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Ask the Master - December/2010 The Mystic World

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  • prometheus_973
    Q: As an ECK Leader, I sometimes have Questions about the Guidelines or How to apply them in My Given Area of Responsibility. Where do I go with my questions?
    Message 1 of 7 , Jan 26, 2011
      Q: "As an ECK Leader, I sometimes
      have Questions about the Guidelines
      or How to apply them in My Given
      Area of Responsibility.

      Where do I go with my questions?

      I want to do the very best I can,
      BUT I'm Afraid of making a mistake."
      [my caps]



      ME: Well, that's an easy one!
      But I do see your fear with displeasing
      certain RESAs. Many, like Klemp,
      also hold onto the past. First, it's
      always good to follow the chain
      of command since HK created the
      RESA structured hierarchy.

      So, first, contact your Local Director.
      They should be able to give you
      a copy of your job description
      with responsibilities.

      Also, there are other "Guidelines"
      that can be found on Eckankar.org
      such as those for "Volunteers."

      Or, it could be that your Local
      Director doesn't have a copy
      of your Job Description or that
      knowledge.So, call your Satsang
      President and they should be
      able to help you.

      Of course the Easy Way is to just
      call the RESA. It will show them
      that you're concerned and haven't
      been informed or that you didn't
      have enough experience or insight
      training and a team spirit to use
      the chain of command or RESA
      structure properly. Plus, how long
      has it been that you waited to ask
      about your responsibilities. Maybe
      you do need more Training!

      Okay, here's Klemp's expensive
      and non-specific answers:

      HK: "Handbook for ECK Leaders
      (for Initiates of the Second Circle
      and above) and Wisdom from the
      Master on Spiritual Leadership:
      ECK Leader's Guide (for High
      Initiates) answer most questions
      on spiritual leadership."

      ME: Not really. There is nothing
      "spiritual" in these books. Klemp
      simply directs people to either
      call their RESA or the ESC if the
      RESA is the problem. Klemp knows
      nothing about the problems and
      complexities that his slow moving
      and inept RESA structure causes.

      HK: "For specific areas and activities,
      you have the Outer Guidelines from
      the Master, and you can go into
      Contemplation to the Mahanta when
      you have a question.

      Your Hearing depends upon your Clarity.
      This come from Daily practice of the
      Spiritual Exercises of ECK."


      ME: Klemp is confusing ECKists
      even more by telling them to go
      to the Inner for Outer answers
      when there are already Outer
      Guidelines and Outer People in
      place within the RESA structure
      to consult. Klemp just doesn't
      get it and he causes more conflict
      with his wishy-washy and contrary
      instructions. Too many cooks
      spoil the soup.

      HK: "IF the answer on the Inner is
      different from the Outer Guidelines,
      you can always Talk To Someone
      Higher Up Than You in the RESA
      field structure."

      ME: So, is this where you find
      validation or invalidation for
      what you receive on the "Inner"
      and from the ECK or Mahanta?
      Someone "higher up than you
      in the RESA field structure?"
      A 4th Initiate might be validating
      (or not) your "Inner" and Spiritual"
      experiences!

      HK: "And a RESA can talk to other
      RESAs or to the Eckankar Spiritual
      Center for clarity as needed."

      ME: Can't 7th Initiate RESAs simply
      go to the "INNER" for "Clarity" and
      communicate with the LEM/Mahanta
      for these answers? Why do answers
      have to take place on the Outer via
      phone or snail-mail? What's wrong
      with this picture Klemp is painting?

      HK: "We are also simplifying all the
      individual Guidelines to make them
      easier to read. and use. HU Chants
      will be the first one available in the
      new user-friendly size and format.
      So, look for it." [end]


      ME: BTW- 1st-4ths need to pay for
      these improved guidelines, but H.I.s
      can download them for free on eckankar.
      org. Isn't it funny, though, how long
      it took Klemp to make a needed improvement
      for something (HU Chants) that people
      usually don't show up for! The next
      updated Guideline should be for
      Open Houses at ECK Centers. LOL!

      Prometheus
    • dianastanley43
      As wth most religions fear is the glue that holds the the people togeather. In my day there was no training to be an Arahata you just had to be a 2nd initiate.
      Message 2 of 7 , Jan 27, 2011
        As wth most religions fear is the glue that holds the the people togeather. In my day there was no training to be an Arahata you just had to be a 2nd initiate. I don't know how people keep up with the rules today. I can see where there would be a lot of fear and doubt that you were doing something wrong.
        Diana

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
        >
        > Q: "As an ECK Leader, I sometimes
        > have Questions about the Guidelines
        > or How to apply them in My Given
        > Area of Responsibility.
        >
        > Where do I go with my questions?
        >
        > I want to do the very best I can,
        > BUT I'm Afraid of making a mistake."
        > [my caps]
        >
        >
        >
        > ME: Well, that's an easy one!
        > But I do see your fear with displeasing
        > certain RESAs. Many, like Klemp,
        > also hold onto the past. First, it's
        > always good to follow the chain
        > of command since HK created the
        > RESA structured hierarchy.
        >
        > So, first, contact your Local Director.
        > They should be able to give you
        > a copy of your job description
        > with responsibilities.
        >
        > Also, there are other "Guidelines"
        > that can be found on Eckankar.org
        > such as those for "Volunteers."
        >
        > Or, it could be that your Local
        > Director doesn't have a copy
        > of your Job Description or that
        > knowledge.So, call your Satsang
        > President and they should be
        > able to help you.
        >
        > Of course the Easy Way is to just
        > call the RESA. It will show them
        > that you're concerned and haven't
        > been informed or that you didn't
        > have enough experience or insight
        > training and a team spirit to use
        > the chain of command or RESA
        > structure properly. Plus, how long
        > has it been that you waited to ask
        > about your responsibilities. Maybe
        > you do need more Training!
        >
        > Okay, here's Klemp's expensive
        > and non-specific answers:
        >
        > HK: "Handbook for ECK Leaders
        > (for Initiates of the Second Circle
        > and above) and Wisdom from the
        > Master on Spiritual Leadership:
        > ECK Leader's Guide (for High
        > Initiates) answer most questions
        > on spiritual leadership."
        >
        > ME: Not really. There is nothing
        > "spiritual" in these books. Klemp
        > simply directs people to either
        > call their RESA or the ESC if the
        > RESA is the problem. Klemp knows
        > nothing about the problems and
        > complexities that his slow moving
        > and inept RESA structure causes.
        >
        > HK: "For specific areas and activities,
        > you have the Outer Guidelines from
        > the Master, and you can go into
        > Contemplation to the Mahanta when
        > you have a question.
        >
        > Your Hearing depends upon your Clarity.
        > This come from Daily practice of the
        > Spiritual Exercises of ECK."
        >
        >
        > ME: Klemp is confusing ECKists
        > even more by telling them to go
        > to the Inner for Outer answers
        > when there are already Outer
        > Guidelines and Outer People in
        > place within the RESA structure
        > to consult. Klemp just doesn't
        > get it and he causes more conflict
        > with his wishy-washy and contrary
        > instructions. Too many cooks
        > spoil the soup.
        >
        > HK: "IF the answer on the Inner is
        > different from the Outer Guidelines,
        > you can always Talk To Someone
        > Higher Up Than You in the RESA
        > field structure."
        >
        > ME: So, is this where you find
        > validation or invalidation for
        > what you receive on the "Inner"
        > and from the ECK or Mahanta?
        > Someone "higher up than you
        > in the RESA field structure?"
        > A 4th Initiate might be validating
        > (or not) your "Inner" and Spiritual"
        > experiences!
        >
        > HK: "And a RESA can talk to other
        > RESAs or to the Eckankar Spiritual
        > Center for clarity as needed."
        >
        > ME: Can't 7th Initiate RESAs simply
        > go to the "INNER" for "Clarity" and
        > communicate with the LEM/Mahanta
        > for these answers? Why do answers
        > have to take place on the Outer via
        > phone or snail-mail? What's wrong
        > with this picture Klemp is painting?
        >
        > HK: "We are also simplifying all the
        > individual Guidelines to make them
        > easier to read. and use. HU Chants
        > will be the first one available in the
        > new user-friendly size and format.
        > So, look for it." [end]
        >
        >
        > ME: BTW- 1st-4ths need to pay for
        > these improved guidelines, but H.I.s
        > can download them for free on eckankar.
        > org. Isn't it funny, though, how long
        > it took Klemp to make a needed improvement
        > for something (HU Chants) that people
        > usually don't show up for! The next
        > updated Guideline should be for
        > Open Houses at ECK Centers. LOL!
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
      • prometheus_973
        Hello Diana and All, With Klemp in charge Eckankar has become more of a religious based business than a spiritual path. It s a pyramid scheme with Klemp on
        Message 3 of 7 , Jan 28, 2011
          Hello Diana and All,
          With Klemp in charge
          Eckankar has become
          more of a religious based
          business than a "spiritual
          path." It's a pyramid scheme
          with Klemp on top and his
          salespeople on levels below
          him. And, like most of these
          schemes, the member/sales
          person has to pay out money
          in order to advance. Except,
          ECKists pay out real money
          while Klemp gives them, in
          return, phony money and
          products in the form of
          initiations (outer and inner),
          missionary materials, words,
          and hope, faith, and belief
          via dreams, desires, as well
          as, titles/positions within the
          hierarchy.

          The redundant wording,
          trainings, techniques, and
          over all approach is to show
          the public (the gullible suckers
          as well as the EK wannabes)
          a consistency where each
          ECK Leader is on the same
          page. It's a control method.

          The delusional and embellished
          "stories," by ECKists, are also
          used to feed imaginations, alleviate
          fear, and reinforce the hope
          and promises in the EK dogma.

          Therefore, Eckankar now becomes
          a blend of Sant Mat, Hinduism,
          Sci-fi Scientology, and Christianity.

          Prometheus



          Diana Stanley wrote:
          As wth most religions fear
          is the glue that holds the the
          people together. In my day
          there was no training to be
          an Arahata you just had to
          be a 2nd initiate. I don't know
          how people keep up with the
          rules today. I can see where
          there would be a lot of fear
          and doubt that you were doing
          something wrong.
          Diana

          prometheus wrote:
          >
          > Q: "As an ECK Leader, I sometimes
          > have Questions about the Guidelines
          > or How to apply them in My Given
          > Area of Responsibility.
          >
          > Where do I go with my questions?
          >
          > I want to do the very best I can,
          > BUT I'm Afraid of making a mistake."
          > [my caps]
          >
          >
          >
          > ME: Well, that's an easy one!
          > But I do see your fear with displeasing
          > certain RESAs. Many, like Klemp,
          > also hold onto the past. First, it's
          > always good to follow the chain
          > of command since HK created the
          > RESA structured hierarchy.
          >
          > So, first, contact your Local Director.
          > They should be able to give you
          > a copy of your job description
          > with responsibilities.
          >
          > Also, there are other "Guidelines"
          > that can be found on Eckankar.org
          > such as those for "Volunteers."
          >
          > Or, it could be that your Local
          > Director doesn't have a copy
          > of your Job Description or that
          > knowledge.So, call your Satsang
          > President and they should be
          > able to help you.
          >
          > Of course the Easy Way is to just
          > call the RESA. It will show them
          > that you're concerned and haven't
          > been informed or that you didn't
          > have enough experience or insight
          > training and a team spirit to use
          > the chain of command or RESA
          > structure properly. Plus, how long
          > has it been that you waited to ask
          > about your responsibilities. Maybe
          > you do need more Training!
          >
          > Okay, here's Klemp's expensive
          > and non-specific answers:
          >
          > HK: "Handbook for ECK Leaders
          > (for Initiates of the Second Circle
          > and above) and Wisdom from the
          > Master on Spiritual Leadership:
          > ECK Leader's Guide (for High
          > Initiates) answer most questions
          > on spiritual leadership."
          >
          > ME: Not really. There is nothing
          > "spiritual" in these books. Klemp
          > simply directs people to either
          > call their RESA or the ESC if the
          > RESA is the problem. Klemp knows
          > nothing about the problems and
          > complexities that his slow moving
          > and inept RESA structure causes.
          >
          > HK: "For specific areas and activities,
          > you have the Outer Guidelines from
          > the Master, and you can go into
          > Contemplation to the Mahanta when
          > you have a question.
          >
          > Your Hearing depends upon your Clarity.
          > This come from Daily practice of the
          > Spiritual Exercises of ECK."
          >
          >
          > ME: Klemp is confusing ECKists
          > even more by telling them to go
          > to the Inner for Outer answers
          > when there are already Outer
          > Guidelines and Outer People in
          > place within the RESA structure
          > to consult. Klemp just doesn't
          > get it and he causes more conflict
          > with his wishy-washy and contrary
          > instructions. Too many cooks
          > spoil the soup.
          >
          > HK: "IF the answer on the Inner is
          > different from the Outer Guidelines,
          > you can always Talk To Someone
          > Higher Up Than You in the RESA
          > field structure."
          >
          > ME: So, is this where you find
          > validation or invalidation for
          > what you receive on the "Inner"
          > and from the ECK or Mahanta?
          > Someone "higher up than you
          > in the RESA field structure?"
          > A 4th Initiate might be validating
          > (or not) your "Inner" and Spiritual"
          > experiences!
          >
          > HK: "And a RESA can talk to other
          > RESAs or to the Eckankar Spiritual
          > Center for clarity as needed."
          >
          > ME: Can't 7th Initiate RESAs simply
          > go to the "INNER" for "Clarity" and
          > communicate with the LEM/Mahanta
          > for these answers? Why do answers
          > have to take place on the Outer via
          > phone or snail-mail? What's wrong
          > with this picture Klemp is painting?
          >
          > HK: "We are also simplifying all the
          > individual Guidelines to make them
          > easier to read. and use. HU Chants
          > will be the first one available in the
          > new user-friendly size and format.
          > So, look for it." [end]
          >
          >
          > ME: BTW- 1st-4ths need to pay for
          > these improved guidelines, but H.I.s
          > can download them for free on eckankar.
          > org. Isn't it funny, though, how long
          > it took Klemp to make a needed improvement
          > for something (HU Chants) that people
          > usually don't show up for! The next
          > updated Guideline should be for
          > Open Houses at ECK Centers. LOL!
          >
          > Prometheus
        • etznab@aol.com
          I wonder if this represents a common predictable evolution for organized religions. Whereby, instead of seeking to research and verify the credibility of their
          Message 4 of 7 , Jan 28, 2011
            I wonder if this represents a common predictable evolution for
            organized religions. Whereby, instead of seeking to research and verify
            the credibility of their teachings, groups are formed that profit from
            the materials at hand (regardless whether true, or not).

            For example. IMO Eckankar had / has the resources and technology to
            research and verify what the founder, Paul Twitchell, wrote. After Paul
            died in 1971, and later when his successor Darwin Gross faced
            criticisms in the latter 70's, somebody within the organization could
            have moved to substantiate the Eckankar teachings by clarifying fact
            from fiction. IMO it is one thing to use your head, research and verify
            something for yourself vs. blindly accepting what "authority figures"
            make believe true according to what they heard.

            My guess is that a lot of Eckankar critics believe people are parroting
            the words of Paul Twitchell and basically endorsing the same potpourri
            of dogma instead of critically asking themselves (and others) whether
            the dogma is true, or not. Some parts, no doubt, probably can be taken
            as literally true concerning what Paul and others have stated with
            regard to history. That is not what seems to concern people though. The
            concern , IMO, are those parts of religious dogma that are pseudo and
            man-made. Things that - if not researched and clarified now - may morph
            into crystalized forms of pseudo dogma (taken to be literally true)
            that could be hard to budge in the future.

            To see it happening in one's lifetime - the creation of pseudo history
            and religion - could make a person feel responsible to DO SOMETHING
            about it. Especially if affiliated with, or a member of that religion.
            (For those with a conscience, perhaps.)

            Why don't people do more? And why is it that much of the research and
            investigations are done by non-members instead? My guess is that
            usually an authority figure at the top of organized religious hierarchy
            has the final say, and that most of the flock follow that person's lead
            regardless. In some cases they might not have a choice. Not when
            publicly challenging popular religious dogma may be risky, or can put
            one in disfavor with the church. Not everybody is a Martin Luther.

            Etznab

            -----Original Message-----
            From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
            <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Fri, Jan 28, 2011 1:20 pm
            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Ask the Master -
            December/2010 The Mystic World

             
            Hello Diana and All,
            With Klemp in charge
            Eckankar has become
            more of a religious based
            business than a "spiritual
            path." It's a pyramid scheme
            with Klemp on top and his
            salespeople on levels below
            him. And, like most of these
            schemes, the member/sales
            person has to pay out money
            in order to advance. Except,
            ECKists pay out real money
            while Klemp gives them, in
            return, phony money and
            products in the form of
            initiations (outer and inner),
            missionary materials, words,
            and hope, faith, and belief
            via dreams, desires, as well
            as, titles/positions within the
            hierarchy.

            The redundant wording,
            trainings, techniques, and
            over all approach is to show
            the public (the gullible suckers
            as well as the EK wannabes)
            a consistency where each
            ECK Leader is on the same
            page. It's a control method.

            The delusional and embellished
            "stories," by ECKists, are also
            used to feed imaginations, alleviate
            fear, and reinforce the hope
            and promises in the EK dogma.

            Therefore, Eckankar now becomes
            a blend of Sant Mat, Hinduism,
            Sci-fi Scientology, and Christianity.

            Prometheus


            Diana Stanley wrote:
            As wth most religions fear
            is the glue that holds the the
            people together. In my day
            there was no training to be
            an Arahata you just had to
            be a 2nd initiate. I don't know
            how people keep up with the
            rules today. I can see where
            there would be a lot of fear
            and doubt that you were doing
            something wrong.
            Diana

            prometheus wrote:
            >
            > Q: "As an ECK Leader, I sometimes
            > have Questions about the Guidelines
            > or How to apply them in My Given
            > Area of Responsibility.
            >
            > Where do I go with my questions?
            >
            > I want to do the very best I can,
            > BUT I'm Afraid of making a mistake."
            > [my caps]
            >
            >
            >
            > ME: Well, that's an easy one!
            > But I do see your fear with displeasing
            > certain RESAs. Many, like Klemp,
            > also hold onto the past. First, it's
            > always good to follow the chain
            > of command since HK created the
            > RESA structured hierarchy.
            >
            > So, first, contact your Local Director.
            > They should be able to give you
            > a copy of your job description
            > with responsibilities.
            >
            > Also, there are other "Guidelines"
            > that can be found on Eckankar.org
            > such as those for "Volunteers."
            >
            > Or, it could be that your Local
            > Director doesn't have a copy
            > of your Job Description or that
            > knowledge.So, call your Satsang
            > President and they should be
            > able to help you.
            >
            > Of course the Easy Way is to just
            > call the RESA. It will show them
            > that you're concerned and haven't
            > been informed or that you didn't
            > have enough experience or insight
            > training and a team spirit to use
            > the chain of command or RESA
            > structure properly. Plus, how long
            > has it been that you waited to ask
            > about your responsibilities. Maybe
            > you do need more Training!
            >
            > Okay, here's Klemp's expensive
            > and non-specific answers:
            >
            > HK: "Handbook for ECK Leaders
            > (for Initiates of the Second Circle
            > and above) and Wisdom from the
            > Master on Spiritual Leadership:
            > ECK Leader's Guide (for High
            > Initiates) answer most questions
            > on spiritual leadership."
            >
            > ME: Not really. There is nothing
            > "spiritual" in these books. Klemp
            > simply directs people to either
            > call their RESA or the ESC if the
            > RESA is the problem. Klemp knows
            > nothing about the problems and
            > complexities that his slow moving
            > and inept RESA structure causes.
            >
            > HK: "For specific areas and activities,
            > you have the Outer Guidelines from
            > the Master, and you can go into
            > Contemplation to the Mahanta when
            > you have a question.
            >
            > Your Hearing depends upon your Clarity.
            > This come from Daily practice of the
            > Spiritual Exercises of ECK."
            >
            >
            > ME: Klemp is confusing ECKists
            > even more by telling them to go
            > to the Inner for Outer answers
            > when there are already Outer
            > Guidelines and Outer People in
            > place within the RESA structure
            > to consult. Klemp just doesn't
            > get it and he causes more conflict
            > with his wishy-washy and contrary
            > instructions. Too many cooks
            > spoil the soup.
            >
            > HK: "IF the answer on the Inner is
            > different from the Outer Guidelines,
            > you can always Talk To Someone
            > Higher Up Than You in the RESA
            > field structure."
            >
            > ME: So, is this where you find
            > validation or invalidation for
            > what you receive on the "Inner"
            > and from the ECK or Mahanta?
            > Someone "higher up than you
            > in the RESA field structure?"
            > A 4th Initiate might be validating
            > (or not) your "Inner" and Spiritual"
            > experiences!
            >
            > HK: "And a RESA can talk to other
            > RESAs or to the Eckankar Spiritual
            > Center for clarity as needed."
            >
            > ME: Can't 7th Initiate RESAs simply
            > go to the "INNER" for "Clarity" and
            > communicate with the LEM/Mahanta
            > for these answers? Why do answers
            > have to take place on the Outer via
            > phone or snail-mail? What's wrong
            > with this picture Klemp is painting?
            >
            > HK: "We are also simplifying all the
            > individual Guidelines to make them
            > easier to read. and use. HU Chants
            > will be the first one available in the
            > new user-friendly size and format.
            > So, look for it." [end]
            >
            >
            > ME: BTW- 1st-4ths need to pay for
            > these improved guidelines, but H.I.s
            > can download them for free on eckankar.
            > org. Isn't it funny, though, how long
            > it took Klemp to make a needed improvement
            > for something (HU Chants) that people
            > usually don't show up for! The next
            > updated Guideline should be for
            > Open Houses at ECK Centers. LOL!
            >
            > Prometheus
          • dianastanley43
            Harold wanted to be in the clergic now his wish has come through and more,he is now the pope with the vatican police. Diana
            Message 5 of 7 , Jan 28, 2011
              Harold wanted to be in the clergic now his wish has come through and more,he is now the pope with the vatican police.
              Diana
              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hello Diana and All,
              > With Klemp in charge
              > Eckankar has become
              > more of a religious based
              > business than a "spiritual
              > path." It's a pyramid scheme
              > with Klemp on top and his
              > salespeople on levels below
              > him. And, like most of these
              > schemes, the member/sales
              > person has to pay out money
              > in order to advance. Except,
              > ECKists pay out real money
              > while Klemp gives them, in
              > return, phony money and
              > products in the form of
              > initiations (outer and inner),
              > missionary materials, words,
              > and hope, faith, and belief
              > via dreams, desires, as well
              > as, titles/positions within the
              > hierarchy.
              >
              > The redundant wording,
              > trainings, techniques, and
              > over all approach is to show
              > the public (the gullible suckers
              > as well as the EK wannabes)
              > a consistency where each
              > ECK Leader is on the same
              > page. It's a control method.
              >
              > The delusional and embellished
              > "stories," by ECKists, are also
              > used to feed imaginations, alleviate
              > fear, and reinforce the hope
              > and promises in the EK dogma.
              >
              > Therefore, Eckankar now becomes
              > a blend of Sant Mat, Hinduism,
              > Sci-fi Scientology, and Christianity.
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
              >
              >
              > Diana Stanley wrote:
              > As wth most religions fear
              > is the glue that holds the the
              > people together. In my day
              > there was no training to be
              > an Arahata you just had to
              > be a 2nd initiate. I don't know
              > how people keep up with the
              > rules today. I can see where
              > there would be a lot of fear
              > and doubt that you were doing
              > something wrong.
              > Diana
              >
              > prometheus wrote:
              > >
              > > Q: "As an ECK Leader, I sometimes
              > > have Questions about the Guidelines
              > > or How to apply them in My Given
              > > Area of Responsibility.
              > >
              > > Where do I go with my questions?
              > >
              > > I want to do the very best I can,
              > > BUT I'm Afraid of making a mistake."
              > > [my caps]
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ME: Well, that's an easy one!
              > > But I do see your fear with displeasing
              > > certain RESAs. Many, like Klemp,
              > > also hold onto the past. First, it's
              > > always good to follow the chain
              > > of command since HK created the
              > > RESA structured hierarchy.
              > >
              > > So, first, contact your Local Director.
              > > They should be able to give you
              > > a copy of your job description
              > > with responsibilities.
              > >
              > > Also, there are other "Guidelines"
              > > that can be found on Eckankar.org
              > > such as those for "Volunteers."
              > >
              > > Or, it could be that your Local
              > > Director doesn't have a copy
              > > of your Job Description or that
              > > knowledge.So, call your Satsang
              > > President and they should be
              > > able to help you.
              > >
              > > Of course the Easy Way is to just
              > > call the RESA. It will show them
              > > that you're concerned and haven't
              > > been informed or that you didn't
              > > have enough experience or insight
              > > training and a team spirit to use
              > > the chain of command or RESA
              > > structure properly. Plus, how long
              > > has it been that you waited to ask
              > > about your responsibilities. Maybe
              > > you do need more Training!
              > >
              > > Okay, here's Klemp's expensive
              > > and non-specific answers:
              > >
              > > HK: "Handbook for ECK Leaders
              > > (for Initiates of the Second Circle
              > > and above) and Wisdom from the
              > > Master on Spiritual Leadership:
              > > ECK Leader's Guide (for High
              > > Initiates) answer most questions
              > > on spiritual leadership."
              > >
              > > ME: Not really. There is nothing
              > > "spiritual" in these books. Klemp
              > > simply directs people to either
              > > call their RESA or the ESC if the
              > > RESA is the problem. Klemp knows
              > > nothing about the problems and
              > > complexities that his slow moving
              > > and inept RESA structure causes.
              > >
              > > HK: "For specific areas and activities,
              > > you have the Outer Guidelines from
              > > the Master, and you can go into
              > > Contemplation to the Mahanta when
              > > you have a question.
              > >
              > > Your Hearing depends upon your Clarity.
              > > This come from Daily practice of the
              > > Spiritual Exercises of ECK."
              > >
              > >
              > > ME: Klemp is confusing ECKists
              > > even more by telling them to go
              > > to the Inner for Outer answers
              > > when there are already Outer
              > > Guidelines and Outer People in
              > > place within the RESA structure
              > > to consult. Klemp just doesn't
              > > get it and he causes more conflict
              > > with his wishy-washy and contrary
              > > instructions. Too many cooks
              > > spoil the soup.
              > >
              > > HK: "IF the answer on the Inner is
              > > different from the Outer Guidelines,
              > > you can always Talk To Someone
              > > Higher Up Than You in the RESA
              > > field structure."
              > >
              > > ME: So, is this where you find
              > > validation or invalidation for
              > > what you receive on the "Inner"
              > > and from the ECK or Mahanta?
              > > Someone "higher up than you
              > > in the RESA field structure?"
              > > A 4th Initiate might be validating
              > > (or not) your "Inner" and Spiritual"
              > > experiences!
              > >
              > > HK: "And a RESA can talk to other
              > > RESAs or to the Eckankar Spiritual
              > > Center for clarity as needed."
              > >
              > > ME: Can't 7th Initiate RESAs simply
              > > go to the "INNER" for "Clarity" and
              > > communicate with the LEM/Mahanta
              > > for these answers? Why do answers
              > > have to take place on the Outer via
              > > phone or snail-mail? What's wrong
              > > with this picture Klemp is painting?
              > >
              > > HK: "We are also simplifying all the
              > > individual Guidelines to make them
              > > easier to read. and use. HU Chants
              > > will be the first one available in the
              > > new user-friendly size and format.
              > > So, look for it." [end]
              > >
              > >
              > > ME: BTW- 1st-4ths need to pay for
              > > these improved guidelines, but H.I.s
              > > can download them for free on eckankar.
              > > org. Isn't it funny, though, how long
              > > it took Klemp to make a needed improvement
              > > for something (HU Chants) that people
              > > usually don't show up for! The next
              > > updated Guideline should be for
              > > Open Houses at ECK Centers. LOL!
              > >
              > > Prometheus
              >
            • dianastanley43
              You can t be criticle of something you want to be true and if it is true why try and verify it? Diana
              Message 6 of 7 , Jan 28, 2011
                You can't be criticle of something you want to be true and if it is true why try and verify it?
                Diana

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
                >
                >
                > I wonder if this represents a common predictable evolution for
                > organized religions. Whereby, instead of seeking to research and verify
                > the credibility of their teachings, groups are formed that profit from
                > the materials at hand (regardless whether true, or not).
                >
                > For example. IMO Eckankar had / has the resources and technology to
                > research and verify what the founder, Paul Twitchell, wrote. After Paul
                > died in 1971, and later when his successor Darwin Gross faced
                > criticisms in the latter 70's, somebody within the organization could
                > have moved to substantiate the Eckankar teachings by clarifying fact
                > from fiction. IMO it is one thing to use your head, research and verify
                > something for yourself vs. blindly accepting what "authority figures"
                > make believe true according to what they heard.
                >
                > My guess is that a lot of Eckankar critics believe people are parroting
                > the words of Paul Twitchell and basically endorsing the same potpourri
                > of dogma instead of critically asking themselves (and others) whether
                > the dogma is true, or not. Some parts, no doubt, probably can be taken
                > as literally true concerning what Paul and others have stated with
                > regard to history. That is not what seems to concern people though. The
                > concern , IMO, are those parts of religious dogma that are pseudo and
                > man-made. Things that - if not researched and clarified now - may morph
                > into crystalized forms of pseudo dogma (taken to be literally true)
                > that could be hard to budge in the future.
                >
                > To see it happening in one's lifetime - the creation of pseudo history
                > and religion - could make a person feel responsible to DO SOMETHING
                > about it. Especially if affiliated with, or a member of that religion.
                > (For those with a conscience, perhaps.)
                >
                > Why don't people do more? And why is it that much of the research and
                > investigations are done by non-members instead? My guess is that
                > usually an authority figure at the top of organized religious hierarchy
                > has the final say, and that most of the flock follow that person's lead
                > regardless. In some cases they might not have a choice. Not when
                > publicly challenging popular religious dogma may be risky, or can put
                > one in disfavor with the church. Not everybody is a Martin Luther.
                >
                > Etznab
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Fri, Jan 28, 2011 1:20 pm
                > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Ask the Master -
                > December/2010 The Mystic World
                >
                >  
                > Hello Diana and All,
                > With Klemp in charge
                > Eckankar has become
                > more of a religious based
                > business than a "spiritual
                > path." It's a pyramid scheme
                > with Klemp on top and his
                > salespeople on levels below
                > him. And, like most of these
                > schemes, the member/sales
                > person has to pay out money
                > in order to advance. Except,
                > ECKists pay out real money
                > while Klemp gives them, in
                > return, phony money and
                > products in the form of
                > initiations (outer and inner),
                > missionary materials, words,
                > and hope, faith, and belief
                > via dreams, desires, as well
                > as, titles/positions within the
                > hierarchy.
                >
                > The redundant wording,
                > trainings, techniques, and
                > over all approach is to show
                > the public (the gullible suckers
                > as well as the EK wannabes)
                > a consistency where each
                > ECK Leader is on the same
                > page. It's a control method.
                >
                > The delusional and embellished
                > "stories," by ECKists, are also
                > used to feed imaginations, alleviate
                > fear, and reinforce the hope
                > and promises in the EK dogma.
                >
                > Therefore, Eckankar now becomes
                > a blend of Sant Mat, Hinduism,
                > Sci-fi Scientology, and Christianity.
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
                >
                > Diana Stanley wrote:
                > As wth most religions fear
                > is the glue that holds the the
                > people together. In my day
                > there was no training to be
                > an Arahata you just had to
                > be a 2nd initiate. I don't know
                > how people keep up with the
                > rules today. I can see where
                > there would be a lot of fear
                > and doubt that you were doing
                > something wrong.
                > Diana
                >
                > prometheus wrote:
                > >
                > > Q: "As an ECK Leader, I sometimes
                > > have Questions about the Guidelines
                > > or How to apply them in My Given
                > > Area of Responsibility.
                > >
                > > Where do I go with my questions?
                > >
                > > I want to do the very best I can,
                > > BUT I'm Afraid of making a mistake."
                > > [my caps]
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ME: Well, that's an easy one!
                > > But I do see your fear with displeasing
                > > certain RESAs. Many, like Klemp,
                > > also hold onto the past. First, it's
                > > always good to follow the chain
                > > of command since HK created the
                > > RESA structured hierarchy.
                > >
                > > So, first, contact your Local Director.
                > > They should be able to give you
                > > a copy of your job description
                > > with responsibilities.
                > >
                > > Also, there are other "Guidelines"
                > > that can be found on Eckankar.org
                > > such as those for "Volunteers."
                > >
                > > Or, it could be that your Local
                > > Director doesn't have a copy
                > > of your Job Description or that
                > > knowledge.So, call your Satsang
                > > President and they should be
                > > able to help you.
                > >
                > > Of course the Easy Way is to just
                > > call the RESA. It will show them
                > > that you're concerned and haven't
                > > been informed or that you didn't
                > > have enough experience or insight
                > > training and a team spirit to use
                > > the chain of command or RESA
                > > structure properly. Plus, how long
                > > has it been that you waited to ask
                > > about your responsibilities. Maybe
                > > you do need more Training!
                > >
                > > Okay, here's Klemp's expensive
                > > and non-specific answers:
                > >
                > > HK: "Handbook for ECK Leaders
                > > (for Initiates of the Second Circle
                > > and above) and Wisdom from the
                > > Master on Spiritual Leadership:
                > > ECK Leader's Guide (for High
                > > Initiates) answer most questions
                > > on spiritual leadership."
                > >
                > > ME: Not really. There is nothing
                > > "spiritual" in these books. Klemp
                > > simply directs people to either
                > > call their RESA or the ESC if the
                > > RESA is the problem. Klemp knows
                > > nothing about the problems and
                > > complexities that his slow moving
                > > and inept RESA structure causes.
                > >
                > > HK: "For specific areas and activities,
                > > you have the Outer Guidelines from
                > > the Master, and you can go into
                > > Contemplation to the Mahanta when
                > > you have a question.
                > >
                > > Your Hearing depends upon your Clarity.
                > > This come from Daily practice of the
                > > Spiritual Exercises of ECK."
                > >
                > >
                > > ME: Klemp is confusing ECKists
                > > even more by telling them to go
                > > to the Inner for Outer answers
                > > when there are already Outer
                > > Guidelines and Outer People in
                > > place within the RESA structure
                > > to consult. Klemp just doesn't
                > > get it and he causes more conflict
                > > with his wishy-washy and contrary
                > > instructions. Too many cooks
                > > spoil the soup.
                > >
                > > HK: "IF the answer on the Inner is
                > > different from the Outer Guidelines,
                > > you can always Talk To Someone
                > > Higher Up Than You in the RESA
                > > field structure."
                > >
                > > ME: So, is this where you find
                > > validation or invalidation for
                > > what you receive on the "Inner"
                > > and from the ECK or Mahanta?
                > > Someone "higher up than you
                > > in the RESA field structure?"
                > > A 4th Initiate might be validating
                > > (or not) your "Inner" and Spiritual"
                > > experiences!
                > >
                > > HK: "And a RESA can talk to other
                > > RESAs or to the Eckankar Spiritual
                > > Center for clarity as needed."
                > >
                > > ME: Can't 7th Initiate RESAs simply
                > > go to the "INNER" for "Clarity" and
                > > communicate with the LEM/Mahanta
                > > for these answers? Why do answers
                > > have to take place on the Outer via
                > > phone or snail-mail? What's wrong
                > > with this picture Klemp is painting?
                > >
                > > HK: "We are also simplifying all the
                > > individual Guidelines to make them
                > > easier to read. and use. HU Chants
                > > will be the first one available in the
                > > new user-friendly size and format.
                > > So, look for it." [end]
                > >
                > >
                > > ME: BTW- 1st-4ths need to pay for
                > > these improved guidelines, but H.I.s
                > > can download them for free on eckankar.
                > > org. Isn't it funny, though, how long
                > > it took Klemp to make a needed improvement
                > > for something (HU Chants) that people
                > > usually don't show up for! The next
                > > updated Guideline should be for
                > > Open Houses at ECK Centers. LOL!
                > >
                > > Prometheus
                >
              • prometheus_973
                Hello Etznab, One purpose for having an infallible leader is to do the thinking for the flock. He s the Top Dog who knows. HK s like the Pope except the male
                Message 7 of 7 , Jan 29, 2011
                  Hello Etznab,
                  One purpose for having an infallible
                  leader is to do the thinking for the
                  flock. He's the Top Dog who "knows."
                  HK's like the Pope except the male
                  8ths won't have the chance to vote
                  for the next one like Cardinals do.

                  It does make one wonder, though,
                  when Klemp made his effort to find
                  the imaginary Sudar Singh versus
                  the very real Kirpal Singh... Why not
                  also look for and find the 500 year
                  old Rebazar and the other ancient
                  ECK Masters Who Are (claimed to be)
                  Still Living In Their Same Physical Body!
                  Or, did he send people to Tibet or
                  the Hindu Kush to look for Rebazar?
                  You'd think that the Mahanta would
                  know where he was. Isn't he supposed
                  to be in communication with him since
                  Klemp is his boss? Where are these
                  "Masters" except in the imagination!

                  Prometheus



                  etznab@... wrote:

                  I wonder if this represents a common predictable evolution for
                  organized religions. Whereby, instead of seeking to research and verify
                  the credibility of their teachings, groups are formed that profit from
                  the materials at hand (regardless whether true, or not).

                  For example. IMO Eckankar had / has the resources and technology to
                  research and verify what the founder, Paul Twitchell, wrote. After Paul
                  died in 1971, and later when his successor Darwin Gross faced
                  criticisms in the latter 70's, somebody within the organization could
                  have moved to substantiate the Eckankar teachings by clarifying fact
                  from fiction. IMO it is one thing to use your head, research and verify
                  something for yourself vs. blindly accepting what "authority figures"
                  make believe true according to what they heard.

                  My guess is that a lot of Eckankar critics believe people are parroting
                  the words of Paul Twitchell and basically endorsing the same potpourri
                  of dogma instead of critically asking themselves (and others) whether
                  the dogma is true, or not. Some parts, no doubt, probably can be taken
                  as literally true concerning what Paul and others have stated with
                  regard to history. That is not what seems to concern people though. The
                  concern , IMO, are those parts of religious dogma that are pseudo and
                  man-made. Things that - if not researched and clarified now - may morph
                  into crystalized forms of pseudo dogma (taken to be literally true)
                  that could be hard to budge in the future.

                  To see it happening in one's lifetime - the creation of pseudo history
                  and religion - could make a person feel responsible to DO SOMETHING
                  about it. Especially if affiliated with, or a member of that religion.
                  (For those with a conscience, perhaps.)

                  Why don't people do more? And why is it that much of the research and
                  investigations are done by non-members instead? My guess is that
                  usually an authority figure at the top of organized religious hierarchy
                  has the final say, and that most of the flock follow that person's lead
                  regardless. In some cases they might not have a choice. Not when
                  publicly challenging popular religious dogma may be risky, or can put
                  one in disfavor with the church. Not everybody is a Martin Luther.

                  Etznab

                  prometheus wrote:

                  Hello Diana and All,
                  With Klemp in charge
                  Eckankar has become
                  more of a religious based
                  business than a "spiritual
                  path." It's a pyramid scheme
                  with Klemp on top and his
                  salespeople on levels below
                  him. And, like most of these
                  schemes, the member/sales
                  person has to pay out money
                  in order to advance. Except,
                  ECKists pay out real money
                  while Klemp gives them, in
                  return, phony money and
                  products in the form of
                  initiations (outer and inner),
                  missionary materials, words,
                  and hope, faith, and belief
                  via dreams, desires, as well
                  as, titles/positions within the
                  hierarchy.

                  The redundant wording,
                  trainings, techniques, and
                  over all approach is to show
                  the public (the gullible suckers
                  as well as the EK wannabes)
                  a consistency where each
                  ECK Leader is on the same
                  page. It's a control method.

                  The delusional and embellished
                  "stories," by ECKists, are also
                  used to feed imaginations, alleviate
                  fear, and reinforce the hope
                  and promises in the EK dogma.

                  Therefore, Eckankar now becomes
                  a blend of Sant Mat, Hinduism,
                  Sci-fi Scientology, and Christianity.

                  Prometheus


                  Diana Stanley wrote:
                  As wth most religions fear
                  is the glue that holds the the
                  people together. In my day
                  there was no training to be
                  an Arahata you just had to
                  be a 2nd initiate. I don't know
                  how people keep up with the
                  rules today. I can see where
                  there would be a lot of fear
                  and doubt that you were doing
                  something wrong.
                  Diana

                  prometheus wrote:
                  >
                  > Q: "As an ECK Leader, I sometimes
                  > have Questions about the Guidelines
                  > or How to apply them in My Given
                  > Area of Responsibility.
                  >
                  > Where do I go with my questions?
                  >
                  > I want to do the very best I can,
                  > BUT I'm Afraid of making a mistake."
                  > [my caps]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ME: Well, that's an easy one!
                  > But I do see your fear with displeasing
                  > certain RESAs. Many, like Klemp,
                  > also hold onto the past. First, it's
                  > always good to follow the chain
                  > of command since HK created the
                  > RESA structured hierarchy.
                  >
                  > So, first, contact your Local Director.
                  > They should be able to give you
                  > a copy of your job description
                  > with responsibilities.
                  >
                  > Also, there are other "Guidelines"
                  > that can be found on Eckankar.org
                  > such as those for "Volunteers."
                  >
                  > Or, it could be that your Local
                  > Director doesn't have a copy
                  > of your Job Description or that
                  > knowledge.So, call your Satsang
                  > President and they should be
                  > able to help you.
                  >
                  > Of course the Easy Way is to just
                  > call the RESA. It will show them
                  > that you're concerned and haven't
                  > been informed or that you didn't
                  > have enough experience or insight
                  > training and a team spirit to use
                  > the chain of command or RESA
                  > structure properly. Plus, how long
                  > has it been that you waited to ask
                  > about your responsibilities. Maybe
                  > you do need more Training!
                  >
                  > Okay, here's Klemp's expensive
                  > and non-specific answers:
                  >
                  > HK: "Handbook for ECK Leaders
                  > (for Initiates of the Second Circle
                  > and above) and Wisdom from the
                  > Master on Spiritual Leadership:
                  > ECK Leader's Guide (for High
                  > Initiates) answer most questions
                  > on spiritual leadership."
                  >
                  > ME: Not really. There is nothing
                  > "spiritual" in these books. Klemp
                  > simply directs people to either
                  > call their RESA or the ESC if the
                  > RESA is the problem. Klemp knows
                  > nothing about the problems and
                  > complexities that his slow moving
                  > and inept RESA structure causes.
                  >
                  > HK: "For specific areas and activities,
                  > you have the Outer Guidelines from
                  > the Master, and you can go into
                  > Contemplation to the Mahanta when
                  > you have a question.
                  >
                  > Your Hearing depends upon your Clarity.
                  > This come from Daily practice of the
                  > Spiritual Exercises of ECK."
                  >
                  >
                  > ME: Klemp is confusing ECKists
                  > even more by telling them to go
                  > to the Inner for Outer answers
                  > when there are already Outer
                  > Guidelines and Outer People in
                  > place within the RESA structure
                  > to consult. Klemp just doesn't
                  > get it and he causes more conflict
                  > with his wishy-washy and contrary
                  > instructions. Too many cooks
                  > spoil the soup.
                  >
                  > HK: "IF the answer on the Inner is
                  > different from the Outer Guidelines,
                  > you can always Talk To Someone
                  > Higher Up Than You in the RESA
                  > field structure."
                  >
                  > ME: So, is this where you find
                  > validation or invalidation for
                  > what you receive on the "Inner"
                  > and from the ECK or Mahanta?
                  > Someone "higher up than you
                  > in the RESA field structure?"
                  > A 4th Initiate might be validating
                  > (or not) your "Inner" and Spiritual"
                  > experiences!
                  >
                  > HK: "And a RESA can talk to other
                  > RESAs or to the Eckankar Spiritual
                  > Center for clarity as needed."
                  >
                  > ME: Can't 7th Initiate RESAs simply
                  > go to the "INNER" for "Clarity" and
                  > communicate with the LEM/Mahanta
                  > for these answers? Why do answers
                  > have to take place on the Outer via
                  > phone or snail-mail? What's wrong
                  > with this picture Klemp is painting?
                  >
                  > HK: "We are also simplifying all the
                  > individual Guidelines to make them
                  > easier to read. and use. HU Chants
                  > will be the first one available in the
                  > new user-friendly size and format.
                  > So, look for it." [end]
                  >
                  >
                  > ME: BTW- 1st-4ths need to pay for
                  > these improved guidelines, but H.I.s
                  > can download them for free on eckankar.
                  > org. Isn't it funny, though, how long
                  > it took Klemp to make a needed improvement
                  > for something (HU Chants) that people
                  > usually don't show up for! The next
                  > updated Guideline should be for
                  > Open Houses at ECK Centers. LOL!
                  >
                  > Prometheus
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