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Re: Worship of Personality

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  • jonathanjohns96
    avonblue1212 wrote: I always found it ironic the way eckankar claims its followers are taught to not worship the personality of the master but instead to
    Message 1 of 6 , Sep 7, 2010
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      "avonblue1212" wrote:

      "I always found it ironic the way eckankar claims its followers are taught to not worship the personality of the master but instead to recognize the inner consciousness of whomever this being happens to be in the physical. Yet with increasing frequency since the Twitch/Gross era, numerous photos of Klemp have been produced and marketed to the ekkie public. Furthermore, as has been noted by others repeatedly, the photo(s) of Klemp are all of the pre-gray/balding/thinner man. I recall numerous conversations and discussions in classes, seminars, literature where eckists (or Klemp himself) would chastise those not able to make the "spiritual" jump from Paul to Darwin or Darwin to Klemp, claiming they were worshipping or "attached" to the man, not recognizing the inner consciousness beyond the physical form."

      Very valid point, avonblue1212.

      I know people may be getting tired of my stories about "what happened at he Eck canter," but this is another topic I brought up there. Sometime in my last year in Eckankar (2008) I was at the local Eck center in the room where the huge photo of Klemp is high up on the wall. I mentioned to some of the Eckists there about how I was genuinely concerned about what I perceived as "worshiping the personality of Harold" and how this was not a good idea, and how Harold was not going to live forever, and how worship of Paul created a big problem with many people leaving Eckankar when he died.

      As you may have already guessed, these comments went over like a lead balloon. People looked at me like I was an alien from outer space or something for saying something so ludicrous. So this conversation with these Eckists was one more thing that made me realize just how delusional these people are, and how they live in their own world. By the way, these people were all 30-year higher initiates.

      From my point of view, this experience was like that old saying "No good deed goes unpunished." I was trying to help Eckankar avert another disaster like when Paul died, but nobody there wanted to hear my "stupid" opinion. They seemed to act like Klemp was never going to die, or perhaps they just couldn't deal with the possibility of that happening. Which tells me that they aren't going to deal with it very well when it does happen.

      By the way, a member of Eckankar who probably knew the facts, once told me that when Paul died, about one-third of the membership left. I would not be surprised to see the same thing happen when Klemp dies.

      And as I read Ecknankar's secret publications like the Mystic World and Hi Newsletter, what I generally saw was Klemp encouraging people to worship him more.

      I may be wrong, but the way things looked to me in December of 2008, I saw Eckankar setting itself up for another disaster like when Twitchell died. I think the reason why Eckankar is encouraging its members to worship Klemp is because they want to keep them stuck in Eckankar.
    • prometheus_973
      Hello Avonblue and ALL, Klemp is a hypocrite. I saw and heard him chastise a woman at a Spiritual Laws Seminar in Toronto once because during a Q&A she
      Message 2 of 6 , Sep 7, 2010
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        Hello Avonblue and ALL,
        Klemp is a hypocrite. I saw and heard him
        chastise a woman at a Spiritual Laws Seminar
        in Toronto once because during a Q&A she
        "adoringly" asked him a question. Klemp
        wanted to make it clear to everyone there
        that he was Not to be worshipped. His words
        to her were cruel and overreactive. I felt
        sorry for her she was crushed. I'm sure
        Klemp saw this as using "tough love," but
        in truth he violated the: "Is it True; Is it
        Necessary; Is it Kind" spiritual rule (of the
        Buddha) that many ECKists attempt to follow.

        Then again, at EK Seminars just watch
        how ECKies hang onto Klemp's every
        word and laugh and giggle at his nervous
        and poorly made attempts at humor.
        ECKists act as though they are in a trance
        or under a spell... from a Black Magician.
        And, Klemp eats it up! He loves the silly
        laughter... all the way to the bank.

        Yes, ECKists still worship him, but it's
        because he is the "Mahanta" who is 10
        Planes of Con. HIGHER than the "God" of:
        Islam; Christianity; Judaism; Hinduism;
        et al because these are 4th Plane religions.
        Klemp states this, of other religions, on
        page 385 of his "Autobiography." PT
        stated it as well in the Shariyat. Thus,
        if "GOD" (Kal, devil, satan) is of 4th Plane
        and HK as LEM is of the 12th and as
        Mahanta of the 14th Plane then why
        wouldn't he be worshipped? BTW- When
        is Klemp going to start to act like a 14th
        Plane GOD? Why does "GOD" need snail-
        mail IROs or "outer" Seminars, etc.?

        Really, Klemp (even as the 12th Plane LEM)
        is not only much more "Higher" and spiritually
        evolved than Muhammad, Jesus, Krishna,
        Buddha, etc. but also more spiritually advanced
        and evolved than the "God" these Prophets,
        and Masters worshipped.

        Yet, Klemp states that he doesn't want to
        be "worshipped" even though he has created
        an "ECK Worship Service" (EWS). However,
        Who/what is "worshipped" at an EWS? It's
        Klemp! He states that he is one with the
        ECK and is the ECK!

        See, Klemp is using Black Magic and Brainwashing
        techniques on ECKists. Is this a Catch-22, or
        some kind of a Paradox? It's really just a manipulation
        and a lie. Then again, in some ways it is a Catch-
        22 for ECKists. Klemp wants to have it both ways,
        but it's the ECKists' getting screwed. This delusional
        thinking is just accepted without question. After
        years and years of overlooking the obvious contradictions
        one finally gives in and "surrenders" their intellect
        and rational thinking. This is the "Leap of Faith"
        that HK has spoken about and it's the same one
        that the 4th Plane religionists must take in order
        to accept those lies as well.

        Prometheus



        avonblue wrote:


        I always found it ironic the way eckankar claims its followers are taught to not
        worship the personality of the master but instead to recognize the inner
        consciousness of whomever this being happens to be in the physical. Yet with
        increasing frequency since the Twitch/Gross era, numerous photos of Klemp have
        been produced and marketed to the ekkie public. Furthermore, as has been noted
        by others repeatedly, the photo(s) of Klemp are all of the
        pre-gray/balding/thinner man. I recall numerous conversations and discussions
        in classes, seminars, literature where eckists (or Klemp himself) would chastise
        those not able to make the "spiritual" jump from Paul to Darwin or Darwin to
        Klemp, claiming they were worshipping or "attached" to the man, not recognizing
        the inner consciousness beyond the physical form.

        In MIchael Largo's new book, "God's Lunatics" he's created an encyclopedia of
        the ridiculous and comical to the horrific and maniacal search for god as
        expressed in every conceivable religious practice throughout the ages (he even
        cites eckankar with Venusian origins). Most interesting is his description of
        the Cult of Personality or Celebrity Worship.

        He claims Khrushchev was the first to use the phrase "cult of personality" in
        reference to his disapproval of Stalin's massive media campaign to elevate
        himself to a god. He tells how Hitler, Mao, Saddam, Kim-Jong-II and others of
        this ilk who "made their omniscient presence a part of daily life through the
        proliferation of their image." These images, he states, were accompanied by the
        message of their goodness, wisdom and power and this influence was impossible to
        escape.

        Does this sound at all familiar? I find it very revealing of the cult ethics
        this organization openly utilizes but never professes to. Having been there I
        know how difficult it is to see the trickery when you're caught in the
        brainwashing and taught over and over to "trust" the "master" or trust your
        inner guidance. Of course the inner guidance eckists believe they have has all
        been expertly crafted from their very first days of participation. How?
        Remember being taught to avoid the writings of other teachers/practices and only
        read ek literature in the beginning as it will "confuse you" and slow your
        progress? If you shun, doubt, disregard the "master" you risk becoming lost in
        the astral worlds... , really? So we're supposed to accept a farm boy from
        Wisconsin was sent here to guide us back - that we have no ability or inherent
        wisdom ourselves? If we don't accept eckankar over any number of crackpot
        philosophies out there we'll have to return again and again until we do? Wow -
        I actually believed some of this stuff!!!

        More interesting but beyond the scope of this post is what neuroscience has
        revealed about the mind and it's functional ability and deficits as well as what
        quantum physics has revealed about the seen and unseen physical universe over
        the last 10 years or so. Seems all the stuff of religion and spirituality is
        emerging science after all. All the inner powers and gifts that eck claimed to
        offer was there all along. Take a little time to investigate even the layman
        books on these subjects - it's fascinating. Of course that's if you can get by
        the other ek credo that looks at the mind, and rational thought for that matter,
        as just a lowly bodily function.
      • prometheus_973
        BTW- It should, also, be pointed out that ECK H.I.s are higher than the God of all religions since this GOD is no higher than the 4th Plane! Now, explain
        Message 3 of 6 , Sep 8, 2010
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          BTW- It should, also, be pointed out that
          ECK H.I.s are "higher" than the "God" of all
          religions since this GOD is no higher than
          the 4th Plane! Now, explain to me why these
          H.I. "Gods" cannot communicate completely
          on the "inner" with the "highest" God... the
          LEM/Mahanta? Why are these ECKist Gods
          so limited? Is ECKankar a Big Fat Lie? Yes!

          Really, think about it. Klemp states in his
          "Autobiography," on page 385, that the
          God of all religions is a 4th (Mental) Plane
          God and most H.I.s are 5th-7th Plane.
          Now, H.I.s should ask themselves, after
          their heads deflate, how do I, as well as,
          Klemp demonstrate this Level of Awareness
          that is "beyond" God's Consciousness?

          Okay, wake up! Here's the Catch-22.
          ECKists cannot experience "God Consciousness,"
          permanently, unless they become 8th Initiates.
          So, the 4th Plane God's Consciousness
          can only be experienced permanently
          when they become 8th initiates! However,
          remember that this 4th Plane God is KAL,
          i.e. the Devil, Satan.

          BTW- Isn't Sugmad also referred to as "God"
          in the EK Teachings? Sure! So, 8ths can experience
          SUGMAD (God) Consciousness on a regular basis?
          I don't think Klemp would allow this interpretation!
          HK's too selfish to put even 8ths on that level.
          It's too close to where he's standing is on the
          mountain.

          FYI- I happened to look up "ECK Masters"
          (12th initiates) in Klemp's 1st Lexicon and
          read that these guys "have reached a state
          of consciousness of relative perfection."
          Yet, isn't this said of our (4th Plane) God?
          Didn't 14th Plane Klemp once say that he
          too "wasn't perfect?" Confusing isn't it?
          That's the whole point! This is why ECKists
          aren't supposed to question the ECK Teachings
          beyond their 2nd initiation, or else one
          will be Black Listed on Initiations and/or
          shunned. ECKists aren't permitted to
          sort out the facts from the myth or from
          the distortions and lies that Twitchell handed
          down to D.G. and to Klemp.

          ECKankar is all make believe and comfortable...
          it's the Easy Way!

          Prometheus


          Hello Avonblue and ALL,
          Klemp is a hypocrite. I saw and heard him
          chastise a woman at a Spiritual Laws Seminar
          in Toronto once because during a Q&A she
          "adoringly" asked him a question. Klemp
          wanted to make it clear to everyone there
          that he was Not to be worshipped. His words
          to her were cruel and overreactive. I felt
          sorry for her she was crushed. I'm sure
          Klemp saw this as using "tough love," but
          in truth he violated the: "Is it True; Is it
          Necessary; Is it Kind" spiritual rule (of the
          Buddha) that many ECKists attempt to follow.

          Then again, at EK Seminars just watch
          how ECKies hang onto Klemp's every
          word and laugh and giggle at his nervous
          and poorly made attempts at humor.
          ECKists act as though they are in a trance
          or under a spell... from a Black Magician.
          And, Klemp eats it up! He loves the silly
          laughter... all the way to the bank.

          Yes, ECKists still worship him, but it's
          because he is the "Mahanta" who is 10
          Planes of Con. HIGHER than the "God" of:
          Islam; Christianity; Judaism; Hinduism;
          et al because these are 4th Plane religions.
          Klemp states this, of other religions, on
          page 385 of his "Autobiography." PT
          stated it as well in the Shariyat. Thus,
          if "GOD" (Kal, devil, satan) is of 4th Plane
          and HK as LEM is of the 12th and as
          Mahanta of the 14th Plane then why
          wouldn't he be worshipped? BTW- When
          is Klemp going to start to act like a 14th
          Plane GOD? Why does "GOD" need snail-
          mail IROs or "outer" Seminars, etc.?

          Really, Klemp (even as the 12th Plane LEM)
          is not only much more "Higher" and spiritually
          evolved than Muhammad, Jesus, Krishna,
          Buddha, etc. but also more spiritually advanced
          and evolved than the "God" these Prophets,
          and Masters worshipped.

          Yet, Klemp states that he doesn't want to
          be "worshipped" even though he has created
          an "ECK Worship Service" (EWS). However,
          Who/what is "worshipped" at an EWS? It's
          Klemp! He states that he is one with the
          ECK and is the ECK!

          See, Klemp is using Black Magic and Brainwashing
          techniques on ECKists. Is this a Catch-22, or
          some kind of a Paradox? It's really just a manipulation
          and a lie. Then again, in some ways it is a Catch-
          22 for ECKists. Klemp wants to have it both ways,
          but it's the ECKists' getting screwed. This delusional
          thinking is just accepted without question. After
          years and years of overlooking the obvious contradictions
          one finally gives in and "surrenders" their intellect
          and rational thinking. This is the "Leap of Faith"
          that HK has spoken about and it's the same one
          that the 4th Plane religionists must take in order
          to accept those lies as well.

          Prometheus



          avonblue wrote:


          I always found it ironic the way eckankar claims its followers are taught to not
          worship the personality of the master but instead to recognize the inner
          consciousness of whomever this being happens to be in the physical. Yet with
          increasing frequency since the Twitch/Gross era, numerous photos of Klemp have
          been produced and marketed to the ekkie public. Furthermore, as has been noted
          by others repeatedly, the photo(s) of Klemp are all of the
          pre-gray/balding/thinner man. I recall numerous conversations and discussions
          in classes, seminars, literature where eckists (or Klemp himself) would chastise
          those not able to make the "spiritual" jump from Paul to Darwin or Darwin to
          Klemp, claiming they were worshipping or "attached" to the man, not recognizing
          the inner consciousness beyond the physical form.

          In MIchael Largo's new book, "God's Lunatics" he's created an encyclopedia of
          the ridiculous and comical to the horrific and maniacal search for god as
          expressed in every conceivable religious practice throughout the ages (he even
          cites eckankar with Venusian origins). Most interesting is his description of
          the Cult of Personality or Celebrity Worship.

          He claims Khrushchev was the first to use the phrase "cult of personality" in
          reference to his disapproval of Stalin's massive media campaign to elevate
          himself to a god. He tells how Hitler, Mao, Saddam, Kim-Jong-II and others of
          this ilk who "made their omniscient presence a part of daily life through the
          proliferation of their image." These images, he states, were accompanied by the
          message of their goodness, wisdom and power and this influence was impossible to
          escape.

          Does this sound at all familiar? I find it very revealing of the cult ethics
          this organization openly utilizes but never professes to. Having been there I
          know how difficult it is to see the trickery when you're caught in the
          brainwashing and taught over and over to "trust" the "master" or trust your
          inner guidance. Of course the inner guidance eckists believe they have has all
          been expertly crafted from their very first days of participation. How?
          Remember being taught to avoid the writings of other teachers/practices and only
          read ek literature in the beginning as it will "confuse you" and slow your
          progress? If you shun, doubt, disregard the "master" you risk becoming lost in
          the astral worlds... , really? So we're supposed to accept a farm boy from
          Wisconsin was sent here to guide us back - that we have no ability or inherent
          wisdom ourselves? If we don't accept eckankar over any number of crackpot
          philosophies out there we'll have to return again and again until we do? Wow -
          I actually believed some of this stuff!!!

          More interesting but beyond the scope of this post is what neuroscience has
          revealed about the mind and it's functional ability and deficits as well as what
          quantum physics has revealed about the seen and unseen physical universe over
          the last 10 years or so. Seems all the stuff of religion and spirituality is
          emerging science after all. All the inner powers and gifts that eck claimed to
          offer was there all along. Take a little time to investigate even the layman
          books on these subjects - it's fascinating. Of course that's if you can get by
          the other ek credo that looks at the mind, and rational thought for that matter,
          as just a lowly bodily function.
        • avonblue1212
          Prometheus said: This is why ECKists aren t supposed to question the ECK Teachings beyond their 2nd initiation, or else one will be Black Listed on Initiations
          Message 4 of 6 , Sep 8, 2010
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            Prometheus said:
            This is why ECKists
            aren't supposed to question the ECK Teachings
            beyond their 2nd initiation, or else one
            will be Black Listed on Initiations and/or
            shunned. ECKists aren't permitted to
            sort out the facts from the myth or from
            the distortions and lies that Twitchell handed
            down to D.G. and to Klemp.

            Exactly - the minute you question or doubt (qualities of a rational mind) you're told you must not be doing your spiritual exercises regularly (in other words you are an inferior spiritual being) - which is just more brainwashing and a continuation of the cycle of deception. Or your told "doubt is good" it allows you to dig deeper and immerse yourself more into the "teachings". I like the concept of free thinking and choice.
            AB

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
            >
            > BTW- It should, also, be pointed out that
            > ECK H.I.s are "higher" than the "God" of all
            > religions since this GOD is no higher than
            > the 4th Plane! Now, explain to me why these
            > H.I. "Gods" cannot communicate completely
            > on the "inner" with the "highest" God... the
            > LEM/Mahanta? Why are these ECKist Gods
            > so limited? Is ECKankar a Big Fat Lie? Yes!
            >
            > Really, think about it. Klemp states in his
            > "Autobiography," on page 385, that the
            > God of all religions is a 4th (Mental) Plane
            > God and most H.I.s are 5th-7th Plane.
            > Now, H.I.s should ask themselves, after
            > their heads deflate, how do I, as well as,
            > Klemp demonstrate this Level of Awareness
            > that is "beyond" God's Consciousness?
            >
            > Okay, wake up! Here's the Catch-22.
            > ECKists cannot experience "God Consciousness,"
            > permanently, unless they become 8th Initiates.
            > So, the 4th Plane God's Consciousness
            > can only be experienced permanently
            > when they become 8th initiates! However,
            > remember that this 4th Plane God is KAL,
            > i.e. the Devil, Satan.
            >
            > BTW- Isn't Sugmad also referred to as "God"
            > in the EK Teachings? Sure! So, 8ths can experience
            > SUGMAD (God) Consciousness on a regular basis?
            > I don't think Klemp would allow this interpretation!
            > HK's too selfish to put even 8ths on that level.
            > It's too close to where he's standing is on the
            > mountain.
            >
            > FYI- I happened to look up "ECK Masters"
            > (12th initiates) in Klemp's 1st Lexicon and
            > read that these guys "have reached a state
            > of consciousness of relative perfection."
            > Yet, isn't this said of our (4th Plane) God?
            > Didn't 14th Plane Klemp once say that he
            > too "wasn't perfect?" Confusing isn't it?
            > That's the whole point! This is why ECKists
            > aren't supposed to question the ECK Teachings
            > beyond their 2nd initiation, or else one
            > will be Black Listed on Initiations and/or
            > shunned. ECKists aren't permitted to
            > sort out the facts from the myth or from
            > the distortions and lies that Twitchell handed
            > down to D.G. and to Klemp.
            >
            > ECKankar is all make believe and comfortable...
            > it's the Easy Way!
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
            >
            > Hello Avonblue and ALL,
            > Klemp is a hypocrite. I saw and heard him
            > chastise a woman at a Spiritual Laws Seminar
            > in Toronto once because during a Q&A she
            > "adoringly" asked him a question. Klemp
            > wanted to make it clear to everyone there
            > that he was Not to be worshipped. His words
            > to her were cruel and overreactive. I felt
            > sorry for her she was crushed. I'm sure
            > Klemp saw this as using "tough love," but
            > in truth he violated the: "Is it True; Is it
            > Necessary; Is it Kind" spiritual rule (of the
            > Buddha) that many ECKists attempt to follow.
            >
            > Then again, at EK Seminars just watch
            > how ECKies hang onto Klemp's every
            > word and laugh and giggle at his nervous
            > and poorly made attempts at humor.
            > ECKists act as though they are in a trance
            > or under a spell... from a Black Magician.
            > And, Klemp eats it up! He loves the silly
            > laughter... all the way to the bank.
            >
            > Yes, ECKists still worship him, but it's
            > because he is the "Mahanta" who is 10
            > Planes of Con. HIGHER than the "God" of:
            > Islam; Christianity; Judaism; Hinduism;
            > et al because these are 4th Plane religions.
            > Klemp states this, of other religions, on
            > page 385 of his "Autobiography." PT
            > stated it as well in the Shariyat. Thus,
            > if "GOD" (Kal, devil, satan) is of 4th Plane
            > and HK as LEM is of the 12th and as
            > Mahanta of the 14th Plane then why
            > wouldn't he be worshipped? BTW- When
            > is Klemp going to start to act like a 14th
            > Plane GOD? Why does "GOD" need snail-
            > mail IROs or "outer" Seminars, etc.?
            >
            > Really, Klemp (even as the 12th Plane LEM)
            > is not only much more "Higher" and spiritually
            > evolved than Muhammad, Jesus, Krishna,
            > Buddha, etc. but also more spiritually advanced
            > and evolved than the "God" these Prophets,
            > and Masters worshipped.
            >
            > Yet, Klemp states that he doesn't want to
            > be "worshipped" even though he has created
            > an "ECK Worship Service" (EWS). However,
            > Who/what is "worshipped" at an EWS? It's
            > Klemp! He states that he is one with the
            > ECK and is the ECK!
            >
            > See, Klemp is using Black Magic and Brainwashing
            > techniques on ECKists. Is this a Catch-22, or
            > some kind of a Paradox? It's really just a manipulation
            > and a lie. Then again, in some ways it is a Catch-
            > 22 for ECKists. Klemp wants to have it both ways,
            > but it's the ECKists' getting screwed. This delusional
            > thinking is just accepted without question. After
            > years and years of overlooking the obvious contradictions
            > one finally gives in and "surrenders" their intellect
            > and rational thinking. This is the "Leap of Faith"
            > that HK has spoken about and it's the same one
            > that the 4th Plane religionists must take in order
            > to accept those lies as well.
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
            >
            >
            > avonblue wrote:
            >
            >
            > I always found it ironic the way eckankar claims its followers are taught to not
            > worship the personality of the master but instead to recognize the inner
            > consciousness of whomever this being happens to be in the physical. Yet with
            > increasing frequency since the Twitch/Gross era, numerous photos of Klemp have
            > been produced and marketed to the ekkie public. Furthermore, as has been noted
            > by others repeatedly, the photo(s) of Klemp are all of the
            > pre-gray/balding/thinner man. I recall numerous conversations and discussions
            > in classes, seminars, literature where eckists (or Klemp himself) would chastise
            > those not able to make the "spiritual" jump from Paul to Darwin or Darwin to
            > Klemp, claiming they were worshipping or "attached" to the man, not recognizing
            > the inner consciousness beyond the physical form.
            >
            > In MIchael Largo's new book, "God's Lunatics" he's created an encyclopedia of
            > the ridiculous and comical to the horrific and maniacal search for god as
            > expressed in every conceivable religious practice throughout the ages (he even
            > cites eckankar with Venusian origins). Most interesting is his description of
            > the Cult of Personality or Celebrity Worship.
            >
            > He claims Khrushchev was the first to use the phrase "cult of personality" in
            > reference to his disapproval of Stalin's massive media campaign to elevate
            > himself to a god. He tells how Hitler, Mao, Saddam, Kim-Jong-II and others of
            > this ilk who "made their omniscient presence a part of daily life through the
            > proliferation of their image." These images, he states, were accompanied by the
            > message of their goodness, wisdom and power and this influence was impossible to
            > escape.
            >
            > Does this sound at all familiar? I find it very revealing of the cult ethics
            > this organization openly utilizes but never professes to. Having been there I
            > know how difficult it is to see the trickery when you're caught in the
            > brainwashing and taught over and over to "trust" the "master" or trust your
            > inner guidance. Of course the inner guidance eckists believe they have has all
            > been expertly crafted from their very first days of participation. How?
            > Remember being taught to avoid the writings of other teachers/practices and only
            > read ek literature in the beginning as it will "confuse you" and slow your
            > progress? If you shun, doubt, disregard the "master" you risk becoming lost in
            > the astral worlds... , really? So we're supposed to accept a farm boy from
            > Wisconsin was sent here to guide us back - that we have no ability or inherent
            > wisdom ourselves? If we don't accept eckankar over any number of crackpot
            > philosophies out there we'll have to return again and again until we do? Wow -
            > I actually believed some of this stuff!!!
            >
            > More interesting but beyond the scope of this post is what neuroscience has
            > revealed about the mind and it's functional ability and deficits as well as what
            > quantum physics has revealed about the seen and unseen physical universe over
            > the last 10 years or so. Seems all the stuff of religion and spirituality is
            > emerging science after all. All the inner powers and gifts that eck claimed to
            > offer was there all along. Take a little time to investigate even the layman
            > books on these subjects - it's fascinating. Of course that's if you can get by
            > the other ek credo that looks at the mind, and rational thought for that matter,
            > as just a lowly bodily function.
            >
          • prometheus_973
            Hello Avonblue and All, Yes, it always amazes me how people, in general, tend to listen to these (male) spokespeople/preachers/clerics of/for God and think
            Message 5 of 6 , Sep 9, 2010
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              Hello Avonblue and All,
              Yes, it always amazes me how people,
              in general, tend to listen to these (male)
              spokespeople/preachers/clerics of/for
              "God" and think that they and their words
              are "Holy." As Soul aren't we all Holy
              and Divine? As Soul aren't we all equal?

              Therefore why not go directly to the
              Source and bypass the hearsay etc.?
              Isn't this the True message that the
              business of religion tends to hide
              with its slight-of-hand tricks. Of course!
              And, ECKankar is no exception.

              However, ECKankar has the Initiation
              game where everyone, except Klemp,
              is striving, hoping, and desiring for
              that next level up. Being "higher" on
              the initiation ladder is supposed to
              equate with having a higher consciousness
              and this means one is closer to God
              and to Knowing everything and being
              Immortal, and free from fears etc.
              But, like all other religions, ECKankar
              must have a male leader. That's not
              very enlightening for a "New Age Religion."
              And the reasons for having only a
              male leader is kind of lame... and silly.

              Anyway, ECKists cannot leave or do
              things on their own because they are
              not yet worthy to do so. ECKists need
              to be 12th Initiates (and that won't happen)
              in order to go their own way and follow
              their own "spiritual" path. It used to be
              at the 7th initiation, but there were
              strings attached to that promise.

              The Truth is ECKists are there now,
              regardless of initiation rank, if they
              would only realize it. But, One has
              to quit religion for the sake of Self.
              This truly is "Being a Law Unto Oneself."
              Soul does not need to rely upon hearsay,
              spokespeople, what others have claimed
              to be the Word of "God."

              Go directly to the Source yourself in
              this Here and Now. This has always
              been the true and only Message given
              to people by God.

              Prometheus



              avonblue wrote:
              Prometheus said:
              This is why ECKists
              aren't supposed to question the ECK Teachings
              beyond their 2nd initiation, or else one
              will be Black Listed on Initiations and/or
              shunned. ECKists aren't permitted to
              sort out the facts from the myth or from
              the distortions and lies that Twitchell handed
              down to D.G. and to Klemp.

              Exactly - the minute you question or doubt (qualities of a rational mind) you're
              told you must not be doing your spiritual exercises regularly (in other words
              you are an inferior spiritual being) - which is just more brainwashing and a
              continuation of the cycle of deception. Or your told "doubt is good" it allows
              you to dig deeper and immerse yourself more into the "teachings". I like the
              concept of free thinking and choice.
              AB

              prometheus wrote:
              >
              > BTW- It should, also, be pointed out that
              > ECK H.I.s are "higher" than the "God" of all
              > religions since this GOD is no higher than
              > the 4th Plane! Now, explain to me why these
              > H.I. "Gods" cannot communicate completely
              > on the "inner" with the "highest" God... the
              > LEM/Mahanta? Why are these ECKist Gods
              > so limited? Is ECKankar a Big Fat Lie? Yes!
              >
              > Really, think about it. Klemp states in his
              > "Autobiography," on page 385, that the
              > God of all religions is a 4th (Mental) Plane
              > God and most H.I.s are 5th-7th Plane.
              > Now, H.I.s should ask themselves, after
              > their heads deflate, how do I, as well as,
              > Klemp demonstrate this Level of Awareness
              > that is "beyond" God's Consciousness?
              >
              > Okay, wake up! Here's the Catch-22.
              > ECKists cannot experience "God Consciousness,"
              > permanently, unless they become 8th Initiates.
              > So, the 4th Plane God's Consciousness
              > can only be experienced permanently
              > when they become 8th initiates! However,
              > remember that this 4th Plane God is KAL,
              > i.e. the Devil, Satan.
              >
              > BTW- Isn't Sugmad also referred to as "God"
              > in the EK Teachings? Sure! So, 8ths can experience
              > SUGMAD (God) Consciousness on a regular basis?
              > I don't think Klemp would allow this interpretation!
              > HK's too selfish to put even 8ths on that level.
              > It's too close to where he's standing is on the
              > mountain.
              >
              > FYI- I happened to look up "ECK Masters"
              > (12th initiates) in Klemp's 1st Lexicon and
              > read that these guys "have reached a state
              > of consciousness of relative perfection."
              > Yet, isn't this said of our (4th Plane) God?
              > Didn't 14th Plane Klemp once say that he
              > too "wasn't perfect?" Confusing isn't it?
              > That's the whole point! This is why ECKists
              > aren't supposed to question the ECK Teachings
              > beyond their 2nd initiation, or else one
              > will be Black Listed on Initiations and/or
              > shunned. ECKists aren't permitted to
              > sort out the facts from the myth or from
              > the distortions and lies that Twitchell handed
              > down to D.G. and to Klemp.
              >
              > ECKankar is all make believe and comfortable...
              > it's the Easy Way!
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
              >
              > Hello Avonblue and ALL,
              > Klemp is a hypocrite. I saw and heard him
              > chastise a woman at a Spiritual Laws Seminar
              > in Toronto once because during a Q&A she
              > "adoringly" asked him a question. Klemp
              > wanted to make it clear to everyone there
              > that he was Not to be worshipped. His words
              > to her were cruel and overreactive. I felt
              > sorry for her she was crushed. I'm sure
              > Klemp saw this as using "tough love," but
              > in truth he violated the: "Is it True; Is it
              > Necessary; Is it Kind" spiritual rule (of the
              > Buddha) that many ECKists attempt to follow.
              >
              > Then again, at EK Seminars just watch
              > how ECKies hang onto Klemp's every
              > word and laugh and giggle at his nervous
              > and poorly made attempts at humor.
              > ECKists act as though they are in a trance
              > or under a spell... from a Black Magician.
              > And, Klemp eats it up! He loves the silly
              > laughter... all the way to the bank.
              >
              > Yes, ECKists still worship him, but it's
              > because he is the "Mahanta" who is 10
              > Planes of Con. HIGHER than the "God" of:
              > Islam; Christianity; Judaism; Hinduism;
              > et al because these are 4th Plane religions.
              > Klemp states this, of other religions, on
              > page 385 of his "Autobiography." PT
              > stated it as well in the Shariyat. Thus,
              > if "GOD" (Kal, devil, satan) is of 4th Plane
              > and HK as LEM is of the 12th and as
              > Mahanta of the 14th Plane then why
              > wouldn't he be worshipped? BTW- When
              > is Klemp going to start to act like a 14th
              > Plane GOD? Why does "GOD" need snail-
              > mail IROs or "outer" Seminars, etc.?
              >
              > Really, Klemp (even as the 12th Plane LEM)
              > is not only much more "Higher" and spiritually
              > evolved than Muhammad, Jesus, Krishna,
              > Buddha, etc. but also more spiritually advanced
              > and evolved than the "God" these Prophets,
              > and Masters worshipped.
              >
              > Yet, Klemp states that he doesn't want to
              > be "worshipped" even though he has created
              > an "ECK Worship Service" (EWS). However,
              > Who/what is "worshipped" at an EWS? It's
              > Klemp! He states that he is one with the
              > ECK and is the ECK!
              >
              > See, Klemp is using Black Magic and Brainwashing
              > techniques on ECKists. Is this a Catch-22, or
              > some kind of a Paradox? It's really just a manipulation
              > and a lie. Then again, in some ways it is a Catch-
              > 22 for ECKists. Klemp wants to have it both ways,
              > but it's the ECKists' getting screwed. This delusional
              > thinking is just accepted without question. After
              > years and years of overlooking the obvious contradictions
              > one finally gives in and "surrenders" their intellect
              > and rational thinking. This is the "Leap of Faith"
              > that HK has spoken about and it's the same one
              > that the 4th Plane religionists must take in order
              > to accept those lies as well.
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
              >
              >
              > avonblue wrote:
              >
              >
              > I always found it ironic the way eckankar claims its followers are taught to
              not
              > worship the personality of the master but instead to recognize the inner
              > consciousness of whomever this being happens to be in the physical. Yet with
              > increasing frequency since the Twitch/Gross era, numerous photos of Klemp have
              > been produced and marketed to the ekkie public. Furthermore, as has been noted
              > by others repeatedly, the photo(s) of Klemp are all of the
              > pre-gray/balding/thinner man. I recall numerous conversations and discussions
              > in classes, seminars, literature where eckists (or Klemp himself) would
              chastise
              > those not able to make the "spiritual" jump from Paul to Darwin or Darwin to
              > Klemp, claiming they were worshipping or "attached" to the man, not
              recognizing
              > the inner consciousness beyond the physical form.
              >
              > In MIchael Largo's new book, "God's Lunatics" he's created an encyclopedia of
              > the ridiculous and comical to the horrific and maniacal search for god as
              > expressed in every conceivable religious practice throughout the ages (he even
              > cites eckankar with Venusian origins). Most interesting is his description of
              > the Cult of Personality or Celebrity Worship.
              >
              > He claims Khrushchev was the first to use the phrase "cult of personality" in
              > reference to his disapproval of Stalin's massive media campaign to elevate
              > himself to a god. He tells how Hitler, Mao, Saddam, Kim-Jong-II and others of
              > this ilk who "made their omniscient presence a part of daily life through the
              > proliferation of their image." These images, he states, were accompanied by
              the
              > message of their goodness, wisdom and power and this influence was impossible
              to
              > escape.
              >
              > Does this sound at all familiar? I find it very revealing of the cult ethics
              > this organization openly utilizes but never professes to. Having been there I
              > know how difficult it is to see the trickery when you're caught in the
              > brainwashing and taught over and over to "trust" the "master" or trust your
              > inner guidance. Of course the inner guidance eckists believe they have has all
              > been expertly crafted from their very first days of participation. How?
              > Remember being taught to avoid the writings of other teachers/practices and
              only
              > read ek literature in the beginning as it will "confuse you" and slow your
              > progress? If you shun, doubt, disregard the "master" you risk becoming lost in
              > the astral worlds... , really? So we're supposed to accept a farm boy from
              > Wisconsin was sent here to guide us back - that we have no ability or inherent
              > wisdom ourselves? If we don't accept eckankar over any number of crackpot
              > philosophies out there we'll have to return again and again until we do? Wow -
              > I actually believed some of this stuff!!!
              >
              > More interesting but beyond the scope of this post is what neuroscience has
              > revealed about the mind and it's functional ability and deficits as well as
              what
              > quantum physics has revealed about the seen and unseen physical universe over
              > the last 10 years or so. Seems all the stuff of religion and spirituality is
              > emerging science after all. All the inner powers and gifts that eck claimed to
              > offer was there all along. Take a little time to investigate even the layman
              > books on these subjects - it's fascinating. Of course that's if you can get by
              > the other ek credo that looks at the mind, and rational thought for that
              matter,
              > as just a lowly bodily function.
              >
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