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Re: The Tiger's Fang

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  • prometheus_973
    Hello Diana, I should say here that regardless of Doug Marman s opinions Kirpal finally returned The Tiger s Fang Manuscript (not book) to Paul in or around
    Message 1 of 17 , Jan 2, 2011
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      Hello Diana,
      I should say here that regardless
      of Doug Marman's opinions Kirpal
      finally returned "The Tiger's
      Fang" Manuscript (not book) to
      Paul in or around June, 1966.

      There was no mention of "Rebazar"
      in the original manuscript. Kirpal
      was Paul's real Master and this
      was the name he mentioned. Paul
      substituted "Rebazar" for "Kirpal"
      after they had a falling out about
      Paul's exaggerations where he
      tried to place both himself and
      Kirpal on pedestals above all
      others in the imaginary worlds
      he had created. Kirpal wouldn't
      have any of Paul's bullshit because
      he hadn't paid his dues, so to speak,
      and was a Westerner who, obviously,
      needed to feed his huge ego.

      Twit had an agenda and Kirpal saw
      through it and wasn't going to be
      used to validate Paul's scam. That's
      why PT created Rebazar. This way
      no one could really challenge him
      since this "Master" only appears to
      him. Of course, now, this imaginary
      character appears in the dreams of
      many Eckists. However, Klemp has
      to validate and approve (in writing
      or verbally in seminar talks) of what
      has been seen and said. Rebazar isn't
      permitted to hand anyone else the
      Rod of ECK Power... even to hold
      for a few seconds!

      BTW- I thought Darwin stated that
      he was from "Clarion" and not Venus.

      Yes, it is funny the amount of crap
      that we try to believe in or accept
      because it's convenient and easy
      to do so because the Truth would
      hurt us. Klemp tells Eckists to take
      a "Leap of Faith" and to use their
      "imaginations." How does that one
      EK song go, "Life life is only a dream... "

      Prometheus



      dianastanley wrote:

      Paul did send a copy of the Manuscript
      to Kirpal Singh and Kirpal said it was
      not accurate as far as most of the content.
      That was the end of his relationship
      with Kirpal!

      I have to say that as far as Pauls writings
      they were all from his very vivid imagination.

      The books "The Drums of ECK", The Talons
      of Time" are pure Si Fi.

      Darwin had me up to his place in San Fran.
      He wanted me to a comic book on him.
      He rambled so much I could"nt take notes.
      He did tell me he was originaly from Venus.

      Needless to say no comic book of Darwin
      ever was made.

      At that time I still believed in Eckankar
      and so it was very confusing to me. I had
      to do some mental gymnastics so I could
      still believe. I was'nt ready to call It a Fraud
      yet. It's amazing what one will do to keep
      something you believe in with all your heart
      true. I said to my self "He's the Mahanta
      so I should'nt judge him" The Kal is making
      me doubt him.

      This was an experience that served me
      well in the future to question and investigate
      befor I decide if something is true or not.

      Diana




      > <etznab@> wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > For anybody not familiar, a copy of this book was published by Lancer Books in 1969, with a Forward by Brad Steiger.
      > >
      > > As far as Eckankar books go, I believe The Tiger's Fang came out first in 1967. Before that (at least 1966) was the book Introduction to Eckankar.
      > >
      > > Doug Marman writes: "Paul wrote The Tiger's Fang in 1957, but did nothing with the book until he offered it to Kirpal Singh in 1963." (Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 6)
      > >
      > > On my 1969 copy of The Tiger's Fang there is no picture of Rebazar Tarzs. However, the second paragraph of the first page reads: "In The Tiger's Fang you will meet Paul Twitchell's teacher, the all-knowing Rebazar Tarzs ... [....]" That was the very first page. Even before the Copyright page and the Forward by Steiger.
      > >
      > > The second paragraph of Steiger's Forward (I'm marking any italics words with an asterik)reads:
      > >
      > > "The manuscript, according to its author, Paul Twitchell, was written with the intent of recording an experience that occurred to him while he was in the company of Rebazar Tarz, the greet Tibetan master, who is one of the leading advocates of *Eckankar, the ancient science of soul travel."
      > >
      > > An introduction by Paul Twitchell (not in 1969, but 1979 version)
      > > is similar:
      > >
      > > "This manuscript was written with the idea of recording an experience that occurred to me, while in the presence of Rebazar Tarzs, the great Tibetan saint, who is the leading advocate of Eckankar, the ancient science of Soul Travel." (p. vii)
      > >
      > > ************************
      > >
      > > Here is a little trivia for context. 1967 was the first World Wide seminar of Eckankar (I believe). Paul was already advertising Eckankar and Rebazar Tarzs in Understanding Magazine as early as January 1967 (see link).
      > >
      > > http://danielfry.com/index.php?id=1067
      > >
      > > Besides the year for the first EWWS in 1967, Brad Steiger was already in touch with Paul Twitchell by then:
      > >
      > > "My association with Paul Twitchell began when I included a chapter on him in my book, THE ENIGMA OF REINCARNATION (Ace Books, 1967). The mail response to that single chapter was enormous, to say the least. [....]" [Based on: IN MY SOUL I AM FREE (ISBN 0-914766-11-2), by Brad Steiger (Copyright 1968?), p. 8]
      > >
      > > In November 1967 Rebazar Tarzs was mentioned in Search Magazine.
      > >
      > > http://tinyurl.com/384e7te
      > >
      > > In 1968, Brad Steiger was featured as guest speaker at the 2nd Eck World Wide Seminar (I believe). There is a picture of Paul Twitchell at lower right corner here:
      > >
      > > http://sites.google.com/site/pthswiki/
      > >
      > > Moreover, 1968 was the year of the first Wisdom Note (January 1968) which, I believe, Paul said were to have no charge on them. The 4th paragraph of the first W.N. mentioned Rebazar Tarzs and other "masters". (For those with the W.N. book take a look at that paragraph for context.) From what I remember, those "masters" would be in communication with some people and giving them instructions, according to Paul.
      > >
      > > Darwin Gross and Patti Simpson came to Eckankar in 1968, I believe.
      > >
      > > BY this point, 1968, key Eckankar terms were being introduced - such as "ECK Master" and "living ECK Master", I believe. Eventually, "Mahanta" would show up (by 1969, I believe). Books from 1968 include:
      > > All About ECK, The Key to ECKANKAR, THE KANDJUR, and IN MY SOUL I AM FREE (Brad Steiger). (Not sure if THE KANDJUR was available to the public.)
      > >
      > > ************************
      > >
      > > So, The Tiger's Fang was one of the first published Eckankar books with mention of Rebazar Tarzs (1967). And (about that book) Brad Steiger wrote in a forward: "Whether The Tiger's Fang is a record of an actual spiritual journey or the vivid impression of a vision that had been granted to few mortal men, must remain a matter for the individual reader to judge. [....]" Of course, that was Brad Steiger. And that was the 1960's.
      > >
      > > Harold Klemp - leader of Eckankar for about the last 30 years now - in the early 1980s wrote:
      > >
      > > "Paul encouraged people to read The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad ["Eckankar Bible"] and make their own study. He never said to take the words as holy, as the last word. You take the words and check out the teachings from within: Does this work for me or doesn't it? You have to know. And based upon what you know is how you conduct your life out here. This is what governs your relationship with your friends and your family. It governs every aspect of you in the lower worlds, including your ethics and morality."
      > >
      > > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/writings.html#ideal
      > >
      > > I like the part about "You have to know." Sounds good, doesn't it?
      > > And I'd like to apply this to all of the writings / sayings / words by anybody. Period!
      > >
      > > In any case, The Tiger's Fang (the title) comes from a story told at the back of the book where a person tries to present an imitation tiger's fang for the real thing. (Curious that. IMO.)
      > >
      > > On p. 170 of the book (Rumi speaking?): "The moral of this story is that one should first pull the tiger's fang before telling the world that he is the killer of tigers."
      > >
      > > It begs the question (IMO) whether there were / are "imitations" in any of the Eckankar writings.
      > >
      > > One other curious thing Paul added to The Tiger's Fang. Near the very end of the book, where Rumi is speaking, Paul writes (p. 173):
      > >
      > > "A fight between two, wild shaggy men interrupted the words flowing from Rumi. He looked up and watched them tumbling about the floor of the Inn. Smiling he said, 'Let them fight, Let them kill one another. That is their free will and their burden and not for us to interfere unless we take upon ourselves a part of their karma. Not that we should never feel the lack of sympathy but never invite yourself to take the burden of another.' [....]"
      > >
      > > In all, The Tiger's Fang was more than just an introduction to Rebazar Tarzs ("leading advocate of Eckankar"). It included several others. Like spiritual travelers ("masters") living on other planes, along with lords and rulers of other planes. It even included talks with historical figures from Earth's past.
      > >
      > > "Imitations" any of them?
      > >
      > > This is what I "have to" know. And if Eckankar can help to clarify what is the truth along these lines I believe it incumbent on the organization to do so. Afterall: "THEY OWN IT!"
      > >
      > > Etznab
      > >
      > Paul did send a copy of the Manuscript to Kirpal Singh and Kirpal said it was not accurate as far as most of the content. That was the end of his relationship with Kirpal!
      > I have to say that as far as Pauls writings they were all from his very vivid imagination. The books "The Drums of ECK", The Talons of Time" are pure Si Fi.
      > Darwin had me up to his place in San Fran. He wanted me to a comic book on him. He rambled so much I could"nt take notes. He did tell me he was originaly from Venus. Needless to say no comic book of Darwin ever was made. At that time I still believed in Eckankar and so it was very confusing to me. I had to do some mental gymnastics so I could still believe. I was'nt ready to call It a Fraud yet. It's amazing what one will do to keep something you believe in with all your heart true. I said to my self "He's the Mahanta so I should'nt judge him" The Kal is making me doubt him.
      > This was an experience that served me well in the future to question and investigate befor I decide if something is true or not.
      > Diana
      >
    • dianastanley43
      ... Darwin did tell me he was from Venus but of course he could t keep his story straight, he was under the influence and I m sure it influenced his memory. I
      Message 2 of 17 , Jan 2, 2011
      • 0 Attachment
        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello Diana,
        > I should say here that regardless
        > of Doug Marman's opinions Kirpal
        > finally returned "The Tiger's
        > Fang" Manuscript (not book) to
        > Paul in or around June, 1966.
        >
        > There was no mention of "Rebazar"
        > in the original manuscript. Kirpal
        > was Paul's real Master and this
        > was the name he mentioned. Paul
        > substituted "Rebazar" for "Kirpal"
        > after they had a falling out about
        > Paul's exaggerations where he
        > tried to place both himself and
        > Kirpal on pedestals above all
        > others in the imaginary worlds
        > he had created. Kirpal wouldn't
        > have any of Paul's bullshit because
        > he hadn't paid his dues, so to speak,
        > and was a Westerner who, obviously,
        > needed to feed his huge ego.
        >
        > Twit had an agenda and Kirpal saw
        > through it and wasn't going to be
        > used to validate Paul's scam. That's
        > why PT created Rebazar. This way
        > no one could really challenge him
        > since this "Master" only appears to
        > him. Of course, now, this imaginary
        > character appears in the dreams of
        > many Eckists. However, Klemp has
        > to validate and approve (in writing
        > or verbally in seminar talks) of what
        > has been seen and said. Rebazar isn't
        > permitted to hand anyone else the
        > Rod of ECK Power... even to hold
        > for a few seconds!
        >
        > BTW- I thought Darwin stated that
        > he was from "Clarion" and not Venus.
        >
        > Yes, it is funny the amount of crap
        > that we try to believe in or accept
        > because it's convenient and easy
        > to do so because the Truth would
        > hurt us. Klemp tells Eckists to take
        > a "Leap of Faith" and to use their
        > "imaginations." How does that one
        > EK song go, "Life life is only a dream... "
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
        >
        >
        > dianastanley wrote:
        >
        > Paul did send a copy of the Manuscript
        > to Kirpal Singh and Kirpal said it was
        > not accurate as far as most of the content.
        > That was the end of his relationship
        > with Kirpal!
        >
        > I have to say that as far as Pauls writings
        > they were all from his very vivid imagination.
        >
        > The books "The Drums of ECK", The Talons
        > of Time" are pure Si Fi.
        >
        > Darwin had me up to his place in San Fran.
        > He wanted me to a comic book on him.
        > He rambled so much I could"nt take notes.
        > He did tell me he was originaly from Venus.
        >
        > Needless to say no comic book of Darwin
        > ever was made.
        >
        > At that time I still believed in Eckankar
        > and so it was very confusing to me. I had
        > to do some mental gymnastics so I could
        > still believe. I was'nt ready to call It a Fraud
        > yet. It's amazing what one will do to keep
        > something you believe in with all your heart
        > true. I said to my self "He's the Mahanta
        > so I should'nt judge him" The Kal is making
        > me doubt him.
        >
        > This was an experience that served me
        > well in the future to question and investigate
        > befor I decide if something is true or not.
        >
        > Diana
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > > <etznab@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > For anybody not familiar, a copy of this book was published by Lancer Books in 1969, with a Forward by Brad Steiger.
        > > >
        > > > As far as Eckankar books go, I believe The Tiger's Fang came out first in 1967. Before that (at least 1966) was the book Introduction to Eckankar.
        > > >
        > > > Doug Marman writes: "Paul wrote The Tiger's Fang in 1957, but did nothing with the book until he offered it to Kirpal Singh in 1963." (Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 6)
        > > >
        > > > On my 1969 copy of The Tiger's Fang there is no picture of Rebazar Tarzs. However, the second paragraph of the first page reads: "In The Tiger's Fang you will meet Paul Twitchell's teacher, the all-knowing Rebazar Tarzs ... [....]" That was the very first page. Even before the Copyright page and the Forward by Steiger.
        > > >
        > > > The second paragraph of Steiger's Forward (I'm marking any italics words with an asterik)reads:
        > > >
        > > > "The manuscript, according to its author, Paul Twitchell, was written with the intent of recording an experience that occurred to him while he was in the company of Rebazar Tarz, the greet Tibetan master, who is one of the leading advocates of *Eckankar, the ancient science of soul travel."
        > > >
        > > > An introduction by Paul Twitchell (not in 1969, but 1979 version)
        > > > is similar:
        > > >
        > > > "This manuscript was written with the idea of recording an experience that occurred to me, while in the presence of Rebazar Tarzs, the great Tibetan saint, who is the leading advocate of Eckankar, the ancient science of Soul Travel." (p. vii)
        > > >
        > > > ************************
        > > >
        > > > Here is a little trivia for context. 1967 was the first World Wide seminar of Eckankar (I believe). Paul was already advertising Eckankar and Rebazar Tarzs in Understanding Magazine as early as January 1967 (see link).
        > > >
        > > > http://danielfry.com/index.php?id=1067
        > > >
        > > > Besides the year for the first EWWS in 1967, Brad Steiger was already in touch with Paul Twitchell by then:
        > > >
        > > > "My association with Paul Twitchell began when I included a chapter on him in my book, THE ENIGMA OF REINCARNATION (Ace Books, 1967). The mail response to that single chapter was enormous, to say the least. [....]" [Based on: IN MY SOUL I AM FREE (ISBN 0-914766-11-2), by Brad Steiger (Copyright 1968?), p. 8]
        > > >
        > > > In November 1967 Rebazar Tarzs was mentioned in Search Magazine.
        > > >
        > > > http://tinyurl.com/384e7te
        > > >
        > > > In 1968, Brad Steiger was featured as guest speaker at the 2nd Eck World Wide Seminar (I believe). There is a picture of Paul Twitchell at lower right corner here:
        > > >
        > > > http://sites.google.com/site/pthswiki/
        > > >
        > > > Moreover, 1968 was the year of the first Wisdom Note (January 1968) which, I believe, Paul said were to have no charge on them. The 4th paragraph of the first W.N. mentioned Rebazar Tarzs and other "masters". (For those with the W.N. book take a look at that paragraph for context.) From what I remember, those "masters" would be in communication with some people and giving them instructions, according to Paul.
        > > >
        > > > Darwin Gross and Patti Simpson came to Eckankar in 1968, I believe.
        > > >
        > > > BY this point, 1968, key Eckankar terms were being introduced - such as "ECK Master" and "living ECK Master", I believe. Eventually, "Mahanta" would show up (by 1969, I believe). Books from 1968 include:
        > > > All About ECK, The Key to ECKANKAR, THE KANDJUR, and IN MY SOUL I AM FREE (Brad Steiger). (Not sure if THE KANDJUR was available to the public.)
        > > >
        > > > ************************
        > > >
        > > > So, The Tiger's Fang was one of the first published Eckankar books with mention of Rebazar Tarzs (1967). And (about that book) Brad Steiger wrote in a forward: "Whether The Tiger's Fang is a record of an actual spiritual journey or the vivid impression of a vision that had been granted to few mortal men, must remain a matter for the individual reader to judge. [....]" Of course, that was Brad Steiger. And that was the 1960's.
        > > >
        > > > Harold Klemp - leader of Eckankar for about the last 30 years now - in the early 1980s wrote:
        > > >
        > > > "Paul encouraged people to read The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad ["Eckankar Bible"] and make their own study. He never said to take the words as holy, as the last word. You take the words and check out the teachings from within: Does this work for me or doesn't it? You have to know. And based upon what you know is how you conduct your life out here. This is what governs your relationship with your friends and your family. It governs every aspect of you in the lower worlds, including your ethics and morality."
        > > >
        > > > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/writings.html#ideal
        > > >
        > > > I like the part about "You have to know." Sounds good, doesn't it?
        > > > And I'd like to apply this to all of the writings / sayings / words by anybody. Period!
        > > >
        > > > In any case, The Tiger's Fang (the title) comes from a story told at the back of the book where a person tries to present an imitation tiger's fang for the real thing. (Curious that. IMO.)
        > > >
        > > > On p. 170 of the book (Rumi speaking?): "The moral of this story is that one should first pull the tiger's fang before telling the world that he is the killer of tigers."
        > > >
        > > > It begs the question (IMO) whether there were / are "imitations" in any of the Eckankar writings.
        > > >
        > > > One other curious thing Paul added to The Tiger's Fang. Near the very end of the book, where Rumi is speaking, Paul writes (p. 173):
        > > >
        > > > "A fight between two, wild shaggy men interrupted the words flowing from Rumi. He looked up and watched them tumbling about the floor of the Inn. Smiling he said, 'Let them fight, Let them kill one another. That is their free will and their burden and not for us to interfere unless we take upon ourselves a part of their karma. Not that we should never feel the lack of sympathy but never invite yourself to take the burden of another.' [....]"
        > > >
        > > > In all, The Tiger's Fang was more than just an introduction to Rebazar Tarzs ("leading advocate of Eckankar"). It included several others. Like spiritual travelers ("masters") living on other planes, along with lords and rulers of other planes. It even included talks with historical figures from Earth's past.
        > > >
        > > > "Imitations" any of them?
        > > >
        > > > This is what I "have to" know. And if Eckankar can help to clarify what is the truth along these lines I believe it incumbent on the organization to do so. Afterall: "THEY OWN IT!"
        > > >
        > > > Etznab
        > > >
        > > Paul did send a copy of the Manuscript to Kirpal Singh and Kirpal said it was not accurate as far as most of the content. That was the end of his relationship with Kirpal!
        > > I have to say that as far as Pauls writings they were all from his very vivid imagination. The books "The Drums of ECK", The Talons of Time" are pure Si Fi.
        > > Darwin had me up to his place in San Fran. He wanted me to a comic book on him. He rambled so much I could"nt take notes. He did tell me he was originaly from Venus. Needless to say no comic book of Darwin ever was made. At that time I still believed in Eckankar and so it was very confusing to me. I had to do some mental gymnastics so I could still believe. I was'nt ready to call It a Fraud yet. It's amazing what one will do to keep something you believe in with all your heart true. I said to my self "He's the Mahanta so I should'nt judge him" The Kal is making me doubt him.
        > > This was an experience that served me well in the future to question and investigate befor I decide if something is true or not.
        > > Diana
        > >
        >
        Darwin did tell me he was from Venus but of course he could't keep his story straight, he was under the influence and I'm sure it influenced his memory.
        I was told that 971 was Pauls address in San Diego and Tarz was a street in the town. That was were he got the idea of being the 971 Mahanta.
        I was told that Dr. Booth(I think that was his name)wrote most of the herb book. He would have girls come to his house so he could diagnos their bodies or aura to see what herbs they needed. He would have them undress so he could look at them. This was told to me by a close friend who had it done to her. She had no reason to lie and was a
        loyal Eckist.
        It seems the more i get into this posting, stray and random memories are coming to me, That have nothing to do with what was asked. So I just post them maybe someone has questions about these things. Many of you were most likly not in Eckankar in those days. I think it sets the tone of what it was like for me back then.
        Diana
      • prometheus_973
        Hello Diana, So who was Paul s girl friend while Darwin was messing around with Gail? Was it Anya Foos-Graber? I figured they weren t getting along well when
        Message 3 of 17 , Jan 3, 2011
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          Hello Diana,
          So who was Paul's girl friend while
          Darwin was messing around with
          Gail? Was it Anya Foos-Graber?

          I figured they weren't getting along
          well when Paul made some negative
          comments about marriage in a series
          of 1971 interviews for "Difficulties
          of Becoming the LEM." [pgs. 24-25]

          Actually Paul didn't come out with
          the term "Mahanta" in print until
          the Jan. 1, 1969 (monthly) The Wisdom
          Notes.

          I can see how Darwin confused Clairon
          with Venus. Lies are harder to remember
          than the truth.

          That's interesting how paul picked that
          number 971 out of thin air. Now we know
          why.

          BTW- Can you mention anything else
          about Gail and her Sunasu Vitamin scam?
          Paul made a big deal about Not selling
          them in Satsangs and about a guy wanting
          to come in to sell them. I guess she had
          to get rid of Paul in order to have Darwin
          bring them into ECK Centers and Satsangs!

          Also, can you mention anything about
          that creepy John Roger Hinkins. He was
          the 2nd initiate that used Paul's discourses
          for his own religion. Like Paul, he thought
          he knew more than others, and didn't want
          to climb up the ladder slowly. I think he
          saw through the scam and wanted his own.
          He wanted to create his own religion and
          pounce upon the first opportunity... like
          Twit did with Kirpal when he wasn't being
          promoted fast enough.

          Prometheus

          dianastanley wrote:

          Darwin did tell me he was from Venus but
          of course he could't keep his story straight,
          he was under the influence and I'm sure it
          influenced his memory.

          I was told that 971 was Pauls address in
          San Diego and Tarz was a street in the
          town. That was were he got the idea of
          being the 971 Mahanta.

          I was told that Dr. Booth(I think that was
          his name) wrote most of the herb book.
          He would have girls come to his house
          so he could diagnos their bodies or aura
          to see what herbs they needed. He would
          have them undress so he could look at
          them. This was told to me by a close friend
          who had it done to her. She had no reason
          to lie and was a loyal Eckist.

          It seems the more i get into this posting,
          stray and random memories are coming
          to me, That have nothing to do with what
          was asked. So I just post them maybe
          someone has questions about these things.
          Many of you were most likly not in Eckankar
          in those days. I think it sets the tone of what
          it was like for me back then.

          Diana

          prometheus_973@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Hello Diana,
          > > I should say here that regardless
          > > of Doug Marman's opinions Kirpal
          > > finally returned "The Tiger's
          > > Fang" Manuscript (not book) to
          > > Paul in or around June, 1966.
          > >
          > > There was no mention of "Rebazar"
          > > in the original manuscript. Kirpal
          > > was Paul's real Master and this
          > > was the name he mentioned. Paul
          > > substituted "Rebazar" for "Kirpal"
          > > after they had a falling out about
          > > Paul's exaggerations where he
          > > tried to place both himself and
          > > Kirpal on pedestals above all
          > > others in the imaginary worlds
          > > he had created. Kirpal wouldn't
          > > have any of Paul's bullshit because
          > > he hadn't paid his dues, so to speak,
          > > and was a Westerner who, obviously,
          > > needed to feed his huge ego.
          > >
          > > Twit had an agenda and Kirpal saw
          > > through it and wasn't going to be
          > > used to validate Paul's scam. That's
          > > why PT created Rebazar. This way
          > > no one could really challenge him
          > > since this "Master" only appears to
          > > him. Of course, now, this imaginary
          > > character appears in the dreams of
          > > many Eckists. However, Klemp has
          > > to validate and approve (in writing
          > > or verbally in seminar talks) of what
          > > has been seen and said. Rebazar isn't
          > > permitted to hand anyone else the
          > > Rod of ECK Power... even to hold
          > > for a few seconds!
          > >
          > > BTW- I thought Darwin stated that
          > > he was from "Clarion" and not Venus.
          > >
          > > Yes, it is funny the amount of crap
          > > that we try to believe in or accept
          > > because it's convenient and easy
          > > to do so because the Truth would
          > > hurt us. Klemp tells Eckists to take
          > > a "Leap of Faith" and to use their
          > > "imaginations." How does that one
          > > EK song go, "Life life is only a dream... "
          > >
          > > Prometheus
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > dianastanley wrote:
          > >
          > > Paul did send a copy of the Manuscript
          > > to Kirpal Singh and Kirpal said it was
          > > not accurate as far as most of the content.
          > > That was the end of his relationship
          > > with Kirpal!
          > >
          > > I have to say that as far as Pauls writings
          > > they were all from his very vivid imagination.
          > >
          > > The books "The Drums of ECK", The Talons
          > > of Time" are pure Si Fi.
          > >
          > > Darwin had me up to his place in San Fran.
          > > He wanted me to a comic book on him.
          > > He rambled so much I could"nt take notes.
          > > He did tell me he was originaly from Venus.
          > >
          > > Needless to say no comic book of Darwin
          > > ever was made.
          > >
          > > At that time I still believed in Eckankar
          > > and so it was very confusing to me. I had
          > > to do some mental gymnastics so I could
          > > still believe. I was'nt ready to call It a Fraud
          > > yet. It's amazing what one will do to keep
          > > something you believe in with all your heart
          > > true. I said to my self "He's the Mahanta
          > > so I should'nt judge him" The Kal is making
          > > me doubt him.
          > >
          > > This was an experience that served me
          > > well in the future to question and investigate
          > > befor I decide if something is true or not.
          > >
          > > Diana
        • dianastanley43
          ... I was told Paul had several girl friends. A friend of Anyas told me she was with Paul when he died. I believe it was at a seminar but not sure. I know when
          Message 4 of 17 , Jan 3, 2011
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            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hello Diana,
            > So who was Paul's girl friend while
            > Darwin was messing around with
            > Gail? Was it Anya Foos-Graber?
            >
            > I figured they weren't getting along
            > well when Paul made some negative
            > comments about marriage in a series
            > of 1971 interviews for "Difficulties
            > of Becoming the LEM." [pgs. 24-25]
            >
            > Actually Paul didn't come out with
            > the term "Mahanta" in print until
            > the Jan. 1, 1969 (monthly) The Wisdom
            > Notes.
            >
            > I can see how Darwin confused Clairon
            > with Venus. Lies are harder to remember
            > than the truth.
            >
            > That's interesting how paul picked that
            > number 971 out of thin air. Now we know
            > why.
            >
            > BTW- Can you mention anything else
            > about Gail and her Sunasu Vitamin scam?
            > Paul made a big deal about Not selling
            > them in Satsangs and about a guy wanting
            > to come in to sell them. I guess she had
            > to get rid of Paul in order to have Darwin
            > bring them into ECK Centers and Satsangs!
            >
            > Also, can you mention anything about
            > that creepy John Roger Hinkins. He was
            > the 2nd initiate that used Paul's discourses
            > for his own religion. Like Paul, he thought
            > he knew more than others, and didn't want
            > to climb up the ladder slowly. I think he
            > saw through the scam and wanted his own.
            > He wanted to create his own religion and
            > pounce upon the first opportunity... like
            > Twit did with Kirpal when he wasn't being
            > promoted fast enough.
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
            > dianastanley wrote:
            >
            > Darwin did tell me he was from Venus but
            > of course he could't keep his story straight,
            > he was under the influence and I'm sure it
            > influenced his memory.
            >
            > I was told that 971 was Pauls address in
            > San Diego and Tarz was a street in the
            > town. That was were he got the idea of
            > being the 971 Mahanta.
            >
            > I was told that Dr. Booth(I think that was
            > his name) wrote most of the herb book.
            > He would have girls come to his house
            > so he could diagnos their bodies or aura
            > to see what herbs they needed. He would
            > have them undress so he could look at
            > them. This was told to me by a close friend
            > who had it done to her. She had no reason
            > to lie and was a loyal Eckist.
            >
            > It seems the more i get into this posting,
            > stray and random memories are coming
            > to me, That have nothing to do with what
            > was asked. So I just post them maybe
            > someone has questions about these things.
            > Many of you were most likly not in Eckankar
            > in those days. I think it sets the tone of what
            > it was like for me back then.
            >
            > Diana
            >
            > prometheus_973@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Hello Diana,
            > > > I should say here that regardless
            > > > of Doug Marman's opinions Kirpal
            > > > finally returned "The Tiger's
            > > > Fang" Manuscript (not book) to
            > > > Paul in or around June, 1966.
            > > >
            > > > There was no mention of "Rebazar"
            > > > in the original manuscript. Kirpal
            > > > was Paul's real Master and this
            > > > was the name he mentioned. Paul
            > > > substituted "Rebazar" for "Kirpal"
            > > > after they had a falling out about
            > > > Paul's exaggerations where he
            > > > tried to place both himself and
            > > > Kirpal on pedestals above all
            > > > others in the imaginary worlds
            > > > he had created. Kirpal wouldn't
            > > > have any of Paul's bullshit because
            > > > he hadn't paid his dues, so to speak,
            > > > and was a Westerner who, obviously,
            > > > needed to feed his huge ego.
            > > >
            > > > Twit had an agenda and Kirpal saw
            > > > through it and wasn't going to be
            > > > used to validate Paul's scam. That's
            > > > why PT created Rebazar. This way
            > > > no one could really challenge him
            > > > since this "Master" only appears to
            > > > him. Of course, now, this imaginary
            > > > character appears in the dreams of
            > > > many Eckists. However, Klemp has
            > > > to validate and approve (in writing
            > > > or verbally in seminar talks) of what
            > > > has been seen and said. Rebazar isn't
            > > > permitted to hand anyone else the
            > > > Rod of ECK Power... even to hold
            > > > for a few seconds!
            > > >
            > > > BTW- I thought Darwin stated that
            > > > he was from "Clarion" and not Venus.
            > > >
            > > > Yes, it is funny the amount of crap
            > > > that we try to believe in or accept
            > > > because it's convenient and easy
            > > > to do so because the Truth would
            > > > hurt us. Klemp tells Eckists to take
            > > > a "Leap of Faith" and to use their
            > > > "imaginations." How does that one
            > > > EK song go, "Life life is only a dream... "
            > > >
            > > > Prometheus
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > dianastanley wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Paul did send a copy of the Manuscript
            > > > to Kirpal Singh and Kirpal said it was
            > > > not accurate as far as most of the content.
            > > > That was the end of his relationship
            > > > with Kirpal!
            > > >
            > > > I have to say that as far as Pauls writings
            > > > they were all from his very vivid imagination.
            > > >
            > > > The books "The Drums of ECK", The Talons
            > > > of Time" are pure Si Fi.
            > > >
            > > > Darwin had me up to his place in San Fran.
            > > > He wanted me to a comic book on him.
            > > > He rambled so much I could"nt take notes.
            > > > He did tell me he was originaly from Venus.
            > > >
            > > > Needless to say no comic book of Darwin
            > > > ever was made.
            > > >
            > > > At that time I still believed in Eckankar
            > > > and so it was very confusing to me. I had
            > > > to do some mental gymnastics so I could
            > > > still believe. I was'nt ready to call It a Fraud
            > > > yet. It's amazing what one will do to keep
            > > > something you believe in with all your heart
            > > > true. I said to my self "He's the Mahanta
            > > > so I should'nt judge him" The Kal is making
            > > > me doubt him.
            > > >
            > > > This was an experience that served me
            > > > well in the future to question and investigate
            > > > befor I decide if something is true or not.
            > > >
            > > > Diana
            >

            I was told Paul had several girl friends. A friend of Anyas told me she was with Paul when he died. I believe it was at a seminar but not sure.
            I know when I worked in the Vegas office(befor we moved to menlo) They were shipping Sunasu from the shipping dept. Then they stopped as they did'nt want to get cought because Eckankar was a non profit religion and SunaSu was definitly a Product.
            Gail told me Paul developed SunaSu so she would have her own way of making a living. one time I got sick and Darwin had Gail send me a years supply monthly. I tried them and they didn't agree with me. So I would give them to other people.
            When I was living with Helen,Jhon Rogers sent me a money order for $20 and a letter, to tell the truth I can't even remember what it was about. Helen said to keep jt for evidence. I had no idea what she was taking about and she would'nt give me any details. I did'nt even know about the proublems they were having with him or even who he was.
            I was'nt paticulary interested as I was painting the passing of the Rod of Power at that time.
            They decided to make it into a print to sell to the Eckist. So even though they destroyed the painting I am sure there are still prints of it out there. Of course some of the Eckist proubly burned thier copies as well.
            About ten years ago An Eckist wrote to me and asked if I had any prints of it left.( I was selling prints of my latest paintings)They had nothing to do with anything Eck. I had one print so I sent it to him.
            I kept a copy of all the prints and book covers I did for Eck. I have one comic book left. If I can figure out how to put photos on here I will show some of the Comic Strips I did of Talons of Time. They were pretty good if I do say so my self!
            It's fun talking to you guys.
            Diana

            Diana
          • etznab@aol.com
            If Rebazar was not in the original T.F. manuscript I would say Paul did more than just edit out Kirpal s name. I would say Paul created pseudo history and
            Message 5 of 17 , Jan 3, 2011
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              If Rebazar was not in the original T.F. manuscript
              I would say Paul did more than just edit out Kirpal's
              name. I would say Paul created pseudo history and
              religion that is now a part of Eckankar dogma.

              In my research I thought that Paul reportedly gave
              a copy of his T.F. manuscript to at least two, maybe
              three different people (not including Kirpal). I myself
              would really like to view the original manuscript. One
              that Doug Marman seems to believe was written at
              some time in the 1950's.

              Over the years I've also seen quotes reportedly from
              manuscripts (originals of) Letters to Gail that do not
              include Rebazar Tarzs, but Kirpal Singh. These are
              still on the Net, but the individuals who shared these
              illustrations were either anonymous or claimed they
              did not remember where the quotes came from. IOW,
              I was not able to confirm the sources and whether or
              not these alternate versions were credible. Michael
              Turner - over at a.r.e. - posted some of these at one
              time.

              If earlier versions do exist, showing Kirpal Singh in
              the originals of LTG and Eckankar materials, to me it
              would evidence even more pseudo history / religion.

              I think this subject needs to be investigated until a
              point where the original manuscripts turn up. David L.
              illustrated a number of earlier pieces that appear now
              to have changed from the earlier versions. However I
              don't recall David quoting the original Tiger's Fang as
              if he had a copy of it.

              IMO, every member of Eckankar should be allowed
              access to a copy of that original T.F. manuscript that
              in 1963 Paul Twitchell sent to his old master Kirpal S.
              I'd certainly love to find a copy in an old book store, if
              they have not yet been all quarantined, or destroyed.



              -----Original Message-----
              From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sun, Jan 2, 2011 6:06 pm
              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Tiger's Fang

               
              Hello Diana,
              I should say here that regardless
              of Doug Marman's opinions Kirpal
              finally returned "The Tiger's
              Fang" Manuscript (not book) to
              Paul in or around June, 1966.

              There was no mention of "Rebazar"
              in the original manuscript. Kirpal
              was Paul's real Master and this
              was the name he mentioned. Paul
              substituted "Rebazar" for "Kirpal"
              after they had a falling out about
              Paul's exaggerations where he
              tried to place both himself and
              Kirpal on pedestals above all
              others in the imaginary worlds
              he had created. Kirpal wouldn't
              have any of Paul's bullshit because
              he hadn't paid his dues, so to speak,
              and was a Westerner who, obviously,
              needed to feed his huge ego.

              Twit had an agenda and Kirpal saw
              through it and wasn't going to be
              used to validate Paul's scam. That's
              why PT created Rebazar. This way
              no one could really challenge him
              since this "Master" only appears to
              him. Of course, now, this imaginary
              character appears in the dreams of
              many Eckists. However, Klemp has
              to validate and approve (in writing
              or verbally in seminar talks) of what
              has been seen and said. Rebazar isn't
              permitted to hand anyone else the
              Rod of ECK Power... even to hold
              for a few seconds!

              BTW- I thought Darwin stated that
              he was from "Clarion" and not Venus.

              Yes, it is funny the amount of crap
              that we try to believe in or accept
              because it's convenient and easy
              to do so because the Truth would
              hurt us. Klemp tells Eckists to take
              a "Leap of Faith" and to use their
              "imaginations." How does that one
              EK song go, "Life life is only a dream... "

              Prometheus

              dianastanley wrote:

              Paul did send a copy of the Manuscript
              to Kirpal Singh and Kirpal said it was
              not accurate as far as most of the content.
              That was the end of his relationship
              with Kirpal!

              I have to say that as far as Pauls writings
              they were all from his very vivid imagination.

              The books "The Drums of ECK", The Talons
              of Time" are pure Si Fi.

              Darwin had me up to his place in San Fran.
              He wanted me to a comic book on him.
              He rambled so much I could"nt take notes.
              He did tell me he was originaly from Venus.

              Needless to say no comic book of Darwin
              ever was made.

              At that time I still believed in Eckankar
              and so it was very confusing to me. I had
              to do some mental gymnastics so I could
              still believe. I was'nt ready to call It a Fraud
              yet. It's amazing what one will do to keep
              something you believe in with all your heart
              true. I said to my self "He's the Mahanta
              so I should'nt judge him" The Kal is making
              me doubt him.

              This was an experience that served me
              well in the future to question and investigate
              befor I decide if something is true or not.

              Diana

              > <etznab@> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > For anybody not familiar, a copy of this book was
              published by Lancer Books in 1969, with a Forward by Brad Steiger.
              > >
              > > As far as Eckankar books go, I believe The Tiger's Fang
              came out first in 1967. Before that (at least 1966) was the book
              Introduction to Eckankar.
              > >
              > > Doug Marman writes: "Paul wrote The Tiger's Fang in 1957,
              but did nothing with the book until he offered it to Kirpal Singh in
              1963." (Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 6)
              > >
              > > On my 1969 copy of The Tiger's Fang there is no picture of
              Rebazar Tarzs. However, the second paragraph of the first page reads:
              "In The Tiger's Fang you will meet Paul Twitchell's teacher, the
              all-knowing Rebazar Tarzs ... [....]" That was the very first page.
              Even before the Copyright page and the Forward by Steiger.
              > >
              > > The second paragraph of Steiger's Forward (I'm marking any
              italics words with an asterik)reads:
              > >
              > > "The manuscript, according to its author, Paul Twitchell,
              was written with the intent of recording an experience that occurred to
              him while he was in the company of Rebazar Tarz, the greet Tibetan
              master, who is one of the leading advocates of *Eckankar, the ancient
              science of soul travel."
              > >
              > > An introduction by Paul Twitchell (not in 1969, but 1979
              version)
              > > is similar:
              > >
              > > "This manuscript was written with the idea of recording an
              experience that occurred to me, while in the presence of Rebazar Tarzs,
              the great Tibetan saint, who is the leading advocate of Eckankar, the
              ancient science of Soul Travel." (p. vii)
              > >
              > > ************************
              > >
              > > Here is a little trivia for context. 1967 was the first
              World Wide seminar of Eckankar (I believe). Paul was already
              advertising Eckankar and Rebazar Tarzs in Understanding Magazine as
              early as January 1967 (see link).
              > >
              > > http://danielfry.com/index.php?id=1067
              > >
              > > Besides the year for the first EWWS in 1967, Brad Steiger was
              already in touch with Paul Twitchell by then:
              > >
              > > "My association with Paul Twitchell began when I included a
              chapter on him in my book, THE ENIGMA OF REINCARNATION (Ace Books,
              1967). The mail response to that single chapter was enormous, to say
              the least. [....]" [Based on: IN MY SOUL I AM FREE (ISBN
              0-914766-11-2), by Brad Steiger (Copyright 1968?), p. 8]
              > >
              > > In November 1967 Rebazar Tarzs was mentioned in Search
              Magazine.
              > >
              > > http://tinyurl.com/384e7te
              > >
              > > In 1968, Brad Steiger was featured as guest speaker at the
              2nd Eck World Wide Seminar (I believe). There is a picture of Paul
              Twitchell at lower right corner here:
              > >
              > > http://sites.google.com/site/pthswiki/
              > >
              > > Moreover, 1968 was the year of the first Wisdom Note
              (January 1968) which, I believe, Paul said were to have no charge on
              them. The 4th paragraph of the first W.N. mentioned Rebazar Tarzs and
              other "masters". (For those with the W.N. book take a look at that
              paragraph for context.) From what I remember, those "masters" would be
              in communication with some people and giving them instructions,
              according to Paul.
              > >
              > > Darwin Gross and Patti Simpson came to Eckankar in 1968, I
              believe.
              > >
              > > BY this point, 1968, key Eckankar terms were being
              introduced - such as "ECK Master" and "living ECK Master", I believe.
              Eventually, "Mahanta" would show up (by 1969, I believe). Books from
              1968 include:
              > > All About ECK, The Key to ECKANKAR, THE KANDJUR, and IN MY
              SOUL I AM FREE (Brad Steiger). (Not sure if THE KANDJUR was available
              to the public.)
              > >
              > > ************************
              > >
              > > So, The Tiger's Fang was one of the first published
              Eckankar books with mention of Rebazar Tarzs (1967). And (about that
              book) Brad Steiger wrote in a forward: "Whether The Tiger's Fang is a
              record of an actual spiritual journey or the vivid impression of a
              vision that had been granted to few mortal men, must remain a matter
              for the individual reader to judge. [....]" Of course, that was Brad
              Steiger. And that was the 1960's.
              > >
              > > Harold Klemp - leader of Eckankar for about the last 30
              years now - in the early 1980s wrote:
              > >
              > > "Paul encouraged people to read The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad
              ["Eckankar Bible"] and make their own study. He never said to take the
              words as holy, as the last word. You take the words and check out the
              teachings from within: Does this work for me or doesn't it? You have to
              know. And based upon what you know is how you conduct your life out
              here. This is what governs your relationship with your friends and your
              family. It governs every aspect of you in the lower worlds, including
              your ethics and morality."
              > >
              > > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/writings.html#ideal
              > >
              > > I like the part about "You have to know." Sounds good,
              doesn't it?
              > > And I'd like to apply this to all of the writings / sayings /
              words by anybody. Period!
              > >
              > > In any case, The Tiger's Fang (the title) comes from a
              story told at the back of the book where a person tries to present an
              imitation tiger's fang for the real thing. (Curious that. IMO.)
              > >
              > > On p. 170 of the book (Rumi speaking?): "The moral of this
              story is that one should first pull the tiger's fang before telling the
              world that he is the killer of tigers."
              > >
              > > It begs the question (IMO) whether there were / are
              "imitations" in any of the Eckankar writings.
              > >
              > > One other curious thing Paul added to The Tiger's Fang.
              Near the very end of the book, where Rumi is speaking, Paul writes (p.
              173):
              > >
              > > "A fight between two, wild shaggy men interrupted the
              words flowing from Rumi. He looked up and watched them tumbling about
              the floor of the Inn. Smiling he said, 'Let them fight, Let them kill
              one another. That is their free will and their burden and not for us to
              interfere unless we take upon ourselves a part of their karma. Not that
              we should never feel the lack of sympathy but never invite yourself to
              take the burden of another.' [....]"
              > >
              > > In all, The Tiger's Fang was more than just an
              introduction to Rebazar Tarzs ("leading advocate of Eckankar"). It
              included several others. Like spiritual travelers ("masters") living on
              other planes, along with lords and rulers of other planes. It even
              included talks with historical figures from Earth's past.
              > >
              > > "Imitations" any of them?
              > >
              > > This is what I "have to" know. And if Eckankar can help to
              clarify what is the truth along these lines I believe it incumbent on
              the organization to do so. Afterall: "THEY OWN IT!"
              > >
              > > Etznab
              > >
              > Paul did send a copy of the Manuscript to Kirpal Singh and
              Kirpal said it was not accurate as far as most of the content. That was
              the end of his relationship with Kirpal!
              > I have to say that as far as Pauls writings they were all from his
              very vivid imagination. The books "The Drums of ECK", The Talons of
              Time" are pure Si Fi.
              > Darwin had me up to his place in San Fran. He wanted me to a comic
              book on him. He rambled so much I could"nt take notes. He did tell me
              he was originaly from Venus. Needless to say no comic book of Darwin
              ever was made. At that time I still believed in Eckankar and so it was
              very confusing to me. I had to do some mental gymnastics so I could
              still believe. I was'nt ready to call It a Fraud yet. It's amazing what
              one will do to keep something you believe in with all your heart true.
              I said to my self "He's the Mahanta so I should'nt judge him" The Kal
              is making me doubt him.
              > This was an experience that served me well in the future to
              question and investigate befor I decide if something is true or not.
              > Diana
              >
            • dianastanley43
              ... The Letters to Gail. wer nt really letters paul wrote and posted to Gail. He made them up so it seemed he was educating her so she knew what she got into
              Message 6 of 17 , Jan 3, 2011
              • 0 Attachment
                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
                >
                >
                > If Rebazar was not in the original T.F. manuscript
                > I would say Paul did more than just edit out Kirpal's
                > name. I would say Paul created pseudo history and
                > religion that is now a part of Eckankar dogma.
                >
                > In my research I thought that Paul reportedly gave
                > a copy of his T.F. manuscript to at least two, maybe
                > three different people (not including Kirpal). I myself
                > would really like to view the original manuscript. One
                > that Doug Marman seems to believe was written at
                > some time in the 1950's.
                >
                > Over the years I've also seen quotes reportedly from
                > manuscripts (originals of) Letters to Gail that do not
                > include Rebazar Tarzs, but Kirpal Singh. These are
                > still on the Net, but the individuals who shared these
                > illustrations were either anonymous or claimed they
                > did not remember where the quotes came from. IOW,
                > I was not able to confirm the sources and whether or
                > not these alternate versions were credible. Michael
                > Turner - over at a.r.e. - posted some of these at one
                > time.
                >
                > If earlier versions do exist, showing Kirpal Singh in
                > the originals of LTG and Eckankar materials, to me it
                > would evidence even more pseudo history / religion.
                >
                > I think this subject needs to be investigated until a
                > point where the original manuscripts turn up. David L.
                > illustrated a number of earlier pieces that appear now
                > to have changed from the earlier versions. However I
                > don't recall David quoting the original Tiger's Fang as
                > if he had a copy of it.
                >
                > IMO, every member of Eckankar should be allowed
                > access to a copy of that original T.F. manuscript that
                > in 1963 Paul Twitchell sent to his old master Kirpal S.
                > I'd certainly love to find a copy in an old book store, if
                > they have not yet been all quarantined, or destroyed.
                >
                >
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Sun, Jan 2, 2011 6:06 pm
                > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Tiger's Fang
                >
                >  
                > Hello Diana,
                > I should say here that regardless
                > of Doug Marman's opinions Kirpal
                > finally returned "The Tiger's
                > Fang" Manuscript (not book) to
                > Paul in or around June, 1966.
                >
                > There was no mention of "Rebazar"
                > in the original manuscript. Kirpal
                > was Paul's real Master and this
                > was the name he mentioned. Paul
                > substituted "Rebazar" for "Kirpal"
                > after they had a falling out about
                > Paul's exaggerations where he
                > tried to place both himself and
                > Kirpal on pedestals above all
                > others in the imaginary worlds
                > he had created. Kirpal wouldn't
                > have any of Paul's bullshit because
                > he hadn't paid his dues, so to speak,
                > and was a Westerner who, obviously,
                > needed to feed his huge ego.
                >
                > Twit had an agenda and Kirpal saw
                > through it and wasn't going to be
                > used to validate Paul's scam. That's
                > why PT created Rebazar. This way
                > no one could really challenge him
                > since this "Master" only appears to
                > him. Of course, now, this imaginary
                > character appears in the dreams of
                > many Eckists. However, Klemp has
                > to validate and approve (in writing
                > or verbally in seminar talks) of what
                > has been seen and said. Rebazar isn't
                > permitted to hand anyone else the
                > Rod of ECK Power... even to hold
                > for a few seconds!
                >
                > BTW- I thought Darwin stated that
                > he was from "Clarion" and not Venus.
                >
                > Yes, it is funny the amount of crap
                > that we try to believe in or accept
                > because it's convenient and easy
                > to do so because the Truth would
                > hurt us. Klemp tells Eckists to take
                > a "Leap of Faith" and to use their
                > "imaginations." How does that one
                > EK song go, "Life life is only a dream... "
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
                > dianastanley wrote:
                >
                > Paul did send a copy of the Manuscript
                > to Kirpal Singh and Kirpal said it was
                > not accurate as far as most of the content.
                > That was the end of his relationship
                > with Kirpal!
                >
                > I have to say that as far as Pauls writings
                > they were all from his very vivid imagination.
                >
                > The books "The Drums of ECK", The Talons
                > of Time" are pure Si Fi.
                >
                > Darwin had me up to his place in San Fran.
                > He wanted me to a comic book on him.
                > He rambled so much I could"nt take notes.
                > He did tell me he was originaly from Venus.
                >
                > Needless to say no comic book of Darwin
                > ever was made.
                >
                > At that time I still believed in Eckankar
                > and so it was very confusing to me. I had
                > to do some mental gymnastics so I could
                > still believe. I was'nt ready to call It a Fraud
                > yet. It's amazing what one will do to keep
                > something you believe in with all your heart
                > true. I said to my self "He's the Mahanta
                > so I should'nt judge him" The Kal is making
                > me doubt him.
                >
                > This was an experience that served me
                > well in the future to question and investigate
                > befor I decide if something is true or not.
                >
                > Diana
                >
                > > <etznab@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > For anybody not familiar, a copy of this book was
                > published by Lancer Books in 1969, with a Forward by Brad Steiger.
                > > >
                > > > As far as Eckankar books go, I believe The Tiger's Fang
                > came out first in 1967. Before that (at least 1966) was the book
                > Introduction to Eckankar.
                > > >
                > > > Doug Marman writes: "Paul wrote The Tiger's Fang in 1957,
                > but did nothing with the book until he offered it to Kirpal Singh in
                > 1963." (Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 6)
                > > >
                > > > On my 1969 copy of The Tiger's Fang there is no picture of
                > Rebazar Tarzs. However, the second paragraph of the first page reads:
                > "In The Tiger's Fang you will meet Paul Twitchell's teacher, the
                > all-knowing Rebazar Tarzs ... [....]" That was the very first page.
                > Even before the Copyright page and the Forward by Steiger.
                > > >
                > > > The second paragraph of Steiger's Forward (I'm marking any
                > italics words with an asterik)reads:
                > > >
                > > > "The manuscript, according to its author, Paul Twitchell,
                > was written with the intent of recording an experience that occurred to
                > him while he was in the company of Rebazar Tarz, the greet Tibetan
                > master, who is one of the leading advocates of *Eckankar, the ancient
                > science of soul travel."
                > > >
                > > > An introduction by Paul Twitchell (not in 1969, but 1979
                > version)
                > > > is similar:
                > > >
                > > > "This manuscript was written with the idea of recording an
                > experience that occurred to me, while in the presence of Rebazar Tarzs,
                > the great Tibetan saint, who is the leading advocate of Eckankar, the
                > ancient science of Soul Travel." (p. vii)
                > > >
                > > > ************************
                > > >
                > > > Here is a little trivia for context. 1967 was the first
                > World Wide seminar of Eckankar (I believe). Paul was already
                > advertising Eckankar and Rebazar Tarzs in Understanding Magazine as
                > early as January 1967 (see link).
                > > >
                > > > http://danielfry.com/index.php?id=1067
                > > >
                > > > Besides the year for the first EWWS in 1967, Brad Steiger was
                > already in touch with Paul Twitchell by then:
                > > >
                > > > "My association with Paul Twitchell began when I included a
                > chapter on him in my book, THE ENIGMA OF REINCARNATION (Ace Books,
                > 1967). The mail response to that single chapter was enormous, to say
                > the least. [....]" [Based on: IN MY SOUL I AM FREE (ISBN
                > 0-914766-11-2), by Brad Steiger (Copyright 1968?), p. 8]
                > > >
                > > > In November 1967 Rebazar Tarzs was mentioned in Search
                > Magazine.
                > > >
                > > > http://tinyurl.com/384e7te
                > > >
                > > > In 1968, Brad Steiger was featured as guest speaker at the
                > 2nd Eck World Wide Seminar (I believe). There is a picture of Paul
                > Twitchell at lower right corner here:
                > > >
                > > > http://sites.google.com/site/pthswiki/
                > > >
                > > > Moreover, 1968 was the year of the first Wisdom Note
                > (January 1968) which, I believe, Paul said were to have no charge on
                > them. The 4th paragraph of the first W.N. mentioned Rebazar Tarzs and
                > other "masters". (For those with the W.N. book take a look at that
                > paragraph for context.) From what I remember, those "masters" would be
                > in communication with some people and giving them instructions,
                > according to Paul.
                > > >
                > > > Darwin Gross and Patti Simpson came to Eckankar in 1968, I
                > believe.
                > > >
                > > > BY this point, 1968, key Eckankar terms were being
                > introduced - such as "ECK Master" and "living ECK Master", I believe.
                > Eventually, "Mahanta" would show up (by 1969, I believe). Books from
                > 1968 include:
                > > > All About ECK, The Key to ECKANKAR, THE KANDJUR, and IN MY
                > SOUL I AM FREE (Brad Steiger). (Not sure if THE KANDJUR was available
                > to the public.)
                > > >
                > > > ************************
                > > >
                > > > So, The Tiger's Fang was one of the first published
                > Eckankar books with mention of Rebazar Tarzs (1967). And (about that
                > book) Brad Steiger wrote in a forward: "Whether The Tiger's Fang is a
                > record of an actual spiritual journey or the vivid impression of a
                > vision that had been granted to few mortal men, must remain a matter
                > for the individual reader to judge. [....]" Of course, that was Brad
                > Steiger. And that was the 1960's.
                > > >
                > > > Harold Klemp - leader of Eckankar for about the last 30
                > years now - in the early 1980s wrote:
                > > >
                > > > "Paul encouraged people to read The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad
                > ["Eckankar Bible"] and make their own study. He never said to take the
                > words as holy, as the last word. You take the words and check out the
                > teachings from within: Does this work for me or doesn't it? You have to
                > know. And based upon what you know is how you conduct your life out
                > here. This is what governs your relationship with your friends and your
                > family. It governs every aspect of you in the lower worlds, including
                > your ethics and morality."
                > > >
                > > > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/writings.html#ideal
                > > >
                > > > I like the part about "You have to know." Sounds good,
                > doesn't it?
                > > > And I'd like to apply this to all of the writings / sayings /
                > words by anybody. Period!
                > > >
                > > > In any case, The Tiger's Fang (the title) comes from a
                > story told at the back of the book where a person tries to present an
                > imitation tiger's fang for the real thing. (Curious that. IMO.)
                > > >
                > > > On p. 170 of the book (Rumi speaking?): "The moral of this
                > story is that one should first pull the tiger's fang before telling the
                > world that he is the killer of tigers."
                > > >
                > > > It begs the question (IMO) whether there were / are
                > "imitations" in any of the Eckankar writings.
                > > >
                > > > One other curious thing Paul added to The Tiger's Fang.
                > Near the very end of the book, where Rumi is speaking, Paul writes (p.
                > 173):
                > > >
                > > > "A fight between two, wild shaggy men interrupted the
                > words flowing from Rumi. He looked up and watched them tumbling about
                > the floor of the Inn. Smiling he said, 'Let them fight, Let them kill
                > one another. That is their free will and their burden and not for us to
                > interfere unless we take upon ourselves a part of their karma. Not that
                > we should never feel the lack of sympathy but never invite yourself to
                > take the burden of another.' [....]"
                > > >
                > > > In all, The Tiger's Fang was more than just an
                > introduction to Rebazar Tarzs ("leading advocate of Eckankar"). It
                > included several others. Like spiritual travelers ("masters") living on
                > other planes, along with lords and rulers of other planes. It even
                > included talks with historical figures from Earth's past.
                > > >
                > > > "Imitations" any of them?
                > > >
                > > > This is what I "have to" know. And if Eckankar can help to
                > clarify what is the truth along these lines I believe it incumbent on
                > the organization to do so. Afterall: "THEY OWN IT!"
                > > >
                > > > Etznab
                > > >
                > > Paul did send a copy of the Manuscript to Kirpal Singh and
                > Kirpal said it was not accurate as far as most of the content. That was
                > the end of his relationship with Kirpal!
                > > I have to say that as far as Pauls writings they were all from his
                > very vivid imagination. The books "The Drums of ECK", The Talons of
                > Time" are pure Si Fi.
                > > Darwin had me up to his place in San Fran. He wanted me to a comic
                > book on him. He rambled so much I could"nt take notes. He did tell me
                > he was originaly from Venus. Needless to say no comic book of Darwin
                > ever was made. At that time I still believed in Eckankar and so it was
                > very confusing to me. I had to do some mental gymnastics so I could
                > still believe. I was'nt ready to call It a Fraud yet. It's amazing what
                > one will do to keep something you believe in with all your heart true.
                > I said to my self "He's the Mahanta so I should'nt judge him" The Kal
                > is making me doubt him.
                > > This was an experience that served me well in the future to
                > question and investigate befor I decide if something is true or not.
                > > Diana
                > >
                >
                The Letters to Gail. wer'nt really letters paul wrote and posted to Gail. He made them up so it seemed he was educating her so she knew what she got into when she married him. What a caring man to write that many letters to his future wife!!!
                Gail sold Sunasu to her twin sister.
                Diana
              • prometheus_973
                Hello Etznab, There s no if about it. Rebazar is a fictional comic book/religious character! Paul wrote The Tiger s Fang to impress his Master... Kirpal
                Message 7 of 17 , Jan 3, 2011
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hello Etznab,
                  There's no "if" about it. Rebazar is a fictional
                  comic book/religious character! Paul wrote
                  The Tiger's Fang to impress his Master... Kirpal
                  Singh. PT was with Kirpal for 10 years (1955-
                  1965) while, at the same time, exploring other
                  philosophies and paths.

                  And, of course, Paul reedited The Tiger's Fang,
                  after their disagreement, just like he reedited
                  The Flute of God and even the Shariyat. Don't
                  put too much weight upon what Doug Marman
                  has to say. Why? He's a Klemp apologist and
                  a H.I. and can't be trusted. He's simply feathering
                  his own nest in hopes of receiving that next
                  Initiation, selling books, and establishing an
                  EK following of sorts. Or maybe he's hoping
                  his pal, little Harry, will pass him the Rod...
                  someday!

                  Klemp even states on Eckankar.org that
                  Kirpal returned The Tiger's Fang manuscript
                  after they had a falling out.

                  Plus, on Eckankar.org Klemp mentions
                  Kirpal's name about 17 times while HK
                  mentions the fictitious "Sudar Singh"
                  (another name substitution for Kirpal
                  Singh) about 5 times.

                  I doubt that you could find anything
                  written by Paul, prior to 1966, that
                  mentions Rebazar, although, he (later)
                  claimed to have been initiated by him,
                  first, in 1935 and, again, on a second
                  trip to India (to the 12th) around 1951.

                  Prometheus

                  etznab@... wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > If Rebazar was not in the original T.F. manuscript
                  > I would say Paul did more than just edit out Kirpal's
                  > name. I would say Paul created pseudo history and
                  > religion that is now a part of Eckankar dogma.
                  >
                  > In my research I thought that Paul reportedly gave
                  > a copy of his T.F. manuscript to at least two, maybe
                  > three different people (not including Kirpal). I myself
                  > would really like to view the original manuscript. One
                  > that Doug Marman seems to believe was written at
                  > some time in the 1950's.
                  >
                  > Over the years I've also seen quotes reportedly from
                  > manuscripts (originals of) Letters to Gail that do not
                  > include Rebazar Tarzs, but Kirpal Singh. These are
                  > still on the Net, but the individuals who shared these
                  > illustrations were either anonymous or claimed they
                  > did not remember where the quotes came from. IOW,
                  > I was not able to confirm the sources and whether or
                  > not these alternate versions were credible. Michael
                  > Turner - over at a.r.e. - posted some of these at one
                  > time.
                  >
                  > If earlier versions do exist, showing Kirpal Singh in
                  > the originals of LTG and Eckankar materials, to me it
                  > would evidence even more pseudo history / religion.
                  >
                  > I think this subject needs to be investigated until a
                  > point where the original manuscripts turn up. David L.
                  > illustrated a number of earlier pieces that appear now
                  > to have changed from the earlier versions. However I
                  > don't recall David quoting the original Tiger's Fang as
                  > if he had a copy of it.
                  >
                  > IMO, every member of Eckankar should be allowed
                  > access to a copy of that original T.F. manuscript that
                  > in 1963 Paul Twitchell sent to his old master Kirpal S.
                  > I'd certainly love to find a copy in an old book store, if
                  > they have not yet been all quarantined, or destroyed.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                  > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Sun, Jan 2, 2011 6:06 pm
                  > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Tiger's Fang
                  >
                  >  
                  > Hello Diana,
                  > I should say here that regardless
                  > of Doug Marman's opinions Kirpal
                  > finally returned "The Tiger's
                  > Fang" Manuscript (not book) to
                  > Paul in or around June, 1966.
                  >
                  > There was no mention of "Rebazar"
                  > in the original manuscript. Kirpal
                  > was Paul's real Master and this
                  > was the name he mentioned. Paul
                  > substituted "Rebazar" for "Kirpal"
                  > after they had a falling out about
                  > Paul's exaggerations where he
                  > tried to place both himself and
                  > Kirpal on pedestals above all
                  > others in the imaginary worlds
                  > he had created. Kirpal wouldn't
                  > have any of Paul's bullshit because
                  > he hadn't paid his dues, so to speak,
                  > and was a Westerner who, obviously,
                  > needed to feed his huge ego.
                  >
                  > Twit had an agenda and Kirpal saw
                  > through it and wasn't going to be
                  > used to validate Paul's scam. That's
                  > why PT created Rebazar. This way
                  > no one could really challenge him
                  > since this "Master" only appears to
                  > him. Of course, now, this imaginary
                  > character appears in the dreams of
                  > many Eckists. However, Klemp has
                  > to validate and approve (in writing
                  > or verbally in seminar talks) of what
                  > has been seen and said. Rebazar isn't
                  > permitted to hand anyone else the
                  > Rod of ECK Power... even to hold
                  > for a few seconds!
                  >
                  > BTW- I thought Darwin stated that
                  > he was from "Clarion" and not Venus.
                  >
                  > Yes, it is funny the amount of crap
                  > that we try to believe in or accept
                  > because it's convenient and easy
                  > to do so because the Truth would
                  > hurt us. Klemp tells Eckists to take
                  > a "Leap of Faith" and to use their
                  > "imaginations." How does that one
                  > EK song go, "Life life is only a dream... "
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                  > dianastanley wrote:
                  >
                  > Paul did send a copy of the Manuscript
                  > to Kirpal Singh and Kirpal said it was
                  > not accurate as far as most of the content.
                  > That was the end of his relationship
                  > with Kirpal!
                  >
                  > I have to say that as far as Pauls writings
                  > they were all from his very vivid imagination.
                  >
                  > The books "The Drums of ECK", The Talons
                  > of Time" are pure Si Fi.
                  >
                  > Darwin had me up to his place in San Fran.
                  > He wanted me to a comic book on him.
                  > He rambled so much I could"nt take notes.
                  > He did tell me he was originaly from Venus.
                  >
                  > Needless to say no comic book of Darwin
                  > ever was made.
                  >
                  > At that time I still believed in Eckankar
                  > and so it was very confusing to me. I had
                  > to do some mental gymnastics so I could
                  > still believe. I was'nt ready to call It a Fraud
                  > yet. It's amazing what one will do to keep
                  > something you believe in with all your heart
                  > true. I said to my self "He's the Mahanta
                  > so I should'nt judge him" The Kal is making
                  > me doubt him.
                  >
                  > This was an experience that served me
                  > well in the future to question and investigate
                  > befor I decide if something is true or not.
                  >
                  > Diana
                  >
                  > > <etznab@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > For anybody not familiar, a copy of this book was
                  > published by Lancer Books in 1969, with a Forward by Brad Steiger.
                  > > >
                  > > > As far as Eckankar books go, I believe The Tiger's Fang
                  > came out first in 1967. Before that (at least 1966) was the book
                  > Introduction to Eckankar.
                  > > >
                  > > > Doug Marman writes: "Paul wrote The Tiger's Fang in 1957,
                  > but did nothing with the book until he offered it to Kirpal Singh in
                  > 1963." (Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 6)
                  > > >
                  > > > On my 1969 copy of The Tiger's Fang there is no picture of
                  > Rebazar Tarzs. However, the second paragraph of the first page reads:
                  > "In The Tiger's Fang you will meet Paul Twitchell's teacher, the
                  > all-knowing Rebazar Tarzs ... [....]" That was the very first page.
                  > Even before the Copyright page and the Forward by Steiger.
                  > > >
                  > > > The second paragraph of Steiger's Forward (I'm marking any
                  > italics words with an asterik)reads:
                  > > >
                  > > > "The manuscript, according to its author, Paul Twitchell,
                  > was written with the intent of recording an experience that occurred to
                  > him while he was in the company of Rebazar Tarz, the greet Tibetan
                  > master, who is one of the leading advocates of *Eckankar, the ancient
                  > science of soul travel."
                  > > >
                  > > > An introduction by Paul Twitchell (not in 1969, but 1979
                  > version)
                  > > > is similar:
                  > > >
                  > > > "This manuscript was written with the idea of recording an
                  > experience that occurred to me, while in the presence of Rebazar Tarzs,
                  > the great Tibetan saint, who is the leading advocate of Eckankar, the
                  > ancient science of Soul Travel." (p. vii)
                  > > >
                  > > > ************************
                  > > >
                  > > > Here is a little trivia for context. 1967 was the first
                  > World Wide seminar of Eckankar (I believe). Paul was already
                  > advertising Eckankar and Rebazar Tarzs in Understanding Magazine as
                  > early as January 1967 (see link).
                  > > >
                  > > > http://danielfry.com/index.php?id=1067
                  > > >
                  > > > Besides the year for the first EWWS in 1967, Brad Steiger was
                  > already in touch with Paul Twitchell by then:
                  > > >
                  > > > "My association with Paul Twitchell began when I included a
                  > chapter on him in my book, THE ENIGMA OF REINCARNATION (Ace Books,
                  > 1967). The mail response to that single chapter was enormous, to say
                  > the least. [....]" [Based on: IN MY SOUL I AM FREE (ISBN
                  > 0-914766-11-2), by Brad Steiger (Copyright 1968?), p. 8]
                  > > >
                  > > > In November 1967 Rebazar Tarzs was mentioned in Search
                  > Magazine.
                  > > >
                  > > > http://tinyurl.com/384e7te
                  > > >
                  > > > In 1968, Brad Steiger was featured as guest speaker at the
                  > 2nd Eck World Wide Seminar (I believe). There is a picture of Paul
                  > Twitchell at lower right corner here:
                  > > >
                  > > > http://sites.google.com/site/pthswiki/
                  > > >
                  > > > Moreover, 1968 was the year of the first Wisdom Note
                  > (January 1968) which, I believe, Paul said were to have no charge on
                  > them. The 4th paragraph of the first W.N. mentioned Rebazar Tarzs and
                  > other "masters". (For those with the W.N. book take a look at that
                  > paragraph for context.) From what I remember, those "masters" would be
                  > in communication with some people and giving them instructions,
                  > according to Paul.
                  > > >
                  > > > Darwin Gross and Patti Simpson came to Eckankar in 1968, I
                  > believe.
                  > > >
                  > > > BY this point, 1968, key Eckankar terms were being
                  > introduced - such as "ECK Master" and "living ECK Master", I believe.
                  > Eventually, "Mahanta" would show up (by 1969, I believe). Books from
                  > 1968 include:
                  > > > All About ECK, The Key to ECKANKAR, THE KANDJUR, and IN MY
                  > SOUL I AM FREE (Brad Steiger). (Not sure if THE KANDJUR was available
                  > to the public.)
                  > > >
                  > > > ************************
                  > > >
                  > > > So, The Tiger's Fang was one of the first published
                  > Eckankar books with mention of Rebazar Tarzs (1967). And (about that
                  > book) Brad Steiger wrote in a forward: "Whether The Tiger's Fang is a
                  > record of an actual spiritual journey or the vivid impression of a
                  > vision that had been granted to few mortal men, must remain a matter
                  > for the individual reader to judge. [....]" Of course, that was Brad
                  > Steiger. And that was the 1960's.
                  > > >
                  > > > Harold Klemp - leader of Eckankar for about the last 30
                  > years now - in the early 1980s wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > "Paul encouraged people to read The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad
                  > ["Eckankar Bible"] and make their own study. He never said to take the
                  > words as holy, as the last word. You take the words and check out the
                  > teachings from within: Does this work for me or doesn't it? You have to
                  > know. And based upon what you know is how you conduct your life out
                  > here. This is what governs your relationship with your friends and your
                  > family. It governs every aspect of you in the lower worlds, including
                  > your ethics and morality."
                  > > >
                  > > > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/writings.html#ideal
                  > > >
                  > > > I like the part about "You have to know." Sounds good,
                  > doesn't it?
                  > > > And I'd like to apply this to all of the writings / sayings /
                  > words by anybody. Period!
                  > > >
                  > > > In any case, The Tiger's Fang (the title) comes from a
                  > story told at the back of the book where a person tries to present an
                  > imitation tiger's fang for the real thing. (Curious that. IMO.)
                  > > >
                  > > > On p. 170 of the book (Rumi speaking?): "The moral of this
                  > story is that one should first pull the tiger's fang before telling the
                  > world that he is the killer of tigers."
                  > > >
                  > > > It begs the question (IMO) whether there were / are
                  > "imitations" in any of the Eckankar writings.
                  > > >
                  > > > One other curious thing Paul added to The Tiger's Fang.
                  > Near the very end of the book, where Rumi is speaking, Paul writes (p.
                  > 173):
                  > > >
                  > > > "A fight between two, wild shaggy men interrupted the
                  > words flowing from Rumi. He looked up and watched them tumbling about
                  > the floor of the Inn. Smiling he said, 'Let them fight, Let them kill
                  > one another. That is their free will and their burden and not for us to
                  > interfere unless we take upon ourselves a part of their karma. Not that
                  > we should never feel the lack of sympathy but never invite yourself to
                  > take the burden of another.' [....]"
                  > > >
                  > > > In all, The Tiger's Fang was more than just an
                  > introduction to Rebazar Tarzs ("leading advocate of Eckankar"). It
                  > included several others. Like spiritual travelers ("masters") living on
                  > other planes, along with lords and rulers of other planes. It even
                  > included talks with historical figures from Earth's past.
                  > > >
                  > > > "Imitations" any of them?
                  > > >
                  > > > This is what I "have to" know. And if Eckankar can help to
                  > clarify what is the truth along these lines I believe it incumbent on
                  > the organization to do so. Afterall: "THEY OWN IT!"
                  > > >
                  > > > Etznab
                  > > >
                  > > Paul did send a copy of the Manuscript to Kirpal Singh and
                  > Kirpal said it was not accurate as far as most of the content. That was
                  > the end of his relationship with Kirpal!
                  > > I have to say that as far as Pauls writings they were all from his
                  > very vivid imagination. The books "The Drums of ECK", The Talons of
                  > Time" are pure Si Fi.
                  > > Darwin had me up to his place in San Fran. He wanted me to a comic
                  > book on him. He rambled so much I could"nt take notes. He did tell me
                  > he was originaly from Venus. Needless to say no comic book of Darwin
                  > ever was made. At that time I still believed in Eckankar and so it was
                  > very confusing to me. I had to do some mental gymnastics so I could
                  > still believe. I was'nt ready to call It a Fraud yet. It's amazing what
                  > one will do to keep something you believe in with all your heart true.
                  > I said to my self "He's the Mahanta so I should'nt judge him" The Kal
                  > is making me doubt him.
                  > > This was an experience that served me well in the future to
                  > question and investigate befor I decide if something is true or not.
                  > > Diana
                  > >
                  >
                • prometheus_973
                  Hello Diana, Thanks for enlightening us about Letters to Gail. I always thought it was a little too preachy to be real. Paul probably wrote them in the
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jan 3, 2011
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                    Hello Diana,
                    Thanks for enlightening us about
                    "Letters to Gail." I always thought
                    it was a little too preachy to be real.

                    Paul probably "wrote" them in the
                    beginnings of Eckankar when he
                    needed to start selling himself to
                    the public. By this time he and Gail
                    had been married for at least two
                    or three years. What's the copyright
                    date on "Letters to Gail?"

                    That's interesting that Gail had/has
                    a twin sister. I wonder how much her
                    twin paid for Sunasu? I'm thinking that
                    Sunasu Vitamins are still being sold.

                    Prometheus

                    dianastanley wrote:

                    The Letters to Gail. wer'nt really
                    letters paul wrote and posted to Gail.

                    He made them up so it seemed he
                    was educating her so she knew what
                    she got into when she married him.

                    What a caring man to write that many
                    letters to his future wife!!!

                    Gail sold Sunasu to her twin sister.

                    Diana
                  • dianastanley43
                    ... I don t know the date he wrote them I know I could t wait for the second copy to come out. I thought they were info for us who just got in Eck. I m working
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jan 3, 2011
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                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hello Diana,
                      > Thanks for enlightening us about
                      > "Letters to Gail." I always thought
                      > it was a little too preachy to be real.
                      >
                      > Paul probably "wrote" them in the
                      > beginnings of Eckankar when he
                      > needed to start selling himself to
                      > the public. By this time he and Gail
                      > had been married for at least two
                      > or three years. What's the copyright
                      > date on "Letters to Gail?"
                      >
                      > That's interesting that Gail had/has
                      > a twin sister. I wonder how much her

                      I don"t know the date he wrote them I know I could't wait for the second copy to come out. I thought they were info for us who just got in Eck.
                      I'm working on a catalog of my most recent paintings that are now in print. So when I get tired of work I click on here and have coffee with you guys!
                      > twin paid for Sunasu? I'm thinking that
                      > Sunasu Vitamins are still being sold.
                      >
                      > Prometheus
                      >
                      > dianastanley wrote:
                      >
                      > The Letters to Gail. wer'nt really
                      > letters paul wrote and posted to Gail.
                      >
                      > He made them up so it seemed he
                      > was educating her so she knew what
                      > she got into when she married him.
                      >
                      > What a caring man to write that many
                      > letters to his future wife!!!
                      >
                      > Gail sold Sunasu to her twin sister.
                      >
                      > Diana
                      >
                    • etznab@aol.com
                      The first letter is dated December 6th, 1962. The following words appear on the first page (in italics): ECKANKAR ECK Master Rebazar Tarzs MAHANTA This was
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jan 3, 2011
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                        The first letter is dated December 6th, 1962. The following words
                        appear on the first page (in italics):

                        ECKANKAR

                        ECK Master

                        Rebazar Tarzs

                        MAHANTA

                        This was supposedly the year 1962! Do you think those words appeared in
                        the original? Or did Gail and Darwin (somebody) do some editing?

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Mon, Jan 3, 2011 1:36 pm
                        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Letters to Gail and Her Sunasu

                         
                        Hello Diana,
                        Thanks for enlightening us about
                        "Letters to Gail." I always thought
                        it was a little too preachy to be real.

                        Paul probably "wrote" them in the
                        beginnings of Eckankar when he
                        needed to start selling himself to
                        the public. By this time he and Gail
                        had been married for at least two
                        or three years. What's the copyright
                        date on "Letters to Gail?"

                        That's interesting that Gail had/has
                        a twin sister. I wonder how much her
                        twin paid for Sunasu? I'm thinking that
                        Sunasu Vitamins are still being sold.

                        Prometheus

                        dianastanley wrote:

                        The Letters to Gail. wer'nt really
                        letters paul wrote and posted to Gail.

                        He made them up so it seemed he
                        was educating her so she knew what
                        she got into when she married him.

                        What a caring man to write that many
                        letters to his future wife!!!

                        Gail sold Sunasu to her twin sister.

                        Diana
                      • prometheus_973
                        Hello Etznab, It doesn t matter what the date was on the phony letter. It too is phony. Diana said that Twit did these letters after he and Gail were married
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jan 3, 2011
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                          Hello Etznab,
                          It doesn't matter what the date
                          was on the phony letter. It too is
                          phony. Diana said that Twit did
                          these letters "after" he and Gail
                          were married and they were married
                          in 1963. The key is the copyright
                          date in the book and I know it has
                          to be after Jan. 1, 1969 because
                          "Mahanta" wasn't mentioned until
                          then. Twitchell was a conman and
                          liar and did all sorts of reediting,
                          plagiarism, substitution, etc.

                          etznab@... wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > The first letter is dated December 6th, 1962. The following words
                          > appear on the first page (in italics):
                          >
                          > ECKANKAR
                          >
                          > ECK Master
                          >
                          > Rebazar Tarzs
                          >
                          > MAHANTA
                          >
                          > This was supposedly the year 1962! Do you think those words appeared in
                          > the original? Or did Gail and Darwin (somebody) do some editing?
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                          > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Mon, Jan 3, 2011 1:36 pm
                          > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Letters to Gail and Her Sunasu
                          >
                          >  
                          > Hello Diana,
                          > Thanks for enlightening us about
                          > "Letters to Gail." I always thought
                          > it was a little too preachy to be real.
                          >
                          > Paul probably "wrote" them in the
                          > beginnings of Eckankar when he
                          > needed to start selling himself to
                          > the public. By this time he and Gail
                          > had been married for at least two
                          > or three years. What's the copyright
                          > date on "Letters to Gail?"
                          >
                          > That's interesting that Gail had/has
                          > a twin sister. I wonder how much her
                          > twin paid for Sunasu? I'm thinking that
                          > Sunasu Vitamins are still being sold.
                          >
                          > Prometheus
                          >
                          > dianastanley wrote:
                          >
                          > The Letters to Gail. wer'nt really
                          > letters paul wrote and posted to Gail.
                          >
                          > He made them up so it seemed he
                          > was educating her so she knew what
                          > she got into when she married him.
                          >
                          > What a caring man to write that many
                          > letters to his future wife!!!
                          >
                          > Gail sold Sunasu to her twin sister.
                          >
                          > Diana
                          >
                        • dianastanley43
                          ... Diana
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jan 3, 2011
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                            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hello Etznab,
                            > It doesn't matter what the date
                            > was on the phony letter. It too is
                            > phony. Diana said that Twit did
                            > these letters "after" he and Gail
                            > were married and they were married
                            > in 1963. The key is the copyright
                            > date in the book and I know it has
                            > to be after Jan. 1, 1969 because
                            > "Mahanta" wasn't mentioned until
                            > then. Twitchell was a conman and
                            > liar and did all sorts of reediting,
                            > plagiarism, substitution, etc.
                            >
                            > etznab@ wrote:
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > The first letter is dated December 6th, 1962. The following words
                            > > appear on the first page (in italics):
                            > >
                            > > ECKANKAR
                            > >
                            > > ECK Master
                            > >
                            > > Rebazar Tarzs
                            > >
                            > > MAHANTA
                            > >
                            > > This was supposedly the year 1962! Do you think those words appeared in
                            > > the original? Or did Gail and Darwin (somebody) do some editing?
                            > >
                            > > -----Original Message-----
                            > > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@>
                            > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                            > > Sent: Mon, Jan 3, 2011 1:36 pm
                            > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Letters to Gail and Her Sunasu
                            > >
                            > >  
                            > > Hello Diana,
                            > > Thanks for enlightening us about
                            > > "Letters to Gail." I always thought
                            > > it was a little too preachy to be real.
                            > >
                            > > Paul probably "wrote" them in the
                            > > beginnings of Eckankar when he
                            > > needed to start selling himself to
                            > > the public. By this time he and Gail
                            > > had been married for at least two
                            > > or three years. What's the copyright
                            > > date on "Letters to Gail?"
                            > >
                            > > That's interesting that Gail had/has
                            > > a twin sister. I wonder how much her
                            > > twin paid for Sunasu? I'm thinking that
                            > > Sunasu Vitamins are still being sold.
                            > >
                            > > Prometheus
                            > >
                            > > dianastanley wrote:
                            > >
                            > > The Letters to Gail. wer'nt really
                            > > letters paul wrote and posted to Gail.
                            > >
                            > > He made them up so it seemed he
                            > > was educating her so she knew what
                            > > she got into when she married him.
                            > >
                            > > What a caring man to write that many
                            > > letters to his future wife!!!
                            > >
                            > > Gail sold Sunasu to her twin sister.
                            > >
                            > > Diana
                            > >
                            > I don't know when Paul wrote the letters to Gail. I always figured they lived togeather befor they were married,Just my opinion.
                            Diana
                          • etznab@aol.com
                            I didn t know that before. What Diana said. I assumed the letters were written on the dates assigned to them in the book. After all, they are all dated at the
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jan 3, 2011
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                              I didn't know that before. What Diana said. I assumed the letters were
                              written on the dates assigned to them in the book. After all, they are
                              all dated at the beginning of each letter.

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Mon, Jan 3, 2011 8:44 pm
                              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Letters to Gail and Her Sunasu

                               
                              Hello Etznab,
                              It doesn't matter what the date
                              was on the phony letter. It too is
                              phony. Diana said that Twit did
                              these letters "after" he and Gail
                              were married and they were married
                              in 1963. The key is the copyright
                              date in the book and I know it has
                              to be after Jan. 1, 1969 because
                              "Mahanta" wasn't mentioned until
                              then. Twitchell was a conman and
                              liar and did all sorts of reediting,
                              plagiarism, substitution, etc.

                              etznab@... wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > The first letter is dated December 6th, 1962. The following words
                              > appear on the first page (in italics):
                              >
                              > ECKANKAR
                              >
                              > ECK Master
                              >
                              > Rebazar Tarzs
                              >
                              > MAHANTA
                              >
                              > This was supposedly the year 1962! Do you think those words
                              appeared in
                              > the original? Or did Gail and Darwin (somebody) do some editing?
                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                              > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Mon, Jan 3, 2011 1:36 pm
                              > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Letters to Gail and Her
                              Sunasu
                              >
                              >  
                              > Hello Diana,
                              > Thanks for enlightening us about
                              > "Letters to Gail." I always thought
                              > it was a little too preachy to be real.
                              >
                              > Paul probably "wrote" them in the
                              > beginnings of Eckankar when he
                              > needed to start selling himself to
                              > the public. By this time he and Gail
                              > had been married for at least two
                              > or three years. What's the copyright
                              > date on "Letters to Gail?"
                              >
                              > That's interesting that Gail had/has
                              > a twin sister. I wonder how much her
                              > twin paid for Sunasu? I'm thinking that
                              > Sunasu Vitamins are still being sold.
                              >
                              > Prometheus
                              >
                              > dianastanley wrote:
                              >
                              > The Letters to Gail. wer'nt really
                              > letters paul wrote and posted to Gail.
                              >
                              > He made them up so it seemed he
                              > was educating her so she knew what
                              > she got into when she married him.
                              >
                              > What a caring man to write that many
                              > letters to his future wife!!!
                              >
                              > Gail sold Sunasu to her twin sister.
                              >
                              > Diana
                              >
                            • prometheus_973
                              Hello Diana and Etznab, Okay, I thought Diana said that they were married at the time of the letters. I think that Paul did post dated them for the time he was
                              Message 14 of 17 , Jan 3, 2011
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                                Hello Diana and Etznab,
                                Okay, I thought Diana said that
                                they were married at the time of
                                the letters. I think that Paul did
                                post dated them for the time
                                he was in California and Gail was
                                still in Seattle. Then, Paul claims
                                he sent for her or something like
                                that and they were married. I still
                                believe, as Diana does, that they
                                were together when he wrote them.
                                If the truth be known, Gail probably
                                typed them for Twit.

                                But, one thing is clear. These letters
                                were reedited. The proof is with the
                                1969 term "Mahanta." Look at everything
                                else written. It is impossible for Paul
                                to have used this term before 1969.

                                Prometheus

                                dianastanley43@...> wrote:
                                >
                                I don't know when Paul wrote the letters to Gail.
                                I always figured they lived togeather befor they
                                were married, Just my opinion.
                                Diana
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Hello Etznab,
                                > > It doesn't matter what the date
                                > > was on the phony letter. It too is
                                > > phony. Diana said that Twit did
                                > > these letters "after" he and Gail
                                > > were married and they were married
                                > > in 1963. The key is the copyright
                                > > date in the book and I know it has
                                > > to be after Jan. 1, 1969 because
                                > > "Mahanta" wasn't mentioned until
                                > > then. Twitchell was a conman and
                                > > liar and did all sorts of reediting,
                                > > plagiarism, substitution, etc.
                                > >
                                > > etznab@ wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > The first letter is dated December 6th, 1962. The following words
                                > > > appear on the first page (in italics):
                                > > >
                                > > > ECKANKAR
                                > > >
                                > > > ECK Master
                                > > >
                                > > > Rebazar Tarzs
                                > > >
                                > > > MAHANTA
                                > > >
                                > > > This was supposedly the year 1962! Do you think those words appeared in
                                > > > the original? Or did Gail and Darwin (somebody) do some editing?
                                > > >
                                > > > -----Original Message-----
                                > > > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@>
                                > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                > > > Sent: Mon, Jan 3, 2011 1:36 pm
                                > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Letters to Gail and Her Sunasu
                                > > >
                                > > >  
                                > > > Hello Diana,
                                > > > Thanks for enlightening us about
                                > > > "Letters to Gail." I always thought
                                > > > it was a little too preachy to be real.
                                > > >
                                > > > Paul probably "wrote" them in the
                                > > > beginnings of Eckankar when he
                                > > > needed to start selling himself to
                                > > > the public. By this time he and Gail
                                > > > had been married for at least two
                                > > > or three years. What's the copyright
                                > > > date on "Letters to Gail?"
                                > > >
                                > > > That's interesting that Gail had/has
                                > > > a twin sister. I wonder how much her
                                > > > twin paid for Sunasu? I'm thinking that
                                > > > Sunasu Vitamins are still being sold.
                                > > >
                                > > > Prometheus
                                > > >
                                > > > dianastanley wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > The Letters to Gail. wer'nt really
                                > > > letters paul wrote and posted to Gail.
                                > > >
                                > > > He made them up so it seemed he
                                > > > was educating her so she knew what
                                > > > she got into when she married him.
                                > > >
                                > > > What a caring man to write that many
                                > > > letters to his future wife!!!
                                > > >
                                > > > Gail sold Sunasu to her twin sister.
                                > > >
                                > > > Diana
                                > > >
                                > > I don't know when Paul wrote the letters to Gail. I always figured they lived togeather befor they were married,Just my opinion.
                                > Diana
                                >
                              • etznab@aol.com
                                Paul said so himself around 1969 that the term was new information , I believe. For reference, check out Chela Workshop - Los Angeles, CA - February 14th,
                                Message 15 of 17 , Jan 3, 2011
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                                  Paul said so himself around 1969 that the term was "new information", I
                                  believe.

                                  For reference, check out Chela Workshop - Los Angeles, CA - February
                                  14th, 1969: Audio cassette 48104 - side two - last five to ten minutes
                                  of tape.

                                  This is just one other reason I believe the term came out around 1969.
                                  Not seven years earlier in 1962. Heck, Eckankar wasn't even officially
                                  founded until 1965.

                                  Etznab

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Mon, Jan 3, 2011 9:39 pm
                                  Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Letters to Gail and Her Sunasu

                                   
                                  Hello Diana and Etznab,
                                  Okay, I thought Diana said that
                                  they were married at the time of
                                  the letters. I think that Paul did
                                  post dated them for the time
                                  he was in California and Gail was
                                  still in Seattle. Then, Paul claims
                                  he sent for her or something like
                                  that and they were married. I still
                                  believe, as Diana does, that they
                                  were together when he wrote them.
                                  If the truth be known, Gail probably
                                  typed them for Twit.

                                  But, one thing is clear. These letters
                                  were reedited. The proof is with the
                                  1969 term "Mahanta." Look at everything
                                  else written. It is impossible for Paul
                                  to have used this term before 1969.

                                  Prometheus

                                  dianastanley43@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  I don't know when Paul wrote the letters to Gail.
                                  I always figured they lived togeather befor they
                                  were married, Just my opinion.
                                  Diana
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                                  "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Hello Etznab,
                                  > > It doesn't matter what the date
                                  > > was on the phony letter. It too is
                                  > > phony. Diana said that Twit did
                                  > > these letters "after" he and Gail
                                  > > were married and they were married
                                  > > in 1963. The key is the copyright
                                  > > date in the book and I know it has
                                  > > to be after Jan. 1, 1969 because
                                  > > "Mahanta" wasn't mentioned until
                                  > > then. Twitchell was a conman and
                                  > > liar and did all sorts of reediting,
                                  > > plagiarism, substitution, etc.
                                  > >
                                  > > etznab@ wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > The first letter is dated December 6th, 1962. The
                                  following words
                                  > > > appear on the first page (in italics):
                                  > > >
                                  > > > ECKANKAR
                                  > > >
                                  > > > ECK Master
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Rebazar Tarzs
                                  > > >
                                  > > > MAHANTA
                                  > > >
                                  > > > This was supposedly the year 1962! Do you think those
                                  words appeared in
                                  > > > the original? Or did Gail and Darwin (somebody) do some
                                  editing?
                                  > > >
                                  > > > -----Original Message-----
                                  > > > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@>
                                  > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > > Sent: Mon, Jan 3, 2011 1:36 pm
                                  > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Letters to
                                  Gail and Her Sunasu
                                  > > >
                                  > > >  
                                  > > > Hello Diana,
                                  > > > Thanks for enlightening us about
                                  > > > "Letters to Gail." I always thought
                                  > > > it was a little too preachy to be real.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Paul probably "wrote" them in the
                                  > > > beginnings of Eckankar when he
                                  > > > needed to start selling himself to
                                  > > > the public. By this time he and Gail
                                  > > > had been married for at least two
                                  > > > or three years. What's the copyright
                                  > > > date on "Letters to Gail?"
                                  > > >
                                  > > > That's interesting that Gail had/has
                                  > > > a twin sister. I wonder how much her
                                  > > > twin paid for Sunasu? I'm thinking that
                                  > > > Sunasu Vitamins are still being sold.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Prometheus
                                  > > >
                                  > > > dianastanley wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > The Letters to Gail. wer'nt really
                                  > > > letters paul wrote and posted to Gail.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > He made them up so it seemed he
                                  > > > was educating her so she knew what
                                  > > > she got into when she married him.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > What a caring man to write that many
                                  > > > letters to his future wife!!!
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Gail sold Sunasu to her twin sister.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Diana
                                  > > >
                                  > > I don't know when Paul wrote the letters to Gail. I always
                                  figured they lived togeather befor they were married,Just my opinion.
                                  > Diana
                                  >
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