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Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A Look At the Next 2010 ECK Worldwide Seminar

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  • Peter Anton
    This may be my only post to this group before I leave it. We ll see. Although Eckankar has been my preferred spiritual viewpoint for 30 years, I have climbed
    Message 1 of 9 , Jul 27 12:38 PM
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      This may be my only post to this group before I leave it.  We'll see.  Although Eckankar has been my preferred spiritual viewpoint for 30 years, I have climbed onto the fence to look around due to a lack of personal experience or direct evidence to support claims, or should I say simply, the lore which surrounds the teachings of Eckankar.  So I joined this group to entertain my skeptical side, having had a tendency to be a bit too "faithful" about things I have yet to gain real knowledge of.  Personal experience is, in my mind, the only thing that proves anything conclusively and then only for the person in question.  I have no way of knowing the reality of other people's experience and so I work to have respect for the viewpoints of others and try to find common areas of understanding by offering my perspective and learning from the (hopefully honest and true) experiences of others. 

      So... I am curious whether this group holds to its statement:

      "We, also, cover the concerns and critical thinking involving the consciousness and workings of ALL societies, religions, and governments and the world as a whole.

      Let's share our opinions, new insights & perspectives of NOT ONLY Eckankar, but of other religions, organizations, governments and their leaders too. Be respectful to your fellow site members."

      Or... if it is ONLY a negative, reactionary and closed-minded forum for disgruntled ex-members of Eckankar as also expressed in the description and mainly by Prometheus_973 in the discussion.  If so, I have plenty of other better ways to spend my time.

      Awaiting any new and enlightening information,
      Peter


      prometheus_973 wrote:
       

      It's the "Year of the Teacher" again.
      However, words have two meanings.
      In Eckankar "Teacher," also, refers to
      or means Arahata and this refers to
      or means a 2nd Initiate. Aren't ECKists
      going backwards? Isn't revisiting the
      past each year considered as "Spiritual
      Devolution versus Evolution?"

      Klemp and Company are substituting
      talk (sharing and stories), social interaction,
      feelings from the 4th "Heart" chakra,
      Temple tours, retraining classes, HU
      chants (with focus on the 6th Chakra)
      and entertainment for Spirituality. It's
      a Physical, Astral, Causal, and Mental
      exercise, especially, when one projects
      expectations via the mind's imagination.
      BTW-All Chakras (even the highest Crown
      Chakra which ECKankar doesn't use)
      are seen by them as being Astral Plane.

      So, after 29 years with Klemp in charge
      ECKists are encouraged to make an
      expensive pilgrimage (during a recession)
      to visit the EK Temple and to see and
      hear the Klempster in person. This
      is odd (or is it? $$$) because one would
      think that "the most advanced spiritual
      path" on the planet would encourage
      "INNER" visitations, meetings, satsangs,
      and Worldwide Seminars!

      Why aren't there "Inner" ECK Worldwide
      Seminars? Aren't ECKists advanced
      enough after all of this time? At least
      have an Inner Worldwide for Higher Initiates...
      right?!

      Aren't ECKists encouraged to visit the
      Physical Plane ECK Temple in Chanhassen
      on the "Inner Plane" as well as other
      Physical Plane and Inner Plane Temples?
      Sure!

      So, why is it necessary to travel to
      Minnesota to see and hear Klemp or
      to visit the EK Temple there? Do ECKists
      need the retraining, or do they need
      to reinforce their delusional beliefs that
      Eckankar and Klemp are so much more
      "advanced" than other religions and
      other religious leaders?

      ECKists need to remember one thing:
      Keep smiling... it looks good and fools
      people!

      Prometheus

    • prometheus_973
      Hello Peter, Please don t hold the group to what I wrote in the introduction. I would like to address what you have written. Peter wrote: This may be my only
      Message 2 of 9 , Jul 28 1:35 AM
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        Hello Peter,
        Please don't hold the group
        to what I wrote in the introduction.
        I would like to address what you
        have written.

        Peter wrote:

        This may be my only post to this
        group before I leave it. We'll see.

        Although Eckankar has been my
        preferred spiritual viewpoint for
        30 years, I have climbed onto the
        fence to look around due to a lack
        of personal experience or direct
        evidence to support claims, or
        should I say simply, the lore which
        surrounds the teachings of Eckankar.


        ME: It does seem as though you've
        been on the fence for some time now.
        I will admit that I was unhappy with
        many things on the business side of
        the org and this always carried over
        to the "spiritual" side. And, there was
        a lot of bait and switch that people
        just gradually accepted and had to
        accept to climb higher after years
        and years. I too was/am a skeptic
        and it took me many years to surrender
        to the mahanta. I'm just glad that
        I was able to retain my sanity.




        P: So I joined this group [ESA] to
        entertain my skeptical side, having
        had a tendency to be a bit too "faithful"
        about things I have yet to gain real
        knowledge of.

        ME: I've always been the skeptic
        and wasn't much of a joiner. I always
        had trouble fully accepting/believing
        the hype. And, I never liked the
        emotional approaches some groups
        took.

        P: Personal experience is, in my mind,
        the only thing that proves anything
        conclusively and then only for the
        person in question. I have no way
        of knowing the reality of other people's
        experience and so I work to have
        respect for the viewpoints of others
        and try to find common areas of
        understanding by offering my
        perspective and learning from the
        (hopefully honest and true) experiences
        of others.

        ME: Yes! Others can help us to get to
        a certain point. But, everything involving
        God or Spirit or Whatever requires subjective
        (personal) experiences in both the outer
        and inner realities of our lives. However,
        one needs to be objective and free of
        religious opinions in order to find Truth.
        Unfortunately, religions (Eckankar) requires
        one to become attached to the opinions
        of the leader (and those "higher" than
        yourself), dogma, laws, rules, guidelines,
        belief, faith, hope, promises, scripture,
        tradition, objects (buildings), ceremonies,
        initiation rank, etc.


        P: So... I am curious whether this group
        holds to its statement:

        "We, also, cover the concerns and
        critical thinking involving the consciousness
        and workings of ALL societies, religions,
        and governments and the world as
        a whole.

        Let's share our opinions, new insights
        & perspectives of NOT ONLY Eckankar,
        but of other religions, organizations,
        governments and their leaders too.
        Be respectful to your fellow site members."



        ME: I can't speak for the group. I wrote
        that long ago and I do sometimes approach
        other topics such as: All Religions Are Scams!
        Basically I wrote that because I thought people
        could tie-in other subjects to the main focus
        which is the Scam of Eckankar which Twitchell
        created and Klemp and Company inherited.


        P: Or... if it is ONLY a negative, reactionary
        and closed-minded forum for disgruntled
        ex-members of Eckankar as also expressed
        in the description and mainly by Prometheus_
        973 in the discussion. If so, I have plenty
        of other better ways to spend my time.


        ME: Actually some members are Not ex-ECKists.
        They are current card carrying ECKists. Some
        just don't post... they Read only, but want the
        member benefits of email notification and
        access to the Files. BTW- We aren't here to
        have a discussion on whether Eckankar or
        Klemp is being truthful or is a valid religion.

        After all, Klemp cannot actually communicate
        with his chelas on the "inner" (as he claims
        with his Mahanta powers) or else he would
        not need to have a computer generated
        initiation list sent to RESAs for their recommendation/
        approval.

        And, why the monthly IROs if there
        is "Inner communication" with the
        All Knowing Master?

        Why aren't there "inner" Seminars, or
        "inner Satsang classes" scheduled for
        local areas? The same goes for "inner
        Book discussions." Where's the proof
        in the pudding for all the claims?

        It's all talk and promises and imagination!
        Sure, some people will see Rebazar or
        other guys before even seeing their pic.
        But, this happens in other religions too
        with seeing Jesus or Buddha or Krishna
        or Kirpal Singh (Paul's real Master), etc.
        etc. And, their stories and miracles are
        better than the ones Eckists have! Why
        is that (Google miracles)? Shouldn't a
        card carrying Eckist have even greater
        miracles and events happen to them
        since they are closer/higher to God?
        One would think so, but No!

        And, of course, the Truth will be
        a "negative" and hurtful view of Eckankar
        as seen by brain-washed ECKists.
        I would have seen it the same way
        at one time and become angry. You
        have to buy into it all for it to "work"
        mentally/spiritually. When a person
        (Eckist) has put in that much time and
        money and effort to make rank. You
        (self/ego) is going to defend your choices
        even though there are things and people
        in the ESC org/church or Satsang Society
        that you don't like or want to work with
        or for.

        The Klemp's getting angry with that Third
        Fill-in Postal Clerk in the 9/200(?) H.I.
        Letter showed that something was still wrong.
        [It's listed in the Files].

        Plus there's the EMR/EMF thing that started
        around 1991 and still bothers Klemp.

        How about the Polarians and Adom and Ede
        and the Garden of Eden Myth? This is printed
        in the Shariyat!

        How about what is written in the Shariyat 1
        about the Virgin Birth of the Mahanta when
        Klemp is the 2nd son? How can HK be the
        Mahanta? Is ECK Scripture wrong? Is it
        negative to mention this?

        There's more of course, but let's face it
        an ECKist cannot ask questions after
        the 2nd initiation due to maintaining the
        Law of Silence (one must go to the inner).
        This is a control tactic of religion. One
        must learn to Surrender, and Service will
        keep you too busy to think critically or
        to ask difficult questions. If questions
        are asked the H.I. grapevine will notify
        the RESA Police and this will cause some
        Eckists to be Black Listed on Initiations
        for at least three-five years or until
        another RESA is chosen.

        Maybe you should find something else
        to occupy your time. Live life! Let go
        and let God!

        Personally, I felt a huge weight (stress)
        lifted from my shoulders when I finally
        made the decision to quit Eckankar.
        It was a wonderful and a spiritual
        experience! But, it was very difficult not
        looking to or asking the mahanta for help.

        I finally looked to my Self and to Spirit.
        This is how I became religion free and
        Spiritually Free. I am my own master
        and I have my own personal religion...
        as it should be.

        But, others need experts and holy men
        to look up to because it helps them to
        believe. Of course, that's what causes the
        problems for everyone else. BTW- The
        social connections can be made outside
        of church and I didn't want to hang out
        with too many Eckists anyway.

        Or, go to the 2010 EWWS and celebrate the
        "Year of the ECK Teacher" again. I hear there
        will be another "Acres of Diamonds Meeting"
        and an ECK "Arahata Skills Workshop" again.
        Oh, and I hear that there will be an "ECK-Vidya
        Workshop" even though Eckankar (Klemp)
        no longer sells PT's ECK-Vidya book. And,
        there's that revisit to the Temple and walking
        the Contemplation Trails (again).



        P: Awaiting any new and enlightening information,
        Peter


        ME: The info has been given. But, one needs
        the ears to hear it and the eyes to see it. You,
        still, might not be ready to go it alone with
        Soul and with Spirit but that's okay... you're
        not alone.

        Prometheus


        prometheus_973 wrote:

        It's the "Year of the Teacher" again.
        However, words have two meanings.
        In Eckankar "Teacher," also, refers to
        or means Arahata and this refers to
        or means a 2nd Initiate. Aren't ECKists
        going backwards? Isn't revisiting the
        past each year considered as "Spiritual
        Devolution versus Evolution?"

        Klemp and Company are substituting
        talk (sharing and stories), social interaction,
        feelings from the 4th "Heart" chakra,
        Temple tours, retraining classes, HU
        chants (with focus on the 6th Chakra)
        and entertainment for Spirituality. It's
        a Physical, Astral, Causal, and Mental
        exercise, especially, when one projects
        expectations via the mind's imagination.
        BTW-All Chakras (even the highest Crown
        Chakra which ECKankar doesn't use)
        are seen by them as being Astral Plane.

        So, after 29 years with Klemp in charge
        ECKists are encouraged to make an
        expensive pilgrimage (during a recession)
        to visit the EK Temple and to see and
        hear the Klempster in person. This
        is odd (or is it? $$$) because one would
        think that "the most advanced spiritual
        path" on the planet would encourage
        "INNER" visitations, meetings, satsangs,
        and Worldwide Seminars!

        Why aren't there "Inner" ECK Worldwide
        Seminars? Aren't ECKists advanced
        enough after all of this time? At least
        have an Inner Worldwide for Higher Initiates...
        right?!

        Aren't ECKists encouraged to visit the
        Physical Plane ECK Temple in Chanhassen
        on the "Inner Plane" as well as other
        Physical Plane and Inner Plane Temples?
        Sure!

        So, why is it necessary to travel to
        Minnesota to see and hear Klemp or
        to visit the EK Temple there? Do ECKists
        need the retraining, or do they need
        to reinforce their delusional beliefs that
        Eckankar and Klemp are so much more
        "advanced" than other religions and
        other religious leaders?

        ECKists need to remember one thing:
        Keep smiling... it looks good and fools
        people!

        Prometheus
      • Peter Anton
        Thanks for the elaboration, Pro, but I was hoping for some feedback from someone other than you. No offense, but the opinion of one I ve already heard from
        Message 3 of 9 , Jul 28 11:08 AM
        • 0 Attachment
          Thanks for the elaboration, Pro, but I was hoping for some feedback from someone other than you.  No offense, but the opinion of one I've already heard from does not help me.  I will wait and see if someone else speaks up to see if there will be any useful dialog to keep me here.  I'd normally present some thoughts as seeds for discussion, but I'm still uncertain that it would amount to anymore than fuel for controversy, debate and rants.  Perhaps the Eckist members here are simply keeping an eye on detractor groups and that is partly the reason I dropped in.  I don't have any time for argument about opinions or facts? that people have about the Eckankar movement and organization.  Those are things that only I can and must determine for myself.  If criticism is all this group is all about then I won't be here long.  For now, I will wait until and if I get some other perspectives. 

          Peter

          prometheus_973 wrote:
           

          Hello Peter,
          Please don't hold the group
          to what I wrote in the introduction.
          I would like to address what you
          have written.

          Peter wrote:

          This may be my only post to this
          group before I leave it. We'll see.

          Although Eckankar has been my
          preferred spiritual viewpoint for
          30 years, I have climbed onto the
          fence to look around due to a lack
          of personal experience or direct
          evidence to support claims, or
          should I say simply, the lore which
          surrounds the teachings of Eckankar.

          ME: It does seem as though you've
          been on the fence for some time now.
          I will admit that I was unhappy with
          many things on the business side of
          the org and this always carried over
          to the "spiritual" side. And, there was
          a lot of bait and switch that people
          just gradually accepted and had to
          accept to climb higher after years
          and years. I too was/am a skeptic
          and it took me many years to surrender
          to the mahanta. I'm just glad that
          I was able to retain my sanity.

          P: So I joined this group [ESA] to
          entertain my skeptical side, having
          had a tendency to be a bit too "faithful"
          about things I have yet to gain real
          knowledge of.

          ME: I've always been the skeptic
          and wasn't much of a joiner. I always
          had trouble fully accepting/believing
          the hype. And, I never liked the
          emotional approaches some groups
          took.

          P: Personal experience is, in my mind,
          the only thing that proves anything
          conclusively and then only for the
          person in question. I have no way
          of knowing the reality of other people's
          experience and so I work to have
          respect for the viewpoints of others
          and try to find common areas of
          understanding by offering my
          perspective and learning from the
          (hopefully honest and true) experiences
          of others.

          ME: Yes! Others can help us to get to
          a certain point. But, everything involving
          God or Spirit or Whatever requires subjective
          (personal) experiences in both the outer
          and inner realities of our lives. However,
          one needs to be objective and free of
          religious opinions in order to find Truth.
          Unfortunately, religions (Eckankar) requires
          one to become attached to the opinions
          of the leader (and those "higher" than
          yourself), dogma, laws, rules, guidelines,
          belief, faith, hope, promises, scripture,
          tradition, objects (buildings), ceremonies,
          initiation rank, etc.


          P: So... I am curious whether this group
          holds to its statement:

          "We, also, cover the concerns and
          critical thinking involving the consciousness
          and workings of ALL societies, religions,
          and governments and the world as
          a whole.

          Let's share our opinions, new insights
          & perspectives of NOT ONLY Eckankar,
          but of other religions, organizations,
          governments and their leaders too.
          Be respectful to your fellow site members."

          ME: I can't speak for the group. I wrote
          that long ago and I do sometimes approach
          other topics such as: All Religions Are Scams!
          Basically I wrote that because I thought people
          could tie-in other subjects to the main focus
          which is the Scam of Eckankar which Twitchell
          created and Klemp and Company inherited.

          P: Or... if it is ONLY a negative, reactionary
          and closed-minded forum for disgruntled
          ex-members of Eckankar as also expressed
          in the description and mainly by Prometheus_
          973 in the discussion. If so, I have plenty
          of other better ways to spend my time.

          ME: Actually some members are Not ex-ECKists.
          They are current card carrying ECKists. Some
          just don't post... they Read only, but want the
          member benefits of email notification and
          access to the Files. BTW- We aren't here to
          have a discussion on whether Eckankar or
          Klemp is being truthful or is a valid religion.

          After all, Klemp cannot actually communicate
          with his chelas on the "inner" (as he claims
          with his Mahanta powers) or else he would
          not need to have a computer generated
          initiation list sent to RESAs for their recommendation/
          approval.

          And, why the monthly IROs if there
          is "Inner communication" with the
          All Knowing Master?

          Why aren't there "inner" Seminars, or
          "inner Satsang classes" scheduled for
          local areas? The same goes for "inner
          Book discussions." Where's the proof
          in the pudding for all the claims?

          It's all talk and promises and imagination!
          Sure, some people will see Rebazar or
          other guys before even seeing their pic.
          But, this happens in other religions too
          with seeing Jesus or Buddha or Krishna
          or Kirpal Singh (Paul's real Master), etc.
          etc. And, their stories and miracles are
          better than the ones Eckists have! Why
          is that (Google miracles)? Shouldn't a
          card carrying Eckist have even greater
          miracles and events happen to them
          since they are closer/higher to God?
          One would think so, but No!

          And, of course, the Truth will be
          a "negative" and hurtful view of Eckankar
          as seen by brain-washed ECKists.
          I would have seen it the same way
          at one time and become angry. You
          have to buy into it all for it to "work"
          mentally/spiritually. When a person
          (Eckist) has put in that much time and
          money and effort to make rank. You
          (self/ego) is going to defend your choices
          even though there are things and people
          in the ESC org/church or Satsang Society
          that you don't like or want to work with
          or for.

          The Klemp's getting angry with that Third
          Fill-in Postal Clerk in the 9/200(?) H.I.
          Letter showed that something was still wrong.
          [It's listed in the Files].

          Plus there's the EMR/EMF thing that started
          around 1991 and still bothers Klemp.

          How about the Polarians and Adom and Ede
          and the Garden of Eden Myth? This is printed
          in the Shariyat!

          How about what is written in the Shariyat 1
          about the Virgin Birth of the Mahanta when
          Klemp is the 2nd son? How can HK be the
          Mahanta? Is ECK Scripture wrong? Is it
          negative to mention this?

          There's more of course, but let's face it
          an ECKist cannot ask questions after
          the 2nd initiation due to maintaining the
          Law of Silence (one must go to the inner).
          This is a control tactic of religion. One
          must learn to Surrender, and Service will
          keep you too busy to think critically or
          to ask difficult questions. If questions
          are asked the H.I. grapevine will notify
          the RESA Police and this will cause some
          Eckists to be Black Listed on Initiations
          for at least three-five years or until
          another RESA is chosen.

          Maybe you should find something else
          to occupy your time. Live life! Let go
          and let God!

          Personally, I felt a huge weight (stress)
          lifted from my shoulders when I finally
          made the decision to quit Eckankar.
          It was a wonderful and a spiritual
          experience! But, it was very difficult not
          looking to or asking the mahanta for help.

          I finally looked to my Self and to Spirit.
          This is how I became religion free and
          Spiritually Free. I am my own master
          and I have my own personal religion...
          as it should be.

          But, others need experts and holy men
          to look up to because it helps them to
          believe. Of course, that's what causes the
          problems for everyone else. BTW- The
          social connections can be made outside
          of church and I didn't want to hang out
          with too many Eckists anyway.

          Or, go to the 2010 EWWS and celebrate the
          "Year of the ECK Teacher" again. I hear there
          will be another "Acres of Diamonds Meeting"
          and an ECK "Arahata Skills Workshop" again.
          Oh, and I hear that there will be an "ECK-Vidya
          Workshop" even though Eckankar (Klemp)
          no longer sells PT's ECK-Vidya book. And,
          there's that revisit to the Temple and walking
          the Contemplation Trails (again).

          P: Awaiting any new and enlightening information,
          Peter

          ME: The info has been given. But, one needs
          the ears to hear it and the eyes to see it. You,
          still, might not be ready to go it alone with
          Soul and with Spirit but that's okay... you're
          not alone.

          Prometheus

          prometheus_973 wrote:

          It's the "Year of the Teacher" again.
          However, words have two meanings.
          In Eckankar "Teacher," also, refers to
          or means Arahata and this refers to
          or means a 2nd Initiate. Aren't ECKists
          going backwards? Isn't revisiting the
          past each year considered as "Spiritual
          Devolution versus Evolution?"

          Klemp and Company are substituting
          talk (sharing and stories), social interaction,
          feelings from the 4th "Heart" chakra,
          Temple tours, retraining classes, HU
          chants (with focus on the 6th Chakra)
          and entertainment for Spirituality. It's
          a Physical, Astral, Causal, and Mental
          exercise, especially, when one projects
          expectations via the mind's imagination.
          BTW-All Chakras (even the highest Crown
          Chakra which ECKankar doesn't use)
          are seen by them as being Astral Plane.

          So, after 29 years with Klemp in charge
          ECKists are encouraged to make an
          expensive pilgrimage (during a recession)
          to visit the EK Temple and to see and
          hear the Klempster in person. This
          is odd (or is it? $$$) because one would
          think that "the most advanced spiritual
          path" on the planet would encourage
          "INNER" visitations, meetings, satsangs,
          and Worldwide Seminars!

          Why aren't there "Inner" ECK Worldwide
          Seminars? Aren't ECKists advanced
          enough after all of this time? At least
          have an Inner Worldwide for Higher Initiates...
          right?!

          Aren't ECKists encouraged to visit the
          Physical Plane ECK Temple in Chanhassen
          on the "Inner Plane" as well as other
          Physical Plane and Inner Plane Temples?
          Sure!

          So, why is it necessary to travel to
          Minnesota to see and hear Klemp or
          to visit the EK Temple there? Do ECKists
          need the retraining, or do they need
          to reinforce their delusional beliefs that
          Eckankar and Klemp are so much more
          "advanced" than other religions and
          other religious leaders?

          ECKists need to remember one thing:
          Keep smiling... it looks good and fools
          people!

          Prometheus

        • prometheus_973
          Hello All, I wonder if Klemp will still have the Metal Detectors at the entrance to the main hall for his Saturday night talk? Klemp s Metal Detector policy
          Message 4 of 9 , Jul 28 11:34 PM
          • 0 Attachment
            Hello All,
            I wonder if Klemp will still have the
            Metal Detectors at the entrance to the
            main hall for his Saturday night talk?

            Klemp's Metal Detector policy was
            started right after 9/11/2001, but
            has now become his bi-yearly tradition
            of fear. I say that it's HK's "tradition
            of fear" because the Metal Detectors
            are only there for his Saturday evening
            talk.

            There are no Metal Detectors for workshops
            or for chela meetings. Therefore, the security
            is there to, only, protect Klemp (the Mahanta)
            from harm. Isn't Klemp immortal? And, do
            Muslim terrorists really want to harm Klemp?
            Why? Isn't this way too paranoid? Or, is HK
            claiming that others want to harm him? Why
            not let the Powers That Be have their way?
            Let Fate or Karma decide, or let the Mahanta
            protect himself! If he can't protect himself
            then how can he "protect" ECKists?

            Okay, one more thing. Klemp's image.
            Why does he still have that younger
            looking photo for the Wisdom Notes
            and for the Letter of Light? This is vanity!

            But really, tell me about the Virgin Birth
            of the Mahanta that's mentioned in the
            Shariyat 1. Is Klemp really the Mahanta?
            Why, because he says so?

            HK's the second born (Dwayne was the
            first born, he died of cancer in the '80s)
            and Twitchell's first Shariyat (dictated by
            Rebazar Tarzs) states that the Mahanta
            is born by a Virgin! Look in the index
            under "Mahanta, birth of."

            However, if he ever needed to explain
            himself what would be HK's damage
            control spin? Klemp has implied and
            even stated that Twitchell was noted,
            early on, for stretching the truth and
            promoting himself. Therefore, Eckists
            should take this "Virgin Birth" requirement
            for the Mahanta with a grain of salt
            and not to take these statements
            (in this Holy Book) too literally!

            But, the Catch-22 is that Klemp
            doesn't have to explain himself.
            He is a 14th initiate and you are
            a _ initiate! Case closed! And,
            don't expect an answer to come
            from the "inner higher planes"
            or from an EK Master or even from
            HK, unless, it has outer physical
            plane approval. Catch-22 again!



            The 2010 ECK Worldwide Seminar
            [more redundancy]

            prometheus wrote:
            >
            > Hello Peter,
            > Please don't hold the group
            > to what I wrote in the introduction.
            > I would like to address what you
            > have written.
            >
            > Peter wrote:
            >
            > This may be my only post to this
            > group before I leave it. We'll see.
            >
            > Although Eckankar has been my
            > preferred spiritual viewpoint for
            > 30 years, I have climbed onto the
            > fence to look around due to a lack
            > of personal experience or direct
            > evidence to support claims, or
            > should I say simply, the lore which
            > surrounds the teachings of Eckankar.
            >
            >
            > ME: It does seem as though you've
            > been on the fence for some time now.
            > I will admit that I was unhappy with
            > many things on the business side of
            > the org and this always carried over
            > to the "spiritual" side. And, there was
            > a lot of bait and switch that people
            > just gradually accepted and had to
            > accept to climb higher after years
            > and years. I too was/am a skeptic
            > and it took me many years to surrender
            > to the mahanta. I'm just glad that
            > I was able to retain my sanity.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > P: So I joined this group [ESA] to
            > entertain my skeptical side, having
            > had a tendency to be a bit too "faithful"
            > about things I have yet to gain real
            > knowledge of.
            >
            > ME: I've always been the skeptic
            > and wasn't much of a joiner. I always
            > had trouble fully accepting/believing
            > the hype. And, I never liked the
            > emotional approaches some groups
            > took.
            >
            > P: Personal experience is, in my mind,
            > the only thing that proves anything
            > conclusively and then only for the
            > person in question. I have no way
            > of knowing the reality of other people's
            > experience and so I work to have
            > respect for the viewpoints of others
            > and try to find common areas of
            > understanding by offering my
            > perspective and learning from the
            > (hopefully honest and true) experiences
            > of others.
            >
            > ME: Yes! Others can help us to get to
            > a certain point. But, everything involving
            > God or Spirit or Whatever requires subjective
            > (personal) experiences in both the outer
            > and inner realities of our lives. However,
            > one needs to be objective and free of
            > religious opinions in order to find Truth.
            > Unfortunately, religions (Eckankar) requires
            > one to become attached to the opinions
            > of the leader (and those "higher" than
            > yourself), dogma, laws, rules, guidelines,
            > belief, faith, hope, promises, scripture,
            > tradition, objects (buildings), ceremonies,
            > initiation rank, etc.
            >
            >
            > P: So... I am curious whether this group
            > holds to its statement:
            >
            > "We, also, cover the concerns and
            > critical thinking involving the consciousness
            > and workings of ALL societies, religions,
            > and governments and the world as
            > a whole.
            >
            > Let's share our opinions, new insights
            > & perspectives of NOT ONLY Eckankar,
            > but of other religions, organizations,
            > governments and their leaders too.
            > Be respectful to your fellow site members."
            >
            >
            >
            > ME: I can't speak for the group. I wrote
            > that long ago and I do sometimes approach
            > other topics such as: All Religions Are Scams!
            > Basically I wrote that because I thought people
            > could tie-in other subjects to the main focus
            > which is the Scam of Eckankar which Twitchell
            > created and Klemp and Company inherited.
            >
            >
            > P: Or... if it is ONLY a negative, reactionary
            > and closed-minded forum for disgruntled
            > ex-members of Eckankar as also expressed
            > in the description and mainly by Prometheus_
            > 973 in the discussion. If so, I have plenty
            > of other better ways to spend my time.
            >
            >
            > ME: Actually some members are Not ex-ECKists.
            > They are current card carrying ECKists. Some
            > just don't post... they Read only, but want the
            > member benefits of email notification and
            > access to the Files. BTW- We aren't here to
            > have a discussion on whether Eckankar or
            > Klemp is being truthful or is a valid religion.
            >
            > After all, Klemp cannot actually communicate
            > with his chelas on the "inner" (as he claims
            > with his Mahanta powers) or else he would
            > not need to have a computer generated
            > initiation list sent to RESAs for their recommendation/
            > approval.
            >
            > And, why the monthly IROs if there
            > is "Inner communication" with the
            > All Knowing Master?
            >
            > Why aren't there "inner" Seminars, or
            > "inner Satsang classes" scheduled for
            > local areas? The same goes for "inner
            > Book discussions." Where's the proof
            > in the pudding for all the claims?
            >
            > It's all talk and promises and imagination!
            > Sure, some people will see Rebazar or
            > other guys before even seeing their pic.
            > But, this happens in other religions too
            > with seeing Jesus or Buddha or Krishna
            > or Kirpal Singh (Paul's real Master), etc.
            > etc. And, their stories and miracles are
            > better than the ones Eckists have! Why
            > is that (Google miracles)? Shouldn't a
            > card carrying Eckist have even greater
            > miracles and events happen to them
            > since they are closer/higher to God?
            > One would think so, but No!
            >
            > And, of course, the Truth will be
            > a "negative" and hurtful view of Eckankar
            > as seen by brain-washed ECKists.
            > I would have seen it the same way
            > at one time and become angry. You
            > have to buy into it all for it to "work"
            > mentally/spiritually. When a person
            > (Eckist) has put in that much time and
            > money and effort to make rank. You
            > (self/ego) is going to defend your choices
            > even though there are things and people
            > in the ESC org/church or Satsang Society
            > that you don't like or want to work with
            > or for.
            >
            > The Klemp's getting angry with that Third
            > Fill-in Postal Clerk in the 9/200(?) H.I.
            > Letter showed that something was still wrong.
            > [It's listed in the Files].
            >
            > Plus there's the EMR/EMF thing that started
            > around 1991 and still bothers Klemp.
            >
            > How about the Polarians and Adom and Ede
            > and the Garden of Eden Myth? This is printed
            > in the Shariyat!
            >
            > How about what is written in the Shariyat 1
            > about the Virgin Birth of the Mahanta when
            > Klemp is the 2nd son? How can HK be the
            > Mahanta? Is ECK Scripture wrong? Is it
            > negative to mention this?
            >
            > There's more of course, but let's face it
            > an ECKist cannot ask questions after
            > the 2nd initiation due to maintaining the
            > Law of Silence (one must go to the inner).
            > This is a control tactic of religion. One
            > must learn to Surrender, and Service will
            > keep you too busy to think critically or
            > to ask difficult questions. If questions
            > are asked the H.I. grapevine will notify
            > the RESA Police and this will cause some
            > Eckists to be Black Listed on Initiations
            > for at least three-five years or until
            > another RESA is chosen.
            >
            > Maybe you should find something else
            > to occupy your time. Live life! Let go
            > and let God!
            >
            > Personally, I felt a huge weight (stress)
            > lifted from my shoulders when I finally
            > made the decision to quit Eckankar.
            > It was a wonderful and a spiritual
            > experience! But, it was very difficult not
            > looking to or asking the mahanta for help.
            >
            > I finally looked to my Self and to Spirit.
            > This is how I became religion free and
            > Spiritually Free. I am my own master
            > and I have my own personal religion...
            > as it should be.
            >
            > But, others need experts and holy men
            > to look up to because it helps them to
            > believe. Of course, that's what causes the
            > problems for everyone else. BTW- The
            > social connections can be made outside
            > of church and I didn't want to hang out
            > with too many Eckists anyway.
            >
            > Or, go to the 2010 EWWS and celebrate the
            > "Year of the ECK Teacher" again. I hear there
            > will be another "Acres of Diamonds Meeting"
            > and an ECK "Arahata Skills Workshop" again.
            > Oh, and I hear that there will be an "ECK-Vidya
            > Workshop" even though Eckankar (Klemp)
            > no longer sells PT's ECK-Vidya book. And,
            > there's that revisit to the Temple and walking
            > the Contemplation Trails (again).
            >
            >
            >
            > P: Awaiting any new and enlightening information,
            > Peter
            >
            >
            > ME: The info has been given. But, one needs
            > the ears to hear it and the eyes to see it. You,
            > still, might not be ready to go it alone with
            > Soul and with Spirit but that's okay... you're
            > not alone.
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
            >
            > prometheus_973 wrote:
            >
            > It's the "Year of the Teacher" again.
            > However, words have two meanings.
            > In Eckankar "Teacher," also, refers to
            > or means Arahata and this refers to
            > or means a 2nd Initiate. Aren't ECKists
            > going backwards? Isn't revisiting the
            > past each year considered as "Spiritual
            > Devolution versus Evolution?"
            >
            > Klemp and Company are substituting
            > talk (sharing and stories), social interaction,
            > feelings from the 4th "Heart" chakra,
            > Temple tours, retraining classes, HU
            > chants (with focus on the 6th Chakra)
            > and entertainment for Spirituality. It's
            > a Physical, Astral, Causal, and Mental
            > exercise, especially, when one projects
            > expectations via the mind's imagination.
            > BTW-All Chakras (even the highest Crown
            > Chakra which ECKankar doesn't use)
            > are seen by them as being Astral Plane.
            >
            > So, after 29 years with Klemp in charge
            > ECKists are encouraged to make an
            > expensive pilgrimage (during a recession)
            > to visit the EK Temple and to see and
            > hear the Klempster in person. This
            > is odd (or is it? $$$) because one would
            > think that "the most advanced spiritual
            > path" on the planet would encourage
            > "INNER" visitations, meetings, satsangs,
            > and Worldwide Seminars!
            >
            > Why aren't there "Inner" ECK Worldwide
            > Seminars? Aren't ECKists advanced
            > enough after all of this time? At least
            > have an Inner Worldwide for Higher Initiates...
            > right?!
            >
            > Aren't ECKists encouraged to visit the
            > Physical Plane ECK Temple in Chanhassen
            > on the "Inner Plane" as well as other
            > Physical Plane and Inner Plane Temples?
            > Sure!
            >
            > So, why is it necessary to travel to
            > Minnesota to see and hear Klemp or
            > to visit the EK Temple there? Do ECKists
            > need the retraining, or do they need
            > to reinforce their delusional beliefs that
            > Eckankar and Klemp are so much more
            > "advanced" than other religions and
            > other religious leaders?
            >
            > ECKists need to remember one thing:
            > Keep smiling... it looks good and fools
            > people!
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
          • ctecvie
            HI PETER SO GREAT TO SEE YOU HERE!!! whatever you decide ... you are welcome ... :-)) For me, life has got an extra dimension since leaving and I think it s
            Message 5 of 9 , Jul 28 11:48 PM
            • 0 Attachment
              HI PETER

              SO GREAT TO SEE YOU HERE!!!
              whatever you decide ... you are welcome ... :-))

              For me, life has got an extra dimension since leaving and I think it's just so great to be out. I only have to respect - and maybe overcome - my own limits and not those of someone else ...

              Like you, I have a tendency of being a bit to "faithful" about some things, but eckankar has taught me a good lesson about that and that's good! I can say that I'll never join again another religion or cult or whatever ... I'm just enjoying life so much and am finding the love and the surprises and the protection by life itself - it's not necessary to have a mahanta...

              So, from my experience I can say that I have better experiences now that I am out of eckankar (it will be 6 years soon - time is flying!) than I ever had when I was still in the cult!

              Enjoy reading this and other critical sites and take care! Hope to read more from you!
              Ingrid

              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Peter Anton <peterantonrev@...> wrote:
              >
              > This may be my only post to this group before I leave it. We'll see.
              > Although Eckankar has been my preferred spiritual viewpoint for 30
              > years, I have climbed onto the fence to look around due to a lack of
              > personal experience or direct evidence to support claims, or should I
              > say simply, the lore which surrounds the teachings of Eckankar. So I
              > joined this group to entertain my skeptical side, having had a tendency
              > to be a bit too "faithful" about things I have yet to gain real
              > knowledge of. Personal experience is, in my mind, the only thing that
              > proves anything conclusively and then only for the person in question.
              > I have no way of knowing the reality of other people's experience and so
              > I work to have respect for the viewpoints of others and try to find
              > common areas of understanding by offering my perspective and learning
              > from the (hopefully honest and true) experiences of others.
              >
              > So... I am curious whether this group holds to its statement:
              >
              > "We, also, cover the concerns and critical thinking involving the
              > consciousness and workings of ALL societies, religions, and governments
              > and the world as a whole.
              >
              > Let's share our opinions, new insights & perspectives of NOT ONLY
              > Eckankar, but of other religions, organizations, governments and their
              > leaders too. Be respectful to your fellow site members."
              >
              > Or... if it is ONLY a negative, reactionary and closed-minded forum for
              > disgruntled ex-members of Eckankar as also expressed in the description
              > and mainly by Prometheus_973 in the discussion. If so, I have plenty of
              > other better ways to spend my time.
              >
              > Awaiting any new and enlightening information,
              > Peter
              >
              >
              > prometheus_973 wrote:
              > >
              > > It's the "Year of the Teacher" again.
              > > However, words have two meanings.
              > > In Eckankar "Teacher," also, refers to
              > > or means Arahata and this refers to
              > > or means a 2nd Initiate. Aren't ECKists
              > > going backwards? Isn't revisiting the
              > > past each year considered as "Spiritual
              > > Devolution versus Evolution?"
              > >
              > > Klemp and Company are substituting
              > > talk (sharing and stories), social interaction,
              > > feelings from the 4th "Heart" chakra,
              > > Temple tours, retraining classes, HU
              > > chants (with focus on the 6th Chakra)
              > > and entertainment for Spirituality. It's
              > > a Physical, Astral, Causal, and Mental
              > > exercise, especially, when one projects
              > > expectations via the mind's imagination.
              > > BTW-All Chakras (even the highest Crown
              > > Chakra which ECKankar doesn't use)
              > > are seen by them as being Astral Plane.
              > >
              > > So, after 29 years with Klemp in charge
              > > ECKists are encouraged to make an
              > > expensive pilgrimage (during a recession)
              > > to visit the EK Temple and to see and
              > > hear the Klempster in person. This
              > > is odd (or is it? $$$) because one would
              > > think that "the most advanced spiritual
              > > path" on the planet would encourage
              > > "INNER" visitations, meetings, satsangs,
              > > and Worldwide Seminars!
              > >
              > > Why aren't there "Inner" ECK Worldwide
              > > Seminars? Aren't ECKists advanced
              > > enough after all of this time? At least
              > > have an Inner Worldwide for Higher Initiates...
              > > right?!
              > >
              > > Aren't ECKists encouraged to visit the
              > > Physical Plane ECK Temple in Chanhassen
              > > on the "Inner Plane" as well as other
              > > Physical Plane and Inner Plane Temples?
              > > Sure!
              > >
              > > So, why is it necessary to travel to
              > > Minnesota to see and hear Klemp or
              > > to visit the EK Temple there? Do ECKists
              > > need the retraining, or do they need
              > > to reinforce their delusional beliefs that
              > > Eckankar and Klemp are so much more
              > > "advanced" than other religions and
              > > other religious leaders?
              > >
              > > ECKists need to remember one thing:
              > > Keep smiling... it looks good and fools
              > > people!
              > >
              > > Prometheus
              > >
              > >
              >
            • mishmisha9
              Hi, Peter! Welcome to the site. I m not really into discussing every or any other religions but in just brief passing. I m just not interested in the man made
              Message 6 of 9 , Jul 29 12:10 AM
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi, Peter!

                Welcome to the site. I'm not really into discussing every or any
                other religions but in just brief passing. I'm just not interested in
                the man made religions that in my opinion are basically presented
                to keep the masses of people under control by implanting a lot of
                fear and guilt in the followers. Eckankar on the surface may not
                seem to be that way but in reality it is. It diverts one's attention
                for one thing from the real world and it demands time and money
                being expended. But if people enjoy the delusion and feel comfortable
                with it . . . well, okay!

                Anyway, would you like to share what troubles you about eckankar?
                What are you questioning at this point?

                There is a lot of information in the archives . . . hope you will spend
                some time reading. I enjoyed posting my reviews on Klemp's "Those
                Wonderful ECK Masters" . .. to me, that little jewel of a book revealed
                how Klemp manipulates and promotes eckankar's false promises and spins.

                Of course, you are correct that you have to decide for yourself. This site
                shares information about the false and flawed teachings . . . the big
                ones are the lies and plagiarisms.

                As for members being disgruntled . . . what's wrong with that? If you
                feel duped, of course, you will feel disgruntled. Why should members
                feel kindly about the lies and wasted time in eckankar?

                This is not a wishy washy place.

                Take care,
                Mish

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Peter Anton <peterantonrev@...> wrote:
                >
                > Thanks for the elaboration, Pro, but I was hoping for some feedback from
                > someone other than you. No offense, but the opinion of one I've already
                > heard from does not help me. I will wait and see if someone else speaks
                > up to see if there will be any useful dialog to keep me here. I'd
                > normally present some thoughts as seeds for discussion, but I'm still
                > uncertain that it would amount to anymore than fuel for controversy,
                > debate and rants. Perhaps the Eckist members here are simply keeping an
                > eye on detractor groups and that is partly the reason I dropped in. I
                > don't have any time for argument about opinions or facts? that people
                > have about the Eckankar movement and organization. Those are things
                > that only I can and must determine for myself. If criticism is all this
                > group is all about then I won't be here long. For now, I will wait
                > until and if I get some other perspectives.
                >
                > Peter
                >
                > prometheus_973 wrote:
                > >
                > > Hello Peter,
                > > Please don't hold the group
                > > to what I wrote in the introduction.
                > > I would like to address what you
                > > have written.
                > >
                > > Peter wrote:
                > >
                > > This may be my only post to this
                > > group before I leave it. We'll see.
                > >
                > > Although Eckankar has been my
                > > preferred spiritual viewpoint for
                > > 30 years, I have climbed onto the
                > > fence to look around due to a lack
                > > of personal experience or direct
                > > evidence to support claims, or
                > > should I say simply, the lore which
                > > surrounds the teachings of Eckankar.
                > >
                > > ME: It does seem as though you've
                > > been on the fence for some time now.
                > > I will admit that I was unhappy with
                > > many things on the business side of
                > > the org and this always carried over
                > > to the "spiritual" side. And, there was
                > > a lot of bait and switch that people
                > > just gradually accepted and had to
                > > accept to climb higher after years
                > > and years. I too was/am a skeptic
                > > and it took me many years to surrender
                > > to the mahanta. I'm just glad that
                > > I was able to retain my sanity.
                > >
                > > P: So I joined this group [ESA] to
                > > entertain my skeptical side, having
                > > had a tendency to be a bit too "faithful"
                > > about things I have yet to gain real
                > > knowledge of.
                > >
                > > ME: I've always been the skeptic
                > > and wasn't much of a joiner. I always
                > > had trouble fully accepting/believing
                > > the hype. And, I never liked the
                > > emotional approaches some groups
                > > took.
                > >
                > > P: Personal experience is, in my mind,
                > > the only thing that proves anything
                > > conclusively and then only for the
                > > person in question. I have no way
                > > of knowing the reality of other people's
                > > experience and so I work to have
                > > respect for the viewpoints of others
                > > and try to find common areas of
                > > understanding by offering my
                > > perspective and learning from the
                > > (hopefully honest and true) experiences
                > > of others.
                > >
                > > ME: Yes! Others can help us to get to
                > > a certain point. But, everything involving
                > > God or Spirit or Whatever requires subjective
                > > (personal) experiences in both the outer
                > > and inner realities of our lives. However,
                > > one needs to be objective and free of
                > > religious opinions in order to find Truth.
                > > Unfortunately, religions (Eckankar) requires
                > > one to become attached to the opinions
                > > of the leader (and those "higher" than
                > > yourself), dogma, laws, rules, guidelines,
                > > belief, faith, hope, promises, scripture,
                > > tradition, objects (buildings), ceremonies,
                > > initiation rank, etc.
                > >
                > >
                > > P: So... I am curious whether this group
                > > holds to its statement:
                > >
                > > "We, also, cover the concerns and
                > > critical thinking involving the consciousness
                > > and workings of ALL societies, religions,
                > > and governments and the world as
                > > a whole.
                > >
                > > Let's share our opinions, new insights
                > > & perspectives of NOT ONLY Eckankar,
                > > but of other religions, organizations,
                > > governments and their leaders too.
                > > Be respectful to your fellow site members."
                > >
                > > ME: I can't speak for the group. I wrote
                > > that long ago and I do sometimes approach
                > > other topics such as: All Religions Are Scams!
                > > Basically I wrote that because I thought people
                > > could tie-in other subjects to the main focus
                > > which is the Scam of Eckankar which Twitchell
                > > created and Klemp and Company inherited.
                > >
                > > P: Or... if it is ONLY a negative, reactionary
                > > and closed-minded forum for disgruntled
                > > ex-members of Eckankar as also expressed
                > > in the description and mainly by Prometheus_
                > > 973 in the discussion. If so, I have plenty
                > > of other better ways to spend my time.
                > >
                > > ME: Actually some members are Not ex-ECKists.
                > > They are current card carrying ECKists. Some
                > > just don't post... they Read only, but want the
                > > member benefits of email notification and
                > > access to the Files. BTW- We aren't here to
                > > have a discussion on whether Eckankar or
                > > Klemp is being truthful or is a valid religion.
                > >
                > > After all, Klemp cannot actually communicate
                > > with his chelas on the "inner" (as he claims
                > > with his Mahanta powers) or else he would
                > > not need to have a computer generated
                > > initiation list sent to RESAs for their recommendation/
                > > approval.
                > >
                > > And, why the monthly IROs if there
                > > is "Inner communication" with the
                > > All Knowing Master?
                > >
                > > Why aren't there "inner" Seminars, or
                > > "inner Satsang classes" scheduled for
                > > local areas? The same goes for "inner
                > > Book discussions." Where's the proof
                > > in the pudding for all the claims?
                > >
                > > It's all talk and promises and imagination!
                > > Sure, some people will see Rebazar or
                > > other guys before even seeing their pic.
                > > But, this happens in other religions too
                > > with seeing Jesus or Buddha or Krishna
                > > or Kirpal Singh (Paul's real Master), etc.
                > > etc. And, their stories and miracles are
                > > better than the ones Eckists have! Why
                > > is that (Google miracles)? Shouldn't a
                > > card carrying Eckist have even greater
                > > miracles and events happen to them
                > > since they are closer/higher to God?
                > > One would think so, but No!
                > >
                > > And, of course, the Truth will be
                > > a "negative" and hurtful view of Eckankar
                > > as seen by brain-washed ECKists.
                > > I would have seen it the same way
                > > at one time and become angry. You
                > > have to buy into it all for it to "work"
                > > mentally/spiritually. When a person
                > > (Eckist) has put in that much time and
                > > money and effort to make rank. You
                > > (self/ego) is going to defend your choices
                > > even though there are things and people
                > > in the ESC org/church or Satsang Society
                > > that you don't like or want to work with
                > > or for.
                > >
                > > The Klemp's getting angry with that Third
                > > Fill-in Postal Clerk in the 9/200(?) H.I.
                > > Letter showed that something was still wrong.
                > > [It's listed in the Files].
                > >
                > > Plus there's the EMR/EMF thing that started
                > > around 1991 and still bothers Klemp.
                > >
                > > How about the Polarians and Adom and Ede
                > > and the Garden of Eden Myth? This is printed
                > > in the Shariyat!
                > >
                > > How about what is written in the Shariyat 1
                > > about the Virgin Birth of the Mahanta when
                > > Klemp is the 2nd son? How can HK be the
                > > Mahanta? Is ECK Scripture wrong? Is it
                > > negative to mention this?
                > >
                > > There's more of course, but let's face it
                > > an ECKist cannot ask questions after
                > > the 2nd initiation due to maintaining the
                > > Law of Silence (one must go to the inner).
                > > This is a control tactic of religion. One
                > > must learn to Surrender, and Service will
                > > keep you too busy to think critically or
                > > to ask difficult questions. If questions
                > > are asked the H.I. grapevine will notify
                > > the RESA Police and this will cause some
                > > Eckists to be Black Listed on Initiations
                > > for at least three-five years or until
                > > another RESA is chosen.
                > >
                > > Maybe you should find something else
                > > to occupy your time. Live life! Let go
                > > and let God!
                > >
                > > Personally, I felt a huge weight (stress)
                > > lifted from my shoulders when I finally
                > > made the decision to quit Eckankar.
                > > It was a wonderful and a spiritual
                > > experience! But, it was very difficult not
                > > looking to or asking the mahanta for help.
                > >
                > > I finally looked to my Self and to Spirit.
                > > This is how I became religion free and
                > > Spiritually Free. I am my own master
                > > and I have my own personal religion...
                > > as it should be.
                > >
                > > But, others need experts and holy men
                > > to look up to because it helps them to
                > > believe. Of course, that's what causes the
                > > problems for everyone else. BTW- The
                > > social connections can be made outside
                > > of church and I didn't want to hang out
                > > with too many Eckists anyway.
                > >
                > > Or, go to the 2010 EWWS and celebrate the
                > > "Year of the ECK Teacher" again. I hear there
                > > will be another "Acres of Diamonds Meeting"
                > > and an ECK "Arahata Skills Workshop" again.
                > > Oh, and I hear that there will be an "ECK-Vidya
                > > Workshop" even though Eckankar (Klemp)
                > > no longer sells PT's ECK-Vidya book. And,
                > > there's that revisit to the Temple and walking
                > > the Contemplation Trails (again).
                > >
                > > P: Awaiting any new and enlightening information,
                > > Peter
                > >
                > > ME: The info has been given. But, one needs
                > > the ears to hear it and the eyes to see it. You,
                > > still, might not be ready to go it alone with
                > > Soul and with Spirit but that's okay... you're
                > > not alone.
                > >
                > > Prometheus
                > >
                > > prometheus_973 wrote:
                > >
                > > It's the "Year of the Teacher" again.
                > > However, words have two meanings.
                > > In Eckankar "Teacher," also, refers to
                > > or means Arahata and this refers to
                > > or means a 2nd Initiate. Aren't ECKists
                > > going backwards? Isn't revisiting the
                > > past each year considered as "Spiritual
                > > Devolution versus Evolution?"
                > >
                > > Klemp and Company are substituting
                > > talk (sharing and stories), social interaction,
                > > feelings from the 4th "Heart" chakra,
                > > Temple tours, retraining classes, HU
                > > chants (with focus on the 6th Chakra)
                > > and entertainment for Spirituality. It's
                > > a Physical, Astral, Causal, and Mental
                > > exercise, especially, when one projects
                > > expectations via the mind's imagination.
                > > BTW-All Chakras (even the highest Crown
                > > Chakra which ECKankar doesn't use)
                > > are seen by them as being Astral Plane.
                > >
                > > So, after 29 years with Klemp in charge
                > > ECKists are encouraged to make an
                > > expensive pilgrimage (during a recession)
                > > to visit the EK Temple and to see and
                > > hear the Klempster in person. This
                > > is odd (or is it? $$$) because one would
                > > think that "the most advanced spiritual
                > > path" on the planet would encourage
                > > "INNER" visitations, meetings, satsangs,
                > > and Worldwide Seminars!
                > >
                > > Why aren't there "Inner" ECK Worldwide
                > > Seminars? Aren't ECKists advanced
                > > enough after all of this time? At least
                > > have an Inner Worldwide for Higher Initiates...
                > > right?!
                > >
                > > Aren't ECKists encouraged to visit the
                > > Physical Plane ECK Temple in Chanhassen
                > > on the "Inner Plane" as well as other
                > > Physical Plane and Inner Plane Temples?
                > > Sure!
                > >
                > > So, why is it necessary to travel to
                > > Minnesota to see and hear Klemp or
                > > to visit the EK Temple there? Do ECKists
                > > need the retraining, or do they need
                > > to reinforce their delusional beliefs that
                > > Eckankar and Klemp are so much more
                > > "advanced" than other religions and
                > > other religious leaders?
                > >
                > > ECKists need to remember one thing:
                > > Keep smiling... it looks good and fools
                > > people!
                > >
                > > Prometheus
                > >
                > >
                >
              • Peter Anton
                Thank you Ingrid and Mish for the comments. Let me remind you that I don t have any gripe with Eckankar whatsoever. My problem as stated in my first post is
                Message 7 of 9 , Jul 29 12:32 AM
                • 0 Attachment
                  Thank you Ingrid and Mish for the comments.  Let me remind you that I don't have any gripe with Eckankar whatsoever.  My problem as stated in my first post is a lack of personal experience that matches the lore put forth in Eck circles.  This is an issue with me and the spiritual path that I am walking.  I have absolutely no evidence that the Eckankar organization is anything but upstanding and well meaning.  My problem, in short, is MY problem.  Whatever conspiracies or deceptions others see are their perceptions and none of my business. 

                  I can see now that this is not the place for me.  Have a good life, everyone.

                  Peter



                  mishmisha9 wrote:
                   

                  Hi, Peter!

                  Welcome to the site. I'm not really into discussing every or any
                  other religions but in just brief passing. I'm just not interested in
                  the man made religions that in my opinion are basically presented
                  to keep the masses of people under control by implanting a lot of
                  fear and guilt in the followers. Eckankar on the surface may not
                  seem to be that way but in reality it is. It diverts one's attention
                  for one thing from the real world and it demands time and money
                  being expended. But if people enjoy the delusion and feel comfortable
                  with it . . . well, okay!

                  Anyway, would you like to share what troubles you about eckankar?
                  What are you questioning at this point?

                  There is a lot of information in the archives . . . hope you will spend
                  some time reading. I enjoyed posting my reviews on Klemp's "Those
                  Wonderful ECK Masters" . .. to me, that little jewel of a book revealed
                  how Klemp manipulates and promotes eckankar's false promises and spins.

                  Of course, you are correct that you have to decide for yourself. This site
                  shares information about the false and flawed teachings . . . the big
                  ones are the lies and plagiarisms.

                  As for members being disgruntled . . . what's wrong with that? If you
                  feel duped, of course, you will feel disgruntled. Why should members
                  feel kindly about the lies and wasted time in eckankar?

                  This is not a wishy washy place.

                  Take care,
                  Mish

                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Peter Anton <peterantonrev@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Thanks for the elaboration, Pro, but I was hoping for some feedback from
                  > someone other than you. No offense, but the opinion of one I've already
                  > heard from does not help me. I will wait and see if someone else speaks
                  > up to see if there will be any useful dialog to keep me here. I'd
                  > normally present some thoughts as seeds for discussion, but I'm still
                  > uncertain that it would amount to anymore than fuel for controversy,
                  > debate and rants. Perhaps the Eckist members here are simply keeping an
                  > eye on detractor groups and that is partly the reason I dropped in. I
                  > don't have any time for argument about opinions or facts? that people
                  > have about the Eckankar movement and organization. Those are things
                  > that only I can and must determine for myself. If criticism is all this
                  > group is all about then I won't be here long. For now, I will wait
                  > until and if I get some other perspectives.
                  >
                  > Peter
                  >
                  > prometheus_973 wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hello Peter,
                  > > Please don't hold the group
                  > > to what I wrote in the introduction.
                  > > I would like to address what you
                  > > have written.
                  > >
                  > > Peter wrote:
                  > >
                  > > This may be my only post to this
                  > > group before I leave it. We'll see.
                  > >
                  > > Although Eckankar has been my
                  > > preferred spiritual viewpoint for
                  > > 30 years, I have climbed onto the
                  > > fence to look around due to a lack
                  > > of personal experience or direct
                  > > evidence to support claims, or
                  > > should I say simply, the lore which
                  > > surrounds the teachings of Eckankar.
                  > >
                  > > ME: It does seem as though you've
                  > > been on the fence for some time now.
                  > > I will admit that I was unhappy with
                  > > many things on the business side of
                  > > the org and this always carried over
                  > > to the "spiritual" side. And, there was
                  > > a lot of bait and switch that people
                  > > just gradually accepted and had to
                  > > accept to climb higher after years
                  > > and years. I too was/am a skeptic
                  > > and it took me many years to surrender
                  > > to the mahanta. I'm just glad that
                  > > I was able to retain my sanity.
                  > >
                  > > P: So I joined this group [ESA] to
                  > > entertain my skeptical side, having
                  > > had a tendency to be a bit too "faithful"
                  > > about things I have yet to gain real
                  > > knowledge of.
                  > >
                  > > ME: I've always been the skeptic
                  > > and wasn't much of a joiner. I always
                  > > had trouble fully accepting/believing
                  > > the hype. And, I never liked the
                  > > emotional approaches some groups
                  > > took.
                  > >
                  > > P: Personal experience is, in my mind,
                  > > the only thing that proves anything
                  > > conclusively and then only for the
                  > > person in question. I have no way
                  > > of knowing the reality of other people's
                  > > experience and so I work to have
                  > > respect for the viewpoints of others
                  > > and try to find common areas of
                  > > understanding by offering my
                  > > perspective and learning from the
                  > > (hopefully honest and true) experiences
                  > > of others.
                  > >
                  > > ME: Yes! Others can help us to get to
                  > > a certain point. But, everything involving
                  > > God or Spirit or Whatever requires subjective
                  > > (personal) experiences in both the outer
                  > > and inner realities of our lives. However,
                  > > one needs to be objective and free of
                  > > religious opinions in order to find Truth.
                  > > Unfortunately, religions (Eckankar) requires
                  > > one to become attached to the opinions
                  > > of the leader (and those "higher" than
                  > > yourself), dogma, laws, rules, guidelines,
                  > > belief, faith, hope, promises, scripture,
                  > > tradition, objects (buildings), ceremonies,
                  > > initiation rank, etc.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > P: So... I am curious whether this group
                  > > holds to its statement:
                  > >
                  > > "We, also, cover the concerns and
                  > > critical thinking involving the consciousness
                  > > and workings of ALL societies, religions,
                  > > and governments and the world as
                  > > a whole.
                  > >
                  > > Let's share our opinions, new insights
                  > > & perspectives of NOT ONLY Eckankar,
                  > > but of other religions, organizations,
                  > > governments and their leaders too.
                  > > Be respectful to your fellow site members."
                  > >
                  > > ME: I can't speak for the group. I wrote
                  > > that long ago and I do sometimes approach
                  > > other topics such as: All Religions Are Scams!
                  > > Basically I wrote that because I thought people
                  > > could tie-in other subjects to the main focus
                  > > which is the Scam of Eckankar which Twitchell
                  > > created and Klemp and Company inherited.
                  > >
                  > > P: Or... if it is ONLY a negative, reactionary
                  > > and closed-minded forum for disgruntled
                  > > ex-members of Eckankar as also expressed
                  > > in the description and mainly by Prometheus_
                  > > 973 in the discussion. If so, I have plenty
                  > > of other better ways to spend my time.
                  > >
                  > > ME: Actually some members are Not ex-ECKists.
                  > > They are current card carrying ECKists. Some
                  > > just don't post... they Read only, but want the
                  > > member benefits of email notification and
                  > > access to the Files. BTW- We aren't here to
                  > > have a discussion on whether Eckankar or
                  > > Klemp is being truthful or is a valid religion.
                  > >
                  > > After all, Klemp cannot actually communicate
                  > > with his chelas on the "inner" (as he claims
                  > > with his Mahanta powers) or else he would
                  > > not need to have a computer generated
                  > > initiation list sent to RESAs for their recommendation/
                  > > approval.
                  > >
                  > > And, why the monthly IROs if there
                  > > is "Inner communication" with the
                  > > All Knowing Master?
                  > >
                  > > Why aren't there "inner" Seminars, or
                  > > "inner Satsang classes" scheduled for
                  > > local areas? The same goes for "inner
                  > > Book discussions." Where's the proof
                  > > in the pudding for all the claims?
                  > >
                  > > It's all talk and promises and imagination!
                  > > Sure, some people will see Rebazar or
                  > > other guys before even seeing their pic.
                  > > But, this happens in other religions too
                  > > with seeing Jesus or Buddha or Krishna
                  > > or Kirpal Singh (Paul's real Master), etc.
                  > > etc. And, their stories and miracles are
                  > > better than the ones Eckists have! Why
                  > > is that (Google miracles)? Shouldn't a
                  > > card carrying Eckist have even greater
                  > > miracles and events happen to them
                  > > since they are closer/higher to God?
                  > > One would think so, but No!
                  > >
                  > > And, of course, the Truth will be
                  > > a "negative" and hurtful view of Eckankar
                  > > as seen by brain-washed ECKists.
                  > > I would have seen it the same way
                  > > at one time and become angry. You
                  > > have to buy into it all for it to "work"
                  > > mentally/spiritually. When a person
                  > > (Eckist) has put in that much time and
                  > > money and effort to make rank. You
                  > > (self/ego) is going to defend your choices
                  > > even though there are things and people
                  > > in the ESC org/church or Satsang Society
                  > > that you don't like or want to work with
                  > > or for.
                  > >
                  > > The Klemp's getting angry with that Third
                  > > Fill-in Postal Clerk in the 9/200(?) H.I.
                  > > Letter showed that something was still wrong.
                  > > [It's listed in the Files].
                  > >
                  > > Plus there's the EMR/EMF thing that started
                  > > around 1991 and still bothers Klemp.
                  > >
                  > > How about the Polarians and Adom and Ede
                  > > and the Garden of Eden Myth? This is printed
                  > > in the Shariyat!
                  > >
                  > > How about what is written in the Shariyat 1
                  > > about the Virgin Birth of the Mahanta when
                  > > Klemp is the 2nd son? How can HK be the
                  > > Mahanta? Is ECK Scripture wrong? Is it
                  > > negative to mention this?
                  > >
                  > > There's more of course, but let's face it
                  > > an ECKist cannot ask questions after
                  > > the 2nd initiation due to maintaining the
                  > > Law of Silence (one must go to the inner).
                  > > This is a control tactic of religion. One
                  > > must learn to Surrender, and Service will
                  > > keep you too busy to think critically or
                  > > to ask difficult questions. If questions
                  > > are asked the H.I. grapevine will notify
                  > > the RESA Police and this will cause some
                  > > Eckists to be Black Listed on Initiations
                  > > for at least three-five years or until
                  > > another RESA is chosen.
                  > >
                  > > Maybe you should find something else
                  > > to occupy your time. Live life! Let go
                  > > and let God!
                  > >
                  > > Personally, I felt a huge weight (stress)
                  > > lifted from my shoulders when I finally
                  > > made the decision to quit Eckankar.
                  > > It was a wonderful and a spiritual
                  > > experience! But, it was very difficult not
                  > > looking to or asking the mahanta for help.
                  > >
                  > > I finally looked to my Self and to Spirit.
                  > > This is how I became religion free and
                  > > Spiritually Free. I am my own master
                  > > and I have my own personal religion...
                  > > as it should be.
                  > >
                  > > But, others need experts and holy men
                  > > to look up to because it helps them to
                  > > believe. Of course, that's what causes the
                  > > problems for everyone else. BTW- The
                  > > social connections can be made outside
                  > > of church and I didn't want to hang out
                  > > with too many Eckists anyway.
                  > >
                  > > Or, go to the 2010 EWWS and celebrate the
                  > > "Year of the ECK Teacher" again. I hear there
                  > > will be another "Acres of Diamonds Meeting"
                  > > and an ECK "Arahata Skills Workshop" again.
                  > > Oh, and I hear that there will be an "ECK-Vidya
                  > > Workshop" even though Eckankar (Klemp)
                  > > no longer sells PT's ECK-Vidya book. And,
                  > > there's that revisit to the Temple and walking
                  > > the Contemplation Trails (again).
                  > >
                  > > P: Awaiting any new and enlightening information,
                  > > Peter
                  > >
                  > > ME: The info has been given. But, one needs
                  > > the ears to hear it and the eyes to see it. You,
                  > > still, might not be ready to go it alone with
                  > > Soul and with Spirit but that's okay... you're
                  > > not alone.
                  > >
                  > > Prometheus
                  > >
                  > > prometheus_973 wrote:
                  > >
                  > > It's the "Year of the Teacher" again.
                  > > However, words have two meanings.
                  > > In Eckankar "Teacher," also, refers to
                  > > or means Arahata and this refers to
                  > > or means a 2nd Initiate. Aren't ECKists
                  > > going backwards? Isn't revisiting the
                  > > past each year considered as "Spiritual
                  > > Devolution versus Evolution?"
                  > >
                  > > Klemp and Company are substituting
                  > > talk (sharing and stories), social interaction,
                  > > feelings from the 4th "Heart" chakra,
                  > > Temple tours, retraining classes, HU
                  > > chants (with focus on the 6th Chakra)
                  > > and entertainment for Spirituality. It's
                  > > a Physical, Astral, Causal, and Mental
                  > > exercise, especially, when one projects
                  > > expectations via the mind's imagination.
                  > > BTW-All Chakras (even the highest Crown
                  > > Chakra which ECKankar doesn't use)
                  > > are seen by them as being Astral Plane.
                  > >
                  > > So, after 29 years with Klemp in charge
                  > > ECKists are encouraged to make an
                  > > expensive pilgrimage (during a recession)
                  > > to visit the EK Temple and to see and
                  > > hear the Klempster in person. This
                  > > is odd (or is it? $$$) because one would
                  > > think that "the most advanced spiritual
                  > > path" on the planet would encourage
                  > > "INNER" visitations, meetings, satsangs,
                  > > and Worldwide Seminars!
                  > >
                  > > Why aren't there "Inner" ECK Worldwide
                  > > Seminars? Aren't ECKists advanced
                  > > enough after all of this time? At least
                  > > have an Inner Worldwide for Higher Initiates...
                  > > right?!
                  > >
                  > > Aren't ECKists encouraged to visit the
                  > > Physical Plane ECK Temple in Chanhassen
                  > > on the "Inner Plane" as well as other
                  > > Physical Plane and Inner Plane Temples?
                  > > Sure!
                  > >
                  > > So, why is it necessary to travel to
                  > > Minnesota to see and hear Klemp or
                  > > to visit the EK Temple there? Do ECKists
                  > > need the retraining, or do they need
                  > > to reinforce their delusional beliefs that
                  > > Eckankar and Klemp are so much more
                  > > "advanced" than other religions and
                  > > other religious leaders?
                  > >
                  > > ECKists need to remember one thing:
                  > > Keep smiling... it looks good and fools
                  > > people!
                  > >
                  > > Prometheus
                  > >
                  > >
                  >

                • mishmisha9
                  Peter, I hope you can figure out why you are having this lack of personal experience while following the eckankar path . . . maybe you need to investigate why
                  Message 8 of 9 , Jul 29 11:36 PM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Peter, I hope you can figure out why you are having this lack of
                    personal experience while following the eckankar path . . . maybe
                    you need to investigate why you are not being successful as I assume
                    that you are doing the spiritual exercises as taught by Klemp? This
                    has to be important, because how can you be making any progress on
                    the eck spiritual path you are trying to walk? Are you at a stand still rather
                    than sitting on the fence? Must be very frustrating for you.

                    Well, I hope you figure out how to take care of your problem and then can
                    have a nice life!!

                    Mish

                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Peter Anton <peterantonrev@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Thank you Ingrid and Mish for the comments. Let me remind you that I
                    > don't have any gripe with Eckankar whatsoever. My problem as stated in
                    > my first post is a lack of personal experience that matches the lore put
                    > forth in Eck circles. This is an issue with me and the spiritual path
                    > that I am walking. I have absolutely no evidence that the Eckankar
                    > organization is anything but upstanding and well meaning. My problem,
                    > in short, is MY problem. Whatever conspiracies or deceptions others see
                    > are their perceptions and none of my business.
                    >
                    > I can see now that this is not the place for me. Have a good life,
                    > everyone.
                    >
                    > Peter
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > mishmisha9 wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hi, Peter!
                    > >
                    > > Welcome to the site. I'm not really into discussing every or any
                    > > other religions but in just brief passing. I'm just not interested in
                    > > the man made religions that in my opinion are basically presented
                    > > to keep the masses of people under control by implanting a lot of
                    > > fear and guilt in the followers. Eckankar on the surface may not
                    > > seem to be that way but in reality it is. It diverts one's attention
                    > > for one thing from the real world and it demands time and money
                    > > being expended. But if people enjoy the delusion and feel comfortable
                    > > with it . . . well, okay!
                    > >
                    > > Anyway, would you like to share what troubles you about eckankar?
                    > > What are you questioning at this point?
                    > >
                    > > There is a lot of information in the archives . . . hope you will spend
                    > > some time reading. I enjoyed posting my reviews on Klemp's "Those
                    > > Wonderful ECK Masters" . .. to me, that little jewel of a book revealed
                    > > how Klemp manipulates and promotes eckankar's false promises and spins.
                    > >
                    > > Of course, you are correct that you have to decide for yourself. This site
                    > > shares information about the false and flawed teachings . . . the big
                    > > ones are the lies and plagiarisms.
                    > >
                    > > As for members being disgruntled . . . what's wrong with that? If you
                    > > feel duped, of course, you will feel disgruntled. Why should members
                    > > feel kindly about the lies and wasted time in eckankar?
                    > >
                    > > This is not a wishy washy place.
                    > >
                    > > Take care,
                    > > Mish
                    > >
                    > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    > > <mailto:EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous%40yahoogroups.com>, Peter Anton
                    > > <peterantonrev@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Thanks for the elaboration, Pro, but I was hoping for some feedback
                    > > from
                    > > > someone other than you. No offense, but the opinion of one I've already
                    > > > heard from does not help me. I will wait and see if someone else speaks
                    > > > up to see if there will be any useful dialog to keep me here. I'd
                    > > > normally present some thoughts as seeds for discussion, but I'm still
                    > > > uncertain that it would amount to anymore than fuel for controversy,
                    > > > debate and rants. Perhaps the Eckist members here are simply keeping an
                    > > > eye on detractor groups and that is partly the reason I dropped in. I
                    > > > don't have any time for argument about opinions or facts? that people
                    > > > have about the Eckankar movement and organization. Those are things
                    > > > that only I can and must determine for myself. If criticism is all this
                    > > > group is all about then I won't be here long. For now, I will wait
                    > > > until and if I get some other perspectives.
                    > > >
                    > > > Peter
                    > > >
                    > > > prometheus_973 wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Hello Peter,
                    > > > > Please don't hold the group
                    > > > > to what I wrote in the introduction.
                    > > > > I would like to address what you
                    > > > > have written.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Peter wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > This may be my only post to this
                    > > > > group before I leave it. We'll see.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Although Eckankar has been my
                    > > > > preferred spiritual viewpoint for
                    > > > > 30 years, I have climbed onto the
                    > > > > fence to look around due to a lack
                    > > > > of personal experience or direct
                    > > > > evidence to support claims, or
                    > > > > should I say simply, the lore which
                    > > > > surrounds the teachings of Eckankar.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > ME: It does seem as though you've
                    > > > > been on the fence for some time now.
                    > > > > I will admit that I was unhappy with
                    > > > > many things on the business side of
                    > > > > the org and this always carried over
                    > > > > to the "spiritual" side. And, there was
                    > > > > a lot of bait and switch that people
                    > > > > just gradually accepted and had to
                    > > > > accept to climb higher after years
                    > > > > and years. I too was/am a skeptic
                    > > > > and it took me many years to surrender
                    > > > > to the mahanta. I'm just glad that
                    > > > > I was able to retain my sanity.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > P: So I joined this group [ESA] to
                    > > > > entertain my skeptical side, having
                    > > > > had a tendency to be a bit too "faithful"
                    > > > > about things I have yet to gain real
                    > > > > knowledge of.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > ME: I've always been the skeptic
                    > > > > and wasn't much of a joiner. I always
                    > > > > had trouble fully accepting/believing
                    > > > > the hype. And, I never liked the
                    > > > > emotional approaches some groups
                    > > > > took.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > P: Personal experience is, in my mind,
                    > > > > the only thing that proves anything
                    > > > > conclusively and then only for the
                    > > > > person in question. I have no way
                    > > > > of knowing the reality of other people's
                    > > > > experience and so I work to have
                    > > > > respect for the viewpoints of others
                    > > > > and try to find common areas of
                    > > > > understanding by offering my
                    > > > > perspective and learning from the
                    > > > > (hopefully honest and true) experiences
                    > > > > of others.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > ME: Yes! Others can help us to get to
                    > > > > a certain point. But, everything involving
                    > > > > God or Spirit or Whatever requires subjective
                    > > > > (personal) experiences in both the outer
                    > > > > and inner realities of our lives. However,
                    > > > > one needs to be objective and free of
                    > > > > religious opinions in order to find Truth.
                    > > > > Unfortunately, religions (Eckankar) requires
                    > > > > one to become attached to the opinions
                    > > > > of the leader (and those "higher" than
                    > > > > yourself), dogma, laws, rules, guidelines,
                    > > > > belief, faith, hope, promises, scripture,
                    > > > > tradition, objects (buildings), ceremonies,
                    > > > > initiation rank, etc.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > P: So... I am curious whether this group
                    > > > > holds to its statement:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > "We, also, cover the concerns and
                    > > > > critical thinking involving the consciousness
                    > > > > and workings of ALL societies, religions,
                    > > > > and governments and the world as
                    > > > > a whole.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Let's share our opinions, new insights
                    > > > > & perspectives of NOT ONLY Eckankar,
                    > > > > but of other religions, organizations,
                    > > > > governments and their leaders too.
                    > > > > Be respectful to your fellow site members."
                    > > > >
                    > > > > ME: I can't speak for the group. I wrote
                    > > > > that long ago and I do sometimes approach
                    > > > > other topics such as: All Religions Are Scams!
                    > > > > Basically I wrote that because I thought people
                    > > > > could tie-in other subjects to the main focus
                    > > > > which is the Scam of Eckankar which Twitchell
                    > > > > created and Klemp and Company inherited.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > P: Or... if it is ONLY a negative, reactionary
                    > > > > and closed-minded forum for disgruntled
                    > > > > ex-members of Eckankar as also expressed
                    > > > > in the description and mainly by Prometheus_
                    > > > > 973 in the discussion. If so, I have plenty
                    > > > > of other better ways to spend my time.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > ME: Actually some members are Not ex-ECKists.
                    > > > > They are current card carrying ECKists. Some
                    > > > > just don't post... they Read only, but want the
                    > > > > member benefits of email notification and
                    > > > > access to the Files. BTW- We aren't here to
                    > > > > have a discussion on whether Eckankar or
                    > > > > Klemp is being truthful or is a valid religion.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > After all, Klemp cannot actually communicate
                    > > > > with his chelas on the "inner" (as he claims
                    > > > > with his Mahanta powers) or else he would
                    > > > > not need to have a computer generated
                    > > > > initiation list sent to RESAs for their recommendation/
                    > > > > approval.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > And, why the monthly IROs if there
                    > > > > is "Inner communication" with the
                    > > > > All Knowing Master?
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Why aren't there "inner" Seminars, or
                    > > > > "inner Satsang classes" scheduled for
                    > > > > local areas? The same goes for "inner
                    > > > > Book discussions." Where's the proof
                    > > > > in the pudding for all the claims?
                    > > > >
                    > > > > It's all talk and promises and imagination!
                    > > > > Sure, some people will see Rebazar or
                    > > > > other guys before even seeing their pic.
                    > > > > But, this happens in other religions too
                    > > > > with seeing Jesus or Buddha or Krishna
                    > > > > or Kirpal Singh (Paul's real Master), etc.
                    > > > > etc. And, their stories and miracles are
                    > > > > better than the ones Eckists have! Why
                    > > > > is that (Google miracles)? Shouldn't a
                    > > > > card carrying Eckist have even greater
                    > > > > miracles and events happen to them
                    > > > > since they are closer/higher to God?
                    > > > > One would think so, but No!
                    > > > >
                    > > > > And, of course, the Truth will be
                    > > > > a "negative" and hurtful view of Eckankar
                    > > > > as seen by brain-washed ECKists.
                    > > > > I would have seen it the same way
                    > > > > at one time and become angry. You
                    > > > > have to buy into it all for it to "work"
                    > > > > mentally/spiritually. When a person
                    > > > > (Eckist) has put in that much time and
                    > > > > money and effort to make rank. You
                    > > > > (self/ego) is going to defend your choices
                    > > > > even though there are things and people
                    > > > > in the ESC org/church or Satsang Society
                    > > > > that you don't like or want to work with
                    > > > > or for.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > The Klemp's getting angry with that Third
                    > > > > Fill-in Postal Clerk in the 9/200(?) H.I.
                    > > > > Letter showed that something was still wrong.
                    > > > > [It's listed in the Files].
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Plus there's the EMR/EMF thing that started
                    > > > > around 1991 and still bothers Klemp.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > How about the Polarians and Adom and Ede
                    > > > > and the Garden of Eden Myth? This is printed
                    > > > > in the Shariyat!
                    > > > >
                    > > > > How about what is written in the Shariyat 1
                    > > > > about the Virgin Birth of the Mahanta when
                    > > > > Klemp is the 2nd son? How can HK be the
                    > > > > Mahanta? Is ECK Scripture wrong? Is it
                    > > > > negative to mention this?
                    > > > >
                    > > > > There's more of course, but let's face it
                    > > > > an ECKist cannot ask questions after
                    > > > > the 2nd initiation due to maintaining the
                    > > > > Law of Silence (one must go to the inner).
                    > > > > This is a control tactic of religion. One
                    > > > > must learn to Surrender, and Service will
                    > > > > keep you too busy to think critically or
                    > > > > to ask difficult questions. If questions
                    > > > > are asked the H.I. grapevine will notify
                    > > > > the RESA Police and this will cause some
                    > > > > Eckists to be Black Listed on Initiations
                    > > > > for at least three-five years or until
                    > > > > another RESA is chosen.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Maybe you should find something else
                    > > > > to occupy your time. Live life! Let go
                    > > > > and let God!
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Personally, I felt a huge weight (stress)
                    > > > > lifted from my shoulders when I finally
                    > > > > made the decision to quit Eckankar.
                    > > > > It was a wonderful and a spiritual
                    > > > > experience! But, it was very difficult not
                    > > > > looking to or asking the mahanta for help.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I finally looked to my Self and to Spirit.
                    > > > > This is how I became religion free and
                    > > > > Spiritually Free. I am my own master
                    > > > > and I have my own personal religion...
                    > > > > as it should be.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > But, others need experts and holy men
                    > > > > to look up to because it helps them to
                    > > > > believe. Of course, that's what causes the
                    > > > > problems for everyone else. BTW- The
                    > > > > social connections can be made outside
                    > > > > of church and I didn't want to hang out
                    > > > > with too many Eckists anyway.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Or, go to the 2010 EWWS and celebrate the
                    > > > > "Year of the ECK Teacher" again. I hear there
                    > > > > will be another "Acres of Diamonds Meeting"
                    > > > > and an ECK "Arahata Skills Workshop" again.
                    > > > > Oh, and I hear that there will be an "ECK-Vidya
                    > > > > Workshop" even though Eckankar (Klemp)
                    > > > > no longer sells PT's ECK-Vidya book. And,
                    > > > > there's that revisit to the Temple and walking
                    > > > > the Contemplation Trails (again).
                    > > > >
                    > > > > P: Awaiting any new and enlightening information,
                    > > > > Peter
                    > > > >
                    > > > > ME: The info has been given. But, one needs
                    > > > > the ears to hear it and the eyes to see it. You,
                    > > > > still, might not be ready to go it alone with
                    > > > > Soul and with Spirit but that's okay... you're
                    > > > > not alone.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Prometheus
                    > > > >
                    > > > > prometheus_973 wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > It's the "Year of the Teacher" again.
                    > > > > However, words have two meanings.
                    > > > > In Eckankar "Teacher," also, refers to
                    > > > > or means Arahata and this refers to
                    > > > > or means a 2nd Initiate. Aren't ECKists
                    > > > > going backwards? Isn't revisiting the
                    > > > > past each year considered as "Spiritual
                    > > > > Devolution versus Evolution?"
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Klemp and Company are substituting
                    > > > > talk (sharing and stories), social interaction,
                    > > > > feelings from the 4th "Heart" chakra,
                    > > > > Temple tours, retraining classes, HU
                    > > > > chants (with focus on the 6th Chakra)
                    > > > > and entertainment for Spirituality. It's
                    > > > > a Physical, Astral, Causal, and Mental
                    > > > > exercise, especially, when one projects
                    > > > > expectations via the mind's imagination.
                    > > > > BTW-All Chakras (even the highest Crown
                    > > > > Chakra which ECKankar doesn't use)
                    > > > > are seen by them as being Astral Plane.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > So, after 29 years with Klemp in charge
                    > > > > ECKists are encouraged to make an
                    > > > > expensive pilgrimage (during a recession)
                    > > > > to visit the EK Temple and to see and
                    > > > > hear the Klempster in person. This
                    > > > > is odd (or is it? $$$) because one would
                    > > > > think that "the most advanced spiritual
                    > > > > path" on the planet would encourage
                    > > > > "INNER" visitations, meetings, satsangs,
                    > > > > and Worldwide Seminars!
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Why aren't there "Inner" ECK Worldwide
                    > > > > Seminars? Aren't ECKists advanced
                    > > > > enough after all of this time? At least
                    > > > > have an Inner Worldwide for Higher Initiates...
                    > > > > right?!
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Aren't ECKists encouraged to visit the
                    > > > > Physical Plane ECK Temple in Chanhassen
                    > > > > on the "Inner Plane" as well as other
                    > > > > Physical Plane and Inner Plane Temples?
                    > > > > Sure!
                    > > > >
                    > > > > So, why is it necessary to travel to
                    > > > > Minnesota to see and hear Klemp or
                    > > > > to visit the EK Temple there? Do ECKists
                    > > > > need the retraining, or do they need
                    > > > > to reinforce their delusional beliefs that
                    > > > > Eckankar and Klemp are so much more
                    > > > > "advanced" than other religions and
                    > > > > other religious leaders?
                    > > > >
                    > > > > ECKists need to remember one thing:
                    > > > > Keep smiling... it looks good and fools
                    > > > > people!
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Prometheus
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
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