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Thee and ye. What is that?

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  • jonathanjohns96
    Promethues wrote: But I was wondering, once again as I did when I was an ECKist, Why does Rebazar speak using words like thee and ye? This Torch Bearer
    Message 1 of 22 , Sep 13, 2010
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      Promethues wrote:

      "But I was wondering, once again
      as I did when I was an ECKist,
      Why does Rebazar speak using
      words like "thee' and "ye?" This
      "Torch Bearer" and former Mahanta
      who is over 500 years old and
      who can travel anywhere physically
      or otherwise and who PT claimed
      trained him apparently stepped in
      as the LEM (for Sudar/Kirpal) and
      handed Twitchell the Rod of ECK
      Power... still speaks using thee
      and ye?"

      JJ - After I stopped laughing at your funny comment, I started thinking. "Isn't this ye and thee stuff actually Old English? And the reason that it sounds Holy in a traditional Christian sort of way is because some of the old versions of the Bible were written in Old English?

      And so I turned to that "bastion of truth." That "torchbearer of all things correct." Not Eckankar, but, Wikipedia:

      Wikipedia - Thou
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou
      "Most modern English speakers encounter "thou" only in the works of Shakespeare, in the works of other medieval and early modern writers, and in the King James Bible.

      So after realizing that in this case it looks like I was correct, I wondered about a few things:

      1. Rebazar is 500 years old. How old is Old English?
      2. Regardless of the answer to #1, how and why did Rebazar learn to speak Old English?

      Wikipedia - Old English
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_english
      "Old English (Englisc, Anglisc, Ænglisc) or Anglo-Saxon[1] is an early form of the English language that was spoken and written by the Anglo-Saxons and their descendants in parts of what are now England and south-eastern Scotland between at least the mid-5th century and the mid-12th century."

      Wikipedia - 5th Century
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_century
      "The 5th century is the period from 401 to 500 in accordance with the Julian calendar in Anno Domini/Common Era."

      Wikipedia - 12th Century
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_century
      "As a means of recording the passage of time, the 12th century is the period from 1101 to 1200 in accordance with the Julian calendar in the Christian/Common Era."

      Rebazar's birth year
      1965-500=1465

      If Rebazar was 35 years old in 1500, that means he was speaking Old English about 350 years after it had died out in England and Scotland.

      Ok, I admit it it. I have no idea what any of this proves...

      - - - - - - - - - - -

      UPDATE: Maybe I do know what it proves. Maybe Twitchell knew that most Americans, being of a Christian background, would associate Old English with the Bible. In other words, with Holy writings or spiritual truth.

      I knew that Twitchell stole some verses from the Bible, but I never thought about this before. The fact that Twitchell may have had Rebazar use the words thee and ye in order to create a spiritual-like persona for Rebazar.

      I'm wondering whether Ford Johnson mentioned this. He must have.

      Search results of "Confessions"

      "old english" - no occurrences
      "king james" - one occurrence (p 117) but not related to a discussion of Twitchell's use of thee and ye.
      "thee" - numerous, but Ford actually uses the word 'thee' in some of his HCS affirmations.

      But Ford is allowed to use thee since he was raised in the United States. Plus, I think that if Ford was questioned, he would acknowledge that he probably got the word "thee" from reading the King James version of the Bible. I don't think Twitchell would acknowledge that Rebazar got the word "thee" from reading the King James version of the Bible, or from somehow being exposed to Old English which was spoken from 450 to 1150.

      Questions for further study.
      1. Did all the Eck masters use thee and ye? Or just Rebazar?
      2. Did these Eck masters speak that way just because they knew Twitchell would feel comfortable with it?
      3. Did any of Paul's actual gurus such as Kirpal Singh or Premananda use thee and ye in their speech?
    • jonathanjohns96
      All, I know that some member of Eckankar is going to say Maybe Rebazar was reading the KIng James version of the Bible. My answer to that is that Eckankar
      Message 2 of 22 , Sep 13, 2010
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        All,

        I know that some member of Eckankar is going to say "Maybe Rebazar was reading the KIng James version of the Bible."

        My answer to that is that Eckankar teaches that all religions came from Ecknakar. That means that Christianity came from Eckankar. So why would Rebazar have been reading the Bible?"

        Oh, OK. Now I get it! How could I have been so stupid! Rebazar Tarz was the person who originated Old English!

        Jonathan


        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96" <jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:
        >
        > Promethues wrote:
        >
        > "But I was wondering, once again
        > as I did when I was an ECKist,
        > Why does Rebazar speak using
        > words like "thee' and "ye?" This
        > "Torch Bearer" and former Mahanta
        > who is over 500 years old and
        > who can travel anywhere physically
        > or otherwise and who PT claimed
        > trained him apparently stepped in
        > as the LEM (for Sudar/Kirpal) and
        > handed Twitchell the Rod of ECK
        > Power... still speaks using thee
        > and ye?"
        >
        > JJ - After I stopped laughing at your funny comment, I started thinking. "Isn't this ye and thee stuff actually Old English? And the reason that it sounds Holy in a traditional Christian sort of way is because some of the old versions of the Bible were written in Old English?
        >
        > And so I turned to that "bastion of truth." That "torchbearer of all things correct." Not Eckankar, but, Wikipedia:
        >
        > Wikipedia - Thou
        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou
        > "Most modern English speakers encounter "thou" only in the works of Shakespeare, in the works of other medieval and early modern writers, and in the King James Bible.
        >
        > So after realizing that in this case it looks like I was correct, I wondered about a few things:
        >
        > 1. Rebazar is 500 years old. How old is Old English?
        > 2. Regardless of the answer to #1, how and why did Rebazar learn to speak Old English?
        >
        > Wikipedia - Old English
        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_english
        > "Old English (Englisc, Anglisc, Ænglisc) or Anglo-Saxon[1] is an early form of the English language that was spoken and written by the Anglo-Saxons and their descendants in parts of what are now England and south-eastern Scotland between at least the mid-5th century and the mid-12th century."
        >
        > Wikipedia - 5th Century
        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_century
        > "The 5th century is the period from 401 to 500 in accordance with the Julian calendar in Anno Domini/Common Era."
        >
        > Wikipedia - 12th Century
        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_century
        > "As a means of recording the passage of time, the 12th century is the period from 1101 to 1200 in accordance with the Julian calendar in the Christian/Common Era."
        >
        > Rebazar's birth year
        > 1965-500=1465
        >
        > If Rebazar was 35 years old in 1500, that means he was speaking Old English about 350 years after it had died out in England and Scotland.
        >
        > Ok, I admit it it. I have no idea what any of this proves...
        >
        > - - - - - - - - - - -
        >
        > UPDATE: Maybe I do know what it proves. Maybe Twitchell knew that most Americans, being of a Christian background, would associate Old English with the Bible. In other words, with Holy writings or spiritual truth.
        >
        > I knew that Twitchell stole some verses from the Bible, but I never thought about this before. The fact that Twitchell may have had Rebazar use the words thee and ye in order to create a spiritual-like persona for Rebazar.
        >
        > I'm wondering whether Ford Johnson mentioned this. He must have.
        >
        > Search results of "Confessions"
        >
        > "old english" - no occurrences
        > "king james" - one occurrence (p 117) but not related to a discussion of Twitchell's use of thee and ye.
        > "thee" - numerous, but Ford actually uses the word 'thee' in some of his HCS affirmations.
        >
        > But Ford is allowed to use thee since he was raised in the United States. Plus, I think that if Ford was questioned, he would acknowledge that he probably got the word "thee" from reading the King James version of the Bible. I don't think Twitchell would acknowledge that Rebazar got the word "thee" from reading the King James version of the Bible, or from somehow being exposed to Old English which was spoken from 450 to 1150.
        >
        > Questions for further study.
        > 1. Did all the Eck masters use thee and ye? Or just Rebazar?
        > 2. Did these Eck masters speak that way just because they knew Twitchell would feel comfortable with it?
        > 3. Did any of Paul's actual gurus such as Kirpal Singh or Premananda use thee and ye in their speech?
        >
      • Drew van Rijk
        Since Rebazar does not exist now, nor did in the past, verily I say unto you he was not reading the bible or creating old english...  LOL ... From:
        Message 3 of 22 , Sep 14, 2010
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          Since Rebazar does not exist now, nor did in the past, verily I say unto you he was not reading the bible or creating old english...  LOL

          --- On Tue, 9/14/10, jonathanjohns96 <jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:

          From: jonathanjohns96 <jonathanjohns96@...>
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Thee and ye. What is that?
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          Received: Tuesday, September 14, 2010, 1:39 AM

           

          All,

          I know that some member of Eckankar is going to say "Maybe Rebazar was reading the KIng James version of the Bible."

          My answer to that is that Eckankar teaches that all religions came from Ecknakar. That means that Christianity came from Eckankar. So why would Rebazar have been reading the Bible?"

          Oh, OK. Now I get it! How could I have been so stupid! Rebazar Tarz was the person who originated Old English!

          Jonathan

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96" <jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:
          >
          > Promethues wrote:
          >
          > "But I was wondering, once again
          > as I did when I was an ECKist,
          > Why does Rebazar speak using
          > words like "thee' and "ye?" This
          > "Torch Bearer" and former Mahanta
          > who is over 500 years old and
          > who can travel anywhere physically
          > or otherwise and who PT claimed
          > trained him apparently stepped in
          > as the LEM (for Sudar/Kirpal) and
          > handed Twitchell the Rod of ECK
          > Power... still speaks using thee
          > and ye?"
          >
          > JJ - After I stopped laughing at your funny comment, I started thinking. "Isn't this ye and thee stuff actually Old English? And the reason that it sounds Holy in a traditional Christian sort of way is because some of the old versions of the Bible were written in Old English?
          >
          > And so I turned to that "bastion of truth." That "torchbearer of all things correct." Not Eckankar, but, Wikipedia:
          >
          > Wikipedia - Thou
          > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou
          > "Most modern English speakers encounter "thou" only in the works of Shakespeare, in the works of other medieval and early modern writers, and in the King James Bible.
          >
          > So after realizing that in this case it looks like I was correct, I wondered about a few things:
          >
          > 1. Rebazar is 500 years old. How old is Old English?
          > 2. Regardless of the answer to #1, how and why did Rebazar learn to speak Old English?
          >
          > Wikipedia - Old English
          > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_english
          > "Old English (Englisc, Anglisc, Ænglisc) or Anglo-Saxon[1] is an early form of the English language that was spoken and written by the Anglo-Saxons and their descendants in parts of what are now England and south-eastern Scotland between at least the mid-5th century and the mid-12th century."
          >
          > Wikipedia - 5th Century
          > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_century
          > "The 5th century is the period from 401 to 500 in accordance with the Julian calendar in Anno Domini/Common Era."
          >
          > Wikipedia - 12th Century
          > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_century
          > "As a means of recording the passage of time, the 12th century is the period from 1101 to 1200 in accordance with the Julian calendar in the Christian/Common Era."
          >
          > Rebazar's birth year
          > 1965-500=1465
          >
          > If Rebazar was 35 years old in 1500, that means he was speaking Old English about 350 years after it had died out in England and Scotland.
          >
          > Ok, I admit it it. I have no idea what any of this proves...
          >
          > - - - - - - - - - - -
          >
          > UPDATE: Maybe I do know what it proves. Maybe Twitchell knew that most Americans, being of a Christian background, would associate Old English with the Bible. In other words, with Holy writings or spiritual truth.
          >
          > I knew that Twitchell stole some verses from the Bible, but I never thought about this before. The fact that Twitchell may have had Rebazar use the words thee and ye in order to create a spiritual-like persona for Rebazar.
          >
          > I'm wondering whether Ford Johnson mentioned this. He must have.
          >
          > Search results of "Confessions"
          >
          > "old english" - no occurrences
          > "king james" - one occurrence (p 117) but not related to a discussion of Twitchell's use of thee and ye.
          > "thee" - numerous, but Ford actually uses the word 'thee' in some of his HCS affirmations.
          >
          > But Ford is allowed to use thee since he was raised in the United States. Plus, I think that if Ford was questioned, he would acknowledge that he probably got the word "thee" from reading the King James version of the Bible. I don't think Twitchell would acknowledge that Rebazar got the word "thee" from reading the King James version of the Bible, or from somehow being exposed to Old English which was spoken from 450 to 1150.
          >
          > Questions for further study.
          > 1. Did all the Eck masters use thee and ye? Or just Rebazar?
          > 2. Did these Eck masters speak that way just because they knew Twitchell would feel comfortable with it?
          > 3. Did any of Paul's actual gurus such as Kirpal Singh or Premananda use thee and ye in their speech?
          >


        • prometheus_973
          Hello Jonathan and All, Thanks for the responses. I d like to make some additional comments below. [P] jonathanjohns wrote: Promethus and all, #2 A few more
          Message 4 of 22 , Sep 14, 2010
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            Hello Jonathan and All,
            Thanks for the responses. I'd like to
            make some additional comments
            below. [P]

            jonathanjohns wrote:

            Promethus and all,

            #2
            A few more comments about Eckankar's curses.

            I'd like to mention something for the benefit of those of you who haven't been
            able to followed all the past discussionss on this message board. I was over at
            a.r.e. (the Google Group alt.religion.eckankar) talking about something and one
            of the Eckists over there said that I was "regurgitating" (their words)
            Prometheus' old theory about..... I don't even remember exactly what the subject
            for discussion was, but it doesn't matter. I very adamantly pointed out to them,
            that, yes, I agree with a lot of what Prometheus says, but I had figured it all
            out long before I read about Prometheus discussing it on this message board. So
            I am not copying Prometheus and Prometheus has never copied me. We both are very
            independently-minded people and it just so happens that we came to many of the
            same conclusions about what was/is going on in Eckankar. I did not even read ET
            or ESA until Dec 17 (the day I quit Eckankar) or Dec 18 in 2008. It was around
            that time; please forgive my bad memory.



            ***
            [P] In past articles I've used the term
            "regurgitate" when describing what
            Klemp does when he gives his talks
            and writes his books. I'm thinking
            the A.R.E. ECKies are "regurgitating"
            the words I've used about their "precious"
            Mahanta.

            Plus, most people will have the same
            thoughts, reach the same conclusions
            and use some of the same words and
            expressions to communicate their ideas.
            However, if you ever listen to an ECKist
            they will sound like an EK Brochure.
            Only the ECKists that are Unauthorized
            to speak for Eckankar and go against
            Klemp's Guidelines and who second
            guess their Mahanta via Internet sites
            will speak outside of the required EK
            speak.
            ***



            And when I started reading Ford Johnson's book (1-3 months before I left
            Eckankar?) I had the exact same experience. As I was reading his book I clearly
            remember when Ford was talking about Eckankar's curses. and I said to myself
            "Yes! Ford saw it too!" It made me feel better for two reasons. First of all,
            Ford is a very intelligent person. Secondly he was a 7th initiate and 29 year
            member of Eckankar so he obviously knew the teachings of Eckankar as well as
            anyone. And so I said to myself "If Ford saw it too, I'm obviously not
            hallucinating or imagining things." My recollection is that Ford said that he
            was late in seeing them. I believe he said he never noticed them in his first 20
            years in Eckankar. I really think the reason I noticed them so early in Eckankar
            is because they struck fear in me at the time I read them.

            So the curses in Eckankar seem to affect some people, but not others.
            Prometheus, I believe that you have said in the past that they didn't affect
            you, or that you even doubted their effectiveness. I think the truth is that
            they affect some people, but not others.


            ***
            [P] Yes, Ford would have 36 years (or so)
            in Eckankar, today, if he had stayed. As
            for the curses... ECKists think that those
            don't apply to them because they're not
            going to be leaving... this was the one true
            "path" that they had been looking for all
            along. Thus, the curses didn't bother them.
            We didn't think about the curses being used
            as a threat or as a scare tactic or as a lower
            plane power tripping tool. It didn't apply
            to us so why worry about it... right? Yet,
            it was exactly like the same crap (threats)
            that had hung over our heads from our
            previous religions which we rejected for
            similar manipulations.
            ***



            #3
            Prometheus said about the Eckankar Worship Service:

            "The EWS is normally scheduled on Sundays to
            compete with the Christian Worship Services
            and for Klemp to fit-in with his fellow religious
            leaders in the Minneapolis community by having
            Sunday Worship Services. This seems or gives
            the appearance of being less cult like too."

            JJ - I'm not sure Klemp is trying to compete with the Christian Worship
            Services, that's awfully optimistic of Eckankar, but I agree fully with the rest
            of your statement.



            ***
            [P] Many people go "church" hunting
            on Sundays. I've done it prior to finding
            Eckankar. And, that's how Glenn Beck
            and his family found LDS.
            ***



            EWS - - > Eckankar looks more like Christianity
            EWS - - > Eckankar looks less cult-like

            But you jogged my memory of something that I had somehow completely forgotten
            about. Awhile ago (pre 1999?) I was looking at a Sunday newspaper at the ads for
            churches and their Sunday church services. In the newspaper, each church of many
            different Christian denominations had their own little ad. You may not believe
            what I just remembered. There was an ad for "Eckankar Church." And it was mixed
            right in with all of the Christian worship services! I was gobsmacked. I said to
            myself "How the heck did that get in there!?" In other words, I thought surely
            that the editor of the newspaper had made a mistake.




            ***
            [P] Our local area, too, (within the state
            Satsang area) would place ads in the paper
            to publicize our Sunday ECK Worship Service
            and the ad would be listed with the other
            churches... that was the whole point. My
            wife and I were the ones who first did this
            type of specific ad. I probably shared this
            info (our success with getting it in) with
            the RESA so that other areas could do so
            as well. This was probably around 1990-
            91. It was really funny how I'd have successes
            with getting Eckankar into areas where
            others had difficulty. I had moved to a
            new state and the local EK area I was in
            wasn't permitted in Libraries (so they said).
            By the time I was done we were doing
            Intros and having Roundtables in three
            local libraries. The Local Director amazed.
            ***


            But as I look back on it now, I realize what really happened. Some Eckist had
            snuck that in there while attempting to pass Eckankar off as "being like
            Christianity." And this was in a very conservative part of the United States. I
            bet the editor(s) at the newspaper just about went through the roof when they
            found out the truth about the "Eckankar Church." That it wasn't a Christian
            Church.

            Oh well. It just proves how far members of Eckankar will go to try to hoodwink
            the public. I'm very glad I remembered this. I remember it very clearly though.
            When I saw the words "Eckankar Church" I was just about screaming at the
            newspaper "How can you call Eckankar a church?" It was if I was insulted. After
            all, how could someone compare a mere church to Eckankar? (my programming as an
            Eckist).




            ***
            [P] True. We'd pass ourselves off as an
            alternative religion that recognized the
            validity of all other religions. Of course
            that wasn't really true but it sounded
            good at the time and in the moment.
            The real truth of the matter is that all
            other religions are seen by Eckankar
            as KAL (Satan, Devil) based and as 2nd
            or 4th Plane. It always made me wonder
            why PT and Klemp skipped the 3rd (Causal)
            Plane.
            ***




            I was so naive back then. This was before I had started to notice the
            Christianization of Eckankar. The Chistianization was there, but I just wasn't
            seeing it for what it was.

            #6
            Prometheus wrote:

            "H.I.s, supposedly, are more advanced (via
            initiation) than the 4th Plane God that ALL
            non-ECKists on the planet worships!"

            Right again, Prometheus. And you mentioned something very important that I
            didn't think of in my previous comments on this topic. And it is VERY applicable
            to me. That is, I had extremely high expectations of these people. After all,
            wasn't I being taught that Eckankar is the highest religion of them all? And
            that all other religions in the World have sprung out of Eckankar? My gosh! Then
            these people in Eckankar who were the "higher initiates" should be super
            amazing, super great, and super awesome! So yes, my expectations were very very
            high.

            And then when these people didn't just fall below my expectations, but fell WAY
            below, it was hard on me. And I seriously started to wonder "Are these people
            really as high as they are supposed to be? As high I as I think they are?" So it
            did affect me. I think that, consistent with my personality of being
            disappointed with others, I just withdrew from the whole thing and lived in my
            own world of Twitchell's books. I'll admit that I did enjoy Klemp's tapes too (I
            guess I shouldn't admit that here). But most of his books were boring, and were
            in many cases just "reprints" of the exact same stories in his tapes.




            ***
            [P] I too had H.I.s upon pedestals. One
            was an early mentor. Later, after I left,
            I shared Ford's "Confessions" with this
            person and they too left EK. I still had
            them upon a pedestal, but later that too
            ended. At one time I had Ford upon a
            pedestal for awhile. Really, these people
            are as flawed as the rest of us. Klemp
            is no different and, as I discovered, HK's
            one of the most flawed and screwed up
            people that I've ever met... he just doesn't
            reveal it as much if you're not looking
            or are brainwashed. Besides, he's always
            "on stage" and acting out a role. At the
            Eden Prairie Mall etc. he's under scrutiny
            by lurking ECKists but he knows this and
            is, thus, on his best behaviour with the
            public and with Joan.
            ***



            So, Prometheus, I actually admire you for being actively involved in Eckankar
            because I couldn't handle it. So your experiences led to a very different
            experience with Eckankar. I always have been a loner, and after having only a
            few bad interactions with members of Eckankar, I withdrew into my own world
            which also means that I pretty much stopped going to Eckankar meetings. This all
            happened very early in my interaction with Eckankar: probably mid 1980s (I
            joined in 1979).




            ***
            [P] BTW- Don't admire me for this:
            I'd always try to bring the "loners"
            into the fold (when they dropped in)
            by welcoming them at the EWS and
            chat with them after the service. I
            would instruct others to do so, as well,
            instead of chatting with their EK friends.
            I'd invite them to go to lunch with us,
            too, and try to talk them and others
            into doing some volunteer work of
            their choosing and let them know where
            we needed help. And, I'd give them
            a volunteer position "title" and place
            them under another co-ordinator.
            Our small center had about 30 EKists
            with volunteer positions.
            ***


            Toward the end of my time in Eckankar, I started attending a lot more EWSs. I
            think I was in a situation where I wanted to give Eckankar a chance to prove
            itself to me. I was getting very cynical about the whole thing by now. But the
            more I went to ESWs, and the more I interacted with Eckists, the more I got a
            really bad impression of them. I mean, they all had their good qualities too.
            But what bothered me was the blind dedication that these people had toward
            Eckankar, and how they would defend Eckankar no matter what. It was very
            disturbing to me.

            And so I finally did decide that there just too many negatives.



            ***
            [P] I'd always sympathize and/or
            empathize with ECKists having
            problems with the dogma, or with
            H.I.s, and try to get them back "on
            track." Sometimes I wasn't able to
            and just said to them, "Let go and
            let God and do what feels right for
            you." That suggestion would catch
            them off-guard. They couldn't believe
            that I wasn't saying more B.S. to
            promote Eckankar or to alleviate
            their concerns. But, If it doesn't
            feel right then there's a reason
            for that... sometimes it's called
            intuition... which is Soul speaking
            to self. It just takes some of us
            longer to listen or understand
            what Soul (we) are saying to self
            (mind).
            ***
          • prometheus_973
            Hello Jonathan and All, You ve made some good points. It does seem odd that a 500 year old Tibetan Lama (Rebazar) would speak Old English. It s probably
            Message 5 of 22 , Sep 14, 2010
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              Hello Jonathan and All,
              You've made some good points.
              It does seem odd that a 500
              year old Tibetan Lama (Rebazar)
              would speak Old English. It's
              probably because Twitchell
              used the King James version
              of the Bible for references.
              I always thought it was odd
              that Klemp, too, uses the
              more inaccurate King James
              version when giving Bible quotes.

              Prometheus

              jonathanjohns wrote:
              romethues wrote:

              "But I was wondering, once again
              as I did when I was an ECKist,
              Why does Rebazar speak using
              words like "thee' and "ye?" This
              "Torch Bearer" and former Mahanta
              who is over 500 years old and
              who can travel anywhere physically
              or otherwise and who PT claimed
              trained him apparently stepped in
              as the LEM (for Sudar/Kirpal) and
              handed Twitchell the Rod of ECK
              Power... still speaks using thee
              and ye?"

              JJ - After I stopped laughing at your funny comment, I started thinking. "Isn't
              this ye and thee stuff actually Old English? And the reason that it sounds Holy
              in a traditional Christian sort of way is because some of the old versions of
              the Bible were written in Old English?

              And so I turned to that "bastion of truth." That "torchbearer of all things
              correct." Not Eckankar, but, Wikipedia:

              Wikipedia - Thou
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou
              "Most modern English speakers encounter "thou" only in the works of Shakespeare,
              in the works of other medieval and early modern writers, and in the King James
              Bible.

              So after realizing that in this case it looks like I was correct, I wondered
              about a few things:

              1. Rebazar is 500 years old. How old is Old English?
              2. Regardless of the answer to #1, how and why did Rebazar learn to speak Old
              English?

              Wikipedia - Old English
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_english
              "Old English (Englisc, Anglisc, Ænglisc) or Anglo-Saxon[1] is an early form of
              the English language that was spoken and written by the Anglo-Saxons and their
              descendants in parts of what are now England and south-eastern Scotland between
              at least the mid-5th century and the mid-12th century."

              Wikipedia - 5th Century
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_century
              "The 5th century is the period from 401 to 500 in accordance with the Julian
              calendar in Anno Domini/Common Era."

              Wikipedia - 12th Century
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_century
              "As a means of recording the passage of time, the 12th century is the period
              from 1101 to 1200 in accordance with the Julian calendar in the Christian/Common
              Era."

              Rebazar's birth year
              1965-500=1465

              If Rebazar was 35 years old in 1500, that means he was speaking Old English
              about 350 years after it had died out in England and Scotland.

              Ok, I admit it it. I have no idea what any of this proves...

              - - - - - - - - - - -

              UPDATE: Maybe I do know what it proves. Maybe Twitchell knew that most
              Americans, being of a Christian background, would associate Old English with the
              Bible. In other words, with Holy writings or spiritual truth.

              I knew that Twitchell stole some verses from the Bible, but I never thought
              about this before. The fact that Twitchell may have had Rebazar use the words
              thee and ye in order to create a spiritual-like persona for Rebazar.

              I'm wondering whether Ford Johnson mentioned this. He must have.

              Search results of "Confessions"

              "old english" - no occurrences
              "king james" - one occurrence (p 117) but not related to a discussion of
              Twitchell's use of thee and ye.
              "thee" - numerous, but Ford actually uses the word 'thee' in some of his HCS
              affirmations.

              But Ford is allowed to use thee since he was raised in the United States. Plus,
              I think that if Ford was questioned, he would acknowledge that he probably got
              the word "thee" from reading the King James version of the Bible. I don't think
              Twitchell would acknowledge that Rebazar got the word "thee" from reading the
              King James version of the Bible, or from somehow being exposed to Old English
              which was spoken from 450 to 1150.

              Questions for further study.
              1. Did all the Eck masters use thee and ye? Or just Rebazar?
              2. Did these Eck masters speak that way just because they knew Twitchell would
              feel comfortable with it?
              3. Did any of Paul's actual gurus such as Kirpal Singh or Premananda use thee
              and ye in their speech?
            • prometheus_973
              Hello Drew and All, Thanks for the perspective. Of course Rebazar is fictitious, but Twitch needed someone living (a LEM fill-in, supposedly) to initiate him
              Message 6 of 22 , Sep 14, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                Hello Drew and All,
                Thanks for the perspective.
                Of course Rebazar is fictitious,
                but Twitch needed someone
                "living" (a LEM fill-in, supposedly)
                to initiate him as LEM since
                he killed off Sudar/Kirpal.

                This EK Master lineage thing
                is somewhat of a Catch-22
                isn't it? On one hand these
                characters have been living,
                supposedly, 500-60,000 years
                in the same physical body.
                However, where are they?
                They live in PHYSICAL BODIES,
                or so Eckankar claims, and
                are nowhere to be found.
                The Physical is not an invisible
                Plane, but these "Masters"
                are invisible... and yet work
                under Klemp (the mahanta).
                So, why doesn't Klemp have
                them give talks at EK Seminars
                ... ever!

                On the other hand one has
                to be "special" in order to
                see and talk with these undead
                ECK Masters. But, then again,
                these ECKists claiming to have
                had visitations with RT, et al,
                in their dreams, etc., still need
                approval from Klemp in order
                to share these "stories."

                Otherwise, without approval,
                from Klemp these claims are
                unsubstantiated and invalid
                since these "EK Masters" might
                just be the KAL playing tricks
                on chelas and H.I.s. One is
                supposed to "HU" in order to
                verify that this is a True ECK
                Master... like Graham claimed.
                But we all know how that turned
                out.

                Then again, this validating
                procedure is also used to
                prevent more and more
                delusional claims and
                threats to Klemp. Plus,
                thereare a lot of psychologically
                impaired, dysfunctional,
                and psychotic ECKists out
                there in la la land. Thus,
                Klemp has to employ stop-
                gap measures, dogma,
                and rules to maintain order
                and to keep them happy
                and standing in line for
                their turn... or so they
                imagine.

                Prometheus

                Drew van Rijk wrote:
                >
                > Since Rebazar does not exist now, nor did in the past, verily I say unto you he was not reading the bible or creating old english...  LOL
                >
                jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:
                >
                > From: jonathanjohns96 <jonathanjohns96@...>
                > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Thee and ye. What is that?
                > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                > Received: Tuesday, September 14, 2010, 1:39 AM
                >
                >All,
                >
                > I know that some member of Eckankar is going to say "Maybe Rebazar was reading the KIng James version of the Bible."
                >
                >
                >
                > My answer to that is that Eckankar teaches that all religions came from Ecknakar. That means that Christianity came from Eckankar. So why would Rebazar have been reading the Bible?"
                >
                >
                >
                > Oh, OK. Now I get it! How could I have been so stupid! Rebazar Tarz was the person who originated Old English!
                >
                >
                >
                > Jonathan
                >
                >
                >
                jonathanjohns96@> wrote:
                >
                > >
                >
                > > Promethues wrote:
                >
                > >
                >
                > > "But I was wondering, once again
                >
                > > as I did when I was an ECKist,
                >
                > > Why does Rebazar speak using
                >
                > > words like "thee' and "ye?" This
                >
                > > "Torch Bearer" and former Mahanta
                >
                > > who is over 500 years old and
                >
                > > who can travel anywhere physically
                >
                > > or otherwise and who PT claimed
                >
                > > trained him apparently stepped in
                >
                > > as the LEM (for Sudar/Kirpal) and
                >
                > > handed Twitchell the Rod of ECK
                >
                > > Power... still speaks using thee
                >
                > > and ye?"
                >
                > >
                >
                > > JJ - After I stopped laughing at your funny comment, I started thinking. "Isn't this ye and thee stuff actually Old English? And the reason that it sounds Holy in a traditional Christian sort of way is because some of the old versions of the Bible were written in Old English?
                >
                > >
                >
                > > And so I turned to that "bastion of truth." That "torchbearer of all things correct." Not Eckankar, but, Wikipedia:
                >
                > >
                >
                > > Wikipedia - Thou
                >
                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou
                >
                > > "Most modern English speakers encounter "thou" only in the works of Shakespeare, in the works of other medieval and early modern writers, and in the King James Bible.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > So after realizing that in this case it looks like I was correct, I wondered about a few things:
                >
                > >
                >
                > > 1. Rebazar is 500 years old. How old is Old English?
                >
                > > 2. Regardless of the answer to #1, how and why did Rebazar learn to speak Old English?
                >
                > >
                >
                > > Wikipedia - Old English
                >
                > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_english
                >
                > > "Old English (Englisc, Anglisc, Ænglisc) or Anglo-Saxon[1] is an early form of the English language that was spoken and written by the Anglo-Saxons and their descendants in parts of what are now England and south-eastern Scotland between at least the mid-5th century and the mid-12th century."
                >
                > >
                >
                > > Wikipedia - 5th Century
                >
                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_century
                >
                > > "The 5th century is the period from 401 to 500 in accordance with the Julian calendar in Anno Domini/Common Era."
                >
                > >
                >
                > > Wikipedia - 12th Century
                >
                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_century
                >
                > > "As a means of recording the passage of time, the 12th century is the period from 1101 to 1200 in accordance with the Julian calendar in the Christian/Common Era."
                >
                > >
                >
                > > Rebazar's birth year
                >
                > > 1965-500=1465
                >
                > >
                >
                > > If Rebazar was 35 years old in 1500, that means he was speaking Old English about 350 years after it had died out in England and Scotland.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > Ok, I admit it it. I have no idea what any of this proves...
                >
                > >
                >
                > > - - - - - - - - - - -
                >
                > >
                >
                > > UPDATE: Maybe I do know what it proves. Maybe Twitchell knew that most Americans, being of a Christian background, would associate Old English with the Bible. In other words, with Holy writings or spiritual truth.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > I knew that Twitchell stole some verses from the Bible, but I never thought about this before. The fact that Twitchell may have had Rebazar use the words thee and ye in order to create a spiritual-like persona for Rebazar.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > I'm wondering whether Ford Johnson mentioned this. He must have.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > Search results of "Confessions"
                >
                > >
                >
                > > "old english" - no occurrences
                >
                > > "king james" - one occurrence (p 117) but not related to a discussion of Twitchell's use of thee and ye.
                >
                > > "thee" - numerous, but Ford actually uses the word 'thee' in some of his HCS affirmations.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > But Ford is allowed to use thee since he was raised in the United States. Plus, I think that if Ford was questioned, he would acknowledge that he probably got the word "thee" from reading the King James version of the Bible. I don't think Twitchell would acknowledge that Rebazar got the word "thee" from reading the King James version of the Bible, or from somehow being exposed to Old English which was spoken from 450 to 1150.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > Questions for further study.
                >
                > > 1. Did all the Eck masters use thee and ye? Or just Rebazar?
                >
                > > 2. Did these Eck masters speak that way just because they knew Twitchell would feel comfortable with it?
                >
                > > 3. Did any of Paul's actual gurus such as Kirpal Singh or Premananda use thee and ye in their speech?
                >
                > >
                >
              • jonathanjohns96
                Prometheus, Thank you for the comments. I found them to be very helpful and very healing. Jonathan
                Message 7 of 22 , Sep 15, 2010
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                  Prometheus,

                  Thank you for the comments. I found them to be very helpful and very healing.

                  Jonathan
                • prometheus_973
                  Hello Jonathan, Thanks. I don t know what I said, but thanks anyway. Sometimes I think I should write and thank Klemp for being such a boring wannabe who lacks
                  Message 8 of 22 , Sep 16, 2010
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                    Hello Jonathan,
                    Thanks. I don't know what I said,
                    but thanks anyway. Sometimes
                    I think I should write and thank
                    Klemp for being such a boring
                    wannabe who lacks charisma.

                    BTW-Imagine how many more
                    ECKists there would be, now, if
                    Klemp had even close to the same
                    amount of charisma as Twitchell
                    or Gross had.

                    Plus, it seems that Klemp has
                    been in semi-retirement for
                    a number of years now. This
                    semi-seclusion/retirement
                    became more apparent when
                    he stopped traveling to major
                    ECK Seminars. I'm thinking that
                    he made more "cheesy" health
                    excuses to in order to justify
                    his changes in behaviour and
                    not wanting to travel.

                    Remember the time HK talked
                    about eating too much cheese
                    and this had a negative health
                    effect upon him? He probably
                    got constipated! It was stupid
                    on his part, but isn't that called
                    gluttony too and is one of the
                    Five Passions of the Mind. One
                    would think that a Mahanta
                    (although not perfect) would
                    be higher in consciousness.

                    However, Klemp turns even his
                    own lack of consciousness and
                    common sense around and uses
                    his ill health as an excuse. His
                    illnesses have now become the
                    result of taking on more Karma
                    for his chelas and acting as a karmic
                    "holding tank" so that his Chelas
                    and H.I.s can advance in consciousness
                    and, thereby, in their initiations.

                    How's that worked out for ECKists?
                    In Eckankar today there are even
                    more restrictions/requirements
                    for H.I.s to qualify for the next
                    higher initiation and title (i.e. cleric,
                    initiator, ESA, RESA). And, thanks
                    to Klemp, there are no longer
                    Major ECK Seminars in California
                    and Florida in the colder months
                    of Oct. and March-April.

                    BTW- Don't "Holding Tanks" get
                    emptied so that more can be taken
                    in? It's an on-going process/cycle
                    kind of like using that old "Snow
                    Ball Technique" over and over again.

                    Well, this is all a moot point isn't
                    it. Klemp has no powers... he's a
                    fraud. I can see why he seems meek,
                    at times, since he is aware that it's
                    all a game he's playing and that
                    any day now he'll be discovered
                    for being a fraud. That's why he's
                    not letting ECKists know where
                    all the money is going since he's
                    hide enough away to take care
                    of himself just in case. But, what
                    will that take for more ECKists to
                    see through the facade? I don't know...
                    maybe HK dropping over dead or
                    having a stroke or maybe cancer?

                    Don't get me wrong... I'd never
                    wish that on anyone, but it happens
                    everyday to all kinds of people and
                    even to H.I.s. (of course). Yes, H.I.s
                    are not special, and they get cancer
                    too! Thus, Klemp is not exempt
                    from this happening to him. Look
                    at Twitchell... he didn't predict
                    his heart attack and death! But,
                    according to his own EK scripture
                    (as the LEM/Mahanta) he should
                    have known well in advance as
                    to when he would be translating.

                    However, in "Difficulties Of Being
                    The Living ECK Master" Paul was
                    meeting with his inner circle of
                    H.I.s (in a business meeting) on
                    the day of his death. The notes
                    and comments of that meeting
                    are given here. And, PT was making
                    plans for his future with Eckankar
                    in this meeting. Paul gave no indication
                    (just the opposite) of his impending
                    death on that very same night.

                    This is just one more reason as
                    to why this historical ECK book
                    was not republished by Eckankar
                    (Klemp). It's not like "Difficulties"
                    can't be republished/reprinted
                    since Eckankar has its own printing
                    equipment, does the publishing,
                    and owns PT's copyrights. Thus,
                    this is just one more cover-up
                    showing that Eckankar is simply
                    another false teaching/religion
                    that can't keep it's promises in/for
                    this Here and Now.

                    Prometheus





                    Jonathan wrote:

                    Prometheus,

                    Thank you for the comments. I found them to be very helpful and very healing.

                    Jonathan
                  • postekcon
                    EKULT, AN APPRAISAL I remember the ekult I joined 1970 s. It seemed alive, vibrant, a movement which seemed to know what it was about and where it was going!
                    Message 9 of 22 , Sep 17, 2010
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                      EKULT, AN APPRAISAL

                      I remember the ekult I joined 1970's. It seemed alive, vibrant, a movement which seemed to know what it was about and where it was going! Under the charismatic and artistic leadership of Darwin Gross membership numbers grew and grew. Because the movement was 'CURRENT' for the consciousness of those times, new members came with minimal recruitment effort!

                      We were excited. Ekult promised us it had the 'tools' to experience greater individualism, freedom and spiritual 'unfoldment', and we believed the hype! We had grown up in the 'Flower Power' era and listening to The Beatles music! We were interested in TM (transcendental meditation), we were interested in all things 'eastern' and wanted to know more. Paul Twitchell too, was in-tune with this consciousness, he was 'CURRENT' for the times. The mail order education system he founded, matched those needs. Ignoring all plagiaristic issues here, the books and discourses he compiled from the works of other authors satisfied us for several years.

                      However consciousness, being fluid, changes, moves on and around and ekult got left behind! Ekult shot itself in the foot, the day it gave leadership to Harold Klemp. Unlike Paul Twitchell he has never been able to tune-in to the consciousness (keep 'current'), produce or even 'compile' works which are dynamic and relevant for the times.

                      BTW- In the business world, when a product matches the market forces (consciousness) of the day, it is successful; it is never the other way round!

                      You might like to observe the consciousness of youth and those who are under 30 years of age. They tend to live life to the extreme to the edge of experience e.g. extreme sports etc. They show NO fear of the creation of either sin or karma, or of the consequences of either, whether now or in a hereafter. This is why a karma-based, savior-style religion like the one HK develops makes no sense to their consciousness. Even their devoted ekult parents have been unable to indoctrinate them in ekult ways once they've left the childhood years. (HK himself included as such a parent, I believe!).

                      Ekult is an organization born out of human arrogance! Consider this! What level of human arrogance is shown, where an earthly organization claims it has commandeered the very spirit of god (energy of the universe); claims it can trademark it in earthly law and then proceed to market it for profit!! This reminds me of a certain medieval church? It too claimed it had commandeered the way of 'salvation' for the gullible populace. That medieval church, with its resa-structure-style network of upwards reporting, soon descended the slippery slope to the 'Inquisition'. History has a habit of repeating itself…

                      Perhaps if ekult had stayed with its original brief and admitted openly to the world, it had been founded as a 'reference' point for the best available philosophies and theories for living life, like a Wikipedia, then it might have remained 'CURRENT'. If only it had cleaned up its act, it could have evolved as an altruistic service and been of benefit to mankind today. Instead, seeing the opportunity for financial gain, HK and owner/s colluded to formulate yet another dead religion to add the world's list. The modus operandi reminds me again of that medieval church which once sold indulgences i.e. money to church in exchange for remission of sins in the hereafter! Similarly ekult devotees can gain prominence (get noticed) by spending lots of own time and money in ekult 'service', and are often rewarded with faster progress through the 'initiation' process. To put this very simply, in ekult, receipt of the next initiation signifies the remission of some sin (karma)!

                      'Service' to ekult is always emphasized and hyped as being direct service to the spirit of god! But Catch22 here as ekult also says the true godhead is a Being so detached, it has no interest whether mortals service it or not! What a clever ruse to induce 'service' for ekult coffers and hide its mlm business model. For those of you who may be unfamiliar with how ekult sources funding. In addition to church-plate style donations etc., ekult followers (like mlm affiliates) are expected to service promotional events and fund from their personal wallet promotional materials and products. More importantly, there is also a legal understanding that donations, collected at local level, belong to ekult HQ, and amounts are uploaded accordingly!

                      In conclusion, what of any future for ekult – there is none – it's already too late? To my observations what remains are isolated pockets of ekult devotees mostly seniors, mostly single females! Grayed-out, like inactive pc commands, I note the dynamism and energy, I once admired, is long long dead, while larger and ever larger pics of their cultic leader casts its shadow over them…
                      -Postekcon



                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hello Jonathan,
                      > Thanks. I don't know what I said,
                      > but thanks anyway. Sometimes
                      > I think I should write and thank
                      > Klemp for being such a boring
                      > wannabe who lacks charisma.
                      >
                      > BTW-Imagine how many more
                      > ECKists there would be, now, if
                      > Klemp had even close to the same
                      > amount of charisma as Twitchell
                      > or Gross had.
                      >
                      > Plus, it seems that Klemp has
                      > been in semi-retirement for
                      > a number of years now. This
                      > semi-seclusion/retirement
                      > became more apparent when
                      > he stopped traveling to major
                      > ECK Seminars. I'm thinking that
                      > he made more "cheesy" health
                      > excuses to in order to justify
                      > his changes in behaviour and
                      > not wanting to travel.
                      >
                      > Remember the time HK talked
                      > about eating too much cheese
                      > and this had a negative health
                      > effect upon him? He probably
                      > got constipated! It was stupid
                      > on his part, but isn't that called
                      > gluttony too and is one of the
                      > Five Passions of the Mind. One
                      > would think that a Mahanta
                      > (although not perfect) would
                      > be higher in consciousness.
                      >
                      > However, Klemp turns even his
                      > own lack of consciousness and
                      > common sense around and uses
                      > his ill health as an excuse. His
                      > illnesses have now become the
                      > result of taking on more Karma
                      > for his chelas and acting as a karmic
                      > "holding tank" so that his Chelas
                      > and H.I.s can advance in consciousness
                      > and, thereby, in their initiations.
                      >
                      > How's that worked out for ECKists?
                      > In Eckankar today there are even
                      > more restrictions/requirements
                      > for H.I.s to qualify for the next
                      > higher initiation and title (i.e. cleric,
                      > initiator, ESA, RESA). And, thanks
                      > to Klemp, there are no longer
                      > Major ECK Seminars in California
                      > and Florida in the colder months
                      > of Oct. and March-April.
                      >
                      > BTW- Don't "Holding Tanks" get
                      > emptied so that more can be taken
                      > in? It's an on-going process/cycle
                      > kind of like using that old "Snow
                      > Ball Technique" over and over again.
                      >
                      > Well, this is all a moot point isn't
                      > it. Klemp has no powers... he's a
                      > fraud. I can see why he seems meek,
                      > at times, since he is aware that it's
                      > all a game he's playing and that
                      > any day now he'll be discovered
                      > for being a fraud. That's why he's
                      > not letting ECKists know where
                      > all the money is going since he's
                      > hide enough away to take care
                      > of himself just in case. But, what
                      > will that take for more ECKists to
                      > see through the facade? I don't know...
                      > maybe HK dropping over dead or
                      > having a stroke or maybe cancer?
                      >
                      > Don't get me wrong... I'd never
                      > wish that on anyone, but it happens
                      > everyday to all kinds of people and
                      > even to H.I.s. (of course). Yes, H.I.s
                      > are not special, and they get cancer
                      > too! Thus, Klemp is not exempt
                      > from this happening to him. Look
                      > at Twitchell... he didn't predict
                      > his heart attack and death! But,
                      > according to his own EK scripture
                      > (as the LEM/Mahanta) he should
                      > have known well in advance as
                      > to when he would be translating.
                      >
                      > However, in "Difficulties Of Being
                      > The Living ECK Master" Paul was
                      > meeting with his inner circle of
                      > H.I.s (in a business meeting) on
                      > the day of his death. The notes
                      > and comments of that meeting
                      > are given here. And, PT was making
                      > plans for his future with Eckankar
                      > in this meeting. Paul gave no indication
                      > (just the opposite) of his impending
                      > death on that very same night.
                      >
                      > This is just one more reason as
                      > to why this historical ECK book
                      > was not republished by Eckankar
                      > (Klemp). It's not like "Difficulties"
                      > can't be republished/reprinted
                      > since Eckankar has its own printing
                      > equipment, does the publishing,
                      > and owns PT's copyrights. Thus,
                      > this is just one more cover-up
                      > showing that Eckankar is simply
                      > another false teaching/religion
                      > that can't keep it's promises in/for
                      > this Here and Now.
                      >
                      > Prometheus
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Jonathan wrote:
                      >
                      > Prometheus,
                      >
                      > Thank you for the comments. I found them to be very helpful and very healing.
                      >
                      > Jonathan
                      >
                    • jonathanjohns96
                      JJ - Please note. I only pulled forward postekcon s message. I m going to comment on each paragraph. ... JJ - I joined in 1979, and I can confirm that your
                      Message 10 of 22 , Sep 17, 2010
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                        JJ - Please note. I only pulled forward postekcon's message. I'm going to comment on each paragraph.


                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "postekcon" <postekcon@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > EKULT, AN APPRAISAL
                        >
                        > postekcon > I remember the ekult I joined 1970's. It seemed alive, vibrant, a movement which seemed to know what it was about and where it was going! Under the charismatic and artistic leadership of Darwin Gross membership numbers grew and grew. Because the movement was 'CURRENT' for the consciousness of those times, new members came with minimal recruitment effort!
                        >

                        JJ - I joined in 1979, and I can confirm that your description fits Eckankar very well for the 1979 time frame. You really made a very nice description here. I always thought there was a big difference between Eckankar when I joined in 1979 and Eckankar after Klemp had been in charge for awhile. Your description of Eckankar in the 1970s is beautiful.

                        > postekcon > We were excited. Ekult promised us it had the 'tools' to experience greater individualism, freedom and spiritual 'unfoldment', and we believed the hype! We had grown up in the 'Flower Power' era and listening to The Beatles music! We were interested in TM (transcendental meditation), we were interested in all things 'eastern' and wanted to know more. Paul Twitchell too, was in-tune with this consciousness, he was 'CURRENT' for the times. The mail order education system he founded, matched those needs. Ignoring all plagiaristic issues here, the books and discourses he compiled from the works of other authors satisfied us for several years.

                        JJ - Another beautiful description of Eckankar in the 1970s under Gross. I agree completely with your description and comments. Back when I joined in 1979, being interested in "eastern traditions" was OK, even well thought of in Eckankar and in many other parts of society as well. Then under Klemp, he got the "bright" [<-- sarcasm] idea that this was keeping members away. So he steered Eckankar in the direction of imitating Christianity as a way of increasing the membership. Experience has shown that this was a miserable failure in terms of bringing members into Eckankar. After all, other than saying that the HU is a prayer, the underlying teachings are still like the Eastern religions which Eckankar copied (Sant Mant, etc.).

                        >
                        > postekcon > However consciousness, being fluid, changes, moves on and around and ekult got left behind! Ekult shot itself in the foot, the day it gave leadership to Harold Klemp. Unlike Paul Twitchell he has never been able to tune-in to the consciousness (keep 'current'), produce or even 'compile' works which are dynamic and relevant for the times.
                        >

                        JJ - I agree 100% with your statement that "Ekult shot itself in the foot, the day it gave leadership to Harold Klemp." In fact, I had the same thought a few days ago. Even the same metaphor! Your view that it had to do with Klemp's inability to tune into the consciousness of the times is what I disagree with. I don't think Klemp was trying to that in any genuine way. He was only trying to tune into the consciousness of the times by asking the question "How can we get new members into Eckankar?" The answer he came up with was "Make Eckankar look like Christianity on the surface." I think Eckankar should have been honest and true to its roots and promoted itself for what it is: a copy of Sant Mant, etc., which has been modified for Westerners. Instead, Klemp turned Eckankar into something with a thin veneer of Christianity, but with the same basic Eastern teachings underneath (if you look hard enough), but now emphasizing the use of dreams for spiritual unfoldment.

                        > postekcon > BTW- In the business world, when a product matches the market forces (consciousness) of the day, it is successful; it is never the other way round!
                        >
                        > postekcon > You might like to observe the consciousness of youth and those who are under 30 years of age. They tend to live life to the extreme to the edge of experience e.g. extreme sports etc. They show NO fear of the creation of either sin or karma, or of the consequences of either, whether now or in a hereafter. This is why a karma-based, savior-style religion like the one HK develops makes no sense to their consciousness. Even their devoted ekult parents have been unable to indoctrinate them in ekult ways once they've left the childhood years. (HK himself included as such a parent, I believe!).
                        >

                        JJ - ECKANKAR IMITATED CHRISTIANITY. What you say about the under 30 crowd is very true. But that same group of people joined Eckankar like crazy under Gross in the 1970s. Eckankar, as it was originally set up by Twitchell, and maintained by Gross, is never going to be for everyone. It is always going to be for a small minority of people. I think Eckankar's failings in recruitment since 1990 is due to the fact that instead of being true to themselves, they started imitating everyone else. If you have a unique product, why would you ruin your business by starting to imitate everyone else? Eckankar hired a Madison Avenue firm to analyze Eckankar. Klemp spoke about it in one of his talks. Klemp joked that they recommended that Eckankar send Rebazar on a tour around the United States. I think what really happened, is that this report told Eckankar that the Eastern words and concepts were keeping new members away because Eckankar's pool of possible new members is basically people who come from a Christian background, regardless of whether they practice it seriously or not.

                        JJ - ECKANKAR IS A PASSIVE APPROACH TO SPIRITUAL UNFOLDMENT. But the most important issue here may be because Eckankar is a very passive approach (this policy is actually consistent with its Eastern predecessors). And most young people today are not into being passive. Quite the opposite! Under Klemp, Eckankar started emphasizing the use of dreams for spiritual unfoldment. Everything else in Eckankar took a back seat to this approach. And Eckankar today still emphasizes surrendering to the master but much more than Twitchell and Gross did. Again, something that is VERY passive. By the time I left Eckankar in 2008 I was sick of reading Klemp's constant requests in the Mystic World that people love him, etc or they would spiritually hold themselves back. This is NOT what young people today are interested in. They are interested in taking charge and actively pursuing spiritual unfoldment. NOT following the passive approaches put forth by Eckankar. If Eckankar is having any success at all it is because it somehow manages to brainwash some people into thinking that Eckankar's approach is active. But as we all know, it is actually sending people in a direction that keeps them slaves to Eckankar by keeping them in a passive mode of functioning: (1) using dreams for spiritual unfoldment, and (2) relying on a master whom you surrender yourself to.

                        JJ - A quasi-Christian-underlying-Eastern religion emphasizing passive techniques such as dreams for spiritual unfoldment, and requiring people to "surrender to a master" may not be matching the consciousness of today. It just seems that fewer and fewr Westerners are falling for this crap.

                        > postekcon > Ekult is an organization born out of human arrogance! Consider this! What level of human arrogance is shown, where an earthly organization claims it has commandeered the very spirit of god (energy of the universe); claims it can trademark it in earthly law and then proceed to market it for profit!! This reminds me of a certain medieval church? It too claimed it had commandeered the way of 'salvation' for the gullible populace. That medieval church, with its resa-structure-style network of upwards reporting, soon descended the slippery slope to the 'Inquisition'. History has a habit of repeating itself…
                        >

                        JJ - I can't comment about the middle ages because I have no knowledge about it. But you are right about the arrogance of Eckankar trademarking God. As I have written about it before on ET (Eckankar Truth message board) and/or ESA, it is blasphemy against God to think that you can trademark God. Eckankar also trademarked their particular sound of God: HU.

                        > postekcon > Perhaps if ekult had stayed with its original brief and admitted openly to the world, it had been founded as a 'reference' point for the best available philosophies and theories for living life, like a Wikipedia, then it might have remained 'CURRENT'. If only it had cleaned up its act, it could have evolved as an altruistic service and been of benefit to mankind today. Instead, seeing the opportunity for financial gain, HK and owner/s colluded to formulate yet another dead religion to add the world's list. The modus operandi reminds me again of that medieval church which once sold indulgences i.e. money to church in exchange for remission of sins in the hereafter! Similarly ekult devotees can gain prominence (get noticed) by spending lots of own time and money in ekult 'service', and are often rewarded with faster progress through the 'initiation' process. To put this very simply, in ekult, receipt of the next initiation signifies the remission of some sin (karma)!
                        >

                        JJ - One person, Prometheus (on this message board) has written extensively about the "services get rewards" process in Eckankar. I'm sure that both of you are correct. Believe it or not, I was never aware of that in my 29 years in Eckankar (1979-2008). I was out of touch with the actual "goings on" at the local Eck center. I was living in my own world. As a result, much happier, but completely out of touch with what was really going on in Eckankar. In my latter years I had been reading some things about it on the Internet such as Darwin's legal deposition. Honestly, if it wasn't for the Internet, I don't think I would ever found out the truth about Eckankar.

                        JJ - I think there is some truth to your theory as stated in the beginning of your paragraph. When Klemp took over, he no doubt was made privy to the large amount of plagiarism/lies/exaggerations by Paul Twitchell. He had two choices, either "come clean" or cover it up in order to continue Eckankar's money-making scam. He chose to continue Eckankar's money-making scam. I believe that is what you are saying.

                        JJ - Question. In your first sentence, did you mean "beliefs" instead of "breif?" That makes more sense to me.

                        > postekcon > 'Service' to ekult is always emphasized and hyped as being direct service to the spirit of god! But Catch22 here as ekult also says the true godhead is a Being so detached, it has no interest whether mortals service it or not! What a clever ruse to induce 'service' for ekult coffers and hide its mlm business model. For those of you who may be unfamiliar with how ekult sources funding. In addition to church-plate style donations etc., ekult followers (like mlm affiliates) are expected to service promotional events and fund from their personal wallet promotional materials and products. More importantly, there is also a legal understanding that donations, collected at local level, belong to ekult HQ, and amounts are uploaded accordingly!
                        >

                        JJ - Eckankar has a lot of hypocrisy. They speak for God, but in the end it is always about financial gain for Eckankar. But your main point is specifically that in Eckankar "Service for God" is really "Money for Eckankar."

                        JJ - Question. What is "mlm?"

                        >
                        > postekcon > In conclusion, what of any future for ekult – there is none – it's already too late? To my observations what remains are isolated pockets of ekult devotees mostly seniors, mostly single females! Grayed-out, like inactive pc commands, I note the dynamism and energy, I once admired, is long long dead, while larger and ever larger pics of their cultic leader casts its shadow over them…
                        > -Postekcon
                        >

                        JJ - Very eloquent writing on your part. I agree that it is mostly the oldsters that are keeping Eckankar going. I mentioned this in one of my first posts on ET/ESA when I first left Eckankar in December of 2008. I think there are fewer and fewer potential new members who are interested in Klemp's dream-based version of Eckankar. In other words, the emphasizing of dreams for spiritual unfoldment. In my own experiences, all of my work was in full consciousness actually talking to Eck masters on the inner. For that, I was made to feel like a heretic and pariah when I started telling the Eckists over at a.r.e about it. While in Eckankar, I didn't even dare mention it to all but two or three people. So anyone who has capabilities beyond the "dreaming" techniques currently in Eckankar, you would be better off choosing a more advanced path. I don't know what it is, but you might consider a real Native American shaman if you can find one, and if you can handle the rigors of that. An it's not "easy" like Eckankar is. Looking at the big picture, I think it might be OK to get some basic spiritual awareness under Eckankar or some other religion, but after that, move on, because Eckankar has little to offer.

                        JJ - So, postekcon, thanks for your post. It was very well written, and very eloquently written. You made a lot of points, and I agree with virtually all of them.

                        Jonathan
                      • prometheus_973
                        Hello All, I saw the following and it reminded me of something: JJ - I agree 100% with your statement that Ekult shot itself in the foot, the day it gave
                        Message 11 of 22 , Sep 18, 2010
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hello All,
                          I saw the following and it reminded me
                          of something:

                          "JJ - I agree 100% with your statement that "Ekult shot itself in the foot, the
                          day it gave leadership to Harold Klemp." In fact, I had the same thought a few
                          days ago. Even the same metaphor! Your view that it had to do with Klemp's
                          inability to tune into the consciousness of the times is what I disagree with. I
                          don't think Klemp was trying to that in any genuine way. He was only trying to
                          tune into the consciousness of the times by asking the question "How can we get
                          new members into Eckankar?" The answer he came up with was "Make Eckankar look
                          like Christianity on the surface." I think Eckankar should have been honest and
                          true to its roots and promoted itself for what it is: a copy of Sant Mant, etc.,
                          which has been modified for Westerners. Instead, Klemp turned Eckankar into
                          something with a thin veneer of Christianity, but with the same basic Eastern
                          teachings underneath (if you look hard enough), but now emphasizing the use of
                          dreams for spiritual unfoldment."

                          [P] Klemp changing the direction of Eckankar
                          towards Christianity with Sunday Worship Services,
                          etc. reminded me of the movie of "Silence of
                          the Lambs." The FBI agent tracked "Buffalo Bill"
                          down by looking at where and what he coveted.

                          The same came be applied to Klemp. He was
                          attending a Luteran Seminary to become a
                          preacher/minister. Thus, he took Eckankar
                          in a direction away from the Eastern Teachings
                          and closer to what he knew and had been
                          trained in. And, since most Eckists come from
                          a Christian background and the fact that this
                          is still, for the most part, a Christian country
                          (as is Europe) this makes for a familiar fit.

                          Got to go now.

                          Prometheus


                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96" <jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > JJ - Please note. I only pulled forward postekcon's message. I'm going to comment on each paragraph.
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "postekcon" <postekcon@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > EKULT, AN APPRAISAL
                          > >
                          > > postekcon > I remember the ekult I joined 1970's. It seemed alive, vibrant, a movement which seemed to know what it was about and where it was going! Under the charismatic and artistic leadership of Darwin Gross membership numbers grew and grew. Because the movement was 'CURRENT' for the consciousness of those times, new members came with minimal recruitment effort!
                          > >
                          >
                          > JJ - I joined in 1979, and I can confirm that your description fits Eckankar very well for the 1979 time frame. You really made a very nice description here. I always thought there was a big difference between Eckankar when I joined in 1979 and Eckankar after Klemp had been in charge for awhile. Your description of Eckankar in the 1970s is beautiful.
                          >
                          > > postekcon > We were excited. Ekult promised us it had the 'tools' to experience greater individualism, freedom and spiritual 'unfoldment', and we believed the hype! We had grown up in the 'Flower Power' era and listening to The Beatles music! We were interested in TM (transcendental meditation), we were interested in all things 'eastern' and wanted to know more. Paul Twitchell too, was in-tune with this consciousness, he was 'CURRENT' for the times. The mail order education system he founded, matched those needs. Ignoring all plagiaristic issues here, the books and discourses he compiled from the works of other authors satisfied us for several years.
                          >
                          > JJ - Another beautiful description of Eckankar in the 1970s under Gross. I agree completely with your description and comments. Back when I joined in 1979, being interested in "eastern traditions" was OK, even well thought of in Eckankar and in many other parts of society as well. Then under Klemp, he got the "bright" [<-- sarcasm] idea that this was keeping members away. So he steered Eckankar in the direction of imitating Christianity as a way of increasing the membership. Experience has shown that this was a miserable failure in terms of bringing members into Eckankar. After all, other than saying that the HU is a prayer, the underlying teachings are still like the Eastern religions which Eckankar copied (Sant Mant, etc.).
                          >
                          > >
                          > > postekcon > However consciousness, being fluid, changes, moves on and around and ekult got left behind! Ekult shot itself in the foot, the day it gave leadership to Harold Klemp. Unlike Paul Twitchell he has never been able to tune-in to the consciousness (keep 'current'), produce or even 'compile' works which are dynamic and relevant for the times.
                          > >
                          >
                          > JJ - I agree 100% with your statement that "Ekult shot itself in the foot, the day it gave leadership to Harold Klemp." In fact, I had the same thought a few days ago. Even the same metaphor! Your view that it had to do with Klemp's inability to tune into the consciousness of the times is what I disagree with. I don't think Klemp was trying to that in any genuine way. He was only trying to tune into the consciousness of the times by asking the question "How can we get new members into Eckankar?" The answer he came up with was "Make Eckankar look like Christianity on the surface." I think Eckankar should have been honest and true to its roots and promoted itself for what it is: a copy of Sant Mant, etc., which has been modified for Westerners. Instead, Klemp turned Eckankar into something with a thin veneer of Christianity, but with the same basic Eastern teachings underneath (if you look hard enough), but now emphasizing the use of dreams for spiritual unfoldment.
                          >
                          > > postekcon > BTW- In the business world, when a product matches the market forces (consciousness) of the day, it is successful; it is never the other way round!
                          > >
                          > > postekcon > You might like to observe the consciousness of youth and those who are under 30 years of age. They tend to live life to the extreme to the edge of experience e.g. extreme sports etc. They show NO fear of the creation of either sin or karma, or of the consequences of either, whether now or in a hereafter. This is why a karma-based, savior-style religion like the one HK develops makes no sense to their consciousness. Even their devoted ekult parents have been unable to indoctrinate them in ekult ways once they've left the childhood years. (HK himself included as such a parent, I believe!).
                          > >
                          >
                          > JJ - ECKANKAR IMITATED CHRISTIANITY. What you say about the under 30 crowd is very true. But that same group of people joined Eckankar like crazy under Gross in the 1970s. Eckankar, as it was originally set up by Twitchell, and maintained by Gross, is never going to be for everyone. It is always going to be for a small minority of people. I think Eckankar's failings in recruitment since 1990 is due to the fact that instead of being true to themselves, they started imitating everyone else. If you have a unique product, why would you ruin your business by starting to imitate everyone else? Eckankar hired a Madison Avenue firm to analyze Eckankar. Klemp spoke about it in one of his talks. Klemp joked that they recommended that Eckankar send Rebazar on a tour around the United States. I think what really happened, is that this report told Eckankar that the Eastern words and concepts were keeping new members away because Eckankar's pool of possible new members is basically people who come from a Christian background, regardless of whether they practice it seriously or not.
                          >
                          > JJ - ECKANKAR IS A PASSIVE APPROACH TO SPIRITUAL UNFOLDMENT. But the most important issue here may be because Eckankar is a very passive approach (this policy is actually consistent with its Eastern predecessors). And most young people today are not into being passive. Quite the opposite! Under Klemp, Eckankar started emphasizing the use of dreams for spiritual unfoldment. Everything else in Eckankar took a back seat to this approach. And Eckankar today still emphasizes surrendering to the master but much more than Twitchell and Gross did. Again, something that is VERY passive. By the time I left Eckankar in 2008 I was sick of reading Klemp's constant requests in the Mystic World that people love him, etc or they would spiritually hold themselves back. This is NOT what young people today are interested in. They are interested in taking charge and actively pursuing spiritual unfoldment. NOT following the passive approaches put forth by Eckankar. If Eckankar is having any success at all it is because it somehow manages to brainwash some people into thinking that Eckankar's approach is active. But as we all know, it is actually sending people in a direction that keeps them slaves to Eckankar by keeping them in a passive mode of functioning: (1) using dreams for spiritual unfoldment, and (2) relying on a master whom you surrender yourself to.
                          >
                          > JJ - A quasi-Christian-underlying-Eastern religion emphasizing passive techniques such as dreams for spiritual unfoldment, and requiring people to "surrender to a master" may not be matching the consciousness of today. It just seems that fewer and fewr Westerners are falling for this crap.
                          >
                          > > postekcon > Ekult is an organization born out of human arrogance! Consider this! What level of human arrogance is shown, where an earthly organization claims it has commandeered the very spirit of god (energy of the universe); claims it can trademark it in earthly law and then proceed to market it for profit!! This reminds me of a certain medieval church? It too claimed it had commandeered the way of 'salvation' for the gullible populace. That medieval church, with its resa-structure-style network of upwards reporting, soon descended the slippery slope to the 'Inquisition'. History has a habit of repeating itself…
                          > >
                          >
                          > JJ - I can't comment about the middle ages because I have no knowledge about it. But you are right about the arrogance of Eckankar trademarking God. As I have written about it before on ET (Eckankar Truth message board) and/or ESA, it is blasphemy against God to think that you can trademark God. Eckankar also trademarked their particular sound of God: HU.
                          >
                          > > postekcon > Perhaps if ekult had stayed with its original brief and admitted openly to the world, it had been founded as a 'reference' point for the best available philosophies and theories for living life, like a Wikipedia, then it might have remained 'CURRENT'. If only it had cleaned up its act, it could have evolved as an altruistic service and been of benefit to mankind today. Instead, seeing the opportunity for financial gain, HK and owner/s colluded to formulate yet another dead religion to add the world's list. The modus operandi reminds me again of that medieval church which once sold indulgences i.e. money to church in exchange for remission of sins in the hereafter! Similarly ekult devotees can gain prominence (get noticed) by spending lots of own time and money in ekult 'service', and are often rewarded with faster progress through the 'initiation' process. To put this very simply, in ekult, receipt of the next initiation signifies the remission of some sin (karma)!
                          > >
                          >
                          > JJ - One person, Prometheus (on this message board) has written extensively about the "services get rewards" process in Eckankar. I'm sure that both of you are correct. Believe it or not, I was never aware of that in my 29 years in Eckankar (1979-2008). I was out of touch with the actual "goings on" at the local Eck center. I was living in my own world. As a result, much happier, but completely out of touch with what was really going on in Eckankar. In my latter years I had been reading some things about it on the Internet such as Darwin's legal deposition. Honestly, if it wasn't for the Internet, I don't think I would ever found out the truth about Eckankar.
                          >
                          > JJ - I think there is some truth to your theory as stated in the beginning of your paragraph. When Klemp took over, he no doubt was made privy to the large amount of plagiarism/lies/exaggerations by Paul Twitchell. He had two choices, either "come clean" or cover it up in order to continue Eckankar's money-making scam. He chose to continue Eckankar's money-making scam. I believe that is what you are saying.
                          >
                          > JJ - Question. In your first sentence, did you mean "beliefs" instead of "breif?" That makes more sense to me.
                          >
                          > > postekcon > 'Service' to ekult is always emphasized and hyped as being direct service to the spirit of god! But Catch22 here as ekult also says the true godhead is a Being so detached, it has no interest whether mortals service it or not! What a clever ruse to induce 'service' for ekult coffers and hide its mlm business model. For those of you who may be unfamiliar with how ekult sources funding. In addition to church-plate style donations etc., ekult followers (like mlm affiliates) are expected to service promotional events and fund from their personal wallet promotional materials and products. More importantly, there is also a legal understanding that donations, collected at local level, belong to ekult HQ, and amounts are uploaded accordingly!
                          > >
                          >
                          > JJ - Eckankar has a lot of hypocrisy. They speak for God, but in the end it is always about financial gain for Eckankar. But your main point is specifically that in Eckankar "Service for God" is really "Money for Eckankar."
                          >
                          > JJ - Question. What is "mlm?"
                          >
                          > >
                          > > postekcon > In conclusion, what of any future for ekult – there is none – it's already too late? To my observations what remains are isolated pockets of ekult devotees mostly seniors, mostly single females! Grayed-out, like inactive pc commands, I note the dynamism and energy, I once admired, is long long dead, while larger and ever larger pics of their cultic leader casts its shadow over them…
                          > > -Postekcon
                          > >
                          >
                          > JJ - Very eloquent writing on your part. I agree that it is mostly the oldsters that are keeping Eckankar going. I mentioned this in one of my first posts on ET/ESA when I first left Eckankar in December of 2008. I think there are fewer and fewer potential new members who are interested in Klemp's dream-based version of Eckankar. In other words, the emphasizing of dreams for spiritual unfoldment. In my own experiences, all of my work was in full consciousness actually talking to Eck masters on the inner. For that, I was made to feel like a heretic and pariah when I started telling the Eckists over at a.r.e about it. While in Eckankar, I didn't even dare mention it to all but two or three people. So anyone who has capabilities beyond the "dreaming" techniques currently in Eckankar, you would be better off choosing a more advanced path. I don't know what it is, but you might consider a real Native American shaman if you can find one, and if you can handle the rigors of that. An it's not "easy" like Eckankar is. Looking at the big picture, I think it might be OK to get some basic spiritual awareness under Eckankar or some other religion, but after that, move on, because Eckankar has little to offer.
                          >
                          > JJ - So, postekcon, thanks for your post. It was very well written, and very eloquently written. You made a lot of points, and I agree with virtually all of them.
                          >
                          > Jonathan
                          >
                        • etznab@aol.com
                          I could identify with a number of points in that appraisal. I liked this part especially: BTW- In the business world, when a product matches the market forces
                          Message 12 of 22 , Sep 18, 2010
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I could identify with a number of points in
                            that appraisal. I liked this part especially:

                            "BTW- In the business world, when a product
                            matches the market forces (consciousness)
                            of the day, it is successful; it is never the
                            other way round!"

                            And about the youth, and consciousness,
                            the youth of today have easy access to a
                            lot more information and sources of inform-
                            ation for research purposes, where most of
                            the older generations had the library and a
                            card catalog.

                            I'd often thought about Paul Twitchell in the
                            library, compiling and researching. And now
                            I ask myself: WHY DID IT EVER STOP?

                            Today, with the resources available, people
                            can not only look at materials that Paul T.
                            compiled & researched from, but they can
                            take it further by continuing to compile and
                            research (not forgetting to cite references &
                            credit sources, of course). However, how
                            much does it happen in organized religion?
                            Because, doesn't it challenge the traditional
                            existing dogma whenever a person decides
                            to improve on it? Or, go beyond it? (Not to
                            mention, expose it, give some history of it
                            and show where it REALLY came from.)

                            What are Eckankar's chances of seeing a
                            "REFORMATION"? Personally, I think it's
                            inevitable. The organization will change, or
                            will become another fossil religion. Both of
                            these forces are working antagonistic to
                            one another in the lives of many people to-
                            day, IMO. There is the traditional religious
                            dogma and there is the need to change it.
                            Some want change, and others are afraid
                            of what that will mean to the old cherished
                            dogma.

                            Etznab

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: postekcon <postekcon@...>
                            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Fri, Sep 17, 2010 2:40 am
                            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: All ECKists Should Respond To
                            This In Order To Vent

                             
                            EKULT, AN APPRAISAL

                            I remember the ekult I joined 1970's. It seemed alive, vibrant, a
                            movement which seemed to know what it was about and where it was going!
                            Under the charismatic and artistic leadership of Darwin Gross
                            membership numbers grew and grew. Because the movement was 'CURRENT'
                            for the consciousness of those times, new members came with minimal
                            recruitment effort!

                            We were excited. Ekult promised us it had the 'tools' to experience
                            greater individualism, freedom and spiritual 'unfoldment', and we
                            believed the hype! We had grown up in the 'Flower Power' era and
                            listening to The Beatles music! We were interested in TM
                            (transcendental meditation), we were interested in all things 'eastern'
                            and wanted to know more. Paul Twitchell too, was in-tune with this
                            consciousness, he was 'CURRENT' for the times. The mail order education
                            system he founded, matched those needs. Ignoring all plagiaristic
                            issues here, the books and discourses he compiled from the works of
                            other authors satisfied us for several years.

                            However consciousness, being fluid, changes, moves on and around and
                            ekult got left behind! Ekult shot itself in the foot, the day it gave
                            leadership to Harold Klemp. Unlike Paul Twitchell he has never been
                            able to tune-in to the consciousness (keep 'current'), produce or even
                            'compile' works which are dynamic and relevant for the times.

                            BTW- In the business world, when a product matches the market forces
                            (consciousness) of the day, it is successful; it is never the other way
                            round!

                            You might like to observe the consciousness of youth and those who are
                            under 30 years of age. They tend to live life to the extreme to the
                            edge of experience e.g. extreme sports etc. They show NO fear of the
                            creation of either sin or karma, or of the consequences of either,
                            whether now or in a hereafter. This is why a karma-based, savior-style
                            religion like the one HK develops makes no sense to their
                            consciousness. Even their devoted ekult parents have been unable to
                            indoctrinate them in ekult ways once they've left the childhood years.
                            (HK himself included as such a parent, I believe!).

                            Ekult is an organization born out of human arrogance! Consider this!
                            What level of human arrogance is shown, where an earthly organization
                            claims it has commandeered the very spirit of god (energy of the
                            universe); claims it can trademark it in earthly law and then proceed
                            to market it for profit!! This reminds me of a certain medieval
                            church? It too claimed it had commandeered the way of 'salvation' for
                            the gullible populace. That medieval church, with its
                            resa-structure-style network of upwards reporting, soon descended the
                            slippery slope to the 'Inquisition'. History has a habit of repeating
                            itself…

                            Perhaps if ekult had stayed with its original brief and admitted openly
                            to the world, it had been founded as a 'reference' point for the best
                            available philosophies and theories for living life, like a Wikipedia,
                            then it might have remained 'CURRENT'. If only it had cleaned up its
                            act, it could have evolved as an altruistic service and been of benefit
                            to mankind today. Instead, seeing the opportunity for financial gain,
                            HK and owner/s colluded to formulate yet another dead religion to add
                            the world's list. The modus operandi reminds me again of that medieval
                            church which once sold indulgences i.e. money to church in exchange for
                            remission of sins in the hereafter! Similarly ekult devotees can gain
                            prominence (get noticed) by spending lots of own time and money in
                            ekult 'service', and are often rewarded with faster progress through
                            the 'initiation' process. To put this very simply, in ekult, receipt of
                            the next initiation signifies the remission of some sin (karma)!

                            'Service' to ekult is always emphasized and hyped as being direct
                            service to the spirit of god! But Catch22 here as ekult also says the
                            true godhead is a Being so detached, it has no interest whether mortals
                            service it or not! What a clever ruse to induce 'service' for ekult
                            coffers and hide its mlm business model. For those of you who may be
                            unfamiliar with how ekult sources funding. In addition to church-plate
                            style donations etc., ekult followers (like mlm affiliates) are
                            expected to service promotional events and fund from their personal
                            wallet promotional materials and products. More importantly, there is
                            also a legal understanding that donations, collected at local level,
                            belong to ekult HQ, and amounts are uploaded accordingly!

                            In conclusion, what of any future for ekult – there is none – it's
                            already too late? To my observations what remains are isolated pockets
                            of ekult devotees mostly seniors, mostly single females! Grayed-out,
                            like inactive pc commands, I note the dynamism and energy, I once
                            admired, is long long dead, while larger and ever larger pics of their
                            cultic leader casts its shadow over them…
                            -Postekcon

                            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                            <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hello Jonathan,
                            > Thanks. I don't know what I said,
                            > but thanks anyway. Sometimes
                            > I think I should write and thank
                            > Klemp for being such a boring
                            > wannabe who lacks charisma.
                            >
                            > BTW-Imagine how many more
                            > ECKists there would be, now, if
                            > Klemp had even close to the same
                            > amount of charisma as Twitchell
                            > or Gross had.
                            >
                            > Plus, it seems that Klemp has
                            > been in semi-retirement for
                            > a number of years now. This
                            > semi-seclusion/retirement
                            > became more apparent when
                            > he stopped traveling to major
                            > ECK Seminars. I'm thinking that
                            > he made more "cheesy" health
                            > excuses to in order to justify
                            > his changes in behaviour and
                            > not wanting to travel.
                            >
                            > Remember the time HK talked
                            > about eating too much cheese
                            > and this had a negative health
                            > effect upon him? He probably
                            > got constipated! It was stupid
                            > on his part, but isn't that called
                            > gluttony too and is one of the
                            > Five Passions of the Mind. One
                            > would think that a Mahanta
                            > (although not perfect) would
                            > be higher in consciousness.
                            >
                            > However, Klemp turns even his
                            > own lack of consciousness and
                            > common sense around and uses
                            > his ill health as an excuse. His
                            > illnesses have now become the
                            > result of taking on more Karma
                            > for his chelas and acting as a karmic
                            > "holding tank" so that his Chelas
                            > and H.I.s can advance in consciousness
                            > and, thereby, in their initiations.
                            >
                            > How's that worked out for ECKists?
                            > In Eckankar today there are even
                            > more restrictions/requirements
                            > for H.I.s to qualify for the next
                            > higher initiation and title (i.e. cleric,
                            > initiator, ESA, RESA). And, thanks
                            > to Klemp, there are no longer
                            > Major ECK Seminars in California
                            > and Florida in the colder months
                            > of Oct. and March-April.
                            >
                            > BTW- Don't "Holding Tanks" get
                            > emptied so that more can be taken
                            > in? It's an on-going process/cycle
                            > kind of like using that old "Snow
                            > Ball Technique" over and over again.
                            >
                            > Well, this is all a moot point isn't
                            > it. Klemp has no powers... he's a
                            > fraud. I can see why he seems meek,
                            > at times, since he is aware that it's
                            > all a game he's playing and that
                            > any day now he'll be discovered
                            > for being a fraud. That's why he's
                            > not letting ECKists know where
                            > all the money is going since he's
                            > hide enough away to take care
                            > of himself just in case. But, what
                            > will that take for more ECKists to
                            > see through the facade? I don't know...
                            > maybe HK dropping over dead or
                            > having a stroke or maybe cancer?
                            >
                            > Don't get me wrong... I'd never
                            > wish that on anyone, but it happens
                            > everyday to all kinds of people and
                            > even to H.I.s. (of course). Yes, H.I.s
                            > are not special, and they get cancer
                            > too! Thus, Klemp is not exempt
                            > from this happening to him. Look
                            > at Twitchell... he didn't predict
                            > his heart attack and death! But,
                            > according to his own EK scripture
                            > (as the LEM/Mahanta) he should
                            > have known well in advance as
                            > to when he would be translating.
                            >
                            > However, in "Difficulties Of Being
                            > The Living ECK Master" Paul was
                            > meeting with his inner circle of
                            > H.I.s (in a business meeting) on
                            > the day of his death. The notes
                            > and comments of that meeting
                            > are given here. And, PT was making
                            > plans for his future with Eckankar
                            > in this meeting. Paul gave no indication
                            > (just the opposite) of his impending
                            > death on that very same night.
                            >
                            > This is just one more reason as
                            > to why this historical ECK book
                            > was not republished by Eckankar
                            > (Klemp). It's not like "Difficulties"
                            > can't be republished/reprinted
                            > since Eckankar has its own printing
                            > equipment, does the publishing,
                            > and owns PT's copyrights. Thus,
                            > this is just one more cover-up
                            > showing that Eckankar is simply
                            > another false teaching/religion
                            > that can't keep it's promises in/for
                            > this Here and Now.
                            >
                            > Prometheus
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Jonathan wrote:
                            >
                            > Prometheus,
                            >
                            > Thank you for the comments. I found them to be very helpful and
                            very healing.
                            >
                            > Jonathan
                            >
                          • postekcon
                            Thank you all for responses... My reference to the medieval church and the indulgences issue, i.e. money to church in exchange for remission of sin in the
                            Message 13 of 22 , Sep 18, 2010
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                              Thank you all for responses...

                              My reference to the medieval church and the 'indulgences' issue, i.e. money to church in exchange for remission of sin in the hereafter, was a special point for HK himself, which he will fully understand from his Lutheran upbringing...

                              The indulgences issue was the great trigger point for the Protestant Reformation. The big irony here is LOL; we now see HK and his concocted church repeating history... 'Service' (time/money) to ekult in exchange for the remission of sin/karma!

                              The lem, due to his high initiation level, claims he is god's rep in all universes. So how come, it is only those who 'service' ekult who are on his fast-track to spiritual enlightenment?

                              A question, I know, many ekult devotees ask of themselves! Ekult is a religion where service to all life is recommended as a way of life! So why is it this 'service' must be in visible form for ekult, for it to actually count as 'service'?
                              -Postekcon
                              p.s. in original post, mlm = multi-level-marketing.



                              Jonathan &

                              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
                              >
                              > I could identify with a number of points in
                              > that appraisal. I liked this part especially:
                              >
                              > "BTW- In the business world, when a product
                              > matches the market forces (consciousness)
                              > of the day, it is successful; it is never the
                              > other way round!"
                              >
                              > And about the youth, and consciousness,
                              > the youth of today have easy access to a
                              > lot more information and sources of inform-
                              > ation for research purposes, where most of
                              > the older generations had the library and a
                              > card catalog.
                              >
                              > I'd often thought about Paul Twitchell in the
                              > library, compiling and researching. And now
                              > I ask myself: WHY DID IT EVER STOP?
                              >
                              > Today, with the resources available, people
                              > can not only look at materials that Paul T.
                              > compiled & researched from, but they can
                              > take it further by continuing to compile and
                              > research (not forgetting to cite references &
                              > credit sources, of course). However, how
                              > much does it happen in organized religion?
                              > Because, doesn't it challenge the traditional
                              > existing dogma whenever a person decides
                              > to improve on it? Or, go beyond it? (Not to
                              > mention, expose it, give some history of it
                              > and show where it REALLY came from.)
                              >
                              > What are Eckankar's chances of seeing a
                              > "REFORMATION"? Personally, I think it's
                              > inevitable. The organization will change, or
                              > will become another fossil religion. Both of
                              > these forces are working antagonistic to
                              > one another in the lives of many people to-
                              > day, IMO. There is the traditional religious
                              > dogma and there is the need to change it.
                              > Some want change, and others are afraid
                              > of what that will mean to the old cherished
                              > dogma.
                              >
                              > Etznab
                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: postekcon <postekcon@...>
                              > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Fri, Sep 17, 2010 2:40 am
                              > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: All ECKists Should Respond To
                              > This In Order To Vent
                              >
                              >  
                              > EKULT, AN APPRAISAL
                              >
                              > I remember the ekult I joined 1970's. It seemed alive, vibrant, a
                              > movement which seemed to know what it was about and where it was going!
                              > Under the charismatic and artistic leadership of Darwin Gross
                              > membership numbers grew and grew. Because the movement was 'CURRENT'
                              > for the consciousness of those times, new members came with minimal
                              > recruitment effort!
                              >
                              > We were excited. Ekult promised us it had the 'tools' to experience
                              > greater individualism, freedom and spiritual 'unfoldment', and we
                              > believed the hype! We had grown up in the 'Flower Power' era and
                              > listening to The Beatles music! We were interested in TM
                              > (transcendental meditation), we were interested in all things 'eastern'
                              > and wanted to know more. Paul Twitchell too, was in-tune with this
                              > consciousness, he was 'CURRENT' for the times. The mail order education
                              > system he founded, matched those needs. Ignoring all plagiaristic
                              > issues here, the books and discourses he compiled from the works of
                              > other authors satisfied us for several years.
                              >
                              > However consciousness, being fluid, changes, moves on and around and
                              > ekult got left behind! Ekult shot itself in the foot, the day it gave
                              > leadership to Harold Klemp. Unlike Paul Twitchell he has never been
                              > able to tune-in to the consciousness (keep 'current'), produce or even
                              > 'compile' works which are dynamic and relevant for the times.
                              >
                              > BTW- In the business world, when a product matches the market forces
                              > (consciousness) of the day, it is successful; it is never the other way
                              > round!
                              >
                              > You might like to observe the consciousness of youth and those who are
                              > under 30 years of age. They tend to live life to the extreme to the
                              > edge of experience e.g. extreme sports etc. They show NO fear of the
                              > creation of either sin or karma, or of the consequences of either,
                              > whether now or in a hereafter. This is why a karma-based, savior-style
                              > religion like the one HK develops makes no sense to their
                              > consciousness. Even their devoted ekult parents have been unable to
                              > indoctrinate them in ekult ways once they've left the childhood years.
                              > (HK himself included as such a parent, I believe!).
                              >
                              > Ekult is an organization born out of human arrogance! Consider this!
                              > What level of human arrogance is shown, where an earthly organization
                              > claims it has commandeered the very spirit of god (energy of the
                              > universe); claims it can trademark it in earthly law and then proceed
                              > to market it for profit!! This reminds me of a certain medieval
                              > church? It too claimed it had commandeered the way of 'salvation' for
                              > the gullible populace. That medieval church, with its
                              > resa-structure-style network of upwards reporting, soon descended the
                              > slippery slope to the 'Inquisition'. History has a habit of repeating
                              > itself…
                              >
                              > Perhaps if ekult had stayed with its original brief and admitted openly
                              > to the world, it had been founded as a 'reference' point for the best
                              > available philosophies and theories for living life, like a Wikipedia,
                              > then it might have remained 'CURRENT'. If only it had cleaned up its
                              > act, it could have evolved as an altruistic service and been of benefit
                              > to mankind today. Instead, seeing the opportunity for financial gain,
                              > HK and owner/s colluded to formulate yet another dead religion to add
                              > the world's list. The modus operandi reminds me again of that medieval
                              > church which once sold indulgences i.e. money to church in exchange for
                              > remission of sins in the hereafter! Similarly ekult devotees can gain
                              > prominence (get noticed) by spending lots of own time and money in
                              > ekult 'service', and are often rewarded with faster progress through
                              > the 'initiation' process. To put this very simply, in ekult, receipt of
                              > the next initiation signifies the remission of some sin (karma)!
                              >
                              > 'Service' to ekult is always emphasized and hyped as being direct
                              > service to the spirit of god! But Catch22 here as ekult also says the
                              > true godhead is a Being so detached, it has no interest whether mortals
                              > service it or not! What a clever ruse to induce 'service' for ekult
                              > coffers and hide its mlm business model. For those of you who may be
                              > unfamiliar with how ekult sources funding. In addition to church-plate
                              > style donations etc., ekult followers (like mlm affiliates) are
                              > expected to service promotional events and fund from their personal
                              > wallet promotional materials and products. More importantly, there is
                              > also a legal understanding that donations, collected at local level,
                              > belong to ekult HQ, and amounts are uploaded accordingly!
                              >
                              > In conclusion, what of any future for ekult â€" there is none â€" it's
                              > already too late? To my observations what remains are isolated pockets
                              > of ekult devotees mostly seniors, mostly single females! Grayed-out,
                              > like inactive pc commands, I note the dynamism and energy, I once
                              > admired, is long long dead, while larger and ever larger pics of their
                              > cultic leader casts its shadow over them…
                              > -Postekcon
                              >
                              > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                              > prometheus_973@ wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Hello Jonathan,
                              > > Thanks. I don't know what I said,
                              > > but thanks anyway. Sometimes
                              > > I think I should write and thank
                              > > Klemp for being such a boring
                              > > wannabe who lacks charisma.
                              > >
                              > > BTW-Imagine how many more
                              > > ECKists there would be, now, if
                              > > Klemp had even close to the same
                              > > amount of charisma as Twitchell
                              > > or Gross had.
                              > >
                              > > Plus, it seems that Klemp has
                              > > been in semi-retirement for
                              > > a number of years now. This
                              > > semi-seclusion/retirement
                              > > became more apparent when
                              > > he stopped traveling to major
                              > > ECK Seminars. I'm thinking that
                              > > he made more "cheesy" health
                              > > excuses to in order to justify
                              > > his changes in behaviour and
                              > > not wanting to travel.
                              > >
                              > > Remember the time HK talked
                              > > about eating too much cheese
                              > > and this had a negative health
                              > > effect upon him? He probably
                              > > got constipated! It was stupid
                              > > on his part, but isn't that called
                              > > gluttony too and is one of the
                              > > Five Passions of the Mind. One
                              > > would think that a Mahanta
                              > > (although not perfect) would
                              > > be higher in consciousness.
                              > >
                              > > However, Klemp turns even his
                              > > own lack of consciousness and
                              > > common sense around and uses
                              > > his ill health as an excuse. His
                              > > illnesses have now become the
                              > > result of taking on more Karma
                              > > for his chelas and acting as a karmic
                              > > "holding tank" so that his Chelas
                              > > and H.I.s can advance in consciousness
                              > > and, thereby, in their initiations.
                              > >
                              > > How's that worked out for ECKists?
                              > > In Eckankar today there are even
                              > > more restrictions/requirements
                              > > for H.I.s to qualify for the next
                              > > higher initiation and title (i.e. cleric,
                              > > initiator, ESA, RESA). And, thanks
                              > > to Klemp, there are no longer
                              > > Major ECK Seminars in California
                              > > and Florida in the colder months
                              > > of Oct. and March-April.
                              > >
                              > > BTW- Don't "Holding Tanks" get
                              > > emptied so that more can be taken
                              > > in? It's an on-going process/cycle
                              > > kind of like using that old "Snow
                              > > Ball Technique" over and over again.
                              > >
                              > > Well, this is all a moot point isn't
                              > > it. Klemp has no powers... he's a
                              > > fraud. I can see why he seems meek,
                              > > at times, since he is aware that it's
                              > > all a game he's playing and that
                              > > any day now he'll be discovered
                              > > for being a fraud. That's why he's
                              > > not letting ECKists know where
                              > > all the money is going since he's
                              > > hide enough away to take care
                              > > of himself just in case. But, what
                              > > will that take for more ECKists to
                              > > see through the facade? I don't know...
                              > > maybe HK dropping over dead or
                              > > having a stroke or maybe cancer?
                              > >
                              > > Don't get me wrong... I'd never
                              > > wish that on anyone, but it happens
                              > > everyday to all kinds of people and
                              > > even to H.I.s. (of course). Yes, H.I.s
                              > > are not special, and they get cancer
                              > > too! Thus, Klemp is not exempt
                              > > from this happening to him. Look
                              > > at Twitchell... he didn't predict
                              > > his heart attack and death! But,
                              > > according to his own EK scripture
                              > > (as the LEM/Mahanta) he should
                              > > have known well in advance as
                              > > to when he would be translating.
                              > >
                              > > However, in "Difficulties Of Being
                              > > The Living ECK Master" Paul was
                              > > meeting with his inner circle of
                              > > H.I.s (in a business meeting) on
                              > > the day of his death. The notes
                              > > and comments of that meeting
                              > > are given here. And, PT was making
                              > > plans for his future with Eckankar
                              > > in this meeting. Paul gave no indication
                              > > (just the opposite) of his impending
                              > > death on that very same night.
                              > >
                              > > This is just one more reason as
                              > > to why this historical ECK book
                              > > was not republished by Eckankar
                              > > (Klemp). It's not like "Difficulties"
                              > > can't be republished/reprinted
                              > > since Eckankar has its own printing
                              > > equipment, does the publishing,
                              > > and owns PT's copyrights. Thus,
                              > > this is just one more cover-up
                              > > showing that Eckankar is simply
                              > > another false teaching/religion
                              > > that can't keep it's promises in/for
                              > > this Here and Now.
                              > >
                              > > Prometheus
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Jonathan wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Prometheus,
                              > >
                              > > Thank you for the comments. I found them to be very helpful and
                              > very healing.
                              > >
                              > > Jonathan
                              > >
                              >
                            • prometheus_973
                              Hello Postekcon and All, Thanks for the post. Yes, it seems that indulgences have taken on the name of service with Eckankar. However, indulgences were
                              Message 14 of 22 , Sep 19, 2010
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                                Hello Postekcon and All,
                                Thanks for the post. Yes, it seems that
                                "indulgences" have taken on the name
                                of "service" with Eckankar. However,
                                indulgences were strictly sold for money.
                                Klemp, however, needs a free/volunteer
                                sales team to sell his wares (and Eckankar's),
                                while he gets 50% royalties for anything
                                with his name on it.

                                But, what do these ECKists get on the
                                lower planes for/from their lower plane
                                service? Well, if you're a 7th Initiate and
                                an ESA and don't want the headache
                                of being a RESA then you don't get
                                anything because you've hit the glass
                                ceiling.

                                Maybe one can be a Director within
                                the Satsang but that's a pain with
                                people calling you all the time and
                                then having to write reports and plan
                                events etc. Plus you have to call people
                                and remind them to write and turn
                                in their reports to you! Except for
                                being in the limelight and having
                                some power it's really not worth it.
                                But, for some the small amount of
                                power and notoriety would be worth
                                it the hassle I guess but it won't get
                                you anywhere except to be considered
                                for the RESA's spot when/if it opens
                                up. The RESA position is a status
                                position, but for those 7ths who
                                have been there and done that
                                there's nothing else except the
                                hope of getting an 8th. But Klemp
                                is a tight ass and doesn't want to
                                share the wealth so kiss that 8th
                                good-bye. But who knows...
                                Of course that's another Catch-22.
                                If an ECKists desires or covenants
                                that 8th (or whatever) too much
                                then this is why it won't come.
                                But if you "surrender" and give-
                                up your desires then it becomes
                                more possible, but still improbable.
                                That's the "carrot" that is dangled
                                in front of their noses and keeps
                                them distracted in yet another
                                manmade religion.

                                Anyway, if you're not yet an ESA or
                                a 7th Initiate then you are more motivated
                                to play the game. Status and power are
                                the motivators (along with the promises
                                of all the "higher heavenly" benefits one
                                can imagine). Some people need religion.
                                The irony is that ECKists see themselves
                                "above" all other religions while not
                                seeing that they have fallen into the
                                same religious trap.

                                Prometheus

                                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "postekcon" <postekcon@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Thank you all for responses...
                                >
                                > My reference to the medieval church and the 'indulgences' issue, i.e. money to church in exchange for remission of sin in the hereafter, was a special point for HK himself, which he will fully understand from his Lutheran upbringing...
                                >
                                > The indulgences issue was the great trigger point for the Protestant Reformation. The big irony here is LOL; we now see HK and his concocted church repeating history... 'Service' (time/money) to ekult in exchange for the remission of sin/karma!
                                >
                                > The lem, due to his high initiation level, claims he is god's rep in all universes. So how come, it is only those who 'service' ekult who are on his fast-track to spiritual enlightenment?
                                >
                                > A question, I know, many ekult devotees ask of themselves! Ekult is a religion where service to all life is recommended as a way of life! So why is it this 'service' must be in visible form for ekult, for it to actually count as 'service'?
                                > -Postekcon
                                > p.s. in original post, mlm = multi-level-marketing.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Jonathan &
                                >
                                > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                                > >
                                > > I could identify with a number of points in
                                > > that appraisal. I liked this part especially:
                                > >
                                > > "BTW- In the business world, when a product
                                > > matches the market forces (consciousness)
                                > > of the day, it is successful; it is never the
                                > > other way round!"
                                > >
                                > > And about the youth, and consciousness,
                                > > the youth of today have easy access to a
                                > > lot more information and sources of inform-
                                > > ation for research purposes, where most of
                                > > the older generations had the library and a
                                > > card catalog.
                                > >
                                > > I'd often thought about Paul Twitchell in the
                                > > library, compiling and researching. And now
                                > > I ask myself: WHY DID IT EVER STOP?
                                > >
                                > > Today, with the resources available, people
                                > > can not only look at materials that Paul T.
                                > > compiled & researched from, but they can
                                > > take it further by continuing to compile and
                                > > research (not forgetting to cite references &
                                > > credit sources, of course). However, how
                                > > much does it happen in organized religion?
                                > > Because, doesn't it challenge the traditional
                                > > existing dogma whenever a person decides
                                > > to improve on it? Or, go beyond it? (Not to
                                > > mention, expose it, give some history of it
                                > > and show where it REALLY came from.)
                                > >
                                > > What are Eckankar's chances of seeing a
                                > > "REFORMATION"? Personally, I think it's
                                > > inevitable. The organization will change, or
                                > > will become another fossil religion. Both of
                                > > these forces are working antagonistic to
                                > > one another in the lives of many people to-
                                > > day, IMO. There is the traditional religious
                                > > dogma and there is the need to change it.
                                > > Some want change, and others are afraid
                                > > of what that will mean to the old cherished
                                > > dogma.
                                > >
                                > > Etznab
                                > >
                                > > -----Original Message-----
                                > > From: postekcon <postekcon@>
                                > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                > > Sent: Fri, Sep 17, 2010 2:40 am
                                > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: All ECKists Should Respond To
                                > > This In Order To Vent
                                > >
                                > >  
                                > > EKULT, AN APPRAISAL
                                > >
                                > > I remember the ekult I joined 1970's. It seemed alive, vibrant, a
                                > > movement which seemed to know what it was about and where it was going!
                                > > Under the charismatic and artistic leadership of Darwin Gross
                                > > membership numbers grew and grew. Because the movement was 'CURRENT'
                                > > for the consciousness of those times, new members came with minimal
                                > > recruitment effort!
                                > >
                                > > We were excited. Ekult promised us it had the 'tools' to experience
                                > > greater individualism, freedom and spiritual 'unfoldment', and we
                                > > believed the hype! We had grown up in the 'Flower Power' era and
                                > > listening to The Beatles music! We were interested in TM
                                > > (transcendental meditation), we were interested in all things 'eastern'
                                > > and wanted to know more. Paul Twitchell too, was in-tune with this
                                > > consciousness, he was 'CURRENT' for the times. The mail order education
                                > > system he founded, matched those needs. Ignoring all plagiaristic
                                > > issues here, the books and discourses he compiled from the works of
                                > > other authors satisfied us for several years.
                                > >
                                > > However consciousness, being fluid, changes, moves on and around and
                                > > ekult got left behind! Ekult shot itself in the foot, the day it gave
                                > > leadership to Harold Klemp. Unlike Paul Twitchell he has never been
                                > > able to tune-in to the consciousness (keep 'current'), produce or even
                                > > 'compile' works which are dynamic and relevant for the times.
                                > >
                                > > BTW- In the business world, when a product matches the market forces
                                > > (consciousness) of the day, it is successful; it is never the other way
                                > > round!
                                > >
                                > > You might like to observe the consciousness of youth and those who are
                                > > under 30 years of age. They tend to live life to the extreme to the
                                > > edge of experience e.g. extreme sports etc. They show NO fear of the
                                > > creation of either sin or karma, or of the consequences of either,
                                > > whether now or in a hereafter. This is why a karma-based, savior-style
                                > > religion like the one HK develops makes no sense to their
                                > > consciousness. Even their devoted ekult parents have been unable to
                                > > indoctrinate them in ekult ways once they've left the childhood years.
                                > > (HK himself included as such a parent, I believe!).
                                > >
                                > > Ekult is an organization born out of human arrogance! Consider this!
                                > > What level of human arrogance is shown, where an earthly organization
                                > > claims it has commandeered the very spirit of god (energy of the
                                > > universe); claims it can trademark it in earthly law and then proceed
                                > > to market it for profit!! This reminds me of a certain medieval
                                > > church? It too claimed it had commandeered the way of 'salvation' for
                                > > the gullible populace. That medieval church, with its
                                > > resa-structure-style network of upwards reporting, soon descended the
                                > > slippery slope to the 'Inquisition'. History has a habit of repeating
                                > > itself…
                                > >
                                > > Perhaps if ekult had stayed with its original brief and admitted openly
                                > > to the world, it had been founded as a 'reference' point for the best
                                > > available philosophies and theories for living life, like a Wikipedia,
                                > > then it might have remained 'CURRENT'. If only it had cleaned up its
                                > > act, it could have evolved as an altruistic service and been of benefit
                                > > to mankind today. Instead, seeing the opportunity for financial gain,
                                > > HK and owner/s colluded to formulate yet another dead religion to add
                                > > the world's list. The modus operandi reminds me again of that medieval
                                > > church which once sold indulgences i.e. money to church in exchange for
                                > > remission of sins in the hereafter! Similarly ekult devotees can gain
                                > > prominence (get noticed) by spending lots of own time and money in
                                > > ekult 'service', and are often rewarded with faster progress through
                                > > the 'initiation' process. To put this very simply, in ekult, receipt of
                                > > the next initiation signifies the remission of some sin (karma)!
                                > >
                                > > 'Service' to ekult is always emphasized and hyped as being direct
                                > > service to the spirit of god! But Catch22 here as ekult also says the
                                > > true godhead is a Being so detached, it has no interest whether mortals
                                > > service it or not! What a clever ruse to induce 'service' for ekult
                                > > coffers and hide its mlm business model. For those of you who may be
                                > > unfamiliar with how ekult sources funding. In addition to church-plate
                                > > style donations etc., ekult followers (like mlm affiliates) are
                                > > expected to service promotional events and fund from their personal
                                > > wallet promotional materials and products. More importantly, there is
                                > > also a legal understanding that donations, collected at local level,
                                > > belong to ekult HQ, and amounts are uploaded accordingly!
                                > >
                                > > In conclusion, what of any future for ekult â€" there is none â€" it's
                                > > already too late? To my observations what remains are isolated pockets
                                > > of ekult devotees mostly seniors, mostly single females! Grayed-out,
                                > > like inactive pc commands, I note the dynamism and energy, I once
                                > > admired, is long long dead, while larger and ever larger pics of their
                                > > cultic leader casts its shadow over them…
                                > > -Postekcon
                                > >
                                > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                                > > prometheus_973@ wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > Hello Jonathan,
                                > > > Thanks. I don't know what I said,
                                > > > but thanks anyway. Sometimes
                                > > > I think I should write and thank
                                > > > Klemp for being such a boring
                                > > > wannabe who lacks charisma.
                                > > >
                                > > > BTW-Imagine how many more
                                > > > ECKists there would be, now, if
                                > > > Klemp had even close to the same
                                > > > amount of charisma as Twitchell
                                > > > or Gross had.
                                > > >
                                > > > Plus, it seems that Klemp has
                                > > > been in semi-retirement for
                                > > > a number of years now. This
                                > > > semi-seclusion/retirement
                                > > > became more apparent when
                                > > > he stopped traveling to major
                                > > > ECK Seminars. I'm thinking that
                                > > > he made more "cheesy" health
                                > > > excuses to in order to justify
                                > > > his changes in behaviour and
                                > > > not wanting to travel.
                                > > >
                                > > > Remember the time HK talked
                                > > > about eating too much cheese
                                > > > and this had a negative health
                                > > > effect upon him? He probably
                                > > > got constipated! It was stupid
                                > > > on his part, but isn't that called
                                > > > gluttony too and is one of the
                                > > > Five Passions of the Mind. One
                                > > > would think that a Mahanta
                                > > > (although not perfect) would
                                > > > be higher in consciousness.
                                > > >
                                > > > However, Klemp turns even his
                                > > > own lack of consciousness and
                                > > > common sense around and uses
                                > > > his ill health as an excuse. His
                                > > > illnesses have now become the
                                > > > result of taking on more Karma
                                > > > for his chelas and acting as a karmic
                                > > > "holding tank" so that his Chelas
                                > > > and H.I.s can advance in consciousness
                                > > > and, thereby, in their initiations.
                                > > >
                                > > > How's that worked out for ECKists?
                                > > > In Eckankar today there are even
                                > > > more restrictions/requirements
                                > > > for H.I.s to qualify for the next
                                > > > higher initiation and title (i.e. cleric,
                                > > > initiator, ESA, RESA). And, thanks
                                > > > to Klemp, there are no longer
                                > > > Major ECK Seminars in California
                                > > > and Florida in the colder months
                                > > > of Oct. and March-April.
                                > > >
                                > > > BTW- Don't "Holding Tanks" get
                                > > > emptied so that more can be taken
                                > > > in? It's an on-going process/cycle
                                > > > kind of like using that old "Snow
                                > > > Ball Technique" over and over again.
                                > > >
                                > > > Well, this is all a moot point isn't
                                > > > it. Klemp has no powers... he's a
                                > > > fraud. I can see why he seems meek,
                                > > > at times, since he is aware that it's
                                > > > all a game he's playing and that
                                > > > any day now he'll be discovered
                                > > > for being a fraud. That's why he's
                                > > > not letting ECKists know where
                                > > > all the money is going since he's
                                > > > hide enough away to take care
                                > > > of himself just in case. But, what
                                > > > will that take for more ECKists to
                                > > > see through the facade? I don't know...
                                > > > maybe HK dropping over dead or
                                > > > having a stroke or maybe cancer?
                                > > >
                                > > > Don't get me wrong... I'd never
                                > > > wish that on anyone, but it happens
                                > > > everyday to all kinds of people and
                                > > > even to H.I.s. (of course). Yes, H.I.s
                                > > > are not special, and they get cancer
                                > > > too! Thus, Klemp is not exempt
                                > > > from this happening to him. Look
                                > > > at Twitchell... he didn't predict
                                > > > his heart attack and death! But,
                                > > > according to his own EK scripture
                                > > > (as the LEM/Mahanta) he should
                                > > > have known well in advance as
                                > > > to when he would be translating.
                                > > >
                                > > > However, in "Difficulties Of Being
                                > > > The Living ECK Master" Paul was
                                > > > meeting with his inner circle of
                                > > > H.I.s (in a business meeting) on
                                > > > the day of his death. The notes
                                > > > and comments of that meeting
                                > > > are given here. And, PT was making
                                > > > plans for his future with Eckankar
                                > > > in this meeting. Paul gave no indication
                                > > > (just the opposite) of his impending
                                > > > death on that very same night.
                                > > >
                                > > > This is just one more reason as
                                > > > to why this historical ECK book
                                > > > was not republished by Eckankar
                                > > > (Klemp). It's not like "Difficulties"
                                > > > can't be republished/reprinted
                                > > > since Eckankar has its own printing
                                > > > equipment, does the publishing,
                                > > > and owns PT's copyrights. Thus,
                                > > > this is just one more cover-up
                                > > > showing that Eckankar is simply
                                > > > another false teaching/religion
                                > > > that can't keep it's promises in/for
                                > > > this Here and Now.
                                > > >
                                > > > Prometheus
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > Jonathan wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > Prometheus,
                                > > >
                                > > > Thank you for the comments. I found them to be very helpful and
                                > > very healing.
                                > > >
                                > > > Jonathan
                                > > >
                                > >
                                >
                              • prometheus_973
                                Hello Postekcon and All, I ve really enjoyed the reading the insights from all of the responses. Yes, I was once a Catholic so I know something about the
                                Message 15 of 22 , Sep 19, 2010
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Hello Postekcon and All,
                                  I've really enjoyed the reading the insights
                                  from all of the responses. Yes, I was once
                                  a Catholic so I know something about the
                                  Church's sorted past involving indulgences.
                                  It seems that Klemp has modeled his version
                                  of ECKankar after the Lutheran version of
                                  the Catholic Church. After all, it's what he
                                  was taught in seminary school so why not
                                  go with what's familiar.

                                  If Klemp would have just pulled the names
                                  of some recommended H.I.s from a hat,
                                  BUT those who are Not participating within
                                  "service" areas, it would have given the
                                  impression (although false) that, perhaps,
                                  "inner" qualifications were still valid litmus
                                  tests for Initiation. However, I've never
                                  seen a 7th Initiate who was not, at least,
                                  a cleric, initiator, etc!

                                  What ever happened to "The ECK
                                  Contemplative Order" or whatever it was
                                  called?" I think it's briefly mentioned in
                                  "The Holy Fire of ECK" Book One (pg.60?).

                                  Prometheus

                                  postekcon wrote:
                                  Thank you all for responses...

                                  My reference to the medieval church and the 'indulgences' issue, i.e. money to
                                  church in exchange for remission of sin in the hereafter, was a special point
                                  for HK himself, which he will fully understand from his Lutheran upbringing...

                                  The indulgences issue was the great trigger point for the Protestant
                                  Reformation. The big irony here is LOL; we now see HK and his concocted church
                                  repeating history... 'Service' (time/money) to ekult in exchange for the
                                  remission of sin/karma!

                                  The lem, due to his high initiation level, claims he is god's rep in all
                                  universes. So how come, it is only those who 'service' ekult who are on his
                                  fast-track to spiritual enlightenment?

                                  A question, I know, many ekult devotees ask of themselves! Ekult is a religion
                                  where service to all life is recommended as a way of life! So why is it this
                                  'service' must be in visible form for ekult, for it to actually count as
                                  'service'?
                                  -Postekcon
                                  p.s. in original post, mlm = multi-level-marketing.



                                  Jonathan &

                                  etznab@... wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I could identify with a number of points in
                                  > that appraisal. I liked this part especially:
                                  >
                                  > "BTW- In the business world, when a product
                                  > matches the market forces (consciousness)
                                  > of the day, it is successful; it is never the
                                  > other way round!"
                                  >
                                  > And about the youth, and consciousness,
                                  > the youth of today have easy access to a
                                  > lot more information and sources of inform-
                                  > ation for research purposes, where most of
                                  > the older generations had the library and a
                                  > card catalog.
                                  >
                                  > I'd often thought about Paul Twitchell in the
                                  > library, compiling and researching. And now
                                  > I ask myself: WHY DID IT EVER STOP?
                                  >
                                  > Today, with the resources available, people
                                  > can not only look at materials that Paul T.
                                  > compiled & researched from, but they can
                                  > take it further by continuing to compile and
                                  > research (not forgetting to cite references &
                                  > credit sources, of course). However, how
                                  > much does it happen in organized religion?
                                  > Because, doesn't it challenge the traditional
                                  > existing dogma whenever a person decides
                                  > to improve on it? Or, go beyond it? (Not to
                                  > mention, expose it, give some history of it
                                  > and show where it REALLY came from.)
                                  >
                                  > What are Eckankar's chances of seeing a
                                  > "REFORMATION"? Personally, I think it's
                                  > inevitable. The organization will change, or
                                  > will become another fossil religion. Both of
                                  > these forces are working antagonistic to
                                  > one another in the lives of many people to-
                                  > day, IMO. There is the traditional religious
                                  > dogma and there is the need to change it.
                                  > Some want change, and others are afraid
                                  > of what that will mean to the old cherished
                                  > dogma.
                                  >
                                  > Etznab
                                  >
                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                  > From: postekcon
                                  > This In Order To Vent
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > EKULT, AN APPRAISAL
                                  >
                                  > I remember the ekult I joined 1970's. It seemed alive, vibrant, a
                                  > movement which seemed to know what it was about and where it was going!
                                  > Under the charismatic and artistic leadership of Darwin Gross
                                  > membership numbers grew and grew. Because the movement was 'CURRENT'
                                  > for the consciousness of those times, new members came with minimal
                                  > recruitment effort!
                                  >
                                  > We were excited. Ekult promised us it had the 'tools' to experience
                                  > greater individualism, freedom and spiritual 'unfoldment', and we
                                  > believed the hype! We had grown up in the 'Flower Power' era and
                                  > listening to The Beatles music! We were interested in TM
                                  > (transcendental meditation), we were interested in all things 'eastern'
                                  > and wanted to know more. Paul Twitchell too, was in-tune with this
                                  > consciousness, he was 'CURRENT' for the times. The mail order education
                                  > system he founded, matched those needs. Ignoring all plagiaristic
                                  > issues here, the books and discourses he compiled from the works of
                                  > other authors satisfied us for several years.
                                  >
                                  > However consciousness, being fluid, changes, moves on and around and
                                  > ekult got left behind! Ekult shot itself in the foot, the day it gave
                                  > leadership to Harold Klemp. Unlike Paul Twitchell he has never been
                                  > able to tune-in to the consciousness (keep 'current'), produce or even
                                  > 'compile' works which are dynamic and relevant for the times.
                                  >
                                  > BTW- In the business world, when a product matches the market forces
                                  > (consciousness) of the day, it is successful; it is never the other way
                                  > round!
                                  >
                                  > You might like to observe the consciousness of youth and those who are
                                  > under 30 years of age. They tend to live life to the extreme to the
                                  > edge of experience e.g. extreme sports etc. They show NO fear of the
                                  > creation of either sin or karma, or of the consequences of either,
                                  > whether now or in a hereafter. This is why a karma-based, savior-style
                                  > religion like the one HK develops makes no sense to their
                                  > consciousness. Even their devoted ekult parents have been unable to
                                  > indoctrinate them in ekult ways once they've left the childhood years.
                                  > (HK himself included as such a parent, I believe!).
                                  >
                                  > Ekult is an organization born out of human arrogance! Consider this!
                                  > What level of human arrogance is shown, where an earthly organization
                                  > claims it has commandeered the very spirit of god (energy of the
                                  > universe); claims it can trademark it in earthly law and then proceed
                                  > to market it for profit!! This reminds me of a certain medieval
                                  > church? It too claimed it had commandeered the way of 'salvation' for
                                  > the gullible populace. That medieval church, with its
                                  > resa-structure-style network of upwards reporting, soon descended the
                                  > slippery slope to the 'Inquisition'. History has a habit of repeating
                                  > itself.
                                  >
                                  > Perhaps if ekult had stayed with its original brief and admitted openly
                                  > to the world, it had been founded as a 'reference' point for the best
                                  > available philosophies and theories for living life, like a Wikipedia,
                                  > then it might have remained 'CURRENT'. If only it had cleaned up its
                                  > act, it could have evolved as an altruistic service and been of benefit
                                  > to mankind today. Instead, seeing the opportunity for financial gain,
                                  > HK and owner/s colluded to formulate yet another dead religion to add
                                  > the world's list. The modus operandi reminds me again of that medieval
                                  > church which once sold indulgences i.e. money to church in exchange for
                                  > remission of sins in the hereafter! Similarly ekult devotees can gain
                                  > prominence (get noticed) by spending lots of own time and money in
                                  > ekult 'service', and are often rewarded with faster progress through
                                  > the 'initiation' process. To put this very simply, in ekult, receipt of
                                  > the next initiation signifies the remission of some sin (karma)!
                                  >
                                  > 'Service' to ekult is always emphasized and hyped as being direct
                                  > service to the spirit of god! But Catch22 here as ekult also says the
                                  > true godhead is a Being so detached, it has no interest whether mortals
                                  > service it or not! What a clever ruse to induce 'service' for ekult
                                  > coffers and hide its mlm business model. For those of you who may be
                                  > unfamiliar with how ekult sources funding. In addition to church-plate
                                  > style donations etc., ekult followers (like mlm affiliates) are
                                  > expected to service promotional events and fund from their personal
                                  > wallet promotional materials and products. More importantly, there is
                                  > also a legal understanding that donations, collected at local level,
                                  > belong to ekult HQ, and amounts are uploaded accordingly!
                                  >
                                  > In conclusion, what of any future for ekult there is none it's
                                  > already too late? To my observations what remains are isolated pockets
                                  > of ekult devotees mostly seniors, mostly single females! Grayed-out,
                                  > like inactive pc commands, I note the dynamism and energy, I once
                                  > admired, is long long dead, while larger and ever larger pics of their
                                  > cultic leader casts its shadow over them.
                                  > -Postekcon
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