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Re: EK: Lust vs Discrimination; Path: Lust vs Chastity

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  • jonathanjohns96
    Promethes, Thanks for the two additional messages clarifying things. It s an interesting subject. I d really love to talk to a Hindu or Sikh from India and ask
    Message 1 of 10 , Sep 2, 2010
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      Promethes,

      Thanks for the two additional messages clarifying things. It's an interesting subject.

      I'd really love to talk to a Hindu or Sikh from India and ask them exactly what these gurus mean by "lust" and "chastity." I am getting the intuitive impression that for them, "lust" is ANY sex outside marriage. In other words, people can only have sex during marriage, so any sex that takes place outside marriage obviously results from the fact that they can't control their sex drive. And so they automatically call this "lust."

      I was in TM (Transcendental Meditation) for about two years before joining Eckankar. I read Maharishi's little paperback book. He spent a LOT of time talking about how important it is to "sublimate the sex drive and direct it toward something else." So sublimating the sex drive, or controlling it, is extremely important in Hinduism.

      Somebody told me that married Hindus are expected to stop having sex after they stop having children. I had a Chinese girlfriend who was born in Taiwan, but mostly raised in the USA. She once told me that her parents had intercourse only two times. Incredulous, I asked "How do you know that?" She replied "Once for me, and once for my sister." The point is that I am getting the impression that Hindus almost seem to believe that sex is only for procreation.

      I think all of this may be important to figuring out where Kirpal Singh was "coming from" when he was discussing lust and chastity.

      But you are right in your analysis of Twitchell. His version is not at all the same as Kirpal's version. I think you did a good job documenting what Twitchell did.

      Jonathan



      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hello Jonathan,
      > Yes, Paul used and altered the Passions/Virtues
      > chart in "The Path of the Masters."
      >
      > As a recap here are both versions to compare:
      >
      > From Chapter 6 "The Path of the Masters"
      >
      > "Passions and their Remedies
      > KAM (Lust).................Shil..................Chastity, continence
      > KRODH (Anger)..........Kshama............Forgiveness, tolerance
      > LOBH (Greed).............Santosha..........Contentment
      > MOH (Attachment).....Viveka/Vairag...Discrimination/Detachment
      > AHANKAR (Ego;Pride)..Dinta...............Humility"
      >
      >
      > Passions of Mind and Virtues from HK's 1st ECK Lexicon (pg. 73):
      >
      > KAMA (Lust)................Viveka...............Right Discrimination (pg. 225)
      > KRODHA (Anger).........Kshama.............Forgiveness
      > LOBHA (Greed).........Santosha/Shanti...Peace/Contentment
      > MOHA (Attachment).....Vairag...............Detachment
      > AHANKARA (Vanity)......Dinta................Humility
      >
      > Anyway, these Passions and Virtues are not matched
      > up in HK's 1st Lexicon so that people can't readily
      > see the differences, but one can compare the two
      > lists and see where Twit made some "creative" changes
      > (like adding an "a" to some of these names).
      >
      > And, one can see that Twitchell moved some words
      > around to do his own mix and match. Look at MOH.
      > PT omitted Chastity and moved "Viveka" (Discrimination)
      > up to cover the virtue (opposite) for Lust.
      >
      > BTW- I think that in my prior post I confused the EK
      > Virtue, or remedy, for Lust. I was thinking that it was
      > Contentment but it's Discrimination. See how easy it
      > is to confuse these things when the proper designation
      > or term is not used.
      >
      > ["Sant Mat"............................."ECKankar"
      > Lust - Chastity.....versus....Lust - Discrimination].
      >
      > It does seem to me that the remedy for Lust
      > could be Contentment versus Chastity or
      > Discrimination. Actually, Contentment could
      > be the remedy for many of these Passions of
      > the Mind.
      >
      > Prometheus
      >
      >
      > Jonathan wrote:
      > Prometheus,
      >
      > I have a hard time keeping track of all this stuff. I may have gotten confused.
      > It now seems to me that you were saying that Paul left "chastity" off of some
      > "virtues list" that he had.
      >
      > When I looked back to our February, 2009 discussion I thought you mentioned that
      > chastity was associated with lust in some of the original versions of the five
      > passions lists in India.
      >
      > So I need a clarification on that.
      >
      > Jonathan
      >
    • prometheus_973
      Hello Jonathan, I m not sure if speaking to a Hindu and/or a Sikh would give clarification to your question. That s like asking a Christian a question about
      Message 2 of 10 , Sep 3, 2010
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        Hello Jonathan,
        I'm not sure if speaking to a Hindu and/or a Sikh
        would give clarification to your question. That's
        like asking a "Christian" a question about belief.
        What dogma does the Christian follow? There are
        so many beliefs and each individual interprets it
        differently.

        As I mentioned most "householders," or normal
        people, are expected to practice chastity when
        the woman can no longer produce offspring.
        Thus, there is no sex outside or inside of marriage
        beyond a certain stage of life. Having sex inside
        of marriage when the woman can no longer reproduce
        is seen as the same as having sex outside of the
        marriage... it's still lust and this is an attachment
        to worldly desires... and to a lower chakra (consciousness).

        BTW- I was in TM for six years before joining Eckankar
        and was a Siddha. Although not a Governor I volunteered
        as a "checker" and had duties somewhat to that of an ESA.
        I had to make sure people were meditating properly
        and were comfortable with their mantra. People were
        discouraged from writing them down and would at
        times forget them. It would be two or three syllables
        but the way the mantra was pronounced would naturally
        "change." Actually, the key word was "natural." Sometimes
        I would step out of the room and consult my "list" before
        going back in to help them remember their mantra.

        The kundalini was used to direct energy down
        through the chakras in order do the flying technique,
        and we were instructed not to have sex during the
        "program."

        The "flying technique" was supposed to cause levitation
        and was a physical side effect to Higher Consciousness.
        But, the only "effect" I ever saw was hopping. However,
        when one was sitting in a full lotus position and chanted
        the sutra (with the visualization) the energy channeled
        through the kundalini did produce an electrical charge.
        Of course there was a certain amount of expectation but
        we were simply being open to whatever. The result was
        like touching an electrical wire to a frog's leg and getting
        a muscle response. Therefore, the hopping (on thick high
        density foam mattresses) was effortless and could be
        done, easily, and with minimal exertion for 20 minutes.

        However, TM was a very expensive and distracting ruse
        and with more discipline than Eckankar requires.
        I'm kind of surprised that I took the bait with Eckankar
        after that. But, at least I did remain skeptical and this
        enabled me to be more open minded when Ford's book
        came out.

        Prometheus


        jonathan wrote


        Promethes,

        Thanks for the two additional messages clarifying things. It's an interesting
        subject.

        I'd really love to talk to a Hindu or Sikh from India and ask them exactly what
        these gurus mean by "lust" and "chastity." I am getting the intuitive impression
        that for them, "lust" is ANY sex outside marriage. In other words, people can
        only have sex during marriage, so any sex that takes place outside marriage
        obviously results from the fact that they can't control their sex drive. And so
        they automatically call this "lust."

        I was in TM (Transcendental Meditation) for about two years before joining
        Eckankar. I read Maharishi's little paperback book. He spent a LOT of time
        talking about how important it is to "sublimate the sex drive and direct it
        toward something else." So sublimating the sex drive, or controlling it, is
        extremely important in Hinduism.

        Somebody told me that married Hindus are expected to stop having sex after they
        stop having children. I had a Chinese girlfriend who was born in Taiwan, but
        mostly raised in the USA. She once told me that her parents had intercourse only
        two times. Incredulous, I asked "How do you know that?" She replied "Once for
        me, and once for my sister." The point is that I am getting the impression that
        Hindus almost seem to believe that sex is only for procreation.

        I think all of this may be important to figuring out where Kirpal Singh was
        "coming from" when he was discussing lust and chastity.

        But you are right in your analysis of Twitchell. His version is not at all the
        same as Kirpal's version. I think you did a good job documenting what Twitchell
        did.

        Jonathan
      • prometheus_973
        Hello Jonathan, I reread what I had previously written and thought I should give some clarification on Maharishi s instructions for us to remain chaste during
        Message 3 of 10 , Sep 4, 2010
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          Hello Jonathan,

          I reread what I had previously written
          and thought I should give some
          clarification on Maharishi's instructions
          for us to remain chaste during the
          TM "Program" for Siddha training.
          This 1st Phase of training was an intense
          two week course in the Catskills. Other
          than for this training we, as householders
          or "Citizen" Siddhas, were not instructed
          to practice chastity. Plus, we "couples"
          complied because we wanted the best
          results for the money. This was an expensive
          course ($3,000 each), even, for way back
          in the '70s!

          FYI- The Sutras, like the one used for
          the Flying Technique, came from Patanjali.
          You can find some of these in the 1953
          book "How To Know God" translated
          by Swami Prabhavananda and Christopher
          Isherwood.

          BTW-The Sutra for the TM
          "Flying Technique" is thus:

          But first this-

          The clearing of the mind is
          like pouring pure clear water
          into a bottle of ink. The ink
          (your thoughts) will flow out
          as the water flows in. Eventually
          the ink in the bottle will be
          replaced by clear pure water.

          Sit comfortably in a quiet
          room. Close your eyes and
          quiet your mind. Breathe easily,
          gently, and naturally... don't
          allow any attention to be placed
          upon your thoughts or upon
          your breathing. Let both be
          natural. Gently clear and quiet
          your mind without forcing it.
          Let Go of all the thoughts rushing
          in. Don't hold onto any of them
          even if it seems fun to follow
          them. Let All of these thoughts,
          Ever So Gently, go into the ethers.
          Take your time and relax until
          your mind and breathing settle
          down naturally.

          Now visualize yourself holding
          a ball of cotton. In the bright
          light of day take your fingers
          and pull it apart! Now, see the
          loose fibers gently floating
          in the air and rising upwards.

          As you visualize this think...
          "Light As Cotton Fiber!"

          Feel the spiritual energy in
          the Crown Chakra ready to
          descend downwards through
          the Kundalini! Repeat this!




          prometheus wrote:
          >
          > Hello Jonathan,
          > I'm not sure if speaking to a Hindu and/or a Sikh
          > would give clarification to your question. That's
          > like asking a "Christian" a question about belief.
          > What dogma does the Christian follow? There are
          > so many beliefs and each individual interprets it
          > differently.
          >
          > As I mentioned most "householders," or normal
          > people, are expected to practice chastity when
          > the woman can no longer produce offspring.
          > Thus, there is no sex outside or inside of marriage
          > beyond a certain stage of life. Having sex inside
          > of marriage when the woman can no longer reproduce
          > is seen as the same as having sex outside of the
          > marriage... it's still lust and this is an attachment
          > to worldly desires... and to a lower chakra (consciousness).
          >
          > BTW- I was in TM for six years before joining Eckankar
          > and was a Siddha. Although not a Governor I volunteered
          > as a "checker" and had duties somewhat to that of an ESA.
          > I had to make sure people were meditating properly
          > and were comfortable with their mantra. People were
          > discouraged from writing them down and would at
          > times forget them. It would be two or three syllables
          > but the way the mantra was pronounced would naturally
          > "change." Actually, the key word was "natural." Sometimes
          > I would step out of the room and consult my "list" before
          > going back in to help them remember their mantra.
          >
          > The kundalini was used to direct energy down
          > through the chakras in order do the flying technique,
          > and we were instructed not to have sex during the
          > "program."
          >
          > The "flying technique" was supposed to cause levitation
          > and was a physical side effect to Higher Consciousness.
          > But, the only "effect" I ever saw was hopping. However,
          > when one was sitting in a full lotus position and chanted
          > the sutra (with the visualization) the energy channeled
          > through the kundalini did produce an electrical charge.
          > Of course there was a certain amount of expectation but
          > we were simply being open to whatever. The result was
          > like touching an electrical wire to a frog's leg and getting
          > a muscle response. Therefore, the hopping (on thick high
          > density foam mattresses) was effortless and could be
          > done, easily, and with minimal exertion for 20 minutes.
          >
          > However, TM was a very expensive and distracting ruse
          > and with more discipline than Eckankar requires.
          > I'm kind of surprised that I took the bait with Eckankar
          > after that. But, at least I did remain skeptical and this
          > enabled me to be more open minded when Ford's book
          > came out.
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
          >
          > jonathan wrote
          >
          >
          > Promethes,
          >
          > Thanks for the two additional messages clarifying things. It's an interesting
          > subject.
          >
          > I'd really love to talk to a Hindu or Sikh from India and ask them exactly what
          > these gurus mean by "lust" and "chastity." I am getting the intuitive impression
          > that for them, "lust" is ANY sex outside marriage. In other words, people can
          > only have sex during marriage, so any sex that takes place outside marriage
          > obviously results from the fact that they can't control their sex drive. And so
          > they automatically call this "lust."
          >
          > I was in TM (Transcendental Meditation) for about two years before joining
          > Eckankar. I read Maharishi's little paperback book. He spent a LOT of time
          > talking about how important it is to "sublimate the sex drive and direct it
          > toward something else." So sublimating the sex drive, or controlling it, is
          > extremely important in Hinduism.
          >
          > Somebody told me that married Hindus are expected to stop having sex after they
          > stop having children. I had a Chinese girlfriend who was born in Taiwan, but
          > mostly raised in the USA. She once told me that her parents had intercourse only
          > two times. Incredulous, I asked "How do you know that?" She replied "Once for
          > me, and once for my sister." The point is that I am getting the impression that
          > Hindus almost seem to believe that sex is only for procreation.
          >
          > I think all of this may be important to figuring out where Kirpal Singh was
          > "coming from" when he was discussing lust and chastity.
          >
          > But you are right in your analysis of Twitchell. His version is not at all the
          > same as Kirpal's version. I think you did a good job documenting what Twitchell
          > did.
          >
          > Jonathan
          >
        • jonathanjohns96
          Prometheus, I m not so sure speaking with a Hindu or Sikh is worthwhile either, but mostly because I m not certain that they will tell me the truth. I knew a
          Message 4 of 10 , Sep 8, 2010
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            Prometheus,

            I'm not so sure speaking with a Hindu or Sikh is worthwhile either, but mostly because I'm not certain that they will tell me the truth.

            I knew a Brahmin lady from India. Over a year ago she told me that the caste system was gone in India. Somebody who knows her very well recently told me that her daughter was preparing to go to college. And this lady spent a tremendous amount of time researching all the colleges she was interested in to verify that there were a lot of Brahmins attending the school? I suspected that it had to do with meeting possible marriage partners, but this person told me that the mother (my acquaintance) wanted to make sure that there were enough Brahmin girls there so her daughter could have enough Brahmin girlfriends.

            So, in essence, this lady I knew told me the caste system was dead in India, but meanwhile, she is practicing it in the Unites States.

            It seems like I used to have a really high opinions of all Indians, but lately I have been coming to realize that they are just like everybody else, a few great ones, and a whole bunch of average ones, including many who have no problem with being hypocritical.

            Jonathan
          • prometheus_973
            Hello Jonathan and All, I agree that it s hard to get the real truth from any religionist... Eckankar included. Yes, the caste system was outlawed in India
            Message 5 of 10 , Sep 8, 2010
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              Hello Jonathan and All,
              I agree that it's hard to get the real truth
              from any religionist... Eckankar included.
              Yes, the caste system was "outlawed" in
              India (for show) but it's functioning quite
              well.

              Eckankar's Caste System equates to: Level
              of Initiation.

              Let's face it, a lower initiate's opinion or
              even their "spiritual" experiences (especially
              those coming from 1st, 2nd or 3rd initiates)
              mean little to most Higher Initiates. These
              "experiences" may be worthy enough to
              place into an ECK pub for publicity purposes,
              but have no real value otherwise, except
              to other Lower Initiates (wannabes). In truth,
              these Lower Initiates are disrespected by
              H.I.s because their Initiation Level is a "Yardstick"
              of their level of inner experience and consciousness.

              Yes, some Lower Initiates may have good
              business and communication skills, but this
              is not the same as having a higher "spiritual"
              consciousness. On the other hand these Eckists
              who do have unique worldly skills are usually
              those who get initiated faster and higher.
              Thus, "professionals," in Eckankar, get promoted
              faster and higher than those who don't have
              the "credentials." This in and of itself shows
              a "caste consciousness." Professionals are
              "fast tracked" on Initiations, but almost all
              will hit the glass ceiling of the 7th Initiation.


              BTW- Klemp has stated, in the past, that some
              Lower Initiates are "higher" than some Higher
              Initiates. However, if this were true then why
              did these "Higher" Initiates get promoted in
              the first place and/or why have they kept their
              Higher Initiation rank?

              Plus, why weren't these "Lower" Initiates, with
              a H.I. level of consciousness as HK claimed,
              promoted to the 5th or 6th Initiation? I knew
              one or two and they were never promoted.
              Klemp's words are useless because the proof
              is in the pudding... so to speak. If someone
              coming into ECKankar really does have a level
              of spiritual consciousness equating to the 5th,
              6th, or 7th Plane then why aren't they promoted
              to at least the 5th? And, why aren't some H.I.s
              demoted if they don't demonstrate, via behaviour,
              a Higher "Spiritual" Consciousness?

              Well, it's obvious why it doesn't make sense.
              Klemp is a fraud! He has no idea of what is
              going on with anyone unless someone sends
              him an email, gives him or Joan a phone call,
              or he receives a snail-mail letter. Of course
              he does hear about it in person at times from
              Board members, or from RESAs when there's
              a big RESA meeting.

              However, much of this communication HK has
              (involving other ECKists) is merely hearsay and
              is not verified. The big point is, there's no "Inner"
              communication that takes place with Klemp (the
              LEM/Mahanta) and with his Higher Initiates. A
              few ECKists having an occasional dream, etc.
              with Klemp showing up doesn't really amount
              to having "inner communication." This is just
              another use of the mind's imagination giving
              a religious follower what they have expected
              and desired to experience. All religions use
              these "experiences"or miracles or whatever as
              "proof" that their religion is better than another
              or all others!

              I'm rather surprised that many ECKists have
              limited curiosity as to the beginnings of Eckankar
              and don't see the correlations with other religions
              like Sant Mat or with secret visitations and miracles.
              Apparently, most ECKistss threw their memories
              of this out with the bath water, and don't read
              anything outside of the EK teachings due to an
              innate fear of learning the Truth. Most people
              need to feel secure and special and this requires
              a personal "God" and Eckankar is no exception.

              Prometheus






              Jonathan wrote:
              Prometheus,

              I'm not so sure speaking with a Hindu or Sikh is worthwhile either, but mostly
              because I'm not certain that they will tell me the truth.

              I knew a Brahmin lady from India. Over a year ago she told me that the caste
              system was gone in India. Somebody who knows her very well recently told me that
              her daughter was preparing to go to college. And this lady spent a tremendous
              amount of time researching all the colleges she was interested in to verify that
              there were a lot of Brahmins attending the school? I suspected that it had to do
              with meeting possible marriage partners, but this person told me that the mother
              (my acquaintance) wanted to make sure that there were enough Brahmin girls there
              so her daughter could have enough Brahmin girlfriends.

              So, in essence, this lady I knew told me the caste system was dead in India, but
              meanwhile, she is practicing it in the Unites States.

              It seems like I used to have a really high opinions of all Indians, but lately I
              have been coming to realize that they are just like everybody else, a few great
              ones, and a whole bunch of average ones, including many who have no problem with
              being hypocritical.

              Jonathan
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