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Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: "What Klemp says" versus "What really happens in Eckankar"

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  • etznab@aol.com
    Thanks Mish. I don t believe I have that book. Will have to look it up though. Etznab ... From: mishmisha9 To:
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 20 7:13 AM
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      Thanks Mish. I don't believe I have that book.
      Will have to look it up though.

      Etznab

      -----Original Message-----
      From: mishmisha9 <mishmisha9@...>
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thu, Feb 18, 2010 6:49 pm
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: "What Klemp says" versus
      "What really happens in Eckankar"

       
      Etznab, you can find the quote here:

      Harold Klemp, How to Survive Spiritually in Our Times, pp. 164–65

      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
      >
      > "Even more, it's about walking YOUR path to God.
      > Because your path is not my path. And my path is
      > not yours."
      >
      > JJ,
      >
      > I've been looking for "that quote" for a long time!
      > Thanks for mentioning it.
      >
      > Do you know what seminar that was mentioned
      > at? What year? Or, what transcripts book has it?
      >
      > I remember a quote similar to that, and where it
      > said something like: My Eckankar might not be
      > the same as your Eckankar. Your Eckankar not
      > the same as my Eckankar. And that's OK.
      >
      > The exact words I can't remember, but something
      > like that was mentioned at a WWS.
      >
      > Now I'm thinking that quote you illustrated is the
      > one I've been looking for. I'm not sure though.
      >
      > Etznab
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: jonathanjohns96 <jonathanjohns96@...>
      > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Wed, Feb 17, 2010 11:32 pm
      > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: "What Klemp says" versus
      > "What really happens in Eckankar"
      >
      >  
      > All,
      >
      > Klemp "Even more, it's about walking YOUR path to God. Because
      your
      > path is not my path. And my path is not yours."
      >
      > I still say that the words here are OK. It's great, isn't it? Yes,
      > until you actually join Eckankar and find out that this is not
      what
      > really happens.
      >
      > If people still don't understand what I am saying, then I just
      give up.
      >
      > Jonathan
      >
      > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
      "jonathanjohns96"
      > jonathanjohns96@ wrote:
      > >
      > > All,
      > >
      > > I am continuing the discussion which occurred in the
      following
      > thread:
      > >
      > > Prometheus:
      > >
      >
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/5210
      > >
      > > then my follow-up:
      > >
      >
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/5211
      > >
      > > In that thread, I got into somewhat of a disagreement with
      > Prometheus because I said that I had no problem with what Klemp
      said in
      > the following video. I don't want people to get triggered by
      watching
      > Klemp so I will summarize the first part of the video.
      > >
      > > "ECKANKAR Religion: What's It Really About?"
      > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fISUxkDbW-Q
      > >
      > > HK "And this is what the path of Eck is all about. Walking
      the
      > path to God. Even more, it's about walking YOUR path to God.
      Because
      > your path is not my path. And my path is not yours. But that's OK."
      > >
      > > What I said about Klemps words in this video was "I like what
      he
      > said. There's nothing wrong with it." I guess what I should have
      said
      > was "On the surface of things, Klemp's words seemed perfectly OK
      to
      > me." Also, no matter what I said or meant I didn't mean it as an
      > endorsement of Eckankar.
      > >
      > > Promethus pointed out, what Klemp says and what really
      happens in
      > a person's experience in Eckankar are two different things:
      > >
      > > Prometheus "There's a lot wrong with Klemp's
      > > "message." It's deceitful and misleading!
      > > It's misleading when HK states,
      > > "My path isn't yours and yours isn't
      > > mine." That's double-talk and is not
      > > how Eckankar works! It's not what
      > > the Eckankar church is all about and
      > > it's not an individual's "path" nor is
      > > it Klemp's! He was talking about a
      > > "spiritual" path correct? It's Klemp's
      > > con/job and that's not spiritual!"
      > >
      > > I then followed up Promethus' statement by pointing out that
      my
      > own experience in Eckankar was that
      > >
      > > Jonathan "When I was trying to follow my own path
      > > while still a member of Eckankar, there were way to
      > > many times that I was thinking to myself "Would
      > > Eckankar approve of this?" or "Would Harold approve
      > > ofthis?" So it is pretty difficult to truly follow your own
      > > path when you are constantly thinking that."
      > >
      > > I would like to take this conversation in a different
      direction. I
      > can actually see why people join Eckankar based on what Klemp
      SAYS. And
      > I guess that many of the people who join will eventually realize
      that
      > their experience has turned out to be different than what Eckankar
      > seemed to imply that it would be. That's what happened to me, and
      that
      > is one of the reasons I quit Eckankar.
      > >
      > > Jonathan
      > >
      >
    • etznab@aol.com
      Jonathan & All, I took the time to watch the YouTube video and are really glad to have found the quote. In this post here, the section Jonathan illustrated
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 20 9:06 AM
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        Jonathan & All,

        I took the time to watch the YouTube video and are
        really glad to have found the quote.

        In this post here, the section Jonathan illustrated
        appears to be correct, and I want to thank others
        who provided information about what book it app-
        eared in. This way I can now record the time, the
        place and the words that were spoken on the sub-
        ject.

        The quote confirms to me something about the
        saying "Everybody has their own Eckankar" and
        how that might have developed. However, I'm not
        so sure that the idea didn't already exist before
        the seminar where Harold Klemp said [this was
        based on my impression of the Y.T. video]:

        *******************************************************

        And this is what the path of ECK is all about.
        Walking the path to God. Even more, it's about
        walking your path to God. Because your path is
        not my path. And my path is not yours. But that's
        OK. Because when God made you, he made a
        unique being. You are Soul. You are Soul. That's
        the identity behind your name. Behind your physical
        form. Behind the ... of your face. You are made in
        God's image! And it's an image of Divine love. But
        remember, you are made in God's image. So is
        your neighbor. And so am I. And so the respect
        that you would give to the one you most love. And
        when I say the one you most love, it can be a
        person, animal, place or thing. Whoever you give
        the most love to, if you can have that same love
        for yourself. Then you are recognizing yourself as
        this holy, divine light of God, that you are. That's
        what the path of ECK is about.

        *******************************************************

        I can see both the points made by Jonathan and
        also by Prometheus. Thanks for sharing what you
        did on this subject. And thank you Mish for the p.
        numbers and the book.

        Etznab



        -----Original Message-----
        From: jonathanjohns96 <jonathanjohns96@...>
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wed, Feb 17, 2010 11:27 pm
        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] "What Klemp says" versus "What
        really happens in Eckankar"

         
        All,

        I am continuing the discussion which occurred in the following thread:

        Prometheus:
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/5210

        then my follow-up:
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/5211

        In that thread, I got into somewhat of a disagreement with Prometheus
        because I said that I had no problem with what Klemp said in the
        following video. I don't want people to get triggered by watching Klemp
        so I will summarize the first part of the video.

        "ECKANKAR Religion: What's It Really About?"
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fISUxkDbW-Q

        HK "And this is what the path of Eck is all about. Walking the path to
        God. Even more, it's about walking YOUR path to God. Because your path
        is not my path. And my path is not yours. But that's OK."

        What I said about Klemps words in this video was "I like what he said.
        There's nothing wrong with it." I guess what I should have said was "On
        the surface of things, Klemp's words seemed perfectly OK to me." Also,
        no matter what I said or meant I didn't mean it as an endorsement of
        Eckankar.

        Promethus pointed out, what Klemp says and what really happens in a
        person's experience in Eckankar are two different things:

        Prometheus "There's a lot wrong with Klemp's
        "message." It's deceitful and misleading!
        It's misleading when HK states,
        "My path isn't yours and yours isn't
        mine." That's double-talk and is not
        how Eckankar works! It's not what
        the Eckankar church is all about and
        it's not an individual's "path" nor is
        it Klemp's! He was talking about a
        "spiritual" path correct? It's Klemp's
        con/job and that's not spiritual!"

        I then followed up Promethus' statement by pointing out that my own
        experience in Eckankar was that

        Jonathan "When I was trying to follow my own path
        while still a member of Eckankar, there were way to
        many times that I was thinking to myself "Would
        Eckankar approve of this?" or "Would Harold approve
        ofthis?" So it is pretty difficult to truly follow your own
        path when you are constantly thinking that."

        I would like to take this conversation in a different direction. I can
        actually see why people join Eckankar based on what Klemp SAYS. And I
        guess that many of the people who join will eventually realize that
        their experience has turned out to be different than what Eckankar
        seemed to imply that it would be. That's what happened to me, and that
        is one of the reasons I quit Eckankar.

        Jonathan
      • prometheus_973
        Hello All, The point I was trying to make is that when one joins a religion he/she gives up being on an individual path. For everybody to have their own
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 20 1:49 PM
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          Hello All,
          The point I was trying to make is that
          when one joins a religion he/she gives
          up being on an individual "path." For
          everybody to have their own "Eckankar"
          is to live in denial and with delusion!
          Religion is a group situation or "Road."
          It's not unique or individual, nor is it
          a "path!"

          When one agrees to become a member
          of a Religion they usually don't realize
          that they're also agreeing to follow
          hidden or unknown mandatory requirements.
          Usually these are presented to the
          follower in increments until they are
          fully indoctrinated, within the Hierarchy,
          with the group consciousness and the
          group rules, expectations, etc.

          Also, all religions require their members
          (clergy included) to behave and respond
          in a certain manner. They are like robots
          and can be programmed and reprogrammed
          to fit the need or situation!

          EK Members are to look to, follow, dream
          of and even emulate the leader in everything
          they do. This is to be the followers' primary
          focus. Remember, Klemp is the LEM and
          14th Plane Mahanta. Both of Klemp's
          Outer and Inner positions (according to
          his Autobiography, pg. 385) are higher
          than the 2nd or 4th Plane "GOD" (KAL, i.e.
          Satan, Devil) that all of the other religions
          in the world worship!

          Religions, Eckankar included, have dogma
          consisting of laws, rules (spoken and unspoken),
          guidelines and procedures, training requirements,
          policies, and expected/acceptable behaviours.
          And, all use fear and other intimidation tactics
          on their followers. Thus, Silence or else all future
          initiations will be withheld. Most H.I.s know
          this and that there is no real discussion or
          other P.O.V.s accepted. Hierarchy means that
          there is NO individualism and democracy.
          Klemp pointed this out in the mid-1980s
          when he created the RESA Hierarchy.

          Thus, the following HK quote is B.S. and
          double-talk:

          HK: "And this is what the path of ECK is all about.
          Walking the path to God. Even more, it's about
          walking your path to God. Because your path is
          not my path."

          ME: Correct! Klemp is the LEM/Mahanta who
          controls initiation levels and writes guidelines
          for members to follow. And, if you don't pay
          that annual membership money you can lose
          initiations and your level/plane of consciousness
          and your place in ECK the "Heavens."

          HK: "And my path is not yours. But that's
          OK."

          ME: Well, I'm not so sure that it's "OK."
          Most Eckists would like to be, at least,
          a 12th Initiate if not higher. Isn't that
          the goal... to become a 12th (ECK Master)
          because that equates to God-Realization!
          And, what ever happened to "In this
          lifetime" promise?

          HK: "Because when God made you, he made
          a unique being. You are Soul. You are Soul.
          That's the identity behind your name. Behind
          your physical form. Behind the ... of your face.
          You are made in God's image! And it's an image
          of Divine love."

          ME: Don't all religions say the same thing more
          or less? What's the catch? There has to be one
          for Soul to need Klemp. Is HK saying that Soul
          was made in his (HK's) image (God's)? Klemp
          didn't show anything close to Divine Love towards
          Darwin. Klemp still hasn't mentioned Darwin's
          death to the EK Membership let alone speak some
          kind words. What kind of "Divine Love" is this
          when one can't forgive another? See! Klemp's
          words are empty! He's a hypocrite and two faced!

          HK: "BUT remember, you are made in God's
          image. So is your neighbor. And so am I. And
          so the respect that you would give to the one
          you most love. And when I say the one you most
          love, it can be a person, animal, place or thing.
          Whoever you give the most love to, if you can
          have that same love for yourself. Then you are
          recognizing yourself as this holy, divine light of
          God, that you are. That's what the path of ECK
          is about."

          ME: Klemp must hate himself if he actually
          believes what he's said here! What about
          Service and Surrender? How does that work
          when you're just seeing yourself as "holy"
          and "Divine?"

          Plus, look at how Klemp disrespected Darwin
          Gross, the 972nd LEM and Mahanta (in training),
          who was the guy that initiated him as the
          LEM of Eckankar! It's amazing that Klemp
          has the nerve to say all of this with a straight
          face (except for his crooked "Dick Chaney"
          like smirks).

          I can, also, see why Klemp was laughing
          at all of the suckers in the audience who
          were mindlessly hanging onto his every
          word. Apparently they're both gullible and
          desperate enough to believe his Bull Sh_t
          and are incapable of connecting-the-dots
          with critical thinking, or by recalling Eckankar's
          history and those 10 missing years (1971-81)
          with all of those higher initiations given
          out to HK as well.

          If ECKists are the advanced Souls they
          imagine themselves to be, and as Klemp
          is telling them and their egos, then Why
          do they need Klemp and Eckankar?

          These Eckists (Souls) should just use
          Twitchell's two 40 year old Shariyats,
          as reference books, and proceed on
          their own private/personal unique "path"
          as Cliff Hanger Mahantas!

          Take what Klemp said at face value...
          literally! Of course, that's not what
          he really meant, or else there wouldn't
          be a Church and/or a Hierarchy. Thus,
          he was lying and using these words
          as a diversion as all religions do. In
          the retail world it's called Bait and
          Switch. Advertise one thing and sell
          something else! It happens everyday
          throughout the world.

          Everyone should BE their own Religion/
          Path! Pay yourself and donate to yourself!
          Serve and Surrender to Soul (yourself)
          not another fake "spiritual" know-it-all!
          All Religions are KAL "tests" for Soul!
          What does it take for ECKists (people)
          to see it? One can still have all, and more,
          that they promise by eliminating the
          middlemen! Middlemen were created
          by KAL

          Prometheus



          etznab wrote:
          >
          > Jonathan & All,
          >
          > I took the time to watch the YouTube video and are
          > really glad to have found the quote.
          >
          > In this post here, the section Jonathan illustrated
          > appears to be correct, and I want to thank others
          > who provided information about what book it app-
          > eared in. This way I can now record the time, the
          > place and the words that were spoken on the sub-
          > ject.
          >
          > The quote confirms to me something about the
          > saying "Everybody has their own Eckankar" and
          > how that might have developed. However, I'm not
          > so sure that the idea didn't already exist before
          > the seminar where Harold Klemp said [this was
          > based on my impression of the Y.T. video]:
          >
          > *******************************************************
          >
          > And this is what the path of ECK is all about.
          > Walking the path to God. Even more, it's about
          > walking your path to God. Because your path is
          > not my path. And my path is not yours. But that's
          > OK. Because when God made you, he made a
          > unique being. You are Soul. You are Soul. That's
          > the identity behind your name. Behind your physical
          > form. Behind the ... of your face. You are made in
          > God's image! And it's an image of Divine love. But
          > remember, you are made in God's image. So is
          > your neighbor. And so am I. And so the respect
          > that you would give to the one you most love. And
          > when I say the one you most love, it can be a
          > person, animal, place or thing. Whoever you give
          > the most love to, if you can have that same love
          > for yourself. Then you are recognizing yourself as
          > this holy, divine light of God, that you are. That's
          > what the path of ECK is about.
          >
          > *******************************************************
          >
          > I can see both the points made by Jonathan and
          > also by Prometheus. Thanks for sharing what you
          > did on this subject. And thank you Mish for the p.
          > numbers and the book.
          >
          > Etznab
          Jonathan wrote:
          > All,
          >
          > I am continuing the discussion which occurred in the following thread:
          >
          > Prometheus:
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/5210
          >
          > then my follow-up:
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/5211
          >
          > In that thread, I got into somewhat of a disagreement with Prometheus
          > because I said that I had no problem with what Klemp said in the
          > following video. I don't want people to get triggered by watching Klemp
          > so I will summarize the first part of the video.
          >
          > "ECKANKAR Religion: What's It Really About?"
          > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fISUxkDbW-Q
          >
          > HK "And this is what the path of Eck is all about. Walking the path to
          > God. Even more, it's about walking YOUR path to God. Because your path
          > is not my path. And my path is not yours. But that's OK."
          >
          > What I said about Klemps words in this video was "I like what he said.
          > There's nothing wrong with it." I guess what I should have said was "On
          > the surface of things, Klemp's words seemed perfectly OK to me." Also,
          > no matter what I said or meant I didn't mean it as an endorsement of
          > Eckankar.
          >
          > Promethus pointed out, what Klemp says and what really happens in a
          > person's experience in Eckankar are two different things:
          >
          > Prometheus "There's a lot wrong with Klemp's
          > "message." It's deceitful and misleading!
          > It's misleading when HK states,
          > "My path isn't yours and yours isn't
          > mine." That's double-talk and is not
          > how Eckankar works! It's not what
          > the Eckankar church is all about and
          > it's not an individual's "path" nor is
          > it Klemp's! He was talking about a
          > "spiritual" path correct? It's Klemp's
          > con/job and that's not spiritual!"
          >
          > I then followed up Promethus' statement by pointing out that my own
          > experience in Eckankar was that
          >
          > Jonathan "When I was trying to follow my own path
          > while still a member of Eckankar, there were way to
          > many times that I was thinking to myself "Would
          > Eckankar approve of this?" or "Would Harold approve
          > ofthis?" So it is pretty difficult to truly follow your own
          > path when you are constantly thinking that."
          >
          > I would like to take this conversation in a different direction. I can
          > actually see why people join Eckankar based on what Klemp SAYS. And I
          > guess that many of the people who join will eventually realize that
          > their experience has turned out to be different than what Eckankar
          > seemed to imply that it would be. That's what happened to me, and that
          > is one of the reasons I quit Eckankar.
          >
          > Jonathan

          Prometheus wrote:

          Hello Jonathan,
          I guess that I was still having trouble
          with the statement that "there's nothing
          wrong with it" when you were referring
          to Klemp's "message" in the one video
          of his seminar comments, especially,
          when you, also, stated:

          "I agree with you on the 'My path isn't
          yours and yours isn't mine' statement.
          It should be true in Eckankar, but it
          really isn't." And, "Another issue that
          may be at work here is that while I was
          a member of Eckankar, I was so
          programmed and hypnotized to believe
          that everything Klemp said is true, I may
          still be under that spell! and even now
          I am unable to, in a sense, disagree with
          him..."


          I know that this issue is like beating
          a dead horse, but let's face it there's
          no way that I'm going to agree with
          a "no harm" approach to Klemp's
          hidden agenda and trickery. Just
          because kind and generic wording
          is spoken, softly, by a harmless looking
          skinny and geeky old preacher man
          doesn't mean that one should let their
          guard down. That's what he wants
          people to do! Klemp is as much,
          if not more so, of a Black Magician
          as he claimed Darwin to be! Some
          of your comments point this out.

          Thus, there really is something wrong
          with "it," and the other "stuff!" Actually,
          Klemp's trickery is one reason why
          there are things wrong with the other
          stuff, or things, that he has added.

          Then again, much of Eckankar's
          dogma came from other religions
          (Ruhani Satsang and Radhasoami)
          and these sources are flawed with
          myth and lies, as well, and are intended
          to be misleading and controlling too.

          Therefore, I'll always have a problem
          with someone saying that "there's
          nothing wrong" with Klemp's empty
          words and promises or that of any
          religion that claims to be the "highest."
          Just because HK gives comfort with
          positive, bias, and/or embellished
          "spiritual" stories (like other religions
          do) based upon delusional or magical
          thinking doesn't make it acceptable.
          Nor does using one's ego as a distraction
          from critical thinking by having EKists
          focus upon the means (membership
          money, training and service) of fulfilling
          their desires for more initiations make
          it right.

          Cont.

          > > Who was Klemp's audience when the
          > > "Eckankar - What's It All About?" talk
          > > was given? Was this at a seminar where
          > > all but 100 people were Eckists?
          > >
          > > It's important to know who the audience
          > > is when Klemp states, "My path isn't
          > > your path and your path isn't mine."
          > > Was this talk, originally, for chelas
          > > and H.I.s, as well as, 100 non-Eckists?
          > >
          > > What would Klemp mean if his talk
          > > was for both groups, Eckists and non-
          > > Eckists? Since the non-Eckists attending
          > > the seminar believe in either a 2nd or
          > > 4th Plane "God" (according to Klemp
          > > in his Autobiography, page 385) then
          > > I can see what Klemp's meaning was.
          > > His "path" is to con people into believing
          > > that he's 10 levels or Planes (as the 14th
          > > Plane Mahanta) above the "God" (of various
          > > names) that every other religion worships!
          > > Therefore, their "path" isn't his. That's
          > > logical.
          > >
          > > However, what does HK mean when
          > > he's speaking to Eckists and states,
          > > "My path isn't your path and yours isn't
          > > mine?"
          > >
          > > Is everyone via individual Karma and
          > > Grace on their own individual path and
          > > are, therefore, not connected to any
          > > specific path due to an unwritten Spiritual
          > > Law? If that's true then what's the purpose
          > > of Eckankar except to prevent people from
          > > following their own true private/individual
          > > path?
          > >
          > > It seems that Eckankar is just another
          > > myth/fiction based religion designed to
          > > confuse people, keep them off-balance,
          > > second-guessing and imagining whatever
          > > they want and/or need. Klemp will take
          > > credit for everything good while the bad
          > > is either "karma" (for lower initiates) or a
          > > "test" (for higher initiates). He also takes
          > > their money and time via "service" while
          > > giving them false hope, false beliefs and
          > > unfulfilled promises. Initiations are dangled
          > > over their heads with promises of higher
          > > levels of heaven. But the high initiation
          > > ranks also provide power and prestige
          > > for the meek and weak, and the bullies!
          > >
          > > By making EK initiations seem more special
          > > with ancient and invisible (living) masters
          > > that their previous religion lacked it becomes
          > > a more special and unique item to possess.
          > > Eckankar, also, has an Eastern religious
          > > bent with New Age philosophy (holistic/
          > > alternative medicine beliefs thrown into
          > > the mix) and this makes it enticing and
          > > comfortable to many who have, also,
          > > become disillusioned and mistrustful of
          > > orthodox medicine.

          More cont.

          > > Allow me to rant some-
          > > I don't quite agree with your comments
          > > in regard to Klemp's video message
          > > of "Eckankar- What's It All Really About"
          > > when you state, "I like what he said.
          > > There's nothing wrong with it."
          > >
          > > There's a lot wrong with Klemp's
          > > "message." It's deceitful and misleading!
          > > It's misleading when HK states,
          > > "My path isn't yours and yours isn't
          > > mine." That's double-talk and is not
          > > how Eckankar works! It's not what
          > > the Eckankar church is all about and
          > > it's not an individual's "path" nor is
          > > it Klemp's! He was talking about a
          > > "spiritual" path correct? It's Klemp's
          > > con/job and that's not spiritual!
          > >
          > > Or, if one would agree that it's all
          > > part of the Divine Plan to have religious
          > > traps like Eckankar and that it's a
          > > "test" for Soul then, in a sense, it is
          > > a lower "path" that Klemp is following.
          > > But, I don't think that Klemp wanted
          > > to be truthful with people. That's not
          > > how it would work it can't be too easy!
          > > The only question I have is whether
          > > or not Klemp knows that he's a KAL
          > > agent and is working with the lower
          > > (negative) forces of EK?
          > >
          > > Let's face it, Eckankar is Klemp's
          > > vocation and retirement plan that
          > > he inherited through his own manipulations
          > > and dirty tricks!
          > >
          > > That statement of HK's, "My path
          > > isn't yours and yours isn't mine"
          > > is to disarm people in order to
          > > build trust. It Does Not describe
          > > how Eckankar really works does it?
          > > Klemp's path or way (the low-way),
          > > however, is not the highway except
          > > for those who decide to leave the
          > > broken promises and trickery of
          > > yet another religion behind.
          > >
          > > Most former Eckists have chosen
          > > a Higher way! There is no individual
          > > path within Eckankar because everything
          > > is controlled by Klemp via his many
          > > guises/disguises. Eckankar is not
          > > a "path." It's a religion that has a lot
          > > of dirty laundry, rules (many hidden),
          > > laws, guidelines, dogma, and a hierarchy.
          > > A "path" doesn't have all of that crap
          > > littering the way. All of that religious
          > > clutter just causes people to trip and
          > > fall more easily.

          Cont.

          > > > IMO, The "Golden-Tongued Wisdom,"
          > > > test, heard in this KERNWATCH Mass
          > > > Marketing video was placed there by
          > > > Divine Spirit (versus Klemp's, lower,
          > > > KAL version of ECK). It's obvious, to
          > > > me, that this other video was subconsciously
          > > > and/or divinely placed on YouTube,
          > > > along with Klemp's videos, by this ESC
          > > > staffer. This is a "Waking Dream" alert
          > > > for all ECKists to notice and understand.
          > > >
          1. Frank Kern Mass Control Marketing - KERNWATCH
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFxGYFAU7KA
          > > >
          > > > I watched parts of Klemp's videos and it's
          > > > interesting seeing the way he purses his
          > > > lips before sounding the word. And he
          > > > intentionally speaks very softly and in a
          > > > hypnotic manner to his tired audience.
          > > > It's no wonder he puts so many people
          > > > to sleep or in a trance state, but maybe
          > > > that's his plan. I noticed, too, that Klemp
          > > > seemed to look constipated as he was
          > > > trying to get his words out.
          > > >
          > > > In the video titled, "What's It Really About?"
          > > > Klemp states, "My path isn't yours and yours
          > > > isn't mine" and then he gives a little smirk
          > > > like smile as though he was congratulating
          > > > himself for his double-speak. GW did the
          > > > same! Klemp's talks always leaves them
          > > > second guessing and confused as to what
          > > > he actually said. Thus, comes the use of the
          > > > Eckists' imaginations and dreams to make
          > > > sense of it all... except it might not be right
          > > > even if you use a "charged word" and HU first!
          > > > Thus, EKists needs to have verification via
          > > > a snail-mail response from Klemp. Inner
          > > > verification cannot be verified on the outer!
          > > > Catch-22!
          > > >
          > > > BTW, I also noticed that Klemp tends to close
          > > > his eyes a lot. Isn't that a sign that indicates
          > > > a person is lying? I think so!
          > > >
          > > > I think the "What's It Really About?" video,
          > > > that I mentioned above, is on this site:
          > > >
          http://www.youtube.com/user/EckankarOfficialSite
          > > >
          > > > Check out Rev. Harry for yourself.

          Prometheus
        • prometheus_973
          I just reread what Klemp said in his seminar/video, Eckankar - What s it Really About, and it gave me some new insights into the mind of the Klempster.
          Message 4 of 11 , Feb 22 1:08 PM
          • 0 Attachment
            I just reread what Klemp said in
            his seminar/video, "Eckankar -
            What's it Really About," and it
            gave me some new insights
            into the mind of the Klempster.
            Actually, in many ways, it reconfirms
            my opinion that Klemp is harboring
            past anger and resentments.

            Let's face it, HK's still a social
            misfit and a recluse, due to his
            arrested development and other
            mental aberrations Klemp never
            learned how to love!

            One has to experience human love
            before they can experience the
            Selflessness and Divine Love.

            Instead, Klemp teaches denial via
            detachment. With the removal of
            feelings one cannot experience the
            warmth and depth of true love. Love
            for an individual or humanity is lacking.
            Thus, one cannot acquire the Knowledge
            of Divine Love.

            It begins with loving oneself, but not
            too much, as is the case with a narcissist
            like Klemp. It appears to me that Klemp
            is incapable of having empathy! Thus,
            he hasn't been able to actually "love"
            others. Sure, he can use or say the words,
            but that just takes practice... it's a con.
            And, words have two meanings, or more,
            which works to his advantage!

            Anyway here's the quote:

            HK: "BUT remember, you are made in God's
            image. So is your neighbor. And so am I. And
            so the respect that you would give to the one
            you most love. And when I say the one you most
            love, it can be a person, animal, place or thing.
            Whoever you give the most love to, if you can
            have that same love for yourself. Then you are
            recognizing yourself as this holy, divine light of
            God, that you are. That's what the path of ECK
            is about."

            As I stated before, where is the "love" and
            "respect," or forgiveness, for Darwin? Where's
            the empathy? Talk is cheap for Klemp! It's
            misdirection too!

            But, what caught my attention, the second
            time around, was this:

            "And when I say the one you most love,
            it can be a person, animal, place or thing."

            Klemp is equating the same "love" that
            you would give or feel towards a "person"
            (i.e. a wife, husband, mother, father, son,
            daughter, grandchildren, etc.) as being the
            SAME that you would give/have: for a rat,
            "animal;" Starbucks, "place;" "or a thing"
            (fill-in the blank).

            This isn't taking his words out-of-context!
            Did Klemp misspeak? Did he really mean
            this or should we second-guess him as
            ECKists tend to do so often? Really, is this
            what he meant? Let's take it at face value
            and say that, in this case, he meant what
            he said.

            Maybe it's no wonder, then, that Klemp
            didn't attend his father's funeral in October,
            1971. Instead HK attended Darwin's coronation
            as LEM and stated, about the funeral, "Let
            the dead bury the dead." And, then, many
            initiations and years later (about 37 years)
            Klemp still can't mention Darwin's death in
            March, 2008 or say anything nice about him.
            Perhaps Klemp is telling ECKists to do the
            same, at his death, with him and his works!

            Still, what about love? It's no wonder that
            ECKists have such a distorted and narrow
            minded view of love considering Klemp's
            negative and inept example. This is what
            ECKists are learning to emulate and place
            into their "spiritual tool boxes!"

            Prometheus


            Prometheus wrote:
            Hello All,
            The point I was trying to make is that
            when one joins a religion he/she gives
            up being on an individual "path." For
            everybody to have their own "Eckankar"
            is to live in denial and with delusion!
            Religion is a group situation or "Road."
            It's not unique or individual, nor is it
            a "path!"

            When one agrees to become a member
            of a Religion they usually don't realize
            that they're also agreeing to follow
            hidden or unknown mandatory requirements.
            Usually these are presented to the
            follower in increments until they are
            fully indoctrinated, within the Hierarchy,
            with the group consciousness and the
            group rules, expectations, etc.

            Also, all religions require their members
            (clergy included) to behave and respond
            in a certain manner. They are like robots
            and can be programmed and reprogrammed
            to fit the need or situation!

            EK Members are to look to, follow, dream
            of and even emulate the leader in everything
            they do. This is to be the followers' primary
            focus. Remember, Klemp is the LEM and
            14th Plane Mahanta. Both of Klemp's
            Outer and Inner positions (according to
            his Autobiography, pg. 385) are higher
            than the 2nd or 4th Plane "GOD" (KAL, i.e.
            Satan, Devil) that all of the other religions
            in the world worship!

            Religions, Eckankar included, have dogma
            consisting of laws, rules (spoken and unspoken),
            guidelines and procedures, training requirements,
            policies, and expected/acceptable behaviours.
            And, all use fear and other intimidation tactics
            on their followers. Thus, Silence or else all future
            initiations will be withheld. Most H.I.s know
            this and that there is no real discussion or
            other P.O.V.s accepted. Hierarchy means that
            there is NO individualism and democracy.
            Klemp pointed this out in the mid-1980s
            when he created the RESA Hierarchy.

            Thus, the following HK quote is B.S. and
            double-talk:

            HK: "And this is what the path of ECK is all about.
            Walking the path to God. Even more, it's about
            walking your path to God. Because your path is
            not my path."

            ME: Correct! Klemp is the LEM/Mahanta who
            controls initiation levels and writes guidelines
            for members to follow. And, if you don't pay
            that annual membership money you can lose
            initiations and your level/plane of consciousness
            and your place in ECK the "Heavens."

            HK: "And my path is not yours. But that's
            OK."

            ME: Well, I'm not so sure that it's "OK."
            Most Eckists would like to be, at least,
            a 12th Initiate if not higher. Isn't that
            the goal... to become a 12th (ECK Master)
            because that equates to God-Realization!
            And, what ever happened to "In this
            lifetime" promise?

            HK: "Because when God made you, he made
            a unique being. You are Soul. You are Soul.
            That's the identity behind your name. Behind
            your physical form. Behind the ... of your face.
            You are made in God's image! And it's an image
            of Divine love."

            ME: Don't all religions say the same thing more
            or less? What's the catch? There has to be one
            for Soul to need Klemp. Is HK saying that Soul
            was made in his (HK's) image (God's)? Klemp
            didn't show anything close to Divine Love towards
            Darwin. Klemp still hasn't mentioned Darwin's
            death to the EK Membership let alone speak some
            kind words. What kind of "Divine Love" is this
            when one can't forgive another? See! Klemp's
            words are empty! He's a hypocrite and two faced!

            HK: "BUT remember, you are made in God's
            image. So is your neighbor. And so am I. And
            so the respect that you would give to the one
            you most love. And when I say the one you most
            love, it can be a person, animal, place or thing.
            Whoever you give the most love to, if you can
            have that same love for yourself. Then you are
            recognizing yourself as this holy, divine light of
            God, that you are. That's what the path of ECK
            is about."

            ME: Klemp must hate himself if he actually
            believes what he's said here! What about
            Service and Surrender? How does that work
            when you're just seeing yourself as "holy"
            and "Divine?"

            Plus, look at how Klemp disrespected Darwin
            Gross, the 972nd LEM and Mahanta (in training),
            who was the guy that initiated him as the
            LEM of Eckankar! It's amazing that Klemp
            has the nerve to say all of this with a straight
            face (except for his crooked "Dick Chaney"
            like smirks).

            I can, also, see why Klemp was laughing
            at all of the suckers in the audience who
            were mindlessly hanging onto his every
            word. Apparently they're both gullible and
            desperate enough to believe his Bull Sh_t
            and are incapable of connecting-the-dots
            with critical thinking, or by recalling Eckankar's
            history and those 10 missing years (1971-81)
            with all of those higher initiations given
            out to HK as well.

            If ECKists are the advanced Souls they
            imagine themselves to be, and as Klemp
            is telling them and their egos, then Why
            do they need Klemp and Eckankar?

            These Eckists (Souls) should just use
            Twitchell's two 40 year old Shariyats,
            as reference books, and proceed on
            their own private/personal unique "path"
            as Cliff Hanger Mahantas!

            Take what Klemp said at face value...
            literally! Of course, that's not what
            he really meant, or else there wouldn't
            be a Church and/or a Hierarchy. Thus,
            he was lying and using these words
            as a diversion as all religions do. In
            the retail world it's called Bait and
            Switch. Advertise one thing and sell
            something else! It happens everyday
            throughout the world.

            Everyone should BE their own Religion/
            Path! Pay yourself and donate to yourself!
            Serve and Surrender to Soul (yourself)
            not another fake "spiritual" know-it-all!
            All Religions are KAL "tests" for Soul!
            What does it take for ECKists (people)
            to see it? One can still have all, and more,
            that they promise by eliminating the
            middlemen! Middlemen were created
            by KAL

            Prometheus



            etznab wrote:
            >
            > Jonathan & All,
            >
            > I took the time to watch the YouTube video and are
            > really glad to have found the quote.
            >
            > In this post here, the section Jonathan illustrated
            > appears to be correct, and I want to thank others
            > who provided information about what book it app-
            > eared in. This way I can now record the time, the
            > place and the words that were spoken on the sub-
            > ject.
            >
            > The quote confirms to me something about the
            > saying "Everybody has their own Eckankar" and
            > how that might have developed. However, I'm not
            > so sure that the idea didn't already exist before
            > the seminar where Harold Klemp said [this was
            > based on my impression of the Y.T. video]:
            >
            > *******************************************************
            >
            > And this is what the path of ECK is all about.
            > Walking the path to God. Even more, it's about
            > walking your path to God. Because your path is
            > not my path. And my path is not yours. But that's
            > OK. Because when God made you, he made a
            > unique being. You are Soul. You are Soul. That's
            > the identity behind your name. Behind your physical
            > form. Behind the ... of your face. You are made in
            > God's image! And it's an image of Divine love. But
            > remember, you are made in God's image. So is
            > your neighbor. And so am I. And so the respect
            > that you would give to the one you most love. And
            > when I say the one you most love, it can be a
            > person, animal, place or thing. Whoever you give
            > the most love to, if you can have that same love
            > for yourself. Then you are recognizing yourself as
            > this holy, divine light of God, that you are. That's
            > what the path of ECK is about.
            >
            > *******************************************************
            >
            > I can see both the points made by Jonathan and
            > also by Prometheus. Thanks for sharing what you
            > did on this subject. And thank you Mish for the p.
            > numbers and the book.
            >
            > Etznab
            Jonathan wrote:
            > All,
            >
            > I am continuing the discussion which occurred in the following thread:
            >
            > Prometheus:
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/5210
            >
            > then my follow-up:
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/5211
            >
            > In that thread, I got into somewhat of a disagreement with Prometheus
            > because I said that I had no problem with what Klemp said in the
            > following video. I don't want people to get triggered by watching Klemp
            > so I will summarize the first part of the video.
            >
            > "ECKANKAR Religion: What's It Really About?"
            > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fISUxkDbW-Q
            >
            > HK "And this is what the path of Eck is all about. Walking the path to
            > God. Even more, it's about walking YOUR path to God. Because your path
            > is not my path. And my path is not yours. But that's OK."
            >
            > What I said about Klemps words in this video was "I like what he said.
            > There's nothing wrong with it." I guess what I should have said was "On
            > the surface of things, Klemp's words seemed perfectly OK to me." Also,
            > no matter what I said or meant I didn't mean it as an endorsement of
            > Eckankar.
            >
            > Promethus pointed out, what Klemp says and what really happens in a
            > person's experience in Eckankar are two different things:
            >
            > Prometheus "There's a lot wrong with Klemp's
            > "message." It's deceitful and misleading!
            > It's misleading when HK states,
            > "My path isn't yours and yours isn't
            > mine." That's double-talk and is not
            > how Eckankar works! It's not what
            > the Eckankar church is all about and
            > it's not an individual's "path" nor is
            > it Klemp's! He was talking about a
            > "spiritual" path correct? It's Klemp's
            > con/job and that's not spiritual!"
            >
            > I then followed up Promethus' statement by pointing out that my own
            > experience in Eckankar was that
            >
            > Jonathan "When I was trying to follow my own path
            > while still a member of Eckankar, there were way to
            > many times that I was thinking to myself "Would
            > Eckankar approve of this?" or "Would Harold approve
            > ofthis?" So it is pretty difficult to truly follow your own
            > path when you are constantly thinking that."
            >
            > I would like to take this conversation in a different direction. I can
            > actually see why people join Eckankar based on what Klemp SAYS. And I
            > guess that many of the people who join will eventually realize that
            > their experience has turned out to be different than what Eckankar
            > seemed to imply that it would be. That's what happened to me, and that
            > is one of the reasons I quit Eckankar.
            >
            > Jonathan

            Prometheus wrote:

            Hello Jonathan,
            I guess that I was still having trouble
            with the statement that "there's nothing
            wrong with it" when you were referring
            to Klemp's "message" in the one video
            of his seminar comments, especially,
            when you, also, stated:

            "I agree with you on the 'My path isn't
            yours and yours isn't mine' statement.
            It should be true in Eckankar, but it
            really isn't." And, "Another issue that
            may be at work here is that while I was
            a member of Eckankar, I was so
            programmed and hypnotized to believe
            that everything Klemp said is true, I may
            still be under that spell! and even now
            I am unable to, in a sense, disagree with
            him..."


            I know that this issue is like beating
            a dead horse, but let's face it there's
            no way that I'm going to agree with
            a "no harm" approach to Klemp's
            hidden agenda and trickery. Just
            because kind and generic wording
            is spoken, softly, by a harmless looking
            skinny and geeky old preacher man
            doesn't mean that one should let their
            guard down. That's what he wants
            people to do! Klemp is as much,
            if not more so, of a Black Magician
            as he claimed Darwin to be! Some
            of your comments point this out.

            Thus, there really is something wrong
            with "it," and the other "stuff!" Actually,
            Klemp's trickery is one reason why
            there are things wrong with the other
            stuff, or things, that he has added.

            Then again, much of Eckankar's
            dogma came from other religions
            (Ruhani Satsang and Radhasoami)
            and these sources are flawed with
            myth and lies, as well, and are intended
            to be misleading and controlling too.

            Therefore, I'll always have a problem
            with someone saying that "there's
            nothing wrong" with Klemp's empty
            words and promises or that of any
            religion that claims to be the "highest."
            Just because HK gives comfort with
            positive, bias, and/or embellished
            "spiritual" stories (like other religions
            do) based upon delusional or magical
            thinking doesn't make it acceptable.
            Nor does using one's ego as a distraction
            from critical thinking by having EKists
            focus upon the means (membership
            money, training and service) of fulfilling
            their desires for more initiations make
            it right.

            Cont.

            > > Who was Klemp's audience when the
            > > "Eckankar - What's It All About?" talk
            > > was given? Was this at a seminar where
            > > all but 100 people were Eckists?
            > >
            > > It's important to know who the audience
            > > is when Klemp states, "My path isn't
            > > your path and your path isn't mine."
            > > Was this talk, originally, for chelas
            > > and H.I.s, as well as, 100 non-Eckists?
            > >
            > > What would Klemp mean if his talk
            > > was for both groups, Eckists and non-
            > > Eckists? Since the non-Eckists attending
            > > the seminar believe in either a 2nd or
            > > 4th Plane "God" (according to Klemp
            > > in his Autobiography, page 385) then
            > > I can see what Klemp's meaning was.
            > > His "path" is to con people into believing
            > > that he's 10 levels or Planes (as the 14th
            > > Plane Mahanta) above the "God" (of various
            > > names) that every other religion worships!
            > > Therefore, their "path" isn't his. That's
            > > logical.
            > >
            > > However, what does HK mean when
            > > he's speaking to Eckists and states,
            > > "My path isn't your path and yours isn't
            > > mine?"
            > >
            > > Is everyone via individual Karma and
            > > Grace on their own individual path and
            > > are, therefore, not connected to any
            > > specific path due to an unwritten Spiritual
            > > Law? If that's true then what's the purpose
            > > of Eckankar except to prevent people from
            > > following their own true private/individual
            > > path?
            > >
            > > It seems that Eckankar is just another
            > > myth/fiction based religion designed to
            > > confuse people, keep them off-balance,
            > > second-guessing and imagining whatever
            > > they want and/or need. Klemp will take
            > > credit for everything good while the bad
            > > is either "karma" (for lower initiates) or a
            > > "test" (for higher initiates). He also takes
            > > their money and time via "service" while
            > > giving them false hope, false beliefs and
            > > unfulfilled promises. Initiations are dangled
            > > over their heads with promises of higher
            > > levels of heaven. But the high initiation
            > > ranks also provide power and prestige
            > > for the meek and weak, and the bullies!
            > >
            > > By making EK initiations seem more special
            > > with ancient and invisible (living) masters
            > > that their previous religion lacked it becomes
            > > a more special and unique item to possess.
            > > Eckankar, also, has an Eastern religious
            > > bent with New Age philosophy (holistic/
            > > alternative medicine beliefs thrown into
            > > the mix) and this makes it enticing and
            > > comfortable to many who have, also,
            > > become disillusioned and mistrustful of
            > > orthodox medicine.

            More cont.

            > > Allow me to rant some-
            > > I don't quite agree with your comments
            > > in regard to Klemp's video message
            > > of "Eckankar- What's It All Really About"
            > > when you state, "I like what he said.
            > > There's nothing wrong with it."
            > >
            > > There's a lot wrong with Klemp's
            > > "message." It's deceitful and misleading!
            > > It's misleading when HK states,
            > > "My path isn't yours and yours isn't
            > > mine." That's double-talk and is not
            > > how Eckankar works! It's not what
            > > the Eckankar church is all about and
            > > it's not an individual's "path" nor is
            > > it Klemp's! He was talking about a
            > > "spiritual" path correct? It's Klemp's
            > > con/job and that's not spiritual!
            > >
            > > Or, if one would agree that it's all
            > > part of the Divine Plan to have religious
            > > traps like Eckankar and that it's a
            > > "test" for Soul then, in a sense, it is
            > > a lower "path" that Klemp is following.
            > > But, I don't think that Klemp wanted
            > > to be truthful with people. That's not
            > > how it would work it can't be too easy!
            > > The only question I have is whether
            > > or not Klemp knows that he's a KAL
            > > agent and is working with the lower
            > > (negative) forces of EK?
            > >
            > > Let's face it, Eckankar is Klemp's
            > > vocation and retirement plan that
            > > he inherited through his own manipulations
            > > and dirty tricks!
            > >
            > > That statement of HK's, "My path
            > > isn't yours and yours isn't mine"
            > > is to disarm people in order to
            > > build trust. It Does Not describe
            > > how Eckankar really works does it?
            > > Klemp's path or way (the low-way),
            > > however, is not the highway except
            > > for those who decide to leave the
            > > broken promises and trickery of
            > > yet another religion behind.
            > >
            > > Most former Eckists have chosen
            > > a Higher way! There is no individual
            > > path within Eckankar because everything
            > > is controlled by Klemp via his many
            > > guises/disguises. Eckankar is not
            > > a "path." It's a religion that has a lot
            > > of dirty laundry, rules (many hidden),
            > > laws, guidelines, dogma, and a hierarchy.
            > > A "path" doesn't have all of that crap
            > > littering the way. All of that religious
            > > clutter just causes people to trip and
            > > fall more easily.

            Cont.

            > > > IMO, The "Golden-Tongued Wisdom,"
            > > > test, heard in this KERNWATCH Mass
            > > > Marketing video was placed there by
            > > > Divine Spirit (versus Klemp's, lower,
            > > > KAL version of ECK). It's obvious, to
            > > > me, that this other video was subconsciously
            > > > and/or divinely placed on YouTube,
            > > > along with Klemp's videos, by this ESC
            > > > staffer. This is a "Waking Dream" alert
            > > > for all ECKists to notice and understand.
            > > >
            1. Frank Kern Mass Control Marketing - KERNWATCH
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFxGYFAU7KA
            > > >
            > > > I watched parts of Klemp's videos and it's
            > > > interesting seeing the way he purses his
            > > > lips before sounding the word. And he
            > > > intentionally speaks very softly and in a
            > > > hypnotic manner to his tired audience.
            > > > It's no wonder he puts so many people
            > > > to sleep or in a trance state, but maybe
            > > > that's his plan. I noticed, too, that Klemp
            > > > seemed to look constipated as he was
            > > > trying to get his words out.
            > > >
            > > > In the video titled, "What's It Really About?"
            > > > Klemp states, "My path isn't yours and yours
            > > > isn't mine" and then he gives a little smirk
            > > > like smile as though he was congratulating
            > > > himself for his double-speak. GW did the
            > > > same! Klemp's talks always leaves them
            > > > second guessing and confused as to what
            > > > he actually said. Thus, comes the use of the
            > > > Eckists' imaginations and dreams to make
            > > > sense of it all... except it might not be right
            > > > even if you use a "charged word" and HU first!
            > > > Thus, EKists needs to have verification via
            > > > a snail-mail response from Klemp. Inner
            > > > verification cannot be verified on the outer!
            > > > Catch-22!
            > > >
            > > > BTW, I also noticed that Klemp tends to close
            > > > his eyes a lot. Isn't that a sign that indicates
            > > > a person is lying? I think so!
            > > >
            > > > I think the "What's It Really About?" video,
            > > > that I mentioned above, is on this site:
            > > >
            http://www.youtube.com/user/EckankarOfficialSite
            > > >
            > > > Check out Rev. Harry for yourself.

            Prometheus
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