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Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] "I Am Always With You" - The Real Meaning

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  • etznab@aol.com
    The guru always with you paradigm, I believe that was old hat during the time of Julian Johnson in the 1930s. In other words, what surfaced in Eckankar dogma
    Message 1 of 6 , Nov 2, 2010
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      The guru always with you paradigm, I believe that was
      old hat during the time of Julian Johnson in the 1930s.
      In other words, what surfaced in Eckankar dogma as
      "I am always with you" was not a novel creation. IMO.

      The way Julian Johnson wrote in his book The Path of
      the Masters, it was my impression that he idolized the
      "living master" paradigm. And if it's true what was said
      about Paul Twitchell writing his guru Kirpal Singh for a
      number of years, I believe Paul was keen on promoting
      the importance of a living master ("guru") as well.

      I've often tried to discover where the idolization of one
      single master at a time (as representative God) arose
      in human history. It probably goes back to Jesus and
      even before that.

      The purpose for a living master, as I understand it, is
      for having a way to update the spiritual teachings. Yet
      common sense tells me that every single individual is
      at liberty to update spiritual teachings as well, with the
      truth! Appointing one person as top dog, however, and
      one who's word trump's that of all others would only be
      nice if that person was truly enlightened more than all
      other persons. If they are not, however, and if they go
      about adding fictions & pseudo religion / history to the
      spiritual teachings, it can cause a serious problem, in
      my opinion. Especially if the fictions and pseudo man-
      made religion / history are propagated as literal truth.
      Why would a master / guru do that? I can surmise it
      basically says that human consciousness is limited
      and most gurus / masters are simply playing the part
      of God. LIke as if there were a costume children could
      go dress on Halloween as. But most masters look and
      are as human as anybody else and there is no special
      costume. The "costumes" are the "titles", IMO, that
      other people associate as the designations of spiritual
      hierarchy. Popes, Bishops, Priests, Pastors, Masters
      and Gurus's etc. Putting "The" in front of the title Living
      Master gives people the sense of "there can be only
      one", IMO. Deriving credibility via guru lineage for the
      living guru, after using fictional characters to animate
      such lineage is unpardonable, IMO. It's not only with
      the Eckankar dogma, but other paths have fabricated
      their own lineages just as well. Including additions of
      pseudo man-made religion / history. It's a "red flag" to
      discover such things about one's own religious organ-
      ization. Even more difficult is having to rationalize why
      it's OK for masters and clergy to not come clean with
      the truth. What are they thinking?

      Etznab

      -----Original Message-----
      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Mon, Nov 1, 2010 9:35 pm
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] "I Am Always With You" - The Real
      Meaning

       
      ECKists have replaced one "God" for another.
      Sure, they call "Him" by a different name but
      in essence it's merely a revised substitution.

      In ECKankar the members see themselves
      "as" Soul versus having "a" Soul. There's
      no separate identity between human and
      divine. According to ECKankar, you (we)
      are Soul and are a part of the Divine, but
      are living in a physical shell (body). And,
      there are other "bodies" that also "protect"
      Soul from the coarse "vibrations" of the
      "Lower" Planes. Therefore, everyone's true
      identity is that of Being... a Divine Soul.
      It just "IS." Personally, I think that much
      of this needed "protection" for Soul is B.S.,
      and Soul is not affected by "lower" vibrations.
      It's a myth!

      Klemp likes to say, "I Am Always With You"
      when he signs off.

      But what does this really mean? Eckists seem
      to have an identity crisis since they are constantly
      being separated from their identity as Soul
      via Klemp's dogma involving his rank above
      them and all other Souls.

      Soul is a Divine part of the "ECK" as is the
      Mahanta... there is actually no difference.
      And, according to EK Teachings Soul equals
      Soul. This means that Klemp is No Higher or
      more valued than any other Soul. But, is this
      the case? Not quite. With Klemp it's an Ego
      thing and he needs to be the Top Dog on both
      the outer and inner. Twitchell started this myth.
      In reality, on the "inner," HK's equal to all
      other Souls, and he hates this truth. This isn't
      the reality with how PT created the ECK teachings
      and how they are practiced. Being a LEM/Mahanta
      is a flawed concept because Twitchell needed
      to be the Top Dog as Klemp does. Basically, it's
      a Bait and Switch!

      All Souls are Always With one another. Right?
      I really don't buy the "plane" thing with the
      numbers and the judgment and the homework
      and the tests and of separating Soul in classes
      like wheat from the chaff etc. It doesn't make
      sense in this day and age. When EKies speak
      about "the Sugmad Worlds," or whatever, why
      do they accept old hearsay versions from invisible/
      living Masters who are hundreds and thousands
      of years old. It's immature mental plane fantasy!

      Each Soul is as much of the "I AM" as any other
      Soul. In actuality, there are No initiations and
      rankings in the God Worlds. Really, how can it
      be? Initiations can't exist and neither can gender!
      If anything, there should only be 4 initiations.
      Therefore there are no male or female ECK Masters
      nor images i.e. drawings/photos. Every Soul
      is a Master. Its human counterpart needs
      to recognize this and and live it.

      BTW, Women are the equals of Men and should
      be treated as such, and Soul is the equal to
      every other Soul and should be treated as such.

      Limitations are both recognized and created
      by the finite mind for/by itself, naturally. Even
      the imagination has limitations. It's really too
      bad when I hear and see longtime H.I.s parrot
      the, "I Am Always With You" idiom. They must
      be tired of thinking and, therefore, just repeat
      the old words and phrases that have stuck in
      their memories.

      Sure, it's kind of touchy and feely and sounds
      like a mystical and/or religious promise of
      sorts. I guess it's supposed to reenforce hope
      and the belief that the "Mahanta" (God) is always
      there standing in the wings and looking after
      you. It doesn't happen of course but it feels
      good to think that someone cares and has your
      back just in case the worst happens (as it
      eventually will). Those imaginative EK heavens
      are awaiting and that feels good. That's why
      religions work so well and are so popular with
      people. But, that's part of the problem too.

      BTW, why aren't H.I.s "Always With You?"
      According to Klemp in his "Autobiography"
      (pg. 385) "God" is of the 4th Mental Plane
      but does all kinds of Miracles, etc. H.I.s are
      "Higher" than this "God" so why can't these
      H.I.s "Always Be With You" or "With" one
      another? A lie is not a paradox! ECK "stories"
      are mental plane experiences coming from
      this same 4th plane "God" (Kal) source.

      Soul equals Soul means that we are all the
      same and, yet, unique. Klemp has stolen
      Soul's equality, identity, and uniqueness
      and ECKists haven't noticed. I pity them
      with their delusions, but then again, I can
      understand why many have found solace
      in religion and on running on auto pilot.
      I just can't understand why those H.I.s
      who appear to have more going for them,
      or seem to be stronger and more astute
      continue to play Klemp's game and live
      their lives under his shadow with so many
      "spiritual" restraints and delusions. Maybe
      for many of those working at the ESC it's
      simply job security to play the game.
      That's what Klemp did with Darwin.

      Prometheus
    • prometheus_973
      Hello Etznab, I agree with you. The reason I approached the ECK version of I Am Always With You from this other perspective of Soul, and in regard to dead
      Message 2 of 6 , Nov 3, 2010
      • 0 Attachment
        Hello Etznab,
        I agree with you. The reason I approached
        the ECK version of "I Am Always With You"
        from this other perspective of Soul, and
        in regard to dead loved ones, is that I saw
        a very highly respected ECKist use it both
        ways. She spouts the Mahanta crap and
        then applies the same I Am Always You
        to her dead loved ones being Always With
        her and her with them.

        With ECKists this concept of "I Am Always
        With You" probably applies to pets as well.
        Perhaps the dead pets are now seen as being
        "animal angels." Actually, in ECKankar, there's
        more focus and books written about "Animal
        Angels" than on human angels (Soul)! Why's
        that? Probably because Human Angels versus
        Animal Angels would give some competition
        to Klemp and to the ECK Master myths. This
        is why the topic of (human/people) Angels
        is avoided by ECKists. In EK any human angel
        becomes a mysterious minor being or an
        ECK Master... never anything in-between
        or as a loved one who has passed. Only Klemp
        (the Mahanta) is permitted to "watch over"
        or to "assist" the living, except, he doesn't!

        The purpose of a Living Master is to have
        more and better control over the faithful.
        Otherwise, there would be a schism and
        various clerics/masters would become leaders
        based upon their ability to communicate
        and decipher/interpret their holy scriptures.
        Living Masters can interpret scripture any
        way they want and twist it to fit their agendas.
        They are no other authorities over them,
        although, there are others that could do
        a better job and are more spiritual.

        Masters/Prophets are usually the ones
        who first led/taught people a specific
        dogma. The religion was created during
        this time frame or later by their followers.
        Thus, Twitchell was the Moses, Abraham
        and Mohammad of ECKankar. Klemp is
        simply a caretaker, like the Pope, posing
        as a Master/Mahanta.

        Prometheus


        Etznab wrote:

        The guru always with you paradigm, I believe that was
        old hat during the time of Julian Johnson in the 1930s.
        In other words, what surfaced in Eckankar dogma as
        "I am always with you" was not a novel creation. IMO.

        The way Julian Johnson wrote in his book The Path of
        the Masters, it was my impression that he idolized the
        "living master" paradigm. And if it's true what was said
        about Paul Twitchell writing his guru Kirpal Singh for a
        number of years, I believe Paul was keen on promoting
        the importance of a living master ("guru") as well.

        I've often tried to discover where the idolization of one
        single master at a time (as representative God) arose
        in human history. It probably goes back to Jesus and
        even before that.

        The purpose for a living master, as I understand it, is
        for having a way to update the spiritual teachings. Yet
        common sense tells me that every single individual is
        at liberty to update spiritual teachings as well, with the
        truth! Appointing one person as top dog, however, and
        one who's word trump's that of all others would only be
        nice if that person was truly enlightened more than all
        other persons. If they are not, however, and if they go
        about adding fictions & pseudo religion / history to the
        spiritual teachings, it can cause a serious problem, in
        my opinion. Especially if the fictions and pseudo man-
        made religion / history are propagated as literal truth.
        Why would a master / guru do that? I can surmise it
        basically says that human consciousness is limited
        and most gurus / masters are simply playing the part
        of God. LIke as if there were a costume children could
        go dress on Halloween as. But most masters look and
        are as human as anybody else and there is no special
        costume. The "costumes" are the "titles", IMO, that
        other people associate as the designations of spiritual
        hierarchy. Popes, Bishops, Priests, Pastors, Masters
        and Gurus's etc. Putting "The" in front of the title Living
        Master gives people the sense of "there can be only
        one", IMO. Deriving credibility via guru lineage for the
        living guru, after using fictional characters to animate
        such lineage is unpardonable, IMO. It's not only with
        the Eckankar dogma, but other paths have fabricated
        their own lineages just as well. Including additions of
        pseudo man-made religion / history. It's a "red flag" to
        discover such things about one's own religious organ-
        ization. Even more difficult is having to rationalize why
        it's OK for masters and clergy to not come clean with
        the truth. What are they thinking?

        Etznab

        Prometheus wrote:

        ECKists have replaced one "God" for another.
        Sure, they call "Him" by a different name but
        in essence it's merely a revised substitution.

        In ECKankar the members see themselves
        "as" Soul versus having "a" Soul. There's
        no separate identity between human and
        divine. According to ECKankar, you (we)
        are Soul and are a part of the Divine, but
        are living in a physical shell (body). And,
        there are other "bodies" that also "protect"
        Soul from the coarse "vibrations" of the
        "Lower" Planes. Therefore, everyone's true
        identity is that of Being... a Divine Soul.
        It just "IS." Personally, I think that much
        of this needed "protection" for Soul is B.S.,
        and Soul is not affected by "lower" vibrations.
        It's a myth!

        Klemp likes to say, "I Am Always With You"
        when he signs off.

        But what does this really mean? Eckists seem
        to have an identity crisis since they are constantly
        being separated from their identity as Soul
        via Klemp's dogma involving his rank above
        them and all other Souls.

        Soul is a Divine part of the "ECK" as is the
        Mahanta... there is actually no difference.
        And, according to EK Teachings Soul equals
        Soul. This means that Klemp is No Higher or
        more valued than any other Soul. But, is this
        the case? Not quite. With Klemp it's an Ego
        thing and he needs to be the Top Dog on both
        the outer and inner. Twitchell started this myth.
        In reality, on the "inner," HK's equal to all
        other Souls, and he hates this truth. This isn't
        the reality with how PT created the ECK teachings
        and how they are practiced. Being a LEM/Mahanta
        is a flawed concept because Twitchell needed
        to be the Top Dog as Klemp does. Basically, it's
        a Bait and Switch!

        All Souls are Always With one another. Right?
        I really don't buy the "plane" thing with the
        numbers and the judgment and the homework
        and the tests and of separating Soul in classes
        like wheat from the chaff etc. It doesn't make
        sense in this day and age. When EKies speak
        about "the Sugmad Worlds," or whatever, why
        do they accept old hearsay versions from invisible/
        living Masters who are hundreds and thousands
        of years old. It's immature mental plane fantasy!

        Each Soul is as much of the "I AM" as any other
        Soul. In actuality, there are No initiations and
        rankings in the God Worlds. Really, how can it
        be? Initiations can't exist and neither can gender!
        If anything, there should only be 4 initiations.
        Therefore there are no male or female ECK Masters
        nor images i.e. drawings/photos. Every Soul
        is a Master. Its human counterpart needs
        to recognize this and and live it.

        BTW, Women are the equals of Men and should
        be treated as such, and Soul is the equal to
        every other Soul and should be treated as such.

        Limitations are both recognized and created
        by the finite mind for/by itself, naturally. Even
        the imagination has limitations. It's really too
        bad when I hear and see longtime H.I.s parrot
        the, "I Am Always With You" idiom. They must
        be tired of thinking and, therefore, just repeat
        the old words and phrases that have stuck in
        their memories.

        Sure, it's kind of touchy and feely and sounds
        like a mystical and/or religious promise of
        sorts. I guess it's supposed to reenforce hope
        and the belief that the "Mahanta" (God) is always
        there standing in the wings and looking after
        you. It doesn't happen of course but it feels
        good to think that someone cares and has your
        back just in case the worst happens (as it
        eventually will). Those imaginative EK heavens
        are awaiting and that feels good. That's why
        religions work so well and are so popular with
        people. But, that's part of the problem too.

        BTW, why aren't H.I.s "Always With You?"
        According to Klemp in his "Autobiography"
        (pg. 385) "God" is of the 4th Mental Plane
        but does all kinds of Miracles, etc. H.I.s are
        "Higher" than this "God" so why can't these
        H.I.s "Always Be With You" or "With" one
        another? A lie is not a paradox! ECK "stories"
        are mental plane experiences coming from
        this same 4th plane "God" (Kal) source.

        Soul equals Soul means that we are all the
        same and, yet, unique. Klemp has stolen
        Soul's equality, identity, and uniqueness
        and ECKists haven't noticed. I pity them
        with their delusions, but then again, I can
        understand why many have found solace
        in religion and on running on auto pilot.
        I just can't understand why those H.I.s
        who appear to have more going for them,
        or seem to be stronger and more astute
        continue to play Klemp's game and live
        their lives under his shadow with so many
        "spiritual" restraints and delusions. Maybe
        for many of those working at the ESC it's
        simply job security to play the game.
        That's what Klemp did with Darwin.

        Prometheus
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