Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp's 1983 Personal and Confidential Letter to Gross

Expand Messages
  • etznab@aol.com
    BTW- Does Twit ever mention the Mahanta in any of his Letters to Gail, .... Prometheus, Yes. The very first letter dated December 6th, 1962. I rather doubt
    Message 1 of 35 , Jan 8, 2011
    • 0 Attachment
      BTW- Does Twit ever mention the "Mahanta" in any of his "Letters to
      Gail," ....

      Prometheus,

      Yes. The very first letter dated December 6th, 1962.

      I rather doubt that was in the original, since it was introduced as a
      "new" term in one of Paul Twitchell's talks at a Chela Workshop in
      February 1969. Something about a state of consciousness associated with
      all Eck Masters. Memory tells me it was new information that Paul said
      he couldn't give out five, or a few years ago.

      This term, "MAHANTA", along with "ECKANKAR", "ECK Master" and "Rebazar
      Tarzs" appear on one's very first exposure to Letters to Gail. They are
      on first page of the first letter. I believe those letters were
      published in book form during the time of Darwin Gross and after Paul
      Twitchell had
      already translated (died). The original copyright for Vol. 1 was Gail
      A. Twitchell, 1973. Copyright transferred to ECKANKAR in 1982.

      My copy is the 5th printing, 1983, however. So I can't speak for the
      earlier versions of the first letter to Gail. Whether all those terms
      appeared there. Apparently, they did not - judging by illustrations
      from Michael Turner. I don't know what version Michael based his
      illustrations on. Whether on the manuscript, on earlier versions of the
      book, testimony by David Stewart, David Lane, or somebody else.

      A new person seeing all of those terms together on the first page, of
      the first letter, could get the impression "Eckankar" and "Rebazar
      Tarzs" had something to do with the contents of the book. However, far
      as I know, Rebazar Tarzs' name didn't appear publicly until 1964 and
      Eckankar wasn't founded until 1965. Furthermore, evidence suggests
      there were name changes in those letters. Sudar Singh replacing Sawan,
      or Kirpal Singh, etc. Moreover, the letter series spans a time period
      wherein Paul reportedly took Gail to be initiated by Kirpal Singh. So
      how could Kirpal Singh's name NOT be in those letters? It's rather
      curious to see Sudar Singh spoken about in the present tense, too.
      After he was supposed to have died many years before. It would make
      more sense if the name was a living "Singh", as in Kirpal Singh, seeing
      that both Paul and Gail reportedly had initiations under him.

      Gail was taken for initiation in what? 1963? And Kirpal Singh visited
      the West Coast in what? November 1963? I believe he rolled into San
      Francisco on the same day John .F.Kennedy was assassinated (Nov. 22nd,
      1963).

      Interesting it is (IMO) these letters have a six month gap (July
      1963-January 1964), because Gail would have turned 21 around July 18th,
      1963. She would have been old enough to get married, 21,
      according to Paul (he wanted to wait until she turned 21). That
      six-month window is also during the time Kirpal Singh came to
      California and Gail was allegedly taken for initiation. Now, the L.T.G.
      books don't have any letters for that period from about mid-July 1963
      to January 1964 (they were married in January 1964).

      Remember the story in I.M.S.I.A.F.? Where Paul was living in San
      Francisco and Gail in Seattle?

      " [....] 'I went to San Francisco in late November of '64 [should be
      '63?] and left her in Seattle. Then I couldn't stand it there without
      her, so I drove back to her home near South Bend, Washington, and
      married her [01/07/64]. [....]" IN MY SOUL I AM FREE, by Brad Steiger,
      p. 66

      Pages 79-80 of DIFFICULTIES OF BECOMING THE LIVING ECK MASTER mention
      something about Gail coming to San Francisco and then the two of them
      later getting married. Actually Paul had to go to Seattle and get her,
      it seems. Notice when Paul says he wrote The Far Country "while I was
      there"? Was where? San Francisco?

      Paul mentioned that he wrote discourses the first year after they got
      married. Paul also wrote that Rebazar Tarzs gave him a series of
      discourses, I believe. Allegedly Rebazar Tarzs spoke many times to them
      (Paul and Gail). The year appears to be 1964 (after they were married)
      when Rebazar
      Tarzs (according to the story) dictated The Far Country.

      Paul suggests that dialogues happened in the Himalayas:

      "[....] 'It was while traveling with Sudar Singh in the Nuri Sarup that
      I met Rebazar Tarzs,' Paulji reminded me, 'and it was in the company of
      Rebazar Tarzs that I returned to a study of the Far Country. Later,
      with Gail and her spiritual guide, Dr. John Leland, I came to know
      Rebazar Tarzs better, and I began to leave my physical body at night to
      meet with him at his mud and brick hut in the Himalayas. It was a
      series of twelve important dialogues with Rebazar Tarzs which produced
      my manuscript The Far Country.'* [*Published in 1970.] [....]" [Based
      on: IN MY SOUL I AM FREE, by Brad Steiger, p. 121]

      Paul suggests that "discourses happened in his San Francisco apartment.

      "[....] Since this first meeting [summer 1951?] with Rebazar Tarzs it
      has been proved many times over, especially when he appeared nightly
      for a period to dictate a full manuscript called 'The Far Country', a
      whole discourse on ECKANKAR, in my apartment in San Francisco while his
      body was lying on a crude bed in a hut high in the Hindu Kush
      mountains. [....]"

      ECKANKAR, Compiled Writings Volume 1, Paul Twitchell - Copyright 1975
      by Gail T. Gross, p. 35]

      Either way, it looks like Rebazar Tarzs makes an appearance in 1964,
      after they married. And
      Rebazar Tarzu (sic) sows up in a November 1964 Psychic Observer
      article. This is the first public appearance of his name that I know
      about. The Far Country didn't come out until 1971, at least, & The Key
      to ECKANKAR - featuring Paul Twitchell with Rebazar Tarzs in Seattle -
      came out in 1968. Before that, it was Paul Twitchell writing about his
      time with Rebazar Tarzs in India - The Tiger's Fang, copyright 1967.
      However, 1964 - as a publication date - preceds them all.

      So, aside from Paul's Eckankar books copyright post-1964, it was
      1964 when the name Rebazar Tarzs appeared in a public article.

      It's interesting that Paul seems to drive down to San Francisco in
      late 1963 when Kirpal Singh comes to visit - during his tour {November
      1963] - and Paul leaves Gail in Seattle. There are no letters to Gail
      from July 1963 to January 1964.

      Btw, Diana (if you've managed to read this far, I know it's long) do
      you know anything about who was Dr. John Leland?

      Etznab

      -----Original Message-----
      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sat, Jan 8, 2011 1:05 pm
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp's 1983 Personal and
      Confidential Letter to Gross

       
      Hello Etznab,
      Interesting stuff.
      BTW- Does Twit ever mention the
      "Mahanta" in any of his "Letters to
      Gail," or use any other terminology
      that is not appose to his later works
      found in the 1968-71 Monthly "The
      Wisdom Notes?" This would be a tell-
      tell sign that would show that the
      "Letters" were reedited. I'm sure that
      they were edited, anyway, for book
      form and after-the-fact. Considering
      PT's poor writing skills, style, and
      history much of the info in these
      "Letters" was more than likely plagiarized
      and paraphrased. He really comes
      across as being preachy and bossy
      (egotistical) and having researched
      the topics.

      IMO- The "Letters to Gail" series were
      actually written circa 1966-68. I'm sure
      that Twit had written personal letters
      to Gail when she, alone, was in Seattle
      (1963) just prior to them being married.
      These might have inspired him to do
      his first book in the series. However,
      I don't believe that the majority of these
      "Letters" were written to Gail at all, let
      alone, "before" they were married. This
      was merely "artistic license" that Twit
      was taking and a method he used in
      order to write and to get his "message"
      out to the public.

      Prometheus

      etznab@... wrote:

      Some of the information in those letters followed chronological events
      in the lives of Paul and Gail. Like the times they moved, etc. They
      were not long letters either. I think they might have been written at
      the times they were dated.

      I've seen both 1962 and 1963 mentioned for the time when they met. The
      first letter begins in 1962, so they must have met as early as 1962.
      The last letter is in March 1965. All of this was before the founding
      of Eckankar.

      Paul apparently loved to write letters, btw. He allegedly wrote his
      first wife every day while at sea. And he wrote a lot to Kirpal Singh
      (and others), too.

      I don't know if Paul went to the west coast until after his father died
      around 1961. It seems he worked for a while writing for newspapers and
      then met Gail in the library. In that day, probably
      one of Paul's favorite hangouts.

      About Letters to Gail, David Lane seems to have known about the
      contents for some of those letters. I believe his information came from
      an eyewitness who saw the originals.

      "[....] [19] I owe this information to David Stewart, who served as
      both Editor of the Eck World News and consulting Editor for Illuminated
      Way Press. He personally worked on the editing of Letters to Gail,
      enabling him to see the original, untampered manuscript. [....]"

      http://www.geocities.com/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html

      And about L.T.G. david purportedly says:

      "I have personally seen the name 'Kirpal Singh' crossed out in the
      manuscript form of Letters to Gail. The name 'Sudar Singh' was written
      above it. I believe that Gail did the editing."

      - Former Editor of the ECK World News, David Stewart.

      http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html

      That would be very interesting if true. Would it not? The thought of
      Gail being a part of the cover-up and propagation of pseudo history /
      religion?

      When did Paul have time to write Letters to Gail? Umm ... two pages a
      day was probably no big deal for Paul. Especially to his lover! The
      date appears to be wrong (should be 1962?), but here is what Paul
      allegedly said about the meeting and those letters:

      "[....] We met in the Seattle Public Library in 1963. She had a
      part-time job there while she attended the University of Washington as
      a full-time student. I was reading a tremendous amount of books each
      evening and IÂ would trade them in for a fresh batch on the next night.
      [....] I went right to work to educate her in ECK, and every day for
      two years I wrote her a two-page letter on Eckankar. [....]"

      Every day for two years? If that were true, it means that from July
      1963 (last letter in LTG2) to January 1964 (1st letter in LTG3) - in
      other words, for a period of about six months - we have no record of
      letters to Gail. I wonder if they were getting along so well then? Or
      if there was too much mention of Kirpal Singh to include in letters (or
      if even there were any for those months) during that time. It's
      interesting the six month break in letters. IMO.

      Btw, I believe some of the letters were edited and some of them not
      included. Think I remember seeing some from Darwin's time posted on the
      Net, or something. The same material no longer included in the current
      versions. There was one letter where Paul wrote favorably (IMO) about
      L. Ron Hubbard, I think. One of the Websites had files of those
      unedited letters. Maybe Ecktruth or one of the others. I should have
      copies of them stored away someplace.

      Etznab
    • prometheus_973
      Hello All, I just read this info on Darwin in a private email: Darwin also married Carole Roddick from London England in early 80s. Marriage may have lasted
      Message 35 of 35 , Jan 9, 2011
      • 0 Attachment
        Hello All,
        I just read this info on
        Darwin in a private email:

        "Darwin also married Carole Roddick
        from London England in early 80s.
        Marriage may have lasted up to 1yr.
        (I know this first hand, as met her
        several times when she was D's wife)
        After marriage fell apart, Carole left
        ekult. Following this, I heard (third
        hand) she had many mental health
        issues (not surprising, eh!)"
        -anonymous


        prometheus_wrote:
        >
        > Hello Diana,
        > Yes, Darwin's wife, in 1981,
        > was from Norway.
        >
        > DG and his wife, Sirpa, had dinner
        > with Harold and Marge at "Mama's"
        > in Los Altos at the Stanford Mall
        > on Saturday September 19, 1981
        > at 7:30 p.m. [Soul Travelers of the
        > Far Country, pg. 200]
        >
        >
        > On page 159 Klemp states this:
        >
        > "He (Darwin Gross) remained the
        > agent of the SUGMAD until Oct.
        > 22, 1981. By 1983, however,
        > events caught up to him; his
        > spiritual insubordination led to
        > hus removal from the Order of
        > Vairagi Adepts."
        >
        >
        > HOWEVER, isn't it true that
        > Darwin had "fallen" years prior
        > to Oct. 22, 1981 let alone 1983?
        >
        > Were/are the so-called ECK
        > Vairagi Adepts like the "Pinball
        > Wizard" Blind, Deaf, and Dumb?
        >
        > Since Diana Stanley has testified
        > that Darwin had, obviously, fallen
        > from Sugmad's Grace via actions
        > unbecoming to an ECK Master,
        > prior to 1981, this means that
        > Klemp is not, legally, the LEM
        > or the Mahanta.
        >
        > Perhaps this is why Klemp attempts
        > to rewrite history and uses the
        > imaginary Rebazar as a backup
        > singer (HUer) or fill-in ECK Master?
        >
        > The problem is that Rebazar
        > will/can never testify that this
        > is, in fact, the case! LOL! The
        > really big problem that Klemp
        > has using the Rebazar excuse
        > is that RT is not supposed to be
        > an angelic like or invisible being.
        > Rebazar is actually supposed
        > to have a 500 year old Physical
        > Body. So, where is he? Have him
        > show up at a Seminar! After all,
        > Klemp's the Mahanta and is RT's
        > boss! If RT doesn't show up then
        > fire him for insubordination!
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
        > dianastanley wrote:
        > For me Etznab it was a dark time because from 71 to 82, I slowly went from a
        > true believer to finally knowing the truth. For me the truth was slowy unvailed.
        > First it was rumors then as I was included in the inner circle of people Darwin
        > liked and was compforable with,I began to see first hand Darwin deteriate into a
        > very sick man.
        >
        > I saw him drunk and knew several of his girlfriends.
        >
        > Once at a HI talk at the menlo office,which he did on Fridays, He was talking
        > about going overseas to the World Wide seminar. He said------can't go with me as
        > she is too frail to travel now. So it was no secret to us that he was having an
        > affair with ------.
        >
        > When this lady found out he was a fake,she dropped him and left Eckankar. He
        > then briefly married her friend who was also from overseas. I think it lasted a
        > few months. Then I was told he married an airline stuardess. I don't know if
        > that is true or not. Between and during marrages he had affairs. I personaly
        > knew some of the women, it was so sad. They believed they were chosen by the
        > Mahanta. Kind of like sarificial virgins.
        >
        > oh dear I am starting to rant agin
        > Diana
        >
        > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
        > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Hello Etznab,
        > > I don't see how someone can say that
        > > 1979-81 were "the darkest years" ever
        > > experienced to be an Eckist. However,
        > > I don't know exactly when Darwin began
        > > his womanizing, drinking, drug behaviours.
        > >
        > > Maybe Diana can pin this down as to
        > > when this started? Was it when he was
        > > still married to Gail or afterwards? Also,
        > > I wonder "why" they divorced and who's
        > > idea it was? Gail still hung around for
        > > awhile after the divorce and was even
        > > given an "atta girl" plaque by Darwin.
        > >
        > > IMO 1983-84 were the most difficult and
        > > "darkest" years for Eckists [Until Klemp
        > > officially made Eckankar a "Religion" and
        > > created the "RESA" Police].
        > >
        > > I recall that at the 1982 EWWS (in San Fran)
        > > that both DG & HK were on stage together
        > > and most of us were thinking, cool, two ECK
        > > Masters! That's better than just one!
        > >
        > > However, by the time the (Easter) Creative Arts
        > > Festival (a.k.a. EK Youth Seminar) came in 1983
        > > (held in St. Louis) one could see that there were
        > > definitely two separate camps. After the seminar
        > > I had what Eckists call a "Waking Dream" or in
        > > this case a prophecy experience. While walking
        > > to my car I found an 8x10 glossy black and white
        > > photo of Darwin, in a tux, blowing across the
        > > parking lot. Of course, as an Eckist, I was looking
        > > at the hidden meaning of this and wondered if
        > > Darwin would soon be outside of Eckankar and
        > > down in the dirt, so to speak.
        > >
        > > The way the two EK Masters reacted to each
        > > other, the suspicion, and the tension in the
        > > air really made people wonder what was going
        > > on. I remember that I had Darwin sign something
        > > for me, (maybe a record). And, of course, his
        > > entourage was there lined up on the stage with
        > > him. I thought it was odd that he had to bend
        > > over for each of us, but it did give them a higher
        > > elevation to observe people. I did notice there
        > > was another small group observing everything
        > > from the back of the hall. Later, I was volunteering
        > > in the children's room and Harold, of course,
        > > came by. HK looked over at me and gave me
        > > what I perceived as a sort of a frown or a scowl.
        > > It made me wonder what I had done to deserve
        > > that "look" from the LEM. Of course, later, it
        > > made me think that I and others had been observed
        > > hanging with DG and his band of heros (or zeros).
        > > Guilt by association?!
        > >
        > > Anyway, by 1984 the schism was in full swing
        > > and Eckists had left by the droves. This was the
        > > biggest loss of members ever! That's why I say
        > > that 1979-1981 wasn't the worst of times and
        > > "the darkest years" to be an Eckist. For the majority
        > > of members it was 1983-84... later, it began around
        > > 1985-87 when Klemp was doing his rewrites of
        > > EK history and a recreation of Eckankar. Every
        > > so many years HK has added more restrictions
        > > and hoops for Eckists to jump through.
        > >
        > > Prometheus
        > >
        > >
        > > etznab@ wrote:
        > > Do the math.
        > >
        > > When did David Lane start writing his term paper?
        > >
        > > How about 1977?
        > >
        > > "Sensing the damage that the publication of David Lane's research would
        > > have on Eckankar, its lawyer, Alan Nichols, attempted to refute the
        > > charge that Paul [Paul Twitchell] had plagiarized the works of Julian
        > > Johnson. [....]"
        > >
        > > Ford Johnson, Confessions of a God Seeker, A Journey to Higher
        > > Consciousness, p. 124
        > >
        > > When did David Lane finish his manuscript and copies of it "circulated"
        > > to a number of different Eckists?
        > >
        > > How about 1978?
        > >
        > > When did Darwin announce his and Gail's divorce?
        > >
        > > Again. How about 1978?
        > >
        > > When did Gail allegedly have a conversation with Ann Arnold about
        > > Eckankar over a dinner?
        > >
        > > How about 1978?
        > >
        > > *******************************************************
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > "[....] The time period between 79 and 81 would be the darkest years
        > > that any of us had experienced since we were in ECK. [....]"
        > >
        >
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.