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Re: All ECKists Should Respond To This In Order To Vent

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  • avonblue1212
    In my opinion eckankar is the Amway of the spiritual world.
    Message 1 of 22 , Sep 13, 2010
      In my opinion eckankar is the Amway of the spiritual world.

      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
      >
      > I'm asking all of the lurking ECKists,
      > here, to respond and vent their
      > frustrations with Klemp, Eckankar,
      > their RESA, etc.
      >
      > What is it that you don't like, but have
      > to keep to yourself?
      >
      > How's that local ECK Newsletter going?
      >
      > How are the Satsang classes doing?
      >
      > When's the last time Klemp wrote a
      > discourse? Oh well, he's got more
      > important things on his mind like
      > his next worthless redundant book.
      >
      > NOTE: Don't share your unhappiness
      > with this site I understand that. Instead,
      > share about what bugs you about your
      > RESA, about Eckankar, about Klemp or
      > the ECK Teachings in general etc.
      >
      > What would get you Black Listed, demoted,
      > or shunned by fellow ECKists if you chose
      > to speak you mind and not bite your tongue.
      > Share your true, repressed, feelings about
      > the direction ECKankar has taken over the
      > past 28 years.
      >
      > How's are those ECK Worship Services?
      > Do the topics seem limited and/or need
      > to be from an "pre-approved" list? How
      > are the turnouts for those HU Chants and
      > Open Houses? Low to zero I'll bet. Still,
      > Klemp needs to sell his materials...
      > because you will have good karma and
      > be noticed for that next initiation approval.
      >
      > Lurkers: Start another Yahoo account in
      > order to share anonymously. We want to
      > hear about the real Eckankar that EKists
      > aren't permitted to discuss openly or
      > even behind closed doors!
      >
      > BTW- Former ECKists and members of
      > ESA can, also, share what their complaints
      > were back when they/we were still
      > ECKists.
      >
      > One thing that I never liked is that
      > I could not criticize anything, or
      > anyone's behaviour when I saw
      > something wrong or out of place.
      > This was one reason as to why I
      > volunteered for leadership positions
      > and was promoted to high Satsang
      > positions. I could now change pictures
      > etc. in the ECK Center. Still, I had
      > to be very careful as to how I approached
      > some things and some people who
      > were not following the Guidelines,
      > as well as, those ECKists with behavioural/
      > psychological problems. This, at times,
      > was like walking upon eggshells.
      >
      > My first RESA was very rigid, analytical,
      > critical, intimidating, insensitive, controlling,
      > detail/business oriented, hot and cold,
      > suspicious and thought she could read
      > people's minds! She did have her good-
      > sides, but when she was focused upon
      > her ECK duties she became too serious
      > and put her guard up. This caused her
      > "good-side" to fluctuate off/on. What's
      > even funnier is that she was one of Klemp's
      > top RESAs and is probably still on a short
      > list for the 8th initiation. I admit that
      > I did learn a lot about the internal workings
      > of the ECKankar org from her even
      > though I had to take some abuse from
      > her from time-to-time. The key is to
      > keep smiling and act happy regardless!
      > This is a big part of playing HK's game.
      >
      > Anyway, It was a challenge to get on
      > her good-side and nobody wanted to
      > be on her bad-side. I saw that happen
      > every now and then and it wasn't pretty.
      > She had a hot/quick temper too!
      > IMO-Her main weaknesses were
      > in thinking too highly of herself (as
      > a RESA and a Guardian) and too highly
      > of her mental and "spiritual" abilities
      > and authority. Some of the people/EK
      > issues that she felt she had problems
      > with were actually very trivial in the large
      > scheme of things. There was, also, a
      > lot of micro-management and "looking
      > over the shoulder" taking place. She
      > definitely contributed to several H.I.s
      > pulling back and dropping out-of-sight.
      > She probably saw it as good riddance
      > or if you can't take the heat... Then again,
      > if the "quality" of belief or ability or
      > "consciousness" was ever an issue to
      > begin with, then, why have so many
      > duds/losers been promoted to the 5th,
      > 6th and 7th Initiations? That was another
      > question that couldn't really be asked.
      > Except, one typical answer is that,
      > "consciousness comes and goes daily
      > or moment to moment and even ECK
      > Masters can fall." However, that's also
      > why Klemp's words hold no real value
      > either. When he changes his on-stage
      > talks he could be coming from a KAL
      > state of consciousness. Thus, this lower
      > consciousness gets broadcast, recorded,
      > and transcribed into books. Or, what HK
      > doesn't change can be from a lower,
      > fluctuating, state of con as well.
      >
      > Still, I had to be careful and could not
      > criticize anything outside of my local
      > Satsang area. The nonsense and orders
      > coming from the ESC could Not be
      > questioned (although I would at times).
      > They wanted us to set up experimental
      > programs and trainings to see if these
      > could be used nation or worldwide.
      > Of course other select Satsang areas
      > were doing the same thing or had a
      > different assignment. It amounted to
      > a lot of "busy work" and some things
      > did eventually get implemented but
      > much was never accepted and was
      > discarded or filed away at the ESC.
      > Plus, it took forever to get a definitive
      > answer on anything, except membership
      > issues, from the ESC.
      >
      > The Early Vahana Projects were, also,
      > used to "shake the tree" in order to reveal
      > future EK leaders (worker bees). Today,
      > "projects" are still used for this purpose.
      > Unfortunately, the ongoing public promotion
      > of ECKankar, and of Klemp, has nothing
      > to do with real Spiritual growth and God-
      > Realization. That was why I joined ECKankar
      > in the first place! It Wasn't to bring in
      > money for Klemp's palaces!
      >
      > BTW- It really is too bad that we can't see
      > where ALL the ECKankar money goes... payroll,
      > retirement, houses, stocks and bonds, cars,
      > health insurance, real estate investments,
      > foreign bank accounts, etc. I'll bet the EK
      > Board doesn't get to see a detailed list either.
      >
      > Basically, these are the four main principles
      > that Klemp has ECKists follow:
      >
      > 1. the Inflow-outflow karma/growth principle;
      > 2. the Co-worker with God principle;
      > 3. the selling of ECKankar/Klemp principle;
      > 4. the Initiation carrot principle.
      >
      > These four HK/EK principles take precedence
      > over everything else. In fact, there is no other
      > focus.
      >
      > Prometheus
      >
    • etznab@aol.com
      Reply to thread. See post by Etznab in context to the following a.r.e. thread. http://tinyurl.com/2dpl4ol
      Message 2 of 22 , Sep 13, 2010
        Reply to thread.

        See post by Etznab in context to the
        following a.r.e. thread.

        http://tinyurl.com/2dpl4ol

        http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.eckankar/browse_thread/thread/80cec5e262434d8b/4bd2b9a988c1bcbe?hl=en#4bd2b9a988c1bcbe

        -----Original Message-----
        From: avonblue1212 <gowiththeflow1212@...>
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Mon, Sep 13, 2010 6:21 am
        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: All ECKists Should Respond To
        This In Order To Vent

         
        In my opinion eckankar is the Amway of the spiritual world.

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
        <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
        >
        > I'm asking all of the lurking ECKists,
        > here, to respond and vent their
        > frustrations with Klemp, Eckankar,
        > their RESA, etc.
        >
        > What is it that you don't like, but have
        > to keep to yourself?
        >
        > How's that local ECK Newsletter going?
        >
        > How are the Satsang classes doing?
        >
        > When's the last time Klemp wrote a
        > discourse? Oh well, he's got more
        > important things on his mind like
        > his next worthless redundant book.
        >
        > NOTE: Don't share your unhappiness
        > with this site I understand that. Instead,
        > share about what bugs you about your
        > RESA, about Eckankar, about Klemp or
        > the ECK Teachings in general etc.
        >
        > What would get you Black Listed, demoted,
        > or shunned by fellow ECKists if you chose
        > to speak you mind and not bite your tongue.
        > Share your true, repressed, feelings about
        > the direction ECKankar has taken over the
        > past 28 years.
        >
        > How's are those ECK Worship Services?
        > Do the topics seem limited and/or need
        > to be from an "pre-approved" list? How
        > are the turnouts for those HU Chants and
        > Open Houses? Low to zero I'll bet. Still,
        > Klemp needs to sell his materials...
        > because you will have good karma and
        > be noticed for that next initiation approval.
        >
        > Lurkers: Start another Yahoo account in
        > order to share anonymously. We want to
        > hear about the real Eckankar that EKists
        > aren't permitted to discuss openly or
        > even behind closed doors!
        >
        > BTW- Former ECKists and members of
        > ESA can, also, share what their complaints
        > were back when they/we were still
        > ECKists.
        >
        > One thing that I never liked is that
        > I could not criticize anything, or
        > anyone's behaviour when I saw
        > something wrong or out of place.
        > This was one reason as to why I
        > volunteered for leadership positions
        > and was promoted to high Satsang
        > positions. I could now change pictures
        > etc. in the ECK Center. Still, I had
        > to be very careful as to how I approached
        > some things and some people who
        > were not following the Guidelines,
        > as well as, those ECKists with behavioural/
        > psychological problems. This, at times,
        > was like walking upon eggshells.
        >
        > My first RESA was very rigid, analytical,
        > critical, intimidating, insensitive, controlling,
        > detail/business oriented, hot and cold,
        > suspicious and thought she could read
        > people's minds! She did have her good-
        > sides, but when she was focused upon
        > her ECK duties she became too serious
        > and put her guard up. This caused her
        > "good-side" to fluctuate off/on. What's
        > even funnier is that she was one of Klemp's
        > top RESAs and is probably still on a short
        > list for the 8th initiation. I admit that
        > I did learn a lot about the internal workings
        > of the ECKankar org from her even
        > though I had to take some abuse from
        > her from time-to-time. The key is to
        > keep smiling and act happy regardless!
        > This is a big part of playing HK's game.
        >
        > Anyway, It was a challenge to get on
        > her good-side and nobody wanted to
        > be on her bad-side. I saw that happen
        > every now and then and it wasn't pretty.
        > She had a hot/quick temper too!
        > IMO-Her main weaknesses were
        > in thinking too highly of herself (as
        > a RESA and a Guardian) and too highly
        > of her mental and "spiritual" abilities
        > and authority. Some of the people/EK
        > issues that she felt she had problems
        > with were actually very trivial in the large
        > scheme of things. There was, also, a
        > lot of micro-management and "looking
        > over the shoulder" taking place. She
        > definitely contributed to several H.I.s
        > pulling back and dropping out-of-sight.
        > She probably saw it as good riddance
        > or if you can't take the heat... Then again,
        > if the "quality" of belief or ability or
        > "consciousness" was ever an issue to
        > begin with, then, why have so many
        > duds/losers been promoted to the 5th,
        > 6th and 7th Initiations? That was another
        > question that couldn't really be asked.
        > Except, one typical answer is that,
        > "consciousness comes and goes daily
        > or moment to moment and even ECK
        > Masters can fall." However, that's also
        > why Klemp's words hold no real value
        > either. When he changes his on-stage
        > talks he could be coming from a KAL
        > state of consciousness. Thus, this lower
        > consciousness gets broadcast, recorded,
        > and transcribed into books. Or, what HK
        > doesn't change can be from a lower,
        > fluctuating, state of con as well.
        >
        > Still, I had to be careful and could not
        > criticize anything outside of my local
        > Satsang area. The nonsense and orders
        > coming from the ESC could Not be
        > questioned (although I would at times).
        > They wanted us to set up experimental
        > programs and trainings to see if these
        > could be used nation or worldwide.
        > Of course other select Satsang areas
        > were doing the same thing or had a
        > different assignment. It amounted to
        > a lot of "busy work" and some things
        > did eventually get implemented but
        > much was never accepted and was
        > discarded or filed away at the ESC.
        > Plus, it took forever to get a definitive
        > answer on anything, except membership
        > issues, from the ESC.
        >
        > The Early Vahana Projects were, also,
        > used to "shake the tree" in order to reveal
        > future EK leaders (worker bees). Today,
        > "projects" are still used for this purpose.
        > Unfortunately, the ongoing public promotion
        > of ECKankar, and of Klemp, has nothing
        > to do with real Spiritual growth and God-
        > Realization. That was why I joined ECKankar
        > in the first place! It Wasn't to bring in
        > money for Klemp's palaces!
        >
        > BTW- It really is too bad that we can't see
        > where ALL the ECKankar money goes... payroll,
        > retirement, houses, stocks and bonds, cars,
        > health insurance, real estate investments,
        > foreign bank accounts, etc. I'll bet the EK
        > Board doesn't get to see a detailed list either.
        >
        > Basically, these are the four main principles
        > that Klemp has ECKists follow:
        >
        > 1. the Inflow-outflow karma/growth principle;
        > 2. the Co-worker with God principle;
        > 3. the selling of ECKankar/Klemp principle;
        > 4. the Initiation carrot principle.
        >
        > These four HK/EK principles take precedence
        > over everything else. In fact, there is no other
        > focus.
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
      • prometheus_973
        Hello Avonblue and All, I agree that Eckankar is the Amway of the spiritual world, although, Amway does have many products that actually work versus the
        Message 3 of 22 , Sep 13, 2010
          Hello Avonblue and All,
          I agree that "Eckankar is the
          Amway of the spiritual world,"
          although, Amway does have
          many products that actually
          work versus the products Klemp
          sells!

          BTW- I was looking at Eckankar's
          June 2010 The Mystic World and
          saw that Klemp was promoting
          PT's false lineage dogma by using
          quotes from PT's "Stranger By
          The River," "The Riddle of God."
          Klemp likes to refer to Twit as
          Peddar Zaskq and to quote Rebazar.
          But I was wondering, once again
          as I did when I was an ECKist,
          Why does Rebazar speak using
          words like "thee' and "ye?" This
          "Torch Bearer" and former Mahanta
          who is over 500 years old and
          who can travel anywhere physically
          or otherwise and who PT claimed
          trained him apparently stepped in
          as the LEM (for Sudar/Kirpal) and
          handed Twitchell the Rod of ECK
          Power... still speaks using thee
          and ye?

          Hmmmmm? That's another thing.
          Does Rebazar only "travel" on the
          "inner planes" via his Soul Body
          or does he also "travel" and reappear
          in his Physical Body? If RT does "travel"
          and reassemble his atoms or whatever
          to get here and there then why doesn't
          he ever speak at Major EK Seminars?
          Why can't Klemp do these same things
          and, at least, slow down his own aging
          process? It's quite a fantasy isn't it?
          It sounds like another "Talons of Time"
          novel of PT's. I wonder if RT has any
          unknown "Spiderman" abilities too?

          There are so many questions that
          ECKists can't and won't ask, or even
          think about! Why? Because they don't
          want to know the truth. They're afraid
          of the answers. Realizing the Truth
          would mean that their comfortable
          little world would collapse and then
          what? What does one replace a religion
          with? Well, not with another religion...
          that's what we did in joining Eckankar.

          Plus, what happens with those wasted
          years and initiations and those EK
          friends? But, the Freedom from Religion
          is great! It's a new area of exploration
          and is well worth the trouble and
          change. It's the original path that
          Soul was always seeking... freedom
          from Dogma and of those being placed
          upon a pedestal over you (Soul).

          Basically, religions serve a purpose
          when we are young, immature, naive
          and are still growing and exploring
          our higher possibilities. But, all religions
          eventually need to be dropped away
          before they become obsessive and
          codependent traps. However, most
          people will always need a religion
          and to be led around by others. Those
          "followers" are not seeking or able
          to realize the true Self or else they
          would not place themselves on the
          lower rungs of "initiation" ladders.

          There aren't that many Souls who still
          believe in (Know) and experience "God"
          and the Holy Spirit, or whatever one wants
          to call this Divine Force/Intelligence, and
          Who Don't Belong to a Religion! These truly
          Free One's are unique!

          Prometheus


          avonblue gowiththeflow wrote:
          In my opinion eckankar is the Amway of the spiritual world.

          prometheus wrote:

          > I'm asking all of the lurking ECKists,
          > here, to respond and vent their
          > frustrations with Klemp, Eckankar,
          > their RESA, etc.
          >
          > What is it that you don't like, but have
          > to keep to yourself?
          >
          > How's that local ECK Newsletter going?
          >
          > How are the Satsang classes doing?
          >
          > When's the last time Klemp wrote a
          > discourse? Oh well, he's got more
          > important things on his mind like
          > his next worthless redundant book.
          >
          > NOTE: Don't share your unhappiness
          > with this site I understand that. Instead,
          > share about what bugs you about your
          > RESA, about Eckankar, about Klemp or
          > the ECK Teachings in general etc.
          >
          > What would get you Black Listed, demoted,
          > or shunned by fellow ECKists if you chose
          > to speak you mind and not bite your tongue.
          > Share your true, repressed, feelings about
          > the direction ECKankar has taken over the
          > past 28 years.
          >
          > How's are those ECK Worship Services?
          > Do the topics seem limited and/or need
          > to be from an "pre-approved" list? How
          > are the turnouts for those HU Chants and
          > Open Houses? Low to zero I'll bet. Still,
          > Klemp needs to sell his materials...
          > because you will have good karma and
          > be noticed for that next initiation approval.
          >
          > Lurkers: Start another Yahoo account in
          > order to share anonymously. We want to
          > hear about the real Eckankar that EKists
          > aren't permitted to discuss openly or
          > even behind closed doors!
          >
          > BTW- Former ECKists and members of
          > ESA can, also, share what their complaints
          > were back when they/we were still
          > ECKists.
          >
          > One thing that I never liked is that
          > I could not criticize anything, or
          > anyone's behaviour when I saw
          > something wrong or out of place.
          > This was one reason as to why I
          > volunteered for leadership positions
          > and was promoted to high Satsang
          > positions. I could now change pictures
          > etc. in the ECK Center. Still, I had
          > to be very careful as to how I approached
          > some things and some people who
          > were not following the Guidelines,
          > as well as, those ECKists with behavioural/
          > psychological problems. This, at times,
          > was like walking upon eggshells.
          >
          > My first RESA was very rigid, analytical,
          > critical, intimidating, insensitive, controlling,
          > detail/business oriented, hot and cold,
          > suspicious and thought she could read
          > people's minds! She did have her good-
          > sides, but when she was focused upon
          > her ECK duties she became too serious
          > and put her guard up. This caused her
          > "good-side" to fluctuate off/on. What's
          > even funnier is that she was one of Klemp's
          > top RESAs and is probably still on a short
          > list for the 8th initiation. I admit that
          > I did learn a lot about the internal workings
          > of the ECKankar org from her even
          > though I had to take some abuse from
          > her from time-to-time. The key is to
          > keep smiling and act happy regardless!
          > This is a big part of playing HK's game.
          >
          > Anyway, It was a challenge to get on
          > her good-side and nobody wanted to
          > be on her bad-side. I saw that happen
          > every now and then and it wasn't pretty.
          > She had a hot/quick temper too!
          > IMO-Her main weaknesses were
          > in thinking too highly of herself (as
          > a RESA and a Guardian) and too highly
          > of her mental and "spiritual" abilities
          > and authority. Some of the people/EK
          > issues that she felt she had problems
          > with were actually very trivial in the large
          > scheme of things. There was, also, a
          > lot of micro-management and "looking
          > over the shoulder" taking place. She
          > definitely contributed to several H.I.s
          > pulling back and dropping out-of-sight.
          > She probably saw it as good riddance
          > or if you can't take the heat... Then again,
          > if the "quality" of belief or ability or
          > "consciousness" was ever an issue to
          > begin with, then, why have so many
          > duds/losers been promoted to the 5th,
          > 6th and 7th Initiations? That was another
          > question that couldn't really be asked.
          > Except, one typical answer is that,
          > "consciousness comes and goes daily
          > or moment to moment and even ECK
          > Masters can fall." However, that's also
          > why Klemp's words hold no real value
          > either. When he changes his on-stage
          > talks he could be coming from a KAL
          > state of consciousness. Thus, this lower
          > consciousness gets broadcast, recorded,
          > and transcribed into books. Or, what HK
          > doesn't change can be from a lower,
          > fluctuating, state of con as well.
          >
          > Still, I had to be careful and could not
          > criticize anything outside of my local
          > Satsang area. The nonsense and orders
          > coming from the ESC could Not be
          > questioned (although I would at times).
          > They wanted us to set up experimental
          > programs and trainings to see if these
          > could be used nation or worldwide.
          > Of course other select Satsang areas
          > were doing the same thing or had a
          > different assignment. It amounted to
          > a lot of "busy work" and some things
          > did eventually get implemented but
          > much was never accepted and was
          > discarded or filed away at the ESC.
          > Plus, it took forever to get a definitive
          > answer on anything, except membership
          > issues, from the ESC.
          >
          > The Early Vahana Projects were, also,
          > used to "shake the tree" in order to reveal
          > future EK leaders (worker bees). Today,
          > "projects" are still used for this purpose.
          > Unfortunately, the ongoing public promotion
          > of ECKankar, and of Klemp, has nothing
          > to do with real Spiritual growth and God-
          > Realization. That was why I joined ECKankar
          > in the first place! It Wasn't to bring in
          > money for Klemp's palaces!
          >
          > BTW- It really is too bad that we can't see
          > where ALL the ECKankar money goes... payroll,
          > retirement, houses, stocks and bonds, cars,
          > health insurance, real estate investments,
          > foreign bank accounts, etc. I'll bet the EK
          > Board doesn't get to see a detailed list either.
          >
          > Basically, these are the four main principles
          > that Klemp has ECKists follow:
          >
          > 1. the Inflow-outflow karma/growth principle;
          > 2. the Co-worker with God principle;
          > 3. the selling of ECKankar/Klemp principle;
          > 4. the Initiation carrot principle.
          >
          > These four HK/EK principles take precedence
          > over everything else. In fact, there is no other
          > focus.
          >
          > Prometheus
        • jonathanjohns96
          Promethus and all, #2 A few more comments about Eckankar s curses. I d like to mention something for the benefit of those of you who haven t been able to
          Message 4 of 22 , Sep 13, 2010
            Promethus and all,

            #2
            A few more comments about Eckankar's curses.

            I'd like to mention something for the benefit of those of you who haven't been able to followed all the past discussionss on this message board. I was over at a.r.e. (the Google Group alt.religion.eckankar) talking about something and one of the Eckists over there said that I was "regurgitating" (their words) Prometheus' old theory about..... I don't even remember exactly what the subject for discussion was, but it doesn't matter. I very adamantly pointed out to them, that, yes, I agree with a lot of what Prometheus says, but I had figured it all out long before I read about Prometheus discussing it on this message board. So I am not copying Prometheus and Prometheus has never copied me. We both are very independently-minded people and it just so happens that we came to many of the same conclusions about what was/is going on in Eckankar. I did not even read ET or ESA until Dec 17 (the day I quit Eckankar) or Dec 18 in 2008. It was around that time; please forgive my bad memory.

            And when I started reading Ford Johnson's book (1-3 months before I left Eckankar?) I had the exact same experience. As I was reading his book I clearly remember when Ford was talking about Eckankar's curses. and I said to myself "Yes! Ford saw it too!" It made me feel better for two reasons. First of all, Ford is a very intelligent person. Secondly he was a 7th initiate and 29 year member of Eckankar so he obviously knew the teachings of Eckankar as well as anyone. And so I said to myself "If Ford saw it too, I'm obviously not hallucinating or imagining things." My recollection is that Ford said that he was late in seeing them. I believe he said he never noticed them in his first 20 years in Eckankar. I really think the reason I noticed them so early in Eckankar is because they struck fear in me at the time I read them.

            So the curses in Eckankar seem to affect some people, but not others. Prometheus, I believe that you have said in the past that they didn't affect you, or that you even doubted their effectiveness. I think the truth is that they affect some people, but not others.

            #3
            Prometheus said about the Eckankar Worship Service:

            "The EWS is normally scheduled on Sundays to
            compete with the Christian Worship Services
            and for Klemp to fit-in with his fellow religious
            leaders in the Minneapolis community by having
            Sunday Worship Services. This seems or gives
            the appearance of being less cult like too."

            JJ - I'm not sure Klemp is trying to compete with the Christian Worship Services, that's awfully optimistic of Eckankar, but I agree fully with the rest of your statement.

            EWS - - > Eckankar looks more like Christianity
            EWS - - > Eckankar looks less cult-like

            But you jogged my memory of something that I had somehow completely forgotten about. Awhile ago (pre 1999?) I was looking at a Sunday newspaper at the ads for churches and their Sunday church services. In the newspaper, each church of many different Christian denominations had their own little ad. You may not believe what I just remembered. There was an ad for "Eckankar Church." And it was mixed right in with all of the Christian worship services! I was gobsmacked. I said to myself "How the heck did that get in there!?" In other words, I thought surely that the editor of the newspaper had made a mistake.

            But as I look back on it now, I realize what really happened. Some Eckist had snuck that in there while attempting to pass Eckankar off as "being like Christianity." And this was in a very conservative part of the United States. I bet the editor(s) at the newspaper just about went through the roof when they found out the truth about the "Eckankar Church." That it wasn't a Christian Church.

            Oh well. It just proves how far members of Eckankar will go to try to hoodwink the public. I'm very glad I remembered this. I remember it very clearly though. When I saw the words "Eckankar Church" I was just about screaming at the newspaper "How can you call Eckankar a church?" It was if I was insulted. After all, how could someone compare a mere church to Eckankar? (my programming as an Eckist).

            I was so naive back then. This was before I had started to notice the Christianization of Eckankar. The Chistianization was there, but I just wasn't seeing it for what it was.

            #6
            Prometheus wrote:

            "H.I.s, supposedly, are more advanced (via
            initiation) than the 4th Plane God that ALL
            non-ECKists on the planet worships!"

            Right again, Prometheus. And you mentioned something very important that I didn't think of in my previous comments on this topic. And it is VERY applicable to me. That is, I had extremely high expectations of these people. After all, wasn't I being taught that Eckankar is the highest religion of them all? And that all other religions in the World have sprung out of Eckankar? My gosh! Then these people in Eckankar who were the "higher initiates" should be super amazing, super great, and super awesome! So yes, my expectations were very very high.

            And then when these people didn't just fall below my expectations, but fell WAY below, it was hard on me. And I seriously started to wonder "Are these people really as high as they are supposed to be? As high I as I think they are?" So it did affect me. I think that, consistent with my personality of being disappointed with others, I just withdrew from the whole thing and lived in my own world of Twitchell's books. I'll admit that I did enjoy Klemp's tapes too (I guess I shouldn't admit that here). But most of his books were boring, and were in many cases just "reprints" of the exact same stories in his tapes.

            So, Prometheus, I actually admire you for being actively involved in Eckankar because I couldn't handle it. So your experiences led to a very different experience with Eckankar. I always have been a loner, and after having only a few bad interactions with members of Eckankar, I withdrew into my own world which also means that I pretty much stopped going to Eckankar meetings. This all happened very early in my interaction with Eckankar: probably mid 1980s (I joined in 1979).

            Toward the end of my time in Eckankar, I started attending a lot more EWSs. I think I was in a situation where I wanted to give Eckankar a chance to prove itself to me. I was getting very cynical about the whole thing by now. But the more I went to ESWs, and the more I interacted with Eckists, the more I got a really bad impression of them. I mean, they all had their good qualities too. But what bothered me was the blind dedication that these people had toward Eckankar, and how they would defend Eckankar no matter what. It was very disturbing to me.

            And so I finally did decide that there just too many negatives.
          • jonathanjohns96
            Promethues wrote: But I was wondering, once again as I did when I was an ECKist, Why does Rebazar speak using words like thee and ye? This Torch Bearer
            Message 5 of 22 , Sep 13, 2010
              Promethues wrote:

              "But I was wondering, once again
              as I did when I was an ECKist,
              Why does Rebazar speak using
              words like "thee' and "ye?" This
              "Torch Bearer" and former Mahanta
              who is over 500 years old and
              who can travel anywhere physically
              or otherwise and who PT claimed
              trained him apparently stepped in
              as the LEM (for Sudar/Kirpal) and
              handed Twitchell the Rod of ECK
              Power... still speaks using thee
              and ye?"

              JJ - After I stopped laughing at your funny comment, I started thinking. "Isn't this ye and thee stuff actually Old English? And the reason that it sounds Holy in a traditional Christian sort of way is because some of the old versions of the Bible were written in Old English?

              And so I turned to that "bastion of truth." That "torchbearer of all things correct." Not Eckankar, but, Wikipedia:

              Wikipedia - Thou
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou
              "Most modern English speakers encounter "thou" only in the works of Shakespeare, in the works of other medieval and early modern writers, and in the King James Bible.

              So after realizing that in this case it looks like I was correct, I wondered about a few things:

              1. Rebazar is 500 years old. How old is Old English?
              2. Regardless of the answer to #1, how and why did Rebazar learn to speak Old English?

              Wikipedia - Old English
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_english
              "Old English (Englisc, Anglisc, Ænglisc) or Anglo-Saxon[1] is an early form of the English language that was spoken and written by the Anglo-Saxons and their descendants in parts of what are now England and south-eastern Scotland between at least the mid-5th century and the mid-12th century."

              Wikipedia - 5th Century
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_century
              "The 5th century is the period from 401 to 500 in accordance with the Julian calendar in Anno Domini/Common Era."

              Wikipedia - 12th Century
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_century
              "As a means of recording the passage of time, the 12th century is the period from 1101 to 1200 in accordance with the Julian calendar in the Christian/Common Era."

              Rebazar's birth year
              1965-500=1465

              If Rebazar was 35 years old in 1500, that means he was speaking Old English about 350 years after it had died out in England and Scotland.

              Ok, I admit it it. I have no idea what any of this proves...

              - - - - - - - - - - -

              UPDATE: Maybe I do know what it proves. Maybe Twitchell knew that most Americans, being of a Christian background, would associate Old English with the Bible. In other words, with Holy writings or spiritual truth.

              I knew that Twitchell stole some verses from the Bible, but I never thought about this before. The fact that Twitchell may have had Rebazar use the words thee and ye in order to create a spiritual-like persona for Rebazar.

              I'm wondering whether Ford Johnson mentioned this. He must have.

              Search results of "Confessions"

              "old english" - no occurrences
              "king james" - one occurrence (p 117) but not related to a discussion of Twitchell's use of thee and ye.
              "thee" - numerous, but Ford actually uses the word 'thee' in some of his HCS affirmations.

              But Ford is allowed to use thee since he was raised in the United States. Plus, I think that if Ford was questioned, he would acknowledge that he probably got the word "thee" from reading the King James version of the Bible. I don't think Twitchell would acknowledge that Rebazar got the word "thee" from reading the King James version of the Bible, or from somehow being exposed to Old English which was spoken from 450 to 1150.

              Questions for further study.
              1. Did all the Eck masters use thee and ye? Or just Rebazar?
              2. Did these Eck masters speak that way just because they knew Twitchell would feel comfortable with it?
              3. Did any of Paul's actual gurus such as Kirpal Singh or Premananda use thee and ye in their speech?
            • jonathanjohns96
              All, I know that some member of Eckankar is going to say Maybe Rebazar was reading the KIng James version of the Bible. My answer to that is that Eckankar
              Message 6 of 22 , Sep 13, 2010
                All,

                I know that some member of Eckankar is going to say "Maybe Rebazar was reading the KIng James version of the Bible."

                My answer to that is that Eckankar teaches that all religions came from Ecknakar. That means that Christianity came from Eckankar. So why would Rebazar have been reading the Bible?"

                Oh, OK. Now I get it! How could I have been so stupid! Rebazar Tarz was the person who originated Old English!

                Jonathan


                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96" <jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:
                >
                > Promethues wrote:
                >
                > "But I was wondering, once again
                > as I did when I was an ECKist,
                > Why does Rebazar speak using
                > words like "thee' and "ye?" This
                > "Torch Bearer" and former Mahanta
                > who is over 500 years old and
                > who can travel anywhere physically
                > or otherwise and who PT claimed
                > trained him apparently stepped in
                > as the LEM (for Sudar/Kirpal) and
                > handed Twitchell the Rod of ECK
                > Power... still speaks using thee
                > and ye?"
                >
                > JJ - After I stopped laughing at your funny comment, I started thinking. "Isn't this ye and thee stuff actually Old English? And the reason that it sounds Holy in a traditional Christian sort of way is because some of the old versions of the Bible were written in Old English?
                >
                > And so I turned to that "bastion of truth." That "torchbearer of all things correct." Not Eckankar, but, Wikipedia:
                >
                > Wikipedia - Thou
                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou
                > "Most modern English speakers encounter "thou" only in the works of Shakespeare, in the works of other medieval and early modern writers, and in the King James Bible.
                >
                > So after realizing that in this case it looks like I was correct, I wondered about a few things:
                >
                > 1. Rebazar is 500 years old. How old is Old English?
                > 2. Regardless of the answer to #1, how and why did Rebazar learn to speak Old English?
                >
                > Wikipedia - Old English
                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_english
                > "Old English (Englisc, Anglisc, Ænglisc) or Anglo-Saxon[1] is an early form of the English language that was spoken and written by the Anglo-Saxons and their descendants in parts of what are now England and south-eastern Scotland between at least the mid-5th century and the mid-12th century."
                >
                > Wikipedia - 5th Century
                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_century
                > "The 5th century is the period from 401 to 500 in accordance with the Julian calendar in Anno Domini/Common Era."
                >
                > Wikipedia - 12th Century
                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_century
                > "As a means of recording the passage of time, the 12th century is the period from 1101 to 1200 in accordance with the Julian calendar in the Christian/Common Era."
                >
                > Rebazar's birth year
                > 1965-500=1465
                >
                > If Rebazar was 35 years old in 1500, that means he was speaking Old English about 350 years after it had died out in England and Scotland.
                >
                > Ok, I admit it it. I have no idea what any of this proves...
                >
                > - - - - - - - - - - -
                >
                > UPDATE: Maybe I do know what it proves. Maybe Twitchell knew that most Americans, being of a Christian background, would associate Old English with the Bible. In other words, with Holy writings or spiritual truth.
                >
                > I knew that Twitchell stole some verses from the Bible, but I never thought about this before. The fact that Twitchell may have had Rebazar use the words thee and ye in order to create a spiritual-like persona for Rebazar.
                >
                > I'm wondering whether Ford Johnson mentioned this. He must have.
                >
                > Search results of "Confessions"
                >
                > "old english" - no occurrences
                > "king james" - one occurrence (p 117) but not related to a discussion of Twitchell's use of thee and ye.
                > "thee" - numerous, but Ford actually uses the word 'thee' in some of his HCS affirmations.
                >
                > But Ford is allowed to use thee since he was raised in the United States. Plus, I think that if Ford was questioned, he would acknowledge that he probably got the word "thee" from reading the King James version of the Bible. I don't think Twitchell would acknowledge that Rebazar got the word "thee" from reading the King James version of the Bible, or from somehow being exposed to Old English which was spoken from 450 to 1150.
                >
                > Questions for further study.
                > 1. Did all the Eck masters use thee and ye? Or just Rebazar?
                > 2. Did these Eck masters speak that way just because they knew Twitchell would feel comfortable with it?
                > 3. Did any of Paul's actual gurus such as Kirpal Singh or Premananda use thee and ye in their speech?
                >
              • Drew van Rijk
                Since Rebazar does not exist now, nor did in the past, verily I say unto you he was not reading the bible or creating old english...  LOL ... From:
                Message 7 of 22 , Sep 14, 2010
                  Since Rebazar does not exist now, nor did in the past, verily I say unto you he was not reading the bible or creating old english...  LOL

                  --- On Tue, 9/14/10, jonathanjohns96 <jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:

                  From: jonathanjohns96 <jonathanjohns96@...>
                  Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Thee and ye. What is that?
                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                  Received: Tuesday, September 14, 2010, 1:39 AM

                   

                  All,

                  I know that some member of Eckankar is going to say "Maybe Rebazar was reading the KIng James version of the Bible."

                  My answer to that is that Eckankar teaches that all religions came from Ecknakar. That means that Christianity came from Eckankar. So why would Rebazar have been reading the Bible?"

                  Oh, OK. Now I get it! How could I have been so stupid! Rebazar Tarz was the person who originated Old English!

                  Jonathan

                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96" <jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Promethues wrote:
                  >
                  > "But I was wondering, once again
                  > as I did when I was an ECKist,
                  > Why does Rebazar speak using
                  > words like "thee' and "ye?" This
                  > "Torch Bearer" and former Mahanta
                  > who is over 500 years old and
                  > who can travel anywhere physically
                  > or otherwise and who PT claimed
                  > trained him apparently stepped in
                  > as the LEM (for Sudar/Kirpal) and
                  > handed Twitchell the Rod of ECK
                  > Power... still speaks using thee
                  > and ye?"
                  >
                  > JJ - After I stopped laughing at your funny comment, I started thinking. "Isn't this ye and thee stuff actually Old English? And the reason that it sounds Holy in a traditional Christian sort of way is because some of the old versions of the Bible were written in Old English?
                  >
                  > And so I turned to that "bastion of truth." That "torchbearer of all things correct." Not Eckankar, but, Wikipedia:
                  >
                  > Wikipedia - Thou
                  > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou
                  > "Most modern English speakers encounter "thou" only in the works of Shakespeare, in the works of other medieval and early modern writers, and in the King James Bible.
                  >
                  > So after realizing that in this case it looks like I was correct, I wondered about a few things:
                  >
                  > 1. Rebazar is 500 years old. How old is Old English?
                  > 2. Regardless of the answer to #1, how and why did Rebazar learn to speak Old English?
                  >
                  > Wikipedia - Old English
                  > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_english
                  > "Old English (Englisc, Anglisc, Ænglisc) or Anglo-Saxon[1] is an early form of the English language that was spoken and written by the Anglo-Saxons and their descendants in parts of what are now England and south-eastern Scotland between at least the mid-5th century and the mid-12th century."
                  >
                  > Wikipedia - 5th Century
                  > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_century
                  > "The 5th century is the period from 401 to 500 in accordance with the Julian calendar in Anno Domini/Common Era."
                  >
                  > Wikipedia - 12th Century
                  > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_century
                  > "As a means of recording the passage of time, the 12th century is the period from 1101 to 1200 in accordance with the Julian calendar in the Christian/Common Era."
                  >
                  > Rebazar's birth year
                  > 1965-500=1465
                  >
                  > If Rebazar was 35 years old in 1500, that means he was speaking Old English about 350 years after it had died out in England and Scotland.
                  >
                  > Ok, I admit it it. I have no idea what any of this proves...
                  >
                  > - - - - - - - - - - -
                  >
                  > UPDATE: Maybe I do know what it proves. Maybe Twitchell knew that most Americans, being of a Christian background, would associate Old English with the Bible. In other words, with Holy writings or spiritual truth.
                  >
                  > I knew that Twitchell stole some verses from the Bible, but I never thought about this before. The fact that Twitchell may have had Rebazar use the words thee and ye in order to create a spiritual-like persona for Rebazar.
                  >
                  > I'm wondering whether Ford Johnson mentioned this. He must have.
                  >
                  > Search results of "Confessions"
                  >
                  > "old english" - no occurrences
                  > "king james" - one occurrence (p 117) but not related to a discussion of Twitchell's use of thee and ye.
                  > "thee" - numerous, but Ford actually uses the word 'thee' in some of his HCS affirmations.
                  >
                  > But Ford is allowed to use thee since he was raised in the United States. Plus, I think that if Ford was questioned, he would acknowledge that he probably got the word "thee" from reading the King James version of the Bible. I don't think Twitchell would acknowledge that Rebazar got the word "thee" from reading the King James version of the Bible, or from somehow being exposed to Old English which was spoken from 450 to 1150.
                  >
                  > Questions for further study.
                  > 1. Did all the Eck masters use thee and ye? Or just Rebazar?
                  > 2. Did these Eck masters speak that way just because they knew Twitchell would feel comfortable with it?
                  > 3. Did any of Paul's actual gurus such as Kirpal Singh or Premananda use thee and ye in their speech?
                  >


                • prometheus_973
                  Hello Jonathan and All, Thanks for the responses. I d like to make some additional comments below. [P] jonathanjohns wrote: Promethus and all, #2 A few more
                  Message 8 of 22 , Sep 14, 2010
                    Hello Jonathan and All,
                    Thanks for the responses. I'd like to
                    make some additional comments
                    below. [P]

                    jonathanjohns wrote:

                    Promethus and all,

                    #2
                    A few more comments about Eckankar's curses.

                    I'd like to mention something for the benefit of those of you who haven't been
                    able to followed all the past discussionss on this message board. I was over at
                    a.r.e. (the Google Group alt.religion.eckankar) talking about something and one
                    of the Eckists over there said that I was "regurgitating" (their words)
                    Prometheus' old theory about..... I don't even remember exactly what the subject
                    for discussion was, but it doesn't matter. I very adamantly pointed out to them,
                    that, yes, I agree with a lot of what Prometheus says, but I had figured it all
                    out long before I read about Prometheus discussing it on this message board. So
                    I am not copying Prometheus and Prometheus has never copied me. We both are very
                    independently-minded people and it just so happens that we came to many of the
                    same conclusions about what was/is going on in Eckankar. I did not even read ET
                    or ESA until Dec 17 (the day I quit Eckankar) or Dec 18 in 2008. It was around
                    that time; please forgive my bad memory.



                    ***
                    [P] In past articles I've used the term
                    "regurgitate" when describing what
                    Klemp does when he gives his talks
                    and writes his books. I'm thinking
                    the A.R.E. ECKies are "regurgitating"
                    the words I've used about their "precious"
                    Mahanta.

                    Plus, most people will have the same
                    thoughts, reach the same conclusions
                    and use some of the same words and
                    expressions to communicate their ideas.
                    However, if you ever listen to an ECKist
                    they will sound like an EK Brochure.
                    Only the ECKists that are Unauthorized
                    to speak for Eckankar and go against
                    Klemp's Guidelines and who second
                    guess their Mahanta via Internet sites
                    will speak outside of the required EK
                    speak.
                    ***



                    And when I started reading Ford Johnson's book (1-3 months before I left
                    Eckankar?) I had the exact same experience. As I was reading his book I clearly
                    remember when Ford was talking about Eckankar's curses. and I said to myself
                    "Yes! Ford saw it too!" It made me feel better for two reasons. First of all,
                    Ford is a very intelligent person. Secondly he was a 7th initiate and 29 year
                    member of Eckankar so he obviously knew the teachings of Eckankar as well as
                    anyone. And so I said to myself "If Ford saw it too, I'm obviously not
                    hallucinating or imagining things." My recollection is that Ford said that he
                    was late in seeing them. I believe he said he never noticed them in his first 20
                    years in Eckankar. I really think the reason I noticed them so early in Eckankar
                    is because they struck fear in me at the time I read them.

                    So the curses in Eckankar seem to affect some people, but not others.
                    Prometheus, I believe that you have said in the past that they didn't affect
                    you, or that you even doubted their effectiveness. I think the truth is that
                    they affect some people, but not others.


                    ***
                    [P] Yes, Ford would have 36 years (or so)
                    in Eckankar, today, if he had stayed. As
                    for the curses... ECKists think that those
                    don't apply to them because they're not
                    going to be leaving... this was the one true
                    "path" that they had been looking for all
                    along. Thus, the curses didn't bother them.
                    We didn't think about the curses being used
                    as a threat or as a scare tactic or as a lower
                    plane power tripping tool. It didn't apply
                    to us so why worry about it... right? Yet,
                    it was exactly like the same crap (threats)
                    that had hung over our heads from our
                    previous religions which we rejected for
                    similar manipulations.
                    ***



                    #3
                    Prometheus said about the Eckankar Worship Service:

                    "The EWS is normally scheduled on Sundays to
                    compete with the Christian Worship Services
                    and for Klemp to fit-in with his fellow religious
                    leaders in the Minneapolis community by having
                    Sunday Worship Services. This seems or gives
                    the appearance of being less cult like too."

                    JJ - I'm not sure Klemp is trying to compete with the Christian Worship
                    Services, that's awfully optimistic of Eckankar, but I agree fully with the rest
                    of your statement.



                    ***
                    [P] Many people go "church" hunting
                    on Sundays. I've done it prior to finding
                    Eckankar. And, that's how Glenn Beck
                    and his family found LDS.
                    ***



                    EWS - - > Eckankar looks more like Christianity
                    EWS - - > Eckankar looks less cult-like

                    But you jogged my memory of something that I had somehow completely forgotten
                    about. Awhile ago (pre 1999?) I was looking at a Sunday newspaper at the ads for
                    churches and their Sunday church services. In the newspaper, each church of many
                    different Christian denominations had their own little ad. You may not believe
                    what I just remembered. There was an ad for "Eckankar Church." And it was mixed
                    right in with all of the Christian worship services! I was gobsmacked. I said to
                    myself "How the heck did that get in there!?" In other words, I thought surely
                    that the editor of the newspaper had made a mistake.




                    ***
                    [P] Our local area, too, (within the state
                    Satsang area) would place ads in the paper
                    to publicize our Sunday ECK Worship Service
                    and the ad would be listed with the other
                    churches... that was the whole point. My
                    wife and I were the ones who first did this
                    type of specific ad. I probably shared this
                    info (our success with getting it in) with
                    the RESA so that other areas could do so
                    as well. This was probably around 1990-
                    91. It was really funny how I'd have successes
                    with getting Eckankar into areas where
                    others had difficulty. I had moved to a
                    new state and the local EK area I was in
                    wasn't permitted in Libraries (so they said).
                    By the time I was done we were doing
                    Intros and having Roundtables in three
                    local libraries. The Local Director amazed.
                    ***


                    But as I look back on it now, I realize what really happened. Some Eckist had
                    snuck that in there while attempting to pass Eckankar off as "being like
                    Christianity." And this was in a very conservative part of the United States. I
                    bet the editor(s) at the newspaper just about went through the roof when they
                    found out the truth about the "Eckankar Church." That it wasn't a Christian
                    Church.

                    Oh well. It just proves how far members of Eckankar will go to try to hoodwink
                    the public. I'm very glad I remembered this. I remember it very clearly though.
                    When I saw the words "Eckankar Church" I was just about screaming at the
                    newspaper "How can you call Eckankar a church?" It was if I was insulted. After
                    all, how could someone compare a mere church to Eckankar? (my programming as an
                    Eckist).




                    ***
                    [P] True. We'd pass ourselves off as an
                    alternative religion that recognized the
                    validity of all other religions. Of course
                    that wasn't really true but it sounded
                    good at the time and in the moment.
                    The real truth of the matter is that all
                    other religions are seen by Eckankar
                    as KAL (Satan, Devil) based and as 2nd
                    or 4th Plane. It always made me wonder
                    why PT and Klemp skipped the 3rd (Causal)
                    Plane.
                    ***




                    I was so naive back then. This was before I had started to notice the
                    Christianization of Eckankar. The Chistianization was there, but I just wasn't
                    seeing it for what it was.

                    #6
                    Prometheus wrote:

                    "H.I.s, supposedly, are more advanced (via
                    initiation) than the 4th Plane God that ALL
                    non-ECKists on the planet worships!"

                    Right again, Prometheus. And you mentioned something very important that I
                    didn't think of in my previous comments on this topic. And it is VERY applicable
                    to me. That is, I had extremely high expectations of these people. After all,
                    wasn't I being taught that Eckankar is the highest religion of them all? And
                    that all other religions in the World have sprung out of Eckankar? My gosh! Then
                    these people in Eckankar who were the "higher initiates" should be super
                    amazing, super great, and super awesome! So yes, my expectations were very very
                    high.

                    And then when these people didn't just fall below my expectations, but fell WAY
                    below, it was hard on me. And I seriously started to wonder "Are these people
                    really as high as they are supposed to be? As high I as I think they are?" So it
                    did affect me. I think that, consistent with my personality of being
                    disappointed with others, I just withdrew from the whole thing and lived in my
                    own world of Twitchell's books. I'll admit that I did enjoy Klemp's tapes too (I
                    guess I shouldn't admit that here). But most of his books were boring, and were
                    in many cases just "reprints" of the exact same stories in his tapes.




                    ***
                    [P] I too had H.I.s upon pedestals. One
                    was an early mentor. Later, after I left,
                    I shared Ford's "Confessions" with this
                    person and they too left EK. I still had
                    them upon a pedestal, but later that too
                    ended. At one time I had Ford upon a
                    pedestal for awhile. Really, these people
                    are as flawed as the rest of us. Klemp
                    is no different and, as I discovered, HK's
                    one of the most flawed and screwed up
                    people that I've ever met... he just doesn't
                    reveal it as much if you're not looking
                    or are brainwashed. Besides, he's always
                    "on stage" and acting out a role. At the
                    Eden Prairie Mall etc. he's under scrutiny
                    by lurking ECKists but he knows this and
                    is, thus, on his best behaviour with the
                    public and with Joan.
                    ***



                    So, Prometheus, I actually admire you for being actively involved in Eckankar
                    because I couldn't handle it. So your experiences led to a very different
                    experience with Eckankar. I always have been a loner, and after having only a
                    few bad interactions with members of Eckankar, I withdrew into my own world
                    which also means that I pretty much stopped going to Eckankar meetings. This all
                    happened very early in my interaction with Eckankar: probably mid 1980s (I
                    joined in 1979).




                    ***
                    [P] BTW- Don't admire me for this:
                    I'd always try to bring the "loners"
                    into the fold (when they dropped in)
                    by welcoming them at the EWS and
                    chat with them after the service. I
                    would instruct others to do so, as well,
                    instead of chatting with their EK friends.
                    I'd invite them to go to lunch with us,
                    too, and try to talk them and others
                    into doing some volunteer work of
                    their choosing and let them know where
                    we needed help. And, I'd give them
                    a volunteer position "title" and place
                    them under another co-ordinator.
                    Our small center had about 30 EKists
                    with volunteer positions.
                    ***


                    Toward the end of my time in Eckankar, I started attending a lot more EWSs. I
                    think I was in a situation where I wanted to give Eckankar a chance to prove
                    itself to me. I was getting very cynical about the whole thing by now. But the
                    more I went to ESWs, and the more I interacted with Eckists, the more I got a
                    really bad impression of them. I mean, they all had their good qualities too.
                    But what bothered me was the blind dedication that these people had toward
                    Eckankar, and how they would defend Eckankar no matter what. It was very
                    disturbing to me.

                    And so I finally did decide that there just too many negatives.



                    ***
                    [P] I'd always sympathize and/or
                    empathize with ECKists having
                    problems with the dogma, or with
                    H.I.s, and try to get them back "on
                    track." Sometimes I wasn't able to
                    and just said to them, "Let go and
                    let God and do what feels right for
                    you." That suggestion would catch
                    them off-guard. They couldn't believe
                    that I wasn't saying more B.S. to
                    promote Eckankar or to alleviate
                    their concerns. But, If it doesn't
                    feel right then there's a reason
                    for that... sometimes it's called
                    intuition... which is Soul speaking
                    to self. It just takes some of us
                    longer to listen or understand
                    what Soul (we) are saying to self
                    (mind).
                    ***
                  • prometheus_973
                    Hello Jonathan and All, You ve made some good points. It does seem odd that a 500 year old Tibetan Lama (Rebazar) would speak Old English. It s probably
                    Message 9 of 22 , Sep 14, 2010
                      Hello Jonathan and All,
                      You've made some good points.
                      It does seem odd that a 500
                      year old Tibetan Lama (Rebazar)
                      would speak Old English. It's
                      probably because Twitchell
                      used the King James version
                      of the Bible for references.
                      I always thought it was odd
                      that Klemp, too, uses the
                      more inaccurate King James
                      version when giving Bible quotes.

                      Prometheus

                      jonathanjohns wrote:
                      romethues wrote:

                      "But I was wondering, once again
                      as I did when I was an ECKist,
                      Why does Rebazar speak using
                      words like "thee' and "ye?" This
                      "Torch Bearer" and former Mahanta
                      who is over 500 years old and
                      who can travel anywhere physically
                      or otherwise and who PT claimed
                      trained him apparently stepped in
                      as the LEM (for Sudar/Kirpal) and
                      handed Twitchell the Rod of ECK
                      Power... still speaks using thee
                      and ye?"

                      JJ - After I stopped laughing at your funny comment, I started thinking. "Isn't
                      this ye and thee stuff actually Old English? And the reason that it sounds Holy
                      in a traditional Christian sort of way is because some of the old versions of
                      the Bible were written in Old English?

                      And so I turned to that "bastion of truth." That "torchbearer of all things
                      correct." Not Eckankar, but, Wikipedia:

                      Wikipedia - Thou
                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou
                      "Most modern English speakers encounter "thou" only in the works of Shakespeare,
                      in the works of other medieval and early modern writers, and in the King James
                      Bible.

                      So after realizing that in this case it looks like I was correct, I wondered
                      about a few things:

                      1. Rebazar is 500 years old. How old is Old English?
                      2. Regardless of the answer to #1, how and why did Rebazar learn to speak Old
                      English?

                      Wikipedia - Old English
                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_english
                      "Old English (Englisc, Anglisc, Ænglisc) or Anglo-Saxon[1] is an early form of
                      the English language that was spoken and written by the Anglo-Saxons and their
                      descendants in parts of what are now England and south-eastern Scotland between
                      at least the mid-5th century and the mid-12th century."

                      Wikipedia - 5th Century
                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_century
                      "The 5th century is the period from 401 to 500 in accordance with the Julian
                      calendar in Anno Domini/Common Era."

                      Wikipedia - 12th Century
                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_century
                      "As a means of recording the passage of time, the 12th century is the period
                      from 1101 to 1200 in accordance with the Julian calendar in the Christian/Common
                      Era."

                      Rebazar's birth year
                      1965-500=1465

                      If Rebazar was 35 years old in 1500, that means he was speaking Old English
                      about 350 years after it had died out in England and Scotland.

                      Ok, I admit it it. I have no idea what any of this proves...

                      - - - - - - - - - - -

                      UPDATE: Maybe I do know what it proves. Maybe Twitchell knew that most
                      Americans, being of a Christian background, would associate Old English with the
                      Bible. In other words, with Holy writings or spiritual truth.

                      I knew that Twitchell stole some verses from the Bible, but I never thought
                      about this before. The fact that Twitchell may have had Rebazar use the words
                      thee and ye in order to create a spiritual-like persona for Rebazar.

                      I'm wondering whether Ford Johnson mentioned this. He must have.

                      Search results of "Confessions"

                      "old english" - no occurrences
                      "king james" - one occurrence (p 117) but not related to a discussion of
                      Twitchell's use of thee and ye.
                      "thee" - numerous, but Ford actually uses the word 'thee' in some of his HCS
                      affirmations.

                      But Ford is allowed to use thee since he was raised in the United States. Plus,
                      I think that if Ford was questioned, he would acknowledge that he probably got
                      the word "thee" from reading the King James version of the Bible. I don't think
                      Twitchell would acknowledge that Rebazar got the word "thee" from reading the
                      King James version of the Bible, or from somehow being exposed to Old English
                      which was spoken from 450 to 1150.

                      Questions for further study.
                      1. Did all the Eck masters use thee and ye? Or just Rebazar?
                      2. Did these Eck masters speak that way just because they knew Twitchell would
                      feel comfortable with it?
                      3. Did any of Paul's actual gurus such as Kirpal Singh or Premananda use thee
                      and ye in their speech?
                    • prometheus_973
                      Hello Drew and All, Thanks for the perspective. Of course Rebazar is fictitious, but Twitch needed someone living (a LEM fill-in, supposedly) to initiate him
                      Message 10 of 22 , Sep 14, 2010
                        Hello Drew and All,
                        Thanks for the perspective.
                        Of course Rebazar is fictitious,
                        but Twitch needed someone
                        "living" (a LEM fill-in, supposedly)
                        to initiate him as LEM since
                        he killed off Sudar/Kirpal.

                        This EK Master lineage thing
                        is somewhat of a Catch-22
                        isn't it? On one hand these
                        characters have been living,
                        supposedly, 500-60,000 years
                        in the same physical body.
                        However, where are they?
                        They live in PHYSICAL BODIES,
                        or so Eckankar claims, and
                        are nowhere to be found.
                        The Physical is not an invisible
                        Plane, but these "Masters"
                        are invisible... and yet work
                        under Klemp (the mahanta).
                        So, why doesn't Klemp have
                        them give talks at EK Seminars
                        ... ever!

                        On the other hand one has
                        to be "special" in order to
                        see and talk with these undead
                        ECK Masters. But, then again,
                        these ECKists claiming to have
                        had visitations with RT, et al,
                        in their dreams, etc., still need
                        approval from Klemp in order
                        to share these "stories."

                        Otherwise, without approval,
                        from Klemp these claims are
                        unsubstantiated and invalid
                        since these "EK Masters" might
                        just be the KAL playing tricks
                        on chelas and H.I.s. One is
                        supposed to "HU" in order to
                        verify that this is a True ECK
                        Master... like Graham claimed.
                        But we all know how that turned
                        out.

                        Then again, this validating
                        procedure is also used to
                        prevent more and more
                        delusional claims and
                        threats to Klemp. Plus,
                        thereare a lot of psychologically
                        impaired, dysfunctional,
                        and psychotic ECKists out
                        there in la la land. Thus,
                        Klemp has to employ stop-
                        gap measures, dogma,
                        and rules to maintain order
                        and to keep them happy
                        and standing in line for
                        their turn... or so they
                        imagine.

                        Prometheus

                        Drew van Rijk wrote:
                        >
                        > Since Rebazar does not exist now, nor did in the past, verily I say unto you he was not reading the bible or creating old english...  LOL
                        >
                        jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > From: jonathanjohns96 <jonathanjohns96@...>
                        > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Thee and ye. What is that?
                        > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                        > Received: Tuesday, September 14, 2010, 1:39 AM
                        >
                        >All,
                        >
                        > I know that some member of Eckankar is going to say "Maybe Rebazar was reading the KIng James version of the Bible."
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > My answer to that is that Eckankar teaches that all religions came from Ecknakar. That means that Christianity came from Eckankar. So why would Rebazar have been reading the Bible?"
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Oh, OK. Now I get it! How could I have been so stupid! Rebazar Tarz was the person who originated Old English!
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Jonathan
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        jonathanjohns96@> wrote:
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > Promethues wrote:
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > "But I was wondering, once again
                        >
                        > > as I did when I was an ECKist,
                        >
                        > > Why does Rebazar speak using
                        >
                        > > words like "thee' and "ye?" This
                        >
                        > > "Torch Bearer" and former Mahanta
                        >
                        > > who is over 500 years old and
                        >
                        > > who can travel anywhere physically
                        >
                        > > or otherwise and who PT claimed
                        >
                        > > trained him apparently stepped in
                        >
                        > > as the LEM (for Sudar/Kirpal) and
                        >
                        > > handed Twitchell the Rod of ECK
                        >
                        > > Power... still speaks using thee
                        >
                        > > and ye?"
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > JJ - After I stopped laughing at your funny comment, I started thinking. "Isn't this ye and thee stuff actually Old English? And the reason that it sounds Holy in a traditional Christian sort of way is because some of the old versions of the Bible were written in Old English?
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > And so I turned to that "bastion of truth." That "torchbearer of all things correct." Not Eckankar, but, Wikipedia:
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > Wikipedia - Thou
                        >
                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou
                        >
                        > > "Most modern English speakers encounter "thou" only in the works of Shakespeare, in the works of other medieval and early modern writers, and in the King James Bible.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > So after realizing that in this case it looks like I was correct, I wondered about a few things:
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > 1. Rebazar is 500 years old. How old is Old English?
                        >
                        > > 2. Regardless of the answer to #1, how and why did Rebazar learn to speak Old English?
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > Wikipedia - Old English
                        >
                        > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_english
                        >
                        > > "Old English (Englisc, Anglisc, Ænglisc) or Anglo-Saxon[1] is an early form of the English language that was spoken and written by the Anglo-Saxons and their descendants in parts of what are now England and south-eastern Scotland between at least the mid-5th century and the mid-12th century."
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > Wikipedia - 5th Century
                        >
                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_century
                        >
                        > > "The 5th century is the period from 401 to 500 in accordance with the Julian calendar in Anno Domini/Common Era."
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > Wikipedia - 12th Century
                        >
                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_century
                        >
                        > > "As a means of recording the passage of time, the 12th century is the period from 1101 to 1200 in accordance with the Julian calendar in the Christian/Common Era."
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > Rebazar's birth year
                        >
                        > > 1965-500=1465
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > If Rebazar was 35 years old in 1500, that means he was speaking Old English about 350 years after it had died out in England and Scotland.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > Ok, I admit it it. I have no idea what any of this proves...
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > - - - - - - - - - - -
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > UPDATE: Maybe I do know what it proves. Maybe Twitchell knew that most Americans, being of a Christian background, would associate Old English with the Bible. In other words, with Holy writings or spiritual truth.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > I knew that Twitchell stole some verses from the Bible, but I never thought about this before. The fact that Twitchell may have had Rebazar use the words thee and ye in order to create a spiritual-like persona for Rebazar.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > I'm wondering whether Ford Johnson mentioned this. He must have.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > Search results of "Confessions"
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > "old english" - no occurrences
                        >
                        > > "king james" - one occurrence (p 117) but not related to a discussion of Twitchell's use of thee and ye.
                        >
                        > > "thee" - numerous, but Ford actually uses the word 'thee' in some of his HCS affirmations.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > But Ford is allowed to use thee since he was raised in the United States. Plus, I think that if Ford was questioned, he would acknowledge that he probably got the word "thee" from reading the King James version of the Bible. I don't think Twitchell would acknowledge that Rebazar got the word "thee" from reading the King James version of the Bible, or from somehow being exposed to Old English which was spoken from 450 to 1150.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > Questions for further study.
                        >
                        > > 1. Did all the Eck masters use thee and ye? Or just Rebazar?
                        >
                        > > 2. Did these Eck masters speak that way just because they knew Twitchell would feel comfortable with it?
                        >
                        > > 3. Did any of Paul's actual gurus such as Kirpal Singh or Premananda use thee and ye in their speech?
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                      • jonathanjohns96
                        Prometheus, Thank you for the comments. I found them to be very helpful and very healing. Jonathan
                        Message 11 of 22 , Sep 15, 2010
                          Prometheus,

                          Thank you for the comments. I found them to be very helpful and very healing.

                          Jonathan
                        • prometheus_973
                          Hello Jonathan, Thanks. I don t know what I said, but thanks anyway. Sometimes I think I should write and thank Klemp for being such a boring wannabe who lacks
                          Message 12 of 22 , Sep 16, 2010
                            Hello Jonathan,
                            Thanks. I don't know what I said,
                            but thanks anyway. Sometimes
                            I think I should write and thank
                            Klemp for being such a boring
                            wannabe who lacks charisma.

                            BTW-Imagine how many more
                            ECKists there would be, now, if
                            Klemp had even close to the same
                            amount of charisma as Twitchell
                            or Gross had.

                            Plus, it seems that Klemp has
                            been in semi-retirement for
                            a number of years now. This
                            semi-seclusion/retirement
                            became more apparent when
                            he stopped traveling to major
                            ECK Seminars. I'm thinking that
                            he made more "cheesy" health
                            excuses to in order to justify
                            his changes in behaviour and
                            not wanting to travel.

                            Remember the time HK talked
                            about eating too much cheese
                            and this had a negative health
                            effect upon him? He probably
                            got constipated! It was stupid
                            on his part, but isn't that called
                            gluttony too and is one of the
                            Five Passions of the Mind. One
                            would think that a Mahanta
                            (although not perfect) would
                            be higher in consciousness.

                            However, Klemp turns even his
                            own lack of consciousness and
                            common sense around and uses
                            his ill health as an excuse. His
                            illnesses have now become the
                            result of taking on more Karma
                            for his chelas and acting as a karmic
                            "holding tank" so that his Chelas
                            and H.I.s can advance in consciousness
                            and, thereby, in their initiations.

                            How's that worked out for ECKists?
                            In Eckankar today there are even
                            more restrictions/requirements
                            for H.I.s to qualify for the next
                            higher initiation and title (i.e. cleric,
                            initiator, ESA, RESA). And, thanks
                            to Klemp, there are no longer
                            Major ECK Seminars in California
                            and Florida in the colder months
                            of Oct. and March-April.

                            BTW- Don't "Holding Tanks" get
                            emptied so that more can be taken
                            in? It's an on-going process/cycle
                            kind of like using that old "Snow
                            Ball Technique" over and over again.

                            Well, this is all a moot point isn't
                            it. Klemp has no powers... he's a
                            fraud. I can see why he seems meek,
                            at times, since he is aware that it's
                            all a game he's playing and that
                            any day now he'll be discovered
                            for being a fraud. That's why he's
                            not letting ECKists know where
                            all the money is going since he's
                            hide enough away to take care
                            of himself just in case. But, what
                            will that take for more ECKists to
                            see through the facade? I don't know...
                            maybe HK dropping over dead or
                            having a stroke or maybe cancer?

                            Don't get me wrong... I'd never
                            wish that on anyone, but it happens
                            everyday to all kinds of people and
                            even to H.I.s. (of course). Yes, H.I.s
                            are not special, and they get cancer
                            too! Thus, Klemp is not exempt
                            from this happening to him. Look
                            at Twitchell... he didn't predict
                            his heart attack and death! But,
                            according to his own EK scripture
                            (as the LEM/Mahanta) he should
                            have known well in advance as
                            to when he would be translating.

                            However, in "Difficulties Of Being
                            The Living ECK Master" Paul was
                            meeting with his inner circle of
                            H.I.s (in a business meeting) on
                            the day of his death. The notes
                            and comments of that meeting
                            are given here. And, PT was making
                            plans for his future with Eckankar
                            in this meeting. Paul gave no indication
                            (just the opposite) of his impending
                            death on that very same night.

                            This is just one more reason as
                            to why this historical ECK book
                            was not republished by Eckankar
                            (Klemp). It's not like "Difficulties"
                            can't be republished/reprinted
                            since Eckankar has its own printing
                            equipment, does the publishing,
                            and owns PT's copyrights. Thus,
                            this is just one more cover-up
                            showing that Eckankar is simply
                            another false teaching/religion
                            that can't keep it's promises in/for
                            this Here and Now.

                            Prometheus





                            Jonathan wrote:

                            Prometheus,

                            Thank you for the comments. I found them to be very helpful and very healing.

                            Jonathan
                          • postekcon
                            EKULT, AN APPRAISAL I remember the ekult I joined 1970 s. It seemed alive, vibrant, a movement which seemed to know what it was about and where it was going!
                            Message 13 of 22 , Sep 17, 2010
                              EKULT, AN APPRAISAL

                              I remember the ekult I joined 1970's. It seemed alive, vibrant, a movement which seemed to know what it was about and where it was going! Under the charismatic and artistic leadership of Darwin Gross membership numbers grew and grew. Because the movement was 'CURRENT' for the consciousness of those times, new members came with minimal recruitment effort!

                              We were excited. Ekult promised us it had the 'tools' to experience greater individualism, freedom and spiritual 'unfoldment', and we believed the hype! We had grown up in the 'Flower Power' era and listening to The Beatles music! We were interested in TM (transcendental meditation), we were interested in all things 'eastern' and wanted to know more. Paul Twitchell too, was in-tune with this consciousness, he was 'CURRENT' for the times. The mail order education system he founded, matched those needs. Ignoring all plagiaristic issues here, the books and discourses he compiled from the works of other authors satisfied us for several years.

                              However consciousness, being fluid, changes, moves on and around and ekult got left behind! Ekult shot itself in the foot, the day it gave leadership to Harold Klemp. Unlike Paul Twitchell he has never been able to tune-in to the consciousness (keep 'current'), produce or even 'compile' works which are dynamic and relevant for the times.

                              BTW- In the business world, when a product matches the market forces (consciousness) of the day, it is successful; it is never the other way round!

                              You might like to observe the consciousness of youth and those who are under 30 years of age. They tend to live life to the extreme to the edge of experience e.g. extreme sports etc. They show NO fear of the creation of either sin or karma, or of the consequences of either, whether now or in a hereafter. This is why a karma-based, savior-style religion like the one HK develops makes no sense to their consciousness. Even their devoted ekult parents have been unable to indoctrinate them in ekult ways once they've left the childhood years. (HK himself included as such a parent, I believe!).

                              Ekult is an organization born out of human arrogance! Consider this! What level of human arrogance is shown, where an earthly organization claims it has commandeered the very spirit of god (energy of the universe); claims it can trademark it in earthly law and then proceed to market it for profit!! This reminds me of a certain medieval church? It too claimed it had commandeered the way of 'salvation' for the gullible populace. That medieval church, with its resa-structure-style network of upwards reporting, soon descended the slippery slope to the 'Inquisition'. History has a habit of repeating itself…

                              Perhaps if ekult had stayed with its original brief and admitted openly to the world, it had been founded as a 'reference' point for the best available philosophies and theories for living life, like a Wikipedia, then it might have remained 'CURRENT'. If only it had cleaned up its act, it could have evolved as an altruistic service and been of benefit to mankind today. Instead, seeing the opportunity for financial gain, HK and owner/s colluded to formulate yet another dead religion to add the world's list. The modus operandi reminds me again of that medieval church which once sold indulgences i.e. money to church in exchange for remission of sins in the hereafter! Similarly ekult devotees can gain prominence (get noticed) by spending lots of own time and money in ekult 'service', and are often rewarded with faster progress through the 'initiation' process. To put this very simply, in ekult, receipt of the next initiation signifies the remission of some sin (karma)!

                              'Service' to ekult is always emphasized and hyped as being direct service to the spirit of god! But Catch22 here as ekult also says the true godhead is a Being so detached, it has no interest whether mortals service it or not! What a clever ruse to induce 'service' for ekult coffers and hide its mlm business model. For those of you who may be unfamiliar with how ekult sources funding. In addition to church-plate style donations etc., ekult followers (like mlm affiliates) are expected to service promotional events and fund from their personal wallet promotional materials and products. More importantly, there is also a legal understanding that donations, collected at local level, belong to ekult HQ, and amounts are uploaded accordingly!

                              In conclusion, what of any future for ekult – there is none – it's already too late? To my observations what remains are isolated pockets of ekult devotees mostly seniors, mostly single females! Grayed-out, like inactive pc commands, I note the dynamism and energy, I once admired, is long long dead, while larger and ever larger pics of their cultic leader casts its shadow over them…
                              -Postekcon



                              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hello Jonathan,
                              > Thanks. I don't know what I said,
                              > but thanks anyway. Sometimes
                              > I think I should write and thank
                              > Klemp for being such a boring
                              > wannabe who lacks charisma.
                              >
                              > BTW-Imagine how many more
                              > ECKists there would be, now, if
                              > Klemp had even close to the same
                              > amount of charisma as Twitchell
                              > or Gross had.
                              >
                              > Plus, it seems that Klemp has
                              > been in semi-retirement for
                              > a number of years now. This
                              > semi-seclusion/retirement
                              > became more apparent when
                              > he stopped traveling to major
                              > ECK Seminars. I'm thinking that
                              > he made more "cheesy" health
                              > excuses to in order to justify
                              > his changes in behaviour and
                              > not wanting to travel.
                              >
                              > Remember the time HK talked
                              > about eating too much cheese
                              > and this had a negative health
                              > effect upon him? He probably
                              > got constipated! It was stupid
                              > on his part, but isn't that called
                              > gluttony too and is one of the
                              > Five Passions of the Mind. One
                              > would think that a Mahanta
                              > (although not perfect) would
                              > be higher in consciousness.
                              >
                              > However, Klemp turns even his
                              > own lack of consciousness and
                              > common sense around and uses
                              > his ill health as an excuse. His
                              > illnesses have now become the
                              > result of taking on more Karma
                              > for his chelas and acting as a karmic
                              > "holding tank" so that his Chelas
                              > and H.I.s can advance in consciousness
                              > and, thereby, in their initiations.
                              >
                              > How's that worked out for ECKists?
                              > In Eckankar today there are even
                              > more restrictions/requirements
                              > for H.I.s to qualify for the next
                              > higher initiation and title (i.e. cleric,
                              > initiator, ESA, RESA). And, thanks
                              > to Klemp, there are no longer
                              > Major ECK Seminars in California
                              > and Florida in the colder months
                              > of Oct. and March-April.
                              >
                              > BTW- Don't "Holding Tanks" get
                              > emptied so that more can be taken
                              > in? It's an on-going process/cycle
                              > kind of like using that old "Snow
                              > Ball Technique" over and over again.
                              >
                              > Well, this is all a moot point isn't
                              > it. Klemp has no powers... he's a
                              > fraud. I can see why he seems meek,
                              > at times, since he is aware that it's
                              > all a game he's playing and that
                              > any day now he'll be discovered
                              > for being a fraud. That's why he's
                              > not letting ECKists know where
                              > all the money is going since he's
                              > hide enough away to take care
                              > of himself just in case. But, what
                              > will that take for more ECKists to
                              > see through the facade? I don't know...
                              > maybe HK dropping over dead or
                              > having a stroke or maybe cancer?
                              >
                              > Don't get me wrong... I'd never
                              > wish that on anyone, but it happens
                              > everyday to all kinds of people and
                              > even to H.I.s. (of course). Yes, H.I.s
                              > are not special, and they get cancer
                              > too! Thus, Klemp is not exempt
                              > from this happening to him. Look
                              > at Twitchell... he didn't predict
                              > his heart attack and death! But,
                              > according to his own EK scripture
                              > (as the LEM/Mahanta) he should
                              > have known well in advance as
                              > to when he would be translating.
                              >
                              > However, in "Difficulties Of Being
                              > The Living ECK Master" Paul was
                              > meeting with his inner circle of
                              > H.I.s (in a business meeting) on
                              > the day of his death. The notes
                              > and comments of that meeting
                              > are given here. And, PT was making
                              > plans for his future with Eckankar
                              > in this meeting. Paul gave no indication
                              > (just the opposite) of his impending
                              > death on that very same night.
                              >
                              > This is just one more reason as
                              > to why this historical ECK book
                              > was not republished by Eckankar
                              > (Klemp). It's not like "Difficulties"
                              > can't be republished/reprinted
                              > since Eckankar has its own printing
                              > equipment, does the publishing,
                              > and owns PT's copyrights. Thus,
                              > this is just one more cover-up
                              > showing that Eckankar is simply
                              > another false teaching/religion
                              > that can't keep it's promises in/for
                              > this Here and Now.
                              >
                              > Prometheus
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Jonathan wrote:
                              >
                              > Prometheus,
                              >
                              > Thank you for the comments. I found them to be very helpful and very healing.
                              >
                              > Jonathan
                              >
                            • jonathanjohns96
                              JJ - Please note. I only pulled forward postekcon s message. I m going to comment on each paragraph. ... JJ - I joined in 1979, and I can confirm that your
                              Message 14 of 22 , Sep 17, 2010
                                JJ - Please note. I only pulled forward postekcon's message. I'm going to comment on each paragraph.


                                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "postekcon" <postekcon@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > EKULT, AN APPRAISAL
                                >
                                > postekcon > I remember the ekult I joined 1970's. It seemed alive, vibrant, a movement which seemed to know what it was about and where it was going! Under the charismatic and artistic leadership of Darwin Gross membership numbers grew and grew. Because the movement was 'CURRENT' for the consciousness of those times, new members came with minimal recruitment effort!
                                >

                                JJ - I joined in 1979, and I can confirm that your description fits Eckankar very well for the 1979 time frame. You really made a very nice description here. I always thought there was a big difference between Eckankar when I joined in 1979 and Eckankar after Klemp had been in charge for awhile. Your description of Eckankar in the 1970s is beautiful.

                                > postekcon > We were excited. Ekult promised us it had the 'tools' to experience greater individualism, freedom and spiritual 'unfoldment', and we believed the hype! We had grown up in the 'Flower Power' era and listening to The Beatles music! We were interested in TM (transcendental meditation), we were interested in all things 'eastern' and wanted to know more. Paul Twitchell too, was in-tune with this consciousness, he was 'CURRENT' for the times. The mail order education system he founded, matched those needs. Ignoring all plagiaristic issues here, the books and discourses he compiled from the works of other authors satisfied us for several years.

                                JJ - Another beautiful description of Eckankar in the 1970s under Gross. I agree completely with your description and comments. Back when I joined in 1979, being interested in "eastern traditions" was OK, even well thought of in Eckankar and in many other parts of society as well. Then under Klemp, he got the "bright" [<-- sarcasm] idea that this was keeping members away. So he steered Eckankar in the direction of imitating Christianity as a way of increasing the membership. Experience has shown that this was a miserable failure in terms of bringing members into Eckankar. After all, other than saying that the HU is a prayer, the underlying teachings are still like the Eastern religions which Eckankar copied (Sant Mant, etc.).

                                >
                                > postekcon > However consciousness, being fluid, changes, moves on and around and ekult got left behind! Ekult shot itself in the foot, the day it gave leadership to Harold Klemp. Unlike Paul Twitchell he has never been able to tune-in to the consciousness (keep 'current'), produce or even 'compile' works which are dynamic and relevant for the times.
                                >

                                JJ - I agree 100% with your statement that "Ekult shot itself in the foot, the day it gave leadership to Harold Klemp." In fact, I had the same thought a few days ago. Even the same metaphor! Your view that it had to do with Klemp's inability to tune into the consciousness of the times is what I disagree with. I don't think Klemp was trying to that in any genuine way. He was only trying to tune into the consciousness of the times by asking the question "How can we get new members into Eckankar?" The answer he came up with was "Make Eckankar look like Christianity on the surface." I think Eckankar should have been honest and true to its roots and promoted itself for what it is: a copy of Sant Mant, etc., which has been modified for Westerners. Instead, Klemp turned Eckankar into something with a thin veneer of Christianity, but with the same basic Eastern teachings underneath (if you look hard enough), but now emphasizing the use of dreams for spiritual unfoldment.

                                > postekcon > BTW- In the business world, when a product matches the market forces (consciousness) of the day, it is successful; it is never the other way round!
                                >
                                > postekcon > You might like to observe the consciousness of youth and those who are under 30 years of age. They tend to live life to the extreme to the edge of experience e.g. extreme sports etc. They show NO fear of the creation of either sin or karma, or of the consequences of either, whether now or in a hereafter. This is why a karma-based, savior-style religion like the one HK develops makes no sense to their consciousness. Even their devoted ekult parents have been unable to indoctrinate them in ekult ways once they've left the childhood years. (HK himself included as such a parent, I believe!).
                                >

                                JJ - ECKANKAR IMITATED CHRISTIANITY. What you say about the under 30 crowd is very true. But that same group of people joined Eckankar like crazy under Gross in the 1970s. Eckankar, as it was originally set up by Twitchell, and maintained by Gross, is never going to be for everyone. It is always going to be for a small minority of people. I think Eckankar's failings in recruitment since 1990 is due to the fact that instead of being true to themselves, they started imitating everyone else. If you have a unique product, why would you ruin your business by starting to imitate everyone else? Eckankar hired a Madison Avenue firm to analyze Eckankar. Klemp spoke about it in one of his talks. Klemp joked that they recommended that Eckankar send Rebazar on a tour around the United States. I think what really happened, is that this report told Eckankar that the Eastern words and concepts were keeping new members away because Eckankar's pool of possible new members is basically people who come from a Christian background, regardless of whether they practice it seriously or not.

                                JJ - ECKANKAR IS A PASSIVE APPROACH TO SPIRITUAL UNFOLDMENT. But the most important issue here may be because Eckankar is a very passive approach (this policy is actually consistent with its Eastern predecessors). And most young people today are not into being passive. Quite the opposite! Under Klemp, Eckankar started emphasizing the use of dreams for spiritual unfoldment. Everything else in Eckankar took a back seat to this approach. And Eckankar today still emphasizes surrendering to the master but much more than Twitchell and Gross did. Again, something that is VERY passive. By the time I left Eckankar in 2008 I was sick of reading Klemp's constant requests in the Mystic World that people love him, etc or they would spiritually hold themselves back. This is NOT what young people today are interested in. They are interested in taking charge and actively pursuing spiritual unfoldment. NOT following the passive approaches put forth by Eckankar. If Eckankar is having any success at all it is because it somehow manages to brainwash some people into thinking that Eckankar's approach is active. But as we all know, it is actually sending people in a direction that keeps them slaves to Eckankar by keeping them in a passive mode of functioning: (1) using dreams for spiritual unfoldment, and (2) relying on a master whom you surrender yourself to.

                                JJ - A quasi-Christian-underlying-Eastern religion emphasizing passive techniques such as dreams for spiritual unfoldment, and requiring people to "surrender to a master" may not be matching the consciousness of today. It just seems that fewer and fewr Westerners are falling for this crap.

                                > postekcon > Ekult is an organization born out of human arrogance! Consider this! What level of human arrogance is shown, where an earthly organization claims it has commandeered the very spirit of god (energy of the universe); claims it can trademark it in earthly law and then proceed to market it for profit!! This reminds me of a certain medieval church? It too claimed it had commandeered the way of 'salvation' for the gullible populace. That medieval church, with its resa-structure-style network of upwards reporting, soon descended the slippery slope to the 'Inquisition'. History has a habit of repeating itself…
                                >

                                JJ - I can't comment about the middle ages because I have no knowledge about it. But you are right about the arrogance of Eckankar trademarking God. As I have written about it before on ET (Eckankar Truth message board) and/or ESA, it is blasphemy against God to think that you can trademark God. Eckankar also trademarked their particular sound of God: HU.

                                > postekcon > Perhaps if ekult had stayed with its original brief and admitted openly to the world, it had been founded as a 'reference' point for the best available philosophies and theories for living life, like a Wikipedia, then it might have remained 'CURRENT'. If only it had cleaned up its act, it could have evolved as an altruistic service and been of benefit to mankind today. Instead, seeing the opportunity for financial gain, HK and owner/s colluded to formulate yet another dead religion to add the world's list. The modus operandi reminds me again of that medieval church which once sold indulgences i.e. money to church in exchange for remission of sins in the hereafter! Similarly ekult devotees can gain prominence (get noticed) by spending lots of own time and money in ekult 'service', and are often rewarded with faster progress through the 'initiation' process. To put this very simply, in ekult, receipt of the next initiation signifies the remission of some sin (karma)!
                                >

                                JJ - One person, Prometheus (on this message board) has written extensively about the "services get rewards" process in Eckankar. I'm sure that both of you are correct. Believe it or not, I was never aware of that in my 29 years in Eckankar (1979-2008). I was out of touch with the actual "goings on" at the local Eck center. I was living in my own world. As a result, much happier, but completely out of touch with what was really going on in Eckankar. In my latter years I had been reading some things about it on the Internet such as Darwin's legal deposition. Honestly, if it wasn't for the Internet, I don't think I would ever found out the truth about Eckankar.

                                JJ - I think there is some truth to your theory as stated in the beginning of your paragraph. When Klemp took over, he no doubt was made privy to the large amount of plagiarism/lies/exaggerations by Paul Twitchell. He had two choices, either "come clean" or cover it up in order to continue Eckankar's money-making scam. He chose to continue Eckankar's money-making scam. I believe that is what you are saying.

                                JJ - Question. In your first sentence, did you mean "beliefs" instead of "breif?" That makes more sense to me.

                                > postekcon > 'Service' to ekult is always emphasized and hyped as being direct service to the spirit of god! But Catch22 here as ekult also says the true godhead is a Being so detached, it has no interest whether mortals service it or not! What a clever ruse to induce 'service' for ekult coffers and hide its mlm business model. For those of you who may be unfamiliar with how ekult sources funding. In addition to church-plate style donations etc., ekult followers (like mlm affiliates) are expected to service promotional events and fund from their personal wallet promotional materials and products. More importantly, there is also a legal understanding that donations, collected at local level, belong to ekult HQ, and amounts are uploaded accordingly!
                                >

                                JJ - Eckankar has a lot of hypocrisy. They speak for God, but in the end it is always about financial gain for Eckankar. But your main point is specifically that in Eckankar "Service for God" is really "Money for Eckankar."

                                JJ - Question. What is "mlm?"

                                >
                                > postekcon > In conclusion, what of any future for ekult – there is none – it's already too late? To my observations what remains are isolated pockets of ekult devotees mostly seniors, mostly single females! Grayed-out, like inactive pc commands, I note the dynamism and energy, I once admired, is long long dead, while larger and ever larger pics of their cultic leader casts its shadow over them…
                                > -Postekcon
                                >

                                JJ - Very eloquent writing on your part. I agree that it is mostly the oldsters that are keeping Eckankar going. I mentioned this in one of my first posts on ET/ESA when I first left Eckankar in December of 2008. I think there are fewer and fewer potential new members who are interested in Klemp's dream-based version of Eckankar. In other words, the emphasizing of dreams for spiritual unfoldment. In my own experiences, all of my work was in full consciousness actually talking to Eck masters on the inner. For that, I was made to feel like a heretic and pariah when I started telling the Eckists over at a.r.e about it. While in Eckankar, I didn't even dare mention it to all but two or three people. So anyone who has capabilities beyond the "dreaming" techniques currently in Eckankar, you would be better off choosing a more advanced path. I don't know what it is, but you might consider a real Native American shaman if you can find one, and if you can handle the rigors of that. An it's not "easy" like Eckankar is. Looking at the big picture, I think it might be OK to get some basic spiritual awareness under Eckankar or some other religion, but after that, move on, because Eckankar has little to offer.

                                JJ - So, postekcon, thanks for your post. It was very well written, and very eloquently written. You made a lot of points, and I agree with virtually all of them.

                                Jonathan
                              • prometheus_973
                                Hello All, I saw the following and it reminded me of something: JJ - I agree 100% with your statement that Ekult shot itself in the foot, the day it gave
                                Message 15 of 22 , Sep 18, 2010
                                  Hello All,
                                  I saw the following and it reminded me
                                  of something:

                                  "JJ - I agree 100% with your statement that "Ekult shot itself in the foot, the
                                  day it gave leadership to Harold Klemp." In fact, I had the same thought a few
                                  days ago. Even the same metaphor! Your view that it had to do with Klemp's
                                  inability to tune into the consciousness of the times is what I disagree with. I
                                  don't think Klemp was trying to that in any genuine way. He was only trying to
                                  tune into the consciousness of the times by asking the question "How can we get
                                  new members into Eckankar?" The answer he came up with was "Make Eckankar look
                                  like Christianity on the surface." I think Eckankar should have been honest and
                                  true to its roots and promoted itself for what it is: a copy of Sant Mant, etc.,
                                  which has been modified for Westerners. Instead, Klemp turned Eckankar into
                                  something with a thin veneer of Christianity, but with the same basic Eastern
                                  teachings underneath (if you look hard enough), but now emphasizing the use of
                                  dreams for spiritual unfoldment."

                                  [P] Klemp changing the direction of Eckankar
                                  towards Christianity with Sunday Worship Services,
                                  etc. reminded me of the movie of "Silence of
                                  the Lambs." The FBI agent tracked "Buffalo Bill"
                                  down by looking at where and what he coveted.

                                  The same came be applied to Klemp. He was
                                  attending a Luteran Seminary to become a
                                  preacher/minister. Thus, he took Eckankar
                                  in a direction away from the Eastern Teachings
                                  and closer to what he knew and had been
                                  trained in. And, since most Eckists come from
                                  a Christian background and the fact that this
                                  is still, for the most part, a Christian country
                                  (as is Europe) this makes for a familiar fit.

                                  Got to go now.

                                  Prometheus


                                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96" <jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > JJ - Please note. I only pulled forward postekcon's message. I'm going to comment on each paragraph.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "postekcon" <postekcon@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > EKULT, AN APPRAISAL
                                  > >
                                  > > postekcon > I remember the ekult I joined 1970's. It seemed alive, vibrant, a movement which seemed to know what it was about and where it was going! Under the charismatic and artistic leadership of Darwin Gross membership numbers grew and grew. Because the movement was 'CURRENT' for the consciousness of those times, new members came with minimal recruitment effort!
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > JJ - I joined in 1979, and I can confirm that your description fits Eckankar very well for the 1979 time frame. You really made a very nice description here. I always thought there was a big difference between Eckankar when I joined in 1979 and Eckankar after Klemp had been in charge for awhile. Your description of Eckankar in the 1970s is beautiful.
                                  >
                                  > > postekcon > We were excited. Ekult promised us it had the 'tools' to experience greater individualism, freedom and spiritual 'unfoldment', and we believed the hype! We had grown up in the 'Flower Power' era and listening to The Beatles music! We were interested in TM (transcendental meditation), we were interested in all things 'eastern' and wanted to know more. Paul Twitchell too, was in-tune with this consciousness, he was 'CURRENT' for the times. The mail order education system he founded, matched those needs. Ignoring all plagiaristic issues here, the books and discourses he compiled from the works of other authors satisfied us for several years.
                                  >
                                  > JJ - Another beautiful description of Eckankar in the 1970s under Gross. I agree completely with your description and comments. Back when I joined in 1979, being interested in "eastern traditions" was OK, even well thought of in Eckankar and in many other parts of society as well. Then under Klemp, he got the "bright" [<-- sarcasm] idea that this was keeping members away. So he steered Eckankar in the direction of imitating Christianity as a way of increasing the membership. Experience has shown that this was a miserable failure in terms of bringing members into Eckankar. After all, other than saying that the HU is a prayer, the underlying teachings are still like the Eastern religions which Eckankar copied (Sant Mant, etc.).
                                  >
                                  > >
                                  > > postekcon > However consciousness, being fluid, changes, moves on and around and ekult got left behind! Ekult shot itself in the foot, the day it gave leadership to Harold Klemp. Unlike Paul Twitchell he has never been able to tune-in to the consciousness (keep 'current'), produce or even 'compile' works which are dynamic and relevant for the times.
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > JJ - I agree 100% with your statement that "Ekult shot itself in the foot, the day it gave leadership to Harold Klemp." In fact, I had the same thought a few days ago. Even the same metaphor! Your view that it had to do with Klemp's inability to tune into the consciousness of the times is what I disagree with. I don't think Klemp was trying to that in any genuine way. He was only trying to tune into the consciousness of the times by asking the question "How can we get new members into Eckankar?" The answer he came up with was "Make Eckankar look like Christianity on the surface." I think Eckankar should have been honest and true to its roots and promoted itself for what it is: a copy of Sant Mant, etc., which has been modified for Westerners. Instead, Klemp turned Eckankar into something with a thin veneer of Christianity, but with the same basic Eastern teachings underneath (if you look hard enough), but now emphasizing the use of dreams for spiritual unfoldment.
                                  >
                                  > > postekcon > BTW- In the business world, when a product matches the market forces (consciousness) of the day, it is successful; it is never the other way round!
                                  > >
                                  > > postekcon > You might like to observe the consciousness of youth and those who are under 30 years of age. They tend to live life to the extreme to the edge of experience e.g. extreme sports etc. They show NO fear of the creation of either sin or karma, or of the consequences of either, whether now or in a hereafter. This is why a karma-based, savior-style religion like the one HK develops makes no sense to their consciousness. Even their devoted ekult parents have been unable to indoctrinate them in ekult ways once they've left the childhood years. (HK himself included as such a parent, I believe!).
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > JJ - ECKANKAR IMITATED CHRISTIANITY. What you say about the under 30 crowd is very true. But that same group of people joined Eckankar like crazy under Gross in the 1970s. Eckankar, as it was originally set up by Twitchell, and maintained by Gross, is never going to be for everyone. It is always going to be for a small minority of people. I think Eckankar's failings in recruitment since 1990 is due to the fact that instead of being true to themselves, they started imitating everyone else. If you have a unique product, why would you ruin your business by starting to imitate everyone else? Eckankar hired a Madison Avenue firm to analyze Eckankar. Klemp spoke about it in one of his talks. Klemp joked that they recommended that Eckankar send Rebazar on a tour around the United States. I think what really happened, is that this report told Eckankar that the Eastern words and concepts were keeping new members away because Eckankar's pool of possible new members is basically people who come from a Christian background, regardless of whether they practice it seriously or not.
                                  >
                                  > JJ - ECKANKAR IS A PASSIVE APPROACH TO SPIRITUAL UNFOLDMENT. But the most important issue here may be because Eckankar is a very passive approach (this policy is actually consistent with its Eastern predecessors). And most young people today are not into being passive. Quite the opposite! Under Klemp, Eckankar started emphasizing the use of dreams for spiritual unfoldment. Everything else in Eckankar took a back seat to this approach. And Eckankar today still emphasizes surrendering to the master but much more than Twitchell and Gross did. Again, something that is VERY passive. By the time I left Eckankar in 2008 I was sick of reading Klemp's constant requests in the Mystic World that people love him, etc or they would spiritually hold themselves back. This is NOT what young people today are interested in. They are interested in taking charge and actively pursuing spiritual unfoldment. NOT following the passive approaches put forth by Eckankar. If Eckankar is having any success at all it is because it somehow manages to brainwash some people into thinking that Eckankar's approach is active. But as we all know, it is actually sending people in a direction that keeps them slaves to Eckankar by keeping them in a passive mode of functioning: (1) using dreams for spiritual unfoldment, and (2) relying on a master whom you surrender yourself to.
                                  >
                                  > JJ - A quasi-Christian-underlying-Eastern religion emphasizing passive techniques such as dreams for spiritual unfoldment, and requiring people to "surrender to a master" may not be matching the consciousness of today. It just seems that fewer and fewr Westerners are falling for this crap.
                                  >
                                  > > postekcon > Ekult is an organization born out of human arrogance! Consider this! What level of human arrogance is shown, where an earthly organization claims it has commandeered the very spirit of god (energy of the universe); claims it can trademark it in earthly law and then proceed to market it for profit!! This reminds me of a certain medieval church? It too claimed it had commandeered the way of 'salvation' for the gullible populace. That medieval church, with its resa-structure-style network of upwards reporting, soon descended the slippery slope to the 'Inquisition'. History has a habit of repeating itself…
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > JJ - I can't comment about the middle ages because I have no knowledge about it. But you are right about the arrogance of Eckankar trademarking God. As I have written about it before on ET (Eckankar Truth message board) and/or ESA, it is blasphemy against God to think that you can trademark God. Eckankar also trademarked their particular sound of God: HU.
                                  >
                                  > > postekcon > Perhaps if ekult had stayed with its original brief and admitted openly to the world, it had been founded as a 'reference' point for the best available philosophies and theories for living life, like a Wikipedia, then it might have remained 'CURRENT'. If only it had cleaned up its act, it could have evolved as an altruistic service and been of benefit to mankind today. Instead, seeing the opportunity for financial gain, HK and owner/s colluded to formulate yet another dead religion to add the world's list. The modus operandi reminds me again of that medieval church which once sold indulgences i.e. money to church in exchange for remission of sins in the hereafter! Similarly ekult devotees can gain prominence (get noticed) by spending lots of own time and money in ekult 'service', and are often rewarded with faster progress through the 'initiation' process. To put this very simply, in ekult, receipt of the next initiation signifies the remission of some sin (karma)!
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > JJ - One person, Prometheus (on this message board) has written extensively about the "services get rewards" process in Eckankar. I'm sure that both of you are correct. Believe it or not, I was never aware of that in my 29 years in Eckankar (1979-2008). I was out of touch with the actual "goings on" at the local Eck center. I was living in my own world. As a result, much happier, but completely out of touch with what was really going on in Eckankar. In my latter years I had been reading some things about it on the Internet such as Darwin's legal deposition. Honestly, if it wasn't for the Internet, I don't think I would ever found out the truth about Eckankar.
                                  >
                                  > JJ - I think there is some truth to your theory as stated in the beginning of your paragraph. When Klemp took over, he no doubt was made privy to the large amount of plagiarism/lies/exaggerations by Paul Twitchell. He had two choices, either "come clean" or cover it up in order to continue Eckankar's money-making scam. He chose to continue Eckankar's money-making scam. I believe that is what you are saying.
                                  >
                                  > JJ - Question. In your first sentence, did you mean "beliefs" instead of "breif?" That makes more sense to me.
                                  >
                                  > > postekcon > 'Service' to ekult is always emphasized and hyped as being direct service to the spirit of god! But Catch22 here as ekult also says the true godhead is a Being so detached, it has no interest whether mortals service it or not! What a clever ruse to induce 'service' for ekult coffers and hide its mlm business model. For those of you who may be unfamiliar with how ekult sources funding. In addition to church-plate style donations etc., ekult followers (like mlm affiliates) are expected to service promotional events and fund from their personal wallet promotional materials and products. More importantly, there is also a legal understanding that donations, collected at local level, belong to ekult HQ, and amounts are uploaded accordingly!
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > JJ - Eckankar has a lot of hypocrisy. They speak for God, but in the end it is always about financial gain for Eckankar. But your main point is specifically that in Eckankar "Service for God" is really "Money for Eckankar."
                                  >
                                  > JJ - Question. What is "mlm?"
                                  >
                                  > >
                                  > > postekcon > In conclusion, what of any future for ekult – there is none – it's already too late? To my observations what remains are isolated pockets of ekult devotees mostly seniors, mostly single females! Grayed-out, like inactive pc commands, I note the dynamism and energy, I once admired, is long long dead, while larger and ever larger pics of their cultic leader casts its shadow over them…
                                  > > -Postekcon
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > JJ - Very eloquent writing on your part. I agree that it is mostly the oldsters that are keeping Eckankar going. I mentioned this in one of my first posts on ET/ESA when I first left Eckankar in December of 2008. I think there are fewer and fewer potential new members who are interested in Klemp's dream-based version of Eckankar. In other words, the emphasizing of dreams for spiritual unfoldment. In my own experiences, all of my work was in full consciousness actually talking to Eck masters on the inner. For that, I was made to feel like a heretic and pariah when I started telling the Eckists over at a.r.e about it. While in Eckankar, I didn't even dare mention it to all but two or three people. So anyone who has capabilities beyond the "dreaming" techniques currently in Eckankar, you would be better off choosing a more advanced path. I don't know what it is, but you might consider a real Native American shaman if you can find one, and if you can handle the rigors of that. An it's not "easy" like Eckankar is. Looking at the big picture, I think it might be OK to get some basic spiritual awareness under Eckankar or some other religion, but after that, move on, because Eckankar has little to offer.
                                  >
                                  > JJ - So, postekcon, thanks for your post. It was very well written, and very eloquently written. You made a lot of points, and I agree with virtually all of them.
                                  >
                                  > Jonathan
                                  >
                                • etznab@aol.com
                                  I could identify with a number of points in that appraisal. I liked this part especially: BTW- In the business world, when a product matches the market forces
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Sep 18, 2010
                                    I could identify with a number of points in
                                    that appraisal. I liked this part especially:

                                    "BTW- In the business world, when a product
                                    matches the market forces (consciousness)
                                    of the day, it is successful; it is never the
                                    other way round!"

                                    And about the youth, and consciousness,
                                    the youth of today have easy access to a
                                    lot more information and sources of inform-
                                    ation for research purposes, where most of
                                    the older generations had the library and a
                                    card catalog.

                                    I'd often thought about Paul Twitchell in the
                                    library, compiling and researching. And now
                                    I ask myself: WHY DID IT EVER STOP?

                                    Today, with the resources available, people
                                    can not only look at materials that Paul T.
                                    compiled & researched from, but they can
                                    take it further by continuing to compile and
                                    research (not forgetting to cite references &
                                    credit sources, of course). However, how
                                    much does it happen in organized religion?
                                    Because, doesn't it challenge the traditional
                                    existing dogma whenever a person decides
                                    to improve on it? Or, go beyond it? (Not to
                                    mention, expose it, give some history of it
                                    and show where it REALLY came from.)

                                    What are Eckankar's chances of seeing a
                                    "REFORMATION"? Personally, I think it's
                                    inevitable. The organization will change, or
                                    will become another fossil religion. Both of
                                    these forces are working antagonistic to
                                    one another in the lives of many people to-
                                    day, IMO. There is the traditional religious
                                    dogma and there is the need to change it.
                                    Some want change, and others are afraid
                                    of what that will mean to the old cherished
                                    dogma.

                                    Etznab

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: postekcon <postekcon@...>
                                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Fri, Sep 17, 2010 2:40 am
                                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: All ECKists Should Respond To
                                    This In Order To Vent

                                     
                                    EKULT, AN APPRAISAL

                                    I remember the ekult I joined 1970's. It seemed alive, vibrant, a
                                    movement which seemed to know what it was about and where it was going!
                                    Under the charismatic and artistic leadership of Darwin Gross
                                    membership numbers grew and grew. Because the movement was 'CURRENT'
                                    for the consciousness of those times, new members came with minimal
                                    recruitment effort!

                                    We were excited. Ekult promised us it had the 'tools' to experience
                                    greater individualism, freedom and spiritual 'unfoldment', and we
                                    believed the hype! We had grown up in the 'Flower Power' era and
                                    listening to The Beatles music! We were interested in TM
                                    (transcendental meditation), we were interested in all things 'eastern'
                                    and wanted to know more. Paul Twitchell too, was in-tune with this
                                    consciousness, he was 'CURRENT' for the times. The mail order education
                                    system he founded, matched those needs. Ignoring all plagiaristic
                                    issues here, the books and discourses he compiled from the works of
                                    other authors satisfied us for several years.

                                    However consciousness, being fluid, changes, moves on and around and
                                    ekult got left behind! Ekult shot itself in the foot, the day it gave
                                    leadership to Harold Klemp. Unlike Paul Twitchell he has never been
                                    able to tune-in to the consciousness (keep 'current'), produce or even
                                    'compile' works which are dynamic and relevant for the times.

                                    BTW- In the business world, when a product matches the market forces
                                    (consciousness) of the day, it is successful; it is never the other way
                                    round!

                                    You might like to observe the consciousness of youth and those who are
                                    under 30 years of age. They tend to live life to the extreme to the
                                    edge of experience e.g. extreme sports etc. They show NO fear of the
                                    creation of either sin or karma, or of the consequences of either,
                                    whether now or in a hereafter. This is why a karma-based, savior-style
                                    religion like the one HK develops makes no sense to their
                                    consciousness. Even their devoted ekult parents have been unable to
                                    indoctrinate them in ekult ways once they've left the childhood years.
                                    (HK himself included as such a parent, I believe!).

                                    Ekult is an organization born out of human arrogance! Consider this!
                                    What level of human arrogance is shown, where an earthly organization
                                    claims it has commandeered the very spirit of god (energy of the
                                    universe); claims it can trademark it in earthly law and then proceed
                                    to market it for profit!! This reminds me of a certain medieval
                                    church? It too claimed it had commandeered the way of 'salvation' for
                                    the gullible populace. That medieval church, with its
                                    resa-structure-style network of upwards reporting, soon descended the
                                    slippery slope to the 'Inquisition'. History has a habit of repeating
                                    itself…

                                    Perhaps if ekult had stayed with its original brief and admitted openly
                                    to the world, it had been founded as a 'reference' point for the best
                                    available philosophies and theories for living life, like a Wikipedia,
                                    then it might have remained 'CURRENT'. If only it had cleaned up its
                                    act, it could have evolved as an altruistic service and been of benefit
                                    to mankind today. Instead, seeing the opportunity for financial gain,
                                    HK and owner/s colluded to formulate yet another dead religion to add
                                    the world's list. The modus operandi reminds me again of that medieval
                                    church which once sold indulgences i.e. money to church in exchange for
                                    remission of sins in the hereafter! Similarly ekult devotees can gain
                                    prominence (get noticed) by spending lots of own time and money in
                                    ekult 'service', and are often rewarded with faster progress through
                                    the 'initiation' process. To put this very simply, in ekult, receipt of
                                    the next initiation signifies the remission of some sin (karma)!

                                    'Service' to ekult is always emphasized and hyped as being direct
                                    service to the spirit of god! But Catch22 here as ekult also says the
                                    true godhead is a Being so detached, it has no interest whether mortals
                                    service it or not! What a clever ruse to induce 'service' for ekult
                                    coffers and hide its mlm business model. For those of you who may be
                                    unfamiliar with how ekult sources funding. In addition to church-plate
                                    style donations etc., ekult followers (like mlm affiliates) are
                                    expected to service promotional events and fund from their personal
                                    wallet promotional materials and products. More importantly, there is
                                    also a legal understanding that donations, collected at local level,
                                    belong to ekult HQ, and amounts are uploaded accordingly!

                                    In conclusion, what of any future for ekult – there is none – it's
                                    already too late? To my observations what remains are isolated pockets
                                    of ekult devotees mostly seniors, mostly single females! Grayed-out,
                                    like inactive pc commands, I note the dynamism and energy, I once
                                    admired, is long long dead, while larger and ever larger pics of their
                                    cultic leader casts its shadow over them…
                                    -Postekcon

                                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                                    <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hello Jonathan,
                                    > Thanks. I don't know what I said,
                                    > but thanks anyway. Sometimes
                                    > I think I should write and thank
                                    > Klemp for being such a boring
                                    > wannabe who lacks charisma.
                                    >
                                    > BTW-Imagine how many more
                                    > ECKists there would be, now, if
                                    > Klemp had even close to the same
                                    > amount of charisma as Twitchell
                                    > or Gross had.
                                    >
                                    > Plus, it seems that Klemp has
                                    > been in semi-retirement for
                                    > a number of years now. This
                                    > semi-seclusion/retirement
                                    > became more apparent when
                                    > he stopped traveling to major
                                    > ECK Seminars. I'm thinking that
                                    > he made more "cheesy" health
                                    > excuses to in order to justify
                                    > his changes in behaviour and
                                    > not wanting to travel.
                                    >
                                    > Remember the time HK talked
                                    > about eating too much cheese
                                    > and this had a negative health
                                    > effect upon him? He probably
                                    > got constipated! It was stupid
                                    > on his part, but isn't that called
                                    > gluttony too and is one of the
                                    > Five Passions of the Mind. One
                                    > would think that a Mahanta
                                    > (although not perfect) would
                                    > be higher in consciousness.
                                    >
                                    > However, Klemp turns even his
                                    > own lack of consciousness and
                                    > common sense around and uses
                                    > his ill health as an excuse. His
                                    > illnesses have now become the
                                    > result of taking on more Karma
                                    > for his chelas and acting as a karmic
                                    > "holding tank" so that his Chelas
                                    > and H.I.s can advance in consciousness
                                    > and, thereby, in their initiations.
                                    >
                                    > How's that worked out for ECKists?
                                    > In Eckankar today there are even
                                    > more restrictions/requirements
                                    > for H.I.s to qualify for the next
                                    > higher initiation and title (i.e. cleric,
                                    > initiator, ESA, RESA). And, thanks
                                    > to Klemp, there are no longer
                                    > Major ECK Seminars in California
                                    > and Florida in the colder months
                                    > of Oct. and March-April.
                                    >
                                    > BTW- Don't "Holding Tanks" get
                                    > emptied so that more can be taken
                                    > in? It's an on-going process/cycle
                                    > kind of like using that old "Snow
                                    > Ball Technique" over and over again.
                                    >
                                    > Well, this is all a moot point isn't
                                    > it. Klemp has no powers... he's a
                                    > fraud. I can see why he seems meek,
                                    > at times, since he is aware that it's
                                    > all a game he's playing and that
                                    > any day now he'll be discovered
                                    > for being a fraud. That's why he's
                                    > not letting ECKists know where
                                    > all the money is going since he's
                                    > hide enough away to take care
                                    > of himself just in case. But, what
                                    > will that take for more ECKists to
                                    > see through the facade? I don't know...
                                    > maybe HK dropping over dead or
                                    > having a stroke or maybe cancer?
                                    >
                                    > Don't get me wrong... I'd never
                                    > wish that on anyone, but it happens
                                    > everyday to all kinds of people and
                                    > even to H.I.s. (of course). Yes, H.I.s
                                    > are not special, and they get cancer
                                    > too! Thus, Klemp is not exempt
                                    > from this happening to him. Look
                                    > at Twitchell... he didn't predict
                                    > his heart attack and death! But,
                                    > according to his own EK scripture
                                    > (as the LEM/Mahanta) he should
                                    > have known well in advance as
                                    > to when he would be translating.
                                    >
                                    > However, in "Difficulties Of Being
                                    > The Living ECK Master" Paul was
                                    > meeting with his inner circle of
                                    > H.I.s (in a business meeting) on
                                    > the day of his death. The notes
                                    > and comments of that meeting
                                    > are given here. And, PT was making
                                    > plans for his future with Eckankar
                                    > in this meeting. Paul gave no indication
                                    > (just the opposite) of his impending
                                    > death on that very same night.
                                    >
                                    > This is just one more reason as
                                    > to why this historical ECK book
                                    > was not republished by Eckankar
                                    > (Klemp). It's not like "Difficulties"
                                    > can't be republished/reprinted
                                    > since Eckankar has its own printing
                                    > equipment, does the publishing,
                                    > and owns PT's copyrights. Thus,
                                    > this is just one more cover-up
                                    > showing that Eckankar is simply
                                    > another false teaching/religion
                                    > that can't keep it's promises in/for
                                    > this Here and Now.
                                    >
                                    > Prometheus
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Jonathan wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Prometheus,
                                    >
                                    > Thank you for the comments. I found them to be very helpful and
                                    very healing.
                                    >
                                    > Jonathan
                                    >
                                  • postekcon
                                    Thank you all for responses... My reference to the medieval church and the indulgences issue, i.e. money to church in exchange for remission of sin in the
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Sep 18, 2010
                                      Thank you all for responses...

                                      My reference to the medieval church and the 'indulgences' issue, i.e. money to church in exchange for remission of sin in the hereafter, was a special point for HK himself, which he will fully understand from his Lutheran upbringing...

                                      The indulgences issue was the great trigger point for the Protestant Reformation. The big irony here is LOL; we now see HK and his concocted church repeating history... 'Service' (time/money) to ekult in exchange for the remission of sin/karma!

                                      The lem, due to his high initiation level, claims he is god's rep in all universes. So how come, it is only those who 'service' ekult who are on his fast-track to spiritual enlightenment?

                                      A question, I know, many ekult devotees ask of themselves! Ekult is a religion where service to all life is recommended as a way of life! So why is it this 'service' must be in visible form for ekult, for it to actually count as 'service'?
                                      -Postekcon
                                      p.s. in original post, mlm = multi-level-marketing.



                                      Jonathan &

                                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I could identify with a number of points in
                                      > that appraisal. I liked this part especially:
                                      >
                                      > "BTW- In the business world, when a product
                                      > matches the market forces (consciousness)
                                      > of the day, it is successful; it is never the
                                      > other way round!"
                                      >
                                      > And about the youth, and consciousness,
                                      > the youth of today have easy access to a
                                      > lot more information and sources of inform-
                                      > ation for research purposes, where most of
                                      > the older generations had the library and a
                                      > card catalog.
                                      >
                                      > I'd often thought about Paul Twitchell in the
                                      > library, compiling and researching. And now
                                      > I ask myself: WHY DID IT EVER STOP?
                                      >
                                      > Today, with the resources available, people
                                      > can not only look at materials that Paul T.
                                      > compiled & researched from, but they can
                                      > take it further by continuing to compile and
                                      > research (not forgetting to cite references &
                                      > credit sources, of course). However, how
                                      > much does it happen in organized religion?
                                      > Because, doesn't it challenge the traditional
                                      > existing dogma whenever a person decides
                                      > to improve on it? Or, go beyond it? (Not to
                                      > mention, expose it, give some history of it
                                      > and show where it REALLY came from.)
                                      >
                                      > What are Eckankar's chances of seeing a
                                      > "REFORMATION"? Personally, I think it's
                                      > inevitable. The organization will change, or
                                      > will become another fossil religion. Both of
                                      > these forces are working antagonistic to
                                      > one another in the lives of many people to-
                                      > day, IMO. There is the traditional religious
                                      > dogma and there is the need to change it.
                                      > Some want change, and others are afraid
                                      > of what that will mean to the old cherished
                                      > dogma.
                                      >
                                      > Etznab
                                      >
                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                      > From: postekcon <postekcon@...>
                                      > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Sent: Fri, Sep 17, 2010 2:40 am
                                      > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: All ECKists Should Respond To
                                      > This In Order To Vent
                                      >
                                      >  
                                      > EKULT, AN APPRAISAL
                                      >
                                      > I remember the ekult I joined 1970's. It seemed alive, vibrant, a
                                      > movement which seemed to know what it was about and where it was going!
                                      > Under the charismatic and artistic leadership of Darwin Gross
                                      > membership numbers grew and grew. Because the movement was 'CURRENT'
                                      > for the consciousness of those times, new members came with minimal
                                      > recruitment effort!
                                      >
                                      > We were excited. Ekult promised us it had the 'tools' to experience
                                      > greater individualism, freedom and spiritual 'unfoldment', and we
                                      > believed the hype! We had grown up in the 'Flower Power' era and
                                      > listening to The Beatles music! We were interested in TM
                                      > (transcendental meditation), we were interested in all things 'eastern'
                                      > and wanted to know more. Paul Twitchell too, was in-tune with this
                                      > consciousness, he was 'CURRENT' for the times. The mail order education
                                      > system he founded, matched those needs. Ignoring all plagiaristic
                                      > issues here, the books and discourses he compiled from the works of
                                      > other authors satisfied us for several years.
                                      >
                                      > However consciousness, being fluid, changes, moves on and around and
                                      > ekult got left behind! Ekult shot itself in the foot, the day it gave
                                      > leadership to Harold Klemp. Unlike Paul Twitchell he has never been
                                      > able to tune-in to the consciousness (keep 'current'), produce or even
                                      > 'compile' works which are dynamic and relevant for the times.
                                      >
                                      > BTW- In the business world, when a product matches the market forces
                                      > (consciousness) of the day, it is successful; it is never the other way
                                      > round!
                                      >
                                      > You might like to observe the consciousness of youth and those who are
                                      > under 30 years of age. They tend to live life to the extreme to the
                                      > edge of experience e.g. extreme sports etc. They show NO fear of the
                                      > creation of either sin or karma, or of the consequences of either,
                                      > whether now or in a hereafter. This is why a karma-based, savior-style
                                      > religion like the one HK develops makes no sense to their
                                      > consciousness. Even their devoted ekult parents have been unable to
                                      > indoctrinate them in ekult ways once they've left the childhood years.
                                      > (HK himself included as such a parent, I believe!).
                                      >
                                      > Ekult is an organization born out of human arrogance! Consider this!
                                      > What level of human arrogance is shown, where an earthly organization
                                      > claims it has commandeered the very spirit of god (energy of the
                                      > universe); claims it can trademark it in earthly law and then proceed
                                      > to market it for profit!! This reminds me of a certain medieval
                                      > church? It too claimed it had commandeered the way of 'salvation' for
                                      > the gullible populace. That medieval church, with its
                                      > resa-structure-style network of upwards reporting, soon descended the
                                      > slippery slope to the 'Inquisition'. History has a habit of repeating
                                      > itself…
                                      >
                                      > Perhaps if ekult had stayed with its original brief and admitted openly
                                      > to the world, it had been founded as a 'reference' point for the best
                                      > available philosophies and theories for living life, like a Wikipedia,
                                      > then it might have remained 'CURRENT'. If only it had cleaned up its
                                      > act, it could have evolved as an altruistic service and been of benefit
                                      > to mankind today. Instead, seeing the opportunity for financial gain,
                                      > HK and owner/s colluded to formulate yet another dead religion to add
                                      > the world's list. The modus operandi reminds me again of that medieval
                                      > church which once sold indulgences i.e. money to church in exchange for
                                      > remission of sins in the hereafter! Similarly ekult devotees can gain
                                      > prominence (get noticed) by spending lots of own time and money in
                                      > ekult 'service', and are often rewarded with faster progress through
                                      > the 'initiation' process. To put this very simply, in ekult, receipt of
                                      > the next initiation signifies the remission of some sin (karma)!
                                      >
                                      > 'Service' to ekult is always emphasized and hyped as being direct
                                      > service to the spirit of god! But Catch22 here as ekult also says the
                                      > true godhead is a Being so detached, it has no interest whether mortals
                                      > service it or not! What a clever ruse to induce 'service' for ekult
                                      > coffers and hide its mlm business model. For those of you who may be
                                      > unfamiliar with how ekult sources funding. In addition to church-plate
                                      > style donations etc., ekult followers (like mlm affiliates) are
                                      > expected to service promotional events and fund from their personal
                                      > wallet promotional materials and products. More importantly, there is
                                      > also a legal understanding that donations, collected at local level,
                                      > belong to ekult HQ, and amounts are uploaded accordingly!
                                      >
                                      > In conclusion, what of any future for ekult â€" there is none â€" it's
                                      > already too late? To my observations what remains are isolated pockets
                                      > of ekult devotees mostly seniors, mostly single females! Grayed-out,
                                      > like inactive pc commands, I note the dynamism and energy, I once
                                      > admired, is long long dead, while larger and ever larger pics of their
                                      > cultic leader casts its shadow over them…
                                      > -Postekcon
                                      >
                                      > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                                      > prometheus_973@ wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Hello Jonathan,
                                      > > Thanks. I don't know what I said,
                                      > > but thanks anyway. Sometimes
                                      > > I think I should write and thank
                                      > > Klemp for being such a boring
                                      > > wannabe who lacks charisma.
                                      > >
                                      > > BTW-Imagine how many more
                                      > > ECKists there would be, now, if
                                      > > Klemp had even close to the same
                                      > > amount of charisma as Twitchell
                                      > > or Gross had.
                                      > >
                                      > > Plus, it seems that Klemp has
                                      > > been in semi-retirement for
                                      > > a number of years now. This
                                      > > semi-seclusion/retirement
                                      > > became more apparent when
                                      > > he stopped traveling to major
                                      > > ECK Seminars. I'm thinking that
                                      > > he made more "cheesy" health
                                      > > excuses to in order to justify
                                      > > his changes in behaviour and
                                      > > not wanting to travel.
                                      > >
                                      > > Remember the time HK talked
                                      > > about eating too much cheese
                                      > > and this had a negative health
                                      > > effect upon him? He probably
                                      > > got constipated! It was stupid
                                      > > on his part, but isn't that called
                                      > > gluttony too and is one of the
                                      > > Five Passions of the Mind. One
                                      > > would think that a Mahanta
                                      > > (although not perfect) would
                                      > > be higher in consciousness.
                                      > >
                                      > > However, Klemp turns even his
                                      > > own lack of consciousness and
                                      > > common sense around and uses
                                      > > his ill health as an excuse. His
                                      > > illnesses have now become the
                                      > > result of taking on more Karma
                                      > > for his chelas and acting as a karmic
                                      > > "holding tank" so that his Chelas
                                      > > and H.I.s can advance in consciousness
                                      > > and, thereby, in their initiations.
                                      > >
                                      > > How's that worked out for ECKists?
                                      > > In Eckankar today there are even
                                      > > more restrictions/requirements
                                      > > for H.I.s to qualify for the next
                                      > > higher initiation and title (i.e. cleric,
                                      > > initiator, ESA, RESA). And, thanks
                                      > > to Klemp, there are no longer
                                      > > Major ECK Seminars in California
                                      > > and Florida in the colder months
                                      > > of Oct. and March-April.
                                      > >
                                      > > BTW- Don't "Holding Tanks" get
                                      > > emptied so that more can be taken
                                      > > in? It's an on-going process/cycle
                                      > > kind of like using that old "Snow
                                      > > Ball Technique" over and over again.
                                      > >
                                      > > Well, this is all a moot point isn't
                                      > > it. Klemp has no powers... he's a
                                      > > fraud. I can see why he seems meek,
                                      > > at times, since he is aware that it's
                                      > > all a game he's playing and that
                                      > > any day now he'll be discovered
                                      > > for being a fraud. That's why he's
                                      > > not letting ECKists know where
                                      > > all the money is going since he's
                                      > > hide enough away to take care
                                      > > of himself just in case. But, what
                                      > > will that take for more ECKists to
                                      > > see through the facade? I don't know...
                                      > > maybe HK dropping over dead or
                                      > > having a stroke or maybe cancer?
                                      > >
                                      > > Don't get me wrong... I'd never
                                      > > wish that on anyone, but it happens
                                      > > everyday to all kinds of people and
                                      > > even to H.I.s. (of course). Yes, H.I.s
                                      > > are not special, and they get cancer
                                      > > too! Thus, Klemp is not exempt
                                      > > from this happening to him. Look
                                      > > at Twitchell... he didn't predict
                                      > > his heart attack and death! But,
                                      > > according to his own EK scripture
                                      > > (as the LEM/Mahanta) he should
                                      > > have known well in advance as
                                      > > to when he would be translating.
                                      > >
                                      > > However, in "Difficulties Of Being
                                      > > The Living ECK Master" Paul was
                                      > > meeting with his inner circle of
                                      > > H.I.s (in a business meeting) on
                                      > > the day of his death. The notes
                                      > > and comments of that meeting
                                      > > are given here. And, PT was making
                                      > > plans for his future with Eckankar
                                      > > in this meeting. Paul gave no indication
                                      > > (just the opposite) of his impending
                                      > > death on that very same night.
                                      > >
                                      > > This is just one more reason as
                                      > > to why this historical ECK book
                                      > > was not republished by Eckankar
                                      > > (Klemp). It's not like "Difficulties"
                                      > > can't be republished/reprinted
                                      > > since Eckankar has its own printing
                                      > > equipment, does the publishing,
                                      > > and owns PT's copyrights. Thus,
                                      > > this is just one more cover-up
                                      > > showing that Eckankar is simply
                                      > > another false teaching/religion
                                      > > that can't keep it's promises in/for
                                      > > this Here and Now.
                                      > >
                                      > > Prometheus
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Jonathan wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Prometheus,
                                      > >
                                      > > Thank you for the comments. I found them to be very helpful and
                                      > very healing.
                                      > >
                                      > > Jonathan
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • prometheus_973
                                      Hello Postekcon and All, Thanks for the post. Yes, it seems that indulgences have taken on the name of service with Eckankar. However, indulgences were
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Sep 19, 2010
                                        Hello Postekcon and All,
                                        Thanks for the post. Yes, it seems that
                                        "indulgences" have taken on the name
                                        of "service" with Eckankar. However,
                                        indulgences were strictly sold for money.
                                        Klemp, however, needs a free/volunteer
                                        sales team to sell his wares (and Eckankar's),
                                        while he gets 50% royalties for anything
                                        with his name on it.

                                        But, what do these ECKists get on the
                                        lower planes for/from their lower plane
                                        service? Well, if you're a 7th Initiate and
                                        an ESA and don't want the headache
                                        of being a RESA then you don't get
                                        anything because you've hit the glass
                                        ceiling.

                                        Maybe one can be a Director within
                                        the Satsang but that's a pain with
                                        people calling you all the time and
                                        then having to write reports and plan
                                        events etc. Plus you have to call people
                                        and remind them to write and turn
                                        in their reports to you! Except for
                                        being in the limelight and having
                                        some power it's really not worth it.
                                        But, for some the small amount of
                                        power and notoriety would be worth
                                        it the hassle I guess but it won't get
                                        you anywhere except to be considered
                                        for the RESA's spot when/if it opens
                                        up. The RESA position is a status
                                        position, but for those 7ths who
                                        have been there and done that
                                        there's nothing else except the
                                        hope of getting an 8th. But Klemp
                                        is a tight ass and doesn't want to
                                        share the wealth so kiss that 8th
                                        good-bye. But who knows...
                                        Of course that's another Catch-22.
                                        If an ECKists desires or covenants
                                        that 8th (or whatever) too much
                                        then this is why it won't come.
                                        But if you "surrender" and give-
                                        up your desires then it becomes
                                        more possible, but still improbable.
                                        That's the "carrot" that is dangled
                                        in front of their noses and keeps
                                        them distracted in yet another
                                        manmade religion.

                                        Anyway, if you're not yet an ESA or
                                        a 7th Initiate then you are more motivated
                                        to play the game. Status and power are
                                        the motivators (along with the promises
                                        of all the "higher heavenly" benefits one
                                        can imagine). Some people need religion.
                                        The irony is that ECKists see themselves
                                        "above" all other religions while not
                                        seeing that they have fallen into the
                                        same religious trap.

                                        Prometheus

                                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "postekcon" <postekcon@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Thank you all for responses...
                                        >
                                        > My reference to the medieval church and the 'indulgences' issue, i.e. money to church in exchange for remission of sin in the hereafter, was a special point for HK himself, which he will fully understand from his Lutheran upbringing...
                                        >
                                        > The indulgences issue was the great trigger point for the Protestant Reformation. The big irony here is LOL; we now see HK and his concocted church repeating history... 'Service' (time/money) to ekult in exchange for the remission of sin/karma!
                                        >
                                        > The lem, due to his high initiation level, claims he is god's rep in all universes. So how come, it is only those who 'service' ekult who are on his fast-track to spiritual enlightenment?
                                        >
                                        > A question, I know, many ekult devotees ask of themselves! Ekult is a religion where service to all life is recommended as a way of life! So why is it this 'service' must be in visible form for ekult, for it to actually count as 'service'?
                                        > -Postekcon
                                        > p.s. in original post, mlm = multi-level-marketing.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Jonathan &
                                        >
                                        > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > I could identify with a number of points in
                                        > > that appraisal. I liked this part especially:
                                        > >
                                        > > "BTW- In the business world, when a product
                                        > > matches the market forces (consciousness)
                                        > > of the day, it is successful; it is never the
                                        > > other way round!"
                                        > >
                                        > > And about the youth, and consciousness,
                                        > > the youth of today have easy access to a
                                        > > lot more information and sources of inform-
                                        > > ation for research purposes, where most of
                                        > > the older generations had the library and a
                                        > > card catalog.
                                        > >
                                        > > I'd often thought about Paul Twitchell in the
                                        > > library, compiling and researching. And now
                                        > > I ask myself: WHY DID IT EVER STOP?
                                        > >
                                        > > Today, with the resources available, people
                                        > > can not only look at materials that Paul T.
                                        > > compiled & researched from, but they can
                                        > > take it further by continuing to compile and
                                        > > research (not forgetting to cite references &
                                        > > credit sources, of course). However, how
                                        > > much does it happen in organized religion?
                                        > > Because, doesn't it challenge the traditional
                                        > > existing dogma whenever a person decides
                                        > > to improve on it? Or, go beyond it? (Not to
                                        > > mention, expose it, give some history of it
                                        > > and show where it REALLY came from.)
                                        > >
                                        > > What are Eckankar's chances of seeing a
                                        > > "REFORMATION"? Personally, I think it's
                                        > > inevitable. The organization will change, or
                                        > > will become another fossil religion. Both of
                                        > > these forces are working antagonistic to
                                        > > one another in the lives of many people to-
                                        > > day, IMO. There is the traditional religious
                                        > > dogma and there is the need to change it.
                                        > > Some want change, and others are afraid
                                        > > of what that will mean to the old cherished
                                        > > dogma.
                                        > >
                                        > > Etznab
                                        > >
                                        > > -----Original Message-----
                                        > > From: postekcon <postekcon@>
                                        > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > Sent: Fri, Sep 17, 2010 2:40 am
                                        > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: All ECKists Should Respond To
                                        > > This In Order To Vent
                                        > >
                                        > >  
                                        > > EKULT, AN APPRAISAL
                                        > >
                                        > > I remember the ekult I joined 1970's. It seemed alive, vibrant, a
                                        > > movement which seemed to know what it was about and where it was going!
                                        > > Under the charismatic and artistic leadership of Darwin Gross
                                        > > membership numbers grew and grew. Because the movement was 'CURRENT'
                                        > > for the consciousness of those times, new members came with minimal
                                        > > recruitment effort!
                                        > >
                                        > > We were excited. Ekult promised us it had the 'tools' to experience
                                        > > greater individualism, freedom and spiritual 'unfoldment', and we
                                        > > believed the hype! We had grown up in the 'Flower Power' era and
                                        > > listening to The Beatles music! We were interested in TM
                                        > > (transcendental meditation), we were interested in all things 'eastern'
                                        > > and wanted to know more. Paul Twitchell too, was in-tune with this
                                        > > consciousness, he was 'CURRENT' for the times. The mail order education
                                        > > system he founded, matched those needs. Ignoring all plagiaristic
                                        > > issues here, the books and discourses he compiled from the works of
                                        > > other authors satisfied us for several years.
                                        > >
                                        > > However consciousness, being fluid, changes, moves on and around and
                                        > > ekult got left behind! Ekult shot itself in the foot, the day it gave
                                        > > leadership to Harold Klemp. Unlike Paul Twitchell he has never been
                                        > > able to tune-in to the consciousness (keep 'current'), produce or even
                                        > > 'compile' works which are dynamic and relevant for the times.
                                        > >
                                        > > BTW- In the business world, when a product matches the market forces
                                        > > (consciousness) of the day, it is successful; it is never the other way
                                        > > round!
                                        > >
                                        > > You might like to observe the consciousness of youth and those who are
                                        > > under 30 years of age. They tend to live life to the extreme to the
                                        > > edge of experience e.g. extreme sports etc. They show NO fear of the
                                        > > creation of either sin or karma, or of the consequences of either,
                                        > > whether now or in a hereafter. This is why a karma-based, savior-style
                                        > > religion like the one HK develops makes no sense to their
                                        > > consciousness. Even their devoted ekult parents have been unable to
                                        > > indoctrinate them in ekult ways once they've left the childhood years.
                                        > > (HK himself included as such a parent, I believe!).
                                        > >
                                        > > Ekult is an organization born out of human arrogance! Consider this!
                                        > > What level of human arrogance is shown, where an earthly organization
                                        > > claims it has commandeered the very spirit of god (energy of the
                                        > > universe); claims it can trademark it in earthly law and then proceed
                                        > > to market it for profit!! This reminds me of a certain medieval
                                        > > church? It too claimed it had commandeered the way of 'salvation' for
                                        > > the gullible populace. That medieval church, with its
                                        > > resa-structure-style network of upwards reporting, soon descended the
                                        > > slippery slope to the 'Inquisition'. History has a habit of repeating
                                        > > itself…
                                        > >
                                        > > Perhaps if ekult had stayed with its original brief and admitted openly
                                        > > to the world, it had been founded as a 'reference' point for the best
                                        > > available philosophies and theories for living life, like a Wikipedia,
                                        > > then it might have remained 'CURRENT'. If only it had cleaned up its
                                        > > act, it could have evolved as an altruistic service and been of benefit
                                        > > to mankind today. Instead, seeing the opportunity for financial gain,
                                        > > HK and owner/s colluded to formulate yet another dead religion to add
                                        > > the world's list. The modus operandi reminds me again of that medieval
                                        > > church which once sold indulgences i.e. money to church in exchange for
                                        > > remission of sins in the hereafter! Similarly ekult devotees can gain
                                        > > prominence (get noticed) by spending lots of own time and money in
                                        > > ekult 'service', and are often rewarded with faster progress through
                                        > > the 'initiation' process. To put this very simply, in ekult, receipt of
                                        > > the next initiation signifies the remission of some sin (karma)!
                                        > >
                                        > > 'Service' to ekult is always emphasized and hyped as being direct
                                        > > service to the spirit of god! But Catch22 here as ekult also says the
                                        > > true godhead is a Being so detached, it has no interest whether mortals
                                        > > service it or not! What a clever ruse to induce 'service' for ekult
                                        > > coffers and hide its mlm business model. For those of you who may be
                                        > > unfamiliar with how ekult sources funding. In addition to church-plate
                                        > > style donations etc., ekult followers (like mlm affiliates) are
                                        > > expected to service promotional events and fund from their personal
                                        > > wallet promotional materials and products. More importantly, there is
                                        > > also a legal understanding that donations, collected at local level,
                                        > > belong to ekult HQ, and amounts are uploaded accordingly!
                                        > >
                                        > > In conclusion, what of any future for ekult â€" there is none â€" it's
                                        > > already too late? To my observations what remains are isolated pockets
                                        > > of ekult devotees mostly seniors, mostly single females! Grayed-out,
                                        > > like inactive pc commands, I note the dynamism and energy, I once
                                        > > admired, is long long dead, while larger and ever larger pics of their
                                        > > cultic leader casts its shadow over them…
                                        > > -Postekcon
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                                        > > prometheus_973@ wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Hello Jonathan,
                                        > > > Thanks. I don't know what I said,
                                        > > > but thanks anyway. Sometimes
                                        > > > I think I should write and thank
                                        > > > Klemp for being such a boring
                                        > > > wannabe who lacks charisma.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > BTW-Imagine how many more
                                        > > > ECKists there would be, now, if
                                        > > > Klemp had even close to the same
                                        > > > amount of charisma as Twitchell
                                        > > > or Gross had.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Plus, it seems that Klemp has
                                        > > > been in semi-retirement for
                                        > > > a number of years now. This
                                        > > > semi-seclusion/retirement
                                        > > > became more apparent when
                                        > > > he stopped traveling to major
                                        > > > ECK Seminars. I'm thinking that
                                        > > > he made more "cheesy" health
                                        > > > excuses to in order to justify
                                        > > > his changes in behaviour and
                                        > > > not wanting to travel.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Remember the time HK talked
                                        > > > about eating too much cheese
                                        > > > and this had a negative health
                                        > > > effect upon him? He probably
                                        > > > got constipated! It was stupid
                                        > > > on his part, but isn't that called
                                        > > > gluttony too and is one of the
                                        > > > Five Passions of the Mind. One
                                        > > > would think that a Mahanta
                                        > > > (although not perfect) would
                                        > > > be higher in consciousness.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > However, Klemp turns even his
                                        > > > own lack of consciousness and
                                        > > > common sense around and uses
                                        > > > his ill health as an excuse. His
                                        > > > illnesses have now become the
                                        > > > result of taking on more Karma
                                        > > > for his chelas and acting as a karmic
                                        > > > "holding tank" so that his Chelas
                                        > > > and H.I.s can advance in consciousness
                                        > > > and, thereby, in their initiations.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > How's that worked out for ECKists?
                                        > > > In Eckankar today there are even
                                        > > > more restrictions/requirements
                                        > > > for H.I.s to qualify for the next
                                        > > > higher initiation and title (i.e. cleric,
                                        > > > initiator, ESA, RESA). And, thanks
                                        > > > to Klemp, there are no longer
                                        > > > Major ECK Seminars in California
                                        > > > and Florida in the colder months
                                        > > > of Oct. and March-April.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > BTW- Don't "Holding Tanks" get
                                        > > > emptied so that more can be taken
                                        > > > in? It's an on-going process/cycle
                                        > > > kind of like using that old "Snow
                                        > > > Ball Technique" over and over again.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Well, this is all a moot point isn't
                                        > > > it. Klemp has no powers... he's a
                                        > > > fraud. I can see why he seems meek,
                                        > > > at times, since he is aware that it's
                                        > > > all a game he's playing and that
                                        > > > any day now he'll be discovered
                                        > > > for being a fraud. That's why he's
                                        > > > not letting ECKists know where
                                        > > > all the money is going since he's
                                        > > > hide enough away to take care
                                        > > > of himself just in case. But, what
                                        > > > will that take for more ECKists to
                                        > > > see through the facade? I don't know...
                                        > > > maybe HK dropping over dead or
                                        > > > having a stroke or maybe cancer?
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Don't get me wrong... I'd never
                                        > > > wish that on anyone, but it happens
                                        > > > everyday to all kinds of people and
                                        > > > even to H.I.s. (of course). Yes, H.I.s
                                        > > > are not special, and they get cancer
                                        > > > too! Thus, Klemp is not exempt
                                        > > > from this happening to him. Look
                                        > > > at Twitchell... he didn't predict
                                        > > > his heart attack and death! But,
                                        > > > according to his own EK scripture
                                        > > > (as the LEM/Mahanta) he should
                                        > > > have known well in advance as
                                        > > > to when he would be translating.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > However, in "Difficulties Of Being
                                        > > > The Living ECK Master" Paul was
                                        > > > meeting with his inner circle of
                                        > > > H.I.s (in a business meeting) on
                                        > > > the day of his death. The notes
                                        > > > and comments of that meeting
                                        > > > are given here. And, PT was making
                                        > > > plans for his future with Eckankar
                                        > > > in this meeting. Paul gave no indication
                                        > > > (just the opposite) of his impending
                                        > > > death on that very same night.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > This is just one more reason as
                                        > > > to why this historical ECK book
                                        > > > was not republished by Eckankar
                                        > > > (Klemp). It's not like "Difficulties"
                                        > > > can't be republished/reprinted
                                        > > > since Eckankar has its own printing
                                        > > > equipment, does the publishing,
                                        > > > and owns PT's copyrights. Thus,
                                        > > > this is just one more cover-up
                                        > > > showing that Eckankar is simply
                                        > > > another false teaching/religion
                                        > > > that can't keep it's promises in/for
                                        > > > this Here and Now.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Prometheus
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Jonathan wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Prometheus,
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Thank you for the comments. I found them to be very helpful and
                                        > > very healing.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Jonathan
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • prometheus_973
                                        Hello Postekcon and All, I ve really enjoyed the reading the insights from all of the responses. Yes, I was once a Catholic so I know something about the
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Sep 19, 2010
                                          Hello Postekcon and All,
                                          I've really enjoyed the reading the insights
                                          from all of the responses. Yes, I was once
                                          a Catholic so I know something about the
                                          Church's sorted past involving indulgences.
                                          It seems that Klemp has modeled his version
                                          of ECKankar after the Lutheran version of
                                          the Catholic Church. After all, it's what he
                                          was taught in seminary school so why not
                                          go with what's familiar.

                                          If Klemp would have just pulled the names
                                          of some recommended H.I.s from a hat,
                                          BUT those who are Not participating within
                                          "service" areas, it would have given the
                                          impression (although false) that, perhaps,
                                          "inner" qualifications were still valid litmus
                                          tests for Initiation. However, I've never
                                          seen a 7th Initiate who was not, at least,
                                          a cleric, initiator, etc!

                                          What ever happened to "The ECK
                                          Contemplative Order" or whatever it was
                                          called?" I think it's briefly mentioned in
                                          "The Holy Fire of ECK" Book One (pg.60?).

                                          Prometheus

                                          postekcon wrote:
                                          Thank you all for responses...

                                          My reference to the medieval church and the 'indulgences' issue, i.e. money to
                                          church in exchange for remission of sin in the hereafter, was a special point
                                          for HK himself, which he will fully understand from his Lutheran upbringing...

                                          The indulgences issue was the great trigger point for the Protestant
                                          Reformation. The big irony here is LOL; we now see HK and his concocted church
                                          repeating history... 'Service' (time/money) to ekult in exchange for the
                                          remission of sin/karma!

                                          The lem, due to his high initiation level, claims he is god's rep in all
                                          universes. So how come, it is only those who 'service' ekult who are on his
                                          fast-track to spiritual enlightenment?

                                          A question, I know, many ekult devotees ask of themselves! Ekult is a religion
                                          where service to all life is recommended as a way of life! So why is it this
                                          'service' must be in visible form for ekult, for it to actually count as
                                          'service'?
                                          -Postekcon
                                          p.s. in original post, mlm = multi-level-marketing.



                                          Jonathan &

                                          etznab@... wrote:
                                          >
                                          > I could identify with a number of points in
                                          > that appraisal. I liked this part especially:
                                          >
                                          > "BTW- In the business world, when a product
                                          > matches the market forces (consciousness)
                                          > of the day, it is successful; it is never the
                                          > other way round!"
                                          >
                                          > And about the youth, and consciousness,
                                          > the youth of today have easy access to a
                                          > lot more information and sources of inform-
                                          > ation for research purposes, where most of
                                          > the older generations had the library and a
                                          > card catalog.
                                          >
                                          > I'd often thought about Paul Twitchell in the
                                          > library, compiling and researching. And now
                                          > I ask myself: WHY DID IT EVER STOP?
                                          >
                                          > Today, with the resources available, people
                                          > can not only look at materials that Paul T.
                                          > compiled & researched from, but they can
                                          > take it further by continuing to compile and
                                          > research (not forgetting to cite references &
                                          > credit sources, of course). However, how
                                          > much does it happen in organized religion?
                                          > Because, doesn't it challenge the traditional
                                          > existing dogma whenever a person decides
                                          > to improve on it? Or, go beyond it? (Not to
                                          > mention, expose it, give some history of it
                                          > and show where it REALLY came from.)
                                          >
                                          > What are Eckankar's chances of seeing a
                                          > "REFORMATION"? Personally, I think it's
                                          > inevitable. The organization will change, or
                                          > will become another fossil religion. Both of
                                          > these forces are working antagonistic to
                                          > one another in the lives of many people to-
                                          > day, IMO. There is the traditional religious
                                          > dogma and there is the need to change it.
                                          > Some want change, and others are afraid
                                          > of what that will mean to the old cherished
                                          > dogma.
                                          >
                                          > Etznab
                                          >
                                          > -----Original Message-----
                                          > From: postekcon
                                          > This In Order To Vent
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > EKULT, AN APPRAISAL
                                          >
                                          > I remember the ekult I joined 1970's. It seemed alive, vibrant, a
                                          > movement which seemed to know what it was about and where it was going!
                                          > Under the charismatic and artistic leadership of Darwin Gross
                                          > membership numbers grew and grew. Because the movement was 'CURRENT'
                                          > for the consciousness of those times, new members came with minimal
                                          > recruitment effort!
                                          >
                                          > We were excited. Ekult promised us it had the 'tools' to experience
                                          > greater individualism, freedom and spiritual 'unfoldment', and we
                                          > believed the hype! We had grown up in the 'Flower Power' era and
                                          > listening to The Beatles music! We were interested in TM
                                          > (transcendental meditation), we were interested in all things 'eastern'
                                          > and wanted to know more. Paul Twitchell too, was in-tune with this
                                          > consciousness, he was 'CURRENT' for the times. The mail order education
                                          > system he founded, matched those needs. Ignoring all plagiaristic
                                          > issues here, the books and discourses he compiled from the works of
                                          > other authors satisfied us for several years.
                                          >
                                          > However consciousness, being fluid, changes, moves on and around and
                                          > ekult got left behind! Ekult shot itself in the foot, the day it gave
                                          > leadership to Harold Klemp. Unlike Paul Twitchell he has never been
                                          > able to tune-in to the consciousness (keep 'current'), produce or even
                                          > 'compile' works which are dynamic and relevant for the times.
                                          >
                                          > BTW- In the business world, when a product matches the market forces
                                          > (consciousness) of the day, it is successful; it is never the other way
                                          > round!
                                          >
                                          > You might like to observe the consciousness of youth and those who are
                                          > under 30 years of age. They tend to live life to the extreme to the
                                          > edge of experience e.g. extreme sports etc. They show NO fear of the
                                          > creation of either sin or karma, or of the consequences of either,
                                          > whether now or in a hereafter. This is why a karma-based, savior-style
                                          > religion like the one HK develops makes no sense to their
                                          > consciousness. Even their devoted ekult parents have been unable to
                                          > indoctrinate them in ekult ways once they've left the childhood years.
                                          > (HK himself included as such a parent, I believe!).
                                          >
                                          > Ekult is an organization born out of human arrogance! Consider this!
                                          > What level of human arrogance is shown, where an earthly organization
                                          > claims it has commandeered the very spirit of god (energy of the
                                          > universe); claims it can trademark it in earthly law and then proceed
                                          > to market it for profit!! This reminds me of a certain medieval
                                          > church? It too claimed it had commandeered the way of 'salvation' for
                                          > the gullible populace. That medieval church, with its
                                          > resa-structure-style network of upwards reporting, soon descended the
                                          > slippery slope to the 'Inquisition'. History has a habit of repeating
                                          > itself.
                                          >
                                          > Perhaps if ekult had stayed with its original brief and admitted openly
                                          > to the world, it had been founded as a 'reference' point for the best
                                          > available philosophies and theories for living life, like a Wikipedia,
                                          > then it might have remained 'CURRENT'. If only it had cleaned up its
                                          > act, it could have evolved as an altruistic service and been of benefit
                                          > to mankind today. Instead, seeing the opportunity for financial gain,
                                          > HK and owner/s colluded to formulate yet another dead religion to add
                                          > the world's list. The modus operandi reminds me again of that medieval
                                          > church which once sold indulgences i.e. money to church in exchange for
                                          > remission of sins in the hereafter! Similarly ekult devotees can gain
                                          > prominence (get noticed) by spending lots of own time and money in
                                          > ekult 'service', and are often rewarded with faster progress through
                                          > the 'initiation' process. To put this very simply, in ekult, receipt of
                                          > the next initiation signifies the remission of some sin (karma)!
                                          >
                                          > 'Service' to ekult is always emphasized and hyped as being direct
                                          > service to the spirit of god! But Catch22 here as ekult also says the
                                          > true godhead is a Being so detached, it has no interest whether mortals
                                          > service it or not! What a clever ruse to induce 'service' for ekult
                                          > coffers and hide its mlm business model. For those of you who may be
                                          > unfamiliar with how ekult sources funding. In addition to church-plate
                                          > style donations etc., ekult followers (like mlm affiliates) are
                                          > expected to service promotional events and fund from their personal
                                          > wallet promotional materials and products. More importantly, there is
                                          > also a legal understanding that donations, collected at local level,
                                          > belong to ekult HQ, and amounts are uploaded accordingly!
                                          >
                                          > In conclusion, what of any future for ekult there is none it's
                                          > already too late? To my observations what remains are isolated pockets
                                          > of ekult devotees mostly seniors, mostly single females! Grayed-out,
                                          > like inactive pc commands, I note the dynamism and energy, I once
                                          > admired, is long long dead, while larger and ever larger pics of their
                                          > cultic leader casts its shadow over them.
                                          > -Postekcon
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