Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp's 1983 Personal and Confidential Letter to Gross

Expand Messages
  • etznab@aol.com
    Some of the information in those letters followed chronological events in the lives of Paul and Gail. Like the times they moved, etc. They were not long
    Message 1 of 35 , Jan 8, 2011
    • 0 Attachment
      Some of the information in those letters followed chronological events
      in the lives of Paul and Gail. Like the times they moved, etc. They
      were not long letters either. I think they might have been written at
      the times they were dated.

      I've seen both 1962 and 1963 mentioned for the time when they met. The
      first letter begins in 1962, so they must have met as early as 1962.
      The last letter is in March 1965. All of this was before the founding
      of Eckankar.

      Paul apparently loved to write letters, btw. He allegedly wrote his
      first wife every day while at sea. And he wrote a lot to Kirpal Singh
      (and others), too.

      I don't know if Paul went to the west coast until after his father died
      around 1961. It seems he worked for a while writing for newspapers and
      then met Gail in the library. In that day, probably
      one of Paul's favorite hangouts.

      About Letters to Gail, David Lane seems to have known about the
      contents for some of those letters. I believe his information came from
      an eyewitness who saw the originals.

      "[....] [19] I owe this information to David Stewart, who served as
      both Editor of the Eck World News and consulting Editor for Illuminated
      Way Press. He personally worked on the editing of Letters to Gail,
      enabling him to see the original, untampered manuscript. [....]"

      http://www.geocities.com/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html

      And about L.T.G. david purportedly says:

      "I have personally seen the name 'Kirpal Singh' crossed out in the
      manuscript form of Letters to Gail. The name 'Sudar Singh' was written
      above it. I believe that Gail did the editing."

      - Former Editor of the ECK World News, David Stewart.

      http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html

      That would be very interesting if true. Would it not? The thought of
      Gail being a part of the cover-up and propagation of pseudo history /
      religion?

      When did Paul have time to write Letters to Gail? Umm ... two pages a
      day was probably no big deal for Paul. Especially to his lover! The
      date appears to be wrong (should be 1962?), but here is what Paul
      allegedly said about the meeting and those letters:

      "[....] We met in the Seattle Public Library in 1963. She had a
      part-time job there while she attended the University of Washington as
      a full-time student. I was reading a tremendous amount of books each
      evening and I would trade them in for a fresh batch on the next night.
      [....] I went right to work to educate her in ECK, and every day for
      two years I wrote her a two-page letter on Eckankar. [....]"

      Every day for two years? If that were true, it means that from July
      1963 (last letter in LTG2) to January 1964 (1st letter in LTG3) - in
      other words, for a period of about six months - we have no record of
      letters to Gail. I wonder if they were getting along so well then? Or
      if there was too much mention of Kirpal Singh to include in letters (or
      if even there were any for those months) during that time. It's
      interesting the six month break in letters. IMO.

      Btw, I believe some of the letters were edited and some of them not
      included. Think I remember seeing some from Darwin's time posted on the
      Net, or something. The same material no longer included in the current
      versions. There was one letter where Paul wrote favorably (IMO) about
      L. Ron Hubbard, I think. One of the Websites had files of those
      unedited letters. Maybe Ecktruth or one of the others. I should have
      copies of them stored away someplace.

      Etznab





      Etznab

      -----Original Message-----
      From: dianastanley43 <dianastanley43@...>
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Fri, Jan 7, 2011 10:50 pm
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp's 1983 Personal and
      Confidential Letter to Gross

       
      If Paul was publishing in1965 when did he have time to write
      letters to Gail? When did they meet? It sounds like he was putting
      togeather the idea for establishing Eckankar as a spiritual path befor
      he met her.

      Diana
      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
      >
      >
      > Not certain right now, but I'm searching.
      >
      > I did find this:
      >
      > Paul Twitchell mentions this early (1890s) expert on the Mental
      Science
      > twice in The Way of Eckankar Series of Lectures given at a three
      day
      > seminar in early August 1966.
      >
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/links
      >
      > And this:
      >
      > "[....] David [David Lane] also finds a key source for Paul's
      early
      > quotes from the first published version of 'The Flute of God,'
      printed
      > in installments in Orion Magazine from late 1965 to 1967."
      >
      > http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Five.htm
      >
      > So far, based on the above, it looks like Orion published articles
      for
      > Paul up to at least 1967. Here is a link with excerpts from a 1967
      > article where Paul "quotes" Hazrat Inayat Khan.
      >
      > http://dlane5.tripod.com/flute.html
      >
      > I don't know that Paul Twitchell specifically cites Hazrat Inayat
      Khan
      > in connection with the Flute of God quotes about Hu. However, from
      > memory, I believe Hazrat Inayat Khan's name was mentioned in The
      Flute
      > of God about five paragraphs before Khan's "quotes" appear. Khan's
      book
      > was published around 1923, I believe.
      >
      > *****************
      >
      > When Orion was absorbed by The Church of the Christian Spiritual
      > Alliance, the Chairman of the Board was replaced by Davis around
      1977,
      > apparently.
      >
      > "CSA took a decisive turn in 1977 when O'Neal resigned as chairman
      of
      > the board and president of the publishing complex and was replaced
      by
      > Davis."
      >
      > http://www.novelguide.com/a/discover/ear_01/ear_01_00170.html
      >
      > See where it says "president of the publishing complex"? This is
      what
      > leads me to believe Davis would know the answer to the question.
      And he
      > would know whatever happened to the magazine archives.
      >
      > I believe David Lane corresponded with Davis. And, as far as I
      know,
      > David Lane was privy to more of the Orion articles by Paul
      Twitchell -
      > and posted excerpts from them - than anybody else I know about.
      >
      > I don't know the answer to your question though. When exactly
      Orion
      > stopped publishing articles by Paul Twitchell. My guess would be
      1967.
      >
      > Etznab
      >
      > P.S. Sorry for the long answer.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
      > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Fri, Jan 7, 2011 4:51 pm
      > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp's 1983 Personal
      and
      > Confidential Letter to Gross
      >
      >  
      > Hello Etznab,
      > Do you know the date that Orion
      > Magazine stopped using PT's articles
      > due to his plagiarisms?
      >
      > etznab@ wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > About the magazine you didn't remember about.
      > >
      > > Quoting post by TS:
      > >
      > > Another friend of Paul, who knew him during the days before
      and
      > after
      > > he formed Eckankar, is the well-known writer and spiritual
      teacher
      > of
      > > Kriya Yoga, Roy Eugene Davis, the director of Center of
      Spiritual
      > > Awareness and a disciple of Paramahansa Yogananda.
      > >
      > > On one occasion they [Orion Magazine] informed me that they
      had
      > > rejected Paul then most recent article because he had used
      entire
      > > paragraphs from a book on Mental Science by Judge Thomas
      Troward.
      > > After that incident his articles were no longer accepted by
      the
      > editors
      > > of Orion Magazine. I knew about this situation long before
      David
      > Lane
      > > wrote about [it] in his book, which was published years
      later."
      > >
      > http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=1431&page=63
      > >
      > > Roy would know. Right? I think so.
      > >
      > > Etznab
      > >
      > > prometheus wrote:
      > > Hello Etznab,
      > > There's another approach to PT's
      > > Tiger's Fang novel as well. It's that
      > > the book was a "novel." And, the
      > > "Rebazar" character, a so-called
      > > EK Master, is neither credible or
      > > tangible! He never did exist, except
      > > in the imagination of a proven liar.
      > >
      > > Rebazar is even less real and believable
      > > than Harry Potter!
      > >
      > > The Tiger's Fang, itself, is pure fiction!
      > > Even though Twitchell substituted
      > > the fictional "Rebazar" character
      > > for his real Master's name, Kirpal
      > > Singh, the book was still pure fantasy!
      > > Kirpal knew this and that's why he
      > > was offended by Twit's self-serving,
      > > self-promotional deception.
      > >
      > > Look at Twitchell's track record.
      > > Even Klemp admits, on Eckankar.org,
      > > that Twitchell at age 27, in 1935,
      > > was "twisting facts" and "exaggerating"
      > > in order to get into "Who's Who
      > > in Kentucky." PT had never travelled
      > > to India or been that far from home.
      > > Plus, later, one magazine [I forget
      > > the name] that was publishing PT's
      > > articles refused to publish them
      > > anymore because it was discovered
      > > that Twit had plagiarized several of
      > > his articles. This wasn't "Believe It,
      > > Or Not" this was a more credible magazine.
      > >
      > > What's even funnier is that Gail claims
      > > to have had no knowledge of any lies,
      > > plagiarisms, or scam even though Marman
      > > has pointed these out.
      > >
      > > Prometheus
      > >
      > >
      > > etznab@ wrote:
      > > I know this thread skipping is around
      > > on subjects, but I wanted to ask something
      > > about Helen Frye (since the name came
      > > up).
      > >
      > > It concerns information from another
      > > message by tuzahu that I'm trying to
      > > verify for credibility. Here is the information
      > > in question (the way I recorded it):
      > >
      > > "From the manuscrips that were obtained
      > > from the Twitchell family, Mattie and John,
      > > included a vintage copy of Tiger's Fang
      > > with Kirpal being the master, not Rebazar.
      > > Last time I saw that manuscrip Ed Peacin
      > > (spelling?) had it. This was also brought
      > > up in the court case of Eckankar vs estate
      > > of Helen Frye in Prescott, Az in 1980."
      > > [Tuzahu posts 02/02/00]
      > >
      > > http://www.angelfire.com/hi2/eckankarsurvivors/tuzahu.html
      > >
      > > Maybe I should start another thread called The Tiger's Fang.
      In any
      > > case, there are a number of things that peaked my interest.
      > >
      > > The message appeared to say that Ed Pecen had an older copy
      of the
      > > Tiger's Fang. It also appeared to say something about an
      older
      > copy of
      > > T.T.F. coming up in a court case.
      > >
      > > If you remember, David Lane was in touch with Ed Pecen
      (mentioned
      > in
      > > the "Ann Arnold" link I gave earlier). He was also in contact
      with
      > > Ex-Eckankar President Louis Bluth and others.
      > >
      > > This is remarkable information about T.T.F. manuscript
      because, if
      > > true, it could be used to find and corroborate Kirpal Singh's
      > place in
      > > that story prior to Rebazar Tarzs. It could show credible &
      > tangible
      > > evidence without waiting for Eckankar to release a copy of the
      > > manuscript (if it has one) in it's own archives.
      > >
      > > So besides the Twitchell family copy (if there was / is one)
      and
      > > besides the Helen Frye court case copy (if there was one
      submitted
      > as
      > > evidence), other copies allegedly exist(ed) besides any kept
      by
      > > Eckankar.
      > >
      > > I found another reference of the manuscript (a copy of it)
      given to
      > > Gail by Paul Twitchell. I think Paul said as much in one of
      his
      > books.
      > > Maybe letters to Gail.
      > >
      > > There was also Kirpal Singh who reportedly saw a copy. Maybe
      > another
      > > person Paul said he gave a copy to (I'll have to check on
      this).
      > >
      > > Besides all this, I've seen purported comments and
      illustrations
      > > about T.T.F. on the Net different from the modern book
      versions.
      > Also
      > > the same for letters to Gail, in which Kirpal Singh is
      featured
      > instead
      > > of Rebazar Tarzs. When you try to find, or ask the authors
      for a
      > source
      > > it seems they can't remember, don't want to talk about it, or
      the
      > whole
      > > thing is rather hush, hush (IMO). I've tried to find more
      > information
      > > about where the alternate illsustrations of T.T.F. originated
      > from, so
      > > far "nobody is talking".
      > >
      > > Is it possible the manuscripts have been sought out and
      > quarantined?
      > > And those discussing, or sharing information about them could
      be
      > > subject to liabel ("any published or written statement likely
      to
      > harm a
      > > person's reputation")?
      > >
      > > Whether Paul made it up that he shared copies of the
      manuscript
      > with
      > > others, and whether made up that Ed Pecen and others saw it,
      today
      > it
      > > is Rebazar Tarzs who appears in T.T.F. book and this is a
      very
      > large
      > > "pillar" of Eckankar history / dogma (IMO). Rebazar Tarzs, the
      > > "Torchbearer" of Eck.
      > >
      > > Finding that early manuscript and posting copies of it would
      settle
      > > so many questions once and for all. IMO. Question is, Where
      can one
      > > find a copy of it? Where can one find people (living now) who
      have
      > seen
      > > a copy and are willing to talk about it?
      > >
      > > For those intersted I've provided at least some information
      about
      > > the alleged history about this manuscript here. For what it's
      > worth.
      > >
      > > BTW. Did Darwin Gross have a copy of the original The Tiger's
      Fang
      > > manuscript? Or did he ever see a copy of it in his wife's
      (Gail's)
      > > posession?
      > >
      > > I think we could settle what was "made up", or not, about
      Eckankar
      > > right here and now just by providing a copy of that original
      The
      > > Tiger's Fang manuscript.
      > >
      > > Etznab
      > >
      >
    • prometheus_973
      Hello All, I just read this info on Darwin in a private email: Darwin also married Carole Roddick from London England in early 80s. Marriage may have lasted
      Message 35 of 35 , Jan 9, 2011
      • 0 Attachment
        Hello All,
        I just read this info on
        Darwin in a private email:

        "Darwin also married Carole Roddick
        from London England in early 80s.
        Marriage may have lasted up to 1yr.
        (I know this first hand, as met her
        several times when she was D's wife)
        After marriage fell apart, Carole left
        ekult. Following this, I heard (third
        hand) she had many mental health
        issues (not surprising, eh!)"
        -anonymous


        prometheus_wrote:
        >
        > Hello Diana,
        > Yes, Darwin's wife, in 1981,
        > was from Norway.
        >
        > DG and his wife, Sirpa, had dinner
        > with Harold and Marge at "Mama's"
        > in Los Altos at the Stanford Mall
        > on Saturday September 19, 1981
        > at 7:30 p.m. [Soul Travelers of the
        > Far Country, pg. 200]
        >
        >
        > On page 159 Klemp states this:
        >
        > "He (Darwin Gross) remained the
        > agent of the SUGMAD until Oct.
        > 22, 1981. By 1983, however,
        > events caught up to him; his
        > spiritual insubordination led to
        > hus removal from the Order of
        > Vairagi Adepts."
        >
        >
        > HOWEVER, isn't it true that
        > Darwin had "fallen" years prior
        > to Oct. 22, 1981 let alone 1983?
        >
        > Were/are the so-called ECK
        > Vairagi Adepts like the "Pinball
        > Wizard" Blind, Deaf, and Dumb?
        >
        > Since Diana Stanley has testified
        > that Darwin had, obviously, fallen
        > from Sugmad's Grace via actions
        > unbecoming to an ECK Master,
        > prior to 1981, this means that
        > Klemp is not, legally, the LEM
        > or the Mahanta.
        >
        > Perhaps this is why Klemp attempts
        > to rewrite history and uses the
        > imaginary Rebazar as a backup
        > singer (HUer) or fill-in ECK Master?
        >
        > The problem is that Rebazar
        > will/can never testify that this
        > is, in fact, the case! LOL! The
        > really big problem that Klemp
        > has using the Rebazar excuse
        > is that RT is not supposed to be
        > an angelic like or invisible being.
        > Rebazar is actually supposed
        > to have a 500 year old Physical
        > Body. So, where is he? Have him
        > show up at a Seminar! After all,
        > Klemp's the Mahanta and is RT's
        > boss! If RT doesn't show up then
        > fire him for insubordination!
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
        > dianastanley wrote:
        > For me Etznab it was a dark time because from 71 to 82, I slowly went from a
        > true believer to finally knowing the truth. For me the truth was slowy unvailed.
        > First it was rumors then as I was included in the inner circle of people Darwin
        > liked and was compforable with,I began to see first hand Darwin deteriate into a
        > very sick man.
        >
        > I saw him drunk and knew several of his girlfriends.
        >
        > Once at a HI talk at the menlo office,which he did on Fridays, He was talking
        > about going overseas to the World Wide seminar. He said------can't go with me as
        > she is too frail to travel now. So it was no secret to us that he was having an
        > affair with ------.
        >
        > When this lady found out he was a fake,she dropped him and left Eckankar. He
        > then briefly married her friend who was also from overseas. I think it lasted a
        > few months. Then I was told he married an airline stuardess. I don't know if
        > that is true or not. Between and during marrages he had affairs. I personaly
        > knew some of the women, it was so sad. They believed they were chosen by the
        > Mahanta. Kind of like sarificial virgins.
        >
        > oh dear I am starting to rant agin
        > Diana
        >
        > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
        > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Hello Etznab,
        > > I don't see how someone can say that
        > > 1979-81 were "the darkest years" ever
        > > experienced to be an Eckist. However,
        > > I don't know exactly when Darwin began
        > > his womanizing, drinking, drug behaviours.
        > >
        > > Maybe Diana can pin this down as to
        > > when this started? Was it when he was
        > > still married to Gail or afterwards? Also,
        > > I wonder "why" they divorced and who's
        > > idea it was? Gail still hung around for
        > > awhile after the divorce and was even
        > > given an "atta girl" plaque by Darwin.
        > >
        > > IMO 1983-84 were the most difficult and
        > > "darkest" years for Eckists [Until Klemp
        > > officially made Eckankar a "Religion" and
        > > created the "RESA" Police].
        > >
        > > I recall that at the 1982 EWWS (in San Fran)
        > > that both DG & HK were on stage together
        > > and most of us were thinking, cool, two ECK
        > > Masters! That's better than just one!
        > >
        > > However, by the time the (Easter) Creative Arts
        > > Festival (a.k.a. EK Youth Seminar) came in 1983
        > > (held in St. Louis) one could see that there were
        > > definitely two separate camps. After the seminar
        > > I had what Eckists call a "Waking Dream" or in
        > > this case a prophecy experience. While walking
        > > to my car I found an 8x10 glossy black and white
        > > photo of Darwin, in a tux, blowing across the
        > > parking lot. Of course, as an Eckist, I was looking
        > > at the hidden meaning of this and wondered if
        > > Darwin would soon be outside of Eckankar and
        > > down in the dirt, so to speak.
        > >
        > > The way the two EK Masters reacted to each
        > > other, the suspicion, and the tension in the
        > > air really made people wonder what was going
        > > on. I remember that I had Darwin sign something
        > > for me, (maybe a record). And, of course, his
        > > entourage was there lined up on the stage with
        > > him. I thought it was odd that he had to bend
        > > over for each of us, but it did give them a higher
        > > elevation to observe people. I did notice there
        > > was another small group observing everything
        > > from the back of the hall. Later, I was volunteering
        > > in the children's room and Harold, of course,
        > > came by. HK looked over at me and gave me
        > > what I perceived as a sort of a frown or a scowl.
        > > It made me wonder what I had done to deserve
        > > that "look" from the LEM. Of course, later, it
        > > made me think that I and others had been observed
        > > hanging with DG and his band of heros (or zeros).
        > > Guilt by association?!
        > >
        > > Anyway, by 1984 the schism was in full swing
        > > and Eckists had left by the droves. This was the
        > > biggest loss of members ever! That's why I say
        > > that 1979-1981 wasn't the worst of times and
        > > "the darkest years" to be an Eckist. For the majority
        > > of members it was 1983-84... later, it began around
        > > 1985-87 when Klemp was doing his rewrites of
        > > EK history and a recreation of Eckankar. Every
        > > so many years HK has added more restrictions
        > > and hoops for Eckists to jump through.
        > >
        > > Prometheus
        > >
        > >
        > > etznab@ wrote:
        > > Do the math.
        > >
        > > When did David Lane start writing his term paper?
        > >
        > > How about 1977?
        > >
        > > "Sensing the damage that the publication of David Lane's research would
        > > have on Eckankar, its lawyer, Alan Nichols, attempted to refute the
        > > charge that Paul [Paul Twitchell] had plagiarized the works of Julian
        > > Johnson. [....]"
        > >
        > > Ford Johnson, Confessions of a God Seeker, A Journey to Higher
        > > Consciousness, p. 124
        > >
        > > When did David Lane finish his manuscript and copies of it "circulated"
        > > to a number of different Eckists?
        > >
        > > How about 1978?
        > >
        > > When did Darwin announce his and Gail's divorce?
        > >
        > > Again. How about 1978?
        > >
        > > When did Gail allegedly have a conversation with Ann Arnold about
        > > Eckankar over a dinner?
        > >
        > > How about 1978?
        > >
        > > *******************************************************
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > "[....] The time period between 79 and 81 would be the darkest years
        > > that any of us had experienced since we were in ECK. [....]"
        > >
        >
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.