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Re: Krishnamurti - Another View

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  • prometheus_973
    Hello Diana, IMO-It is true that we first look to our parents as authority figures and then to teachers and to the clergy, etc.. We are also taught to see
    Message 1 of 10 , Jan 31, 2011
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      Hello Diana,
      IMO-It is true that we first look
      to our parents as authority figures
      and then to teachers and to the
      clergy, etc.. We are also taught to
      see others as authority figures
      such as the police or others in
      our social, religious, and political
      hierarchies.

      I'm not so sure about "peers"
      since we need to elevate people
      to a status higher than ourselves.

      In college we had professors upon
      pedestals, too, and then later when
      I got to know some of these PH.Ds
      and MDs on a personal level that
      was corrected. The same takes place
      within religion. Those deemed
      "closer to God" or more "spiritual"
      and knowledgable of the dogma
      are held in high esteem, until, if
      we're lucky we are able to see them
      for what they are. At one time I had
      certain ECKists upon pedestals and
      as I learned more and had more clarity
      of consciousness I saw through that
      mindset and the error in that belief.

      There are always "experts" out there
      and/or those for us to admire, but
      that's the problem. We can use what
      others give us but we have to be careful
      with placing them above us.

      In Eckankar I was given one piece of
      information, or a perspective, that
      prepared me to see more clearly when
      Ford came out with the truth about
      Twitchell and the others including
      Klemp. It was, "Soul equals Soul."

      Once we take everyone down off their
      pedestals that we've placed them upon,
      or they've placed themselves upon, then
      we can start seeing them as being "peer."
      But, this isn't what they want us to see,
      nor what we, ourselves, desire either!

      Sure, many people have special talents
      that either come naturally or with lots
      of effort, but it still doesn't mean that
      they are better than any of us. However,
      one's ego wants and needs them to be
      special and in control, plus, they like the
      attention. For some people, even negative
      attention is better than being ignored.
      This is why some children act up. The
      negative attention is better than none
      at all.

      Klemp likes attention but not the
      responsibilities he's created for himself.
      This is why he never takes responsibility
      on any level even though he is responsible
      for all decisions made at and coming from
      the ESC. Instead, Klemp hits the ball back
      into the court of the Initiates under him.
      It's always their fault and their responsibility
      and not his. HK's above responsibility and
      "is a law unto himself."

      But, if it wasn't for Darwin Gross Klemp
      would either be a 7th or 8th initiate and still
      be working at the ESC. He's nothing special.
      But, now, he always has to let EKists know
      who's in charge. He's always introduced, or
      mentioning that he's the (14th Initiate) Mahanta/
      LEM i.e. the ECK, the Godman. Then he says
      I'm not perfect or I'm just like you and you
      aren't to worship (me) the Mahanta. But,
      when one is encouraged to have complete
      reliance upon the Mahanta/God (Klemp) for
      all things and to stare at his picture or to
      dream about him, then, what does this really
      say? I don't see a "Soul=Soul" or "I'm not
      perfect" image being projected... just the
      opposite!

      Anyway, this is the "trap" AND the "test"
      that people go through. What we should
      be doing is sharing this admiration and
      high esteem with ourselves. Let's assume
      that Soul equals Soul. Therefore, as Soul,
      we can all share in the divine nature that
      other Souls project. But, what about the
      harm that Souls do to other Souls?

      Life is both a series of traps and tests.
      We try to do what's best, or we deem
      best, while limiting the negative effects
      of what both the traps and tests have
      upon us. Sometimes we create or cause
      our own traps and tests and sometimes
      others, or nature, does that for us. It's
      hard to say how much "karma" or divine
      nudges are involved with this experiment
      of life. It's a mystery that we have to seek
      to uncover for ourselves and with a little
      help from our friends.

      Prometheus

      dianastanley wrote:

      The first people we look to for answers
      is are parents. Then peers and teachers.
      Always thinking some one must have
      the answers to our questions. When
      we become interested in finding God
      we either follow are parents religion
      or begin a search.

      I don't know how many books I read,
      paths I followed until I discovered
      that if you are in your house you
      don't need a path to find it. The book
      Quantum Consciousness by Steven
      wolinsky started me on the journey
      back to myself. I can say from experience
      that following someone else is a lot
      easier plus you have someone to blame
      if it doesn't work out!!!!

      Diana

      prometheus wrote:
      >
      > Hello Etznab,
      > Upon thinking about it
      > I'd like to change a remark
      > I made. I said, "But, people
      > were never supposed to
      > follow another." When I
      > thought about this I saw
      > that it was far from accurate.
      >
      > We started out being followers
      > of stronger and more clever
      > leaders and even in nature
      > there are pecking orders. When
      > we look at societies and clubs
      > and organizations and political
      > parties, sports teams, religions,
      > etc. we can plainly see that humans
      > tend to like, follow, and hold in
      > higher esteem those stronger,
      > faster, more skilled, smarter,
      > knowledgable, or "spiritual"
      > than themselves. Most of our
      > opinions in these matters, of
      > course, are subjective. And,
      > they (we) tend to join groups
      > of like minded people in order
      > to feel good about ourselves.
      > After all, 'Misery loves company;
      > The more the merrier;' and, 'Might
      > makes right!'
      >
      > But, unlike religion and other
      > group endeavors, true "spirituality"
      > is not a team sport or group effort.
      > Eckists have been tricked into
      > thinking that it is.
      >
      > Prometheus
      >
      > prometheus wrote:
      >
      > Hello Etznab,
      >
      > I agree, religions were never
      > supposed to be. The spiritual
      > is individualistic, personal and
      > unique to each Soul.
      >
      > People tend to see their own
      > short comings and failures
      > while putting others upon
      > pedestals. They need to admire
      > and worship a leader due to
      > their own guilt and shame
      > and laziness. Doesn't it usually
      > takes less effort and thought
      > to be a follower? Plus, people
      > need hope when they experience
      > inequities in government and/
      > or in life.
      >
      > But, people were never
      > supposed to follow another.
      > They were to learn some
      > things from others but see
      > the lessons in their own lives.
      > They are supposed to see
      > and learn from their own
      > tests. However, there are
      > always those that take advantage
      > of the weak minded and of
      > opportunities to trick people.
      >
      > Most of these preachers, like
      > Klemp, try to rationalize, at
      > times, and claim they are doing
      > good. But they know the truth
      > behind the smoke and mirrors.
      > Klemp is a conman and not a
      > godman. And, at the same time,
      > he's making a lot of money and
      > will never share how much it
      > really is with his flock of sheep.
      >
      > Jesus, supposedly, said that the
      > kingdom of heaven is within...
      > and then they made another
      > religion out of his teachings
      > when he was merely sharing
      > the truth he learned for himself.
      >
      > Once religions get their hooks
      > into people it's for life. Look at
      > Eckankar. Supposedly at the 7th
      > initiation one is free to leave, but
      > when you read a bit further you
      > see that you can't because of the
      > fear of what could happen to you
      > or shouldn't because of more greatness
      > to come. It's that push/pull technique
      > that Twit shared in Letters to Gail 3.
      >
      > After awhile ECKists start believing
      > their own hype and the timid become
      > almost as arrogant and self absorbed
      > as the narcissists. All become even
      > more delusional as time goes by and
      > then they pass it on to the next generation.
      > What ECKists don't understand, and
      > refuse to see, is that belief in Eckankar
      > is the actual trap/test and a continuation
      > of the Wheel of 84!
      >
      > Prometheus
      >
      >
      >
      > etznab wrote:
      >
      > Was updating some files recently
      > and came across an old link. I read
      > this years ago, but today it has new
      > meaning.
      >
      > Quoting:
      >
      > It has been my practice to listen to everybody, always. I desired to learn,
      from
      > the gardener, from the pariah, from the untouch able, from my neighbour, from
      my
      > friend, from everything that could teach, in order to become one with the
      > Beloved. When I had listened to all, and gathered the Truth wher ever I found
      > it, I was able to develop myself fully. Now you are waiting for the Truth to
      > come - out of one person; you are waiting for that Truth to be developed, to
      be
      > forced upon you by authority, and you are worshipping that person instead of
      the
      > Truth. When Krishnamurti dies, which is inevitable, you will make a religion,
      > you will set about forming rules in your minds, because the individual,
      > Krishnamurti, has represented to you the Truth; so you will build a temple,
      you
      > will then begin to have ceremonies, to invent phrases.,dogmas, systems of
      > beliefs, creeds, and to create philos ophies. If you build great foundations
      > upon me, the individual, you will be caught in that house, in that temple, and
      > so you will have to have another Teacher to come and extricate you from that
      > temple, pull you out of that narrowness in order to liberate you; but the
      human
      > mind is such that you will build another temple round Him, and so it will go
      on
      > and on. But those who understand, who do not depend on authority, who hold all
      > peoples in their hearts, will not build temples - they will really understand.
      > [....]
      >
      > http://norea.net/krishnamurti/truth.htm
      >
      > Krishnamurti (IMO) was chosen (in his youth), groomed and propped up by the
      > Theosophical Society to be some sort of "World Teacher". In the end, he
      > apparently went his own way.
      >
      > "[....] His new direction reached a climax in 1929, when he rebuffed attempts
      by
      > Leadbeater and Besant to continue with the Order of the Star. Krishnamurti
      > dissolved the Order during the annual Star Camp at Ommen, the Netherlands, on
      3
      > August 1929[83] in front of Annie Besant, three thousand members, and a radio
      > audience.[84] In the so-called Dissolution Speech, he stated that he made his
      > decision after 'careful consideration' during the previous two years, ... .
      > [....]"
      >
      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiddu_Krishnamurti#Break_with_the_past
      >
      > I thought some interesting things were mentioned in the first link about Who
      > Brings the Truth? My impression was that Krishnamurti was breaking away from
      > dogma built up around him by others and was asking people to find the truth
      for
      > themselves. Interesting that.
      >
      > Did Paul Twitchell, Darwin Gross or Harold Klemp do this for members and
      > followers of Eckankar? Perhaps some of it in the wording of Eck teachings but,
      > as the organization grew, so the "Mahanta" mythology also grew. Eventually
      there
      > would come a time (1980s) where people were asked (told?) to choose between
      one
      > person or another. Darwin or Harold, it seems. And this kind of thing is not
      > unique to Eckankar.
      > Other groups have fought over succession, or who was the rightful and
      authentic
      > "Teacher". I'm not only talking Shiite and Sunni.
      >
      > The symbol of "World Teacher" was something become popular during the 20th
      > century (at least). The latter 1800s and early 1900s saw numbers of people who
      > later contributed to "spiritual movements" in some way. Sant Mat and
      Radhasoami
      > evolved in parallel with other similar groups who looked to a form of
      "Teacher".
      > And though the titles appear to be different, the concept appears basically
      the
      > same. God's "so-called" representative on earth in the form of a single
      person,
      > guru, master, etc. Is this what the heart of the teachings held? Or something
      > that so many people in a congregation created / made into a seemingly literal
      > truth?
      >
      > I'm not sure Krishnamurti was describing himself as a "World Teacher".
      > It sounded (to me) like he suggested "The Beloved" was in all people and
      things.
      > As a speaker, he reminded me about a number of other speakers that people had
      > propped up as "this" or "that". And - much like them - Krishnamurti appeared
      to
      > say that "the truth was within".
      >
      > And so this is what it (Religion, New Age, etc.) appears to come down to, to
      me.
      > That the "Teacher" is defaulting to the "Student" for the ultimate truth.
      >
      > How ironic that people found all these teachings, and all these gurus, so in
      the
      > end they can be told NOT to follow them, but follow their own experience and
      > inner guidance above all.
      >
      > Of course, it might help the followers if the teachers would admit to (and
      > further clarify and correct) those elements of pseudo history / religion
      > propagated by churches and groups. IMHO.
      >
      > Etznab
      >
    • dianastanley43
      Very true. I am of the opinion now that on a quantum level every atom has couniousness and it the same as every other atom. I am inclined to beleive that
      Message 2 of 10 , Feb 1, 2011
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        Very true. I am of the opinion now that on a quantum level every atom has couniousness and it the same as every other atom. I am inclined to beleive that every soul is the same as every other soul. It is identifying with the body we are in that makes us feel speacial and different from others. When in fact there is no difference.
        Diana
        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello Diana,
        > IMO-It is true that we first look
        > to our parents as authority figures
        > and then to teachers and to the
        > clergy, etc.. We are also taught to
        > see others as authority figures
        > such as the police or others in
        > our social, religious, and political
        > hierarchies.
        >
        > I'm not so sure about "peers"
        > since we need to elevate people
        > to a status higher than ourselves.
        >
        > In college we had professors upon
        > pedestals, too, and then later when
        > I got to know some of these PH.Ds
        > and MDs on a personal level that
        > was corrected. The same takes place
        > within religion. Those deemed
        > "closer to God" or more "spiritual"
        > and knowledgable of the dogma
        > are held in high esteem, until, if
        > we're lucky we are able to see them
        > for what they are. At one time I had
        > certain ECKists upon pedestals and
        > as I learned more and had more clarity
        > of consciousness I saw through that
        > mindset and the error in that belief.
        >
        > There are always "experts" out there
        > and/or those for us to admire, but
        > that's the problem. We can use what
        > others give us but we have to be careful
        > with placing them above us.
        >
        > In Eckankar I was given one piece of
        > information, or a perspective, that
        > prepared me to see more clearly when
        > Ford came out with the truth about
        > Twitchell and the others including
        > Klemp. It was, "Soul equals Soul."
        >
        > Once we take everyone down off their
        > pedestals that we've placed them upon,
        > or they've placed themselves upon, then
        > we can start seeing them as being "peer."
        > But, this isn't what they want us to see,
        > nor what we, ourselves, desire either!
        >
        > Sure, many people have special talents
        > that either come naturally or with lots
        > of effort, but it still doesn't mean that
        > they are better than any of us. However,
        > one's ego wants and needs them to be
        > special and in control, plus, they like the
        > attention. For some people, even negative
        > attention is better than being ignored.
        > This is why some children act up. The
        > negative attention is better than none
        > at all.
        >
        > Klemp likes attention but not the
        > responsibilities he's created for himself.
        > This is why he never takes responsibility
        > on any level even though he is responsible
        > for all decisions made at and coming from
        > the ESC. Instead, Klemp hits the ball back
        > into the court of the Initiates under him.
        > It's always their fault and their responsibility
        > and not his. HK's above responsibility and
        > "is a law unto himself."
        >
        > But, if it wasn't for Darwin Gross Klemp
        > would either be a 7th or 8th initiate and still
        > be working at the ESC. He's nothing special.
        > But, now, he always has to let EKists know
        > who's in charge. He's always introduced, or
        > mentioning that he's the (14th Initiate) Mahanta/
        > LEM i.e. the ECK, the Godman. Then he says
        > I'm not perfect or I'm just like you and you
        > aren't to worship (me) the Mahanta. But,
        > when one is encouraged to have complete
        > reliance upon the Mahanta/God (Klemp) for
        > all things and to stare at his picture or to
        > dream about him, then, what does this really
        > say? I don't see a "Soul=Soul" or "I'm not
        > perfect" image being projected... just the
        > opposite!
        >
        > Anyway, this is the "trap" AND the "test"
        > that people go through. What we should
        > be doing is sharing this admiration and
        > high esteem with ourselves. Let's assume
        > that Soul equals Soul. Therefore, as Soul,
        > we can all share in the divine nature that
        > other Souls project. But, what about the
        > harm that Souls do to other Souls?
        >
        > Life is both a series of traps and tests.
        > We try to do what's best, or we deem
        > best, while limiting the negative effects
        > of what both the traps and tests have
        > upon us. Sometimes we create or cause
        > our own traps and tests and sometimes
        > others, or nature, does that for us. It's
        > hard to say how much "karma" or divine
        > nudges are involved with this experiment
        > of life. It's a mystery that we have to seek
        > to uncover for ourselves and with a little
        > help from our friends.
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
        > dianastanley wrote:
        >
        > The first people we look to for answers
        > is are parents. Then peers and teachers.
        > Always thinking some one must have
        > the answers to our questions. When
        > we become interested in finding God
        > we either follow are parents religion
        > or begin a search.
        >
        > I don't know how many books I read,
        > paths I followed until I discovered
        > that if you are in your house you
        > don't need a path to find it. The book
        > Quantum Consciousness by Steven
        > wolinsky started me on the journey
        > back to myself. I can say from experience
        > that following someone else is a lot
        > easier plus you have someone to blame
        > if it doesn't work out!!!!
        >
        > Diana
        >
        > prometheus wrote:
        > >
        > > Hello Etznab,
        > > Upon thinking about it
        > > I'd like to change a remark
        > > I made. I said, "But, people
        > > were never supposed to
        > > follow another." When I
        > > thought about this I saw
        > > that it was far from accurate.
        > >
        > > We started out being followers
        > > of stronger and more clever
        > > leaders and even in nature
        > > there are pecking orders. When
        > > we look at societies and clubs
        > > and organizations and political
        > > parties, sports teams, religions,
        > > etc. we can plainly see that humans
        > > tend to like, follow, and hold in
        > > higher esteem those stronger,
        > > faster, more skilled, smarter,
        > > knowledgable, or "spiritual"
        > > than themselves. Most of our
        > > opinions in these matters, of
        > > course, are subjective. And,
        > > they (we) tend to join groups
        > > of like minded people in order
        > > to feel good about ourselves.
        > > After all, 'Misery loves company;
        > > The more the merrier;' and, 'Might
        > > makes right!'
        > >
        > > But, unlike religion and other
        > > group endeavors, true "spirituality"
        > > is not a team sport or group effort.
        > > Eckists have been tricked into
        > > thinking that it is.
        > >
        > > Prometheus
        > >
        > > prometheus wrote:
        > >
        > > Hello Etznab,
        > >
        > > I agree, religions were never
        > > supposed to be. The spiritual
        > > is individualistic, personal and
        > > unique to each Soul.
        > >
        > > People tend to see their own
        > > short comings and failures
        > > while putting others upon
        > > pedestals. They need to admire
        > > and worship a leader due to
        > > their own guilt and shame
        > > and laziness. Doesn't it usually
        > > takes less effort and thought
        > > to be a follower? Plus, people
        > > need hope when they experience
        > > inequities in government and/
        > > or in life.
        > >
        > > But, people were never
        > > supposed to follow another.
        > > They were to learn some
        > > things from others but see
        > > the lessons in their own lives.
        > > They are supposed to see
        > > and learn from their own
        > > tests. However, there are
        > > always those that take advantage
        > > of the weak minded and of
        > > opportunities to trick people.
        > >
        > > Most of these preachers, like
        > > Klemp, try to rationalize, at
        > > times, and claim they are doing
        > > good. But they know the truth
        > > behind the smoke and mirrors.
        > > Klemp is a conman and not a
        > > godman. And, at the same time,
        > > he's making a lot of money and
        > > will never share how much it
        > > really is with his flock of sheep.
        > >
        > > Jesus, supposedly, said that the
        > > kingdom of heaven is within...
        > > and then they made another
        > > religion out of his teachings
        > > when he was merely sharing
        > > the truth he learned for himself.
        > >
        > > Once religions get their hooks
        > > into people it's for life. Look at
        > > Eckankar. Supposedly at the 7th
        > > initiation one is free to leave, but
        > > when you read a bit further you
        > > see that you can't because of the
        > > fear of what could happen to you
        > > or shouldn't because of more greatness
        > > to come. It's that push/pull technique
        > > that Twit shared in Letters to Gail 3.
        > >
        > > After awhile ECKists start believing
        > > their own hype and the timid become
        > > almost as arrogant and self absorbed
        > > as the narcissists. All become even
        > > more delusional as time goes by and
        > > then they pass it on to the next generation.
        > > What ECKists don't understand, and
        > > refuse to see, is that belief in Eckankar
        > > is the actual trap/test and a continuation
        > > of the Wheel of 84!
        > >
        > > Prometheus
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > etznab wrote:
        > >
        > > Was updating some files recently
        > > and came across an old link. I read
        > > this years ago, but today it has new
        > > meaning.
        > >
        > > Quoting:
        > >
        > > It has been my practice to listen to everybody, always. I desired to learn,
        > from
        > > the gardener, from the pariah, from the untouch able, from my neighbour, from
        > my
        > > friend, from everything that could teach, in order to become one with the
        > > Beloved. When I had listened to all, and gathered the Truth wher ever I found
        > > it, I was able to develop myself fully. Now you are waiting for the Truth to
        > > come - out of one person; you are waiting for that Truth to be developed, to
        > be
        > > forced upon you by authority, and you are worshipping that person instead of
        > the
        > > Truth. When Krishnamurti dies, which is inevitable, you will make a religion,
        > > you will set about forming rules in your minds, because the individual,
        > > Krishnamurti, has represented to you the Truth; so you will build a temple,
        > you
        > > will then begin to have ceremonies, to invent phrases.,dogmas, systems of
        > > beliefs, creeds, and to create philos ophies. If you build great foundations
        > > upon me, the individual, you will be caught in that house, in that temple, and
        > > so you will have to have another Teacher to come and extricate you from that
        > > temple, pull you out of that narrowness in order to liberate you; but the
        > human
        > > mind is such that you will build another temple round Him, and so it will go
        > on
        > > and on. But those who understand, who do not depend on authority, who hold all
        > > peoples in their hearts, will not build temples - they will really understand.
        > > [....]
        > >
        > > http://norea.net/krishnamurti/truth.htm
        > >
        > > Krishnamurti (IMO) was chosen (in his youth), groomed and propped up by the
        > > Theosophical Society to be some sort of "World Teacher". In the end, he
        > > apparently went his own way.
        > >
        > > "[....] His new direction reached a climax in 1929, when he rebuffed attempts
        > by
        > > Leadbeater and Besant to continue with the Order of the Star. Krishnamurti
        > > dissolved the Order during the annual Star Camp at Ommen, the Netherlands, on
        > 3
        > > August 1929[83] in front of Annie Besant, three thousand members, and a radio
        > > audience.[84] In the so-called Dissolution Speech, he stated that he made his
        > > decision after 'careful consideration' during the previous two years, ... .
        > > [....]"
        > >
        > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiddu_Krishnamurti#Break_with_the_past
        > >
        > > I thought some interesting things were mentioned in the first link about Who
        > > Brings the Truth? My impression was that Krishnamurti was breaking away from
        > > dogma built up around him by others and was asking people to find the truth
        > for
        > > themselves. Interesting that.
        > >
        > > Did Paul Twitchell, Darwin Gross or Harold Klemp do this for members and
        > > followers of Eckankar? Perhaps some of it in the wording of Eck teachings but,
        > > as the organization grew, so the "Mahanta" mythology also grew. Eventually
        > there
        > > would come a time (1980s) where people were asked (told?) to choose between
        > one
        > > person or another. Darwin or Harold, it seems. And this kind of thing is not
        > > unique to Eckankar.
        > > Other groups have fought over succession, or who was the rightful and
        > authentic
        > > "Teacher". I'm not only talking Shiite and Sunni.
        > >
        > > The symbol of "World Teacher" was something become popular during the 20th
        > > century (at least). The latter 1800s and early 1900s saw numbers of people who
        > > later contributed to "spiritual movements" in some way. Sant Mat and
        > Radhasoami
        > > evolved in parallel with other similar groups who looked to a form of
        > "Teacher".
        > > And though the titles appear to be different, the concept appears basically
        > the
        > > same. God's "so-called" representative on earth in the form of a single
        > person,
        > > guru, master, etc. Is this what the heart of the teachings held? Or something
        > > that so many people in a congregation created / made into a seemingly literal
        > > truth?
        > >
        > > I'm not sure Krishnamurti was describing himself as a "World Teacher".
        > > It sounded (to me) like he suggested "The Beloved" was in all people and
        > things.
        > > As a speaker, he reminded me about a number of other speakers that people had
        > > propped up as "this" or "that". And - much like them - Krishnamurti appeared
        > to
        > > say that "the truth was within".
        > >
        > > And so this is what it (Religion, New Age, etc.) appears to come down to, to
        > me.
        > > That the "Teacher" is defaulting to the "Student" for the ultimate truth.
        > >
        > > How ironic that people found all these teachings, and all these gurus, so in
        > the
        > > end they can be told NOT to follow them, but follow their own experience and
        > > inner guidance above all.
        > >
        > > Of course, it might help the followers if the teachers would admit to (and
        > > further clarify and correct) those elements of pseudo history / religion
        > > propagated by churches and groups. IMHO.
        > >
        > > Etznab
        > >
        >
      • prometheus_973
        Hello Diana and All, One of the biggest lies, and fraud, is to say that women aren t equal to men. Eckankar contradicts itself and has a typical ekplanation as
        Message 3 of 10 , Feb 2, 2011
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          Hello Diana and All,
          One of the biggest lies, and
          fraud, is to say that women
          aren't equal to men. Eckankar
          contradicts itself and has a
          typical ekplanation as to why
          women can't be the LEM while
          being an EK Master like Kata Daki.
          Twitchell's negative atom/battery
          excuse is just more of the same
          we see in all manmade/male run
          religions.

          Supposedly, on the physical
          plane, the negative atom thing
          is the only reason why females
          can't be the LEM. This mysterious
          "fact" is what keeps women in
          their place as servants to the
          male LEM/Mahanta.

          It seems that every religion has
          some sort of myth, dogma, law,
          rule, excuse that has the same
          effect... to keep women in their
          place as second class citizens or
          members.

          On TV recently there was a show
          that shared things that were taken
          out of the Bible. Apparently there
          was a woman that came before Eve.
          Her name was Lillith and she was
          created by God the same as Adam.
          She was Adam's equal and this caused
          conflict. They were not to call God
          by his real name but she did and was
          taken up into heaven and didn't want
          to return. Anyway there's more to the
          story than that but apparently Adam
          asked for a woman that would be
          or lie beneath him. This is why Eve
          was created out of Adam's rib. The
          story about Lillith was taken out of
          the Bible because they (the church
          elders) didn't want women to think
          they were the equals to men.

          BTW- Eckankar believes this Garden
          of Eden Myth too. They say that the
          "Polarians" were the first race but
          Paul changed it up some and claims
          "ADOM" was the first man and "EDE"
          was the first woman. The inequality
          remains the same.

          Prometheus


          dianastanley wrote:
          Very true. I am of the opinion now
          that on a quantum level every atom
          has couniousness and it the same
          as every other atom. I am inclined
          to beleive that every soul is the same
          as every other soul. It is identifying
          with the body we are in that makes
          us feel speacial and different from
          others. When in fact there is no difference.

          Diana

          prometheus_973@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hello Diana,
          > IMO-It is true that we first look
          > to our parents as authority figures
          > and then to teachers and to the
          > clergy, etc.. We are also taught to
          > see others as authority figures
          > such as the police or others in
          > our social, religious, and political
          > hierarchies.
          >
          > I'm not so sure about "peers"
          > since we need to elevate people
          > to a status higher than ourselves.
          >
          > In college we had professors upon
          > pedestals, too, and then later when
          > I got to know some of these PH.Ds
          > and MDs on a personal level that
          > was corrected. The same takes place
          > within religion. Those deemed
          > "closer to God" or more "spiritual"
          > and knowledgable of the dogma
          > are held in high esteem, until, if
          > we're lucky we are able to see them
          > for what they are. At one time I had
          > certain ECKists upon pedestals and
          > as I learned more and had more clarity
          > of consciousness I saw through that
          > mindset and the error in that belief.
          >
          > There are always "experts" out there
          > and/or those for us to admire, but
          > that's the problem. We can use what
          > others give us but we have to be careful
          > with placing them above us.
          >
          > In Eckankar I was given one piece of
          > information, or a perspective, that
          > prepared me to see more clearly when
          > Ford came out with the truth about
          > Twitchell and the others including
          > Klemp. It was, "Soul equals Soul."
          >
          > Once we take everyone down off their
          > pedestals that we've placed them upon,
          > or they've placed themselves upon, then
          > we can start seeing them as being "peer."
          > But, this isn't what they want us to see,
          > nor what we, ourselves, desire either!
          >
          > Sure, many people have special talents
          > that either come naturally or with lots
          > of effort, but it still doesn't mean that
          > they are better than any of us. However,
          > one's ego wants and needs them to be
          > special and in control, plus, they like the
          > attention. For some people, even negative
          > attention is better than being ignored.
          > This is why some children act up. The
          > negative attention is better than none
          > at all.
          >
          > Klemp likes attention but not the
          > responsibilities he's created for himself.
          > This is why he never takes responsibility
          > on any level even though he is responsible
          > for all decisions made at and coming from
          > the ESC. Instead, Klemp hits the ball back
          > into the court of the Initiates under him.
          > It's always their fault and their responsibility
          > and not his. HK's above responsibility and
          > "is a law unto himself."
          >
          > But, if it wasn't for Darwin Gross Klemp
          > would either be a 7th or 8th initiate and still
          > be working at the ESC. He's nothing special.
          > But, now, he always has to let EKists know
          > who's in charge. He's always introduced, or
          > mentioning that he's the (14th Initiate) Mahanta/
          > LEM i.e. the ECK, the Godman. Then he says
          > I'm not perfect or I'm just like you and you
          > aren't to worship (me) the Mahanta. But,
          > when one is encouraged to have complete
          > reliance upon the Mahanta/God (Klemp) for
          > all things and to stare at his picture or to
          > dream about him, then, what does this really
          > say? I don't see a "Soul=Soul" or "I'm not
          > perfect" image being projected... just the
          > opposite!
          >
          > Anyway, this is the "trap" AND the "test"
          > that people go through. What we should
          > be doing is sharing this admiration and
          > high esteem with ourselves. Let's assume
          > that Soul equals Soul. Therefore, as Soul,
          > we can all share in the divine nature that
          > other Souls project. But, what about the
          > harm that Souls do to other Souls?
          >
          > Life is both a series of traps and tests.
          > We try to do what's best, or we deem
          > best, while limiting the negative effects
          > of what both the traps and tests have
          > upon us. Sometimes we create or cause
          > our own traps and tests and sometimes
          > others, or nature, does that for us. It's
          > hard to say how much "karma" or divine
          > nudges are involved with this experiment
          > of life. It's a mystery that we have to seek
          > to uncover for ourselves and with a little
          > help from our friends.
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
          > dianastanley wrote:
          >
          > The first people we look to for answers
          > is are parents. Then peers and teachers.
          > Always thinking some one must have
          > the answers to our questions. When
          > we become interested in finding God
          > we either follow are parents religion
          > or begin a search.
          >
          > I don't know how many books I read,
          > paths I followed until I discovered
          > that if you are in your house you
          > don't need a path to find it. The book
          > Quantum Consciousness by Steven
          > wolinsky started me on the journey
          > back to myself. I can say from experience
          > that following someone else is a lot
          > easier plus you have someone to blame
          > if it doesn't work out!!!!
          >
          > Diana
          >
          > prometheus wrote:
          > >
          > > Hello Etznab,
          > > Upon thinking about it
          > > I'd like to change a remark
          > > I made. I said, "But, people
          > > were never supposed to
          > > follow another." When I
          > > thought about this I saw
          > > that it was far from accurate.
          > >
          > > We started out being followers
          > > of stronger and more clever
          > > leaders and even in nature
          > > there are pecking orders. When
          > > we look at societies and clubs
          > > and organizations and political
          > > parties, sports teams, religions,
          > > etc. we can plainly see that humans
          > > tend to like, follow, and hold in
          > > higher esteem those stronger,
          > > faster, more skilled, smarter,
          > > knowledgable, or "spiritual"
          > > than themselves. Most of our
          > > opinions in these matters, of
          > > course, are subjective. And,
          > > they (we) tend to join groups
          > > of like minded people in order
          > > to feel good about ourselves.
          > > After all, 'Misery loves company;
          > > The more the merrier;' and, 'Might
          > > makes right!'
          > >
          > > But, unlike religion and other
          > > group endeavors, true "spirituality"
          > > is not a team sport or group effort.
          > > Eckists have been tricked into
          > > thinking that it is.
          > >
          > > Prometheus
          > >
          > > prometheus wrote:
          > >
          > > Hello Etznab,
          > >
          > > I agree, religions were never
          > > supposed to be. The spiritual
          > > is individualistic, personal and
          > > unique to each Soul.
          > >
          > > People tend to see their own
          > > short comings and failures
          > > while putting others upon
          > > pedestals. They need to admire
          > > and worship a leader due to
          > > their own guilt and shame
          > > and laziness. Doesn't it usually
          > > takes less effort and thought
          > > to be a follower? Plus, people
          > > need hope when they experience
          > > inequities in government and/
          > > or in life.
          > >
          > > But, people were never
          > > supposed to follow another.
          > > They were to learn some
          > > things from others but see
          > > the lessons in their own lives.
          > > They are supposed to see
          > > and learn from their own
          > > tests. However, there are
          > > always those that take advantage
          > > of the weak minded and of
          > > opportunities to trick people.
          > >
          > > Most of these preachers, like
          > > Klemp, try to rationalize, at
          > > times, and claim they are doing
          > > good. But they know the truth
          > > behind the smoke and mirrors.
          > > Klemp is a conman and not a
          > > godman. And, at the same time,
          > > he's making a lot of money and
          > > will never share how much it
          > > really is with his flock of sheep.
          > >
          > > Jesus, supposedly, said that the
          > > kingdom of heaven is within...
          > > and then they made another
          > > religion out of his teachings
          > > when he was merely sharing
          > > the truth he learned for himself.
          > >
          > > Once religions get their hooks
          > > into people it's for life. Look at
          > > Eckankar. Supposedly at the 7th
          > > initiation one is free to leave, but
          > > when you read a bit further you
          > > see that you can't because of the
          > > fear of what could happen to you
          > > or shouldn't because of more greatness
          > > to come. It's that push/pull technique
          > > that Twit shared in Letters to Gail 3.
          > >
          > > After awhile ECKists start believing
          > > their own hype and the timid become
          > > almost as arrogant and self absorbed
          > > as the narcissists. All become even
          > > more delusional as time goes by and
          > > then they pass it on to the next generation.
          > > What ECKists don't understand, and
          > > refuse to see, is that belief in Eckankar
          > > is the actual trap/test and a continuation
          > > of the Wheel of 84!
          > >
          > > Prometheus
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > etznab wrote:
          > >
          > > Was updating some files recently
          > > and came across an old link. I read
          > > this years ago, but today it has new
          > > meaning.
          > >
          > > Quoting:
          > >
          > > It has been my practice to listen to everybody, always. I desired to learn,
          > from
          > > the gardener, from the pariah, from the untouch able, from my neighbour,
          from
          > my
          > > friend, from everything that could teach, in order to become one with the
          > > Beloved. When I had listened to all, and gathered the Truth wher ever I
          found
          > > it, I was able to develop myself fully. Now you are waiting for the Truth to
          > > come - out of one person; you are waiting for that Truth to be developed, to
          > be
          > > forced upon you by authority, and you are worshipping that person instead of
          > the
          > > Truth. When Krishnamurti dies, which is inevitable, you will make a
          religion,
          > > you will set about forming rules in your minds, because the individual,
          > > Krishnamurti, has represented to you the Truth; so you will build a temple,
          > you
          > > will then begin to have ceremonies, to invent phrases.,dogmas, systems of
          > > beliefs, creeds, and to create philos ophies. If you build great foundations
          > > upon me, the individual, you will be caught in that house, in that temple,
          and
          > > so you will have to have another Teacher to come and extricate you from that
          > > temple, pull you out of that narrowness in order to liberate you; but the
          > human
          > > mind is such that you will build another temple round Him, and so it will go
          > on
          > > and on. But those who understand, who do not depend on authority, who hold
          all
          > > peoples in their hearts, will not build temples - they will really
          understand.
          > > [....]
          > >
          > > http://norea.net/krishnamurti/truth.htm
          > >
          > > Krishnamurti (IMO) was chosen (in his youth), groomed and propped up by the
          > > Theosophical Society to be some sort of "World Teacher". In the end, he
          > > apparently went his own way.
          > >
          > > "[....] His new direction reached a climax in 1929, when he rebuffed
          attempts
          > by
          > > Leadbeater and Besant to continue with the Order of the Star. Krishnamurti
          > > dissolved the Order during the annual Star Camp at Ommen, the Netherlands,
          on
          > 3
          > > August 1929[83] in front of Annie Besant, three thousand members, and a
          radio
          > > audience.[84] In the so-called Dissolution Speech, he stated that he made
          his
          > > decision after 'careful consideration' during the previous two years, ... .
          > > [....]"
          > >
          > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiddu_Krishnamurti#Break_with_the_past
          > >
          > > I thought some interesting things were mentioned in the first link about Who
          > > Brings the Truth? My impression was that Krishnamurti was breaking away from
          > > dogma built up around him by others and was asking people to find the truth
          > for
          > > themselves. Interesting that.
          > >
          > > Did Paul Twitchell, Darwin Gross or Harold Klemp do this for members and
          > > followers of Eckankar? Perhaps some of it in the wording of Eck teachings
          but,
          > > as the organization grew, so the "Mahanta" mythology also grew. Eventually
          > there
          > > would come a time (1980s) where people were asked (told?) to choose between
          > one
          > > person or another. Darwin or Harold, it seems. And this kind of thing is not
          > > unique to Eckankar.
          > > Other groups have fought over succession, or who was the rightful and
          > authentic
          > > "Teacher". I'm not only talking Shiite and Sunni.
          > >
          > > The symbol of "World Teacher" was something become popular during the 20th
          > > century (at least). The latter 1800s and early 1900s saw numbers of people
          who
          > > later contributed to "spiritual movements" in some way. Sant Mat and
          > Radhasoami
          > > evolved in parallel with other similar groups who looked to a form of
          > "Teacher".
          > > And though the titles appear to be different, the concept appears basically
          > the
          > > same. God's "so-called" representative on earth in the form of a single
          > person,
          > > guru, master, etc. Is this what the heart of the teachings held? Or
          something
          > > that so many people in a congregation created / made into a seemingly
          literal
          > > truth?
          > >
          > > I'm not sure Krishnamurti was describing himself as a "World Teacher".
          > > It sounded (to me) like he suggested "The Beloved" was in all people and
          > things.
          > > As a speaker, he reminded me about a number of other speakers that people
          had
          > > propped up as "this" or "that". And - much like them - Krishnamurti appeared
          > to
          > > say that "the truth was within".
          > >
          > > And so this is what it (Religion, New Age, etc.) appears to come down to, to
          > me.
          > > That the "Teacher" is defaulting to the "Student" for the ultimate truth.
          > >
          > > How ironic that people found all these teachings, and all these gurus, so in
          > the
          > > end they can be told NOT to follow them, but follow their own experience and
          > > inner guidance above all.
          > >
          > > Of course, it might help the followers if the teachers would admit to (and
          > > further clarify and correct) those elements of pseudo history / religion
          > > propagated by churches and groups. IMHO.
          > >
          > > Etznab
          > >
        • dianastanley43
          If women had always had the power that men have had, men would be calling for equal rights. Power is something people have a hard time letting go of. Men or
          Message 4 of 10 , Feb 3, 2011
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            If women had always had the power that men have had, men would be calling for equal rights. Power is something people have a hard time letting go of. Men or Women.
            Diana

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hello Diana and All,
            > One of the biggest lies, and
            > fraud, is to say that women
            > aren't equal to men. Eckankar
            > contradicts itself and has a
            > typical ekplanation as to why
            > women can't be the LEM while
            > being an EK Master like Kata Daki.
            > Twitchell's negative atom/battery
            > excuse is just more of the same
            > we see in all manmade/male run
            > religions.
            >
            > Supposedly, on the physical
            > plane, the negative atom thing
            > is the only reason why females
            > can't be the LEM. This mysterious
            > "fact" is what keeps women in
            > their place as servants to the
            > male LEM/Mahanta.
            >
            > It seems that every religion has
            > some sort of myth, dogma, law,
            > rule, excuse that has the same
            > effect... to keep women in their
            > place as second class citizens or
            > members.
            >
            > On TV recently there was a show
            > that shared things that were taken
            > out of the Bible. Apparently there
            > was a woman that came before Eve.
            > Her name was Lillith and she was
            > created by God the same as Adam.
            > She was Adam's equal and this caused
            > conflict. They were not to call God
            > by his real name but she did and was
            > taken up into heaven and didn't want
            > to return. Anyway there's more to the
            > story than that but apparently Adam
            > asked for a woman that would be
            > or lie beneath him. This is why Eve
            > was created out of Adam's rib. The
            > story about Lillith was taken out of
            > the Bible because they (the church
            > elders) didn't want women to think
            > they were the equals to men.
            >
            > BTW- Eckankar believes this Garden
            > of Eden Myth too. They say that the
            > "Polarians" were the first race but
            > Paul changed it up some and claims
            > "ADOM" was the first man and "EDE"
            > was the first woman. The inequality
            > remains the same.
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
            >
            > dianastanley wrote:
            > Very true. I am of the opinion now
            > that on a quantum level every atom
            > has couniousness and it the same
            > as every other atom. I am inclined
            > to beleive that every soul is the same
            > as every other soul. It is identifying
            > with the body we are in that makes
            > us feel speacial and different from
            > others. When in fact there is no difference.
            >
            > Diana
            >
            > prometheus_973@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hello Diana,
            > > IMO-It is true that we first look
            > > to our parents as authority figures
            > > and then to teachers and to the
            > > clergy, etc.. We are also taught to
            > > see others as authority figures
            > > such as the police or others in
            > > our social, religious, and political
            > > hierarchies.
            > >
            > > I'm not so sure about "peers"
            > > since we need to elevate people
            > > to a status higher than ourselves.
            > >
            > > In college we had professors upon
            > > pedestals, too, and then later when
            > > I got to know some of these PH.Ds
            > > and MDs on a personal level that
            > > was corrected. The same takes place
            > > within religion. Those deemed
            > > "closer to God" or more "spiritual"
            > > and knowledgable of the dogma
            > > are held in high esteem, until, if
            > > we're lucky we are able to see them
            > > for what they are. At one time I had
            > > certain ECKists upon pedestals and
            > > as I learned more and had more clarity
            > > of consciousness I saw through that
            > > mindset and the error in that belief.
            > >
            > > There are always "experts" out there
            > > and/or those for us to admire, but
            > > that's the problem. We can use what
            > > others give us but we have to be careful
            > > with placing them above us.
            > >
            > > In Eckankar I was given one piece of
            > > information, or a perspective, that
            > > prepared me to see more clearly when
            > > Ford came out with the truth about
            > > Twitchell and the others including
            > > Klemp. It was, "Soul equals Soul."
            > >
            > > Once we take everyone down off their
            > > pedestals that we've placed them upon,
            > > or they've placed themselves upon, then
            > > we can start seeing them as being "peer."
            > > But, this isn't what they want us to see,
            > > nor what we, ourselves, desire either!
            > >
            > > Sure, many people have special talents
            > > that either come naturally or with lots
            > > of effort, but it still doesn't mean that
            > > they are better than any of us. However,
            > > one's ego wants and needs them to be
            > > special and in control, plus, they like the
            > > attention. For some people, even negative
            > > attention is better than being ignored.
            > > This is why some children act up. The
            > > negative attention is better than none
            > > at all.
            > >
            > > Klemp likes attention but not the
            > > responsibilities he's created for himself.
            > > This is why he never takes responsibility
            > > on any level even though he is responsible
            > > for all decisions made at and coming from
            > > the ESC. Instead, Klemp hits the ball back
            > > into the court of the Initiates under him.
            > > It's always their fault and their responsibility
            > > and not his. HK's above responsibility and
            > > "is a law unto himself."
            > >
            > > But, if it wasn't for Darwin Gross Klemp
            > > would either be a 7th or 8th initiate and still
            > > be working at the ESC. He's nothing special.
            > > But, now, he always has to let EKists know
            > > who's in charge. He's always introduced, or
            > > mentioning that he's the (14th Initiate) Mahanta/
            > > LEM i.e. the ECK, the Godman. Then he says
            > > I'm not perfect or I'm just like you and you
            > > aren't to worship (me) the Mahanta. But,
            > > when one is encouraged to have complete
            > > reliance upon the Mahanta/God (Klemp) for
            > > all things and to stare at his picture or to
            > > dream about him, then, what does this really
            > > say? I don't see a "Soul=Soul" or "I'm not
            > > perfect" image being projected... just the
            > > opposite!
            > >
            > > Anyway, this is the "trap" AND the "test"
            > > that people go through. What we should
            > > be doing is sharing this admiration and
            > > high esteem with ourselves. Let's assume
            > > that Soul equals Soul. Therefore, as Soul,
            > > we can all share in the divine nature that
            > > other Souls project. But, what about the
            > > harm that Souls do to other Souls?
            > >
            > > Life is both a series of traps and tests.
            > > We try to do what's best, or we deem
            > > best, while limiting the negative effects
            > > of what both the traps and tests have
            > > upon us. Sometimes we create or cause
            > > our own traps and tests and sometimes
            > > others, or nature, does that for us. It's
            > > hard to say how much "karma" or divine
            > > nudges are involved with this experiment
            > > of life. It's a mystery that we have to seek
            > > to uncover for ourselves and with a little
            > > help from our friends.
            > >
            > > Prometheus
            > >
            > > dianastanley wrote:
            > >
            > > The first people we look to for answers
            > > is are parents. Then peers and teachers.
            > > Always thinking some one must have
            > > the answers to our questions. When
            > > we become interested in finding God
            > > we either follow are parents religion
            > > or begin a search.
            > >
            > > I don't know how many books I read,
            > > paths I followed until I discovered
            > > that if you are in your house you
            > > don't need a path to find it. The book
            > > Quantum Consciousness by Steven
            > > wolinsky started me on the journey
            > > back to myself. I can say from experience
            > > that following someone else is a lot
            > > easier plus you have someone to blame
            > > if it doesn't work out!!!!
            > >
            > > Diana
            > >
            > > prometheus wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Hello Etznab,
            > > > Upon thinking about it
            > > > I'd like to change a remark
            > > > I made. I said, "But, people
            > > > were never supposed to
            > > > follow another." When I
            > > > thought about this I saw
            > > > that it was far from accurate.
            > > >
            > > > We started out being followers
            > > > of stronger and more clever
            > > > leaders and even in nature
            > > > there are pecking orders. When
            > > > we look at societies and clubs
            > > > and organizations and political
            > > > parties, sports teams, religions,
            > > > etc. we can plainly see that humans
            > > > tend to like, follow, and hold in
            > > > higher esteem those stronger,
            > > > faster, more skilled, smarter,
            > > > knowledgable, or "spiritual"
            > > > than themselves. Most of our
            > > > opinions in these matters, of
            > > > course, are subjective. And,
            > > > they (we) tend to join groups
            > > > of like minded people in order
            > > > to feel good about ourselves.
            > > > After all, 'Misery loves company;
            > > > The more the merrier;' and, 'Might
            > > > makes right!'
            > > >
            > > > But, unlike religion and other
            > > > group endeavors, true "spirituality"
            > > > is not a team sport or group effort.
            > > > Eckists have been tricked into
            > > > thinking that it is.
            > > >
            > > > Prometheus
            > > >
            > > > prometheus wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Hello Etznab,
            > > >
            > > > I agree, religions were never
            > > > supposed to be. The spiritual
            > > > is individualistic, personal and
            > > > unique to each Soul.
            > > >
            > > > People tend to see their own
            > > > short comings and failures
            > > > while putting others upon
            > > > pedestals. They need to admire
            > > > and worship a leader due to
            > > > their own guilt and shame
            > > > and laziness. Doesn't it usually
            > > > takes less effort and thought
            > > > to be a follower? Plus, people
            > > > need hope when they experience
            > > > inequities in government and/
            > > > or in life.
            > > >
            > > > But, people were never
            > > > supposed to follow another.
            > > > They were to learn some
            > > > things from others but see
            > > > the lessons in their own lives.
            > > > They are supposed to see
            > > > and learn from their own
            > > > tests. However, there are
            > > > always those that take advantage
            > > > of the weak minded and of
            > > > opportunities to trick people.
            > > >
            > > > Most of these preachers, like
            > > > Klemp, try to rationalize, at
            > > > times, and claim they are doing
            > > > good. But they know the truth
            > > > behind the smoke and mirrors.
            > > > Klemp is a conman and not a
            > > > godman. And, at the same time,
            > > > he's making a lot of money and
            > > > will never share how much it
            > > > really is with his flock of sheep.
            > > >
            > > > Jesus, supposedly, said that the
            > > > kingdom of heaven is within...
            > > > and then they made another
            > > > religion out of his teachings
            > > > when he was merely sharing
            > > > the truth he learned for himself.
            > > >
            > > > Once religions get their hooks
            > > > into people it's for life. Look at
            > > > Eckankar. Supposedly at the 7th
            > > > initiation one is free to leave, but
            > > > when you read a bit further you
            > > > see that you can't because of the
            > > > fear of what could happen to you
            > > > or shouldn't because of more greatness
            > > > to come. It's that push/pull technique
            > > > that Twit shared in Letters to Gail 3.
            > > >
            > > > After awhile ECKists start believing
            > > > their own hype and the timid become
            > > > almost as arrogant and self absorbed
            > > > as the narcissists. All become even
            > > > more delusional as time goes by and
            > > > then they pass it on to the next generation.
            > > > What ECKists don't understand, and
            > > > refuse to see, is that belief in Eckankar
            > > > is the actual trap/test and a continuation
            > > > of the Wheel of 84!
            > > >
            > > > Prometheus
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > etznab wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Was updating some files recently
            > > > and came across an old link. I read
            > > > this years ago, but today it has new
            > > > meaning.
            > > >
            > > > Quoting:
            > > >
            > > > It has been my practice to listen to everybody, always. I desired to learn,
            > > from
            > > > the gardener, from the pariah, from the untouch able, from my neighbour,
            > from
            > > my
            > > > friend, from everything that could teach, in order to become one with the
            > > > Beloved. When I had listened to all, and gathered the Truth wher ever I
            > found
            > > > it, I was able to develop myself fully. Now you are waiting for the Truth to
            > > > come - out of one person; you are waiting for that Truth to be developed, to
            > > be
            > > > forced upon you by authority, and you are worshipping that person instead of
            > > the
            > > > Truth. When Krishnamurti dies, which is inevitable, you will make a
            > religion,
            > > > you will set about forming rules in your minds, because the individual,
            > > > Krishnamurti, has represented to you the Truth; so you will build a temple,
            > > you
            > > > will then begin to have ceremonies, to invent phrases.,dogmas, systems of
            > > > beliefs, creeds, and to create philos ophies. If you build great foundations
            > > > upon me, the individual, you will be caught in that house, in that temple,
            > and
            > > > so you will have to have another Teacher to come and extricate you from that
            > > > temple, pull you out of that narrowness in order to liberate you; but the
            > > human
            > > > mind is such that you will build another temple round Him, and so it will go
            > > on
            > > > and on. But those who understand, who do not depend on authority, who hold
            > all
            > > > peoples in their hearts, will not build temples - they will really
            > understand.
            > > > [....]
            > > >
            > > > http://norea.net/krishnamurti/truth.htm
            > > >
            > > > Krishnamurti (IMO) was chosen (in his youth), groomed and propped up by the
            > > > Theosophical Society to be some sort of "World Teacher". In the end, he
            > > > apparently went his own way.
            > > >
            > > > "[....] His new direction reached a climax in 1929, when he rebuffed
            > attempts
            > > by
            > > > Leadbeater and Besant to continue with the Order of the Star. Krishnamurti
            > > > dissolved the Order during the annual Star Camp at Ommen, the Netherlands,
            > on
            > > 3
            > > > August 1929[83] in front of Annie Besant, three thousand members, and a
            > radio
            > > > audience.[84] In the so-called Dissolution Speech, he stated that he made
            > his
            > > > decision after 'careful consideration' during the previous two years, ... .
            > > > [....]"
            > > >
            > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiddu_Krishnamurti#Break_with_the_past
            > > >
            > > > I thought some interesting things were mentioned in the first link about Who
            > > > Brings the Truth? My impression was that Krishnamurti was breaking away from
            > > > dogma built up around him by others and was asking people to find the truth
            > > for
            > > > themselves. Interesting that.
            > > >
            > > > Did Paul Twitchell, Darwin Gross or Harold Klemp do this for members and
            > > > followers of Eckankar? Perhaps some of it in the wording of Eck teachings
            > but,
            > > > as the organization grew, so the "Mahanta" mythology also grew. Eventually
            > > there
            > > > would come a time (1980s) where people were asked (told?) to choose between
            > > one
            > > > person or another. Darwin or Harold, it seems. And this kind of thing is not
            > > > unique to Eckankar.
            > > > Other groups have fought over succession, or who was the rightful and
            > > authentic
            > > > "Teacher". I'm not only talking Shiite and Sunni.
            > > >
            > > > The symbol of "World Teacher" was something become popular during the 20th
            > > > century (at least). The latter 1800s and early 1900s saw numbers of people
            > who
            > > > later contributed to "spiritual movements" in some way. Sant Mat and
            > > Radhasoami
            > > > evolved in parallel with other similar groups who looked to a form of
            > > "Teacher".
            > > > And though the titles appear to be different, the concept appears basically
            > > the
            > > > same. God's "so-called" representative on earth in the form of a single
            > > person,
            > > > guru, master, etc. Is this what the heart of the teachings held? Or
            > something
            > > > that so many people in a congregation created / made into a seemingly
            > literal
            > > > truth?
            > > >
            > > > I'm not sure Krishnamurti was describing himself as a "World Teacher".
            > > > It sounded (to me) like he suggested "The Beloved" was in all people and
            > > things.
            > > > As a speaker, he reminded me about a number of other speakers that people
            > had
            > > > propped up as "this" or "that". And - much like them - Krishnamurti appeared
            > > to
            > > > say that "the truth was within".
            > > >
            > > > And so this is what it (Religion, New Age, etc.) appears to come down to, to
            > > me.
            > > > That the "Teacher" is defaulting to the "Student" for the ultimate truth.
            > > >
            > > > How ironic that people found all these teachings, and all these gurus, so in
            > > the
            > > > end they can be told NOT to follow them, but follow their own experience and
            > > > inner guidance above all.
            > > >
            > > > Of course, it might help the followers if the teachers would admit to (and
            > > > further clarify and correct) those elements of pseudo history / religion
            > > > propagated by churches and groups. IMHO.
            > > >
            > > > Etznab
            > > >
            >
          • prometheus_973
            Hello Diana, Anytime one group or one person has all the power that always leads to more corruption and less freedom for all. Klemp has corrupted truth and has
            Message 5 of 10 , Feb 6, 2011
            • 0 Attachment
              Hello Diana,
              Anytime one group or one person
              has all the power that always leads
              to more corruption and less freedom
              for all. Klemp has corrupted truth
              and has lessened the freedoms of
              those followers who disagree with
              his policies and who question the
              ECK Dogma. Where's Rebazar? Where's
              Spiritual Liberation in/for This Lifetime?
              Where's Eckankar's financial statement
              to show where ALL the money goes?

              Prometheus


              dianastanley43@...> wrote:
              >
              > If women had always had the power that men have had, men would be calling for equal rights. Power is something people have a hard time letting go of. Men or Women.
              > Diana
              >
              prometheus_973@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hello Diana and All,
              > > One of the biggest lies, and
              > > fraud, is to say that women
              > > aren't equal to men. Eckankar
              > > contradicts itself and has a
              > > typical ekplanation as to why
              > > women can't be the LEM while
              > > being an EK Master like Kata Daki.
              > > Twitchell's negative atom/battery
              > > excuse is just more of the same
              > > we see in all manmade/male run
              > > religions.
              > >
              > > Supposedly, on the physical
              > > plane, the negative atom thing
              > > is the only reason why females
              > > can't be the LEM. This mysterious
              > > "fact" is what keeps women in
              > > their place as servants to the
              > > male LEM/Mahanta.
              > >
              > > It seems that every religion has
              > > some sort of myth, dogma, law,
              > > rule, excuse that has the same
              > > effect... to keep women in their
              > > place as second class citizens or
              > > members.
              > >
              > > On TV recently there was a show
              > > that shared things that were taken
              > > out of the Bible. Apparently there
              > > was a woman that came before Eve.
              > > Her name was Lillith and she was
              > > created by God the same as Adam.
              > > She was Adam's equal and this caused
              > > conflict. They were not to call God
              > > by his real name but she did and was
              > > taken up into heaven and didn't want
              > > to return. Anyway there's more to the
              > > story than that but apparently Adam
              > > asked for a woman that would be
              > > or lie beneath him. This is why Eve
              > > was created out of Adam's rib. The
              > > story about Lillith was taken out of
              > > the Bible because they (the church
              > > elders) didn't want women to think
              > > they were the equals to men.
              > >
              > > BTW- Eckankar believes this Garden
              > > of Eden Myth too. They say that the
              > > "Polarians" were the first race but
              > > Paul changed it up some and claims
              > > "ADOM" was the first man and "EDE"
              > > was the first woman. The inequality
              > > remains the same.
              > >
              > > Prometheus
              > >
              > >
              > > dianastanley wrote:
              > > Very true. I am of the opinion now
              > > that on a quantum level every atom
              > > has couniousness and it the same
              > > as every other atom. I am inclined
              > > to beleive that every soul is the same
              > > as every other soul. It is identifying
              > > with the body we are in that makes
              > > us feel speacial and different from
              > > others. When in fact there is no difference.
              > >
              > > Diana
              > >
              > > prometheus_973@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Hello Diana,
              > > > IMO-It is true that we first look
              > > > to our parents as authority figures
              > > > and then to teachers and to the
              > > > clergy, etc.. We are also taught to
              > > > see others as authority figures
              > > > such as the police or others in
              > > > our social, religious, and political
              > > > hierarchies.
              > > >
              > > > I'm not so sure about "peers"
              > > > since we need to elevate people
              > > > to a status higher than ourselves.
              > > >
              > > > In college we had professors upon
              > > > pedestals, too, and then later when
              > > > I got to know some of these PH.Ds
              > > > and MDs on a personal level that
              > > > was corrected. The same takes place
              > > > within religion. Those deemed
              > > > "closer to God" or more "spiritual"
              > > > and knowledgable of the dogma
              > > > are held in high esteem, until, if
              > > > we're lucky we are able to see them
              > > > for what they are. At one time I had
              > > > certain ECKists upon pedestals and
              > > > as I learned more and had more clarity
              > > > of consciousness I saw through that
              > > > mindset and the error in that belief.
              > > >
              > > > There are always "experts" out there
              > > > and/or those for us to admire, but
              > > > that's the problem. We can use what
              > > > others give us but we have to be careful
              > > > with placing them above us.
              > > >
              > > > In Eckankar I was given one piece of
              > > > information, or a perspective, that
              > > > prepared me to see more clearly when
              > > > Ford came out with the truth about
              > > > Twitchell and the others including
              > > > Klemp. It was, "Soul equals Soul."
              > > >
              > > > Once we take everyone down off their
              > > > pedestals that we've placed them upon,
              > > > or they've placed themselves upon, then
              > > > we can start seeing them as being "peer."
              > > > But, this isn't what they want us to see,
              > > > nor what we, ourselves, desire either!
              > > >
              > > > Sure, many people have special talents
              > > > that either come naturally or with lots
              > > > of effort, but it still doesn't mean that
              > > > they are better than any of us. However,
              > > > one's ego wants and needs them to be
              > > > special and in control, plus, they like the
              > > > attention. For some people, even negative
              > > > attention is better than being ignored.
              > > > This is why some children act up. The
              > > > negative attention is better than none
              > > > at all.
              > > >
              > > > Klemp likes attention but not the
              > > > responsibilities he's created for himself.
              > > > This is why he never takes responsibility
              > > > on any level even though he is responsible
              > > > for all decisions made at and coming from
              > > > the ESC. Instead, Klemp hits the ball back
              > > > into the court of the Initiates under him.
              > > > It's always their fault and their responsibility
              > > > and not his. HK's above responsibility and
              > > > "is a law unto himself."
              > > >
              > > > But, if it wasn't for Darwin Gross Klemp
              > > > would either be a 7th or 8th initiate and still
              > > > be working at the ESC. He's nothing special.
              > > > But, now, he always has to let EKists know
              > > > who's in charge. He's always introduced, or
              > > > mentioning that he's the (14th Initiate) Mahanta/
              > > > LEM i.e. the ECK, the Godman. Then he says
              > > > I'm not perfect or I'm just like you and you
              > > > aren't to worship (me) the Mahanta. But,
              > > > when one is encouraged to have complete
              > > > reliance upon the Mahanta/God (Klemp) for
              > > > all things and to stare at his picture or to
              > > > dream about him, then, what does this really
              > > > say? I don't see a "Soul=Soul" or "I'm not
              > > > perfect" image being projected... just the
              > > > opposite!
              > > >
              > > > Anyway, this is the "trap" AND the "test"
              > > > that people go through. What we should
              > > > be doing is sharing this admiration and
              > > > high esteem with ourselves. Let's assume
              > > > that Soul equals Soul. Therefore, as Soul,
              > > > we can all share in the divine nature that
              > > > other Souls project. But, what about the
              > > > harm that Souls do to other Souls?
              > > >
              > > > Life is both a series of traps and tests.
              > > > We try to do what's best, or we deem
              > > > best, while limiting the negative effects
              > > > of what both the traps and tests have
              > > > upon us. Sometimes we create or cause
              > > > our own traps and tests and sometimes
              > > > others, or nature, does that for us. It's
              > > > hard to say how much "karma" or divine
              > > > nudges are involved with this experiment
              > > > of life. It's a mystery that we have to seek
              > > > to uncover for ourselves and with a little
              > > > help from our friends.
              > > >
              > > > Prometheus
              > > >
              > > > dianastanley wrote:
              > > >
              > > > The first people we look to for answers
              > > > is are parents. Then peers and teachers.
              > > > Always thinking some one must have
              > > > the answers to our questions. When
              > > > we become interested in finding God
              > > > we either follow are parents religion
              > > > or begin a search.
              > > >
              > > > I don't know how many books I read,
              > > > paths I followed until I discovered
              > > > that if you are in your house you
              > > > don't need a path to find it. The book
              > > > Quantum Consciousness by Steven
              > > > wolinsky started me on the journey
              > > > back to myself. I can say from experience
              > > > that following someone else is a lot
              > > > easier plus you have someone to blame
              > > > if it doesn't work out!!!!
              > > >
              > > > Diana
              > > >
              > > > prometheus wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > Hello Etznab,
              > > > > Upon thinking about it
              > > > > I'd like to change a remark
              > > > > I made. I said, "But, people
              > > > > were never supposed to
              > > > > follow another." When I
              > > > > thought about this I saw
              > > > > that it was far from accurate.
              > > > >
              > > > > We started out being followers
              > > > > of stronger and more clever
              > > > > leaders and even in nature
              > > > > there are pecking orders. When
              > > > > we look at societies and clubs
              > > > > and organizations and political
              > > > > parties, sports teams, religions,
              > > > > etc. we can plainly see that humans
              > > > > tend to like, follow, and hold in
              > > > > higher esteem those stronger,
              > > > > faster, more skilled, smarter,
              > > > > knowledgable, or "spiritual"
              > > > > than themselves. Most of our
              > > > > opinions in these matters, of
              > > > > course, are subjective. And,
              > > > > they (we) tend to join groups
              > > > > of like minded people in order
              > > > > to feel good about ourselves.
              > > > > After all, 'Misery loves company;
              > > > > The more the merrier;' and, 'Might
              > > > > makes right!'
              > > > >
              > > > > But, unlike religion and other
              > > > > group endeavors, true "spirituality"
              > > > > is not a team sport or group effort.
              > > > > Eckists have been tricked into
              > > > > thinking that it is.
              > > > >
              > > > > Prometheus
              > > > >
              > > > > prometheus wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > Hello Etznab,
              > > > >
              > > > > I agree, religions were never
              > > > > supposed to be. The spiritual
              > > > > is individualistic, personal and
              > > > > unique to each Soul.
              > > > >
              > > > > People tend to see their own
              > > > > short comings and failures
              > > > > while putting others upon
              > > > > pedestals. They need to admire
              > > > > and worship a leader due to
              > > > > their own guilt and shame
              > > > > and laziness. Doesn't it usually
              > > > > takes less effort and thought
              > > > > to be a follower? Plus, people
              > > > > need hope when they experience
              > > > > inequities in government and/
              > > > > or in life.
              > > > >
              > > > > But, people were never
              > > > > supposed to follow another.
              > > > > They were to learn some
              > > > > things from others but see
              > > > > the lessons in their own lives.
              > > > > They are supposed to see
              > > > > and learn from their own
              > > > > tests. However, there are
              > > > > always those that take advantage
              > > > > of the weak minded and of
              > > > > opportunities to trick people.
              > > > >
              > > > > Most of these preachers, like
              > > > > Klemp, try to rationalize, at
              > > > > times, and claim they are doing
              > > > > good. But they know the truth
              > > > > behind the smoke and mirrors.
              > > > > Klemp is a conman and not a
              > > > > godman. And, at the same time,
              > > > > he's making a lot of money and
              > > > > will never share how much it
              > > > > really is with his flock of sheep.
              > > > >
              > > > > Jesus, supposedly, said that the
              > > > > kingdom of heaven is within...
              > > > > and then they made another
              > > > > religion out of his teachings
              > > > > when he was merely sharing
              > > > > the truth he learned for himself.
              > > > >
              > > > > Once religions get their hooks
              > > > > into people it's for life. Look at
              > > > > Eckankar. Supposedly at the 7th
              > > > > initiation one is free to leave, but
              > > > > when you read a bit further you
              > > > > see that you can't because of the
              > > > > fear of what could happen to you
              > > > > or shouldn't because of more greatness
              > > > > to come. It's that push/pull technique
              > > > > that Twit shared in Letters to Gail 3.
              > > > >
              > > > > After awhile ECKists start believing
              > > > > their own hype and the timid become
              > > > > almost as arrogant and self absorbed
              > > > > as the narcissists. All become even
              > > > > more delusional as time goes by and
              > > > > then they pass it on to the next generation.
              > > > > What ECKists don't understand, and
              > > > > refuse to see, is that belief in Eckankar
              > > > > is the actual trap/test and a continuation
              > > > > of the Wheel of 84!
              > > > >
              > > > > Prometheus
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > etznab wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > Was updating some files recently
              > > > > and came across an old link. I read
              > > > > this years ago, but today it has new
              > > > > meaning.
              > > > >
              > > > > Quoting:
              > > > >
              > > > > It has been my practice to listen to everybody, always. I desired to learn,
              > > > from
              > > > > the gardener, from the pariah, from the untouch able, from my neighbour,
              > > from
              > > > my
              > > > > friend, from everything that could teach, in order to become one with the
              > > > > Beloved. When I had listened to all, and gathered the Truth wher ever I
              > > found
              > > > > it, I was able to develop myself fully. Now you are waiting for the Truth to
              > > > > come - out of one person; you are waiting for that Truth to be developed, to
              > > > be
              > > > > forced upon you by authority, and you are worshipping that person instead of
              > > > the
              > > > > Truth. When Krishnamurti dies, which is inevitable, you will make a
              > > religion,
              > > > > you will set about forming rules in your minds, because the individual,
              > > > > Krishnamurti, has represented to you the Truth; so you will build a temple,
              > > > you
              > > > > will then begin to have ceremonies, to invent phrases.,dogmas, systems of
              > > > > beliefs, creeds, and to create philos ophies. If you build great foundations
              > > > > upon me, the individual, you will be caught in that house, in that temple,
              > > and
              > > > > so you will have to have another Teacher to come and extricate you from that
              > > > > temple, pull you out of that narrowness in order to liberate you; but the
              > > > human
              > > > > mind is such that you will build another temple round Him, and so it will go
              > > > on
              > > > > and on. But those who understand, who do not depend on authority, who hold
              > > all
              > > > > peoples in their hearts, will not build temples - they will really
              > > understand.
              > > > > [....]
              > > > >
              > > > > http://norea.net/krishnamurti/truth.htm
              > > > >
              > > > > Krishnamurti (IMO) was chosen (in his youth), groomed and propped up by the
              > > > > Theosophical Society to be some sort of "World Teacher". In the end, he
              > > > > apparently went his own way.
              > > > >
              > > > > "[....] His new direction reached a climax in 1929, when he rebuffed
              > > attempts
              > > > by
              > > > > Leadbeater and Besant to continue with the Order of the Star. Krishnamurti
              > > > > dissolved the Order during the annual Star Camp at Ommen, the Netherlands,
              > > on
              > > > 3
              > > > > August 1929[83] in front of Annie Besant, three thousand members, and a
              > > radio
              > > > > audience.[84] In the so-called Dissolution Speech, he stated that he made
              > > his
              > > > > decision after 'careful consideration' during the previous two years, ... .
              > > > > [....]"
              > > > >
              > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiddu_Krishnamurti#Break_with_the_past
              > > > >
              > > > > I thought some interesting things were mentioned in the first link about Who
              > > > > Brings the Truth? My impression was that Krishnamurti was breaking away from
              > > > > dogma built up around him by others and was asking people to find the truth
              > > > for
              > > > > themselves. Interesting that.
              > > > >
              > > > > Did Paul Twitchell, Darwin Gross or Harold Klemp do this for members and
              > > > > followers of Eckankar? Perhaps some of it in the wording of Eck teachings
              > > but,
              > > > > as the organization grew, so the "Mahanta" mythology also grew. Eventually
              > > > there
              > > > > would come a time (1980s) where people were asked (told?) to choose between
              > > > one
              > > > > person or another. Darwin or Harold, it seems. And this kind of thing is not
              > > > > unique to Eckankar.
              > > > > Other groups have fought over succession, or who was the rightful and
              > > > authentic
              > > > > "Teacher". I'm not only talking Shiite and Sunni.
              > > > >
              > > > > The symbol of "World Teacher" was something become popular during the 20th
              > > > > century (at least). The latter 1800s and early 1900s saw numbers of people
              > > who
              > > > > later contributed to "spiritual movements" in some way. Sant Mat and
              > > > Radhasoami
              > > > > evolved in parallel with other similar groups who looked to a form of
              > > > "Teacher".
              > > > > And though the titles appear to be different, the concept appears basically
              > > > the
              > > > > same. God's "so-called" representative on earth in the form of a single
              > > > person,
              > > > > guru, master, etc. Is this what the heart of the teachings held? Or
              > > something
              > > > > that so many people in a congregation created / made into a seemingly
              > > literal
              > > > > truth?
              > > > >
              > > > > I'm not sure Krishnamurti was describing himself as a "World Teacher".
              > > > > It sounded (to me) like he suggested "The Beloved" was in all people and
              > > > things.
              > > > > As a speaker, he reminded me about a number of other speakers that people
              > > had
              > > > > propped up as "this" or "that". And - much like them - Krishnamurti appeared
              > > > to
              > > > > say that "the truth was within".
              > > > >
              > > > > And so this is what it (Religion, New Age, etc.) appears to come down to, to
              > > > me.
              > > > > That the "Teacher" is defaulting to the "Student" for the ultimate truth.
              > > > >
              > > > > How ironic that people found all these teachings, and all these gurus, so in
              > > > the
              > > > > end they can be told NOT to follow them, but follow their own experience and
              > > > > inner guidance above all.
              > > > >
              > > > > Of course, it might help the followers if the teachers would admit to (and
              > > > > further clarify and correct) those elements of pseudo history / religion
              > > > > propagated by churches and groups. IMHO.
              > > > >
              > > > > Etznab
              > > > >
              > >
              >
            • dianastanley43
              All religions or paths have the same dynamics. One person who has the anwser to how to find God or at least Please him. They are all based on reward or
              Message 6 of 10 , Feb 7, 2011
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                All religions or paths have the same dynamics. One person who has the anwser to how to find God or at least Please him. They are all based on reward or punishment. If not in this life then the next.
                What made me so angry and dissapointed was I thought Eckankar was different. A lot older and wiser I now know that no one has the answer to anything. There is no answer because there can be no question. Everything is everything. That which is Is. Iam That.
                Diana--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hello Diana,
                > Anytime one group or one person
                > has all the power that always leads
                > to more corruption and less freedom
                > for all. Klemp has corrupted truth
                > and has lessened the freedoms of
                > those followers who disagree with
                > his policies and who question the
                > ECK Dogma. Where's Rebazar? Where's
                > Spiritual Liberation in/for This Lifetime?
                > Where's Eckankar's financial statement
                > to show where ALL the money goes?
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
                >
                > dianastanley43@> wrote:
                > >
                > > If women had always had the power that men have had, men would be calling for equal rights. Power is something people have a hard time letting go of. Men or Women.
                > > Diana
                > >
                > prometheus_973@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Hello Diana and All,
                > > > One of the biggest lies, and
                > > > fraud, is to say that women
                > > > aren't equal to men. Eckankar
                > > > contradicts itself and has a
                > > > typical ekplanation as to why
                > > > women can't be the LEM while
                > > > being an EK Master like Kata Daki.
                > > > Twitchell's negative atom/battery
                > > > excuse is just more of the same
                > > > we see in all manmade/male run
                > > > religions.
                > > >
                > > > Supposedly, on the physical
                > > > plane, the negative atom thing
                > > > is the only reason why females
                > > > can't be the LEM. This mysterious
                > > > "fact" is what keeps women in
                > > > their place as servants to the
                > > > male LEM/Mahanta.
                > > >
                > > > It seems that every religion has
                > > > some sort of myth, dogma, law,
                > > > rule, excuse that has the same
                > > > effect... to keep women in their
                > > > place as second class citizens or
                > > > members.
                > > >
                > > > On TV recently there was a show
                > > > that shared things that were taken
                > > > out of the Bible. Apparently there
                > > > was a woman that came before Eve.
                > > > Her name was Lillith and she was
                > > > created by God the same as Adam.
                > > > She was Adam's equal and this caused
                > > > conflict. They were not to call God
                > > > by his real name but she did and was
                > > > taken up into heaven and didn't want
                > > > to return. Anyway there's more to the
                > > > story than that but apparently Adam
                > > > asked for a woman that would be
                > > > or lie beneath him. This is why Eve
                > > > was created out of Adam's rib. The
                > > > story about Lillith was taken out of
                > > > the Bible because they (the church
                > > > elders) didn't want women to think
                > > > they were the equals to men.
                > > >
                > > > BTW- Eckankar believes this Garden
                > > > of Eden Myth too. They say that the
                > > > "Polarians" were the first race but
                > > > Paul changed it up some and claims
                > > > "ADOM" was the first man and "EDE"
                > > > was the first woman. The inequality
                > > > remains the same.
                > > >
                > > > Prometheus
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > dianastanley wrote:
                > > > Very true. I am of the opinion now
                > > > that on a quantum level every atom
                > > > has couniousness and it the same
                > > > as every other atom. I am inclined
                > > > to beleive that every soul is the same
                > > > as every other soul. It is identifying
                > > > with the body we are in that makes
                > > > us feel speacial and different from
                > > > others. When in fact there is no difference.
                > > >
                > > > Diana
                > > >
                > > > prometheus_973@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > Hello Diana,
                > > > > IMO-It is true that we first look
                > > > > to our parents as authority figures
                > > > > and then to teachers and to the
                > > > > clergy, etc.. We are also taught to
                > > > > see others as authority figures
                > > > > such as the police or others in
                > > > > our social, religious, and political
                > > > > hierarchies.
                > > > >
                > > > > I'm not so sure about "peers"
                > > > > since we need to elevate people
                > > > > to a status higher than ourselves.
                > > > >
                > > > > In college we had professors upon
                > > > > pedestals, too, and then later when
                > > > > I got to know some of these PH.Ds
                > > > > and MDs on a personal level that
                > > > > was corrected. The same takes place
                > > > > within religion. Those deemed
                > > > > "closer to God" or more "spiritual"
                > > > > and knowledgable of the dogma
                > > > > are held in high esteem, until, if
                > > > > we're lucky we are able to see them
                > > > > for what they are. At one time I had
                > > > > certain ECKists upon pedestals and
                > > > > as I learned more and had more clarity
                > > > > of consciousness I saw through that
                > > > > mindset and the error in that belief.
                > > > >
                > > > > There are always "experts" out there
                > > > > and/or those for us to admire, but
                > > > > that's the problem. We can use what
                > > > > others give us but we have to be careful
                > > > > with placing them above us.
                > > > >
                > > > > In Eckankar I was given one piece of
                > > > > information, or a perspective, that
                > > > > prepared me to see more clearly when
                > > > > Ford came out with the truth about
                > > > > Twitchell and the others including
                > > > > Klemp. It was, "Soul equals Soul."
                > > > >
                > > > > Once we take everyone down off their
                > > > > pedestals that we've placed them upon,
                > > > > or they've placed themselves upon, then
                > > > > we can start seeing them as being "peer."
                > > > > But, this isn't what they want us to see,
                > > > > nor what we, ourselves, desire either!
                > > > >
                > > > > Sure, many people have special talents
                > > > > that either come naturally or with lots
                > > > > of effort, but it still doesn't mean that
                > > > > they are better than any of us. However,
                > > > > one's ego wants and needs them to be
                > > > > special and in control, plus, they like the
                > > > > attention. For some people, even negative
                > > > > attention is better than being ignored.
                > > > > This is why some children act up. The
                > > > > negative attention is better than none
                > > > > at all.
                > > > >
                > > > > Klemp likes attention but not the
                > > > > responsibilities he's created for himself.
                > > > > This is why he never takes responsibility
                > > > > on any level even though he is responsible
                > > > > for all decisions made at and coming from
                > > > > the ESC. Instead, Klemp hits the ball back
                > > > > into the court of the Initiates under him.
                > > > > It's always their fault and their responsibility
                > > > > and not his. HK's above responsibility and
                > > > > "is a law unto himself."
                > > > >
                > > > > But, if it wasn't for Darwin Gross Klemp
                > > > > would either be a 7th or 8th initiate and still
                > > > > be working at the ESC. He's nothing special.
                > > > > But, now, he always has to let EKists know
                > > > > who's in charge. He's always introduced, or
                > > > > mentioning that he's the (14th Initiate) Mahanta/
                > > > > LEM i.e. the ECK, the Godman. Then he says
                > > > > I'm not perfect or I'm just like you and you
                > > > > aren't to worship (me) the Mahanta. But,
                > > > > when one is encouraged to have complete
                > > > > reliance upon the Mahanta/God (Klemp) for
                > > > > all things and to stare at his picture or to
                > > > > dream about him, then, what does this really
                > > > > say? I don't see a "Soul=Soul" or "I'm not
                > > > > perfect" image being projected... just the
                > > > > opposite!
                > > > >
                > > > > Anyway, this is the "trap" AND the "test"
                > > > > that people go through. What we should
                > > > > be doing is sharing this admiration and
                > > > > high esteem with ourselves. Let's assume
                > > > > that Soul equals Soul. Therefore, as Soul,
                > > > > we can all share in the divine nature that
                > > > > other Souls project. But, what about the
                > > > > harm that Souls do to other Souls?
                > > > >
                > > > > Life is both a series of traps and tests.
                > > > > We try to do what's best, or we deem
                > > > > best, while limiting the negative effects
                > > > > of what both the traps and tests have
                > > > > upon us. Sometimes we create or cause
                > > > > our own traps and tests and sometimes
                > > > > others, or nature, does that for us. It's
                > > > > hard to say how much "karma" or divine
                > > > > nudges are involved with this experiment
                > > > > of life. It's a mystery that we have to seek
                > > > > to uncover for ourselves and with a little
                > > > > help from our friends.
                > > > >
                > > > > Prometheus
                > > > >
                > > > > dianastanley wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > The first people we look to for answers
                > > > > is are parents. Then peers and teachers.
                > > > > Always thinking some one must have
                > > > > the answers to our questions. When
                > > > > we become interested in finding God
                > > > > we either follow are parents religion
                > > > > or begin a search.
                > > > >
                > > > > I don't know how many books I read,
                > > > > paths I followed until I discovered
                > > > > that if you are in your house you
                > > > > don't need a path to find it. The book
                > > > > Quantum Consciousness by Steven
                > > > > wolinsky started me on the journey
                > > > > back to myself. I can say from experience
                > > > > that following someone else is a lot
                > > > > easier plus you have someone to blame
                > > > > if it doesn't work out!!!!
                > > > >
                > > > > Diana
                > > > >
                > > > > prometheus wrote:
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Hello Etznab,
                > > > > > Upon thinking about it
                > > > > > I'd like to change a remark
                > > > > > I made. I said, "But, people
                > > > > > were never supposed to
                > > > > > follow another." When I
                > > > > > thought about this I saw
                > > > > > that it was far from accurate.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > We started out being followers
                > > > > > of stronger and more clever
                > > > > > leaders and even in nature
                > > > > > there are pecking orders. When
                > > > > > we look at societies and clubs
                > > > > > and organizations and political
                > > > > > parties, sports teams, religions,
                > > > > > etc. we can plainly see that humans
                > > > > > tend to like, follow, and hold in
                > > > > > higher esteem those stronger,
                > > > > > faster, more skilled, smarter,
                > > > > > knowledgable, or "spiritual"
                > > > > > than themselves. Most of our
                > > > > > opinions in these matters, of
                > > > > > course, are subjective. And,
                > > > > > they (we) tend to join groups
                > > > > > of like minded people in order
                > > > > > to feel good about ourselves.
                > > > > > After all, 'Misery loves company;
                > > > > > The more the merrier;' and, 'Might
                > > > > > makes right!'
                > > > > >
                > > > > > But, unlike religion and other
                > > > > > group endeavors, true "spirituality"
                > > > > > is not a team sport or group effort.
                > > > > > Eckists have been tricked into
                > > > > > thinking that it is.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Prometheus
                > > > > >
                > > > > > prometheus wrote:
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Hello Etznab,
                > > > > >
                > > > > > I agree, religions were never
                > > > > > supposed to be. The spiritual
                > > > > > is individualistic, personal and
                > > > > > unique to each Soul.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > People tend to see their own
                > > > > > short comings and failures
                > > > > > while putting others upon
                > > > > > pedestals. They need to admire
                > > > > > and worship a leader due to
                > > > > > their own guilt and shame
                > > > > > and laziness. Doesn't it usually
                > > > > > takes less effort and thought
                > > > > > to be a follower? Plus, people
                > > > > > need hope when they experience
                > > > > > inequities in government and/
                > > > > > or in life.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > But, people were never
                > > > > > supposed to follow another.
                > > > > > They were to learn some
                > > > > > things from others but see
                > > > > > the lessons in their own lives.
                > > > > > They are supposed to see
                > > > > > and learn from their own
                > > > > > tests. However, there are
                > > > > > always those that take advantage
                > > > > > of the weak minded and of
                > > > > > opportunities to trick people.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Most of these preachers, like
                > > > > > Klemp, try to rationalize, at
                > > > > > times, and claim they are doing
                > > > > > good. But they know the truth
                > > > > > behind the smoke and mirrors.
                > > > > > Klemp is a conman and not a
                > > > > > godman. And, at the same time,
                > > > > > he's making a lot of money and
                > > > > > will never share how much it
                > > > > > really is with his flock of sheep.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Jesus, supposedly, said that the
                > > > > > kingdom of heaven is within...
                > > > > > and then they made another
                > > > > > religion out of his teachings
                > > > > > when he was merely sharing
                > > > > > the truth he learned for himself.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Once religions get their hooks
                > > > > > into people it's for life. Look at
                > > > > > Eckankar. Supposedly at the 7th
                > > > > > initiation one is free to leave, but
                > > > > > when you read a bit further you
                > > > > > see that you can't because of the
                > > > > > fear of what could happen to you
                > > > > > or shouldn't because of more greatness
                > > > > > to come. It's that push/pull technique
                > > > > > that Twit shared in Letters to Gail 3.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > After awhile ECKists start believing
                > > > > > their own hype and the timid become
                > > > > > almost as arrogant and self absorbed
                > > > > > as the narcissists. All become even
                > > > > > more delusional as time goes by and
                > > > > > then they pass it on to the next generation.
                > > > > > What ECKists don't understand, and
                > > > > > refuse to see, is that belief in Eckankar
                > > > > > is the actual trap/test and a continuation
                > > > > > of the Wheel of 84!
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Prometheus
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > etznab wrote:
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Was updating some files recently
                > > > > > and came across an old link. I read
                > > > > > this years ago, but today it has new
                > > > > > meaning.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Quoting:
                > > > > >
                > > > > > It has been my practice to listen to everybody, always. I desired to learn,
                > > > > from
                > > > > > the gardener, from the pariah, from the untouch able, from my neighbour,
                > > > from
                > > > > my
                > > > > > friend, from everything that could teach, in order to become one with the
                > > > > > Beloved. When I had listened to all, and gathered the Truth wher ever I
                > > > found
                > > > > > it, I was able to develop myself fully. Now you are waiting for the Truth to
                > > > > > come - out of one person; you are waiting for that Truth to be developed, to
                > > > > be
                > > > > > forced upon you by authority, and you are worshipping that person instead of
                > > > > the
                > > > > > Truth. When Krishnamurti dies, which is inevitable, you will make a
                > > > religion,
                > > > > > you will set about forming rules in your minds, because the individual,
                > > > > > Krishnamurti, has represented to you the Truth; so you will build a temple,
                > > > > you
                > > > > > will then begin to have ceremonies, to invent phrases.,dogmas, systems of
                > > > > > beliefs, creeds, and to create philos ophies. If you build great foundations
                > > > > > upon me, the individual, you will be caught in that house, in that temple,
                > > > and
                > > > > > so you will have to have another Teacher to come and extricate you from that
                > > > > > temple, pull you out of that narrowness in order to liberate you; but the
                > > > > human
                > > > > > mind is such that you will build another temple round Him, and so it will go
                > > > > on
                > > > > > and on. But those who understand, who do not depend on authority, who hold
                > > > all
                > > > > > peoples in their hearts, will not build temples - they will really
                > > > understand.
                > > > > > [....]
                > > > > >
                > > > > > http://norea.net/krishnamurti/truth.htm
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Krishnamurti (IMO) was chosen (in his youth), groomed and propped up by the
                > > > > > Theosophical Society to be some sort of "World Teacher". In the end, he
                > > > > > apparently went his own way.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > "[....] His new direction reached a climax in 1929, when he rebuffed
                > > > attempts
                > > > > by
                > > > > > Leadbeater and Besant to continue with the Order of the Star. Krishnamurti
                > > > > > dissolved the Order during the annual Star Camp at Ommen, the Netherlands,
                > > > on
                > > > > 3
                > > > > > August 1929[83] in front of Annie Besant, three thousand members, and a
                > > > radio
                > > > > > audience.[84] In the so-called Dissolution Speech, he stated that he made
                > > > his
                > > > > > decision after 'careful consideration' during the previous two years, ... .
                > > > > > [....]"
                > > > > >
                > > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiddu_Krishnamurti#Break_with_the_past
                > > > > >
                > > > > > I thought some interesting things were mentioned in the first link about Who
                > > > > > Brings the Truth? My impression was that Krishnamurti was breaking away from
                > > > > > dogma built up around him by others and was asking people to find the truth
                > > > > for
                > > > > > themselves. Interesting that.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Did Paul Twitchell, Darwin Gross or Harold Klemp do this for members and
                > > > > > followers of Eckankar? Perhaps some of it in the wording of Eck teachings
                > > > but,
                > > > > > as the organization grew, so the "Mahanta" mythology also grew. Eventually
                > > > > there
                > > > > > would come a time (1980s) where people were asked (told?) to choose between
                > > > > one
                > > > > > person or another. Darwin or Harold, it seems. And this kind of thing is not
                > > > > > unique to Eckankar.
                > > > > > Other groups have fought over succession, or who was the rightful and
                > > > > authentic
                > > > > > "Teacher". I'm not only talking Shiite and Sunni.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > The symbol of "World Teacher" was something become popular during the 20th
                > > > > > century (at least). The latter 1800s and early 1900s saw numbers of people
                > > > who
                > > > > > later contributed to "spiritual movements" in some way. Sant Mat and
                > > > > Radhasoami
                > > > > > evolved in parallel with other similar groups who looked to a form of
                > > > > "Teacher".
                > > > > > And though the titles appear to be different, the concept appears basically
                > > > > the
                > > > > > same. God's "so-called" representative on earth in the form of a single
                > > > > person,
                > > > > > guru, master, etc. Is this what the heart of the teachings held? Or
                > > > something
                > > > > > that so many people in a congregation created / made into a seemingly
                > > > literal
                > > > > > truth?
                > > > > >
                > > > > > I'm not sure Krishnamurti was describing himself as a "World Teacher".
                > > > > > It sounded (to me) like he suggested "The Beloved" was in all people and
                > > > > things.
                > > > > > As a speaker, he reminded me about a number of other speakers that people
                > > > had
                > > > > > propped up as "this" or "that". And - much like them - Krishnamurti appeared
                > > > > to
                > > > > > say that "the truth was within".
                > > > > >
                > > > > > And so this is what it (Religion, New Age, etc.) appears to come down to, to
                > > > > me.
                > > > > > That the "Teacher" is defaulting to the "Student" for the ultimate truth.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > How ironic that people found all these teachings, and all these gurus, so in
                > > > > the
                > > > > > end they can be told NOT to follow them, but follow their own experience and
                > > > > > inner guidance above all.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Of course, it might help the followers if the teachers would admit to (and
                > > > > > further clarify and correct) those elements of pseudo history / religion
                > > > > > propagated by churches and groups. IMHO.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Etznab
                > > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
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