Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Jeff the "Nazi-like enforcer" at the worship service

Expand Messages
  • jonathanjohns96
    I m going to give you another example of how Eckankar enforces it s teachings on its members and does not allow them to do their own thing or suggest things
    Message 1 of 5 , Sep 26, 2010
    • 0 Attachment
      I'm going to give you another example of how Eckankar enforces it's
      teachings on its members and does not allow them to do their own thing
      or suggest things that they found useful.

      This happened at the Annandale, Virginia, Eck center in the early
      2000s. This Eck center held their worship services with the theater
      seating in a fairly large room, bigger than most Eck centers that I
      have been to. They had the standard procedure of an Eckist giving a
      talk to the attendees. Then there was an opportunity for people to ask
      questions or comment. There was a higher initiate named Jeff
      MacHammer. During the worship services, he would sit in the right rear
      of the room. His eyes would normally be closed while he was listening
      to the discussion that transpired. On the surface of things a really
      nice guy. However, there was something a little bit more nefarious
      going on with him as he quietly sat at the back of the room.

      I remember clearly one Sunday when I attended. During the discussion
      period, a black man from Africa. possibly Nigerian, but he could have
      been from any of the countries in sub-Sahara Africa, made a comment,
      actually a suggestion. A very nice gentleman. He was very exited about
      sharing something that was really helping him. So he volunteered his
      view that he had been having a lot of good results by using positive
      affirmations. He said that they were really helping him.

      Well, Jeff MacHammer, upon hearing this, arose from his apparent
      slumber, and made some comments. Now I am not going to paint Jeff in
      the wrong light. His comments were stated nicely. He was not rude. He
      was not overbearing. But his purpose was obvious even to me at that
      time.

      Jeff stated something about how positive affirmations were only at the
      level of the mind. Then he stated that in Eckankar, one should work
      from the soul level. I don't remember all the details of what he said,
      but he said at least said that much. So this poor gentleman from
      Africa, who had just had all the air let out of his honest
      recommendation to others, now must have felt very unappreciated.

      So what really happened here?
      1. An Eckists in a worship service made a recommendation based on his
      having good results with a technique not tacitly approved by Eckankar.
      2. A higher initiate of Eckankar sitting in the back of the room, and
      obviously playing the role of the Nazi-like enforcer of all things
      proper to Eckankar" tells the man "You are only functioning from the
      mental plane. You should instead be functioning from the soul plane.
      That's the Eckankar way."
      3. So the man who made the suggestion is now possibly saying to
      himself "That's the last time I ever speak up and make a positive
      suggestion to people." Or "Next time I'll make sure that whatever I
      say has been previously approved by Harold Klemp."

      My view is this. If the man from Africa was having good results, then
      why not let him stand up and tell others without being slammed down by
      the Nazi-like enforcer Jeff MacHammer who was obviously there to do
      just exactly what he did? To me the reason is obvious. This is just
      another example of how Eckankar enforces its belief system on its
      members. And the enforcement is total. Members of Eckankar can't do
      things "their own way." Not if their way is seriously out of step with
      Eckankar's rigid platform.

      And what is wrong with letting that African man speak his thoughts,
      and then letting the people in the room make up their own minds about
      whether his suggestion is good or not?

      Eckists will no doubt counter "Well, this was a worship service, and
      maybe there was a new person there, and that new person would get an
      inaccurate view of the Eck teachings."

      My reply to that is "Then just don't let anyone from the audience make
      comments or suggestions. If they really aren't allowed to speak their
      honest opinion then what is the purpose? If they can't speak their own
      opinion without being shot down by one of Eckankar's enforcers the
      whole thing is just a farce." The Eckists will contend "We Eckists have a question
      and answer and comments period. You're just not allowed to say anything that
      counters the Eck teachings." It's not free speech, so just stop the
      farce. Make it like a Christian worship service. No questions or
      comments, and just let the sheeple go along with whatever the priests/
      mahdis tell them."

      One more thing, Eckists are probably going to say "You said Jeff was
      nice, but then you also said that Jeff slammed the guy down. That seem like an inconsistency" The fact is, this is often how Eckankar works. On the surface of things everything appears nice and happy. But behind this nice exterior is the harsh reality of what is really going on. That is why I intentionally used the contrasting words to describe Jeff's actions. I was looking at the surface as opposed to what was really going on.

      There is way too much Nazi-like enforcement of rules in Eckankar.

      Jonathan

      -----------------------------------------

      Note to ESA members: I just posted this over at a.r.e. It seemed to be relevant
      to this message board so I decided to cross-post it here.
    • jonathanjohns96
      All, I have some interesting additional thoughts on the enforcer at the Eck center. Point 1 One of the things that bothers me about people like Jeff
      Message 2 of 5 , Sep 27, 2010
      • 0 Attachment
        All,

        I have some interesting additional thoughts on the "enforcer" at the Eck center.

        Point 1
        One of the things that bothers me about people like Jeff MacHammer is that he is no nice and appeasing on the surface, but underneath is the the true intentions of Eckankar. His purpose in being at the worship service is to enforce the Klemp-based version of Eckankar. It is very disconcerting to me.

        Point 2
        And please remember one thing. The purpose of the worship service is to suck new people into Eckankar. In 2008 there was a meeting for the Eck membership at my local Eck center which was an open discussion about the future operations of the Eck center. The question was whether the worship services should be four times a month or two times a month. I said "In order to answer that question I need to know whether the worship service is for members or new people." She replied "new people." I'm not sure she was the director of the Eck center, but she was in charge of the meeting.

        So how does this apply to my story about the "enforcer" at the Eck center. Most members of Eckankar have no idea that the worship service is for newcomers; they think it is for the membership. The African man with the "unapproved" suggestion was no doubt thinking that. So he probably thought he could make a suggestion without it becoming a big problem. But Jeff MacHammer, the enforcer, was there to make sure that any new people would not get an erroneous view of Eckankar so he had to correct the man and tell him that this is not how Eckankar does things.

        Point 3
        It appears to me that the introduction of the worship service by Klemp seems to have been a move to discontinue the standard "Introductory Lecture," moving it instead to the Eck center, while at the same time creating the erroneous impression to newcomers that this was a "worship service for members of Eckankar." Newcomers think that the worship service is truly what Eckankar is all about. In fact, it is a carefully crafted "appearance" whose main purpose is to NOT turn off newcomers (potential new members of Eckankar). I always wondered why after the worship services were started by Klemp that Eckankar now seemed like "Eckankar for dummies." I just explained the reason why. The purpose of the worship services has always been to bring new people into Eckankar. The purpose is not to serve the membership of Eckankar.

        Point 4
        Now that the introductory lecture had been moved to the Eck center, Eckankar's emphasis in the public talks that took place in libraries and Barnes and Noble was "Dreams." A topic that was much less likely to offend newcomers to Eckankar.

        Point 5
        I remember very clearly in my early days in Eckankar (1979-1983) that the first three discourses were Satsang 1, 2, and 3. at some point during Klemp's tenure, things were changed so that the first discourse was "Dreams." So even the ordering of the discourses was following the same plane to present dreams to outsiders and even the newest members of Eckankar first. All so they really didn't even know what Eckankar was really about until they had been a member for over a year or two. Eckankar probably figured that by then, that it had probably become a habit for them, and they were unlikely to quit.

        Point 6
        So the purpose of the worship service is to fool newcomers. Newcomers show up and are fooled into thinking that "This is really Eckankar." Members show up and are constantly wondering "Why is the worship service so dummied down?"

        Jonathan


        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96" <jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:
        >
        > I'm going to give you another example of how Eckankar enforces it's
        > teachings on its members and does not allow them to do their own thing
        > or suggest things that they found useful.
        >
        > This happened at the Annandale, Virginia, Eck center in the early
        > 2000s. This Eck center held their worship services with the theater
        > seating in a fairly large room, bigger than most Eck centers that I
        > have been to. They had the standard procedure of an Eckist giving a
        > talk to the attendees. Then there was an opportunity for people to ask
        > questions or comment. There was a higher initiate named Jeff
        > MacHammer. During the worship services, he would sit in the right rear
        > of the room. His eyes would normally be closed while he was listening
        > to the discussion that transpired. On the surface of things a really
        > nice guy. However, there was something a little bit more nefarious
        > going on with him as he quietly sat at the back of the room.
        >
        > I remember clearly one Sunday when I attended. During the discussion
        > period, a black man from Africa. possibly Nigerian, but he could have
        > been from any of the countries in sub-Sahara Africa, made a comment,
        > actually a suggestion. A very nice gentleman. He was very exited about
        > sharing something that was really helping him. So he volunteered his
        > view that he had been having a lot of good results by using positive
        > affirmations. He said that they were really helping him.
        >
        > Well, Jeff MacHammer, upon hearing this, arose from his apparent
        > slumber, and made some comments. Now I am not going to paint Jeff in
        > the wrong light. His comments were stated nicely. He was not rude. He
        > was not overbearing. But his purpose was obvious even to me at that
        > time.
        >
        > Jeff stated something about how positive affirmations were only at the
        > level of the mind. Then he stated that in Eckankar, one should work
        > from the soul level. I don't remember all the details of what he said,
        > but he said at least said that much. So this poor gentleman from
        > Africa, who had just had all the air let out of his honest
        > recommendation to others, now must have felt very unappreciated.
        >
        > So what really happened here?
        > 1. An Eckists in a worship service made a recommendation based on his
        > having good results with a technique not tacitly approved by Eckankar.
        > 2. A higher initiate of Eckankar sitting in the back of the room, and
        > obviously playing the role of the Nazi-like enforcer of all things
        > proper to Eckankar" tells the man "You are only functioning from the
        > mental plane. You should instead be functioning from the soul plane.
        > That's the Eckankar way."
        > 3. So the man who made the suggestion is now possibly saying to
        > himself "That's the last time I ever speak up and make a positive
        > suggestion to people." Or "Next time I'll make sure that whatever I
        > say has been previously approved by Harold Klemp."
        >
        > My view is this. If the man from Africa was having good results, then
        > why not let him stand up and tell others without being slammed down by
        > the Nazi-like enforcer Jeff MacHammer who was obviously there to do
        > just exactly what he did? To me the reason is obvious. This is just
        > another example of how Eckankar enforces its belief system on its
        > members. And the enforcement is total. Members of Eckankar can't do
        > things "their own way." Not if their way is seriously out of step with
        > Eckankar's rigid platform.
        >
        > And what is wrong with letting that African man speak his thoughts,
        > and then letting the people in the room make up their own minds about
        > whether his suggestion is good or not?
        >
        > Eckists will no doubt counter "Well, this was a worship service, and
        > maybe there was a new person there, and that new person would get an
        > inaccurate view of the Eck teachings."
        >
        > My reply to that is "Then just don't let anyone from the audience make
        > comments or suggestions. If they really aren't allowed to speak their
        > honest opinion then what is the purpose? If they can't speak their own
        > opinion without being shot down by one of Eckankar's enforcers the
        > whole thing is just a farce." The Eckists will contend "We Eckists have a question
        > and answer and comments period. You're just not allowed to say anything that
        > counters the Eck teachings." It's not free speech, so just stop the
        > farce. Make it like a Christian worship service. No questions or
        > comments, and just let the sheeple go along with whatever the priests/
        > mahdis tell them."
        >
        > One more thing, Eckists are probably going to say "You said Jeff was
        > nice, but then you also said that Jeff slammed the guy down. That seem like an inconsistency" The fact is, this is often how Eckankar works. On the surface of things everything appears nice and happy. But behind this nice exterior is the harsh reality of what is really going on. That is why I intentionally used the contrasting words to describe Jeff's actions. I was looking at the surface as opposed to what was really going on.
        >
        > There is way too much Nazi-like enforcement of rules in Eckankar.
        >
        > Jonathan
        >
        > -----------------------------------------
        >
        > Note to ESA members: I just posted this over at a.r.e. It seemed to be relevant
        > to this message board so I decided to cross-post it here.
        >
      • prometheus_973
        Hello Jonathan and All, This H.I., Jeff MacHammer, needed an Arahata Training refresher course. One does not add to or correct a person who is sharing views/
        Message 3 of 5 , Sep 30, 2010
        • 0 Attachment
          Hello Jonathan and All,
          This H.I., Jeff MacHammer, needed an Arahata
          Training refresher course. One does not add
          to or correct a person who is sharing views/
          opinions, especially, at an EWS. Yes, being
          neither for nor against nor positive/negative
          sounds good but is impractical because we
          live in the lower worlds and read lower world
          materials (ECK crap too) and think lower world
          thoughts (this is the "testing ground for Soul")
          and all of it is both pos. and neg.... so what!
          But for some reason H.I.s think they are
          above it all. What good old Jeff said was
          more negative (Astral) than the positive
          perspective the Nigerian(?) Eckist was sharing.
          LOL!

          Prometheus

          jonathan wrote:
          I'm going to give you another example of how Eckankar enforces it's
          teachings on its members and does not allow them to do their own thing
          or suggest things that they found useful.

          This happened at the Annandale, Virginia, Eck center in the early
          2000s. This Eck center held their worship services with the theater
          seating in a fairly large room, bigger than most Eck centers that I
          have been to. They had the standard procedure of an Eckist giving a
          talk to the attendees. Then there was an opportunity for people to ask
          questions or comment. There was a higher initiate named Jeff
          MacHammer. During the worship services, he would sit in the right rear
          of the room. His eyes would normally be closed while he was listening
          to the discussion that transpired. On the surface of things a really
          nice guy. However, there was something a little bit more nefarious
          going on with him as he quietly sat at the back of the room.

          I remember clearly one Sunday when I attended. During the discussion
          period, a black man from Africa. possibly Nigerian, but he could have
          been from any of the countries in sub-Sahara Africa, made a comment,
          actually a suggestion. A very nice gentleman. He was very exited about
          sharing something that was really helping him. So he volunteered his
          view that he had been having a lot of good results by using positive
          affirmations. He said that they were really helping him.

          Well, Jeff MacHammer, upon hearing this, arose from his apparent
          slumber, and made some comments. Now I am not going to paint Jeff in
          the wrong light. His comments were stated nicely. He was not rude. He
          was not overbearing. But his purpose was obvious even to me at that
          time.

          Jeff stated something about how positive affirmations were only at the
          level of the mind. Then he stated that in Eckankar, one should work
          from the soul level. I don't remember all the details of what he said,
          but he said at least said that much. So this poor gentleman from
          Africa, who had just had all the air let out of his honest
          recommendation to others, now must have felt very unappreciated.

          So what really happened here?
          1. An Eckists in a worship service made a recommendation based on his
          having good results with a technique not tacitly approved by Eckankar.
          2. A higher initiate of Eckankar sitting in the back of the room, and
          obviously playing the role of the Nazi-like enforcer of all things
          proper to Eckankar" tells the man "You are only functioning from the
          mental plane. You should instead be functioning from the soul plane.
          That's the Eckankar way."
          3. So the man who made the suggestion is now possibly saying to
          himself "That's the last time I ever speak up and make a positive
          suggestion to people." Or "Next time I'll make sure that whatever I
          say has been previously approved by Harold Klemp."

          My view is this. If the man from Africa was having good results, then
          why not let him stand up and tell others without being slammed down by
          the Nazi-like enforcer Jeff MacHammer who was obviously there to do
          just exactly what he did? To me the reason is obvious. This is just
          another example of how Eckankar enforces its belief system on its
          members. And the enforcement is total. Members of Eckankar can't do
          things "their own way." Not if their way is seriously out of step with
          Eckankar's rigid platform.

          And what is wrong with letting that African man speak his thoughts,
          and then letting the people in the room make up their own minds about
          whether his suggestion is good or not?

          Eckists will no doubt counter "Well, this was a worship service, and
          maybe there was a new person there, and that new person would get an
          inaccurate view of the Eck teachings."

          My reply to that is "Then just don't let anyone from the audience make
          comments or suggestions. If they really aren't allowed to speak their
          honest opinion then what is the purpose? If they can't speak their own
          opinion without being shot down by one of Eckankar's enforcers the
          whole thing is just a farce." The Eckists will contend "We Eckists have a
          question
          and answer and comments period. You're just not allowed to say anything that
          counters the Eck teachings." It's not free speech, so just stop the
          farce. Make it like a Christian worship service. No questions or
          comments, and just let the sheeple go along with whatever the priests/
          mahdis tell them."

          One more thing, Eckists are probably going to say "You said Jeff was
          nice, but then you also said that Jeff slammed the guy down. That seem like an
          inconsistency" The fact is, this is often how Eckankar works. On the surface of
          things everything appears nice and happy. But behind this nice exterior is the
          harsh reality of what is really going on. That is why I intentionally used the
          contrasting words to describe Jeff's actions. I was looking at the surface as
          opposed to what was really going on.

          There is way too much Nazi-like enforcement of rules in Eckankar.

          Jonathan

          -----------------------------------------

          Note to ESA members: I just posted this over at a.r.e. It seemed to be relevant
          to this message board so I decided to cross-post it here.
        • prometheus_973
          Hello Jonathan and All, I d like to comment on the additional thoughts you had concerning this H.I. and spiritual fraud under Klemp s rule. jonathan wrote:
          Message 4 of 5 , Sep 30, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            Hello Jonathan and All,
            I'd like to comment on the additional
            thoughts you had concerning this H.I.
            and spiritual fraud under Klemp's rule.

            jonathan wrote:
            All,

            I have some interesting additional thoughts on the "enforcer" at the Eck center.

            Point 1
            One of the things that bothers me about people like Jeff MacHammer
            is that he is nice and appeasing on the surface, but underneath is the
            the true intentions of Eckankar. His purpose in being at the worship
            service is to enforce the Klemp-based version of Eckankar. It is very
            disconcerting to me.


            [P]: Jeff was out of line and I would have had a talk
            with him and notified his RESA even though I was
            not an H.I. of that Satsang Society. If not convinced
            that his RESA was receptive to what I had to say I
            would have notified my RESA. It sounds like he was
            either the Spiritual Services Coordinator or the Local
            Director of that area.



            Point 2
            And please remember one thing. The purpose of the worship service is to suck new
            people into Eckankar. In 2008 there was a meeting for the Eck membership at my
            local Eck center which was an open discussion about the future operations of the
            Eck center. The question was whether the worship services should be four times a
            month or two times a month. I said "In order to answer that question I need to
            know whether the worship service is for members or new people." She replied "new
            people." I'm not sure she was the director of the Eck center, but she was in
            charge of the meeting.


            [P]: Well, usually the EWS is once per month because
            it is for new people and there aren't that many "new
            people" that show up. Plus, the troops get spread
            rather thin. Four times per month requires how many
            clerics? Plus, the topics need to be approved in advance
            and there needs to be advance/lead time for publicity
            for newspapers, postering, and for the ECK Newsletter.
            Also, while all of this is going on, with the EWS, there
            are Book Discussions, Intros, Workshops, Satsang Classes,
            HU Chants, Open Houses, Roundtables, and all kinds
            of other promotions etc. going on and being planned.
            These also drain volunteer resources, as well as, time
            and money. It's too much and failure turns people off.
            On the other hand... why do ECKists fail when their
            Mahanta is leading the way?



            So how does this apply to my story about the "enforcer" at the Eck center. Most
            members of Eckankar have no idea that the worship service is for newcomers; they
            think it is for the membership. The African man with the "unapproved" suggestion
            was no doubt thinking that. So he probably thought he could make a suggestion
            without it becoming a big problem. But Jeff MacHammer, the enforcer, was there
            to make sure that any new people would not get an erroneous view of Eckankar so
            he had to correct the man and tell him that this is not how Eckankar does
            things.


            [P]: I always saw the EWS as being two fold.
            The primary purpose was to bring those church
            shopping metaphysical types into the EK fold,
            but it was also to reorient those disenfranchised
            ECKists back to the EK teachings via the local,
            friendly, ECK Center.



            Point 3
            It appears to me that the introduction of the worship service by Klemp seems to
            have been a move to discontinue the standard "Introductory Lecture," moving it
            instead to the Eck center, while at the same time creating the erroneous
            impression to newcomers that this was a "worship service for members of
            Eckankar." Newcomers think that the worship service is truly what Eckankar is
            all about. In fact, it is a carefully crafted "appearance" whose main purpose is
            to NOT turn off newcomers (potential new members of Eckankar). I always wondered
            why after the worship services were started by Klemp that Eckankar now seemed
            like "Eckankar for dummies." I just explained the reason why. The purpose of the
            worship services has always been to bring new people into Eckankar. The purpose
            is not to serve the membership of Eckankar.


            [P]: Klemp, unintentionally, loses the similar minded
            metaphysical group of seekers with his Church like
            approach (and jargon) to PT's EK Teachings.


            Point 4
            Now that the introductory lecture had been moved to the Eck center, Eckankar's
            emphasis in the public talks that took place in libraries and Barnes and Noble
            was "Dreams." A topic that was much less likely to offend newcomers to Eckankar.


            [P] Past lives, dreams, and Soul travel are
            interesting topics. However, it s/b "spiritual"
            dreams rather than merely "dreams." Anyone
            and everyone dreams, but how many are
            "spiritual?" And, what is a "spiritual" dream?
            Aren't true seekers looking for the Spiritual?
            What Klemp gives them, after 28 years, is just
            more of the mundane... same o same o.
            BTW- Who was it that said, "religion is just
            imagining that your God is greater." The irony
            is that when Klemp gave the "My God is Bigger"
            lecture is that it's true for ECKists too! They
            just can't admit it or they're too close to it
            to see the Truth.




            Point 5
            I remember very clearly in my early days in Eckankar (1979-1983) that the first
            three discourses were Satsang 1, 2, and 3. at some point during Klemp's tenure,
            things were changed so that the first discourse was "Dreams." So even the
            ordering of the discourses was following the same plane to present dreams to
            outsiders and even the newest members of Eckankar first. All so they really
            didn't even know what Eckankar was really about until they had been a member for
            over a year or two. Eckankar probably figured that by then, that it had probably
            become a habit for them, and they were unlikely to quit.


            [P]: I think that the Easy Way was in there too and
            one had a choice to start with either Dreams or the
            Easy Way. It is part of the indoctrination as is making
            it "secretive." Also, making it "secretive" makes it
            sound special and authentic. However, there is a
            more sinister use for this rule/law. It is the beginning
            use of a control technique and of keeping "silent"
            (silence). The unsuspecting/trusting/naive student/
            seeker is tricked. One is told that he/she cannot share
            info from the Discourse, unless, they are in that particular
            Satsang class. Thus, early on, ECKists are programmed
            to follow orders or be ostracized and Black Listed
            on Initiations and Satsang Positions.


            Point 6
            So the purpose of the worship service is to fool newcomers. Newcomers show up
            and are fooled into thinking that "This is really Eckankar." Members show up
            and are constantly wondering "Why is the worship service so dummied down?"


            [P]: Well, the EK members of the Satsang Society
            do get to socialize with one another and reenforce
            their beliefs. Plus, it a good training ground for
            those needing to have small and large group
            facilitation experience, as well as, public speaking
            experience with a (usually) friendly, forgiving,
            crowd. And it's a chance to evaluate those lone
            wolves that show up every blue moon and to maybe
            bring them, or accept them, back into the pack.

            Therefore, the lack of spiritual substance is over-
            looked. Besides, Soul is on It's own individual
            path... right? So Eckankar is mainly to achieve
            good Karma (via works... inflow/outflow) and
            to have HK give you Inner Guidance on the Higher
            Planes... but mainly for the slight chance to
            get another Outer Initiation that equates to an
            Inner Initiation... or so it's said and promised
            by Twitchell... a proven liar!




            Jonathan


            "jonathan wrote:
            >
            > I'm going to give you another example of how Eckankar enforces it's
            > teachings on its members and does not allow them to do their own thing
            > or suggest things that they found useful.
            >
            > This happened at the Annandale, Virginia, Eck center in the early
            > 2000s. This Eck center held their worship services with the theater
            > seating in a fairly large room, bigger than most Eck centers that I
            > have been to. They had the standard procedure of an Eckist giving a
            > talk to the attendees. Then there was an opportunity for people to ask
            > questions or comment. There was a higher initiate named Jeff
            > MacHammer. During the worship services, he would sit in the right rear
            > of the room. His eyes would normally be closed while he was listening
            > to the discussion that transpired. On the surface of things a really
            > nice guy. However, there was something a little bit more nefarious
            > going on with him as he quietly sat at the back of the room.
            >
            > I remember clearly one Sunday when I attended. During the discussion
            > period, a black man from Africa. possibly Nigerian, but he could have
            > been from any of the countries in sub-Sahara Africa, made a comment,
            > actually a suggestion. A very nice gentleman. He was very exited about
            > sharing something that was really helping him. So he volunteered his
            > view that he had been having a lot of good results by using positive
            > affirmations. He said that they were really helping him.
            >
            > Well, Jeff MacHammer, upon hearing this, arose from his apparent
            > slumber, and made some comments. Now I am not going to paint Jeff in
            > the wrong light. His comments were stated nicely. He was not rude. He
            > was not overbearing. But his purpose was obvious even to me at that
            > time.
            >
            > Jeff stated something about how positive affirmations were only at the
            > level of the mind. Then he stated that in Eckankar, one should work
            > from the soul level. I don't remember all the details of what he said,
            > but he said at least said that much. So this poor gentleman from
            > Africa, who had just had all the air let out of his honest
            > recommendation to others, now must have felt very unappreciated.
            >
            > So what really happened here?
            > 1. An Eckists in a worship service made a recommendation based on his
            > having good results with a technique not tacitly approved by Eckankar.
            > 2. A higher initiate of Eckankar sitting in the back of the room, and
            > obviously playing the role of the Nazi-like enforcer of all things
            > proper to Eckankar" tells the man "You are only functioning from the
            > mental plane. You should instead be functioning from the soul plane.
            > That's the Eckankar way."
            > 3. So the man who made the suggestion is now possibly saying to
            > himself "That's the last time I ever speak up and make a positive
            > suggestion to people." Or "Next time I'll make sure that whatever I
            > say has been previously approved by Harold Klemp."
            >
            > My view is this. If the man from Africa was having good results, then
            > why not let him stand up and tell others without being slammed down by
            > the Nazi-like enforcer Jeff MacHammer who was obviously there to do
            > just exactly what he did? To me the reason is obvious. This is just
            > another example of how Eckankar enforces its belief system on its
            > members. And the enforcement is total. Members of Eckankar can't do
            > things "their own way." Not if their way is seriously out of step with
            > Eckankar's rigid platform.
            >
            > And what is wrong with letting that African man speak his thoughts,
            > and then letting the people in the room make up their own minds about
            > whether his suggestion is good or not?
            >
            > Eckists will no doubt counter "Well, this was a worship service, and
            > maybe there was a new person there, and that new person would get an
            > inaccurate view of the Eck teachings."
            >
            > My reply to that is "Then just don't let anyone from the audience make
            > comments or suggestions. If they really aren't allowed to speak their
            > honest opinion then what is the purpose? If they can't speak their own
            > opinion without being shot down by one of Eckankar's enforcers the
            > whole thing is just a farce." The Eckists will contend "We Eckists have a
            question
            > and answer and comments period. You're just not allowed to say anything that
            > counters the Eck teachings." It's not free speech, so just stop the
            > farce. Make it like a Christian worship service. No questions or
            > comments, and just let the sheeple go along with whatever the priests/
            > mahdis tell them."
            >
            > One more thing, Eckists are probably going to say "You said Jeff was
            > nice, but then you also said that Jeff slammed the guy down. That seem like an
            inconsistency" The fact is, this is often how Eckankar works. On the surface of
            things everything appears nice and happy. But behind this nice exterior is the
            harsh reality of what is really going on. That is why I intentionally used the
            contrasting words to describe Jeff's actions. I was looking at the surface as
            opposed to what was really going on.
            >
            > There is way too much Nazi-like enforcement of rules in Eckankar.
            >
            > Jonathan
            >
            > -----------------------------------------
            >
            > Note to ESA members: I just posted this over at a.r.e. It seemed to be
            relevant
            > to this message board so I decided to cross-post it here.
            >
          • prometheus_973
            In the June 2010 Mystic World Ask the Master is this Q&A by an Unknown ECKist: Q: In your story of the ecotour guide from your 2008 talk The Tensions of
            Message 5 of 5 , Oct 6, 2010
            • 0 Attachment
              In the June 2010 Mystic World
              Ask the Master is this Q&A by
              an Unknown ECKist:

              Q: "In your story of the ecotour
              guide from your 2008 talk "The
              Tensions of Living," YOU GIVE
              PERMISSION to invite seekers
              on the inner (or that is how
              I understood it).

              And I have been doing that. For
              me, it seems like I am opening
              my heart with this inner invitation."

              [P]: Why do ECKists need permission
              from Klemp for doing the obvious
              or for doing anything? Are they
              that afraid and unsure? Yes! And
              if they aren't Klemp will get them
              back on track!

              Besides, this is an old technique
              (inviting non-ECKists via the inner).
              But, it doesn't work! Most Satsang
              Societies have always had poor
              newcomer attendance results.
              If Klemp was a true Mahanta/God
              he would be bringing them in.
              But, look at the number of Newcomers
              at any ECK Worldwide Seminar
              (about 100 or so people and
              many of these are repeats or
              relatives). Whose fault is that?
              Never Klemp's!

              Plus, this "feeling" that comes
              about by opening the Astral
              Heart Charka is normal/natural
              when one becomes introspective
              and empathetic.

              Q (cont.):
              "In the June 2007 Mystic World,
              you write that "the inner is for
              the inner, and the outer is for
              the outer."

              Can you help me understand?
              Is it an opening of my heart?"

              [P] First, the "inner" is Not for the
              inner only and the "outer" is not
              for the outer only. According to
              EK dogma doesn't the Astral,
              Causal, and Mental Planes all
              function as both Outer and Inner?
              Isn't this true of the consciousness
              from higher planes as well? However,
              I have to admit that these "Planes"
              with numbers and names, rulers,
              etc. seem like just another religious
              trap with imagined/mental fantasies.

              I do feel sorry for this young,
              naive, and confused ECKist having
              to ask Klemp for an ekplanation
              and doing so via a snail-mail letter.
              Apparently Klemp feels the need
              to share his correspondence/instructions
              with other equally confused ECKists
              via the Outer versus the Inner.

              Klemp's answer [my caps and bracketed
              comments]:

              "The first [the 2008 talk] opens a door,
              while the second [the 2007 article] addresses
              the Restrictions that Some would Impose
              on others.

              Both can be positive."

              [Recap: 2008 talk, permission given to
              invite people on the inner; 2007 article,
              inner is inner, outer is outer.]

              [P]: Is everyone just a bit confused?
              Is it that "both" the "outer" and "inner"
              can be "positive" as well? Plus, isn't
              being "positive" a lower plane desire
              and perspective since one is not being
              neutral? Aren't ECKists supposed to
              be neutral and detached versus seeking
              "positive" outcomes?

              Why do ECKists need to invite people
              on the inner? Let Spirit (the ECK) do
              it for It's Mahanta, or let the Mahanta
              invite them! Isn't inviting newcomers
              on the inner just another form of prayer
              and of manipulating people on a psychic
              level?

              Klemp: "However, the misuse of the
              second is more common. In this, an
              individual generally acts mainly on the
              outer, saying in effect, to another,
              'I got this on the inner that you should...'
              It is a control factor."

              [P]: So having ECKists get specific "outer"
              instructions from Klemp for what they
              can and can't do on both the Outer and
              the Inner Planes isn't "a control factor?"

              Klemp: "The speaker is posing as a
              demigod, at the expense of another.
              It is like saying, 'I have a direct line
              to the Mahanta; you don't. Not to
              worry, though. I'll be your go-between
              with the Master.' Call it Black Magic,
              for that is all it is."

              [P]: Apparently Klemp is the only one
              qualified to be a "demigod." LOL!
              See, this is what religion does. There
              always has to be a "go-between" for
              Soul and/or Spirit/God. And, see how
              Klemp throws out the term "Black Magic"
              to scare, threaten and control those
              ECKists who are discovering their own
              divinity outside of HK's religious confines.

              Klemp: "The first surely demonstrates
              an opening of your heart. You are
              extending an invitation for a guest
              to visit your home, and the recipient
              feels free to accept or to reject it."

              [P]: Apparently the ECK Law of Non-
              interference doesn't apply to Vahanas
              or to bringing in newcomers ($$$).
              True, people can reject the invitation
              but aren't they influenced and tricked
              unjustly and covertly (and without
              permission) in their dreams on the
              "inner?"

              BTW- Why doesn't the All Knowing
              and All Powerful Mahanta do his part?
              Is it because of HK's Catch-22 rule
              that failure and low turnouts can only
              be blamed on others for their lack of:
              faith; belief; trust, consciousness; or
              for some other wrong doing?

              The Teflon Mahanta (Klemp) always
              seems to escape responsibility.

              Prometheus



              prometheus wrote:
              Hello Jonathan and All,
              This H.I., Jeff MacHammer, needed an Arahata
              Training refresher course. One does not add
              to or correct a person who is sharing views/
              opinions, especially, at an EWS. Yes, being
              neither for nor against nor positive/negative
              sounds good but is impractical because we
              live in the lower worlds and read lower world
              materials (ECK crap too) and think lower world
              thoughts (this is the "testing ground for Soul")
              and all of it is both pos. and neg.... so what!
              But for some reason H.I.s think they are
              above it all. What good old Jeff said was
              more negative (Astral) than the positive
              perspective the Nigerian(?) Eckist was sharing.
              LOL!

              Prometheus

              jonathan wrote:
              I'm going to give you another example of how Eckankar enforces it's
              teachings on its members and does not allow them to do their own thing
              or suggest things that they found useful.

              This happened at the Annandale, Virginia, Eck center in the early
              2000s. This Eck center held their worship services with the theater
              seating in a fairly large room, bigger than most Eck centers that I
              have been to. They had the standard procedure of an Eckist giving a
              talk to the attendees. Then there was an opportunity for people to ask
              questions or comment. There was a higher initiate named Jeff
              MacHammer. During the worship services, he would sit in the right rear
              of the room. His eyes would normally be closed while he was listening
              to the discussion that transpired. On the surface of things a really
              nice guy. However, there was something a little bit more nefarious
              going on with him as he quietly sat at the back of the room.

              I remember clearly one Sunday when I attended. During the discussion
              period, a black man from Africa. possibly Nigerian, but he could have
              been from any of the countries in sub-Sahara Africa, made a comment,
              actually a suggestion. A very nice gentleman. He was very exited about
              sharing something that was really helping him. So he volunteered his
              view that he had been having a lot of good results by using positive
              affirmations. He said that they were really helping him.

              Well, Jeff MacHammer, upon hearing this, arose from his apparent
              slumber, and made some comments. Now I am not going to paint Jeff in
              the wrong light. His comments were stated nicely. He was not rude. He
              was not overbearing. But his purpose was obvious even to me at that
              time.

              Jeff stated something about how positive affirmations were only at the
              level of the mind. Then he stated that in Eckankar, one should work
              from the soul level. I don't remember all the details of what he said,
              but he said at least said that much. So this poor gentleman from
              Africa, who had just had all the air let out of his honest
              recommendation to others, now must have felt very unappreciated.

              So what really happened here?
              1. An Eckists in a worship service made a recommendation based on his
              having good results with a technique not tacitly approved by Eckankar.
              2. A higher initiate of Eckankar sitting in the back of the room, and
              obviously playing the role of the Nazi-like enforcer of all things
              proper to Eckankar" tells the man "You are only functioning from the
              mental plane. You should instead be functioning from the soul plane.
              That's the Eckankar way."
              3. So the man who made the suggestion is now possibly saying to
              himself "That's the last time I ever speak up and make a positive
              suggestion to people." Or "Next time I'll make sure that whatever I
              say has been previously approved by Harold Klemp."

              My view is this. If the man from Africa was having good results, then
              why not let him stand up and tell others without being slammed down by
              the Nazi-like enforcer Jeff MacHammer who was obviously there to do
              just exactly what he did? To me the reason is obvious. This is just
              another example of how Eckankar enforces its belief system on its
              members. And the enforcement is total. Members of Eckankar can't do
              things "their own way." Not if their way is seriously out of step with
              Eckankar's rigid platform.

              And what is wrong with letting that African man speak his thoughts,
              and then letting the people in the room make up their own minds about
              whether his suggestion is good or not?

              Eckists will no doubt counter "Well, this was a worship service, and
              maybe there was a new person there, and that new person would get an
              inaccurate view of the Eck teachings."

              My reply to that is "Then just don't let anyone from the audience make
              comments or suggestions. If they really aren't allowed to speak their
              honest opinion then what is the purpose? If they can't speak their own
              opinion without being shot down by one of Eckankar's enforcers the
              whole thing is just a farce." The Eckists will contend "We Eckists have a
              question
              and answer and comments period. You're just not allowed to say anything that
              counters the Eck teachings." It's not free speech, so just stop the
              farce. Make it like a Christian worship service. No questions or
              comments, and just let the sheeple go along with whatever the priests/
              mahdis tell them."

              One more thing, Eckists are probably going to say "You said Jeff was
              nice, but then you also said that Jeff slammed the guy down. That seem like an
              inconsistency" The fact is, this is often how Eckankar works. On the surface of
              things everything appears nice and happy. But behind this nice exterior is the
              harsh reality of what is really going on. That is why I intentionally used the
              contrasting words to describe Jeff's actions. I was looking at the surface as
              opposed to what was really going on.

              There is way too much Nazi-like enforcement of rules in Eckankar.

              Jonathan

              -----------------------------------------

              Note to ESA members: I just posted this over at a.r.e. It seemed to be relevant
              to this message board so I decided to cross-post it here.
            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.