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Re: Rebazar Was NOT a Mahanta in The Tiger's Fang

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  • ctecvie
    Hi Prometheus and all, commenting on the last paragraph of your post: Religions pretend that they can give answers to questions that cannot be answered. We
    Message 1 of 15 , Mar 3, 2010
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      Hi Prometheus and all,

      commenting on the last paragraph of your post:
      Religions pretend that they can give answers to questions that cannot be answered. We need to accept the fact that not everything can be explained. And that's where religions come in and make (our) money!

      Ingrid

      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hello All,
      > Let's summarize Paul's Initiation lies:
      >
      > 1) 2nd Initiation - by Sudar Singh
      > at "about" age 16 (1923-24).
      > Paul states that he and Kay-Dee
      > traveled from "Paris," with Sudar,
      > and stayed in Allahabad, India
      > for one year. [pgs. 40 & 45]
      >
      > 2) 3rd-7th Initiations - were given
      > to Paul at age 39 (1947) while visiting
      > Rebazar, for 6-7 months, in the Hindu
      > Kush Mountains. [pgs 70-71]
      >
      > 3) 8th-12th initiations - were given
      > to Paul by Rebazar. Paul followed RT
      > into the Hindu Kush at age 43 (1951).
      > [pg. 71] Klemp claims that this was
      > Twitchell's "second visit to India" on
      > eckankar.org
      >
      > Therefore, we have Klemp stating that
      > Twitchell lied (early on) at age 27 (1935),
      > in order to get into Who's Who. Also, PT
      > lied as to how many times he traveled
      > to India. Actually, I'm not so sure that
      > Twit ever travelled to India!
      >
      > Now, in these July, 1971, "private tapings"
      > we see that Paul (the Mahanta) is still
      > lying! And, this is just a couple of months
      > before his death on Sept. 17, 1971!
      >
      > What's it all mean? It means that Twit
      > conned people and that Klemp is still
      > conning them. It's all a Big Fat Lie!
      > But, should anyone be surprised when
      > religions lie to the stupid or to trusting,
      > gullible and loving people? Most people
      > want to believe and they want to believe
      > the best in whatever or whomever.
      > Everyone has to figure out what category
      > of delusion they fall-in. Hierarchies
      > are manmade just as religions are.
      >
      > Prometheus
      >
      >
      > prometheus wrote:
      > Hello Etznab and All,
      > "Difficulties Of Becoming The
      > Living ECK Master" are historical
      > transcriptions from private tapings
      > by Twitchell. On page 11 it states:
      >
      > "(In July 1971, Sri Paul Twitchell
      > made private tapings of his struggles
      > before and after his acceptance
      > of the Rod of ECK Power on October
      > 22, 1965... Our thanks to Patti Simpson
      > who presented these tapes to Sri
      > Darwin.)"
      >
      > On pages 45-48, and 70-71,
      > Twitchell tells his story of being
      > initiated by Rebazar, at age 39
      > in 1947, on supposedly, his FIRST
      > trip to India. Except, Paul claims,
      > at age 15, he visited SUDAR in India
      > after leaving Paris. Oops! Another
      > lie! Marman states that this was
      > Paris, Kentucky and Not France
      > as Paul would have us to believe.
      >
      > Let's also recall that Klemp states,
      > on eckankar.org, that at age 27
      > (1935) Paul was "exaggerating"
      > and "twisting facts" (lying) about
      > his "grand achievements" to get
      > into "Who's Who in Kentucky."
      > Thus, there was no trip to Paris
      > (France) nor to India at age 15
      > in 1923!
      >
      > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html
      >
      >
      >
      > Twit states:
      > "In 1947... I stayed there (India) for
      > quite sometime with him (Rebazar),
      > six to seven months being taught
      > and learning the works of ECK...
      > Now, he initiated me there." [pg.70]
      >
      > ME: Yet, Rebazar never mentioned
      > the "Mahanta" once during these
      > months!
      >
      > PT: "I had already been initiated
      > (at age 15, 1923) by Sudar Singh,
      > the same as everybody else, the
      > second initiation." [pgs. 48 & 70]
      >
      > ME: This was, also, an exaggeration
      > (lie) according to Klemp! Therefore,
      > there was No Initiation by Sudar Singh.
      > Actually, there was no Sudar. Kirpal
      > Singh was Twitchell's Master from
      > 1955-65. They even have the same
      > last name! What's this mean? Well,
      > it means that Eckankar was/is based
      > upon lie after lie! It's a fraud and so
      > is Klemp! There's no such thing as
      > a real "Mahanta." Klemp isn't even
      > as believable as the Wizard of Oz!
      >
      > ***
      > BTW- Let's remember that Klemp
      > gives Twitchell's birth year as
      > 1908 in "The Combined Shariyat,
      > Books One and Two" on the Copyright
      > Page.
      >
      > The Oct. 22 birthday is given in
      > the 1998 EK Lexicon, on page 61,
      > "ECK Spiritual New Year." Funny
      > how PT's birthday corresponds
      > to the Spiritual New Year and the
      > Passing of the Rod of ECK Power!
      > ***
      >
      > PT: "And then I got the Third and
      > Fourth, I went up through About
      > the Seventh at this particular time
      > (pg. 71)."
      >
      > ME: How does one go up to
      > "About" the Seventh Initiation?"
      > Wouldn't a person remember
      > what initiation it was if it were
      > true? This is just more proof
      > that Twit was lying once again!
      >
      > PT: "... later [1951], but not
      > on this trip, I followed him up
      > there (the Hindu Kush Mountains)
      > and I got the finish (12th) of
      > my initiations (pg. 71)."
      >
      > Apparently Rebazar never mentioned
      > the Mahanta, from 1951-1967, while
      > Twitchell was a 12th initiate and ECK
      > Master! I know this because Twitchell
      > never mentions the "Mahanta" in the
      > 1967 "The Tiger's Fang!" However, upon
      > closer inspection, the "Mahanta" was
      > never mentioned (by Twit) prior to
      > Jan. 1, 1969.
      >
      > Now, the ekplanation for this 16-18
      > year gap of knowledge (not knowing
      > about the Mahanta) is quite simple
      > right? I just can't figure out what it
      > would be! Insanity, denial, stupidity?
      >
      > Prometheus
      >
      >
      > etznab wrote:
      >
      > I agree it is most peculiar that "Mahanta" didn't
      > appear in The Tiger's Fang published 1967.
      >
      > There were other early books that didn't mention
      > it either, if I remember correctly.
      >
      >
      > prometheus wrote:
      >
      > Hello Etznab and All,
      > I started another thread for this discussion.
      > Paul never mentions the "Mahanta" in the
      > 1967 Copyright of The Tiger's Fang. It wasn't
      > until two years later (1969) that PT dreamed
      > up the Mahanta title and all of the "Puffery"
      > that goes with it. PT merely describes Rebazar
      > Tarzs, in Tiger's Fang, as a "Spiritual Traveler"
      > and "Godman." Not until Twit created the
      > Mahanta title for himself did Rebazar become
      > one too! 20/20 hindsight, with rewrites,
      > editing and omissions is how the Eckankar
      > fraud, under Klemp's reign, continues to
      > delude its followers.
      >
      > Really, one would think that when the fictitious
      > Rebazar visited Twitchell and took him on all
      > of those Inner Plane journeys and taught him
      > all of those secret teachings and when he made
      > PT the 971st LEM in 1965 that he would have
      > mentioned the "Mahanta" Consciousness at
      > one time or another! However, it wasn't for
      > Four More Years that this information (if we
      > believe the lie) becomes known to Twitchell!
      > Hmmmmmm. Now why didn't Rebz mention
      > the Mahanta Con to Twit sooner? Obviously
      > it just took Twit this amount of time, and with
      > the right circumstances, for him to figure out
      > the Mahanta Con. It is a convenient lie. Or,
      > are we being too logical I wonder? Isn't there
      > some magical ekplanation for this 4 year
      > gap, 1965-1969?
      >
      > Prometheus
      >
      > Hello Etznab,
      > It's kind of a moot point as to "when"
      > Twitchell claims to have received the
      > Fake Rod of ECK Power... it was whenever
      > he claimed (like Oct. 22,1965). Liars
      > have trouble remembering the details
      > of their lies. That's why Twit made
      > the date of the LEM lie correspond to
      > his birthday, Oct. 22. And, he officially
      > created or started the "outer church"
      > on this date. This way he'd remember
      > it! What's even funnier, and more remarkable,
      > is Paul wrote his dogma to show that
      > every LEM receives the ROD, throughout
      > history, on this date... his birthday!
      >
      > PT did promote "Flute" via installments
      > (circa 1966) where he, also, used other,
      > REAL, peoples' names and later substituted
      > these with the names of fake "EK Masters."
      > The book was Copyrighted in 1969, but
      > didn't get into print until 1970 probably
      > due to reediting. The Copyright of 1969,
      > and the First Printing date of 1970 are
      > given in my 6th, 1979 Printing of The Flute
      > of God.
      >
      > As for his lie about the Mahanta Initiation?
      > This idea had to occur just prior to Jan. 1,
      > 1969 since Twitchell didn't mention the
      > name/word "Mahanta" in the Dec. 1, 1968
      > Monthly Issue of The Wisdom Notes. Nor
      > did PT mention the "Mahanta" in any other
      > publication or Monthly Wisdom Note prior
      > to Jan. 1, 1969. This is just using the facts,
      > as well as, logic and common sense. Plus,
      > even Klemp states that Twitchell was a lying
      > in 1935, at age 27, when he was trying to
      > get into Who's Who in Kentucky. Therefore,
      > a past track record of lying has been verified
      > by Klemp.
      >
      > The Tiger's Fang was Copyrighted in 1967,
      > but let's remember that Klemp states that
      > Kirpal Singh returned the manuscript to
      > Paul circa June, 1966. Since "Mahanta" wasn't
      > mentioned in 1968 we can only assume
      > that it was not mentioned in 1967. However,
      > there was a reediting of this book, by Klemp,
      > in 1988 for a Second Printing. This is where
      > "Mahanta" had to be inserted... by Klemp!
      >
      > If one has paid attention they will see that
      > Klemp has not only given new covers to
      > Paul's older works, but has done reediting
      > as well. Just look at the differences and
      > changes that Klemp made to Paul's Eckankar
      > Dictionary! Compare HK's 1998 EK Lexicon
      > to Paul's Dictionary. Now compare Klemp's
      > current Lexicon to his 1998 Lexicon. It's
      > sad that Klemp has been reediting Twitchell's
      > works, but he can do this because Gail sold
      > the rights to Paul's works to Eckankar.
      >
      > Even though Gail got her 30 pieces of silver,
      > ($500,000) there are many H.I.s, Marman
      > included, that are still her friend. Then again,
      > these ECK H.I.s are the friend of Patti as well.
      > How's Klemp's editing and discontinuation
      > of PT's writings working out for these old -timers?
      >
      > Prometheus
      >
      > etznab wrote:
      >
      > hat was interesting what you said about
      > "Mahanta".
      >
      > Just the other day I was trying to remember
      > exactly where Paul Twitchell describes HIS
      > experience receiving the "Rod of Eck Power"
      > and becoming the Mahanta, the Living Eck
      > Master October 22nd, 1965. (was it?)
      >
      > Was that the date?
      >
      > I assumed the writing about it would have to
      > be subsequent to October 1965. So I looked
      > for books after that date.
      >
      > The Flute of God came out in installments
      > in the Orion magazine in 1966 - and Intro.
      > to Eckankar seems to be 1966, too (I don't
      > have that last book.) The Tiger's Fang came
      > out in 1967, but was reportedly written about
      > 1957 according to Doug and 1956 according
      > to Darwin Gross, I think.
      >
      > 1968 is when the Wisdom Notes come out
      > (January). MSIA developed (The first seminar
      > took place on May 4, 1968). The July W.N.
      > mentions "ECK Master", I believe, and then
      > various other forms of "Master".
      >
      > All About ECK, The Key to Eckankar and
      > In My Soul I Am Free came out in 1968.
      >
      > It was the January 1969 W.N. that mentioned
      > "Mahanta", if I remember correctly. Stranger
      > By The River, The Flute of God and Eckankar,
      > The Key to Secret Worlds came out in 1969,
      > I believe. (That would be the edited version of
      > The Flute of God).
      >
      > The Shariyats came out (or being "translated")
      > from the 1970s and I believe Paul suggested
      > he was going to explain the "Mahanta" there in
      > one of them, at least. Or talk more about the
      > "Mahanta, the Living Eck Master".
      >
      > The February 1970 Wisdom Note mentions
      > "MAHANTA - the living ECK Master" I believe.
      >
      > OK. So where in all these books since 1965
      > does Paul Twitchell write about his receiving
      > of the "R.O.E.P." from Rebazar Tarzs? Does
      > anybody remember? Maybe he talked about
      > it at a seminar and it's on tape?
      >
      > I'd like to find out when that experience was
      > mentioned and what was said about it to get
      > an idea about what "history" might exist.
      >
      > Don't mean to change the thread subject, but
      > I thought this query could be relevant to the
      > "Mahanta" topic.
      >
      > Etznab
      >
      > prometheus wrote:
      >
      > Hello All,
      > I just thought I'd point out a few thing that
      > Ford overlooked. Here's what Ford said:
      >
      > Ford: "How the Myth of the Mahanta was Fabricated
      >
      > In spite of what is now known about Twitchell's
      > condition of mythomania, Klemp continues to
      > delude himself into believing that Twitchell's
      > 1965 creation of the Mahanta myth is actually
      > true."
      >
      > ME: Actually, Twitchell created the Mahanta
      > Myth around January 1969 and not in 1965.
      > In "Paul Twitchell Presents, The Wisdom Notes,
      > January 1968-October 1971" one can clearly
      > see that Twitchell mentions the "Mahanta" for
      > the very first time in this Jan. 1, 1969 Monthly
      > "The Wisdom Notes."
      >
      > Ford: "Klemp seems oblivious to the fact that
      > Twitchell stole even the name from another
      > spiritual path. When it made its early appearance
      > in his book The Flute of God (pp. 46, 55), it
      > was merely a synonym for spirit and a state
      > of consciousness like "love" or any other thought
      > form This was easy to accept, for most people
      > believe in some universal force whether called
      > "spirit" or by some other name. Twitchell later
      > associated the word "Mahanta" with the "man"
      > and added it to his exalted title. With this verbalfusion
      > of two words, he was able to transform himself
      > into spirit itself ¾since spirit and Mahanta now
      > meant the same thing. He then diffused the word
      > "Mahanta" throughout the Eckankar teachings,
      > and reinforced the Mahanta/Spirit connection
      > by making it part of "every word, thought and
      > action" of his followers."
      >
      > ME: The "Mahanta" (Consciousness) can, also,
      > be found on page 39, as well as, pages 46 & 55
      > in Twitchell's 1969 "The Flute of God." The term
      > Mahanta was used only three times in this 1969
      > Copyright. And, the 1st printing of this book was
      > in 1970. This is more proof that Twitchell didn't
      > create this term/position for himself until 1969.
      >
      > BTW-In mid to late 1968 Twitchell felt threatened
      > by two internal conflicts. One was when 2nd
      > Initiate John-Rogers (Hinkle) left Eckankar and
      > used PT's discourses to start his own religion/path
      > (MSIA). Also, after this, Twitchell added the caution
      > that sharing one's discourses was not permitted and
      > was a violation of spiritual law among other threats.
      >
      > The second thing was that Paul began to renege
      > on his 5 year plan to step down as LEM since
      > Eckankar, now, began to do well and make money.
      > This caused many of his H.I.s (in-line to take over)
      > to become very upset. Thus, Paul had to come
      > up with a plan and a title to make himself beyond
      > reproach and regain control as the highest of
      > all Masters. Therefore, Twit created the Mahanta
      > title and definition.
      >
      > Plus, PT added two more initiations levels (14)
      > for himself. However, the "Worlds of ECK" Chart,
      > on page 232, of Klemp's 1998 ECK Lexicon shows
      > 12 Planes and Initiation Levels. The highest (12th)
      > states: "SUGMAD (God) Ocean of Love and Mercy."
      > Apparently neither Twitchell or Klemp felt the
      > need to "correct" the chart. Interesting, too, that
      > on page 9 of Klemp's 1998 ECK Lexicon the definition
      > for "ANAMI LOK" states that this is "the world
      > of the Supreme Being, the Sugmad... the word
      > is HU; the TENTH Plane; the Nameless Plane."
      > Twitchell always had trouble keeping his lies
      > straight!
      >
      > Originally, the term Mahanta meant "Monastery
      > Head." This term can be found in "The Holy Science"
      > by Swami Sri Yukteswar (1855-1936), Seventh
      > Edition 1972, Third Printing 1977, in the Introduction,
      > page vi, footnoted at the bottom. Sri Yukteswar
      > was Sri Yogananda's master. BTW- This is an
      > interesting book and I'm fairly certain that Twitchell
      > had speed read and "compiled" it too! Sri Yukteswar
      > talks about Allahabad, the Kumbha Mela, the
      > Yugas, etc., and this is a location (Allahabad)
      > that Twitchell claims that Sudar (Kirpal) Singh,
      > 970th LEM, was from.
      >
      > I do agree with what Ford has stated. I just
      > wanted to present more details than what
      > were first gathered. It's a big job digging
      > for and sorting out facts (the Truth) when
      > Twit was such a liar and Klemp is covering
      > up for him, as well as, creating his own
      > newer version of Eckankar with more lies
      > and distortions.
      >
      > There's one more thing that I wanted to
      > mention. Isn't it interesting about Beliefs.
      > Christians believe that Jesus will come
      > again in their/this lifetime, and ECKists
      > believe that they will achieve Spiritual
      > Freedom via God-Realization in this
      > lifetime. Religion is all about mass delusion!
      >
      > Okay, one more thing. Most ECKists
      > will deny this, but they share the same
      > Garden of Eden Myth with Christians!
      > Twitchell just did his usual letter/word
      > switch and made Adam into Adom and
      > Eve into Ede. Just look at the definition
      > for "Polarians" in Klemp's 1998 ECK
      > Lexicon. Yet, I've seen on HU Chat
      > where ECKists have made fun of the
      > Christian Garden of Eden Myth! It
      > would seem that they are laughing
      > at themselves and don't realize it!
      > How clueless! Then again, an inability
      > to do critical thinking and Not being
      > able to connect-the-dots is why they're
      > still ECKists.
      >
      > Prometheus
      >
    • prometheus_973
      Hi Ingrid and All, Yes, all religions take our money in one way or another. All of us pay for their Holy Wars that they wage upon the rest of us. Their members
      Message 2 of 15 , Mar 4, 2010
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        Hi Ingrid and All,
        Yes, all religions take our money
        in one way or another. All of us pay
        for their Holy Wars that they wage
        upon the rest of us. Their members
        also pay for future promises and to
        feel good and all puffed-up, now,
        while looking down their noses at
        all of the other poor lost Souls. It's
        interesting that so many of them
        believe in the "end-of-days" propaganda/
        dogma including Eckankar (Kali Yuga)!
        Plus, there's the Garden of Eden Myth
        that Eckankar, also, subscribes to
        (see "Polarians" pg. 162, 1998 ECK Lexicon).

        Prometheus

        ctecvie wrote:

        Hi Prometheus and all,

        commenting on the last paragraph of your post:
        Religions pretend that they can give answers to
        questions that cannot be answered. We need to
        accept the fact that not everything can be explained.
        And that's where religions come in and make (our)
        money!

        Ingrid


        prometheus wrote:
        >
        > Hello All,
        > Let's summarize Paul's Initiation lies:
        >
        > 1) 2nd Initiation - by Sudar Singh
        > at "about" age 16 (1923-24).
        > Paul states that he and Kay-Dee
        > traveled from "Paris," with Sudar,
        > and stayed in Allahabad, India
        > for one year. [pgs. 40 & 45]
        >
        > 2) 3rd-7th Initiations - were given
        > to Paul at age 39 (1947) while visiting
        > Rebazar, for 6-7 months, in the Hindu
        > Kush Mountains. [pgs 70-71]
        >
        > 3) 8th-12th initiations - were given
        > to Paul by Rebazar. Paul followed RT
        > into the Hindu Kush at age 43 (1951).
        > [pg. 71] Klemp claims that this was
        > Twitchell's "second visit to India" on
        > eckankar.org
        >
        > Therefore, we have Klemp stating that
        > Twitchell lied (early on) at age 27 (1935),
        > in order to get into Who's Who. Also, PT
        > lied as to how many times he traveled
        > to India. Actually, I'm not so sure that
        > Twit ever travelled to India!
        >
        > Now, in these July, 1971, "private tapings"
        > we see that Paul (the Mahanta) is still
        > lying! And, this is just a couple of months
        > before his death on Sept. 17, 1971!
        >
        > What's it all mean? It means that Twit
        > conned people and that Klemp is still
        > conning them. It's all a Big Fat Lie!
        > But, should anyone be surprised when
        > religions lie to the stupid or to trusting,
        > gullible and loving people? Most people
        > want to believe and they want to believe
        > the best in whatever or whomever.
        > Everyone has to figure out what category
        > of delusion they fall-in. Hierarchies
        > are manmade just as religions are.
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
        >
        > prometheus wrote:
        > Hello Etznab and All,
        > "Difficulties Of Becoming The
        > Living ECK Master" are historical
        > transcriptions from private tapings
        > by Twitchell. On page 11 it states:
        >
        > "(In July 1971, Sri Paul Twitchell
        > made private tapings of his struggles
        > before and after his acceptance
        > of the Rod of ECK Power on October
        > 22, 1965... Our thanks to Patti Simpson
        > who presented these tapes to Sri
        > Darwin.)"
        >
        > On pages 45-48, and 70-71,
        > Twitchell tells his story of being
        > initiated by Rebazar, at age 39
        > in 1947, on supposedly, his FIRST
        > trip to India. Except, Paul claims,
        > at age 15, he visited SUDAR in India
        > after leaving Paris. Oops! Another
        > lie! Marman states that this was
        > Paris, Kentucky and Not France
        > as Paul would have us to believe.
        >
        > Let's also recall that Klemp states,
        > on eckankar.org, that at age 27
        > (1935) Paul was "exaggerating"
        > and "twisting facts" (lying) about
        > his "grand achievements" to get
        > into "Who's Who in Kentucky."
        > Thus, there was no trip to Paris
        > (France) nor to India at age 15
        > in 1923!
        >
        http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html
        >
        >
        >
        > Twit states:
        > "In 1947... I stayed there (India) for
        > quite sometime with him (Rebazar),
        > six to seven months being taught
        > and learning the works of ECK...
        > Now, he initiated me there." [pg.70]
        >
        > ME: Yet, Rebazar never mentioned
        > the "Mahanta" once during these
        > months!
        >
        > PT: "I had already been initiated
        > (at age 15, 1923) by Sudar Singh,
        > the same as everybody else, the
        > second initiation." [pgs. 48 & 70]
        >
        > ME: This was, also, an exaggeration
        > (lie) according to Klemp! Therefore,
        > there was No Initiation by Sudar Singh.
        > Actually, there was no Sudar. Kirpal
        > Singh was Twitchell's Master from
        > 1955-65. They even have the same
        > last name! What's this mean? Well,
        > it means that Eckankar was/is based
        > upon lie after lie! It's a fraud and so
        > is Klemp! There's no such thing as
        > a real "Mahanta." Klemp isn't even
        > as believable as the Wizard of Oz!
        >
        > ***
        > BTW- Let's remember that Klemp
        > gives Twitchell's birth year as
        > 1908 in "The Combined Shariyat,
        > Books One and Two" on the Copyright
        > Page.
        >
        > The Oct. 22 birthday is given in
        > the 1998 EK Lexicon, on page 61,
        > "ECK Spiritual New Year." Funny
        > how PT's birthday corresponds
        > to the Spiritual New Year and the
        > Passing of the Rod of ECK Power!
        > ***
        >
        > PT: "And then I got the Third and
        > Fourth, I went up through About
        > the Seventh at this particular time
        > (pg. 71)."
        >
        > ME: How does one go up to
        > "About" the Seventh Initiation?"
        > Wouldn't a person remember
        > what initiation it was if it were
        > true? This is just more proof
        > that Twit was lying once again!
        >
        > PT: "... later [1951], but not
        > on this trip, I followed him up
        > there (the Hindu Kush Mountains)
        > and I got the finish (12th) of
        > my initiations (pg. 71)."
        >
        > Apparently Rebazar never mentioned
        > the Mahanta, from 1951-1967, while
        > Twitchell was a 12th initiate and ECK
        > Master! I know this because Twitchell
        > never mentions the "Mahanta" in the
        > 1967 "The Tiger's Fang!" However, upon
        > closer inspection, the "Mahanta" was
        > never mentioned (by Twit) prior to
        > Jan. 1, 1969.
        >
        > Now, the ekplanation for this 16-18
        > year gap of knowledge (not knowing
        > about the Mahanta) is quite simple
        > right? I just can't figure out what it
        > would be! Insanity, denial, stupidity?
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
        >
        > etznab wrote:
        >
        > I agree it is most peculiar that "Mahanta" didn't
        > appear in The Tiger's Fang published 1967.
        >
        > There were other early books that didn't mention
        > it either, if I remember correctly.
        >
        >
        > prometheus wrote:
        >
        > Hello Etznab and All,
        > I started another thread for this discussion.
        > Paul never mentions the "Mahanta" in the
        > 1967 Copyright of The Tiger's Fang. It wasn't
        > until two years later (1969) that PT dreamed
        > up the Mahanta title and all of the "Puffery"
        > that goes with it. PT merely describes Rebazar
        > Tarzs, in Tiger's Fang, as a "Spiritual Traveler"
        > and "Godman." Not until Twit created the
        > Mahanta title for himself did Rebazar become
        > one too! 20/20 hindsight, with rewrites,
        > editing and omissions is how the Eckankar
        > fraud, under Klemp's reign, continues to
        > delude its followers.
        >
        > Really, one would think that when the fictitious
        > Rebazar visited Twitchell and took him on all
        > of those Inner Plane journeys and taught him
        > all of those secret teachings and when he made
        > PT the 971st LEM in 1965 that he would have
        > mentioned the "Mahanta" Consciousness at
        > one time or another! However, it wasn't for
        > Four More Years that this information (if we
        > believe the lie) becomes known to Twitchell!
        > Hmmmmmm. Now why didn't Rebz mention
        > the Mahanta Con to Twit sooner? Obviously
        > it just took Twit this amount of time, and with
        > the right circumstances, for him to figure out
        > the Mahanta Con. It is a convenient lie. Or,
        > are we being too logical I wonder? Isn't there
        > some magical ekplanation for this 4 year
        > gap, 1965-1969?
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
        > Hello Etznab,
        > It's kind of a moot point as to "when"
        > Twitchell claims to have received the
        > Fake Rod of ECK Power... it was whenever
        > he claimed (like Oct. 22,1965). Liars
        > have trouble remembering the details
        > of their lies. That's why Twit made
        > the date of the LEM lie correspond to
        > his birthday, Oct. 22. And, he officially
        > created or started the "outer church"
        > on this date. This way he'd remember
        > it! What's even funnier, and more remarkable,
        > is Paul wrote his dogma to show that
        > every LEM receives the ROD, throughout
        > history, on this date... his birthday!
        >
        > PT did promote "Flute" via installments
        > (circa 1966) where he, also, used other,
        > REAL, peoples' names and later substituted
        > these with the names of fake "EK Masters."
        > The book was Copyrighted in 1969, but
        > didn't get into print until 1970 probably
        > due to reediting. The Copyright of 1969,
        > and the First Printing date of 1970 are
        > given in my 6th, 1979 Printing of The Flute
        > of God.
        >
        > As for his lie about the Mahanta Initiation?
        > This idea had to occur just prior to Jan. 1,
        > 1969 since Twitchell didn't mention the
        > name/word "Mahanta" in the Dec. 1, 1968
        > Monthly Issue of The Wisdom Notes. Nor
        > did PT mention the "Mahanta" in any other
        > publication or Monthly Wisdom Note prior
        > to Jan. 1, 1969. This is just using the facts,
        > as well as, logic and common sense. Plus,
        > even Klemp states that Twitchell was a lying
        > in 1935, at age 27, when he was trying to
        > get into Who's Who in Kentucky. Therefore,
        > a past track record of lying has been verified
        > by Klemp.
        >
        > The Tiger's Fang was Copyrighted in 1967,
        > but let's remember that Klemp states that
        > Kirpal Singh returned the manuscript to
        > Paul circa June, 1966. Since "Mahanta" wasn't
        > mentioned in 1968 we can only assume
        > that it was not mentioned in 1967. However,
        > there was a reediting of this book, by Klemp,
        > in 1988 for a Second Printing. This is where
        > "Mahanta" had to be inserted... by Klemp!
        >
        > If one has paid attention they will see that
        > Klemp has not only given new covers to
        > Paul's older works, but has done reediting
        > as well. Just look at the differences and
        > changes that Klemp made to Paul's Eckankar
        > Dictionary! Compare HK's 1998 EK Lexicon
        > to Paul's Dictionary. Now compare Klemp's
        > current Lexicon to his 1998 Lexicon. It's
        > sad that Klemp has been reediting Twitchell's
        > works, but he can do this because Gail sold
        > the rights to Paul's works to Eckankar.
        >
        > Even though Gail got her 30 pieces of silver,
        > ($500,000) there are many H.I.s, Marman
        > included, that are still her friend. Then again,
        > these ECK H.I.s are the friend of Patti as well.
        > How's Klemp's editing and discontinuation
        > of PT's writings working out for these old -timers?
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
        > etznab wrote:
        >
        > hat was interesting what you said about
        > "Mahanta".
        >
        > Just the other day I was trying to remember
        > exactly where Paul Twitchell describes HIS
        > experience receiving the "Rod of Eck Power"
        > and becoming the Mahanta, the Living Eck
        > Master October 22nd, 1965. (was it?)
        >
        > Was that the date?
        >
        > I assumed the writing about it would have to
        > be subsequent to October 1965. So I looked
        > for books after that date.
        >
        > The Flute of God came out in installments
        > in the Orion magazine in 1966 - and Intro.
        > to Eckankar seems to be 1966, too (I don't
        > have that last book.) The Tiger's Fang came
        > out in 1967, but was reportedly written about
        > 1957 according to Doug and 1956 according
        > to Darwin Gross, I think.
        >
        > 1968 is when the Wisdom Notes come out
        > (January). MSIA developed (The first seminar
        > took place on May 4, 1968). The July W.N.
        > mentions "ECK Master", I believe, and then
        > various other forms of "Master".
        >
        > All About ECK, The Key to Eckankar and
        > In My Soul I Am Free came out in 1968.
        >
        > It was the January 1969 W.N. that mentioned
        > "Mahanta", if I remember correctly. Stranger
        > By The River, The Flute of God and Eckankar,
        > The Key to Secret Worlds came out in 1969,
        > I believe. (That would be the edited version of
        > The Flute of God).
        >
        > The Shariyats came out (or being "translated")
        > from the 1970s and I believe Paul suggested
        > he was going to explain the "Mahanta" there in
        > one of them, at least. Or talk more about the
        > "Mahanta, the Living Eck Master".
        >
        > The February 1970 Wisdom Note mentions
        > "MAHANTA - the living ECK Master" I believe.
        >
        > OK. So where in all these books since 1965
        > does Paul Twitchell write about his receiving
        > of the "R.O.E.P." from Rebazar Tarzs? Does
        > anybody remember? Maybe he talked about
        > it at a seminar and it's on tape?
        >
        > I'd like to find out when that experience was
        > mentioned and what was said about it to get
        > an idea about what "history" might exist.
        >
        > Don't mean to change the thread subject, but
        > I thought this query could be relevant to the
        > "Mahanta" topic.
        >
        > Etznab
        >
        > prometheus wrote:
        >
        > Hello All,
        > I just thought I'd point out a few thing that
        > Ford overlooked. Here's what Ford said:
        >
        > Ford: "How the Myth of the Mahanta was Fabricated
        >
        > In spite of what is now known about Twitchell's
        > condition of mythomania, Klemp continues to
        > delude himself into believing that Twitchell's
        > 1965 creation of the Mahanta myth is actually
        > true."
        >
        > ME: Actually, Twitchell created the Mahanta
        > Myth around January 1969 and not in 1965.
        > In "Paul Twitchell Presents, The Wisdom Notes,
        > January 1968-October 1971" one can clearly
        > see that Twitchell mentions the "Mahanta" for
        > the very first time in this Jan. 1, 1969 Monthly
        > "The Wisdom Notes."
        >
        > Ford: "Klemp seems oblivious to the fact that
        > Twitchell stole even the name from another
        > spiritual path. When it made its early appearance
        > in his book The Flute of God (pp. 46, 55), it
        > was merely a synonym for spirit and a state
        > of consciousness like "love" or any other thought
        > form This was easy to accept, for most people
        > believe in some universal force whether called
        > "spirit" or by some other name. Twitchell later
        > associated the word "Mahanta" with the "man"
        > and added it to his exalted title. With this verbalfusion
        > of two words, he was able to transform himself
        > into spirit itself ¾since spirit and Mahanta now
        > meant the same thing. He then diffused the word
        > "Mahanta" throughout the Eckankar teachings,
        > and reinforced the Mahanta/Spirit connection
        > by making it part of "every word, thought and
        > action" of his followers."
        >
        > ME: The "Mahanta" (Consciousness) can, also,
        > be found on page 39, as well as, pages 46 & 55
        > in Twitchell's 1969 "The Flute of God." The term
        > Mahanta was used only three times in this 1969
        > Copyright. And, the 1st printing of this book was
        > in 1970. This is more proof that Twitchell didn't
        > create this term/position for himself until 1969.
        >
        > BTW-In mid to late 1968 Twitchell felt threatened
        > by two internal conflicts. One was when 2nd
        > Initiate John-Rogers (Hinkle) left Eckankar and
        > used PT's discourses to start his own religion/path
        > (MSIA). Also, after this, Twitchell added the caution
        > that sharing one's discourses was not permitted and
        > was a violation of spiritual law among other threats.
        >
        > The second thing was that Paul began to renege
        > on his 5 year plan to step down as LEM since
        > Eckankar, now, began to do well and make money.
        > This caused many of his H.I.s (in-line to take over)
        > to become very upset. Thus, Paul had to come
        > up with a plan and a title to make himself beyond
        > reproach and regain control as the highest of
        > all Masters. Therefore, Twit created the Mahanta
        > title and definition.
        >
        > Plus, PT added two more initiations levels (14)
        > for himself. However, the "Worlds of ECK" Chart,
        > on page 232, of Klemp's 1998 ECK Lexicon shows
        > 12 Planes and Initiation Levels. The highest (12th)
        > states: "SUGMAD (God) Ocean of Love and Mercy."
        > Apparently neither Twitchell or Klemp felt the
        > need to "correct" the chart. Interesting, too, that
        > on page 9 of Klemp's 1998 ECK Lexicon the definition
        > for "ANAMI LOK" states that this is "the world
        > of the Supreme Being, the Sugmad... the word
        > is HU; the TENTH Plane; the Nameless Plane."
        > Twitchell always had trouble keeping his lies
        > straight!
        >
        > Originally, the term Mahanta meant "Monastery
        > Head." This term can be found in "The Holy Science"
        > by Swami Sri Yukteswar (1855-1936), Seventh
        > Edition 1972, Third Printing 1977, in the Introduction,
        > page vi, footnoted at the bottom. Sri Yukteswar
        > was Sri Yogananda's master. BTW- This is an
        > interesting book and I'm fairly certain that Twitchell
        > had speed read and "compiled" it too! Sri Yukteswar
        > talks about Allahabad, the Kumbha Mela, the
        > Yugas, etc., and this is a location (Allahabad)
        > that Twitchell claims that Sudar (Kirpal) Singh,
        > 970th LEM, was from.
        >
        > I do agree with what Ford has stated. I just
        > wanted to present more details than what
        > were first gathered. It's a big job digging
        > for and sorting out facts (the Truth) when
        > Twit was such a liar and Klemp is covering
        > up for him, as well as, creating his own
        > newer version of Eckankar with more lies
        > and distortions.
        >
        > There's one more thing that I wanted to
        > mention. Isn't it interesting about Beliefs.
        > Christians believe that Jesus will come
        > again in their/this lifetime, and ECKists
        > believe that they will achieve Spiritual
        > Freedom via God-Realization in this
        > lifetime. Religion is all about mass delusion!
        >
        > Okay, one more thing. Most ECKists
        > will deny this, but they share the same
        > Garden of Eden Myth with Christians!
        > Twitchell just did his usual letter/word
        > switch and made Adam into Adom and
        > Eve into Ede. Just look at the definition
        > for "Polarians" in Klemp's 1998 ECK
        > Lexicon. Yet, I've seen on HU Chat
        > where ECKists have made fun of the
        > Christian Garden of Eden Myth! It
        > would seem that they are laughing
        > at themselves and don't realize it!
        > How clueless! Then again, an inability
        > to do critical thinking and Not being
        > able to connect-the-dots is why they're
        > still ECKists.
        >
        > Prometheus
      • ctecvie
        Hi Prometheus, yes the feel good factor is another important issue why people need religions. Isn t it just great to feel like the ones who will be saved
        Message 3 of 15 , Mar 5, 2010
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          Hi Prometheus,

          yes the "feel good" factor is another important issue why people need religions. Isn't it just great to feel like the ones who will be "saved" because they belong to the "right" group of people and to just know it all? It's really so good to look down on the poor devils who haven't figured it out for themselves ... :-D

          And the karma thingie in eckankar is the same thing as the original sin of the Catholics - if the ekkies opened their eyes, they could see that very easily! LOL!

          Ingrid

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Ingrid and All,
          > Yes, all religions take our money
          > in one way or another. All of us pay
          > for their Holy Wars that they wage
          > upon the rest of us. Their members
          > also pay for future promises and to
          > feel good and all puffed-up, now,
          > while looking down their noses at
          > all of the other poor lost Souls. It's
          > interesting that so many of them
          > believe in the "end-of-days" propaganda/
          > dogma including Eckankar (Kali Yuga)!
          > Plus, there's the Garden of Eden Myth
          > that Eckankar, also, subscribes to
          > (see "Polarians" pg. 162, 1998 ECK Lexicon).
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
          > ctecvie wrote:
          >
          > Hi Prometheus and all,
          >
          > commenting on the last paragraph of your post:
          > Religions pretend that they can give answers to
          > questions that cannot be answered. We need to
          > accept the fact that not everything can be explained.
          > And that's where religions come in and make (our)
          > money!
          >
          > Ingrid
          >
          >
          > prometheus wrote:
          > >
          > > Hello All,
          > > Let's summarize Paul's Initiation lies:
          > >
          > > 1) 2nd Initiation - by Sudar Singh
          > > at "about" age 16 (1923-24).
          > > Paul states that he and Kay-Dee
          > > traveled from "Paris," with Sudar,
          > > and stayed in Allahabad, India
          > > for one year. [pgs. 40 & 45]
          > >
          > > 2) 3rd-7th Initiations - were given
          > > to Paul at age 39 (1947) while visiting
          > > Rebazar, for 6-7 months, in the Hindu
          > > Kush Mountains. [pgs 70-71]
          > >
          > > 3) 8th-12th initiations - were given
          > > to Paul by Rebazar. Paul followed RT
          > > into the Hindu Kush at age 43 (1951).
          > > [pg. 71] Klemp claims that this was
          > > Twitchell's "second visit to India" on
          > > eckankar.org
          > >
          > > Therefore, we have Klemp stating that
          > > Twitchell lied (early on) at age 27 (1935),
          > > in order to get into Who's Who. Also, PT
          > > lied as to how many times he traveled
          > > to India. Actually, I'm not so sure that
          > > Twit ever travelled to India!
          > >
          > > Now, in these July, 1971, "private tapings"
          > > we see that Paul (the Mahanta) is still
          > > lying! And, this is just a couple of months
          > > before his death on Sept. 17, 1971!
          > >
          > > What's it all mean? It means that Twit
          > > conned people and that Klemp is still
          > > conning them. It's all a Big Fat Lie!
          > > But, should anyone be surprised when
          > > religions lie to the stupid or to trusting,
          > > gullible and loving people? Most people
          > > want to believe and they want to believe
          > > the best in whatever or whomever.
          > > Everyone has to figure out what category
          > > of delusion they fall-in. Hierarchies
          > > are manmade just as religions are.
          > >
          > > Prometheus
          > >
          > >
          > > prometheus wrote:
          > > Hello Etznab and All,
          > > "Difficulties Of Becoming The
          > > Living ECK Master" are historical
          > > transcriptions from private tapings
          > > by Twitchell. On page 11 it states:
          > >
          > > "(In July 1971, Sri Paul Twitchell
          > > made private tapings of his struggles
          > > before and after his acceptance
          > > of the Rod of ECK Power on October
          > > 22, 1965... Our thanks to Patti Simpson
          > > who presented these tapes to Sri
          > > Darwin.)"
          > >
          > > On pages 45-48, and 70-71,
          > > Twitchell tells his story of being
          > > initiated by Rebazar, at age 39
          > > in 1947, on supposedly, his FIRST
          > > trip to India. Except, Paul claims,
          > > at age 15, he visited SUDAR in India
          > > after leaving Paris. Oops! Another
          > > lie! Marman states that this was
          > > Paris, Kentucky and Not France
          > > as Paul would have us to believe.
          > >
          > > Let's also recall that Klemp states,
          > > on eckankar.org, that at age 27
          > > (1935) Paul was "exaggerating"
          > > and "twisting facts" (lying) about
          > > his "grand achievements" to get
          > > into "Who's Who in Kentucky."
          > > Thus, there was no trip to Paris
          > > (France) nor to India at age 15
          > > in 1923!
          > >
          > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Twit states:
          > > "In 1947... I stayed there (India) for
          > > quite sometime with him (Rebazar),
          > > six to seven months being taught
          > > and learning the works of ECK...
          > > Now, he initiated me there." [pg.70]
          > >
          > > ME: Yet, Rebazar never mentioned
          > > the "Mahanta" once during these
          > > months!
          > >
          > > PT: "I had already been initiated
          > > (at age 15, 1923) by Sudar Singh,
          > > the same as everybody else, the
          > > second initiation." [pgs. 48 & 70]
          > >
          > > ME: This was, also, an exaggeration
          > > (lie) according to Klemp! Therefore,
          > > there was No Initiation by Sudar Singh.
          > > Actually, there was no Sudar. Kirpal
          > > Singh was Twitchell's Master from
          > > 1955-65. They even have the same
          > > last name! What's this mean? Well,
          > > it means that Eckankar was/is based
          > > upon lie after lie! It's a fraud and so
          > > is Klemp! There's no such thing as
          > > a real "Mahanta." Klemp isn't even
          > > as believable as the Wizard of Oz!
          > >
          > > ***
          > > BTW- Let's remember that Klemp
          > > gives Twitchell's birth year as
          > > 1908 in "The Combined Shariyat,
          > > Books One and Two" on the Copyright
          > > Page.
          > >
          > > The Oct. 22 birthday is given in
          > > the 1998 EK Lexicon, on page 61,
          > > "ECK Spiritual New Year." Funny
          > > how PT's birthday corresponds
          > > to the Spiritual New Year and the
          > > Passing of the Rod of ECK Power!
          > > ***
          > >
          > > PT: "And then I got the Third and
          > > Fourth, I went up through About
          > > the Seventh at this particular time
          > > (pg. 71)."
          > >
          > > ME: How does one go up to
          > > "About" the Seventh Initiation?"
          > > Wouldn't a person remember
          > > what initiation it was if it were
          > > true? This is just more proof
          > > that Twit was lying once again!
          > >
          > > PT: "... later [1951], but not
          > > on this trip, I followed him up
          > > there (the Hindu Kush Mountains)
          > > and I got the finish (12th) of
          > > my initiations (pg. 71)."
          > >
          > > Apparently Rebazar never mentioned
          > > the Mahanta, from 1951-1967, while
          > > Twitchell was a 12th initiate and ECK
          > > Master! I know this because Twitchell
          > > never mentions the "Mahanta" in the
          > > 1967 "The Tiger's Fang!" However, upon
          > > closer inspection, the "Mahanta" was
          > > never mentioned (by Twit) prior to
          > > Jan. 1, 1969.
          > >
          > > Now, the ekplanation for this 16-18
          > > year gap of knowledge (not knowing
          > > about the Mahanta) is quite simple
          > > right? I just can't figure out what it
          > > would be! Insanity, denial, stupidity?
          > >
          > > Prometheus
          > >
          > >
          > > etznab wrote:
          > >
          > > I agree it is most peculiar that "Mahanta" didn't
          > > appear in The Tiger's Fang published 1967.
          > >
          > > There were other early books that didn't mention
          > > it either, if I remember correctly.
          > >
          > >
          > > prometheus wrote:
          > >
          > > Hello Etznab and All,
          > > I started another thread for this discussion.
          > > Paul never mentions the "Mahanta" in the
          > > 1967 Copyright of The Tiger's Fang. It wasn't
          > > until two years later (1969) that PT dreamed
          > > up the Mahanta title and all of the "Puffery"
          > > that goes with it. PT merely describes Rebazar
          > > Tarzs, in Tiger's Fang, as a "Spiritual Traveler"
          > > and "Godman." Not until Twit created the
          > > Mahanta title for himself did Rebazar become
          > > one too! 20/20 hindsight, with rewrites,
          > > editing and omissions is how the Eckankar
          > > fraud, under Klemp's reign, continues to
          > > delude its followers.
          > >
          > > Really, one would think that when the fictitious
          > > Rebazar visited Twitchell and took him on all
          > > of those Inner Plane journeys and taught him
          > > all of those secret teachings and when he made
          > > PT the 971st LEM in 1965 that he would have
          > > mentioned the "Mahanta" Consciousness at
          > > one time or another! However, it wasn't for
          > > Four More Years that this information (if we
          > > believe the lie) becomes known to Twitchell!
          > > Hmmmmmm. Now why didn't Rebz mention
          > > the Mahanta Con to Twit sooner? Obviously
          > > it just took Twit this amount of time, and with
          > > the right circumstances, for him to figure out
          > > the Mahanta Con. It is a convenient lie. Or,
          > > are we being too logical I wonder? Isn't there
          > > some magical ekplanation for this 4 year
          > > gap, 1965-1969?
          > >
          > > Prometheus
          > >
          > > Hello Etznab,
          > > It's kind of a moot point as to "when"
          > > Twitchell claims to have received the
          > > Fake Rod of ECK Power... it was whenever
          > > he claimed (like Oct. 22,1965). Liars
          > > have trouble remembering the details
          > > of their lies. That's why Twit made
          > > the date of the LEM lie correspond to
          > > his birthday, Oct. 22. And, he officially
          > > created or started the "outer church"
          > > on this date. This way he'd remember
          > > it! What's even funnier, and more remarkable,
          > > is Paul wrote his dogma to show that
          > > every LEM receives the ROD, throughout
          > > history, on this date... his birthday!
          > >
          > > PT did promote "Flute" via installments
          > > (circa 1966) where he, also, used other,
          > > REAL, peoples' names and later substituted
          > > these with the names of fake "EK Masters."
          > > The book was Copyrighted in 1969, but
          > > didn't get into print until 1970 probably
          > > due to reediting. The Copyright of 1969,
          > > and the First Printing date of 1970 are
          > > given in my 6th, 1979 Printing of The Flute
          > > of God.
          > >
          > > As for his lie about the Mahanta Initiation?
          > > This idea had to occur just prior to Jan. 1,
          > > 1969 since Twitchell didn't mention the
          > > name/word "Mahanta" in the Dec. 1, 1968
          > > Monthly Issue of The Wisdom Notes. Nor
          > > did PT mention the "Mahanta" in any other
          > > publication or Monthly Wisdom Note prior
          > > to Jan. 1, 1969. This is just using the facts,
          > > as well as, logic and common sense. Plus,
          > > even Klemp states that Twitchell was a lying
          > > in 1935, at age 27, when he was trying to
          > > get into Who's Who in Kentucky. Therefore,
          > > a past track record of lying has been verified
          > > by Klemp.
          > >
          > > The Tiger's Fang was Copyrighted in 1967,
          > > but let's remember that Klemp states that
          > > Kirpal Singh returned the manuscript to
          > > Paul circa June, 1966. Since "Mahanta" wasn't
          > > mentioned in 1968 we can only assume
          > > that it was not mentioned in 1967. However,
          > > there was a reediting of this book, by Klemp,
          > > in 1988 for a Second Printing. This is where
          > > "Mahanta" had to be inserted... by Klemp!
          > >
          > > If one has paid attention they will see that
          > > Klemp has not only given new covers to
          > > Paul's older works, but has done reediting
          > > as well. Just look at the differences and
          > > changes that Klemp made to Paul's Eckankar
          > > Dictionary! Compare HK's 1998 EK Lexicon
          > > to Paul's Dictionary. Now compare Klemp's
          > > current Lexicon to his 1998 Lexicon. It's
          > > sad that Klemp has been reediting Twitchell's
          > > works, but he can do this because Gail sold
          > > the rights to Paul's works to Eckankar.
          > >
          > > Even though Gail got her 30 pieces of silver,
          > > ($500,000) there are many H.I.s, Marman
          > > included, that are still her friend. Then again,
          > > these ECK H.I.s are the friend of Patti as well.
          > > How's Klemp's editing and discontinuation
          > > of PT's writings working out for these old -timers?
          > >
          > > Prometheus
          > >
          > > etznab wrote:
          > >
          > > hat was interesting what you said about
          > > "Mahanta".
          > >
          > > Just the other day I was trying to remember
          > > exactly where Paul Twitchell describes HIS
          > > experience receiving the "Rod of Eck Power"
          > > and becoming the Mahanta, the Living Eck
          > > Master October 22nd, 1965. (was it?)
          > >
          > > Was that the date?
          > >
          > > I assumed the writing about it would have to
          > > be subsequent to October 1965. So I looked
          > > for books after that date.
          > >
          > > The Flute of God came out in installments
          > > in the Orion magazine in 1966 - and Intro.
          > > to Eckankar seems to be 1966, too (I don't
          > > have that last book.) The Tiger's Fang came
          > > out in 1967, but was reportedly written about
          > > 1957 according to Doug and 1956 according
          > > to Darwin Gross, I think.
          > >
          > > 1968 is when the Wisdom Notes come out
          > > (January). MSIA developed (The first seminar
          > > took place on May 4, 1968). The July W.N.
          > > mentions "ECK Master", I believe, and then
          > > various other forms of "Master".
          > >
          > > All About ECK, The Key to Eckankar and
          > > In My Soul I Am Free came out in 1968.
          > >
          > > It was the January 1969 W.N. that mentioned
          > > "Mahanta", if I remember correctly. Stranger
          > > By The River, The Flute of God and Eckankar,
          > > The Key to Secret Worlds came out in 1969,
          > > I believe. (That would be the edited version of
          > > The Flute of God).
          > >
          > > The Shariyats came out (or being "translated")
          > > from the 1970s and I believe Paul suggested
          > > he was going to explain the "Mahanta" there in
          > > one of them, at least. Or talk more about the
          > > "Mahanta, the Living Eck Master".
          > >
          > > The February 1970 Wisdom Note mentions
          > > "MAHANTA - the living ECK Master" I believe.
          > >
          > > OK. So where in all these books since 1965
          > > does Paul Twitchell write about his receiving
          > > of the "R.O.E.P." from Rebazar Tarzs? Does
          > > anybody remember? Maybe he talked about
          > > it at a seminar and it's on tape?
          > >
          > > I'd like to find out when that experience was
          > > mentioned and what was said about it to get
          > > an idea about what "history" might exist.
          > >
          > > Don't mean to change the thread subject, but
          > > I thought this query could be relevant to the
          > > "Mahanta" topic.
          > >
          > > Etznab
          > >
          > > prometheus wrote:
          > >
          > > Hello All,
          > > I just thought I'd point out a few thing that
          > > Ford overlooked. Here's what Ford said:
          > >
          > > Ford: "How the Myth of the Mahanta was Fabricated
          > >
          > > In spite of what is now known about Twitchell's
          > > condition of mythomania, Klemp continues to
          > > delude himself into believing that Twitchell's
          > > 1965 creation of the Mahanta myth is actually
          > > true."
          > >
          > > ME: Actually, Twitchell created the Mahanta
          > > Myth around January 1969 and not in 1965.
          > > In "Paul Twitchell Presents, The Wisdom Notes,
          > > January 1968-October 1971" one can clearly
          > > see that Twitchell mentions the "Mahanta" for
          > > the very first time in this Jan. 1, 1969 Monthly
          > > "The Wisdom Notes."
          > >
          > > Ford: "Klemp seems oblivious to the fact that
          > > Twitchell stole even the name from another
          > > spiritual path. When it made its early appearance
          > > in his book The Flute of God (pp. 46, 55), it
          > > was merely a synonym for spirit and a state
          > > of consciousness like "love" or any other thought
          > > form This was easy to accept, for most people
          > > believe in some universal force whether called
          > > "spirit" or by some other name. Twitchell later
          > > associated the word "Mahanta" with the "man"
          > > and added it to his exalted title. With this verbalfusion
          > > of two words, he was able to transform himself
          > > into spirit itself ¾since spirit and Mahanta now
          > > meant the same thing. He then diffused the word
          > > "Mahanta" throughout the Eckankar teachings,
          > > and reinforced the Mahanta/Spirit connection
          > > by making it part of "every word, thought and
          > > action" of his followers."
          > >
          > > ME: The "Mahanta" (Consciousness) can, also,
          > > be found on page 39, as well as, pages 46 & 55
          > > in Twitchell's 1969 "The Flute of God." The term
          > > Mahanta was used only three times in this 1969
          > > Copyright. And, the 1st printing of this book was
          > > in 1970. This is more proof that Twitchell didn't
          > > create this term/position for himself until 1969.
          > >
          > > BTW-In mid to late 1968 Twitchell felt threatened
          > > by two internal conflicts. One was when 2nd
          > > Initiate John-Rogers (Hinkle) left Eckankar and
          > > used PT's discourses to start his own religion/path
          > > (MSIA). Also, after this, Twitchell added the caution
          > > that sharing one's discourses was not permitted and
          > > was a violation of spiritual law among other threats.
          > >
          > > The second thing was that Paul began to renege
          > > on his 5 year plan to step down as LEM since
          > > Eckankar, now, began to do well and make money.
          > > This caused many of his H.I.s (in-line to take over)
          > > to become very upset. Thus, Paul had to come
          > > up with a plan and a title to make himself beyond
          > > reproach and regain control as the highest of
          > > all Masters. Therefore, Twit created the Mahanta
          > > title and definition.
          > >
          > > Plus, PT added two more initiations levels (14)
          > > for himself. However, the "Worlds of ECK" Chart,
          > > on page 232, of Klemp's 1998 ECK Lexicon shows
          > > 12 Planes and Initiation Levels. The highest (12th)
          > > states: "SUGMAD (God) Ocean of Love and Mercy."
          > > Apparently neither Twitchell or Klemp felt the
          > > need to "correct" the chart. Interesting, too, that
          > > on page 9 of Klemp's 1998 ECK Lexicon the definition
          > > for "ANAMI LOK" states that this is "the world
          > > of the Supreme Being, the Sugmad... the word
          > > is HU; the TENTH Plane; the Nameless Plane."
          > > Twitchell always had trouble keeping his lies
          > > straight!
          > >
          > > Originally, the term Mahanta meant "Monastery
          > > Head." This term can be found in "The Holy Science"
          > > by Swami Sri Yukteswar (1855-1936), Seventh
          > > Edition 1972, Third Printing 1977, in the Introduction,
          > > page vi, footnoted at the bottom. Sri Yukteswar
          > > was Sri Yogananda's master. BTW- This is an
          > > interesting book and I'm fairly certain that Twitchell
          > > had speed read and "compiled" it too! Sri Yukteswar
          > > talks about Allahabad, the Kumbha Mela, the
          > > Yugas, etc., and this is a location (Allahabad)
          > > that Twitchell claims that Sudar (Kirpal) Singh,
          > > 970th LEM, was from.
          > >
          > > I do agree with what Ford has stated. I just
          > > wanted to present more details than what
          > > were first gathered. It's a big job digging
          > > for and sorting out facts (the Truth) when
          > > Twit was such a liar and Klemp is covering
          > > up for him, as well as, creating his own
          > > newer version of Eckankar with more lies
          > > and distortions.
          > >
          > > There's one more thing that I wanted to
          > > mention. Isn't it interesting about Beliefs.
          > > Christians believe that Jesus will come
          > > again in their/this lifetime, and ECKists
          > > believe that they will achieve Spiritual
          > > Freedom via God-Realization in this
          > > lifetime. Religion is all about mass delusion!
          > >
          > > Okay, one more thing. Most ECKists
          > > will deny this, but they share the same
          > > Garden of Eden Myth with Christians!
          > > Twitchell just did his usual letter/word
          > > switch and made Adam into Adom and
          > > Eve into Ede. Just look at the definition
          > > for "Polarians" in Klemp's 1998 ECK
          > > Lexicon. Yet, I've seen on HU Chat
          > > where ECKists have made fun of the
          > > Christian Garden of Eden Myth! It
          > > would seem that they are laughing
          > > at themselves and don't realize it!
          > > How clueless! Then again, an inability
          > > to do critical thinking and Not being
          > > able to connect-the-dots is why they're
          > > still ECKists.
          > >
          > > Prometheus
          >
        • prometheus_973
          Hello Ingrid, I was curious if you know how many countries force people to pay a tax for church membership? Which countries and which churches does it include?
          Message 4 of 15 , Mar 5, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            Hello Ingrid,
            I was curious if you know how
            many countries force people to
            pay a tax for church membership?
            Which countries and which churches
            does it include? Why are these
            governments forcing people to
            pay this tax? Are the churches that
            powerful, or is the government taking
            their cut too? Is it just the Catholic and
            Lutheran churches? Were you forced
            to pay a tax due to Eckankar membership?

            Forgive the questions but I've heard
            something about this happening in
            Germany.

            Prometheus


            ctecvie wrote:

            Hi Prometheus,

            yes the "feel good" factor is another
            important issue why people need
            religions. Isn't it just great to feel
            like the ones who will be "saved"
            because they belong to the "right"
            group of people and to just know
            it all? It's really so good to look
            down on the poor devils who haven't
            figured it out for themselves
            ... :-D

            And the karma thingie in eckankar
            is the same thing as the original sin
            of the Catholics - if the ekkies opened
            their eyes, they could see that very easily!
            LOL!

            Ingrid

            prometheus wrote:
            >
            > Hi Ingrid and All,
            > Yes, all religions take our money
            > in one way or another. All of us pay
            > for their Holy Wars that they wage
            > upon the rest of us. Their members
            > also pay for future promises and to
            > feel good and all puffed-up, now,
            > while looking down their noses at
            > all of the other poor lost Souls. It's
            > interesting that so many of them
            > believe in the "end-of-days" propaganda/
            > dogma including Eckankar (Kali Yuga)!
            > Plus, there's the Garden of Eden Myth
            > that Eckankar, also, subscribes to
            > (see "Polarians" pg. 162, 1998 ECK Lexicon).
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
            > ctecvie wrote:
            >
            > Hi Prometheus and all,
            >
            > commenting on the last paragraph of your post:
            > Religions pretend that they can give answers to
            > questions that cannot be answered. We need to
            > accept the fact that not everything can be explained.
            > And that's where religions come in and make (our)
            > money!
            >
            > Ingrid
            >
            >
            > prometheus wrote:
            > >
            > > Hello All,
            > > Let's summarize Paul's Initiation lies:
            > >
            > > 1) 2nd Initiation - by Sudar Singh
            > > at "about" age 16 (1923-24).
            > > Paul states that he and Kay-Dee
            > > traveled from "Paris," with Sudar,
            > > and stayed in Allahabad, India
            > > for one year. [pgs. 40 & 45]
            > >
            > > 2) 3rd-7th Initiations - were given
            > > to Paul at age 39 (1947) while visiting
            > > Rebazar, for 6-7 months, in the Hindu
            > > Kush Mountains. [pgs 70-71]
            > >
            > > 3) 8th-12th initiations - were given
            > > to Paul by Rebazar. Paul followed RT
            > > into the Hindu Kush at age 43 (1951).
            > > [pg. 71] Klemp claims that this was
            > > Twitchell's "second visit to India" on
            > > eckankar.org
            > >
            > > Therefore, we have Klemp stating that
            > > Twitchell lied (early on) at age 27 (1935),
            > > in order to get into Who's Who. Also, PT
            > > lied as to how many times he traveled
            > > to India. Actually, I'm not so sure that
            > > Twit ever travelled to India!
            > >
            > > Now, in these July, 1971, "private tapings"
            > > we see that Paul (the Mahanta) is still
            > > lying! And, this is just a couple of months
            > > before his death on Sept. 17, 1971!
            > >
            > > What's it all mean? It means that Twit
            > > conned people and that Klemp is still
            > > conning them. It's all a Big Fat Lie!
            > > But, should anyone be surprised when
            > > religions lie to the stupid or to trusting,
            > > gullible and loving people? Most people
            > > want to believe and they want to believe
            > > the best in whatever or whomever.
            > > Everyone has to figure out what category
            > > of delusion they fall-in. Hierarchies
            > > are manmade just as religions are.
            > >
            > > Prometheus
            > >
            > >
            > > prometheus wrote:
            > > Hello Etznab and All,
            > > "Difficulties Of Becoming The
            > > Living ECK Master" are historical
            > > transcriptions from private tapings
            > > by Twitchell. On page 11 it states:
            > >
            > > "(In July 1971, Sri Paul Twitchell
            > > made private tapings of his struggles
            > > before and after his acceptance
            > > of the Rod of ECK Power on October
            > > 22, 1965... Our thanks to Patti Simpson
            > > who presented these tapes to Sri
            > > Darwin.)"
            > >
            > > On pages 45-48, and 70-71,
            > > Twitchell tells his story of being
            > > initiated by Rebazar, at age 39
            > > in 1947, on supposedly, his FIRST
            > > trip to India. Except, Paul claims,
            > > at age 15, he visited SUDAR in India
            > > after leaving Paris. Oops! Another
            > > lie! Marman states that this was
            > > Paris, Kentucky and Not France
            > > as Paul would have us to believe.
            > >
            > > Let's also recall that Klemp states,
            > > on eckankar.org, that at age 27
            > > (1935) Paul was "exaggerating"
            > > and "twisting facts" (lying) about
            > > his "grand achievements" to get
            > > into "Who's Who in Kentucky."
            > > Thus, there was no trip to Paris
            > > (France) nor to India at age 15
            > > in 1923!
            > >
            > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Twit states:
            > > "In 1947... I stayed there (India) for
            > > quite sometime with him (Rebazar),
            > > six to seven months being taught
            > > and learning the works of ECK...
            > > Now, he initiated me there." [pg.70]
            > >
            > > ME: Yet, Rebazar never mentioned
            > > the "Mahanta" once during these
            > > months!
            > >
            > > PT: "I had already been initiated
            > > (at age 15, 1923) by Sudar Singh,
            > > the same as everybody else, the
            > > second initiation." [pgs. 48 & 70]
            > >
            > > ME: This was, also, an exaggeration
            > > (lie) according to Klemp! Therefore,
            > > there was No Initiation by Sudar Singh.
            > > Actually, there was no Sudar. Kirpal
            > > Singh was Twitchell's Master from
            > > 1955-65. They even have the same
            > > last name! What's this mean? Well,
            > > it means that Eckankar was/is based
            > > upon lie after lie! It's a fraud and so
            > > is Klemp! There's no such thing as
            > > a real "Mahanta." Klemp isn't even
            > > as believable as the Wizard of Oz!
            > >
            > > ***
            > > BTW- Let's remember that Klemp
            > > gives Twitchell's birth year as
            > > 1908 in "The Combined Shariyat,
            > > Books One and Two" on the Copyright
            > > Page.
            > >
            > > The Oct. 22 birthday is given in
            > > the 1998 EK Lexicon, on page 61,
            > > "ECK Spiritual New Year." Funny
            > > how PT's birthday corresponds
            > > to the Spiritual New Year and the
            > > Passing of the Rod of ECK Power!
            > > ***
            > >
            > > PT: "And then I got the Third and
            > > Fourth, I went up through About
            > > the Seventh at this particular time
            > > (pg. 71)."
            > >
            > > ME: How does one go up to
            > > "About" the Seventh Initiation?"
            > > Wouldn't a person remember
            > > what initiation it was if it were
            > > true? This is just more proof
            > > that Twit was lying once again!
            > >
            > > PT: "... later [1951], but not
            > > on this trip, I followed him up
            > > there (the Hindu Kush Mountains)
            > > and I got the finish (12th) of
            > > my initiations (pg. 71)."
            > >
            > > Apparently Rebazar never mentioned
            > > the Mahanta, from 1951-1967, while
            > > Twitchell was a 12th initiate and ECK
            > > Master! I know this because Twitchell
            > > never mentions the "Mahanta" in the
            > > 1967 "The Tiger's Fang!" However, upon
            > > closer inspection, the "Mahanta" was
            > > never mentioned (by Twit) prior to
            > > Jan. 1, 1969.
            > >
            > > Now, the ekplanation for this 16-18
            > > year gap of knowledge (not knowing
            > > about the Mahanta) is quite simple
            > > right? I just can't figure out what it
            > > would be! Insanity, denial, stupidity?
            > >
            > > Prometheus
            > >
            > >
            > > etznab wrote:
            > >
            > > I agree it is most peculiar that "Mahanta" didn't
            > > appear in The Tiger's Fang published 1967.
            > >
            > > There were other early books that didn't mention
            > > it either, if I remember correctly.
            > >
            > >
            > > prometheus wrote:
            > >
            > > Hello Etznab and All,
            > > I started another thread for this discussion.
            > > Paul never mentions the "Mahanta" in the
            > > 1967 Copyright of The Tiger's Fang. It wasn't
            > > until two years later (1969) that PT dreamed
            > > up the Mahanta title and all of the "Puffery"
            > > that goes with it. PT merely describes Rebazar
            > > Tarzs, in Tiger's Fang, as a "Spiritual Traveler"
            > > and "Godman." Not until Twit created the
            > > Mahanta title for himself did Rebazar become
            > > one too! 20/20 hindsight, with rewrites,
            > > editing and omissions is how the Eckankar
            > > fraud, under Klemp's reign, continues to
            > > delude its followers.
            > >
            > > Really, one would think that when the fictitious
            > > Rebazar visited Twitchell and took him on all
            > > of those Inner Plane journeys and taught him
            > > all of those secret teachings and when he made
            > > PT the 971st LEM in 1965 that he would have
            > > mentioned the "Mahanta" Consciousness at
            > > one time or another! However, it wasn't for
            > > Four More Years that this information (if we
            > > believe the lie) becomes known to Twitchell!
            > > Hmmmmmm. Now why didn't Rebz mention
            > > the Mahanta Con to Twit sooner? Obviously
            > > it just took Twit this amount of time, and with
            > > the right circumstances, for him to figure out
            > > the Mahanta Con. It is a convenient lie. Or,
            > > are we being too logical I wonder? Isn't there
            > > some magical ekplanation for this 4 year
            > > gap, 1965-1969?
            > >
            > > Prometheus
            > >
            > > Hello Etznab,
            > > It's kind of a moot point as to "when"
            > > Twitchell claims to have received the
            > > Fake Rod of ECK Power... it was whenever
            > > he claimed (like Oct. 22,1965). Liars
            > > have trouble remembering the details
            > > of their lies. That's why Twit made
            > > the date of the LEM lie correspond to
            > > his birthday, Oct. 22. And, he officially
            > > created or started the "outer church"
            > > on this date. This way he'd remember
            > > it! What's even funnier, and more remarkable,
            > > is Paul wrote his dogma to show that
            > > every LEM receives the ROD, throughout
            > > history, on this date... his birthday!
            > >
            > > PT did promote "Flute" via installments
            > > (circa 1966) where he, also, used other,
            > > REAL, peoples' names and later substituted
            > > these with the names of fake "EK Masters."
            > > The book was Copyrighted in 1969, but
            > > didn't get into print until 1970 probably
            > > due to reediting. The Copyright of 1969,
            > > and the First Printing date of 1970 are
            > > given in my 6th, 1979 Printing of The Flute
            > > of God.
            > >
            > > As for his lie about the Mahanta Initiation?
            > > This idea had to occur just prior to Jan. 1,
            > > 1969 since Twitchell didn't mention the
            > > name/word "Mahanta" in the Dec. 1, 1968
            > > Monthly Issue of The Wisdom Notes. Nor
            > > did PT mention the "Mahanta" in any other
            > > publication or Monthly Wisdom Note prior
            > > to Jan. 1, 1969. This is just using the facts,
            > > as well as, logic and common sense. Plus,
            > > even Klemp states that Twitchell was a lying
            > > in 1935, at age 27, when he was trying to
            > > get into Who's Who in Kentucky. Therefore,
            > > a past track record of lying has been verified
            > > by Klemp.
            > >
            > > The Tiger's Fang was Copyrighted in 1967,
            > > but let's remember that Klemp states that
            > > Kirpal Singh returned the manuscript to
            > > Paul circa June, 1966. Since "Mahanta" wasn't
            > > mentioned in 1968 we can only assume
            > > that it was not mentioned in 1967. However,
            > > there was a reediting of this book, by Klemp,
            > > in 1988 for a Second Printing. This is where
            > > "Mahanta" had to be inserted... by Klemp!
            > >
            > > If one has paid attention they will see that
            > > Klemp has not only given new covers to
            > > Paul's older works, but has done reediting
            > > as well. Just look at the differences and
            > > changes that Klemp made to Paul's Eckankar
            > > Dictionary! Compare HK's 1998 EK Lexicon
            > > to Paul's Dictionary. Now compare Klemp's
            > > current Lexicon to his 1998 Lexicon. It's
            > > sad that Klemp has been reediting Twitchell's
            > > works, but he can do this because Gail sold
            > > the rights to Paul's works to Eckankar.
            > >
            > > Even though Gail got her 30 pieces of silver,
            > > ($500,000) there are many H.I.s, Marman
            > > included, that are still her friend. Then again,
            > > these ECK H.I.s are the friend of Patti as well.
            > > How's Klemp's editing and discontinuation
            > > of PT's writings working out for these old -timers?
            > >
            > > Prometheus
            > >
            > > etznab wrote:
            > >
            > > hat was interesting what you said about
            > > "Mahanta".
            > >
            > > Just the other day I was trying to remember
            > > exactly where Paul Twitchell describes HIS
            > > experience receiving the "Rod of Eck Power"
            > > and becoming the Mahanta, the Living Eck
            > > Master October 22nd, 1965. (was it?)
            > >
            > > Was that the date?
            > >
            > > I assumed the writing about it would have to
            > > be subsequent to October 1965. So I looked
            > > for books after that date.
            > >
            > > The Flute of God came out in installments
            > > in the Orion magazine in 1966 - and Intro.
            > > to Eckankar seems to be 1966, too (I don't
            > > have that last book.) The Tiger's Fang came
            > > out in 1967, but was reportedly written about
            > > 1957 according to Doug and 1956 according
            > > to Darwin Gross, I think.
            > >
            > > 1968 is when the Wisdom Notes come out
            > > (January). MSIA developed (The first seminar
            > > took place on May 4, 1968). The July W.N.
            > > mentions "ECK Master", I believe, and then
            > > various other forms of "Master".
            > >
            > > All About ECK, The Key to Eckankar and
            > > In My Soul I Am Free came out in 1968.
            > >
            > > It was the January 1969 W.N. that mentioned
            > > "Mahanta", if I remember correctly. Stranger
            > > By The River, The Flute of God and Eckankar,
            > > The Key to Secret Worlds came out in 1969,
            > > I believe. (That would be the edited version of
            > > The Flute of God).
            > >
            > > The Shariyats came out (or being "translated")
            > > from the 1970s and I believe Paul suggested
            > > he was going to explain the "Mahanta" there in
            > > one of them, at least. Or talk more about the
            > > "Mahanta, the Living Eck Master".
            > >
            > > The February 1970 Wisdom Note mentions
            > > "MAHANTA - the living ECK Master" I believe.
            > >
            > > OK. So where in all these books since 1965
            > > does Paul Twitchell write about his receiving
            > > of the "R.O.E.P." from Rebazar Tarzs? Does
            > > anybody remember? Maybe he talked about
            > > it at a seminar and it's on tape?
            > >
            > > I'd like to find out when that experience was
            > > mentioned and what was said about it to get
            > > an idea about what "history" might exist.
            > >
            > > Don't mean to change the thread subject, but
            > > I thought this query could be relevant to the
            > > "Mahanta" topic.
            > >
            > > Etznab
            > >
            > > prometheus wrote:
            > >
            > > Hello All,
            > > I just thought I'd point out a few thing that
            > > Ford overlooked. Here's what Ford said:
            > >
            > > Ford: "How the Myth of the Mahanta was Fabricated
            > >
            > > In spite of what is now known about Twitchell's
            > > condition of mythomania, Klemp continues to
            > > delude himself into believing that Twitchell's
            > > 1965 creation of the Mahanta myth is actually
            > > true."
            > >
            > > ME: Actually, Twitchell created the Mahanta
            > > Myth around January 1969 and not in 1965.
            > > In "Paul Twitchell Presents, The Wisdom Notes,
            > > January 1968-October 1971" one can clearly
            > > see that Twitchell mentions the "Mahanta" for
            > > the very first time in this Jan. 1, 1969 Monthly
            > > "The Wisdom Notes."
            > >
            > > Ford: "Klemp seems oblivious to the fact that
            > > Twitchell stole even the name from another
            > > spiritual path. When it made its early appearance
            > > in his book The Flute of God (pp. 46, 55), it
            > > was merely a synonym for spirit and a state
            > > of consciousness like "love" or any other thought
            > > form This was easy to accept, for most people
            > > believe in some universal force whether called
            > > "spirit" or by some other name. Twitchell later
            > > associated the word "Mahanta" with the "man"
            > > and added it to his exalted title. With this verbalfusion
            > > of two words, he was able to transform himself
            > > into spirit itself ¾since spirit and Mahanta now
            > > meant the same thing. He then diffused the word
            > > "Mahanta" throughout the Eckankar teachings,
            > > and reinforced the Mahanta/Spirit connection
            > > by making it part of "every word, thought and
            > > action" of his followers."
            > >
            > > ME: The "Mahanta" (Consciousness) can, also,
            > > be found on page 39, as well as, pages 46 & 55
            > > in Twitchell's 1969 "The Flute of God." The term
            > > Mahanta was used only three times in this 1969
            > > Copyright. And, the 1st printing of this book was
            > > in 1970. This is more proof that Twitchell didn't
            > > create this term/position for himself until 1969.
            > >
            > > BTW-In mid to late 1968 Twitchell felt threatened
            > > by two internal conflicts. One was when 2nd
            > > Initiate John-Rogers (Hinkle) left Eckankar and
            > > used PT's discourses to start his own religion/path
            > > (MSIA). Also, after this, Twitchell added the caution
            > > that sharing one's discourses was not permitted and
            > > was a violation of spiritual law among other threats.
            > >
            > > The second thing was that Paul began to renege
            > > on his 5 year plan to step down as LEM since
            > > Eckankar, now, began to do well and make money.
            > > This caused many of his H.I.s (in-line to take over)
            > > to become very upset. Thus, Paul had to come
            > > up with a plan and a title to make himself beyond
            > > reproach and regain control as the highest of
            > > all Masters. Therefore, Twit created the Mahanta
            > > title and definition.
            > >
            > > Plus, PT added two more initiations levels (14)
            > > for himself. However, the "Worlds of ECK" Chart,
            > > on page 232, of Klemp's 1998 ECK Lexicon shows
            > > 12 Planes and Initiation Levels. The highest (12th)
            > > states: "SUGMAD (God) Ocean of Love and Mercy."
            > > Apparently neither Twitchell or Klemp felt the
            > > need to "correct" the chart. Interesting, too, that
            > > on page 9 of Klemp's 1998 ECK Lexicon the definition
            > > for "ANAMI LOK" states that this is "the world
            > > of the Supreme Being, the Sugmad... the word
            > > is HU; the TENTH Plane; the Nameless Plane."
            > > Twitchell always had trouble keeping his lies
            > > straight!
            > >
            > > Originally, the term Mahanta meant "Monastery
            > > Head." This term can be found in "The Holy Science"
            > > by Swami Sri Yukteswar (1855-1936), Seventh
            > > Edition 1972, Third Printing 1977, in the Introduction,
            > > page vi, footnoted at the bottom. Sri Yukteswar
            > > was Sri Yogananda's master. BTW- This is an
            > > interesting book and I'm fairly certain that Twitchell
            > > had speed read and "compiled" it too! Sri Yukteswar
            > > talks about Allahabad, the Kumbha Mela, the
            > > Yugas, etc., and this is a location (Allahabad)
            > > that Twitchell claims that Sudar (Kirpal) Singh,
            > > 970th LEM, was from.
            > >
            > > I do agree with what Ford has stated. I just
            > > wanted to present more details than what
            > > were first gathered. It's a big job digging
            > > for and sorting out facts (the Truth) when
            > > Twit was such a liar and Klemp is covering
            > > up for him, as well as, creating his own
            > > newer version of Eckankar with more lies
            > > and distortions.
            > >
            > > There's one more thing that I wanted to
            > > mention. Isn't it interesting about Beliefs.
            > > Christians believe that Jesus will come
            > > again in their/this lifetime, and ECKists
            > > believe that they will achieve Spiritual
            > > Freedom via God-Realization in this
            > > lifetime. Religion is all about mass delusion!
            > >
            > > Okay, one more thing. Most ECKists
            > > will deny this, but they share the same
            > > Garden of Eden Myth with Christians!
            > > Twitchell just did his usual letter/word
            > > switch and made Adam into Adom and
            > > Eve into Ede. Just look at the definition
            > > for "Polarians" in Klemp's 1998 ECK
            > > Lexicon. Yet, I've seen on HU Chat
            > > where ECKists have made fun of the
            > > Christian Garden of Eden Myth! It
            > > would seem that they are laughing
            > > at themselves and don't realize it!
            > > How clueless! Then again, an inability
            > > to do critical thinking and Not being
            > > able to connect-the-dots is why they're
            > > still ECKists.
            > >
            > > Prometheus
          • ctecvie
            Hi Prometheus, ... ***In Austria, it s only the Catholic church. As far as I know, Lutherans don t pay anything. And no, I didn t pay any tex when I was a
            Message 5 of 15 , Mar 5, 2010
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi Prometheus,

              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hello Ingrid,
              > I was curious if you know how
              > many countries force people to
              > pay a tax for church membership?
              ***In Austria it's the Catholic church. I don't know if there are any other countries but I think that in Germany a church tax is deduced directly from the salary if you are a member of that particular church - I think it's the Lutherans.

              > Which countries and which churches
              > does it include? Why are these
              > governments forcing people to
              > pay this tax?
              ***In Austria, it's not the government but the Catholic church itself. Once you start working and are a Catholic, they come inevitably and charge you a fee. You need to give proof of your salary because if you don't they'll just charge you any amount that comes them to mind. I left the Catholic church in 1986, so no more hassle since that time! If you try to disappear, they'll find you somehow.

              >Are the churches that
              > powerful, or is the government taking
              > their cut too?
              ***Not in Austria, no.
              >Is it just the Catholic and
              > Lutheran churches? Were you forced
              > to pay a tax due to Eckankar membership?
              ***In Austria, it's only the Catholic church. As far as I know, Lutherans don't pay anything. And no, I didn't pay any tex when I was a member of eckankar.
              Ingrid

              >
              > Forgive the questions but I've heard
              > something about this happening in
              > Germany.
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
              >
              > ctecvie wrote:
              >
              > Hi Prometheus,
              >
              > yes the "feel good" factor is another
              > important issue why people need
              > religions. Isn't it just great to feel
              > like the ones who will be "saved"
              > because they belong to the "right"
              > group of people and to just know
              > it all? It's really so good to look
              > down on the poor devils who haven't
              > figured it out for themselves
              > ... :-D
              >
              > And the karma thingie in eckankar
              > is the same thing as the original sin
              > of the Catholics - if the ekkies opened
              > their eyes, they could see that very easily!
              > LOL!
              >
              > Ingrid
              >
              > prometheus wrote:
              > >
              > > Hi Ingrid and All,
              > > Yes, all religions take our money
              > > in one way or another. All of us pay
              > > for their Holy Wars that they wage
              > > upon the rest of us. Their members
              > > also pay for future promises and to
              > > feel good and all puffed-up, now,
              > > while looking down their noses at
              > > all of the other poor lost Souls. It's
              > > interesting that so many of them
              > > believe in the "end-of-days" propaganda/
              > > dogma including Eckankar (Kali Yuga)!
              > > Plus, there's the Garden of Eden Myth
              > > that Eckankar, also, subscribes to
              > > (see "Polarians" pg. 162, 1998 ECK Lexicon).
              > >
              > > Prometheus
              > >
              > > ctecvie wrote:
              > >
              > > Hi Prometheus and all,
              > >
              > > commenting on the last paragraph of your post:
              > > Religions pretend that they can give answers to
              > > questions that cannot be answered. We need to
              > > accept the fact that not everything can be explained.
              > > And that's where religions come in and make (our)
              > > money!
              > >
              > > Ingrid
              > >
              > >
              > > prometheus wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Hello All,
              > > > Let's summarize Paul's Initiation lies:
              > > >
              > > > 1) 2nd Initiation - by Sudar Singh
              > > > at "about" age 16 (1923-24).
              > > > Paul states that he and Kay-Dee
              > > > traveled from "Paris," with Sudar,
              > > > and stayed in Allahabad, India
              > > > for one year. [pgs. 40 & 45]
              > > >
              > > > 2) 3rd-7th Initiations - were given
              > > > to Paul at age 39 (1947) while visiting
              > > > Rebazar, for 6-7 months, in the Hindu
              > > > Kush Mountains. [pgs 70-71]
              > > >
              > > > 3) 8th-12th initiations - were given
              > > > to Paul by Rebazar. Paul followed RT
              > > > into the Hindu Kush at age 43 (1951).
              > > > [pg. 71] Klemp claims that this was
              > > > Twitchell's "second visit to India" on
              > > > eckankar.org
              > > >
              > > > Therefore, we have Klemp stating that
              > > > Twitchell lied (early on) at age 27 (1935),
              > > > in order to get into Who's Who. Also, PT
              > > > lied as to how many times he traveled
              > > > to India. Actually, I'm not so sure that
              > > > Twit ever travelled to India!
              > > >
              > > > Now, in these July, 1971, "private tapings"
              > > > we see that Paul (the Mahanta) is still
              > > > lying! And, this is just a couple of months
              > > > before his death on Sept. 17, 1971!
              > > >
              > > > What's it all mean? It means that Twit
              > > > conned people and that Klemp is still
              > > > conning them. It's all a Big Fat Lie!
              > > > But, should anyone be surprised when
              > > > religions lie to the stupid or to trusting,
              > > > gullible and loving people? Most people
              > > > want to believe and they want to believe
              > > > the best in whatever or whomever.
              > > > Everyone has to figure out what category
              > > > of delusion they fall-in. Hierarchies
              > > > are manmade just as religions are.
              > > >
              > > > Prometheus
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > prometheus wrote:
              > > > Hello Etznab and All,
              > > > "Difficulties Of Becoming The
              > > > Living ECK Master" are historical
              > > > transcriptions from private tapings
              > > > by Twitchell. On page 11 it states:
              > > >
              > > > "(In July 1971, Sri Paul Twitchell
              > > > made private tapings of his struggles
              > > > before and after his acceptance
              > > > of the Rod of ECK Power on October
              > > > 22, 1965... Our thanks to Patti Simpson
              > > > who presented these tapes to Sri
              > > > Darwin.)"
              > > >
              > > > On pages 45-48, and 70-71,
              > > > Twitchell tells his story of being
              > > > initiated by Rebazar, at age 39
              > > > in 1947, on supposedly, his FIRST
              > > > trip to India. Except, Paul claims,
              > > > at age 15, he visited SUDAR in India
              > > > after leaving Paris. Oops! Another
              > > > lie! Marman states that this was
              > > > Paris, Kentucky and Not France
              > > > as Paul would have us to believe.
              > > >
              > > > Let's also recall that Klemp states,
              > > > on eckankar.org, that at age 27
              > > > (1935) Paul was "exaggerating"
              > > > and "twisting facts" (lying) about
              > > > his "grand achievements" to get
              > > > into "Who's Who in Kentucky."
              > > > Thus, there was no trip to Paris
              > > > (France) nor to India at age 15
              > > > in 1923!
              > > >
              > > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Twit states:
              > > > "In 1947... I stayed there (India) for
              > > > quite sometime with him (Rebazar),
              > > > six to seven months being taught
              > > > and learning the works of ECK...
              > > > Now, he initiated me there." [pg.70]
              > > >
              > > > ME: Yet, Rebazar never mentioned
              > > > the "Mahanta" once during these
              > > > months!
              > > >
              > > > PT: "I had already been initiated
              > > > (at age 15, 1923) by Sudar Singh,
              > > > the same as everybody else, the
              > > > second initiation." [pgs. 48 & 70]
              > > >
              > > > ME: This was, also, an exaggeration
              > > > (lie) according to Klemp! Therefore,
              > > > there was No Initiation by Sudar Singh.
              > > > Actually, there was no Sudar. Kirpal
              > > > Singh was Twitchell's Master from
              > > > 1955-65. They even have the same
              > > > last name! What's this mean? Well,
              > > > it means that Eckankar was/is based
              > > > upon lie after lie! It's a fraud and so
              > > > is Klemp! There's no such thing as
              > > > a real "Mahanta." Klemp isn't even
              > > > as believable as the Wizard of Oz!
              > > >
              > > > ***
              > > > BTW- Let's remember that Klemp
              > > > gives Twitchell's birth year as
              > > > 1908 in "The Combined Shariyat,
              > > > Books One and Two" on the Copyright
              > > > Page.
              > > >
              > > > The Oct. 22 birthday is given in
              > > > the 1998 EK Lexicon, on page 61,
              > > > "ECK Spiritual New Year." Funny
              > > > how PT's birthday corresponds
              > > > to the Spiritual New Year and the
              > > > Passing of the Rod of ECK Power!
              > > > ***
              > > >
              > > > PT: "And then I got the Third and
              > > > Fourth, I went up through About
              > > > the Seventh at this particular time
              > > > (pg. 71)."
              > > >
              > > > ME: How does one go up to
              > > > "About" the Seventh Initiation?"
              > > > Wouldn't a person remember
              > > > what initiation it was if it were
              > > > true? This is just more proof
              > > > that Twit was lying once again!
              > > >
              > > > PT: "... later [1951], but not
              > > > on this trip, I followed him up
              > > > there (the Hindu Kush Mountains)
              > > > and I got the finish (12th) of
              > > > my initiations (pg. 71)."
              > > >
              > > > Apparently Rebazar never mentioned
              > > > the Mahanta, from 1951-1967, while
              > > > Twitchell was a 12th initiate and ECK
              > > > Master! I know this because Twitchell
              > > > never mentions the "Mahanta" in the
              > > > 1967 "The Tiger's Fang!" However, upon
              > > > closer inspection, the "Mahanta" was
              > > > never mentioned (by Twit) prior to
              > > > Jan. 1, 1969.
              > > >
              > > > Now, the ekplanation for this 16-18
              > > > year gap of knowledge (not knowing
              > > > about the Mahanta) is quite simple
              > > > right? I just can't figure out what it
              > > > would be! Insanity, denial, stupidity?
              > > >
              > > > Prometheus
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > etznab wrote:
              > > >
              > > > I agree it is most peculiar that "Mahanta" didn't
              > > > appear in The Tiger's Fang published 1967.
              > > >
              > > > There were other early books that didn't mention
              > > > it either, if I remember correctly.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > prometheus wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Hello Etznab and All,
              > > > I started another thread for this discussion.
              > > > Paul never mentions the "Mahanta" in the
              > > > 1967 Copyright of The Tiger's Fang. It wasn't
              > > > until two years later (1969) that PT dreamed
              > > > up the Mahanta title and all of the "Puffery"
              > > > that goes with it. PT merely describes Rebazar
              > > > Tarzs, in Tiger's Fang, as a "Spiritual Traveler"
              > > > and "Godman." Not until Twit created the
              > > > Mahanta title for himself did Rebazar become
              > > > one too! 20/20 hindsight, with rewrites,
              > > > editing and omissions is how the Eckankar
              > > > fraud, under Klemp's reign, continues to
              > > > delude its followers.
              > > >
              > > > Really, one would think that when the fictitious
              > > > Rebazar visited Twitchell and took him on all
              > > > of those Inner Plane journeys and taught him
              > > > all of those secret teachings and when he made
              > > > PT the 971st LEM in 1965 that he would have
              > > > mentioned the "Mahanta" Consciousness at
              > > > one time or another! However, it wasn't for
              > > > Four More Years that this information (if we
              > > > believe the lie) becomes known to Twitchell!
              > > > Hmmmmmm. Now why didn't Rebz mention
              > > > the Mahanta Con to Twit sooner? Obviously
              > > > it just took Twit this amount of time, and with
              > > > the right circumstances, for him to figure out
              > > > the Mahanta Con. It is a convenient lie. Or,
              > > > are we being too logical I wonder? Isn't there
              > > > some magical ekplanation for this 4 year
              > > > gap, 1965-1969?
              > > >
              > > > Prometheus
              > > >
              > > > Hello Etznab,
              > > > It's kind of a moot point as to "when"
              > > > Twitchell claims to have received the
              > > > Fake Rod of ECK Power... it was whenever
              > > > he claimed (like Oct. 22,1965). Liars
              > > > have trouble remembering the details
              > > > of their lies. That's why Twit made
              > > > the date of the LEM lie correspond to
              > > > his birthday, Oct. 22. And, he officially
              > > > created or started the "outer church"
              > > > on this date. This way he'd remember
              > > > it! What's even funnier, and more remarkable,
              > > > is Paul wrote his dogma to show that
              > > > every LEM receives the ROD, throughout
              > > > history, on this date... his birthday!
              > > >
              > > > PT did promote "Flute" via installments
              > > > (circa 1966) where he, also, used other,
              > > > REAL, peoples' names and later substituted
              > > > these with the names of fake "EK Masters."
              > > > The book was Copyrighted in 1969, but
              > > > didn't get into print until 1970 probably
              > > > due to reediting. The Copyright of 1969,
              > > > and the First Printing date of 1970 are
              > > > given in my 6th, 1979 Printing of The Flute
              > > > of God.
              > > >
              > > > As for his lie about the Mahanta Initiation?
              > > > This idea had to occur just prior to Jan. 1,
              > > > 1969 since Twitchell didn't mention the
              > > > name/word "Mahanta" in the Dec. 1, 1968
              > > > Monthly Issue of The Wisdom Notes. Nor
              > > > did PT mention the "Mahanta" in any other
              > > > publication or Monthly Wisdom Note prior
              > > > to Jan. 1, 1969. This is just using the facts,
              > > > as well as, logic and common sense. Plus,
              > > > even Klemp states that Twitchell was a lying
              > > > in 1935, at age 27, when he was trying to
              > > > get into Who's Who in Kentucky. Therefore,
              > > > a past track record of lying has been verified
              > > > by Klemp.
              > > >
              > > > The Tiger's Fang was Copyrighted in 1967,
              > > > but let's remember that Klemp states that
              > > > Kirpal Singh returned the manuscript to
              > > > Paul circa June, 1966. Since "Mahanta" wasn't
              > > > mentioned in 1968 we can only assume
              > > > that it was not mentioned in 1967. However,
              > > > there was a reediting of this book, by Klemp,
              > > > in 1988 for a Second Printing. This is where
              > > > "Mahanta" had to be inserted... by Klemp!
              > > >
              > > > If one has paid attention they will see that
              > > > Klemp has not only given new covers to
              > > > Paul's older works, but has done reediting
              > > > as well. Just look at the differences and
              > > > changes that Klemp made to Paul's Eckankar
              > > > Dictionary! Compare HK's 1998 EK Lexicon
              > > > to Paul's Dictionary. Now compare Klemp's
              > > > current Lexicon to his 1998 Lexicon. It's
              > > > sad that Klemp has been reediting Twitchell's
              > > > works, but he can do this because Gail sold
              > > > the rights to Paul's works to Eckankar.
              > > >
              > > > Even though Gail got her 30 pieces of silver,
              > > > ($500,000) there are many H.I.s, Marman
              > > > included, that are still her friend. Then again,
              > > > these ECK H.I.s are the friend of Patti as well.
              > > > How's Klemp's editing and discontinuation
              > > > of PT's writings working out for these old -timers?
              > > >
              > > > Prometheus
              > > >
              > > > etznab wrote:
              > > >
              > > > hat was interesting what you said about
              > > > "Mahanta".
              > > >
              > > > Just the other day I was trying to remember
              > > > exactly where Paul Twitchell describes HIS
              > > > experience receiving the "Rod of Eck Power"
              > > > and becoming the Mahanta, the Living Eck
              > > > Master October 22nd, 1965. (was it?)
              > > >
              > > > Was that the date?
              > > >
              > > > I assumed the writing about it would have to
              > > > be subsequent to October 1965. So I looked
              > > > for books after that date.
              > > >
              > > > The Flute of God came out in installments
              > > > in the Orion magazine in 1966 - and Intro.
              > > > to Eckankar seems to be 1966, too (I don't
              > > > have that last book.) The Tiger's Fang came
              > > > out in 1967, but was reportedly written about
              > > > 1957 according to Doug and 1956 according
              > > > to Darwin Gross, I think.
              > > >
              > > > 1968 is when the Wisdom Notes come out
              > > > (January). MSIA developed (The first seminar
              > > > took place on May 4, 1968). The July W.N.
              > > > mentions "ECK Master", I believe, and then
              > > > various other forms of "Master".
              > > >
              > > > All About ECK, The Key to Eckankar and
              > > > In My Soul I Am Free came out in 1968.
              > > >
              > > > It was the January 1969 W.N. that mentioned
              > > > "Mahanta", if I remember correctly. Stranger
              > > > By The River, The Flute of God and Eckankar,
              > > > The Key to Secret Worlds came out in 1969,
              > > > I believe. (That would be the edited version of
              > > > The Flute of God).
              > > >
              > > > The Shariyats came out (or being "translated")
              > > > from the 1970s and I believe Paul suggested
              > > > he was going to explain the "Mahanta" there in
              > > > one of them, at least. Or talk more about the
              > > > "Mahanta, the Living Eck Master".
              > > >
              > > > The February 1970 Wisdom Note mentions
              > > > "MAHANTA - the living ECK Master" I believe.
              > > >
              > > > OK. So where in all these books since 1965
              > > > does Paul Twitchell write about his receiving
              > > > of the "R.O.E.P." from Rebazar Tarzs? Does
              > > > anybody remember? Maybe he talked about
              > > > it at a seminar and it's on tape?
              > > >
              > > > I'd like to find out when that experience was
              > > > mentioned and what was said about it to get
              > > > an idea about what "history" might exist.
              > > >
              > > > Don't mean to change the thread subject, but
              > > > I thought this query could be relevant to the
              > > > "Mahanta" topic.
              > > >
              > > > Etznab
              > > >
              > > > prometheus wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Hello All,
              > > > I just thought I'd point out a few thing that
              > > > Ford overlooked. Here's what Ford said:
              > > >
              > > > Ford: "How the Myth of the Mahanta was Fabricated
              > > >
              > > > In spite of what is now known about Twitchell's
              > > > condition of mythomania, Klemp continues to
              > > > delude himself into believing that Twitchell's
              > > > 1965 creation of the Mahanta myth is actually
              > > > true."
              > > >
              > > > ME: Actually, Twitchell created the Mahanta
              > > > Myth around January 1969 and not in 1965.
              > > > In "Paul Twitchell Presents, The Wisdom Notes,
              > > > January 1968-October 1971" one can clearly
              > > > see that Twitchell mentions the "Mahanta" for
              > > > the very first time in this Jan. 1, 1969 Monthly
              > > > "The Wisdom Notes."
              > > >
              > > > Ford: "Klemp seems oblivious to the fact that
              > > > Twitchell stole even the name from another
              > > > spiritual path. When it made its early appearance
              > > > in his book The Flute of God (pp. 46, 55), it
              > > > was merely a synonym for spirit and a state
              > > > of consciousness like "love" or any other thought
              > > > form This was easy to accept, for most people
              > > > believe in some universal force whether called
              > > > "spirit" or by some other name. Twitchell later
              > > > associated the word "Mahanta" with the "man"
              > > > and added it to his exalted title. With this verbalfusion
              > > > of two words, he was able to transform himself
              > > > into spirit itself ¾since spirit and Mahanta now
              > > > meant the same thing. He then diffused the word
              > > > "Mahanta" throughout the Eckankar teachings,
              > > > and reinforced the Mahanta/Spirit connection
              > > > by making it part of "every word, thought and
              > > > action" of his followers."
              > > >
              > > > ME: The "Mahanta" (Consciousness) can, also,
              > > > be found on page 39, as well as, pages 46 & 55
              > > > in Twitchell's 1969 "The Flute of God." The term
              > > > Mahanta was used only three times in this 1969
              > > > Copyright. And, the 1st printing of this book was
              > > > in 1970. This is more proof that Twitchell didn't
              > > > create this term/position for himself until 1969.
              > > >
              > > > BTW-In mid to late 1968 Twitchell felt threatened
              > > > by two internal conflicts. One was when 2nd
              > > > Initiate John-Rogers (Hinkle) left Eckankar and
              > > > used PT's discourses to start his own religion/path
              > > > (MSIA). Also, after this, Twitchell added the caution
              > > > that sharing one's discourses was not permitted and
              > > > was a violation of spiritual law among other threats.
              > > >
              > > > The second thing was that Paul began to renege
              > > > on his 5 year plan to step down as LEM since
              > > > Eckankar, now, began to do well and make money.
              > > > This caused many of his H.I.s (in-line to take over)
              > > > to become very upset. Thus, Paul had to come
              > > > up with a plan and a title to make himself beyond
              > > > reproach and regain control as the highest of
              > > > all Masters. Therefore, Twit created the Mahanta
              > > > title and definition.
              > > >
              > > > Plus, PT added two more initiations levels (14)
              > > > for himself. However, the "Worlds of ECK" Chart,
              > > > on page 232, of Klemp's 1998 ECK Lexicon shows
              > > > 12 Planes and Initiation Levels. The highest (12th)
              > > > states: "SUGMAD (God) Ocean of Love and Mercy."
              > > > Apparently neither Twitchell or Klemp felt the
              > > > need to "correct" the chart. Interesting, too, that
              > > > on page 9 of Klemp's 1998 ECK Lexicon the definition
              > > > for "ANAMI LOK" states that this is "the world
              > > > of the Supreme Being, the Sugmad... the word
              > > > is HU; the TENTH Plane; the Nameless Plane."
              > > > Twitchell always had trouble keeping his lies
              > > > straight!
              > > >
              > > > Originally, the term Mahanta meant "Monastery
              > > > Head." This term can be found in "The Holy Science"
              > > > by Swami Sri Yukteswar (1855-1936), Seventh
              > > > Edition 1972, Third Printing 1977, in the Introduction,
              > > > page vi, footnoted at the bottom. Sri Yukteswar
              > > > was Sri Yogananda's master. BTW- This is an
              > > > interesting book and I'm fairly certain that Twitchell
              > > > had speed read and "compiled" it too! Sri Yukteswar
              > > > talks about Allahabad, the Kumbha Mela, the
              > > > Yugas, etc., and this is a location (Allahabad)
              > > > that Twitchell claims that Sudar (Kirpal) Singh,
              > > > 970th LEM, was from.
              > > >
              > > > I do agree with what Ford has stated. I just
              > > > wanted to present more details than what
              > > > were first gathered. It's a big job digging
              > > > for and sorting out facts (the Truth) when
              > > > Twit was such a liar and Klemp is covering
              > > > up for him, as well as, creating his own
              > > > newer version of Eckankar with more lies
              > > > and distortions.
              > > >
              > > > There's one more thing that I wanted to
              > > > mention. Isn't it interesting about Beliefs.
              > > > Christians believe that Jesus will come
              > > > again in their/this lifetime, and ECKists
              > > > believe that they will achieve Spiritual
              > > > Freedom via God-Realization in this
              > > > lifetime. Religion is all about mass delusion!
              > > >
              > > > Okay, one more thing. Most ECKists
              > > > will deny this, but they share the same
              > > > Garden of Eden Myth with Christians!
              > > > Twitchell just did his usual letter/word
              > > > switch and made Adam into Adom and
              > > > Eve into Ede. Just look at the definition
              > > > for "Polarians" in Klemp's 1998 ECK
              > > > Lexicon. Yet, I've seen on HU Chat
              > > > where ECKists have made fun of the
              > > > Christian Garden of Eden Myth! It
              > > > would seem that they are laughing
              > > > at themselves and don't realize it!
              > > > How clueless! Then again, an inability
              > > > to do critical thinking and Not being
              > > > able to connect-the-dots is why they're
              > > > still ECKists.
              > > >
              > > > Prometheus
              >
            • prometheus_973
              Hello All, It seems that all religions represent the original pyramid scheme via their hierarchies. Those ECK Vahanas are sales people who have a vested
              Message 6 of 15 , Mar 6, 2010
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                Hello All,
                It seems that all religions represent
                the original pyramid scheme via
                their hierarchies. Those ECK Vahanas
                are sales people who have a vested
                interest in the company. They have
                something to gain by selling their
                products (Eckankar materials and
                memberships). Their payment is
                prestige, hope, belief, promises,
                and initiation points while Klemp
                and company acquire more money
                and influence/power over their
                subjects.

                And, it's clear that ECKists can't
                voice displeasure with the way
                things are done because that would
                be "negative."

                Besides, there are repercussions
                for voicing an honest assessment
                of those "above" them. No ECKist
                wants to be Black Listed on initiations
                or on positions and titles within the
                hierarchy. No one wants to be shunned,
                but it does happen. These are just
                part of the control and fear tactics
                used. Thus, Silence, Service and
                Surrender become the three keys
                for Klemp's Success!

                Prometheus




                prometheus wrote:

                Hi Ingrid and All,
                Yes, all religions take our money
                in one way or another. All of us pay
                for their Holy Wars that they wage
                upon the rest of us. Their members
                also pay for future promises and to
                feel good and all puffed-up, now,
                while looking down their noses at
                all of the other poor lost Souls. It's
                interesting that so many of them
                believe in the "end-of-days" propaganda/
                dogma including Eckankar (Kali Yuga)!
                Plus, there's the Garden of Eden Myth
                that Eckankar, also, subscribes to
                (see "Polarians" pg. 162, 1998 ECK Lexicon).

                Prometheus

                ctecvie wrote:

                Hi Prometheus and all,

                commenting on the last paragraph of your post:
                Religions pretend that they can give answers to
                questions that cannot be answered. We need to
                accept the fact that not everything can be explained.
                And that's where religions come in and take (our)
                money!

                Ingrid


                prometheus wrote:
                >
                > Hello All,
                > Let's summarize Paul's Initiation lies:
                >
                > 1) 2nd Initiation - by Sudar Singh
                > at "about" age 16 (1923-24).
                > Paul states that he and Kay-Dee
                > traveled from "Paris," with Sudar,
                > and stayed in Allahabad, India
                > for one year. [pgs. 40 & 45]
                >
                > 2) 3rd-7th Initiations - were given
                > to Paul at age 39 (1947) while visiting
                > Rebazar, for 6-7 months, in the Hindu
                > Kush Mountains. [pgs 70-71]
                >
                > 3) 8th-12th initiations - were given
                > to Paul by Rebazar. Paul followed RT
                > into the Hindu Kush at age 43 (1951).
                > [pg. 71] Klemp claims that this was
                > Twitchell's "second visit to India" on
                > eckankar.org
                >
                > Therefore, we have Klemp stating that
                > Twitchell lied (early on) at age 27 (1935),
                > in order to get into Who's Who. Also, PT
                > lied as to how many times he traveled
                > to India. Actually, I'm not so sure that
                > Twit ever travelled to India!
                >
                > Now, in these July, 1971, "private tapings"
                > we see that Paul (the Mahanta) is still
                > lying! And, this is just a couple of months
                > before his death on Sept. 17, 1971!
                >
                > What's it all mean? It means that Twit
                > conned people and that Klemp is still
                > conning them. It's all a Big Fat Lie!
                > But, should anyone be surprised when
                > religions lie to the stupid or to trusting,
                > gullible and loving people? Most people
                > want to believe and they want to believe
                > the best in whatever or whomever.
                > Everyone has to figure out what category
                > of delusion they fall-in. Hierarchies
                > are manmade just as religions are.
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
                >
                > prometheus wrote:
                > Hello Etznab and All,
                > "Difficulties Of Becoming The
                > Living ECK Master" are historical
                > transcriptions from private tapings
                > by Twitchell. On page 11 it states:
                >
                > "(In July 1971, Sri Paul Twitchell
                > made private tapings of his struggles
                > before and after his acceptance
                > of the Rod of ECK Power on October
                > 22, 1965... Our thanks to Patti Simpson
                > who presented these tapes to Sri
                > Darwin.)"
                >
                > On pages 45-48, and 70-71,
                > Twitchell tells his story of being
                > initiated by Rebazar, at age 39
                > in 1947, on supposedly, his FIRST
                > trip to India. Except, Paul claims,
                > at age 15, he visited SUDAR in India
                > after leaving Paris. Oops! Another
                > lie! Marman states that this was
                > Paris, Kentucky and Not France
                > as Paul would have us to believe.
                >
                > Let's also recall that Klemp states,
                > on eckankar.org, that at age 27
                > (1935) Paul was "exaggerating"
                > and "twisting facts" (lying) about
                > his "grand achievements" to get
                > into "Who's Who in Kentucky."
                > Thus, there was no trip to Paris
                > (France) nor to India at age 15
                > in 1923!
                >
                http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html
                >
                >
                >
                > Twit states:
                > "In 1947... I stayed there (India) for
                > quite sometime with him (Rebazar),
                > six to seven months being taught
                > and learning the works of ECK...
                > Now, he initiated me there." [pg.70]
                >
                > ME: Yet, Rebazar never mentioned
                > the "Mahanta" once during these
                > months!
                >
                > PT: "I had already been initiated
                > (at age 15, 1923) by Sudar Singh,
                > the same as everybody else, the
                > second initiation." [pgs. 48 & 70]
                >
                > ME: This was, also, an exaggeration
                > (lie) according to Klemp! Therefore,
                > there was No Initiation by Sudar Singh.
                > Actually, there was no Sudar. Kirpal
                > Singh was Twitchell's Master from
                > 1955-65. They even have the same
                > last name! What's this mean? Well,
                > it means that Eckankar was/is based
                > upon lie after lie! It's a fraud and so
                > is Klemp! There's no such thing as
                > a real "Mahanta." Klemp isn't even
                > as believable as the Wizard of Oz!
                >
                > ***
                > BTW- Let's remember that Klemp
                > gives Twitchell's birth year as
                > 1908 in "The Combined Shariyat,
                > Books One and Two" on the Copyright
                > Page.
                >
                > The Oct. 22 birthday is given in
                > the 1998 EK Lexicon, on page 61,
                > "ECK Spiritual New Year." Funny
                > how PT's birthday corresponds
                > to the Spiritual New Year and the
                > Passing of the Rod of ECK Power!
                > ***
                >
                > PT: "And then I got the Third and
                > Fourth, I went up through About
                > the Seventh at this particular time
                > (pg. 71)."
                >
                > ME: How does one go up to
                > "About" the Seventh Initiation?"
                > Wouldn't a person remember
                > what initiation it was if it were
                > true? This is just more proof
                > that Twit was lying once again!
                >
                > PT: "... later [1951], but not
                > on this trip, I followed him up
                > there (the Hindu Kush Mountains)
                > and I got the finish (12th) of
                > my initiations (pg. 71)."
                >
                > Apparently Rebazar never mentioned
                > the Mahanta, from 1951-1967, while
                > Twitchell was a 12th initiate and ECK
                > Master! I know this because Twitchell
                > never mentions the "Mahanta" in the
                > 1967 "The Tiger's Fang!" However, upon
                > closer inspection, the "Mahanta" was
                > never mentioned (by Twit) prior to
                > Jan. 1, 1969.
                >
                > Now, the ekplanation for this 16-18
                > year gap of knowledge (not knowing
                > about the Mahanta) is quite simple
                > right? I just can't figure out what it
                > would be! Insanity, denial, stupidity?
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
                >
                > etznab wrote:
                >
                > I agree it is most peculiar that "Mahanta" didn't
                > appear in The Tiger's Fang published 1967.
                >
                > There were other early books that didn't mention
                > it either, if I remember correctly.
                >
                >
                > prometheus wrote:
                >
                > Hello Etznab and All,
                > I started another thread for this discussion.
                > Paul never mentions the "Mahanta" in the
                > 1967 Copyright of The Tiger's Fang. It wasn't
                > until two years later (1969) that PT dreamed
                > up the Mahanta title and all of the "Puffery"
                > that goes with it. PT merely describes Rebazar
                > Tarzs, in Tiger's Fang, as a "Spiritual Traveler"
                > and "Godman." Not until Twit created the
                > Mahanta title for himself did Rebazar become
                > one too! 20/20 hindsight, with rewrites,
                > editing and omissions is how the Eckankar
                > fraud, under Klemp's reign, continues to
                > delude its followers.
                >
                > Really, one would think that when the fictitious
                > Rebazar visited Twitchell and took him on all
                > of those Inner Plane journeys and taught him
                > all of those secret teachings and when he made
                > PT the 971st LEM in 1965 that he would have
                > mentioned the "Mahanta" Consciousness at
                > one time or another! However, it wasn't for
                > Four More Years that this information (if we
                > believe the lie) becomes known to Twitchell!
                > Hmmmmmm. Now why didn't Rebz mention
                > the Mahanta Con to Twit sooner? Obviously
                > it just took Twit this amount of time, and with
                > the right circumstances, for him to figure out
                > the Mahanta Con. It is a convenient lie. Or,
                > are we being too logical I wonder? Isn't there
                > some magical ekplanation for this 4 year
                > gap, 1965-1969?
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
                > Hello Etznab,
                > It's kind of a moot point as to "when"
                > Twitchell claims to have received the
                > Fake Rod of ECK Power... it was whenever
                > he claimed (like Oct. 22,1965). Liars
                > have trouble remembering the details
                > of their lies. That's why Twit made
                > the date of the LEM lie correspond to
                > his birthday, Oct. 22. And, he officially
                > created or started the "outer church"
                > on this date. This way he'd remember
                > it! What's even funnier, and more remarkable,
                > is Paul wrote his dogma to show that
                > every LEM receives the ROD, throughout
                > history, on this date... his birthday!
                >
                > PT did promote "Flute" via installments
                > (circa 1966) where he, also, used other,
                > REAL, peoples' names and later substituted
                > these with the names of fake "EK Masters."
                > The book was Copyrighted in 1969, but
                > didn't get into print until 1970 probably
                > due to reediting. The Copyright of 1969,
                > and the First Printing date of 1970 are
                > given in my 6th, 1979 Printing of The Flute
                > of God.
                >
                > As for his lie about the Mahanta Initiation?
                > This idea had to occur just prior to Jan. 1,
                > 1969 since Twitchell didn't mention the
                > name/word "Mahanta" in the Dec. 1, 1968
                > Monthly Issue of The Wisdom Notes. Nor
                > did PT mention the "Mahanta" in any other
                > publication or Monthly Wisdom Note prior
                > to Jan. 1, 1969. This is just using the facts,
                > as well as, logic and common sense. Plus,
                > even Klemp states that Twitchell was a lying
                > in 1935, at age 27, when he was trying to
                > get into Who's Who in Kentucky. Therefore,
                > a past track record of lying has been verified
                > by Klemp.
                >
                > The Tiger's Fang was Copyrighted in 1967,
                > but let's remember that Klemp states that
                > Kirpal Singh returned the manuscript to
                > Paul circa June, 1966. Since "Mahanta" wasn't
                > mentioned in 1968 we can only assume
                > that it was not mentioned in 1967. However,
                > there was a reediting of this book, by Klemp,
                > in 1988 for a Second Printing. This is where
                > "Mahanta" had to be inserted... by Klemp!
                >
                > If one has paid attention they will see that
                > Klemp has not only given new covers to
                > Paul's older works, but has done reediting
                > as well. Just look at the differences and
                > changes that Klemp made to Paul's Eckankar
                > Dictionary! Compare HK's 1998 EK Lexicon
                > to Paul's Dictionary. Now compare Klemp's
                > current Lexicon to his 1998 Lexicon. It's
                > sad that Klemp has been reediting Twitchell's
                > works, but he can do this because Gail sold
                > the rights to Paul's works to Eckankar.
                >
                > Even though Gail got her 30 pieces of silver,
                > ($500,000) there are many H.I.s, Marman
                > included, that are still her friend. Then again,
                > these ECK H.I.s are the friend of Patti as well.
                > How's Klemp's editing and discontinuation
                > of PT's writings working out for these old -timers?
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
                > etznab wrote:
                >
                > hat was interesting what you said about
                > "Mahanta".
                >
                > Just the other day I was trying to remember
                > exactly where Paul Twitchell describes HIS
                > experience receiving the "Rod of Eck Power"
                > and becoming the Mahanta, the Living Eck
                > Master October 22nd, 1965. (was it?)
                >
                > Was that the date?
                >
                > I assumed the writing about it would have to
                > be subsequent to October 1965. So I looked
                > for books after that date.
                >
                > The Flute of God came out in installments
                > in the Orion magazine in 1966 - and Intro.
                > to Eckankar seems to be 1966, too (I don't
                > have that last book.) The Tiger's Fang came
                > out in 1967, but was reportedly written about
                > 1957 according to Doug and 1956 according
                > to Darwin Gross, I think.
                >
                > 1968 is when the Wisdom Notes come out
                > (January). MSIA developed (The first seminar
                > took place on May 4, 1968). The July W.N.
                > mentions "ECK Master", I believe, and then
                > various other forms of "Master".
                >
                > All About ECK, The Key to Eckankar and
                > In My Soul I Am Free came out in 1968.
                >
                > It was the January 1969 W.N. that mentioned
                > "Mahanta", if I remember correctly. Stranger
                > By The River, The Flute of God and Eckankar,
                > The Key to Secret Worlds came out in 1969,
                > I believe. (That would be the edited version of
                > The Flute of God).
                >
                > The Shariyats came out (or being "translated")
                > from the 1970s and I believe Paul suggested
                > he was going to explain the "Mahanta" there in
                > one of them, at least. Or talk more about the
                > "Mahanta, the Living Eck Master".
                >
                > The February 1970 Wisdom Note mentions
                > "MAHANTA - the living ECK Master" I believe.
                >
                > OK. So where in all these books since 1965
                > does Paul Twitchell write about his receiving
                > of the "R.O.E.P." from Rebazar Tarzs? Does
                > anybody remember? Maybe he talked about
                > it at a seminar and it's on tape?
                >
                > I'd like to find out when that experience was
                > mentioned and what was said about it to get
                > an idea about what "history" might exist.
                >
                > Don't mean to change the thread subject, but
                > I thought this query could be relevant to the
                > "Mahanta" topic.
                >
                > Etznab
                >
                > prometheus wrote:
                >
                > Hello All,
                > I just thought I'd point out a few thing that
                > Ford overlooked. Here's what Ford said:
                >
                > Ford: "How the Myth of the Mahanta was Fabricated
                >
                > In spite of what is now known about Twitchell's
                > condition of mythomania, Klemp continues to
                > delude himself into believing that Twitchell's
                > 1965 creation of the Mahanta myth is actually
                > true."
                >
                > ME: Actually, Twitchell created the Mahanta
                > Myth around January 1969 and not in 1965.
                > In "Paul Twitchell Presents, The Wisdom Notes,
                > January 1968-October 1971" one can clearly
                > see that Twitchell mentions the "Mahanta" for
                > the very first time in this Jan. 1, 1969 Monthly
                > "The Wisdom Notes."
                >
                > Ford: "Klemp seems oblivious to the fact that
                > Twitchell stole even the name from another
                > spiritual path. When it made its early appearance
                > in his book The Flute of God (pp. 46, 55), it
                > was merely a synonym for spirit and a state
                > of consciousness like "love" or any other thought
                > form This was easy to accept, for most people
                > believe in some universal force whether called
                > "spirit" or by some other name. Twitchell later
                > associated the word "Mahanta" with the "man"
                > and added it to his exalted title. With this verbalfusion
                > of two words, he was able to transform himself
                > into spirit itself ¾since spirit and Mahanta now
                > meant the same thing. He then diffused the word
                > "Mahanta" throughout the Eckankar teachings,
                > and reinforced the Mahanta/Spirit connection
                > by making it part of "every word, thought and
                > action" of his followers."
                >
                > ME: The "Mahanta" (Consciousness) can, also,
                > be found on page 39, as well as, pages 46 & 55
                > in Twitchell's 1969 "The Flute of God." The term
                > Mahanta was used only three times in this 1969
                > Copyright. And, the 1st printing of this book was
                > in 1970. This is more proof that Twitchell didn't
                > create this term/position for himself until 1969.
                >
                > BTW-In mid to late 1968 Twitchell felt threatened
                > by two internal conflicts. One was when 2nd
                > Initiate John-Rogers (Hinkle) left Eckankar and
                > used PT's discourses to start his own religion/path
                > (MSIA). Also, after this, Twitchell added the caution
                > that sharing one's discourses was not permitted and
                > was a violation of spiritual law among other threats.
                >
                > The second thing was that Paul began to renege
                > on his 5 year plan to step down as LEM since
                > Eckankar, now, began to do well and make money.
                > This caused many of his H.I.s (in-line to take over)
                > to become very upset. Thus, Paul had to come
                > up with a plan and a title to make himself beyond
                > reproach and regain control as the highest of
                > all Masters. Therefore, Twit created the Mahanta
                > title and definition.
                >
                > Plus, PT added two more initiations levels (14)
                > for himself. However, the "Worlds of ECK" Chart,
                > on page 232, of Klemp's 1998 ECK Lexicon shows
                > 12 Planes and Initiation Levels. The highest (12th)
                > states: "SUGMAD (God) Ocean of Love and Mercy."
                > Apparently neither Twitchell or Klemp felt the
                > need to "correct" the chart. Interesting, too, that
                > on page 9 of Klemp's 1998 ECK Lexicon the definition
                > for "ANAMI LOK" states that this is "the world
                > of the Supreme Being, the Sugmad... the word
                > is HU; the TENTH Plane; the Nameless Plane."
                > Twitchell always had trouble keeping his lies
                > straight!
                >
                > Originally, the term Mahanta meant "Monastery
                > Head." This term can be found in "The Holy Science"
                > by Swami Sri Yukteswar (1855-1936), Seventh
                > Edition 1972, Third Printing 1977, in the Introduction,
                > page vi, footnoted at the bottom. Sri Yukteswar
                > was Sri Yogananda's master. BTW- This is an
                > interesting book and I'm fairly certain that Twitchell
                > had speed read and "compiled" it too! Sri Yukteswar
                > talks about Allahabad, the Kumbha Mela, the
                > Yugas, etc., and this is a location (Allahabad)
                > that Twitchell claims that Sudar (Kirpal) Singh,
                > 970th LEM, was from.
                >
                > I do agree with what Ford has stated. I just
                > wanted to present more details than what
                > were first gathered. It's a big job digging
                > for and sorting out facts (the Truth) when
                > Twit was such a liar and Klemp is covering
                > up for him, as well as, creating his own
                > newer version of Eckankar with more lies
                > and distortions.
                >
                > There's one more thing that I wanted to
                > mention. Isn't it interesting about Beliefs.
                > Christians believe that Jesus will come
                > again in their/this lifetime, and ECKists
                > believe that they will achieve Spiritual
                > Freedom via God-Realization in this
                > lifetime. Religion is all about mass delusion!
                >
                > Okay, one more thing. Most ECKists
                > will deny this, but they share the same
                > Garden of Eden Myth with Christians!
                > Twitchell just did his usual letter/word
                > switch and made Adam into Adom and
                > Eve into Ede. Just look at the definition
                > for "Polarians" in Klemp's 1998 ECK
                > Lexicon. Yet, I've seen on HU Chat
                > where ECKists have made fun of the
                > Christian Garden of Eden Myth! It
                > would seem that they are laughing
                > at themselves and don't realize it!
                > How clueless! Then again, an inability
                > to do critical thinking and Not being
                > able to connect-the-dots is why they're
                > still ECKists.
                >
                > Prometheus
              • prometheus_973
                Twitchell s Last Mystic World Article July-August-September 1971 [Difficulties of Becoming the LEM, pages 251-254] Up until his last days Twitchell was still
                Message 7 of 15 , Mar 6, 2010
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                  Twitchell's Last Mystic World Article
                  July-August-September 1971
                  [Difficulties of Becoming the LEM,
                  pages 251-254]

                  Up until his last days Twitchell was
                  still conning people and rewriting
                  his and ECKankar's history (in third
                  person) in order to give validation
                  to his outlandish claims/lies/dogma.
                  And, for some reason people believed
                  it! However, Why don't some of these
                  same people who bought into it then,
                  don't now? Where's Klemp's Virgin
                  Birth that would qualify him as a
                  "Mahanta?" Klemp was born the
                  second child. Is Twitchell lying about
                  these details?


                  "During the early part of the seventeenth
                  century, four ECK spiritual masters
                  who serve in the spiritual hierarchy,
                  met in the ancient sacred city of Agam
                  Des in the Himalayan Mountains.

                  They were:

                  Ramaj, viceroy for Sat Nam, the
                  great deity of the fifth world,
                  commonly called the Soul Plane;

                  Rebazar Tarzs, emissary for the
                  ECK in the physical universe today;

                  Gopal Das, spiritual master at the
                  Golden Wisdom Temple on the Astral
                  Plane and

                  Yaubl Sacabi, spiritual head of
                  the ancient city of Agam Des."

                  ME: BTW- Ramaj is actually Rama.
                  And, in the Spiritual Notebook, 10th
                  printing, Twitchell calls him Ramaji
                  on page 196.

                  PT: "They met to discuss the birth
                  of the coming AVATAR for the twentieth
                  century [himself, Paul Twitchell], Peddar
                  Zaskq. Born in the Caucasian mountains
                  during the Seventeenth Century, he lived
                  and was trained to the heights of spiritual
                  perfection."

                  ME: And yet, even when he was reborn
                  as Paul Twitchell he had no knowledge
                  of the "Mahanta" Consciousness nor
                  for 18 years After his 12th Initiation,
                  by Rebazar (1951), to ECK Master status!

                  PT: "Given several years in the Art
                  of Silence and Darkness he gained
                  Enlightenment in Preparation for his
                  return to the Twentieth Century. When
                  the time came for his demise, he passed
                  away still looking the same youthful
                  appearance yet beyond the normal
                  age of man."

                  ME: Was Peddar's study in the "Art
                  of Darkness" preparation for becoming
                  a liar and deceiver and a practitioner
                  of the Black Arts as a Black Magician?
                  It seems this was a Freudian slip on
                  PT's part.

                  PT: "He was prepared for entering
                  into the world again to take up his
                  mission. The four great ECK Masters
                  met once more, but this time at the
                  Sakipura Monastery in the vast
                  mountains of the northern Himalayas.

                  This time the ancient prediction that
                  a New World Avatar would be born
                  on a great body of water, near the
                  shores where horses grazed was
                  to become true. This time Peddar
                  Zaskq was born on a Mississippi
                  river packet enroute to New Orleans.

                  The Miraculous Birth took place
                  just below the city of Natchez,
                  Mississippi near a stock farm.
                  At the time of his birth, a great
                  earthquake shook the Mississippi
                  valley, forming a vast body of
                  lakes in western Tennessee.

                  There appeared a BLUE CARNATION
                  in a vase on a night table by the
                  mother's bed."

                  ME: This Blue Carnation symbol
                  of the Mahanta Consciousness
                  was created by Twitchell after-the-
                  fact with 20/20 hindsight. This is
                  another rewrite by Twitchell. If he
                  did have the "Mahanta Consciousness"
                  then why didn't he mention it prior
                  to 1969? This 1971 pub is to rectify
                  that mistake and act as a cover-up.

                  PT: "The work of the Hierarchy
                  was completed except for the training
                  of Peddar Zaskq. It was immediately
                  arranged for him to be given a home
                  in which to be raised.

                  His Foster Parents raised him in a
                  small souther river town [Paducah,
                  Kentucky]. He adopted their name
                  and became known as Paul Twitchell
                  in the Twentieth Century."

                  ME: Isn't this a different story from
                  what Klemp has mentioned? Klemp
                  and Marman, both, have suggested
                  that Paul's father had an affair and
                  that he was allowed to take Paul and
                  raise him. Thus, the other children
                  were Paul's half-brothers and sisters
                  and his mother was his step-mother.
                  Paul told this lie in order to have a
                  virgin birth like Jesus and other
                  Avatars, and to establish the "Blue
                  Carnation" of the Mahanta connection.
                  This is, also, why Darwin stated that
                  Paul was the only Mahanta for the
                  next thousand years. DG didn't have
                  a "virgin birth" and neither did Klemp!

                  PT: "He [Paul Twitchell aka Peddar
                  Zaskq] looked and acted and was
                  raised accordingly like any American
                  child, except for his enormous knowledge
                  and ability to do Soul Travel."

                  ME: Once again, Twit is selling himself.
                  Snake oil anyone? It's "blue" too!

                  PT: "None knew much about him for
                  he kept to himself. His companion in
                  these years was his Stepsister who
                  gave him much of his knowledge on
                  Soul Travel. She acted as the instrument
                  through which the divine power flowed
                  to open his consciousness to God
                  again, and acted as his guide until
                  ECK Masters were able to take over."

                  ME: So, I wonder what initiation level
                  Paul's stepsister (Kay-Dee) was? That's
                  probably another story (lie). But, Wow!
                  Paul was really unloading a pile of B.S.
                  wasn't he! It's no wonder Klemp had Peter
                  Skelsky round up and destroy all of these
                  copies of "Difficulties of Becoming the
                  Living ECK Master." Does Marman believe
                  that the true, one and only, Mahanta
                  has to be born of a Virgin like Twitchell
                  states? Or, does Marman think Paul was
                  lying about his Virgin Birth like he did
                  with "Paris."

                  PT: "The rest of his story is told in
                  fragments of his first visit to Paris
                  to be with his stepsister, who was
                  in training to be an artist. It was here
                  that he [Paul/Peddar] first met Sudar
                  [Kirpal] Singh, an ECK Master, and
                  followed him to India with his stepsister
                  to study ECK[ankar].

                  Later as a young man, he returned
                  to India and set out to find Rebazar
                  Tarzs, the ancient Tibetan ECK Master,
                  near Darjeeling. It was here that the
                  contact was made with the great ECK
                  emissary and his training taken over
                  to prepare him for world leadership
                  in spiritual affairs. July-August-September
                  1971"

                  Prometheus


                  prometheus wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello All,
                  > Let's summarize Paul's Initiation lies:
                  >
                  > 1) 2nd Initiation - by Sudar Singh
                  > at "about" age 16 (1923-24).
                  > Paul states that he and Kay-Dee
                  > traveled from "Paris," with Sudar,
                  > and stayed in Allahabad, India
                  > for one year. [pgs. 40 & 45]
                  >
                  > 2) 3rd-7th Initiations - were given
                  > to Paul at age 39 (1947) while visiting
                  > Rebazar, for 6-7 months, in the Hindu
                  > Kush Mountains. [pgs 70-71]
                  >
                  > 3) 8th-12th initiations - were given
                  > to Paul by Rebazar. Paul followed RT
                  > into the Hindu Kush at age 43 (1951).
                  > [pg. 71] Klemp claims that this was
                  > Twitchell's "second visit to India" on
                  > eckankar.org
                  >
                  > Therefore, we have Klemp stating that
                  > Twitchell lied (early on) at age 27 (1935),
                  > in order to get into Who's Who. Also, PT
                  > lied as to how many times he traveled
                  > to India. Actually, I'm not so sure that
                  > Twit ever travelled to India!
                  >
                  > Now, in these July, 1971, "private tapings"
                  > we see that Paul (the Mahanta) is still
                  > lying! And, this is just a couple of months
                  > before his death on Sept. 17, 1971!
                  >
                  > What's it all mean? It means that Twit
                  > conned people and that Klemp is still
                  > conning them. It's all a Big Fat Lie!
                  > But, should anyone be surprised when
                  > religions lie to the stupid or to trusting,
                  > gullible and loving people? Most people
                  > want to believe and they want to believe
                  > the best in whatever or whomever.
                  > Everyone has to figure out what category
                  > of delusion they fall-in. Hierarchies
                  > are manmade just as religions are.
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                  >
                  > prometheus wrote:
                  > Hello Etznab and All,
                  > "Difficulties Of Becoming The
                  > Living ECK Master" are historical
                  > transcriptions from private tapings
                  > by Twitchell. On page 11 it states:
                  >
                  > "(In July 1971, Sri Paul Twitchell
                  > made private tapings of his struggles
                  > before and after his acceptance
                  > of the Rod of ECK Power on October
                  > 22, 1965... Our thanks to Patti Simpson
                  > who presented these tapes to Sri
                  > Darwin.)"
                  >
                  > On pages 45-48, and 70-71,
                  > Twitchell tells his story of being
                  > initiated by Rebazar, at age 39
                  > in 1947, on supposedly, his FIRST
                  > trip to India. Except, Paul claims,
                  > at age 15, he visited SUDAR in India
                  > after leaving Paris. Oops! Another
                  > lie! Marman states that this was
                  > Paris, Kentucky and Not France
                  > as Paul would have us to believe.
                  >
                  > Let's also recall that Klemp states,
                  > on eckankar.org, that at age 27
                  > (1935) Paul was "exaggerating"
                  > and "twisting facts" (lying) about
                  > his "grand achievements" to get
                  > into "Who's Who in Kentucky."
                  > Thus, there was no trip to Paris
                  > (France) nor to India at age 15
                  > in 1923!
                  >
                  http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Twit states:
                  > "In 1947... I stayed there (India) for
                  > quite sometime with him (Rebazar),
                  > six to seven months being taught
                  > and learning the works of ECK...
                  > Now, he initiated me there." [pg.70]
                  >
                  > ME: Yet, Rebazar never mentioned
                  > the "Mahanta" once during these
                  > months!
                  >
                  > PT: "I had already been initiated
                  > (at age 15, 1923) by Sudar Singh,
                  > the same as everybody else, the
                  > second initiation." [pgs. 48 & 70]
                  >
                  > ME: This was, also, an exaggeration
                  > (lie) according to Klemp! Therefore,
                  > there was No Initiation by Sudar Singh.
                  > Actually, there was no Sudar. Kirpal
                  > Singh was Twitchell's Master from
                  > 1955-65. They even have the same
                  > last name! What's this mean? Well,
                  > it means that Eckankar was/is based
                  > upon lie after lie! It's a fraud and so
                  > is Klemp! There's no such thing as
                  > a real "Mahanta." Klemp isn't even
                  > as believable as the Wizard of Oz!
                  >
                  > ***
                  > BTW- Let's remember that Klemp
                  > gives Twitchell's birth year as
                  > 1908 in "The Combined Shariyat,
                  > Books One and Two" on the Copyright
                  > Page.
                  >
                  > The Oct. 22 birthday is given in
                  > the 1998 EK Lexicon, on page 61,
                  > "ECK Spiritual New Year." Funny
                  > how PT's birthday corresponds
                  > to the Spiritual New Year and the
                  > Passing of the Rod of ECK Power!
                  > ***
                  >
                  > PT: "And then I got the Third and
                  > Fourth, I went up through About
                  > the Seventh at this particular time
                  > (pg. 71)."
                  >
                  > ME: How does one go up to
                  > "About" the Seventh Initiation?"
                  > Wouldn't a person remember
                  > what initiation it was if it were
                  > true? This is just more proof
                  > that Twit was lying once again!
                  >
                  > PT: "... later [1951], but not
                  > on this trip, I followed him up
                  > there (the Hindu Kush Mountains)
                  > and I got the finish (12th) of
                  > my initiations (pg. 71)."
                  >
                  > Apparently Rebazar never mentioned
                  > the Mahanta, from 1951-1967, while
                  > Twitchell was a 12th initiate and ECK
                  > Master! I know this because Twitchell
                  > never mentions the "Mahanta" in the
                  > 1967 "The Tiger's Fang!" However, upon
                  > closer inspection, the "Mahanta" was
                  > never mentioned (by Twit) prior to
                  > Jan. 1, 1969.
                  >
                  > Now, the ekplanation for this 16-18
                  > year gap of knowledge (not knowing
                  > about the Mahanta) is quite simple
                  > right? I just can't figure out what it
                  > would be! Insanity, denial, stupidity?
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                  >
                  > etznab wrote:
                  >
                  > I agree it is most peculiar that "Mahanta" didn't
                  > appear in The Tiger's Fang published 1967.
                  >
                  > There were other early books that didn't mention
                  > it either, if I remember correctly.
                  >
                  >
                  > prometheus wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello Etznab and All,
                  > I started another thread for this discussion.
                  > Paul never mentions the "Mahanta" in the
                  > 1967 Copyright of The Tiger's Fang. It wasn't
                  > until two years later (1969) that PT dreamed
                  > up the Mahanta title and all of the "Puffery"
                  > that goes with it. PT merely describes Rebazar
                  > Tarzs, in Tiger's Fang, as a "Spiritual Traveler"
                  > and "Godman." Not until Twit created the
                  > Mahanta title for himself did Rebazar become
                  > one too! 20/20 hindsight, with rewrites,
                  > editing and omissions is how the Eckankar
                  > fraud, under Klemp's reign, continues to
                  > delude its followers.
                  >
                  > Really, one would think that when the fictitious
                  > Rebazar visited Twitchell and took him on all
                  > of those Inner Plane journeys and taught him
                  > all of those secret teachings and when he made
                  > PT the 971st LEM in 1965 that he would have
                  > mentioned the "Mahanta" Consciousness at
                  > one time or another! However, it wasn't for
                  > Four More Years that this information (if we
                  > believe the lie) becomes known to Twitchell!
                  > Hmmmmmm. Now why didn't Rebz mention
                  > the Mahanta Con to Twit sooner? Obviously
                  > it just took Twit this amount of time, and with
                  > the right circumstances, for him to figure out
                  > the Mahanta Con. It is a convenient lie. Or,
                  > are we being too logical I wonder? Isn't there
                  > some magical ekplanation for this 4 year
                  > gap, 1965-1969?
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                  > Hello Etznab,
                  > It's kind of a moot point as to "when"
                  > Twitchell claims to have received the
                  > Fake Rod of ECK Power... it was whenever
                  > he claimed (like Oct. 22,1965). Liars
                  > have trouble remembering the details
                  > of their lies. That's why Twit made
                  > the date of the LEM lie correspond to
                  > his birthday, Oct. 22. And, he officially
                  > created or started the "outer church"
                  > on this date. This way he'd remember
                  > it! What's even funnier, and more remarkable,
                  > is Paul wrote his dogma to show that
                  > every LEM receives the ROD, throughout
                  > history, on this date... his birthday!
                  >
                  > PT did promote "Flute" via installments
                  > (circa 1966) where he, also, used other,
                  > REAL, peoples' names and later substituted
                  > these with the names of fake "EK Masters."
                  > The book was Copyrighted in 1969, but
                  > didn't get into print until 1970 probably
                  > due to reediting. The Copyright of 1969,
                  > and the First Printing date of 1970 are
                  > given in my 6th, 1979 Printing of The Flute
                  > of God.
                  >
                  > As for his lie about the Mahanta Initiation?
                  > This idea had to occur just prior to Jan. 1,
                  > 1969 since Twitchell didn't mention the
                  > name/word "Mahanta" in the Dec. 1, 1968
                  > Monthly Issue of The Wisdom Notes. Nor
                  > did PT mention the "Mahanta" in any other
                  > publication or Monthly Wisdom Note prior
                  > to Jan. 1, 1969. This is just using the facts,
                  > as well as, logic and common sense. Plus,
                  > even Klemp states that Twitchell was a lying
                  > in 1935, at age 27, when he was trying to
                  > get into Who's Who in Kentucky. Therefore,
                  > a past track record of lying has been verified
                  > by Klemp.
                  >
                  > The Tiger's Fang was Copyrighted in 1967,
                  > but let's remember that Klemp states that
                  > Kirpal Singh returned the manuscript to
                  > Paul circa June, 1966. Since "Mahanta" wasn't
                  > mentioned in 1968 we can only assume
                  > that it was not mentioned in 1967. However,
                  > there was a reediting of this book, by Klemp,
                  > in 1988 for a Second Printing. This is where
                  > "Mahanta" had to be inserted... by Klemp!
                  >
                  > If one has paid attention they will see that
                  > Klemp has not only given new covers to
                  > Paul's older works, but has done reediting
                  > as well. Just look at the differences and
                  > changes that Klemp made to Paul's Eckankar
                  > Dictionary! Compare HK's 1998 EK Lexicon
                  > to Paul's Dictionary. Now compare Klemp's
                  > current Lexicon to his 1998 Lexicon. It's
                  > sad that Klemp has been reediting Twitchell's
                  > works, but he can do this because Gail sold
                  > the rights to Paul's works to Eckankar.
                  >
                  > Even though Gail got her 30 pieces of silver,
                  > ($500,000) there are many H.I.s, Marman
                  > included, that are still her friend. Then again,
                  > these ECK H.I.s are the friend of Patti as well.
                  > How's Klemp's editing and discontinuation
                  > of PT's writings working out for these old -timers?
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                  > etznab wrote:
                  >
                  > hat was interesting what you said about
                  > "Mahanta".
                  >
                  > Just the other day I was trying to remember
                  > exactly where Paul Twitchell describes HIS
                  > experience receiving the "Rod of Eck Power"
                  > and becoming the Mahanta, the Living Eck
                  > Master October 22nd, 1965. (was it?)
                  >
                  > Was that the date?
                  >
                  > I assumed the writing about it would have to
                  > be subsequent to October 1965. So I looked
                  > for books after that date.
                  >
                  > The Flute of God came out in installments
                  > in the Orion magazine in 1966 - and Intro.
                  > to Eckankar seems to be 1966, too (I don't
                  > have that last book.) The Tiger's Fang came
                  > out in 1967, but was reportedly written about
                  > 1957 according to Doug and 1956 according
                  > to Darwin Gross, I think.
                  >
                  > 1968 is when the Wisdom Notes come out
                  > (January). MSIA developed (The first seminar
                  > took place on May 4, 1968). The July W.N.
                  > mentions "ECK Master", I believe, and then
                  > various other forms of "Master".
                  >
                  > All About ECK, The Key to Eckankar and
                  > In My Soul I Am Free came out in 1968.
                  >
                  > It was the January 1969 W.N. that mentioned
                  > "Mahanta", if I remember correctly. Stranger
                  > By The River, The Flute of God and Eckankar,
                  > The Key to Secret Worlds came out in 1969,
                  > I believe. (That would be the edited version of
                  > The Flute of God).
                  >
                  > The Shariyats came out (or being "translated")
                  > from the 1970s and I believe Paul suggested
                  > he was going to explain the "Mahanta" there in
                  > one of them, at least. Or talk more about the
                  > "Mahanta, the Living Eck Master".
                  >
                  > The February 1970 Wisdom Note mentions
                  > "MAHANTA - the living ECK Master" I believe.
                  >
                  > OK. So where in all these books since 1965
                  > does Paul Twitchell write about his receiving
                  > of the "R.O.E.P." from Rebazar Tarzs? Does
                  > anybody remember? Maybe he talked about
                  > it at a seminar and it's on tape?
                  >
                  > I'd like to find out when that experience was
                  > mentioned and what was said about it to get
                  > an idea about what "history" might exist.
                  >
                  > Don't mean to change the thread subject, but
                  > I thought this query could be relevant to the
                  > "Mahanta" topic.
                  >
                  > Etznab
                  >
                  > prometheus wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello All,
                  > I just thought I'd point out a few thing that
                  > Ford overlooked. Here's what Ford said:
                  >
                  > Ford: "How the Myth of the Mahanta was Fabricated
                  >
                  > In spite of what is now known about Twitchell's
                  > condition of mythomania, Klemp continues to
                  > delude himself into believing that Twitchell's
                  > 1965 creation of the Mahanta myth is actually
                  > true."
                  >
                  > ME: Actually, Twitchell created the Mahanta
                  > Myth around January 1969 and not in 1965.
                  > In "Paul Twitchell Presents, The Wisdom Notes,
                  > January 1968-October 1971" one can clearly
                  > see that Twitchell mentions the "Mahanta" for
                  > the very first time in this Jan. 1, 1969 Monthly
                  > "The Wisdom Notes."
                  >
                  > Ford: "Klemp seems oblivious to the fact that
                  > Twitchell stole even the name from another
                  > spiritual path. When it made its early appearance
                  > in his book The Flute of God (pp. 46, 55), it
                  > was merely a synonym for spirit and a state
                  > of consciousness like "love" or any other thought
                  > form This was easy to accept, for most people
                  > believe in some universal force whether called
                  > "spirit" or by some other name. Twitchell later
                  > associated the word "Mahanta" with the "man"
                  > and added it to his exalted title. With this verbalfusion
                  > of two words, he was able to transform himself
                  > into spirit itself ¾since spirit and Mahanta now
                  > meant the same thing. He then diffused the word
                  > "Mahanta" throughout the Eckankar teachings,
                  > and reinforced the Mahanta/Spirit connection
                  > by making it part of "every word, thought and
                  > action" of his followers."
                  >
                  > ME: The "Mahanta" (Consciousness) can, also,
                  > be found on page 39, as well as, pages 46 & 55
                  > in Twitchell's 1969 "The Flute of God." The term
                  > Mahanta was used only three times in this 1969
                  > Copyright. And, the 1st printing of this book was
                  > in 1970. This is more proof that Twitchell didn't
                  > create this term/position for himself until 1969.
                  >
                  > BTW-In mid to late 1968 Twitchell felt threatened
                  > by two internal conflicts. One was when 2nd
                  > Initiate John-Rogers (Hinkle) left Eckankar and
                  > used PT's discourses to start his own religion/path
                  > (MSIA). Also, after this, Twitchell added the caution
                  > that sharing one's discourses was not permitted and
                  > was a violation of spiritual law among other threats.
                  >
                  > The second thing was that Paul began to renege
                  > on his 5 year plan to step down as LEM since
                  > Eckankar, now, began to do well and make money.
                  > This caused many of his H.I.s (in-line to take over)
                  > to become very upset. Thus, Paul had to come
                  > up with a plan and a title to make himself beyond
                  > reproach and regain control as the highest of
                  > all Masters. Therefore, Twit created the Mahanta
                  > title and definition.
                  >
                  > Plus, PT added two more initiations levels (14)
                  > for himself. However, the "Worlds of ECK" Chart,
                  > on page 232, of Klemp's 1998 ECK Lexicon shows
                  > 12 Planes and Initiation Levels. The highest (12th)
                  > states: "SUGMAD (God) Ocean of Love and Mercy."
                  > Apparently neither Twitchell or Klemp felt the
                  > need to "correct" the chart. Interesting, too, that
                  > on page 9 of Klemp's 1998 ECK Lexicon the definition
                  > for "ANAMI LOK" states that this is "the world
                  > of the Supreme Being, the Sugmad... the word
                  > is HU; the TENTH Plane; the Nameless Plane."
                  > Twitchell always had trouble keeping his lies
                  > straight!
                  >
                  > Originally, the term Mahanta meant "Monastery
                  > Head." This term can be found in "The Holy Science"
                  > by Swami Sri Yukteswar (1855-1936), Seventh
                  > Edition 1972, Third Printing 1977, in the Introduction,
                  > page vi, footnoted at the bottom. Sri Yukteswar
                  > was Sri Yogananda's master. BTW- This is an
                  > interesting book and I'm fairly certain that Twitchell
                  > had speed read and "compiled" it too! Sri Yukteswar
                  > talks about Allahabad, the Kumbha Mela, the
                  > Yugas, etc., and this is a location (Allahabad)
                  > that Twitchell claims that Sudar (Kirpal) Singh,
                  > 970th LEM, was from.
                  >
                  > I do agree with what Ford has stated. I just
                  > wanted to present more details than what
                  > were first gathered. It's a big job digging
                  > for and sorting out facts (the Truth) when
                  > Twit was such a liar and Klemp is covering
                  > up for him, as well as, creating his own
                  > newer version of Eckankar with more lies
                  > and distortions.
                  >
                  > There's one more thing that I wanted to
                  > mention. Isn't it interesting about Beliefs.
                  > Christians believe that Jesus will come
                  > again in their/this lifetime, and ECKists
                  > believe that they will achieve Spiritual
                  > Freedom via God-Realization in this
                  > lifetime. Religion is all about mass delusion!
                  >
                  > Okay, one more thing. Most ECKists
                  > will deny this, but they share the same
                  > Garden of Eden Myth with Christians!
                  > Twitchell just did his usual letter/word
                  > switch and made Adam into Adom and
                  > Eve into Ede. Just look at the definition
                  > for "Polarians" in Klemp's 1998 ECK
                  > Lexicon. Yet, I've seen on HU Chat
                  > where ECKists have made fun of the
                  > Christian Garden of Eden Myth! It
                  > would seem that they are laughing
                  > at themselves and don't realize it!
                  > How clueless! Then again, an inability
                  > to do critical thinking and Not being
                  > able to connect-the-dots is why they're
                  > still ECKists.
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                • prometheus_973
                  Here s more to verify the Virgin Birth requirement for the Mahanta. This can be found in the Holy Books of ECKankar, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad Books One & Two
                  Message 8 of 15 , Mar 7, 2010
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                    Here's more to verify the "Virgin
                    Birth" requirement for the Mahanta.
                    This can be found in the Holy Books
                    of ECKankar, "The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad
                    Books One & Two" (copyright 2000)
                    pages 111-112. Or, check the index
                    of the Shariyat One under "Mahanta,
                    birth of."

                    BTW- The following information is
                    found in Book One of the Shariyat.

                    The Foreword, on page x, states:

                    "Book One is the first section of these
                    works, which was dictated by FUBBI
                    QUANTZ, the great ECK Master who
                    serves at the Katsupari Monastery
                    in Northern Tibet.

                    ME: Remember, too, Klemp was the
                    "SECOND" Child Born to his mother.

                    "The Mahanta is Always born near
                    or on a large body of water. His
                    Birth is Always Mysterious, and
                    men of ordinary birth Do Not Know
                    his Origin. NOR does any man know
                    who his sires might be, their true
                    names, or their true origin."

                    ME: Since we know Klemp's origins
                    (the Fremont, WI. area) and who his
                    parents were (he spoke of them in
                    his books and these were his REAL
                    parents) we can see that, already,
                    Klemp Doesn't fulfill the requirements
                    listed above.

                    "The ECK enters into the womb
                    of a VIRGIN, the Queen of Heaven,
                    who has submitted to the True Spirit
                    of the universe. The Consciousness
                    of the Mahanta State is planted as
                    the seed and carefully nurtured in
                    the womb. When the embodiment
                    of flesh is brought into this world,
                    a man-child is born."

                    As I pointed out, Klemp had an
                    older brother, Dwayne, therefore
                    HK could Not have had a "Virgin
                    Birth" and according to Fubbi, and
                    this "Holy" Shariyat, Klemp Does
                    Not meet this criteria either.

                    On the other hand, Klemp had
                    pointed out that Twitchell had
                    lied in 1935, at the age of 27,
                    to get into Who's Who. It could
                    be that Twitchell was still lying,
                    here, in 1970 when this Shariyat
                    One was Copyrighted. However,
                    this would simply point out that
                    everything (the ECK Masters, the
                    Mahanta, and the whole foundation
                    of ECKankar is built upon is lies!

                    So, ECKists either have to turn a
                    Blind-Eye to this, as they have in
                    the past, or they have to ask the
                    hard questions:

                    1) Is Twitchell, or Fubbi, lying about
                    the "Virgin Birth" Mahanta Requirements?
                    If Paul is lying then he's, also, lying
                    about Fubbi's existence!

                    OR

                    2) If Twitchell, or Fubbi, were telling
                    the Truth about the Mahanta needing
                    to be Born by a Virgin then Klemp
                    is lying about being the Mahanta!

                    Really, is Eckankar's Holy Book
                    wrong? Or, did "Fubbi" distort the
                    truth? Is Fubbi another lie of Paul's?
                    What else is a distortion? Klemp
                    can't claim that Fubbi was using
                    "artistic license" or can he? Klemp
                    seems to exaggerate and twist facts
                    as much as, or more, than Twitchell.

                    BTW-Catch-22 is double-speak
                    and means that HK can change the
                    rules, or the interpretation of the
                    rules anytime he wants. His "Con"
                    is higher than yours, thus, you wouldn't
                    understand even he he tried to explain
                    it because he has to "lower" it by
                    using 4th Mental Plane thoughts
                    and words. It's a blank check.

                    Yes, Klemp Did have the opportunity
                    to edit this "Virgin Birth" Mahanta
                    requirement out in 2000, but didn't!
                    Apparently, Klemp doesn't have the
                    need to do so. After all, ECKists will
                    believe anything he tells them.

                    Klemp did come up with the "Mahanta-
                    in-Training" excuse to explain that
                    Darwin (972th LEM) was Not a true
                    or "Full" (14th) Mahanta and, therefore,
                    it was okay for him (a 12th) and his
                    EK "Board" to depose/dispose of him.

                    However, Klemp can't explain away
                    the "Virgin Birth" scripture requirement.
                    Unless, Klemp really isn't a 14th "Full"
                    Mahanta and is still "in-training" for
                    this position for another future lifetime
                    just as Peddar Zaskq, supposedly, had
                    to do. Why has Klemp lied about being
                    a "Full" 14th Mahanta? Vanity!

                    Perhaps Klemp, too, has had the Rod
                    of ECK Power "BURN" him for not letting
                    go years earlier when he should have.
                    IMO (from an EK standpoint)-HK fell
                    from Grace circa 1990 and is, now, just
                    acting out the role with the support of
                    Joan and other cohorts at the ESC.

                    The truth is that they (Twitchell, Gross,
                    and Klemp) have all acted "AS IF" their
                    religious LEM/Mahanta roles were
                    "Spiritual." It wasn't/isn't! Eckankar is
                    just another religious con that attracts
                    those with a "New Age" belief system.
                    Even New Age people, who have turned
                    their backs on the large mass religions,
                    need something.Therefore, Eckankar
                    is an alternative for those with alternative
                    beliefs. People are social animals and
                    have a strong need to belong to some
                    group.

                    However, a religious "group consciousness,"
                    shaped by the leader, impedes one's
                    individual search and progress by lowering
                    it through conformity! It's rather ironic
                    that ECKists, and other New Agers, tend
                    to view themselves as "Non-Conformists."
                    Yet, ECKists, end up following rules, laws,
                    Zoas, Guidelines, and Scripture and anything
                    that Klemp tells them. Where is the Spiritual
                    Freedom there, or in needing to pay an
                    annual "membership" in order to receive
                    and maintain one's "spiritual" advancement
                    (initiations)? See! It all a con! But what choice
                    do ECKists have when they are too weak-
                    minded via fear tactics and brain-washing?

                    However, once they do leave Eckankar
                    they will feel a burden lifted from their
                    shoulders. The stress will leave! They
                    will now have increased moments of
                    "Contentment." And, a new Clarity of
                    mind and of Soul will be experienced
                    and revealed.

                    Prometheus


                    ***
                    Twitchell's Last Mystic World Article
                    July-August-September 1971
                    [Difficulties of Becoming the LEM,
                    pages 251-254]

                    Up until his last days Twitchell was
                    still conning people and rewriting
                    his and ECKankar's history (in third
                    person) in order to give validation
                    to his outlandish claims/lies/dogma.
                    And, for some reason people believed
                    it! However, Why don't some of these
                    same people who bought into it then,
                    don't now? Where's Klemp's Virgin
                    Birth that would qualify him as a
                    "Mahanta?" Klemp was born the
                    second child. Is Twitchell lying about
                    these details?


                    "During the early part of the seventeenth
                    century, four ECK spiritual masters
                    who serve in the spiritual hierarchy,
                    met in the ancient sacred city of Agam
                    Des in the Himalayan Mountains.

                    They were:

                    Ramaj, viceroy for Sat Nam, the
                    great deity of the fifth world,
                    commonly called the Soul Plane;

                    Rebazar Tarzs, emissary for the
                    ECK in the physical universe today;

                    Gopal Das, spiritual master at the
                    Golden Wisdom Temple on the Astral
                    Plane and

                    Yaubl Sacabi, spiritual head of
                    the ancient city of Agam Des."

                    ME: BTW- Ramaj is actually Rama.
                    And, in the Spiritual Notebook, 10th
                    printing, Twitchell calls him Ramaji
                    on page 196.

                    PT: "They met to discuss the birth
                    of the coming AVATAR for the twentieth
                    century [himself, Paul Twitchell], Peddar
                    Zaskq. Born in the Caucasian mountains
                    during the Seventeenth Century, he lived
                    and was trained to the heights of spiritual
                    perfection."

                    ME: And yet, even when he was reborn
                    as Paul Twitchell he had no knowledge
                    of the "Mahanta" Consciousness nor
                    for 18 years After his 12th Initiation,
                    by Rebazar (1951), to ECK Master status!

                    PT: "Given several years in the Art
                    of Silence and Darkness he gained
                    Enlightenment in Preparation for his
                    return to the Twentieth Century. When
                    the time came for his demise, he passed
                    away still looking the same youthful
                    appearance yet beyond the normal
                    age of man."

                    ME: Was Peddar's study in the "Art
                    of Darkness" preparation for becoming
                    a liar and deceiver and a practitioner
                    of the Black Arts as a Black Magician?
                    It seems this was a Freudian slip on
                    PT's part.

                    PT: "He was prepared for entering
                    into the world again to take up his
                    mission. The four great ECK Masters
                    met once more, but this time at the
                    Sakipura Monastery in the vast
                    mountains of the northern Himalayas.

                    This time the ancient prediction that
                    a New World Avatar would be born
                    on a great body of water, near the
                    shores where horses grazed was
                    to become true. This time Peddar
                    Zaskq was born on a Mississippi
                    river packet enroute to New Orleans.

                    The Miraculous Birth took place
                    just below the city of Natchez,
                    Mississippi near a stock farm.
                    At the time of his birth, a great
                    earthquake shook the Mississippi
                    valley, forming a vast body of
                    lakes in western Tennessee.

                    There appeared a BLUE CARNATION
                    in a vase on a night table by the
                    mother's bed."

                    ME: This Blue Carnation symbol
                    of the Mahanta Consciousness
                    was created by Twitchell after-the-
                    fact with 20/20 hindsight. This is
                    another rewrite by Twitchell. If he
                    did have the "Mahanta Consciousness"
                    then why didn't he mention it prior
                    to 1969? This 1971 pub is to rectify
                    that mistake and act as a cover-up.

                    PT: "The work of the Hierarchy
                    was completed except for the training
                    of Peddar Zaskq. It was immediately
                    arranged for him to be given a home
                    in which to be raised.

                    His Foster Parents raised him in a
                    small souther river town [Paducah,
                    Kentucky]. He adopted their name
                    and became known as Paul Twitchell
                    in the Twentieth Century."

                    ME: Isn't this a different story from
                    what Klemp has mentioned? Klemp
                    and Marman, both, have suggested
                    that Paul's father had an affair and
                    that he was allowed to take Paul and
                    raise him. Thus, the other children
                    were Paul's half-brothers and sisters
                    and his mother was his step-mother.
                    Paul told this lie in order to have a
                    virgin birth like Jesus and other
                    Avatars, and to establish the "Blue
                    Carnation" of the Mahanta connection.
                    This is, also, why Darwin stated that
                    Paul was the only Mahanta for the
                    next thousand years. DG didn't have
                    a "virgin birth" and neither did Klemp!

                    PT: "He [Paul Twitchell aka Peddar
                    Zaskq] looked and acted and was
                    raised accordingly like any American
                    child, except for his enormous knowledge
                    and ability to do Soul Travel."

                    ME: Once again, Twit is selling himself.
                    Snake oil anyone? It's "blue" too!

                    PT: "None knew much about him for
                    he kept to himself. His companion in
                    these years was his Stepsister who
                    gave him much of his knowledge on
                    Soul Travel. She acted as the instrument
                    through which the divine power flowed
                    to open his consciousness to God
                    again, and acted as his guide until
                    ECK Masters were able to take over."

                    ME: So, I wonder what initiation level
                    Paul's stepsister (Kay-Dee) was? That's
                    probably another story (lie). But, Wow!
                    Paul was really unloading a pile of B.S.
                    wasn't he! It's no wonder Klemp had Peter
                    Skelsky round up and destroy all of these
                    copies of "Difficulties of Becoming the
                    Living ECK Master." Does Marman believe
                    that the true, one and only, Mahanta
                    has to be born of a Virgin like Twitchell
                    states? Or, does Marman think Paul was
                    lying about his Virgin Birth like he did
                    with "Paris."

                    PT: "The rest of his story is told in
                    fragments of his first visit to Paris
                    to be with his stepsister, who was
                    in training to be an artist. It was here
                    that he [Paul/Peddar] first met Sudar
                    [Kirpal] Singh, an ECK Master, and
                    followed him to India with his stepsister
                    to study ECK[ankar].

                    Later as a young man, he returned
                    to India and set out to find Rebazar
                    Tarzs, the ancient Tibetan ECK Master,
                    near Darjeeling. It was here that the
                    contact was made with the great ECK
                    emissary and his training taken over
                    to prepare him for world leadership
                    in spiritual affairs. July-August-September
                    1971"

                    Prometheus


                    prometheus wrote:
                    >
                    > Hello All,
                    > Let's summarize Paul's Initiation lies
                    from Difficulties Of Becoming the LEM:
                    >
                    > 1) 2nd Initiation - by Sudar Singh
                    > at "about" age 16 (1923-24).
                    > Paul states that he and Kay-Dee
                    > traveled from "Paris," with Sudar,
                    > and stayed in Allahabad, India
                    > for one year. [pgs. 40 & 45]
                    >
                    > 2) 3rd-7th Initiations - were given
                    > to Paul at age 39 (1947) while visiting
                    > Rebazar, for 6-7 months, in the Hindu
                    > Kush Mountains. [pgs 70-71]
                    >
                    > 3) 8th-12th initiations - were given
                    > to Paul by Rebazar. Paul followed RT
                    > into the Hindu Kush at age 43 (1951).
                    > [pg. 71] Klemp claims that this was
                    > Twitchell's "second visit to India" on
                    > eckankar.org
                    >
                    > Therefore, we have Klemp stating that
                    > Twitchell lied (early on) at age 27 (1935),
                    > in order to get into Who's Who. Also, PT
                    > lied as to how many times he traveled
                    > to India. Actually, I'm not so sure that
                    > Twit ever travelled to India!
                    >
                    > Now, in these July, 1971, "private tapings"
                    > we see that Paul (the Mahanta) is still
                    > lying! And, this is just a couple of months
                    > before his death on Sept. 17, 1971!
                    >
                    > What's it all mean? It means that Twit
                    > conned people and that Klemp is still
                    > conning them. It's all a Big Fat Lie!
                    > But, should anyone be surprised when
                    > religions lie to the stupid or to trusting,
                    > gullible and loving people? Most people
                    > want to believe and they want to believe
                    > the best in whatever or whomever.
                    > Everyone has to figure out what category
                    > of delusion they fall-in. Hierarchies
                    > are manmade just as religions are.
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    >
                    >
                    > prometheus wrote:

                    > Hello Etznab and All,
                    > "Difficulties Of Becoming The
                    > Living ECK Master" are Historical
                    > Transcriptions from Private Tapings
                    > by Twitchell. On page 11 it states:
                    >
                    > "(In July 1971, Sri Paul Twitchell
                    > made private tapings of his struggles
                    > before and after his acceptance
                    > of the Rod of ECK Power on October
                    > 22, 1965... Our thanks to Patti Simpson
                    > who presented these tapes to Sri
                    > Darwin.)"
                    >
                    > On pages 45-48, and 70-71,
                    > Twitchell tells his story of being
                    > initiated by Rebazar, at age 39
                    > in 1947, on supposedly, his FIRST
                    > trip to India. Except, Paul claims,
                    > at age 15, he visited SUDAR in India
                    > after leaving Paris. Oops! Another
                    > lie! Marman states that this was
                    > Paris, Kentucky and Not France
                    > as Paul would have us to believe.
                    >
                    > Let's also recall that Klemp states,
                    > on eckankar.org, that at age 27
                    > (1935) Paul was "exaggerating"
                    > and "twisting facts" (lying) about
                    > his "grand achievements" to get
                    > into "Who's Who in Kentucky."
                    > Thus, there was no trip to Paris
                    > (France) nor to India at age 15
                    > in 1923!
                    >
                    http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Twit states:
                    > "In 1947... I stayed there (India) for
                    > quite sometime with him (Rebazar),
                    > six to seven months being taught
                    > and learning the works of ECK...
                    > Now, he initiated me there." [pg.70]
                    >
                    > ME: Yet, Rebazar never mentioned
                    > the "Mahanta" once during these
                    > months!
                    >
                    > PT: "I had already been initiated
                    > (at age 15, 1923) by Sudar Singh,
                    > the same as everybody else, the
                    > second initiation." [pgs. 48 & 70]
                    >
                    > ME: This was, also, an exaggeration
                    > (lie) according to Klemp! Therefore,
                    > there was No Initiation by Sudar Singh.
                    > Actually, there was no Sudar. Kirpal
                    > Singh was Twitchell's Master from
                    > 1955-65. They even have the same
                    > last name! What's this mean? Well,
                    > it means that Eckankar was/is based
                    > upon lie after lie! It's a fraud and so
                    > is Klemp! There's no such thing as
                    > a real "Mahanta." Klemp isn't even
                    > as believable as the Wizard of Oz!
                    >
                    > ***
                    > BTW- Let's remember that Klemp
                    > gives Twitchell's birth year as
                    > 1908 in "The Combined Shariyat,
                    > Books One and Two" on the Copyright
                    > Page.
                    >
                    > The Oct. 22 birthday is given in
                    > the 1998 EK Lexicon, on page 61,
                    > "ECK Spiritual New Year." Funny
                    > how PT's birthday corresponds
                    > to the Spiritual New Year and the
                    > Passing of the Rod of ECK Power!
                    > ***
                    >
                    > PT: "And then I got the Third and
                    > Fourth, I went up through About
                    > the Seventh at this particular time
                    > (pg. 71)."
                    >
                    > ME: How does one go up to
                    > "About" the Seventh Initiation?"
                    > Wouldn't a person remember
                    > what initiation it was if it were
                    > true? This is just more proof
                    > that Twit was lying once again!
                    >
                    > PT: "... later [1951], but not
                    > on this trip, I followed him up
                    > there (the Hindu Kush Mountains)
                    > and I got the finish (12th) of
                    > my initiations (pg. 71)."
                    >
                    > Apparently Rebazar never mentioned
                    > the Mahanta, from 1951-1967, while
                    > Twitchell was a 12th initiate and ECK
                    > Master! I know this because Twitchell
                    > never mentions the "Mahanta" in the
                    > 1967 "The Tiger's Fang!" However, upon
                    > closer inspection, the "Mahanta" was
                    > never mentioned (by Twit) prior to
                    > Jan. 1, 1969.
                    >
                    > Now, the ekplanation for this 16-18
                    > year gap of knowledge (not knowing
                    > about the Mahanta) is quite simple
                    > right? I just can't figure out what it
                    > would be! Insanity, denial, stupidity?
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    >
                    >
                    > etznab wrote:
                    >
                    > I agree it is most peculiar that "Mahanta" didn't
                    > appear in The Tiger's Fang published 1967.
                    >
                    > There were other early books that didn't mention
                    > it either, if I remember correctly.
                    >
                    >
                    > prometheus wrote:
                    >
                    > Hello Etznab and All,
                    > I started another thread for this discussion.
                    > Paul never mentions the "Mahanta" in the
                    > 1967 Copyright of The Tiger's Fang. It wasn't
                    > until two years later (1969) that PT dreamed
                    > up the Mahanta title and all of the "Puffery"
                    > that goes with it. PT merely describes Rebazar
                    > Tarzs, in Tiger's Fang, as a "Spiritual Traveler"
                    > and "Godman." Not until Twit created the
                    > Mahanta title for himself did Rebazar become
                    > one too! 20/20 hindsight, with rewrites,
                    > editing and omissions is how the Eckankar
                    > fraud, under Klemp's reign, continues to
                    > delude its followers.
                    >
                    > Really, one would think that when the fictitious
                    > Rebazar visited Twitchell and took him on all
                    > of those Inner Plane journeys and taught him
                    > all of those secret teachings and when he made
                    > PT the 971st LEM in 1965 that he would have
                    > mentioned the "Mahanta" Consciousness at
                    > one time or another! However, it wasn't for
                    > Four More Years that this information (if we
                    > believe the lie) becomes known to Twitchell!
                    > Hmmmmmm. Now why didn't Rebz mention
                    > the Mahanta Con to Twit sooner? Obviously
                    > it just took Twit this amount of time, and with
                    > the right circumstances, for him to figure out
                    > the Mahanta Con. It is a convenient lie. Or,
                    > are we being too logical I wonder? Isn't there
                    > some magical ekplanation for this 4 year
                    > gap, 1965-1969?
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    >
                    > Hello Etznab,
                    > It's kind of a moot point as to "when"
                    > Twitchell claims to have received the
                    > Fake Rod of ECK Power... it was whenever
                    > he claimed (like Oct. 22,1965). Liars
                    > have trouble remembering the details
                    > of their lies. That's why Twit made
                    > the date of the LEM lie correspond to
                    > his birthday, Oct. 22. And, he officially
                    > created or started the "outer church"
                    > on this date. This way he'd remember
                    > it! What's even funnier, and more remarkable,
                    > is Paul wrote his dogma to show that
                    > every LEM receives the ROD, throughout
                    > history, on this date... his birthday!
                    >
                    > PT did promote "Flute" via installments
                    > (circa 1966) where he, also, used other,
                    > REAL, peoples' names and later substituted
                    > these with the names of fake "EK Masters."
                    > The book was Copyrighted in 1969, but
                    > didn't get into print until 1970 probably
                    > due to reediting. The Copyright of 1969,
                    > and the First Printing date of 1970 are
                    > given in my 6th, 1979 Printing of The Flute
                    > of God.
                    >
                    > As for his lie about the Mahanta Initiation?
                    > This idea had to occur just prior to Jan. 1,
                    > 1969 since Twitchell didn't mention the
                    > name/word "Mahanta" in the Dec. 1, 1968
                    > Monthly Issue of The Wisdom Notes. Nor
                    > did PT mention the "Mahanta" in any other
                    > publication or Monthly Wisdom Note prior
                    > to Jan. 1, 1969. This is just using the facts,
                    > as well as, logic and common sense. Plus,
                    > even Klemp states that Twitchell was a lying
                    > in 1935, at age 27, when he was trying to
                    > get into Who's Who in Kentucky. Therefore,
                    > a past track record of lying has been verified
                    > by Klemp.
                    >
                    > The Tiger's Fang was Copyrighted in 1967,
                    > but let's remember that Klemp states that
                    > Kirpal Singh returned the manuscript to
                    > Paul circa June, 1966. Since "Mahanta" wasn't
                    > mentioned in 1968 we can only assume
                    > that it was not mentioned in 1967. However,
                    > there was a reediting of this book, by Klemp,
                    > in 1988 for a Second Printing. This is where
                    > "Mahanta" had to be inserted... by Klemp!
                    >
                    > If one has paid attention they will see that
                    > Klemp has not only given new covers to
                    > Paul's older works, but has done reediting
                    > as well. Just look at the differences and
                    > changes that Klemp made to Paul's Eckankar
                    > Dictionary! Compare HK's 1998 EK Lexicon
                    > to Paul's Dictionary. Now compare Klemp's
                    > current Lexicon to his 1998 Lexicon. It's
                    > sad that Klemp has been reediting Twitchell's
                    > works, but he can do this because Gail sold
                    > the rights to Paul's works to Eckankar.
                    >
                    > Even though Gail got her 30 pieces of silver,
                    > ($500,000) there are many H.I.s, Marman
                    > included, that are still her friend. Then again,
                    > these ECK H.I.s are the friend of Patti as well.
                    > How's Klemp's editing and discontinuation
                    > of PT's writings working out for these old -timers?
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    >
                    > etznab wrote:
                    >
                    > hat was interesting what you said about
                    > "Mahanta".
                    >
                    > Just the other day I was trying to remember
                    > exactly where Paul Twitchell describes HIS
                    > experience receiving the "Rod of Eck Power"
                    > and becoming the Mahanta, the Living Eck
                    > Master October 22nd, 1965. (was it?)
                    >
                    > Was that the date?
                    >
                    > I assumed the writing about it would have to
                    > be subsequent to October 1965. So I looked
                    > for books after that date.
                    >
                    > The Flute of God came out in installments
                    > in the Orion magazine in 1966 - and Intro.
                    > to Eckankar seems to be 1966, too (I don't
                    > have that last book.) The Tiger's Fang came
                    > out in 1967, but was reportedly written about
                    > 1957 according to Doug and 1956 according
                    > to Darwin Gross, I think.
                    >
                    > 1968 is when the Wisdom Notes come out
                    > (January). MSIA developed (The first seminar
                    > took place on May 4, 1968). The July W.N.
                    > mentions "ECK Master", I believe, and then
                    > various other forms of "Master".
                    >
                    > All About ECK, The Key to Eckankar and
                    > In My Soul I Am Free came out in 1968.
                    >
                    > It was the January 1969 W.N. that mentioned
                    > "Mahanta", if I remember correctly. Stranger
                    > By The River, The Flute of God and Eckankar,
                    > The Key to Secret Worlds came out in 1969,
                    > I believe. (That would be the edited version of
                    > The Flute of God).
                    >
                    > The Shariyats came out (or being "translated")
                    > from the 1970s and I believe Paul suggested
                    > he was going to explain the "Mahanta" there in
                    > one of them, at least. Or talk more about the
                    > "Mahanta, the Living Eck Master".
                    >
                    > The February 1970 Wisdom Note mentions
                    > "MAHANTA - the living ECK Master" I believe.
                    >
                    > OK. So where in all these books since 1965
                    > does Paul Twitchell write about his receiving
                    > of the "R.O.E.P." from Rebazar Tarzs? Does
                    > anybody remember? Maybe he talked about
                    > it at a seminar and it's on tape?
                    >
                    > I'd like to find out when that experience was
                    > mentioned and what was said about it to get
                    > an idea about what "history" might exist.
                    >
                    > Don't mean to change the thread subject, but
                    > I thought this query could be relevant to the
                    > "Mahanta" topic.
                    >
                    > Etznab
                    >
                    > prometheus wrote:
                    >
                    > Hello All,
                    > I just thought I'd point out a few thing that
                    > Ford overlooked. Here's what Ford said:
                    >
                    > Ford: "How the Myth of the Mahanta was Fabricated
                    >
                    > In spite of what is now known about Twitchell's
                    > condition of mythomania, Klemp continues to
                    > delude himself into believing that Twitchell's
                    > 1965 creation of the Mahanta myth is actually
                    > true."
                    >
                    > ME: Actually, Twitchell created the Mahanta
                    > Myth around January 1969 and not in 1965.
                    > In "Paul Twitchell Presents, The Wisdom Notes,
                    > January 1968-October 1971" one can clearly
                    > see that Twitchell mentions the "Mahanta" for
                    > the very first time in this Jan. 1, 1969 Monthly
                    > "The Wisdom Notes."
                    >
                    > Ford: "Klemp seems oblivious to the fact that
                    > Twitchell stole even the name from another
                    > spiritual path. When it made its early appearance
                    > in his book The Flute of God (pp. 46, 55), it
                    > was merely a synonym for spirit and a state
                    > of consciousness like "love" or any other thought
                    > form This was easy to accept, for most people
                    > believe in some universal force whether called
                    > "spirit" or by some other name. Twitchell later
                    > associated the word "Mahanta" with the "man"
                    > and added it to his exalted title. With this verbalfusion
                    > of two words, he was able to transform himself
                    > into spirit itself ¾since spirit and Mahanta now
                    > meant the same thing. He then diffused the word
                    > "Mahanta" throughout the Eckankar teachings,
                    > and reinforced the Mahanta/Spirit connection
                    > by making it part of "every word, thought and
                    > action" of his followers."
                    >
                    > ME: The "Mahanta" (Consciousness) can, also,
                    > be found on page 39, as well as, pages 46 & 55
                    > in Twitchell's 1969 "The Flute of God." The term
                    > Mahanta was used only three times in this 1969
                    > Copyright. And, the 1st printing of this book was
                    > in 1970. This is more proof that Twitchell didn't
                    > create this term/position for himself until 1969.
                    >
                    > BTW-In mid to late 1968 Twitchell felt threatened
                    > by two internal conflicts. One was when 2nd
                    > Initiate John-Rogers (Hinkle) left Eckankar and
                    > used PT's discourses to start his own religion/path
                    > (MSIA). Also, after this, Twitchell added the caution
                    > that sharing one's discourses was not permitted and
                    > was a violation of spiritual law among other threats.
                    >
                    > The second thing was that Paul began to renege
                    > on his 5 year plan to step down as LEM since
                    > Eckankar, now, began to do well and make money.
                    > This caused many of his H.I.s (in-line to take over)
                    > to become very upset. Thus, Paul had to come
                    > up with a plan and a title to make himself beyond
                    > reproach and regain control as the highest of
                    > all Masters. Therefore, Twit created the Mahanta
                    > title and definition.
                    >
                    > Plus, PT added two more initiations levels (14)
                    > for himself. However, the "Worlds of ECK" Chart,
                    > on page 232, of Klemp's 1998 ECK Lexicon shows
                    > 12 Planes and Initiation Levels. The highest (12th)
                    > states: "SUGMAD (God) Ocean of Love and Mercy."
                    > Apparently neither Twitchell or Klemp felt the
                    > need to "correct" the chart. Interesting, too, that
                    > on page 9 of Klemp's 1998 ECK Lexicon the definition
                    > for "ANAMI LOK" states that this is "the world
                    > of the Supreme Being, the Sugmad... the word
                    > is HU; the TENTH Plane; the Nameless Plane."
                    > Twitchell always had trouble keeping his lies
                    > straight!
                    >
                    > Originally, the term Mahanta meant "Monastery
                    > Head." This term can be found in "The Holy Science"
                    > by Swami Sri Yukteswar (1855-1936), Seventh
                    > Edition 1972, Third Printing 1977, in the Introduction,
                    > page vi, footnoted at the bottom. Sri Yukteswar
                    > was Sri Yogananda's master. BTW- This is an
                    > interesting book and I'm fairly certain that Twitchell
                    > had speed read and "compiled" it too! Sri Yukteswar
                    > talks about Allahabad, the Kumbha Mela, the
                    > Yugas, etc., and this is a location (Allahabad)
                    > that Twitchell claims that Sudar (Kirpal) Singh,
                    > 970th LEM, was from.
                    >
                    > I do agree with what Ford has stated. I just
                    > wanted to present more details than what
                    > were first gathered. It's a big job digging
                    > for and sorting out facts (the Truth) when
                    > Twit was such a liar and Klemp is covering
                    > up for him, as well as, creating his own
                    > newer version of Eckankar with more lies
                    > and distortions.
                    >
                    > There's one more thing that I wanted to
                    > mention. Isn't it interesting about Beliefs.
                    > Christians believe that Jesus will come
                    > again in their/this lifetime, and ECKists
                    > believe that they will achieve Spiritual
                    > Freedom via God-Realization in this
                    > lifetime. Religion is all about mass delusion!
                    >
                    > Okay, one more thing. Most ECKists
                    > will deny this, but they share the same
                    > Garden of Eden Myth with Christians!
                    > Twitchell just did his usual letter/word
                    > switch and made Adam into Adom and
                    > Eve into Ede. Just look at the definition
                    > for "Polarians" in Klemp's 1998 ECK
                    > Lexicon. Yet, I've seen on HU Chat
                    > where ECKists have made fun of the
                    > Christian Garden of Eden Myth! It
                    > would seem that they are laughing
                    > at themselves and don't realize it!
                    > How clueless! Then again, an inability
                    > to do critical thinking and Not being
                    > able to connect-the-dots is why they're
                    > still ECKists.
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                  • prometheus_973
                    Twitchell s manuscript was a work in progress with rewrites and tweaking during his time (1955-65) spent with his Spiritual Master Kirpal Singh. Klemp even
                    Message 9 of 15 , Mar 7, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Twitchell's manuscript was a work
                      in progress with rewrites and tweaking
                      during his time (1955-65) spent with
                      his Spiritual Master Kirpal Singh.

                      Klemp even mentions Kirpal on
                      Eckankar.org and his involvement
                      with The Tiger's Fang manuscript
                      not long before it was published.
                      Read the two sections titled "Struggle
                      for Mastership" and "Beginnings
                      of Eckankar" listed below.

                      http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/writings.html

                      Interesting too that Klemp mentions
                      Kirpal Singh by name 15 times during
                      this "Behind the Scenes with Paul Twitchell"
                      while only mentioning former 970th LEM
                      Sudar Singh's name 6 times! Count and see!

                      Here, in Chapter 8, Twitchell has Sugmad
                      speaking to him and Kirpal (Rebazar). This
                      is just one of the problems that Kirpal had
                      with this manuscript. Anyway, here are some
                      quotes:

                      Sugmad:

                      "You are also God! You are myself! I!

                      1) "My First Principle is that this true cosmos IS!

                      2) "My Second Principle is that there is no
                      God but me, I; not me as you know, but
                      that which is within you, the Self. Therefore
                      all is God, include the lowest of life.

                      3) "My Third Principle is that to have divinity,
                      you must dwell in the center of my Light
                      and Sound; and since Light is God, and God
                      is Light then IT is everywhere, and has No
                      Focus except in each Soul. Thus I must dwell
                      in the Light within Me!

                      4) "My Fourth Principle is that No truth is
                      greater than the Lie, and truth is never greater
                      than No truth, for the latter is the shining ideal
                      which God holds before the Soul in his true kingdom!

                      ***
                      It seems to me that Paul, at first, was wanting
                      to share some of his views and to become a
                      real writer with a book. Gail talked him into
                      making it into a religion when interest picked
                      up at his book promotions and people started
                      to look to Twit as their modern day saviour/prophet!
                      Klemp merely positioned himself at the ESC
                      and inherited the LEM title as Darwin's writer.

                      Prometheus



                      Hello Etznab and All,
                      I started another thread for this discussion.
                      Paul never mentions the "Mahanta" in the
                      1967 Copyright of The Tiger's Fang. It wasn't
                      until two years later (1969) that PT dreamed
                      up the Mahanta title and all of the "Puffery"
                      that goes with it. PT merely describes Rebazar
                      Tarzs, in Tiger's Fang, as a "Spiritual Traveler"
                      and "Godman." Not until Twit created the
                      Mahanta title for himself did Rebazar become
                      one too! 20/20 hindsight, with rewrites,
                      editing and omissions is how the Eckankar
                      fraud, under Klemp's reign, continues to
                      delude its followers.

                      Really, one would think that when the fictitious
                      Rebazar visited Twitchell and took him on all
                      of those Inner Plane journeys and taught him
                      all of those secret teachings and when he made
                      PT the 971st LEM in 1965 that he would have
                      mentioned the "Mahanta" Consciousness at
                      one time or another! However, it wasn't for
                      Four More Years that this information (if we
                      believe the lie) becomes known to Twitchell!
                      Hmmmmmm. Now why didn't Rebz mention
                      the Mahanta Con to Twit sooner? Obviously
                      it just took Twit this amount of time, and with
                      the right circumstances, for him to figure out
                      the Mahanta Con. It is a convenient lie. Or,
                      are we being too logical I wonder? Isn't there
                      some magical ekplanation for this 4 year
                      gap, 1965-1969?

                      Prometheus


                      Hello Etznab,
                      It's kind of a moot point as to "when"
                      Twitchell claims to have received the
                      Fake Rod of ECK Power... it was whenever
                      he claimed (like Oct. 22,1965). Liars
                      have trouble remembering the details
                      of their lies. That's why Twit made
                      the date of the LEM lie correspond to
                      his birthday, Oct. 22. And, he officially
                      created or started the "outer church"
                      on this date. This way he'd remember
                      it! What's even funnier, and more remarkable,
                      is Paul wrote his dogma to show that
                      every LEM receives the ROD, throughout
                      history, on this date... his birthday!

                      PT did promote "Flute" via installments
                      (circa 1966) where he, also, used other,
                      REAL, peoples' names and later substituted
                      these with the names of fake "EK Masters."
                      The book was Copyrighted in 1969, but
                      didn't get into print until 1970 probably
                      due to reediting. The Copyright of 1969,
                      and the First Printing date of 1970 are
                      given in my 6th, 1979 Printing of The Flute
                      of God.

                      As for his lie about the Mahanta Initiation?
                      This idea had to occur just prior to Jan. 1,
                      1969 since Twitchell didn't mention the
                      name/word "Mahanta" in the Dec. 1, 1968
                      Monthly Issue of The Wisdom Notes. Nor
                      did PT mention the "Mahanta" in any other
                      publication or Monthly Wisdom Note prior
                      to Jan. 1, 1969. This is just using the facts,
                      as well as, logic and common sense. Plus,
                      even Klemp states that Twitchell was a lying
                      in 1935, at age 27, when he was trying to
                      get into Who's Who in Kentucky. Therefore,
                      a past track record of lying has been verified
                      by Klemp.

                      The Tiger's Fang was Copyrighted in 1967,
                      but let's remember that Klemp states that
                      Kirpal Singh returned the manuscript to
                      Paul circa June, 1966. Since "Mahanta" wasn't
                      mentioned in 1968 we can only assume
                      that it was not mentioned in 1967. However,
                      there was a reediting of this book, by Klemp,
                      in 1988 for a Second Printing. This is where
                      "Mahanta" had to be inserted... by Klemp!

                      If one has paid attention they will see that
                      Klemp has not only given new covers to
                      Paul's older works, but has done reediting
                      as well. Just look at the differences and
                      changes that Klemp made to Paul's Eckankar
                      Dictionary! Compare HK's 1998 EK Lexicon
                      to Paul's Dictionary. Now compare Klemp's
                      current Lexicon to his 1998 Lexicon. It's
                      sad that Klemp has been reediting Twitchell's
                      works, but he can do this because Gail sold
                      the rights to Paul's works to Eckankar.

                      Even though Gail got her 30 pieces of silver,
                      ($500,000) there are many H.I.s, Marman
                      included, that are still her friend. Then again,
                      these ECK H.I.s are the friend of Patti as well.
                      How's Klemp's editing and discontinuation
                      of PT's writings working out for these old -timers?

                      Prometheus




                      etznab wrote:

                      hat was interesting what you said about
                      "Mahanta".

                      Just the other day I was trying to remember
                      exactly where Paul Twitchell describes HIS
                      experience receiving the "Rod of Eck Power"
                      and becoming the Mahanta, the Living Eck
                      Master October 22nd, 1965. (was it?)

                      Was that the date?

                      I assumed the writing about it would have to
                      be subsequent to October 1965. So I looked
                      for books after that date.

                      The Flute of God came out in installments
                      in the Orion magazine in 1966 - and Intro.
                      to Eckankar seems to be 1966, too (I don't
                      have that last book.) The Tiger's Fang came
                      out in 1967, but was reportedly written about
                      1957 according to Doug and 1956 according
                      to Darwin Gross, I think.

                      1968 is when the Wisdom Notes come out
                      (January). MSIA developed (The first seminar
                      took place on May 4, 1968). The July W.N.
                      mentions "ECK Master", I believe, and then
                      various other forms of "Master".

                      All About ECK, The Key to Eckankar and
                      In My Soul I Am Free came out in 1968.

                      It was the January 1969 W.N. that mentioned
                      "Mahanta", if I remember correctly. Stranger
                      By The River, The Flute of God and Eckankar,
                      The Key to Secret Worlds came out in 1969,
                      I believe. (That would be the edited version of
                      The Flute of God).

                      The Shariyats came out (or being "translated")
                      from the 1970s and I believe Paul suggested
                      he was going to explain the "Mahanta" there in
                      one of them, at least. Or talk more about the
                      "Mahanta, the Living Eck Master".

                      The February 1970 Wisdom Note mentions
                      "MAHANTA - the living ECK Master" I believe.

                      OK. So where in all these books since 1965
                      does Paul Twitchell write about his receiving
                      of the "R.O.E.P." from Rebazar Tarzs? Does
                      anybody remember? Maybe he talked about
                      it at a seminar and it's on tape?

                      I'd like to find out when that experience was
                      mentioned and what was said about it to get
                      an idea about what "history" might exist.

                      Don't mean to change the thread subject, but
                      I thought this query could be relevant to the
                      "Mahanta" topic.

                      Etznab

                      prometheus wrote:

                      Hello All,
                      I just thought I'd point out a few thing that
                      Ford overlooked. Here's what Ford said:

                      Ford: "How the Myth of the Mahanta was Fabricated

                      In spite of what is now known about Twitchell's
                      condition of mythomania, Klemp continues to
                      delude himself into believing that Twitchell's
                      1965 creation of the Mahanta myth is actually
                      true."

                      ME: Actually, Twitchell created the Mahanta
                      Myth around January 1969 and not in 1965.
                      In "Paul Twitchell Presents, The Wisdom Notes,
                      January 1968-October 1971" one can clearly
                      see that Twitchell mentions the "Mahanta" for
                      the very first time in this Jan. 1, 1969 Monthly
                      "The Wisdom Notes."

                      Ford: "Klemp seems oblivious to the fact that
                      Twitchell stole even the name from another
                      spiritual path. When it made its early appearance
                      in his book The Flute of God (pp. 46, 55), it
                      was merely a synonym for spirit and a state
                      of consciousness like "love" or any other thought
                      form This was easy to accept, for most people
                      believe in some universal force whether called
                      "spirit" or by some other name. Twitchell later
                      associated the word "Mahanta" with the "man"
                      and added it to his exalted title. With this verbalfusion
                      of two words, he was able to transform himself
                      into spirit itself ¾since spirit and Mahanta now
                      meant the same thing. He then diffused the word
                      "Mahanta" throughout the Eckankar teachings,
                      and reinforced the Mahanta/Spirit connection
                      by making it part of "every word, thought and
                      action" of his followers."

                      ME: The "Mahanta" (Consciousness) can, also,
                      be found on page 39, as well as, pages 46 & 55
                      in Twitchell's 1969 "The Flute of God." The term
                      Mahanta was used only three times in this 1969
                      Copyright. And, the 1st printing of this book was
                      in 1970. This is more proof that Twitchell didn't
                      create this term/position for himself until 1969.

                      BTW-In mid to late 1968 Twitchell felt threatened
                      by two internal conflicts. One was when 2nd
                      Initiate John-Rogers (Hinkle) left Eckankar and
                      used PT's discourses to start his own religion/path
                      (MSIA). Also, after this, Twitchell added the caution
                      that sharing one's discourses was not permitted and
                      was a violation of spiritual law among other threats.

                      The second thing was that Paul began to renege
                      on his 5 year plan to step down as LEM since
                      Eckankar, now, began to do well and make money.
                      This caused many of his H.I.s (in-line to take over)
                      to become very upset. Thus, Paul had to come
                      up with a plan and a title to make himself beyond
                      reproach and regain control as the highest of
                      all Masters. Therefore, Twit created the Mahanta
                      title and definition.

                      Plus, PT added two more initiations levels (14)
                      for himself. However, the "Worlds of ECK" Chart,
                      on page 232, of Klemp's 1998 ECK Lexicon shows
                      12 Planes and Initiation Levels. The highest (12th)
                      states: "SUGMAD (God) Ocean of Love and Mercy."
                      Apparently neither Twitchell or Klemp felt the
                      need to "correct" the chart. Interesting, too, that
                      on page 9 of Klemp's 1998 ECK Lexicon the definition
                      for "ANAMI LOK" states that this is "the world
                      of the Supreme Being, the Sugmad... the word
                      is HU; the TENTH Plane; the Nameless Plane."
                      Twitchell always had trouble keeping his lies
                      straight!

                      Originally, the term Mahanta meant "Monastery
                      Head." This term can be found in "The Holy Science"
                      by Swami Sri Yukteswar (1855-1936), Seventh
                      Edition 1972, Third Printing 1977, in the Introduction,
                      page vi, footnoted at the bottom. Sri Yukteswar
                      was Sri Yogananda's master. BTW- This is an
                      interesting book and I'm fairly certain that Twitchell
                      had speed read and "compiled" it too! Sri Yukteswar
                      talks about Allahabad, the Kumbha Mela, the
                      Yugas, etc., and this is a location (Allahabad)
                      that Twitchell claims that Sudar (Kirpal) Singh,
                      970th LEM, was from.

                      I do agree with what Ford has stated. I just
                      wanted to present more details than what
                      were first gathered. It's a big job digging
                      for and sorting out facts (the Truth) when
                      Twit was such a liar and Klemp is covering
                      up for him, as well as, creating his own
                      newer version of Eckankar with more lies
                      and distortions.

                      There's one more thing that I wanted to
                      mention. Isn't it interesting about Beliefs.
                      Christians believe that Jesus will come
                      again in their/this lifetime, and ECKists
                      believe that they will achieve Spiritual
                      Freedom via God-Realization in this
                      lifetime. Religion is all about mass delusion!

                      Okay, one more thing. Most ECKists
                      will deny this, but they share the same
                      Garden of Eden Myth with Christians!
                      Twitchell just did his usual letter/word
                      switch and made Adam into Adom and
                      Eve into Ede. Just look at the definition
                      for "Polarians" in Klemp's 1998 ECK
                      Lexicon. Yet, I've seen on HU Chat
                      where ECKists have made fun of the
                      Christian Garden of Eden Myth! It
                      would seem that they are laughing
                      at themselves and don't realize it!
                      How clueless! Then again, an inability
                      to do critical thinking and Not being
                      able to connect-the-dots is why they're
                      still ECKists.

                      Prometheus
                    • prometheus_973
                      Let s take another look at The Tiger s Fang which Eckankar continues to sell. In Chapter 8 the Four Principles of Sugmad were given to Paul and Rebazar
                      Message 10 of 15 , Mar 9, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Let's take another look at "The
                        Tiger's Fang" which Eckankar
                        continues to sell.

                        In Chapter 8 the Four Principles
                        of Sugmad were given to Paul
                        and Rebazar (Kirpal Singh) by
                        Sugmad himself. Here's number Four:

                        4) "My Fourth Principle is that No truth
                        is greater than the Lie,

                        and truth is Never Greater than No truth,

                        for the latter [no truth, the lie] is the
                        shining ideal which God holds before
                        the Soul in his true kingdom!"

                        ME: So, Twit/Suggie is saying that
                        "the Lie" (his no truth) is greater than
                        the truth.

                        And, "the Lie" (no truth) is greater than truth!

                        However, he's saying that the latter (no truth)
                        is the "shining ideal" - the Perfect Lie!

                        Maybe the perfect lie is the shining ideal
                        for a conman! Is this a Freudian slip by
                        Twitchell? After all, Twitchell lied about
                        everything in order to create Eckankar.

                        When one looks at Twit's track record
                        you can see that he's been lying, plagiarizing,
                        and distorting the truth by "exaggerating,"
                        and "twisting facts" for most of his life.
                        At age 27 (1935) he was lying on a grand
                        scale to get into Who's Who in Kentucky,
                        and Klemp points that out! Paul lied about
                        his age in order to attract Gail who was
                        33 years younger, thus, everything PT wrote
                        about age not mattering, Soul is ageless,
                        or about one's right to privacy and that the
                        government didn't need to know this info
                        (birth records) were used to cover-up and
                        distract people.

                        I wonder what Gail and Patti thought
                        about Paul's "Virgin Birth" and "Mahanta"
                        story? They both went along with it didn't
                        they! As I pointed out, just look in the
                        index of the Shariyat One for, "Mahanta,
                        birth of."

                        Plus, let's not forget that trip to "Paris"
                        where Paul (at age 15) stayed with his
                        "step-sister" Kay-Dee and then met
                        Sudar Singh and traveled to India with
                        him where they, supposedly, stayed for
                        one year! Paul claimed to have gotten
                        the Second Initiation from Sudar while
                        there.

                        Marman has pointed out that this was
                        Paris, Kentucky and Not Paris, France.
                        Therefore, Paul and Kay-Dee could not
                        have met Sudar Singh while there nor
                        traveled to India. Thus, Paul never got
                        the Second Initiation from Sudar as
                        he claimed!

                        Therefore, later, Sudar couldn't have
                        handed Paul off to Rebazar where PT,
                        supposedly, received his 3rd-7th
                        initiations! Then, on his "second trip,"
                        Paul claims to have received the 8th-
                        12th from Rebazar. None of it happened
                        since Sudar and Rebazar were fictitious
                        characters... like in a novel! This is
                        just one more reason why the "Difficulties
                        of Becoming the LEM" (1971 tape
                        transcriptions) was bought up and
                        destroyed.

                        So, I wonder why Marman hasn't
                        pieced the puzzel together by now,
                        or has he? Is Marman covering-up
                        for Klemp? After all, if Twitchell never
                        met Sudar in "Paris, France" then he
                        didn't travel with him to India and
                        didn't get the 2nd Initiation. Thus,
                        PT didn't get handed over to Rebazar
                        and never received the 12th Initiation
                        and never became the 971st LEM/Mahanta!

                        Therefore, Darwin's Initiations came
                        from a poser, an impostor, with No
                        Initiations coming from a "lineage
                        of ECK Masters!" Thus, Klemp is a
                        poser too! Those initiations Darwin
                        gave Klemp are invalid. Rebazar does
                        Not exist except in people's imaginations.
                        It's all fabricated, it's a lie and Klemp,
                        with Marman's help, is covering it up
                        too!

                        However, most religions are built
                        upon lies and myth (distortions of
                        fact and unscientific explanations
                        of nature). Religions rely upon giving
                        "spiritual answers" to questions about
                        creation and life and death and the
                        beyond. They give hope of another
                        life after death, but there's a catch!

                        One has to believe in their stories
                        and follow their rules, laws, and
                        guidelines and one has to bow down
                        to the (RESA) Hierarchy. One has to
                        hang onto and worship every word
                        spoken by their God's representative
                        on earth... the Godman (Klemp).

                        I guess that HK rationalizes his
                        lies by thinking that he's providing
                        a service to lost Souls. If it wasn't
                        for Eckankar these New Agers wouldn't
                        have anything to believe in to give
                        them hope.

                        On the other hand, if it wasn't
                        for Twitchell's Eckankar scam
                        Klemp wouldn't have had
                        such a good paying job with all
                        of those perks. It's hard to say
                        what he would be doing or where
                        he'd be living if it wasn't for being
                        promoted to LEM by Darwin. Chances
                        are he'd still be a 7th, or maybe an
                        8th initiate, and working at the ESC.
                        He'd be writing EK brochures or books
                        like Phil Morimitsu once wrote.

                        BTW-What ever happened to those
                        books? Klemp doesn't like the competition
                        does he!

                        prometheus



                        ***********************************
                        Twitchell's manuscript was a work
                        in progress with rewrites and tweaking
                        during his time (1955-65) spent with
                        his Spiritual Master Kirpal Singh.

                        Klemp even mentions Kirpal on
                        Eckankar.org and his involvement
                        with The Tiger's Fang manuscript
                        not long before it was published.
                        Read the two sections titled "Struggle
                        for Mastership" and "Beginnings
                        of Eckankar" listed below.

                        http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/writings.html

                        Interesting too that Klemp mentions
                        Kirpal Singh by name 15 times during
                        this "Behind the Scenes with Paul Twitchell"
                        while only mentioning former 970th LEM
                        Sudar Singh's name 6 times! Count and see!

                        Here, in Chapter 8, Twitchell has Sugmad
                        speaking to him and Kirpal (Rebazar). This
                        is just one of the problems that Kirpal had
                        with this manuscript. Anyway, here are some
                        quotes:

                        Sugmad:

                        "You are also God! You are myself! I!

                        1) "My First Principle is that this true cosmos IS!

                        2) "My Second Principle is that there is no
                        God but me, I; not me as you know, but
                        that which is within you, the Self. Therefore
                        all is God, include the lowest of life.

                        3) "My Third Principle is that to have divinity,
                        you must dwell in the center of my Light
                        and Sound; and since Light is God, and God
                        is Light then IT is everywhere, and has No
                        Focus except in each Soul. Thus I must dwell
                        in the Light within Me!

                        4) "My Fourth Principle is that No truth is
                        greater than the Lie, and truth is never greater
                        than No truth, for the latter is the shining ideal
                        which God holds before the Soul in his true kingdom!

                        ***
                        It seems to me that Paul, at first, was wanting
                        to share some of his views and to become a
                        real writer with a book. Gail talked him into
                        making it into a religion when interest picked
                        up at his book promotions and people started
                        to look to Twit as their modern day saviour/prophet!
                        Klemp merely positioned himself at the ESC
                        and inherited the LEM title as Darwin's writer.

                        Prometheus



                        Hello Etznab and All,
                        I started another thread for this discussion.
                        Paul never mentions the "Mahanta" in the
                        1967 Copyright of The Tiger's Fang. It wasn't
                        until two years later (1969) that PT dreamed
                        up the Mahanta title and all of the "Puffery"
                        that goes with it. PT merely describes Rebazar
                        Tarzs, in Tiger's Fang, as a "Spiritual Traveler"
                        and "Godman." Not until Twit created the
                        Mahanta title for himself did Rebazar become
                        one too! 20/20 hindsight, with rewrites,
                        editing and omissions is how the Eckankar
                        fraud, under Klemp's reign, continues to
                        delude its followers.

                        Really, one would think that when the fictitious
                        Rebazar visited Twitchell and took him on all
                        of those Inner Plane journeys and taught him
                        all of those secret teachings and when he made
                        PT the 971st LEM in 1965 that he would have
                        mentioned the "Mahanta" Consciousness at
                        one time or another! However, it wasn't for
                        Four More Years that this information (if we
                        believe the lie) becomes known to Twitchell!
                        Hmmmmmm. Now why didn't Rebz mention
                        the Mahanta Con to Twit sooner? Obviously
                        it just took Twit this amount of time, and with
                        the right circumstances, for him to figure out
                        the Mahanta Con. It is a convenient lie. Or,
                        are we being too logical I wonder? Isn't there
                        some magical ekplanation for this 4 year
                        gap, 1965-1969?

                        Prometheus


                        Hello Etznab,
                        It's kind of a moot point as to "when"
                        Twitchell claims to have received the
                        Fake Rod of ECK Power... it was whenever
                        he claimed (like Oct. 22,1965). Liars
                        have trouble remembering the details
                        of their lies. That's why Twit made
                        the date of the LEM lie correspond to
                        his birthday, Oct. 22. And, he officially
                        created or started the "outer church"
                        on this date. This way he'd remember
                        it! What's even funnier, and more remarkable,
                        is Paul wrote his dogma to show that
                        every LEM receives the ROD, throughout
                        history, on this date... his birthday!

                        PT did promote "Flute" via installments
                        (circa 1966) where he, also, used other,
                        REAL, peoples' names and later substituted
                        these with the names of fake "EK Masters."
                        The book was Copyrighted in 1969, but
                        didn't get into print until 1970 probably
                        due to reediting. The Copyright of 1969,
                        and the First Printing date of 1970 are
                        given in my 6th, 1979 Printing of The Flute
                        of God.

                        As for his lie about the Mahanta Initiation?
                        This idea had to occur just prior to Jan. 1,
                        1969 since Twitchell didn't mention the
                        name/word "Mahanta" in the Dec. 1, 1968
                        Monthly Issue of The Wisdom Notes. Nor
                        did PT mention the "Mahanta" in any other
                        publication or Monthly Wisdom Note prior
                        to Jan. 1, 1969. This is just using the facts,
                        as well as, logic and common sense. Plus,
                        even Klemp states that Twitchell was a lying
                        in 1935, at age 27, when he was trying to
                        get into Who's Who in Kentucky. Therefore,
                        a past track record of lying has been verified
                        by Klemp.

                        The Tiger's Fang was Copyrighted in 1967,
                        but let's remember that Klemp states that
                        Kirpal Singh returned the manuscript to
                        Paul circa June, 1966. Since "Mahanta" wasn't
                        mentioned in 1968 we can only assume
                        that it was not mentioned in 1967. However,
                        there was a reediting of this book, by Klemp,
                        in 1988 for a Second Printing. This is where
                        "Mahanta" had to be inserted... by Klemp!

                        If one has paid attention they will see that
                        Klemp has not only given new covers to
                        Paul's older works, but has done reediting
                        as well. Just look at the differences and
                        changes that Klemp made to Paul's Eckankar
                        Dictionary! Compare HK's 1998 EK Lexicon
                        to Paul's Dictionary. Now compare Klemp's
                        current Lexicon to his 1998 Lexicon. It's
                        sad that Klemp has been reediting Twitchell's
                        works, but he can do this because Gail sold
                        the rights to Paul's works to Eckankar.

                        Even though Gail got her 30 pieces of silver,
                        ($500,000) there are many H.I.s, Marman
                        included, that are still her friend. Then again,
                        these ECK H.I.s are the friend of Patti as well.
                        How's Klemp's editing and discontinuation
                        of PT's writings working out for these old -timers?

                        Prometheus




                        etznab wrote:

                        hat was interesting what you said about
                        "Mahanta".

                        Just the other day I was trying to remember
                        exactly where Paul Twitchell describes HIS
                        experience receiving the "Rod of Eck Power"
                        and becoming the Mahanta, the Living Eck
                        Master October 22nd, 1965. (was it?)

                        Was that the date?

                        I assumed the writing about it would have to
                        be subsequent to October 1965. So I looked
                        for books after that date.

                        The Flute of God came out in installments
                        in the Orion magazine in 1966 - and Intro.
                        to Eckankar seems to be 1966, too (I don't
                        have that last book.) The Tiger's Fang came
                        out in 1967, but was reportedly written about
                        1957 according to Doug and 1956 according
                        to Darwin Gross, I think.

                        1968 is when the Wisdom Notes come out
                        (January). MSIA developed (The first seminar
                        took place on May 4, 1968). The July W.N.
                        mentions "ECK Master", I believe, and then
                        various other forms of "Master".

                        All About ECK, The Key to Eckankar and
                        In My Soul I Am Free came out in 1968.

                        It was the January 1969 W.N. that mentioned
                        "Mahanta", if I remember correctly. Stranger
                        By The River, The Flute of God and Eckankar,
                        The Key to Secret Worlds came out in 1969,
                        I believe. (That would be the edited version of
                        The Flute of God).

                        The Shariyats came out (or being "translated")
                        from the 1970s and I believe Paul suggested
                        he was going to explain the "Mahanta" there in
                        one of them, at least. Or talk more about the
                        "Mahanta, the Living Eck Master".

                        The February 1970 Wisdom Note mentions
                        "MAHANTA - the living ECK Master" I believe.

                        OK. So where in all these books since 1965
                        does Paul Twitchell write about his receiving
                        of the "R.O.E.P." from Rebazar Tarzs? Does
                        anybody remember? Maybe he talked about
                        it at a seminar and it's on tape?

                        I'd like to find out when that experience was
                        mentioned and what was said about it to get
                        an idea about what "history" might exist.

                        Don't mean to change the thread subject, but
                        I thought this query could be relevant to the
                        "Mahanta" topic.

                        Etznab

                        prometheus wrote:

                        Hello All,
                        I just thought I'd point out a few thing that
                        Ford overlooked. Here's what Ford said:

                        Ford: "How the Myth of the Mahanta was Fabricated

                        In spite of what is now known about Twitchell's
                        condition of mythomania, Klemp continues to
                        delude himself into believing that Twitchell's
                        1965 creation of the Mahanta myth is actually
                        true."

                        ME: Actually, Twitchell created the Mahanta
                        Myth around January 1969 and not in 1965.
                        In "Paul Twitchell Presents, The Wisdom Notes,
                        January 1968-October 1971" one can clearly
                        see that Twitchell mentions the "Mahanta" for
                        the very first time in this Jan. 1, 1969 Monthly
                        "The Wisdom Notes."

                        Ford: "Klemp seems oblivious to the fact that
                        Twitchell stole even the name from another
                        spiritual path. When it made its early appearance
                        in his book The Flute of God (pp. 46, 55), it
                        was merely a synonym for spirit and a state
                        of consciousness like "love" or any other thought
                        form This was easy to accept, for most people
                        believe in some universal force whether called
                        "spirit" or by some other name. Twitchell later
                        associated the word "Mahanta" with the "man"
                        and added it to his exalted title. With this verbalfusion
                        of two words, he was able to transform himself
                        into spirit itself ¾since spirit and Mahanta now
                        meant the same thing. He then diffused the word
                        "Mahanta" throughout the Eckankar teachings,
                        and reinforced the Mahanta/Spirit connection
                        by making it part of "every word, thought and
                        action" of his followers."

                        ME: The "Mahanta" (Consciousness) can, also,
                        be found on page 39, as well as, pages 46 & 55
                        in Twitchell's 1969 "The Flute of God." The term
                        Mahanta was used only three times in this 1969
                        Copyright. And, the 1st printing of this book was
                        in 1970. This is more proof that Twitchell didn't
                        create this term/position for himself until 1969.

                        BTW-In mid to late 1968 Twitchell felt threatened
                        by two internal conflicts. One was when 2nd
                        Initiate John-Rogers (Hinkle) left Eckankar and
                        used PT's discourses to start his own religion/path
                        (MSIA). Also, after this, Twitchell added the caution
                        that sharing one's discourses was not permitted and
                        was a violation of spiritual law among other threats.

                        The second thing was that Paul began to renege
                        on his 5 year plan to step down as LEM since
                        Eckankar, now, began to do well and make money.
                        This caused many of his H.I.s (in-line to take over)
                        to become very upset. Thus, Paul had to come
                        up with a plan and a title to make himself beyond
                        reproach and regain control as the highest of
                        all Masters. Therefore, Twit created the Mahanta
                        title and definition.

                        Plus, PT added two more initiations levels (14)
                        for himself. However, the "Worlds of ECK" Chart,
                        on page 232, of Klemp's 1998 ECK Lexicon shows
                        12 Planes and Initiation Levels. The highest (12th)
                        states: "SUGMAD (God) Ocean of Love and Mercy."
                        Apparently neither Twitchell or Klemp felt the
                        need to "correct" the chart. Interesting, too, that
                        on page 9 of Klemp's 1998 ECK Lexicon the definition
                        for "ANAMI LOK" states that this is "the world
                        of the Supreme Being, the Sugmad... the word
                        is HU; the TENTH Plane; the Nameless Plane."
                        Twitchell always had trouble keeping his lies
                        straight!

                        Originally, the term Mahanta meant "Monastery
                        Head." This term can be found in "The Holy Science"
                        by Swami Sri Yukteswar (1855-1936), Seventh
                        Edition 1972, Third Printing 1977, in the Introduction,
                        page vi, footnoted at the bottom. Sri Yukteswar
                        was Sri Yogananda's master. BTW- This is an
                        interesting book and I'm fairly certain that Twitchell
                        had speed read and "compiled" it too! Sri Yukteswar
                        talks about Allahabad, the Kumbha Mela, the
                        Yugas, etc., and this is a location (Allahabad)
                        that Twitchell claims that Sudar (Kirpal) Singh,
                        970th LEM, was from.

                        I do agree with what Ford has stated. I just
                        wanted to present more details than what
                        were first gathered. It's a big job digging
                        for and sorting out facts (the Truth) when
                        Twit was such a liar and Klemp is covering
                        up for him, as well as, creating his own
                        newer version of Eckankar with more lies
                        and distortions.

                        There's one more thing that I wanted to
                        mention. Isn't it interesting about Beliefs.
                        Christians believe that Jesus will come
                        again in their/this lifetime, and ECKists
                        believe that they will achieve Spiritual
                        Freedom via God-Realization in this
                        lifetime. Religion is all about mass delusion!


                        Okay, one more thing. Most ECKists
                        will deny this, but they share the same
                        Garden of Eden Myth with Christians!
                        Twitchell just did his usual letter/word
                        switch and made Adam into Adom and
                        Eve into Ede. Just look at the definition
                        for "Polarians" in Klemp's 1998 ECK
                        Lexicon. Yet, I've seen on HU Chat
                        where ECKists have made fun of the
                        Christian Garden of Eden Myth! It
                        would seem that they are laughing
                        at themselves and don't realize it!
                        How clueless! Then again, an inability
                        to do critical thinking and Not being
                        able to connect-the-dots is why they're
                        still ECKists.

                        Prometheus
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