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Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Look At the Next 2010 ECK Worldwide Seminar

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  • Peter Anton
    Thanks for the elaboration, Pro, but I was hoping for some feedback from someone other than you. No offense, but the opinion of one I ve already heard from
    Message 1 of 9 , Jul 28, 2010
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      Thanks for the elaboration, Pro, but I was hoping for some feedback from someone other than you.  No offense, but the opinion of one I've already heard from does not help me.  I will wait and see if someone else speaks up to see if there will be any useful dialog to keep me here.  I'd normally present some thoughts as seeds for discussion, but I'm still uncertain that it would amount to anymore than fuel for controversy, debate and rants.  Perhaps the Eckist members here are simply keeping an eye on detractor groups and that is partly the reason I dropped in.  I don't have any time for argument about opinions or facts? that people have about the Eckankar movement and organization.  Those are things that only I can and must determine for myself.  If criticism is all this group is all about then I won't be here long.  For now, I will wait until and if I get some other perspectives. 

      Peter

      prometheus_973 wrote:
       

      Hello Peter,
      Please don't hold the group
      to what I wrote in the introduction.
      I would like to address what you
      have written.

      Peter wrote:

      This may be my only post to this
      group before I leave it. We'll see.

      Although Eckankar has been my
      preferred spiritual viewpoint for
      30 years, I have climbed onto the
      fence to look around due to a lack
      of personal experience or direct
      evidence to support claims, or
      should I say simply, the lore which
      surrounds the teachings of Eckankar.

      ME: It does seem as though you've
      been on the fence for some time now.
      I will admit that I was unhappy with
      many things on the business side of
      the org and this always carried over
      to the "spiritual" side. And, there was
      a lot of bait and switch that people
      just gradually accepted and had to
      accept to climb higher after years
      and years. I too was/am a skeptic
      and it took me many years to surrender
      to the mahanta. I'm just glad that
      I was able to retain my sanity.

      P: So I joined this group [ESA] to
      entertain my skeptical side, having
      had a tendency to be a bit too "faithful"
      about things I have yet to gain real
      knowledge of.

      ME: I've always been the skeptic
      and wasn't much of a joiner. I always
      had trouble fully accepting/believing
      the hype. And, I never liked the
      emotional approaches some groups
      took.

      P: Personal experience is, in my mind,
      the only thing that proves anything
      conclusively and then only for the
      person in question. I have no way
      of knowing the reality of other people's
      experience and so I work to have
      respect for the viewpoints of others
      and try to find common areas of
      understanding by offering my
      perspective and learning from the
      (hopefully honest and true) experiences
      of others.

      ME: Yes! Others can help us to get to
      a certain point. But, everything involving
      God or Spirit or Whatever requires subjective
      (personal) experiences in both the outer
      and inner realities of our lives. However,
      one needs to be objective and free of
      religious opinions in order to find Truth.
      Unfortunately, religions (Eckankar) requires
      one to become attached to the opinions
      of the leader (and those "higher" than
      yourself), dogma, laws, rules, guidelines,
      belief, faith, hope, promises, scripture,
      tradition, objects (buildings), ceremonies,
      initiation rank, etc.


      P: So... I am curious whether this group
      holds to its statement:

      "We, also, cover the concerns and
      critical thinking involving the consciousness
      and workings of ALL societies, religions,
      and governments and the world as
      a whole.

      Let's share our opinions, new insights
      & perspectives of NOT ONLY Eckankar,
      but of other religions, organizations,
      governments and their leaders too.
      Be respectful to your fellow site members."

      ME: I can't speak for the group. I wrote
      that long ago and I do sometimes approach
      other topics such as: All Religions Are Scams!
      Basically I wrote that because I thought people
      could tie-in other subjects to the main focus
      which is the Scam of Eckankar which Twitchell
      created and Klemp and Company inherited.

      P: Or... if it is ONLY a negative, reactionary
      and closed-minded forum for disgruntled
      ex-members of Eckankar as also expressed
      in the description and mainly by Prometheus_
      973 in the discussion. If so, I have plenty
      of other better ways to spend my time.

      ME: Actually some members are Not ex-ECKists.
      They are current card carrying ECKists. Some
      just don't post... they Read only, but want the
      member benefits of email notification and
      access to the Files. BTW- We aren't here to
      have a discussion on whether Eckankar or
      Klemp is being truthful or is a valid religion.

      After all, Klemp cannot actually communicate
      with his chelas on the "inner" (as he claims
      with his Mahanta powers) or else he would
      not need to have a computer generated
      initiation list sent to RESAs for their recommendation/
      approval.

      And, why the monthly IROs if there
      is "Inner communication" with the
      All Knowing Master?

      Why aren't there "inner" Seminars, or
      "inner Satsang classes" scheduled for
      local areas? The same goes for "inner
      Book discussions." Where's the proof
      in the pudding for all the claims?

      It's all talk and promises and imagination!
      Sure, some people will see Rebazar or
      other guys before even seeing their pic.
      But, this happens in other religions too
      with seeing Jesus or Buddha or Krishna
      or Kirpal Singh (Paul's real Master), etc.
      etc. And, their stories and miracles are
      better than the ones Eckists have! Why
      is that (Google miracles)? Shouldn't a
      card carrying Eckist have even greater
      miracles and events happen to them
      since they are closer/higher to God?
      One would think so, but No!

      And, of course, the Truth will be
      a "negative" and hurtful view of Eckankar
      as seen by brain-washed ECKists.
      I would have seen it the same way
      at one time and become angry. You
      have to buy into it all for it to "work"
      mentally/spiritually. When a person
      (Eckist) has put in that much time and
      money and effort to make rank. You
      (self/ego) is going to defend your choices
      even though there are things and people
      in the ESC org/church or Satsang Society
      that you don't like or want to work with
      or for.

      The Klemp's getting angry with that Third
      Fill-in Postal Clerk in the 9/200(?) H.I.
      Letter showed that something was still wrong.
      [It's listed in the Files].

      Plus there's the EMR/EMF thing that started
      around 1991 and still bothers Klemp.

      How about the Polarians and Adom and Ede
      and the Garden of Eden Myth? This is printed
      in the Shariyat!

      How about what is written in the Shariyat 1
      about the Virgin Birth of the Mahanta when
      Klemp is the 2nd son? How can HK be the
      Mahanta? Is ECK Scripture wrong? Is it
      negative to mention this?

      There's more of course, but let's face it
      an ECKist cannot ask questions after
      the 2nd initiation due to maintaining the
      Law of Silence (one must go to the inner).
      This is a control tactic of religion. One
      must learn to Surrender, and Service will
      keep you too busy to think critically or
      to ask difficult questions. If questions
      are asked the H.I. grapevine will notify
      the RESA Police and this will cause some
      Eckists to be Black Listed on Initiations
      for at least three-five years or until
      another RESA is chosen.

      Maybe you should find something else
      to occupy your time. Live life! Let go
      and let God!

      Personally, I felt a huge weight (stress)
      lifted from my shoulders when I finally
      made the decision to quit Eckankar.
      It was a wonderful and a spiritual
      experience! But, it was very difficult not
      looking to or asking the mahanta for help.

      I finally looked to my Self and to Spirit.
      This is how I became religion free and
      Spiritually Free. I am my own master
      and I have my own personal religion...
      as it should be.

      But, others need experts and holy men
      to look up to because it helps them to
      believe. Of course, that's what causes the
      problems for everyone else. BTW- The
      social connections can be made outside
      of church and I didn't want to hang out
      with too many Eckists anyway.

      Or, go to the 2010 EWWS and celebrate the
      "Year of the ECK Teacher" again. I hear there
      will be another "Acres of Diamonds Meeting"
      and an ECK "Arahata Skills Workshop" again.
      Oh, and I hear that there will be an "ECK-Vidya
      Workshop" even though Eckankar (Klemp)
      no longer sells PT's ECK-Vidya book. And,
      there's that revisit to the Temple and walking
      the Contemplation Trails (again).

      P: Awaiting any new and enlightening information,
      Peter

      ME: The info has been given. But, one needs
      the ears to hear it and the eyes to see it. You,
      still, might not be ready to go it alone with
      Soul and with Spirit but that's okay... you're
      not alone.

      Prometheus

      prometheus_973 wrote:

      It's the "Year of the Teacher" again.
      However, words have two meanings.
      In Eckankar "Teacher," also, refers to
      or means Arahata and this refers to
      or means a 2nd Initiate. Aren't ECKists
      going backwards? Isn't revisiting the
      past each year considered as "Spiritual
      Devolution versus Evolution?"

      Klemp and Company are substituting
      talk (sharing and stories), social interaction,
      feelings from the 4th "Heart" chakra,
      Temple tours, retraining classes, HU
      chants (with focus on the 6th Chakra)
      and entertainment for Spirituality. It's
      a Physical, Astral, Causal, and Mental
      exercise, especially, when one projects
      expectations via the mind's imagination.
      BTW-All Chakras (even the highest Crown
      Chakra which ECKankar doesn't use)
      are seen by them as being Astral Plane.

      So, after 29 years with Klemp in charge
      ECKists are encouraged to make an
      expensive pilgrimage (during a recession)
      to visit the EK Temple and to see and
      hear the Klempster in person. This
      is odd (or is it? $$$) because one would
      think that "the most advanced spiritual
      path" on the planet would encourage
      "INNER" visitations, meetings, satsangs,
      and Worldwide Seminars!

      Why aren't there "Inner" ECK Worldwide
      Seminars? Aren't ECKists advanced
      enough after all of this time? At least
      have an Inner Worldwide for Higher Initiates...
      right?!

      Aren't ECKists encouraged to visit the
      Physical Plane ECK Temple in Chanhassen
      on the "Inner Plane" as well as other
      Physical Plane and Inner Plane Temples?
      Sure!

      So, why is it necessary to travel to
      Minnesota to see and hear Klemp or
      to visit the EK Temple there? Do ECKists
      need the retraining, or do they need
      to reinforce their delusional beliefs that
      Eckankar and Klemp are so much more
      "advanced" than other religions and
      other religious leaders?

      ECKists need to remember one thing:
      Keep smiling... it looks good and fools
      people!

      Prometheus

    • prometheus_973
      Hello All, I wonder if Klemp will still have the Metal Detectors at the entrance to the main hall for his Saturday night talk? Klemp s Metal Detector policy
      Message 2 of 9 , Jul 28, 2010
      • 0 Attachment
        Hello All,
        I wonder if Klemp will still have the
        Metal Detectors at the entrance to the
        main hall for his Saturday night talk?

        Klemp's Metal Detector policy was
        started right after 9/11/2001, but
        has now become his bi-yearly tradition
        of fear. I say that it's HK's "tradition
        of fear" because the Metal Detectors
        are only there for his Saturday evening
        talk.

        There are no Metal Detectors for workshops
        or for chela meetings. Therefore, the security
        is there to, only, protect Klemp (the Mahanta)
        from harm. Isn't Klemp immortal? And, do
        Muslim terrorists really want to harm Klemp?
        Why? Isn't this way too paranoid? Or, is HK
        claiming that others want to harm him? Why
        not let the Powers That Be have their way?
        Let Fate or Karma decide, or let the Mahanta
        protect himself! If he can't protect himself
        then how can he "protect" ECKists?

        Okay, one more thing. Klemp's image.
        Why does he still have that younger
        looking photo for the Wisdom Notes
        and for the Letter of Light? This is vanity!

        But really, tell me about the Virgin Birth
        of the Mahanta that's mentioned in the
        Shariyat 1. Is Klemp really the Mahanta?
        Why, because he says so?

        HK's the second born (Dwayne was the
        first born, he died of cancer in the '80s)
        and Twitchell's first Shariyat (dictated by
        Rebazar Tarzs) states that the Mahanta
        is born by a Virgin! Look in the index
        under "Mahanta, birth of."

        However, if he ever needed to explain
        himself what would be HK's damage
        control spin? Klemp has implied and
        even stated that Twitchell was noted,
        early on, for stretching the truth and
        promoting himself. Therefore, Eckists
        should take this "Virgin Birth" requirement
        for the Mahanta with a grain of salt
        and not to take these statements
        (in this Holy Book) too literally!

        But, the Catch-22 is that Klemp
        doesn't have to explain himself.
        He is a 14th initiate and you are
        a _ initiate! Case closed! And,
        don't expect an answer to come
        from the "inner higher planes"
        or from an EK Master or even from
        HK, unless, it has outer physical
        plane approval. Catch-22 again!



        The 2010 ECK Worldwide Seminar
        [more redundancy]

        prometheus wrote:
        >
        > Hello Peter,
        > Please don't hold the group
        > to what I wrote in the introduction.
        > I would like to address what you
        > have written.
        >
        > Peter wrote:
        >
        > This may be my only post to this
        > group before I leave it. We'll see.
        >
        > Although Eckankar has been my
        > preferred spiritual viewpoint for
        > 30 years, I have climbed onto the
        > fence to look around due to a lack
        > of personal experience or direct
        > evidence to support claims, or
        > should I say simply, the lore which
        > surrounds the teachings of Eckankar.
        >
        >
        > ME: It does seem as though you've
        > been on the fence for some time now.
        > I will admit that I was unhappy with
        > many things on the business side of
        > the org and this always carried over
        > to the "spiritual" side. And, there was
        > a lot of bait and switch that people
        > just gradually accepted and had to
        > accept to climb higher after years
        > and years. I too was/am a skeptic
        > and it took me many years to surrender
        > to the mahanta. I'm just glad that
        > I was able to retain my sanity.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > P: So I joined this group [ESA] to
        > entertain my skeptical side, having
        > had a tendency to be a bit too "faithful"
        > about things I have yet to gain real
        > knowledge of.
        >
        > ME: I've always been the skeptic
        > and wasn't much of a joiner. I always
        > had trouble fully accepting/believing
        > the hype. And, I never liked the
        > emotional approaches some groups
        > took.
        >
        > P: Personal experience is, in my mind,
        > the only thing that proves anything
        > conclusively and then only for the
        > person in question. I have no way
        > of knowing the reality of other people's
        > experience and so I work to have
        > respect for the viewpoints of others
        > and try to find common areas of
        > understanding by offering my
        > perspective and learning from the
        > (hopefully honest and true) experiences
        > of others.
        >
        > ME: Yes! Others can help us to get to
        > a certain point. But, everything involving
        > God or Spirit or Whatever requires subjective
        > (personal) experiences in both the outer
        > and inner realities of our lives. However,
        > one needs to be objective and free of
        > religious opinions in order to find Truth.
        > Unfortunately, religions (Eckankar) requires
        > one to become attached to the opinions
        > of the leader (and those "higher" than
        > yourself), dogma, laws, rules, guidelines,
        > belief, faith, hope, promises, scripture,
        > tradition, objects (buildings), ceremonies,
        > initiation rank, etc.
        >
        >
        > P: So... I am curious whether this group
        > holds to its statement:
        >
        > "We, also, cover the concerns and
        > critical thinking involving the consciousness
        > and workings of ALL societies, religions,
        > and governments and the world as
        > a whole.
        >
        > Let's share our opinions, new insights
        > & perspectives of NOT ONLY Eckankar,
        > but of other religions, organizations,
        > governments and their leaders too.
        > Be respectful to your fellow site members."
        >
        >
        >
        > ME: I can't speak for the group. I wrote
        > that long ago and I do sometimes approach
        > other topics such as: All Religions Are Scams!
        > Basically I wrote that because I thought people
        > could tie-in other subjects to the main focus
        > which is the Scam of Eckankar which Twitchell
        > created and Klemp and Company inherited.
        >
        >
        > P: Or... if it is ONLY a negative, reactionary
        > and closed-minded forum for disgruntled
        > ex-members of Eckankar as also expressed
        > in the description and mainly by Prometheus_
        > 973 in the discussion. If so, I have plenty
        > of other better ways to spend my time.
        >
        >
        > ME: Actually some members are Not ex-ECKists.
        > They are current card carrying ECKists. Some
        > just don't post... they Read only, but want the
        > member benefits of email notification and
        > access to the Files. BTW- We aren't here to
        > have a discussion on whether Eckankar or
        > Klemp is being truthful or is a valid religion.
        >
        > After all, Klemp cannot actually communicate
        > with his chelas on the "inner" (as he claims
        > with his Mahanta powers) or else he would
        > not need to have a computer generated
        > initiation list sent to RESAs for their recommendation/
        > approval.
        >
        > And, why the monthly IROs if there
        > is "Inner communication" with the
        > All Knowing Master?
        >
        > Why aren't there "inner" Seminars, or
        > "inner Satsang classes" scheduled for
        > local areas? The same goes for "inner
        > Book discussions." Where's the proof
        > in the pudding for all the claims?
        >
        > It's all talk and promises and imagination!
        > Sure, some people will see Rebazar or
        > other guys before even seeing their pic.
        > But, this happens in other religions too
        > with seeing Jesus or Buddha or Krishna
        > or Kirpal Singh (Paul's real Master), etc.
        > etc. And, their stories and miracles are
        > better than the ones Eckists have! Why
        > is that (Google miracles)? Shouldn't a
        > card carrying Eckist have even greater
        > miracles and events happen to them
        > since they are closer/higher to God?
        > One would think so, but No!
        >
        > And, of course, the Truth will be
        > a "negative" and hurtful view of Eckankar
        > as seen by brain-washed ECKists.
        > I would have seen it the same way
        > at one time and become angry. You
        > have to buy into it all for it to "work"
        > mentally/spiritually. When a person
        > (Eckist) has put in that much time and
        > money and effort to make rank. You
        > (self/ego) is going to defend your choices
        > even though there are things and people
        > in the ESC org/church or Satsang Society
        > that you don't like or want to work with
        > or for.
        >
        > The Klemp's getting angry with that Third
        > Fill-in Postal Clerk in the 9/200(?) H.I.
        > Letter showed that something was still wrong.
        > [It's listed in the Files].
        >
        > Plus there's the EMR/EMF thing that started
        > around 1991 and still bothers Klemp.
        >
        > How about the Polarians and Adom and Ede
        > and the Garden of Eden Myth? This is printed
        > in the Shariyat!
        >
        > How about what is written in the Shariyat 1
        > about the Virgin Birth of the Mahanta when
        > Klemp is the 2nd son? How can HK be the
        > Mahanta? Is ECK Scripture wrong? Is it
        > negative to mention this?
        >
        > There's more of course, but let's face it
        > an ECKist cannot ask questions after
        > the 2nd initiation due to maintaining the
        > Law of Silence (one must go to the inner).
        > This is a control tactic of religion. One
        > must learn to Surrender, and Service will
        > keep you too busy to think critically or
        > to ask difficult questions. If questions
        > are asked the H.I. grapevine will notify
        > the RESA Police and this will cause some
        > Eckists to be Black Listed on Initiations
        > for at least three-five years or until
        > another RESA is chosen.
        >
        > Maybe you should find something else
        > to occupy your time. Live life! Let go
        > and let God!
        >
        > Personally, I felt a huge weight (stress)
        > lifted from my shoulders when I finally
        > made the decision to quit Eckankar.
        > It was a wonderful and a spiritual
        > experience! But, it was very difficult not
        > looking to or asking the mahanta for help.
        >
        > I finally looked to my Self and to Spirit.
        > This is how I became religion free and
        > Spiritually Free. I am my own master
        > and I have my own personal religion...
        > as it should be.
        >
        > But, others need experts and holy men
        > to look up to because it helps them to
        > believe. Of course, that's what causes the
        > problems for everyone else. BTW- The
        > social connections can be made outside
        > of church and I didn't want to hang out
        > with too many Eckists anyway.
        >
        > Or, go to the 2010 EWWS and celebrate the
        > "Year of the ECK Teacher" again. I hear there
        > will be another "Acres of Diamonds Meeting"
        > and an ECK "Arahata Skills Workshop" again.
        > Oh, and I hear that there will be an "ECK-Vidya
        > Workshop" even though Eckankar (Klemp)
        > no longer sells PT's ECK-Vidya book. And,
        > there's that revisit to the Temple and walking
        > the Contemplation Trails (again).
        >
        >
        >
        > P: Awaiting any new and enlightening information,
        > Peter
        >
        >
        > ME: The info has been given. But, one needs
        > the ears to hear it and the eyes to see it. You,
        > still, might not be ready to go it alone with
        > Soul and with Spirit but that's okay... you're
        > not alone.
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
        >
        > prometheus_973 wrote:
        >
        > It's the "Year of the Teacher" again.
        > However, words have two meanings.
        > In Eckankar "Teacher," also, refers to
        > or means Arahata and this refers to
        > or means a 2nd Initiate. Aren't ECKists
        > going backwards? Isn't revisiting the
        > past each year considered as "Spiritual
        > Devolution versus Evolution?"
        >
        > Klemp and Company are substituting
        > talk (sharing and stories), social interaction,
        > feelings from the 4th "Heart" chakra,
        > Temple tours, retraining classes, HU
        > chants (with focus on the 6th Chakra)
        > and entertainment for Spirituality. It's
        > a Physical, Astral, Causal, and Mental
        > exercise, especially, when one projects
        > expectations via the mind's imagination.
        > BTW-All Chakras (even the highest Crown
        > Chakra which ECKankar doesn't use)
        > are seen by them as being Astral Plane.
        >
        > So, after 29 years with Klemp in charge
        > ECKists are encouraged to make an
        > expensive pilgrimage (during a recession)
        > to visit the EK Temple and to see and
        > hear the Klempster in person. This
        > is odd (or is it? $$$) because one would
        > think that "the most advanced spiritual
        > path" on the planet would encourage
        > "INNER" visitations, meetings, satsangs,
        > and Worldwide Seminars!
        >
        > Why aren't there "Inner" ECK Worldwide
        > Seminars? Aren't ECKists advanced
        > enough after all of this time? At least
        > have an Inner Worldwide for Higher Initiates...
        > right?!
        >
        > Aren't ECKists encouraged to visit the
        > Physical Plane ECK Temple in Chanhassen
        > on the "Inner Plane" as well as other
        > Physical Plane and Inner Plane Temples?
        > Sure!
        >
        > So, why is it necessary to travel to
        > Minnesota to see and hear Klemp or
        > to visit the EK Temple there? Do ECKists
        > need the retraining, or do they need
        > to reinforce their delusional beliefs that
        > Eckankar and Klemp are so much more
        > "advanced" than other religions and
        > other religious leaders?
        >
        > ECKists need to remember one thing:
        > Keep smiling... it looks good and fools
        > people!
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
      • ctecvie
        HI PETER SO GREAT TO SEE YOU HERE!!! whatever you decide ... you are welcome ... :-)) For me, life has got an extra dimension since leaving and I think it s
        Message 3 of 9 , Jul 28, 2010
        • 0 Attachment
          HI PETER

          SO GREAT TO SEE YOU HERE!!!
          whatever you decide ... you are welcome ... :-))

          For me, life has got an extra dimension since leaving and I think it's just so great to be out. I only have to respect - and maybe overcome - my own limits and not those of someone else ...

          Like you, I have a tendency of being a bit to "faithful" about some things, but eckankar has taught me a good lesson about that and that's good! I can say that I'll never join again another religion or cult or whatever ... I'm just enjoying life so much and am finding the love and the surprises and the protection by life itself - it's not necessary to have a mahanta...

          So, from my experience I can say that I have better experiences now that I am out of eckankar (it will be 6 years soon - time is flying!) than I ever had when I was still in the cult!

          Enjoy reading this and other critical sites and take care! Hope to read more from you!
          Ingrid

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Peter Anton <peterantonrev@...> wrote:
          >
          > This may be my only post to this group before I leave it. We'll see.
          > Although Eckankar has been my preferred spiritual viewpoint for 30
          > years, I have climbed onto the fence to look around due to a lack of
          > personal experience or direct evidence to support claims, or should I
          > say simply, the lore which surrounds the teachings of Eckankar. So I
          > joined this group to entertain my skeptical side, having had a tendency
          > to be a bit too "faithful" about things I have yet to gain real
          > knowledge of. Personal experience is, in my mind, the only thing that
          > proves anything conclusively and then only for the person in question.
          > I have no way of knowing the reality of other people's experience and so
          > I work to have respect for the viewpoints of others and try to find
          > common areas of understanding by offering my perspective and learning
          > from the (hopefully honest and true) experiences of others.
          >
          > So... I am curious whether this group holds to its statement:
          >
          > "We, also, cover the concerns and critical thinking involving the
          > consciousness and workings of ALL societies, religions, and governments
          > and the world as a whole.
          >
          > Let's share our opinions, new insights & perspectives of NOT ONLY
          > Eckankar, but of other religions, organizations, governments and their
          > leaders too. Be respectful to your fellow site members."
          >
          > Or... if it is ONLY a negative, reactionary and closed-minded forum for
          > disgruntled ex-members of Eckankar as also expressed in the description
          > and mainly by Prometheus_973 in the discussion. If so, I have plenty of
          > other better ways to spend my time.
          >
          > Awaiting any new and enlightening information,
          > Peter
          >
          >
          > prometheus_973 wrote:
          > >
          > > It's the "Year of the Teacher" again.
          > > However, words have two meanings.
          > > In Eckankar "Teacher," also, refers to
          > > or means Arahata and this refers to
          > > or means a 2nd Initiate. Aren't ECKists
          > > going backwards? Isn't revisiting the
          > > past each year considered as "Spiritual
          > > Devolution versus Evolution?"
          > >
          > > Klemp and Company are substituting
          > > talk (sharing and stories), social interaction,
          > > feelings from the 4th "Heart" chakra,
          > > Temple tours, retraining classes, HU
          > > chants (with focus on the 6th Chakra)
          > > and entertainment for Spirituality. It's
          > > a Physical, Astral, Causal, and Mental
          > > exercise, especially, when one projects
          > > expectations via the mind's imagination.
          > > BTW-All Chakras (even the highest Crown
          > > Chakra which ECKankar doesn't use)
          > > are seen by them as being Astral Plane.
          > >
          > > So, after 29 years with Klemp in charge
          > > ECKists are encouraged to make an
          > > expensive pilgrimage (during a recession)
          > > to visit the EK Temple and to see and
          > > hear the Klempster in person. This
          > > is odd (or is it? $$$) because one would
          > > think that "the most advanced spiritual
          > > path" on the planet would encourage
          > > "INNER" visitations, meetings, satsangs,
          > > and Worldwide Seminars!
          > >
          > > Why aren't there "Inner" ECK Worldwide
          > > Seminars? Aren't ECKists advanced
          > > enough after all of this time? At least
          > > have an Inner Worldwide for Higher Initiates...
          > > right?!
          > >
          > > Aren't ECKists encouraged to visit the
          > > Physical Plane ECK Temple in Chanhassen
          > > on the "Inner Plane" as well as other
          > > Physical Plane and Inner Plane Temples?
          > > Sure!
          > >
          > > So, why is it necessary to travel to
          > > Minnesota to see and hear Klemp or
          > > to visit the EK Temple there? Do ECKists
          > > need the retraining, or do they need
          > > to reinforce their delusional beliefs that
          > > Eckankar and Klemp are so much more
          > > "advanced" than other religions and
          > > other religious leaders?
          > >
          > > ECKists need to remember one thing:
          > > Keep smiling... it looks good and fools
          > > people!
          > >
          > > Prometheus
          > >
          > >
          >
        • mishmisha9
          Hi, Peter! Welcome to the site. I m not really into discussing every or any other religions but in just brief passing. I m just not interested in the man made
          Message 4 of 9 , Jul 29, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi, Peter!

            Welcome to the site. I'm not really into discussing every or any
            other religions but in just brief passing. I'm just not interested in
            the man made religions that in my opinion are basically presented
            to keep the masses of people under control by implanting a lot of
            fear and guilt in the followers. Eckankar on the surface may not
            seem to be that way but in reality it is. It diverts one's attention
            for one thing from the real world and it demands time and money
            being expended. But if people enjoy the delusion and feel comfortable
            with it . . . well, okay!

            Anyway, would you like to share what troubles you about eckankar?
            What are you questioning at this point?

            There is a lot of information in the archives . . . hope you will spend
            some time reading. I enjoyed posting my reviews on Klemp's "Those
            Wonderful ECK Masters" . .. to me, that little jewel of a book revealed
            how Klemp manipulates and promotes eckankar's false promises and spins.

            Of course, you are correct that you have to decide for yourself. This site
            shares information about the false and flawed teachings . . . the big
            ones are the lies and plagiarisms.

            As for members being disgruntled . . . what's wrong with that? If you
            feel duped, of course, you will feel disgruntled. Why should members
            feel kindly about the lies and wasted time in eckankar?

            This is not a wishy washy place.

            Take care,
            Mish

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Peter Anton <peterantonrev@...> wrote:
            >
            > Thanks for the elaboration, Pro, but I was hoping for some feedback from
            > someone other than you. No offense, but the opinion of one I've already
            > heard from does not help me. I will wait and see if someone else speaks
            > up to see if there will be any useful dialog to keep me here. I'd
            > normally present some thoughts as seeds for discussion, but I'm still
            > uncertain that it would amount to anymore than fuel for controversy,
            > debate and rants. Perhaps the Eckist members here are simply keeping an
            > eye on detractor groups and that is partly the reason I dropped in. I
            > don't have any time for argument about opinions or facts? that people
            > have about the Eckankar movement and organization. Those are things
            > that only I can and must determine for myself. If criticism is all this
            > group is all about then I won't be here long. For now, I will wait
            > until and if I get some other perspectives.
            >
            > Peter
            >
            > prometheus_973 wrote:
            > >
            > > Hello Peter,
            > > Please don't hold the group
            > > to what I wrote in the introduction.
            > > I would like to address what you
            > > have written.
            > >
            > > Peter wrote:
            > >
            > > This may be my only post to this
            > > group before I leave it. We'll see.
            > >
            > > Although Eckankar has been my
            > > preferred spiritual viewpoint for
            > > 30 years, I have climbed onto the
            > > fence to look around due to a lack
            > > of personal experience or direct
            > > evidence to support claims, or
            > > should I say simply, the lore which
            > > surrounds the teachings of Eckankar.
            > >
            > > ME: It does seem as though you've
            > > been on the fence for some time now.
            > > I will admit that I was unhappy with
            > > many things on the business side of
            > > the org and this always carried over
            > > to the "spiritual" side. And, there was
            > > a lot of bait and switch that people
            > > just gradually accepted and had to
            > > accept to climb higher after years
            > > and years. I too was/am a skeptic
            > > and it took me many years to surrender
            > > to the mahanta. I'm just glad that
            > > I was able to retain my sanity.
            > >
            > > P: So I joined this group [ESA] to
            > > entertain my skeptical side, having
            > > had a tendency to be a bit too "faithful"
            > > about things I have yet to gain real
            > > knowledge of.
            > >
            > > ME: I've always been the skeptic
            > > and wasn't much of a joiner. I always
            > > had trouble fully accepting/believing
            > > the hype. And, I never liked the
            > > emotional approaches some groups
            > > took.
            > >
            > > P: Personal experience is, in my mind,
            > > the only thing that proves anything
            > > conclusively and then only for the
            > > person in question. I have no way
            > > of knowing the reality of other people's
            > > experience and so I work to have
            > > respect for the viewpoints of others
            > > and try to find common areas of
            > > understanding by offering my
            > > perspective and learning from the
            > > (hopefully honest and true) experiences
            > > of others.
            > >
            > > ME: Yes! Others can help us to get to
            > > a certain point. But, everything involving
            > > God or Spirit or Whatever requires subjective
            > > (personal) experiences in both the outer
            > > and inner realities of our lives. However,
            > > one needs to be objective and free of
            > > religious opinions in order to find Truth.
            > > Unfortunately, religions (Eckankar) requires
            > > one to become attached to the opinions
            > > of the leader (and those "higher" than
            > > yourself), dogma, laws, rules, guidelines,
            > > belief, faith, hope, promises, scripture,
            > > tradition, objects (buildings), ceremonies,
            > > initiation rank, etc.
            > >
            > >
            > > P: So... I am curious whether this group
            > > holds to its statement:
            > >
            > > "We, also, cover the concerns and
            > > critical thinking involving the consciousness
            > > and workings of ALL societies, religions,
            > > and governments and the world as
            > > a whole.
            > >
            > > Let's share our opinions, new insights
            > > & perspectives of NOT ONLY Eckankar,
            > > but of other religions, organizations,
            > > governments and their leaders too.
            > > Be respectful to your fellow site members."
            > >
            > > ME: I can't speak for the group. I wrote
            > > that long ago and I do sometimes approach
            > > other topics such as: All Religions Are Scams!
            > > Basically I wrote that because I thought people
            > > could tie-in other subjects to the main focus
            > > which is the Scam of Eckankar which Twitchell
            > > created and Klemp and Company inherited.
            > >
            > > P: Or... if it is ONLY a negative, reactionary
            > > and closed-minded forum for disgruntled
            > > ex-members of Eckankar as also expressed
            > > in the description and mainly by Prometheus_
            > > 973 in the discussion. If so, I have plenty
            > > of other better ways to spend my time.
            > >
            > > ME: Actually some members are Not ex-ECKists.
            > > They are current card carrying ECKists. Some
            > > just don't post... they Read only, but want the
            > > member benefits of email notification and
            > > access to the Files. BTW- We aren't here to
            > > have a discussion on whether Eckankar or
            > > Klemp is being truthful or is a valid religion.
            > >
            > > After all, Klemp cannot actually communicate
            > > with his chelas on the "inner" (as he claims
            > > with his Mahanta powers) or else he would
            > > not need to have a computer generated
            > > initiation list sent to RESAs for their recommendation/
            > > approval.
            > >
            > > And, why the monthly IROs if there
            > > is "Inner communication" with the
            > > All Knowing Master?
            > >
            > > Why aren't there "inner" Seminars, or
            > > "inner Satsang classes" scheduled for
            > > local areas? The same goes for "inner
            > > Book discussions." Where's the proof
            > > in the pudding for all the claims?
            > >
            > > It's all talk and promises and imagination!
            > > Sure, some people will see Rebazar or
            > > other guys before even seeing their pic.
            > > But, this happens in other religions too
            > > with seeing Jesus or Buddha or Krishna
            > > or Kirpal Singh (Paul's real Master), etc.
            > > etc. And, their stories and miracles are
            > > better than the ones Eckists have! Why
            > > is that (Google miracles)? Shouldn't a
            > > card carrying Eckist have even greater
            > > miracles and events happen to them
            > > since they are closer/higher to God?
            > > One would think so, but No!
            > >
            > > And, of course, the Truth will be
            > > a "negative" and hurtful view of Eckankar
            > > as seen by brain-washed ECKists.
            > > I would have seen it the same way
            > > at one time and become angry. You
            > > have to buy into it all for it to "work"
            > > mentally/spiritually. When a person
            > > (Eckist) has put in that much time and
            > > money and effort to make rank. You
            > > (self/ego) is going to defend your choices
            > > even though there are things and people
            > > in the ESC org/church or Satsang Society
            > > that you don't like or want to work with
            > > or for.
            > >
            > > The Klemp's getting angry with that Third
            > > Fill-in Postal Clerk in the 9/200(?) H.I.
            > > Letter showed that something was still wrong.
            > > [It's listed in the Files].
            > >
            > > Plus there's the EMR/EMF thing that started
            > > around 1991 and still bothers Klemp.
            > >
            > > How about the Polarians and Adom and Ede
            > > and the Garden of Eden Myth? This is printed
            > > in the Shariyat!
            > >
            > > How about what is written in the Shariyat 1
            > > about the Virgin Birth of the Mahanta when
            > > Klemp is the 2nd son? How can HK be the
            > > Mahanta? Is ECK Scripture wrong? Is it
            > > negative to mention this?
            > >
            > > There's more of course, but let's face it
            > > an ECKist cannot ask questions after
            > > the 2nd initiation due to maintaining the
            > > Law of Silence (one must go to the inner).
            > > This is a control tactic of religion. One
            > > must learn to Surrender, and Service will
            > > keep you too busy to think critically or
            > > to ask difficult questions. If questions
            > > are asked the H.I. grapevine will notify
            > > the RESA Police and this will cause some
            > > Eckists to be Black Listed on Initiations
            > > for at least three-five years or until
            > > another RESA is chosen.
            > >
            > > Maybe you should find something else
            > > to occupy your time. Live life! Let go
            > > and let God!
            > >
            > > Personally, I felt a huge weight (stress)
            > > lifted from my shoulders when I finally
            > > made the decision to quit Eckankar.
            > > It was a wonderful and a spiritual
            > > experience! But, it was very difficult not
            > > looking to or asking the mahanta for help.
            > >
            > > I finally looked to my Self and to Spirit.
            > > This is how I became religion free and
            > > Spiritually Free. I am my own master
            > > and I have my own personal religion...
            > > as it should be.
            > >
            > > But, others need experts and holy men
            > > to look up to because it helps them to
            > > believe. Of course, that's what causes the
            > > problems for everyone else. BTW- The
            > > social connections can be made outside
            > > of church and I didn't want to hang out
            > > with too many Eckists anyway.
            > >
            > > Or, go to the 2010 EWWS and celebrate the
            > > "Year of the ECK Teacher" again. I hear there
            > > will be another "Acres of Diamonds Meeting"
            > > and an ECK "Arahata Skills Workshop" again.
            > > Oh, and I hear that there will be an "ECK-Vidya
            > > Workshop" even though Eckankar (Klemp)
            > > no longer sells PT's ECK-Vidya book. And,
            > > there's that revisit to the Temple and walking
            > > the Contemplation Trails (again).
            > >
            > > P: Awaiting any new and enlightening information,
            > > Peter
            > >
            > > ME: The info has been given. But, one needs
            > > the ears to hear it and the eyes to see it. You,
            > > still, might not be ready to go it alone with
            > > Soul and with Spirit but that's okay... you're
            > > not alone.
            > >
            > > Prometheus
            > >
            > > prometheus_973 wrote:
            > >
            > > It's the "Year of the Teacher" again.
            > > However, words have two meanings.
            > > In Eckankar "Teacher," also, refers to
            > > or means Arahata and this refers to
            > > or means a 2nd Initiate. Aren't ECKists
            > > going backwards? Isn't revisiting the
            > > past each year considered as "Spiritual
            > > Devolution versus Evolution?"
            > >
            > > Klemp and Company are substituting
            > > talk (sharing and stories), social interaction,
            > > feelings from the 4th "Heart" chakra,
            > > Temple tours, retraining classes, HU
            > > chants (with focus on the 6th Chakra)
            > > and entertainment for Spirituality. It's
            > > a Physical, Astral, Causal, and Mental
            > > exercise, especially, when one projects
            > > expectations via the mind's imagination.
            > > BTW-All Chakras (even the highest Crown
            > > Chakra which ECKankar doesn't use)
            > > are seen by them as being Astral Plane.
            > >
            > > So, after 29 years with Klemp in charge
            > > ECKists are encouraged to make an
            > > expensive pilgrimage (during a recession)
            > > to visit the EK Temple and to see and
            > > hear the Klempster in person. This
            > > is odd (or is it? $$$) because one would
            > > think that "the most advanced spiritual
            > > path" on the planet would encourage
            > > "INNER" visitations, meetings, satsangs,
            > > and Worldwide Seminars!
            > >
            > > Why aren't there "Inner" ECK Worldwide
            > > Seminars? Aren't ECKists advanced
            > > enough after all of this time? At least
            > > have an Inner Worldwide for Higher Initiates...
            > > right?!
            > >
            > > Aren't ECKists encouraged to visit the
            > > Physical Plane ECK Temple in Chanhassen
            > > on the "Inner Plane" as well as other
            > > Physical Plane and Inner Plane Temples?
            > > Sure!
            > >
            > > So, why is it necessary to travel to
            > > Minnesota to see and hear Klemp or
            > > to visit the EK Temple there? Do ECKists
            > > need the retraining, or do they need
            > > to reinforce their delusional beliefs that
            > > Eckankar and Klemp are so much more
            > > "advanced" than other religions and
            > > other religious leaders?
            > >
            > > ECKists need to remember one thing:
            > > Keep smiling... it looks good and fools
            > > people!
            > >
            > > Prometheus
            > >
            > >
            >
          • Peter Anton
            Thank you Ingrid and Mish for the comments. Let me remind you that I don t have any gripe with Eckankar whatsoever. My problem as stated in my first post is
            Message 5 of 9 , Jul 29, 2010
            • 0 Attachment
              Thank you Ingrid and Mish for the comments.  Let me remind you that I don't have any gripe with Eckankar whatsoever.  My problem as stated in my first post is a lack of personal experience that matches the lore put forth in Eck circles.  This is an issue with me and the spiritual path that I am walking.  I have absolutely no evidence that the Eckankar organization is anything but upstanding and well meaning.  My problem, in short, is MY problem.  Whatever conspiracies or deceptions others see are their perceptions and none of my business. 

              I can see now that this is not the place for me.  Have a good life, everyone.

              Peter



              mishmisha9 wrote:
               

              Hi, Peter!

              Welcome to the site. I'm not really into discussing every or any
              other religions but in just brief passing. I'm just not interested in
              the man made religions that in my opinion are basically presented
              to keep the masses of people under control by implanting a lot of
              fear and guilt in the followers. Eckankar on the surface may not
              seem to be that way but in reality it is. It diverts one's attention
              for one thing from the real world and it demands time and money
              being expended. But if people enjoy the delusion and feel comfortable
              with it . . . well, okay!

              Anyway, would you like to share what troubles you about eckankar?
              What are you questioning at this point?

              There is a lot of information in the archives . . . hope you will spend
              some time reading. I enjoyed posting my reviews on Klemp's "Those
              Wonderful ECK Masters" . .. to me, that little jewel of a book revealed
              how Klemp manipulates and promotes eckankar's false promises and spins.

              Of course, you are correct that you have to decide for yourself. This site
              shares information about the false and flawed teachings . . . the big
              ones are the lies and plagiarisms.

              As for members being disgruntled . . . what's wrong with that? If you
              feel duped, of course, you will feel disgruntled. Why should members
              feel kindly about the lies and wasted time in eckankar?

              This is not a wishy washy place.

              Take care,
              Mish

              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Peter Anton <peterantonrev@...> wrote:
              >
              > Thanks for the elaboration, Pro, but I was hoping for some feedback from
              > someone other than you. No offense, but the opinion of one I've already
              > heard from does not help me. I will wait and see if someone else speaks
              > up to see if there will be any useful dialog to keep me here. I'd
              > normally present some thoughts as seeds for discussion, but I'm still
              > uncertain that it would amount to anymore than fuel for controversy,
              > debate and rants. Perhaps the Eckist members here are simply keeping an
              > eye on detractor groups and that is partly the reason I dropped in. I
              > don't have any time for argument about opinions or facts? that people
              > have about the Eckankar movement and organization. Those are things
              > that only I can and must determine for myself. If criticism is all this
              > group is all about then I won't be here long. For now, I will wait
              > until and if I get some other perspectives.
              >
              > Peter
              >
              > prometheus_973 wrote:
              > >
              > > Hello Peter,
              > > Please don't hold the group
              > > to what I wrote in the introduction.
              > > I would like to address what you
              > > have written.
              > >
              > > Peter wrote:
              > >
              > > This may be my only post to this
              > > group before I leave it. We'll see.
              > >
              > > Although Eckankar has been my
              > > preferred spiritual viewpoint for
              > > 30 years, I have climbed onto the
              > > fence to look around due to a lack
              > > of personal experience or direct
              > > evidence to support claims, or
              > > should I say simply, the lore which
              > > surrounds the teachings of Eckankar.
              > >
              > > ME: It does seem as though you've
              > > been on the fence for some time now.
              > > I will admit that I was unhappy with
              > > many things on the business side of
              > > the org and this always carried over
              > > to the "spiritual" side. And, there was
              > > a lot of bait and switch that people
              > > just gradually accepted and had to
              > > accept to climb higher after years
              > > and years. I too was/am a skeptic
              > > and it took me many years to surrender
              > > to the mahanta. I'm just glad that
              > > I was able to retain my sanity.
              > >
              > > P: So I joined this group [ESA] to
              > > entertain my skeptical side, having
              > > had a tendency to be a bit too "faithful"
              > > about things I have yet to gain real
              > > knowledge of.
              > >
              > > ME: I've always been the skeptic
              > > and wasn't much of a joiner. I always
              > > had trouble fully accepting/believing
              > > the hype. And, I never liked the
              > > emotional approaches some groups
              > > took.
              > >
              > > P: Personal experience is, in my mind,
              > > the only thing that proves anything
              > > conclusively and then only for the
              > > person in question. I have no way
              > > of knowing the reality of other people's
              > > experience and so I work to have
              > > respect for the viewpoints of others
              > > and try to find common areas of
              > > understanding by offering my
              > > perspective and learning from the
              > > (hopefully honest and true) experiences
              > > of others.
              > >
              > > ME: Yes! Others can help us to get to
              > > a certain point. But, everything involving
              > > God or Spirit or Whatever requires subjective
              > > (personal) experiences in both the outer
              > > and inner realities of our lives. However,
              > > one needs to be objective and free of
              > > religious opinions in order to find Truth.
              > > Unfortunately, religions (Eckankar) requires
              > > one to become attached to the opinions
              > > of the leader (and those "higher" than
              > > yourself), dogma, laws, rules, guidelines,
              > > belief, faith, hope, promises, scripture,
              > > tradition, objects (buildings), ceremonies,
              > > initiation rank, etc.
              > >
              > >
              > > P: So... I am curious whether this group
              > > holds to its statement:
              > >
              > > "We, also, cover the concerns and
              > > critical thinking involving the consciousness
              > > and workings of ALL societies, religions,
              > > and governments and the world as
              > > a whole.
              > >
              > > Let's share our opinions, new insights
              > > & perspectives of NOT ONLY Eckankar,
              > > but of other religions, organizations,
              > > governments and their leaders too.
              > > Be respectful to your fellow site members."
              > >
              > > ME: I can't speak for the group. I wrote
              > > that long ago and I do sometimes approach
              > > other topics such as: All Religions Are Scams!
              > > Basically I wrote that because I thought people
              > > could tie-in other subjects to the main focus
              > > which is the Scam of Eckankar which Twitchell
              > > created and Klemp and Company inherited.
              > >
              > > P: Or... if it is ONLY a negative, reactionary
              > > and closed-minded forum for disgruntled
              > > ex-members of Eckankar as also expressed
              > > in the description and mainly by Prometheus_
              > > 973 in the discussion. If so, I have plenty
              > > of other better ways to spend my time.
              > >
              > > ME: Actually some members are Not ex-ECKists.
              > > They are current card carrying ECKists. Some
              > > just don't post... they Read only, but want the
              > > member benefits of email notification and
              > > access to the Files. BTW- We aren't here to
              > > have a discussion on whether Eckankar or
              > > Klemp is being truthful or is a valid religion.
              > >
              > > After all, Klemp cannot actually communicate
              > > with his chelas on the "inner" (as he claims
              > > with his Mahanta powers) or else he would
              > > not need to have a computer generated
              > > initiation list sent to RESAs for their recommendation/
              > > approval.
              > >
              > > And, why the monthly IROs if there
              > > is "Inner communication" with the
              > > All Knowing Master?
              > >
              > > Why aren't there "inner" Seminars, or
              > > "inner Satsang classes" scheduled for
              > > local areas? The same goes for "inner
              > > Book discussions." Where's the proof
              > > in the pudding for all the claims?
              > >
              > > It's all talk and promises and imagination!
              > > Sure, some people will see Rebazar or
              > > other guys before even seeing their pic.
              > > But, this happens in other religions too
              > > with seeing Jesus or Buddha or Krishna
              > > or Kirpal Singh (Paul's real Master), etc.
              > > etc. And, their stories and miracles are
              > > better than the ones Eckists have! Why
              > > is that (Google miracles)? Shouldn't a
              > > card carrying Eckist have even greater
              > > miracles and events happen to them
              > > since they are closer/higher to God?
              > > One would think so, but No!
              > >
              > > And, of course, the Truth will be
              > > a "negative" and hurtful view of Eckankar
              > > as seen by brain-washed ECKists.
              > > I would have seen it the same way
              > > at one time and become angry. You
              > > have to buy into it all for it to "work"
              > > mentally/spiritually. When a person
              > > (Eckist) has put in that much time and
              > > money and effort to make rank. You
              > > (self/ego) is going to defend your choices
              > > even though there are things and people
              > > in the ESC org/church or Satsang Society
              > > that you don't like or want to work with
              > > or for.
              > >
              > > The Klemp's getting angry with that Third
              > > Fill-in Postal Clerk in the 9/200(?) H.I.
              > > Letter showed that something was still wrong.
              > > [It's listed in the Files].
              > >
              > > Plus there's the EMR/EMF thing that started
              > > around 1991 and still bothers Klemp.
              > >
              > > How about the Polarians and Adom and Ede
              > > and the Garden of Eden Myth? This is printed
              > > in the Shariyat!
              > >
              > > How about what is written in the Shariyat 1
              > > about the Virgin Birth of the Mahanta when
              > > Klemp is the 2nd son? How can HK be the
              > > Mahanta? Is ECK Scripture wrong? Is it
              > > negative to mention this?
              > >
              > > There's more of course, but let's face it
              > > an ECKist cannot ask questions after
              > > the 2nd initiation due to maintaining the
              > > Law of Silence (one must go to the inner).
              > > This is a control tactic of religion. One
              > > must learn to Surrender, and Service will
              > > keep you too busy to think critically or
              > > to ask difficult questions. If questions
              > > are asked the H.I. grapevine will notify
              > > the RESA Police and this will cause some
              > > Eckists to be Black Listed on Initiations
              > > for at least three-five years or until
              > > another RESA is chosen.
              > >
              > > Maybe you should find something else
              > > to occupy your time. Live life! Let go
              > > and let God!
              > >
              > > Personally, I felt a huge weight (stress)
              > > lifted from my shoulders when I finally
              > > made the decision to quit Eckankar.
              > > It was a wonderful and a spiritual
              > > experience! But, it was very difficult not
              > > looking to or asking the mahanta for help.
              > >
              > > I finally looked to my Self and to Spirit.
              > > This is how I became religion free and
              > > Spiritually Free. I am my own master
              > > and I have my own personal religion...
              > > as it should be.
              > >
              > > But, others need experts and holy men
              > > to look up to because it helps them to
              > > believe. Of course, that's what causes the
              > > problems for everyone else. BTW- The
              > > social connections can be made outside
              > > of church and I didn't want to hang out
              > > with too many Eckists anyway.
              > >
              > > Or, go to the 2010 EWWS and celebrate the
              > > "Year of the ECK Teacher" again. I hear there
              > > will be another "Acres of Diamonds Meeting"
              > > and an ECK "Arahata Skills Workshop" again.
              > > Oh, and I hear that there will be an "ECK-Vidya
              > > Workshop" even though Eckankar (Klemp)
              > > no longer sells PT's ECK-Vidya book. And,
              > > there's that revisit to the Temple and walking
              > > the Contemplation Trails (again).
              > >
              > > P: Awaiting any new and enlightening information,
              > > Peter
              > >
              > > ME: The info has been given. But, one needs
              > > the ears to hear it and the eyes to see it. You,
              > > still, might not be ready to go it alone with
              > > Soul and with Spirit but that's okay... you're
              > > not alone.
              > >
              > > Prometheus
              > >
              > > prometheus_973 wrote:
              > >
              > > It's the "Year of the Teacher" again.
              > > However, words have two meanings.
              > > In Eckankar "Teacher," also, refers to
              > > or means Arahata and this refers to
              > > or means a 2nd Initiate. Aren't ECKists
              > > going backwards? Isn't revisiting the
              > > past each year considered as "Spiritual
              > > Devolution versus Evolution?"
              > >
              > > Klemp and Company are substituting
              > > talk (sharing and stories), social interaction,
              > > feelings from the 4th "Heart" chakra,
              > > Temple tours, retraining classes, HU
              > > chants (with focus on the 6th Chakra)
              > > and entertainment for Spirituality. It's
              > > a Physical, Astral, Causal, and Mental
              > > exercise, especially, when one projects
              > > expectations via the mind's imagination.
              > > BTW-All Chakras (even the highest Crown
              > > Chakra which ECKankar doesn't use)
              > > are seen by them as being Astral Plane.
              > >
              > > So, after 29 years with Klemp in charge
              > > ECKists are encouraged to make an
              > > expensive pilgrimage (during a recession)
              > > to visit the EK Temple and to see and
              > > hear the Klempster in person. This
              > > is odd (or is it? $$$) because one would
              > > think that "the most advanced spiritual
              > > path" on the planet would encourage
              > > "INNER" visitations, meetings, satsangs,
              > > and Worldwide Seminars!
              > >
              > > Why aren't there "Inner" ECK Worldwide
              > > Seminars? Aren't ECKists advanced
              > > enough after all of this time? At least
              > > have an Inner Worldwide for Higher Initiates...
              > > right?!
              > >
              > > Aren't ECKists encouraged to visit the
              > > Physical Plane ECK Temple in Chanhassen
              > > on the "Inner Plane" as well as other
              > > Physical Plane and Inner Plane Temples?
              > > Sure!
              > >
              > > So, why is it necessary to travel to
              > > Minnesota to see and hear Klemp or
              > > to visit the EK Temple there? Do ECKists
              > > need the retraining, or do they need
              > > to reinforce their delusional beliefs that
              > > Eckankar and Klemp are so much more
              > > "advanced" than other religions and
              > > other religious leaders?
              > >
              > > ECKists need to remember one thing:
              > > Keep smiling... it looks good and fools
              > > people!
              > >
              > > Prometheus
              > >
              > >
              >

            • mishmisha9
              Peter, I hope you can figure out why you are having this lack of personal experience while following the eckankar path . . . maybe you need to investigate why
              Message 6 of 9 , Jul 29, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                Peter, I hope you can figure out why you are having this lack of
                personal experience while following the eckankar path . . . maybe
                you need to investigate why you are not being successful as I assume
                that you are doing the spiritual exercises as taught by Klemp? This
                has to be important, because how can you be making any progress on
                the eck spiritual path you are trying to walk? Are you at a stand still rather
                than sitting on the fence? Must be very frustrating for you.

                Well, I hope you figure out how to take care of your problem and then can
                have a nice life!!

                Mish

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Peter Anton <peterantonrev@...> wrote:
                >
                > Thank you Ingrid and Mish for the comments. Let me remind you that I
                > don't have any gripe with Eckankar whatsoever. My problem as stated in
                > my first post is a lack of personal experience that matches the lore put
                > forth in Eck circles. This is an issue with me and the spiritual path
                > that I am walking. I have absolutely no evidence that the Eckankar
                > organization is anything but upstanding and well meaning. My problem,
                > in short, is MY problem. Whatever conspiracies or deceptions others see
                > are their perceptions and none of my business.
                >
                > I can see now that this is not the place for me. Have a good life,
                > everyone.
                >
                > Peter
                >
                >
                >
                > mishmisha9 wrote:
                > >
                > > Hi, Peter!
                > >
                > > Welcome to the site. I'm not really into discussing every or any
                > > other religions but in just brief passing. I'm just not interested in
                > > the man made religions that in my opinion are basically presented
                > > to keep the masses of people under control by implanting a lot of
                > > fear and guilt in the followers. Eckankar on the surface may not
                > > seem to be that way but in reality it is. It diverts one's attention
                > > for one thing from the real world and it demands time and money
                > > being expended. But if people enjoy the delusion and feel comfortable
                > > with it . . . well, okay!
                > >
                > > Anyway, would you like to share what troubles you about eckankar?
                > > What are you questioning at this point?
                > >
                > > There is a lot of information in the archives . . . hope you will spend
                > > some time reading. I enjoyed posting my reviews on Klemp's "Those
                > > Wonderful ECK Masters" . .. to me, that little jewel of a book revealed
                > > how Klemp manipulates and promotes eckankar's false promises and spins.
                > >
                > > Of course, you are correct that you have to decide for yourself. This site
                > > shares information about the false and flawed teachings . . . the big
                > > ones are the lies and plagiarisms.
                > >
                > > As for members being disgruntled . . . what's wrong with that? If you
                > > feel duped, of course, you will feel disgruntled. Why should members
                > > feel kindly about the lies and wasted time in eckankar?
                > >
                > > This is not a wishy washy place.
                > >
                > > Take care,
                > > Mish
                > >
                > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                > > <mailto:EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous%40yahoogroups.com>, Peter Anton
                > > <peterantonrev@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Thanks for the elaboration, Pro, but I was hoping for some feedback
                > > from
                > > > someone other than you. No offense, but the opinion of one I've already
                > > > heard from does not help me. I will wait and see if someone else speaks
                > > > up to see if there will be any useful dialog to keep me here. I'd
                > > > normally present some thoughts as seeds for discussion, but I'm still
                > > > uncertain that it would amount to anymore than fuel for controversy,
                > > > debate and rants. Perhaps the Eckist members here are simply keeping an
                > > > eye on detractor groups and that is partly the reason I dropped in. I
                > > > don't have any time for argument about opinions or facts? that people
                > > > have about the Eckankar movement and organization. Those are things
                > > > that only I can and must determine for myself. If criticism is all this
                > > > group is all about then I won't be here long. For now, I will wait
                > > > until and if I get some other perspectives.
                > > >
                > > > Peter
                > > >
                > > > prometheus_973 wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > Hello Peter,
                > > > > Please don't hold the group
                > > > > to what I wrote in the introduction.
                > > > > I would like to address what you
                > > > > have written.
                > > > >
                > > > > Peter wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > This may be my only post to this
                > > > > group before I leave it. We'll see.
                > > > >
                > > > > Although Eckankar has been my
                > > > > preferred spiritual viewpoint for
                > > > > 30 years, I have climbed onto the
                > > > > fence to look around due to a lack
                > > > > of personal experience or direct
                > > > > evidence to support claims, or
                > > > > should I say simply, the lore which
                > > > > surrounds the teachings of Eckankar.
                > > > >
                > > > > ME: It does seem as though you've
                > > > > been on the fence for some time now.
                > > > > I will admit that I was unhappy with
                > > > > many things on the business side of
                > > > > the org and this always carried over
                > > > > to the "spiritual" side. And, there was
                > > > > a lot of bait and switch that people
                > > > > just gradually accepted and had to
                > > > > accept to climb higher after years
                > > > > and years. I too was/am a skeptic
                > > > > and it took me many years to surrender
                > > > > to the mahanta. I'm just glad that
                > > > > I was able to retain my sanity.
                > > > >
                > > > > P: So I joined this group [ESA] to
                > > > > entertain my skeptical side, having
                > > > > had a tendency to be a bit too "faithful"
                > > > > about things I have yet to gain real
                > > > > knowledge of.
                > > > >
                > > > > ME: I've always been the skeptic
                > > > > and wasn't much of a joiner. I always
                > > > > had trouble fully accepting/believing
                > > > > the hype. And, I never liked the
                > > > > emotional approaches some groups
                > > > > took.
                > > > >
                > > > > P: Personal experience is, in my mind,
                > > > > the only thing that proves anything
                > > > > conclusively and then only for the
                > > > > person in question. I have no way
                > > > > of knowing the reality of other people's
                > > > > experience and so I work to have
                > > > > respect for the viewpoints of others
                > > > > and try to find common areas of
                > > > > understanding by offering my
                > > > > perspective and learning from the
                > > > > (hopefully honest and true) experiences
                > > > > of others.
                > > > >
                > > > > ME: Yes! Others can help us to get to
                > > > > a certain point. But, everything involving
                > > > > God or Spirit or Whatever requires subjective
                > > > > (personal) experiences in both the outer
                > > > > and inner realities of our lives. However,
                > > > > one needs to be objective and free of
                > > > > religious opinions in order to find Truth.
                > > > > Unfortunately, religions (Eckankar) requires
                > > > > one to become attached to the opinions
                > > > > of the leader (and those "higher" than
                > > > > yourself), dogma, laws, rules, guidelines,
                > > > > belief, faith, hope, promises, scripture,
                > > > > tradition, objects (buildings), ceremonies,
                > > > > initiation rank, etc.
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > P: So... I am curious whether this group
                > > > > holds to its statement:
                > > > >
                > > > > "We, also, cover the concerns and
                > > > > critical thinking involving the consciousness
                > > > > and workings of ALL societies, religions,
                > > > > and governments and the world as
                > > > > a whole.
                > > > >
                > > > > Let's share our opinions, new insights
                > > > > & perspectives of NOT ONLY Eckankar,
                > > > > but of other religions, organizations,
                > > > > governments and their leaders too.
                > > > > Be respectful to your fellow site members."
                > > > >
                > > > > ME: I can't speak for the group. I wrote
                > > > > that long ago and I do sometimes approach
                > > > > other topics such as: All Religions Are Scams!
                > > > > Basically I wrote that because I thought people
                > > > > could tie-in other subjects to the main focus
                > > > > which is the Scam of Eckankar which Twitchell
                > > > > created and Klemp and Company inherited.
                > > > >
                > > > > P: Or... if it is ONLY a negative, reactionary
                > > > > and closed-minded forum for disgruntled
                > > > > ex-members of Eckankar as also expressed
                > > > > in the description and mainly by Prometheus_
                > > > > 973 in the discussion. If so, I have plenty
                > > > > of other better ways to spend my time.
                > > > >
                > > > > ME: Actually some members are Not ex-ECKists.
                > > > > They are current card carrying ECKists. Some
                > > > > just don't post... they Read only, but want the
                > > > > member benefits of email notification and
                > > > > access to the Files. BTW- We aren't here to
                > > > > have a discussion on whether Eckankar or
                > > > > Klemp is being truthful or is a valid religion.
                > > > >
                > > > > After all, Klemp cannot actually communicate
                > > > > with his chelas on the "inner" (as he claims
                > > > > with his Mahanta powers) or else he would
                > > > > not need to have a computer generated
                > > > > initiation list sent to RESAs for their recommendation/
                > > > > approval.
                > > > >
                > > > > And, why the monthly IROs if there
                > > > > is "Inner communication" with the
                > > > > All Knowing Master?
                > > > >
                > > > > Why aren't there "inner" Seminars, or
                > > > > "inner Satsang classes" scheduled for
                > > > > local areas? The same goes for "inner
                > > > > Book discussions." Where's the proof
                > > > > in the pudding for all the claims?
                > > > >
                > > > > It's all talk and promises and imagination!
                > > > > Sure, some people will see Rebazar or
                > > > > other guys before even seeing their pic.
                > > > > But, this happens in other religions too
                > > > > with seeing Jesus or Buddha or Krishna
                > > > > or Kirpal Singh (Paul's real Master), etc.
                > > > > etc. And, their stories and miracles are
                > > > > better than the ones Eckists have! Why
                > > > > is that (Google miracles)? Shouldn't a
                > > > > card carrying Eckist have even greater
                > > > > miracles and events happen to them
                > > > > since they are closer/higher to God?
                > > > > One would think so, but No!
                > > > >
                > > > > And, of course, the Truth will be
                > > > > a "negative" and hurtful view of Eckankar
                > > > > as seen by brain-washed ECKists.
                > > > > I would have seen it the same way
                > > > > at one time and become angry. You
                > > > > have to buy into it all for it to "work"
                > > > > mentally/spiritually. When a person
                > > > > (Eckist) has put in that much time and
                > > > > money and effort to make rank. You
                > > > > (self/ego) is going to defend your choices
                > > > > even though there are things and people
                > > > > in the ESC org/church or Satsang Society
                > > > > that you don't like or want to work with
                > > > > or for.
                > > > >
                > > > > The Klemp's getting angry with that Third
                > > > > Fill-in Postal Clerk in the 9/200(?) H.I.
                > > > > Letter showed that something was still wrong.
                > > > > [It's listed in the Files].
                > > > >
                > > > > Plus there's the EMR/EMF thing that started
                > > > > around 1991 and still bothers Klemp.
                > > > >
                > > > > How about the Polarians and Adom and Ede
                > > > > and the Garden of Eden Myth? This is printed
                > > > > in the Shariyat!
                > > > >
                > > > > How about what is written in the Shariyat 1
                > > > > about the Virgin Birth of the Mahanta when
                > > > > Klemp is the 2nd son? How can HK be the
                > > > > Mahanta? Is ECK Scripture wrong? Is it
                > > > > negative to mention this?
                > > > >
                > > > > There's more of course, but let's face it
                > > > > an ECKist cannot ask questions after
                > > > > the 2nd initiation due to maintaining the
                > > > > Law of Silence (one must go to the inner).
                > > > > This is a control tactic of religion. One
                > > > > must learn to Surrender, and Service will
                > > > > keep you too busy to think critically or
                > > > > to ask difficult questions. If questions
                > > > > are asked the H.I. grapevine will notify
                > > > > the RESA Police and this will cause some
                > > > > Eckists to be Black Listed on Initiations
                > > > > for at least three-five years or until
                > > > > another RESA is chosen.
                > > > >
                > > > > Maybe you should find something else
                > > > > to occupy your time. Live life! Let go
                > > > > and let God!
                > > > >
                > > > > Personally, I felt a huge weight (stress)
                > > > > lifted from my shoulders when I finally
                > > > > made the decision to quit Eckankar.
                > > > > It was a wonderful and a spiritual
                > > > > experience! But, it was very difficult not
                > > > > looking to or asking the mahanta for help.
                > > > >
                > > > > I finally looked to my Self and to Spirit.
                > > > > This is how I became religion free and
                > > > > Spiritually Free. I am my own master
                > > > > and I have my own personal religion...
                > > > > as it should be.
                > > > >
                > > > > But, others need experts and holy men
                > > > > to look up to because it helps them to
                > > > > believe. Of course, that's what causes the
                > > > > problems for everyone else. BTW- The
                > > > > social connections can be made outside
                > > > > of church and I didn't want to hang out
                > > > > with too many Eckists anyway.
                > > > >
                > > > > Or, go to the 2010 EWWS and celebrate the
                > > > > "Year of the ECK Teacher" again. I hear there
                > > > > will be another "Acres of Diamonds Meeting"
                > > > > and an ECK "Arahata Skills Workshop" again.
                > > > > Oh, and I hear that there will be an "ECK-Vidya
                > > > > Workshop" even though Eckankar (Klemp)
                > > > > no longer sells PT's ECK-Vidya book. And,
                > > > > there's that revisit to the Temple and walking
                > > > > the Contemplation Trails (again).
                > > > >
                > > > > P: Awaiting any new and enlightening information,
                > > > > Peter
                > > > >
                > > > > ME: The info has been given. But, one needs
                > > > > the ears to hear it and the eyes to see it. You,
                > > > > still, might not be ready to go it alone with
                > > > > Soul and with Spirit but that's okay... you're
                > > > > not alone.
                > > > >
                > > > > Prometheus
                > > > >
                > > > > prometheus_973 wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > It's the "Year of the Teacher" again.
                > > > > However, words have two meanings.
                > > > > In Eckankar "Teacher," also, refers to
                > > > > or means Arahata and this refers to
                > > > > or means a 2nd Initiate. Aren't ECKists
                > > > > going backwards? Isn't revisiting the
                > > > > past each year considered as "Spiritual
                > > > > Devolution versus Evolution?"
                > > > >
                > > > > Klemp and Company are substituting
                > > > > talk (sharing and stories), social interaction,
                > > > > feelings from the 4th "Heart" chakra,
                > > > > Temple tours, retraining classes, HU
                > > > > chants (with focus on the 6th Chakra)
                > > > > and entertainment for Spirituality. It's
                > > > > a Physical, Astral, Causal, and Mental
                > > > > exercise, especially, when one projects
                > > > > expectations via the mind's imagination.
                > > > > BTW-All Chakras (even the highest Crown
                > > > > Chakra which ECKankar doesn't use)
                > > > > are seen by them as being Astral Plane.
                > > > >
                > > > > So, after 29 years with Klemp in charge
                > > > > ECKists are encouraged to make an
                > > > > expensive pilgrimage (during a recession)
                > > > > to visit the EK Temple and to see and
                > > > > hear the Klempster in person. This
                > > > > is odd (or is it? $$$) because one would
                > > > > think that "the most advanced spiritual
                > > > > path" on the planet would encourage
                > > > > "INNER" visitations, meetings, satsangs,
                > > > > and Worldwide Seminars!
                > > > >
                > > > > Why aren't there "Inner" ECK Worldwide
                > > > > Seminars? Aren't ECKists advanced
                > > > > enough after all of this time? At least
                > > > > have an Inner Worldwide for Higher Initiates...
                > > > > right?!
                > > > >
                > > > > Aren't ECKists encouraged to visit the
                > > > > Physical Plane ECK Temple in Chanhassen
                > > > > on the "Inner Plane" as well as other
                > > > > Physical Plane and Inner Plane Temples?
                > > > > Sure!
                > > > >
                > > > > So, why is it necessary to travel to
                > > > > Minnesota to see and hear Klemp or
                > > > > to visit the EK Temple there? Do ECKists
                > > > > need the retraining, or do they need
                > > > > to reinforce their delusional beliefs that
                > > > > Eckankar and Klemp are so much more
                > > > > "advanced" than other religions and
                > > > > other religious leaders?
                > > > >
                > > > > ECKists need to remember one thing:
                > > > > Keep smiling... it looks good and fools
                > > > > people!
                > > > >
                > > > > Prometheus
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                >
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