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Re: What Makes Klemp a Prophet... a second book?

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  • jonathanjohns96
    You reminded me of something very important that I have never mentioned on any message board. You said that Religion was becoming a bad word. What I wanted
    Message 1 of 7 , Aug 24, 2010
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      You reminded me of something very important that I have never mentioned on any message board. You said that "Religion" was becoming a bad word. What I wanted to mention is that if Eckankar was calling itself a religion in 1979 when I joined, I would have never joined. The reason is because as you put it, "religion" was a bad word for me. I was very turned off by all religions.

      The interesting thing is that TM had the same by-line (We are not a religion).

      Of course, one of the "faiths" that Paul copied was Radhasoami. But look what Wikipedia says about it:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radha_Soami
      "Radhasoami is a faith, considered by adherents as a true way to realize God. It is neither a religion, nor a caste or creed or sect or a division in society."

      To me, this sounds exactly like the way Twitchell described Eckankar. Dvaid Lane must have mentioned this, but it must have just flown past me.

      Jonathan

      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "avonblue1212" <gowiththeflow1212@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Good information Jonathan. Twitchell rode the popular (although esoteric) back of Scientology, Sant Mat, Edgar Cayce, etc. in the 60's to build his new "path". " Religion" was becoming a bad word. Look at the eckankar site now! From the soft pastel colors, gold highlights, clean-cut smiling faces - it looks like a Christian Easter mass announcement. Paul is probably rolling in his proverbial grave. I'm not sure this new look reflects the consciousness of the age, as eckists are led to believe, but more the consciousness of a mid-western man trying to save a dying "religion".
      >
      > AB
      >
      >
      > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96" <jonathanjohns96@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Prometheus,
      > >
      > > I can't answer your question about what makes Klemp a prophet, but I would like to comment on two other things related to Eckankar's calling Klemp a prophet.
      > >
      > > First of all, Eckankar could easily make Klemps' weekly radio broadcast in Chanhassen available on Eckankar.org. I haven't actually looked there, but I am assuming that it is not there. Or they could even make mp3s of the broadcast and distribute them for free on Eckankar.org. (Ha ha! Fat chance of Eckankar giving something away for free!)
      > >
      > > Secondly, "prophet" is a term used widely by Christianity. Islam obviously uses it too, but that is a translation from Middle Eastern languages. So I see Eckankar's use of the term prophet as applied to HK as another example of Eckankar imitating Christianity in order to make themselves more appealing to people of Christian ancestry.
      > >
      > > Twitchell used terms like "satguru" and even "avatar," and probably other words of Indian origin. Those terms tend to color Eckankar as a religion from India. Eckankar is from India, of course, but Eckankar wants to de-emphasize that in its initial portrayal of itself to potential new members. So using the term "prophet" allows Eckankar to further distance itself from Paul's "India-colored" version of Eckankar. Paul's version of Eckankar actually worked for Eckankar in the 60s and 70s when the Beatles and others were turning to eastern religions such as Maharishi's Transcendental Meditation (TM). But today, Eckankar continues to distance itself from that image, at least in its initial presentation to non-members.
      > >
      > > So using a Christian term and avoiding an Indian term is really part of the same process. The Christian term cancels out any weird-sounding East Indian term like "Mahanta." Of course, new members do find out the truth eventually.
      > >
      > > In case any historians like Etznab read this, Paul used the word avatar in one of his cassette tapes. I learned the word from him and his tape. And also, he mispronounced the word. He pronounced the first syllable like "save." So I pronounced the word incorrectly for 30 years, all the way up to when the movie came out. And just because I am such a perfectionist, I asked a man from India who was in an Indian grocery store how it is pronounced in India. He told me the standard American pronunciation with the first syllable pronounced like "have." I forgot to mention that the word avatar comes from Sanskrit; that's why I assumed that a person from India would know how to pronounce it correctly.
      > >
      > > avatar - Merriam-Webster Dictionary
      > > http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/avatar
      > >
      > > Jonathan
      > >
      >
    • prometheus_973
      Hello Jonathan and All, In Difficulties Paul was referred to as a saviour. Actually, HK s Modern Prophet designation reminds me more of Islam s use of
      Message 2 of 7 , Aug 27, 2010
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        Hello Jonathan and All,
        In "Difficulties" Paul was
        referred to as a "saviour."

        Actually, HK's "Modern Prophet"
        designation reminds me more
        of Islam's use of the term, as
        well as, the Mormon use of
        "Prophet." Of course HK is a
        14th Plane God while these
        others are relegated to the
        lower planes ruled by Satan
        (i.e. the Devil, Kal).

        Therefore, (IMO) I see less
        connection to Christianity when
        HK uses "Prophet" to describe
        himself. I see it as more of a
        term a cultist would use. I think
        he's conflicted and is doing this
        because he wants to play down
        the "Mahanta" title since the so-
        called Mahanta is 10 Planes above
        the "God" that every other religion
        prays to and worships... this is
        a much higher status than that
        Jesus or Mohamed.

        And, let's face it, Klemp just can't
        live up to the Mahanta Job Description.
        Maybe that's the real reason he
        plays it down. I still don't see why
        ECKists haven't questioned HK's
        qualifications. According to the
        Shariyat 1 he (the Mahanta) was
        to have had a virgin birth. Harold
        was the second child born by his
        mother and was not adopted!
        Thus, Twitchell has been the only
        Mahanta to this date!

        However, that brings up another
        discussion. The Shariyats are said
        to have been merely "transcribed"
        by Twitchell. The original author
        of Book One is listed as Fubbi and
        Book Two's author is listed as Yaubl.
        I wonder why Rebazar didn't dictate
        a Shariyat to Twit?

        Anyway, why are these Eckankar Holy
        Books offered to the public andr to lower
        initiates? Nothing can be reinterpreted
        or viewed from another perspective as
        it is with the Christian Bible. Every
        scriptural interpretation or dream, etc.
        must be validated and approved by Klemp
        before it can be "taught" and/or promoted.
        Klemp has total control. Therefore, why
        even offer this EK Scripture to the EK
        Membership let alone to the general public?

        Yes, ECKankar practices bait and switch.
        One doesn't discover this, and the implications,
        until one becomes indoctrinated and
        brainwashed via trusting all of those
        smiling faces.

        Prometheus

        jonathanjohns wrote:
        Prometheus,

        I can't answer your question about what makes Klemp a prophet, but I would like
        to comment on two other things related to Eckankar's calling Klemp a prophet.

        First of all, Eckankar could easily make Klemps' weekly radio broadcast in
        Chanhassen available on Eckankar.org. I haven't actually looked there, but I am
        assuming that it is not there. Or they could even make mp3s of the broadcast and
        distribute them for free on Eckankar.org. (Ha ha! Fat chance of Eckankar giving
        something away for free!)

        Secondly, "prophet" is a term used widely by Christianity. Islam obviously uses
        it too, but that is a translation from Middle Eastern languages. So I see
        Eckankar's use of the term prophet as applied to HK as another example of
        Eckankar imitating Christianity in order to make themselves more appealing to
        people of Christian ancestry.

        Twitchell used terms like "satguru" and even "avatar," and probably other words
        of Indian origin. Those terms tend to color Eckankar as a religion from India.
        Eckankar is from India, of course, but Eckankar wants to de-emphasize that in
        its initial portrayal of itself to potential new members. So using the term
        "prophet" allows Eckankar to further distance itself from Paul's "India-colored"
        version of Eckankar. Paul's version of Eckankar actually worked for Eckankar in
        the 60s and 70s when the Beatles and others were turning to eastern religions
        such as Maharishi's Transcendental Meditation (TM). But today, Eckankar
        continues to distance itself from that image, at least in its initial
        presentation to non-members.

        So using a Christian term and avoiding an Indian term is really part of the same
        process. The Christian term cancels out any weird-sounding East Indian term like
        "Mahanta." Of course, new members do find out the truth eventually.

        In case any historians like Etznab read this, Paul used the word avatar in one
        of his cassette tapes. I learned the word from him and his tape. And also, he
        mispronounced the word. He pronounced the first syllable like "save." So I
        pronounced the word incorrectly for 30 years, all the way up to when the movie
        came out. And just because I am such a perfectionist, I asked a man from India
        who was in an Indian grocery store how it is pronounced in India. He told me the
        standard American pronunciation with the first syllable pronounced like "have."
        I forgot to mention that the word avatar comes from Sanskrit; that's why I
        assumed that a person from India would know how to pronounce it correctly.

        avatar - Merriam-Webster Dictionary
        http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/avatar

        Jonathan
      • prometheus_973
        Hello Jonathan, Avonblue, and All, Actually, when I joined, Eckankar was being referred to as a spiritual path and the term religion was avoided because we
        Message 3 of 7 , Aug 27, 2010
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          Hello Jonathan, Avonblue, and All,

          Actually, when I joined, Eckankar was being referred
          to as a "spiritual path" and the term "religion" was
          avoided because we still had a bad taste in our
          mouths about "religion."

          Yes, I did the Cayce (A.R.E.) thing, the TM thing
          and several others. It is interesting that even to
          this day most TMers will say that TM is Not a religion.
          It's a scientific method to reduce stress. ROFLMAO!
          Actually it does work to reduce stress, but secretly
          one is praying to Hindu gods! Maharishi was a
          conman who knew how to (covertly) promote a
          religion to the Western mindset. And, some of the
          ritual for receiving a mantra is very similar to what
          one does at an ECK initiation.

          BTW- It was mentioned as to what the Eckankar
          site looks like now. But, look at how long it took!
          I remember that I was still getting publications
          from TM for about ten years (I couldn't get rid
          of them... they'd track me down) into the 1980s
          and everything was printed in Gold Leaf. Look at
          how long it took Eckankar (Klemp) to change the
          format of the ECK pubs. Weren't the EK publications
          changed to a Gold Leaf look around 1990? Strange
          that he copied TM's look. That's why I said that
          Klemp seems conflicted. HK goes back to his
          familiar Lutheran roots while, also, following
          PT's hodge-podge of Eastern thought. That's
          another thing. Eckankar is a hodge-podge
          religion, therefore, why aren't other perspectives
          permitted? Klemp is the only one who gets to
          say how it is and what you're to say and believe.

          Prometheus

          jonathanjohns wrote:
          Re: What Makes Klemp a Prophet... a second book?

          You reminded me of something very important that I have never mentioned on any
          message board. You said that "Religion" was becoming a bad word. What I wanted
          to mention is that if Eckankar was calling itself a religion in 1979 when I
          joined, I would have never joined. The reason is because as you put it,
          "religion" was a bad word for me. I was very turned off by all religions.

          The interesting thing is that TM had the same by-line (We are not a religion).

          Of course, one of the "faiths" that Paul copied was Radhasoami. But look what
          Wikipedia says about it:

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radha_Soami
          "Radhasoami is a faith, considered by adherents as a true way to realize God. It
          is neither a religion, nor a caste or creed or sect or a division in society."

          To me, this sounds exactly like the way Twitchell described Eckankar. Dvaid Lane
          must have mentioned this, but it must have just flown past me.

          Jonathan

          avonblue wrote:
          >
          >
          > Good information Jonathan. Twitchell rode the popular (although esoteric)
          back of Scientology, Sant Mat, Edgar Cayce, etc. in the 60's to build his new
          "path". " Religion" was becoming a bad word. Look at the eckankar site now!
          From the soft pastel colors, gold highlights, clean-cut smiling faces - it looks
          like a Christian Easter mass announcement. Paul is probably rolling in his
          proverbial grave. I'm not sure this new look reflects the consciousness of the
          age, as eckists are led to believe, but more the consciousness of a mid-western
          man trying to save a dying "religion".
          >
          > AB
          >
          >
          jonathanjohns wrote:
          > >
          > > Prometheus,
          > >
          > > I can't answer your question about what makes Klemp a prophet, but I would
          like to comment on two other things related to Eckankar's calling Klemp a
          prophet.
          > >
          > > First of all, Eckankar could easily make Klemps' weekly radio broadcast in
          Chanhassen available on Eckankar.org. I haven't actually looked there, but I am
          assuming that it is not there. Or they could even make mp3s of the broadcast and
          distribute them for free on Eckankar.org. (Ha ha! Fat chance of Eckankar giving
          something away for free!)
          > >
          > > Secondly, "prophet" is a term used widely by Christianity. Islam obviously
          uses it too, but that is a translation from Middle Eastern languages. So I see
          Eckankar's use of the term prophet as applied to HK as another example of
          Eckankar imitating Christianity in order to make themselves more appealing to
          people of Christian ancestry.
          > >
          > > Twitchell used terms like "satguru" and even "avatar," and probably other
          words of Indian origin. Those terms tend to color Eckankar as a religion from
          India. Eckankar is from India, of course, but Eckankar wants to de-emphasize
          that in its initial portrayal of itself to potential new members. So using the
          term "prophet" allows Eckankar to further distance itself from Paul's
          "India-colored" version of Eckankar. Paul's version of Eckankar actually worked
          for Eckankar in the 60s and 70s when the Beatles and others were turning to
          eastern religions such as Maharishi's Transcendental Meditation (TM). But today,
          Eckankar continues to distance itself from that image, at least in its initial
          presentation to non-members.
          > >
          > > So using a Christian term and avoiding an Indian term is really part of the
          same process. The Christian term cancels out any weird-sounding East Indian term
          like "Mahanta." Of course, new members do find out the truth eventually.
          > >
          > > In case any historians like Etznab read this, Paul used the word avatar in
          one of his cassette tapes. I learned the word from him and his tape. And also,
          he mispronounced the word. He pronounced the first syllable like "save." So I
          pronounced the word incorrectly for 30 years, all the way up to when the movie
          came out. And just because I am such a perfectionist, I asked a man from India
          who was in an Indian grocery store how it is pronounced in India. He told me the
          standard American pronunciation with the first syllable pronounced like "have."
          I forgot to mention that the word avatar comes from Sanskrit; that's why I
          assumed that a person from India would know how to pronounce it correctly.
          > >
          > > avatar - Merriam-Webster Dictionary
          > > http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/avatar
          > >
          > > Jonathan
        • prometheus_973
          Hello Jonathan, There was something you said that got me thinking about Twitchell s motives for changing things around: Of course, one of the faiths that
          Message 4 of 7 , Aug 30, 2010
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            Hello Jonathan,
            There was something you said that got
            me thinking about Twitchell's motives
            for changing things around:

            "Of course, one of the "faiths" that Paul
            copied was Radhasoami. But look what
            Wikipedia says about it:

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radha_Soami

            "Radhasoami is a faith, considered by
            adherents as a true way to realize God.
            It is neither a religion, nor a caste or
            creed or sect or a division in society."

            To me, this sounds exactly like the way
            Twitchell described Eckankar. David Lane
            must have mentioned this, but it must
            have just flown past me."



            IMO this is probably the way it began with
            Eckankar, except, Twitchell (and Gail) felt
            the need to make some changes in order
            to protect their investment.

            1. Paul had a Five-Year Plan where he was
            going to hand over the ECKankar leadership
            after Five years, but Eckankar took off with
            memberships increasing and money flowing
            in and this caused Paul to renege on this
            promise in year Four. This outraged those
            standing-in-line to take over and, thus,
            this created a power rift and criticism from
            some highly ranked, respected, and influential
            H.I.s.

            2. Around this same time-frame there were
            problems with a former ECKist, John-Roger,
            using Paul's books and EK Discourses to create
            his own religion. However, this guy continued
            to emulate Twitchell, Gross, and even Klemp!

            3. Around this same time-frame (mid 1968)
            Paul was, still, being criticized by his former
            RUHANI SATSANG members and by his former
            Master Kirpal Singh. This started with PT's
            exaggerations in his (rejected) "The Tiger's
            Fang" manuscript which he had sent to Kirpal
            in order to promote himself for advancement
            (of that org) within the U.S. This, of course,
            was just prior to 1965 and was one reason
            why Gail encouraged Paul to share/sell his
            knowledge and research via intros, memberships,
            tapes, and discourses.

            4. Paul, now, needed to place himself above
            all others, especially, his critics. Paul did this
            by creating the 14th Plane "Mahanta" title
            for himself in January, 1969.

            And, by creating 14 Planes of Initiation he
            not only gave hope in reaching these higher
            planes to placate his Higher Initiates and
            dangle the carrot (higher) in front of them,
            but to also give them an ego boost that made
            them think that their path was the Highest,
            most Exclusive, and Truest one out there.
            After all, he and Gail, were now, in it
            for the long haul, or so he thought.

            Therefore, Paul and Gail, came up with their
            own version of the Hindu Caste System... the
            ECK Initiations! Even to this day only a handful
            of ECKists have ever received the secretive
            9th Initiation... which is odd since the 12th
            isn't a secret!

            However, there is nothing in ECK scripture
            to prevent ECKists (male and female) from
            being made "ECK Masters" (in this lifetime)
            since these 12th Initiates don't have to be
            LEMs! I do predict that Klemp will make
            his wife Joan a 12th, ECK Master, before
            he retires. It could be that he's already
            done this, but hasn't "announced" it to
            the membership. Klemp likes to do the
            20/20 hindsight thing and he has claimed
            in his "Wonderful" book that Joan has,
            supposedly, been introducing ECKists
            to the Mahanta on the "Inner" for
            several years now.

            Unfortunately for ECKists Klemp is selfish
            and fearful to share any of the EK power
            with anyone outside of his current wife.
            Maybe this is how he holds onto her...
            with promises to make her a 12th.

            BTW-Look at how HK handled the situation
            with Darwin. That was ruthless! And, to this
            day Klemp has never acknowledged Darwin
            Gross' death. Klemp had an opportunity to
            make amends and to say some nice things
            about his (our) former Master who handed
            him the Rod of ECK Power. But No! Klemp's
            omission of those EK Virtues showed another
            side to him that most ECKists would have
            never seen otherwise. Still, ECKists have
            closed their eyes to Klemp's negative behaviour,

            And, look at those searches and Metal Detectors
            for HK's Saturday evening talk at major ECK
            Seminars. This shows his level of Fear as well
            and this attachment is a Passion of the Mind.

            Thus, Klemp has not only perpetuated PT's
            ECK Initiation Caste System, but has limited
            it due to his own narcissism. HK never learned
            how to share and has always been arrogant,
            angry, critical of others, and a poor listener
            and a poor loser... look at those old ping-pong
            stories of HK's! All in all, this shows that Klemp
            is not qualified to be the leader of anything
            that should resemble "spirituality." Talk is
            cheap and that's all he's got... along with the
            delusional dreams and imaginings of his brain-
            washed and needy followers. Yes, he's smiling
            all the way to the Bank and back again and again.

            Prometheus


            *************************************************
            [What makes Klemp a Prophet... a second book?]

            Prometheus wrote:

            Hello Jonathan, Avonblue, and All,

            Actually, when I joined, Eckankar was being referred
            to as a "spiritual path" and the term "religion" was
            avoided because we still had a bad taste in our
            mouths about "religion."

            Yes, I did the Cayce (A.R.E.) thing, the TM thing
            and several others. It is interesting that even to
            this day most TMers will say that TM is Not a religion.
            It's a scientific method to reduce stress. ROFLMAO!
            Actually it does work to reduce stress, but secretly
            one is praying to Hindu gods! Maharishi was a
            conman who knew how to (covertly) promote a
            religion to the Western mindset. And, some of the
            ritual for receiving a mantra is very similar to what
            one does at an ECK initiation.

            BTW- It was mentioned as to what the Eckankar
            site looks like now. But, look at how long it took!
            I remember that I was still getting publications
            from TM for about ten years (I couldn't get rid
            of them... they'd track me down) into the 1980s
            and everything was printed in Gold Leaf. Look at
            how long it took Eckankar (Klemp) to change the
            format of the ECK pubs. Weren't the EK publications
            changed to a Gold Leaf look around 1990? Strange
            that he copied TM's look. That's why I said that
            Klemp seems conflicted. HK goes back to his
            familiar Lutheran roots while, also, following
            PT's hodge-podge of Eastern thought. That's
            another thing. Eckankar is a hodge-podge
            religion, therefore, why aren't other perspectives
            permitted? Klemp is the only one who gets to
            say how it is and what you're to say and believe.

            Prometheus

            jonathanjohns wrote:
            Re: What Makes Klemp a Prophet... a second book?

            You reminded me of something very important that I have never mentioned on any
            message board. You said that "Religion" was becoming a bad word. What I wanted
            to mention is that if Eckankar was calling itself a religion in 1979 when I
            joined, I would have never joined. The reason is because as you put it,
            "religion" was a bad word for me. I was very turned off by all religions.

            The interesting thing is that TM had the same by-line (We are not a religion).

            Of course, one of the "faiths" that Paul copied was Radhasoami. But look what
            Wikipedia says about it:

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radha_Soami
            "Radhasoami is a faith, considered by adherents as a true way to realize God. It
            is neither a religion, nor a caste or creed or sect or a division in society."

            To me, this sounds exactly like the way Twitchell described Eckankar. Dvaid Lane
            must have mentioned this, but it must have just flown past me.

            Jonathan

            avonblue wrote:
            >
            >
            > Good information Jonathan. Twitchell rode the popular (although esoteric)
            back of Scientology, Sant Mat, Edgar Cayce, etc. in the 60's to build his new
            "path". " Religion" was becoming a bad word. Look at the eckankar site now!
            From the soft pastel colors, gold highlights, clean-cut smiling faces - it looks
            like a Christian Easter mass announcement. Paul is probably rolling in his
            proverbial grave. I'm not sure this new look reflects the consciousness of the
            age, as eckists are led to believe, but more the consciousness of a mid-western
            man trying to save a dying "religion".
            >
            > AB
            >
            >
            jonathanjohns wrote:
            > >
            > > Prometheus,
            > >
            > > I can't answer your question about what makes Klemp a prophet, but I would
            like to comment on two other things related to Eckankar's calling Klemp a
            prophet.
            > >
            > > First of all, Eckankar could easily make Klemps' weekly radio broadcast in
            Chanhassen available on Eckankar.org. I haven't actually looked there, but I am
            assuming that it is not there. Or they could even make mp3s of the broadcast and
            distribute them for free on Eckankar.org. (Ha ha! Fat chance of Eckankar giving
            something away for free!)
            > >
            > > Secondly, "prophet" is a term used widely by Christianity. Islam obviously
            uses it too, but that is a translation from Middle Eastern languages. So I see
            Eckankar's use of the term prophet as applied to HK as another example of
            Eckankar imitating Christianity in order to make themselves more appealing to
            people of Christian ancestry.
            > >
            > > Twitchell used terms like "satguru" and even "avatar," and probably other
            words of Indian origin. Those terms tend to color Eckankar as a religion from
            India. Eckankar is from India, of course, but Eckankar wants to de-emphasize
            that in its initial portrayal of itself to potential new members. So using the
            term "prophet" allows Eckankar to further distance itself from Paul's
            "India-colored" version of Eckankar. Paul's version of Eckankar actually worked
            for Eckankar in the 60s and 70s when the Beatles and others were turning to
            eastern religions such as Maharishi's Transcendental Meditation (TM). But today,
            Eckankar continues to distance itself from that image, at least in its initial
            presentation to non-members.
            > >
            > > So using a Christian term and avoiding an Indian term is really part of the
            same process. The Christian term cancels out any weird-sounding East Indian term
            like "Mahanta." Of course, new members do find out the truth eventually.
            > >
            > > In case any historians like Etznab read this, Paul used the word avatar in
            one of his cassette tapes. I learned the word from him and his tape. And also,
            he mispronounced the word. He pronounced the first syllable like "save." So I
            pronounced the word incorrectly for 30 years, all the way up to when the movie
            came out. And just because I am such a perfectionist, I asked a man from India
            who was in an Indian grocery store how it is pronounced in India. He told me the
            standard American pronunciation with the first syllable pronounced like "have."
            I forgot to mention that the word avatar comes from Sanskrit; that's why I
            assumed that a person from India would know how to pronounce it correctly.
            > >
            > > avatar - Merriam-Webster Dictionary
            > > http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/avatar
            > >
            > > Jonathan
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