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More on ECKankar's Original Roots

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  • prometheus_973
    Hi Jonathan and All, You said, Of course, one of the faiths that Paul copied was Radhasoami. But look what Wikipedia says about it:
    Message 1 of 10 , Aug 30, 2010
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      Hi Jonathan and All,

      You said, "Of course, one of the "faiths"
      that Paul copied was Radhasoami. But
      look what Wikipedia says about it:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radha_Soami
      "Radhasoami is a faith, considered by adherents
      as a true way to realize God. It is neither
      a religion, nor a caste or creed or sect or
      a division in society."

      This got me to thinking about Twitchell's
      connection with Ruhani Satsang and
      with Kirpal Singh.

      Basically, there was a rift or schism when
      Kirpal Singh's Master (Baba Sawan Singh Ji)
      died in 1948. The main group kept the name
      Radhasoami. This was the group that Julian
      P. Johnson (who wrote "The Path of the Masters)
      followed. Kirpal Singh took his followers and
      formed Ruhani Satsang. This was the group
      and Master that Twitchell followed.

      BTW- There is no difference in dogma between
      the two groups, except, for the leadership.
      This is why "The Path of the Masters" could
      be used by Western students of both sects.

      However, when Twitchell created ECKankar
      he Westernized it to fit-in with the Western
      mind-set and his own.

      Here are some excerpts from: "The Teachings
      of Kirpal Singh."

      "The Holy Path-
      Initiation: The Awakening

      It is the "Word" personified or the Master Power
      that gives initiation, and it does not matter where
      the Master is at the time of initiation... At the time
      of Initiation, the Master takes His seat at the Third
      Eye of the initiate and takes care of him henceforth...
      the spiritual (third) eye is opened to see the Light
      of God and the inner ear is opened to hear the Voice
      of God--the Creative Sound of the Beyond which
      has a soothing and healing effect...The Master Power
      from the moment of Initiation, guides and protects one,
      even after the end of the world, and beyond."

      Anyway there's more about Satsang, etc. and also
      this prayer:

      "To be with the Gurumukh, to have the company
      of a Sadhu, to have the intoxication of the Naam;
      This is the true affinity in which Thy Name is
      remembered in the heart."

      Also, there's a section about, "Self-Introspection,
      Importance of keeping the (daily spiritual) Diary."
      Kirpal says to send in "blank pages" if you think
      you have nothing to say, but by doing so you will
      be inclined or inspired to remember and to write.

      Here Kirpal talks about being chaste and keeping
      the diary for spiritual growth:

      "With the Satguru's mercy one gets a little
      connection with the Light and Sound Principle,
      but if the life is not kept pure and chaste, the
      curtain of darkness will obscure the Light again.
      You must be regular in your meditation to maintain
      Light; there are important reasons behind the
      keeping of diaries... Chastity is the main source
      of all virtues."

      And, this is why Twitchell omitted this Virtue
      (for the Western mind-set) and why the EK
      version of this "Passions of the Mind" - Lust,
      doesn't match the "virtue" Twitchell assigned
      to it. This is why it's more difficult to remember
      Twitchell's substitution. It s/b Lust versus Chastity

      There was one more item that Twitchell needed
      to change, although, this is still a point of
      contention for some ECKists. It's the Vegetarian
      Diet. Apparently Karma is involved, but KLEMP
      seems to avoid the issue for the same reasons
      Twitchell did.

      Kirpal states:
      "We must therefore avoid meat, meat juices,
      fish, fowl, eggs both fertile and unfertile, or
      anything containing any of these ingredients
      in any form or in any degree. Every action
      has a reaction and flesh-eating involves
      contracting fresh Karmas and thus helps
      to keep the inexorable Karmic wheel in motion
      for we have to reap what we sow. We cannot
      have roses if we sow thistles... the above
      prohibitions apply equally to all kinds of
      alcoholic drinks, intoxicants, opiates and
      narcotic drugs, as they tend to dull our
      consciousness and make us morbid."

      So, for ECKankar to work Twitchell removed
      two Eastern (spiritual) requirements. Chastity
      and Vegetarianism.

      Prometheus
    • jonathanjohns96
      Prometheus, Interesting comments, but I d like you comment on one thing. ... We had a previous detailed discussion about chastity which started with my post on
      Message 2 of 10 , Aug 30, 2010
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        Prometheus,

        Interesting comments, but I'd like you comment on one thing.

        Here is a quote of part of what you wrote about Kirpal Singh:

        > Here Kirpal talks about being chaste and keeping
        > the diary for spiritual growth:

        > "With the Satguru's mercy one gets a little
        > connection with the Light and Sound Principle,
        > but if the life is not kept pure and chaste, the
        > curtain of darkness will obscure the Light again.
        > You must be regular in your meditation to maintain
        > Light; there are important reasons behind the
        > keeping of diaries... Chastity is the main source
        > of all virtues."

        > And, this is why Twitchell omitted this Virtue
        > (for the Western mind-set) and why the EK
        > version of this "Passions of the Mind" - Lust,
        > doesn't match the "virtue" Twitchell assigned
        > to it. This is why it's more difficult to remember
        > Twitchell's substitution. It s/b Lust versus Chastity

        We had a previous detailed discussion about chastity which started with my post on February 16, 2009:

        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/4446

        Here is a quote from that discussion:


        --------------- beginning of quote from message 4446 -----------
        But Darwin spoke about a lot of things. One of the minor topics
        was "chastity before marriage." I am quoting the following paragraph
        from "Your Right To Know" by Darwin Gross (page 136) (1979 copyright):

        "Sri Paul Twitchell told a small group of young people (and a few
        older people as well) at the Chicago Youth Conference in 1971 that
        the girls should retain their virginity until marriage and he
        stressed the same for the young men. Because a few have loose morals
        there are some religious groups out here on the West Coast telling
        others that those in ECKANKAR have no morals. This is an individual
        discipline and has nothing to do with ECKANKAR and its teachings."

        As a sidelight, it is interesting to note how Darwin states that PT
        emphasized that both girls and boy should be chaste until marriage,
        then Darwin says that it has nothing to do with Eckankar and its
        teachings. If it had nothing to do with Eckankar's teachings, then
        why was PT telling people about it at an Eckankar seminar?
        --------------- end of quote from message 4446 -----------


        so, I do agree with you that Twitchell removed the word "chastity" from the five passions of the mind. But is it possible to traditionally-thinking people in India like Kirpal Singh, that chastity and lust are just opposites of the same thing? That the reason that people are unchaste because of lust. If that is true, and Twitchell's thinking was traditional (which I believe it was) then the word "lust" on the list of five passions of the mind can be thought of a covert way to promote chastity. I agree with anyone who says that Eckists don't look at it that way. I think most Eckists look at lust as simply "being too addicted or too obsessed with sex" whether it occurs before marriage or after marriage. But I still wonder whether Kirpal's original thinking was that "lust is what leads to premarital sex."

        And in hindsight, I certainly believe that Twitchell leaving the word "chasity" out of the list of the five passions of the mind does reflect an intention to de-emphasize it in the tracings of Eckankar. So maybe when he made the five passions list he was vacillating on including the word "chastity." But at that particular seminar, maybe he was in a mood to rant about young people in Eckankar being immoral.

        Back on message number 4446, the next thing I wrote was:


        --------------- end of quote from message 4446 -----------
        The next paragraph in the book, pages 136 to 137, is interesting as
        well:

        "An article written in The Oakland Tribune by John Godwin, August
        1972, about Sri Paul Twitchell stated "He (Paul) blames moral laxity
        for most revolutions since the time of ancient Egypt and added the
        warning that there are forces now trying to build the same looseness
        of morals in our society here that will bring about the same results."

        I believe that the "forces" he was talking about were (1) the women's
        liberation movement, and the (2) hippie movement. In other words, the
        Sexual Revolution of the 1960s.
        --------------- end of quote from message 4446 -----------


        It almost looks to me like Twitchell was upset at a few lustful young people in Eckankar who were giving it a bad name. So he then went on a "pro chastity rant" at this particular seminar even though that was not what he was officially emphasizing in the teachings of Eckankar.

        But one thing is certain, Paul's using the word "lust" in the five passions creates one impression. Adding the concept of chastity to it creates a different impression.

        I'm interested in your thoughts on this one.

        Jonathan
      • jonathanjohns96
        Prometheus, I have a hard time keeping track of all this stuff. I may have gotten confused. It now seems to me that you were saying that Paul left chastity
        Message 3 of 10 , Aug 30, 2010
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          Prometheus,

          I have a hard time keeping track of all this stuff. I may have gotten confused. It now seems to me that you were saying that Paul left "chastity" off of some "virtues list" that he had.

          When I looked back to our February, 2009 discussion I thought you mentioned that chastity was associated with lust in some of the original versions of the five passions lists in India.

          So I need a clarification on that.

          Jonathan
        • prometheus_973
          Hello Jonathan, Sorry, I don t remember our previous discussion on this subject. However, let me respond to what you have shared below. Jonathan wrote:
          Message 4 of 10 , Aug 31, 2010
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            Hello Jonathan,
            Sorry, I don't remember our previous discussion
            on this subject. However, let me respond to what
            you have shared below.

            Jonathan wrote:
            rometheus,

            Interesting comments, but I'd like you comment on one thing.

            Here is a quote of part of what you wrote about Kirpal Singh:

            > Here Kirpal talks about being chaste and keeping
            > the diary for spiritual growth:

            > "With the Satguru's mercy one gets a little
            > connection with the Light and Sound Principle,
            > but if the life is not kept pure and chaste, the
            > curtain of darkness will obscure the Light again.
            > You must be regular in your meditation to maintain
            > Light; there are important reasons behind the
            > keeping of diaries... Chastity is the main source
            > of all virtues."

            > And, this is why Twitchell omitted this Virtue
            > (for the Western mind-set) and why the EK
            > version of this "Passions of the Mind" - Lust,
            > doesn't match the "virtue" Twitchell assigned
            > to it. This is why it's more difficult to remember
            > Twitchell's substitution. It s/b Lust versus Chastity

            We had a previous detailed discussion about chastity which started with my post
            on February 16, 2009:

            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/4446

            Here is a quote from that discussion:


            --------------- beginning of quote from message 4446 -----------
            But Darwin spoke about a lot of things. One of the minor topics
            was "chastity before marriage." I am quoting the following paragraph
            from "Your Right To Know" by Darwin Gross (page 136) (1979 copyright):

            "Sri Paul Twitchell told a small group of young people (and a few
            older people as well) at the Chicago Youth Conference in 1971 that
            the girls should retain their virginity until marriage and he
            stressed the same for the young men. Because a few have loose morals
            there are some religious groups out here on the West Coast telling
            others that those in ECKANKAR have no morals. This is an individual
            discipline and has nothing to do with ECKANKAR and its teachings."

            As a sidelight, it is interesting to note how Darwin states that PT
            emphasized that both girls and boy should be chaste until marriage,
            then Darwin says that it has nothing to do with Eckankar and its
            teachings. If it had nothing to do with Eckankar's teachings, then
            why was PT telling people about it at an Eckankar seminar?

            ***
            ME: It seems that Darwin mimicked Twitchell quite
            a bit when he first took over. However, most of
            these "preachers/politicians" practice the adage
            of "Do what I say, not as I do." Newt actually admitted
            to doing this. And, I don't really think Harry and Joan
            followed the chastity before marriage advice.

            However, I agree, if it had nothing to do with ECK(ankar)
            beliefs then why mention that it's up to the individual?
            It's actually double speak/talk.
            ***


            --------------- end of quote from message 4446 -----------


            so, I do agree with you that Twitchell removed the word "chastity" from the five
            passions of the mind. But is it possible to traditionally-thinking people in
            India like Kirpal Singh, that chastity and lust are just opposites of the same
            thing? That the reason that people are unchaste because of lust. If that is
            true, and Twitchell's thinking was traditional (which I believe it was) then the
            word "lust" on the list of five passions of the mind can be thought of a covert
            way to promote chastity.

            I agree with anyone who says that Eckists don't look at
            it that way. I think most Eckists look at lust as simply "being
            too addicted or too obsessed with sex" whether it occurs before
            marriage or after marriage. But I still wonder whether Kirpal's
            original thinking was that "lust is what leads to premarital sex."


            ***
            ME: Well, there's the Law/World of Opposites.
            And it could be that chastity and lust are the
            same in that they both act as a Denial of something.
            But if one sees the sexual act as making "love" then
            can we, still, call it lust? The religionists will take
            the fundamental and literal approach by attempting
            to control their followers, but sometimes these
            instructions can be seen as "metaphors." Perhaps,
            being loyal to one's mate can be seen as being chaste?
            In that sense we can see where "contentment" could
            be substituted (as Twitchell did) as the opposite of
            lust. However, Kirpal and the others who believe
            like him want "householders" to practice chastity
            when the woman could no longer bear any children.
            However, one can "Lust" after many things other
            than sex. Therefore, once again "contentment"
            does seem as though it could be the opposite
            virtue. However, there are other passions and
            virtues that would cover this definition of "lust"
            such as attachment - non-attachment.
            ***


            "And in hindsight, I certainly believe that Twitchell leaving the word "chasity"
            out of the list of the five passions of the mind does reflect an intention to
            de-emphasize it in the tracings of Eckankar. So maybe when he made the five
            passions list he was vacillating on including the word "chastity." But at that
            particular seminar, maybe he was in a mood to rant about young people in
            Eckankar being immoral."





            Back on message number 4446, the next thing I wrote was:


            --------------- end of quote from message 4446 -----------
            The next paragraph in the book, pages 136 to 137, is interesting as
            well:

            "An article written in The Oakland Tribune by John Godwin, August
            1972, about Sri Paul Twitchell stated "He (Paul) blames moral laxity
            for most revolutions since the time of ancient Egypt and added the
            warning that there are forces now trying to build the same looseness
            of morals in our society here that will bring about the same results."

            I believe that the "forces" he was talking about were (1) the women's
            liberation movement, and the (2) hippie movement. In other words, the
            Sexual Revolution of the 1960s.

            --------------- end of quote from message 4446 -----------


            It almost looks to me like Twitchell was upset at a few lustful young people in
            Eckankar who were giving it a bad name. So he then went on a "pro chastity rant"
            at this particular seminar even though that was not what he was officially
            emphasizing in the teachings of Eckankar.

            But one thing is certain, Paul's using the word "lust" in the five passions
            creates one impression. Adding the concept of chastity to it creates a different
            impression.

            I'm interested in your thoughts on this one.

            Jonathan


            ***
            ME: I think that I've pointed out before Paul altered
            the Five Passions and the Five Virtues found in "The
            Path of the Masters" to fit-in with the Western mind-
            set. It's kind of like what Mahareshi did with TM.

            The truth is that the LEM's have to give these chastity
            speeches because there're so many sexual liaisons
            within Eckankar. Many Eckists have been married
            multiple times to various ECKists. Karma is one reason
            ECKists feel that it's okay to "tie-up-loose-ends"
            and resolve those past-life feelings (and karma)
            with sexual interludes. Plus, by Not having the Virtue
            of Chastity, hanging around one's neck, it makes the
            pairing-up of EKists (to resolve past karma) even
            more acceptable. Let's face it, in Eckankar, Karma
            is emphasized much more than the Five Passions
            of the Mind and these are focused upon much more
            than the Five Virtues of the Mind.
            [prometheus]
            ***
          • prometheus_973
            Hello Jonathan, Yes, Paul used and altered the Passions/Virtues chart in The Path of the Masters. As a recap here are both versions to compare: From Chapter
            Message 5 of 10 , Aug 31, 2010
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              Hello Jonathan,
              Yes, Paul used and altered the Passions/Virtues
              chart in "The Path of the Masters."

              As a recap here are both versions to compare:

              From Chapter 6 "The Path of the Masters"

              "Passions and their Remedies
              KAM (Lust).................Shil..................Chastity, continence
              KRODH (Anger)..........Kshama............Forgiveness, tolerance
              LOBH (Greed).............Santosha..........Contentment
              MOH (Attachment).....Viveka/Vairag...Discrimination/Detachment
              AHANKAR (Ego;Pride)..Dinta...............Humility"


              Passions of Mind and Virtues from HK's 1st ECK Lexicon (pg. 73):

              KAMA (Lust)................Viveka...............Right Discrimination (pg. 225)
              KRODHA (Anger).........Kshama.............Forgiveness
              LOBHA (Greed).........Santosha/Shanti...Peace/Contentment
              MOHA (Attachment).....Vairag...............Detachment
              AHANKARA (Vanity)......Dinta................Humility

              Anyway, these Passions and Virtues are not matched
              up in HK's 1st Lexicon so that people can't readily
              see the differences, but one can compare the two
              lists and see where Twit made some "creative" changes
              (like adding an "a" to some of these names).

              And, one can see that Twitchell moved some words
              around to do his own mix and match. Look at MOH.
              PT omitted Chastity and moved "Viveka" (Discrimination)
              up to cover the virtue (opposite) for Lust.

              BTW- I think that in my prior post I confused the EK
              Virtue, or remedy, for Lust. I was thinking that it was
              Contentment but it's Discrimination. See how easy it
              is to confuse these things when the proper designation
              or term is not used.

              ["Sant Mat"............................."ECKankar"
              Lust - Chastity.....versus....Lust - Discrimination].

              It does seem to me that the remedy for Lust
              could be Contentment versus Chastity or
              Discrimination. Actually, Contentment could
              be the remedy for many of these Passions of
              the Mind.

              Prometheus


              Jonathan wrote:
              Prometheus,

              I have a hard time keeping track of all this stuff. I may have gotten confused.
              It now seems to me that you were saying that Paul left "chastity" off of some
              "virtues list" that he had.

              When I looked back to our February, 2009 discussion I thought you mentioned that
              chastity was associated with lust in some of the original versions of the five
              passions lists in India.

              So I need a clarification on that.

              Jonathan
            • jonathanjohns96
              Promethes, Thanks for the two additional messages clarifying things. It s an interesting subject. I d really love to talk to a Hindu or Sikh from India and ask
              Message 6 of 10 , Sep 2, 2010
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                Promethes,

                Thanks for the two additional messages clarifying things. It's an interesting subject.

                I'd really love to talk to a Hindu or Sikh from India and ask them exactly what these gurus mean by "lust" and "chastity." I am getting the intuitive impression that for them, "lust" is ANY sex outside marriage. In other words, people can only have sex during marriage, so any sex that takes place outside marriage obviously results from the fact that they can't control their sex drive. And so they automatically call this "lust."

                I was in TM (Transcendental Meditation) for about two years before joining Eckankar. I read Maharishi's little paperback book. He spent a LOT of time talking about how important it is to "sublimate the sex drive and direct it toward something else." So sublimating the sex drive, or controlling it, is extremely important in Hinduism.

                Somebody told me that married Hindus are expected to stop having sex after they stop having children. I had a Chinese girlfriend who was born in Taiwan, but mostly raised in the USA. She once told me that her parents had intercourse only two times. Incredulous, I asked "How do you know that?" She replied "Once for me, and once for my sister." The point is that I am getting the impression that Hindus almost seem to believe that sex is only for procreation.

                I think all of this may be important to figuring out where Kirpal Singh was "coming from" when he was discussing lust and chastity.

                But you are right in your analysis of Twitchell. His version is not at all the same as Kirpal's version. I think you did a good job documenting what Twitchell did.

                Jonathan



                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hello Jonathan,
                > Yes, Paul used and altered the Passions/Virtues
                > chart in "The Path of the Masters."
                >
                > As a recap here are both versions to compare:
                >
                > From Chapter 6 "The Path of the Masters"
                >
                > "Passions and their Remedies
                > KAM (Lust).................Shil..................Chastity, continence
                > KRODH (Anger)..........Kshama............Forgiveness, tolerance
                > LOBH (Greed).............Santosha..........Contentment
                > MOH (Attachment).....Viveka/Vairag...Discrimination/Detachment
                > AHANKAR (Ego;Pride)..Dinta...............Humility"
                >
                >
                > Passions of Mind and Virtues from HK's 1st ECK Lexicon (pg. 73):
                >
                > KAMA (Lust)................Viveka...............Right Discrimination (pg. 225)
                > KRODHA (Anger).........Kshama.............Forgiveness
                > LOBHA (Greed).........Santosha/Shanti...Peace/Contentment
                > MOHA (Attachment).....Vairag...............Detachment
                > AHANKARA (Vanity)......Dinta................Humility
                >
                > Anyway, these Passions and Virtues are not matched
                > up in HK's 1st Lexicon so that people can't readily
                > see the differences, but one can compare the two
                > lists and see where Twit made some "creative" changes
                > (like adding an "a" to some of these names).
                >
                > And, one can see that Twitchell moved some words
                > around to do his own mix and match. Look at MOH.
                > PT omitted Chastity and moved "Viveka" (Discrimination)
                > up to cover the virtue (opposite) for Lust.
                >
                > BTW- I think that in my prior post I confused the EK
                > Virtue, or remedy, for Lust. I was thinking that it was
                > Contentment but it's Discrimination. See how easy it
                > is to confuse these things when the proper designation
                > or term is not used.
                >
                > ["Sant Mat"............................."ECKankar"
                > Lust - Chastity.....versus....Lust - Discrimination].
                >
                > It does seem to me that the remedy for Lust
                > could be Contentment versus Chastity or
                > Discrimination. Actually, Contentment could
                > be the remedy for many of these Passions of
                > the Mind.
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
                >
                > Jonathan wrote:
                > Prometheus,
                >
                > I have a hard time keeping track of all this stuff. I may have gotten confused.
                > It now seems to me that you were saying that Paul left "chastity" off of some
                > "virtues list" that he had.
                >
                > When I looked back to our February, 2009 discussion I thought you mentioned that
                > chastity was associated with lust in some of the original versions of the five
                > passions lists in India.
                >
                > So I need a clarification on that.
                >
                > Jonathan
                >
              • prometheus_973
                Hello Jonathan, I m not sure if speaking to a Hindu and/or a Sikh would give clarification to your question. That s like asking a Christian a question about
                Message 7 of 10 , Sep 3, 2010
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                  Hello Jonathan,
                  I'm not sure if speaking to a Hindu and/or a Sikh
                  would give clarification to your question. That's
                  like asking a "Christian" a question about belief.
                  What dogma does the Christian follow? There are
                  so many beliefs and each individual interprets it
                  differently.

                  As I mentioned most "householders," or normal
                  people, are expected to practice chastity when
                  the woman can no longer produce offspring.
                  Thus, there is no sex outside or inside of marriage
                  beyond a certain stage of life. Having sex inside
                  of marriage when the woman can no longer reproduce
                  is seen as the same as having sex outside of the
                  marriage... it's still lust and this is an attachment
                  to worldly desires... and to a lower chakra (consciousness).

                  BTW- I was in TM for six years before joining Eckankar
                  and was a Siddha. Although not a Governor I volunteered
                  as a "checker" and had duties somewhat to that of an ESA.
                  I had to make sure people were meditating properly
                  and were comfortable with their mantra. People were
                  discouraged from writing them down and would at
                  times forget them. It would be two or three syllables
                  but the way the mantra was pronounced would naturally
                  "change." Actually, the key word was "natural." Sometimes
                  I would step out of the room and consult my "list" before
                  going back in to help them remember their mantra.

                  The kundalini was used to direct energy down
                  through the chakras in order do the flying technique,
                  and we were instructed not to have sex during the
                  "program."

                  The "flying technique" was supposed to cause levitation
                  and was a physical side effect to Higher Consciousness.
                  But, the only "effect" I ever saw was hopping. However,
                  when one was sitting in a full lotus position and chanted
                  the sutra (with the visualization) the energy channeled
                  through the kundalini did produce an electrical charge.
                  Of course there was a certain amount of expectation but
                  we were simply being open to whatever. The result was
                  like touching an electrical wire to a frog's leg and getting
                  a muscle response. Therefore, the hopping (on thick high
                  density foam mattresses) was effortless and could be
                  done, easily, and with minimal exertion for 20 minutes.

                  However, TM was a very expensive and distracting ruse
                  and with more discipline than Eckankar requires.
                  I'm kind of surprised that I took the bait with Eckankar
                  after that. But, at least I did remain skeptical and this
                  enabled me to be more open minded when Ford's book
                  came out.

                  Prometheus


                  jonathan wrote


                  Promethes,

                  Thanks for the two additional messages clarifying things. It's an interesting
                  subject.

                  I'd really love to talk to a Hindu or Sikh from India and ask them exactly what
                  these gurus mean by "lust" and "chastity." I am getting the intuitive impression
                  that for them, "lust" is ANY sex outside marriage. In other words, people can
                  only have sex during marriage, so any sex that takes place outside marriage
                  obviously results from the fact that they can't control their sex drive. And so
                  they automatically call this "lust."

                  I was in TM (Transcendental Meditation) for about two years before joining
                  Eckankar. I read Maharishi's little paperback book. He spent a LOT of time
                  talking about how important it is to "sublimate the sex drive and direct it
                  toward something else." So sublimating the sex drive, or controlling it, is
                  extremely important in Hinduism.

                  Somebody told me that married Hindus are expected to stop having sex after they
                  stop having children. I had a Chinese girlfriend who was born in Taiwan, but
                  mostly raised in the USA. She once told me that her parents had intercourse only
                  two times. Incredulous, I asked "How do you know that?" She replied "Once for
                  me, and once for my sister." The point is that I am getting the impression that
                  Hindus almost seem to believe that sex is only for procreation.

                  I think all of this may be important to figuring out where Kirpal Singh was
                  "coming from" when he was discussing lust and chastity.

                  But you are right in your analysis of Twitchell. His version is not at all the
                  same as Kirpal's version. I think you did a good job documenting what Twitchell
                  did.

                  Jonathan
                • prometheus_973
                  Hello Jonathan, I reread what I had previously written and thought I should give some clarification on Maharishi s instructions for us to remain chaste during
                  Message 8 of 10 , Sep 4, 2010
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                    Hello Jonathan,

                    I reread what I had previously written
                    and thought I should give some
                    clarification on Maharishi's instructions
                    for us to remain chaste during the
                    TM "Program" for Siddha training.
                    This 1st Phase of training was an intense
                    two week course in the Catskills. Other
                    than for this training we, as householders
                    or "Citizen" Siddhas, were not instructed
                    to practice chastity. Plus, we "couples"
                    complied because we wanted the best
                    results for the money. This was an expensive
                    course ($3,000 each), even, for way back
                    in the '70s!

                    FYI- The Sutras, like the one used for
                    the Flying Technique, came from Patanjali.
                    You can find some of these in the 1953
                    book "How To Know God" translated
                    by Swami Prabhavananda and Christopher
                    Isherwood.

                    BTW-The Sutra for the TM
                    "Flying Technique" is thus:

                    But first this-

                    The clearing of the mind is
                    like pouring pure clear water
                    into a bottle of ink. The ink
                    (your thoughts) will flow out
                    as the water flows in. Eventually
                    the ink in the bottle will be
                    replaced by clear pure water.

                    Sit comfortably in a quiet
                    room. Close your eyes and
                    quiet your mind. Breathe easily,
                    gently, and naturally... don't
                    allow any attention to be placed
                    upon your thoughts or upon
                    your breathing. Let both be
                    natural. Gently clear and quiet
                    your mind without forcing it.
                    Let Go of all the thoughts rushing
                    in. Don't hold onto any of them
                    even if it seems fun to follow
                    them. Let All of these thoughts,
                    Ever So Gently, go into the ethers.
                    Take your time and relax until
                    your mind and breathing settle
                    down naturally.

                    Now visualize yourself holding
                    a ball of cotton. In the bright
                    light of day take your fingers
                    and pull it apart! Now, see the
                    loose fibers gently floating
                    in the air and rising upwards.

                    As you visualize this think...
                    "Light As Cotton Fiber!"

                    Feel the spiritual energy in
                    the Crown Chakra ready to
                    descend downwards through
                    the Kundalini! Repeat this!




                    prometheus wrote:
                    >
                    > Hello Jonathan,
                    > I'm not sure if speaking to a Hindu and/or a Sikh
                    > would give clarification to your question. That's
                    > like asking a "Christian" a question about belief.
                    > What dogma does the Christian follow? There are
                    > so many beliefs and each individual interprets it
                    > differently.
                    >
                    > As I mentioned most "householders," or normal
                    > people, are expected to practice chastity when
                    > the woman can no longer produce offspring.
                    > Thus, there is no sex outside or inside of marriage
                    > beyond a certain stage of life. Having sex inside
                    > of marriage when the woman can no longer reproduce
                    > is seen as the same as having sex outside of the
                    > marriage... it's still lust and this is an attachment
                    > to worldly desires... and to a lower chakra (consciousness).
                    >
                    > BTW- I was in TM for six years before joining Eckankar
                    > and was a Siddha. Although not a Governor I volunteered
                    > as a "checker" and had duties somewhat to that of an ESA.
                    > I had to make sure people were meditating properly
                    > and were comfortable with their mantra. People were
                    > discouraged from writing them down and would at
                    > times forget them. It would be two or three syllables
                    > but the way the mantra was pronounced would naturally
                    > "change." Actually, the key word was "natural." Sometimes
                    > I would step out of the room and consult my "list" before
                    > going back in to help them remember their mantra.
                    >
                    > The kundalini was used to direct energy down
                    > through the chakras in order do the flying technique,
                    > and we were instructed not to have sex during the
                    > "program."
                    >
                    > The "flying technique" was supposed to cause levitation
                    > and was a physical side effect to Higher Consciousness.
                    > But, the only "effect" I ever saw was hopping. However,
                    > when one was sitting in a full lotus position and chanted
                    > the sutra (with the visualization) the energy channeled
                    > through the kundalini did produce an electrical charge.
                    > Of course there was a certain amount of expectation but
                    > we were simply being open to whatever. The result was
                    > like touching an electrical wire to a frog's leg and getting
                    > a muscle response. Therefore, the hopping (on thick high
                    > density foam mattresses) was effortless and could be
                    > done, easily, and with minimal exertion for 20 minutes.
                    >
                    > However, TM was a very expensive and distracting ruse
                    > and with more discipline than Eckankar requires.
                    > I'm kind of surprised that I took the bait with Eckankar
                    > after that. But, at least I did remain skeptical and this
                    > enabled me to be more open minded when Ford's book
                    > came out.
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    >
                    >
                    > jonathan wrote
                    >
                    >
                    > Promethes,
                    >
                    > Thanks for the two additional messages clarifying things. It's an interesting
                    > subject.
                    >
                    > I'd really love to talk to a Hindu or Sikh from India and ask them exactly what
                    > these gurus mean by "lust" and "chastity." I am getting the intuitive impression
                    > that for them, "lust" is ANY sex outside marriage. In other words, people can
                    > only have sex during marriage, so any sex that takes place outside marriage
                    > obviously results from the fact that they can't control their sex drive. And so
                    > they automatically call this "lust."
                    >
                    > I was in TM (Transcendental Meditation) for about two years before joining
                    > Eckankar. I read Maharishi's little paperback book. He spent a LOT of time
                    > talking about how important it is to "sublimate the sex drive and direct it
                    > toward something else." So sublimating the sex drive, or controlling it, is
                    > extremely important in Hinduism.
                    >
                    > Somebody told me that married Hindus are expected to stop having sex after they
                    > stop having children. I had a Chinese girlfriend who was born in Taiwan, but
                    > mostly raised in the USA. She once told me that her parents had intercourse only
                    > two times. Incredulous, I asked "How do you know that?" She replied "Once for
                    > me, and once for my sister." The point is that I am getting the impression that
                    > Hindus almost seem to believe that sex is only for procreation.
                    >
                    > I think all of this may be important to figuring out where Kirpal Singh was
                    > "coming from" when he was discussing lust and chastity.
                    >
                    > But you are right in your analysis of Twitchell. His version is not at all the
                    > same as Kirpal's version. I think you did a good job documenting what Twitchell
                    > did.
                    >
                    > Jonathan
                    >
                  • jonathanjohns96
                    Prometheus, I m not so sure speaking with a Hindu or Sikh is worthwhile either, but mostly because I m not certain that they will tell me the truth. I knew a
                    Message 9 of 10 , Sep 8, 2010
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                      Prometheus,

                      I'm not so sure speaking with a Hindu or Sikh is worthwhile either, but mostly because I'm not certain that they will tell me the truth.

                      I knew a Brahmin lady from India. Over a year ago she told me that the caste system was gone in India. Somebody who knows her very well recently told me that her daughter was preparing to go to college. And this lady spent a tremendous amount of time researching all the colleges she was interested in to verify that there were a lot of Brahmins attending the school? I suspected that it had to do with meeting possible marriage partners, but this person told me that the mother (my acquaintance) wanted to make sure that there were enough Brahmin girls there so her daughter could have enough Brahmin girlfriends.

                      So, in essence, this lady I knew told me the caste system was dead in India, but meanwhile, she is practicing it in the Unites States.

                      It seems like I used to have a really high opinions of all Indians, but lately I have been coming to realize that they are just like everybody else, a few great ones, and a whole bunch of average ones, including many who have no problem with being hypocritical.

                      Jonathan
                    • prometheus_973
                      Hello Jonathan and All, I agree that it s hard to get the real truth from any religionist... Eckankar included. Yes, the caste system was outlawed in India
                      Message 10 of 10 , Sep 8, 2010
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                        Hello Jonathan and All,
                        I agree that it's hard to get the real truth
                        from any religionist... Eckankar included.
                        Yes, the caste system was "outlawed" in
                        India (for show) but it's functioning quite
                        well.

                        Eckankar's Caste System equates to: Level
                        of Initiation.

                        Let's face it, a lower initiate's opinion or
                        even their "spiritual" experiences (especially
                        those coming from 1st, 2nd or 3rd initiates)
                        mean little to most Higher Initiates. These
                        "experiences" may be worthy enough to
                        place into an ECK pub for publicity purposes,
                        but have no real value otherwise, except
                        to other Lower Initiates (wannabes). In truth,
                        these Lower Initiates are disrespected by
                        H.I.s because their Initiation Level is a "Yardstick"
                        of their level of inner experience and consciousness.

                        Yes, some Lower Initiates may have good
                        business and communication skills, but this
                        is not the same as having a higher "spiritual"
                        consciousness. On the other hand these Eckists
                        who do have unique worldly skills are usually
                        those who get initiated faster and higher.
                        Thus, "professionals," in Eckankar, get promoted
                        faster and higher than those who don't have
                        the "credentials." This in and of itself shows
                        a "caste consciousness." Professionals are
                        "fast tracked" on Initiations, but almost all
                        will hit the glass ceiling of the 7th Initiation.


                        BTW- Klemp has stated, in the past, that some
                        Lower Initiates are "higher" than some Higher
                        Initiates. However, if this were true then why
                        did these "Higher" Initiates get promoted in
                        the first place and/or why have they kept their
                        Higher Initiation rank?

                        Plus, why weren't these "Lower" Initiates, with
                        a H.I. level of consciousness as HK claimed,
                        promoted to the 5th or 6th Initiation? I knew
                        one or two and they were never promoted.
                        Klemp's words are useless because the proof
                        is in the pudding... so to speak. If someone
                        coming into ECKankar really does have a level
                        of spiritual consciousness equating to the 5th,
                        6th, or 7th Plane then why aren't they promoted
                        to at least the 5th? And, why aren't some H.I.s
                        demoted if they don't demonstrate, via behaviour,
                        a Higher "Spiritual" Consciousness?

                        Well, it's obvious why it doesn't make sense.
                        Klemp is a fraud! He has no idea of what is
                        going on with anyone unless someone sends
                        him an email, gives him or Joan a phone call,
                        or he receives a snail-mail letter. Of course
                        he does hear about it in person at times from
                        Board members, or from RESAs when there's
                        a big RESA meeting.

                        However, much of this communication HK has
                        (involving other ECKists) is merely hearsay and
                        is not verified. The big point is, there's no "Inner"
                        communication that takes place with Klemp (the
                        LEM/Mahanta) and with his Higher Initiates. A
                        few ECKists having an occasional dream, etc.
                        with Klemp showing up doesn't really amount
                        to having "inner communication." This is just
                        another use of the mind's imagination giving
                        a religious follower what they have expected
                        and desired to experience. All religions use
                        these "experiences"or miracles or whatever as
                        "proof" that their religion is better than another
                        or all others!

                        I'm rather surprised that many ECKists have
                        limited curiosity as to the beginnings of Eckankar
                        and don't see the correlations with other religions
                        like Sant Mat or with secret visitations and miracles.
                        Apparently, most ECKistss threw their memories
                        of this out with the bath water, and don't read
                        anything outside of the EK teachings due to an
                        innate fear of learning the Truth. Most people
                        need to feel secure and special and this requires
                        a personal "God" and Eckankar is no exception.

                        Prometheus






                        Jonathan wrote:
                        Prometheus,

                        I'm not so sure speaking with a Hindu or Sikh is worthwhile either, but mostly
                        because I'm not certain that they will tell me the truth.

                        I knew a Brahmin lady from India. Over a year ago she told me that the caste
                        system was gone in India. Somebody who knows her very well recently told me that
                        her daughter was preparing to go to college. And this lady spent a tremendous
                        amount of time researching all the colleges she was interested in to verify that
                        there were a lot of Brahmins attending the school? I suspected that it had to do
                        with meeting possible marriage partners, but this person told me that the mother
                        (my acquaintance) wanted to make sure that there were enough Brahmin girls there
                        so her daughter could have enough Brahmin girlfriends.

                        So, in essence, this lady I knew told me the caste system was dead in India, but
                        meanwhile, she is practicing it in the Unites States.

                        It seems like I used to have a really high opinions of all Indians, but lately I
                        have been coming to realize that they are just like everybody else, a few great
                        ones, and a whole bunch of average ones, including many who have no problem with
                        being hypocritical.

                        Jonathan
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