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What Makes Klemp a Prophet... a second book?

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  • prometheus_973
    I m just curious about HK s claim. What has he really done to justify this claim versus that of a common preacher? Actually, preachers are heard more often
    Message 1 of 7 , Aug 24, 2010
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      I'm just curious about HK's claim.
      What has he really done to justify
      this claim versus that of a common
      preacher? Actually, preachers are
      heard more often than Klemp. Where's
      his radio show for a real time message?
      How often does he show up at Worship
      Services? Not weekly! But he should!

      Most of the time ECKists hear or read
      about something that was spoken or
      written about months ago. Where's
      living in the Present moment "the Now"
      with ECKists? They've been conditioned
      and have acclimated themselves to live
      with a double standard and a lie.

      Klemp uses this "Prophet" claim a second
      time in his new "Modern Prophet" Q&A book.
      But, once again, this new book simply shows
      Klemp is taking a "Modern" approach to gain
      more "Profits" (and accolades) for himself.

      Prometheus
    • jonathanjohns96
      Prometheus, I can t answer your question about what makes Klemp a prophet, but I would like to comment on two other things related to Eckankar s calling Klemp
      Message 2 of 7 , Aug 24, 2010
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        Prometheus,

        I can't answer your question about what makes Klemp a prophet, but I would like to comment on two other things related to Eckankar's calling Klemp a prophet.

        First of all, Eckankar could easily make Klemps' weekly radio broadcast in Chanhassen available on Eckankar.org. I haven't actually looked there, but I am assuming that it is not there. Or they could even make mp3s of the broadcast and distribute them for free on Eckankar.org. (Ha ha! Fat chance of Eckankar giving something away for free!)

        Secondly, "prophet" is a term used widely by Christianity. Islam obviously uses it too, but that is a translation from Middle Eastern languages. So I see Eckankar's use of the term prophet as applied to HK as another example of Eckankar imitating Christianity in order to make themselves more appealing to people of Christian ancestry.

        Twitchell used terms like "satguru" and even "avatar," and probably other words of Indian origin. Those terms tend to color Eckankar as a religion from India. Eckankar is from India, of course, but Eckankar wants to de-emphasize that in its initial portrayal of itself to potential new members. So using the term "prophet" allows Eckankar to further distance itself from Paul's "India-colored" version of Eckankar. Paul's version of Eckankar actually worked for Eckankar in the 60s and 70s when the Beatles and others were turning to eastern religions such as Maharishi's Transcendental Meditation (TM). But today, Eckankar continues to distance itself from that image, at least in its initial presentation to non-members.

        So using a Christian term and avoiding an Indian term is really part of the same process. The Christian term cancels out any weird-sounding East Indian term like "Mahanta." Of course, new members do find out the truth eventually.

        In case any historians like Etznab read this, Paul used the word avatar in one of his cassette tapes. I learned the word from him and his tape. And also, he mispronounced the word. He pronounced the first syllable like "save." So I pronounced the word incorrectly for 30 years, all the way up to when the movie came out. And just because I am such a perfectionist, I asked a man from India who was in an Indian grocery store how it is pronounced in India. He told me the standard American pronunciation with the first syllable pronounced like "have." I forgot to mention that the word avatar comes from Sanskrit; that's why I assumed that a person from India would know how to pronounce it correctly.

        avatar - Merriam-Webster Dictionary
        http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/avatar

        Jonathan
      • avonblue1212
        Good information Jonathan. Twitchell rode the popular (although esoteric) back of Scientology, Sant Mat, Edgar Cayce, etc. in the 60 s to build his new
        Message 3 of 7 , Aug 24, 2010
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          Good information Jonathan. Twitchell rode the popular (although esoteric) back of Scientology, Sant Mat, Edgar Cayce, etc. in the 60's to build his new "path". " Religion" was becoming a bad word. Look at the eckankar site now! From the soft pastel colors, gold highlights, clean-cut smiling faces - it looks like a Christian Easter mass announcement. Paul is probably rolling in his proverbial grave. I'm not sure this new look reflects the consciousness of the age, as eckists are led to believe, but more the consciousness of a mid-western man trying to save a dying "religion".

          AB


          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96" <jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:
          >
          > Prometheus,
          >
          > I can't answer your question about what makes Klemp a prophet, but I would like to comment on two other things related to Eckankar's calling Klemp a prophet.
          >
          > First of all, Eckankar could easily make Klemps' weekly radio broadcast in Chanhassen available on Eckankar.org. I haven't actually looked there, but I am assuming that it is not there. Or they could even make mp3s of the broadcast and distribute them for free on Eckankar.org. (Ha ha! Fat chance of Eckankar giving something away for free!)
          >
          > Secondly, "prophet" is a term used widely by Christianity. Islam obviously uses it too, but that is a translation from Middle Eastern languages. So I see Eckankar's use of the term prophet as applied to HK as another example of Eckankar imitating Christianity in order to make themselves more appealing to people of Christian ancestry.
          >
          > Twitchell used terms like "satguru" and even "avatar," and probably other words of Indian origin. Those terms tend to color Eckankar as a religion from India. Eckankar is from India, of course, but Eckankar wants to de-emphasize that in its initial portrayal of itself to potential new members. So using the term "prophet" allows Eckankar to further distance itself from Paul's "India-colored" version of Eckankar. Paul's version of Eckankar actually worked for Eckankar in the 60s and 70s when the Beatles and others were turning to eastern religions such as Maharishi's Transcendental Meditation (TM). But today, Eckankar continues to distance itself from that image, at least in its initial presentation to non-members.
          >
          > So using a Christian term and avoiding an Indian term is really part of the same process. The Christian term cancels out any weird-sounding East Indian term like "Mahanta." Of course, new members do find out the truth eventually.
          >
          > In case any historians like Etznab read this, Paul used the word avatar in one of his cassette tapes. I learned the word from him and his tape. And also, he mispronounced the word. He pronounced the first syllable like "save." So I pronounced the word incorrectly for 30 years, all the way up to when the movie came out. And just because I am such a perfectionist, I asked a man from India who was in an Indian grocery store how it is pronounced in India. He told me the standard American pronunciation with the first syllable pronounced like "have." I forgot to mention that the word avatar comes from Sanskrit; that's why I assumed that a person from India would know how to pronounce it correctly.
          >
          > avatar - Merriam-Webster Dictionary
          > http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/avatar
          >
          > Jonathan
          >
        • jonathanjohns96
          You reminded me of something very important that I have never mentioned on any message board. You said that Religion was becoming a bad word. What I wanted
          Message 4 of 7 , Aug 24, 2010
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            You reminded me of something very important that I have never mentioned on any message board. You said that "Religion" was becoming a bad word. What I wanted to mention is that if Eckankar was calling itself a religion in 1979 when I joined, I would have never joined. The reason is because as you put it, "religion" was a bad word for me. I was very turned off by all religions.

            The interesting thing is that TM had the same by-line (We are not a religion).

            Of course, one of the "faiths" that Paul copied was Radhasoami. But look what Wikipedia says about it:

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radha_Soami
            "Radhasoami is a faith, considered by adherents as a true way to realize God. It is neither a religion, nor a caste or creed or sect or a division in society."

            To me, this sounds exactly like the way Twitchell described Eckankar. Dvaid Lane must have mentioned this, but it must have just flown past me.

            Jonathan

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "avonblue1212" <gowiththeflow1212@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > Good information Jonathan. Twitchell rode the popular (although esoteric) back of Scientology, Sant Mat, Edgar Cayce, etc. in the 60's to build his new "path". " Religion" was becoming a bad word. Look at the eckankar site now! From the soft pastel colors, gold highlights, clean-cut smiling faces - it looks like a Christian Easter mass announcement. Paul is probably rolling in his proverbial grave. I'm not sure this new look reflects the consciousness of the age, as eckists are led to believe, but more the consciousness of a mid-western man trying to save a dying "religion".
            >
            > AB
            >
            >
            > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96" <jonathanjohns96@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Prometheus,
            > >
            > > I can't answer your question about what makes Klemp a prophet, but I would like to comment on two other things related to Eckankar's calling Klemp a prophet.
            > >
            > > First of all, Eckankar could easily make Klemps' weekly radio broadcast in Chanhassen available on Eckankar.org. I haven't actually looked there, but I am assuming that it is not there. Or they could even make mp3s of the broadcast and distribute them for free on Eckankar.org. (Ha ha! Fat chance of Eckankar giving something away for free!)
            > >
            > > Secondly, "prophet" is a term used widely by Christianity. Islam obviously uses it too, but that is a translation from Middle Eastern languages. So I see Eckankar's use of the term prophet as applied to HK as another example of Eckankar imitating Christianity in order to make themselves more appealing to people of Christian ancestry.
            > >
            > > Twitchell used terms like "satguru" and even "avatar," and probably other words of Indian origin. Those terms tend to color Eckankar as a religion from India. Eckankar is from India, of course, but Eckankar wants to de-emphasize that in its initial portrayal of itself to potential new members. So using the term "prophet" allows Eckankar to further distance itself from Paul's "India-colored" version of Eckankar. Paul's version of Eckankar actually worked for Eckankar in the 60s and 70s when the Beatles and others were turning to eastern religions such as Maharishi's Transcendental Meditation (TM). But today, Eckankar continues to distance itself from that image, at least in its initial presentation to non-members.
            > >
            > > So using a Christian term and avoiding an Indian term is really part of the same process. The Christian term cancels out any weird-sounding East Indian term like "Mahanta." Of course, new members do find out the truth eventually.
            > >
            > > In case any historians like Etznab read this, Paul used the word avatar in one of his cassette tapes. I learned the word from him and his tape. And also, he mispronounced the word. He pronounced the first syllable like "save." So I pronounced the word incorrectly for 30 years, all the way up to when the movie came out. And just because I am such a perfectionist, I asked a man from India who was in an Indian grocery store how it is pronounced in India. He told me the standard American pronunciation with the first syllable pronounced like "have." I forgot to mention that the word avatar comes from Sanskrit; that's why I assumed that a person from India would know how to pronounce it correctly.
            > >
            > > avatar - Merriam-Webster Dictionary
            > > http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/avatar
            > >
            > > Jonathan
            > >
            >
          • prometheus_973
            Hello Jonathan and All, In Difficulties Paul was referred to as a saviour. Actually, HK s Modern Prophet designation reminds me more of Islam s use of
            Message 5 of 7 , Aug 27, 2010
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              Hello Jonathan and All,
              In "Difficulties" Paul was
              referred to as a "saviour."

              Actually, HK's "Modern Prophet"
              designation reminds me more
              of Islam's use of the term, as
              well as, the Mormon use of
              "Prophet." Of course HK is a
              14th Plane God while these
              others are relegated to the
              lower planes ruled by Satan
              (i.e. the Devil, Kal).

              Therefore, (IMO) I see less
              connection to Christianity when
              HK uses "Prophet" to describe
              himself. I see it as more of a
              term a cultist would use. I think
              he's conflicted and is doing this
              because he wants to play down
              the "Mahanta" title since the so-
              called Mahanta is 10 Planes above
              the "God" that every other religion
              prays to and worships... this is
              a much higher status than that
              Jesus or Mohamed.

              And, let's face it, Klemp just can't
              live up to the Mahanta Job Description.
              Maybe that's the real reason he
              plays it down. I still don't see why
              ECKists haven't questioned HK's
              qualifications. According to the
              Shariyat 1 he (the Mahanta) was
              to have had a virgin birth. Harold
              was the second child born by his
              mother and was not adopted!
              Thus, Twitchell has been the only
              Mahanta to this date!

              However, that brings up another
              discussion. The Shariyats are said
              to have been merely "transcribed"
              by Twitchell. The original author
              of Book One is listed as Fubbi and
              Book Two's author is listed as Yaubl.
              I wonder why Rebazar didn't dictate
              a Shariyat to Twit?

              Anyway, why are these Eckankar Holy
              Books offered to the public andr to lower
              initiates? Nothing can be reinterpreted
              or viewed from another perspective as
              it is with the Christian Bible. Every
              scriptural interpretation or dream, etc.
              must be validated and approved by Klemp
              before it can be "taught" and/or promoted.
              Klemp has total control. Therefore, why
              even offer this EK Scripture to the EK
              Membership let alone to the general public?

              Yes, ECKankar practices bait and switch.
              One doesn't discover this, and the implications,
              until one becomes indoctrinated and
              brainwashed via trusting all of those
              smiling faces.

              Prometheus

              jonathanjohns wrote:
              Prometheus,

              I can't answer your question about what makes Klemp a prophet, but I would like
              to comment on two other things related to Eckankar's calling Klemp a prophet.

              First of all, Eckankar could easily make Klemps' weekly radio broadcast in
              Chanhassen available on Eckankar.org. I haven't actually looked there, but I am
              assuming that it is not there. Or they could even make mp3s of the broadcast and
              distribute them for free on Eckankar.org. (Ha ha! Fat chance of Eckankar giving
              something away for free!)

              Secondly, "prophet" is a term used widely by Christianity. Islam obviously uses
              it too, but that is a translation from Middle Eastern languages. So I see
              Eckankar's use of the term prophet as applied to HK as another example of
              Eckankar imitating Christianity in order to make themselves more appealing to
              people of Christian ancestry.

              Twitchell used terms like "satguru" and even "avatar," and probably other words
              of Indian origin. Those terms tend to color Eckankar as a religion from India.
              Eckankar is from India, of course, but Eckankar wants to de-emphasize that in
              its initial portrayal of itself to potential new members. So using the term
              "prophet" allows Eckankar to further distance itself from Paul's "India-colored"
              version of Eckankar. Paul's version of Eckankar actually worked for Eckankar in
              the 60s and 70s when the Beatles and others were turning to eastern religions
              such as Maharishi's Transcendental Meditation (TM). But today, Eckankar
              continues to distance itself from that image, at least in its initial
              presentation to non-members.

              So using a Christian term and avoiding an Indian term is really part of the same
              process. The Christian term cancels out any weird-sounding East Indian term like
              "Mahanta." Of course, new members do find out the truth eventually.

              In case any historians like Etznab read this, Paul used the word avatar in one
              of his cassette tapes. I learned the word from him and his tape. And also, he
              mispronounced the word. He pronounced the first syllable like "save." So I
              pronounced the word incorrectly for 30 years, all the way up to when the movie
              came out. And just because I am such a perfectionist, I asked a man from India
              who was in an Indian grocery store how it is pronounced in India. He told me the
              standard American pronunciation with the first syllable pronounced like "have."
              I forgot to mention that the word avatar comes from Sanskrit; that's why I
              assumed that a person from India would know how to pronounce it correctly.

              avatar - Merriam-Webster Dictionary
              http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/avatar

              Jonathan
            • prometheus_973
              Hello Jonathan, Avonblue, and All, Actually, when I joined, Eckankar was being referred to as a spiritual path and the term religion was avoided because we
              Message 6 of 7 , Aug 27, 2010
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                Hello Jonathan, Avonblue, and All,

                Actually, when I joined, Eckankar was being referred
                to as a "spiritual path" and the term "religion" was
                avoided because we still had a bad taste in our
                mouths about "religion."

                Yes, I did the Cayce (A.R.E.) thing, the TM thing
                and several others. It is interesting that even to
                this day most TMers will say that TM is Not a religion.
                It's a scientific method to reduce stress. ROFLMAO!
                Actually it does work to reduce stress, but secretly
                one is praying to Hindu gods! Maharishi was a
                conman who knew how to (covertly) promote a
                religion to the Western mindset. And, some of the
                ritual for receiving a mantra is very similar to what
                one does at an ECK initiation.

                BTW- It was mentioned as to what the Eckankar
                site looks like now. But, look at how long it took!
                I remember that I was still getting publications
                from TM for about ten years (I couldn't get rid
                of them... they'd track me down) into the 1980s
                and everything was printed in Gold Leaf. Look at
                how long it took Eckankar (Klemp) to change the
                format of the ECK pubs. Weren't the EK publications
                changed to a Gold Leaf look around 1990? Strange
                that he copied TM's look. That's why I said that
                Klemp seems conflicted. HK goes back to his
                familiar Lutheran roots while, also, following
                PT's hodge-podge of Eastern thought. That's
                another thing. Eckankar is a hodge-podge
                religion, therefore, why aren't other perspectives
                permitted? Klemp is the only one who gets to
                say how it is and what you're to say and believe.

                Prometheus

                jonathanjohns wrote:
                Re: What Makes Klemp a Prophet... a second book?

                You reminded me of something very important that I have never mentioned on any
                message board. You said that "Religion" was becoming a bad word. What I wanted
                to mention is that if Eckankar was calling itself a religion in 1979 when I
                joined, I would have never joined. The reason is because as you put it,
                "religion" was a bad word for me. I was very turned off by all religions.

                The interesting thing is that TM had the same by-line (We are not a religion).

                Of course, one of the "faiths" that Paul copied was Radhasoami. But look what
                Wikipedia says about it:

                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radha_Soami
                "Radhasoami is a faith, considered by adherents as a true way to realize God. It
                is neither a religion, nor a caste or creed or sect or a division in society."

                To me, this sounds exactly like the way Twitchell described Eckankar. Dvaid Lane
                must have mentioned this, but it must have just flown past me.

                Jonathan

                avonblue wrote:
                >
                >
                > Good information Jonathan. Twitchell rode the popular (although esoteric)
                back of Scientology, Sant Mat, Edgar Cayce, etc. in the 60's to build his new
                "path". " Religion" was becoming a bad word. Look at the eckankar site now!
                From the soft pastel colors, gold highlights, clean-cut smiling faces - it looks
                like a Christian Easter mass announcement. Paul is probably rolling in his
                proverbial grave. I'm not sure this new look reflects the consciousness of the
                age, as eckists are led to believe, but more the consciousness of a mid-western
                man trying to save a dying "religion".
                >
                > AB
                >
                >
                jonathanjohns wrote:
                > >
                > > Prometheus,
                > >
                > > I can't answer your question about what makes Klemp a prophet, but I would
                like to comment on two other things related to Eckankar's calling Klemp a
                prophet.
                > >
                > > First of all, Eckankar could easily make Klemps' weekly radio broadcast in
                Chanhassen available on Eckankar.org. I haven't actually looked there, but I am
                assuming that it is not there. Or they could even make mp3s of the broadcast and
                distribute them for free on Eckankar.org. (Ha ha! Fat chance of Eckankar giving
                something away for free!)
                > >
                > > Secondly, "prophet" is a term used widely by Christianity. Islam obviously
                uses it too, but that is a translation from Middle Eastern languages. So I see
                Eckankar's use of the term prophet as applied to HK as another example of
                Eckankar imitating Christianity in order to make themselves more appealing to
                people of Christian ancestry.
                > >
                > > Twitchell used terms like "satguru" and even "avatar," and probably other
                words of Indian origin. Those terms tend to color Eckankar as a religion from
                India. Eckankar is from India, of course, but Eckankar wants to de-emphasize
                that in its initial portrayal of itself to potential new members. So using the
                term "prophet" allows Eckankar to further distance itself from Paul's
                "India-colored" version of Eckankar. Paul's version of Eckankar actually worked
                for Eckankar in the 60s and 70s when the Beatles and others were turning to
                eastern religions such as Maharishi's Transcendental Meditation (TM). But today,
                Eckankar continues to distance itself from that image, at least in its initial
                presentation to non-members.
                > >
                > > So using a Christian term and avoiding an Indian term is really part of the
                same process. The Christian term cancels out any weird-sounding East Indian term
                like "Mahanta." Of course, new members do find out the truth eventually.
                > >
                > > In case any historians like Etznab read this, Paul used the word avatar in
                one of his cassette tapes. I learned the word from him and his tape. And also,
                he mispronounced the word. He pronounced the first syllable like "save." So I
                pronounced the word incorrectly for 30 years, all the way up to when the movie
                came out. And just because I am such a perfectionist, I asked a man from India
                who was in an Indian grocery store how it is pronounced in India. He told me the
                standard American pronunciation with the first syllable pronounced like "have."
                I forgot to mention that the word avatar comes from Sanskrit; that's why I
                assumed that a person from India would know how to pronounce it correctly.
                > >
                > > avatar - Merriam-Webster Dictionary
                > > http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/avatar
                > >
                > > Jonathan
              • prometheus_973
                Hello Jonathan, There was something you said that got me thinking about Twitchell s motives for changing things around: Of course, one of the faiths that
                Message 7 of 7 , Aug 30, 2010
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                  Hello Jonathan,
                  There was something you said that got
                  me thinking about Twitchell's motives
                  for changing things around:

                  "Of course, one of the "faiths" that Paul
                  copied was Radhasoami. But look what
                  Wikipedia says about it:

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radha_Soami

                  "Radhasoami is a faith, considered by
                  adherents as a true way to realize God.
                  It is neither a religion, nor a caste or
                  creed or sect or a division in society."

                  To me, this sounds exactly like the way
                  Twitchell described Eckankar. David Lane
                  must have mentioned this, but it must
                  have just flown past me."



                  IMO this is probably the way it began with
                  Eckankar, except, Twitchell (and Gail) felt
                  the need to make some changes in order
                  to protect their investment.

                  1. Paul had a Five-Year Plan where he was
                  going to hand over the ECKankar leadership
                  after Five years, but Eckankar took off with
                  memberships increasing and money flowing
                  in and this caused Paul to renege on this
                  promise in year Four. This outraged those
                  standing-in-line to take over and, thus,
                  this created a power rift and criticism from
                  some highly ranked, respected, and influential
                  H.I.s.

                  2. Around this same time-frame there were
                  problems with a former ECKist, John-Roger,
                  using Paul's books and EK Discourses to create
                  his own religion. However, this guy continued
                  to emulate Twitchell, Gross, and even Klemp!

                  3. Around this same time-frame (mid 1968)
                  Paul was, still, being criticized by his former
                  RUHANI SATSANG members and by his former
                  Master Kirpal Singh. This started with PT's
                  exaggerations in his (rejected) "The Tiger's
                  Fang" manuscript which he had sent to Kirpal
                  in order to promote himself for advancement
                  (of that org) within the U.S. This, of course,
                  was just prior to 1965 and was one reason
                  why Gail encouraged Paul to share/sell his
                  knowledge and research via intros, memberships,
                  tapes, and discourses.

                  4. Paul, now, needed to place himself above
                  all others, especially, his critics. Paul did this
                  by creating the 14th Plane "Mahanta" title
                  for himself in January, 1969.

                  And, by creating 14 Planes of Initiation he
                  not only gave hope in reaching these higher
                  planes to placate his Higher Initiates and
                  dangle the carrot (higher) in front of them,
                  but to also give them an ego boost that made
                  them think that their path was the Highest,
                  most Exclusive, and Truest one out there.
                  After all, he and Gail, were now, in it
                  for the long haul, or so he thought.

                  Therefore, Paul and Gail, came up with their
                  own version of the Hindu Caste System... the
                  ECK Initiations! Even to this day only a handful
                  of ECKists have ever received the secretive
                  9th Initiation... which is odd since the 12th
                  isn't a secret!

                  However, there is nothing in ECK scripture
                  to prevent ECKists (male and female) from
                  being made "ECK Masters" (in this lifetime)
                  since these 12th Initiates don't have to be
                  LEMs! I do predict that Klemp will make
                  his wife Joan a 12th, ECK Master, before
                  he retires. It could be that he's already
                  done this, but hasn't "announced" it to
                  the membership. Klemp likes to do the
                  20/20 hindsight thing and he has claimed
                  in his "Wonderful" book that Joan has,
                  supposedly, been introducing ECKists
                  to the Mahanta on the "Inner" for
                  several years now.

                  Unfortunately for ECKists Klemp is selfish
                  and fearful to share any of the EK power
                  with anyone outside of his current wife.
                  Maybe this is how he holds onto her...
                  with promises to make her a 12th.

                  BTW-Look at how HK handled the situation
                  with Darwin. That was ruthless! And, to this
                  day Klemp has never acknowledged Darwin
                  Gross' death. Klemp had an opportunity to
                  make amends and to say some nice things
                  about his (our) former Master who handed
                  him the Rod of ECK Power. But No! Klemp's
                  omission of those EK Virtues showed another
                  side to him that most ECKists would have
                  never seen otherwise. Still, ECKists have
                  closed their eyes to Klemp's negative behaviour,

                  And, look at those searches and Metal Detectors
                  for HK's Saturday evening talk at major ECK
                  Seminars. This shows his level of Fear as well
                  and this attachment is a Passion of the Mind.

                  Thus, Klemp has not only perpetuated PT's
                  ECK Initiation Caste System, but has limited
                  it due to his own narcissism. HK never learned
                  how to share and has always been arrogant,
                  angry, critical of others, and a poor listener
                  and a poor loser... look at those old ping-pong
                  stories of HK's! All in all, this shows that Klemp
                  is not qualified to be the leader of anything
                  that should resemble "spirituality." Talk is
                  cheap and that's all he's got... along with the
                  delusional dreams and imaginings of his brain-
                  washed and needy followers. Yes, he's smiling
                  all the way to the Bank and back again and again.

                  Prometheus


                  *************************************************
                  [What makes Klemp a Prophet... a second book?]

                  Prometheus wrote:

                  Hello Jonathan, Avonblue, and All,

                  Actually, when I joined, Eckankar was being referred
                  to as a "spiritual path" and the term "religion" was
                  avoided because we still had a bad taste in our
                  mouths about "religion."

                  Yes, I did the Cayce (A.R.E.) thing, the TM thing
                  and several others. It is interesting that even to
                  this day most TMers will say that TM is Not a religion.
                  It's a scientific method to reduce stress. ROFLMAO!
                  Actually it does work to reduce stress, but secretly
                  one is praying to Hindu gods! Maharishi was a
                  conman who knew how to (covertly) promote a
                  religion to the Western mindset. And, some of the
                  ritual for receiving a mantra is very similar to what
                  one does at an ECK initiation.

                  BTW- It was mentioned as to what the Eckankar
                  site looks like now. But, look at how long it took!
                  I remember that I was still getting publications
                  from TM for about ten years (I couldn't get rid
                  of them... they'd track me down) into the 1980s
                  and everything was printed in Gold Leaf. Look at
                  how long it took Eckankar (Klemp) to change the
                  format of the ECK pubs. Weren't the EK publications
                  changed to a Gold Leaf look around 1990? Strange
                  that he copied TM's look. That's why I said that
                  Klemp seems conflicted. HK goes back to his
                  familiar Lutheran roots while, also, following
                  PT's hodge-podge of Eastern thought. That's
                  another thing. Eckankar is a hodge-podge
                  religion, therefore, why aren't other perspectives
                  permitted? Klemp is the only one who gets to
                  say how it is and what you're to say and believe.

                  Prometheus

                  jonathanjohns wrote:
                  Re: What Makes Klemp a Prophet... a second book?

                  You reminded me of something very important that I have never mentioned on any
                  message board. You said that "Religion" was becoming a bad word. What I wanted
                  to mention is that if Eckankar was calling itself a religion in 1979 when I
                  joined, I would have never joined. The reason is because as you put it,
                  "religion" was a bad word for me. I was very turned off by all religions.

                  The interesting thing is that TM had the same by-line (We are not a religion).

                  Of course, one of the "faiths" that Paul copied was Radhasoami. But look what
                  Wikipedia says about it:

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radha_Soami
                  "Radhasoami is a faith, considered by adherents as a true way to realize God. It
                  is neither a religion, nor a caste or creed or sect or a division in society."

                  To me, this sounds exactly like the way Twitchell described Eckankar. Dvaid Lane
                  must have mentioned this, but it must have just flown past me.

                  Jonathan

                  avonblue wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Good information Jonathan. Twitchell rode the popular (although esoteric)
                  back of Scientology, Sant Mat, Edgar Cayce, etc. in the 60's to build his new
                  "path". " Religion" was becoming a bad word. Look at the eckankar site now!
                  From the soft pastel colors, gold highlights, clean-cut smiling faces - it looks
                  like a Christian Easter mass announcement. Paul is probably rolling in his
                  proverbial grave. I'm not sure this new look reflects the consciousness of the
                  age, as eckists are led to believe, but more the consciousness of a mid-western
                  man trying to save a dying "religion".
                  >
                  > AB
                  >
                  >
                  jonathanjohns wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Prometheus,
                  > >
                  > > I can't answer your question about what makes Klemp a prophet, but I would
                  like to comment on two other things related to Eckankar's calling Klemp a
                  prophet.
                  > >
                  > > First of all, Eckankar could easily make Klemps' weekly radio broadcast in
                  Chanhassen available on Eckankar.org. I haven't actually looked there, but I am
                  assuming that it is not there. Or they could even make mp3s of the broadcast and
                  distribute them for free on Eckankar.org. (Ha ha! Fat chance of Eckankar giving
                  something away for free!)
                  > >
                  > > Secondly, "prophet" is a term used widely by Christianity. Islam obviously
                  uses it too, but that is a translation from Middle Eastern languages. So I see
                  Eckankar's use of the term prophet as applied to HK as another example of
                  Eckankar imitating Christianity in order to make themselves more appealing to
                  people of Christian ancestry.
                  > >
                  > > Twitchell used terms like "satguru" and even "avatar," and probably other
                  words of Indian origin. Those terms tend to color Eckankar as a religion from
                  India. Eckankar is from India, of course, but Eckankar wants to de-emphasize
                  that in its initial portrayal of itself to potential new members. So using the
                  term "prophet" allows Eckankar to further distance itself from Paul's
                  "India-colored" version of Eckankar. Paul's version of Eckankar actually worked
                  for Eckankar in the 60s and 70s when the Beatles and others were turning to
                  eastern religions such as Maharishi's Transcendental Meditation (TM). But today,
                  Eckankar continues to distance itself from that image, at least in its initial
                  presentation to non-members.
                  > >
                  > > So using a Christian term and avoiding an Indian term is really part of the
                  same process. The Christian term cancels out any weird-sounding East Indian term
                  like "Mahanta." Of course, new members do find out the truth eventually.
                  > >
                  > > In case any historians like Etznab read this, Paul used the word avatar in
                  one of his cassette tapes. I learned the word from him and his tape. And also,
                  he mispronounced the word. He pronounced the first syllable like "save." So I
                  pronounced the word incorrectly for 30 years, all the way up to when the movie
                  came out. And just because I am such a perfectionist, I asked a man from India
                  who was in an Indian grocery store how it is pronounced in India. He told me the
                  standard American pronunciation with the first syllable pronounced like "have."
                  I forgot to mention that the word avatar comes from Sanskrit; that's why I
                  assumed that a person from India would know how to pronounce it correctly.
                  > >
                  > > avatar - Merriam-Webster Dictionary
                  > > http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/avatar
                  > >
                  > > Jonathan
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