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EK: Lust vs Discrimination; Path: Lust vs Chastity

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  • prometheus_973
    Hello Jonathan, Yes, Paul used and altered the Passions/Virtues chart in The Path of the Masters. As a recap here are both versions to compare: From Chapter
    Message 1 of 10 , Aug 31, 2010
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      Hello Jonathan,
      Yes, Paul used and altered the Passions/Virtues
      chart in "The Path of the Masters."

      As a recap here are both versions to compare:

      From Chapter 6 "The Path of the Masters"

      "Passions and their Remedies
      KAM (Lust).................Shil..................Chastity, continence
      KRODH (Anger)..........Kshama............Forgiveness, tolerance
      LOBH (Greed).............Santosha..........Contentment
      MOH (Attachment).....Viveka/Vairag...Discrimination/Detachment
      AHANKAR (Ego;Pride)..Dinta...............Humility"


      Passions of Mind and Virtues from HK's 1st ECK Lexicon (pg. 73):

      KAMA (Lust)................Viveka...............Right Discrimination (pg. 225)
      KRODHA (Anger).........Kshama.............Forgiveness
      LOBHA (Greed).........Santosha/Shanti...Peace/Contentment
      MOHA (Attachment).....Vairag...............Detachment
      AHANKARA (Vanity)......Dinta................Humility

      Anyway, these Passions and Virtues are not matched
      up in HK's 1st Lexicon so that people can't readily
      see the differences, but one can compare the two
      lists and see where Twit made some "creative" changes
      (like adding an "a" to some of these names).

      And, one can see that Twitchell moved some words
      around to do his own mix and match. Look at MOH.
      PT omitted Chastity and moved "Viveka" (Discrimination)
      up to cover the virtue (opposite) for Lust.

      BTW- I think that in my prior post I confused the EK
      Virtue, or remedy, for Lust. I was thinking that it was
      Contentment but it's Discrimination. See how easy it
      is to confuse these things when the proper designation
      or term is not used.

      ["Sant Mat"............................."ECKankar"
      Lust - Chastity.....versus....Lust - Discrimination].

      It does seem to me that the remedy for Lust
      could be Contentment versus Chastity or
      Discrimination. Actually, Contentment could
      be the remedy for many of these Passions of
      the Mind.

      Prometheus


      Jonathan wrote:
      Prometheus,

      I have a hard time keeping track of all this stuff. I may have gotten confused.
      It now seems to me that you were saying that Paul left "chastity" off of some
      "virtues list" that he had.

      When I looked back to our February, 2009 discussion I thought you mentioned that
      chastity was associated with lust in some of the original versions of the five
      passions lists in India.

      So I need a clarification on that.

      Jonathan
    • jonathanjohns96
      Promethes, Thanks for the two additional messages clarifying things. It s an interesting subject. I d really love to talk to a Hindu or Sikh from India and ask
      Message 2 of 10 , Sep 2, 2010
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        Promethes,

        Thanks for the two additional messages clarifying things. It's an interesting subject.

        I'd really love to talk to a Hindu or Sikh from India and ask them exactly what these gurus mean by "lust" and "chastity." I am getting the intuitive impression that for them, "lust" is ANY sex outside marriage. In other words, people can only have sex during marriage, so any sex that takes place outside marriage obviously results from the fact that they can't control their sex drive. And so they automatically call this "lust."

        I was in TM (Transcendental Meditation) for about two years before joining Eckankar. I read Maharishi's little paperback book. He spent a LOT of time talking about how important it is to "sublimate the sex drive and direct it toward something else." So sublimating the sex drive, or controlling it, is extremely important in Hinduism.

        Somebody told me that married Hindus are expected to stop having sex after they stop having children. I had a Chinese girlfriend who was born in Taiwan, but mostly raised in the USA. She once told me that her parents had intercourse only two times. Incredulous, I asked "How do you know that?" She replied "Once for me, and once for my sister." The point is that I am getting the impression that Hindus almost seem to believe that sex is only for procreation.

        I think all of this may be important to figuring out where Kirpal Singh was "coming from" when he was discussing lust and chastity.

        But you are right in your analysis of Twitchell. His version is not at all the same as Kirpal's version. I think you did a good job documenting what Twitchell did.

        Jonathan



        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello Jonathan,
        > Yes, Paul used and altered the Passions/Virtues
        > chart in "The Path of the Masters."
        >
        > As a recap here are both versions to compare:
        >
        > From Chapter 6 "The Path of the Masters"
        >
        > "Passions and their Remedies
        > KAM (Lust).................Shil..................Chastity, continence
        > KRODH (Anger)..........Kshama............Forgiveness, tolerance
        > LOBH (Greed).............Santosha..........Contentment
        > MOH (Attachment).....Viveka/Vairag...Discrimination/Detachment
        > AHANKAR (Ego;Pride)..Dinta...............Humility"
        >
        >
        > Passions of Mind and Virtues from HK's 1st ECK Lexicon (pg. 73):
        >
        > KAMA (Lust)................Viveka...............Right Discrimination (pg. 225)
        > KRODHA (Anger).........Kshama.............Forgiveness
        > LOBHA (Greed).........Santosha/Shanti...Peace/Contentment
        > MOHA (Attachment).....Vairag...............Detachment
        > AHANKARA (Vanity)......Dinta................Humility
        >
        > Anyway, these Passions and Virtues are not matched
        > up in HK's 1st Lexicon so that people can't readily
        > see the differences, but one can compare the two
        > lists and see where Twit made some "creative" changes
        > (like adding an "a" to some of these names).
        >
        > And, one can see that Twitchell moved some words
        > around to do his own mix and match. Look at MOH.
        > PT omitted Chastity and moved "Viveka" (Discrimination)
        > up to cover the virtue (opposite) for Lust.
        >
        > BTW- I think that in my prior post I confused the EK
        > Virtue, or remedy, for Lust. I was thinking that it was
        > Contentment but it's Discrimination. See how easy it
        > is to confuse these things when the proper designation
        > or term is not used.
        >
        > ["Sant Mat"............................."ECKankar"
        > Lust - Chastity.....versus....Lust - Discrimination].
        >
        > It does seem to me that the remedy for Lust
        > could be Contentment versus Chastity or
        > Discrimination. Actually, Contentment could
        > be the remedy for many of these Passions of
        > the Mind.
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
        >
        > Jonathan wrote:
        > Prometheus,
        >
        > I have a hard time keeping track of all this stuff. I may have gotten confused.
        > It now seems to me that you were saying that Paul left "chastity" off of some
        > "virtues list" that he had.
        >
        > When I looked back to our February, 2009 discussion I thought you mentioned that
        > chastity was associated with lust in some of the original versions of the five
        > passions lists in India.
        >
        > So I need a clarification on that.
        >
        > Jonathan
        >
      • prometheus_973
        Hello Jonathan, I m not sure if speaking to a Hindu and/or a Sikh would give clarification to your question. That s like asking a Christian a question about
        Message 3 of 10 , Sep 3, 2010
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          Hello Jonathan,
          I'm not sure if speaking to a Hindu and/or a Sikh
          would give clarification to your question. That's
          like asking a "Christian" a question about belief.
          What dogma does the Christian follow? There are
          so many beliefs and each individual interprets it
          differently.

          As I mentioned most "householders," or normal
          people, are expected to practice chastity when
          the woman can no longer produce offspring.
          Thus, there is no sex outside or inside of marriage
          beyond a certain stage of life. Having sex inside
          of marriage when the woman can no longer reproduce
          is seen as the same as having sex outside of the
          marriage... it's still lust and this is an attachment
          to worldly desires... and to a lower chakra (consciousness).

          BTW- I was in TM for six years before joining Eckankar
          and was a Siddha. Although not a Governor I volunteered
          as a "checker" and had duties somewhat to that of an ESA.
          I had to make sure people were meditating properly
          and were comfortable with their mantra. People were
          discouraged from writing them down and would at
          times forget them. It would be two or three syllables
          but the way the mantra was pronounced would naturally
          "change." Actually, the key word was "natural." Sometimes
          I would step out of the room and consult my "list" before
          going back in to help them remember their mantra.

          The kundalini was used to direct energy down
          through the chakras in order do the flying technique,
          and we were instructed not to have sex during the
          "program."

          The "flying technique" was supposed to cause levitation
          and was a physical side effect to Higher Consciousness.
          But, the only "effect" I ever saw was hopping. However,
          when one was sitting in a full lotus position and chanted
          the sutra (with the visualization) the energy channeled
          through the kundalini did produce an electrical charge.
          Of course there was a certain amount of expectation but
          we were simply being open to whatever. The result was
          like touching an electrical wire to a frog's leg and getting
          a muscle response. Therefore, the hopping (on thick high
          density foam mattresses) was effortless and could be
          done, easily, and with minimal exertion for 20 minutes.

          However, TM was a very expensive and distracting ruse
          and with more discipline than Eckankar requires.
          I'm kind of surprised that I took the bait with Eckankar
          after that. But, at least I did remain skeptical and this
          enabled me to be more open minded when Ford's book
          came out.

          Prometheus


          jonathan wrote


          Promethes,

          Thanks for the two additional messages clarifying things. It's an interesting
          subject.

          I'd really love to talk to a Hindu or Sikh from India and ask them exactly what
          these gurus mean by "lust" and "chastity." I am getting the intuitive impression
          that for them, "lust" is ANY sex outside marriage. In other words, people can
          only have sex during marriage, so any sex that takes place outside marriage
          obviously results from the fact that they can't control their sex drive. And so
          they automatically call this "lust."

          I was in TM (Transcendental Meditation) for about two years before joining
          Eckankar. I read Maharishi's little paperback book. He spent a LOT of time
          talking about how important it is to "sublimate the sex drive and direct it
          toward something else." So sublimating the sex drive, or controlling it, is
          extremely important in Hinduism.

          Somebody told me that married Hindus are expected to stop having sex after they
          stop having children. I had a Chinese girlfriend who was born in Taiwan, but
          mostly raised in the USA. She once told me that her parents had intercourse only
          two times. Incredulous, I asked "How do you know that?" She replied "Once for
          me, and once for my sister." The point is that I am getting the impression that
          Hindus almost seem to believe that sex is only for procreation.

          I think all of this may be important to figuring out where Kirpal Singh was
          "coming from" when he was discussing lust and chastity.

          But you are right in your analysis of Twitchell. His version is not at all the
          same as Kirpal's version. I think you did a good job documenting what Twitchell
          did.

          Jonathan
        • prometheus_973
          Hello Jonathan, I reread what I had previously written and thought I should give some clarification on Maharishi s instructions for us to remain chaste during
          Message 4 of 10 , Sep 4, 2010
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            Hello Jonathan,

            I reread what I had previously written
            and thought I should give some
            clarification on Maharishi's instructions
            for us to remain chaste during the
            TM "Program" for Siddha training.
            This 1st Phase of training was an intense
            two week course in the Catskills. Other
            than for this training we, as householders
            or "Citizen" Siddhas, were not instructed
            to practice chastity. Plus, we "couples"
            complied because we wanted the best
            results for the money. This was an expensive
            course ($3,000 each), even, for way back
            in the '70s!

            FYI- The Sutras, like the one used for
            the Flying Technique, came from Patanjali.
            You can find some of these in the 1953
            book "How To Know God" translated
            by Swami Prabhavananda and Christopher
            Isherwood.

            BTW-The Sutra for the TM
            "Flying Technique" is thus:

            But first this-

            The clearing of the mind is
            like pouring pure clear water
            into a bottle of ink. The ink
            (your thoughts) will flow out
            as the water flows in. Eventually
            the ink in the bottle will be
            replaced by clear pure water.

            Sit comfortably in a quiet
            room. Close your eyes and
            quiet your mind. Breathe easily,
            gently, and naturally... don't
            allow any attention to be placed
            upon your thoughts or upon
            your breathing. Let both be
            natural. Gently clear and quiet
            your mind without forcing it.
            Let Go of all the thoughts rushing
            in. Don't hold onto any of them
            even if it seems fun to follow
            them. Let All of these thoughts,
            Ever So Gently, go into the ethers.
            Take your time and relax until
            your mind and breathing settle
            down naturally.

            Now visualize yourself holding
            a ball of cotton. In the bright
            light of day take your fingers
            and pull it apart! Now, see the
            loose fibers gently floating
            in the air and rising upwards.

            As you visualize this think...
            "Light As Cotton Fiber!"

            Feel the spiritual energy in
            the Crown Chakra ready to
            descend downwards through
            the Kundalini! Repeat this!




            prometheus wrote:
            >
            > Hello Jonathan,
            > I'm not sure if speaking to a Hindu and/or a Sikh
            > would give clarification to your question. That's
            > like asking a "Christian" a question about belief.
            > What dogma does the Christian follow? There are
            > so many beliefs and each individual interprets it
            > differently.
            >
            > As I mentioned most "householders," or normal
            > people, are expected to practice chastity when
            > the woman can no longer produce offspring.
            > Thus, there is no sex outside or inside of marriage
            > beyond a certain stage of life. Having sex inside
            > of marriage when the woman can no longer reproduce
            > is seen as the same as having sex outside of the
            > marriage... it's still lust and this is an attachment
            > to worldly desires... and to a lower chakra (consciousness).
            >
            > BTW- I was in TM for six years before joining Eckankar
            > and was a Siddha. Although not a Governor I volunteered
            > as a "checker" and had duties somewhat to that of an ESA.
            > I had to make sure people were meditating properly
            > and were comfortable with their mantra. People were
            > discouraged from writing them down and would at
            > times forget them. It would be two or three syllables
            > but the way the mantra was pronounced would naturally
            > "change." Actually, the key word was "natural." Sometimes
            > I would step out of the room and consult my "list" before
            > going back in to help them remember their mantra.
            >
            > The kundalini was used to direct energy down
            > through the chakras in order do the flying technique,
            > and we were instructed not to have sex during the
            > "program."
            >
            > The "flying technique" was supposed to cause levitation
            > and was a physical side effect to Higher Consciousness.
            > But, the only "effect" I ever saw was hopping. However,
            > when one was sitting in a full lotus position and chanted
            > the sutra (with the visualization) the energy channeled
            > through the kundalini did produce an electrical charge.
            > Of course there was a certain amount of expectation but
            > we were simply being open to whatever. The result was
            > like touching an electrical wire to a frog's leg and getting
            > a muscle response. Therefore, the hopping (on thick high
            > density foam mattresses) was effortless and could be
            > done, easily, and with minimal exertion for 20 minutes.
            >
            > However, TM was a very expensive and distracting ruse
            > and with more discipline than Eckankar requires.
            > I'm kind of surprised that I took the bait with Eckankar
            > after that. But, at least I did remain skeptical and this
            > enabled me to be more open minded when Ford's book
            > came out.
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
            >
            > jonathan wrote
            >
            >
            > Promethes,
            >
            > Thanks for the two additional messages clarifying things. It's an interesting
            > subject.
            >
            > I'd really love to talk to a Hindu or Sikh from India and ask them exactly what
            > these gurus mean by "lust" and "chastity." I am getting the intuitive impression
            > that for them, "lust" is ANY sex outside marriage. In other words, people can
            > only have sex during marriage, so any sex that takes place outside marriage
            > obviously results from the fact that they can't control their sex drive. And so
            > they automatically call this "lust."
            >
            > I was in TM (Transcendental Meditation) for about two years before joining
            > Eckankar. I read Maharishi's little paperback book. He spent a LOT of time
            > talking about how important it is to "sublimate the sex drive and direct it
            > toward something else." So sublimating the sex drive, or controlling it, is
            > extremely important in Hinduism.
            >
            > Somebody told me that married Hindus are expected to stop having sex after they
            > stop having children. I had a Chinese girlfriend who was born in Taiwan, but
            > mostly raised in the USA. She once told me that her parents had intercourse only
            > two times. Incredulous, I asked "How do you know that?" She replied "Once for
            > me, and once for my sister." The point is that I am getting the impression that
            > Hindus almost seem to believe that sex is only for procreation.
            >
            > I think all of this may be important to figuring out where Kirpal Singh was
            > "coming from" when he was discussing lust and chastity.
            >
            > But you are right in your analysis of Twitchell. His version is not at all the
            > same as Kirpal's version. I think you did a good job documenting what Twitchell
            > did.
            >
            > Jonathan
            >
          • jonathanjohns96
            Prometheus, I m not so sure speaking with a Hindu or Sikh is worthwhile either, but mostly because I m not certain that they will tell me the truth. I knew a
            Message 5 of 10 , Sep 8, 2010
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              Prometheus,

              I'm not so sure speaking with a Hindu or Sikh is worthwhile either, but mostly because I'm not certain that they will tell me the truth.

              I knew a Brahmin lady from India. Over a year ago she told me that the caste system was gone in India. Somebody who knows her very well recently told me that her daughter was preparing to go to college. And this lady spent a tremendous amount of time researching all the colleges she was interested in to verify that there were a lot of Brahmins attending the school? I suspected that it had to do with meeting possible marriage partners, but this person told me that the mother (my acquaintance) wanted to make sure that there were enough Brahmin girls there so her daughter could have enough Brahmin girlfriends.

              So, in essence, this lady I knew told me the caste system was dead in India, but meanwhile, she is practicing it in the Unites States.

              It seems like I used to have a really high opinions of all Indians, but lately I have been coming to realize that they are just like everybody else, a few great ones, and a whole bunch of average ones, including many who have no problem with being hypocritical.

              Jonathan
            • prometheus_973
              Hello Jonathan and All, I agree that it s hard to get the real truth from any religionist... Eckankar included. Yes, the caste system was outlawed in India
              Message 6 of 10 , Sep 8, 2010
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                Hello Jonathan and All,
                I agree that it's hard to get the real truth
                from any religionist... Eckankar included.
                Yes, the caste system was "outlawed" in
                India (for show) but it's functioning quite
                well.

                Eckankar's Caste System equates to: Level
                of Initiation.

                Let's face it, a lower initiate's opinion or
                even their "spiritual" experiences (especially
                those coming from 1st, 2nd or 3rd initiates)
                mean little to most Higher Initiates. These
                "experiences" may be worthy enough to
                place into an ECK pub for publicity purposes,
                but have no real value otherwise, except
                to other Lower Initiates (wannabes). In truth,
                these Lower Initiates are disrespected by
                H.I.s because their Initiation Level is a "Yardstick"
                of their level of inner experience and consciousness.

                Yes, some Lower Initiates may have good
                business and communication skills, but this
                is not the same as having a higher "spiritual"
                consciousness. On the other hand these Eckists
                who do have unique worldly skills are usually
                those who get initiated faster and higher.
                Thus, "professionals," in Eckankar, get promoted
                faster and higher than those who don't have
                the "credentials." This in and of itself shows
                a "caste consciousness." Professionals are
                "fast tracked" on Initiations, but almost all
                will hit the glass ceiling of the 7th Initiation.


                BTW- Klemp has stated, in the past, that some
                Lower Initiates are "higher" than some Higher
                Initiates. However, if this were true then why
                did these "Higher" Initiates get promoted in
                the first place and/or why have they kept their
                Higher Initiation rank?

                Plus, why weren't these "Lower" Initiates, with
                a H.I. level of consciousness as HK claimed,
                promoted to the 5th or 6th Initiation? I knew
                one or two and they were never promoted.
                Klemp's words are useless because the proof
                is in the pudding... so to speak. If someone
                coming into ECKankar really does have a level
                of spiritual consciousness equating to the 5th,
                6th, or 7th Plane then why aren't they promoted
                to at least the 5th? And, why aren't some H.I.s
                demoted if they don't demonstrate, via behaviour,
                a Higher "Spiritual" Consciousness?

                Well, it's obvious why it doesn't make sense.
                Klemp is a fraud! He has no idea of what is
                going on with anyone unless someone sends
                him an email, gives him or Joan a phone call,
                or he receives a snail-mail letter. Of course
                he does hear about it in person at times from
                Board members, or from RESAs when there's
                a big RESA meeting.

                However, much of this communication HK has
                (involving other ECKists) is merely hearsay and
                is not verified. The big point is, there's no "Inner"
                communication that takes place with Klemp (the
                LEM/Mahanta) and with his Higher Initiates. A
                few ECKists having an occasional dream, etc.
                with Klemp showing up doesn't really amount
                to having "inner communication." This is just
                another use of the mind's imagination giving
                a religious follower what they have expected
                and desired to experience. All religions use
                these "experiences"or miracles or whatever as
                "proof" that their religion is better than another
                or all others!

                I'm rather surprised that many ECKists have
                limited curiosity as to the beginnings of Eckankar
                and don't see the correlations with other religions
                like Sant Mat or with secret visitations and miracles.
                Apparently, most ECKistss threw their memories
                of this out with the bath water, and don't read
                anything outside of the EK teachings due to an
                innate fear of learning the Truth. Most people
                need to feel secure and special and this requires
                a personal "God" and Eckankar is no exception.

                Prometheus






                Jonathan wrote:
                Prometheus,

                I'm not so sure speaking with a Hindu or Sikh is worthwhile either, but mostly
                because I'm not certain that they will tell me the truth.

                I knew a Brahmin lady from India. Over a year ago she told me that the caste
                system was gone in India. Somebody who knows her very well recently told me that
                her daughter was preparing to go to college. And this lady spent a tremendous
                amount of time researching all the colleges she was interested in to verify that
                there were a lot of Brahmins attending the school? I suspected that it had to do
                with meeting possible marriage partners, but this person told me that the mother
                (my acquaintance) wanted to make sure that there were enough Brahmin girls there
                so her daughter could have enough Brahmin girlfriends.

                So, in essence, this lady I knew told me the caste system was dead in India, but
                meanwhile, she is practicing it in the Unites States.

                It seems like I used to have a really high opinions of all Indians, but lately I
                have been coming to realize that they are just like everybody else, a few great
                ones, and a whole bunch of average ones, including many who have no problem with
                being hypocritical.

                Jonathan
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