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All ECKists Should Respond To This In Order To Vent

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  • prometheus_973
    I m asking all of the lurking ECKists, here, to respond and vent their frustrations with Klemp, Eckankar, their RESA, etc. What is it that you don t like, but
    Message 1 of 22 , Sep 11, 2010
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      I'm asking all of the lurking ECKists,
      here, to respond and vent their
      frustrations with Klemp, Eckankar,
      their RESA, etc.

      What is it that you don't like, but have
      to keep to yourself?

      How's that local ECK Newsletter going?

      How are the Satsang classes doing?

      When's the last time Klemp wrote a
      discourse? Oh well, he's got more
      important things on his mind like
      his next worthless redundant book.

      NOTE: Don't share your unhappiness
      with this site I understand that. Instead,
      share about what bugs you about your
      RESA, about Eckankar, about Klemp or
      the ECK Teachings in general etc.

      What would get you Black Listed, demoted,
      or shunned by fellow ECKists if you chose
      to speak you mind and not bite your tongue.
      Share your true, repressed, feelings about
      the direction ECKankar has taken over the
      past 28 years.

      How's are those ECK Worship Services?
      Do the topics seem limited and/or need
      to be from an "pre-approved" list? How
      are the turnouts for those HU Chants and
      Open Houses? Low to zero I'll bet. Still,
      Klemp needs to sell his materials...
      because you will have good karma and
      be noticed for that next initiation approval.

      Lurkers: Start another Yahoo account in
      order to share anonymously. We want to
      hear about the real Eckankar that EKists
      aren't permitted to discuss openly or
      even behind closed doors!

      BTW- Former ECKists and members of
      ESA can, also, share what their complaints
      were back when they/we were still
      ECKists.

      One thing that I never liked is that
      I could not criticize anything, or
      anyone's behaviour when I saw
      something wrong or out of place.
      This was one reason as to why I
      volunteered for leadership positions
      and was promoted to high Satsang
      positions. I could now change pictures
      etc. in the ECK Center. Still, I had
      to be very careful as to how I approached
      some things and some people who
      were not following the Guidelines,
      as well as, those ECKists with behavioural/
      psychological problems. This, at times,
      was like walking upon eggshells.

      My first RESA was very rigid, analytical,
      critical, intimidating, insensitive, controlling,
      detail/business oriented, hot and cold,
      suspicious and thought she could read
      people's minds! She did have her good-
      sides, but when she was focused upon
      her ECK duties she became too serious
      and put her guard up. This caused her
      "good-side" to fluctuate off/on. What's
      even funnier is that she was one of Klemp's
      top RESAs and is probably still on a short
      list for the 8th initiation. I admit that
      I did learn a lot about the internal workings
      of the ECKankar org from her even
      though I had to take some abuse from
      her from time-to-time. The key is to
      keep smiling and act happy regardless!
      This is a big part of playing HK's game.

      Anyway, It was a challenge to get on
      her good-side and nobody wanted to
      be on her bad-side. I saw that happen
      every now and then and it wasn't pretty.
      She had a hot/quick temper too!
      IMO-Her main weaknesses were
      in thinking too highly of herself (as
      a RESA and a Guardian) and too highly
      of her mental and "spiritual" abilities
      and authority. Some of the people/EK
      issues that she felt she had problems
      with were actually very trivial in the large
      scheme of things. There was, also, a
      lot of micro-management and "looking
      over the shoulder" taking place. She
      definitely contributed to several H.I.s
      pulling back and dropping out-of-sight.
      She probably saw it as good riddance
      or if you can't take the heat... Then again,
      if the "quality" of belief or ability or
      "consciousness" was ever an issue to
      begin with, then, why have so many
      duds/losers been promoted to the 5th,
      6th and 7th Initiations? That was another
      question that couldn't really be asked.
      Except, one typical answer is that,
      "consciousness comes and goes daily
      or moment to moment and even ECK
      Masters can fall." However, that's also
      why Klemp's words hold no real value
      either. When he changes his on-stage
      talks he could be coming from a KAL
      state of consciousness. Thus, this lower
      consciousness gets broadcast, recorded,
      and transcribed into books. Or, what HK
      doesn't change can be from a lower,
      fluctuating, state of con as well.

      Still, I had to be careful and could not
      criticize anything outside of my local
      Satsang area. The nonsense and orders
      coming from the ESC could Not be
      questioned (although I would at times).
      They wanted us to set up experimental
      programs and trainings to see if these
      could be used nation or worldwide.
      Of course other select Satsang areas
      were doing the same thing or had a
      different assignment. It amounted to
      a lot of "busy work" and some things
      did eventually get implemented but
      much was never accepted and was
      discarded or filed away at the ESC.
      Plus, it took forever to get a definitive
      answer on anything, except membership
      issues, from the ESC.

      The Early Vahana Projects were, also,
      used to "shake the tree" in order to reveal
      future EK leaders (worker bees). Today,
      "projects" are still used for this purpose.
      Unfortunately, the ongoing public promotion
      of ECKankar, and of Klemp, has nothing
      to do with real Spiritual growth and God-
      Realization. That was why I joined ECKankar
      in the first place! It Wasn't to bring in
      money for Klemp's palaces!

      BTW- It really is too bad that we can't see
      where ALL the ECKankar money goes... payroll,
      retirement, houses, stocks and bonds, cars,
      health insurance, real estate investments,
      foreign bank accounts, etc. I'll bet the EK
      Board doesn't get to see a detailed list either.

      Basically, these are the four main principles
      that Klemp has ECKists follow:

      1. the Inflow-outflow karma/growth principle;
      2. the Co-worker with God principle;
      3. the selling of ECKankar/Klemp principle;
      4. the Initiation carrot principle.

      These four HK/EK principles take precedence
      over everything else. In fact, there is no other
      focus.

      Prometheus
    • jonathanjohns96
      Prometheus, I wrote something up exactly ten days after I left Eckankar. It was a list explaining why I left Eckankar. Here is a link to it on my personal
      Message 2 of 22 , Sep 11, 2010
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        Prometheus,

        I wrote something up exactly ten days after I left Eckankar. It was  a list explaining why I left Eckankar. Here is a link to it on my personal message board:


        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/58PastLives/message/581

        ==========

        Diary entry from 10 days after I left Eckankar in December 2008 - Why I left Eckankar

        Below is an entry from my Diary on Dec 27, 2008 which is ten days after I resigned from Eckankar. I'm finding it very interesting to go back and read this stuff. And I don't think it is because I am egotistical. I like to see what I wrote in the two weeks after I resigned from Eckankar because back then I was right in the middle of it.

        By the way, in a previous post about an hour ago I mentioned that it was in 1995 to 2000 that I noticed that the Annandale worship services were for beginners. Below (a year and a half ago) I said that I noticed it in 2000-2003. I believe that I noticed it before 2000, but it started to really bother me from 1999 onward.

        ---------------------------------------------------
        Journal
        Saturday, December 27, 2008

        Diary in real time.

        6:13 AM
        I've been thinking about why I left Eckankar. Some of the reasons why I left Eckankar as related to specific events that took place.

        1. When I received my second initiation about three years into Eckankar at the ___________, Pennsylvania, Eck center. {circa 1982} When the initiator did the initiation she told me that I had to make a pledge that I would dedicate my life to the Living Eck master. I was really shocked and was thinking to myself "What is going on here? Did I join some kind of cult?"
        2. About six years into Eckankar when I first read in one of the Eckankar books that if you leave Eckankar, terrible things will happen to you (astral Hells, etc.)
        3. When I was attending the worship services in the Annandale, Virginia Eck center in 2000-2003 and I noticed that the worship services seemed to be for beginners in Eckankar.
        4. In the 2007-2008 time frame, I learned at the ___________ Eck center that I wasn't allowed to express a divergent opinion.
        5. Harold Klemp dummying-down the principles of Eckankar (a very major reason).
        6. Ego conflicts with other Eckists are a minor reason. Every organization is going to have people getting into ego conflicts with each other.
        6:25 AM

        6:27 AM
        Another thing I did recently (yesterday) was that I was looking through my Diary for where I spelled Eckankar in all upper case (ECKANKAR) and where I spelled in mixed case (Eckankar). What I discovered is that when I was feeling good about Eckankar, I capitalized all the letters. When I was feeling bad about it, I spelled in mixed case.
        ---------------------------------------------------


        ==========


        And I posted a clarification:


        Clarification on Diary for Dec 2008: Why I left Eckankar

        I thought thought I would clarify two things.

        Regarding #3:

        3. When I was attending the worship services in the Annandale, Virginia Eck center in 2000-2003 and I noticed that the worship services seemed to be for beginners in Eckankar.

        Back when I was attending these worship services and was being annoyed by the fact that the "services" seemed to be for beginners, I was thinking that the services seemed to be aimed at the new members of Eckankar. But around Oct- Dec, 2008, when I was in the process of leaving  Eckankar I found out directly from the director of another Eck center that the worship services were for non-members of Eckankar who might be coming to the services.

        I am clarifying this because some people reading my stuff may have seen what seems like an inconsistency in my writings. In one place I perceive the worship services as being for beginners in Eckankar, in another place, I say that they are for newcomers (non Eckists).

        - - - - - - - - - - -

        Regarding #6:

        6. Ego conflicts with other Eckists are a minor reason. Every organization is going to have people getting into ego conflicts with each other.

        There is no doubt that problems with members of Eckankar who acted like know-it-alls or who acted like their opinion was correct, but nobody else's mattered, were a huge problem for me when I was a member of Eckankar. But I always tried to tell myself that it wasn't a reason for my leaving Eckankar. For one thing, I had no plans of joining another religion where I might find fewer people like this. So although these people in Eckankar were annoying, I really don't think it was a major reason for my leaving Eckankar. I had to do a lot of healing on it after I left Eckankar so it is included in what I call "Eckankar-induced trauma." I just don't think that these problems with other Eckists had much impact on "why I left."

        ==========

        I've been thinking about this some more. This whole attitude of Eckists being intolerant of other's opinions (even other Eckists!) is very cult-like to me. I've been having a hard time accepting this, but maybe it was a significant reason as to why I left Eckankar. These people certainly annoyed the heck out of me. And it would be natural for me to just want to get away from people like that. I guess what could have
        really been bothering me is that Eckankar seemed to either (1) attract people like this, or (2) created people like this as a result of their membership in Eckankar. At least to some degree they are a reflection of some kind of "Eckankar-programmed mentality." In that sense, it probably was a contributing factor to why I left.

        Jonathan

      • prometheus_973
        Hello Jonathan, Thanks for sharing this. You ve jogged my memory and have reminded me of some other things that I d like to share after/under your Journal
        Message 3 of 22 , Sep 12, 2010
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          Hello Jonathan,
          Thanks for sharing this. You've
          jogged my memory and have
          reminded me of some other
          things that I'd like to share
          after/under your Journal entries.


          jonathan wrote:

          [snip]
          Diary entry from 10 days after I left Eckankar in December 2008 - Why I left
          Eckankar

          Below is an entry from my Diary on Dec 27, 2008 which is ten days after I
          resigned from Eckankar. I'm finding it very interesting to go back and read this
          stuff. And I don't think it is because I am egotistical. I like to see what I
          wrote in the two weeks after I resigned from Eckankar because back then I was
          right in the middle of it.

          By the way, in a previous post about an hour ago I mentioned that it was in 1995
          to 2000 that I noticed that the Annandale worship services were for beginners.
          Below (a year and a half ago) I said that I noticed it in 2000-2003. I believe
          that I noticed it before 2000, but it started to really bother me from 1999
          onward.

          ---------------------------------------------------
          Journal
          Saturday, December 27, 2008

          Diary in real time.

          6:13 AM
          I've been thinking about why I left Eckankar. Some of the reasons why I left
          Eckankar as related to specific events that took place.

          1. When I received my second initiation about three years into Eckankar at the
          ___________, Pennsylvania, Eck center. {circa 1982} When the initiator did the
          initiation she told me that I had to make a pledge that I would dedicate my life
          to the Living Eck master. I was really shocked and was thinking to myself "What
          is going on here? Did I join some kind of cult?"


          ***
          Prometheus [P]: The revelations in Ford's book
          "Confessions of a God Seeker" was the final
          straw for me. There were too many contradictions
          to ignore. I had been turning a blind-eye to
          the lies and doubts for years and tried to get
          with the program and believe, but I didn't have
          enough blind "faith." I had had spiritual experiences
          and revelations, etc. prior to Eckankar and these
          had nothing to do with Klemp or any "Mahanta"
          regardless of the 20/20 hindsight chicken/egg
          claims they try to promote. Klemp needs to
          communicate via snail-mail, talks, the printed
          word, emails, but can't on the "Inner" and that's
          an obvious truth that is constantly denied by all
          ECKists.

          Yes, as an ECKist, it was difficult to discover
          (and admit) that one's "Spiritual Growth,"
          in Eckankar, is dependent upon being a
          salesperson for Klemp and Company. And,
          you're not even permitted to see where
          the money goes. At least on the local level
          we could see where it went, but the ESC's
          Eckankar "Board" isn't privy to every expenditure
          and all of the assets. This raises a Red Flag
          since Eckankar is supposed to be open
          and above board.

          Sure, there are "secret spiritual teachings"
          to protect those with a lower consciousness
          so that they won't be "burned," but why
          is the business (4th Plane) side secret?
          BTW- Those "EK Secret Teachings" are just
          Mental Plane thoughts, words and concepts
          too!

          Eckankar practices Bait and Switch. H.I.s
          only tell people the good part (their
          subjective stories) or else people would
          be turned away by knowing the truth.
          It's not that these newbies can't handle it,
          but because most people will be able to
          see through the facade. After all, these
          unbrainwashed new-comers haven't had
          the on-going indoctrination that longtime
          H.I.s have. They would be looking at Eckanakr
          with new eyes and with clear and fresh
          perspectives and this would allow them
          to see the E-cult's trap. That's why Klemp
          trains his H.I.s to use "stories," with dreams
          and everyday miracles along with promises
          of greater experiences in order to reel the
          suckers in. However, it takes a special person
          to spread HK's bullshit. Most H.I.s can't lie
          or talk about experiences they haven't had.
          This is why they use other people's imagined
          or distorted stories and fabrications.
          ***

          2. About six years into Eckankar when I first read in one of the Eckankar books
          that if you leave Eckankar, terrible things will happen to you (astral Hells,
          etc.)

          ***
          [P] I can't remember that far back or what
          I though way back then about PT's scare
          tactics. However, It could be that this was
          one of the factors that caused me to have
          had doubts and to remain skeptical for
          years to come. This was too much like the
          religion that I had left and exchanged for
          "the highest spiritual path" (Eckankar).
          Why would the "highest spiritual path
          known to mankind (Eckankar)" try to
          scare their members in order to prevent
          them from leaving by making threats of
          Astral Hells? Wouldn't a "highly evolved
          religion" or spiritual path just let people
          go since they're obviously not ready to
          continue the Journey on that path? People
          make mistakes. Yet, according to Eckankar
          scripture, ECK members are condemned
          to Astral Hells if they (Soul) practice their
          God given right, "Free Will," and leave the
          EK fold. That's not right! And, this is one
          more problem, out of many, that I had
          with Twitchell's and Klemp's paranoid
          and controlling approach that is said to
          be "spiritual" and the "highest/fastest
          path to God-Realization." it's just more
          religious B.S.
          ***

          3. When I was attending the worship services in the Annandale, Virginia Eck
          center in 2000-2003 and I noticed that the worship services seemed to be for
          beginners in Eckankar.

          ***
          [P]: True, ECKists are discouraged from seeing
          and using this event as an actual Worship Service.
          The EWS is normally scheduled on Sundays to
          compete with the Christian Worship Services
          and for Klemp to fit-in with his fellow religious
          leaders in the Minneapolis community by having
          Sunday Worship Services. This seems or gives
          the appearance of being less cult like too.

          There are two different ways in which the EWS
          can be conducted. The one most Satsangs use
          is to have an ECK Cleric in charge and they select
          the topic from an "approved list." They give a
          sermon of sorts (share), but If new people show
          up the focus will usually change and the EWS
          will become an Intro. The other format will
          have the EK Cleric schedule an ECK member
          in good standing and with Arahata Training
          to give a 10-20 minute talk in front of the
          congregation. The seating will be different too,
          more theatre style versus circles.
          ***

          4. In the 2007-2008 time frame, I learned at the ___________ Eck center that I
          wasn't allowed to express a divergent opinion.

          ***
          [P]: Correct! Everyone has to be on the
          same page. If you aren't then you will
          be guided back to that page or the topic
          will be changed by using various Arahata
          techniques. Or, it will be suggested that
          you either go to the "Inner" for an answer
          or to write to Klemp. Sometimes an ESA
          session will be suggested. At times I would
          suggest that people to call me at home and
          we'd discuss it further.
          ***

          5. Harold Klemp dummying-down the principles of Eckankar (a very major reason).

          ***
          [P]: True! The EWS, the Intros, the EWWS
          and Major EK Seminars, the books, the
          videos, and everything is dumbed down
          and repeated over and over. The "stories"
          may vary, of course, but it's nothing new
          or any more relevant than what any other
          religion has to offer... except for the LEM
          and the Initiation game. ECK doesn't need
          theologians and religious scholars to decipher
          its scripture since they have a "Living" master
          to do this for them. Except, HK doesn't allow
          any discussion or differing perspectives
          because how can someone, even an 8th
          or 9th initiate, question the authority and
          consciousness of a 14th who is 10 times
          greater than GOD. Of course any discussion
          would be limited to the Mental Plane which
          is controlled by KAL (i.e. Devil, Satan) so
          why bother to explain it so that we could
          understand the distortions. Thus, the 4th
          Plane ECK scripture and books are under
          the control of KAL, as well, and yet ECKists
          live by these thoughts, words, and mental
          constructs. Even the positive is of a lower
          consciousness.

          And, dreams are mind (lower plane) driven
          too. However, ECKists don't seem to really
          think too far beyond their nose. They are
          good with imagining things, but that too is
          a limiting mental (4th Plane) process when
          one is restricted to remain inside the box
          of ECK Dogma (rules, laws, guidelines,
          opinions, etc.). Therefore, creation is limited
          via following dogma and rules and the words
          of another. However, where is the Spiritual
          Freedom as Soul? Klemp is supposed to be
          a Spiritual Guide, but has become a benevolent
          dictator-God to be worshipped. If HK was
          truly a "spiritual guide" ECKists would be
          encouraged versus discouraged to have
          open discussions on any topic so that EK's
          dogmatic issues could be resolved. Soul
          equals Soul is not practiced in Eckankar.
          It's just more cheap talk.
          ***

          6. Ego conflicts with other Eckists are a minor reason. Every organization is
          going to have people getting into ego conflicts with each other.
          6:25 AM

          ***
          [P]: True. However, one would expect H.I.s
          to be above and beyond the attachment to
          the lower self. Eckankar is supposed to be
          "special" and the "most advanced" spiritual
          path anywhere on this planet and beyond!
          H.I.s, supposedly, are more advanced (via
          initiation) than the 4th Plane God that ALL
          non-ECKists on the planet worships! H.I.s
          are Gods and a Law unto their egotistical
          and delusional self. This belief is what Klemp
          promotes in order to/while selling his wares.
          [end]
          ***
        • avonblue1212
          In my opinion eckankar is the Amway of the spiritual world.
          Message 4 of 22 , Sep 13, 2010
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            In my opinion eckankar is the Amway of the spiritual world.

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
            >
            > I'm asking all of the lurking ECKists,
            > here, to respond and vent their
            > frustrations with Klemp, Eckankar,
            > their RESA, etc.
            >
            > What is it that you don't like, but have
            > to keep to yourself?
            >
            > How's that local ECK Newsletter going?
            >
            > How are the Satsang classes doing?
            >
            > When's the last time Klemp wrote a
            > discourse? Oh well, he's got more
            > important things on his mind like
            > his next worthless redundant book.
            >
            > NOTE: Don't share your unhappiness
            > with this site I understand that. Instead,
            > share about what bugs you about your
            > RESA, about Eckankar, about Klemp or
            > the ECK Teachings in general etc.
            >
            > What would get you Black Listed, demoted,
            > or shunned by fellow ECKists if you chose
            > to speak you mind and not bite your tongue.
            > Share your true, repressed, feelings about
            > the direction ECKankar has taken over the
            > past 28 years.
            >
            > How's are those ECK Worship Services?
            > Do the topics seem limited and/or need
            > to be from an "pre-approved" list? How
            > are the turnouts for those HU Chants and
            > Open Houses? Low to zero I'll bet. Still,
            > Klemp needs to sell his materials...
            > because you will have good karma and
            > be noticed for that next initiation approval.
            >
            > Lurkers: Start another Yahoo account in
            > order to share anonymously. We want to
            > hear about the real Eckankar that EKists
            > aren't permitted to discuss openly or
            > even behind closed doors!
            >
            > BTW- Former ECKists and members of
            > ESA can, also, share what their complaints
            > were back when they/we were still
            > ECKists.
            >
            > One thing that I never liked is that
            > I could not criticize anything, or
            > anyone's behaviour when I saw
            > something wrong or out of place.
            > This was one reason as to why I
            > volunteered for leadership positions
            > and was promoted to high Satsang
            > positions. I could now change pictures
            > etc. in the ECK Center. Still, I had
            > to be very careful as to how I approached
            > some things and some people who
            > were not following the Guidelines,
            > as well as, those ECKists with behavioural/
            > psychological problems. This, at times,
            > was like walking upon eggshells.
            >
            > My first RESA was very rigid, analytical,
            > critical, intimidating, insensitive, controlling,
            > detail/business oriented, hot and cold,
            > suspicious and thought she could read
            > people's minds! She did have her good-
            > sides, but when she was focused upon
            > her ECK duties she became too serious
            > and put her guard up. This caused her
            > "good-side" to fluctuate off/on. What's
            > even funnier is that she was one of Klemp's
            > top RESAs and is probably still on a short
            > list for the 8th initiation. I admit that
            > I did learn a lot about the internal workings
            > of the ECKankar org from her even
            > though I had to take some abuse from
            > her from time-to-time. The key is to
            > keep smiling and act happy regardless!
            > This is a big part of playing HK's game.
            >
            > Anyway, It was a challenge to get on
            > her good-side and nobody wanted to
            > be on her bad-side. I saw that happen
            > every now and then and it wasn't pretty.
            > She had a hot/quick temper too!
            > IMO-Her main weaknesses were
            > in thinking too highly of herself (as
            > a RESA and a Guardian) and too highly
            > of her mental and "spiritual" abilities
            > and authority. Some of the people/EK
            > issues that she felt she had problems
            > with were actually very trivial in the large
            > scheme of things. There was, also, a
            > lot of micro-management and "looking
            > over the shoulder" taking place. She
            > definitely contributed to several H.I.s
            > pulling back and dropping out-of-sight.
            > She probably saw it as good riddance
            > or if you can't take the heat... Then again,
            > if the "quality" of belief or ability or
            > "consciousness" was ever an issue to
            > begin with, then, why have so many
            > duds/losers been promoted to the 5th,
            > 6th and 7th Initiations? That was another
            > question that couldn't really be asked.
            > Except, one typical answer is that,
            > "consciousness comes and goes daily
            > or moment to moment and even ECK
            > Masters can fall." However, that's also
            > why Klemp's words hold no real value
            > either. When he changes his on-stage
            > talks he could be coming from a KAL
            > state of consciousness. Thus, this lower
            > consciousness gets broadcast, recorded,
            > and transcribed into books. Or, what HK
            > doesn't change can be from a lower,
            > fluctuating, state of con as well.
            >
            > Still, I had to be careful and could not
            > criticize anything outside of my local
            > Satsang area. The nonsense and orders
            > coming from the ESC could Not be
            > questioned (although I would at times).
            > They wanted us to set up experimental
            > programs and trainings to see if these
            > could be used nation or worldwide.
            > Of course other select Satsang areas
            > were doing the same thing or had a
            > different assignment. It amounted to
            > a lot of "busy work" and some things
            > did eventually get implemented but
            > much was never accepted and was
            > discarded or filed away at the ESC.
            > Plus, it took forever to get a definitive
            > answer on anything, except membership
            > issues, from the ESC.
            >
            > The Early Vahana Projects were, also,
            > used to "shake the tree" in order to reveal
            > future EK leaders (worker bees). Today,
            > "projects" are still used for this purpose.
            > Unfortunately, the ongoing public promotion
            > of ECKankar, and of Klemp, has nothing
            > to do with real Spiritual growth and God-
            > Realization. That was why I joined ECKankar
            > in the first place! It Wasn't to bring in
            > money for Klemp's palaces!
            >
            > BTW- It really is too bad that we can't see
            > where ALL the ECKankar money goes... payroll,
            > retirement, houses, stocks and bonds, cars,
            > health insurance, real estate investments,
            > foreign bank accounts, etc. I'll bet the EK
            > Board doesn't get to see a detailed list either.
            >
            > Basically, these are the four main principles
            > that Klemp has ECKists follow:
            >
            > 1. the Inflow-outflow karma/growth principle;
            > 2. the Co-worker with God principle;
            > 3. the selling of ECKankar/Klemp principle;
            > 4. the Initiation carrot principle.
            >
            > These four HK/EK principles take precedence
            > over everything else. In fact, there is no other
            > focus.
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
          • etznab@aol.com
            Reply to thread. See post by Etznab in context to the following a.r.e. thread. http://tinyurl.com/2dpl4ol
            Message 5 of 22 , Sep 13, 2010
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              Reply to thread.

              See post by Etznab in context to the
              following a.r.e. thread.

              http://tinyurl.com/2dpl4ol

              http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.eckankar/browse_thread/thread/80cec5e262434d8b/4bd2b9a988c1bcbe?hl=en#4bd2b9a988c1bcbe

              -----Original Message-----
              From: avonblue1212 <gowiththeflow1212@...>
              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Mon, Sep 13, 2010 6:21 am
              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: All ECKists Should Respond To
              This In Order To Vent

               
              In my opinion eckankar is the Amway of the spiritual world.

              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
              <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
              >
              > I'm asking all of the lurking ECKists,
              > here, to respond and vent their
              > frustrations with Klemp, Eckankar,
              > their RESA, etc.
              >
              > What is it that you don't like, but have
              > to keep to yourself?
              >
              > How's that local ECK Newsletter going?
              >
              > How are the Satsang classes doing?
              >
              > When's the last time Klemp wrote a
              > discourse? Oh well, he's got more
              > important things on his mind like
              > his next worthless redundant book.
              >
              > NOTE: Don't share your unhappiness
              > with this site I understand that. Instead,
              > share about what bugs you about your
              > RESA, about Eckankar, about Klemp or
              > the ECK Teachings in general etc.
              >
              > What would get you Black Listed, demoted,
              > or shunned by fellow ECKists if you chose
              > to speak you mind and not bite your tongue.
              > Share your true, repressed, feelings about
              > the direction ECKankar has taken over the
              > past 28 years.
              >
              > How's are those ECK Worship Services?
              > Do the topics seem limited and/or need
              > to be from an "pre-approved" list? How
              > are the turnouts for those HU Chants and
              > Open Houses? Low to zero I'll bet. Still,
              > Klemp needs to sell his materials...
              > because you will have good karma and
              > be noticed for that next initiation approval.
              >
              > Lurkers: Start another Yahoo account in
              > order to share anonymously. We want to
              > hear about the real Eckankar that EKists
              > aren't permitted to discuss openly or
              > even behind closed doors!
              >
              > BTW- Former ECKists and members of
              > ESA can, also, share what their complaints
              > were back when they/we were still
              > ECKists.
              >
              > One thing that I never liked is that
              > I could not criticize anything, or
              > anyone's behaviour when I saw
              > something wrong or out of place.
              > This was one reason as to why I
              > volunteered for leadership positions
              > and was promoted to high Satsang
              > positions. I could now change pictures
              > etc. in the ECK Center. Still, I had
              > to be very careful as to how I approached
              > some things and some people who
              > were not following the Guidelines,
              > as well as, those ECKists with behavioural/
              > psychological problems. This, at times,
              > was like walking upon eggshells.
              >
              > My first RESA was very rigid, analytical,
              > critical, intimidating, insensitive, controlling,
              > detail/business oriented, hot and cold,
              > suspicious and thought she could read
              > people's minds! She did have her good-
              > sides, but when she was focused upon
              > her ECK duties she became too serious
              > and put her guard up. This caused her
              > "good-side" to fluctuate off/on. What's
              > even funnier is that she was one of Klemp's
              > top RESAs and is probably still on a short
              > list for the 8th initiation. I admit that
              > I did learn a lot about the internal workings
              > of the ECKankar org from her even
              > though I had to take some abuse from
              > her from time-to-time. The key is to
              > keep smiling and act happy regardless!
              > This is a big part of playing HK's game.
              >
              > Anyway, It was a challenge to get on
              > her good-side and nobody wanted to
              > be on her bad-side. I saw that happen
              > every now and then and it wasn't pretty.
              > She had a hot/quick temper too!
              > IMO-Her main weaknesses were
              > in thinking too highly of herself (as
              > a RESA and a Guardian) and too highly
              > of her mental and "spiritual" abilities
              > and authority. Some of the people/EK
              > issues that she felt she had problems
              > with were actually very trivial in the large
              > scheme of things. There was, also, a
              > lot of micro-management and "looking
              > over the shoulder" taking place. She
              > definitely contributed to several H.I.s
              > pulling back and dropping out-of-sight.
              > She probably saw it as good riddance
              > or if you can't take the heat... Then again,
              > if the "quality" of belief or ability or
              > "consciousness" was ever an issue to
              > begin with, then, why have so many
              > duds/losers been promoted to the 5th,
              > 6th and 7th Initiations? That was another
              > question that couldn't really be asked.
              > Except, one typical answer is that,
              > "consciousness comes and goes daily
              > or moment to moment and even ECK
              > Masters can fall." However, that's also
              > why Klemp's words hold no real value
              > either. When he changes his on-stage
              > talks he could be coming from a KAL
              > state of consciousness. Thus, this lower
              > consciousness gets broadcast, recorded,
              > and transcribed into books. Or, what HK
              > doesn't change can be from a lower,
              > fluctuating, state of con as well.
              >
              > Still, I had to be careful and could not
              > criticize anything outside of my local
              > Satsang area. The nonsense and orders
              > coming from the ESC could Not be
              > questioned (although I would at times).
              > They wanted us to set up experimental
              > programs and trainings to see if these
              > could be used nation or worldwide.
              > Of course other select Satsang areas
              > were doing the same thing or had a
              > different assignment. It amounted to
              > a lot of "busy work" and some things
              > did eventually get implemented but
              > much was never accepted and was
              > discarded or filed away at the ESC.
              > Plus, it took forever to get a definitive
              > answer on anything, except membership
              > issues, from the ESC.
              >
              > The Early Vahana Projects were, also,
              > used to "shake the tree" in order to reveal
              > future EK leaders (worker bees). Today,
              > "projects" are still used for this purpose.
              > Unfortunately, the ongoing public promotion
              > of ECKankar, and of Klemp, has nothing
              > to do with real Spiritual growth and God-
              > Realization. That was why I joined ECKankar
              > in the first place! It Wasn't to bring in
              > money for Klemp's palaces!
              >
              > BTW- It really is too bad that we can't see
              > where ALL the ECKankar money goes... payroll,
              > retirement, houses, stocks and bonds, cars,
              > health insurance, real estate investments,
              > foreign bank accounts, etc. I'll bet the EK
              > Board doesn't get to see a detailed list either.
              >
              > Basically, these are the four main principles
              > that Klemp has ECKists follow:
              >
              > 1. the Inflow-outflow karma/growth principle;
              > 2. the Co-worker with God principle;
              > 3. the selling of ECKankar/Klemp principle;
              > 4. the Initiation carrot principle.
              >
              > These four HK/EK principles take precedence
              > over everything else. In fact, there is no other
              > focus.
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
            • prometheus_973
              Hello Avonblue and All, I agree that Eckankar is the Amway of the spiritual world, although, Amway does have many products that actually work versus the
              Message 6 of 22 , Sep 13, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                Hello Avonblue and All,
                I agree that "Eckankar is the
                Amway of the spiritual world,"
                although, Amway does have
                many products that actually
                work versus the products Klemp
                sells!

                BTW- I was looking at Eckankar's
                June 2010 The Mystic World and
                saw that Klemp was promoting
                PT's false lineage dogma by using
                quotes from PT's "Stranger By
                The River," "The Riddle of God."
                Klemp likes to refer to Twit as
                Peddar Zaskq and to quote Rebazar.
                But I was wondering, once again
                as I did when I was an ECKist,
                Why does Rebazar speak using
                words like "thee' and "ye?" This
                "Torch Bearer" and former Mahanta
                who is over 500 years old and
                who can travel anywhere physically
                or otherwise and who PT claimed
                trained him apparently stepped in
                as the LEM (for Sudar/Kirpal) and
                handed Twitchell the Rod of ECK
                Power... still speaks using thee
                and ye?

                Hmmmmm? That's another thing.
                Does Rebazar only "travel" on the
                "inner planes" via his Soul Body
                or does he also "travel" and reappear
                in his Physical Body? If RT does "travel"
                and reassemble his atoms or whatever
                to get here and there then why doesn't
                he ever speak at Major EK Seminars?
                Why can't Klemp do these same things
                and, at least, slow down his own aging
                process? It's quite a fantasy isn't it?
                It sounds like another "Talons of Time"
                novel of PT's. I wonder if RT has any
                unknown "Spiderman" abilities too?

                There are so many questions that
                ECKists can't and won't ask, or even
                think about! Why? Because they don't
                want to know the truth. They're afraid
                of the answers. Realizing the Truth
                would mean that their comfortable
                little world would collapse and then
                what? What does one replace a religion
                with? Well, not with another religion...
                that's what we did in joining Eckankar.

                Plus, what happens with those wasted
                years and initiations and those EK
                friends? But, the Freedom from Religion
                is great! It's a new area of exploration
                and is well worth the trouble and
                change. It's the original path that
                Soul was always seeking... freedom
                from Dogma and of those being placed
                upon a pedestal over you (Soul).

                Basically, religions serve a purpose
                when we are young, immature, naive
                and are still growing and exploring
                our higher possibilities. But, all religions
                eventually need to be dropped away
                before they become obsessive and
                codependent traps. However, most
                people will always need a religion
                and to be led around by others. Those
                "followers" are not seeking or able
                to realize the true Self or else they
                would not place themselves on the
                lower rungs of "initiation" ladders.

                There aren't that many Souls who still
                believe in (Know) and experience "God"
                and the Holy Spirit, or whatever one wants
                to call this Divine Force/Intelligence, and
                Who Don't Belong to a Religion! These truly
                Free One's are unique!

                Prometheus


                avonblue gowiththeflow wrote:
                In my opinion eckankar is the Amway of the spiritual world.

                prometheus wrote:

                > I'm asking all of the lurking ECKists,
                > here, to respond and vent their
                > frustrations with Klemp, Eckankar,
                > their RESA, etc.
                >
                > What is it that you don't like, but have
                > to keep to yourself?
                >
                > How's that local ECK Newsletter going?
                >
                > How are the Satsang classes doing?
                >
                > When's the last time Klemp wrote a
                > discourse? Oh well, he's got more
                > important things on his mind like
                > his next worthless redundant book.
                >
                > NOTE: Don't share your unhappiness
                > with this site I understand that. Instead,
                > share about what bugs you about your
                > RESA, about Eckankar, about Klemp or
                > the ECK Teachings in general etc.
                >
                > What would get you Black Listed, demoted,
                > or shunned by fellow ECKists if you chose
                > to speak you mind and not bite your tongue.
                > Share your true, repressed, feelings about
                > the direction ECKankar has taken over the
                > past 28 years.
                >
                > How's are those ECK Worship Services?
                > Do the topics seem limited and/or need
                > to be from an "pre-approved" list? How
                > are the turnouts for those HU Chants and
                > Open Houses? Low to zero I'll bet. Still,
                > Klemp needs to sell his materials...
                > because you will have good karma and
                > be noticed for that next initiation approval.
                >
                > Lurkers: Start another Yahoo account in
                > order to share anonymously. We want to
                > hear about the real Eckankar that EKists
                > aren't permitted to discuss openly or
                > even behind closed doors!
                >
                > BTW- Former ECKists and members of
                > ESA can, also, share what their complaints
                > were back when they/we were still
                > ECKists.
                >
                > One thing that I never liked is that
                > I could not criticize anything, or
                > anyone's behaviour when I saw
                > something wrong or out of place.
                > This was one reason as to why I
                > volunteered for leadership positions
                > and was promoted to high Satsang
                > positions. I could now change pictures
                > etc. in the ECK Center. Still, I had
                > to be very careful as to how I approached
                > some things and some people who
                > were not following the Guidelines,
                > as well as, those ECKists with behavioural/
                > psychological problems. This, at times,
                > was like walking upon eggshells.
                >
                > My first RESA was very rigid, analytical,
                > critical, intimidating, insensitive, controlling,
                > detail/business oriented, hot and cold,
                > suspicious and thought she could read
                > people's minds! She did have her good-
                > sides, but when she was focused upon
                > her ECK duties she became too serious
                > and put her guard up. This caused her
                > "good-side" to fluctuate off/on. What's
                > even funnier is that she was one of Klemp's
                > top RESAs and is probably still on a short
                > list for the 8th initiation. I admit that
                > I did learn a lot about the internal workings
                > of the ECKankar org from her even
                > though I had to take some abuse from
                > her from time-to-time. The key is to
                > keep smiling and act happy regardless!
                > This is a big part of playing HK's game.
                >
                > Anyway, It was a challenge to get on
                > her good-side and nobody wanted to
                > be on her bad-side. I saw that happen
                > every now and then and it wasn't pretty.
                > She had a hot/quick temper too!
                > IMO-Her main weaknesses were
                > in thinking too highly of herself (as
                > a RESA and a Guardian) and too highly
                > of her mental and "spiritual" abilities
                > and authority. Some of the people/EK
                > issues that she felt she had problems
                > with were actually very trivial in the large
                > scheme of things. There was, also, a
                > lot of micro-management and "looking
                > over the shoulder" taking place. She
                > definitely contributed to several H.I.s
                > pulling back and dropping out-of-sight.
                > She probably saw it as good riddance
                > or if you can't take the heat... Then again,
                > if the "quality" of belief or ability or
                > "consciousness" was ever an issue to
                > begin with, then, why have so many
                > duds/losers been promoted to the 5th,
                > 6th and 7th Initiations? That was another
                > question that couldn't really be asked.
                > Except, one typical answer is that,
                > "consciousness comes and goes daily
                > or moment to moment and even ECK
                > Masters can fall." However, that's also
                > why Klemp's words hold no real value
                > either. When he changes his on-stage
                > talks he could be coming from a KAL
                > state of consciousness. Thus, this lower
                > consciousness gets broadcast, recorded,
                > and transcribed into books. Or, what HK
                > doesn't change can be from a lower,
                > fluctuating, state of con as well.
                >
                > Still, I had to be careful and could not
                > criticize anything outside of my local
                > Satsang area. The nonsense and orders
                > coming from the ESC could Not be
                > questioned (although I would at times).
                > They wanted us to set up experimental
                > programs and trainings to see if these
                > could be used nation or worldwide.
                > Of course other select Satsang areas
                > were doing the same thing or had a
                > different assignment. It amounted to
                > a lot of "busy work" and some things
                > did eventually get implemented but
                > much was never accepted and was
                > discarded or filed away at the ESC.
                > Plus, it took forever to get a definitive
                > answer on anything, except membership
                > issues, from the ESC.
                >
                > The Early Vahana Projects were, also,
                > used to "shake the tree" in order to reveal
                > future EK leaders (worker bees). Today,
                > "projects" are still used for this purpose.
                > Unfortunately, the ongoing public promotion
                > of ECKankar, and of Klemp, has nothing
                > to do with real Spiritual growth and God-
                > Realization. That was why I joined ECKankar
                > in the first place! It Wasn't to bring in
                > money for Klemp's palaces!
                >
                > BTW- It really is too bad that we can't see
                > where ALL the ECKankar money goes... payroll,
                > retirement, houses, stocks and bonds, cars,
                > health insurance, real estate investments,
                > foreign bank accounts, etc. I'll bet the EK
                > Board doesn't get to see a detailed list either.
                >
                > Basically, these are the four main principles
                > that Klemp has ECKists follow:
                >
                > 1. the Inflow-outflow karma/growth principle;
                > 2. the Co-worker with God principle;
                > 3. the selling of ECKankar/Klemp principle;
                > 4. the Initiation carrot principle.
                >
                > These four HK/EK principles take precedence
                > over everything else. In fact, there is no other
                > focus.
                >
                > Prometheus
              • jonathanjohns96
                Promethus and all, #2 A few more comments about Eckankar s curses. I d like to mention something for the benefit of those of you who haven t been able to
                Message 7 of 22 , Sep 13, 2010
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                  Promethus and all,

                  #2
                  A few more comments about Eckankar's curses.

                  I'd like to mention something for the benefit of those of you who haven't been able to followed all the past discussionss on this message board. I was over at a.r.e. (the Google Group alt.religion.eckankar) talking about something and one of the Eckists over there said that I was "regurgitating" (their words) Prometheus' old theory about..... I don't even remember exactly what the subject for discussion was, but it doesn't matter. I very adamantly pointed out to them, that, yes, I agree with a lot of what Prometheus says, but I had figured it all out long before I read about Prometheus discussing it on this message board. So I am not copying Prometheus and Prometheus has never copied me. We both are very independently-minded people and it just so happens that we came to many of the same conclusions about what was/is going on in Eckankar. I did not even read ET or ESA until Dec 17 (the day I quit Eckankar) or Dec 18 in 2008. It was around that time; please forgive my bad memory.

                  And when I started reading Ford Johnson's book (1-3 months before I left Eckankar?) I had the exact same experience. As I was reading his book I clearly remember when Ford was talking about Eckankar's curses. and I said to myself "Yes! Ford saw it too!" It made me feel better for two reasons. First of all, Ford is a very intelligent person. Secondly he was a 7th initiate and 29 year member of Eckankar so he obviously knew the teachings of Eckankar as well as anyone. And so I said to myself "If Ford saw it too, I'm obviously not hallucinating or imagining things." My recollection is that Ford said that he was late in seeing them. I believe he said he never noticed them in his first 20 years in Eckankar. I really think the reason I noticed them so early in Eckankar is because they struck fear in me at the time I read them.

                  So the curses in Eckankar seem to affect some people, but not others. Prometheus, I believe that you have said in the past that they didn't affect you, or that you even doubted their effectiveness. I think the truth is that they affect some people, but not others.

                  #3
                  Prometheus said about the Eckankar Worship Service:

                  "The EWS is normally scheduled on Sundays to
                  compete with the Christian Worship Services
                  and for Klemp to fit-in with his fellow religious
                  leaders in the Minneapolis community by having
                  Sunday Worship Services. This seems or gives
                  the appearance of being less cult like too."

                  JJ - I'm not sure Klemp is trying to compete with the Christian Worship Services, that's awfully optimistic of Eckankar, but I agree fully with the rest of your statement.

                  EWS - - > Eckankar looks more like Christianity
                  EWS - - > Eckankar looks less cult-like

                  But you jogged my memory of something that I had somehow completely forgotten about. Awhile ago (pre 1999?) I was looking at a Sunday newspaper at the ads for churches and their Sunday church services. In the newspaper, each church of many different Christian denominations had their own little ad. You may not believe what I just remembered. There was an ad for "Eckankar Church." And it was mixed right in with all of the Christian worship services! I was gobsmacked. I said to myself "How the heck did that get in there!?" In other words, I thought surely that the editor of the newspaper had made a mistake.

                  But as I look back on it now, I realize what really happened. Some Eckist had snuck that in there while attempting to pass Eckankar off as "being like Christianity." And this was in a very conservative part of the United States. I bet the editor(s) at the newspaper just about went through the roof when they found out the truth about the "Eckankar Church." That it wasn't a Christian Church.

                  Oh well. It just proves how far members of Eckankar will go to try to hoodwink the public. I'm very glad I remembered this. I remember it very clearly though. When I saw the words "Eckankar Church" I was just about screaming at the newspaper "How can you call Eckankar a church?" It was if I was insulted. After all, how could someone compare a mere church to Eckankar? (my programming as an Eckist).

                  I was so naive back then. This was before I had started to notice the Christianization of Eckankar. The Chistianization was there, but I just wasn't seeing it for what it was.

                  #6
                  Prometheus wrote:

                  "H.I.s, supposedly, are more advanced (via
                  initiation) than the 4th Plane God that ALL
                  non-ECKists on the planet worships!"

                  Right again, Prometheus. And you mentioned something very important that I didn't think of in my previous comments on this topic. And it is VERY applicable to me. That is, I had extremely high expectations of these people. After all, wasn't I being taught that Eckankar is the highest religion of them all? And that all other religions in the World have sprung out of Eckankar? My gosh! Then these people in Eckankar who were the "higher initiates" should be super amazing, super great, and super awesome! So yes, my expectations were very very high.

                  And then when these people didn't just fall below my expectations, but fell WAY below, it was hard on me. And I seriously started to wonder "Are these people really as high as they are supposed to be? As high I as I think they are?" So it did affect me. I think that, consistent with my personality of being disappointed with others, I just withdrew from the whole thing and lived in my own world of Twitchell's books. I'll admit that I did enjoy Klemp's tapes too (I guess I shouldn't admit that here). But most of his books were boring, and were in many cases just "reprints" of the exact same stories in his tapes.

                  So, Prometheus, I actually admire you for being actively involved in Eckankar because I couldn't handle it. So your experiences led to a very different experience with Eckankar. I always have been a loner, and after having only a few bad interactions with members of Eckankar, I withdrew into my own world which also means that I pretty much stopped going to Eckankar meetings. This all happened very early in my interaction with Eckankar: probably mid 1980s (I joined in 1979).

                  Toward the end of my time in Eckankar, I started attending a lot more EWSs. I think I was in a situation where I wanted to give Eckankar a chance to prove itself to me. I was getting very cynical about the whole thing by now. But the more I went to ESWs, and the more I interacted with Eckists, the more I got a really bad impression of them. I mean, they all had their good qualities too. But what bothered me was the blind dedication that these people had toward Eckankar, and how they would defend Eckankar no matter what. It was very disturbing to me.

                  And so I finally did decide that there just too many negatives.
                • jonathanjohns96
                  Promethues wrote: But I was wondering, once again as I did when I was an ECKist, Why does Rebazar speak using words like thee and ye? This Torch Bearer
                  Message 8 of 22 , Sep 13, 2010
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                    Promethues wrote:

                    "But I was wondering, once again
                    as I did when I was an ECKist,
                    Why does Rebazar speak using
                    words like "thee' and "ye?" This
                    "Torch Bearer" and former Mahanta
                    who is over 500 years old and
                    who can travel anywhere physically
                    or otherwise and who PT claimed
                    trained him apparently stepped in
                    as the LEM (for Sudar/Kirpal) and
                    handed Twitchell the Rod of ECK
                    Power... still speaks using thee
                    and ye?"

                    JJ - After I stopped laughing at your funny comment, I started thinking. "Isn't this ye and thee stuff actually Old English? And the reason that it sounds Holy in a traditional Christian sort of way is because some of the old versions of the Bible were written in Old English?

                    And so I turned to that "bastion of truth." That "torchbearer of all things correct." Not Eckankar, but, Wikipedia:

                    Wikipedia - Thou
                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou
                    "Most modern English speakers encounter "thou" only in the works of Shakespeare, in the works of other medieval and early modern writers, and in the King James Bible.

                    So after realizing that in this case it looks like I was correct, I wondered about a few things:

                    1. Rebazar is 500 years old. How old is Old English?
                    2. Regardless of the answer to #1, how and why did Rebazar learn to speak Old English?

                    Wikipedia - Old English
                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_english
                    "Old English (Englisc, Anglisc, Ænglisc) or Anglo-Saxon[1] is an early form of the English language that was spoken and written by the Anglo-Saxons and their descendants in parts of what are now England and south-eastern Scotland between at least the mid-5th century and the mid-12th century."

                    Wikipedia - 5th Century
                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_century
                    "The 5th century is the period from 401 to 500 in accordance with the Julian calendar in Anno Domini/Common Era."

                    Wikipedia - 12th Century
                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_century
                    "As a means of recording the passage of time, the 12th century is the period from 1101 to 1200 in accordance with the Julian calendar in the Christian/Common Era."

                    Rebazar's birth year
                    1965-500=1465

                    If Rebazar was 35 years old in 1500, that means he was speaking Old English about 350 years after it had died out in England and Scotland.

                    Ok, I admit it it. I have no idea what any of this proves...

                    - - - - - - - - - - -

                    UPDATE: Maybe I do know what it proves. Maybe Twitchell knew that most Americans, being of a Christian background, would associate Old English with the Bible. In other words, with Holy writings or spiritual truth.

                    I knew that Twitchell stole some verses from the Bible, but I never thought about this before. The fact that Twitchell may have had Rebazar use the words thee and ye in order to create a spiritual-like persona for Rebazar.

                    I'm wondering whether Ford Johnson mentioned this. He must have.

                    Search results of "Confessions"

                    "old english" - no occurrences
                    "king james" - one occurrence (p 117) but not related to a discussion of Twitchell's use of thee and ye.
                    "thee" - numerous, but Ford actually uses the word 'thee' in some of his HCS affirmations.

                    But Ford is allowed to use thee since he was raised in the United States. Plus, I think that if Ford was questioned, he would acknowledge that he probably got the word "thee" from reading the King James version of the Bible. I don't think Twitchell would acknowledge that Rebazar got the word "thee" from reading the King James version of the Bible, or from somehow being exposed to Old English which was spoken from 450 to 1150.

                    Questions for further study.
                    1. Did all the Eck masters use thee and ye? Or just Rebazar?
                    2. Did these Eck masters speak that way just because they knew Twitchell would feel comfortable with it?
                    3. Did any of Paul's actual gurus such as Kirpal Singh or Premananda use thee and ye in their speech?
                  • jonathanjohns96
                    All, I know that some member of Eckankar is going to say Maybe Rebazar was reading the KIng James version of the Bible. My answer to that is that Eckankar
                    Message 9 of 22 , Sep 13, 2010
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                      All,

                      I know that some member of Eckankar is going to say "Maybe Rebazar was reading the KIng James version of the Bible."

                      My answer to that is that Eckankar teaches that all religions came from Ecknakar. That means that Christianity came from Eckankar. So why would Rebazar have been reading the Bible?"

                      Oh, OK. Now I get it! How could I have been so stupid! Rebazar Tarz was the person who originated Old English!

                      Jonathan


                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96" <jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Promethues wrote:
                      >
                      > "But I was wondering, once again
                      > as I did when I was an ECKist,
                      > Why does Rebazar speak using
                      > words like "thee' and "ye?" This
                      > "Torch Bearer" and former Mahanta
                      > who is over 500 years old and
                      > who can travel anywhere physically
                      > or otherwise and who PT claimed
                      > trained him apparently stepped in
                      > as the LEM (for Sudar/Kirpal) and
                      > handed Twitchell the Rod of ECK
                      > Power... still speaks using thee
                      > and ye?"
                      >
                      > JJ - After I stopped laughing at your funny comment, I started thinking. "Isn't this ye and thee stuff actually Old English? And the reason that it sounds Holy in a traditional Christian sort of way is because some of the old versions of the Bible were written in Old English?
                      >
                      > And so I turned to that "bastion of truth." That "torchbearer of all things correct." Not Eckankar, but, Wikipedia:
                      >
                      > Wikipedia - Thou
                      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou
                      > "Most modern English speakers encounter "thou" only in the works of Shakespeare, in the works of other medieval and early modern writers, and in the King James Bible.
                      >
                      > So after realizing that in this case it looks like I was correct, I wondered about a few things:
                      >
                      > 1. Rebazar is 500 years old. How old is Old English?
                      > 2. Regardless of the answer to #1, how and why did Rebazar learn to speak Old English?
                      >
                      > Wikipedia - Old English
                      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_english
                      > "Old English (Englisc, Anglisc, Ænglisc) or Anglo-Saxon[1] is an early form of the English language that was spoken and written by the Anglo-Saxons and their descendants in parts of what are now England and south-eastern Scotland between at least the mid-5th century and the mid-12th century."
                      >
                      > Wikipedia - 5th Century
                      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_century
                      > "The 5th century is the period from 401 to 500 in accordance with the Julian calendar in Anno Domini/Common Era."
                      >
                      > Wikipedia - 12th Century
                      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_century
                      > "As a means of recording the passage of time, the 12th century is the period from 1101 to 1200 in accordance with the Julian calendar in the Christian/Common Era."
                      >
                      > Rebazar's birth year
                      > 1965-500=1465
                      >
                      > If Rebazar was 35 years old in 1500, that means he was speaking Old English about 350 years after it had died out in England and Scotland.
                      >
                      > Ok, I admit it it. I have no idea what any of this proves...
                      >
                      > - - - - - - - - - - -
                      >
                      > UPDATE: Maybe I do know what it proves. Maybe Twitchell knew that most Americans, being of a Christian background, would associate Old English with the Bible. In other words, with Holy writings or spiritual truth.
                      >
                      > I knew that Twitchell stole some verses from the Bible, but I never thought about this before. The fact that Twitchell may have had Rebazar use the words thee and ye in order to create a spiritual-like persona for Rebazar.
                      >
                      > I'm wondering whether Ford Johnson mentioned this. He must have.
                      >
                      > Search results of "Confessions"
                      >
                      > "old english" - no occurrences
                      > "king james" - one occurrence (p 117) but not related to a discussion of Twitchell's use of thee and ye.
                      > "thee" - numerous, but Ford actually uses the word 'thee' in some of his HCS affirmations.
                      >
                      > But Ford is allowed to use thee since he was raised in the United States. Plus, I think that if Ford was questioned, he would acknowledge that he probably got the word "thee" from reading the King James version of the Bible. I don't think Twitchell would acknowledge that Rebazar got the word "thee" from reading the King James version of the Bible, or from somehow being exposed to Old English which was spoken from 450 to 1150.
                      >
                      > Questions for further study.
                      > 1. Did all the Eck masters use thee and ye? Or just Rebazar?
                      > 2. Did these Eck masters speak that way just because they knew Twitchell would feel comfortable with it?
                      > 3. Did any of Paul's actual gurus such as Kirpal Singh or Premananda use thee and ye in their speech?
                      >
                    • Drew van Rijk
                      Since Rebazar does not exist now, nor did in the past, verily I say unto you he was not reading the bible or creating old english...  LOL ... From:
                      Message 10 of 22 , Sep 14, 2010
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                        Since Rebazar does not exist now, nor did in the past, verily I say unto you he was not reading the bible or creating old english...  LOL

                        --- On Tue, 9/14/10, jonathanjohns96 <jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:

                        From: jonathanjohns96 <jonathanjohns96@...>
                        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Thee and ye. What is that?
                        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                        Received: Tuesday, September 14, 2010, 1:39 AM

                         

                        All,

                        I know that some member of Eckankar is going to say "Maybe Rebazar was reading the KIng James version of the Bible."

                        My answer to that is that Eckankar teaches that all religions came from Ecknakar. That means that Christianity came from Eckankar. So why would Rebazar have been reading the Bible?"

                        Oh, OK. Now I get it! How could I have been so stupid! Rebazar Tarz was the person who originated Old English!

                        Jonathan

                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96" <jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Promethues wrote:
                        >
                        > "But I was wondering, once again
                        > as I did when I was an ECKist,
                        > Why does Rebazar speak using
                        > words like "thee' and "ye?" This
                        > "Torch Bearer" and former Mahanta
                        > who is over 500 years old and
                        > who can travel anywhere physically
                        > or otherwise and who PT claimed
                        > trained him apparently stepped in
                        > as the LEM (for Sudar/Kirpal) and
                        > handed Twitchell the Rod of ECK
                        > Power... still speaks using thee
                        > and ye?"
                        >
                        > JJ - After I stopped laughing at your funny comment, I started thinking. "Isn't this ye and thee stuff actually Old English? And the reason that it sounds Holy in a traditional Christian sort of way is because some of the old versions of the Bible were written in Old English?
                        >
                        > And so I turned to that "bastion of truth." That "torchbearer of all things correct." Not Eckankar, but, Wikipedia:
                        >
                        > Wikipedia - Thou
                        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou
                        > "Most modern English speakers encounter "thou" only in the works of Shakespeare, in the works of other medieval and early modern writers, and in the King James Bible.
                        >
                        > So after realizing that in this case it looks like I was correct, I wondered about a few things:
                        >
                        > 1. Rebazar is 500 years old. How old is Old English?
                        > 2. Regardless of the answer to #1, how and why did Rebazar learn to speak Old English?
                        >
                        > Wikipedia - Old English
                        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_english
                        > "Old English (Englisc, Anglisc, Ænglisc) or Anglo-Saxon[1] is an early form of the English language that was spoken and written by the Anglo-Saxons and their descendants in parts of what are now England and south-eastern Scotland between at least the mid-5th century and the mid-12th century."
                        >
                        > Wikipedia - 5th Century
                        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_century
                        > "The 5th century is the period from 401 to 500 in accordance with the Julian calendar in Anno Domini/Common Era."
                        >
                        > Wikipedia - 12th Century
                        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_century
                        > "As a means of recording the passage of time, the 12th century is the period from 1101 to 1200 in accordance with the Julian calendar in the Christian/Common Era."
                        >
                        > Rebazar's birth year
                        > 1965-500=1465
                        >
                        > If Rebazar was 35 years old in 1500, that means he was speaking Old English about 350 years after it had died out in England and Scotland.
                        >
                        > Ok, I admit it it. I have no idea what any of this proves...
                        >
                        > - - - - - - - - - - -
                        >
                        > UPDATE: Maybe I do know what it proves. Maybe Twitchell knew that most Americans, being of a Christian background, would associate Old English with the Bible. In other words, with Holy writings or spiritual truth.
                        >
                        > I knew that Twitchell stole some verses from the Bible, but I never thought about this before. The fact that Twitchell may have had Rebazar use the words thee and ye in order to create a spiritual-like persona for Rebazar.
                        >
                        > I'm wondering whether Ford Johnson mentioned this. He must have.
                        >
                        > Search results of "Confessions"
                        >
                        > "old english" - no occurrences
                        > "king james" - one occurrence (p 117) but not related to a discussion of Twitchell's use of thee and ye.
                        > "thee" - numerous, but Ford actually uses the word 'thee' in some of his HCS affirmations.
                        >
                        > But Ford is allowed to use thee since he was raised in the United States. Plus, I think that if Ford was questioned, he would acknowledge that he probably got the word "thee" from reading the King James version of the Bible. I don't think Twitchell would acknowledge that Rebazar got the word "thee" from reading the King James version of the Bible, or from somehow being exposed to Old English which was spoken from 450 to 1150.
                        >
                        > Questions for further study.
                        > 1. Did all the Eck masters use thee and ye? Or just Rebazar?
                        > 2. Did these Eck masters speak that way just because they knew Twitchell would feel comfortable with it?
                        > 3. Did any of Paul's actual gurus such as Kirpal Singh or Premananda use thee and ye in their speech?
                        >


                      • prometheus_973
                        Hello Jonathan and All, Thanks for the responses. I d like to make some additional comments below. [P] jonathanjohns wrote: Promethus and all, #2 A few more
                        Message 11 of 22 , Sep 14, 2010
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                          Hello Jonathan and All,
                          Thanks for the responses. I'd like to
                          make some additional comments
                          below. [P]

                          jonathanjohns wrote:

                          Promethus and all,

                          #2
                          A few more comments about Eckankar's curses.

                          I'd like to mention something for the benefit of those of you who haven't been
                          able to followed all the past discussionss on this message board. I was over at
                          a.r.e. (the Google Group alt.religion.eckankar) talking about something and one
                          of the Eckists over there said that I was "regurgitating" (their words)
                          Prometheus' old theory about..... I don't even remember exactly what the subject
                          for discussion was, but it doesn't matter. I very adamantly pointed out to them,
                          that, yes, I agree with a lot of what Prometheus says, but I had figured it all
                          out long before I read about Prometheus discussing it on this message board. So
                          I am not copying Prometheus and Prometheus has never copied me. We both are very
                          independently-minded people and it just so happens that we came to many of the
                          same conclusions about what was/is going on in Eckankar. I did not even read ET
                          or ESA until Dec 17 (the day I quit Eckankar) or Dec 18 in 2008. It was around
                          that time; please forgive my bad memory.



                          ***
                          [P] In past articles I've used the term
                          "regurgitate" when describing what
                          Klemp does when he gives his talks
                          and writes his books. I'm thinking
                          the A.R.E. ECKies are "regurgitating"
                          the words I've used about their "precious"
                          Mahanta.

                          Plus, most people will have the same
                          thoughts, reach the same conclusions
                          and use some of the same words and
                          expressions to communicate their ideas.
                          However, if you ever listen to an ECKist
                          they will sound like an EK Brochure.
                          Only the ECKists that are Unauthorized
                          to speak for Eckankar and go against
                          Klemp's Guidelines and who second
                          guess their Mahanta via Internet sites
                          will speak outside of the required EK
                          speak.
                          ***



                          And when I started reading Ford Johnson's book (1-3 months before I left
                          Eckankar?) I had the exact same experience. As I was reading his book I clearly
                          remember when Ford was talking about Eckankar's curses. and I said to myself
                          "Yes! Ford saw it too!" It made me feel better for two reasons. First of all,
                          Ford is a very intelligent person. Secondly he was a 7th initiate and 29 year
                          member of Eckankar so he obviously knew the teachings of Eckankar as well as
                          anyone. And so I said to myself "If Ford saw it too, I'm obviously not
                          hallucinating or imagining things." My recollection is that Ford said that he
                          was late in seeing them. I believe he said he never noticed them in his first 20
                          years in Eckankar. I really think the reason I noticed them so early in Eckankar
                          is because they struck fear in me at the time I read them.

                          So the curses in Eckankar seem to affect some people, but not others.
                          Prometheus, I believe that you have said in the past that they didn't affect
                          you, or that you even doubted their effectiveness. I think the truth is that
                          they affect some people, but not others.


                          ***
                          [P] Yes, Ford would have 36 years (or so)
                          in Eckankar, today, if he had stayed. As
                          for the curses... ECKists think that those
                          don't apply to them because they're not
                          going to be leaving... this was the one true
                          "path" that they had been looking for all
                          along. Thus, the curses didn't bother them.
                          We didn't think about the curses being used
                          as a threat or as a scare tactic or as a lower
                          plane power tripping tool. It didn't apply
                          to us so why worry about it... right? Yet,
                          it was exactly like the same crap (threats)
                          that had hung over our heads from our
                          previous religions which we rejected for
                          similar manipulations.
                          ***



                          #3
                          Prometheus said about the Eckankar Worship Service:

                          "The EWS is normally scheduled on Sundays to
                          compete with the Christian Worship Services
                          and for Klemp to fit-in with his fellow religious
                          leaders in the Minneapolis community by having
                          Sunday Worship Services. This seems or gives
                          the appearance of being less cult like too."

                          JJ - I'm not sure Klemp is trying to compete with the Christian Worship
                          Services, that's awfully optimistic of Eckankar, but I agree fully with the rest
                          of your statement.



                          ***
                          [P] Many people go "church" hunting
                          on Sundays. I've done it prior to finding
                          Eckankar. And, that's how Glenn Beck
                          and his family found LDS.
                          ***



                          EWS - - > Eckankar looks more like Christianity
                          EWS - - > Eckankar looks less cult-like

                          But you jogged my memory of something that I had somehow completely forgotten
                          about. Awhile ago (pre 1999?) I was looking at a Sunday newspaper at the ads for
                          churches and their Sunday church services. In the newspaper, each church of many
                          different Christian denominations had their own little ad. You may not believe
                          what I just remembered. There was an ad for "Eckankar Church." And it was mixed
                          right in with all of the Christian worship services! I was gobsmacked. I said to
                          myself "How the heck did that get in there!?" In other words, I thought surely
                          that the editor of the newspaper had made a mistake.




                          ***
                          [P] Our local area, too, (within the state
                          Satsang area) would place ads in the paper
                          to publicize our Sunday ECK Worship Service
                          and the ad would be listed with the other
                          churches... that was the whole point. My
                          wife and I were the ones who first did this
                          type of specific ad. I probably shared this
                          info (our success with getting it in) with
                          the RESA so that other areas could do so
                          as well. This was probably around 1990-
                          91. It was really funny how I'd have successes
                          with getting Eckankar into areas where
                          others had difficulty. I had moved to a
                          new state and the local EK area I was in
                          wasn't permitted in Libraries (so they said).
                          By the time I was done we were doing
                          Intros and having Roundtables in three
                          local libraries. The Local Director amazed.
                          ***


                          But as I look back on it now, I realize what really happened. Some Eckist had
                          snuck that in there while attempting to pass Eckankar off as "being like
                          Christianity." And this was in a very conservative part of the United States. I
                          bet the editor(s) at the newspaper just about went through the roof when they
                          found out the truth about the "Eckankar Church." That it wasn't a Christian
                          Church.

                          Oh well. It just proves how far members of Eckankar will go to try to hoodwink
                          the public. I'm very glad I remembered this. I remember it very clearly though.
                          When I saw the words "Eckankar Church" I was just about screaming at the
                          newspaper "How can you call Eckankar a church?" It was if I was insulted. After
                          all, how could someone compare a mere church to Eckankar? (my programming as an
                          Eckist).




                          ***
                          [P] True. We'd pass ourselves off as an
                          alternative religion that recognized the
                          validity of all other religions. Of course
                          that wasn't really true but it sounded
                          good at the time and in the moment.
                          The real truth of the matter is that all
                          other religions are seen by Eckankar
                          as KAL (Satan, Devil) based and as 2nd
                          or 4th Plane. It always made me wonder
                          why PT and Klemp skipped the 3rd (Causal)
                          Plane.
                          ***




                          I was so naive back then. This was before I had started to notice the
                          Christianization of Eckankar. The Chistianization was there, but I just wasn't
                          seeing it for what it was.

                          #6
                          Prometheus wrote:

                          "H.I.s, supposedly, are more advanced (via
                          initiation) than the 4th Plane God that ALL
                          non-ECKists on the planet worships!"

                          Right again, Prometheus. And you mentioned something very important that I
                          didn't think of in my previous comments on this topic. And it is VERY applicable
                          to me. That is, I had extremely high expectations of these people. After all,
                          wasn't I being taught that Eckankar is the highest religion of them all? And
                          that all other religions in the World have sprung out of Eckankar? My gosh! Then
                          these people in Eckankar who were the "higher initiates" should be super
                          amazing, super great, and super awesome! So yes, my expectations were very very
                          high.

                          And then when these people didn't just fall below my expectations, but fell WAY
                          below, it was hard on me. And I seriously started to wonder "Are these people
                          really as high as they are supposed to be? As high I as I think they are?" So it
                          did affect me. I think that, consistent with my personality of being
                          disappointed with others, I just withdrew from the whole thing and lived in my
                          own world of Twitchell's books. I'll admit that I did enjoy Klemp's tapes too (I
                          guess I shouldn't admit that here). But most of his books were boring, and were
                          in many cases just "reprints" of the exact same stories in his tapes.




                          ***
                          [P] I too had H.I.s upon pedestals. One
                          was an early mentor. Later, after I left,
                          I shared Ford's "Confessions" with this
                          person and they too left EK. I still had
                          them upon a pedestal, but later that too
                          ended. At one time I had Ford upon a
                          pedestal for awhile. Really, these people
                          are as flawed as the rest of us. Klemp
                          is no different and, as I discovered, HK's
                          one of the most flawed and screwed up
                          people that I've ever met... he just doesn't
                          reveal it as much if you're not looking
                          or are brainwashed. Besides, he's always
                          "on stage" and acting out a role. At the
                          Eden Prairie Mall etc. he's under scrutiny
                          by lurking ECKists but he knows this and
                          is, thus, on his best behaviour with the
                          public and with Joan.
                          ***



                          So, Prometheus, I actually admire you for being actively involved in Eckankar
                          because I couldn't handle it. So your experiences led to a very different
                          experience with Eckankar. I always have been a loner, and after having only a
                          few bad interactions with members of Eckankar, I withdrew into my own world
                          which also means that I pretty much stopped going to Eckankar meetings. This all
                          happened very early in my interaction with Eckankar: probably mid 1980s (I
                          joined in 1979).




                          ***
                          [P] BTW- Don't admire me for this:
                          I'd always try to bring the "loners"
                          into the fold (when they dropped in)
                          by welcoming them at the EWS and
                          chat with them after the service. I
                          would instruct others to do so, as well,
                          instead of chatting with their EK friends.
                          I'd invite them to go to lunch with us,
                          too, and try to talk them and others
                          into doing some volunteer work of
                          their choosing and let them know where
                          we needed help. And, I'd give them
                          a volunteer position "title" and place
                          them under another co-ordinator.
                          Our small center had about 30 EKists
                          with volunteer positions.
                          ***


                          Toward the end of my time in Eckankar, I started attending a lot more EWSs. I
                          think I was in a situation where I wanted to give Eckankar a chance to prove
                          itself to me. I was getting very cynical about the whole thing by now. But the
                          more I went to ESWs, and the more I interacted with Eckists, the more I got a
                          really bad impression of them. I mean, they all had their good qualities too.
                          But what bothered me was the blind dedication that these people had toward
                          Eckankar, and how they would defend Eckankar no matter what. It was very
                          disturbing to me.

                          And so I finally did decide that there just too many negatives.



                          ***
                          [P] I'd always sympathize and/or
                          empathize with ECKists having
                          problems with the dogma, or with
                          H.I.s, and try to get them back "on
                          track." Sometimes I wasn't able to
                          and just said to them, "Let go and
                          let God and do what feels right for
                          you." That suggestion would catch
                          them off-guard. They couldn't believe
                          that I wasn't saying more B.S. to
                          promote Eckankar or to alleviate
                          their concerns. But, If it doesn't
                          feel right then there's a reason
                          for that... sometimes it's called
                          intuition... which is Soul speaking
                          to self. It just takes some of us
                          longer to listen or understand
                          what Soul (we) are saying to self
                          (mind).
                          ***
                        • prometheus_973
                          Hello Jonathan and All, You ve made some good points. It does seem odd that a 500 year old Tibetan Lama (Rebazar) would speak Old English. It s probably
                          Message 12 of 22 , Sep 14, 2010
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                            Hello Jonathan and All,
                            You've made some good points.
                            It does seem odd that a 500
                            year old Tibetan Lama (Rebazar)
                            would speak Old English. It's
                            probably because Twitchell
                            used the King James version
                            of the Bible for references.
                            I always thought it was odd
                            that Klemp, too, uses the
                            more inaccurate King James
                            version when giving Bible quotes.

                            Prometheus

                            jonathanjohns wrote:
                            romethues wrote:

                            "But I was wondering, once again
                            as I did when I was an ECKist,
                            Why does Rebazar speak using
                            words like "thee' and "ye?" This
                            "Torch Bearer" and former Mahanta
                            who is over 500 years old and
                            who can travel anywhere physically
                            or otherwise and who PT claimed
                            trained him apparently stepped in
                            as the LEM (for Sudar/Kirpal) and
                            handed Twitchell the Rod of ECK
                            Power... still speaks using thee
                            and ye?"

                            JJ - After I stopped laughing at your funny comment, I started thinking. "Isn't
                            this ye and thee stuff actually Old English? And the reason that it sounds Holy
                            in a traditional Christian sort of way is because some of the old versions of
                            the Bible were written in Old English?

                            And so I turned to that "bastion of truth." That "torchbearer of all things
                            correct." Not Eckankar, but, Wikipedia:

                            Wikipedia - Thou
                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou
                            "Most modern English speakers encounter "thou" only in the works of Shakespeare,
                            in the works of other medieval and early modern writers, and in the King James
                            Bible.

                            So after realizing that in this case it looks like I was correct, I wondered
                            about a few things:

                            1. Rebazar is 500 years old. How old is Old English?
                            2. Regardless of the answer to #1, how and why did Rebazar learn to speak Old
                            English?

                            Wikipedia - Old English
                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_english
                            "Old English (Englisc, Anglisc, Ænglisc) or Anglo-Saxon[1] is an early form of
                            the English language that was spoken and written by the Anglo-Saxons and their
                            descendants in parts of what are now England and south-eastern Scotland between
                            at least the mid-5th century and the mid-12th century."

                            Wikipedia - 5th Century
                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_century
                            "The 5th century is the period from 401 to 500 in accordance with the Julian
                            calendar in Anno Domini/Common Era."

                            Wikipedia - 12th Century
                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_century
                            "As a means of recording the passage of time, the 12th century is the period
                            from 1101 to 1200 in accordance with the Julian calendar in the Christian/Common
                            Era."

                            Rebazar's birth year
                            1965-500=1465

                            If Rebazar was 35 years old in 1500, that means he was speaking Old English
                            about 350 years after it had died out in England and Scotland.

                            Ok, I admit it it. I have no idea what any of this proves...

                            - - - - - - - - - - -

                            UPDATE: Maybe I do know what it proves. Maybe Twitchell knew that most
                            Americans, being of a Christian background, would associate Old English with the
                            Bible. In other words, with Holy writings or spiritual truth.

                            I knew that Twitchell stole some verses from the Bible, but I never thought
                            about this before. The fact that Twitchell may have had Rebazar use the words
                            thee and ye in order to create a spiritual-like persona for Rebazar.

                            I'm wondering whether Ford Johnson mentioned this. He must have.

                            Search results of "Confessions"

                            "old english" - no occurrences
                            "king james" - one occurrence (p 117) but not related to a discussion of
                            Twitchell's use of thee and ye.
                            "thee" - numerous, but Ford actually uses the word 'thee' in some of his HCS
                            affirmations.

                            But Ford is allowed to use thee since he was raised in the United States. Plus,
                            I think that if Ford was questioned, he would acknowledge that he probably got
                            the word "thee" from reading the King James version of the Bible. I don't think
                            Twitchell would acknowledge that Rebazar got the word "thee" from reading the
                            King James version of the Bible, or from somehow being exposed to Old English
                            which was spoken from 450 to 1150.

                            Questions for further study.
                            1. Did all the Eck masters use thee and ye? Or just Rebazar?
                            2. Did these Eck masters speak that way just because they knew Twitchell would
                            feel comfortable with it?
                            3. Did any of Paul's actual gurus such as Kirpal Singh or Premananda use thee
                            and ye in their speech?
                          • prometheus_973
                            Hello Drew and All, Thanks for the perspective. Of course Rebazar is fictitious, but Twitch needed someone living (a LEM fill-in, supposedly) to initiate him
                            Message 13 of 22 , Sep 14, 2010
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                              Hello Drew and All,
                              Thanks for the perspective.
                              Of course Rebazar is fictitious,
                              but Twitch needed someone
                              "living" (a LEM fill-in, supposedly)
                              to initiate him as LEM since
                              he killed off Sudar/Kirpal.

                              This EK Master lineage thing
                              is somewhat of a Catch-22
                              isn't it? On one hand these
                              characters have been living,
                              supposedly, 500-60,000 years
                              in the same physical body.
                              However, where are they?
                              They live in PHYSICAL BODIES,
                              or so Eckankar claims, and
                              are nowhere to be found.
                              The Physical is not an invisible
                              Plane, but these "Masters"
                              are invisible... and yet work
                              under Klemp (the mahanta).
                              So, why doesn't Klemp have
                              them give talks at EK Seminars
                              ... ever!

                              On the other hand one has
                              to be "special" in order to
                              see and talk with these undead
                              ECK Masters. But, then again,
                              these ECKists claiming to have
                              had visitations with RT, et al,
                              in their dreams, etc., still need
                              approval from Klemp in order
                              to share these "stories."

                              Otherwise, without approval,
                              from Klemp these claims are
                              unsubstantiated and invalid
                              since these "EK Masters" might
                              just be the KAL playing tricks
                              on chelas and H.I.s. One is
                              supposed to "HU" in order to
                              verify that this is a True ECK
                              Master... like Graham claimed.
                              But we all know how that turned
                              out.

                              Then again, this validating
                              procedure is also used to
                              prevent more and more
                              delusional claims and
                              threats to Klemp. Plus,
                              thereare a lot of psychologically
                              impaired, dysfunctional,
                              and psychotic ECKists out
                              there in la la land. Thus,
                              Klemp has to employ stop-
                              gap measures, dogma,
                              and rules to maintain order
                              and to keep them happy
                              and standing in line for
                              their turn... or so they
                              imagine.

                              Prometheus

                              Drew van Rijk wrote:
                              >
                              > Since Rebazar does not exist now, nor did in the past, verily I say unto you he was not reading the bible or creating old english...  LOL
                              >
                              jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > From: jonathanjohns96 <jonathanjohns96@...>
                              > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Thee and ye. What is that?
                              > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                              > Received: Tuesday, September 14, 2010, 1:39 AM
                              >
                              >All,
                              >
                              > I know that some member of Eckankar is going to say "Maybe Rebazar was reading the KIng James version of the Bible."
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > My answer to that is that Eckankar teaches that all religions came from Ecknakar. That means that Christianity came from Eckankar. So why would Rebazar have been reading the Bible?"
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Oh, OK. Now I get it! How could I have been so stupid! Rebazar Tarz was the person who originated Old English!
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Jonathan
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              jonathanjohns96@> wrote:
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > Promethues wrote:
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > "But I was wondering, once again
                              >
                              > > as I did when I was an ECKist,
                              >
                              > > Why does Rebazar speak using
                              >
                              > > words like "thee' and "ye?" This
                              >
                              > > "Torch Bearer" and former Mahanta
                              >
                              > > who is over 500 years old and
                              >
                              > > who can travel anywhere physically
                              >
                              > > or otherwise and who PT claimed
                              >
                              > > trained him apparently stepped in
                              >
                              > > as the LEM (for Sudar/Kirpal) and
                              >
                              > > handed Twitchell the Rod of ECK
                              >
                              > > Power... still speaks using thee
                              >
                              > > and ye?"
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > JJ - After I stopped laughing at your funny comment, I started thinking. "Isn't this ye and thee stuff actually Old English? And the reason that it sounds Holy in a traditional Christian sort of way is because some of the old versions of the Bible were written in Old English?
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > And so I turned to that "bastion of truth." That "torchbearer of all things correct." Not Eckankar, but, Wikipedia:
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > Wikipedia - Thou
                              >
                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou
                              >
                              > > "Most modern English speakers encounter "thou" only in the works of Shakespeare, in the works of other medieval and early modern writers, and in the King James Bible.
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > So after realizing that in this case it looks like I was correct, I wondered about a few things:
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > 1. Rebazar is 500 years old. How old is Old English?
                              >
                              > > 2. Regardless of the answer to #1, how and why did Rebazar learn to speak Old English?
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > Wikipedia - Old English
                              >
                              > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_english
                              >
                              > > "Old English (Englisc, Anglisc, Ænglisc) or Anglo-Saxon[1] is an early form of the English language that was spoken and written by the Anglo-Saxons and their descendants in parts of what are now England and south-eastern Scotland between at least the mid-5th century and the mid-12th century."
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > Wikipedia - 5th Century
                              >
                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_century
                              >
                              > > "The 5th century is the period from 401 to 500 in accordance with the Julian calendar in Anno Domini/Common Era."
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > Wikipedia - 12th Century
                              >
                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_century
                              >
                              > > "As a means of recording the passage of time, the 12th century is the period from 1101 to 1200 in accordance with the Julian calendar in the Christian/Common Era."
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > Rebazar's birth year
                              >
                              > > 1965-500=1465
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > If Rebazar was 35 years old in 1500, that means he was speaking Old English about 350 years after it had died out in England and Scotland.
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > Ok, I admit it it. I have no idea what any of this proves...
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > - - - - - - - - - - -
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > UPDATE: Maybe I do know what it proves. Maybe Twitchell knew that most Americans, being of a Christian background, would associate Old English with the Bible. In other words, with Holy writings or spiritual truth.
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > I knew that Twitchell stole some verses from the Bible, but I never thought about this before. The fact that Twitchell may have had Rebazar use the words thee and ye in order to create a spiritual-like persona for Rebazar.
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > I'm wondering whether Ford Johnson mentioned this. He must have.
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > Search results of "Confessions"
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > "old english" - no occurrences
                              >
                              > > "king james" - one occurrence (p 117) but not related to a discussion of Twitchell's use of thee and ye.
                              >
                              > > "thee" - numerous, but Ford actually uses the word 'thee' in some of his HCS affirmations.
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > But Ford is allowed to use thee since he was raised in the United States. Plus, I think that if Ford was questioned, he would acknowledge that he probably got the word "thee" from reading the King James version of the Bible. I don't think Twitchell would acknowledge that Rebazar got the word "thee" from reading the King James version of the Bible, or from somehow being exposed to Old English which was spoken from 450 to 1150.
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > Questions for further study.
                              >
                              > > 1. Did all the Eck masters use thee and ye? Or just Rebazar?
                              >
                              > > 2. Did these Eck masters speak that way just because they knew Twitchell would feel comfortable with it?
                              >
                              > > 3. Did any of Paul's actual gurus such as Kirpal Singh or Premananda use thee and ye in their speech?
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                            • jonathanjohns96
                              Prometheus, Thank you for the comments. I found them to be very helpful and very healing. Jonathan
                              Message 14 of 22 , Sep 15, 2010
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                                Prometheus,

                                Thank you for the comments. I found them to be very helpful and very healing.

                                Jonathan
                              • prometheus_973
                                Hello Jonathan, Thanks. I don t know what I said, but thanks anyway. Sometimes I think I should write and thank Klemp for being such a boring wannabe who lacks
                                Message 15 of 22 , Sep 16, 2010
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                                  Hello Jonathan,
                                  Thanks. I don't know what I said,
                                  but thanks anyway. Sometimes
                                  I think I should write and thank
                                  Klemp for being such a boring
                                  wannabe who lacks charisma.

                                  BTW-Imagine how many more
                                  ECKists there would be, now, if
                                  Klemp had even close to the same
                                  amount of charisma as Twitchell
                                  or Gross had.

                                  Plus, it seems that Klemp has
                                  been in semi-retirement for
                                  a number of years now. This
                                  semi-seclusion/retirement
                                  became more apparent when
                                  he stopped traveling to major
                                  ECK Seminars. I'm thinking that
                                  he made more "cheesy" health
                                  excuses to in order to justify
                                  his changes in behaviour and
                                  not wanting to travel.

                                  Remember the time HK talked
                                  about eating too much cheese
                                  and this had a negative health
                                  effect upon him? He probably
                                  got constipated! It was stupid
                                  on his part, but isn't that called
                                  gluttony too and is one of the
                                  Five Passions of the Mind. One
                                  would think that a Mahanta
                                  (although not perfect) would
                                  be higher in consciousness.

                                  However, Klemp turns even his
                                  own lack of consciousness and
                                  common sense around and uses
                                  his ill health as an excuse. His
                                  illnesses have now become the
                                  result of taking on more Karma
                                  for his chelas and acting as a karmic
                                  "holding tank" so that his Chelas
                                  and H.I.s can advance in consciousness
                                  and, thereby, in their initiations.

                                  How's that worked out for ECKists?
                                  In Eckankar today there are even
                                  more restrictions/requirements
                                  for H.I.s to qualify for the next
                                  higher initiation and title (i.e. cleric,
                                  initiator, ESA, RESA). And, thanks
                                  to Klemp, there are no longer
                                  Major ECK Seminars in California
                                  and Florida in the colder months
                                  of Oct. and March-April.

                                  BTW- Don't "Holding Tanks" get
                                  emptied so that more can be taken
                                  in? It's an on-going process/cycle
                                  kind of like using that old "Snow
                                  Ball Technique" over and over again.

                                  Well, this is all a moot point isn't
                                  it. Klemp has no powers... he's a
                                  fraud. I can see why he seems meek,
                                  at times, since he is aware that it's
                                  all a game he's playing and that
                                  any day now he'll be discovered
                                  for being a fraud. That's why he's
                                  not letting ECKists know where
                                  all the money is going since he's
                                  hide enough away to take care
                                  of himself just in case. But, what
                                  will that take for more ECKists to
                                  see through the facade? I don't know...
                                  maybe HK dropping over dead or
                                  having a stroke or maybe cancer?

                                  Don't get me wrong... I'd never
                                  wish that on anyone, but it happens
                                  everyday to all kinds of people and
                                  even to H.I.s. (of course). Yes, H.I.s
                                  are not special, and they get cancer
                                  too! Thus, Klemp is not exempt
                                  from this happening to him. Look
                                  at Twitchell... he didn't predict
                                  his heart attack and death! But,
                                  according to his own EK scripture
                                  (as the LEM/Mahanta) he should
                                  have known well in advance as
                                  to when he would be translating.

                                  However, in "Difficulties Of Being
                                  The Living ECK Master" Paul was
                                  meeting with his inner circle of
                                  H.I.s (in a business meeting) on
                                  the day of his death. The notes
                                  and comments of that meeting
                                  are given here. And, PT was making
                                  plans for his future with Eckankar
                                  in this meeting. Paul gave no indication
                                  (just the opposite) of his impending
                                  death on that very same night.

                                  This is just one more reason as
                                  to why this historical ECK book
                                  was not republished by Eckankar
                                  (Klemp). It's not like "Difficulties"
                                  can't be republished/reprinted
                                  since Eckankar has its own printing
                                  equipment, does the publishing,
                                  and owns PT's copyrights. Thus,
                                  this is just one more cover-up
                                  showing that Eckankar is simply
                                  another false teaching/religion
                                  that can't keep it's promises in/for
                                  this Here and Now.

                                  Prometheus





                                  Jonathan wrote:

                                  Prometheus,

                                  Thank you for the comments. I found them to be very helpful and very healing.

                                  Jonathan
                                • postekcon
                                  EKULT, AN APPRAISAL I remember the ekult I joined 1970 s. It seemed alive, vibrant, a movement which seemed to know what it was about and where it was going!
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Sep 17, 2010
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                                    EKULT, AN APPRAISAL

                                    I remember the ekult I joined 1970's. It seemed alive, vibrant, a movement which seemed to know what it was about and where it was going! Under the charismatic and artistic leadership of Darwin Gross membership numbers grew and grew. Because the movement was 'CURRENT' for the consciousness of those times, new members came with minimal recruitment effort!

                                    We were excited. Ekult promised us it had the 'tools' to experience greater individualism, freedom and spiritual 'unfoldment', and we believed the hype! We had grown up in the 'Flower Power' era and listening to The Beatles music! We were interested in TM (transcendental meditation), we were interested in all things 'eastern' and wanted to know more. Paul Twitchell too, was in-tune with this consciousness, he was 'CURRENT' for the times. The mail order education system he founded, matched those needs. Ignoring all plagiaristic issues here, the books and discourses he compiled from the works of other authors satisfied us for several years.

                                    However consciousness, being fluid, changes, moves on and around and ekult got left behind! Ekult shot itself in the foot, the day it gave leadership to Harold Klemp. Unlike Paul Twitchell he has never been able to tune-in to the consciousness (keep 'current'), produce or even 'compile' works which are dynamic and relevant for the times.

                                    BTW- In the business world, when a product matches the market forces (consciousness) of the day, it is successful; it is never the other way round!

                                    You might like to observe the consciousness of youth and those who are under 30 years of age. They tend to live life to the extreme to the edge of experience e.g. extreme sports etc. They show NO fear of the creation of either sin or karma, or of the consequences of either, whether now or in a hereafter. This is why a karma-based, savior-style religion like the one HK develops makes no sense to their consciousness. Even their devoted ekult parents have been unable to indoctrinate them in ekult ways once they've left the childhood years. (HK himself included as such a parent, I believe!).

                                    Ekult is an organization born out of human arrogance! Consider this! What level of human arrogance is shown, where an earthly organization claims it has commandeered the very spirit of god (energy of the universe); claims it can trademark it in earthly law and then proceed to market it for profit!! This reminds me of a certain medieval church? It too claimed it had commandeered the way of 'salvation' for the gullible populace. That medieval church, with its resa-structure-style network of upwards reporting, soon descended the slippery slope to the 'Inquisition'. History has a habit of repeating itself…

                                    Perhaps if ekult had stayed with its original brief and admitted openly to the world, it had been founded as a 'reference' point for the best available philosophies and theories for living life, like a Wikipedia, then it might have remained 'CURRENT'. If only it had cleaned up its act, it could have evolved as an altruistic service and been of benefit to mankind today. Instead, seeing the opportunity for financial gain, HK and owner/s colluded to formulate yet another dead religion to add the world's list. The modus operandi reminds me again of that medieval church which once sold indulgences i.e. money to church in exchange for remission of sins in the hereafter! Similarly ekult devotees can gain prominence (get noticed) by spending lots of own time and money in ekult 'service', and are often rewarded with faster progress through the 'initiation' process. To put this very simply, in ekult, receipt of the next initiation signifies the remission of some sin (karma)!

                                    'Service' to ekult is always emphasized and hyped as being direct service to the spirit of god! But Catch22 here as ekult also says the true godhead is a Being so detached, it has no interest whether mortals service it or not! What a clever ruse to induce 'service' for ekult coffers and hide its mlm business model. For those of you who may be unfamiliar with how ekult sources funding. In addition to church-plate style donations etc., ekult followers (like mlm affiliates) are expected to service promotional events and fund from their personal wallet promotional materials and products. More importantly, there is also a legal understanding that donations, collected at local level, belong to ekult HQ, and amounts are uploaded accordingly!

                                    In conclusion, what of any future for ekult – there is none – it's already too late? To my observations what remains are isolated pockets of ekult devotees mostly seniors, mostly single females! Grayed-out, like inactive pc commands, I note the dynamism and energy, I once admired, is long long dead, while larger and ever larger pics of their cultic leader casts its shadow over them…
                                    -Postekcon



                                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hello Jonathan,
                                    > Thanks. I don't know what I said,
                                    > but thanks anyway. Sometimes
                                    > I think I should write and thank
                                    > Klemp for being such a boring
                                    > wannabe who lacks charisma.
                                    >
                                    > BTW-Imagine how many more
                                    > ECKists there would be, now, if
                                    > Klemp had even close to the same
                                    > amount of charisma as Twitchell
                                    > or Gross had.
                                    >
                                    > Plus, it seems that Klemp has
                                    > been in semi-retirement for
                                    > a number of years now. This
                                    > semi-seclusion/retirement
                                    > became more apparent when
                                    > he stopped traveling to major
                                    > ECK Seminars. I'm thinking that
                                    > he made more "cheesy" health
                                    > excuses to in order to justify
                                    > his changes in behaviour and
                                    > not wanting to travel.
                                    >
                                    > Remember the time HK talked
                                    > about eating too much cheese
                                    > and this had a negative health
                                    > effect upon him? He probably
                                    > got constipated! It was stupid
                                    > on his part, but isn't that called
                                    > gluttony too and is one of the
                                    > Five Passions of the Mind. One
                                    > would think that a Mahanta
                                    > (although not perfect) would
                                    > be higher in consciousness.
                                    >
                                    > However, Klemp turns even his
                                    > own lack of consciousness and
                                    > common sense around and uses
                                    > his ill health as an excuse. His
                                    > illnesses have now become the
                                    > result of taking on more Karma
                                    > for his chelas and acting as a karmic
                                    > "holding tank" so that his Chelas
                                    > and H.I.s can advance in consciousness
                                    > and, thereby, in their initiations.
                                    >
                                    > How's that worked out for ECKists?
                                    > In Eckankar today there are even
                                    > more restrictions/requirements
                                    > for H.I.s to qualify for the next
                                    > higher initiation and title (i.e. cleric,
                                    > initiator, ESA, RESA). And, thanks
                                    > to Klemp, there are no longer
                                    > Major ECK Seminars in California
                                    > and Florida in the colder months
                                    > of Oct. and March-April.
                                    >
                                    > BTW- Don't "Holding Tanks" get
                                    > emptied so that more can be taken
                                    > in? It's an on-going process/cycle
                                    > kind of like using that old "Snow
                                    > Ball Technique" over and over again.
                                    >
                                    > Well, this is all a moot point isn't
                                    > it. Klemp has no powers... he's a
                                    > fraud. I can see why he seems meek,
                                    > at times, since he is aware that it's
                                    > all a game he's playing and that
                                    > any day now he'll be discovered
                                    > for being a fraud. That's why he's
                                    > not letting ECKists know where
                                    > all the money is going since he's
                                    > hide enough away to take care
                                    > of himself just in case. But, what
                                    > will that take for more ECKists to
                                    > see through the facade? I don't know...
                                    > maybe HK dropping over dead or
                                    > having a stroke or maybe cancer?
                                    >
                                    > Don't get me wrong... I'd never
                                    > wish that on anyone, but it happens
                                    > everyday to all kinds of people and
                                    > even to H.I.s. (of course). Yes, H.I.s
                                    > are not special, and they get cancer
                                    > too! Thus, Klemp is not exempt
                                    > from this happening to him. Look
                                    > at Twitchell... he didn't predict
                                    > his heart attack and death! But,
                                    > according to his own EK scripture
                                    > (as the LEM/Mahanta) he should
                                    > have known well in advance as
                                    > to when he would be translating.
                                    >
                                    > However, in "Difficulties Of Being
                                    > The Living ECK Master" Paul was
                                    > meeting with his inner circle of
                                    > H.I.s (in a business meeting) on
                                    > the day of his death. The notes
                                    > and comments of that meeting
                                    > are given here. And, PT was making
                                    > plans for his future with Eckankar
                                    > in this meeting. Paul gave no indication
                                    > (just the opposite) of his impending
                                    > death on that very same night.
                                    >
                                    > This is just one more reason as
                                    > to why this historical ECK book
                                    > was not republished by Eckankar
                                    > (Klemp). It's not like "Difficulties"
                                    > can't be republished/reprinted
                                    > since Eckankar has its own printing
                                    > equipment, does the publishing,
                                    > and owns PT's copyrights. Thus,
                                    > this is just one more cover-up
                                    > showing that Eckankar is simply
                                    > another false teaching/religion
                                    > that can't keep it's promises in/for
                                    > this Here and Now.
                                    >
                                    > Prometheus
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Jonathan wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Prometheus,
                                    >
                                    > Thank you for the comments. I found them to be very helpful and very healing.
                                    >
                                    > Jonathan
                                    >
                                  • jonathanjohns96
                                    JJ - Please note. I only pulled forward postekcon s message. I m going to comment on each paragraph. ... JJ - I joined in 1979, and I can confirm that your
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Sep 17, 2010
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                                      JJ - Please note. I only pulled forward postekcon's message. I'm going to comment on each paragraph.


                                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "postekcon" <postekcon@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > EKULT, AN APPRAISAL
                                      >
                                      > postekcon > I remember the ekult I joined 1970's. It seemed alive, vibrant, a movement which seemed to know what it was about and where it was going! Under the charismatic and artistic leadership of Darwin Gross membership numbers grew and grew. Because the movement was 'CURRENT' for the consciousness of those times, new members came with minimal recruitment effort!
                                      >

                                      JJ - I joined in 1979, and I can confirm that your description fits Eckankar very well for the 1979 time frame. You really made a very nice description here. I always thought there was a big difference between Eckankar when I joined in 1979 and Eckankar after Klemp had been in charge for awhile. Your description of Eckankar in the 1970s is beautiful.

                                      > postekcon > We were excited. Ekult promised us it had the 'tools' to experience greater individualism, freedom and spiritual 'unfoldment', and we believed the hype! We had grown up in the 'Flower Power' era and listening to The Beatles music! We were interested in TM (transcendental meditation), we were interested in all things 'eastern' and wanted to know more. Paul Twitchell too, was in-tune with this consciousness, he was 'CURRENT' for the times. The mail order education system he founded, matched those needs. Ignoring all plagiaristic issues here, the books and discourses he compiled from the works of other authors satisfied us for several years.

                                      JJ - Another beautiful description of Eckankar in the 1970s under Gross. I agree completely with your description and comments. Back when I joined in 1979, being interested in "eastern traditions" was OK, even well thought of in Eckankar and in many other parts of society as well. Then under Klemp, he got the "bright" [<-- sarcasm] idea that this was keeping members away. So he steered Eckankar in the direction of imitating Christianity as a way of increasing the membership. Experience has shown that this was a miserable failure in terms of bringing members into Eckankar. After all, other than saying that the HU is a prayer, the underlying teachings are still like the Eastern religions which Eckankar copied (Sant Mant, etc.).

                                      >
                                      > postekcon > However consciousness, being fluid, changes, moves on and around and ekult got left behind! Ekult shot itself in the foot, the day it gave leadership to Harold Klemp. Unlike Paul Twitchell he has never been able to tune-in to the consciousness (keep 'current'), produce or even 'compile' works which are dynamic and relevant for the times.
                                      >

                                      JJ - I agree 100% with your statement that "Ekult shot itself in the foot, the day it gave leadership to Harold Klemp." In fact, I had the same thought a few days ago. Even the same metaphor! Your view that it had to do with Klemp's inability to tune into the consciousness of the times is what I disagree with. I don't think Klemp was trying to that in any genuine way. He was only trying to tune into the consciousness of the times by asking the question "How can we get new members into Eckankar?" The answer he came up with was "Make Eckankar look like Christianity on the surface." I think Eckankar should have been honest and true to its roots and promoted itself for what it is: a copy of Sant Mant, etc., which has been modified for Westerners. Instead, Klemp turned Eckankar into something with a thin veneer of Christianity, but with the same basic Eastern teachings underneath (if you look hard enough), but now emphasizing the use of dreams for spiritual unfoldment.

                                      > postekcon > BTW- In the business world, when a product matches the market forces (consciousness) of the day, it is successful; it is never the other way round!
                                      >
                                      > postekcon > You might like to observe the consciousness of youth and those who are under 30 years of age. They tend to live life to the extreme to the edge of experience e.g. extreme sports etc. They show NO fear of the creation of either sin or karma, or of the consequences of either, whether now or in a hereafter. This is why a karma-based, savior-style religion like the one HK develops makes no sense to their consciousness. Even their devoted ekult parents have been unable to indoctrinate them in ekult ways once they've left the childhood years. (HK himself included as such a parent, I believe!).
                                      >

                                      JJ - ECKANKAR IMITATED CHRISTIANITY. What you say about the under 30 crowd is very true. But that same group of people joined Eckankar like crazy under Gross in the 1970s. Eckankar, as it was originally set up by Twitchell, and maintained by Gross, is never going to be for everyone. It is always going to be for a small minority of people. I think Eckankar's failings in recruitment since 1990 is due to the fact that instead of being true to themselves, they started imitating everyone else. If you have a unique product, why would you ruin your business by starting to imitate everyone else? Eckankar hired a Madison Avenue firm to analyze Eckankar. Klemp spoke about it in one of his talks. Klemp joked that they recommended that Eckankar send Rebazar on a tour around the United States. I think what really happened, is that this report told Eckankar that the Eastern words and concepts were keeping new members away because Eckankar's pool of possible new members is basically people who come from a Christian background, regardless of whether they practice it seriously or not.

                                      JJ - ECKANKAR IS A PASSIVE APPROACH TO SPIRITUAL UNFOLDMENT. But the most important issue here may be because Eckankar is a very passive approach (this policy is actually consistent with its Eastern predecessors). And most young people today are not into being passive. Quite the opposite! Under Klemp, Eckankar started emphasizing the use of dreams for spiritual unfoldment. Everything else in Eckankar took a back seat to this approach. And Eckankar today still emphasizes surrendering to the master but much more than Twitchell and Gross did. Again, something that is VERY passive. By the time I left Eckankar in 2008 I was sick of reading Klemp's constant requests in the Mystic World that people love him, etc or they would spiritually hold themselves back. This is NOT what young people today are interested in. They are interested in taking charge and actively pursuing spiritual unfoldment. NOT following the passive approaches put forth by Eckankar. If Eckankar is having any success at all it is because it somehow manages to brainwash some people into thinking that Eckankar's approach is active. But as we all know, it is actually sending people in a direction that keeps them slaves to Eckankar by keeping them in a passive mode of functioning: (1) using dreams for spiritual unfoldment, and (2) relying on a master whom you surrender yourself to.

                                      JJ - A quasi-Christian-underlying-Eastern religion emphasizing passive techniques such as dreams for spiritual unfoldment, and requiring people to "surrender to a master" may not be matching the consciousness of today. It just seems that fewer and fewr Westerners are falling for this crap.

                                      > postekcon > Ekult is an organization born out of human arrogance! Consider this! What level of human arrogance is shown, where an earthly organization claims it has commandeered the very spirit of god (energy of the universe); claims it can trademark it in earthly law and then proceed to market it for profit!! This reminds me of a certain medieval church? It too claimed it had commandeered the way of 'salvation' for the gullible populace. That medieval church, with its resa-structure-style network of upwards reporting, soon descended the slippery slope to the 'Inquisition'. History has a habit of repeating itself…
                                      >

                                      JJ - I can't comment about the middle ages because I have no knowledge about it. But you are right about the arrogance of Eckankar trademarking God. As I have written about it before on ET (Eckankar Truth message board) and/or ESA, it is blasphemy against God to think that you can trademark God. Eckankar also trademarked their particular sound of God: HU.

                                      > postekcon > Perhaps if ekult had stayed with its original brief and admitted openly to the world, it had been founded as a 'reference' point for the best available philosophies and theories for living life, like a Wikipedia, then it might have remained 'CURRENT'. If only it had cleaned up its act, it could have evolved as an altruistic service and been of benefit to mankind today. Instead, seeing the opportunity for financial gain, HK and owner/s colluded to formulate yet another dead religion to add the world's list. The modus operandi reminds me again of that medieval church which once sold indulgences i.e. money to church in exchange for remission of sins in the hereafter! Similarly ekult devotees can gain prominence (get noticed) by spending lots of own time and money in ekult 'service', and are often rewarded with faster progress through the 'initiation' process. To put this very simply, in ekult, receipt of the next initiation signifies the remission of some sin (karma)!
                                      >

                                      JJ - One person, Prometheus (on this message board) has written extensively about the "services get rewards" process in Eckankar. I'm sure that both of you are correct. Believe it or not, I was never aware of that in my 29 years in Eckankar (1979-2008). I was out of touch with the actual "goings on" at the local Eck center. I was living in my own world. As a result, much happier, but completely out of touch with what was really going on in Eckankar. In my latter years I had been reading some things about it on the Internet such as Darwin's legal deposition. Honestly, if it wasn't for the Internet, I don't think I would ever found out the truth about Eckankar.

                                      JJ - I think there is some truth to your theory as stated in the beginning of your paragraph. When Klemp took over, he no doubt was made privy to the large amount of plagiarism/lies/exaggerations by Paul Twitchell. He had two choices, either "come clean" or cover it up in order to continue Eckankar's money-making scam. He chose to continue Eckankar's money-making scam. I believe that is what you are saying.

                                      JJ - Question. In your first sentence, did you mean "beliefs" instead of "breif?" That makes more sense to me.

                                      > postekcon > 'Service' to ekult is always emphasized and hyped as being direct service to the spirit of god! But Catch22 here as ekult also says the true godhead is a Being so detached, it has no interest whether mortals service it or not! What a clever ruse to induce 'service' for ekult coffers and hide its mlm business model. For those of you who may be unfamiliar with how ekult sources funding. In addition to church-plate style donations etc., ekult followers (like mlm affiliates) are expected to service promotional events and fund from their personal wallet promotional materials and products. More importantly, there is also a legal understanding that donations, collected at local level, belong to ekult HQ, and amounts are uploaded accordingly!
                                      >

                                      JJ - Eckankar has a lot of hypocrisy. They speak for God, but in the end it is always about financial gain for Eckankar. But your main point is specifically that in Eckankar "Service for God" is really "Money for Eckankar."

                                      JJ - Question. What is "mlm?"

                                      >
                                      > postekcon > In conclusion, what of any future for ekult – there is none – it's already too late? To my observations what remains are isolated pockets of ekult devotees mostly seniors, mostly single females! Grayed-out, like inactive pc commands, I note the dynamism and energy, I once admired, is long long dead, while larger and ever larger pics of their cultic leader casts its shadow over them…
                                      > -Postekcon
                                      >

                                      JJ - Very eloquent writing on your part. I agree that it is mostly the oldsters that are keeping Eckankar going. I mentioned this in one of my first posts on ET/ESA when I first left Eckankar in December of 2008. I think there are fewer and fewer potential new members who are interested in Klemp's dream-based version of Eckankar. In other words, the emphasizing of dreams for spiritual unfoldment. In my own experiences, all of my work was in full consciousness actually talking to Eck masters on the inner. For that, I was made to feel like a heretic and pariah when I started telling the Eckists over at a.r.e about it. While in Eckankar, I didn't even dare mention it to all but two or three people. So anyone who has capabilities beyond the "dreaming" techniques currently in Eckankar, you would be better off choosing a more advanced path. I don't know what it is, but you might consider a real Native American shaman if you can find one, and if you can handle the rigors of that. An it's not "easy" like Eckankar is. Looking at the big picture, I think it might be OK to get some basic spiritual awareness under Eckankar or some other religion, but after that, move on, because Eckankar has little to offer.

                                      JJ - So, postekcon, thanks for your post. It was very well written, and very eloquently written. You made a lot of points, and I agree with virtually all of them.

                                      Jonathan
                                    • prometheus_973
                                      Hello All, I saw the following and it reminded me of something: JJ - I agree 100% with your statement that Ekult shot itself in the foot, the day it gave
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Sep 18, 2010
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Hello All,
                                        I saw the following and it reminded me
                                        of something:

                                        "JJ - I agree 100% with your statement that "Ekult shot itself in the foot, the
                                        day it gave leadership to Harold Klemp." In fact, I had the same thought a few
                                        days ago. Even the same metaphor! Your view that it had to do with Klemp's
                                        inability to tune into the consciousness of the times is what I disagree with. I
                                        don't think Klemp was trying to that in any genuine way. He was only trying to
                                        tune into the consciousness of the times by asking the question "How can we get
                                        new members into Eckankar?" The answer he came up with was "Make Eckankar look
                                        like Christianity on the surface." I think Eckankar should have been honest and
                                        true to its roots and promoted itself for what it is: a copy of Sant Mant, etc.,
                                        which has been modified for Westerners. Instead, Klemp turned Eckankar into
                                        something with a thin veneer of Christianity, but with the same basic Eastern
                                        teachings underneath (if you look hard enough), but now emphasizing the use of
                                        dreams for spiritual unfoldment."

                                        [P] Klemp changing the direction of Eckankar
                                        towards Christianity with Sunday Worship Services,
                                        etc. reminded me of the movie of "Silence of
                                        the Lambs." The FBI agent tracked "Buffalo Bill"
                                        down by looking at where and what he coveted.

                                        The same came be applied to Klemp. He was
                                        attending a Luteran Seminary to become a
                                        preacher/minister. Thus, he took Eckankar
                                        in a direction away from the Eastern Teachings
                                        and closer to what he knew and had been
                                        trained in. And, since most Eckists come from
                                        a Christian background and the fact that this
                                        is still, for the most part, a Christian country
                                        (as is Europe) this makes for a familiar fit.

                                        Got to go now.

                                        Prometheus


                                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96" <jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > JJ - Please note. I only pulled forward postekcon's message. I'm going to comment on each paragraph.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "postekcon" <postekcon@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > EKULT, AN APPRAISAL
                                        > >
                                        > > postekcon > I remember the ekult I joined 1970's. It seemed alive, vibrant, a movement which seemed to know what it was about and where it was going! Under the charismatic and artistic leadership of Darwin Gross membership numbers grew and grew. Because the movement was 'CURRENT' for the consciousness of those times, new members came with minimal recruitment effort!
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > JJ - I joined in 1979, and I can confirm that your description fits Eckankar very well for the 1979 time frame. You really made a very nice description here. I always thought there was a big difference between Eckankar when I joined in 1979 and Eckankar after Klemp had been in charge for awhile. Your description of Eckankar in the 1970s is beautiful.
                                        >
                                        > > postekcon > We were excited. Ekult promised us it had the 'tools' to experience greater individualism, freedom and spiritual 'unfoldment', and we believed the hype! We had grown up in the 'Flower Power' era and listening to The Beatles music! We were interested in TM (transcendental meditation), we were interested in all things 'eastern' and wanted to know more. Paul Twitchell too, was in-tune with this consciousness, he was 'CURRENT' for the times. The mail order education system he founded, matched those needs. Ignoring all plagiaristic issues here, the books and discourses he compiled from the works of other authors satisfied us for several years.
                                        >
                                        > JJ - Another beautiful description of Eckankar in the 1970s under Gross. I agree completely with your description and comments. Back when I joined in 1979, being interested in "eastern traditions" was OK, even well thought of in Eckankar and in many other parts of society as well. Then under Klemp, he got the "bright" [<-- sarcasm] idea that this was keeping members away. So he steered Eckankar in the direction of imitating Christianity as a way of increasing the membership. Experience has shown that this was a miserable failure in terms of bringing members into Eckankar. After all, other than saying that the HU is a prayer, the underlying teachings are still like the Eastern religions which Eckankar copied (Sant Mant, etc.).
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        > > postekcon > However consciousness, being fluid, changes, moves on and around and ekult got left behind! Ekult shot itself in the foot, the day it gave leadership to Harold Klemp. Unlike Paul Twitchell he has never been able to tune-in to the consciousness (keep 'current'), produce or even 'compile' works which are dynamic and relevant for the times.
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > JJ - I agree 100% with your statement that "Ekult shot itself in the foot, the day it gave leadership to Harold Klemp." In fact, I had the same thought a few days ago. Even the same metaphor! Your view that it had to do with Klemp's inability to tune into the consciousness of the times is what I disagree with. I don't think Klemp was trying to that in any genuine way. He was only trying to tune into the consciousness of the times by asking the question "How can we get new members into Eckankar?" The answer he came up with was "Make Eckankar look like Christianity on the surface." I think Eckankar should have been honest and true to its roots and promoted itself for what it is: a copy of Sant Mant, etc., which has been modified for Westerners. Instead, Klemp turned Eckankar into something with a thin veneer of Christianity, but with the same basic Eastern teachings underneath (if you look hard enough), but now emphasizing the use of dreams for spiritual unfoldment.
                                        >
                                        > > postekcon > BTW- In the business world, when a product matches the market forces (consciousness) of the day, it is successful; it is never the other way round!
                                        > >
                                        > > postekcon > You might like to observe the consciousness of youth and those who are under 30 years of age. They tend to live life to the extreme to the edge of experience e.g. extreme sports etc. They show NO fear of the creation of either sin or karma, or of the consequences of either, whether now or in a hereafter. This is why a karma-based, savior-style religion like the one HK develops makes no sense to their consciousness. Even their devoted ekult parents have been unable to indoctrinate them in ekult ways once they've left the childhood years. (HK himself included as such a parent, I believe!).
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > JJ - ECKANKAR IMITATED CHRISTIANITY. What you say about the under 30 crowd is very true. But that same group of people joined Eckankar like crazy under Gross in the 1970s. Eckankar, as it was originally set up by Twitchell, and maintained by Gross, is never going to be for everyone. It is always going to be for a small minority of people. I think Eckankar's failings in recruitment since 1990 is due to the fact that instead of being true to themselves, they started imitating everyone else. If you have a unique product, why would you ruin your business by starting to imitate everyone else? Eckankar hired a Madison Avenue firm to analyze Eckankar. Klemp spoke about it in one of his talks. Klemp joked that they recommended that Eckankar send Rebazar on a tour around the United States. I think what really happened, is that this report told Eckankar that the Eastern words and concepts were keeping new members away because Eckankar's pool of possible new members is basically people who come from a Christian background, regardless of whether they practice it seriously or not.
                                        >
                                        > JJ - ECKANKAR IS A PASSIVE APPROACH TO SPIRITUAL UNFOLDMENT. But the most important issue here may be because Eckankar is a very passive approach (this policy is actually consistent with its Eastern predecessors). And most young people today are not into being passive. Quite the opposite! Under Klemp, Eckankar started emphasizing the use of dreams for spiritual unfoldment. Everything else in Eckankar took a back seat to this approach. And Eckankar today still emphasizes surrendering to the master but much more than Twitchell and Gross did. Again, something that is VERY passive. By the time I left Eckankar in 2008 I was sick of reading Klemp's constant requests in the Mystic World that people love him, etc or they would spiritually hold themselves back. This is NOT what young people today are interested in. They are interested in taking charge and actively pursuing spiritual unfoldment. NOT following the passive approaches put forth by Eckankar. If Eckankar is having any success at all it is because it somehow manages to brainwash some people into thinking that Eckankar's approach is active. But as we all know, it is actually sending people in a direction that keeps them slaves to Eckankar by keeping them in a passive mode of functioning: (1) using dreams for spiritual unfoldment, and (2) relying on a master whom you surrender yourself to.
                                        >
                                        > JJ - A quasi-Christian-underlying-Eastern religion emphasizing passive techniques such as dreams for spiritual unfoldment, and requiring people to "surrender to a master" may not be matching the consciousness of today. It just seems that fewer and fewr Westerners are falling for this crap.
                                        >
                                        > > postekcon > Ekult is an organization born out of human arrogance! Consider this! What level of human arrogance is shown, where an earthly organization claims it has commandeered the very spirit of god (energy of the universe); claims it can trademark it in earthly law and then proceed to market it for profit!! This reminds me of a certain medieval church? It too claimed it had commandeered the way of 'salvation' for the gullible populace. That medieval church, with its resa-structure-style network of upwards reporting, soon descended the slippery slope to the 'Inquisition'. History has a habit of repeating itself…
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > JJ - I can't comment about the middle ages because I have no knowledge about it. But you are right about the arrogance of Eckankar trademarking God. As I have written about it before on ET (Eckankar Truth message board) and/or ESA, it is blasphemy against God to think that you can trademark God. Eckankar also trademarked their particular sound of God: HU.
                                        >
                                        > > postekcon > Perhaps if ekult had stayed with its original brief and admitted openly to the world, it had been founded as a 'reference' point for the best available philosophies and theories for living life, like a Wikipedia, then it might have remained 'CURRENT'. If only it had cleaned up its act, it could have evolved as an altruistic service and been of benefit to mankind today. Instead, seeing the opportunity for financial gain, HK and owner/s colluded to formulate yet another dead religion to add the world's list. The modus operandi reminds me again of that medieval church which once sold indulgences i.e. money to church in exchange for remission of sins in the hereafter! Similarly ekult devotees can gain prominence (get noticed) by spending lots of own time and money in ekult 'service', and are often rewarded with faster progress through the 'initiation' process. To put this very simply, in ekult, receipt of the next initiation signifies the remission of some sin (karma)!
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > JJ - One person, Prometheus (on this message board) has written extensively about the "services get rewards" process in Eckankar. I'm sure that both of you are correct. Believe it or not, I was never aware of that in my 29 years in Eckankar (1979-2008). I was out of touch with the actual "goings on" at the local Eck center. I was living in my own world. As a result, much happier, but completely out of touch with what was really going on in Eckankar. In my latter years I had been reading some things about it on the Internet such as Darwin's legal deposition. Honestly, if it wasn't for the Internet, I don't think I would ever found out the truth about Eckankar.
                                        >
                                        > JJ - I think there is some truth to your theory as stated in the beginning of your paragraph. When Klemp took over, he no doubt was made privy to the large amount of plagiarism/lies/exaggerations by Paul Twitchell. He had two choices, either "come clean" or cover it up in order to continue Eckankar's money-making scam. He chose to continue Eckankar's money-making scam. I believe that is what you are saying.
                                        >
                                        > JJ - Question. In your first sentence, did you mean "beliefs" instead of "breif?" That makes more sense to me.
                                        >
                                        > > postekcon > 'Service' to ekult is always emphasized and hyped as being direct service to the spirit of god! But Catch22 here as ekult also says the true godhead is a Being so detached, it has no interest whether mortals service it or not! What a clever ruse to induce 'service' for ekult coffers and hide its mlm business model. For those of you who may be unfamiliar with how ekult sources funding. In addition to church-plate style donations etc., ekult followers (like mlm affiliates) are expected to service promotional events and fund from their personal wallet promotional materials and products. More importantly, there is also a legal understanding that donations, collected at local level, belong to ekult HQ, and amounts are uploaded accordingly!
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > JJ - Eckankar has a lot of hypocrisy. They speak for God, but in the end it is always about financial gain for Eckankar. But your main point is specifically that in Eckankar "Service for God" is really "Money for Eckankar."
                                        >
                                        > JJ - Question. What is "mlm?"
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        > > postekcon > In conclusion, what of any future for ekult – there is none – it's already too late? To my observations what remains are isolated pockets of ekult devotees mostly seniors, mostly single females! Grayed-out, like inactive pc commands, I note the dynamism and energy, I once admired, is long long dead, while larger and ever larger pics of their cultic leader casts its shadow over them…
                                        > > -Postekcon
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > JJ - Very eloquent writing on your part. I agree that it is mostly the oldsters that are keeping Eckankar going. I mentioned this in one of my first posts on ET/ESA when I first left Eckankar in December of 2008. I think there are fewer and fewer potential new members who are interested in Klemp's dream-based version of Eckankar. In other words, the emphasizing of dreams for spiritual unfoldment. In my own experiences, all of my work was in full consciousness actually talking to Eck masters on the inner. For that, I was made to feel like a heretic and pariah when I started telling the Eckists over at a.r.e about it. While in Eckankar, I didn't even dare mention it to all but two or three people. So anyone who has capabilities beyond the "dreaming" techniques currently in Eckankar, you would be better off choosing a more advanced path. I don't know what it is, but you might consider a real Native American shaman if you can find one, and if you can handle the rigors of that. An it's not "easy" like Eckankar is. Looking at the big picture, I think it might be OK to get some basic spiritual awareness under Eckankar or some other religion, but after that, move on, because Eckankar has little to offer.
                                        >
                                        > JJ - So, postekcon, thanks for your post. It was very well written, and very eloquently written. You made a lot of points, and I agree with virtually all of them.
                                        >
                                        > Jonathan
                                        >
                                      • etznab@aol.com
                                        I could identify with a number of points in that appraisal. I liked this part especially: BTW- In the business world, when a product matches the market forces
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Sep 18, 2010
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          I could identify with a number of points in
                                          that appraisal. I liked this part especially:

                                          "BTW- In the business world, when a product
                                          matches the market forces (consciousness)
                                          of the day, it is successful; it is never the
                                          other way round!"

                                          And about the youth, and consciousness,
                                          the youth of today have easy access to a
                                          lot more information and sources of inform-
                                          ation for research purposes, where most of
                                          the older generations had the library and a
                                          card catalog.

                                          I'd often thought about Paul Twitchell in the
                                          library, compiling and researching. And now
                                          I ask myself: WHY DID IT EVER STOP?

                                          Today, with the resources available, people
                                          can not only look at materials that Paul T.
                                          compiled & researched from, but they can
                                          take it further by continuing to compile and
                                          research (not forgetting to cite references &
                                          credit sources, of course). However, how
                                          much does it happen in organized religion?
                                          Because, doesn't it challenge the traditional
                                          existing dogma whenever a person decides
                                          to improve on it? Or, go beyond it? (Not to
                                          mention, expose it, give some history of it
                                          and show where it REALLY came from.)

                                          What are Eckankar's chances of seeing a
                                          "REFORMATION"? Personally, I think it's
                                          inevitable. The organization will change, or
                                          will become another fossil religion. Both of
                                          these forces are working antagonistic to
                                          one another in the lives of many people to-
                                          day, IMO. There is the traditional religious
                                          dogma and there is the need to change it.
                                          Some want change, and others are afraid
                                          of what that will mean to the old cherished
                                          dogma.

                                          Etznab

                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: postekcon <postekcon@...>
                                          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Fri, Sep 17, 2010 2:40 am
                                          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: All ECKists Should Respond To
                                          This In Order To Vent

                                           
                                          EKULT, AN APPRAISAL

                                          I remember the ekult I joined 1970's. It seemed alive, vibrant, a
                                          movement which seemed to know what it was about and where it was going!
                                          Under the charismatic and artistic leadership of Darwin Gross
                                          membership numbers grew and grew. Because the movement was 'CURRENT'
                                          for the consciousness of those times, new members came with minimal
                                          recruitment effort!

                                          We were excited. Ekult promised us it had the 'tools' to experience
                                          greater individualism, freedom and spiritual 'unfoldment', and we
                                          believed the hype! We had grown up in the 'Flower Power' era and
                                          listening to The Beatles music! We were interested in TM
                                          (transcendental meditation), we were interested in all things 'eastern'
                                          and wanted to know more. Paul Twitchell too, was in-tune with this
                                          consciousness, he was 'CURRENT' for the times. The mail order education
                                          system he founded, matched those needs. Ignoring all plagiaristic
                                          issues here, the books and discourses he compiled from the works of
                                          other authors satisfied us for several years.

                                          However consciousness, being fluid, changes, moves on and around and
                                          ekult got left behind! Ekult shot itself in the foot, the day it gave
                                          leadership to Harold Klemp. Unlike Paul Twitchell he has never been
                                          able to tune-in to the consciousness (keep 'current'), produce or even
                                          'compile' works which are dynamic and relevant for the times.

                                          BTW- In the business world, when a product matches the market forces
                                          (consciousness) of the day, it is successful; it is never the other way
                                          round!

                                          You might like to observe the consciousness of youth and those who are
                                          under 30 years of age. They tend to live life to the extreme to the
                                          edge of experience e.g. extreme sports etc. They show NO fear of the
                                          creation of either sin or karma, or of the consequences of either,
                                          whether now or in a hereafter. This is why a karma-based, savior-style
                                          religion like the one HK develops makes no sense to their
                                          consciousness. Even their devoted ekult parents have been unable to
                                          indoctrinate them in ekult ways once they've left the childhood years.
                                          (HK himself included as such a parent, I believe!).

                                          Ekult is an organization born out of human arrogance! Consider this!
                                          What level of human arrogance is shown, where an earthly organization
                                          claims it has commandeered the very spirit of god (energy of the
                                          universe); claims it can trademark it in earthly law and then proceed
                                          to market it for profit!! This reminds me of a certain medieval
                                          church? It too claimed it had commandeered the way of 'salvation' for
                                          the gullible populace. That medieval church, with its
                                          resa-structure-style network of upwards reporting, soon descended the
                                          slippery slope to the 'Inquisition'. History has a habit of repeating
                                          itself…

                                          Perhaps if ekult had stayed with its original brief and admitted openly
                                          to the world, it had been founded as a 'reference' point for the best
                                          available philosophies and theories for living life, like a Wikipedia,
                                          then it might have remained 'CURRENT'. If only it had cleaned up its
                                          act, it could have evolved as an altruistic service and been of benefit
                                          to mankind today. Instead, seeing the opportunity for financial gain,
                                          HK and owner/s colluded to formulate yet another dead religion to add
                                          the world's list. The modus operandi reminds me again of that medieval
                                          church which once sold indulgences i.e. money to church in exchange for
                                          remission of sins in the hereafter! Similarly ekult devotees can gain
                                          prominence (get noticed) by spending lots of own time and money in
                                          ekult 'service', and are often rewarded with faster progress through
                                          the 'initiation' process. To put this very simply, in ekult, receipt of
                                          the next initiation signifies the remission of some sin (karma)!

                                          'Service' to ekult is always emphasized and hyped as being direct
                                          service to the spirit of god! But Catch22 here as ekult also says the
                                          true godhead is a Being so detached, it has no interest whether mortals
                                          service it or not! What a clever ruse to induce 'service' for ekult
                                          coffers and hide its mlm business model. For those of you who may be
                                          unfamiliar with how ekult sources funding. In addition to church-plate
                                          style donations etc., ekult followers (like mlm affiliates) are
                                          expected to service promotional events and fund from their personal
                                          wallet promotional materials and products. More importantly, there is
                                          also a legal understanding that donations, collected at local level,
                                          belong to ekult HQ, and amounts are uploaded accordingly!

                                          In conclusion, what of any future for ekult – there is none – it's
                                          already too late? To my observations what remains are isolated pockets
                                          of ekult devotees mostly seniors, mostly single females! Grayed-out,
                                          like inactive pc commands, I note the dynamism and energy, I once
                                          admired, is long long dead, while larger and ever larger pics of their
                                          cultic leader casts its shadow over them…
                                          -Postekcon

                                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                                          <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Hello Jonathan,
                                          > Thanks. I don't know what I said,
                                          > but thanks anyway. Sometimes
                                          > I think I should write and thank
                                          > Klemp for being such a boring
                                          > wannabe who lacks charisma.
                                          >
                                          > BTW-Imagine how many more
                                          > ECKists there would be, now, if
                                          > Klemp had even close to the same
                                          > amount of charisma as Twitchell
                                          > or Gross had.
                                          >
                                          > Plus, it seems that Klemp has
                                          > been in semi-retirement for
                                          > a number of years now. This
                                          > semi-seclusion/retirement
                                          > became more apparent when
                                          > he stopped traveling to major
                                          > ECK Seminars. I'm thinking that
                                          > he made more "cheesy" health
                                          > excuses to in order to justify
                                          > his changes in behaviour and
                                          > not wanting to travel.
                                          >
                                          > Remember the time HK talked
                                          > about eating too much cheese
                                          > and this had a negative health
                                          > effect upon him? He probably
                                          > got constipated! It was stupid
                                          > on his part, but isn't that called
                                          > gluttony too and is one of the
                                          > Five Passions of the Mind. One
                                          > would think that a Mahanta
                                          > (although not perfect) would
                                          > be higher in consciousness.
                                          >
                                          > However, Klemp turns even his
                                          > own lack of consciousness and
                                          > common sense around and uses
                                          > his ill health as an excuse. His
                                          > illnesses have now become the
                                          > result of taking on more Karma
                                          > for his chelas and acting as a karmic
                                          > "holding tank" so that his Chelas
                                          > and H.I.s can advance in consciousness
                                          > and, thereby, in their initiations.
                                          >
                                          > How's that worked out for ECKists?
                                          > In Eckankar today there are even
                                          > more restrictions/requirements
                                          > for H.I.s to qualify for the next
                                          > higher initiation and title (i.e. cleric,
                                          > initiator, ESA, RESA). And, thanks
                                          > to Klemp, there are no longer
                                          > Major ECK Seminars in California
                                          > and Florida in the colder months
                                          > of Oct. and March-April.
                                          >
                                          > BTW- Don't "Holding Tanks" get
                                          > emptied so that more can be taken
                                          > in? It's an on-going process/cycle
                                          > kind of like using that old "Snow
                                          > Ball Technique" over and over again.
                                          >
                                          > Well, this is all a moot point isn't
                                          > it. Klemp has no powers... he's a
                                          > fraud. I can see why he seems meek,
                                          > at times, since he is aware that it's
                                          > all a game he's playing and that
                                          > any day now he'll be discovered
                                          > for being a fraud. That's why he's
                                          > not letting ECKists know where
                                          > all the money is going since he's
                                          > hide enough away to take care
                                          > of himself just in case. But, what
                                          > will that take for more ECKists to
                                          > see through the facade? I don't know...
                                          > maybe HK dropping over dead or
                                          > having a stroke or maybe cancer?
                                          >
                                          > Don't get me wrong... I'd never
                                          > wish that on anyone, but it happens
                                          > everyday to all kinds of people and
                                          > even to H.I.s. (of course). Yes, H.I.s
                                          > are not special, and they get cancer
                                          > too! Thus, Klemp is not exempt
                                          > from this happening to him. Look
                                          > at Twitchell... he didn't predict
                                          > his heart attack and death! But,
                                          > according to his own EK scripture
                                          > (as the LEM/Mahanta) he should
                                          > have known well in advance as
                                          > to when he would be translating.
                                          >
                                          > However, in "Difficulties Of Being
                                          > The Living ECK Master" Paul was
                                          > meeting with his inner circle of
                                          > H.I.s (in a business meeting) on
                                          > the day of his death. The notes
                                          > and comments of that meeting
                                          > are given here. And, PT was making
                                          > plans for his future with Eckankar
                                          > in this meeting. Paul gave no indication
                                          > (just the opposite) of his impending
                                          > death on that very same night.
                                          >
                                          > This is just one more reason as
                                          > to why this historical ECK book
                                          > was not republished by Eckankar
                                          > (Klemp). It's not like "Difficulties"
                                          > can't be republished/reprinted
                                          > since Eckankar has its own printing
                                          > equipment, does the publishing,
                                          > and owns PT's copyrights. Thus,
                                          > this is just one more cover-up
                                          > showing that Eckankar is simply
                                          > another false teaching/religion
                                          > that can't keep it's promises in/for
                                          > this Here and Now.
                                          >
                                          > Prometheus
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Jonathan wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Prometheus,
                                          >
                                          > Thank you for the comments. I found them to be very helpful and
                                          very healing.
                                          >
                                          > Jonathan
                                          >
                                        • postekcon
                                          Thank you all for responses... My reference to the medieval church and the indulgences issue, i.e. money to church in exchange for remission of sin in the
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Sep 18, 2010
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                                            Thank you all for responses...

                                            My reference to the medieval church and the 'indulgences' issue, i.e. money to church in exchange for remission of sin in the hereafter, was a special point for HK himself, which he will fully understand from his Lutheran upbringing...

                                            The indulgences issue was the great trigger point for the Protestant Reformation. The big irony here is LOL; we now see HK and his concocted church repeating history... 'Service' (time/money) to ekult in exchange for the remission of sin/karma!

                                            The lem, due to his high initiation level, claims he is god's rep in all universes. So how come, it is only those who 'service' ekult who are on his fast-track to spiritual enlightenment?

                                            A question, I know, many ekult devotees ask of themselves! Ekult is a religion where service to all life is recommended as a way of life! So why is it this 'service' must be in visible form for ekult, for it to actually count as 'service'?
                                            -Postekcon
                                            p.s. in original post, mlm = multi-level-marketing.



                                            Jonathan &

                                            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
                                            >
                                            > I could identify with a number of points in
                                            > that appraisal. I liked this part especially:
                                            >
                                            > "BTW- In the business world, when a product
                                            > matches the market forces (consciousness)
                                            > of the day, it is successful; it is never the
                                            > other way round!"
                                            >
                                            > And about the youth, and consciousness,
                                            > the youth of today have easy access to a
                                            > lot more information and sources of inform-
                                            > ation for research purposes, where most of
                                            > the older generations had the library and a
                                            > card catalog.
                                            >
                                            > I'd often thought about Paul Twitchell in the
                                            > library, compiling and researching. And now
                                            > I ask myself: WHY DID IT EVER STOP?
                                            >
                                            > Today, with the resources available, people
                                            > can not only look at materials that Paul T.
                                            > compiled & researched from, but they can
                                            > take it further by continuing to compile and
                                            > research (not forgetting to cite references &
                                            > credit sources, of course). However, how
                                            > much does it happen in organized religion?
                                            > Because, doesn't it challenge the traditional
                                            > existing dogma whenever a person decides
                                            > to improve on it? Or, go beyond it? (Not to
                                            > mention, expose it, give some history of it
                                            > and show where it REALLY came from.)
                                            >
                                            > What are Eckankar's chances of seeing a
                                            > "REFORMATION"? Personally, I think it's
                                            > inevitable. The organization will change, or
                                            > will become another fossil religion. Both of
                                            > these forces are working antagonistic to
                                            > one another in the lives of many people to-
                                            > day, IMO. There is the traditional religious
                                            > dogma and there is the need to change it.
                                            > Some want change, and others are afraid
                                            > of what that will mean to the old cherished
                                            > dogma.
                                            >
                                            > Etznab
                                            >
                                            > -----Original Message-----
                                            > From: postekcon <postekcon@...>
                                            > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                            > Sent: Fri, Sep 17, 2010 2:40 am
                                            > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: All ECKists Should Respond To
                                            > This In Order To Vent
                                            >
                                            >  
                                            > EKULT, AN APPRAISAL
                                            >
                                            > I remember the ekult I joined 1970's. It seemed alive, vibrant, a
                                            > movement which seemed to know what it was about and where it was going!
                                            > Under the charismatic and artistic leadership of Darwin Gross
                                            > membership numbers grew and grew. Because the movement was 'CURRENT'
                                            > for the consciousness of those times, new members came with minimal
                                            > recruitment effort!
                                            >
                                            > We were excited. Ekult promised us it had the 'tools' to experience
                                            > greater individualism, freedom and spiritual 'unfoldment', and we
                                            > believed the hype! We had grown up in the 'Flower Power' era and
                                            > listening to The Beatles music! We were interested in TM
                                            > (transcendental meditation), we were interested in all things 'eastern'
                                            > and wanted to know more. Paul Twitchell too, was in-tune with this
                                            > consciousness, he was 'CURRENT' for the times. The mail order education
                                            > system he founded, matched those needs. Ignoring all plagiaristic
                                            > issues here, the books and discourses he compiled from the works of
                                            > other authors satisfied us for several years.
                                            >
                                            > However consciousness, being fluid, changes, moves on and around and
                                            > ekult got left behind! Ekult shot itself in the foot, the day it gave
                                            > leadership to Harold Klemp. Unlike Paul Twitchell he has never been
                                            > able to tune-in to the consciousness (keep 'current'), produce or even
                                            > 'compile' works which are dynamic and relevant for the times.
                                            >
                                            > BTW- In the business world, when a product matches the market forces
                                            > (consciousness) of the day, it is successful; it is never the other way
                                            > round!
                                            >
                                            > You might like to observe the consciousness of youth and those who are
                                            > under 30 years of age. They tend to live life to the extreme to the
                                            > edge of experience e.g. extreme sports etc. They show NO fear of the
                                            > creation of either sin or karma, or of the consequences of either,
                                            > whether now or in a hereafter. This is why a karma-based, savior-style
                                            > religion like the one HK develops makes no sense to their
                                            > consciousness. Even their devoted ekult parents have been unable to
                                            > indoctrinate them in ekult ways once they've left the childhood years.
                                            > (HK himself included as such a parent, I believe!).
                                            >
                                            > Ekult is an organization born out of human arrogance! Consider this!
                                            > What level of human arrogance is shown, where an earthly organization
                                            > claims it has commandeered the very spirit of god (energy of the
                                            > universe); claims it can trademark it in earthly law and then proceed
                                            > to market it for profit!! This reminds me of a certain medieval
                                            > church? It too claimed it had commandeered the way of 'salvation' for
                                            > the gullible populace. That medieval church, with its
                                            > resa-structure-style network of upwards reporting, soon descended the
                                            > slippery slope to the 'Inquisition'. History has a habit of repeating
                                            > itself…
                                            >
                                            > Perhaps if ekult had stayed with its original brief and admitted openly
                                            > to the world, it had been founded as a 'reference' point for the best
                                            > available philosophies and theories for living life, like a Wikipedia,
                                            > then it might have remained 'CURRENT'. If only it had cleaned up its
                                            > act, it could have evolved as an altruistic service and been of benefit
                                            > to mankind today. Instead, seeing the opportunity for financial gain,
                                            > HK and owner/s colluded to formulate yet another dead religion to add
                                            > the world's list. The modus operandi reminds me again of that medieval
                                            > church which once sold indulgences i.e. money to church in exchange for
                                            > remission of sins in the hereafter! Similarly ekult devotees can gain
                                            > prominence (get noticed) by spending lots of own time and money in
                                            > ekult 'service', and are often rewarded with faster progress through
                                            > the 'initiation' process. To put this very simply, in ekult, receipt of
                                            > the next initiation signifies the remission of some sin (karma)!
                                            >
                                            > 'Service' to ekult is always emphasized and hyped as being direct
                                            > service to the spirit of god! But Catch22 here as ekult also says the
                                            > true godhead is a Being so detached, it has no interest whether mortals
                                            > service it or not! What a clever ruse to induce 'service' for ekult
                                            > coffers and hide its mlm business model. For those of you who may be
                                            > unfamiliar with how ekult sources funding. In addition to church-plate
                                            > style donations etc., ekult followers (like mlm affiliates) are
                                            > expected to service promotional events and fund from their personal
                                            > wallet promotional materials and products. More importantly, there is
                                            > also a legal understanding that donations, collected at local level,
                                            > belong to ekult HQ, and amounts are uploaded accordingly!
                                            >
                                            > In conclusion, what of any future for ekult â€" there is none â€" it's
                                            > already too late? To my observations what remains are isolated pockets
                                            > of ekult devotees mostly seniors, mostly single females! Grayed-out,
                                            > like inactive pc commands, I note the dynamism and energy, I once
                                            > admired, is long long dead, while larger and ever larger pics of their
                                            > cultic leader casts its shadow over them…
                                            > -Postekcon
                                            >
                                            > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                                            > prometheus_973@ wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > Hello Jonathan,
                                            > > Thanks. I don't know what I said,
                                            > > but thanks anyway. Sometimes
                                            > > I think I should write and thank
                                            > > Klemp for being such a boring
                                            > > wannabe who lacks charisma.
                                            > >
                                            > > BTW-Imagine how many more
                                            > > ECKists there would be, now, if
                                            > > Klemp had even close to the same
                                            > > amount of charisma as Twitchell
                                            > > or Gross had.
                                            > >
                                            > > Plus, it seems that Klemp has
                                            > > been in semi-retirement for
                                            > > a number of years now. This
                                            > > semi-seclusion/retirement
                                            > > became more apparent when
                                            > > he stopped traveling to major
                                            > > ECK Seminars. I'm thinking that
                                            > > he made more "cheesy" health
                                            > > excuses to in order to justify
                                            > > his changes in behaviour and
                                            > > not wanting to travel.
                                            > >
                                            > > Remember the time HK talked
                                            > > about eating too much cheese
                                            > > and this had a negative health
                                            > > effect upon him? He probably
                                            > > got constipated! It was stupid
                                            > > on his part, but isn't that called
                                            > > gluttony too and is one of the
                                            > > Five Passions of the Mind. One
                                            > > would think that a Mahanta
                                            > > (although not perfect) would
                                            > > be higher in consciousness.
                                            > >
                                            > > However, Klemp turns even his
                                            > > own lack of consciousness and
                                            > > common sense around and uses
                                            > > his ill health as an excuse. His
                                            > > illnesses have now become the
                                            > > result of taking on more Karma
                                            > > for his chelas and acting as a karmic
                                            > > "holding tank" so that his Chelas
                                            > > and H.I.s can advance in consciousness
                                            > > and, thereby, in their initiations.
                                            > >
                                            > > How's that worked out for ECKists?
                                            > > In Eckankar today there are even
                                            > > more restrictions/requirements
                                            > > for H.I.s to qualify for the next
                                            > > higher initiation and title (i.e. cleric,
                                            > > initiator, ESA, RESA). And, thanks
                                            > > to Klemp, there are no longer
                                            > > Major ECK Seminars in California
                                            > > and Florida in the colder months
                                            > > of Oct. and March-April.
                                            > >
                                            > > BTW- Don't "Holding Tanks" get
                                            > > emptied so that more can be taken
                                            > > in? It's an on-going process/cycle
                                            > > kind of like using that old "Snow
                                            > > Ball Technique" over and over again.
                                            > >
                                            > > Well, this is all a moot point isn't
                                            > > it. Klemp has no powers... he's a
                                            > > fraud. I can see why he seems meek,
                                            > > at times, since he is aware that it's
                                            > > all a game he's playing and that
                                            > > any day now he'll be discovered
                                            > > for being a fraud. That's why he's
                                            > > not letting ECKists know where
                                            > > all the money is going since he's
                                            > > hide enough away to take care
                                            > > of himself just in case. But, what
                                            > > will that take for more ECKists to
                                            > > see through the facade? I don't know...
                                            > > maybe HK dropping over dead or
                                            > > having a stroke or maybe cancer?
                                            > >
                                            > > Don't get me wrong... I'd never
                                            > > wish that on anyone, but it happens
                                            > > everyday to all kinds of people and
                                            > > even to H.I.s. (of course). Yes, H.I.s
                                            > > are not special, and they get cancer
                                            > > too! Thus, Klemp is not exempt
                                            > > from this happening to him. Look
                                            > > at Twitchell... he didn't predict
                                            > > his heart attack and death! But,
                                            > > according to his own EK scripture
                                            > > (as the LEM/Mahanta) he should
                                            > > have known well in advance as
                                            > > to when he would be translating.
                                            > >
                                            > > However, in "Difficulties Of Being
                                            > > The Living ECK Master" Paul was
                                            > > meeting with his inner circle of
                                            > > H.I.s (in a business meeting) on
                                            > > the day of his death. The notes
                                            > > and comments of that meeting
                                            > > are given here. And, PT was making
                                            > > plans for his future with Eckankar
                                            > > in this meeting. Paul gave no indication
                                            > > (just the opposite) of his impending
                                            > > death on that very same night.
                                            > >
                                            > > This is just one more reason as
                                            > > to why this historical ECK book
                                            > > was not republished by Eckankar
                                            > > (Klemp). It's not like "Difficulties"
                                            > > can't be republished/reprinted
                                            > > since Eckankar has its own printing
                                            > > equipment, does the publishing,
                                            > > and owns PT's copyrights. Thus,
                                            > > this is just one more cover-up
                                            > > showing that Eckankar is simply
                                            > > another false teaching/religion
                                            > > that can't keep it's promises in/for
                                            > > this Here and Now.
                                            > >
                                            > > Prometheus
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > Jonathan wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > Prometheus,
                                            > >
                                            > > Thank you for the comments. I found them to be very helpful and
                                            > very healing.
                                            > >
                                            > > Jonathan
                                            > >
                                            >
                                          • prometheus_973
                                            Hello Postekcon and All, Thanks for the post. Yes, it seems that indulgences have taken on the name of service with Eckankar. However, indulgences were
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Sep 19, 2010
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                                              Hello Postekcon and All,
                                              Thanks for the post. Yes, it seems that
                                              "indulgences" have taken on the name
                                              of "service" with Eckankar. However,
                                              indulgences were strictly sold for money.
                                              Klemp, however, needs a free/volunteer
                                              sales team to sell his wares (and Eckankar's),
                                              while he gets 50% royalties for anything
                                              with his name on it.

                                              But, what do these ECKists get on the
                                              lower planes for/from their lower plane
                                              service? Well, if you're a 7th Initiate and
                                              an ESA and don't want the headache
                                              of being a RESA then you don't get
                                              anything because you've hit the glass
                                              ceiling.

                                              Maybe one can be a Director within
                                              the Satsang but that's a pain with
                                              people calling you all the time and
                                              then having to write reports and plan
                                              events etc. Plus you have to call people
                                              and remind them to write and turn
                                              in their reports to you! Except for
                                              being in the limelight and having
                                              some power it's really not worth it.
                                              But, for some the small amount of
                                              power and notoriety would be worth
                                              it the hassle I guess but it won't get
                                              you anywhere except to be considered
                                              for the RESA's spot when/if it opens
                                              up. The RESA position is a status
                                              position, but for those 7ths who
                                              have been there and done that
                                              there's nothing else except the
                                              hope of getting an 8th. But Klemp
                                              is a tight ass and doesn't want to
                                              share the wealth so kiss that 8th
                                              good-bye. But who knows...
                                              Of course that's another Catch-22.
                                              If an ECKists desires or covenants
                                              that 8th (or whatever) too much
                                              then this is why it won't come.
                                              But if you "surrender" and give-
                                              up your desires then it becomes
                                              more possible, but still improbable.
                                              That's the "carrot" that is dangled
                                              in front of their noses and keeps
                                              them distracted in yet another
                                              manmade religion.

                                              Anyway, if you're not yet an ESA or
                                              a 7th Initiate then you are more motivated
                                              to play the game. Status and power are
                                              the motivators (along with the promises
                                              of all the "higher heavenly" benefits one
                                              can imagine). Some people need religion.
                                              The irony is that ECKists see themselves
                                              "above" all other religions while not
                                              seeing that they have fallen into the
                                              same religious trap.

                                              Prometheus

                                              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "postekcon" <postekcon@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Thank you all for responses...
                                              >
                                              > My reference to the medieval church and the 'indulgences' issue, i.e. money to church in exchange for remission of sin in the hereafter, was a special point for HK himself, which he will fully understand from his Lutheran upbringing...
                                              >
                                              > The indulgences issue was the great trigger point for the Protestant Reformation. The big irony here is LOL; we now see HK and his concocted church repeating history... 'Service' (time/money) to ekult in exchange for the remission of sin/karma!
                                              >
                                              > The lem, due to his high initiation level, claims he is god's rep in all universes. So how come, it is only those who 'service' ekult who are on his fast-track to spiritual enlightenment?
                                              >
                                              > A question, I know, many ekult devotees ask of themselves! Ekult is a religion where service to all life is recommended as a way of life! So why is it this 'service' must be in visible form for ekult, for it to actually count as 'service'?
                                              > -Postekcon
                                              > p.s. in original post, mlm = multi-level-marketing.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Jonathan &
                                              >
                                              > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > I could identify with a number of points in
                                              > > that appraisal. I liked this part especially:
                                              > >
                                              > > "BTW- In the business world, when a product
                                              > > matches the market forces (consciousness)
                                              > > of the day, it is successful; it is never the
                                              > > other way round!"
                                              > >
                                              > > And about the youth, and consciousness,
                                              > > the youth of today have easy access to a
                                              > > lot more information and sources of inform-
                                              > > ation for research purposes, where most of
                                              > > the older generations had the library and a
                                              > > card catalog.
                                              > >
                                              > > I'd often thought about Paul Twitchell in the
                                              > > library, compiling and researching. And now
                                              > > I ask myself: WHY DID IT EVER STOP?
                                              > >
                                              > > Today, with the resources available, people
                                              > > can not only look at materials that Paul T.
                                              > > compiled & researched from, but they can
                                              > > take it further by continuing to compile and
                                              > > research (not forgetting to cite references &
                                              > > credit sources, of course). However, how
                                              > > much does it happen in organized religion?
                                              > > Because, doesn't it challenge the traditional
                                              > > existing dogma whenever a person decides
                                              > > to improve on it? Or, go beyond it? (Not to
                                              > > mention, expose it, give some history of it
                                              > > and show where it REALLY came from.)
                                              > >
                                              > > What are Eckankar's chances of seeing a
                                              > > "REFORMATION"? Personally, I think it's
                                              > > inevitable. The organization will change, or
                                              > > will become another fossil religion. Both of
                                              > > these forces are working antagonistic to
                                              > > one another in the lives of many people to-
                                              > > day, IMO. There is the traditional religious
                                              > > dogma and there is the need to change it.
                                              > > Some want change, and others are afraid
                                              > > of what that will mean to the old cherished
                                              > > dogma.
                                              > >
                                              > > Etznab
                                              > >
                                              > > -----Original Message-----
                                              > > From: postekcon <postekcon@>
                                              > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                              > > Sent: Fri, Sep 17, 2010 2:40 am
                                              > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: All ECKists Should Respond To
                                              > > This In Order To Vent
                                              > >
                                              > >  
                                              > > EKULT, AN APPRAISAL
                                              > >
                                              > > I remember the ekult I joined 1970's. It seemed alive, vibrant, a
                                              > > movement which seemed to know what it was about and where it was going!
                                              > > Under the charismatic and artistic leadership of Darwin Gross
                                              > > membership numbers grew and grew. Because the movement was 'CURRENT'
                                              > > for the consciousness of those times, new members came with minimal
                                              > > recruitment effort!
                                              > >
                                              > > We were excited. Ekult promised us it had the 'tools' to experience
                                              > > greater individualism, freedom and spiritual 'unfoldment', and we
                                              > > believed the hype! We had grown up in the 'Flower Power' era and
                                              > > listening to The Beatles music! We were interested in TM
                                              > > (transcendental meditation), we were interested in all things 'eastern'
                                              > > and wanted to know more. Paul Twitchell too, was in-tune with this
                                              > > consciousness, he was 'CURRENT' for the times. The mail order education
                                              > > system he founded, matched those needs. Ignoring all plagiaristic
                                              > > issues here, the books and discourses he compiled from the works of
                                              > > other authors satisfied us for several years.
                                              > >
                                              > > However consciousness, being fluid, changes, moves on and around and
                                              > > ekult got left behind! Ekult shot itself in the foot, the day it gave
                                              > > leadership to Harold Klemp. Unlike Paul Twitchell he has never been
                                              > > able to tune-in to the consciousness (keep 'current'), produce or even
                                              > > 'compile' works which are dynamic and relevant for the times.
                                              > >
                                              > > BTW- In the business world, when a product matches the market forces
                                              > > (consciousness) of the day, it is successful; it is never the other way
                                              > > round!
                                              > >
                                              > > You might like to observe the consciousness of youth and those who are
                                              > > under 30 years of age. They tend to live life to the extreme to the
                                              > > edge of experience e.g. extreme sports etc. They show NO fear of the
                                              > > creation of either sin or karma, or of the consequences of either,
                                              > > whether now or in a hereafter. This is why a karma-based, savior-style
                                              > > religion like the one HK develops makes no sense to their
                                              > > consciousness. Even their devoted ekult parents have been unable to
                                              > > indoctrinate them in ekult ways once they've left the childhood years.
                                              > > (HK himself included as such a parent, I believe!).
                                              > >
                                              > > Ekult is an organization born out of human arrogance! Consider this!
                                              > > What level of human arrogance is shown, where an earthly organization
                                              > > claims it has commandeered the very spirit of god (energy of the
                                              > > universe); claims it can trademark it in earthly law and then proceed
                                              > > to market it for profit!! This reminds me of a certain medieval
                                              > > church? It too claimed it had commandeered the way of 'salvation' for
                                              > > the gullible populace. That medieval church, with its
                                              > > resa-structure-style network of upwards reporting, soon descended the
                                              > > slippery slope to the 'Inquisition'. History has a habit of repeating
                                              > > itself…
                                              > >
                                              > > Perhaps if ekult had stayed with its original brief and admitted openly
                                              > > to the world, it had been founded as a 'reference' point for the best
                                              > > available philosophies and theories for living life, like a Wikipedia,
                                              > > then it might have remained 'CURRENT'. If only it had cleaned up its
                                              > > act, it could have evolved as an altruistic service and been of benefit
                                              > > to mankind today. Instead, seeing the opportunity for financial gain,
                                              > > HK and owner/s colluded to formulate yet another dead religion to add
                                              > > the world's list. The modus operandi reminds me again of that medieval
                                              > > church which once sold indulgences i.e. money to church in exchange for
                                              > > remission of sins in the hereafter! Similarly ekult devotees can gain
                                              > > prominence (get noticed) by spending lots of own time and money in
                                              > > ekult 'service', and are often rewarded with faster progress through
                                              > > the 'initiation' process. To put this very simply, in ekult, receipt of
                                              > > the next initiation signifies the remission of some sin (karma)!
                                              > >
                                              > > 'Service' to ekult is always emphasized and hyped as being direct
                                              > > service to the spirit of god! But Catch22 here as ekult also says the
                                              > > true godhead is a Being so detached, it has no interest whether mortals
                                              > > service it or not! What a clever ruse to induce 'service' for ekult
                                              > > coffers and hide its mlm business model. For those of you who may be
                                              > > unfamiliar with how ekult sources funding. In addition to church-plate
                                              > > style donations etc., ekult followers (like mlm affiliates) are
                                              > > expected to service promotional events and fund from their personal
                                              > > wallet promotional materials and products. More importantly, there is
                                              > > also a legal understanding that donations, collected at local level,
                                              > > belong to ekult HQ, and amounts are uploaded accordingly!
                                              > >
                                              > > In conclusion, what of any future for ekult â€" there is none â€" it's
                                              > > already too late? To my observations what remains are isolated pockets
                                              > > of ekult devotees mostly seniors, mostly single females! Grayed-out,
                                              > > like inactive pc commands, I note the dynamism and energy, I once
                                              > > admired, is long long dead, while larger and ever larger pics of their
                                              > > cultic leader casts its shadow over them…
                                              > > -Postekcon
                                              > >
                                              > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                                              > > prometheus_973@ wrote:
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Hello Jonathan,
                                              > > > Thanks. I don't know what I said,
                                              > > > but thanks anyway. Sometimes
                                              > > > I think I should write and thank
                                              > > > Klemp for being such a boring
                                              > > > wannabe who lacks charisma.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > BTW-Imagine how many more
                                              > > > ECKists there would be, now, if
                                              > > > Klemp had even close to the same
                                              > > > amount of charisma as Twitchell
                                              > > > or Gross had.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Plus, it seems that Klemp has
                                              > > > been in semi-retirement for
                                              > > > a number of years now. This
                                              > > > semi-seclusion/retirement
                                              > > > became more apparent when
                                              > > > he stopped traveling to major
                                              > > > ECK Seminars. I'm thinking that
                                              > > > he made more "cheesy" health
                                              > > > excuses to in order to justify
                                              > > > his changes in behaviour and
                                              > > > not wanting to travel.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Remember the time HK talked
                                              > > > about eating too much cheese
                                              > > > and this had a negative health
                                              > > > effect upon him? He probably
                                              > > > got constipated! It was stupid
                                              > > > on his part, but isn't that called
                                              > > > gluttony too and is one of the
                                              > > > Five Passions of the Mind. One
                                              > > > would think that a Mahanta
                                              > > > (although not perfect) would
                                              > > > be higher in consciousness.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > However, Klemp turns even his
                                              > > > own lack of consciousness and
                                              > > > common sense around and uses
                                              > > > his ill health as an excuse. His
                                              > > > illnesses have now become the
                                              > > > result of taking on more Karma
                                              > > > for his chelas and acting as a karmic
                                              > > > "holding tank" so that his Chelas
                                              > > > and H.I.s can advance in consciousness
                                              > > > and, thereby, in their initiations.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > How's that worked out for ECKists?
                                              > > > In Eckankar today there are even
                                              > > > more restrictions/requirements
                                              > > > for H.I.s to qualify for the next
                                              > > > higher initiation and title (i.e. cleric,
                                              > > > initiator, ESA, RESA). And, thanks
                                              > > > to Klemp, there are no longer
                                              > > > Major ECK Seminars in California
                                              > > > and Florida in the colder months
                                              > > > of Oct. and March-April.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > BTW- Don't "Holding Tanks" get
                                              > > > emptied so that more can be taken
                                              > > > in? It's an on-going process/cycle
                                              > > > kind of like using that old "Snow
                                              > > > Ball Technique" over and over again.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Well, this is all a moot point isn't
                                              > > > it. Klemp has no powers... he's a
                                              > > > fraud. I can see why he seems meek,
                                              > > > at times, since he is aware that it's
                                              > > > all a game he's playing and that
                                              > > > any day now he'll be discovered
                                              > > > for being a fraud. That's why he's
                                              > > > not letting ECKists know where
                                              > > > all the money is going since he's
                                              > > > hide enough away to take care
                                              > > > of himself just in case. But, what
                                              > > > will that take for more ECKists to
                                              > > > see through the facade? I don't know...
                                              > > > maybe HK dropping over dead or
                                              > > > having a stroke or maybe cancer?
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Don't get me wrong... I'd never
                                              > > > wish that on anyone, but it happens
                                              > > > everyday to all kinds of people and
                                              > > > even to H.I.s. (of course). Yes, H.I.s
                                              > > > are not special, and they get cancer
                                              > > > too! Thus, Klemp is not exempt
                                              > > > from this happening to him. Look
                                              > > > at Twitchell... he didn't predict
                                              > > > his heart attack and death! But,
                                              > > > according to his own EK scripture
                                              > > > (as the LEM/Mahanta) he should
                                              > > > have known well in advance as
                                              > > > to when he would be translating.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > However, in "Difficulties Of Being
                                              > > > The Living ECK Master" Paul was
                                              > > > meeting with his inner circle of
                                              > > > H.I.s (in a business meeting) on
                                              > > > the day of his death. The notes
                                              > > > and comments of that meeting
                                              > > > are given here. And, PT was making
                                              > > > plans for his future with Eckankar
                                              > > > in this meeting. Paul gave no indication
                                              > > > (just the opposite) of his impending
                                              > > > death on that very same night.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > This is just one more reason as
                                              > > > to why this historical ECK book
                                              > > > was not republished by Eckankar
                                              > > > (Klemp). It's not like "Difficulties"
                                              > > > can't be republished/reprinted
                                              > > > since Eckankar has its own printing
                                              > > > equipment, does the publishing,
                                              > > > and owns PT's copyrights. Thus,
                                              > > > this is just one more cover-up
                                              > > > showing that Eckankar is simply
                                              > > > another false teaching/religion
                                              > > > that can't keep it's promises in/for
                                              > > > this Here and Now.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Prometheus
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Jonathan wrote:
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Prometheus,
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Thank you for the comments. I found them to be very helpful and
                                              > > very healing.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Jonathan
                                              > > >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                            • prometheus_973
                                              Hello Postekcon and All, I ve really enjoyed the reading the insights from all of the responses. Yes, I was once a Catholic so I know something about the
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Sep 19, 2010
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Hello Postekcon and All,
                                                I've really enjoyed the reading the insights
                                                from all of the responses. Yes, I was once
                                                a Catholic so I know something about the
                                                Church's sorted past involving indulgences.
                                                It seems that Klemp has modeled his version
                                                of ECKankar after the Lutheran version of
                                                the Catholic Church. After all, it's what he
                                                was taught in seminary school so why not
                                                go with what's familiar.

                                                If Klemp would have just pulled the names
                                                of some recommended H.I.s from a hat,
                                                BUT those who are Not participating within
                                                "service" areas, it would have given the
                                                impression (although false) that, perhaps,
                                                "inner" qualifications were still valid litmus
                                                tests for Initiation. However, I've never
                                                seen a 7th Initiate who was not, at least,
                                                a cleric, initiator, etc!

                                                What ever happened to "The ECK
                                                Contemplative Order" or whatever it was
                                                called?" I think it's briefly mentioned in
                                                "The Holy Fire of ECK" Book One (pg.60?).

                                                Prometheus

                                                postekcon wrote:
                                                Thank you all for responses...

                                                My reference to the medieval church and the 'indulgences' issue, i.e. money to
                                                church in exchange for remission of sin in the hereafter, was a special point
                                                for HK himself, which he will fully understand from his Lutheran upbringing...

                                                The indulgences issue was the great trigger point for the Protestant
                                                Reformation. The big irony here is LOL; we now see HK and his concocted church
                                                repeating history... 'Service' (time/money) to ekult in exchange for the
                                                remission of sin/karma!

                                                The lem, due to his high initiation level, claims he is god's rep in all
                                                universes. So how come, it is only those who 'service' ekult who are on his
                                                fast-track to spiritual enlightenment?

                                                A question, I know, many ekult devotees ask of themselves! Ekult is a religion
                                                where service to all life is recommended as a way of life! So why is it this
                                                'service' must be in visible form for ekult, for it to actually count as
                                                'service'?
                                                -Postekcon
                                                p.s. in original post, mlm = multi-level-marketing.



                                                Jonathan &

                                                etznab@... wrote:
                                                >
                                                > I could identify with a number of points in
                                                > that appraisal. I liked this part especially:
                                                >
                                                > "BTW- In the business world, when a product
                                                > matches the market forces (consciousness)
                                                > of the day, it is successful; it is never the
                                                > other way round!"
                                                >
                                                > And about the youth, and consciousness,
                                                > the youth of today have easy access to a
                                                > lot more information and sources of inform-
                                                > ation for research purposes, where most of
                                                > the older generations had the library and a
                                                > card catalog.
                                                >
                                                > I'd often thought about Paul Twitchell in the
                                                > library, compiling and researching. And now
                                                > I ask myself: WHY DID IT EVER STOP?
                                                >
                                                > Today, with the resources available, people
                                                > can not only look at materials that Paul T.
                                                > compiled & researched from, but they can
                                                > take it further by continuing to compile and
                                                > research (not forgetting to cite references &
                                                > credit sources, of course). However, how
                                                > much does it happen in organized religion?
                                                > Because, doesn't it challenge the traditional
                                                > existing dogma whenever a person decides
                                                > to improve on it? Or, go beyond it? (Not to
                                                > mention, expose it, give some history of it
                                                > and show where it REALLY came from.)
                                                >
                                                > What are Eckankar's chances of seeing a
                                                > "REFORMATION"? Personally, I think it's
                                                > inevitable. The organization will change, or
                                                > will become another fossil religion. Both of
                                                > these forces are working antagonistic to
                                                > one another in the lives of many people to-
                                                > day, IMO. There is the traditional religious
                                                > dogma and there is the need to change it.
                                                > Some want change, and others are afraid
                                                > of what that will mean to the old cherished
                                                > dogma.
                                                >
                                                > Etznab
                                                >
                                                > -----Original Message-----
                                                > From: postekcon
                                                > This In Order To Vent
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > EKULT, AN APPRAISAL
                                                >
                                                > I remember the ekult I joined 1970's. It seemed alive, vibrant, a
                                                > movement which seemed to know what it was about and where it was going!
                                                > Under the charismatic and artistic leadership of Darwin Gross
                                                > membership numbers grew and grew. Because the movement was 'CURRENT'
                                                > for the consciousness of those times, new members came with minimal
                                                > recruitment effort!
                                                >
                                                > We were excited. Ekult promised us it had the 'tools' to experience
                                                > greater individualism, freedom and spiritual 'unfoldment', and we
                                                > believed the hype! We had grown up in the 'Flower Power' era and
                                                > listening to The Beatles music! We were interested in TM
                                                > (transcendental meditation), we were interested in all things 'eastern'
                                                > and wanted to know more. Paul Twitchell too, was in-tune with this
                                                > consciousness, he was 'CURRENT' for the times. The mail order education
                                                > system he founded, matched those needs. Ignoring all plagiaristic
                                                > issues here, the books and discourses he compiled from the works of
                                                > other authors satisfied us for several years.
                                                >
                                                > However consciousness, being fluid, changes, moves on and around and
                                                > ekult got left behind! Ekult shot itself in the foot, the day it gave
                                                > leadership to Harold Klemp. Unlike Paul Twitchell he has never been
                                                > able to tune-in to the consciousness (keep 'current'), produce or even
                                                > 'compile' works which are dynamic and relevant for the times.
                                                >
                                                > BTW- In the business world, when a product matches the market forces
                                                > (consciousness) of the day, it is successful; it is never the other way
                                                > round!
                                                >
                                                > You might like to observe the consciousness of youth and those who are
                                                > under 30 years of age. They tend to live life to the extreme to the
                                                > edge of experience e.g. extreme sports etc. They show NO fear of the
                                                > creation of either sin or karma, or of the consequences of either,
                                                > whether now or in a hereafter. This is why a karma-based, savior-style
                                                > religion like the one HK develops makes no sense to their
                                                > consciousness. Even their devoted ekult parents have been unable to
                                                > indoctrinate them in ekult ways once they've left the childhood years.
                                                > (HK himself included as such a parent, I believe!).
                                                >
                                                > Ekult is an organization born out of human arrogance! Consider this!
                                                > What level of human arrogance is shown, where an earthly organization
                                                > claims it has commandeered the very spirit of god (energy of the
                                                > universe); claims it can trademark it in earthly law and then proceed
                                                > to market it for profit!! This reminds me of a certain medieval
                                                > church? It too claimed it had commandeered the way of 'salvation' for
                                                > the gullible populace. That medieval church, with its
                                                > resa-structure-style network of upwards reporting, soon descended the
                                                > slippery slope to the 'Inquisition'. History has a habit of repeating
                                                > itself.
                                                >
                                                > Perhaps if ekult had stayed with its original brief and admitted openly
                                                > to the world, it had been founded as a 'reference' point for the best
                                                > available philosophies and theories for living life, like a Wikipedia,
                                                > then it might have remained 'CURRENT'. If only it had cleaned up its
                                                > act, it could have evolved as an altruistic service and been of benefit
                                                > to mankind today. Instead, seeing the opportunity for financial gain,
                                                > HK and owner/s colluded to formulate yet another dead religion to add
                                                > the world's list. The modus operandi reminds me again of that medieval
                                                > church which once sold indulgences i.e. money to church in exchange for
                                                > remission of sins in the hereafter! Similarly ekult devotees can gain
                                                > prominence (get noticed) by spending lots of own time and money in
                                                > ekult 'service', and are often rewarded with faster progress through
                                                > the 'initiation' process. To put this very simply, in ekult, receipt of
                                                > the next initiation signifies the remission of some sin (karma)!
                                                >
                                                > 'Service' to ekult is always emphasized and hyped as being direct
                                                > service to the spirit of god! But Catch22 here as ekult also says the
                                                > true godhead is a Being so detached, it has no interest whether mortals
                                                > service it or not! What a clever ruse to induce 'service' for ekult
                                                > coffers and hide its mlm business model. For those of you who may be
                                                > unfamiliar with how ekult sources funding. In addition to church-plate
                                                > style donations etc., ekult followers (like mlm affiliates) are
                                                > expected to service promotional events and fund from their personal
                                                > wallet promotional materials and products. More importantly, there is
                                                > also a legal understanding that donations, collected at local level,
                                                > belong to ekult HQ, and amounts are uploaded accordingly!
                                                >
                                                > In conclusion, what of any future for ekult there is none it's
                                                > already too late? To my observations what remains are isolated pockets
                                                > of ekult devotees mostly seniors, mostly single females! Grayed-out,
                                                > like inactive pc commands, I note the dynamism and energy, I once
                                                > admired, is long long dead, while larger and ever larger pics of their
                                                > cultic leader casts its shadow over them.
                                                > -Postekcon
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