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Klemp: "Both Can Be Positive"

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  • prometheus_973
    In the June 2010 Mystic World Ask the Master is this Q&A by an Unknown ECKist: Q: In your story of the ecotour guide from your 2008 talk The Tensions of
    Message 1 of 5 , Oct 6, 2010
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      In the June 2010 Mystic World
      Ask the Master is this Q&A by
      an Unknown ECKist:

      Q: "In your story of the ecotour
      guide from your 2008 talk "The
      Tensions of Living," YOU GIVE
      PERMISSION to invite seekers
      on the inner (or that is how
      I understood it).

      And I have been doing that. For
      me, it seems like I am opening
      my heart with this inner invitation."

      [P]: Why do ECKists need permission
      from Klemp for doing the obvious
      or for doing anything? Are they
      that afraid and unsure? Yes! And
      if they aren't Klemp will get them
      back on track!

      Besides, this is an old technique
      (inviting non-ECKists via the inner).
      But, it doesn't work! Most Satsang
      Societies have always had poor
      newcomer attendance results.
      If Klemp was a true Mahanta/God
      he would be bringing them in.
      But, look at the number of Newcomers
      at any ECK Worldwide Seminar
      (about 100 or so people and
      many of these are repeats or
      relatives). Whose fault is that?
      Never Klemp's!

      Plus, this "feeling" that comes
      about by opening the Astral
      Heart Charka is normal/natural
      when one becomes introspective
      and empathetic.

      Q (cont.):
      "In the June 2007 Mystic World,
      you write that "the inner is for
      the inner, and the outer is for
      the outer."

      Can you help me understand?
      Is it an opening of my heart?"

      [P] First, the "inner" is Not for the
      inner only and the "outer" is not
      for the outer only. According to
      EK dogma doesn't the Astral,
      Causal, and Mental Planes all
      function as both Outer and Inner?
      Isn't this true of the consciousness
      from higher planes as well? However,
      I have to admit that these "Planes"
      with numbers and names, rulers,
      etc. seem like just another religious
      trap with imagined/mental fantasies.

      I do feel sorry for this young,
      naive, and confused ECKist having
      to ask Klemp for an ekplanation
      and doing so via a snail-mail letter.
      Apparently Klemp feels the need
      to share his correspondence/instructions
      with other equally confused ECKists
      via the Outer versus the Inner.

      Klemp's answer [my caps and bracketed

      "The first [the 2008 talk] opens a door,
      while the second [the 2007 article] addresses
      the Restrictions that Some would Impose
      on others.

      Both can be positive."

      [Recap: 2008 talk, permission given to
      invite people on the inner; 2007 article,
      inner is inner, outer is outer.]

      [P]: Is everyone just a bit confused?
      Is it that "both" the "outer" and "inner"
      can be "positive" as well? Plus, isn't
      being "positive" a lower plane desire
      and perspective since one is not being
      neutral? Aren't ECKists supposed to
      be neutral and detached versus seeking
      "positive" outcomes?

      Why do ECKists need to invite people
      on the inner? Let Spirit (the ECK) do
      it for It's Mahanta, or let the Mahanta
      invite them! Isn't inviting newcomers
      on the inner just another form of prayer
      and of manipulating people on a psychic

      Klemp: "However, the misuse of the
      second is more common. In this, an
      individual generally acts mainly on the
      outer, saying in effect, to another,
      'I got this on the inner that you should...'
      It is a control factor."

      [P]: So having ECKists get specific "outer"
      instructions from Klemp for what they
      can and can't do on both the Outer and
      the Inner Planes isn't "a control factor?"

      Klemp: "The speaker is posing as a
      demigod, at the expense of another.
      It is like saying, 'I have a direct line
      to the Mahanta; you don't. Not to
      worry, though. I'll be your go-between
      with the Master.' Call it Black Magic,
      for that is all it is."

      [P]: Apparently Klemp is the only one
      qualified to be a "demigod." LOL!
      See, this is what religion does. There
      always has to be a "go-between" for
      Soul and/or Spirit/God. And, see how
      Klemp throws out the term "Black Magic"
      to scare, threaten and control those
      ECKists who are discovering their own
      divinity outside of HK's religious confines.

      Klemp: "The first surely demonstrates
      an opening of your heart. You are
      extending an invitation for a guest
      to visit your home, and the recipient
      feels free to accept or to reject it."

      [P]: Apparently the ECK Law of Non-
      interference doesn't apply to Vahanas
      or to bringing in newcomers ($$$).
      True, people can reject the invitation
      but aren't they influenced and tricked
      unjustly and covertly (and without
      permission) in their dreams on the

      BTW- Why doesn't the All Knowing
      and All Powerful Mahanta do his part?
      Is it because of HK's Catch-22 rule
      that failure and low turnouts can only
      be blamed on others for their lack of:
      faith; belief; trust, consciousness; or
      for some other wrong doing?

      The Teflon Mahanta (Klemp) always
      seems to escape responsibility.


      prometheus wrote:
      Hello Jonathan and All,
      This H.I., Jeff MacHammer, needed an Arahata
      Training refresher course. One does not add
      to or correct a person who is sharing views/
      opinions, especially, at an EWS. Yes, being
      neither for nor against nor positive/negative
      sounds good but is impractical because we
      live in the lower worlds and read lower world
      materials (ECK crap too) and think lower world
      thoughts (this is the "testing ground for Soul")
      and all of it is both pos. and neg.... so what!
      But for some reason H.I.s think they are
      above it all. What good old Jeff said was
      more negative (Astral) than the positive
      perspective the Nigerian(?) Eckist was sharing.


      jonathan wrote:
      I'm going to give you another example of how Eckankar enforces it's
      teachings on its members and does not allow them to do their own thing
      or suggest things that they found useful.

      This happened at the Annandale, Virginia, Eck center in the early
      2000s. This Eck center held their worship services with the theater
      seating in a fairly large room, bigger than most Eck centers that I
      have been to. They had the standard procedure of an Eckist giving a
      talk to the attendees. Then there was an opportunity for people to ask
      questions or comment. There was a higher initiate named Jeff
      MacHammer. During the worship services, he would sit in the right rear
      of the room. His eyes would normally be closed while he was listening
      to the discussion that transpired. On the surface of things a really
      nice guy. However, there was something a little bit more nefarious
      going on with him as he quietly sat at the back of the room.

      I remember clearly one Sunday when I attended. During the discussion
      period, a black man from Africa. possibly Nigerian, but he could have
      been from any of the countries in sub-Sahara Africa, made a comment,
      actually a suggestion. A very nice gentleman. He was very exited about
      sharing something that was really helping him. So he volunteered his
      view that he had been having a lot of good results by using positive
      affirmations. He said that they were really helping him.

      Well, Jeff MacHammer, upon hearing this, arose from his apparent
      slumber, and made some comments. Now I am not going to paint Jeff in
      the wrong light. His comments were stated nicely. He was not rude. He
      was not overbearing. But his purpose was obvious even to me at that

      Jeff stated something about how positive affirmations were only at the
      level of the mind. Then he stated that in Eckankar, one should work
      from the soul level. I don't remember all the details of what he said,
      but he said at least said that much. So this poor gentleman from
      Africa, who had just had all the air let out of his honest
      recommendation to others, now must have felt very unappreciated.

      So what really happened here?
      1. An Eckists in a worship service made a recommendation based on his
      having good results with a technique not tacitly approved by Eckankar.
      2. A higher initiate of Eckankar sitting in the back of the room, and
      obviously playing the role of the Nazi-like enforcer of all things
      proper to Eckankar" tells the man "You are only functioning from the
      mental plane. You should instead be functioning from the soul plane.
      That's the Eckankar way."
      3. So the man who made the suggestion is now possibly saying to
      himself "That's the last time I ever speak up and make a positive
      suggestion to people." Or "Next time I'll make sure that whatever I
      say has been previously approved by Harold Klemp."

      My view is this. If the man from Africa was having good results, then
      why not let him stand up and tell others without being slammed down by
      the Nazi-like enforcer Jeff MacHammer who was obviously there to do
      just exactly what he did? To me the reason is obvious. This is just
      another example of how Eckankar enforces its belief system on its
      members. And the enforcement is total. Members of Eckankar can't do
      things "their own way." Not if their way is seriously out of step with
      Eckankar's rigid platform.

      And what is wrong with letting that African man speak his thoughts,
      and then letting the people in the room make up their own minds about
      whether his suggestion is good or not?

      Eckists will no doubt counter "Well, this was a worship service, and
      maybe there was a new person there, and that new person would get an
      inaccurate view of the Eck teachings."

      My reply to that is "Then just don't let anyone from the audience make
      comments or suggestions. If they really aren't allowed to speak their
      honest opinion then what is the purpose? If they can't speak their own
      opinion without being shot down by one of Eckankar's enforcers the
      whole thing is just a farce." The Eckists will contend "We Eckists have a
      and answer and comments period. You're just not allowed to say anything that
      counters the Eck teachings." It's not free speech, so just stop the
      farce. Make it like a Christian worship service. No questions or
      comments, and just let the sheeple go along with whatever the priests/
      mahdis tell them."

      One more thing, Eckists are probably going to say "You said Jeff was
      nice, but then you also said that Jeff slammed the guy down. That seem like an
      inconsistency" The fact is, this is often how Eckankar works. On the surface of
      things everything appears nice and happy. But behind this nice exterior is the
      harsh reality of what is really going on. That is why I intentionally used the
      contrasting words to describe Jeff's actions. I was looking at the surface as
      opposed to what was really going on.

      There is way too much Nazi-like enforcement of rules in Eckankar.



      Note to ESA members: I just posted this over at a.r.e. It seemed to be relevant
      to this message board so I decided to cross-post it here.
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