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                                  > >
                                                  > > "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many
                                                  words, such
                                                  > > as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala,
                                                  Anami, Agam,
                                                  > > Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar,
                                                  Parameshwar,
                                                  > > Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters
                                                  > >
                                                  > > http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent
                                                  from the
                                                  > > Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR
                                                  vs.
                                                  > > Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian
                                                  Johnson's book,
                                                  > > The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The
                                                  Far
                                                  > > Country, by at least three decades!
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word,
                                                  trademarked
                                                  > > it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is
                                                  somehow more
                                                  > > than a paraphrase.
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                • prometheus_973
                                                  Hello Etznab and All, It s true that most Eckists have turned a blind eye towards their religion. However, it s done via Klemp s subtle and not so subtle
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , Sep 17, 2011
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Hello Etznab and All,
                                                    It's true that most Eckists have
                                                    turned a blind eye towards their
                                                    religion. However, it's done via
                                                    Klemp's subtle and not so subtle
                                                    intimidation tactics such as:

                                                    Going to the "inner" to have
                                                    one's questions answered...
                                                    this is what the more "advanced"
                                                    and "enlightened" Eckists do.

                                                    Using the Buddha quote of, "Is
                                                    it true, is it necessary, is it kind"
                                                    this I ask myself before I speak
                                                    my mind.

                                                    HK writing articles and giving
                                                    talks on the negativity of gossip
                                                    and how it hinders one's "spiritual"
                                                    growth.

                                                    Also, there's the unspoken knowledge
                                                    that those who ask too many questions,
                                                    especially "wrong" questions, will get
                                                    Eckists Black Listed on initiations or
                                                    to have them slowed down 3-5 years
                                                    (on average) longer than normal.

                                                    Plus, Eckankar's Higher Initiates
                                                    (5-7) are a very passive group
                                                    and don't want to question the
                                                    foundation of their religion because
                                                    things are going okay so why rock
                                                    the boat? Being an H.I. is an ego
                                                    trip and a security blanket too.

                                                    And, let's face it, most Eckists don't
                                                    have the time or inclination to research
                                                    the old, P.T., Eckankar texts. They've
                                                    read it all before so why go back and
                                                    read it with new eyes and a changed
                                                    consciousness? However, it does make
                                                    one wonder why they've allowed them-
                                                    selves to be shackled to HK's dogma
                                                    when it's all based upon Twitchell's
                                                    "compilation."

                                                    In PT's Eckankar Dictionary, Shariyat
                                                    One and HK's First Lexicon, they
                                                    tell about the first "root race" called
                                                    the "POLARIANS." Klemp must agree
                                                    with Twitchell on this dogmatic information
                                                    since he put it into his own Eckankar
                                                    Lexicon.

                                                    But, do Eckists really believe in the
                                                    Old Testament Christian Myth about
                                                    the Garden of Eden? Actually, no,
                                                    they don't! I've even read where
                                                    they've made fun of this. How ironic!
                                                    Twitchell not only states that the
                                                    Garden of Eden existed but gives
                                                    his own (revised) names of those
                                                    present. In the ECK version Adam
                                                    becomes "Adom" and Eve becomes
                                                    "Ede" (like in Eden) This is, of course,
                                                    a clear picture of how Twitchell created
                                                    Eckankar. He took certain words,
                                                    names, and information changed
                                                    the text and letters around, or added
                                                    and omitted letters, and made the
                                                    info his own.

                                                    What's really funny is that in defense
                                                    of Twitchell Klemp has claimed that
                                                    Paul "compiled" only the highest teachings
                                                    from around the world in order to
                                                    create the highest "spiritual" teaching
                                                    anywhere and at anytime. Why then,
                                                    did Twitchell use the Garden of Eden
                                                    myth, and create Adom and Ede?
                                                    Is this supposed to be the actual
                                                    account while the Christian version
                                                    is less accurate. This is how Eckists
                                                    rationalize and explain everything
                                                    (the truth) away. ECK is a facsimile
                                                    and everything else is a copy. But
                                                    this shows that all religions are
                                                    distorted and inaccurate copies.

                                                    It really should be embarrassing,
                                                    for Eckists, since this information
                                                    is listed in their first Holy Book
                                                    under Polarian race (check the
                                                    index for the page number).

                                                    Plus, let's face it. This Garden
                                                    of Eden myth is a non-evolutionary
                                                    belief. It was devised during
                                                    a time of ignorance and pre-science
                                                    in order to give a religious explanation
                                                    for creation. And, it's been revised
                                                    even by early Christianity because
                                                    Lillith was supposed to have been
                                                    Adam's first mate who was created
                                                    equally with him.

                                                    Later, the creation myth story was
                                                    changed so that Eve was created
                                                    from Adam's rib in order to make
                                                    her subservient to him... as Eckists
                                                    are to subservient to Klemp. Thus,
                                                    no female LEMs and even Mahantas
                                                    are permitted due to some hokey
                                                    negative atom ekplanation.


                                                    But, Eckists are in denial of the truth
                                                    as they continue to pretend they
                                                    are advanced Souls. The mind is
                                                    very powerful and that's why Eckankar
                                                    appears to work for Eckists. The
                                                    mind will give one the dreams
                                                    and "signs" that are programmed
                                                    into it via suggestion and expectation.
                                                    However, isn't this the modus
                                                    operandi of all religions? If one
                                                    just Googles "miracles" one can
                                                    see examples of faith and belief
                                                    that would put any Eckist to shame.

                                                    Therefore, why do Eckists not
                                                    see the truth? Is it that they
                                                    have tied up their camels, to
                                                    a fraudent belief, and now, trust
                                                    in a make believe God/Mahanta...
                                                    Klemp? It is the Easy Way!

                                                    Prometheus




                                                    etznab@... wrote:
                                                    I think a lot of people can overlook this stuff, thinking that whatever
                                                    Paul Twitchell said/wrote must be the truth. Some people just might not
                                                    care. Well, it's reasonable to suspect this talent - for promotion,
                                                    even when it means making things up, stretching the truth, or just
                                                    plain spinning lies - was used to "create" the Eckankar mythos.

                                                    myth

                                                    1830, from Gk. mythos "speech, thought, story, myth," of unknown origin.

                                                    Myths are "stories about divine beings, generally arranged in a
                                                    coherent system; they are revered as true and sacred; they are endorsed
                                                    by rulers and priests; and closely linked to religion. Once this link
                                                    is broken, and the actors in the story are not regarded as gods but as
                                                    human heroes, giants or fairies, it is no longer a myth but a folktale.
                                                    Where the central actor is divine but the story is trivial ... the
                                                    result is religious legend, not myth." [J. Simpson & S. Roud,
                                                    "Dictionary of English Folklore," Oxford, 2000, p.254]

                                                    General sense of "untrue story, rumor" is from 1840.

                                                    http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=mythos&searchmode=\
                                                    \
                                                    none

                                                    In other words, amid all the compilations and recycled material, etc.,
                                                    context has been changed (in various places) when it comes to source. I
                                                    wonder, could Paul Twitchell have created "Eckankar" and at the same
                                                    time given the source for all of his material? I noticed Kirpal Singh
                                                    and others were very good at citing references and sharing what
                                                    quote/saying came from who. So if Paul Twitchell ever chose to use
                                                    passages and paragraphs from books, Did he always feel obligated to
                                                    provide that information?

                                                    As a promoter, I suspect the person wants to give credit to whatever
                                                    they're promoting and not give more credit to "other products" instead.
                                                    It makes sense (to me) that Paul Twitchell would "paint the name
                                                    Eckankar" over so much material he had read (in so many words). Not
                                                    only this, but it even appears probable that Paul Twitchell took
                                                    liberty to respell and redefine words according to fit them in a new,
                                                    and growing, Eckankar philosophy. Not only words, but names too!

                                                    How extensive the promotion and PR campaign that created contemporary
                                                    Eckankar teaching? In so many ways, it seems this is the part that
                                                    doesn't agree with people. Not unless they knew from the beginning that
                                                    information was not necessarily accurate and in some places embellished.

                                                    embellish

                                                    mid-14c., "to render beautiful," from O.Fr. embelliss-, stem of
                                                    embellir "make beautiful, ornament," from em- (see en- (1)) + bel
                                                    "beautiful," from L. bellus (see bene-). Meaning "dress up (a
                                                    narration) with fictitious matter" is from mid-15c. Related:
                                                    Embellished; embellishing.

                                                    http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=embellished&search\
                                                    \
                                                    mode=none

                                                    Reading through early Eckankar books I think common sense might tell a
                                                    person that parts of the material was embellished. At the same time I
                                                    also think people could naturally so much want the material to be true
                                                    that they allow imagination to "make it so" and overrule common sense.

                                                    Ever observe what happens when you're part of a group where countless
                                                    individuals believe in things - through imagination - that aren't
                                                    necessarily true? I mean, when you're one of the unbelievers and part
                                                    of the minority who question whether so many imagined things are true?


                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                    From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                                                    <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                                                    Sent: Sat, Sep 17, 2011 2:14 am
                                                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: "The Dark Side of ECKankar" -
                                                    And More!

                                                    Â
                                                    Hello Etznab and All,
                                                    This tells how Paul Twitchell
                                                    was His Own Drum Beater:

                                                    http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html

                                                    What's interesting is that at age 27 (1935)
                                                    Twitchell was saying that he had been
                                                    to India (supposedly at age 15 to meet
                                                    Rebazar for the first time, DOBTLEM).
                                                    However, Klemp points out that Twitchell
                                                    was doing another self-promotion, and
                                                    was lying in order to get into Who's Who
                                                    in Kentucky. Klemp states that Twitchell
                                                    had never been all that far from home
                                                    at age 27. Klemp seems to have stepped
                                                    into a big pile of Twits mess. HK's
                                                    statement contradicts what Twitchell
                                                    revealed in Difficulties of Becoming the
                                                    Living ECK Master circa July, 1971. This
                                                    1971 date is, supposedly, long after Twitchell
                                                    (the Mahanta) was was no longer "exaggerating"
                                                    and "twisting facts." However, as Klemp
                                                    has pointed out Twitchell was still lying
                                                    and promoting his con up until his untimely
                                                    and death in September, 1971.

                                                    Prometheus

                                                    etznab@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > Almost didn't see this response because the e-mail bounced.
                                                    >
                                                    > Umm ... about the self-promotion, whatever, people can read about
                                                    some of the history here.
                                                    >
                                                    > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html
                                                    >
                                                    > Check out 4th paragraph of article entitled: Paul's Seal of
                                                    Approval.
                                                    >
                                                    > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                                                    "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Hello Etznab and All,
                                                    > > It is interesting that Twitchell
                                                    > > has his Rebazar character (the
                                                    > > "Master" who initiated him)
                                                    > > indicate that there were 8 Planes
                                                    > > just as Radhasomi and Ruhani
                                                    > > Satsang have listed in "The Path
                                                    > > of the Masters." Since Kirpal
                                                    > > Singh, of Ruhani Satsang, was
                                                    > > Paul's real life Master for ten years
                                                    > > it's no wonder that this dogma was
                                                    > > influential in the design of Eckankar.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Of course, Twitchell was constantly
                                                    > > tweaking, revising, and masking his
                                                    > > religious con as time went by.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > The Anami Lok (10th Plane where
                                                    > > "Sugmad" resides) didn't appear until
                                                    > > later. Did Rebazar simply forget to
                                                    > > mention this as well as the "Mahanta?"
                                                    > > Did RT think that Paul needed to be
                                                    > > spoon-fed and wasn't ready for this
                                                    > > advanced "spiritual" info? No, not really.
                                                    > > According to Twitchell he had been
                                                    > > given the 12th and "final initiation"
                                                    > > (to become LEM) back in 1951 by
                                                    > > Rebazar while on his "2nd" visit to
                                                    > > India. See, the timeline is off for this
                                                    > > ekplanation to be taken seriously as
                                                    > > well.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Therefore, there is no rational excuse
                                                    > > for these inconsistencies except to
                                                    > > admit that the "rascal" Twitchell was,
                                                    > > once again, "exaggerating" and "twisting
                                                    > > facts" as even Klemp has described
                                                    > > and said of him. Klemp, years ago,
                                                    > > had to admit that Twitchell was a self-
                                                    > > promoter and did or said whatever
                                                    > > he needed to do ("By Any Means Necessary")
                                                    > > in order to get Eckankar off the ground.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > This is why Klemp, at first, had a
                                                    > > difficult job of explaining Twitchell's
                                                    > > inconsistencies and needed to keep
                                                    > > Eckists confused, busy, and off-balance.
                                                    > > Now, Eckists are so brainwashed that
                                                    > > Klemp can say whatever in his simple
                                                    > > minded redundant versions of feel-good
                                                    > > New Age spirituality.
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Prometheus
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > etznab wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar
                                                    Tarzs
                                                    > > mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme.
                                                    Check the
                                                    > > index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with
                                                    the Master.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless
                                                    region,
                                                    > > [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called
                                                    THE FACE OF
                                                    > > GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying:
                                                    [Quoting]
                                                    > > "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the
                                                    light of
                                                    > > God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes
                                                    could not look
                                                    > > upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean
                                                    of Love
                                                    > > and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return
                                                    in time."
                                                    > > (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in
                                                    the House
                                                    > > of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens.
                                                    Ye cannot
                                                    > > go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with
                                                    my divine
                                                    > > self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in
                                                    the divine
                                                    > > cause!"
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the
                                                    Master, has
                                                    > > Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting
                                                    snippet]:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in
                                                    a
                                                    > > mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
                                                    > > attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
                                                    > > "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
                                                    after
                                                    > > this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul
                                                    reaches
                                                    > > the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or
                                                    the SUGMAD,
                                                    > > the supreme LORD of all that exists."
                                                    > >
                                                    > > http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the
                                                    description
                                                    > > slightly:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the
                                                    Sat Nam in
                                                    > > a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in
                                                    all Sat
                                                    > > Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the
                                                    three
                                                    > > remaining known planes.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha,
                                                    and
                                                    > > after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam
                                                    Purusha, or
                                                    > > lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region
                                                    of the
                                                    > > nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first
                                                    you know
                                                    > > about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the
                                                    Divine.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."
                                                    > >
                                                    > > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is
                                                    illustrated (by
                                                    > > Paul Twitchell) slightly different.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam
                                                    Lok.
                                                    > > Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the
                                                    end of its
                                                    > > journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the
                                                    supreme
                                                    > > lord of all that exists."
                                                    > >
                                                    > > http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html
                                                    > >
                                                    > > The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok,
                                                    Alak Lok,
                                                    > > Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with
                                                    Ocean of
                                                    > > Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip
                                                    mention of
                                                    > > Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master,
                                                    Introduction to
                                                    > > Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes
                                                    similarly, and
                                                    > > in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain
                                                    sections from
                                                    > > The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit
                                                    is
                                                    > > expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal,
                                                    Nirala,
                                                    > > Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
                                                    > > Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country
                                                    > >
                                                    > > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
                                                    > >
                                                    > > "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many
                                                    words, such
                                                    > > as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala,
                                                    Anami, Agam,
                                                    > > Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar,
                                                    Parameshwar,
                                                    > > Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters
                                                    > >
                                                    > > http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent
                                                    from the
                                                    > > Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR
                                                    vs.
                                                    > > Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian
                                                    Johnson's book,
                                                    > > The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The
                                                    Far
                                                    > > Country, by at least three decades!
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word,
                                                    trademarked
                                                    > > it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is
                                                    somehow more
                                                    > > than a paraphrase.
                                                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.