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Re: Thee and ye. What is that?

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  • prometheus_973
    Hello Jonathan and All, You ve made some good points. It does seem odd that a 500 year old Tibetan Lama (Rebazar) would speak Old English. It s probably
    Message 1 of 22 , Sep 14, 2010
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      Hello Jonathan and All,
      You've made some good points.
      It does seem odd that a 500
      year old Tibetan Lama (Rebazar)
      would speak Old English. It's
      probably because Twitchell
      used the King James version
      of the Bible for references.
      I always thought it was odd
      that Klemp, too, uses the
      more inaccurate King James
      version when giving Bible quotes.

      Prometheus

      jonathanjohns wrote:
      romethues wrote:

      "But I was wondering, once again
      as I did when I was an ECKist,
      Why does Rebazar speak using
      words like "thee' and "ye?" This
      "Torch Bearer" and former Mahanta
      who is over 500 years old and
      who can travel anywhere physically
      or otherwise and who PT claimed
      trained him apparently stepped in
      as the LEM (for Sudar/Kirpal) and
      handed Twitchell the Rod of ECK
      Power... still speaks using thee
      and ye?"

      JJ - After I stopped laughing at your funny comment, I started thinking. "Isn't
      this ye and thee stuff actually Old English? And the reason that it sounds Holy
      in a traditional Christian sort of way is because some of the old versions of
      the Bible were written in Old English?

      And so I turned to that "bastion of truth." That "torchbearer of all things
      correct." Not Eckankar, but, Wikipedia:

      Wikipedia - Thou
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou
      "Most modern English speakers encounter "thou" only in the works of Shakespeare,
      in the works of other medieval and early modern writers, and in the King James
      Bible.

      So after realizing that in this case it looks like I was correct, I wondered
      about a few things:

      1. Rebazar is 500 years old. How old is Old English?
      2. Regardless of the answer to #1, how and why did Rebazar learn to speak Old
      English?

      Wikipedia - Old English
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_english
      "Old English (Englisc, Anglisc, Ænglisc) or Anglo-Saxon[1] is an early form of
      the English language that was spoken and written by the Anglo-Saxons and their
      descendants in parts of what are now England and south-eastern Scotland between
      at least the mid-5th century and the mid-12th century."

      Wikipedia - 5th Century
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_century
      "The 5th century is the period from 401 to 500 in accordance with the Julian
      calendar in Anno Domini/Common Era."

      Wikipedia - 12th Century
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_century
      "As a means of recording the passage of time, the 12th century is the period
      from 1101 to 1200 in accordance with the Julian calendar in the Christian/Common
      Era."

      Rebazar's birth year
      1965-500=1465

      If Rebazar was 35 years old in 1500, that means he was speaking Old English
      about 350 years after it had died out in England and Scotland.

      Ok, I admit it it. I have no idea what any of this proves...

      - - - - - - - - - - -

      UPDATE: Maybe I do know what it proves. Maybe Twitchell knew that most
      Americans, being of a Christian background, would associate Old English with the
      Bible. In other words, with Holy writings or spiritual truth.

      I knew that Twitchell stole some verses from the Bible, but I never thought
      about this before. The fact that Twitchell may have had Rebazar use the words
      thee and ye in order to create a spiritual-like persona for Rebazar.

      I'm wondering whether Ford Johnson mentioned this. He must have.

      Search results of "Confessions"

      "old english" - no occurrences
      "king james" - one occurrence (p 117) but not related to a discussion of
      Twitchell's use of thee and ye.
      "thee" - numerous, but Ford actually uses the word 'thee' in some of his HCS
      affirmations.

      But Ford is allowed to use thee since he was raised in the United States. Plus,
      I think that if Ford was questioned, he would acknowledge that he probably got
      the word "thee" from reading the King James version of the Bible. I don't think
      Twitchell would acknowledge that Rebazar got the word "thee" from reading the
      King James version of the Bible, or from somehow being exposed to Old English
      which was spoken from 450 to 1150.

      Questions for further study.
      1. Did all the Eck masters use thee and ye? Or just Rebazar?
      2. Did these Eck masters speak that way just because they knew Twitchell would
      feel comfortable with it?
      3. Did any of Paul's actual gurus such as Kirpal Singh or Premananda use thee
      and ye in their speech?
    • prometheus_973
      Hello Drew and All, Thanks for the perspective. Of course Rebazar is fictitious, but Twitch needed someone living (a LEM fill-in, supposedly) to initiate him
      Message 2 of 22 , Sep 14, 2010
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        Hello Drew and All,
        Thanks for the perspective.
        Of course Rebazar is fictitious,
        but Twitch needed someone
        "living" (a LEM fill-in, supposedly)
        to initiate him as LEM since
        he killed off Sudar/Kirpal.

        This EK Master lineage thing
        is somewhat of a Catch-22
        isn't it? On one hand these
        characters have been living,
        supposedly, 500-60,000 years
        in the same physical body.
        However, where are they?
        They live in PHYSICAL BODIES,
        or so Eckankar claims, and
        are nowhere to be found.
        The Physical is not an invisible
        Plane, but these "Masters"
        are invisible... and yet work
        under Klemp (the mahanta).
        So, why doesn't Klemp have
        them give talks at EK Seminars
        ... ever!

        On the other hand one has
        to be "special" in order to
        see and talk with these undead
        ECK Masters. But, then again,
        these ECKists claiming to have
        had visitations with RT, et al,
        in their dreams, etc., still need
        approval from Klemp in order
        to share these "stories."

        Otherwise, without approval,
        from Klemp these claims are
        unsubstantiated and invalid
        since these "EK Masters" might
        just be the KAL playing tricks
        on chelas and H.I.s. One is
        supposed to "HU" in order to
        verify that this is a True ECK
        Master... like Graham claimed.
        But we all know how that turned
        out.

        Then again, this validating
        procedure is also used to
        prevent more and more
        delusional claims and
        threats to Klemp. Plus,
        thereare a lot of psychologically
        impaired, dysfunctional,
        and psychotic ECKists out
        there in la la land. Thus,
        Klemp has to employ stop-
        gap measures, dogma,
        and rules to maintain order
        and to keep them happy
        and standing in line for
        their turn... or so they
        imagine.

        Prometheus

        Drew van Rijk wrote:
        >
        > Since Rebazar does not exist now, nor did in the past, verily I say unto you he was not reading the bible or creating old english...  LOL
        >
        jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:
        >
        > From: jonathanjohns96 <jonathanjohns96@...>
        > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Thee and ye. What is that?
        > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        > Received: Tuesday, September 14, 2010, 1:39 AM
        >
        >All,
        >
        > I know that some member of Eckankar is going to say "Maybe Rebazar was reading the KIng James version of the Bible."
        >
        >
        >
        > My answer to that is that Eckankar teaches that all religions came from Ecknakar. That means that Christianity came from Eckankar. So why would Rebazar have been reading the Bible?"
        >
        >
        >
        > Oh, OK. Now I get it! How could I have been so stupid! Rebazar Tarz was the person who originated Old English!
        >
        >
        >
        > Jonathan
        >
        >
        >
        jonathanjohns96@> wrote:
        >
        > >
        >
        > > Promethues wrote:
        >
        > >
        >
        > > "But I was wondering, once again
        >
        > > as I did when I was an ECKist,
        >
        > > Why does Rebazar speak using
        >
        > > words like "thee' and "ye?" This
        >
        > > "Torch Bearer" and former Mahanta
        >
        > > who is over 500 years old and
        >
        > > who can travel anywhere physically
        >
        > > or otherwise and who PT claimed
        >
        > > trained him apparently stepped in
        >
        > > as the LEM (for Sudar/Kirpal) and
        >
        > > handed Twitchell the Rod of ECK
        >
        > > Power... still speaks using thee
        >
        > > and ye?"
        >
        > >
        >
        > > JJ - After I stopped laughing at your funny comment, I started thinking. "Isn't this ye and thee stuff actually Old English? And the reason that it sounds Holy in a traditional Christian sort of way is because some of the old versions of the Bible were written in Old English?
        >
        > >
        >
        > > And so I turned to that "bastion of truth." That "torchbearer of all things correct." Not Eckankar, but, Wikipedia:
        >
        > >
        >
        > > Wikipedia - Thou
        >
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou
        >
        > > "Most modern English speakers encounter "thou" only in the works of Shakespeare, in the works of other medieval and early modern writers, and in the King James Bible.
        >
        > >
        >
        > > So after realizing that in this case it looks like I was correct, I wondered about a few things:
        >
        > >
        >
        > > 1. Rebazar is 500 years old. How old is Old English?
        >
        > > 2. Regardless of the answer to #1, how and why did Rebazar learn to speak Old English?
        >
        > >
        >
        > > Wikipedia - Old English
        >
        > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_english
        >
        > > "Old English (Englisc, Anglisc, Ænglisc) or Anglo-Saxon[1] is an early form of the English language that was spoken and written by the Anglo-Saxons and their descendants in parts of what are now England and south-eastern Scotland between at least the mid-5th century and the mid-12th century."
        >
        > >
        >
        > > Wikipedia - 5th Century
        >
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_century
        >
        > > "The 5th century is the period from 401 to 500 in accordance with the Julian calendar in Anno Domini/Common Era."
        >
        > >
        >
        > > Wikipedia - 12th Century
        >
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_century
        >
        > > "As a means of recording the passage of time, the 12th century is the period from 1101 to 1200 in accordance with the Julian calendar in the Christian/Common Era."
        >
        > >
        >
        > > Rebazar's birth year
        >
        > > 1965-500=1465
        >
        > >
        >
        > > If Rebazar was 35 years old in 1500, that means he was speaking Old English about 350 years after it had died out in England and Scotland.
        >
        > >
        >
        > > Ok, I admit it it. I have no idea what any of this proves...
        >
        > >
        >
        > > - - - - - - - - - - -
        >
        > >
        >
        > > UPDATE: Maybe I do know what it proves. Maybe Twitchell knew that most Americans, being of a Christian background, would associate Old English with the Bible. In other words, with Holy writings or spiritual truth.
        >
        > >
        >
        > > I knew that Twitchell stole some verses from the Bible, but I never thought about this before. The fact that Twitchell may have had Rebazar use the words thee and ye in order to create a spiritual-like persona for Rebazar.
        >
        > >
        >
        > > I'm wondering whether Ford Johnson mentioned this. He must have.
        >
        > >
        >
        > > Search results of "Confessions"
        >
        > >
        >
        > > "old english" - no occurrences
        >
        > > "king james" - one occurrence (p 117) but not related to a discussion of Twitchell's use of thee and ye.
        >
        > > "thee" - numerous, but Ford actually uses the word 'thee' in some of his HCS affirmations.
        >
        > >
        >
        > > But Ford is allowed to use thee since he was raised in the United States. Plus, I think that if Ford was questioned, he would acknowledge that he probably got the word "thee" from reading the King James version of the Bible. I don't think Twitchell would acknowledge that Rebazar got the word "thee" from reading the King James version of the Bible, or from somehow being exposed to Old English which was spoken from 450 to 1150.
        >
        > >
        >
        > > Questions for further study.
        >
        > > 1. Did all the Eck masters use thee and ye? Or just Rebazar?
        >
        > > 2. Did these Eck masters speak that way just because they knew Twitchell would feel comfortable with it?
        >
        > > 3. Did any of Paul's actual gurus such as Kirpal Singh or Premananda use thee and ye in their speech?
        >
        > >
        >
      • jonathanjohns96
        Prometheus, Thank you for the comments. I found them to be very helpful and very healing. Jonathan
        Message 3 of 22 , Sep 15, 2010
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          Prometheus,

          Thank you for the comments. I found them to be very helpful and very healing.

          Jonathan
        • prometheus_973
          Hello Jonathan, Thanks. I don t know what I said, but thanks anyway. Sometimes I think I should write and thank Klemp for being such a boring wannabe who lacks
          Message 4 of 22 , Sep 16, 2010
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            Hello Jonathan,
            Thanks. I don't know what I said,
            but thanks anyway. Sometimes
            I think I should write and thank
            Klemp for being such a boring
            wannabe who lacks charisma.

            BTW-Imagine how many more
            ECKists there would be, now, if
            Klemp had even close to the same
            amount of charisma as Twitchell
            or Gross had.

            Plus, it seems that Klemp has
            been in semi-retirement for
            a number of years now. This
            semi-seclusion/retirement
            became more apparent when
            he stopped traveling to major
            ECK Seminars. I'm thinking that
            he made more "cheesy" health
            excuses to in order to justify
            his changes in behaviour and
            not wanting to travel.

            Remember the time HK talked
            about eating too much cheese
            and this had a negative health
            effect upon him? He probably
            got constipated! It was stupid
            on his part, but isn't that called
            gluttony too and is one of the
            Five Passions of the Mind. One
            would think that a Mahanta
            (although not perfect) would
            be higher in consciousness.

            However, Klemp turns even his
            own lack of consciousness and
            common sense around and uses
            his ill health as an excuse. His
            illnesses have now become the
            result of taking on more Karma
            for his chelas and acting as a karmic
            "holding tank" so that his Chelas
            and H.I.s can advance in consciousness
            and, thereby, in their initiations.

            How's that worked out for ECKists?
            In Eckankar today there are even
            more restrictions/requirements
            for H.I.s to qualify for the next
            higher initiation and title (i.e. cleric,
            initiator, ESA, RESA). And, thanks
            to Klemp, there are no longer
            Major ECK Seminars in California
            and Florida in the colder months
            of Oct. and March-April.

            BTW- Don't "Holding Tanks" get
            emptied so that more can be taken
            in? It's an on-going process/cycle
            kind of like using that old "Snow
            Ball Technique" over and over again.

            Well, this is all a moot point isn't
            it. Klemp has no powers... he's a
            fraud. I can see why he seems meek,
            at times, since he is aware that it's
            all a game he's playing and that
            any day now he'll be discovered
            for being a fraud. That's why he's
            not letting ECKists know where
            all the money is going since he's
            hide enough away to take care
            of himself just in case. But, what
            will that take for more ECKists to
            see through the facade? I don't know...
            maybe HK dropping over dead or
            having a stroke or maybe cancer?

            Don't get me wrong... I'd never
            wish that on anyone, but it happens
            everyday to all kinds of people and
            even to H.I.s. (of course). Yes, H.I.s
            are not special, and they get cancer
            too! Thus, Klemp is not exempt
            from this happening to him. Look
            at Twitchell... he didn't predict
            his heart attack and death! But,
            according to his own EK scripture
            (as the LEM/Mahanta) he should
            have known well in advance as
            to when he would be translating.

            However, in "Difficulties Of Being
            The Living ECK Master" Paul was
            meeting with his inner circle of
            H.I.s (in a business meeting) on
            the day of his death. The notes
            and comments of that meeting
            are given here. And, PT was making
            plans for his future with Eckankar
            in this meeting. Paul gave no indication
            (just the opposite) of his impending
            death on that very same night.

            This is just one more reason as
            to why this historical ECK book
            was not republished by Eckankar
            (Klemp). It's not like "Difficulties"
            can't be republished/reprinted
            since Eckankar has its own printing
            equipment, does the publishing,
            and owns PT's copyrights. Thus,
            this is just one more cover-up
            showing that Eckankar is simply
            another false teaching/religion
            that can't keep it's promises in/for
            this Here and Now.

            Prometheus





            Jonathan wrote:

            Prometheus,

            Thank you for the comments. I found them to be very helpful and very healing.

            Jonathan
          • postekcon
            EKULT, AN APPRAISAL I remember the ekult I joined 1970 s. It seemed alive, vibrant, a movement which seemed to know what it was about and where it was going!
            Message 5 of 22 , Sep 17, 2010
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              EKULT, AN APPRAISAL

              I remember the ekult I joined 1970's. It seemed alive, vibrant, a movement which seemed to know what it was about and where it was going! Under the charismatic and artistic leadership of Darwin Gross membership numbers grew and grew. Because the movement was 'CURRENT' for the consciousness of those times, new members came with minimal recruitment effort!

              We were excited. Ekult promised us it had the 'tools' to experience greater individualism, freedom and spiritual 'unfoldment', and we believed the hype! We had grown up in the 'Flower Power' era and listening to The Beatles music! We were interested in TM (transcendental meditation), we were interested in all things 'eastern' and wanted to know more. Paul Twitchell too, was in-tune with this consciousness, he was 'CURRENT' for the times. The mail order education system he founded, matched those needs. Ignoring all plagiaristic issues here, the books and discourses he compiled from the works of other authors satisfied us for several years.

              However consciousness, being fluid, changes, moves on and around and ekult got left behind! Ekult shot itself in the foot, the day it gave leadership to Harold Klemp. Unlike Paul Twitchell he has never been able to tune-in to the consciousness (keep 'current'), produce or even 'compile' works which are dynamic and relevant for the times.

              BTW- In the business world, when a product matches the market forces (consciousness) of the day, it is successful; it is never the other way round!

              You might like to observe the consciousness of youth and those who are under 30 years of age. They tend to live life to the extreme to the edge of experience e.g. extreme sports etc. They show NO fear of the creation of either sin or karma, or of the consequences of either, whether now or in a hereafter. This is why a karma-based, savior-style religion like the one HK develops makes no sense to their consciousness. Even their devoted ekult parents have been unable to indoctrinate them in ekult ways once they've left the childhood years. (HK himself included as such a parent, I believe!).

              Ekult is an organization born out of human arrogance! Consider this! What level of human arrogance is shown, where an earthly organization claims it has commandeered the very spirit of god (energy of the universe); claims it can trademark it in earthly law and then proceed to market it for profit!! This reminds me of a certain medieval church? It too claimed it had commandeered the way of 'salvation' for the gullible populace. That medieval church, with its resa-structure-style network of upwards reporting, soon descended the slippery slope to the 'Inquisition'. History has a habit of repeating itself…

              Perhaps if ekult had stayed with its original brief and admitted openly to the world, it had been founded as a 'reference' point for the best available philosophies and theories for living life, like a Wikipedia, then it might have remained 'CURRENT'. If only it had cleaned up its act, it could have evolved as an altruistic service and been of benefit to mankind today. Instead, seeing the opportunity for financial gain, HK and owner/s colluded to formulate yet another dead religion to add the world's list. The modus operandi reminds me again of that medieval church which once sold indulgences i.e. money to church in exchange for remission of sins in the hereafter! Similarly ekult devotees can gain prominence (get noticed) by spending lots of own time and money in ekult 'service', and are often rewarded with faster progress through the 'initiation' process. To put this very simply, in ekult, receipt of the next initiation signifies the remission of some sin (karma)!

              'Service' to ekult is always emphasized and hyped as being direct service to the spirit of god! But Catch22 here as ekult also says the true godhead is a Being so detached, it has no interest whether mortals service it or not! What a clever ruse to induce 'service' for ekult coffers and hide its mlm business model. For those of you who may be unfamiliar with how ekult sources funding. In addition to church-plate style donations etc., ekult followers (like mlm affiliates) are expected to service promotional events and fund from their personal wallet promotional materials and products. More importantly, there is also a legal understanding that donations, collected at local level, belong to ekult HQ, and amounts are uploaded accordingly!

              In conclusion, what of any future for ekult – there is none – it's already too late? To my observations what remains are isolated pockets of ekult devotees mostly seniors, mostly single females! Grayed-out, like inactive pc commands, I note the dynamism and energy, I once admired, is long long dead, while larger and ever larger pics of their cultic leader casts its shadow over them…
              -Postekcon



              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hello Jonathan,
              > Thanks. I don't know what I said,
              > but thanks anyway. Sometimes
              > I think I should write and thank
              > Klemp for being such a boring
              > wannabe who lacks charisma.
              >
              > BTW-Imagine how many more
              > ECKists there would be, now, if
              > Klemp had even close to the same
              > amount of charisma as Twitchell
              > or Gross had.
              >
              > Plus, it seems that Klemp has
              > been in semi-retirement for
              > a number of years now. This
              > semi-seclusion/retirement
              > became more apparent when
              > he stopped traveling to major
              > ECK Seminars. I'm thinking that
              > he made more "cheesy" health
              > excuses to in order to justify
              > his changes in behaviour and
              > not wanting to travel.
              >
              > Remember the time HK talked
              > about eating too much cheese
              > and this had a negative health
              > effect upon him? He probably
              > got constipated! It was stupid
              > on his part, but isn't that called
              > gluttony too and is one of the
              > Five Passions of the Mind. One
              > would think that a Mahanta
              > (although not perfect) would
              > be higher in consciousness.
              >
              > However, Klemp turns even his
              > own lack of consciousness and
              > common sense around and uses
              > his ill health as an excuse. His
              > illnesses have now become the
              > result of taking on more Karma
              > for his chelas and acting as a karmic
              > "holding tank" so that his Chelas
              > and H.I.s can advance in consciousness
              > and, thereby, in their initiations.
              >
              > How's that worked out for ECKists?
              > In Eckankar today there are even
              > more restrictions/requirements
              > for H.I.s to qualify for the next
              > higher initiation and title (i.e. cleric,
              > initiator, ESA, RESA). And, thanks
              > to Klemp, there are no longer
              > Major ECK Seminars in California
              > and Florida in the colder months
              > of Oct. and March-April.
              >
              > BTW- Don't "Holding Tanks" get
              > emptied so that more can be taken
              > in? It's an on-going process/cycle
              > kind of like using that old "Snow
              > Ball Technique" over and over again.
              >
              > Well, this is all a moot point isn't
              > it. Klemp has no powers... he's a
              > fraud. I can see why he seems meek,
              > at times, since he is aware that it's
              > all a game he's playing and that
              > any day now he'll be discovered
              > for being a fraud. That's why he's
              > not letting ECKists know where
              > all the money is going since he's
              > hide enough away to take care
              > of himself just in case. But, what
              > will that take for more ECKists to
              > see through the facade? I don't know...
              > maybe HK dropping over dead or
              > having a stroke or maybe cancer?
              >
              > Don't get me wrong... I'd never
              > wish that on anyone, but it happens
              > everyday to all kinds of people and
              > even to H.I.s. (of course). Yes, H.I.s
              > are not special, and they get cancer
              > too! Thus, Klemp is not exempt
              > from this happening to him. Look
              > at Twitchell... he didn't predict
              > his heart attack and death! But,
              > according to his own EK scripture
              > (as the LEM/Mahanta) he should
              > have known well in advance as
              > to when he would be translating.
              >
              > However, in "Difficulties Of Being
              > The Living ECK Master" Paul was
              > meeting with his inner circle of
              > H.I.s (in a business meeting) on
              > the day of his death. The notes
              > and comments of that meeting
              > are given here. And, PT was making
              > plans for his future with Eckankar
              > in this meeting. Paul gave no indication
              > (just the opposite) of his impending
              > death on that very same night.
              >
              > This is just one more reason as
              > to why this historical ECK book
              > was not republished by Eckankar
              > (Klemp). It's not like "Difficulties"
              > can't be republished/reprinted
              > since Eckankar has its own printing
              > equipment, does the publishing,
              > and owns PT's copyrights. Thus,
              > this is just one more cover-up
              > showing that Eckankar is simply
              > another false teaching/religion
              > that can't keep it's promises in/for
              > this Here and Now.
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Jonathan wrote:
              >
              > Prometheus,
              >
              > Thank you for the comments. I found them to be very helpful and very healing.
              >
              > Jonathan
              >
            • jonathanjohns96
              JJ - Please note. I only pulled forward postekcon s message. I m going to comment on each paragraph. ... JJ - I joined in 1979, and I can confirm that your
              Message 6 of 22 , Sep 17, 2010
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                JJ - Please note. I only pulled forward postekcon's message. I'm going to comment on each paragraph.


                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "postekcon" <postekcon@...> wrote:
                >
                > EKULT, AN APPRAISAL
                >
                > postekcon > I remember the ekult I joined 1970's. It seemed alive, vibrant, a movement which seemed to know what it was about and where it was going! Under the charismatic and artistic leadership of Darwin Gross membership numbers grew and grew. Because the movement was 'CURRENT' for the consciousness of those times, new members came with minimal recruitment effort!
                >

                JJ - I joined in 1979, and I can confirm that your description fits Eckankar very well for the 1979 time frame. You really made a very nice description here. I always thought there was a big difference between Eckankar when I joined in 1979 and Eckankar after Klemp had been in charge for awhile. Your description of Eckankar in the 1970s is beautiful.

                > postekcon > We were excited. Ekult promised us it had the 'tools' to experience greater individualism, freedom and spiritual 'unfoldment', and we believed the hype! We had grown up in the 'Flower Power' era and listening to The Beatles music! We were interested in TM (transcendental meditation), we were interested in all things 'eastern' and wanted to know more. Paul Twitchell too, was in-tune with this consciousness, he was 'CURRENT' for the times. The mail order education system he founded, matched those needs. Ignoring all plagiaristic issues here, the books and discourses he compiled from the works of other authors satisfied us for several years.

                JJ - Another beautiful description of Eckankar in the 1970s under Gross. I agree completely with your description and comments. Back when I joined in 1979, being interested in "eastern traditions" was OK, even well thought of in Eckankar and in many other parts of society as well. Then under Klemp, he got the "bright" [<-- sarcasm] idea that this was keeping members away. So he steered Eckankar in the direction of imitating Christianity as a way of increasing the membership. Experience has shown that this was a miserable failure in terms of bringing members into Eckankar. After all, other than saying that the HU is a prayer, the underlying teachings are still like the Eastern religions which Eckankar copied (Sant Mant, etc.).

                >
                > postekcon > However consciousness, being fluid, changes, moves on and around and ekult got left behind! Ekult shot itself in the foot, the day it gave leadership to Harold Klemp. Unlike Paul Twitchell he has never been able to tune-in to the consciousness (keep 'current'), produce or even 'compile' works which are dynamic and relevant for the times.
                >

                JJ - I agree 100% with your statement that "Ekult shot itself in the foot, the day it gave leadership to Harold Klemp." In fact, I had the same thought a few days ago. Even the same metaphor! Your view that it had to do with Klemp's inability to tune into the consciousness of the times is what I disagree with. I don't think Klemp was trying to that in any genuine way. He was only trying to tune into the consciousness of the times by asking the question "How can we get new members into Eckankar?" The answer he came up with was "Make Eckankar look like Christianity on the surface." I think Eckankar should have been honest and true to its roots and promoted itself for what it is: a copy of Sant Mant, etc., which has been modified for Westerners. Instead, Klemp turned Eckankar into something with a thin veneer of Christianity, but with the same basic Eastern teachings underneath (if you look hard enough), but now emphasizing the use of dreams for spiritual unfoldment.

                > postekcon > BTW- In the business world, when a product matches the market forces (consciousness) of the day, it is successful; it is never the other way round!
                >
                > postekcon > You might like to observe the consciousness of youth and those who are under 30 years of age. They tend to live life to the extreme to the edge of experience e.g. extreme sports etc. They show NO fear of the creation of either sin or karma, or of the consequences of either, whether now or in a hereafter. This is why a karma-based, savior-style religion like the one HK develops makes no sense to their consciousness. Even their devoted ekult parents have been unable to indoctrinate them in ekult ways once they've left the childhood years. (HK himself included as such a parent, I believe!).
                >

                JJ - ECKANKAR IMITATED CHRISTIANITY. What you say about the under 30 crowd is very true. But that same group of people joined Eckankar like crazy under Gross in the 1970s. Eckankar, as it was originally set up by Twitchell, and maintained by Gross, is never going to be for everyone. It is always going to be for a small minority of people. I think Eckankar's failings in recruitment since 1990 is due to the fact that instead of being true to themselves, they started imitating everyone else. If you have a unique product, why would you ruin your business by starting to imitate everyone else? Eckankar hired a Madison Avenue firm to analyze Eckankar. Klemp spoke about it in one of his talks. Klemp joked that they recommended that Eckankar send Rebazar on a tour around the United States. I think what really happened, is that this report told Eckankar that the Eastern words and concepts were keeping new members away because Eckankar's pool of possible new members is basically people who come from a Christian background, regardless of whether they practice it seriously or not.

                JJ - ECKANKAR IS A PASSIVE APPROACH TO SPIRITUAL UNFOLDMENT. But the most important issue here may be because Eckankar is a very passive approach (this policy is actually consistent with its Eastern predecessors). And most young people today are not into being passive. Quite the opposite! Under Klemp, Eckankar started emphasizing the use of dreams for spiritual unfoldment. Everything else in Eckankar took a back seat to this approach. And Eckankar today still emphasizes surrendering to the master but much more than Twitchell and Gross did. Again, something that is VERY passive. By the time I left Eckankar in 2008 I was sick of reading Klemp's constant requests in the Mystic World that people love him, etc or they would spiritually hold themselves back. This is NOT what young people today are interested in. They are interested in taking charge and actively pursuing spiritual unfoldment. NOT following the passive approaches put forth by Eckankar. If Eckankar is having any success at all it is because it somehow manages to brainwash some people into thinking that Eckankar's approach is active. But as we all know, it is actually sending people in a direction that keeps them slaves to Eckankar by keeping them in a passive mode of functioning: (1) using dreams for spiritual unfoldment, and (2) relying on a master whom you surrender yourself to.

                JJ - A quasi-Christian-underlying-Eastern religion emphasizing passive techniques such as dreams for spiritual unfoldment, and requiring people to "surrender to a master" may not be matching the consciousness of today. It just seems that fewer and fewr Westerners are falling for this crap.

                > postekcon > Ekult is an organization born out of human arrogance! Consider this! What level of human arrogance is shown, where an earthly organization claims it has commandeered the very spirit of god (energy of the universe); claims it can trademark it in earthly law and then proceed to market it for profit!! This reminds me of a certain medieval church? It too claimed it had commandeered the way of 'salvation' for the gullible populace. That medieval church, with its resa-structure-style network of upwards reporting, soon descended the slippery slope to the 'Inquisition'. History has a habit of repeating itself…
                >

                JJ - I can't comment about the middle ages because I have no knowledge about it. But you are right about the arrogance of Eckankar trademarking God. As I have written about it before on ET (Eckankar Truth message board) and/or ESA, it is blasphemy against God to think that you can trademark God. Eckankar also trademarked their particular sound of God: HU.

                > postekcon > Perhaps if ekult had stayed with its original brief and admitted openly to the world, it had been founded as a 'reference' point for the best available philosophies and theories for living life, like a Wikipedia, then it might have remained 'CURRENT'. If only it had cleaned up its act, it could have evolved as an altruistic service and been of benefit to mankind today. Instead, seeing the opportunity for financial gain, HK and owner/s colluded to formulate yet another dead religion to add the world's list. The modus operandi reminds me again of that medieval church which once sold indulgences i.e. money to church in exchange for remission of sins in the hereafter! Similarly ekult devotees can gain prominence (get noticed) by spending lots of own time and money in ekult 'service', and are often rewarded with faster progress through the 'initiation' process. To put this very simply, in ekult, receipt of the next initiation signifies the remission of some sin (karma)!
                >

                JJ - One person, Prometheus (on this message board) has written extensively about the "services get rewards" process in Eckankar. I'm sure that both of you are correct. Believe it or not, I was never aware of that in my 29 years in Eckankar (1979-2008). I was out of touch with the actual "goings on" at the local Eck center. I was living in my own world. As a result, much happier, but completely out of touch with what was really going on in Eckankar. In my latter years I had been reading some things about it on the Internet such as Darwin's legal deposition. Honestly, if it wasn't for the Internet, I don't think I would ever found out the truth about Eckankar.

                JJ - I think there is some truth to your theory as stated in the beginning of your paragraph. When Klemp took over, he no doubt was made privy to the large amount of plagiarism/lies/exaggerations by Paul Twitchell. He had two choices, either "come clean" or cover it up in order to continue Eckankar's money-making scam. He chose to continue Eckankar's money-making scam. I believe that is what you are saying.

                JJ - Question. In your first sentence, did you mean "beliefs" instead of "breif?" That makes more sense to me.

                > postekcon > 'Service' to ekult is always emphasized and hyped as being direct service to the spirit of god! But Catch22 here as ekult also says the true godhead is a Being so detached, it has no interest whether mortals service it or not! What a clever ruse to induce 'service' for ekult coffers and hide its mlm business model. For those of you who may be unfamiliar with how ekult sources funding. In addition to church-plate style donations etc., ekult followers (like mlm affiliates) are expected to service promotional events and fund from their personal wallet promotional materials and products. More importantly, there is also a legal understanding that donations, collected at local level, belong to ekult HQ, and amounts are uploaded accordingly!
                >

                JJ - Eckankar has a lot of hypocrisy. They speak for God, but in the end it is always about financial gain for Eckankar. But your main point is specifically that in Eckankar "Service for God" is really "Money for Eckankar."

                JJ - Question. What is "mlm?"

                >
                > postekcon > In conclusion, what of any future for ekult – there is none – it's already too late? To my observations what remains are isolated pockets of ekult devotees mostly seniors, mostly single females! Grayed-out, like inactive pc commands, I note the dynamism and energy, I once admired, is long long dead, while larger and ever larger pics of their cultic leader casts its shadow over them…
                > -Postekcon
                >

                JJ - Very eloquent writing on your part. I agree that it is mostly the oldsters that are keeping Eckankar going. I mentioned this in one of my first posts on ET/ESA when I first left Eckankar in December of 2008. I think there are fewer and fewer potential new members who are interested in Klemp's dream-based version of Eckankar. In other words, the emphasizing of dreams for spiritual unfoldment. In my own experiences, all of my work was in full consciousness actually talking to Eck masters on the inner. For that, I was made to feel like a heretic and pariah when I started telling the Eckists over at a.r.e about it. While in Eckankar, I didn't even dare mention it to all but two or three people. So anyone who has capabilities beyond the "dreaming" techniques currently in Eckankar, you would be better off choosing a more advanced path. I don't know what it is, but you might consider a real Native American shaman if you can find one, and if you can handle the rigors of that. An it's not "easy" like Eckankar is. Looking at the big picture, I think it might be OK to get some basic spiritual awareness under Eckankar or some other religion, but after that, move on, because Eckankar has little to offer.

                JJ - So, postekcon, thanks for your post. It was very well written, and very eloquently written. You made a lot of points, and I agree with virtually all of them.

                Jonathan
              • prometheus_973
                Hello All, I saw the following and it reminded me of something: JJ - I agree 100% with your statement that Ekult shot itself in the foot, the day it gave
                Message 7 of 22 , Sep 18, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hello All,
                  I saw the following and it reminded me
                  of something:

                  "JJ - I agree 100% with your statement that "Ekult shot itself in the foot, the
                  day it gave leadership to Harold Klemp." In fact, I had the same thought a few
                  days ago. Even the same metaphor! Your view that it had to do with Klemp's
                  inability to tune into the consciousness of the times is what I disagree with. I
                  don't think Klemp was trying to that in any genuine way. He was only trying to
                  tune into the consciousness of the times by asking the question "How can we get
                  new members into Eckankar?" The answer he came up with was "Make Eckankar look
                  like Christianity on the surface." I think Eckankar should have been honest and
                  true to its roots and promoted itself for what it is: a copy of Sant Mant, etc.,
                  which has been modified for Westerners. Instead, Klemp turned Eckankar into
                  something with a thin veneer of Christianity, but with the same basic Eastern
                  teachings underneath (if you look hard enough), but now emphasizing the use of
                  dreams for spiritual unfoldment."

                  [P] Klemp changing the direction of Eckankar
                  towards Christianity with Sunday Worship Services,
                  etc. reminded me of the movie of "Silence of
                  the Lambs." The FBI agent tracked "Buffalo Bill"
                  down by looking at where and what he coveted.

                  The same came be applied to Klemp. He was
                  attending a Luteran Seminary to become a
                  preacher/minister. Thus, he took Eckankar
                  in a direction away from the Eastern Teachings
                  and closer to what he knew and had been
                  trained in. And, since most Eckists come from
                  a Christian background and the fact that this
                  is still, for the most part, a Christian country
                  (as is Europe) this makes for a familiar fit.

                  Got to go now.

                  Prometheus


                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96" <jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > JJ - Please note. I only pulled forward postekcon's message. I'm going to comment on each paragraph.
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "postekcon" <postekcon@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > EKULT, AN APPRAISAL
                  > >
                  > > postekcon > I remember the ekult I joined 1970's. It seemed alive, vibrant, a movement which seemed to know what it was about and where it was going! Under the charismatic and artistic leadership of Darwin Gross membership numbers grew and grew. Because the movement was 'CURRENT' for the consciousness of those times, new members came with minimal recruitment effort!
                  > >
                  >
                  > JJ - I joined in 1979, and I can confirm that your description fits Eckankar very well for the 1979 time frame. You really made a very nice description here. I always thought there was a big difference between Eckankar when I joined in 1979 and Eckankar after Klemp had been in charge for awhile. Your description of Eckankar in the 1970s is beautiful.
                  >
                  > > postekcon > We were excited. Ekult promised us it had the 'tools' to experience greater individualism, freedom and spiritual 'unfoldment', and we believed the hype! We had grown up in the 'Flower Power' era and listening to The Beatles music! We were interested in TM (transcendental meditation), we were interested in all things 'eastern' and wanted to know more. Paul Twitchell too, was in-tune with this consciousness, he was 'CURRENT' for the times. The mail order education system he founded, matched those needs. Ignoring all plagiaristic issues here, the books and discourses he compiled from the works of other authors satisfied us for several years.
                  >
                  > JJ - Another beautiful description of Eckankar in the 1970s under Gross. I agree completely with your description and comments. Back when I joined in 1979, being interested in "eastern traditions" was OK, even well thought of in Eckankar and in many other parts of society as well. Then under Klemp, he got the "bright" [<-- sarcasm] idea that this was keeping members away. So he steered Eckankar in the direction of imitating Christianity as a way of increasing the membership. Experience has shown that this was a miserable failure in terms of bringing members into Eckankar. After all, other than saying that the HU is a prayer, the underlying teachings are still like the Eastern religions which Eckankar copied (Sant Mant, etc.).
                  >
                  > >
                  > > postekcon > However consciousness, being fluid, changes, moves on and around and ekult got left behind! Ekult shot itself in the foot, the day it gave leadership to Harold Klemp. Unlike Paul Twitchell he has never been able to tune-in to the consciousness (keep 'current'), produce or even 'compile' works which are dynamic and relevant for the times.
                  > >
                  >
                  > JJ - I agree 100% with your statement that "Ekult shot itself in the foot, the day it gave leadership to Harold Klemp." In fact, I had the same thought a few days ago. Even the same metaphor! Your view that it had to do with Klemp's inability to tune into the consciousness of the times is what I disagree with. I don't think Klemp was trying to that in any genuine way. He was only trying to tune into the consciousness of the times by asking the question "How can we get new members into Eckankar?" The answer he came up with was "Make Eckankar look like Christianity on the surface." I think Eckankar should have been honest and true to its roots and promoted itself for what it is: a copy of Sant Mant, etc., which has been modified for Westerners. Instead, Klemp turned Eckankar into something with a thin veneer of Christianity, but with the same basic Eastern teachings underneath (if you look hard enough), but now emphasizing the use of dreams for spiritual unfoldment.
                  >
                  > > postekcon > BTW- In the business world, when a product matches the market forces (consciousness) of the day, it is successful; it is never the other way round!
                  > >
                  > > postekcon > You might like to observe the consciousness of youth and those who are under 30 years of age. They tend to live life to the extreme to the edge of experience e.g. extreme sports etc. They show NO fear of the creation of either sin or karma, or of the consequences of either, whether now or in a hereafter. This is why a karma-based, savior-style religion like the one HK develops makes no sense to their consciousness. Even their devoted ekult parents have been unable to indoctrinate them in ekult ways once they've left the childhood years. (HK himself included as such a parent, I believe!).
                  > >
                  >
                  > JJ - ECKANKAR IMITATED CHRISTIANITY. What you say about the under 30 crowd is very true. But that same group of people joined Eckankar like crazy under Gross in the 1970s. Eckankar, as it was originally set up by Twitchell, and maintained by Gross, is never going to be for everyone. It is always going to be for a small minority of people. I think Eckankar's failings in recruitment since 1990 is due to the fact that instead of being true to themselves, they started imitating everyone else. If you have a unique product, why would you ruin your business by starting to imitate everyone else? Eckankar hired a Madison Avenue firm to analyze Eckankar. Klemp spoke about it in one of his talks. Klemp joked that they recommended that Eckankar send Rebazar on a tour around the United States. I think what really happened, is that this report told Eckankar that the Eastern words and concepts were keeping new members away because Eckankar's pool of possible new members is basically people who come from a Christian background, regardless of whether they practice it seriously or not.
                  >
                  > JJ - ECKANKAR IS A PASSIVE APPROACH TO SPIRITUAL UNFOLDMENT. But the most important issue here may be because Eckankar is a very passive approach (this policy is actually consistent with its Eastern predecessors). And most young people today are not into being passive. Quite the opposite! Under Klemp, Eckankar started emphasizing the use of dreams for spiritual unfoldment. Everything else in Eckankar took a back seat to this approach. And Eckankar today still emphasizes surrendering to the master but much more than Twitchell and Gross did. Again, something that is VERY passive. By the time I left Eckankar in 2008 I was sick of reading Klemp's constant requests in the Mystic World that people love him, etc or they would spiritually hold themselves back. This is NOT what young people today are interested in. They are interested in taking charge and actively pursuing spiritual unfoldment. NOT following the passive approaches put forth by Eckankar. If Eckankar is having any success at all it is because it somehow manages to brainwash some people into thinking that Eckankar's approach is active. But as we all know, it is actually sending people in a direction that keeps them slaves to Eckankar by keeping them in a passive mode of functioning: (1) using dreams for spiritual unfoldment, and (2) relying on a master whom you surrender yourself to.
                  >
                  > JJ - A quasi-Christian-underlying-Eastern religion emphasizing passive techniques such as dreams for spiritual unfoldment, and requiring people to "surrender to a master" may not be matching the consciousness of today. It just seems that fewer and fewr Westerners are falling for this crap.
                  >
                  > > postekcon > Ekult is an organization born out of human arrogance! Consider this! What level of human arrogance is shown, where an earthly organization claims it has commandeered the very spirit of god (energy of the universe); claims it can trademark it in earthly law and then proceed to market it for profit!! This reminds me of a certain medieval church? It too claimed it had commandeered the way of 'salvation' for the gullible populace. That medieval church, with its resa-structure-style network of upwards reporting, soon descended the slippery slope to the 'Inquisition'. History has a habit of repeating itself…
                  > >
                  >
                  > JJ - I can't comment about the middle ages because I have no knowledge about it. But you are right about the arrogance of Eckankar trademarking God. As I have written about it before on ET (Eckankar Truth message board) and/or ESA, it is blasphemy against God to think that you can trademark God. Eckankar also trademarked their particular sound of God: HU.
                  >
                  > > postekcon > Perhaps if ekult had stayed with its original brief and admitted openly to the world, it had been founded as a 'reference' point for the best available philosophies and theories for living life, like a Wikipedia, then it might have remained 'CURRENT'. If only it had cleaned up its act, it could have evolved as an altruistic service and been of benefit to mankind today. Instead, seeing the opportunity for financial gain, HK and owner/s colluded to formulate yet another dead religion to add the world's list. The modus operandi reminds me again of that medieval church which once sold indulgences i.e. money to church in exchange for remission of sins in the hereafter! Similarly ekult devotees can gain prominence (get noticed) by spending lots of own time and money in ekult 'service', and are often rewarded with faster progress through the 'initiation' process. To put this very simply, in ekult, receipt of the next initiation signifies the remission of some sin (karma)!
                  > >
                  >
                  > JJ - One person, Prometheus (on this message board) has written extensively about the "services get rewards" process in Eckankar. I'm sure that both of you are correct. Believe it or not, I was never aware of that in my 29 years in Eckankar (1979-2008). I was out of touch with the actual "goings on" at the local Eck center. I was living in my own world. As a result, much happier, but completely out of touch with what was really going on in Eckankar. In my latter years I had been reading some things about it on the Internet such as Darwin's legal deposition. Honestly, if it wasn't for the Internet, I don't think I would ever found out the truth about Eckankar.
                  >
                  > JJ - I think there is some truth to your theory as stated in the beginning of your paragraph. When Klemp took over, he no doubt was made privy to the large amount of plagiarism/lies/exaggerations by Paul Twitchell. He had two choices, either "come clean" or cover it up in order to continue Eckankar's money-making scam. He chose to continue Eckankar's money-making scam. I believe that is what you are saying.
                  >
                  > JJ - Question. In your first sentence, did you mean "beliefs" instead of "breif?" That makes more sense to me.
                  >
                  > > postekcon > 'Service' to ekult is always emphasized and hyped as being direct service to the spirit of god! But Catch22 here as ekult also says the true godhead is a Being so detached, it has no interest whether mortals service it or not! What a clever ruse to induce 'service' for ekult coffers and hide its mlm business model. For those of you who may be unfamiliar with how ekult sources funding. In addition to church-plate style donations etc., ekult followers (like mlm affiliates) are expected to service promotional events and fund from their personal wallet promotional materials and products. More importantly, there is also a legal understanding that donations, collected at local level, belong to ekult HQ, and amounts are uploaded accordingly!
                  > >
                  >
                  > JJ - Eckankar has a lot of hypocrisy. They speak for God, but in the end it is always about financial gain for Eckankar. But your main point is specifically that in Eckankar "Service for God" is really "Money for Eckankar."
                  >
                  > JJ - Question. What is "mlm?"
                  >
                  > >
                  > > postekcon > In conclusion, what of any future for ekult – there is none – it's already too late? To my observations what remains are isolated pockets of ekult devotees mostly seniors, mostly single females! Grayed-out, like inactive pc commands, I note the dynamism and energy, I once admired, is long long dead, while larger and ever larger pics of their cultic leader casts its shadow over them…
                  > > -Postekcon
                  > >
                  >
                  > JJ - Very eloquent writing on your part. I agree that it is mostly the oldsters that are keeping Eckankar going. I mentioned this in one of my first posts on ET/ESA when I first left Eckankar in December of 2008. I think there are fewer and fewer potential new members who are interested in Klemp's dream-based version of Eckankar. In other words, the emphasizing of dreams for spiritual unfoldment. In my own experiences, all of my work was in full consciousness actually talking to Eck masters on the inner. For that, I was made to feel like a heretic and pariah when I started telling the Eckists over at a.r.e about it. While in Eckankar, I didn't even dare mention it to all but two or three people. So anyone who has capabilities beyond the "dreaming" techniques currently in Eckankar, you would be better off choosing a more advanced path. I don't know what it is, but you might consider a real Native American shaman if you can find one, and if you can handle the rigors of that. An it's not "easy" like Eckankar is. Looking at the big picture, I think it might be OK to get some basic spiritual awareness under Eckankar or some other religion, but after that, move on, because Eckankar has little to offer.
                  >
                  > JJ - So, postekcon, thanks for your post. It was very well written, and very eloquently written. You made a lot of points, and I agree with virtually all of them.
                  >
                  > Jonathan
                  >
                • etznab@aol.com
                  I could identify with a number of points in that appraisal. I liked this part especially: BTW- In the business world, when a product matches the market forces
                  Message 8 of 22 , Sep 18, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I could identify with a number of points in
                    that appraisal. I liked this part especially:

                    "BTW- In the business world, when a product
                    matches the market forces (consciousness)
                    of the day, it is successful; it is never the
                    other way round!"

                    And about the youth, and consciousness,
                    the youth of today have easy access to a
                    lot more information and sources of inform-
                    ation for research purposes, where most of
                    the older generations had the library and a
                    card catalog.

                    I'd often thought about Paul Twitchell in the
                    library, compiling and researching. And now
                    I ask myself: WHY DID IT EVER STOP?

                    Today, with the resources available, people
                    can not only look at materials that Paul T.
                    compiled & researched from, but they can
                    take it further by continuing to compile and
                    research (not forgetting to cite references &
                    credit sources, of course). However, how
                    much does it happen in organized religion?
                    Because, doesn't it challenge the traditional
                    existing dogma whenever a person decides
                    to improve on it? Or, go beyond it? (Not to
                    mention, expose it, give some history of it
                    and show where it REALLY came from.)

                    What are Eckankar's chances of seeing a
                    "REFORMATION"? Personally, I think it's
                    inevitable. The organization will change, or
                    will become another fossil religion. Both of
                    these forces are working antagonistic to
                    one another in the lives of many people to-
                    day, IMO. There is the traditional religious
                    dogma and there is the need to change it.
                    Some want change, and others are afraid
                    of what that will mean to the old cherished
                    dogma.

                    Etznab

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: postekcon <postekcon@...>
                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Fri, Sep 17, 2010 2:40 am
                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: All ECKists Should Respond To
                    This In Order To Vent

                     
                    EKULT, AN APPRAISAL

                    I remember the ekult I joined 1970's. It seemed alive, vibrant, a
                    movement which seemed to know what it was about and where it was going!
                    Under the charismatic and artistic leadership of Darwin Gross
                    membership numbers grew and grew. Because the movement was 'CURRENT'
                    for the consciousness of those times, new members came with minimal
                    recruitment effort!

                    We were excited. Ekult promised us it had the 'tools' to experience
                    greater individualism, freedom and spiritual 'unfoldment', and we
                    believed the hype! We had grown up in the 'Flower Power' era and
                    listening to The Beatles music! We were interested in TM
                    (transcendental meditation), we were interested in all things 'eastern'
                    and wanted to know more. Paul Twitchell too, was in-tune with this
                    consciousness, he was 'CURRENT' for the times. The mail order education
                    system he founded, matched those needs. Ignoring all plagiaristic
                    issues here, the books and discourses he compiled from the works of
                    other authors satisfied us for several years.

                    However consciousness, being fluid, changes, moves on and around and
                    ekult got left behind! Ekult shot itself in the foot, the day it gave
                    leadership to Harold Klemp. Unlike Paul Twitchell he has never been
                    able to tune-in to the consciousness (keep 'current'), produce or even
                    'compile' works which are dynamic and relevant for the times.

                    BTW- In the business world, when a product matches the market forces
                    (consciousness) of the day, it is successful; it is never the other way
                    round!

                    You might like to observe the consciousness of youth and those who are
                    under 30 years of age. They tend to live life to the extreme to the
                    edge of experience e.g. extreme sports etc. They show NO fear of the
                    creation of either sin or karma, or of the consequences of either,
                    whether now or in a hereafter. This is why a karma-based, savior-style
                    religion like the one HK develops makes no sense to their
                    consciousness. Even their devoted ekult parents have been unable to
                    indoctrinate them in ekult ways once they've left the childhood years.
                    (HK himself included as such a parent, I believe!).

                    Ekult is an organization born out of human arrogance! Consider this!
                    What level of human arrogance is shown, where an earthly organization
                    claims it has commandeered the very spirit of god (energy of the
                    universe); claims it can trademark it in earthly law and then proceed
                    to market it for profit!! This reminds me of a certain medieval
                    church? It too claimed it had commandeered the way of 'salvation' for
                    the gullible populace. That medieval church, with its
                    resa-structure-style network of upwards reporting, soon descended the
                    slippery slope to the 'Inquisition'. History has a habit of repeating
                    itself…

                    Perhaps if ekult had stayed with its original brief and admitted openly
                    to the world, it had been founded as a 'reference' point for the best
                    available philosophies and theories for living life, like a Wikipedia,
                    then it might have remained 'CURRENT'. If only it had cleaned up its
                    act, it could have evolved as an altruistic service and been of benefit
                    to mankind today. Instead, seeing the opportunity for financial gain,
                    HK and owner/s colluded to formulate yet another dead religion to add
                    the world's list. The modus operandi reminds me again of that medieval
                    church which once sold indulgences i.e. money to church in exchange for
                    remission of sins in the hereafter! Similarly ekult devotees can gain
                    prominence (get noticed) by spending lots of own time and money in
                    ekult 'service', and are often rewarded with faster progress through
                    the 'initiation' process. To put this very simply, in ekult, receipt of
                    the next initiation signifies the remission of some sin (karma)!

                    'Service' to ekult is always emphasized and hyped as being direct
                    service to the spirit of god! But Catch22 here as ekult also says the
                    true godhead is a Being so detached, it has no interest whether mortals
                    service it or not! What a clever ruse to induce 'service' for ekult
                    coffers and hide its mlm business model. For those of you who may be
                    unfamiliar with how ekult sources funding. In addition to church-plate
                    style donations etc., ekult followers (like mlm affiliates) are
                    expected to service promotional events and fund from their personal
                    wallet promotional materials and products. More importantly, there is
                    also a legal understanding that donations, collected at local level,
                    belong to ekult HQ, and amounts are uploaded accordingly!

                    In conclusion, what of any future for ekult – there is none – it's
                    already too late? To my observations what remains are isolated pockets
                    of ekult devotees mostly seniors, mostly single females! Grayed-out,
                    like inactive pc commands, I note the dynamism and energy, I once
                    admired, is long long dead, while larger and ever larger pics of their
                    cultic leader casts its shadow over them…
                    -Postekcon

                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                    <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hello Jonathan,
                    > Thanks. I don't know what I said,
                    > but thanks anyway. Sometimes
                    > I think I should write and thank
                    > Klemp for being such a boring
                    > wannabe who lacks charisma.
                    >
                    > BTW-Imagine how many more
                    > ECKists there would be, now, if
                    > Klemp had even close to the same
                    > amount of charisma as Twitchell
                    > or Gross had.
                    >
                    > Plus, it seems that Klemp has
                    > been in semi-retirement for
                    > a number of years now. This
                    > semi-seclusion/retirement
                    > became more apparent when
                    > he stopped traveling to major
                    > ECK Seminars. I'm thinking that
                    > he made more "cheesy" health
                    > excuses to in order to justify
                    > his changes in behaviour and
                    > not wanting to travel.
                    >
                    > Remember the time HK talked
                    > about eating too much cheese
                    > and this had a negative health
                    > effect upon him? He probably
                    > got constipated! It was stupid
                    > on his part, but isn't that called
                    > gluttony too and is one of the
                    > Five Passions of the Mind. One
                    > would think that a Mahanta
                    > (although not perfect) would
                    > be higher in consciousness.
                    >
                    > However, Klemp turns even his
                    > own lack of consciousness and
                    > common sense around and uses
                    > his ill health as an excuse. His
                    > illnesses have now become the
                    > result of taking on more Karma
                    > for his chelas and acting as a karmic
                    > "holding tank" so that his Chelas
                    > and H.I.s can advance in consciousness
                    > and, thereby, in their initiations.
                    >
                    > How's that worked out for ECKists?
                    > In Eckankar today there are even
                    > more restrictions/requirements
                    > for H.I.s to qualify for the next
                    > higher initiation and title (i.e. cleric,
                    > initiator, ESA, RESA). And, thanks
                    > to Klemp, there are no longer
                    > Major ECK Seminars in California
                    > and Florida in the colder months
                    > of Oct. and March-April.
                    >
                    > BTW- Don't "Holding Tanks" get
                    > emptied so that more can be taken
                    > in? It's an on-going process/cycle
                    > kind of like using that old "Snow
                    > Ball Technique" over and over again.
                    >
                    > Well, this is all a moot point isn't
                    > it. Klemp has no powers... he's a
                    > fraud. I can see why he seems meek,
                    > at times, since he is aware that it's
                    > all a game he's playing and that
                    > any day now he'll be discovered
                    > for being a fraud. That's why he's
                    > not letting ECKists know where
                    > all the money is going since he's
                    > hide enough away to take care
                    > of himself just in case. But, what
                    > will that take for more ECKists to
                    > see through the facade? I don't know...
                    > maybe HK dropping over dead or
                    > having a stroke or maybe cancer?
                    >
                    > Don't get me wrong... I'd never
                    > wish that on anyone, but it happens
                    > everyday to all kinds of people and
                    > even to H.I.s. (of course). Yes, H.I.s
                    > are not special, and they get cancer
                    > too! Thus, Klemp is not exempt
                    > from this happening to him. Look
                    > at Twitchell... he didn't predict
                    > his heart attack and death! But,
                    > according to his own EK scripture
                    > (as the LEM/Mahanta) he should
                    > have known well in advance as
                    > to when he would be translating.
                    >
                    > However, in "Difficulties Of Being
                    > The Living ECK Master" Paul was
                    > meeting with his inner circle of
                    > H.I.s (in a business meeting) on
                    > the day of his death. The notes
                    > and comments of that meeting
                    > are given here. And, PT was making
                    > plans for his future with Eckankar
                    > in this meeting. Paul gave no indication
                    > (just the opposite) of his impending
                    > death on that very same night.
                    >
                    > This is just one more reason as
                    > to why this historical ECK book
                    > was not republished by Eckankar
                    > (Klemp). It's not like "Difficulties"
                    > can't be republished/reprinted
                    > since Eckankar has its own printing
                    > equipment, does the publishing,
                    > and owns PT's copyrights. Thus,
                    > this is just one more cover-up
                    > showing that Eckankar is simply
                    > another false teaching/religion
                    > that can't keep it's promises in/for
                    > this Here and Now.
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Jonathan wrote:
                    >
                    > Prometheus,
                    >
                    > Thank you for the comments. I found them to be very helpful and
                    very healing.
                    >
                    > Jonathan
                    >
                  • postekcon
                    Thank you all for responses... My reference to the medieval church and the indulgences issue, i.e. money to church in exchange for remission of sin in the
                    Message 9 of 22 , Sep 18, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Thank you all for responses...

                      My reference to the medieval church and the 'indulgences' issue, i.e. money to church in exchange for remission of sin in the hereafter, was a special point for HK himself, which he will fully understand from his Lutheran upbringing...

                      The indulgences issue was the great trigger point for the Protestant Reformation. The big irony here is LOL; we now see HK and his concocted church repeating history... 'Service' (time/money) to ekult in exchange for the remission of sin/karma!

                      The lem, due to his high initiation level, claims he is god's rep in all universes. So how come, it is only those who 'service' ekult who are on his fast-track to spiritual enlightenment?

                      A question, I know, many ekult devotees ask of themselves! Ekult is a religion where service to all life is recommended as a way of life! So why is it this 'service' must be in visible form for ekult, for it to actually count as 'service'?
                      -Postekcon
                      p.s. in original post, mlm = multi-level-marketing.



                      Jonathan &

                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
                      >
                      > I could identify with a number of points in
                      > that appraisal. I liked this part especially:
                      >
                      > "BTW- In the business world, when a product
                      > matches the market forces (consciousness)
                      > of the day, it is successful; it is never the
                      > other way round!"
                      >
                      > And about the youth, and consciousness,
                      > the youth of today have easy access to a
                      > lot more information and sources of inform-
                      > ation for research purposes, where most of
                      > the older generations had the library and a
                      > card catalog.
                      >
                      > I'd often thought about Paul Twitchell in the
                      > library, compiling and researching. And now
                      > I ask myself: WHY DID IT EVER STOP?
                      >
                      > Today, with the resources available, people
                      > can not only look at materials that Paul T.
                      > compiled & researched from, but they can
                      > take it further by continuing to compile and
                      > research (not forgetting to cite references &
                      > credit sources, of course). However, how
                      > much does it happen in organized religion?
                      > Because, doesn't it challenge the traditional
                      > existing dogma whenever a person decides
                      > to improve on it? Or, go beyond it? (Not to
                      > mention, expose it, give some history of it
                      > and show where it REALLY came from.)
                      >
                      > What are Eckankar's chances of seeing a
                      > "REFORMATION"? Personally, I think it's
                      > inevitable. The organization will change, or
                      > will become another fossil religion. Both of
                      > these forces are working antagonistic to
                      > one another in the lives of many people to-
                      > day, IMO. There is the traditional religious
                      > dogma and there is the need to change it.
                      > Some want change, and others are afraid
                      > of what that will mean to the old cherished
                      > dogma.
                      >
                      > Etznab
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: postekcon <postekcon@...>
                      > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Fri, Sep 17, 2010 2:40 am
                      > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: All ECKists Should Respond To
                      > This In Order To Vent
                      >
                      >  
                      > EKULT, AN APPRAISAL
                      >
                      > I remember the ekult I joined 1970's. It seemed alive, vibrant, a
                      > movement which seemed to know what it was about and where it was going!
                      > Under the charismatic and artistic leadership of Darwin Gross
                      > membership numbers grew and grew. Because the movement was 'CURRENT'
                      > for the consciousness of those times, new members came with minimal
                      > recruitment effort!
                      >
                      > We were excited. Ekult promised us it had the 'tools' to experience
                      > greater individualism, freedom and spiritual 'unfoldment', and we
                      > believed the hype! We had grown up in the 'Flower Power' era and
                      > listening to The Beatles music! We were interested in TM
                      > (transcendental meditation), we were interested in all things 'eastern'
                      > and wanted to know more. Paul Twitchell too, was in-tune with this
                      > consciousness, he was 'CURRENT' for the times. The mail order education
                      > system he founded, matched those needs. Ignoring all plagiaristic
                      > issues here, the books and discourses he compiled from the works of
                      > other authors satisfied us for several years.
                      >
                      > However consciousness, being fluid, changes, moves on and around and
                      > ekult got left behind! Ekult shot itself in the foot, the day it gave
                      > leadership to Harold Klemp. Unlike Paul Twitchell he has never been
                      > able to tune-in to the consciousness (keep 'current'), produce or even
                      > 'compile' works which are dynamic and relevant for the times.
                      >
                      > BTW- In the business world, when a product matches the market forces
                      > (consciousness) of the day, it is successful; it is never the other way
                      > round!
                      >
                      > You might like to observe the consciousness of youth and those who are
                      > under 30 years of age. They tend to live life to the extreme to the
                      > edge of experience e.g. extreme sports etc. They show NO fear of the
                      > creation of either sin or karma, or of the consequences of either,
                      > whether now or in a hereafter. This is why a karma-based, savior-style
                      > religion like the one HK develops makes no sense to their
                      > consciousness. Even their devoted ekult parents have been unable to
                      > indoctrinate them in ekult ways once they've left the childhood years.
                      > (HK himself included as such a parent, I believe!).
                      >
                      > Ekult is an organization born out of human arrogance! Consider this!
                      > What level of human arrogance is shown, where an earthly organization
                      > claims it has commandeered the very spirit of god (energy of the
                      > universe); claims it can trademark it in earthly law and then proceed
                      > to market it for profit!! This reminds me of a certain medieval
                      > church? It too claimed it had commandeered the way of 'salvation' for
                      > the gullible populace. That medieval church, with its
                      > resa-structure-style network of upwards reporting, soon descended the
                      > slippery slope to the 'Inquisition'. History has a habit of repeating
                      > itself…
                      >
                      > Perhaps if ekult had stayed with its original brief and admitted openly
                      > to the world, it had been founded as a 'reference' point for the best
                      > available philosophies and theories for living life, like a Wikipedia,
                      > then it might have remained 'CURRENT'. If only it had cleaned up its
                      > act, it could have evolved as an altruistic service and been of benefit
                      > to mankind today. Instead, seeing the opportunity for financial gain,
                      > HK and owner/s colluded to formulate yet another dead religion to add
                      > the world's list. The modus operandi reminds me again of that medieval
                      > church which once sold indulgences i.e. money to church in exchange for
                      > remission of sins in the hereafter! Similarly ekult devotees can gain
                      > prominence (get noticed) by spending lots of own time and money in
                      > ekult 'service', and are often rewarded with faster progress through
                      > the 'initiation' process. To put this very simply, in ekult, receipt of
                      > the next initiation signifies the remission of some sin (karma)!
                      >
                      > 'Service' to ekult is always emphasized and hyped as being direct
                      > service to the spirit of god! But Catch22 here as ekult also says the
                      > true godhead is a Being so detached, it has no interest whether mortals
                      > service it or not! What a clever ruse to induce 'service' for ekult
                      > coffers and hide its mlm business model. For those of you who may be
                      > unfamiliar with how ekult sources funding. In addition to church-plate
                      > style donations etc., ekult followers (like mlm affiliates) are
                      > expected to service promotional events and fund from their personal
                      > wallet promotional materials and products. More importantly, there is
                      > also a legal understanding that donations, collected at local level,
                      > belong to ekult HQ, and amounts are uploaded accordingly!
                      >
                      > In conclusion, what of any future for ekult â€" there is none â€" it's
                      > already too late? To my observations what remains are isolated pockets
                      > of ekult devotees mostly seniors, mostly single females! Grayed-out,
                      > like inactive pc commands, I note the dynamism and energy, I once
                      > admired, is long long dead, while larger and ever larger pics of their
                      > cultic leader casts its shadow over them…
                      > -Postekcon
                      >
                      > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                      > prometheus_973@ wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hello Jonathan,
                      > > Thanks. I don't know what I said,
                      > > but thanks anyway. Sometimes
                      > > I think I should write and thank
                      > > Klemp for being such a boring
                      > > wannabe who lacks charisma.
                      > >
                      > > BTW-Imagine how many more
                      > > ECKists there would be, now, if
                      > > Klemp had even close to the same
                      > > amount of charisma as Twitchell
                      > > or Gross had.
                      > >
                      > > Plus, it seems that Klemp has
                      > > been in semi-retirement for
                      > > a number of years now. This
                      > > semi-seclusion/retirement
                      > > became more apparent when
                      > > he stopped traveling to major
                      > > ECK Seminars. I'm thinking that
                      > > he made more "cheesy" health
                      > > excuses to in order to justify
                      > > his changes in behaviour and
                      > > not wanting to travel.
                      > >
                      > > Remember the time HK talked
                      > > about eating too much cheese
                      > > and this had a negative health
                      > > effect upon him? He probably
                      > > got constipated! It was stupid
                      > > on his part, but isn't that called
                      > > gluttony too and is one of the
                      > > Five Passions of the Mind. One
                      > > would think that a Mahanta
                      > > (although not perfect) would
                      > > be higher in consciousness.
                      > >
                      > > However, Klemp turns even his
                      > > own lack of consciousness and
                      > > common sense around and uses
                      > > his ill health as an excuse. His
                      > > illnesses have now become the
                      > > result of taking on more Karma
                      > > for his chelas and acting as a karmic
                      > > "holding tank" so that his Chelas
                      > > and H.I.s can advance in consciousness
                      > > and, thereby, in their initiations.
                      > >
                      > > How's that worked out for ECKists?
                      > > In Eckankar today there are even
                      > > more restrictions/requirements
                      > > for H.I.s to qualify for the next
                      > > higher initiation and title (i.e. cleric,
                      > > initiator, ESA, RESA). And, thanks
                      > > to Klemp, there are no longer
                      > > Major ECK Seminars in California
                      > > and Florida in the colder months
                      > > of Oct. and March-April.
                      > >
                      > > BTW- Don't "Holding Tanks" get
                      > > emptied so that more can be taken
                      > > in? It's an on-going process/cycle
                      > > kind of like using that old "Snow
                      > > Ball Technique" over and over again.
                      > >
                      > > Well, this is all a moot point isn't
                      > > it. Klemp has no powers... he's a
                      > > fraud. I can see why he seems meek,
                      > > at times, since he is aware that it's
                      > > all a game he's playing and that
                      > > any day now he'll be discovered
                      > > for being a fraud. That's why he's
                      > > not letting ECKists know where
                      > > all the money is going since he's
                      > > hide enough away to take care
                      > > of himself just in case. But, what
                      > > will that take for more ECKists to
                      > > see through the facade? I don't know...
                      > > maybe HK dropping over dead or
                      > > having a stroke or maybe cancer?
                      > >
                      > > Don't get me wrong... I'd never
                      > > wish that on anyone, but it happens
                      > > everyday to all kinds of people and
                      > > even to H.I.s. (of course). Yes, H.I.s
                      > > are not special, and they get cancer
                      > > too! Thus, Klemp is not exempt
                      > > from this happening to him. Look
                      > > at Twitchell... he didn't predict
                      > > his heart attack and death! But,
                      > > according to his own EK scripture
                      > > (as the LEM/Mahanta) he should
                      > > have known well in advance as
                      > > to when he would be translating.
                      > >
                      > > However, in "Difficulties Of Being
                      > > The Living ECK Master" Paul was
                      > > meeting with his inner circle of
                      > > H.I.s (in a business meeting) on
                      > > the day of his death. The notes
                      > > and comments of that meeting
                      > > are given here. And, PT was making
                      > > plans for his future with Eckankar
                      > > in this meeting. Paul gave no indication
                      > > (just the opposite) of his impending
                      > > death on that very same night.
                      > >
                      > > This is just one more reason as
                      > > to why this historical ECK book
                      > > was not republished by Eckankar
                      > > (Klemp). It's not like "Difficulties"
                      > > can't be republished/reprinted
                      > > since Eckankar has its own printing
                      > > equipment, does the publishing,
                      > > and owns PT's copyrights. Thus,
                      > > this is just one more cover-up
                      > > showing that Eckankar is simply
                      > > another false teaching/religion
                      > > that can't keep it's promises in/for
                      > > this Here and Now.
                      > >
                      > > Prometheus
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Jonathan wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Prometheus,
                      > >
                      > > Thank you for the comments. I found them to be very helpful and
                      > very healing.
                      > >
                      > > Jonathan
                      > >
                      >
                    • prometheus_973
                      Hello Postekcon and All, Thanks for the post. Yes, it seems that indulgences have taken on the name of service with Eckankar. However, indulgences were
                      Message 10 of 22 , Sep 19, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hello Postekcon and All,
                        Thanks for the post. Yes, it seems that
                        "indulgences" have taken on the name
                        of "service" with Eckankar. However,
                        indulgences were strictly sold for money.
                        Klemp, however, needs a free/volunteer
                        sales team to sell his wares (and Eckankar's),
                        while he gets 50% royalties for anything
                        with his name on it.

                        But, what do these ECKists get on the
                        lower planes for/from their lower plane
                        service? Well, if you're a 7th Initiate and
                        an ESA and don't want the headache
                        of being a RESA then you don't get
                        anything because you've hit the glass
                        ceiling.

                        Maybe one can be a Director within
                        the Satsang but that's a pain with
                        people calling you all the time and
                        then having to write reports and plan
                        events etc. Plus you have to call people
                        and remind them to write and turn
                        in their reports to you! Except for
                        being in the limelight and having
                        some power it's really not worth it.
                        But, for some the small amount of
                        power and notoriety would be worth
                        it the hassle I guess but it won't get
                        you anywhere except to be considered
                        for the RESA's spot when/if it opens
                        up. The RESA position is a status
                        position, but for those 7ths who
                        have been there and done that
                        there's nothing else except the
                        hope of getting an 8th. But Klemp
                        is a tight ass and doesn't want to
                        share the wealth so kiss that 8th
                        good-bye. But who knows...
                        Of course that's another Catch-22.
                        If an ECKists desires or covenants
                        that 8th (or whatever) too much
                        then this is why it won't come.
                        But if you "surrender" and give-
                        up your desires then it becomes
                        more possible, but still improbable.
                        That's the "carrot" that is dangled
                        in front of their noses and keeps
                        them distracted in yet another
                        manmade religion.

                        Anyway, if you're not yet an ESA or
                        a 7th Initiate then you are more motivated
                        to play the game. Status and power are
                        the motivators (along with the promises
                        of all the "higher heavenly" benefits one
                        can imagine). Some people need religion.
                        The irony is that ECKists see themselves
                        "above" all other religions while not
                        seeing that they have fallen into the
                        same religious trap.

                        Prometheus

                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "postekcon" <postekcon@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Thank you all for responses...
                        >
                        > My reference to the medieval church and the 'indulgences' issue, i.e. money to church in exchange for remission of sin in the hereafter, was a special point for HK himself, which he will fully understand from his Lutheran upbringing...
                        >
                        > The indulgences issue was the great trigger point for the Protestant Reformation. The big irony here is LOL; we now see HK and his concocted church repeating history... 'Service' (time/money) to ekult in exchange for the remission of sin/karma!
                        >
                        > The lem, due to his high initiation level, claims he is god's rep in all universes. So how come, it is only those who 'service' ekult who are on his fast-track to spiritual enlightenment?
                        >
                        > A question, I know, many ekult devotees ask of themselves! Ekult is a religion where service to all life is recommended as a way of life! So why is it this 'service' must be in visible form for ekult, for it to actually count as 'service'?
                        > -Postekcon
                        > p.s. in original post, mlm = multi-level-marketing.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Jonathan &
                        >
                        > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                        > >
                        > > I could identify with a number of points in
                        > > that appraisal. I liked this part especially:
                        > >
                        > > "BTW- In the business world, when a product
                        > > matches the market forces (consciousness)
                        > > of the day, it is successful; it is never the
                        > > other way round!"
                        > >
                        > > And about the youth, and consciousness,
                        > > the youth of today have easy access to a
                        > > lot more information and sources of inform-
                        > > ation for research purposes, where most of
                        > > the older generations had the library and a
                        > > card catalog.
                        > >
                        > > I'd often thought about Paul Twitchell in the
                        > > library, compiling and researching. And now
                        > > I ask myself: WHY DID IT EVER STOP?
                        > >
                        > > Today, with the resources available, people
                        > > can not only look at materials that Paul T.
                        > > compiled & researched from, but they can
                        > > take it further by continuing to compile and
                        > > research (not forgetting to cite references &
                        > > credit sources, of course). However, how
                        > > much does it happen in organized religion?
                        > > Because, doesn't it challenge the traditional
                        > > existing dogma whenever a person decides
                        > > to improve on it? Or, go beyond it? (Not to
                        > > mention, expose it, give some history of it
                        > > and show where it REALLY came from.)
                        > >
                        > > What are Eckankar's chances of seeing a
                        > > "REFORMATION"? Personally, I think it's
                        > > inevitable. The organization will change, or
                        > > will become another fossil religion. Both of
                        > > these forces are working antagonistic to
                        > > one another in the lives of many people to-
                        > > day, IMO. There is the traditional religious
                        > > dogma and there is the need to change it.
                        > > Some want change, and others are afraid
                        > > of what that will mean to the old cherished
                        > > dogma.
                        > >
                        > > Etznab
                        > >
                        > > -----Original Message-----
                        > > From: postekcon <postekcon@>
                        > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                        > > Sent: Fri, Sep 17, 2010 2:40 am
                        > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: All ECKists Should Respond To
                        > > This In Order To Vent
                        > >
                        > >  
                        > > EKULT, AN APPRAISAL
                        > >
                        > > I remember the ekult I joined 1970's. It seemed alive, vibrant, a
                        > > movement which seemed to know what it was about and where it was going!
                        > > Under the charismatic and artistic leadership of Darwin Gross
                        > > membership numbers grew and grew. Because the movement was 'CURRENT'
                        > > for the consciousness of those times, new members came with minimal
                        > > recruitment effort!
                        > >
                        > > We were excited. Ekult promised us it had the 'tools' to experience
                        > > greater individualism, freedom and spiritual 'unfoldment', and we
                        > > believed the hype! We had grown up in the 'Flower Power' era and
                        > > listening to The Beatles music! We were interested in TM
                        > > (transcendental meditation), we were interested in all things 'eastern'
                        > > and wanted to know more. Paul Twitchell too, was in-tune with this
                        > > consciousness, he was 'CURRENT' for the times. The mail order education
                        > > system he founded, matched those needs. Ignoring all plagiaristic
                        > > issues here, the books and discourses he compiled from the works of
                        > > other authors satisfied us for several years.
                        > >
                        > > However consciousness, being fluid, changes, moves on and around and
                        > > ekult got left behind! Ekult shot itself in the foot, the day it gave
                        > > leadership to Harold Klemp. Unlike Paul Twitchell he has never been
                        > > able to tune-in to the consciousness (keep 'current'), produce or even
                        > > 'compile' works which are dynamic and relevant for the times.
                        > >
                        > > BTW- In the business world, when a product matches the market forces
                        > > (consciousness) of the day, it is successful; it is never the other way
                        > > round!
                        > >
                        > > You might like to observe the consciousness of youth and those who are
                        > > under 30 years of age. They tend to live life to the extreme to the
                        > > edge of experience e.g. extreme sports etc. They show NO fear of the
                        > > creation of either sin or karma, or of the consequences of either,
                        > > whether now or in a hereafter. This is why a karma-based, savior-style
                        > > religion like the one HK develops makes no sense to their
                        > > consciousness. Even their devoted ekult parents have been unable to
                        > > indoctrinate them in ekult ways once they've left the childhood years.
                        > > (HK himself included as such a parent, I believe!).
                        > >
                        > > Ekult is an organization born out of human arrogance! Consider this!
                        > > What level of human arrogance is shown, where an earthly organization
                        > > claims it has commandeered the very spirit of god (energy of the
                        > > universe); claims it can trademark it in earthly law and then proceed
                        > > to market it for profit!! This reminds me of a certain medieval
                        > > church? It too claimed it had commandeered the way of 'salvation' for
                        > > the gullible populace. That medieval church, with its
                        > > resa-structure-style network of upwards reporting, soon descended the
                        > > slippery slope to the 'Inquisition'. History has a habit of repeating
                        > > itself…
                        > >
                        > > Perhaps if ekult had stayed with its original brief and admitted openly
                        > > to the world, it had been founded as a 'reference' point for the best
                        > > available philosophies and theories for living life, like a Wikipedia,
                        > > then it might have remained 'CURRENT'. If only it had cleaned up its
                        > > act, it could have evolved as an altruistic service and been of benefit
                        > > to mankind today. Instead, seeing the opportunity for financial gain,
                        > > HK and owner/s colluded to formulate yet another dead religion to add
                        > > the world's list. The modus operandi reminds me again of that medieval
                        > > church which once sold indulgences i.e. money to church in exchange for
                        > > remission of sins in the hereafter! Similarly ekult devotees can gain
                        > > prominence (get noticed) by spending lots of own time and money in
                        > > ekult 'service', and are often rewarded with faster progress through
                        > > the 'initiation' process. To put this very simply, in ekult, receipt of
                        > > the next initiation signifies the remission of some sin (karma)!
                        > >
                        > > 'Service' to ekult is always emphasized and hyped as being direct
                        > > service to the spirit of god! But Catch22 here as ekult also says the
                        > > true godhead is a Being so detached, it has no interest whether mortals
                        > > service it or not! What a clever ruse to induce 'service' for ekult
                        > > coffers and hide its mlm business model. For those of you who may be
                        > > unfamiliar with how ekult sources funding. In addition to church-plate
                        > > style donations etc., ekult followers (like mlm affiliates) are
                        > > expected to service promotional events and fund from their personal
                        > > wallet promotional materials and products. More importantly, there is
                        > > also a legal understanding that donations, collected at local level,
                        > > belong to ekult HQ, and amounts are uploaded accordingly!
                        > >
                        > > In conclusion, what of any future for ekult â€" there is none â€" it's
                        > > already too late? To my observations what remains are isolated pockets
                        > > of ekult devotees mostly seniors, mostly single females! Grayed-out,
                        > > like inactive pc commands, I note the dynamism and energy, I once
                        > > admired, is long long dead, while larger and ever larger pics of their
                        > > cultic leader casts its shadow over them…
                        > > -Postekcon
                        > >
                        > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                        > > prometheus_973@ wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Hello Jonathan,
                        > > > Thanks. I don't know what I said,
                        > > > but thanks anyway. Sometimes
                        > > > I think I should write and thank
                        > > > Klemp for being such a boring
                        > > > wannabe who lacks charisma.
                        > > >
                        > > > BTW-Imagine how many more
                        > > > ECKists there would be, now, if
                        > > > Klemp had even close to the same
                        > > > amount of charisma as Twitchell
                        > > > or Gross had.
                        > > >
                        > > > Plus, it seems that Klemp has
                        > > > been in semi-retirement for
                        > > > a number of years now. This
                        > > > semi-seclusion/retirement
                        > > > became more apparent when
                        > > > he stopped traveling to major
                        > > > ECK Seminars. I'm thinking that
                        > > > he made more "cheesy" health
                        > > > excuses to in order to justify
                        > > > his changes in behaviour and
                        > > > not wanting to travel.
                        > > >
                        > > > Remember the time HK talked
                        > > > about eating too much cheese
                        > > > and this had a negative health
                        > > > effect upon him? He probably
                        > > > got constipated! It was stupid
                        > > > on his part, but isn't that called
                        > > > gluttony too and is one of the
                        > > > Five Passions of the Mind. One
                        > > > would think that a Mahanta
                        > > > (although not perfect) would
                        > > > be higher in consciousness.
                        > > >
                        > > > However, Klemp turns even his
                        > > > own lack of consciousness and
                        > > > common sense around and uses
                        > > > his ill health as an excuse. His
                        > > > illnesses have now become the
                        > > > result of taking on more Karma
                        > > > for his chelas and acting as a karmic
                        > > > "holding tank" so that his Chelas
                        > > > and H.I.s can advance in consciousness
                        > > > and, thereby, in their initiations.
                        > > >
                        > > > How's that worked out for ECKists?
                        > > > In Eckankar today there are even
                        > > > more restrictions/requirements
                        > > > for H.I.s to qualify for the next
                        > > > higher initiation and title (i.e. cleric,
                        > > > initiator, ESA, RESA). And, thanks
                        > > > to Klemp, there are no longer
                        > > > Major ECK Seminars in California
                        > > > and Florida in the colder months
                        > > > of Oct. and March-April.
                        > > >
                        > > > BTW- Don't "Holding Tanks" get
                        > > > emptied so that more can be taken
                        > > > in? It's an on-going process/cycle
                        > > > kind of like using that old "Snow
                        > > > Ball Technique" over and over again.
                        > > >
                        > > > Well, this is all a moot point isn't
                        > > > it. Klemp has no powers... he's a
                        > > > fraud. I can see why he seems meek,
                        > > > at times, since he is aware that it's
                        > > > all a game he's playing and that
                        > > > any day now he'll be discovered
                        > > > for being a fraud. That's why he's
                        > > > not letting ECKists know where
                        > > > all the money is going since he's
                        > > > hide enough away to take care
                        > > > of himself just in case. But, what
                        > > > will that take for more ECKists to
                        > > > see through the facade? I don't know...
                        > > > maybe HK dropping over dead or
                        > > > having a stroke or maybe cancer?
                        > > >
                        > > > Don't get me wrong... I'd never
                        > > > wish that on anyone, but it happens
                        > > > everyday to all kinds of people and
                        > > > even to H.I.s. (of course). Yes, H.I.s
                        > > > are not special, and they get cancer
                        > > > too! Thus, Klemp is not exempt
                        > > > from this happening to him. Look
                        > > > at Twitchell... he didn't predict
                        > > > his heart attack and death! But,
                        > > > according to his own EK scripture
                        > > > (as the LEM/Mahanta) he should
                        > > > have known well in advance as
                        > > > to when he would be translating.
                        > > >
                        > > > However, in "Difficulties Of Being
                        > > > The Living ECK Master" Paul was
                        > > > meeting with his inner circle of
                        > > > H.I.s (in a business meeting) on
                        > > > the day of his death. The notes
                        > > > and comments of that meeting
                        > > > are given here. And, PT was making
                        > > > plans for his future with Eckankar
                        > > > in this meeting. Paul gave no indication
                        > > > (just the opposite) of his impending
                        > > > death on that very same night.
                        > > >
                        > > > This is just one more reason as
                        > > > to why this historical ECK book
                        > > > was not republished by Eckankar
                        > > > (Klemp). It's not like "Difficulties"
                        > > > can't be republished/reprinted
                        > > > since Eckankar has its own printing
                        > > > equipment, does the publishing,
                        > > > and owns PT's copyrights. Thus,
                        > > > this is just one more cover-up
                        > > > showing that Eckankar is simply
                        > > > another false teaching/religion
                        > > > that can't keep it's promises in/for
                        > > > this Here and Now.
                        > > >
                        > > > Prometheus
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Jonathan wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Prometheus,
                        > > >
                        > > > Thank you for the comments. I found them to be very helpful and
                        > > very healing.
                        > > >
                        > > > Jonathan
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • prometheus_973
                        Hello Postekcon and All, I ve really enjoyed the reading the insights from all of the responses. Yes, I was once a Catholic so I know something about the
                        Message 11 of 22 , Sep 19, 2010
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                          Hello Postekcon and All,
                          I've really enjoyed the reading the insights
                          from all of the responses. Yes, I was once
                          a Catholic so I know something about the
                          Church's sorted past involving indulgences.
                          It seems that Klemp has modeled his version
                          of ECKankar after the Lutheran version of
                          the Catholic Church. After all, it's what he
                          was taught in seminary school so why not
                          go with what's familiar.

                          If Klemp would have just pulled the names
                          of some recommended H.I.s from a hat,
                          BUT those who are Not participating within
                          "service" areas, it would have given the
                          impression (although false) that, perhaps,
                          "inner" qualifications were still valid litmus
                          tests for Initiation. However, I've never
                          seen a 7th Initiate who was not, at least,
                          a cleric, initiator, etc!

                          What ever happened to "The ECK
                          Contemplative Order" or whatever it was
                          called?" I think it's briefly mentioned in
                          "The Holy Fire of ECK" Book One (pg.60?).

                          Prometheus

                          postekcon wrote:
                          Thank you all for responses...

                          My reference to the medieval church and the 'indulgences' issue, i.e. money to
                          church in exchange for remission of sin in the hereafter, was a special point
                          for HK himself, which he will fully understand from his Lutheran upbringing...

                          The indulgences issue was the great trigger point for the Protestant
                          Reformation. The big irony here is LOL; we now see HK and his concocted church
                          repeating history... 'Service' (time/money) to ekult in exchange for the
                          remission of sin/karma!

                          The lem, due to his high initiation level, claims he is god's rep in all
                          universes. So how come, it is only those who 'service' ekult who are on his
                          fast-track to spiritual enlightenment?

                          A question, I know, many ekult devotees ask of themselves! Ekult is a religion
                          where service to all life is recommended as a way of life! So why is it this
                          'service' must be in visible form for ekult, for it to actually count as
                          'service'?
                          -Postekcon
                          p.s. in original post, mlm = multi-level-marketing.



                          Jonathan &

                          etznab@... wrote:
                          >
                          > I could identify with a number of points in
                          > that appraisal. I liked this part especially:
                          >
                          > "BTW- In the business world, when a product
                          > matches the market forces (consciousness)
                          > of the day, it is successful; it is never the
                          > other way round!"
                          >
                          > And about the youth, and consciousness,
                          > the youth of today have easy access to a
                          > lot more information and sources of inform-
                          > ation for research purposes, where most of
                          > the older generations had the library and a
                          > card catalog.
                          >
                          > I'd often thought about Paul Twitchell in the
                          > library, compiling and researching. And now
                          > I ask myself: WHY DID IT EVER STOP?
                          >
                          > Today, with the resources available, people
                          > can not only look at materials that Paul T.
                          > compiled & researched from, but they can
                          > take it further by continuing to compile and
                          > research (not forgetting to cite references &
                          > credit sources, of course). However, how
                          > much does it happen in organized religion?
                          > Because, doesn't it challenge the traditional
                          > existing dogma whenever a person decides
                          > to improve on it? Or, go beyond it? (Not to
                          > mention, expose it, give some history of it
                          > and show where it REALLY came from.)
                          >
                          > What are Eckankar's chances of seeing a
                          > "REFORMATION"? Personally, I think it's
                          > inevitable. The organization will change, or
                          > will become another fossil religion. Both of
                          > these forces are working antagonistic to
                          > one another in the lives of many people to-
                          > day, IMO. There is the traditional religious
                          > dogma and there is the need to change it.
                          > Some want change, and others are afraid
                          > of what that will mean to the old cherished
                          > dogma.
                          >
                          > Etznab
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: postekcon
                          > This In Order To Vent
                          >
                          >
                          > EKULT, AN APPRAISAL
                          >
                          > I remember the ekult I joined 1970's. It seemed alive, vibrant, a
                          > movement which seemed to know what it was about and where it was going!
                          > Under the charismatic and artistic leadership of Darwin Gross
                          > membership numbers grew and grew. Because the movement was 'CURRENT'
                          > for the consciousness of those times, new members came with minimal
                          > recruitment effort!
                          >
                          > We were excited. Ekult promised us it had the 'tools' to experience
                          > greater individualism, freedom and spiritual 'unfoldment', and we
                          > believed the hype! We had grown up in the 'Flower Power' era and
                          > listening to The Beatles music! We were interested in TM
                          > (transcendental meditation), we were interested in all things 'eastern'
                          > and wanted to know more. Paul Twitchell too, was in-tune with this
                          > consciousness, he was 'CURRENT' for the times. The mail order education
                          > system he founded, matched those needs. Ignoring all plagiaristic
                          > issues here, the books and discourses he compiled from the works of
                          > other authors satisfied us for several years.
                          >
                          > However consciousness, being fluid, changes, moves on and around and
                          > ekult got left behind! Ekult shot itself in the foot, the day it gave
                          > leadership to Harold Klemp. Unlike Paul Twitchell he has never been
                          > able to tune-in to the consciousness (keep 'current'), produce or even
                          > 'compile' works which are dynamic and relevant for the times.
                          >
                          > BTW- In the business world, when a product matches the market forces
                          > (consciousness) of the day, it is successful; it is never the other way
                          > round!
                          >
                          > You might like to observe the consciousness of youth and those who are
                          > under 30 years of age. They tend to live life to the extreme to the
                          > edge of experience e.g. extreme sports etc. They show NO fear of the
                          > creation of either sin or karma, or of the consequences of either,
                          > whether now or in a hereafter. This is why a karma-based, savior-style
                          > religion like the one HK develops makes no sense to their
                          > consciousness. Even their devoted ekult parents have been unable to
                          > indoctrinate them in ekult ways once they've left the childhood years.
                          > (HK himself included as such a parent, I believe!).
                          >
                          > Ekult is an organization born out of human arrogance! Consider this!
                          > What level of human arrogance is shown, where an earthly organization
                          > claims it has commandeered the very spirit of god (energy of the
                          > universe); claims it can trademark it in earthly law and then proceed
                          > to market it for profit!! This reminds me of a certain medieval
                          > church? It too claimed it had commandeered the way of 'salvation' for
                          > the gullible populace. That medieval church, with its
                          > resa-structure-style network of upwards reporting, soon descended the
                          > slippery slope to the 'Inquisition'. History has a habit of repeating
                          > itself.
                          >
                          > Perhaps if ekult had stayed with its original brief and admitted openly
                          > to the world, it had been founded as a 'reference' point for the best
                          > available philosophies and theories for living life, like a Wikipedia,
                          > then it might have remained 'CURRENT'. If only it had cleaned up its
                          > act, it could have evolved as an altruistic service and been of benefit
                          > to mankind today. Instead, seeing the opportunity for financial gain,
                          > HK and owner/s colluded to formulate yet another dead religion to add
                          > the world's list. The modus operandi reminds me again of that medieval
                          > church which once sold indulgences i.e. money to church in exchange for
                          > remission of sins in the hereafter! Similarly ekult devotees can gain
                          > prominence (get noticed) by spending lots of own time and money in
                          > ekult 'service', and are often rewarded with faster progress through
                          > the 'initiation' process. To put this very simply, in ekult, receipt of
                          > the next initiation signifies the remission of some sin (karma)!
                          >
                          > 'Service' to ekult is always emphasized and hyped as being direct
                          > service to the spirit of god! But Catch22 here as ekult also says the
                          > true godhead is a Being so detached, it has no interest whether mortals
                          > service it or not! What a clever ruse to induce 'service' for ekult
                          > coffers and hide its mlm business model. For those of you who may be
                          > unfamiliar with how ekult sources funding. In addition to church-plate
                          > style donations etc., ekult followers (like mlm affiliates) are
                          > expected to service promotional events and fund from their personal
                          > wallet promotional materials and products. More importantly, there is
                          > also a legal understanding that donations, collected at local level,
                          > belong to ekult HQ, and amounts are uploaded accordingly!
                          >
                          > In conclusion, what of any future for ekult there is none it's
                          > already too late? To my observations what remains are isolated pockets
                          > of ekult devotees mostly seniors, mostly single females! Grayed-out,
                          > like inactive pc commands, I note the dynamism and energy, I once
                          > admired, is long long dead, while larger and ever larger pics of their
                          > cultic leader casts its shadow over them.
                          > -Postekcon
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