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Re: Thee and ye. What is that?

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  • jonathanjohns96
    All, I know that some member of Eckankar is going to say Maybe Rebazar was reading the KIng James version of the Bible. My answer to that is that Eckankar
    Message 1 of 22 , Sep 13, 2010
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      All,

      I know that some member of Eckankar is going to say "Maybe Rebazar was reading the KIng James version of the Bible."

      My answer to that is that Eckankar teaches that all religions came from Ecknakar. That means that Christianity came from Eckankar. So why would Rebazar have been reading the Bible?"

      Oh, OK. Now I get it! How could I have been so stupid! Rebazar Tarz was the person who originated Old English!

      Jonathan


      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96" <jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:
      >
      > Promethues wrote:
      >
      > "But I was wondering, once again
      > as I did when I was an ECKist,
      > Why does Rebazar speak using
      > words like "thee' and "ye?" This
      > "Torch Bearer" and former Mahanta
      > who is over 500 years old and
      > who can travel anywhere physically
      > or otherwise and who PT claimed
      > trained him apparently stepped in
      > as the LEM (for Sudar/Kirpal) and
      > handed Twitchell the Rod of ECK
      > Power... still speaks using thee
      > and ye?"
      >
      > JJ - After I stopped laughing at your funny comment, I started thinking. "Isn't this ye and thee stuff actually Old English? And the reason that it sounds Holy in a traditional Christian sort of way is because some of the old versions of the Bible were written in Old English?
      >
      > And so I turned to that "bastion of truth." That "torchbearer of all things correct." Not Eckankar, but, Wikipedia:
      >
      > Wikipedia - Thou
      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou
      > "Most modern English speakers encounter "thou" only in the works of Shakespeare, in the works of other medieval and early modern writers, and in the King James Bible.
      >
      > So after realizing that in this case it looks like I was correct, I wondered about a few things:
      >
      > 1. Rebazar is 500 years old. How old is Old English?
      > 2. Regardless of the answer to #1, how and why did Rebazar learn to speak Old English?
      >
      > Wikipedia - Old English
      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_english
      > "Old English (Englisc, Anglisc, Ænglisc) or Anglo-Saxon[1] is an early form of the English language that was spoken and written by the Anglo-Saxons and their descendants in parts of what are now England and south-eastern Scotland between at least the mid-5th century and the mid-12th century."
      >
      > Wikipedia - 5th Century
      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_century
      > "The 5th century is the period from 401 to 500 in accordance with the Julian calendar in Anno Domini/Common Era."
      >
      > Wikipedia - 12th Century
      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_century
      > "As a means of recording the passage of time, the 12th century is the period from 1101 to 1200 in accordance with the Julian calendar in the Christian/Common Era."
      >
      > Rebazar's birth year
      > 1965-500=1465
      >
      > If Rebazar was 35 years old in 1500, that means he was speaking Old English about 350 years after it had died out in England and Scotland.
      >
      > Ok, I admit it it. I have no idea what any of this proves...
      >
      > - - - - - - - - - - -
      >
      > UPDATE: Maybe I do know what it proves. Maybe Twitchell knew that most Americans, being of a Christian background, would associate Old English with the Bible. In other words, with Holy writings or spiritual truth.
      >
      > I knew that Twitchell stole some verses from the Bible, but I never thought about this before. The fact that Twitchell may have had Rebazar use the words thee and ye in order to create a spiritual-like persona for Rebazar.
      >
      > I'm wondering whether Ford Johnson mentioned this. He must have.
      >
      > Search results of "Confessions"
      >
      > "old english" - no occurrences
      > "king james" - one occurrence (p 117) but not related to a discussion of Twitchell's use of thee and ye.
      > "thee" - numerous, but Ford actually uses the word 'thee' in some of his HCS affirmations.
      >
      > But Ford is allowed to use thee since he was raised in the United States. Plus, I think that if Ford was questioned, he would acknowledge that he probably got the word "thee" from reading the King James version of the Bible. I don't think Twitchell would acknowledge that Rebazar got the word "thee" from reading the King James version of the Bible, or from somehow being exposed to Old English which was spoken from 450 to 1150.
      >
      > Questions for further study.
      > 1. Did all the Eck masters use thee and ye? Or just Rebazar?
      > 2. Did these Eck masters speak that way just because they knew Twitchell would feel comfortable with it?
      > 3. Did any of Paul's actual gurus such as Kirpal Singh or Premananda use thee and ye in their speech?
      >
    • Drew van Rijk
      Since Rebazar does not exist now, nor did in the past, verily I say unto you he was not reading the bible or creating old english...  LOL ... From:
      Message 2 of 22 , Sep 14, 2010
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        Since Rebazar does not exist now, nor did in the past, verily I say unto you he was not reading the bible or creating old english...  LOL

        --- On Tue, 9/14/10, jonathanjohns96 <jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:

        From: jonathanjohns96 <jonathanjohns96@...>
        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Thee and ye. What is that?
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        Received: Tuesday, September 14, 2010, 1:39 AM

         

        All,

        I know that some member of Eckankar is going to say "Maybe Rebazar was reading the KIng James version of the Bible."

        My answer to that is that Eckankar teaches that all religions came from Ecknakar. That means that Christianity came from Eckankar. So why would Rebazar have been reading the Bible?"

        Oh, OK. Now I get it! How could I have been so stupid! Rebazar Tarz was the person who originated Old English!

        Jonathan

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96" <jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:
        >
        > Promethues wrote:
        >
        > "But I was wondering, once again
        > as I did when I was an ECKist,
        > Why does Rebazar speak using
        > words like "thee' and "ye?" This
        > "Torch Bearer" and former Mahanta
        > who is over 500 years old and
        > who can travel anywhere physically
        > or otherwise and who PT claimed
        > trained him apparently stepped in
        > as the LEM (for Sudar/Kirpal) and
        > handed Twitchell the Rod of ECK
        > Power... still speaks using thee
        > and ye?"
        >
        > JJ - After I stopped laughing at your funny comment, I started thinking. "Isn't this ye and thee stuff actually Old English? And the reason that it sounds Holy in a traditional Christian sort of way is because some of the old versions of the Bible were written in Old English?
        >
        > And so I turned to that "bastion of truth." That "torchbearer of all things correct." Not Eckankar, but, Wikipedia:
        >
        > Wikipedia - Thou
        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou
        > "Most modern English speakers encounter "thou" only in the works of Shakespeare, in the works of other medieval and early modern writers, and in the King James Bible.
        >
        > So after realizing that in this case it looks like I was correct, I wondered about a few things:
        >
        > 1. Rebazar is 500 years old. How old is Old English?
        > 2. Regardless of the answer to #1, how and why did Rebazar learn to speak Old English?
        >
        > Wikipedia - Old English
        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_english
        > "Old English (Englisc, Anglisc, Ænglisc) or Anglo-Saxon[1] is an early form of the English language that was spoken and written by the Anglo-Saxons and their descendants in parts of what are now England and south-eastern Scotland between at least the mid-5th century and the mid-12th century."
        >
        > Wikipedia - 5th Century
        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_century
        > "The 5th century is the period from 401 to 500 in accordance with the Julian calendar in Anno Domini/Common Era."
        >
        > Wikipedia - 12th Century
        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_century
        > "As a means of recording the passage of time, the 12th century is the period from 1101 to 1200 in accordance with the Julian calendar in the Christian/Common Era."
        >
        > Rebazar's birth year
        > 1965-500=1465
        >
        > If Rebazar was 35 years old in 1500, that means he was speaking Old English about 350 years after it had died out in England and Scotland.
        >
        > Ok, I admit it it. I have no idea what any of this proves...
        >
        > - - - - - - - - - - -
        >
        > UPDATE: Maybe I do know what it proves. Maybe Twitchell knew that most Americans, being of a Christian background, would associate Old English with the Bible. In other words, with Holy writings or spiritual truth.
        >
        > I knew that Twitchell stole some verses from the Bible, but I never thought about this before. The fact that Twitchell may have had Rebazar use the words thee and ye in order to create a spiritual-like persona for Rebazar.
        >
        > I'm wondering whether Ford Johnson mentioned this. He must have.
        >
        > Search results of "Confessions"
        >
        > "old english" - no occurrences
        > "king james" - one occurrence (p 117) but not related to a discussion of Twitchell's use of thee and ye.
        > "thee" - numerous, but Ford actually uses the word 'thee' in some of his HCS affirmations.
        >
        > But Ford is allowed to use thee since he was raised in the United States. Plus, I think that if Ford was questioned, he would acknowledge that he probably got the word "thee" from reading the King James version of the Bible. I don't think Twitchell would acknowledge that Rebazar got the word "thee" from reading the King James version of the Bible, or from somehow being exposed to Old English which was spoken from 450 to 1150.
        >
        > Questions for further study.
        > 1. Did all the Eck masters use thee and ye? Or just Rebazar?
        > 2. Did these Eck masters speak that way just because they knew Twitchell would feel comfortable with it?
        > 3. Did any of Paul's actual gurus such as Kirpal Singh or Premananda use thee and ye in their speech?
        >


      • prometheus_973
        Hello Jonathan and All, Thanks for the responses. I d like to make some additional comments below. [P] jonathanjohns wrote: Promethus and all, #2 A few more
        Message 3 of 22 , Sep 14, 2010
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          Hello Jonathan and All,
          Thanks for the responses. I'd like to
          make some additional comments
          below. [P]

          jonathanjohns wrote:

          Promethus and all,

          #2
          A few more comments about Eckankar's curses.

          I'd like to mention something for the benefit of those of you who haven't been
          able to followed all the past discussionss on this message board. I was over at
          a.r.e. (the Google Group alt.religion.eckankar) talking about something and one
          of the Eckists over there said that I was "regurgitating" (their words)
          Prometheus' old theory about..... I don't even remember exactly what the subject
          for discussion was, but it doesn't matter. I very adamantly pointed out to them,
          that, yes, I agree with a lot of what Prometheus says, but I had figured it all
          out long before I read about Prometheus discussing it on this message board. So
          I am not copying Prometheus and Prometheus has never copied me. We both are very
          independently-minded people and it just so happens that we came to many of the
          same conclusions about what was/is going on in Eckankar. I did not even read ET
          or ESA until Dec 17 (the day I quit Eckankar) or Dec 18 in 2008. It was around
          that time; please forgive my bad memory.



          ***
          [P] In past articles I've used the term
          "regurgitate" when describing what
          Klemp does when he gives his talks
          and writes his books. I'm thinking
          the A.R.E. ECKies are "regurgitating"
          the words I've used about their "precious"
          Mahanta.

          Plus, most people will have the same
          thoughts, reach the same conclusions
          and use some of the same words and
          expressions to communicate their ideas.
          However, if you ever listen to an ECKist
          they will sound like an EK Brochure.
          Only the ECKists that are Unauthorized
          to speak for Eckankar and go against
          Klemp's Guidelines and who second
          guess their Mahanta via Internet sites
          will speak outside of the required EK
          speak.
          ***



          And when I started reading Ford Johnson's book (1-3 months before I left
          Eckankar?) I had the exact same experience. As I was reading his book I clearly
          remember when Ford was talking about Eckankar's curses. and I said to myself
          "Yes! Ford saw it too!" It made me feel better for two reasons. First of all,
          Ford is a very intelligent person. Secondly he was a 7th initiate and 29 year
          member of Eckankar so he obviously knew the teachings of Eckankar as well as
          anyone. And so I said to myself "If Ford saw it too, I'm obviously not
          hallucinating or imagining things." My recollection is that Ford said that he
          was late in seeing them. I believe he said he never noticed them in his first 20
          years in Eckankar. I really think the reason I noticed them so early in Eckankar
          is because they struck fear in me at the time I read them.

          So the curses in Eckankar seem to affect some people, but not others.
          Prometheus, I believe that you have said in the past that they didn't affect
          you, or that you even doubted their effectiveness. I think the truth is that
          they affect some people, but not others.


          ***
          [P] Yes, Ford would have 36 years (or so)
          in Eckankar, today, if he had stayed. As
          for the curses... ECKists think that those
          don't apply to them because they're not
          going to be leaving... this was the one true
          "path" that they had been looking for all
          along. Thus, the curses didn't bother them.
          We didn't think about the curses being used
          as a threat or as a scare tactic or as a lower
          plane power tripping tool. It didn't apply
          to us so why worry about it... right? Yet,
          it was exactly like the same crap (threats)
          that had hung over our heads from our
          previous religions which we rejected for
          similar manipulations.
          ***



          #3
          Prometheus said about the Eckankar Worship Service:

          "The EWS is normally scheduled on Sundays to
          compete with the Christian Worship Services
          and for Klemp to fit-in with his fellow religious
          leaders in the Minneapolis community by having
          Sunday Worship Services. This seems or gives
          the appearance of being less cult like too."

          JJ - I'm not sure Klemp is trying to compete with the Christian Worship
          Services, that's awfully optimistic of Eckankar, but I agree fully with the rest
          of your statement.



          ***
          [P] Many people go "church" hunting
          on Sundays. I've done it prior to finding
          Eckankar. And, that's how Glenn Beck
          and his family found LDS.
          ***



          EWS - - > Eckankar looks more like Christianity
          EWS - - > Eckankar looks less cult-like

          But you jogged my memory of something that I had somehow completely forgotten
          about. Awhile ago (pre 1999?) I was looking at a Sunday newspaper at the ads for
          churches and their Sunday church services. In the newspaper, each church of many
          different Christian denominations had their own little ad. You may not believe
          what I just remembered. There was an ad for "Eckankar Church." And it was mixed
          right in with all of the Christian worship services! I was gobsmacked. I said to
          myself "How the heck did that get in there!?" In other words, I thought surely
          that the editor of the newspaper had made a mistake.




          ***
          [P] Our local area, too, (within the state
          Satsang area) would place ads in the paper
          to publicize our Sunday ECK Worship Service
          and the ad would be listed with the other
          churches... that was the whole point. My
          wife and I were the ones who first did this
          type of specific ad. I probably shared this
          info (our success with getting it in) with
          the RESA so that other areas could do so
          as well. This was probably around 1990-
          91. It was really funny how I'd have successes
          with getting Eckankar into areas where
          others had difficulty. I had moved to a
          new state and the local EK area I was in
          wasn't permitted in Libraries (so they said).
          By the time I was done we were doing
          Intros and having Roundtables in three
          local libraries. The Local Director amazed.
          ***


          But as I look back on it now, I realize what really happened. Some Eckist had
          snuck that in there while attempting to pass Eckankar off as "being like
          Christianity." And this was in a very conservative part of the United States. I
          bet the editor(s) at the newspaper just about went through the roof when they
          found out the truth about the "Eckankar Church." That it wasn't a Christian
          Church.

          Oh well. It just proves how far members of Eckankar will go to try to hoodwink
          the public. I'm very glad I remembered this. I remember it very clearly though.
          When I saw the words "Eckankar Church" I was just about screaming at the
          newspaper "How can you call Eckankar a church?" It was if I was insulted. After
          all, how could someone compare a mere church to Eckankar? (my programming as an
          Eckist).




          ***
          [P] True. We'd pass ourselves off as an
          alternative religion that recognized the
          validity of all other religions. Of course
          that wasn't really true but it sounded
          good at the time and in the moment.
          The real truth of the matter is that all
          other religions are seen by Eckankar
          as KAL (Satan, Devil) based and as 2nd
          or 4th Plane. It always made me wonder
          why PT and Klemp skipped the 3rd (Causal)
          Plane.
          ***




          I was so naive back then. This was before I had started to notice the
          Christianization of Eckankar. The Chistianization was there, but I just wasn't
          seeing it for what it was.

          #6
          Prometheus wrote:

          "H.I.s, supposedly, are more advanced (via
          initiation) than the 4th Plane God that ALL
          non-ECKists on the planet worships!"

          Right again, Prometheus. And you mentioned something very important that I
          didn't think of in my previous comments on this topic. And it is VERY applicable
          to me. That is, I had extremely high expectations of these people. After all,
          wasn't I being taught that Eckankar is the highest religion of them all? And
          that all other religions in the World have sprung out of Eckankar? My gosh! Then
          these people in Eckankar who were the "higher initiates" should be super
          amazing, super great, and super awesome! So yes, my expectations were very very
          high.

          And then when these people didn't just fall below my expectations, but fell WAY
          below, it was hard on me. And I seriously started to wonder "Are these people
          really as high as they are supposed to be? As high I as I think they are?" So it
          did affect me. I think that, consistent with my personality of being
          disappointed with others, I just withdrew from the whole thing and lived in my
          own world of Twitchell's books. I'll admit that I did enjoy Klemp's tapes too (I
          guess I shouldn't admit that here). But most of his books were boring, and were
          in many cases just "reprints" of the exact same stories in his tapes.




          ***
          [P] I too had H.I.s upon pedestals. One
          was an early mentor. Later, after I left,
          I shared Ford's "Confessions" with this
          person and they too left EK. I still had
          them upon a pedestal, but later that too
          ended. At one time I had Ford upon a
          pedestal for awhile. Really, these people
          are as flawed as the rest of us. Klemp
          is no different and, as I discovered, HK's
          one of the most flawed and screwed up
          people that I've ever met... he just doesn't
          reveal it as much if you're not looking
          or are brainwashed. Besides, he's always
          "on stage" and acting out a role. At the
          Eden Prairie Mall etc. he's under scrutiny
          by lurking ECKists but he knows this and
          is, thus, on his best behaviour with the
          public and with Joan.
          ***



          So, Prometheus, I actually admire you for being actively involved in Eckankar
          because I couldn't handle it. So your experiences led to a very different
          experience with Eckankar. I always have been a loner, and after having only a
          few bad interactions with members of Eckankar, I withdrew into my own world
          which also means that I pretty much stopped going to Eckankar meetings. This all
          happened very early in my interaction with Eckankar: probably mid 1980s (I
          joined in 1979).




          ***
          [P] BTW- Don't admire me for this:
          I'd always try to bring the "loners"
          into the fold (when they dropped in)
          by welcoming them at the EWS and
          chat with them after the service. I
          would instruct others to do so, as well,
          instead of chatting with their EK friends.
          I'd invite them to go to lunch with us,
          too, and try to talk them and others
          into doing some volunteer work of
          their choosing and let them know where
          we needed help. And, I'd give them
          a volunteer position "title" and place
          them under another co-ordinator.
          Our small center had about 30 EKists
          with volunteer positions.
          ***


          Toward the end of my time in Eckankar, I started attending a lot more EWSs. I
          think I was in a situation where I wanted to give Eckankar a chance to prove
          itself to me. I was getting very cynical about the whole thing by now. But the
          more I went to ESWs, and the more I interacted with Eckists, the more I got a
          really bad impression of them. I mean, they all had their good qualities too.
          But what bothered me was the blind dedication that these people had toward
          Eckankar, and how they would defend Eckankar no matter what. It was very
          disturbing to me.

          And so I finally did decide that there just too many negatives.



          ***
          [P] I'd always sympathize and/or
          empathize with ECKists having
          problems with the dogma, or with
          H.I.s, and try to get them back "on
          track." Sometimes I wasn't able to
          and just said to them, "Let go and
          let God and do what feels right for
          you." That suggestion would catch
          them off-guard. They couldn't believe
          that I wasn't saying more B.S. to
          promote Eckankar or to alleviate
          their concerns. But, If it doesn't
          feel right then there's a reason
          for that... sometimes it's called
          intuition... which is Soul speaking
          to self. It just takes some of us
          longer to listen or understand
          what Soul (we) are saying to self
          (mind).
          ***
        • prometheus_973
          Hello Jonathan and All, You ve made some good points. It does seem odd that a 500 year old Tibetan Lama (Rebazar) would speak Old English. It s probably
          Message 4 of 22 , Sep 14, 2010
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            Hello Jonathan and All,
            You've made some good points.
            It does seem odd that a 500
            year old Tibetan Lama (Rebazar)
            would speak Old English. It's
            probably because Twitchell
            used the King James version
            of the Bible for references.
            I always thought it was odd
            that Klemp, too, uses the
            more inaccurate King James
            version when giving Bible quotes.

            Prometheus

            jonathanjohns wrote:
            romethues wrote:

            "But I was wondering, once again
            as I did when I was an ECKist,
            Why does Rebazar speak using
            words like "thee' and "ye?" This
            "Torch Bearer" and former Mahanta
            who is over 500 years old and
            who can travel anywhere physically
            or otherwise and who PT claimed
            trained him apparently stepped in
            as the LEM (for Sudar/Kirpal) and
            handed Twitchell the Rod of ECK
            Power... still speaks using thee
            and ye?"

            JJ - After I stopped laughing at your funny comment, I started thinking. "Isn't
            this ye and thee stuff actually Old English? And the reason that it sounds Holy
            in a traditional Christian sort of way is because some of the old versions of
            the Bible were written in Old English?

            And so I turned to that "bastion of truth." That "torchbearer of all things
            correct." Not Eckankar, but, Wikipedia:

            Wikipedia - Thou
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou
            "Most modern English speakers encounter "thou" only in the works of Shakespeare,
            in the works of other medieval and early modern writers, and in the King James
            Bible.

            So after realizing that in this case it looks like I was correct, I wondered
            about a few things:

            1. Rebazar is 500 years old. How old is Old English?
            2. Regardless of the answer to #1, how and why did Rebazar learn to speak Old
            English?

            Wikipedia - Old English
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_english
            "Old English (Englisc, Anglisc, Ænglisc) or Anglo-Saxon[1] is an early form of
            the English language that was spoken and written by the Anglo-Saxons and their
            descendants in parts of what are now England and south-eastern Scotland between
            at least the mid-5th century and the mid-12th century."

            Wikipedia - 5th Century
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_century
            "The 5th century is the period from 401 to 500 in accordance with the Julian
            calendar in Anno Domini/Common Era."

            Wikipedia - 12th Century
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_century
            "As a means of recording the passage of time, the 12th century is the period
            from 1101 to 1200 in accordance with the Julian calendar in the Christian/Common
            Era."

            Rebazar's birth year
            1965-500=1465

            If Rebazar was 35 years old in 1500, that means he was speaking Old English
            about 350 years after it had died out in England and Scotland.

            Ok, I admit it it. I have no idea what any of this proves...

            - - - - - - - - - - -

            UPDATE: Maybe I do know what it proves. Maybe Twitchell knew that most
            Americans, being of a Christian background, would associate Old English with the
            Bible. In other words, with Holy writings or spiritual truth.

            I knew that Twitchell stole some verses from the Bible, but I never thought
            about this before. The fact that Twitchell may have had Rebazar use the words
            thee and ye in order to create a spiritual-like persona for Rebazar.

            I'm wondering whether Ford Johnson mentioned this. He must have.

            Search results of "Confessions"

            "old english" - no occurrences
            "king james" - one occurrence (p 117) but not related to a discussion of
            Twitchell's use of thee and ye.
            "thee" - numerous, but Ford actually uses the word 'thee' in some of his HCS
            affirmations.

            But Ford is allowed to use thee since he was raised in the United States. Plus,
            I think that if Ford was questioned, he would acknowledge that he probably got
            the word "thee" from reading the King James version of the Bible. I don't think
            Twitchell would acknowledge that Rebazar got the word "thee" from reading the
            King James version of the Bible, or from somehow being exposed to Old English
            which was spoken from 450 to 1150.

            Questions for further study.
            1. Did all the Eck masters use thee and ye? Or just Rebazar?
            2. Did these Eck masters speak that way just because they knew Twitchell would
            feel comfortable with it?
            3. Did any of Paul's actual gurus such as Kirpal Singh or Premananda use thee
            and ye in their speech?
          • prometheus_973
            Hello Drew and All, Thanks for the perspective. Of course Rebazar is fictitious, but Twitch needed someone living (a LEM fill-in, supposedly) to initiate him
            Message 5 of 22 , Sep 14, 2010
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              Hello Drew and All,
              Thanks for the perspective.
              Of course Rebazar is fictitious,
              but Twitch needed someone
              "living" (a LEM fill-in, supposedly)
              to initiate him as LEM since
              he killed off Sudar/Kirpal.

              This EK Master lineage thing
              is somewhat of a Catch-22
              isn't it? On one hand these
              characters have been living,
              supposedly, 500-60,000 years
              in the same physical body.
              However, where are they?
              They live in PHYSICAL BODIES,
              or so Eckankar claims, and
              are nowhere to be found.
              The Physical is not an invisible
              Plane, but these "Masters"
              are invisible... and yet work
              under Klemp (the mahanta).
              So, why doesn't Klemp have
              them give talks at EK Seminars
              ... ever!

              On the other hand one has
              to be "special" in order to
              see and talk with these undead
              ECK Masters. But, then again,
              these ECKists claiming to have
              had visitations with RT, et al,
              in their dreams, etc., still need
              approval from Klemp in order
              to share these "stories."

              Otherwise, without approval,
              from Klemp these claims are
              unsubstantiated and invalid
              since these "EK Masters" might
              just be the KAL playing tricks
              on chelas and H.I.s. One is
              supposed to "HU" in order to
              verify that this is a True ECK
              Master... like Graham claimed.
              But we all know how that turned
              out.

              Then again, this validating
              procedure is also used to
              prevent more and more
              delusional claims and
              threats to Klemp. Plus,
              thereare a lot of psychologically
              impaired, dysfunctional,
              and psychotic ECKists out
              there in la la land. Thus,
              Klemp has to employ stop-
              gap measures, dogma,
              and rules to maintain order
              and to keep them happy
              and standing in line for
              their turn... or so they
              imagine.

              Prometheus

              Drew van Rijk wrote:
              >
              > Since Rebazar does not exist now, nor did in the past, verily I say unto you he was not reading the bible or creating old english...  LOL
              >
              jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:
              >
              > From: jonathanjohns96 <jonathanjohns96@...>
              > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Thee and ye. What is that?
              > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              > Received: Tuesday, September 14, 2010, 1:39 AM
              >
              >All,
              >
              > I know that some member of Eckankar is going to say "Maybe Rebazar was reading the KIng James version of the Bible."
              >
              >
              >
              > My answer to that is that Eckankar teaches that all religions came from Ecknakar. That means that Christianity came from Eckankar. So why would Rebazar have been reading the Bible?"
              >
              >
              >
              > Oh, OK. Now I get it! How could I have been so stupid! Rebazar Tarz was the person who originated Old English!
              >
              >
              >
              > Jonathan
              >
              >
              >
              jonathanjohns96@> wrote:
              >
              > >
              >
              > > Promethues wrote:
              >
              > >
              >
              > > "But I was wondering, once again
              >
              > > as I did when I was an ECKist,
              >
              > > Why does Rebazar speak using
              >
              > > words like "thee' and "ye?" This
              >
              > > "Torch Bearer" and former Mahanta
              >
              > > who is over 500 years old and
              >
              > > who can travel anywhere physically
              >
              > > or otherwise and who PT claimed
              >
              > > trained him apparently stepped in
              >
              > > as the LEM (for Sudar/Kirpal) and
              >
              > > handed Twitchell the Rod of ECK
              >
              > > Power... still speaks using thee
              >
              > > and ye?"
              >
              > >
              >
              > > JJ - After I stopped laughing at your funny comment, I started thinking. "Isn't this ye and thee stuff actually Old English? And the reason that it sounds Holy in a traditional Christian sort of way is because some of the old versions of the Bible were written in Old English?
              >
              > >
              >
              > > And so I turned to that "bastion of truth." That "torchbearer of all things correct." Not Eckankar, but, Wikipedia:
              >
              > >
              >
              > > Wikipedia - Thou
              >
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou
              >
              > > "Most modern English speakers encounter "thou" only in the works of Shakespeare, in the works of other medieval and early modern writers, and in the King James Bible.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > So after realizing that in this case it looks like I was correct, I wondered about a few things:
              >
              > >
              >
              > > 1. Rebazar is 500 years old. How old is Old English?
              >
              > > 2. Regardless of the answer to #1, how and why did Rebazar learn to speak Old English?
              >
              > >
              >
              > > Wikipedia - Old English
              >
              > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_english
              >
              > > "Old English (Englisc, Anglisc, Ænglisc) or Anglo-Saxon[1] is an early form of the English language that was spoken and written by the Anglo-Saxons and their descendants in parts of what are now England and south-eastern Scotland between at least the mid-5th century and the mid-12th century."
              >
              > >
              >
              > > Wikipedia - 5th Century
              >
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_century
              >
              > > "The 5th century is the period from 401 to 500 in accordance with the Julian calendar in Anno Domini/Common Era."
              >
              > >
              >
              > > Wikipedia - 12th Century
              >
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_century
              >
              > > "As a means of recording the passage of time, the 12th century is the period from 1101 to 1200 in accordance with the Julian calendar in the Christian/Common Era."
              >
              > >
              >
              > > Rebazar's birth year
              >
              > > 1965-500=1465
              >
              > >
              >
              > > If Rebazar was 35 years old in 1500, that means he was speaking Old English about 350 years after it had died out in England and Scotland.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > Ok, I admit it it. I have no idea what any of this proves...
              >
              > >
              >
              > > - - - - - - - - - - -
              >
              > >
              >
              > > UPDATE: Maybe I do know what it proves. Maybe Twitchell knew that most Americans, being of a Christian background, would associate Old English with the Bible. In other words, with Holy writings or spiritual truth.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > I knew that Twitchell stole some verses from the Bible, but I never thought about this before. The fact that Twitchell may have had Rebazar use the words thee and ye in order to create a spiritual-like persona for Rebazar.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > I'm wondering whether Ford Johnson mentioned this. He must have.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > Search results of "Confessions"
              >
              > >
              >
              > > "old english" - no occurrences
              >
              > > "king james" - one occurrence (p 117) but not related to a discussion of Twitchell's use of thee and ye.
              >
              > > "thee" - numerous, but Ford actually uses the word 'thee' in some of his HCS affirmations.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > But Ford is allowed to use thee since he was raised in the United States. Plus, I think that if Ford was questioned, he would acknowledge that he probably got the word "thee" from reading the King James version of the Bible. I don't think Twitchell would acknowledge that Rebazar got the word "thee" from reading the King James version of the Bible, or from somehow being exposed to Old English which was spoken from 450 to 1150.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > Questions for further study.
              >
              > > 1. Did all the Eck masters use thee and ye? Or just Rebazar?
              >
              > > 2. Did these Eck masters speak that way just because they knew Twitchell would feel comfortable with it?
              >
              > > 3. Did any of Paul's actual gurus such as Kirpal Singh or Premananda use thee and ye in their speech?
              >
              > >
              >
            • jonathanjohns96
              Prometheus, Thank you for the comments. I found them to be very helpful and very healing. Jonathan
              Message 6 of 22 , Sep 15, 2010
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                Prometheus,

                Thank you for the comments. I found them to be very helpful and very healing.

                Jonathan
              • prometheus_973
                Hello Jonathan, Thanks. I don t know what I said, but thanks anyway. Sometimes I think I should write and thank Klemp for being such a boring wannabe who lacks
                Message 7 of 22 , Sep 16, 2010
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                  Hello Jonathan,
                  Thanks. I don't know what I said,
                  but thanks anyway. Sometimes
                  I think I should write and thank
                  Klemp for being such a boring
                  wannabe who lacks charisma.

                  BTW-Imagine how many more
                  ECKists there would be, now, if
                  Klemp had even close to the same
                  amount of charisma as Twitchell
                  or Gross had.

                  Plus, it seems that Klemp has
                  been in semi-retirement for
                  a number of years now. This
                  semi-seclusion/retirement
                  became more apparent when
                  he stopped traveling to major
                  ECK Seminars. I'm thinking that
                  he made more "cheesy" health
                  excuses to in order to justify
                  his changes in behaviour and
                  not wanting to travel.

                  Remember the time HK talked
                  about eating too much cheese
                  and this had a negative health
                  effect upon him? He probably
                  got constipated! It was stupid
                  on his part, but isn't that called
                  gluttony too and is one of the
                  Five Passions of the Mind. One
                  would think that a Mahanta
                  (although not perfect) would
                  be higher in consciousness.

                  However, Klemp turns even his
                  own lack of consciousness and
                  common sense around and uses
                  his ill health as an excuse. His
                  illnesses have now become the
                  result of taking on more Karma
                  for his chelas and acting as a karmic
                  "holding tank" so that his Chelas
                  and H.I.s can advance in consciousness
                  and, thereby, in their initiations.

                  How's that worked out for ECKists?
                  In Eckankar today there are even
                  more restrictions/requirements
                  for H.I.s to qualify for the next
                  higher initiation and title (i.e. cleric,
                  initiator, ESA, RESA). And, thanks
                  to Klemp, there are no longer
                  Major ECK Seminars in California
                  and Florida in the colder months
                  of Oct. and March-April.

                  BTW- Don't "Holding Tanks" get
                  emptied so that more can be taken
                  in? It's an on-going process/cycle
                  kind of like using that old "Snow
                  Ball Technique" over and over again.

                  Well, this is all a moot point isn't
                  it. Klemp has no powers... he's a
                  fraud. I can see why he seems meek,
                  at times, since he is aware that it's
                  all a game he's playing and that
                  any day now he'll be discovered
                  for being a fraud. That's why he's
                  not letting ECKists know where
                  all the money is going since he's
                  hide enough away to take care
                  of himself just in case. But, what
                  will that take for more ECKists to
                  see through the facade? I don't know...
                  maybe HK dropping over dead or
                  having a stroke or maybe cancer?

                  Don't get me wrong... I'd never
                  wish that on anyone, but it happens
                  everyday to all kinds of people and
                  even to H.I.s. (of course). Yes, H.I.s
                  are not special, and they get cancer
                  too! Thus, Klemp is not exempt
                  from this happening to him. Look
                  at Twitchell... he didn't predict
                  his heart attack and death! But,
                  according to his own EK scripture
                  (as the LEM/Mahanta) he should
                  have known well in advance as
                  to when he would be translating.

                  However, in "Difficulties Of Being
                  The Living ECK Master" Paul was
                  meeting with his inner circle of
                  H.I.s (in a business meeting) on
                  the day of his death. The notes
                  and comments of that meeting
                  are given here. And, PT was making
                  plans for his future with Eckankar
                  in this meeting. Paul gave no indication
                  (just the opposite) of his impending
                  death on that very same night.

                  This is just one more reason as
                  to why this historical ECK book
                  was not republished by Eckankar
                  (Klemp). It's not like "Difficulties"
                  can't be republished/reprinted
                  since Eckankar has its own printing
                  equipment, does the publishing,
                  and owns PT's copyrights. Thus,
                  this is just one more cover-up
                  showing that Eckankar is simply
                  another false teaching/religion
                  that can't keep it's promises in/for
                  this Here and Now.

                  Prometheus





                  Jonathan wrote:

                  Prometheus,

                  Thank you for the comments. I found them to be very helpful and very healing.

                  Jonathan
                • postekcon
                  EKULT, AN APPRAISAL I remember the ekult I joined 1970 s. It seemed alive, vibrant, a movement which seemed to know what it was about and where it was going!
                  Message 8 of 22 , Sep 17, 2010
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                    EKULT, AN APPRAISAL

                    I remember the ekult I joined 1970's. It seemed alive, vibrant, a movement which seemed to know what it was about and where it was going! Under the charismatic and artistic leadership of Darwin Gross membership numbers grew and grew. Because the movement was 'CURRENT' for the consciousness of those times, new members came with minimal recruitment effort!

                    We were excited. Ekult promised us it had the 'tools' to experience greater individualism, freedom and spiritual 'unfoldment', and we believed the hype! We had grown up in the 'Flower Power' era and listening to The Beatles music! We were interested in TM (transcendental meditation), we were interested in all things 'eastern' and wanted to know more. Paul Twitchell too, was in-tune with this consciousness, he was 'CURRENT' for the times. The mail order education system he founded, matched those needs. Ignoring all plagiaristic issues here, the books and discourses he compiled from the works of other authors satisfied us for several years.

                    However consciousness, being fluid, changes, moves on and around and ekult got left behind! Ekult shot itself in the foot, the day it gave leadership to Harold Klemp. Unlike Paul Twitchell he has never been able to tune-in to the consciousness (keep 'current'), produce or even 'compile' works which are dynamic and relevant for the times.

                    BTW- In the business world, when a product matches the market forces (consciousness) of the day, it is successful; it is never the other way round!

                    You might like to observe the consciousness of youth and those who are under 30 years of age. They tend to live life to the extreme to the edge of experience e.g. extreme sports etc. They show NO fear of the creation of either sin or karma, or of the consequences of either, whether now or in a hereafter. This is why a karma-based, savior-style religion like the one HK develops makes no sense to their consciousness. Even their devoted ekult parents have been unable to indoctrinate them in ekult ways once they've left the childhood years. (HK himself included as such a parent, I believe!).

                    Ekult is an organization born out of human arrogance! Consider this! What level of human arrogance is shown, where an earthly organization claims it has commandeered the very spirit of god (energy of the universe); claims it can trademark it in earthly law and then proceed to market it for profit!! This reminds me of a certain medieval church? It too claimed it had commandeered the way of 'salvation' for the gullible populace. That medieval church, with its resa-structure-style network of upwards reporting, soon descended the slippery slope to the 'Inquisition'. History has a habit of repeating itself…

                    Perhaps if ekult had stayed with its original brief and admitted openly to the world, it had been founded as a 'reference' point for the best available philosophies and theories for living life, like a Wikipedia, then it might have remained 'CURRENT'. If only it had cleaned up its act, it could have evolved as an altruistic service and been of benefit to mankind today. Instead, seeing the opportunity for financial gain, HK and owner/s colluded to formulate yet another dead religion to add the world's list. The modus operandi reminds me again of that medieval church which once sold indulgences i.e. money to church in exchange for remission of sins in the hereafter! Similarly ekult devotees can gain prominence (get noticed) by spending lots of own time and money in ekult 'service', and are often rewarded with faster progress through the 'initiation' process. To put this very simply, in ekult, receipt of the next initiation signifies the remission of some sin (karma)!

                    'Service' to ekult is always emphasized and hyped as being direct service to the spirit of god! But Catch22 here as ekult also says the true godhead is a Being so detached, it has no interest whether mortals service it or not! What a clever ruse to induce 'service' for ekult coffers and hide its mlm business model. For those of you who may be unfamiliar with how ekult sources funding. In addition to church-plate style donations etc., ekult followers (like mlm affiliates) are expected to service promotional events and fund from their personal wallet promotional materials and products. More importantly, there is also a legal understanding that donations, collected at local level, belong to ekult HQ, and amounts are uploaded accordingly!

                    In conclusion, what of any future for ekult – there is none – it's already too late? To my observations what remains are isolated pockets of ekult devotees mostly seniors, mostly single females! Grayed-out, like inactive pc commands, I note the dynamism and energy, I once admired, is long long dead, while larger and ever larger pics of their cultic leader casts its shadow over them…
                    -Postekcon



                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hello Jonathan,
                    > Thanks. I don't know what I said,
                    > but thanks anyway. Sometimes
                    > I think I should write and thank
                    > Klemp for being such a boring
                    > wannabe who lacks charisma.
                    >
                    > BTW-Imagine how many more
                    > ECKists there would be, now, if
                    > Klemp had even close to the same
                    > amount of charisma as Twitchell
                    > or Gross had.
                    >
                    > Plus, it seems that Klemp has
                    > been in semi-retirement for
                    > a number of years now. This
                    > semi-seclusion/retirement
                    > became more apparent when
                    > he stopped traveling to major
                    > ECK Seminars. I'm thinking that
                    > he made more "cheesy" health
                    > excuses to in order to justify
                    > his changes in behaviour and
                    > not wanting to travel.
                    >
                    > Remember the time HK talked
                    > about eating too much cheese
                    > and this had a negative health
                    > effect upon him? He probably
                    > got constipated! It was stupid
                    > on his part, but isn't that called
                    > gluttony too and is one of the
                    > Five Passions of the Mind. One
                    > would think that a Mahanta
                    > (although not perfect) would
                    > be higher in consciousness.
                    >
                    > However, Klemp turns even his
                    > own lack of consciousness and
                    > common sense around and uses
                    > his ill health as an excuse. His
                    > illnesses have now become the
                    > result of taking on more Karma
                    > for his chelas and acting as a karmic
                    > "holding tank" so that his Chelas
                    > and H.I.s can advance in consciousness
                    > and, thereby, in their initiations.
                    >
                    > How's that worked out for ECKists?
                    > In Eckankar today there are even
                    > more restrictions/requirements
                    > for H.I.s to qualify for the next
                    > higher initiation and title (i.e. cleric,
                    > initiator, ESA, RESA). And, thanks
                    > to Klemp, there are no longer
                    > Major ECK Seminars in California
                    > and Florida in the colder months
                    > of Oct. and March-April.
                    >
                    > BTW- Don't "Holding Tanks" get
                    > emptied so that more can be taken
                    > in? It's an on-going process/cycle
                    > kind of like using that old "Snow
                    > Ball Technique" over and over again.
                    >
                    > Well, this is all a moot point isn't
                    > it. Klemp has no powers... he's a
                    > fraud. I can see why he seems meek,
                    > at times, since he is aware that it's
                    > all a game he's playing and that
                    > any day now he'll be discovered
                    > for being a fraud. That's why he's
                    > not letting ECKists know where
                    > all the money is going since he's
                    > hide enough away to take care
                    > of himself just in case. But, what
                    > will that take for more ECKists to
                    > see through the facade? I don't know...
                    > maybe HK dropping over dead or
                    > having a stroke or maybe cancer?
                    >
                    > Don't get me wrong... I'd never
                    > wish that on anyone, but it happens
                    > everyday to all kinds of people and
                    > even to H.I.s. (of course). Yes, H.I.s
                    > are not special, and they get cancer
                    > too! Thus, Klemp is not exempt
                    > from this happening to him. Look
                    > at Twitchell... he didn't predict
                    > his heart attack and death! But,
                    > according to his own EK scripture
                    > (as the LEM/Mahanta) he should
                    > have known well in advance as
                    > to when he would be translating.
                    >
                    > However, in "Difficulties Of Being
                    > The Living ECK Master" Paul was
                    > meeting with his inner circle of
                    > H.I.s (in a business meeting) on
                    > the day of his death. The notes
                    > and comments of that meeting
                    > are given here. And, PT was making
                    > plans for his future with Eckankar
                    > in this meeting. Paul gave no indication
                    > (just the opposite) of his impending
                    > death on that very same night.
                    >
                    > This is just one more reason as
                    > to why this historical ECK book
                    > was not republished by Eckankar
                    > (Klemp). It's not like "Difficulties"
                    > can't be republished/reprinted
                    > since Eckankar has its own printing
                    > equipment, does the publishing,
                    > and owns PT's copyrights. Thus,
                    > this is just one more cover-up
                    > showing that Eckankar is simply
                    > another false teaching/religion
                    > that can't keep it's promises in/for
                    > this Here and Now.
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Jonathan wrote:
                    >
                    > Prometheus,
                    >
                    > Thank you for the comments. I found them to be very helpful and very healing.
                    >
                    > Jonathan
                    >
                  • jonathanjohns96
                    JJ - Please note. I only pulled forward postekcon s message. I m going to comment on each paragraph. ... JJ - I joined in 1979, and I can confirm that your
                    Message 9 of 22 , Sep 17, 2010
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                      JJ - Please note. I only pulled forward postekcon's message. I'm going to comment on each paragraph.


                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "postekcon" <postekcon@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > EKULT, AN APPRAISAL
                      >
                      > postekcon > I remember the ekult I joined 1970's. It seemed alive, vibrant, a movement which seemed to know what it was about and where it was going! Under the charismatic and artistic leadership of Darwin Gross membership numbers grew and grew. Because the movement was 'CURRENT' for the consciousness of those times, new members came with minimal recruitment effort!
                      >

                      JJ - I joined in 1979, and I can confirm that your description fits Eckankar very well for the 1979 time frame. You really made a very nice description here. I always thought there was a big difference between Eckankar when I joined in 1979 and Eckankar after Klemp had been in charge for awhile. Your description of Eckankar in the 1970s is beautiful.

                      > postekcon > We were excited. Ekult promised us it had the 'tools' to experience greater individualism, freedom and spiritual 'unfoldment', and we believed the hype! We had grown up in the 'Flower Power' era and listening to The Beatles music! We were interested in TM (transcendental meditation), we were interested in all things 'eastern' and wanted to know more. Paul Twitchell too, was in-tune with this consciousness, he was 'CURRENT' for the times. The mail order education system he founded, matched those needs. Ignoring all plagiaristic issues here, the books and discourses he compiled from the works of other authors satisfied us for several years.

                      JJ - Another beautiful description of Eckankar in the 1970s under Gross. I agree completely with your description and comments. Back when I joined in 1979, being interested in "eastern traditions" was OK, even well thought of in Eckankar and in many other parts of society as well. Then under Klemp, he got the "bright" [<-- sarcasm] idea that this was keeping members away. So he steered Eckankar in the direction of imitating Christianity as a way of increasing the membership. Experience has shown that this was a miserable failure in terms of bringing members into Eckankar. After all, other than saying that the HU is a prayer, the underlying teachings are still like the Eastern religions which Eckankar copied (Sant Mant, etc.).

                      >
                      > postekcon > However consciousness, being fluid, changes, moves on and around and ekult got left behind! Ekult shot itself in the foot, the day it gave leadership to Harold Klemp. Unlike Paul Twitchell he has never been able to tune-in to the consciousness (keep 'current'), produce or even 'compile' works which are dynamic and relevant for the times.
                      >

                      JJ - I agree 100% with your statement that "Ekult shot itself in the foot, the day it gave leadership to Harold Klemp." In fact, I had the same thought a few days ago. Even the same metaphor! Your view that it had to do with Klemp's inability to tune into the consciousness of the times is what I disagree with. I don't think Klemp was trying to that in any genuine way. He was only trying to tune into the consciousness of the times by asking the question "How can we get new members into Eckankar?" The answer he came up with was "Make Eckankar look like Christianity on the surface." I think Eckankar should have been honest and true to its roots and promoted itself for what it is: a copy of Sant Mant, etc., which has been modified for Westerners. Instead, Klemp turned Eckankar into something with a thin veneer of Christianity, but with the same basic Eastern teachings underneath (if you look hard enough), but now emphasizing the use of dreams for spiritual unfoldment.

                      > postekcon > BTW- In the business world, when a product matches the market forces (consciousness) of the day, it is successful; it is never the other way round!
                      >
                      > postekcon > You might like to observe the consciousness of youth and those who are under 30 years of age. They tend to live life to the extreme to the edge of experience e.g. extreme sports etc. They show NO fear of the creation of either sin or karma, or of the consequences of either, whether now or in a hereafter. This is why a karma-based, savior-style religion like the one HK develops makes no sense to their consciousness. Even their devoted ekult parents have been unable to indoctrinate them in ekult ways once they've left the childhood years. (HK himself included as such a parent, I believe!).
                      >

                      JJ - ECKANKAR IMITATED CHRISTIANITY. What you say about the under 30 crowd is very true. But that same group of people joined Eckankar like crazy under Gross in the 1970s. Eckankar, as it was originally set up by Twitchell, and maintained by Gross, is never going to be for everyone. It is always going to be for a small minority of people. I think Eckankar's failings in recruitment since 1990 is due to the fact that instead of being true to themselves, they started imitating everyone else. If you have a unique product, why would you ruin your business by starting to imitate everyone else? Eckankar hired a Madison Avenue firm to analyze Eckankar. Klemp spoke about it in one of his talks. Klemp joked that they recommended that Eckankar send Rebazar on a tour around the United States. I think what really happened, is that this report told Eckankar that the Eastern words and concepts were keeping new members away because Eckankar's pool of possible new members is basically people who come from a Christian background, regardless of whether they practice it seriously or not.

                      JJ - ECKANKAR IS A PASSIVE APPROACH TO SPIRITUAL UNFOLDMENT. But the most important issue here may be because Eckankar is a very passive approach (this policy is actually consistent with its Eastern predecessors). And most young people today are not into being passive. Quite the opposite! Under Klemp, Eckankar started emphasizing the use of dreams for spiritual unfoldment. Everything else in Eckankar took a back seat to this approach. And Eckankar today still emphasizes surrendering to the master but much more than Twitchell and Gross did. Again, something that is VERY passive. By the time I left Eckankar in 2008 I was sick of reading Klemp's constant requests in the Mystic World that people love him, etc or they would spiritually hold themselves back. This is NOT what young people today are interested in. They are interested in taking charge and actively pursuing spiritual unfoldment. NOT following the passive approaches put forth by Eckankar. If Eckankar is having any success at all it is because it somehow manages to brainwash some people into thinking that Eckankar's approach is active. But as we all know, it is actually sending people in a direction that keeps them slaves to Eckankar by keeping them in a passive mode of functioning: (1) using dreams for spiritual unfoldment, and (2) relying on a master whom you surrender yourself to.

                      JJ - A quasi-Christian-underlying-Eastern religion emphasizing passive techniques such as dreams for spiritual unfoldment, and requiring people to "surrender to a master" may not be matching the consciousness of today. It just seems that fewer and fewr Westerners are falling for this crap.

                      > postekcon > Ekult is an organization born out of human arrogance! Consider this! What level of human arrogance is shown, where an earthly organization claims it has commandeered the very spirit of god (energy of the universe); claims it can trademark it in earthly law and then proceed to market it for profit!! This reminds me of a certain medieval church? It too claimed it had commandeered the way of 'salvation' for the gullible populace. That medieval church, with its resa-structure-style network of upwards reporting, soon descended the slippery slope to the 'Inquisition'. History has a habit of repeating itself…
                      >

                      JJ - I can't comment about the middle ages because I have no knowledge about it. But you are right about the arrogance of Eckankar trademarking God. As I have written about it before on ET (Eckankar Truth message board) and/or ESA, it is blasphemy against God to think that you can trademark God. Eckankar also trademarked their particular sound of God: HU.

                      > postekcon > Perhaps if ekult had stayed with its original brief and admitted openly to the world, it had been founded as a 'reference' point for the best available philosophies and theories for living life, like a Wikipedia, then it might have remained 'CURRENT'. If only it had cleaned up its act, it could have evolved as an altruistic service and been of benefit to mankind today. Instead, seeing the opportunity for financial gain, HK and owner/s colluded to formulate yet another dead religion to add the world's list. The modus operandi reminds me again of that medieval church which once sold indulgences i.e. money to church in exchange for remission of sins in the hereafter! Similarly ekult devotees can gain prominence (get noticed) by spending lots of own time and money in ekult 'service', and are often rewarded with faster progress through the 'initiation' process. To put this very simply, in ekult, receipt of the next initiation signifies the remission of some sin (karma)!
                      >

                      JJ - One person, Prometheus (on this message board) has written extensively about the "services get rewards" process in Eckankar. I'm sure that both of you are correct. Believe it or not, I was never aware of that in my 29 years in Eckankar (1979-2008). I was out of touch with the actual "goings on" at the local Eck center. I was living in my own world. As a result, much happier, but completely out of touch with what was really going on in Eckankar. In my latter years I had been reading some things about it on the Internet such as Darwin's legal deposition. Honestly, if it wasn't for the Internet, I don't think I would ever found out the truth about Eckankar.

                      JJ - I think there is some truth to your theory as stated in the beginning of your paragraph. When Klemp took over, he no doubt was made privy to the large amount of plagiarism/lies/exaggerations by Paul Twitchell. He had two choices, either "come clean" or cover it up in order to continue Eckankar's money-making scam. He chose to continue Eckankar's money-making scam. I believe that is what you are saying.

                      JJ - Question. In your first sentence, did you mean "beliefs" instead of "breif?" That makes more sense to me.

                      > postekcon > 'Service' to ekult is always emphasized and hyped as being direct service to the spirit of god! But Catch22 here as ekult also says the true godhead is a Being so detached, it has no interest whether mortals service it or not! What a clever ruse to induce 'service' for ekult coffers and hide its mlm business model. For those of you who may be unfamiliar with how ekult sources funding. In addition to church-plate style donations etc., ekult followers (like mlm affiliates) are expected to service promotional events and fund from their personal wallet promotional materials and products. More importantly, there is also a legal understanding that donations, collected at local level, belong to ekult HQ, and amounts are uploaded accordingly!
                      >

                      JJ - Eckankar has a lot of hypocrisy. They speak for God, but in the end it is always about financial gain for Eckankar. But your main point is specifically that in Eckankar "Service for God" is really "Money for Eckankar."

                      JJ - Question. What is "mlm?"

                      >
                      > postekcon > In conclusion, what of any future for ekult – there is none – it's already too late? To my observations what remains are isolated pockets of ekult devotees mostly seniors, mostly single females! Grayed-out, like inactive pc commands, I note the dynamism and energy, I once admired, is long long dead, while larger and ever larger pics of their cultic leader casts its shadow over them…
                      > -Postekcon
                      >

                      JJ - Very eloquent writing on your part. I agree that it is mostly the oldsters that are keeping Eckankar going. I mentioned this in one of my first posts on ET/ESA when I first left Eckankar in December of 2008. I think there are fewer and fewer potential new members who are interested in Klemp's dream-based version of Eckankar. In other words, the emphasizing of dreams for spiritual unfoldment. In my own experiences, all of my work was in full consciousness actually talking to Eck masters on the inner. For that, I was made to feel like a heretic and pariah when I started telling the Eckists over at a.r.e about it. While in Eckankar, I didn't even dare mention it to all but two or three people. So anyone who has capabilities beyond the "dreaming" techniques currently in Eckankar, you would be better off choosing a more advanced path. I don't know what it is, but you might consider a real Native American shaman if you can find one, and if you can handle the rigors of that. An it's not "easy" like Eckankar is. Looking at the big picture, I think it might be OK to get some basic spiritual awareness under Eckankar or some other religion, but after that, move on, because Eckankar has little to offer.

                      JJ - So, postekcon, thanks for your post. It was very well written, and very eloquently written. You made a lot of points, and I agree with virtually all of them.

                      Jonathan
                    • prometheus_973
                      Hello All, I saw the following and it reminded me of something: JJ - I agree 100% with your statement that Ekult shot itself in the foot, the day it gave
                      Message 10 of 22 , Sep 18, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hello All,
                        I saw the following and it reminded me
                        of something:

                        "JJ - I agree 100% with your statement that "Ekult shot itself in the foot, the
                        day it gave leadership to Harold Klemp." In fact, I had the same thought a few
                        days ago. Even the same metaphor! Your view that it had to do with Klemp's
                        inability to tune into the consciousness of the times is what I disagree with. I
                        don't think Klemp was trying to that in any genuine way. He was only trying to
                        tune into the consciousness of the times by asking the question "How can we get
                        new members into Eckankar?" The answer he came up with was "Make Eckankar look
                        like Christianity on the surface." I think Eckankar should have been honest and
                        true to its roots and promoted itself for what it is: a copy of Sant Mant, etc.,
                        which has been modified for Westerners. Instead, Klemp turned Eckankar into
                        something with a thin veneer of Christianity, but with the same basic Eastern
                        teachings underneath (if you look hard enough), but now emphasizing the use of
                        dreams for spiritual unfoldment."

                        [P] Klemp changing the direction of Eckankar
                        towards Christianity with Sunday Worship Services,
                        etc. reminded me of the movie of "Silence of
                        the Lambs." The FBI agent tracked "Buffalo Bill"
                        down by looking at where and what he coveted.

                        The same came be applied to Klemp. He was
                        attending a Luteran Seminary to become a
                        preacher/minister. Thus, he took Eckankar
                        in a direction away from the Eastern Teachings
                        and closer to what he knew and had been
                        trained in. And, since most Eckists come from
                        a Christian background and the fact that this
                        is still, for the most part, a Christian country
                        (as is Europe) this makes for a familiar fit.

                        Got to go now.

                        Prometheus


                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96" <jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > JJ - Please note. I only pulled forward postekcon's message. I'm going to comment on each paragraph.
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "postekcon" <postekcon@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > EKULT, AN APPRAISAL
                        > >
                        > > postekcon > I remember the ekult I joined 1970's. It seemed alive, vibrant, a movement which seemed to know what it was about and where it was going! Under the charismatic and artistic leadership of Darwin Gross membership numbers grew and grew. Because the movement was 'CURRENT' for the consciousness of those times, new members came with minimal recruitment effort!
                        > >
                        >
                        > JJ - I joined in 1979, and I can confirm that your description fits Eckankar very well for the 1979 time frame. You really made a very nice description here. I always thought there was a big difference between Eckankar when I joined in 1979 and Eckankar after Klemp had been in charge for awhile. Your description of Eckankar in the 1970s is beautiful.
                        >
                        > > postekcon > We were excited. Ekult promised us it had the 'tools' to experience greater individualism, freedom and spiritual 'unfoldment', and we believed the hype! We had grown up in the 'Flower Power' era and listening to The Beatles music! We were interested in TM (transcendental meditation), we were interested in all things 'eastern' and wanted to know more. Paul Twitchell too, was in-tune with this consciousness, he was 'CURRENT' for the times. The mail order education system he founded, matched those needs. Ignoring all plagiaristic issues here, the books and discourses he compiled from the works of other authors satisfied us for several years.
                        >
                        > JJ - Another beautiful description of Eckankar in the 1970s under Gross. I agree completely with your description and comments. Back when I joined in 1979, being interested in "eastern traditions" was OK, even well thought of in Eckankar and in many other parts of society as well. Then under Klemp, he got the "bright" [<-- sarcasm] idea that this was keeping members away. So he steered Eckankar in the direction of imitating Christianity as a way of increasing the membership. Experience has shown that this was a miserable failure in terms of bringing members into Eckankar. After all, other than saying that the HU is a prayer, the underlying teachings are still like the Eastern religions which Eckankar copied (Sant Mant, etc.).
                        >
                        > >
                        > > postekcon > However consciousness, being fluid, changes, moves on and around and ekult got left behind! Ekult shot itself in the foot, the day it gave leadership to Harold Klemp. Unlike Paul Twitchell he has never been able to tune-in to the consciousness (keep 'current'), produce or even 'compile' works which are dynamic and relevant for the times.
                        > >
                        >
                        > JJ - I agree 100% with your statement that "Ekult shot itself in the foot, the day it gave leadership to Harold Klemp." In fact, I had the same thought a few days ago. Even the same metaphor! Your view that it had to do with Klemp's inability to tune into the consciousness of the times is what I disagree with. I don't think Klemp was trying to that in any genuine way. He was only trying to tune into the consciousness of the times by asking the question "How can we get new members into Eckankar?" The answer he came up with was "Make Eckankar look like Christianity on the surface." I think Eckankar should have been honest and true to its roots and promoted itself for what it is: a copy of Sant Mant, etc., which has been modified for Westerners. Instead, Klemp turned Eckankar into something with a thin veneer of Christianity, but with the same basic Eastern teachings underneath (if you look hard enough), but now emphasizing the use of dreams for spiritual unfoldment.
                        >
                        > > postekcon > BTW- In the business world, when a product matches the market forces (consciousness) of the day, it is successful; it is never the other way round!
                        > >
                        > > postekcon > You might like to observe the consciousness of youth and those who are under 30 years of age. They tend to live life to the extreme to the edge of experience e.g. extreme sports etc. They show NO fear of the creation of either sin or karma, or of the consequences of either, whether now or in a hereafter. This is why a karma-based, savior-style religion like the one HK develops makes no sense to their consciousness. Even their devoted ekult parents have been unable to indoctrinate them in ekult ways once they've left the childhood years. (HK himself included as such a parent, I believe!).
                        > >
                        >
                        > JJ - ECKANKAR IMITATED CHRISTIANITY. What you say about the under 30 crowd is very true. But that same group of people joined Eckankar like crazy under Gross in the 1970s. Eckankar, as it was originally set up by Twitchell, and maintained by Gross, is never going to be for everyone. It is always going to be for a small minority of people. I think Eckankar's failings in recruitment since 1990 is due to the fact that instead of being true to themselves, they started imitating everyone else. If you have a unique product, why would you ruin your business by starting to imitate everyone else? Eckankar hired a Madison Avenue firm to analyze Eckankar. Klemp spoke about it in one of his talks. Klemp joked that they recommended that Eckankar send Rebazar on a tour around the United States. I think what really happened, is that this report told Eckankar that the Eastern words and concepts were keeping new members away because Eckankar's pool of possible new members is basically people who come from a Christian background, regardless of whether they practice it seriously or not.
                        >
                        > JJ - ECKANKAR IS A PASSIVE APPROACH TO SPIRITUAL UNFOLDMENT. But the most important issue here may be because Eckankar is a very passive approach (this policy is actually consistent with its Eastern predecessors). And most young people today are not into being passive. Quite the opposite! Under Klemp, Eckankar started emphasizing the use of dreams for spiritual unfoldment. Everything else in Eckankar took a back seat to this approach. And Eckankar today still emphasizes surrendering to the master but much more than Twitchell and Gross did. Again, something that is VERY passive. By the time I left Eckankar in 2008 I was sick of reading Klemp's constant requests in the Mystic World that people love him, etc or they would spiritually hold themselves back. This is NOT what young people today are interested in. They are interested in taking charge and actively pursuing spiritual unfoldment. NOT following the passive approaches put forth by Eckankar. If Eckankar is having any success at all it is because it somehow manages to brainwash some people into thinking that Eckankar's approach is active. But as we all know, it is actually sending people in a direction that keeps them slaves to Eckankar by keeping them in a passive mode of functioning: (1) using dreams for spiritual unfoldment, and (2) relying on a master whom you surrender yourself to.
                        >
                        > JJ - A quasi-Christian-underlying-Eastern religion emphasizing passive techniques such as dreams for spiritual unfoldment, and requiring people to "surrender to a master" may not be matching the consciousness of today. It just seems that fewer and fewr Westerners are falling for this crap.
                        >
                        > > postekcon > Ekult is an organization born out of human arrogance! Consider this! What level of human arrogance is shown, where an earthly organization claims it has commandeered the very spirit of god (energy of the universe); claims it can trademark it in earthly law and then proceed to market it for profit!! This reminds me of a certain medieval church? It too claimed it had commandeered the way of 'salvation' for the gullible populace. That medieval church, with its resa-structure-style network of upwards reporting, soon descended the slippery slope to the 'Inquisition'. History has a habit of repeating itself…
                        > >
                        >
                        > JJ - I can't comment about the middle ages because I have no knowledge about it. But you are right about the arrogance of Eckankar trademarking God. As I have written about it before on ET (Eckankar Truth message board) and/or ESA, it is blasphemy against God to think that you can trademark God. Eckankar also trademarked their particular sound of God: HU.
                        >
                        > > postekcon > Perhaps if ekult had stayed with its original brief and admitted openly to the world, it had been founded as a 'reference' point for the best available philosophies and theories for living life, like a Wikipedia, then it might have remained 'CURRENT'. If only it had cleaned up its act, it could have evolved as an altruistic service and been of benefit to mankind today. Instead, seeing the opportunity for financial gain, HK and owner/s colluded to formulate yet another dead religion to add the world's list. The modus operandi reminds me again of that medieval church which once sold indulgences i.e. money to church in exchange for remission of sins in the hereafter! Similarly ekult devotees can gain prominence (get noticed) by spending lots of own time and money in ekult 'service', and are often rewarded with faster progress through the 'initiation' process. To put this very simply, in ekult, receipt of the next initiation signifies the remission of some sin (karma)!
                        > >
                        >
                        > JJ - One person, Prometheus (on this message board) has written extensively about the "services get rewards" process in Eckankar. I'm sure that both of you are correct. Believe it or not, I was never aware of that in my 29 years in Eckankar (1979-2008). I was out of touch with the actual "goings on" at the local Eck center. I was living in my own world. As a result, much happier, but completely out of touch with what was really going on in Eckankar. In my latter years I had been reading some things about it on the Internet such as Darwin's legal deposition. Honestly, if it wasn't for the Internet, I don't think I would ever found out the truth about Eckankar.
                        >
                        > JJ - I think there is some truth to your theory as stated in the beginning of your paragraph. When Klemp took over, he no doubt was made privy to the large amount of plagiarism/lies/exaggerations by Paul Twitchell. He had two choices, either "come clean" or cover it up in order to continue Eckankar's money-making scam. He chose to continue Eckankar's money-making scam. I believe that is what you are saying.
                        >
                        > JJ - Question. In your first sentence, did you mean "beliefs" instead of "breif?" That makes more sense to me.
                        >
                        > > postekcon > 'Service' to ekult is always emphasized and hyped as being direct service to the spirit of god! But Catch22 here as ekult also says the true godhead is a Being so detached, it has no interest whether mortals service it or not! What a clever ruse to induce 'service' for ekult coffers and hide its mlm business model. For those of you who may be unfamiliar with how ekult sources funding. In addition to church-plate style donations etc., ekult followers (like mlm affiliates) are expected to service promotional events and fund from their personal wallet promotional materials and products. More importantly, there is also a legal understanding that donations, collected at local level, belong to ekult HQ, and amounts are uploaded accordingly!
                        > >
                        >
                        > JJ - Eckankar has a lot of hypocrisy. They speak for God, but in the end it is always about financial gain for Eckankar. But your main point is specifically that in Eckankar "Service for God" is really "Money for Eckankar."
                        >
                        > JJ - Question. What is "mlm?"
                        >
                        > >
                        > > postekcon > In conclusion, what of any future for ekult – there is none – it's already too late? To my observations what remains are isolated pockets of ekult devotees mostly seniors, mostly single females! Grayed-out, like inactive pc commands, I note the dynamism and energy, I once admired, is long long dead, while larger and ever larger pics of their cultic leader casts its shadow over them…
                        > > -Postekcon
                        > >
                        >
                        > JJ - Very eloquent writing on your part. I agree that it is mostly the oldsters that are keeping Eckankar going. I mentioned this in one of my first posts on ET/ESA when I first left Eckankar in December of 2008. I think there are fewer and fewer potential new members who are interested in Klemp's dream-based version of Eckankar. In other words, the emphasizing of dreams for spiritual unfoldment. In my own experiences, all of my work was in full consciousness actually talking to Eck masters on the inner. For that, I was made to feel like a heretic and pariah when I started telling the Eckists over at a.r.e about it. While in Eckankar, I didn't even dare mention it to all but two or three people. So anyone who has capabilities beyond the "dreaming" techniques currently in Eckankar, you would be better off choosing a more advanced path. I don't know what it is, but you might consider a real Native American shaman if you can find one, and if you can handle the rigors of that. An it's not "easy" like Eckankar is. Looking at the big picture, I think it might be OK to get some basic spiritual awareness under Eckankar or some other religion, but after that, move on, because Eckankar has little to offer.
                        >
                        > JJ - So, postekcon, thanks for your post. It was very well written, and very eloquently written. You made a lot of points, and I agree with virtually all of them.
                        >
                        > Jonathan
                        >
                      • etznab@aol.com
                        I could identify with a number of points in that appraisal. I liked this part especially: BTW- In the business world, when a product matches the market forces
                        Message 11 of 22 , Sep 18, 2010
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I could identify with a number of points in
                          that appraisal. I liked this part especially:

                          "BTW- In the business world, when a product
                          matches the market forces (consciousness)
                          of the day, it is successful; it is never the
                          other way round!"

                          And about the youth, and consciousness,
                          the youth of today have easy access to a
                          lot more information and sources of inform-
                          ation for research purposes, where most of
                          the older generations had the library and a
                          card catalog.

                          I'd often thought about Paul Twitchell in the
                          library, compiling and researching. And now
                          I ask myself: WHY DID IT EVER STOP?

                          Today, with the resources available, people
                          can not only look at materials that Paul T.
                          compiled & researched from, but they can
                          take it further by continuing to compile and
                          research (not forgetting to cite references &
                          credit sources, of course). However, how
                          much does it happen in organized religion?
                          Because, doesn't it challenge the traditional
                          existing dogma whenever a person decides
                          to improve on it? Or, go beyond it? (Not to
                          mention, expose it, give some history of it
                          and show where it REALLY came from.)

                          What are Eckankar's chances of seeing a
                          "REFORMATION"? Personally, I think it's
                          inevitable. The organization will change, or
                          will become another fossil religion. Both of
                          these forces are working antagonistic to
                          one another in the lives of many people to-
                          day, IMO. There is the traditional religious
                          dogma and there is the need to change it.
                          Some want change, and others are afraid
                          of what that will mean to the old cherished
                          dogma.

                          Etznab

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: postekcon <postekcon@...>
                          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Fri, Sep 17, 2010 2:40 am
                          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: All ECKists Should Respond To
                          This In Order To Vent

                           
                          EKULT, AN APPRAISAL

                          I remember the ekult I joined 1970's. It seemed alive, vibrant, a
                          movement which seemed to know what it was about and where it was going!
                          Under the charismatic and artistic leadership of Darwin Gross
                          membership numbers grew and grew. Because the movement was 'CURRENT'
                          for the consciousness of those times, new members came with minimal
                          recruitment effort!

                          We were excited. Ekult promised us it had the 'tools' to experience
                          greater individualism, freedom and spiritual 'unfoldment', and we
                          believed the hype! We had grown up in the 'Flower Power' era and
                          listening to The Beatles music! We were interested in TM
                          (transcendental meditation), we were interested in all things 'eastern'
                          and wanted to know more. Paul Twitchell too, was in-tune with this
                          consciousness, he was 'CURRENT' for the times. The mail order education
                          system he founded, matched those needs. Ignoring all plagiaristic
                          issues here, the books and discourses he compiled from the works of
                          other authors satisfied us for several years.

                          However consciousness, being fluid, changes, moves on and around and
                          ekult got left behind! Ekult shot itself in the foot, the day it gave
                          leadership to Harold Klemp. Unlike Paul Twitchell he has never been
                          able to tune-in to the consciousness (keep 'current'), produce or even
                          'compile' works which are dynamic and relevant for the times.

                          BTW- In the business world, when a product matches the market forces
                          (consciousness) of the day, it is successful; it is never the other way
                          round!

                          You might like to observe the consciousness of youth and those who are
                          under 30 years of age. They tend to live life to the extreme to the
                          edge of experience e.g. extreme sports etc. They show NO fear of the
                          creation of either sin or karma, or of the consequences of either,
                          whether now or in a hereafter. This is why a karma-based, savior-style
                          religion like the one HK develops makes no sense to their
                          consciousness. Even their devoted ekult parents have been unable to
                          indoctrinate them in ekult ways once they've left the childhood years.
                          (HK himself included as such a parent, I believe!).

                          Ekult is an organization born out of human arrogance! Consider this!
                          What level of human arrogance is shown, where an earthly organization
                          claims it has commandeered the very spirit of god (energy of the
                          universe); claims it can trademark it in earthly law and then proceed
                          to market it for profit!! This reminds me of a certain medieval
                          church? It too claimed it had commandeered the way of 'salvation' for
                          the gullible populace. That medieval church, with its
                          resa-structure-style network of upwards reporting, soon descended the
                          slippery slope to the 'Inquisition'. History has a habit of repeating
                          itself…

                          Perhaps if ekult had stayed with its original brief and admitted openly
                          to the world, it had been founded as a 'reference' point for the best
                          available philosophies and theories for living life, like a Wikipedia,
                          then it might have remained 'CURRENT'. If only it had cleaned up its
                          act, it could have evolved as an altruistic service and been of benefit
                          to mankind today. Instead, seeing the opportunity for financial gain,
                          HK and owner/s colluded to formulate yet another dead religion to add
                          the world's list. The modus operandi reminds me again of that medieval
                          church which once sold indulgences i.e. money to church in exchange for
                          remission of sins in the hereafter! Similarly ekult devotees can gain
                          prominence (get noticed) by spending lots of own time and money in
                          ekult 'service', and are often rewarded with faster progress through
                          the 'initiation' process. To put this very simply, in ekult, receipt of
                          the next initiation signifies the remission of some sin (karma)!

                          'Service' to ekult is always emphasized and hyped as being direct
                          service to the spirit of god! But Catch22 here as ekult also says the
                          true godhead is a Being so detached, it has no interest whether mortals
                          service it or not! What a clever ruse to induce 'service' for ekult
                          coffers and hide its mlm business model. For those of you who may be
                          unfamiliar with how ekult sources funding. In addition to church-plate
                          style donations etc., ekult followers (like mlm affiliates) are
                          expected to service promotional events and fund from their personal
                          wallet promotional materials and products. More importantly, there is
                          also a legal understanding that donations, collected at local level,
                          belong to ekult HQ, and amounts are uploaded accordingly!

                          In conclusion, what of any future for ekult – there is none – it's
                          already too late? To my observations what remains are isolated pockets
                          of ekult devotees mostly seniors, mostly single females! Grayed-out,
                          like inactive pc commands, I note the dynamism and energy, I once
                          admired, is long long dead, while larger and ever larger pics of their
                          cultic leader casts its shadow over them…
                          -Postekcon

                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                          <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hello Jonathan,
                          > Thanks. I don't know what I said,
                          > but thanks anyway. Sometimes
                          > I think I should write and thank
                          > Klemp for being such a boring
                          > wannabe who lacks charisma.
                          >
                          > BTW-Imagine how many more
                          > ECKists there would be, now, if
                          > Klemp had even close to the same
                          > amount of charisma as Twitchell
                          > or Gross had.
                          >
                          > Plus, it seems that Klemp has
                          > been in semi-retirement for
                          > a number of years now. This
                          > semi-seclusion/retirement
                          > became more apparent when
                          > he stopped traveling to major
                          > ECK Seminars. I'm thinking that
                          > he made more "cheesy" health
                          > excuses to in order to justify
                          > his changes in behaviour and
                          > not wanting to travel.
                          >
                          > Remember the time HK talked
                          > about eating too much cheese
                          > and this had a negative health
                          > effect upon him? He probably
                          > got constipated! It was stupid
                          > on his part, but isn't that called
                          > gluttony too and is one of the
                          > Five Passions of the Mind. One
                          > would think that a Mahanta
                          > (although not perfect) would
                          > be higher in consciousness.
                          >
                          > However, Klemp turns even his
                          > own lack of consciousness and
                          > common sense around and uses
                          > his ill health as an excuse. His
                          > illnesses have now become the
                          > result of taking on more Karma
                          > for his chelas and acting as a karmic
                          > "holding tank" so that his Chelas
                          > and H.I.s can advance in consciousness
                          > and, thereby, in their initiations.
                          >
                          > How's that worked out for ECKists?
                          > In Eckankar today there are even
                          > more restrictions/requirements
                          > for H.I.s to qualify for the next
                          > higher initiation and title (i.e. cleric,
                          > initiator, ESA, RESA). And, thanks
                          > to Klemp, there are no longer
                          > Major ECK Seminars in California
                          > and Florida in the colder months
                          > of Oct. and March-April.
                          >
                          > BTW- Don't "Holding Tanks" get
                          > emptied so that more can be taken
                          > in? It's an on-going process/cycle
                          > kind of like using that old "Snow
                          > Ball Technique" over and over again.
                          >
                          > Well, this is all a moot point isn't
                          > it. Klemp has no powers... he's a
                          > fraud. I can see why he seems meek,
                          > at times, since he is aware that it's
                          > all a game he's playing and that
                          > any day now he'll be discovered
                          > for being a fraud. That's why he's
                          > not letting ECKists know where
                          > all the money is going since he's
                          > hide enough away to take care
                          > of himself just in case. But, what
                          > will that take for more ECKists to
                          > see through the facade? I don't know...
                          > maybe HK dropping over dead or
                          > having a stroke or maybe cancer?
                          >
                          > Don't get me wrong... I'd never
                          > wish that on anyone, but it happens
                          > everyday to all kinds of people and
                          > even to H.I.s. (of course). Yes, H.I.s
                          > are not special, and they get cancer
                          > too! Thus, Klemp is not exempt
                          > from this happening to him. Look
                          > at Twitchell... he didn't predict
                          > his heart attack and death! But,
                          > according to his own EK scripture
                          > (as the LEM/Mahanta) he should
                          > have known well in advance as
                          > to when he would be translating.
                          >
                          > However, in "Difficulties Of Being
                          > The Living ECK Master" Paul was
                          > meeting with his inner circle of
                          > H.I.s (in a business meeting) on
                          > the day of his death. The notes
                          > and comments of that meeting
                          > are given here. And, PT was making
                          > plans for his future with Eckankar
                          > in this meeting. Paul gave no indication
                          > (just the opposite) of his impending
                          > death on that very same night.
                          >
                          > This is just one more reason as
                          > to why this historical ECK book
                          > was not republished by Eckankar
                          > (Klemp). It's not like "Difficulties"
                          > can't be republished/reprinted
                          > since Eckankar has its own printing
                          > equipment, does the publishing,
                          > and owns PT's copyrights. Thus,
                          > this is just one more cover-up
                          > showing that Eckankar is simply
                          > another false teaching/religion
                          > that can't keep it's promises in/for
                          > this Here and Now.
                          >
                          > Prometheus
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Jonathan wrote:
                          >
                          > Prometheus,
                          >
                          > Thank you for the comments. I found them to be very helpful and
                          very healing.
                          >
                          > Jonathan
                          >
                        • postekcon
                          Thank you all for responses... My reference to the medieval church and the indulgences issue, i.e. money to church in exchange for remission of sin in the
                          Message 12 of 22 , Sep 18, 2010
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                            Thank you all for responses...

                            My reference to the medieval church and the 'indulgences' issue, i.e. money to church in exchange for remission of sin in the hereafter, was a special point for HK himself, which he will fully understand from his Lutheran upbringing...

                            The indulgences issue was the great trigger point for the Protestant Reformation. The big irony here is LOL; we now see HK and his concocted church repeating history... 'Service' (time/money) to ekult in exchange for the remission of sin/karma!

                            The lem, due to his high initiation level, claims he is god's rep in all universes. So how come, it is only those who 'service' ekult who are on his fast-track to spiritual enlightenment?

                            A question, I know, many ekult devotees ask of themselves! Ekult is a religion where service to all life is recommended as a way of life! So why is it this 'service' must be in visible form for ekult, for it to actually count as 'service'?
                            -Postekcon
                            p.s. in original post, mlm = multi-level-marketing.



                            Jonathan &

                            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
                            >
                            > I could identify with a number of points in
                            > that appraisal. I liked this part especially:
                            >
                            > "BTW- In the business world, when a product
                            > matches the market forces (consciousness)
                            > of the day, it is successful; it is never the
                            > other way round!"
                            >
                            > And about the youth, and consciousness,
                            > the youth of today have easy access to a
                            > lot more information and sources of inform-
                            > ation for research purposes, where most of
                            > the older generations had the library and a
                            > card catalog.
                            >
                            > I'd often thought about Paul Twitchell in the
                            > library, compiling and researching. And now
                            > I ask myself: WHY DID IT EVER STOP?
                            >
                            > Today, with the resources available, people
                            > can not only look at materials that Paul T.
                            > compiled & researched from, but they can
                            > take it further by continuing to compile and
                            > research (not forgetting to cite references &
                            > credit sources, of course). However, how
                            > much does it happen in organized religion?
                            > Because, doesn't it challenge the traditional
                            > existing dogma whenever a person decides
                            > to improve on it? Or, go beyond it? (Not to
                            > mention, expose it, give some history of it
                            > and show where it REALLY came from.)
                            >
                            > What are Eckankar's chances of seeing a
                            > "REFORMATION"? Personally, I think it's
                            > inevitable. The organization will change, or
                            > will become another fossil religion. Both of
                            > these forces are working antagonistic to
                            > one another in the lives of many people to-
                            > day, IMO. There is the traditional religious
                            > dogma and there is the need to change it.
                            > Some want change, and others are afraid
                            > of what that will mean to the old cherished
                            > dogma.
                            >
                            > Etznab
                            >
                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: postekcon <postekcon@...>
                            > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Fri, Sep 17, 2010 2:40 am
                            > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: All ECKists Should Respond To
                            > This In Order To Vent
                            >
                            >  
                            > EKULT, AN APPRAISAL
                            >
                            > I remember the ekult I joined 1970's. It seemed alive, vibrant, a
                            > movement which seemed to know what it was about and where it was going!
                            > Under the charismatic and artistic leadership of Darwin Gross
                            > membership numbers grew and grew. Because the movement was 'CURRENT'
                            > for the consciousness of those times, new members came with minimal
                            > recruitment effort!
                            >
                            > We were excited. Ekult promised us it had the 'tools' to experience
                            > greater individualism, freedom and spiritual 'unfoldment', and we
                            > believed the hype! We had grown up in the 'Flower Power' era and
                            > listening to The Beatles music! We were interested in TM
                            > (transcendental meditation), we were interested in all things 'eastern'
                            > and wanted to know more. Paul Twitchell too, was in-tune with this
                            > consciousness, he was 'CURRENT' for the times. The mail order education
                            > system he founded, matched those needs. Ignoring all plagiaristic
                            > issues here, the books and discourses he compiled from the works of
                            > other authors satisfied us for several years.
                            >
                            > However consciousness, being fluid, changes, moves on and around and
                            > ekult got left behind! Ekult shot itself in the foot, the day it gave
                            > leadership to Harold Klemp. Unlike Paul Twitchell he has never been
                            > able to tune-in to the consciousness (keep 'current'), produce or even
                            > 'compile' works which are dynamic and relevant for the times.
                            >
                            > BTW- In the business world, when a product matches the market forces
                            > (consciousness) of the day, it is successful; it is never the other way
                            > round!
                            >
                            > You might like to observe the consciousness of youth and those who are
                            > under 30 years of age. They tend to live life to the extreme to the
                            > edge of experience e.g. extreme sports etc. They show NO fear of the
                            > creation of either sin or karma, or of the consequences of either,
                            > whether now or in a hereafter. This is why a karma-based, savior-style
                            > religion like the one HK develops makes no sense to their
                            > consciousness. Even their devoted ekult parents have been unable to
                            > indoctrinate them in ekult ways once they've left the childhood years.
                            > (HK himself included as such a parent, I believe!).
                            >
                            > Ekult is an organization born out of human arrogance! Consider this!
                            > What level of human arrogance is shown, where an earthly organization
                            > claims it has commandeered the very spirit of god (energy of the
                            > universe); claims it can trademark it in earthly law and then proceed
                            > to market it for profit!! This reminds me of a certain medieval
                            > church? It too claimed it had commandeered the way of 'salvation' for
                            > the gullible populace. That medieval church, with its
                            > resa-structure-style network of upwards reporting, soon descended the
                            > slippery slope to the 'Inquisition'. History has a habit of repeating
                            > itself…
                            >
                            > Perhaps if ekult had stayed with its original brief and admitted openly
                            > to the world, it had been founded as a 'reference' point for the best
                            > available philosophies and theories for living life, like a Wikipedia,
                            > then it might have remained 'CURRENT'. If only it had cleaned up its
                            > act, it could have evolved as an altruistic service and been of benefit
                            > to mankind today. Instead, seeing the opportunity for financial gain,
                            > HK and owner/s colluded to formulate yet another dead religion to add
                            > the world's list. The modus operandi reminds me again of that medieval
                            > church which once sold indulgences i.e. money to church in exchange for
                            > remission of sins in the hereafter! Similarly ekult devotees can gain
                            > prominence (get noticed) by spending lots of own time and money in
                            > ekult 'service', and are often rewarded with faster progress through
                            > the 'initiation' process. To put this very simply, in ekult, receipt of
                            > the next initiation signifies the remission of some sin (karma)!
                            >
                            > 'Service' to ekult is always emphasized and hyped as being direct
                            > service to the spirit of god! But Catch22 here as ekult also says the
                            > true godhead is a Being so detached, it has no interest whether mortals
                            > service it or not! What a clever ruse to induce 'service' for ekult
                            > coffers and hide its mlm business model. For those of you who may be
                            > unfamiliar with how ekult sources funding. In addition to church-plate
                            > style donations etc., ekult followers (like mlm affiliates) are
                            > expected to service promotional events and fund from their personal
                            > wallet promotional materials and products. More importantly, there is
                            > also a legal understanding that donations, collected at local level,
                            > belong to ekult HQ, and amounts are uploaded accordingly!
                            >
                            > In conclusion, what of any future for ekult â€" there is none â€" it's
                            > already too late? To my observations what remains are isolated pockets
                            > of ekult devotees mostly seniors, mostly single females! Grayed-out,
                            > like inactive pc commands, I note the dynamism and energy, I once
                            > admired, is long long dead, while larger and ever larger pics of their
                            > cultic leader casts its shadow over them…
                            > -Postekcon
                            >
                            > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                            > prometheus_973@ wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Hello Jonathan,
                            > > Thanks. I don't know what I said,
                            > > but thanks anyway. Sometimes
                            > > I think I should write and thank
                            > > Klemp for being such a boring
                            > > wannabe who lacks charisma.
                            > >
                            > > BTW-Imagine how many more
                            > > ECKists there would be, now, if
                            > > Klemp had even close to the same
                            > > amount of charisma as Twitchell
                            > > or Gross had.
                            > >
                            > > Plus, it seems that Klemp has
                            > > been in semi-retirement for
                            > > a number of years now. This
                            > > semi-seclusion/retirement
                            > > became more apparent when
                            > > he stopped traveling to major
                            > > ECK Seminars. I'm thinking that
                            > > he made more "cheesy" health
                            > > excuses to in order to justify
                            > > his changes in behaviour and
                            > > not wanting to travel.
                            > >
                            > > Remember the time HK talked
                            > > about eating too much cheese
                            > > and this had a negative health
                            > > effect upon him? He probably
                            > > got constipated! It was stupid
                            > > on his part, but isn't that called
                            > > gluttony too and is one of the
                            > > Five Passions of the Mind. One
                            > > would think that a Mahanta
                            > > (although not perfect) would
                            > > be higher in consciousness.
                            > >
                            > > However, Klemp turns even his
                            > > own lack of consciousness and
                            > > common sense around and uses
                            > > his ill health as an excuse. His
                            > > illnesses have now become the
                            > > result of taking on more Karma
                            > > for his chelas and acting as a karmic
                            > > "holding tank" so that his Chelas
                            > > and H.I.s can advance in consciousness
                            > > and, thereby, in their initiations.
                            > >
                            > > How's that worked out for ECKists?
                            > > In Eckankar today there are even
                            > > more restrictions/requirements
                            > > for H.I.s to qualify for the next
                            > > higher initiation and title (i.e. cleric,
                            > > initiator, ESA, RESA). And, thanks
                            > > to Klemp, there are no longer
                            > > Major ECK Seminars in California
                            > > and Florida in the colder months
                            > > of Oct. and March-April.
                            > >
                            > > BTW- Don't "Holding Tanks" get
                            > > emptied so that more can be taken
                            > > in? It's an on-going process/cycle
                            > > kind of like using that old "Snow
                            > > Ball Technique" over and over again.
                            > >
                            > > Well, this is all a moot point isn't
                            > > it. Klemp has no powers... he's a
                            > > fraud. I can see why he seems meek,
                            > > at times, since he is aware that it's
                            > > all a game he's playing and that
                            > > any day now he'll be discovered
                            > > for being a fraud. That's why he's
                            > > not letting ECKists know where
                            > > all the money is going since he's
                            > > hide enough away to take care
                            > > of himself just in case. But, what
                            > > will that take for more ECKists to
                            > > see through the facade? I don't know...
                            > > maybe HK dropping over dead or
                            > > having a stroke or maybe cancer?
                            > >
                            > > Don't get me wrong... I'd never
                            > > wish that on anyone, but it happens
                            > > everyday to all kinds of people and
                            > > even to H.I.s. (of course). Yes, H.I.s
                            > > are not special, and they get cancer
                            > > too! Thus, Klemp is not exempt
                            > > from this happening to him. Look
                            > > at Twitchell... he didn't predict
                            > > his heart attack and death! But,
                            > > according to his own EK scripture
                            > > (as the LEM/Mahanta) he should
                            > > have known well in advance as
                            > > to when he would be translating.
                            > >
                            > > However, in "Difficulties Of Being
                            > > The Living ECK Master" Paul was
                            > > meeting with his inner circle of
                            > > H.I.s (in a business meeting) on
                            > > the day of his death. The notes
                            > > and comments of that meeting
                            > > are given here. And, PT was making
                            > > plans for his future with Eckankar
                            > > in this meeting. Paul gave no indication
                            > > (just the opposite) of his impending
                            > > death on that very same night.
                            > >
                            > > This is just one more reason as
                            > > to why this historical ECK book
                            > > was not republished by Eckankar
                            > > (Klemp). It's not like "Difficulties"
                            > > can't be republished/reprinted
                            > > since Eckankar has its own printing
                            > > equipment, does the publishing,
                            > > and owns PT's copyrights. Thus,
                            > > this is just one more cover-up
                            > > showing that Eckankar is simply
                            > > another false teaching/religion
                            > > that can't keep it's promises in/for
                            > > this Here and Now.
                            > >
                            > > Prometheus
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Jonathan wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Prometheus,
                            > >
                            > > Thank you for the comments. I found them to be very helpful and
                            > very healing.
                            > >
                            > > Jonathan
                            > >
                            >
                          • prometheus_973
                            Hello Postekcon and All, Thanks for the post. Yes, it seems that indulgences have taken on the name of service with Eckankar. However, indulgences were
                            Message 13 of 22 , Sep 19, 2010
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                              Hello Postekcon and All,
                              Thanks for the post. Yes, it seems that
                              "indulgences" have taken on the name
                              of "service" with Eckankar. However,
                              indulgences were strictly sold for money.
                              Klemp, however, needs a free/volunteer
                              sales team to sell his wares (and Eckankar's),
                              while he gets 50% royalties for anything
                              with his name on it.

                              But, what do these ECKists get on the
                              lower planes for/from their lower plane
                              service? Well, if you're a 7th Initiate and
                              an ESA and don't want the headache
                              of being a RESA then you don't get
                              anything because you've hit the glass
                              ceiling.

                              Maybe one can be a Director within
                              the Satsang but that's a pain with
                              people calling you all the time and
                              then having to write reports and plan
                              events etc. Plus you have to call people
                              and remind them to write and turn
                              in their reports to you! Except for
                              being in the limelight and having
                              some power it's really not worth it.
                              But, for some the small amount of
                              power and notoriety would be worth
                              it the hassle I guess but it won't get
                              you anywhere except to be considered
                              for the RESA's spot when/if it opens
                              up. The RESA position is a status
                              position, but for those 7ths who
                              have been there and done that
                              there's nothing else except the
                              hope of getting an 8th. But Klemp
                              is a tight ass and doesn't want to
                              share the wealth so kiss that 8th
                              good-bye. But who knows...
                              Of course that's another Catch-22.
                              If an ECKists desires or covenants
                              that 8th (or whatever) too much
                              then this is why it won't come.
                              But if you "surrender" and give-
                              up your desires then it becomes
                              more possible, but still improbable.
                              That's the "carrot" that is dangled
                              in front of their noses and keeps
                              them distracted in yet another
                              manmade religion.

                              Anyway, if you're not yet an ESA or
                              a 7th Initiate then you are more motivated
                              to play the game. Status and power are
                              the motivators (along with the promises
                              of all the "higher heavenly" benefits one
                              can imagine). Some people need religion.
                              The irony is that ECKists see themselves
                              "above" all other religions while not
                              seeing that they have fallen into the
                              same religious trap.

                              Prometheus

                              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "postekcon" <postekcon@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Thank you all for responses...
                              >
                              > My reference to the medieval church and the 'indulgences' issue, i.e. money to church in exchange for remission of sin in the hereafter, was a special point for HK himself, which he will fully understand from his Lutheran upbringing...
                              >
                              > The indulgences issue was the great trigger point for the Protestant Reformation. The big irony here is LOL; we now see HK and his concocted church repeating history... 'Service' (time/money) to ekult in exchange for the remission of sin/karma!
                              >
                              > The lem, due to his high initiation level, claims he is god's rep in all universes. So how come, it is only those who 'service' ekult who are on his fast-track to spiritual enlightenment?
                              >
                              > A question, I know, many ekult devotees ask of themselves! Ekult is a religion where service to all life is recommended as a way of life! So why is it this 'service' must be in visible form for ekult, for it to actually count as 'service'?
                              > -Postekcon
                              > p.s. in original post, mlm = multi-level-marketing.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Jonathan &
                              >
                              > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                              > >
                              > > I could identify with a number of points in
                              > > that appraisal. I liked this part especially:
                              > >
                              > > "BTW- In the business world, when a product
                              > > matches the market forces (consciousness)
                              > > of the day, it is successful; it is never the
                              > > other way round!"
                              > >
                              > > And about the youth, and consciousness,
                              > > the youth of today have easy access to a
                              > > lot more information and sources of inform-
                              > > ation for research purposes, where most of
                              > > the older generations had the library and a
                              > > card catalog.
                              > >
                              > > I'd often thought about Paul Twitchell in the
                              > > library, compiling and researching. And now
                              > > I ask myself: WHY DID IT EVER STOP?
                              > >
                              > > Today, with the resources available, people
                              > > can not only look at materials that Paul T.
                              > > compiled & researched from, but they can
                              > > take it further by continuing to compile and
                              > > research (not forgetting to cite references &
                              > > credit sources, of course). However, how
                              > > much does it happen in organized religion?
                              > > Because, doesn't it challenge the traditional
                              > > existing dogma whenever a person decides
                              > > to improve on it? Or, go beyond it? (Not to
                              > > mention, expose it, give some history of it
                              > > and show where it REALLY came from.)
                              > >
                              > > What are Eckankar's chances of seeing a
                              > > "REFORMATION"? Personally, I think it's
                              > > inevitable. The organization will change, or
                              > > will become another fossil religion. Both of
                              > > these forces are working antagonistic to
                              > > one another in the lives of many people to-
                              > > day, IMO. There is the traditional religious
                              > > dogma and there is the need to change it.
                              > > Some want change, and others are afraid
                              > > of what that will mean to the old cherished
                              > > dogma.
                              > >
                              > > Etznab
                              > >
                              > > -----Original Message-----
                              > > From: postekcon <postekcon@>
                              > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                              > > Sent: Fri, Sep 17, 2010 2:40 am
                              > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: All ECKists Should Respond To
                              > > This In Order To Vent
                              > >
                              > >  
                              > > EKULT, AN APPRAISAL
                              > >
                              > > I remember the ekult I joined 1970's. It seemed alive, vibrant, a
                              > > movement which seemed to know what it was about and where it was going!
                              > > Under the charismatic and artistic leadership of Darwin Gross
                              > > membership numbers grew and grew. Because the movement was 'CURRENT'
                              > > for the consciousness of those times, new members came with minimal
                              > > recruitment effort!
                              > >
                              > > We were excited. Ekult promised us it had the 'tools' to experience
                              > > greater individualism, freedom and spiritual 'unfoldment', and we
                              > > believed the hype! We had grown up in the 'Flower Power' era and
                              > > listening to The Beatles music! We were interested in TM
                              > > (transcendental meditation), we were interested in all things 'eastern'
                              > > and wanted to know more. Paul Twitchell too, was in-tune with this
                              > > consciousness, he was 'CURRENT' for the times. The mail order education
                              > > system he founded, matched those needs. Ignoring all plagiaristic
                              > > issues here, the books and discourses he compiled from the works of
                              > > other authors satisfied us for several years.
                              > >
                              > > However consciousness, being fluid, changes, moves on and around and
                              > > ekult got left behind! Ekult shot itself in the foot, the day it gave
                              > > leadership to Harold Klemp. Unlike Paul Twitchell he has never been
                              > > able to tune-in to the consciousness (keep 'current'), produce or even
                              > > 'compile' works which are dynamic and relevant for the times.
                              > >
                              > > BTW- In the business world, when a product matches the market forces
                              > > (consciousness) of the day, it is successful; it is never the other way
                              > > round!
                              > >
                              > > You might like to observe the consciousness of youth and those who are
                              > > under 30 years of age. They tend to live life to the extreme to the
                              > > edge of experience e.g. extreme sports etc. They show NO fear of the
                              > > creation of either sin or karma, or of the consequences of either,
                              > > whether now or in a hereafter. This is why a karma-based, savior-style
                              > > religion like the one HK develops makes no sense to their
                              > > consciousness. Even their devoted ekult parents have been unable to
                              > > indoctrinate them in ekult ways once they've left the childhood years.
                              > > (HK himself included as such a parent, I believe!).
                              > >
                              > > Ekult is an organization born out of human arrogance! Consider this!
                              > > What level of human arrogance is shown, where an earthly organization
                              > > claims it has commandeered the very spirit of god (energy of the
                              > > universe); claims it can trademark it in earthly law and then proceed
                              > > to market it for profit!! This reminds me of a certain medieval
                              > > church? It too claimed it had commandeered the way of 'salvation' for
                              > > the gullible populace. That medieval church, with its
                              > > resa-structure-style network of upwards reporting, soon descended the
                              > > slippery slope to the 'Inquisition'. History has a habit of repeating
                              > > itself…
                              > >
                              > > Perhaps if ekult had stayed with its original brief and admitted openly
                              > > to the world, it had been founded as a 'reference' point for the best
                              > > available philosophies and theories for living life, like a Wikipedia,
                              > > then it might have remained 'CURRENT'. If only it had cleaned up its
                              > > act, it could have evolved as an altruistic service and been of benefit
                              > > to mankind today. Instead, seeing the opportunity for financial gain,
                              > > HK and owner/s colluded to formulate yet another dead religion to add
                              > > the world's list. The modus operandi reminds me again of that medieval
                              > > church which once sold indulgences i.e. money to church in exchange for
                              > > remission of sins in the hereafter! Similarly ekult devotees can gain
                              > > prominence (get noticed) by spending lots of own time and money in
                              > > ekult 'service', and are often rewarded with faster progress through
                              > > the 'initiation' process. To put this very simply, in ekult, receipt of
                              > > the next initiation signifies the remission of some sin (karma)!
                              > >
                              > > 'Service' to ekult is always emphasized and hyped as being direct
                              > > service to the spirit of god! But Catch22 here as ekult also says the
                              > > true godhead is a Being so detached, it has no interest whether mortals
                              > > service it or not! What a clever ruse to induce 'service' for ekult
                              > > coffers and hide its mlm business model. For those of you who may be
                              > > unfamiliar with how ekult sources funding. In addition to church-plate
                              > > style donations etc., ekult followers (like mlm affiliates) are
                              > > expected to service promotional events and fund from their personal
                              > > wallet promotional materials and products. More importantly, there is
                              > > also a legal understanding that donations, collected at local level,
                              > > belong to ekult HQ, and amounts are uploaded accordingly!
                              > >
                              > > In conclusion, what of any future for ekult â€" there is none â€" it's
                              > > already too late? To my observations what remains are isolated pockets
                              > > of ekult devotees mostly seniors, mostly single females! Grayed-out,
                              > > like inactive pc commands, I note the dynamism and energy, I once
                              > > admired, is long long dead, while larger and ever larger pics of their
                              > > cultic leader casts its shadow over them…
                              > > -Postekcon
                              > >
                              > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                              > > prometheus_973@ wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > Hello Jonathan,
                              > > > Thanks. I don't know what I said,
                              > > > but thanks anyway. Sometimes
                              > > > I think I should write and thank
                              > > > Klemp for being such a boring
                              > > > wannabe who lacks charisma.
                              > > >
                              > > > BTW-Imagine how many more
                              > > > ECKists there would be, now, if
                              > > > Klemp had even close to the same
                              > > > amount of charisma as Twitchell
                              > > > or Gross had.
                              > > >
                              > > > Plus, it seems that Klemp has
                              > > > been in semi-retirement for
                              > > > a number of years now. This
                              > > > semi-seclusion/retirement
                              > > > became more apparent when
                              > > > he stopped traveling to major
                              > > > ECK Seminars. I'm thinking that
                              > > > he made more "cheesy" health
                              > > > excuses to in order to justify
                              > > > his changes in behaviour and
                              > > > not wanting to travel.
                              > > >
                              > > > Remember the time HK talked
                              > > > about eating too much cheese
                              > > > and this had a negative health
                              > > > effect upon him? He probably
                              > > > got constipated! It was stupid
                              > > > on his part, but isn't that called
                              > > > gluttony too and is one of the
                              > > > Five Passions of the Mind. One
                              > > > would think that a Mahanta
                              > > > (although not perfect) would
                              > > > be higher in consciousness.
                              > > >
                              > > > However, Klemp turns even his
                              > > > own lack of consciousness and
                              > > > common sense around and uses
                              > > > his ill health as an excuse. His
                              > > > illnesses have now become the
                              > > > result of taking on more Karma
                              > > > for his chelas and acting as a karmic
                              > > > "holding tank" so that his Chelas
                              > > > and H.I.s can advance in consciousness
                              > > > and, thereby, in their initiations.
                              > > >
                              > > > How's that worked out for ECKists?
                              > > > In Eckankar today there are even
                              > > > more restrictions/requirements
                              > > > for H.I.s to qualify for the next
                              > > > higher initiation and title (i.e. cleric,
                              > > > initiator, ESA, RESA). And, thanks
                              > > > to Klemp, there are no longer
                              > > > Major ECK Seminars in California
                              > > > and Florida in the colder months
                              > > > of Oct. and March-April.
                              > > >
                              > > > BTW- Don't "Holding Tanks" get
                              > > > emptied so that more can be taken
                              > > > in? It's an on-going process/cycle
                              > > > kind of like using that old "Snow
                              > > > Ball Technique" over and over again.
                              > > >
                              > > > Well, this is all a moot point isn't
                              > > > it. Klemp has no powers... he's a
                              > > > fraud. I can see why he seems meek,
                              > > > at times, since he is aware that it's
                              > > > all a game he's playing and that
                              > > > any day now he'll be discovered
                              > > > for being a fraud. That's why he's
                              > > > not letting ECKists know where
                              > > > all the money is going since he's
                              > > > hide enough away to take care
                              > > > of himself just in case. But, what
                              > > > will that take for more ECKists to
                              > > > see through the facade? I don't know...
                              > > > maybe HK dropping over dead or
                              > > > having a stroke or maybe cancer?
                              > > >
                              > > > Don't get me wrong... I'd never
                              > > > wish that on anyone, but it happens
                              > > > everyday to all kinds of people and
                              > > > even to H.I.s. (of course). Yes, H.I.s
                              > > > are not special, and they get cancer
                              > > > too! Thus, Klemp is not exempt
                              > > > from this happening to him. Look
                              > > > at Twitchell... he didn't predict
                              > > > his heart attack and death! But,
                              > > > according to his own EK scripture
                              > > > (as the LEM/Mahanta) he should
                              > > > have known well in advance as
                              > > > to when he would be translating.
                              > > >
                              > > > However, in "Difficulties Of Being
                              > > > The Living ECK Master" Paul was
                              > > > meeting with his inner circle of
                              > > > H.I.s (in a business meeting) on
                              > > > the day of his death. The notes
                              > > > and comments of that meeting
                              > > > are given here. And, PT was making
                              > > > plans for his future with Eckankar
                              > > > in this meeting. Paul gave no indication
                              > > > (just the opposite) of his impending
                              > > > death on that very same night.
                              > > >
                              > > > This is just one more reason as
                              > > > to why this historical ECK book
                              > > > was not republished by Eckankar
                              > > > (Klemp). It's not like "Difficulties"
                              > > > can't be republished/reprinted
                              > > > since Eckankar has its own printing
                              > > > equipment, does the publishing,
                              > > > and owns PT's copyrights. Thus,
                              > > > this is just one more cover-up
                              > > > showing that Eckankar is simply
                              > > > another false teaching/religion
                              > > > that can't keep it's promises in/for
                              > > > this Here and Now.
                              > > >
                              > > > Prometheus
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > Jonathan wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > Prometheus,
                              > > >
                              > > > Thank you for the comments. I found them to be very helpful and
                              > > very healing.
                              > > >
                              > > > Jonathan
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • prometheus_973
                              Hello Postekcon and All, I ve really enjoyed the reading the insights from all of the responses. Yes, I was once a Catholic so I know something about the
                              Message 14 of 22 , Sep 19, 2010
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                                Hello Postekcon and All,
                                I've really enjoyed the reading the insights
                                from all of the responses. Yes, I was once
                                a Catholic so I know something about the
                                Church's sorted past involving indulgences.
                                It seems that Klemp has modeled his version
                                of ECKankar after the Lutheran version of
                                the Catholic Church. After all, it's what he
                                was taught in seminary school so why not
                                go with what's familiar.

                                If Klemp would have just pulled the names
                                of some recommended H.I.s from a hat,
                                BUT those who are Not participating within
                                "service" areas, it would have given the
                                impression (although false) that, perhaps,
                                "inner" qualifications were still valid litmus
                                tests for Initiation. However, I've never
                                seen a 7th Initiate who was not, at least,
                                a cleric, initiator, etc!

                                What ever happened to "The ECK
                                Contemplative Order" or whatever it was
                                called?" I think it's briefly mentioned in
                                "The Holy Fire of ECK" Book One (pg.60?).

                                Prometheus

                                postekcon wrote:
                                Thank you all for responses...

                                My reference to the medieval church and the 'indulgences' issue, i.e. money to
                                church in exchange for remission of sin in the hereafter, was a special point
                                for HK himself, which he will fully understand from his Lutheran upbringing...

                                The indulgences issue was the great trigger point for the Protestant
                                Reformation. The big irony here is LOL; we now see HK and his concocted church
                                repeating history... 'Service' (time/money) to ekult in exchange for the
                                remission of sin/karma!

                                The lem, due to his high initiation level, claims he is god's rep in all
                                universes. So how come, it is only those who 'service' ekult who are on his
                                fast-track to spiritual enlightenment?

                                A question, I know, many ekult devotees ask of themselves! Ekult is a religion
                                where service to all life is recommended as a way of life! So why is it this
                                'service' must be in visible form for ekult, for it to actually count as
                                'service'?
                                -Postekcon
                                p.s. in original post, mlm = multi-level-marketing.



                                Jonathan &

                                etznab@... wrote:
                                >
                                > I could identify with a number of points in
                                > that appraisal. I liked this part especially:
                                >
                                > "BTW- In the business world, when a product
                                > matches the market forces (consciousness)
                                > of the day, it is successful; it is never the
                                > other way round!"
                                >
                                > And about the youth, and consciousness,
                                > the youth of today have easy access to a
                                > lot more information and sources of inform-
                                > ation for research purposes, where most of
                                > the older generations had the library and a
                                > card catalog.
                                >
                                > I'd often thought about Paul Twitchell in the
                                > library, compiling and researching. And now
                                > I ask myself: WHY DID IT EVER STOP?
                                >
                                > Today, with the resources available, people
                                > can not only look at materials that Paul T.
                                > compiled & researched from, but they can
                                > take it further by continuing to compile and
                                > research (not forgetting to cite references &
                                > credit sources, of course). However, how
                                > much does it happen in organized religion?
                                > Because, doesn't it challenge the traditional
                                > existing dogma whenever a person decides
                                > to improve on it? Or, go beyond it? (Not to
                                > mention, expose it, give some history of it
                                > and show where it REALLY came from.)
                                >
                                > What are Eckankar's chances of seeing a
                                > "REFORMATION"? Personally, I think it's
                                > inevitable. The organization will change, or
                                > will become another fossil religion. Both of
                                > these forces are working antagonistic to
                                > one another in the lives of many people to-
                                > day, IMO. There is the traditional religious
                                > dogma and there is the need to change it.
                                > Some want change, and others are afraid
                                > of what that will mean to the old cherished
                                > dogma.
                                >
                                > Etznab
                                >
                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: postekcon
                                > This In Order To Vent
                                >
                                >
                                > EKULT, AN APPRAISAL
                                >
                                > I remember the ekult I joined 1970's. It seemed alive, vibrant, a
                                > movement which seemed to know what it was about and where it was going!
                                > Under the charismatic and artistic leadership of Darwin Gross
                                > membership numbers grew and grew. Because the movement was 'CURRENT'
                                > for the consciousness of those times, new members came with minimal
                                > recruitment effort!
                                >
                                > We were excited. Ekult promised us it had the 'tools' to experience
                                > greater individualism, freedom and spiritual 'unfoldment', and we
                                > believed the hype! We had grown up in the 'Flower Power' era and
                                > listening to The Beatles music! We were interested in TM
                                > (transcendental meditation), we were interested in all things 'eastern'
                                > and wanted to know more. Paul Twitchell too, was in-tune with this
                                > consciousness, he was 'CURRENT' for the times. The mail order education
                                > system he founded, matched those needs. Ignoring all plagiaristic
                                > issues here, the books and discourses he compiled from the works of
                                > other authors satisfied us for several years.
                                >
                                > However consciousness, being fluid, changes, moves on and around and
                                > ekult got left behind! Ekult shot itself in the foot, the day it gave
                                > leadership to Harold Klemp. Unlike Paul Twitchell he has never been
                                > able to tune-in to the consciousness (keep 'current'), produce or even
                                > 'compile' works which are dynamic and relevant for the times.
                                >
                                > BTW- In the business world, when a product matches the market forces
                                > (consciousness) of the day, it is successful; it is never the other way
                                > round!
                                >
                                > You might like to observe the consciousness of youth and those who are
                                > under 30 years of age. They tend to live life to the extreme to the
                                > edge of experience e.g. extreme sports etc. They show NO fear of the
                                > creation of either sin or karma, or of the consequences of either,
                                > whether now or in a hereafter. This is why a karma-based, savior-style
                                > religion like the one HK develops makes no sense to their
                                > consciousness. Even their devoted ekult parents have been unable to
                                > indoctrinate them in ekult ways once they've left the childhood years.
                                > (HK himself included as such a parent, I believe!).
                                >
                                > Ekult is an organization born out of human arrogance! Consider this!
                                > What level of human arrogance is shown, where an earthly organization
                                > claims it has commandeered the very spirit of god (energy of the
                                > universe); claims it can trademark it in earthly law and then proceed
                                > to market it for profit!! This reminds me of a certain medieval
                                > church? It too claimed it had commandeered the way of 'salvation' for
                                > the gullible populace. That medieval church, with its
                                > resa-structure-style network of upwards reporting, soon descended the
                                > slippery slope to the 'Inquisition'. History has a habit of repeating
                                > itself.
                                >
                                > Perhaps if ekult had stayed with its original brief and admitted openly
                                > to the world, it had been founded as a 'reference' point for the best
                                > available philosophies and theories for living life, like a Wikipedia,
                                > then it might have remained 'CURRENT'. If only it had cleaned up its
                                > act, it could have evolved as an altruistic service and been of benefit
                                > to mankind today. Instead, seeing the opportunity for financial gain,
                                > HK and owner/s colluded to formulate yet another dead religion to add
                                > the world's list. The modus operandi reminds me again of that medieval
                                > church which once sold indulgences i.e. money to church in exchange for
                                > remission of sins in the hereafter! Similarly ekult devotees can gain
                                > prominence (get noticed) by spending lots of own time and money in
                                > ekult 'service', and are often rewarded with faster progress through
                                > the 'initiation' process. To put this very simply, in ekult, receipt of
                                > the next initiation signifies the remission of some sin (karma)!
                                >
                                > 'Service' to ekult is always emphasized and hyped as being direct
                                > service to the spirit of god! But Catch22 here as ekult also says the
                                > true godhead is a Being so detached, it has no interest whether mortals
                                > service it or not! What a clever ruse to induce 'service' for ekult
                                > coffers and hide its mlm business model. For those of you who may be
                                > unfamiliar with how ekult sources funding. In addition to church-plate
                                > style donations etc., ekult followers (like mlm affiliates) are
                                > expected to service promotional events and fund from their personal
                                > wallet promotional materials and products. More importantly, there is
                                > also a legal understanding that donations, collected at local level,
                                > belong to ekult HQ, and amounts are uploaded accordingly!
                                >
                                > In conclusion, what of any future for ekult there is none it's
                                > already too late? To my observations what remains are isolated pockets
                                > of ekult devotees mostly seniors, mostly single females! Grayed-out,
                                > like inactive pc commands, I note the dynamism and energy, I once
                                > admired, is long long dead, while larger and ever larger pics of their
                                > cultic leader casts its shadow over them.
                                > -Postekcon
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