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Re: Krishnamurti

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  • prometheus_973
    Hello Etznab, I agree, religions were never supposed to be. The spiritual is individualistic, personal and unique to each Soul. People tend to see their own
    Message 1 of 10 , Jan 29, 2011
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      Hello Etznab,
      I agree, religions were never
      supposed to be. The spiritual
      is individualistic, personal and
      unique to each Soul.

      People tend to see their own
      short comings and failures
      while putting others upon
      pedestals. They need to admire
      and worship a leader due to
      their own guilt and shame
      and laziness. Doesn't it usually
      takes less effort and thought
      to be a follower? Plus, people
      need hope when they experience
      inequities in government and/
      or in life.

      But, people were never
      supposed to follow another.
      They were to learn some
      things from others but see
      the lessons in their own lives.
      They are supposed to see
      and learn from their own
      tests. However, there are
      always those that take advantage
      of the weak minded and of
      opportunities to trick people.

      Most of these preachers, like
      Klemp, try to rationalize, at
      times, and claim they are doing
      good. But they know the truth
      behind the smoke and mirrors.
      Klemp is a conman and not a
      godman. And, at the same time,
      he's making a lot of money and
      will never share how much it
      really is with his flock of sheep.

      Jesus, supposedly, said that the
      kingdom of heaven is within...
      and then they made another
      religion out of his teachings
      when he was merely sharing
      the truth he learned for himself.

      Once religions get their hooks
      into people it's for life. Look at
      Eckankar. Supposedly at the 7th
      initiation one is free to leave, but
      when you read a bit further you
      see that you can't because of the
      fear of what could happen to you
      or shouldn't because of more greatness
      to come. It's that push/pull technique
      that Twit shared in Letters to Gail 3.

      After awhile ECKists start believing
      their own hype and the timid become
      almost as arrogant and self absorbed
      as the narcissists. All become even
      more delusional as time goes by and
      then they pass it on to the next generation.
      What ECKists don't understand, and
      refuse to see, is that belief in Eckankar
      is the actual trap/test and a continuation
      of the Wheel of 84!

      Prometheus



      etznab wrote:

      Was updating some files recently
      and came across an old link. I read
      this years ago, but today it has new
      meaning.

      Quoting:

      It has been my practice to listen to everybody, always. I desired to learn, from
      the gardener, from the pariah, from the untouch able, from my neighbour, from my
      friend, from everything that could teach, in order to become one with the
      Beloved. When I had listened to all, and gathered the Truth wher ever I found
      it, I was able to develop myself fully. Now you are waiting for the Truth to
      come - out of one person; you are waiting for that Truth to be developed, to be
      forced upon you by authority, and you are worshipping that person instead of the
      Truth. When Krishnamurti dies, which is inevitable, you will make a religion,
      you will set about forming rules in your minds, because the individual,
      Krishnamurti, has represented to you the Truth; so you will build a temple, you
      will then begin to have ceremonies, to invent phrases.,dogmas, systems of
      beliefs, creeds, and to create philos ophies. If you build great foundations
      upon me, the individual, you will be caught in that house, in that temple, and
      so you will have to have another Teacher to come and extricate you from that
      temple, pull you out of that narrowness in order to liberate you; but the human
      mind is such that you will build another temple round Him, and so it will go on
      and on. But those who understand, who do not depend on authority, who hold all
      peoples in their hearts, will not build temples - they will really understand.
      [....]

      http://norea.net/krishnamurti/truth.htm

      Krishnamurti (IMO) was chosen (in his youth), groomed and propped up by the
      Theosophical Society to be some sort of "World Teacher". In the end, he
      apparently went his own way.

      "[....] His new direction reached a climax in 1929, when he rebuffed attempts by
      Leadbeater and Besant to continue with the Order of the Star. Krishnamurti
      dissolved the Order during the annual Star Camp at Ommen, the Netherlands, on 3
      August 1929[83] in front of Annie Besant, three thousand members, and a radio
      audience.[84] In the so-called Dissolution Speech, he stated that he made his
      decision after 'careful consideration' during the previous two years, ... .
      [....]"

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiddu_Krishnamurti#Break_with_the_past

      I thought some interesting things were mentioned in the first link about Who
      Brings the Truth? My impression was that Krishnamurti was breaking away from
      dogma built up around him by others and was asking people to find the truth for
      themselves. Interesting that.

      Did Paul Twitchell, Darwin Gross or Harold Klemp do this for members and
      followers of Eckankar? Perhaps some of it in the wording of Eck teachings but,
      as the organization grew, so the "Mahanta" mythology also grew. Eventually there
      would come a time (1980s) where people were asked (told?) to choose between one
      person or another. Darwin or Harold, it seems. And this kind of thing is not
      unique to Eckankar.
      Other groups have fought over succession, or who was the rightful and authentic
      "Teacher". I'm not only talking Shiite and Sunni.

      The symbol of "World Teacher" was something become popular during the 20th
      century (at least). The latter 1800s and early 1900s saw numbers of people who
      later contributed to "spiritual movements" in some way. Sant Mat and Radhasoami
      evolved in parallel with other similar groups who looked to a form of "Teacher".
      And though the titles appear to be different, the concept appears basically the
      same. God's "so-called" representative on earth in the form of a single person,
      guru, master, etc. Is this what the heart of the teachings held? Or something
      that so many people in a congregation created / made into a seemingly literal
      truth?

      I'm not sure Krishnamurti was describing himself as a "World Teacher".
      It sounded (to me) like he suggested "The Beloved" was in all people and things.
      As a speaker, he reminded me about a number of other speakers that people had
      propped up as "this" or "that". And - much like them - Krishnamurti appeared to
      say that "the truth was within".

      And so this is what it (Religion, New Age, etc.) appears to come down to, to me.
      That the "Teacher" is defaulting to the "Student" for the ultimate truth.

      How ironic that people found all these teachings, and all these gurus, so in the
      end they can be told NOT to follow them, but follow their own experience and
      inner guidance above all.

      Of course, it might help the followers if the teachers would admit to (and
      further clarify and correct) those elements of pseudo history / religion
      propagated by churches and groups. IMHO.

      Etznab
    • prometheus_973
      Hello Etznab, Upon thinking about it I d like to change a remark I made. I said, But, people were never supposed to follow another. When I thought about this
      Message 2 of 10 , Jan 30, 2011
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        Hello Etznab,
        Upon thinking about it
        I'd like to change a remark
        I made. I said, "But, people
        were never supposed to
        follow another." When I
        thought about this I saw
        that it was far from accurate.

        We started out being followers
        of stronger and more clever
        leaders and even in nature
        there are pecking orders. When
        we look at societies and clubs
        and organizations and political
        parties, sports teams, religions,
        etc. we can plainly see that humans
        tend to like, follow, and hold in
        higher esteem those stronger,
        faster, more skilled, smarter,
        knowledgable, or "spiritual"
        than themselves. Most of our
        opinions in these matters, of
        course, are subjective. And,
        they (we) tend to join groups
        of like minded people in order
        to feel good about ourselves.
        After all, 'Misery loves company;
        The more the merrier;' and, 'Might
        makes right!'

        But, unlike religion and other
        group endeavors, true "spirituality"
        is not a team sport or group effort.
        Eckists have been tricked into
        thinking that it is.

        Prometheus

        prometheus wrote:

        Hello Etznab,

        I agree, religions were never
        supposed to be. The spiritual
        is individualistic, personal and
        unique to each Soul.

        People tend to see their own
        short comings and failures
        while putting others upon
        pedestals. They need to admire
        and worship a leader due to
        their own guilt and shame
        and laziness. Doesn't it usually
        takes less effort and thought
        to be a follower? Plus, people
        need hope when they experience
        inequities in government and/
        or in life.

        But, people were never
        supposed to follow another.
        They were to learn some
        things from others but see
        the lessons in their own lives.
        They are supposed to see
        and learn from their own
        tests. However, there are
        always those that take advantage
        of the weak minded and of
        opportunities to trick people.

        Most of these preachers, like
        Klemp, try to rationalize, at
        times, and claim they are doing
        good. But they know the truth
        behind the smoke and mirrors.
        Klemp is a conman and not a
        godman. And, at the same time,
        he's making a lot of money and
        will never share how much it
        really is with his flock of sheep.

        Jesus, supposedly, said that the
        kingdom of heaven is within...
        and then they made another
        religion out of his teachings
        when he was merely sharing
        the truth he learned for himself.

        Once religions get their hooks
        into people it's for life. Look at
        Eckankar. Supposedly at the 7th
        initiation one is free to leave, but
        when you read a bit further you
        see that you can't because of the
        fear of what could happen to you
        or shouldn't because of more greatness
        to come. It's that push/pull technique
        that Twit shared in Letters to Gail 3.

        After awhile ECKists start believing
        their own hype and the timid become
        almost as arrogant and self absorbed
        as the narcissists. All become even
        more delusional as time goes by and
        then they pass it on to the next generation.
        What ECKists don't understand, and
        refuse to see, is that belief in Eckankar
        is the actual trap/test and a continuation
        of the Wheel of 84!

        Prometheus



        etznab wrote:

        Was updating some files recently
        and came across an old link. I read
        this years ago, but today it has new
        meaning.

        Quoting:

        It has been my practice to listen to everybody, always. I desired to learn, from
        the gardener, from the pariah, from the untouch able, from my neighbour, from my
        friend, from everything that could teach, in order to become one with the
        Beloved. When I had listened to all, and gathered the Truth wher ever I found
        it, I was able to develop myself fully. Now you are waiting for the Truth to
        come - out of one person; you are waiting for that Truth to be developed, to be
        forced upon you by authority, and you are worshipping that person instead of the
        Truth. When Krishnamurti dies, which is inevitable, you will make a religion,
        you will set about forming rules in your minds, because the individual,
        Krishnamurti, has represented to you the Truth; so you will build a temple, you
        will then begin to have ceremonies, to invent phrases.,dogmas, systems of
        beliefs, creeds, and to create philos ophies. If you build great foundations
        upon me, the individual, you will be caught in that house, in that temple, and
        so you will have to have another Teacher to come and extricate you from that
        temple, pull you out of that narrowness in order to liberate you; but the human
        mind is such that you will build another temple round Him, and so it will go on
        and on. But those who understand, who do not depend on authority, who hold all
        peoples in their hearts, will not build temples - they will really understand.
        [....]

        http://norea.net/krishnamurti/truth.htm

        Krishnamurti (IMO) was chosen (in his youth), groomed and propped up by the
        Theosophical Society to be some sort of "World Teacher". In the end, he
        apparently went his own way.

        "[....] His new direction reached a climax in 1929, when he rebuffed attempts by
        Leadbeater and Besant to continue with the Order of the Star. Krishnamurti
        dissolved the Order during the annual Star Camp at Ommen, the Netherlands, on 3
        August 1929[83] in front of Annie Besant, three thousand members, and a radio
        audience.[84] In the so-called Dissolution Speech, he stated that he made his
        decision after 'careful consideration' during the previous two years, ... .
        [....]"

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiddu_Krishnamurti#Break_with_the_past

        I thought some interesting things were mentioned in the first link about Who
        Brings the Truth? My impression was that Krishnamurti was breaking away from
        dogma built up around him by others and was asking people to find the truth for
        themselves. Interesting that.

        Did Paul Twitchell, Darwin Gross or Harold Klemp do this for members and
        followers of Eckankar? Perhaps some of it in the wording of Eck teachings but,
        as the organization grew, so the "Mahanta" mythology also grew. Eventually there
        would come a time (1980s) where people were asked (told?) to choose between one
        person or another. Darwin or Harold, it seems. And this kind of thing is not
        unique to Eckankar.
        Other groups have fought over succession, or who was the rightful and authentic
        "Teacher". I'm not only talking Shiite and Sunni.

        The symbol of "World Teacher" was something become popular during the 20th
        century (at least). The latter 1800s and early 1900s saw numbers of people who
        later contributed to "spiritual movements" in some way. Sant Mat and Radhasoami
        evolved in parallel with other similar groups who looked to a form of "Teacher".
        And though the titles appear to be different, the concept appears basically the
        same. God's "so-called" representative on earth in the form of a single person,
        guru, master, etc. Is this what the heart of the teachings held? Or something
        that so many people in a congregation created / made into a seemingly literal
        truth?

        I'm not sure Krishnamurti was describing himself as a "World Teacher".
        It sounded (to me) like he suggested "The Beloved" was in all people and things.
        As a speaker, he reminded me about a number of other speakers that people had
        propped up as "this" or "that". And - much like them - Krishnamurti appeared to
        say that "the truth was within".

        And so this is what it (Religion, New Age, etc.) appears to come down to, to me.
        That the "Teacher" is defaulting to the "Student" for the ultimate truth.

        How ironic that people found all these teachings, and all these gurus, so in the
        end they can be told NOT to follow them, but follow their own experience and
        inner guidance above all.

        Of course, it might help the followers if the teachers would admit to (and
        further clarify and correct) those elements of pseudo history / religion
        propagated by churches and groups. IMHO.

        Etznab
      • dianastanley43
        The first people we look to for answers is are parents. Then peers and teachers. Always thinking some one must have the answers to our questions. When we
        Message 3 of 10 , Jan 30, 2011
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          The first people we look to for answers is are parents. Then peers and teachers. Always thinking some one must have the answers to our questions. When we become interested in finding God we either follow are parents religion or begin a search. I don't know how many books I read,paths I followed untill I discovered that if you are in your house you don't need a path to find it. The book Quantum Counciousness by Steven wolinsky started me on the journey back to myself. I can say from experience that fowllowing someone else is a lot easeir plus you have someone to blame if it doesn't work out!!!!
          Diana
          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hello Etznab,
          > Upon thinking about it
          > I'd like to change a remark
          > I made. I said, "But, people
          > were never supposed to
          > follow another." When I
          > thought about this I saw
          > that it was far from accurate.
          >
          > We started out being followers
          > of stronger and more clever
          > leaders and even in nature
          > there are pecking orders. When
          > we look at societies and clubs
          > and organizations and political
          > parties, sports teams, religions,
          > etc. we can plainly see that humans
          > tend to like, follow, and hold in
          > higher esteem those stronger,
          > faster, more skilled, smarter,
          > knowledgable, or "spiritual"
          > than themselves. Most of our
          > opinions in these matters, of
          > course, are subjective. And,
          > they (we) tend to join groups
          > of like minded people in order
          > to feel good about ourselves.
          > After all, 'Misery loves company;
          > The more the merrier;' and, 'Might
          > makes right!'
          >
          > But, unlike religion and other
          > group endeavors, true "spirituality"
          > is not a team sport or group effort.
          > Eckists have been tricked into
          > thinking that it is.
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
          > prometheus wrote:
          >
          > Hello Etznab,
          >
          > I agree, religions were never
          > supposed to be. The spiritual
          > is individualistic, personal and
          > unique to each Soul.
          >
          > People tend to see their own
          > short comings and failures
          > while putting others upon
          > pedestals. They need to admire
          > and worship a leader due to
          > their own guilt and shame
          > and laziness. Doesn't it usually
          > takes less effort and thought
          > to be a follower? Plus, people
          > need hope when they experience
          > inequities in government and/
          > or in life.
          >
          > But, people were never
          > supposed to follow another.
          > They were to learn some
          > things from others but see
          > the lessons in their own lives.
          > They are supposed to see
          > and learn from their own
          > tests. However, there are
          > always those that take advantage
          > of the weak minded and of
          > opportunities to trick people.
          >
          > Most of these preachers, like
          > Klemp, try to rationalize, at
          > times, and claim they are doing
          > good. But they know the truth
          > behind the smoke and mirrors.
          > Klemp is a conman and not a
          > godman. And, at the same time,
          > he's making a lot of money and
          > will never share how much it
          > really is with his flock of sheep.
          >
          > Jesus, supposedly, said that the
          > kingdom of heaven is within...
          > and then they made another
          > religion out of his teachings
          > when he was merely sharing
          > the truth he learned for himself.
          >
          > Once religions get their hooks
          > into people it's for life. Look at
          > Eckankar. Supposedly at the 7th
          > initiation one is free to leave, but
          > when you read a bit further you
          > see that you can't because of the
          > fear of what could happen to you
          > or shouldn't because of more greatness
          > to come. It's that push/pull technique
          > that Twit shared in Letters to Gail 3.
          >
          > After awhile ECKists start believing
          > their own hype and the timid become
          > almost as arrogant and self absorbed
          > as the narcissists. All become even
          > more delusional as time goes by and
          > then they pass it on to the next generation.
          > What ECKists don't understand, and
          > refuse to see, is that belief in Eckankar
          > is the actual trap/test and a continuation
          > of the Wheel of 84!
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
          >
          >
          > etznab wrote:
          >
          > Was updating some files recently
          > and came across an old link. I read
          > this years ago, but today it has new
          > meaning.
          >
          > Quoting:
          >
          > It has been my practice to listen to everybody, always. I desired to learn, from
          > the gardener, from the pariah, from the untouch able, from my neighbour, from my
          > friend, from everything that could teach, in order to become one with the
          > Beloved. When I had listened to all, and gathered the Truth wher ever I found
          > it, I was able to develop myself fully. Now you are waiting for the Truth to
          > come - out of one person; you are waiting for that Truth to be developed, to be
          > forced upon you by authority, and you are worshipping that person instead of the
          > Truth. When Krishnamurti dies, which is inevitable, you will make a religion,
          > you will set about forming rules in your minds, because the individual,
          > Krishnamurti, has represented to you the Truth; so you will build a temple, you
          > will then begin to have ceremonies, to invent phrases.,dogmas, systems of
          > beliefs, creeds, and to create philos ophies. If you build great foundations
          > upon me, the individual, you will be caught in that house, in that temple, and
          > so you will have to have another Teacher to come and extricate you from that
          > temple, pull you out of that narrowness in order to liberate you; but the human
          > mind is such that you will build another temple round Him, and so it will go on
          > and on. But those who understand, who do not depend on authority, who hold all
          > peoples in their hearts, will not build temples - they will really understand.
          > [....]
          >
          > http://norea.net/krishnamurti/truth.htm
          >
          > Krishnamurti (IMO) was chosen (in his youth), groomed and propped up by the
          > Theosophical Society to be some sort of "World Teacher". In the end, he
          > apparently went his own way.
          >
          > "[....] His new direction reached a climax in 1929, when he rebuffed attempts by
          > Leadbeater and Besant to continue with the Order of the Star. Krishnamurti
          > dissolved the Order during the annual Star Camp at Ommen, the Netherlands, on 3
          > August 1929[83] in front of Annie Besant, three thousand members, and a radio
          > audience.[84] In the so-called Dissolution Speech, he stated that he made his
          > decision after 'careful consideration' during the previous two years, ... .
          > [....]"
          >
          > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiddu_Krishnamurti#Break_with_the_past
          >
          > I thought some interesting things were mentioned in the first link about Who
          > Brings the Truth? My impression was that Krishnamurti was breaking away from
          > dogma built up around him by others and was asking people to find the truth for
          > themselves. Interesting that.
          >
          > Did Paul Twitchell, Darwin Gross or Harold Klemp do this for members and
          > followers of Eckankar? Perhaps some of it in the wording of Eck teachings but,
          > as the organization grew, so the "Mahanta" mythology also grew. Eventually there
          > would come a time (1980s) where people were asked (told?) to choose between one
          > person or another. Darwin or Harold, it seems. And this kind of thing is not
          > unique to Eckankar.
          > Other groups have fought over succession, or who was the rightful and authentic
          > "Teacher". I'm not only talking Shiite and Sunni.
          >
          > The symbol of "World Teacher" was something become popular during the 20th
          > century (at least). The latter 1800s and early 1900s saw numbers of people who
          > later contributed to "spiritual movements" in some way. Sant Mat and Radhasoami
          > evolved in parallel with other similar groups who looked to a form of "Teacher".
          > And though the titles appear to be different, the concept appears basically the
          > same. God's "so-called" representative on earth in the form of a single person,
          > guru, master, etc. Is this what the heart of the teachings held? Or something
          > that so many people in a congregation created / made into a seemingly literal
          > truth?
          >
          > I'm not sure Krishnamurti was describing himself as a "World Teacher".
          > It sounded (to me) like he suggested "The Beloved" was in all people and things.
          > As a speaker, he reminded me about a number of other speakers that people had
          > propped up as "this" or "that". And - much like them - Krishnamurti appeared to
          > say that "the truth was within".
          >
          > And so this is what it (Religion, New Age, etc.) appears to come down to, to me.
          > That the "Teacher" is defaulting to the "Student" for the ultimate truth.
          >
          > How ironic that people found all these teachings, and all these gurus, so in the
          > end they can be told NOT to follow them, but follow their own experience and
          > inner guidance above all.
          >
          > Of course, it might help the followers if the teachers would admit to (and
          > further clarify and correct) those elements of pseudo history / religion
          > propagated by churches and groups. IMHO.
          >
          > Etznab
          >
        • prometheus_973
          Hello Diana, IMO-It is true that we first look to our parents as authority figures and then to teachers and to the clergy, etc.. We are also taught to see
          Message 4 of 10 , Jan 31, 2011
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            Hello Diana,
            IMO-It is true that we first look
            to our parents as authority figures
            and then to teachers and to the
            clergy, etc.. We are also taught to
            see others as authority figures
            such as the police or others in
            our social, religious, and political
            hierarchies.

            I'm not so sure about "peers"
            since we need to elevate people
            to a status higher than ourselves.

            In college we had professors upon
            pedestals, too, and then later when
            I got to know some of these PH.Ds
            and MDs on a personal level that
            was corrected. The same takes place
            within religion. Those deemed
            "closer to God" or more "spiritual"
            and knowledgable of the dogma
            are held in high esteem, until, if
            we're lucky we are able to see them
            for what they are. At one time I had
            certain ECKists upon pedestals and
            as I learned more and had more clarity
            of consciousness I saw through that
            mindset and the error in that belief.

            There are always "experts" out there
            and/or those for us to admire, but
            that's the problem. We can use what
            others give us but we have to be careful
            with placing them above us.

            In Eckankar I was given one piece of
            information, or a perspective, that
            prepared me to see more clearly when
            Ford came out with the truth about
            Twitchell and the others including
            Klemp. It was, "Soul equals Soul."

            Once we take everyone down off their
            pedestals that we've placed them upon,
            or they've placed themselves upon, then
            we can start seeing them as being "peer."
            But, this isn't what they want us to see,
            nor what we, ourselves, desire either!

            Sure, many people have special talents
            that either come naturally or with lots
            of effort, but it still doesn't mean that
            they are better than any of us. However,
            one's ego wants and needs them to be
            special and in control, plus, they like the
            attention. For some people, even negative
            attention is better than being ignored.
            This is why some children act up. The
            negative attention is better than none
            at all.

            Klemp likes attention but not the
            responsibilities he's created for himself.
            This is why he never takes responsibility
            on any level even though he is responsible
            for all decisions made at and coming from
            the ESC. Instead, Klemp hits the ball back
            into the court of the Initiates under him.
            It's always their fault and their responsibility
            and not his. HK's above responsibility and
            "is a law unto himself."

            But, if it wasn't for Darwin Gross Klemp
            would either be a 7th or 8th initiate and still
            be working at the ESC. He's nothing special.
            But, now, he always has to let EKists know
            who's in charge. He's always introduced, or
            mentioning that he's the (14th Initiate) Mahanta/
            LEM i.e. the ECK, the Godman. Then he says
            I'm not perfect or I'm just like you and you
            aren't to worship (me) the Mahanta. But,
            when one is encouraged to have complete
            reliance upon the Mahanta/God (Klemp) for
            all things and to stare at his picture or to
            dream about him, then, what does this really
            say? I don't see a "Soul=Soul" or "I'm not
            perfect" image being projected... just the
            opposite!

            Anyway, this is the "trap" AND the "test"
            that people go through. What we should
            be doing is sharing this admiration and
            high esteem with ourselves. Let's assume
            that Soul equals Soul. Therefore, as Soul,
            we can all share in the divine nature that
            other Souls project. But, what about the
            harm that Souls do to other Souls?

            Life is both a series of traps and tests.
            We try to do what's best, or we deem
            best, while limiting the negative effects
            of what both the traps and tests have
            upon us. Sometimes we create or cause
            our own traps and tests and sometimes
            others, or nature, does that for us. It's
            hard to say how much "karma" or divine
            nudges are involved with this experiment
            of life. It's a mystery that we have to seek
            to uncover for ourselves and with a little
            help from our friends.

            Prometheus

            dianastanley wrote:

            The first people we look to for answers
            is are parents. Then peers and teachers.
            Always thinking some one must have
            the answers to our questions. When
            we become interested in finding God
            we either follow are parents religion
            or begin a search.

            I don't know how many books I read,
            paths I followed until I discovered
            that if you are in your house you
            don't need a path to find it. The book
            Quantum Consciousness by Steven
            wolinsky started me on the journey
            back to myself. I can say from experience
            that following someone else is a lot
            easier plus you have someone to blame
            if it doesn't work out!!!!

            Diana

            prometheus wrote:
            >
            > Hello Etznab,
            > Upon thinking about it
            > I'd like to change a remark
            > I made. I said, "But, people
            > were never supposed to
            > follow another." When I
            > thought about this I saw
            > that it was far from accurate.
            >
            > We started out being followers
            > of stronger and more clever
            > leaders and even in nature
            > there are pecking orders. When
            > we look at societies and clubs
            > and organizations and political
            > parties, sports teams, religions,
            > etc. we can plainly see that humans
            > tend to like, follow, and hold in
            > higher esteem those stronger,
            > faster, more skilled, smarter,
            > knowledgable, or "spiritual"
            > than themselves. Most of our
            > opinions in these matters, of
            > course, are subjective. And,
            > they (we) tend to join groups
            > of like minded people in order
            > to feel good about ourselves.
            > After all, 'Misery loves company;
            > The more the merrier;' and, 'Might
            > makes right!'
            >
            > But, unlike religion and other
            > group endeavors, true "spirituality"
            > is not a team sport or group effort.
            > Eckists have been tricked into
            > thinking that it is.
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
            > prometheus wrote:
            >
            > Hello Etznab,
            >
            > I agree, religions were never
            > supposed to be. The spiritual
            > is individualistic, personal and
            > unique to each Soul.
            >
            > People tend to see their own
            > short comings and failures
            > while putting others upon
            > pedestals. They need to admire
            > and worship a leader due to
            > their own guilt and shame
            > and laziness. Doesn't it usually
            > takes less effort and thought
            > to be a follower? Plus, people
            > need hope when they experience
            > inequities in government and/
            > or in life.
            >
            > But, people were never
            > supposed to follow another.
            > They were to learn some
            > things from others but see
            > the lessons in their own lives.
            > They are supposed to see
            > and learn from their own
            > tests. However, there are
            > always those that take advantage
            > of the weak minded and of
            > opportunities to trick people.
            >
            > Most of these preachers, like
            > Klemp, try to rationalize, at
            > times, and claim they are doing
            > good. But they know the truth
            > behind the smoke and mirrors.
            > Klemp is a conman and not a
            > godman. And, at the same time,
            > he's making a lot of money and
            > will never share how much it
            > really is with his flock of sheep.
            >
            > Jesus, supposedly, said that the
            > kingdom of heaven is within...
            > and then they made another
            > religion out of his teachings
            > when he was merely sharing
            > the truth he learned for himself.
            >
            > Once religions get their hooks
            > into people it's for life. Look at
            > Eckankar. Supposedly at the 7th
            > initiation one is free to leave, but
            > when you read a bit further you
            > see that you can't because of the
            > fear of what could happen to you
            > or shouldn't because of more greatness
            > to come. It's that push/pull technique
            > that Twit shared in Letters to Gail 3.
            >
            > After awhile ECKists start believing
            > their own hype and the timid become
            > almost as arrogant and self absorbed
            > as the narcissists. All become even
            > more delusional as time goes by and
            > then they pass it on to the next generation.
            > What ECKists don't understand, and
            > refuse to see, is that belief in Eckankar
            > is the actual trap/test and a continuation
            > of the Wheel of 84!
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
            >
            >
            > etznab wrote:
            >
            > Was updating some files recently
            > and came across an old link. I read
            > this years ago, but today it has new
            > meaning.
            >
            > Quoting:
            >
            > It has been my practice to listen to everybody, always. I desired to learn,
            from
            > the gardener, from the pariah, from the untouch able, from my neighbour, from
            my
            > friend, from everything that could teach, in order to become one with the
            > Beloved. When I had listened to all, and gathered the Truth wher ever I found
            > it, I was able to develop myself fully. Now you are waiting for the Truth to
            > come - out of one person; you are waiting for that Truth to be developed, to
            be
            > forced upon you by authority, and you are worshipping that person instead of
            the
            > Truth. When Krishnamurti dies, which is inevitable, you will make a religion,
            > you will set about forming rules in your minds, because the individual,
            > Krishnamurti, has represented to you the Truth; so you will build a temple,
            you
            > will then begin to have ceremonies, to invent phrases.,dogmas, systems of
            > beliefs, creeds, and to create philos ophies. If you build great foundations
            > upon me, the individual, you will be caught in that house, in that temple, and
            > so you will have to have another Teacher to come and extricate you from that
            > temple, pull you out of that narrowness in order to liberate you; but the
            human
            > mind is such that you will build another temple round Him, and so it will go
            on
            > and on. But those who understand, who do not depend on authority, who hold all
            > peoples in their hearts, will not build temples - they will really understand.
            > [....]
            >
            > http://norea.net/krishnamurti/truth.htm
            >
            > Krishnamurti (IMO) was chosen (in his youth), groomed and propped up by the
            > Theosophical Society to be some sort of "World Teacher". In the end, he
            > apparently went his own way.
            >
            > "[....] His new direction reached a climax in 1929, when he rebuffed attempts
            by
            > Leadbeater and Besant to continue with the Order of the Star. Krishnamurti
            > dissolved the Order during the annual Star Camp at Ommen, the Netherlands, on
            3
            > August 1929[83] in front of Annie Besant, three thousand members, and a radio
            > audience.[84] In the so-called Dissolution Speech, he stated that he made his
            > decision after 'careful consideration' during the previous two years, ... .
            > [....]"
            >
            > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiddu_Krishnamurti#Break_with_the_past
            >
            > I thought some interesting things were mentioned in the first link about Who
            > Brings the Truth? My impression was that Krishnamurti was breaking away from
            > dogma built up around him by others and was asking people to find the truth
            for
            > themselves. Interesting that.
            >
            > Did Paul Twitchell, Darwin Gross or Harold Klemp do this for members and
            > followers of Eckankar? Perhaps some of it in the wording of Eck teachings but,
            > as the organization grew, so the "Mahanta" mythology also grew. Eventually
            there
            > would come a time (1980s) where people were asked (told?) to choose between
            one
            > person or another. Darwin or Harold, it seems. And this kind of thing is not
            > unique to Eckankar.
            > Other groups have fought over succession, or who was the rightful and
            authentic
            > "Teacher". I'm not only talking Shiite and Sunni.
            >
            > The symbol of "World Teacher" was something become popular during the 20th
            > century (at least). The latter 1800s and early 1900s saw numbers of people who
            > later contributed to "spiritual movements" in some way. Sant Mat and
            Radhasoami
            > evolved in parallel with other similar groups who looked to a form of
            "Teacher".
            > And though the titles appear to be different, the concept appears basically
            the
            > same. God's "so-called" representative on earth in the form of a single
            person,
            > guru, master, etc. Is this what the heart of the teachings held? Or something
            > that so many people in a congregation created / made into a seemingly literal
            > truth?
            >
            > I'm not sure Krishnamurti was describing himself as a "World Teacher".
            > It sounded (to me) like he suggested "The Beloved" was in all people and
            things.
            > As a speaker, he reminded me about a number of other speakers that people had
            > propped up as "this" or "that". And - much like them - Krishnamurti appeared
            to
            > say that "the truth was within".
            >
            > And so this is what it (Religion, New Age, etc.) appears to come down to, to
            me.
            > That the "Teacher" is defaulting to the "Student" for the ultimate truth.
            >
            > How ironic that people found all these teachings, and all these gurus, so in
            the
            > end they can be told NOT to follow them, but follow their own experience and
            > inner guidance above all.
            >
            > Of course, it might help the followers if the teachers would admit to (and
            > further clarify and correct) those elements of pseudo history / religion
            > propagated by churches and groups. IMHO.
            >
            > Etznab
            >
          • dianastanley43
            Very true. I am of the opinion now that on a quantum level every atom has couniousness and it the same as every other atom. I am inclined to beleive that
            Message 5 of 10 , Feb 1, 2011
            • 0 Attachment
              Very true. I am of the opinion now that on a quantum level every atom has couniousness and it the same as every other atom. I am inclined to beleive that every soul is the same as every other soul. It is identifying with the body we are in that makes us feel speacial and different from others. When in fact there is no difference.
              Diana
              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hello Diana,
              > IMO-It is true that we first look
              > to our parents as authority figures
              > and then to teachers and to the
              > clergy, etc.. We are also taught to
              > see others as authority figures
              > such as the police or others in
              > our social, religious, and political
              > hierarchies.
              >
              > I'm not so sure about "peers"
              > since we need to elevate people
              > to a status higher than ourselves.
              >
              > In college we had professors upon
              > pedestals, too, and then later when
              > I got to know some of these PH.Ds
              > and MDs on a personal level that
              > was corrected. The same takes place
              > within religion. Those deemed
              > "closer to God" or more "spiritual"
              > and knowledgable of the dogma
              > are held in high esteem, until, if
              > we're lucky we are able to see them
              > for what they are. At one time I had
              > certain ECKists upon pedestals and
              > as I learned more and had more clarity
              > of consciousness I saw through that
              > mindset and the error in that belief.
              >
              > There are always "experts" out there
              > and/or those for us to admire, but
              > that's the problem. We can use what
              > others give us but we have to be careful
              > with placing them above us.
              >
              > In Eckankar I was given one piece of
              > information, or a perspective, that
              > prepared me to see more clearly when
              > Ford came out with the truth about
              > Twitchell and the others including
              > Klemp. It was, "Soul equals Soul."
              >
              > Once we take everyone down off their
              > pedestals that we've placed them upon,
              > or they've placed themselves upon, then
              > we can start seeing them as being "peer."
              > But, this isn't what they want us to see,
              > nor what we, ourselves, desire either!
              >
              > Sure, many people have special talents
              > that either come naturally or with lots
              > of effort, but it still doesn't mean that
              > they are better than any of us. However,
              > one's ego wants and needs them to be
              > special and in control, plus, they like the
              > attention. For some people, even negative
              > attention is better than being ignored.
              > This is why some children act up. The
              > negative attention is better than none
              > at all.
              >
              > Klemp likes attention but not the
              > responsibilities he's created for himself.
              > This is why he never takes responsibility
              > on any level even though he is responsible
              > for all decisions made at and coming from
              > the ESC. Instead, Klemp hits the ball back
              > into the court of the Initiates under him.
              > It's always their fault and their responsibility
              > and not his. HK's above responsibility and
              > "is a law unto himself."
              >
              > But, if it wasn't for Darwin Gross Klemp
              > would either be a 7th or 8th initiate and still
              > be working at the ESC. He's nothing special.
              > But, now, he always has to let EKists know
              > who's in charge. He's always introduced, or
              > mentioning that he's the (14th Initiate) Mahanta/
              > LEM i.e. the ECK, the Godman. Then he says
              > I'm not perfect or I'm just like you and you
              > aren't to worship (me) the Mahanta. But,
              > when one is encouraged to have complete
              > reliance upon the Mahanta/God (Klemp) for
              > all things and to stare at his picture or to
              > dream about him, then, what does this really
              > say? I don't see a "Soul=Soul" or "I'm not
              > perfect" image being projected... just the
              > opposite!
              >
              > Anyway, this is the "trap" AND the "test"
              > that people go through. What we should
              > be doing is sharing this admiration and
              > high esteem with ourselves. Let's assume
              > that Soul equals Soul. Therefore, as Soul,
              > we can all share in the divine nature that
              > other Souls project. But, what about the
              > harm that Souls do to other Souls?
              >
              > Life is both a series of traps and tests.
              > We try to do what's best, or we deem
              > best, while limiting the negative effects
              > of what both the traps and tests have
              > upon us. Sometimes we create or cause
              > our own traps and tests and sometimes
              > others, or nature, does that for us. It's
              > hard to say how much "karma" or divine
              > nudges are involved with this experiment
              > of life. It's a mystery that we have to seek
              > to uncover for ourselves and with a little
              > help from our friends.
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
              > dianastanley wrote:
              >
              > The first people we look to for answers
              > is are parents. Then peers and teachers.
              > Always thinking some one must have
              > the answers to our questions. When
              > we become interested in finding God
              > we either follow are parents religion
              > or begin a search.
              >
              > I don't know how many books I read,
              > paths I followed until I discovered
              > that if you are in your house you
              > don't need a path to find it. The book
              > Quantum Consciousness by Steven
              > wolinsky started me on the journey
              > back to myself. I can say from experience
              > that following someone else is a lot
              > easier plus you have someone to blame
              > if it doesn't work out!!!!
              >
              > Diana
              >
              > prometheus wrote:
              > >
              > > Hello Etznab,
              > > Upon thinking about it
              > > I'd like to change a remark
              > > I made. I said, "But, people
              > > were never supposed to
              > > follow another." When I
              > > thought about this I saw
              > > that it was far from accurate.
              > >
              > > We started out being followers
              > > of stronger and more clever
              > > leaders and even in nature
              > > there are pecking orders. When
              > > we look at societies and clubs
              > > and organizations and political
              > > parties, sports teams, religions,
              > > etc. we can plainly see that humans
              > > tend to like, follow, and hold in
              > > higher esteem those stronger,
              > > faster, more skilled, smarter,
              > > knowledgable, or "spiritual"
              > > than themselves. Most of our
              > > opinions in these matters, of
              > > course, are subjective. And,
              > > they (we) tend to join groups
              > > of like minded people in order
              > > to feel good about ourselves.
              > > After all, 'Misery loves company;
              > > The more the merrier;' and, 'Might
              > > makes right!'
              > >
              > > But, unlike religion and other
              > > group endeavors, true "spirituality"
              > > is not a team sport or group effort.
              > > Eckists have been tricked into
              > > thinking that it is.
              > >
              > > Prometheus
              > >
              > > prometheus wrote:
              > >
              > > Hello Etznab,
              > >
              > > I agree, religions were never
              > > supposed to be. The spiritual
              > > is individualistic, personal and
              > > unique to each Soul.
              > >
              > > People tend to see their own
              > > short comings and failures
              > > while putting others upon
              > > pedestals. They need to admire
              > > and worship a leader due to
              > > their own guilt and shame
              > > and laziness. Doesn't it usually
              > > takes less effort and thought
              > > to be a follower? Plus, people
              > > need hope when they experience
              > > inequities in government and/
              > > or in life.
              > >
              > > But, people were never
              > > supposed to follow another.
              > > They were to learn some
              > > things from others but see
              > > the lessons in their own lives.
              > > They are supposed to see
              > > and learn from their own
              > > tests. However, there are
              > > always those that take advantage
              > > of the weak minded and of
              > > opportunities to trick people.
              > >
              > > Most of these preachers, like
              > > Klemp, try to rationalize, at
              > > times, and claim they are doing
              > > good. But they know the truth
              > > behind the smoke and mirrors.
              > > Klemp is a conman and not a
              > > godman. And, at the same time,
              > > he's making a lot of money and
              > > will never share how much it
              > > really is with his flock of sheep.
              > >
              > > Jesus, supposedly, said that the
              > > kingdom of heaven is within...
              > > and then they made another
              > > religion out of his teachings
              > > when he was merely sharing
              > > the truth he learned for himself.
              > >
              > > Once religions get their hooks
              > > into people it's for life. Look at
              > > Eckankar. Supposedly at the 7th
              > > initiation one is free to leave, but
              > > when you read a bit further you
              > > see that you can't because of the
              > > fear of what could happen to you
              > > or shouldn't because of more greatness
              > > to come. It's that push/pull technique
              > > that Twit shared in Letters to Gail 3.
              > >
              > > After awhile ECKists start believing
              > > their own hype and the timid become
              > > almost as arrogant and self absorbed
              > > as the narcissists. All become even
              > > more delusional as time goes by and
              > > then they pass it on to the next generation.
              > > What ECKists don't understand, and
              > > refuse to see, is that belief in Eckankar
              > > is the actual trap/test and a continuation
              > > of the Wheel of 84!
              > >
              > > Prometheus
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > etznab wrote:
              > >
              > > Was updating some files recently
              > > and came across an old link. I read
              > > this years ago, but today it has new
              > > meaning.
              > >
              > > Quoting:
              > >
              > > It has been my practice to listen to everybody, always. I desired to learn,
              > from
              > > the gardener, from the pariah, from the untouch able, from my neighbour, from
              > my
              > > friend, from everything that could teach, in order to become one with the
              > > Beloved. When I had listened to all, and gathered the Truth wher ever I found
              > > it, I was able to develop myself fully. Now you are waiting for the Truth to
              > > come - out of one person; you are waiting for that Truth to be developed, to
              > be
              > > forced upon you by authority, and you are worshipping that person instead of
              > the
              > > Truth. When Krishnamurti dies, which is inevitable, you will make a religion,
              > > you will set about forming rules in your minds, because the individual,
              > > Krishnamurti, has represented to you the Truth; so you will build a temple,
              > you
              > > will then begin to have ceremonies, to invent phrases.,dogmas, systems of
              > > beliefs, creeds, and to create philos ophies. If you build great foundations
              > > upon me, the individual, you will be caught in that house, in that temple, and
              > > so you will have to have another Teacher to come and extricate you from that
              > > temple, pull you out of that narrowness in order to liberate you; but the
              > human
              > > mind is such that you will build another temple round Him, and so it will go
              > on
              > > and on. But those who understand, who do not depend on authority, who hold all
              > > peoples in their hearts, will not build temples - they will really understand.
              > > [....]
              > >
              > > http://norea.net/krishnamurti/truth.htm
              > >
              > > Krishnamurti (IMO) was chosen (in his youth), groomed and propped up by the
              > > Theosophical Society to be some sort of "World Teacher". In the end, he
              > > apparently went his own way.
              > >
              > > "[....] His new direction reached a climax in 1929, when he rebuffed attempts
              > by
              > > Leadbeater and Besant to continue with the Order of the Star. Krishnamurti
              > > dissolved the Order during the annual Star Camp at Ommen, the Netherlands, on
              > 3
              > > August 1929[83] in front of Annie Besant, three thousand members, and a radio
              > > audience.[84] In the so-called Dissolution Speech, he stated that he made his
              > > decision after 'careful consideration' during the previous two years, ... .
              > > [....]"
              > >
              > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiddu_Krishnamurti#Break_with_the_past
              > >
              > > I thought some interesting things were mentioned in the first link about Who
              > > Brings the Truth? My impression was that Krishnamurti was breaking away from
              > > dogma built up around him by others and was asking people to find the truth
              > for
              > > themselves. Interesting that.
              > >
              > > Did Paul Twitchell, Darwin Gross or Harold Klemp do this for members and
              > > followers of Eckankar? Perhaps some of it in the wording of Eck teachings but,
              > > as the organization grew, so the "Mahanta" mythology also grew. Eventually
              > there
              > > would come a time (1980s) where people were asked (told?) to choose between
              > one
              > > person or another. Darwin or Harold, it seems. And this kind of thing is not
              > > unique to Eckankar.
              > > Other groups have fought over succession, or who was the rightful and
              > authentic
              > > "Teacher". I'm not only talking Shiite and Sunni.
              > >
              > > The symbol of "World Teacher" was something become popular during the 20th
              > > century (at least). The latter 1800s and early 1900s saw numbers of people who
              > > later contributed to "spiritual movements" in some way. Sant Mat and
              > Radhasoami
              > > evolved in parallel with other similar groups who looked to a form of
              > "Teacher".
              > > And though the titles appear to be different, the concept appears basically
              > the
              > > same. God's "so-called" representative on earth in the form of a single
              > person,
              > > guru, master, etc. Is this what the heart of the teachings held? Or something
              > > that so many people in a congregation created / made into a seemingly literal
              > > truth?
              > >
              > > I'm not sure Krishnamurti was describing himself as a "World Teacher".
              > > It sounded (to me) like he suggested "The Beloved" was in all people and
              > things.
              > > As a speaker, he reminded me about a number of other speakers that people had
              > > propped up as "this" or "that". And - much like them - Krishnamurti appeared
              > to
              > > say that "the truth was within".
              > >
              > > And so this is what it (Religion, New Age, etc.) appears to come down to, to
              > me.
              > > That the "Teacher" is defaulting to the "Student" for the ultimate truth.
              > >
              > > How ironic that people found all these teachings, and all these gurus, so in
              > the
              > > end they can be told NOT to follow them, but follow their own experience and
              > > inner guidance above all.
              > >
              > > Of course, it might help the followers if the teachers would admit to (and
              > > further clarify and correct) those elements of pseudo history / religion
              > > propagated by churches and groups. IMHO.
              > >
              > > Etznab
              > >
              >
            • prometheus_973
              Hello Diana and All, One of the biggest lies, and fraud, is to say that women aren t equal to men. Eckankar contradicts itself and has a typical ekplanation as
              Message 6 of 10 , Feb 2, 2011
              • 0 Attachment
                Hello Diana and All,
                One of the biggest lies, and
                fraud, is to say that women
                aren't equal to men. Eckankar
                contradicts itself and has a
                typical ekplanation as to why
                women can't be the LEM while
                being an EK Master like Kata Daki.
                Twitchell's negative atom/battery
                excuse is just more of the same
                we see in all manmade/male run
                religions.

                Supposedly, on the physical
                plane, the negative atom thing
                is the only reason why females
                can't be the LEM. This mysterious
                "fact" is what keeps women in
                their place as servants to the
                male LEM/Mahanta.

                It seems that every religion has
                some sort of myth, dogma, law,
                rule, excuse that has the same
                effect... to keep women in their
                place as second class citizens or
                members.

                On TV recently there was a show
                that shared things that were taken
                out of the Bible. Apparently there
                was a woman that came before Eve.
                Her name was Lillith and she was
                created by God the same as Adam.
                She was Adam's equal and this caused
                conflict. They were not to call God
                by his real name but she did and was
                taken up into heaven and didn't want
                to return. Anyway there's more to the
                story than that but apparently Adam
                asked for a woman that would be
                or lie beneath him. This is why Eve
                was created out of Adam's rib. The
                story about Lillith was taken out of
                the Bible because they (the church
                elders) didn't want women to think
                they were the equals to men.

                BTW- Eckankar believes this Garden
                of Eden Myth too. They say that the
                "Polarians" were the first race but
                Paul changed it up some and claims
                "ADOM" was the first man and "EDE"
                was the first woman. The inequality
                remains the same.

                Prometheus


                dianastanley wrote:
                Very true. I am of the opinion now
                that on a quantum level every atom
                has couniousness and it the same
                as every other atom. I am inclined
                to beleive that every soul is the same
                as every other soul. It is identifying
                with the body we are in that makes
                us feel speacial and different from
                others. When in fact there is no difference.

                Diana

                prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hello Diana,
                > IMO-It is true that we first look
                > to our parents as authority figures
                > and then to teachers and to the
                > clergy, etc.. We are also taught to
                > see others as authority figures
                > such as the police or others in
                > our social, religious, and political
                > hierarchies.
                >
                > I'm not so sure about "peers"
                > since we need to elevate people
                > to a status higher than ourselves.
                >
                > In college we had professors upon
                > pedestals, too, and then later when
                > I got to know some of these PH.Ds
                > and MDs on a personal level that
                > was corrected. The same takes place
                > within religion. Those deemed
                > "closer to God" or more "spiritual"
                > and knowledgable of the dogma
                > are held in high esteem, until, if
                > we're lucky we are able to see them
                > for what they are. At one time I had
                > certain ECKists upon pedestals and
                > as I learned more and had more clarity
                > of consciousness I saw through that
                > mindset and the error in that belief.
                >
                > There are always "experts" out there
                > and/or those for us to admire, but
                > that's the problem. We can use what
                > others give us but we have to be careful
                > with placing them above us.
                >
                > In Eckankar I was given one piece of
                > information, or a perspective, that
                > prepared me to see more clearly when
                > Ford came out with the truth about
                > Twitchell and the others including
                > Klemp. It was, "Soul equals Soul."
                >
                > Once we take everyone down off their
                > pedestals that we've placed them upon,
                > or they've placed themselves upon, then
                > we can start seeing them as being "peer."
                > But, this isn't what they want us to see,
                > nor what we, ourselves, desire either!
                >
                > Sure, many people have special talents
                > that either come naturally or with lots
                > of effort, but it still doesn't mean that
                > they are better than any of us. However,
                > one's ego wants and needs them to be
                > special and in control, plus, they like the
                > attention. For some people, even negative
                > attention is better than being ignored.
                > This is why some children act up. The
                > negative attention is better than none
                > at all.
                >
                > Klemp likes attention but not the
                > responsibilities he's created for himself.
                > This is why he never takes responsibility
                > on any level even though he is responsible
                > for all decisions made at and coming from
                > the ESC. Instead, Klemp hits the ball back
                > into the court of the Initiates under him.
                > It's always their fault and their responsibility
                > and not his. HK's above responsibility and
                > "is a law unto himself."
                >
                > But, if it wasn't for Darwin Gross Klemp
                > would either be a 7th or 8th initiate and still
                > be working at the ESC. He's nothing special.
                > But, now, he always has to let EKists know
                > who's in charge. He's always introduced, or
                > mentioning that he's the (14th Initiate) Mahanta/
                > LEM i.e. the ECK, the Godman. Then he says
                > I'm not perfect or I'm just like you and you
                > aren't to worship (me) the Mahanta. But,
                > when one is encouraged to have complete
                > reliance upon the Mahanta/God (Klemp) for
                > all things and to stare at his picture or to
                > dream about him, then, what does this really
                > say? I don't see a "Soul=Soul" or "I'm not
                > perfect" image being projected... just the
                > opposite!
                >
                > Anyway, this is the "trap" AND the "test"
                > that people go through. What we should
                > be doing is sharing this admiration and
                > high esteem with ourselves. Let's assume
                > that Soul equals Soul. Therefore, as Soul,
                > we can all share in the divine nature that
                > other Souls project. But, what about the
                > harm that Souls do to other Souls?
                >
                > Life is both a series of traps and tests.
                > We try to do what's best, or we deem
                > best, while limiting the negative effects
                > of what both the traps and tests have
                > upon us. Sometimes we create or cause
                > our own traps and tests and sometimes
                > others, or nature, does that for us. It's
                > hard to say how much "karma" or divine
                > nudges are involved with this experiment
                > of life. It's a mystery that we have to seek
                > to uncover for ourselves and with a little
                > help from our friends.
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
                > dianastanley wrote:
                >
                > The first people we look to for answers
                > is are parents. Then peers and teachers.
                > Always thinking some one must have
                > the answers to our questions. When
                > we become interested in finding God
                > we either follow are parents religion
                > or begin a search.
                >
                > I don't know how many books I read,
                > paths I followed until I discovered
                > that if you are in your house you
                > don't need a path to find it. The book
                > Quantum Consciousness by Steven
                > wolinsky started me on the journey
                > back to myself. I can say from experience
                > that following someone else is a lot
                > easier plus you have someone to blame
                > if it doesn't work out!!!!
                >
                > Diana
                >
                > prometheus wrote:
                > >
                > > Hello Etznab,
                > > Upon thinking about it
                > > I'd like to change a remark
                > > I made. I said, "But, people
                > > were never supposed to
                > > follow another." When I
                > > thought about this I saw
                > > that it was far from accurate.
                > >
                > > We started out being followers
                > > of stronger and more clever
                > > leaders and even in nature
                > > there are pecking orders. When
                > > we look at societies and clubs
                > > and organizations and political
                > > parties, sports teams, religions,
                > > etc. we can plainly see that humans
                > > tend to like, follow, and hold in
                > > higher esteem those stronger,
                > > faster, more skilled, smarter,
                > > knowledgable, or "spiritual"
                > > than themselves. Most of our
                > > opinions in these matters, of
                > > course, are subjective. And,
                > > they (we) tend to join groups
                > > of like minded people in order
                > > to feel good about ourselves.
                > > After all, 'Misery loves company;
                > > The more the merrier;' and, 'Might
                > > makes right!'
                > >
                > > But, unlike religion and other
                > > group endeavors, true "spirituality"
                > > is not a team sport or group effort.
                > > Eckists have been tricked into
                > > thinking that it is.
                > >
                > > Prometheus
                > >
                > > prometheus wrote:
                > >
                > > Hello Etznab,
                > >
                > > I agree, religions were never
                > > supposed to be. The spiritual
                > > is individualistic, personal and
                > > unique to each Soul.
                > >
                > > People tend to see their own
                > > short comings and failures
                > > while putting others upon
                > > pedestals. They need to admire
                > > and worship a leader due to
                > > their own guilt and shame
                > > and laziness. Doesn't it usually
                > > takes less effort and thought
                > > to be a follower? Plus, people
                > > need hope when they experience
                > > inequities in government and/
                > > or in life.
                > >
                > > But, people were never
                > > supposed to follow another.
                > > They were to learn some
                > > things from others but see
                > > the lessons in their own lives.
                > > They are supposed to see
                > > and learn from their own
                > > tests. However, there are
                > > always those that take advantage
                > > of the weak minded and of
                > > opportunities to trick people.
                > >
                > > Most of these preachers, like
                > > Klemp, try to rationalize, at
                > > times, and claim they are doing
                > > good. But they know the truth
                > > behind the smoke and mirrors.
                > > Klemp is a conman and not a
                > > godman. And, at the same time,
                > > he's making a lot of money and
                > > will never share how much it
                > > really is with his flock of sheep.
                > >
                > > Jesus, supposedly, said that the
                > > kingdom of heaven is within...
                > > and then they made another
                > > religion out of his teachings
                > > when he was merely sharing
                > > the truth he learned for himself.
                > >
                > > Once religions get their hooks
                > > into people it's for life. Look at
                > > Eckankar. Supposedly at the 7th
                > > initiation one is free to leave, but
                > > when you read a bit further you
                > > see that you can't because of the
                > > fear of what could happen to you
                > > or shouldn't because of more greatness
                > > to come. It's that push/pull technique
                > > that Twit shared in Letters to Gail 3.
                > >
                > > After awhile ECKists start believing
                > > their own hype and the timid become
                > > almost as arrogant and self absorbed
                > > as the narcissists. All become even
                > > more delusional as time goes by and
                > > then they pass it on to the next generation.
                > > What ECKists don't understand, and
                > > refuse to see, is that belief in Eckankar
                > > is the actual trap/test and a continuation
                > > of the Wheel of 84!
                > >
                > > Prometheus
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > etznab wrote:
                > >
                > > Was updating some files recently
                > > and came across an old link. I read
                > > this years ago, but today it has new
                > > meaning.
                > >
                > > Quoting:
                > >
                > > It has been my practice to listen to everybody, always. I desired to learn,
                > from
                > > the gardener, from the pariah, from the untouch able, from my neighbour,
                from
                > my
                > > friend, from everything that could teach, in order to become one with the
                > > Beloved. When I had listened to all, and gathered the Truth wher ever I
                found
                > > it, I was able to develop myself fully. Now you are waiting for the Truth to
                > > come - out of one person; you are waiting for that Truth to be developed, to
                > be
                > > forced upon you by authority, and you are worshipping that person instead of
                > the
                > > Truth. When Krishnamurti dies, which is inevitable, you will make a
                religion,
                > > you will set about forming rules in your minds, because the individual,
                > > Krishnamurti, has represented to you the Truth; so you will build a temple,
                > you
                > > will then begin to have ceremonies, to invent phrases.,dogmas, systems of
                > > beliefs, creeds, and to create philos ophies. If you build great foundations
                > > upon me, the individual, you will be caught in that house, in that temple,
                and
                > > so you will have to have another Teacher to come and extricate you from that
                > > temple, pull you out of that narrowness in order to liberate you; but the
                > human
                > > mind is such that you will build another temple round Him, and so it will go
                > on
                > > and on. But those who understand, who do not depend on authority, who hold
                all
                > > peoples in their hearts, will not build temples - they will really
                understand.
                > > [....]
                > >
                > > http://norea.net/krishnamurti/truth.htm
                > >
                > > Krishnamurti (IMO) was chosen (in his youth), groomed and propped up by the
                > > Theosophical Society to be some sort of "World Teacher". In the end, he
                > > apparently went his own way.
                > >
                > > "[....] His new direction reached a climax in 1929, when he rebuffed
                attempts
                > by
                > > Leadbeater and Besant to continue with the Order of the Star. Krishnamurti
                > > dissolved the Order during the annual Star Camp at Ommen, the Netherlands,
                on
                > 3
                > > August 1929[83] in front of Annie Besant, three thousand members, and a
                radio
                > > audience.[84] In the so-called Dissolution Speech, he stated that he made
                his
                > > decision after 'careful consideration' during the previous two years, ... .
                > > [....]"
                > >
                > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiddu_Krishnamurti#Break_with_the_past
                > >
                > > I thought some interesting things were mentioned in the first link about Who
                > > Brings the Truth? My impression was that Krishnamurti was breaking away from
                > > dogma built up around him by others and was asking people to find the truth
                > for
                > > themselves. Interesting that.
                > >
                > > Did Paul Twitchell, Darwin Gross or Harold Klemp do this for members and
                > > followers of Eckankar? Perhaps some of it in the wording of Eck teachings
                but,
                > > as the organization grew, so the "Mahanta" mythology also grew. Eventually
                > there
                > > would come a time (1980s) where people were asked (told?) to choose between
                > one
                > > person or another. Darwin or Harold, it seems. And this kind of thing is not
                > > unique to Eckankar.
                > > Other groups have fought over succession, or who was the rightful and
                > authentic
                > > "Teacher". I'm not only talking Shiite and Sunni.
                > >
                > > The symbol of "World Teacher" was something become popular during the 20th
                > > century (at least). The latter 1800s and early 1900s saw numbers of people
                who
                > > later contributed to "spiritual movements" in some way. Sant Mat and
                > Radhasoami
                > > evolved in parallel with other similar groups who looked to a form of
                > "Teacher".
                > > And though the titles appear to be different, the concept appears basically
                > the
                > > same. God's "so-called" representative on earth in the form of a single
                > person,
                > > guru, master, etc. Is this what the heart of the teachings held? Or
                something
                > > that so many people in a congregation created / made into a seemingly
                literal
                > > truth?
                > >
                > > I'm not sure Krishnamurti was describing himself as a "World Teacher".
                > > It sounded (to me) like he suggested "The Beloved" was in all people and
                > things.
                > > As a speaker, he reminded me about a number of other speakers that people
                had
                > > propped up as "this" or "that". And - much like them - Krishnamurti appeared
                > to
                > > say that "the truth was within".
                > >
                > > And so this is what it (Religion, New Age, etc.) appears to come down to, to
                > me.
                > > That the "Teacher" is defaulting to the "Student" for the ultimate truth.
                > >
                > > How ironic that people found all these teachings, and all these gurus, so in
                > the
                > > end they can be told NOT to follow them, but follow their own experience and
                > > inner guidance above all.
                > >
                > > Of course, it might help the followers if the teachers would admit to (and
                > > further clarify and correct) those elements of pseudo history / religion
                > > propagated by churches and groups. IMHO.
                > >
                > > Etznab
                > >
              • dianastanley43
                If women had always had the power that men have had, men would be calling for equal rights. Power is something people have a hard time letting go of. Men or
                Message 7 of 10 , Feb 3, 2011
                • 0 Attachment
                  If women had always had the power that men have had, men would be calling for equal rights. Power is something people have a hard time letting go of. Men or Women.
                  Diana

                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello Diana and All,
                  > One of the biggest lies, and
                  > fraud, is to say that women
                  > aren't equal to men. Eckankar
                  > contradicts itself and has a
                  > typical ekplanation as to why
                  > women can't be the LEM while
                  > being an EK Master like Kata Daki.
                  > Twitchell's negative atom/battery
                  > excuse is just more of the same
                  > we see in all manmade/male run
                  > religions.
                  >
                  > Supposedly, on the physical
                  > plane, the negative atom thing
                  > is the only reason why females
                  > can't be the LEM. This mysterious
                  > "fact" is what keeps women in
                  > their place as servants to the
                  > male LEM/Mahanta.
                  >
                  > It seems that every religion has
                  > some sort of myth, dogma, law,
                  > rule, excuse that has the same
                  > effect... to keep women in their
                  > place as second class citizens or
                  > members.
                  >
                  > On TV recently there was a show
                  > that shared things that were taken
                  > out of the Bible. Apparently there
                  > was a woman that came before Eve.
                  > Her name was Lillith and she was
                  > created by God the same as Adam.
                  > She was Adam's equal and this caused
                  > conflict. They were not to call God
                  > by his real name but she did and was
                  > taken up into heaven and didn't want
                  > to return. Anyway there's more to the
                  > story than that but apparently Adam
                  > asked for a woman that would be
                  > or lie beneath him. This is why Eve
                  > was created out of Adam's rib. The
                  > story about Lillith was taken out of
                  > the Bible because they (the church
                  > elders) didn't want women to think
                  > they were the equals to men.
                  >
                  > BTW- Eckankar believes this Garden
                  > of Eden Myth too. They say that the
                  > "Polarians" were the first race but
                  > Paul changed it up some and claims
                  > "ADOM" was the first man and "EDE"
                  > was the first woman. The inequality
                  > remains the same.
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                  >
                  > dianastanley wrote:
                  > Very true. I am of the opinion now
                  > that on a quantum level every atom
                  > has couniousness and it the same
                  > as every other atom. I am inclined
                  > to beleive that every soul is the same
                  > as every other soul. It is identifying
                  > with the body we are in that makes
                  > us feel speacial and different from
                  > others. When in fact there is no difference.
                  >
                  > Diana
                  >
                  > prometheus_973@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hello Diana,
                  > > IMO-It is true that we first look
                  > > to our parents as authority figures
                  > > and then to teachers and to the
                  > > clergy, etc.. We are also taught to
                  > > see others as authority figures
                  > > such as the police or others in
                  > > our social, religious, and political
                  > > hierarchies.
                  > >
                  > > I'm not so sure about "peers"
                  > > since we need to elevate people
                  > > to a status higher than ourselves.
                  > >
                  > > In college we had professors upon
                  > > pedestals, too, and then later when
                  > > I got to know some of these PH.Ds
                  > > and MDs on a personal level that
                  > > was corrected. The same takes place
                  > > within religion. Those deemed
                  > > "closer to God" or more "spiritual"
                  > > and knowledgable of the dogma
                  > > are held in high esteem, until, if
                  > > we're lucky we are able to see them
                  > > for what they are. At one time I had
                  > > certain ECKists upon pedestals and
                  > > as I learned more and had more clarity
                  > > of consciousness I saw through that
                  > > mindset and the error in that belief.
                  > >
                  > > There are always "experts" out there
                  > > and/or those for us to admire, but
                  > > that's the problem. We can use what
                  > > others give us but we have to be careful
                  > > with placing them above us.
                  > >
                  > > In Eckankar I was given one piece of
                  > > information, or a perspective, that
                  > > prepared me to see more clearly when
                  > > Ford came out with the truth about
                  > > Twitchell and the others including
                  > > Klemp. It was, "Soul equals Soul."
                  > >
                  > > Once we take everyone down off their
                  > > pedestals that we've placed them upon,
                  > > or they've placed themselves upon, then
                  > > we can start seeing them as being "peer."
                  > > But, this isn't what they want us to see,
                  > > nor what we, ourselves, desire either!
                  > >
                  > > Sure, many people have special talents
                  > > that either come naturally or with lots
                  > > of effort, but it still doesn't mean that
                  > > they are better than any of us. However,
                  > > one's ego wants and needs them to be
                  > > special and in control, plus, they like the
                  > > attention. For some people, even negative
                  > > attention is better than being ignored.
                  > > This is why some children act up. The
                  > > negative attention is better than none
                  > > at all.
                  > >
                  > > Klemp likes attention but not the
                  > > responsibilities he's created for himself.
                  > > This is why he never takes responsibility
                  > > on any level even though he is responsible
                  > > for all decisions made at and coming from
                  > > the ESC. Instead, Klemp hits the ball back
                  > > into the court of the Initiates under him.
                  > > It's always their fault and their responsibility
                  > > and not his. HK's above responsibility and
                  > > "is a law unto himself."
                  > >
                  > > But, if it wasn't for Darwin Gross Klemp
                  > > would either be a 7th or 8th initiate and still
                  > > be working at the ESC. He's nothing special.
                  > > But, now, he always has to let EKists know
                  > > who's in charge. He's always introduced, or
                  > > mentioning that he's the (14th Initiate) Mahanta/
                  > > LEM i.e. the ECK, the Godman. Then he says
                  > > I'm not perfect or I'm just like you and you
                  > > aren't to worship (me) the Mahanta. But,
                  > > when one is encouraged to have complete
                  > > reliance upon the Mahanta/God (Klemp) for
                  > > all things and to stare at his picture or to
                  > > dream about him, then, what does this really
                  > > say? I don't see a "Soul=Soul" or "I'm not
                  > > perfect" image being projected... just the
                  > > opposite!
                  > >
                  > > Anyway, this is the "trap" AND the "test"
                  > > that people go through. What we should
                  > > be doing is sharing this admiration and
                  > > high esteem with ourselves. Let's assume
                  > > that Soul equals Soul. Therefore, as Soul,
                  > > we can all share in the divine nature that
                  > > other Souls project. But, what about the
                  > > harm that Souls do to other Souls?
                  > >
                  > > Life is both a series of traps and tests.
                  > > We try to do what's best, or we deem
                  > > best, while limiting the negative effects
                  > > of what both the traps and tests have
                  > > upon us. Sometimes we create or cause
                  > > our own traps and tests and sometimes
                  > > others, or nature, does that for us. It's
                  > > hard to say how much "karma" or divine
                  > > nudges are involved with this experiment
                  > > of life. It's a mystery that we have to seek
                  > > to uncover for ourselves and with a little
                  > > help from our friends.
                  > >
                  > > Prometheus
                  > >
                  > > dianastanley wrote:
                  > >
                  > > The first people we look to for answers
                  > > is are parents. Then peers and teachers.
                  > > Always thinking some one must have
                  > > the answers to our questions. When
                  > > we become interested in finding God
                  > > we either follow are parents religion
                  > > or begin a search.
                  > >
                  > > I don't know how many books I read,
                  > > paths I followed until I discovered
                  > > that if you are in your house you
                  > > don't need a path to find it. The book
                  > > Quantum Consciousness by Steven
                  > > wolinsky started me on the journey
                  > > back to myself. I can say from experience
                  > > that following someone else is a lot
                  > > easier plus you have someone to blame
                  > > if it doesn't work out!!!!
                  > >
                  > > Diana
                  > >
                  > > prometheus wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Hello Etznab,
                  > > > Upon thinking about it
                  > > > I'd like to change a remark
                  > > > I made. I said, "But, people
                  > > > were never supposed to
                  > > > follow another." When I
                  > > > thought about this I saw
                  > > > that it was far from accurate.
                  > > >
                  > > > We started out being followers
                  > > > of stronger and more clever
                  > > > leaders and even in nature
                  > > > there are pecking orders. When
                  > > > we look at societies and clubs
                  > > > and organizations and political
                  > > > parties, sports teams, religions,
                  > > > etc. we can plainly see that humans
                  > > > tend to like, follow, and hold in
                  > > > higher esteem those stronger,
                  > > > faster, more skilled, smarter,
                  > > > knowledgable, or "spiritual"
                  > > > than themselves. Most of our
                  > > > opinions in these matters, of
                  > > > course, are subjective. And,
                  > > > they (we) tend to join groups
                  > > > of like minded people in order
                  > > > to feel good about ourselves.
                  > > > After all, 'Misery loves company;
                  > > > The more the merrier;' and, 'Might
                  > > > makes right!'
                  > > >
                  > > > But, unlike religion and other
                  > > > group endeavors, true "spirituality"
                  > > > is not a team sport or group effort.
                  > > > Eckists have been tricked into
                  > > > thinking that it is.
                  > > >
                  > > > Prometheus
                  > > >
                  > > > prometheus wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Hello Etznab,
                  > > >
                  > > > I agree, religions were never
                  > > > supposed to be. The spiritual
                  > > > is individualistic, personal and
                  > > > unique to each Soul.
                  > > >
                  > > > People tend to see their own
                  > > > short comings and failures
                  > > > while putting others upon
                  > > > pedestals. They need to admire
                  > > > and worship a leader due to
                  > > > their own guilt and shame
                  > > > and laziness. Doesn't it usually
                  > > > takes less effort and thought
                  > > > to be a follower? Plus, people
                  > > > need hope when they experience
                  > > > inequities in government and/
                  > > > or in life.
                  > > >
                  > > > But, people were never
                  > > > supposed to follow another.
                  > > > They were to learn some
                  > > > things from others but see
                  > > > the lessons in their own lives.
                  > > > They are supposed to see
                  > > > and learn from their own
                  > > > tests. However, there are
                  > > > always those that take advantage
                  > > > of the weak minded and of
                  > > > opportunities to trick people.
                  > > >
                  > > > Most of these preachers, like
                  > > > Klemp, try to rationalize, at
                  > > > times, and claim they are doing
                  > > > good. But they know the truth
                  > > > behind the smoke and mirrors.
                  > > > Klemp is a conman and not a
                  > > > godman. And, at the same time,
                  > > > he's making a lot of money and
                  > > > will never share how much it
                  > > > really is with his flock of sheep.
                  > > >
                  > > > Jesus, supposedly, said that the
                  > > > kingdom of heaven is within...
                  > > > and then they made another
                  > > > religion out of his teachings
                  > > > when he was merely sharing
                  > > > the truth he learned for himself.
                  > > >
                  > > > Once religions get their hooks
                  > > > into people it's for life. Look at
                  > > > Eckankar. Supposedly at the 7th
                  > > > initiation one is free to leave, but
                  > > > when you read a bit further you
                  > > > see that you can't because of the
                  > > > fear of what could happen to you
                  > > > or shouldn't because of more greatness
                  > > > to come. It's that push/pull technique
                  > > > that Twit shared in Letters to Gail 3.
                  > > >
                  > > > After awhile ECKists start believing
                  > > > their own hype and the timid become
                  > > > almost as arrogant and self absorbed
                  > > > as the narcissists. All become even
                  > > > more delusional as time goes by and
                  > > > then they pass it on to the next generation.
                  > > > What ECKists don't understand, and
                  > > > refuse to see, is that belief in Eckankar
                  > > > is the actual trap/test and a continuation
                  > > > of the Wheel of 84!
                  > > >
                  > > > Prometheus
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > etznab wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Was updating some files recently
                  > > > and came across an old link. I read
                  > > > this years ago, but today it has new
                  > > > meaning.
                  > > >
                  > > > Quoting:
                  > > >
                  > > > It has been my practice to listen to everybody, always. I desired to learn,
                  > > from
                  > > > the gardener, from the pariah, from the untouch able, from my neighbour,
                  > from
                  > > my
                  > > > friend, from everything that could teach, in order to become one with the
                  > > > Beloved. When I had listened to all, and gathered the Truth wher ever I
                  > found
                  > > > it, I was able to develop myself fully. Now you are waiting for the Truth to
                  > > > come - out of one person; you are waiting for that Truth to be developed, to
                  > > be
                  > > > forced upon you by authority, and you are worshipping that person instead of
                  > > the
                  > > > Truth. When Krishnamurti dies, which is inevitable, you will make a
                  > religion,
                  > > > you will set about forming rules in your minds, because the individual,
                  > > > Krishnamurti, has represented to you the Truth; so you will build a temple,
                  > > you
                  > > > will then begin to have ceremonies, to invent phrases.,dogmas, systems of
                  > > > beliefs, creeds, and to create philos ophies. If you build great foundations
                  > > > upon me, the individual, you will be caught in that house, in that temple,
                  > and
                  > > > so you will have to have another Teacher to come and extricate you from that
                  > > > temple, pull you out of that narrowness in order to liberate you; but the
                  > > human
                  > > > mind is such that you will build another temple round Him, and so it will go
                  > > on
                  > > > and on. But those who understand, who do not depend on authority, who hold
                  > all
                  > > > peoples in their hearts, will not build temples - they will really
                  > understand.
                  > > > [....]
                  > > >
                  > > > http://norea.net/krishnamurti/truth.htm
                  > > >
                  > > > Krishnamurti (IMO) was chosen (in his youth), groomed and propped up by the
                  > > > Theosophical Society to be some sort of "World Teacher". In the end, he
                  > > > apparently went his own way.
                  > > >
                  > > > "[....] His new direction reached a climax in 1929, when he rebuffed
                  > attempts
                  > > by
                  > > > Leadbeater and Besant to continue with the Order of the Star. Krishnamurti
                  > > > dissolved the Order during the annual Star Camp at Ommen, the Netherlands,
                  > on
                  > > 3
                  > > > August 1929[83] in front of Annie Besant, three thousand members, and a
                  > radio
                  > > > audience.[84] In the so-called Dissolution Speech, he stated that he made
                  > his
                  > > > decision after 'careful consideration' during the previous two years, ... .
                  > > > [....]"
                  > > >
                  > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiddu_Krishnamurti#Break_with_the_past
                  > > >
                  > > > I thought some interesting things were mentioned in the first link about Who
                  > > > Brings the Truth? My impression was that Krishnamurti was breaking away from
                  > > > dogma built up around him by others and was asking people to find the truth
                  > > for
                  > > > themselves. Interesting that.
                  > > >
                  > > > Did Paul Twitchell, Darwin Gross or Harold Klemp do this for members and
                  > > > followers of Eckankar? Perhaps some of it in the wording of Eck teachings
                  > but,
                  > > > as the organization grew, so the "Mahanta" mythology also grew. Eventually
                  > > there
                  > > > would come a time (1980s) where people were asked (told?) to choose between
                  > > one
                  > > > person or another. Darwin or Harold, it seems. And this kind of thing is not
                  > > > unique to Eckankar.
                  > > > Other groups have fought over succession, or who was the rightful and
                  > > authentic
                  > > > "Teacher". I'm not only talking Shiite and Sunni.
                  > > >
                  > > > The symbol of "World Teacher" was something become popular during the 20th
                  > > > century (at least). The latter 1800s and early 1900s saw numbers of people
                  > who
                  > > > later contributed to "spiritual movements" in some way. Sant Mat and
                  > > Radhasoami
                  > > > evolved in parallel with other similar groups who looked to a form of
                  > > "Teacher".
                  > > > And though the titles appear to be different, the concept appears basically
                  > > the
                  > > > same. God's "so-called" representative on earth in the form of a single
                  > > person,
                  > > > guru, master, etc. Is this what the heart of the teachings held? Or
                  > something
                  > > > that so many people in a congregation created / made into a seemingly
                  > literal
                  > > > truth?
                  > > >
                  > > > I'm not sure Krishnamurti was describing himself as a "World Teacher".
                  > > > It sounded (to me) like he suggested "The Beloved" was in all people and
                  > > things.
                  > > > As a speaker, he reminded me about a number of other speakers that people
                  > had
                  > > > propped up as "this" or "that". And - much like them - Krishnamurti appeared
                  > > to
                  > > > say that "the truth was within".
                  > > >
                  > > > And so this is what it (Religion, New Age, etc.) appears to come down to, to
                  > > me.
                  > > > That the "Teacher" is defaulting to the "Student" for the ultimate truth.
                  > > >
                  > > > How ironic that people found all these teachings, and all these gurus, so in
                  > > the
                  > > > end they can be told NOT to follow them, but follow their own experience and
                  > > > inner guidance above all.
                  > > >
                  > > > Of course, it might help the followers if the teachers would admit to (and
                  > > > further clarify and correct) those elements of pseudo history / religion
                  > > > propagated by churches and groups. IMHO.
                  > > >
                  > > > Etznab
                  > > >
                  >
                • prometheus_973
                  Hello Diana, Anytime one group or one person has all the power that always leads to more corruption and less freedom for all. Klemp has corrupted truth and has
                  Message 8 of 10 , Feb 6, 2011
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hello Diana,
                    Anytime one group or one person
                    has all the power that always leads
                    to more corruption and less freedom
                    for all. Klemp has corrupted truth
                    and has lessened the freedoms of
                    those followers who disagree with
                    his policies and who question the
                    ECK Dogma. Where's Rebazar? Where's
                    Spiritual Liberation in/for This Lifetime?
                    Where's Eckankar's financial statement
                    to show where ALL the money goes?

                    Prometheus


                    dianastanley43@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > If women had always had the power that men have had, men would be calling for equal rights. Power is something people have a hard time letting go of. Men or Women.
                    > Diana
                    >
                    prometheus_973@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hello Diana and All,
                    > > One of the biggest lies, and
                    > > fraud, is to say that women
                    > > aren't equal to men. Eckankar
                    > > contradicts itself and has a
                    > > typical ekplanation as to why
                    > > women can't be the LEM while
                    > > being an EK Master like Kata Daki.
                    > > Twitchell's negative atom/battery
                    > > excuse is just more of the same
                    > > we see in all manmade/male run
                    > > religions.
                    > >
                    > > Supposedly, on the physical
                    > > plane, the negative atom thing
                    > > is the only reason why females
                    > > can't be the LEM. This mysterious
                    > > "fact" is what keeps women in
                    > > their place as servants to the
                    > > male LEM/Mahanta.
                    > >
                    > > It seems that every religion has
                    > > some sort of myth, dogma, law,
                    > > rule, excuse that has the same
                    > > effect... to keep women in their
                    > > place as second class citizens or
                    > > members.
                    > >
                    > > On TV recently there was a show
                    > > that shared things that were taken
                    > > out of the Bible. Apparently there
                    > > was a woman that came before Eve.
                    > > Her name was Lillith and she was
                    > > created by God the same as Adam.
                    > > She was Adam's equal and this caused
                    > > conflict. They were not to call God
                    > > by his real name but she did and was
                    > > taken up into heaven and didn't want
                    > > to return. Anyway there's more to the
                    > > story than that but apparently Adam
                    > > asked for a woman that would be
                    > > or lie beneath him. This is why Eve
                    > > was created out of Adam's rib. The
                    > > story about Lillith was taken out of
                    > > the Bible because they (the church
                    > > elders) didn't want women to think
                    > > they were the equals to men.
                    > >
                    > > BTW- Eckankar believes this Garden
                    > > of Eden Myth too. They say that the
                    > > "Polarians" were the first race but
                    > > Paul changed it up some and claims
                    > > "ADOM" was the first man and "EDE"
                    > > was the first woman. The inequality
                    > > remains the same.
                    > >
                    > > Prometheus
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > dianastanley wrote:
                    > > Very true. I am of the opinion now
                    > > that on a quantum level every atom
                    > > has couniousness and it the same
                    > > as every other atom. I am inclined
                    > > to beleive that every soul is the same
                    > > as every other soul. It is identifying
                    > > with the body we are in that makes
                    > > us feel speacial and different from
                    > > others. When in fact there is no difference.
                    > >
                    > > Diana
                    > >
                    > > prometheus_973@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Hello Diana,
                    > > > IMO-It is true that we first look
                    > > > to our parents as authority figures
                    > > > and then to teachers and to the
                    > > > clergy, etc.. We are also taught to
                    > > > see others as authority figures
                    > > > such as the police or others in
                    > > > our social, religious, and political
                    > > > hierarchies.
                    > > >
                    > > > I'm not so sure about "peers"
                    > > > since we need to elevate people
                    > > > to a status higher than ourselves.
                    > > >
                    > > > In college we had professors upon
                    > > > pedestals, too, and then later when
                    > > > I got to know some of these PH.Ds
                    > > > and MDs on a personal level that
                    > > > was corrected. The same takes place
                    > > > within religion. Those deemed
                    > > > "closer to God" or more "spiritual"
                    > > > and knowledgable of the dogma
                    > > > are held in high esteem, until, if
                    > > > we're lucky we are able to see them
                    > > > for what they are. At one time I had
                    > > > certain ECKists upon pedestals and
                    > > > as I learned more and had more clarity
                    > > > of consciousness I saw through that
                    > > > mindset and the error in that belief.
                    > > >
                    > > > There are always "experts" out there
                    > > > and/or those for us to admire, but
                    > > > that's the problem. We can use what
                    > > > others give us but we have to be careful
                    > > > with placing them above us.
                    > > >
                    > > > In Eckankar I was given one piece of
                    > > > information, or a perspective, that
                    > > > prepared me to see more clearly when
                    > > > Ford came out with the truth about
                    > > > Twitchell and the others including
                    > > > Klemp. It was, "Soul equals Soul."
                    > > >
                    > > > Once we take everyone down off their
                    > > > pedestals that we've placed them upon,
                    > > > or they've placed themselves upon, then
                    > > > we can start seeing them as being "peer."
                    > > > But, this isn't what they want us to see,
                    > > > nor what we, ourselves, desire either!
                    > > >
                    > > > Sure, many people have special talents
                    > > > that either come naturally or with lots
                    > > > of effort, but it still doesn't mean that
                    > > > they are better than any of us. However,
                    > > > one's ego wants and needs them to be
                    > > > special and in control, plus, they like the
                    > > > attention. For some people, even negative
                    > > > attention is better than being ignored.
                    > > > This is why some children act up. The
                    > > > negative attention is better than none
                    > > > at all.
                    > > >
                    > > > Klemp likes attention but not the
                    > > > responsibilities he's created for himself.
                    > > > This is why he never takes responsibility
                    > > > on any level even though he is responsible
                    > > > for all decisions made at and coming from
                    > > > the ESC. Instead, Klemp hits the ball back
                    > > > into the court of the Initiates under him.
                    > > > It's always their fault and their responsibility
                    > > > and not his. HK's above responsibility and
                    > > > "is a law unto himself."
                    > > >
                    > > > But, if it wasn't for Darwin Gross Klemp
                    > > > would either be a 7th or 8th initiate and still
                    > > > be working at the ESC. He's nothing special.
                    > > > But, now, he always has to let EKists know
                    > > > who's in charge. He's always introduced, or
                    > > > mentioning that he's the (14th Initiate) Mahanta/
                    > > > LEM i.e. the ECK, the Godman. Then he says
                    > > > I'm not perfect or I'm just like you and you
                    > > > aren't to worship (me) the Mahanta. But,
                    > > > when one is encouraged to have complete
                    > > > reliance upon the Mahanta/God (Klemp) for
                    > > > all things and to stare at his picture or to
                    > > > dream about him, then, what does this really
                    > > > say? I don't see a "Soul=Soul" or "I'm not
                    > > > perfect" image being projected... just the
                    > > > opposite!
                    > > >
                    > > > Anyway, this is the "trap" AND the "test"
                    > > > that people go through. What we should
                    > > > be doing is sharing this admiration and
                    > > > high esteem with ourselves. Let's assume
                    > > > that Soul equals Soul. Therefore, as Soul,
                    > > > we can all share in the divine nature that
                    > > > other Souls project. But, what about the
                    > > > harm that Souls do to other Souls?
                    > > >
                    > > > Life is both a series of traps and tests.
                    > > > We try to do what's best, or we deem
                    > > > best, while limiting the negative effects
                    > > > of what both the traps and tests have
                    > > > upon us. Sometimes we create or cause
                    > > > our own traps and tests and sometimes
                    > > > others, or nature, does that for us. It's
                    > > > hard to say how much "karma" or divine
                    > > > nudges are involved with this experiment
                    > > > of life. It's a mystery that we have to seek
                    > > > to uncover for ourselves and with a little
                    > > > help from our friends.
                    > > >
                    > > > Prometheus
                    > > >
                    > > > dianastanley wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > The first people we look to for answers
                    > > > is are parents. Then peers and teachers.
                    > > > Always thinking some one must have
                    > > > the answers to our questions. When
                    > > > we become interested in finding God
                    > > > we either follow are parents religion
                    > > > or begin a search.
                    > > >
                    > > > I don't know how many books I read,
                    > > > paths I followed until I discovered
                    > > > that if you are in your house you
                    > > > don't need a path to find it. The book
                    > > > Quantum Consciousness by Steven
                    > > > wolinsky started me on the journey
                    > > > back to myself. I can say from experience
                    > > > that following someone else is a lot
                    > > > easier plus you have someone to blame
                    > > > if it doesn't work out!!!!
                    > > >
                    > > > Diana
                    > > >
                    > > > prometheus wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Hello Etznab,
                    > > > > Upon thinking about it
                    > > > > I'd like to change a remark
                    > > > > I made. I said, "But, people
                    > > > > were never supposed to
                    > > > > follow another." When I
                    > > > > thought about this I saw
                    > > > > that it was far from accurate.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > We started out being followers
                    > > > > of stronger and more clever
                    > > > > leaders and even in nature
                    > > > > there are pecking orders. When
                    > > > > we look at societies and clubs
                    > > > > and organizations and political
                    > > > > parties, sports teams, religions,
                    > > > > etc. we can plainly see that humans
                    > > > > tend to like, follow, and hold in
                    > > > > higher esteem those stronger,
                    > > > > faster, more skilled, smarter,
                    > > > > knowledgable, or "spiritual"
                    > > > > than themselves. Most of our
                    > > > > opinions in these matters, of
                    > > > > course, are subjective. And,
                    > > > > they (we) tend to join groups
                    > > > > of like minded people in order
                    > > > > to feel good about ourselves.
                    > > > > After all, 'Misery loves company;
                    > > > > The more the merrier;' and, 'Might
                    > > > > makes right!'
                    > > > >
                    > > > > But, unlike religion and other
                    > > > > group endeavors, true "spirituality"
                    > > > > is not a team sport or group effort.
                    > > > > Eckists have been tricked into
                    > > > > thinking that it is.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Prometheus
                    > > > >
                    > > > > prometheus wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Hello Etznab,
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I agree, religions were never
                    > > > > supposed to be. The spiritual
                    > > > > is individualistic, personal and
                    > > > > unique to each Soul.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > People tend to see their own
                    > > > > short comings and failures
                    > > > > while putting others upon
                    > > > > pedestals. They need to admire
                    > > > > and worship a leader due to
                    > > > > their own guilt and shame
                    > > > > and laziness. Doesn't it usually
                    > > > > takes less effort and thought
                    > > > > to be a follower? Plus, people
                    > > > > need hope when they experience
                    > > > > inequities in government and/
                    > > > > or in life.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > But, people were never
                    > > > > supposed to follow another.
                    > > > > They were to learn some
                    > > > > things from others but see
                    > > > > the lessons in their own lives.
                    > > > > They are supposed to see
                    > > > > and learn from their own
                    > > > > tests. However, there are
                    > > > > always those that take advantage
                    > > > > of the weak minded and of
                    > > > > opportunities to trick people.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Most of these preachers, like
                    > > > > Klemp, try to rationalize, at
                    > > > > times, and claim they are doing
                    > > > > good. But they know the truth
                    > > > > behind the smoke and mirrors.
                    > > > > Klemp is a conman and not a
                    > > > > godman. And, at the same time,
                    > > > > he's making a lot of money and
                    > > > > will never share how much it
                    > > > > really is with his flock of sheep.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Jesus, supposedly, said that the
                    > > > > kingdom of heaven is within...
                    > > > > and then they made another
                    > > > > religion out of his teachings
                    > > > > when he was merely sharing
                    > > > > the truth he learned for himself.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Once religions get their hooks
                    > > > > into people it's for life. Look at
                    > > > > Eckankar. Supposedly at the 7th
                    > > > > initiation one is free to leave, but
                    > > > > when you read a bit further you
                    > > > > see that you can't because of the
                    > > > > fear of what could happen to you
                    > > > > or shouldn't because of more greatness
                    > > > > to come. It's that push/pull technique
                    > > > > that Twit shared in Letters to Gail 3.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > After awhile ECKists start believing
                    > > > > their own hype and the timid become
                    > > > > almost as arrogant and self absorbed
                    > > > > as the narcissists. All become even
                    > > > > more delusional as time goes by and
                    > > > > then they pass it on to the next generation.
                    > > > > What ECKists don't understand, and
                    > > > > refuse to see, is that belief in Eckankar
                    > > > > is the actual trap/test and a continuation
                    > > > > of the Wheel of 84!
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Prometheus
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > etznab wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Was updating some files recently
                    > > > > and came across an old link. I read
                    > > > > this years ago, but today it has new
                    > > > > meaning.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Quoting:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > It has been my practice to listen to everybody, always. I desired to learn,
                    > > > from
                    > > > > the gardener, from the pariah, from the untouch able, from my neighbour,
                    > > from
                    > > > my
                    > > > > friend, from everything that could teach, in order to become one with the
                    > > > > Beloved. When I had listened to all, and gathered the Truth wher ever I
                    > > found
                    > > > > it, I was able to develop myself fully. Now you are waiting for the Truth to
                    > > > > come - out of one person; you are waiting for that Truth to be developed, to
                    > > > be
                    > > > > forced upon you by authority, and you are worshipping that person instead of
                    > > > the
                    > > > > Truth. When Krishnamurti dies, which is inevitable, you will make a
                    > > religion,
                    > > > > you will set about forming rules in your minds, because the individual,
                    > > > > Krishnamurti, has represented to you the Truth; so you will build a temple,
                    > > > you
                    > > > > will then begin to have ceremonies, to invent phrases.,dogmas, systems of
                    > > > > beliefs, creeds, and to create philos ophies. If you build great foundations
                    > > > > upon me, the individual, you will be caught in that house, in that temple,
                    > > and
                    > > > > so you will have to have another Teacher to come and extricate you from that
                    > > > > temple, pull you out of that narrowness in order to liberate you; but the
                    > > > human
                    > > > > mind is such that you will build another temple round Him, and so it will go
                    > > > on
                    > > > > and on. But those who understand, who do not depend on authority, who hold
                    > > all
                    > > > > peoples in their hearts, will not build temples - they will really
                    > > understand.
                    > > > > [....]
                    > > > >
                    > > > > http://norea.net/krishnamurti/truth.htm
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Krishnamurti (IMO) was chosen (in his youth), groomed and propped up by the
                    > > > > Theosophical Society to be some sort of "World Teacher". In the end, he
                    > > > > apparently went his own way.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > "[....] His new direction reached a climax in 1929, when he rebuffed
                    > > attempts
                    > > > by
                    > > > > Leadbeater and Besant to continue with the Order of the Star. Krishnamurti
                    > > > > dissolved the Order during the annual Star Camp at Ommen, the Netherlands,
                    > > on
                    > > > 3
                    > > > > August 1929[83] in front of Annie Besant, three thousand members, and a
                    > > radio
                    > > > > audience.[84] In the so-called Dissolution Speech, he stated that he made
                    > > his
                    > > > > decision after 'careful consideration' during the previous two years, ... .
                    > > > > [....]"
                    > > > >
                    > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiddu_Krishnamurti#Break_with_the_past
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I thought some interesting things were mentioned in the first link about Who
                    > > > > Brings the Truth? My impression was that Krishnamurti was breaking away from
                    > > > > dogma built up around him by others and was asking people to find the truth
                    > > > for
                    > > > > themselves. Interesting that.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Did Paul Twitchell, Darwin Gross or Harold Klemp do this for members and
                    > > > > followers of Eckankar? Perhaps some of it in the wording of Eck teachings
                    > > but,
                    > > > > as the organization grew, so the "Mahanta" mythology also grew. Eventually
                    > > > there
                    > > > > would come a time (1980s) where people were asked (told?) to choose between
                    > > > one
                    > > > > person or another. Darwin or Harold, it seems. And this kind of thing is not
                    > > > > unique to Eckankar.
                    > > > > Other groups have fought over succession, or who was the rightful and
                    > > > authentic
                    > > > > "Teacher". I'm not only talking Shiite and Sunni.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > The symbol of "World Teacher" was something become popular during the 20th
                    > > > > century (at least). The latter 1800s and early 1900s saw numbers of people
                    > > who
                    > > > > later contributed to "spiritual movements" in some way. Sant Mat and
                    > > > Radhasoami
                    > > > > evolved in parallel with other similar groups who looked to a form of
                    > > > "Teacher".
                    > > > > And though the titles appear to be different, the concept appears basically
                    > > > the
                    > > > > same. God's "so-called" representative on earth in the form of a single
                    > > > person,
                    > > > > guru, master, etc. Is this what the heart of the teachings held? Or
                    > > something
                    > > > > that so many people in a congregation created / made into a seemingly
                    > > literal
                    > > > > truth?
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I'm not sure Krishnamurti was describing himself as a "World Teacher".
                    > > > > It sounded (to me) like he suggested "The Beloved" was in all people and
                    > > > things.
                    > > > > As a speaker, he reminded me about a number of other speakers that people
                    > > had
                    > > > > propped up as "this" or "that". And - much like them - Krishnamurti appeared
                    > > > to
                    > > > > say that "the truth was within".
                    > > > >
                    > > > > And so this is what it (Religion, New Age, etc.) appears to come down to, to
                    > > > me.
                    > > > > That the "Teacher" is defaulting to the "Student" for the ultimate truth.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > How ironic that people found all these teachings, and all these gurus, so in
                    > > > the
                    > > > > end they can be told NOT to follow them, but follow their own experience and
                    > > > > inner guidance above all.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Of course, it might help the followers if the teachers would admit to (and
                    > > > > further clarify and correct) those elements of pseudo history / religion
                    > > > > propagated by churches and groups. IMHO.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Etznab
                    > > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • dianastanley43
                    All religions or paths have the same dynamics. One person who has the anwser to how to find God or at least Please him. They are all based on reward or
                    Message 9 of 10 , Feb 7, 2011
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                      All religions or paths have the same dynamics. One person who has the anwser to how to find God or at least Please him. They are all based on reward or punishment. If not in this life then the next.
                      What made me so angry and dissapointed was I thought Eckankar was different. A lot older and wiser I now know that no one has the answer to anything. There is no answer because there can be no question. Everything is everything. That which is Is. Iam That.
                      Diana--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hello Diana,
                      > Anytime one group or one person
                      > has all the power that always leads
                      > to more corruption and less freedom
                      > for all. Klemp has corrupted truth
                      > and has lessened the freedoms of
                      > those followers who disagree with
                      > his policies and who question the
                      > ECK Dogma. Where's Rebazar? Where's
                      > Spiritual Liberation in/for This Lifetime?
                      > Where's Eckankar's financial statement
                      > to show where ALL the money goes?
                      >
                      > Prometheus
                      >
                      >
                      > dianastanley43@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > If women had always had the power that men have had, men would be calling for equal rights. Power is something people have a hard time letting go of. Men or Women.
                      > > Diana
                      > >
                      > prometheus_973@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Hello Diana and All,
                      > > > One of the biggest lies, and
                      > > > fraud, is to say that women
                      > > > aren't equal to men. Eckankar
                      > > > contradicts itself and has a
                      > > > typical ekplanation as to why
                      > > > women can't be the LEM while
                      > > > being an EK Master like Kata Daki.
                      > > > Twitchell's negative atom/battery
                      > > > excuse is just more of the same
                      > > > we see in all manmade/male run
                      > > > religions.
                      > > >
                      > > > Supposedly, on the physical
                      > > > plane, the negative atom thing
                      > > > is the only reason why females
                      > > > can't be the LEM. This mysterious
                      > > > "fact" is what keeps women in
                      > > > their place as servants to the
                      > > > male LEM/Mahanta.
                      > > >
                      > > > It seems that every religion has
                      > > > some sort of myth, dogma, law,
                      > > > rule, excuse that has the same
                      > > > effect... to keep women in their
                      > > > place as second class citizens or
                      > > > members.
                      > > >
                      > > > On TV recently there was a show
                      > > > that shared things that were taken
                      > > > out of the Bible. Apparently there
                      > > > was a woman that came before Eve.
                      > > > Her name was Lillith and she was
                      > > > created by God the same as Adam.
                      > > > She was Adam's equal and this caused
                      > > > conflict. They were not to call God
                      > > > by his real name but she did and was
                      > > > taken up into heaven and didn't want
                      > > > to return. Anyway there's more to the
                      > > > story than that but apparently Adam
                      > > > asked for a woman that would be
                      > > > or lie beneath him. This is why Eve
                      > > > was created out of Adam's rib. The
                      > > > story about Lillith was taken out of
                      > > > the Bible because they (the church
                      > > > elders) didn't want women to think
                      > > > they were the equals to men.
                      > > >
                      > > > BTW- Eckankar believes this Garden
                      > > > of Eden Myth too. They say that the
                      > > > "Polarians" were the first race but
                      > > > Paul changed it up some and claims
                      > > > "ADOM" was the first man and "EDE"
                      > > > was the first woman. The inequality
                      > > > remains the same.
                      > > >
                      > > > Prometheus
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > dianastanley wrote:
                      > > > Very true. I am of the opinion now
                      > > > that on a quantum level every atom
                      > > > has couniousness and it the same
                      > > > as every other atom. I am inclined
                      > > > to beleive that every soul is the same
                      > > > as every other soul. It is identifying
                      > > > with the body we are in that makes
                      > > > us feel speacial and different from
                      > > > others. When in fact there is no difference.
                      > > >
                      > > > Diana
                      > > >
                      > > > prometheus_973@> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Hello Diana,
                      > > > > IMO-It is true that we first look
                      > > > > to our parents as authority figures
                      > > > > and then to teachers and to the
                      > > > > clergy, etc.. We are also taught to
                      > > > > see others as authority figures
                      > > > > such as the police or others in
                      > > > > our social, religious, and political
                      > > > > hierarchies.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I'm not so sure about "peers"
                      > > > > since we need to elevate people
                      > > > > to a status higher than ourselves.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > In college we had professors upon
                      > > > > pedestals, too, and then later when
                      > > > > I got to know some of these PH.Ds
                      > > > > and MDs on a personal level that
                      > > > > was corrected. The same takes place
                      > > > > within religion. Those deemed
                      > > > > "closer to God" or more "spiritual"
                      > > > > and knowledgable of the dogma
                      > > > > are held in high esteem, until, if
                      > > > > we're lucky we are able to see them
                      > > > > for what they are. At one time I had
                      > > > > certain ECKists upon pedestals and
                      > > > > as I learned more and had more clarity
                      > > > > of consciousness I saw through that
                      > > > > mindset and the error in that belief.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > There are always "experts" out there
                      > > > > and/or those for us to admire, but
                      > > > > that's the problem. We can use what
                      > > > > others give us but we have to be careful
                      > > > > with placing them above us.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > In Eckankar I was given one piece of
                      > > > > information, or a perspective, that
                      > > > > prepared me to see more clearly when
                      > > > > Ford came out with the truth about
                      > > > > Twitchell and the others including
                      > > > > Klemp. It was, "Soul equals Soul."
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Once we take everyone down off their
                      > > > > pedestals that we've placed them upon,
                      > > > > or they've placed themselves upon, then
                      > > > > we can start seeing them as being "peer."
                      > > > > But, this isn't what they want us to see,
                      > > > > nor what we, ourselves, desire either!
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Sure, many people have special talents
                      > > > > that either come naturally or with lots
                      > > > > of effort, but it still doesn't mean that
                      > > > > they are better than any of us. However,
                      > > > > one's ego wants and needs them to be
                      > > > > special and in control, plus, they like the
                      > > > > attention. For some people, even negative
                      > > > > attention is better than being ignored.
                      > > > > This is why some children act up. The
                      > > > > negative attention is better than none
                      > > > > at all.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Klemp likes attention but not the
                      > > > > responsibilities he's created for himself.
                      > > > > This is why he never takes responsibility
                      > > > > on any level even though he is responsible
                      > > > > for all decisions made at and coming from
                      > > > > the ESC. Instead, Klemp hits the ball back
                      > > > > into the court of the Initiates under him.
                      > > > > It's always their fault and their responsibility
                      > > > > and not his. HK's above responsibility and
                      > > > > "is a law unto himself."
                      > > > >
                      > > > > But, if it wasn't for Darwin Gross Klemp
                      > > > > would either be a 7th or 8th initiate and still
                      > > > > be working at the ESC. He's nothing special.
                      > > > > But, now, he always has to let EKists know
                      > > > > who's in charge. He's always introduced, or
                      > > > > mentioning that he's the (14th Initiate) Mahanta/
                      > > > > LEM i.e. the ECK, the Godman. Then he says
                      > > > > I'm not perfect or I'm just like you and you
                      > > > > aren't to worship (me) the Mahanta. But,
                      > > > > when one is encouraged to have complete
                      > > > > reliance upon the Mahanta/God (Klemp) for
                      > > > > all things and to stare at his picture or to
                      > > > > dream about him, then, what does this really
                      > > > > say? I don't see a "Soul=Soul" or "I'm not
                      > > > > perfect" image being projected... just the
                      > > > > opposite!
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Anyway, this is the "trap" AND the "test"
                      > > > > that people go through. What we should
                      > > > > be doing is sharing this admiration and
                      > > > > high esteem with ourselves. Let's assume
                      > > > > that Soul equals Soul. Therefore, as Soul,
                      > > > > we can all share in the divine nature that
                      > > > > other Souls project. But, what about the
                      > > > > harm that Souls do to other Souls?
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Life is both a series of traps and tests.
                      > > > > We try to do what's best, or we deem
                      > > > > best, while limiting the negative effects
                      > > > > of what both the traps and tests have
                      > > > > upon us. Sometimes we create or cause
                      > > > > our own traps and tests and sometimes
                      > > > > others, or nature, does that for us. It's
                      > > > > hard to say how much "karma" or divine
                      > > > > nudges are involved with this experiment
                      > > > > of life. It's a mystery that we have to seek
                      > > > > to uncover for ourselves and with a little
                      > > > > help from our friends.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Prometheus
                      > > > >
                      > > > > dianastanley wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > The first people we look to for answers
                      > > > > is are parents. Then peers and teachers.
                      > > > > Always thinking some one must have
                      > > > > the answers to our questions. When
                      > > > > we become interested in finding God
                      > > > > we either follow are parents religion
                      > > > > or begin a search.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I don't know how many books I read,
                      > > > > paths I followed until I discovered
                      > > > > that if you are in your house you
                      > > > > don't need a path to find it. The book
                      > > > > Quantum Consciousness by Steven
                      > > > > wolinsky started me on the journey
                      > > > > back to myself. I can say from experience
                      > > > > that following someone else is a lot
                      > > > > easier plus you have someone to blame
                      > > > > if it doesn't work out!!!!
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Diana
                      > > > >
                      > > > > prometheus wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Hello Etznab,
                      > > > > > Upon thinking about it
                      > > > > > I'd like to change a remark
                      > > > > > I made. I said, "But, people
                      > > > > > were never supposed to
                      > > > > > follow another." When I
                      > > > > > thought about this I saw
                      > > > > > that it was far from accurate.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > We started out being followers
                      > > > > > of stronger and more clever
                      > > > > > leaders and even in nature
                      > > > > > there are pecking orders. When
                      > > > > > we look at societies and clubs
                      > > > > > and organizations and political
                      > > > > > parties, sports teams, religions,
                      > > > > > etc. we can plainly see that humans
                      > > > > > tend to like, follow, and hold in
                      > > > > > higher esteem those stronger,
                      > > > > > faster, more skilled, smarter,
                      > > > > > knowledgable, or "spiritual"
                      > > > > > than themselves. Most of our
                      > > > > > opinions in these matters, of
                      > > > > > course, are subjective. And,
                      > > > > > they (we) tend to join groups
                      > > > > > of like minded people in order
                      > > > > > to feel good about ourselves.
                      > > > > > After all, 'Misery loves company;
                      > > > > > The more the merrier;' and, 'Might
                      > > > > > makes right!'
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > But, unlike religion and other
                      > > > > > group endeavors, true "spirituality"
                      > > > > > is not a team sport or group effort.
                      > > > > > Eckists have been tricked into
                      > > > > > thinking that it is.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Prometheus
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > prometheus wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Hello Etznab,
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > I agree, religions were never
                      > > > > > supposed to be. The spiritual
                      > > > > > is individualistic, personal and
                      > > > > > unique to each Soul.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > People tend to see their own
                      > > > > > short comings and failures
                      > > > > > while putting others upon
                      > > > > > pedestals. They need to admire
                      > > > > > and worship a leader due to
                      > > > > > their own guilt and shame
                      > > > > > and laziness. Doesn't it usually
                      > > > > > takes less effort and thought
                      > > > > > to be a follower? Plus, people
                      > > > > > need hope when they experience
                      > > > > > inequities in government and/
                      > > > > > or in life.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > But, people were never
                      > > > > > supposed to follow another.
                      > > > > > They were to learn some
                      > > > > > things from others but see
                      > > > > > the lessons in their own lives.
                      > > > > > They are supposed to see
                      > > > > > and learn from their own
                      > > > > > tests. However, there are
                      > > > > > always those that take advantage
                      > > > > > of the weak minded and of
                      > > > > > opportunities to trick people.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Most of these preachers, like
                      > > > > > Klemp, try to rationalize, at
                      > > > > > times, and claim they are doing
                      > > > > > good. But they know the truth
                      > > > > > behind the smoke and mirrors.
                      > > > > > Klemp is a conman and not a
                      > > > > > godman. And, at the same time,
                      > > > > > he's making a lot of money and
                      > > > > > will never share how much it
                      > > > > > really is with his flock of sheep.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Jesus, supposedly, said that the
                      > > > > > kingdom of heaven is within...
                      > > > > > and then they made another
                      > > > > > religion out of his teachings
                      > > > > > when he was merely sharing
                      > > > > > the truth he learned for himself.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Once religions get their hooks
                      > > > > > into people it's for life. Look at
                      > > > > > Eckankar. Supposedly at the 7th
                      > > > > > initiation one is free to leave, but
                      > > > > > when you read a bit further you
                      > > > > > see that you can't because of the
                      > > > > > fear of what could happen to you
                      > > > > > or shouldn't because of more greatness
                      > > > > > to come. It's that push/pull technique
                      > > > > > that Twit shared in Letters to Gail 3.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > After awhile ECKists start believing
                      > > > > > their own hype and the timid become
                      > > > > > almost as arrogant and self absorbed
                      > > > > > as the narcissists. All become even
                      > > > > > more delusional as time goes by and
                      > > > > > then they pass it on to the next generation.
                      > > > > > What ECKists don't understand, and
                      > > > > > refuse to see, is that belief in Eckankar
                      > > > > > is the actual trap/test and a continuation
                      > > > > > of the Wheel of 84!
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Prometheus
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > etznab wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Was updating some files recently
                      > > > > > and came across an old link. I read
                      > > > > > this years ago, but today it has new
                      > > > > > meaning.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Quoting:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > It has been my practice to listen to everybody, always. I desired to learn,
                      > > > > from
                      > > > > > the gardener, from the pariah, from the untouch able, from my neighbour,
                      > > > from
                      > > > > my
                      > > > > > friend, from everything that could teach, in order to become one with the
                      > > > > > Beloved. When I had listened to all, and gathered the Truth wher ever I
                      > > > found
                      > > > > > it, I was able to develop myself fully. Now you are waiting for the Truth to
                      > > > > > come - out of one person; you are waiting for that Truth to be developed, to
                      > > > > be
                      > > > > > forced upon you by authority, and you are worshipping that person instead of
                      > > > > the
                      > > > > > Truth. When Krishnamurti dies, which is inevitable, you will make a
                      > > > religion,
                      > > > > > you will set about forming rules in your minds, because the individual,
                      > > > > > Krishnamurti, has represented to you the Truth; so you will build a temple,
                      > > > > you
                      > > > > > will then begin to have ceremonies, to invent phrases.,dogmas, systems of
                      > > > > > beliefs, creeds, and to create philos ophies. If you build great foundations
                      > > > > > upon me, the individual, you will be caught in that house, in that temple,
                      > > > and
                      > > > > > so you will have to have another Teacher to come and extricate you from that
                      > > > > > temple, pull you out of that narrowness in order to liberate you; but the
                      > > > > human
                      > > > > > mind is such that you will build another temple round Him, and so it will go
                      > > > > on
                      > > > > > and on. But those who understand, who do not depend on authority, who hold
                      > > > all
                      > > > > > peoples in their hearts, will not build temples - they will really
                      > > > understand.
                      > > > > > [....]
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > http://norea.net/krishnamurti/truth.htm
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Krishnamurti (IMO) was chosen (in his youth), groomed and propped up by the
                      > > > > > Theosophical Society to be some sort of "World Teacher". In the end, he
                      > > > > > apparently went his own way.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > "[....] His new direction reached a climax in 1929, when he rebuffed
                      > > > attempts
                      > > > > by
                      > > > > > Leadbeater and Besant to continue with the Order of the Star. Krishnamurti
                      > > > > > dissolved the Order during the annual Star Camp at Ommen, the Netherlands,
                      > > > on
                      > > > > 3
                      > > > > > August 1929[83] in front of Annie Besant, three thousand members, and a
                      > > > radio
                      > > > > > audience.[84] In the so-called Dissolution Speech, he stated that he made
                      > > > his
                      > > > > > decision after 'careful consideration' during the previous two years, ... .
                      > > > > > [....]"
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiddu_Krishnamurti#Break_with_the_past
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > I thought some interesting things were mentioned in the first link about Who
                      > > > > > Brings the Truth? My impression was that Krishnamurti was breaking away from
                      > > > > > dogma built up around him by others and was asking people to find the truth
                      > > > > for
                      > > > > > themselves. Interesting that.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Did Paul Twitchell, Darwin Gross or Harold Klemp do this for members and
                      > > > > > followers of Eckankar? Perhaps some of it in the wording of Eck teachings
                      > > > but,
                      > > > > > as the organization grew, so the "Mahanta" mythology also grew. Eventually
                      > > > > there
                      > > > > > would come a time (1980s) where people were asked (told?) to choose between
                      > > > > one
                      > > > > > person or another. Darwin or Harold, it seems. And this kind of thing is not
                      > > > > > unique to Eckankar.
                      > > > > > Other groups have fought over succession, or who was the rightful and
                      > > > > authentic
                      > > > > > "Teacher". I'm not only talking Shiite and Sunni.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > The symbol of "World Teacher" was something become popular during the 20th
                      > > > > > century (at least). The latter 1800s and early 1900s saw numbers of people
                      > > > who
                      > > > > > later contributed to "spiritual movements" in some way. Sant Mat and
                      > > > > Radhasoami
                      > > > > > evolved in parallel with other similar groups who looked to a form of
                      > > > > "Teacher".
                      > > > > > And though the titles appear to be different, the concept appears basically
                      > > > > the
                      > > > > > same. God's "so-called" representative on earth in the form of a single
                      > > > > person,
                      > > > > > guru, master, etc. Is this what the heart of the teachings held? Or
                      > > > something
                      > > > > > that so many people in a congregation created / made into a seemingly
                      > > > literal
                      > > > > > truth?
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > I'm not sure Krishnamurti was describing himself as a "World Teacher".
                      > > > > > It sounded (to me) like he suggested "The Beloved" was in all people and
                      > > > > things.
                      > > > > > As a speaker, he reminded me about a number of other speakers that people
                      > > > had
                      > > > > > propped up as "this" or "that". And - much like them - Krishnamurti appeared
                      > > > > to
                      > > > > > say that "the truth was within".
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > And so this is what it (Religion, New Age, etc.) appears to come down to, to
                      > > > > me.
                      > > > > > That the "Teacher" is defaulting to the "Student" for the ultimate truth.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > How ironic that people found all these teachings, and all these gurus, so in
                      > > > > the
                      > > > > > end they can be told NOT to follow them, but follow their own experience and
                      > > > > > inner guidance above all.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Of course, it might help the followers if the teachers would admit to (and
                      > > > > > further clarify and correct) those elements of pseudo history / religion
                      > > > > > propagated by churches and groups. IMHO.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Etznab
                      > > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
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