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"What Klemp says" versus "What really happens in Eckankar"

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  • jonathanjohns96
    All, I am continuing the discussion which occurred in the following thread: Prometheus: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/5210
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 17, 2010
      All,

      I am continuing the discussion which occurred in the following thread:

      Prometheus:
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/5210

      then my follow-up:
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/5211

      In that thread, I got into somewhat of a disagreement with Prometheus because I said that I had no problem with what Klemp said in the following video. I don't want people to get triggered by watching Klemp so I will summarize the first part of the video.

      "ECKANKAR Religion: What's It Really About?"
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fISUxkDbW-Q

      HK "And this is what the path of Eck is all about. Walking the path to God. Even more, it's about walking YOUR path to God. Because your path is not my path. And my path is not yours. But that's OK."

      What I said about Klemps words in this video was "I like what he said. There's nothing wrong with it." I guess what I should have said was "On the surface of things, Klemp's words seemed perfectly OK to me." Also, no matter what I said or meant I didn't mean it as an endorsement of Eckankar.

      Promethus pointed out, what Klemp says and what really happens in a person's experience in Eckankar are two different things:

      Prometheus "There's a lot wrong with Klemp's
      "message." It's deceitful and misleading!
      It's misleading when HK states,
      "My path isn't yours and yours isn't
      mine." That's double-talk and is not
      how Eckankar works! It's not what
      the Eckankar church is all about and
      it's not an individual's "path" nor is
      it Klemp's! He was talking about a
      "spiritual" path correct? It's Klemp's
      con/job and that's not spiritual!"

      I then followed up Promethus' statement by pointing out that my own experience in Eckankar was that

      Jonathan "When I was trying to follow my own path
      while still a member of Eckankar, there were way to
      many times that I was thinking to myself "Would
      Eckankar approve of this?" or "Would Harold approve
      ofthis?" So it is pretty difficult to truly follow your own
      path when you are constantly thinking that."

      I would like to take this conversation in a different direction. I can actually see why people join Eckankar based on what Klemp SAYS. And I guess that many of the people who join will eventually realize that their experience has turned out to be different than what Eckankar seemed to imply that it would be. That's what happened to me, and that is one of the reasons I quit Eckankar.

      Jonathan
    • jonathanjohns96
      All, Klemp Even more, it s about walking YOUR path to God. Because your path is not my path. And my path is not yours. I still say that the words here are
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 17, 2010
        All,

        Klemp "Even more, it's about walking YOUR path to God. Because your path is not my path. And my path is not yours."

        I still say that the words here are OK. It's great, isn't it? Yes, until you actually join Eckankar and find out that this is not what really happens.

        If people still don't understand what I am saying, then I just give up.

        Jonathan



        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96" <jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:
        >
        > All,
        >
        > I am continuing the discussion which occurred in the following thread:
        >
        > Prometheus:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/5210
        >
        > then my follow-up:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/5211
        >
        > In that thread, I got into somewhat of a disagreement with Prometheus because I said that I had no problem with what Klemp said in the following video. I don't want people to get triggered by watching Klemp so I will summarize the first part of the video.
        >
        > "ECKANKAR Religion: What's It Really About?"
        > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fISUxkDbW-Q
        >
        > HK "And this is what the path of Eck is all about. Walking the path to God. Even more, it's about walking YOUR path to God. Because your path is not my path. And my path is not yours. But that's OK."
        >
        > What I said about Klemps words in this video was "I like what he said. There's nothing wrong with it." I guess what I should have said was "On the surface of things, Klemp's words seemed perfectly OK to me." Also, no matter what I said or meant I didn't mean it as an endorsement of Eckankar.
        >
        > Promethus pointed out, what Klemp says and what really happens in a person's experience in Eckankar are two different things:
        >
        > Prometheus "There's a lot wrong with Klemp's
        > "message." It's deceitful and misleading!
        > It's misleading when HK states,
        > "My path isn't yours and yours isn't
        > mine." That's double-talk and is not
        > how Eckankar works! It's not what
        > the Eckankar church is all about and
        > it's not an individual's "path" nor is
        > it Klemp's! He was talking about a
        > "spiritual" path correct? It's Klemp's
        > con/job and that's not spiritual!"
        >
        > I then followed up Promethus' statement by pointing out that my own experience in Eckankar was that
        >
        > Jonathan "When I was trying to follow my own path
        > while still a member of Eckankar, there were way to
        > many times that I was thinking to myself "Would
        > Eckankar approve of this?" or "Would Harold approve
        > ofthis?" So it is pretty difficult to truly follow your own
        > path when you are constantly thinking that."
        >
        > I would like to take this conversation in a different direction. I can actually see why people join Eckankar based on what Klemp SAYS. And I guess that many of the people who join will eventually realize that their experience has turned out to be different than what Eckankar seemed to imply that it would be. That's what happened to me, and that is one of the reasons I quit Eckankar.
        >
        > Jonathan
        >
      • postekcon
        Yes, statements such as My path isn t yours and yours isn t mine etc sound real good on first hearing! However, they are similar to fishing, tasty bait to
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 17, 2010
          Yes, statements such as "My path isn't yours and yours isn't
          mine" etc sound real good on first hearing! However, they are similar to fishing, tasty bait to catch the passing fish.
          Once a fish is hooked, ekult has a 'busy program' to ensure netting remains secure!
          -Postekcon


          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96" <jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:
          >
          > All,
          >
          > Klemp "Even more, it's about walking YOUR path to God. Because your path is not my path. And my path is not yours."
          >
          > I still say that the words here are OK. It's great, isn't it? Yes, until you actually join Eckankar and find out that this is not what really happens.
          >
          > If people still don't understand what I am saying, then I just give up.
          >
          > Jonathan
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96" <jonathanjohns96@> wrote:
          > >
          > > All,
          > >
          > > I am continuing the discussion which occurred in the following thread:
          > >
          > > Prometheus:
          > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/5210
          > >
          > > then my follow-up:
          > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/5211
          > >
          > > In that thread, I got into somewhat of a disagreement with Prometheus because I said that I had no problem with what Klemp said in the following video. I don't want people to get triggered by watching Klemp so I will summarize the first part of the video.
          > >
          > > "ECKANKAR Religion: What's It Really About?"
          > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fISUxkDbW-Q
          > >
          > > HK "And this is what the path of Eck is all about. Walking the path to God. Even more, it's about walking YOUR path to God. Because your path is not my path. And my path is not yours. But that's OK."
          > >
          > > What I said about Klemps words in this video was "I like what he said. There's nothing wrong with it." I guess what I should have said was "On the surface of things, Klemp's words seemed perfectly OK to me." Also, no matter what I said or meant I didn't mean it as an endorsement of Eckankar.
          > >
          > > Promethus pointed out, what Klemp says and what really happens in a person's experience in Eckankar are two different things:
          > >
          > > Prometheus "There's a lot wrong with Klemp's
          > > "message." It's deceitful and misleading!
          > > It's misleading when HK states,
          > > "My path isn't yours and yours isn't
          > > mine." That's double-talk and is not
          > > how Eckankar works! It's not what
          > > the Eckankar church is all about and
          > > it's not an individual's "path" nor is
          > > it Klemp's! He was talking about a
          > > "spiritual" path correct? It's Klemp's
          > > con/job and that's not spiritual!"
          > >
          > > I then followed up Promethus' statement by pointing out that my own experience in Eckankar was that
          > >
          > > Jonathan "When I was trying to follow my own path
          > > while still a member of Eckankar, there were way to
          > > many times that I was thinking to myself "Would
          > > Eckankar approve of this?" or "Would Harold approve
          > > ofthis?" So it is pretty difficult to truly follow your own
          > > path when you are constantly thinking that."
          > >
          > > I would like to take this conversation in a different direction. I can actually see why people join Eckankar based on what Klemp SAYS. And I guess that many of the people who join will eventually realize that their experience has turned out to be different than what Eckankar seemed to imply that it would be. That's what happened to me, and that is one of the reasons I quit Eckankar.
          > >
          > > Jonathan
          > >
          >
        • etznab@aol.com
          Even more, it s about walking YOUR path to God. Because your path is not my path. And my path is not yours. JJ, I ve been looking for that quote for a long
          Message 4 of 11 , Feb 18, 2010
            "Even more, it's about walking YOUR path to God.
            Because your path is not my path. And my path is
            not yours."

            JJ,

            I've been looking for "that quote" for a long time!
            Thanks for mentioning it.

            Do you know what seminar that was mentioned
            at? What year? Or, what transcripts book has it?

            I remember a quote similar to that, and where it
            said something like: My Eckankar might not be
            the same as your Eckankar. Your Eckankar not
            the same as my Eckankar. And that's OK.

            The exact words I can't remember, but something
            like that was mentioned at a WWS.

            Now I'm thinking that quote you illustrated is the
            one I've been looking for. I'm not sure though.

            Etznab

            -----Original Message-----
            From: jonathanjohns96 <jonathanjohns96@...>
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wed, Feb 17, 2010 11:32 pm
            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: "What Klemp says" versus
            "What really happens in Eckankar"

             
            All,

            Klemp "Even more, it's about walking YOUR path to God. Because your
            path is not my path. And my path is not yours."

            I still say that the words here are OK. It's great, isn't it? Yes,
            until you actually join Eckankar and find out that this is not what
            really happens.

            If people still don't understand what I am saying, then I just give up.

            Jonathan

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96"
            <jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:
            >
            > All,
            >
            > I am continuing the discussion which occurred in the following
            thread:
            >
            > Prometheus:
            >
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/5210
            >
            > then my follow-up:
            >
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/5211
            >
            > In that thread, I got into somewhat of a disagreement with
            Prometheus because I said that I had no problem with what Klemp said in
            the following video. I don't want people to get triggered by watching
            Klemp so I will summarize the first part of the video.
            >
            > "ECKANKAR Religion: What's It Really About?"
            > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fISUxkDbW-Q
            >
            > HK "And this is what the path of Eck is all about. Walking the
            path to God. Even more, it's about walking YOUR path to God. Because
            your path is not my path. And my path is not yours. But that's OK."
            >
            > What I said about Klemps words in this video was "I like what he
            said. There's nothing wrong with it." I guess what I should have said
            was "On the surface of things, Klemp's words seemed perfectly OK to
            me." Also, no matter what I said or meant I didn't mean it as an
            endorsement of Eckankar.
            >
            > Promethus pointed out, what Klemp says and what really happens in
            a person's experience in Eckankar are two different things:
            >
            > Prometheus "There's a lot wrong with Klemp's
            > "message." It's deceitful and misleading!
            > It's misleading when HK states,
            > "My path isn't yours and yours isn't
            > mine." That's double-talk and is not
            > how Eckankar works! It's not what
            > the Eckankar church is all about and
            > it's not an individual's "path" nor is
            > it Klemp's! He was talking about a
            > "spiritual" path correct? It's Klemp's
            > con/job and that's not spiritual!"
            >
            > I then followed up Promethus' statement by pointing out that my
            own experience in Eckankar was that
            >
            > Jonathan "When I was trying to follow my own path
            > while still a member of Eckankar, there were way to
            > many times that I was thinking to myself "Would
            > Eckankar approve of this?" or "Would Harold approve
            > ofthis?" So it is pretty difficult to truly follow your own
            > path when you are constantly thinking that."
            >
            > I would like to take this conversation in a different direction. I
            can actually see why people join Eckankar based on what Klemp SAYS. And
            I guess that many of the people who join will eventually realize that
            their experience has turned out to be different than what Eckankar
            seemed to imply that it would be. That's what happened to me, and that
            is one of the reasons I quit Eckankar.
            >
            > Jonathan
            >
          • mishmisha9
            Etznab, you can find the quote here: Harold Klemp, How to Survive Spiritually in Our Times, pp. 164–65
            Message 5 of 11 , Feb 18, 2010
              Etznab, you can find the quote here:

              Harold Klemp, How to Survive Spiritually in Our Times, pp. 164–65

              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
              >
              > "Even more, it's about walking YOUR path to God.
              > Because your path is not my path. And my path is
              > not yours."
              >
              > JJ,
              >
              > I've been looking for "that quote" for a long time!
              > Thanks for mentioning it.
              >
              > Do you know what seminar that was mentioned
              > at? What year? Or, what transcripts book has it?
              >
              > I remember a quote similar to that, and where it
              > said something like: My Eckankar might not be
              > the same as your Eckankar. Your Eckankar not
              > the same as my Eckankar. And that's OK.
              >
              > The exact words I can't remember, but something
              > like that was mentioned at a WWS.
              >
              > Now I'm thinking that quote you illustrated is the
              > one I've been looking for. I'm not sure though.
              >
              > Etznab
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: jonathanjohns96 <jonathanjohns96@...>
              > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Wed, Feb 17, 2010 11:32 pm
              > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: "What Klemp says" versus
              > "What really happens in Eckankar"
              >
              >  
              > All,
              >
              > Klemp "Even more, it's about walking YOUR path to God. Because your
              > path is not my path. And my path is not yours."
              >
              > I still say that the words here are OK. It's great, isn't it? Yes,
              > until you actually join Eckankar and find out that this is not what
              > really happens.
              >
              > If people still don't understand what I am saying, then I just give up.
              >
              > Jonathan
              >
              > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96"
              > jonathanjohns96@ wrote:
              > >
              > > All,
              > >
              > > I am continuing the discussion which occurred in the following
              > thread:
              > >
              > > Prometheus:
              > >
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/5210
              > >
              > > then my follow-up:
              > >
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/5211
              > >
              > > In that thread, I got into somewhat of a disagreement with
              > Prometheus because I said that I had no problem with what Klemp said in
              > the following video. I don't want people to get triggered by watching
              > Klemp so I will summarize the first part of the video.
              > >
              > > "ECKANKAR Religion: What's It Really About?"
              > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fISUxkDbW-Q
              > >
              > > HK "And this is what the path of Eck is all about. Walking the
              > path to God. Even more, it's about walking YOUR path to God. Because
              > your path is not my path. And my path is not yours. But that's OK."
              > >
              > > What I said about Klemps words in this video was "I like what he
              > said. There's nothing wrong with it." I guess what I should have said
              > was "On the surface of things, Klemp's words seemed perfectly OK to
              > me." Also, no matter what I said or meant I didn't mean it as an
              > endorsement of Eckankar.
              > >
              > > Promethus pointed out, what Klemp says and what really happens in
              > a person's experience in Eckankar are two different things:
              > >
              > > Prometheus "There's a lot wrong with Klemp's
              > > "message." It's deceitful and misleading!
              > > It's misleading when HK states,
              > > "My path isn't yours and yours isn't
              > > mine." That's double-talk and is not
              > > how Eckankar works! It's not what
              > > the Eckankar church is all about and
              > > it's not an individual's "path" nor is
              > > it Klemp's! He was talking about a
              > > "spiritual" path correct? It's Klemp's
              > > con/job and that's not spiritual!"
              > >
              > > I then followed up Promethus' statement by pointing out that my
              > own experience in Eckankar was that
              > >
              > > Jonathan "When I was trying to follow my own path
              > > while still a member of Eckankar, there were way to
              > > many times that I was thinking to myself "Would
              > > Eckankar approve of this?" or "Would Harold approve
              > > ofthis?" So it is pretty difficult to truly follow your own
              > > path when you are constantly thinking that."
              > >
              > > I would like to take this conversation in a different direction. I
              > can actually see why people join Eckankar based on what Klemp SAYS. And
              > I guess that many of the people who join will eventually realize that
              > their experience has turned out to be different than what Eckankar
              > seemed to imply that it would be. That's what happened to me, and that
              > is one of the reasons I quit Eckankar.
              > >
              > > Jonathan
              > >
              >
            • jonathanjohns96
              Etznab, I think you probably have the link to the video on YouTube, but in case you don t, here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fISUxkDbW-Q Based on how
              Message 6 of 11 , Feb 18, 2010
                Etznab,

                I think you probably have the link to the video on YouTube, but in case you don't, here it is:

                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fISUxkDbW-Q

                Based on how he looks in the video, it seems to have been awhile ago.

                Glad you appreciated it. Glad to be of some help.

                Jonathan



                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9" <mishmisha9@...> wrote:
                >
                > Etznab, you can find the quote here:
                >
                > Harold Klemp, How to Survive Spiritually in Our Times, pp. 164–65
                >
                > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                > >
                > > "Even more, it's about walking YOUR path to God.
                > > Because your path is not my path. And my path is
                > > not yours."
                > >
                > > JJ,
                > >
                > > I've been looking for "that quote" for a long time!
                > > Thanks for mentioning it.
                > >
                > > Do you know what seminar that was mentioned
                > > at? What year? Or, what transcripts book has it?
                > >
                > > I remember a quote similar to that, and where it
                > > said something like: My Eckankar might not be
                > > the same as your Eckankar. Your Eckankar not
                > > the same as my Eckankar. And that's OK.
                > >
                > > The exact words I can't remember, but something
                > > like that was mentioned at a WWS.
                > >
                > > Now I'm thinking that quote you illustrated is the
                > > one I've been looking for. I'm not sure though.
                > >
                > > Etznab
                > >
                > > -----Original Message-----
                > > From: jonathanjohns96 <jonathanjohns96@>
                > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                > > Sent: Wed, Feb 17, 2010 11:32 pm
                > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: "What Klemp says" versus
                > > "What really happens in Eckankar"
                > >
                > >  
                > > All,
                > >
                > > Klemp "Even more, it's about walking YOUR path to God. Because your
                > > path is not my path. And my path is not yours."
                > >
                > > I still say that the words here are OK. It's great, isn't it? Yes,
                > > until you actually join Eckankar and find out that this is not what
                > > really happens.
                > >
                > > If people still don't understand what I am saying, then I just give up.
                > >
                > > Jonathan
                > >
                > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96"
                > > jonathanjohns96@ wrote:
                > > >
                > > > All,
                > > >
                > > > I am continuing the discussion which occurred in the following
                > > thread:
                > > >
                > > > Prometheus:
                > > >
                > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/5210
                > > >
                > > > then my follow-up:
                > > >
                > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/5211
                > > >
                > > > In that thread, I got into somewhat of a disagreement with
                > > Prometheus because I said that I had no problem with what Klemp said in
                > > the following video. I don't want people to get triggered by watching
                > > Klemp so I will summarize the first part of the video.
                > > >
                > > > "ECKANKAR Religion: What's It Really About?"
                > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fISUxkDbW-Q
                > > >
                > > > HK "And this is what the path of Eck is all about. Walking the
                > > path to God. Even more, it's about walking YOUR path to God. Because
                > > your path is not my path. And my path is not yours. But that's OK."
                > > >
                > > > What I said about Klemps words in this video was "I like what he
                > > said. There's nothing wrong with it." I guess what I should have said
                > > was "On the surface of things, Klemp's words seemed perfectly OK to
                > > me." Also, no matter what I said or meant I didn't mean it as an
                > > endorsement of Eckankar.
                > > >
                > > > Promethus pointed out, what Klemp says and what really happens in
                > > a person's experience in Eckankar are two different things:
                > > >
                > > > Prometheus "There's a lot wrong with Klemp's
                > > > "message." It's deceitful and misleading!
                > > > It's misleading when HK states,
                > > > "My path isn't yours and yours isn't
                > > > mine." That's double-talk and is not
                > > > how Eckankar works! It's not what
                > > > the Eckankar church is all about and
                > > > it's not an individual's "path" nor is
                > > > it Klemp's! He was talking about a
                > > > "spiritual" path correct? It's Klemp's
                > > > con/job and that's not spiritual!"
                > > >
                > > > I then followed up Promethus' statement by pointing out that my
                > > own experience in Eckankar was that
                > > >
                > > > Jonathan "When I was trying to follow my own path
                > > > while still a member of Eckankar, there were way to
                > > > many times that I was thinking to myself "Would
                > > > Eckankar approve of this?" or "Would Harold approve
                > > > ofthis?" So it is pretty difficult to truly follow your own
                > > > path when you are constantly thinking that."
                > > >
                > > > I would like to take this conversation in a different direction. I
                > > can actually see why people join Eckankar based on what Klemp SAYS. And
                > > I guess that many of the people who join will eventually realize that
                > > their experience has turned out to be different than what Eckankar
                > > seemed to imply that it would be. That's what happened to me, and that
                > > is one of the reasons I quit Eckankar.
                > > >
                > > > Jonathan
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • mishmisha9
                I know some eckists will read quotes and not the context or full text of the quote . . . and then they take it in the direction they want. I never found
                Message 7 of 11 , Feb 18, 2010
                  I know some eckists will read quotes and not the context or
                  full text of the quote . . . and then they take it in the direction
                  they want. I never found anything profound in Klemp's writings.
                  They basically lull you to sleep. If one really pays attention to what
                  Klemp says and/or writes, he takes a person in circles at best after
                  leading one here and there disjointedly . . . he just babbles along.
                  Of course, I understand that he thinks Joan babbles . . . to the point
                  that he tells her to shut her mouth! But since he is the mahanta, no
                  one would dare to tell him the same . . . he has free range!! LOL!

                  Anyway, a short cut in reading Klemp's books is to just read the
                  side bar quotes and discuss those . . . I'm assuming that he thinks
                  his chelas have a short attention span . . . or just won't be able to
                  follow his astute writings. Many eckists actually do this . . . they
                  don't buy the books, maybe flip through them at the eck centers
                  or possibly at a bookstore . . . and think they get it! But once
                  you dedicate yourself to reading his writings, you realize they are
                  nothing!! Been there; done that!!

                  Mish


                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "postekcon" <postekcon@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Yes, statements such as "My path isn't yours and yours isn't
                  > mine" etc sound real good on first hearing! However, they are similar to fishing, tasty bait to catch the passing fish.
                  > Once a fish is hooked, ekult has a 'busy program' to ensure netting remains secure!
                  > -Postekcon
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96" <jonathanjohns96@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > All,
                  > >
                  > > Klemp "Even more, it's about walking YOUR path to God. Because your path is not my path. And my path is not yours."
                  > >
                  > > I still say that the words here are OK. It's great, isn't it? Yes, until you actually join Eckankar and find out that this is not what really happens.
                  > >
                  > > If people still don't understand what I am saying, then I just give up.
                  > >
                  > > Jonathan
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96" <jonathanjohns96@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > All,
                  > > >
                  > > > I am continuing the discussion which occurred in the following thread:
                  > > >
                  > > > Prometheus:
                  > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/5210
                  > > >
                  > > > then my follow-up:
                  > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/5211
                  > > >
                  > > > In that thread, I got into somewhat of a disagreement with Prometheus because I said that I had no problem with what Klemp said in the following video. I don't want people to get triggered by watching Klemp so I will summarize the first part of the video.
                  > > >
                  > > > "ECKANKAR Religion: What's It Really About?"
                  > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fISUxkDbW-Q
                  > > >
                  > > > HK "And this is what the path of Eck is all about. Walking the path to God. Even more, it's about walking YOUR path to God. Because your path is not my path. And my path is not yours. But that's OK."
                  > > >
                  > > > What I said about Klemps words in this video was "I like what he said. There's nothing wrong with it." I guess what I should have said was "On the surface of things, Klemp's words seemed perfectly OK to me." Also, no matter what I said or meant I didn't mean it as an endorsement of Eckankar.
                  > > >
                  > > > Promethus pointed out, what Klemp says and what really happens in a person's experience in Eckankar are two different things:
                  > > >
                  > > > Prometheus "There's a lot wrong with Klemp's
                  > > > "message." It's deceitful and misleading!
                  > > > It's misleading when HK states,
                  > > > "My path isn't yours and yours isn't
                  > > > mine." That's double-talk and is not
                  > > > how Eckankar works! It's not what
                  > > > the Eckankar church is all about and
                  > > > it's not an individual's "path" nor is
                  > > > it Klemp's! He was talking about a
                  > > > "spiritual" path correct? It's Klemp's
                  > > > con/job and that's not spiritual!"
                  > > >
                  > > > I then followed up Promethus' statement by pointing out that my own experience in Eckankar was that
                  > > >
                  > > > Jonathan "When I was trying to follow my own path
                  > > > while still a member of Eckankar, there were way to
                  > > > many times that I was thinking to myself "Would
                  > > > Eckankar approve of this?" or "Would Harold approve
                  > > > ofthis?" So it is pretty difficult to truly follow your own
                  > > > path when you are constantly thinking that."
                  > > >
                  > > > I would like to take this conversation in a different direction. I can actually see why people join Eckankar based on what Klemp SAYS. And I guess that many of the people who join will eventually realize that their experience has turned out to be different than what Eckankar seemed to imply that it would be. That's what happened to me, and that is one of the reasons I quit Eckankar.
                  > > >
                  > > > Jonathan
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • etznab@aol.com
                  Thanks Mish. I don t believe I have that book. Will have to look it up though. Etznab ... From: mishmisha9 To:
                  Message 8 of 11 , Feb 20, 2010
                    Thanks Mish. I don't believe I have that book.
                    Will have to look it up though.

                    Etznab

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: mishmisha9 <mishmisha9@...>
                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Thu, Feb 18, 2010 6:49 pm
                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: "What Klemp says" versus
                    "What really happens in Eckankar"

                     
                    Etznab, you can find the quote here:

                    Harold Klemp, How to Survive Spiritually in Our Times, pp. 164–65

                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
                    >
                    > "Even more, it's about walking YOUR path to God.
                    > Because your path is not my path. And my path is
                    > not yours."
                    >
                    > JJ,
                    >
                    > I've been looking for "that quote" for a long time!
                    > Thanks for mentioning it.
                    >
                    > Do you know what seminar that was mentioned
                    > at? What year? Or, what transcripts book has it?
                    >
                    > I remember a quote similar to that, and where it
                    > said something like: My Eckankar might not be
                    > the same as your Eckankar. Your Eckankar not
                    > the same as my Eckankar. And that's OK.
                    >
                    > The exact words I can't remember, but something
                    > like that was mentioned at a WWS.
                    >
                    > Now I'm thinking that quote you illustrated is the
                    > one I've been looking for. I'm not sure though.
                    >
                    > Etznab
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: jonathanjohns96 <jonathanjohns96@...>
                    > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Wed, Feb 17, 2010 11:32 pm
                    > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: "What Klemp says" versus
                    > "What really happens in Eckankar"
                    >
                    >  
                    > All,
                    >
                    > Klemp "Even more, it's about walking YOUR path to God. Because
                    your
                    > path is not my path. And my path is not yours."
                    >
                    > I still say that the words here are OK. It's great, isn't it? Yes,
                    > until you actually join Eckankar and find out that this is not
                    what
                    > really happens.
                    >
                    > If people still don't understand what I am saying, then I just
                    give up.
                    >
                    > Jonathan
                    >
                    > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                    "jonathanjohns96"
                    > jonathanjohns96@ wrote:
                    > >
                    > > All,
                    > >
                    > > I am continuing the discussion which occurred in the
                    following
                    > thread:
                    > >
                    > > Prometheus:
                    > >
                    >
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/5210
                    > >
                    > > then my follow-up:
                    > >
                    >
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/5211
                    > >
                    > > In that thread, I got into somewhat of a disagreement with
                    > Prometheus because I said that I had no problem with what Klemp
                    said in
                    > the following video. I don't want people to get triggered by
                    watching
                    > Klemp so I will summarize the first part of the video.
                    > >
                    > > "ECKANKAR Religion: What's It Really About?"
                    > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fISUxkDbW-Q
                    > >
                    > > HK "And this is what the path of Eck is all about. Walking
                    the
                    > path to God. Even more, it's about walking YOUR path to God.
                    Because
                    > your path is not my path. And my path is not yours. But that's OK."
                    > >
                    > > What I said about Klemps words in this video was "I like what
                    he
                    > said. There's nothing wrong with it." I guess what I should have
                    said
                    > was "On the surface of things, Klemp's words seemed perfectly OK
                    to
                    > me." Also, no matter what I said or meant I didn't mean it as an
                    > endorsement of Eckankar.
                    > >
                    > > Promethus pointed out, what Klemp says and what really
                    happens in
                    > a person's experience in Eckankar are two different things:
                    > >
                    > > Prometheus "There's a lot wrong with Klemp's
                    > > "message." It's deceitful and misleading!
                    > > It's misleading when HK states,
                    > > "My path isn't yours and yours isn't
                    > > mine." That's double-talk and is not
                    > > how Eckankar works! It's not what
                    > > the Eckankar church is all about and
                    > > it's not an individual's "path" nor is
                    > > it Klemp's! He was talking about a
                    > > "spiritual" path correct? It's Klemp's
                    > > con/job and that's not spiritual!"
                    > >
                    > > I then followed up Promethus' statement by pointing out that
                    my
                    > own experience in Eckankar was that
                    > >
                    > > Jonathan "When I was trying to follow my own path
                    > > while still a member of Eckankar, there were way to
                    > > many times that I was thinking to myself "Would
                    > > Eckankar approve of this?" or "Would Harold approve
                    > > ofthis?" So it is pretty difficult to truly follow your own
                    > > path when you are constantly thinking that."
                    > >
                    > > I would like to take this conversation in a different
                    direction. I
                    > can actually see why people join Eckankar based on what Klemp
                    SAYS. And
                    > I guess that many of the people who join will eventually realize
                    that
                    > their experience has turned out to be different than what Eckankar
                    > seemed to imply that it would be. That's what happened to me, and
                    that
                    > is one of the reasons I quit Eckankar.
                    > >
                    > > Jonathan
                    > >
                    >
                  • etznab@aol.com
                    Jonathan & All, I took the time to watch the YouTube video and are really glad to have found the quote. In this post here, the section Jonathan illustrated
                    Message 9 of 11 , Feb 20, 2010
                      Jonathan & All,

                      I took the time to watch the YouTube video and are
                      really glad to have found the quote.

                      In this post here, the section Jonathan illustrated
                      appears to be correct, and I want to thank others
                      who provided information about what book it app-
                      eared in. This way I can now record the time, the
                      place and the words that were spoken on the sub-
                      ject.

                      The quote confirms to me something about the
                      saying "Everybody has their own Eckankar" and
                      how that might have developed. However, I'm not
                      so sure that the idea didn't already exist before
                      the seminar where Harold Klemp said [this was
                      based on my impression of the Y.T. video]:

                      *******************************************************

                      And this is what the path of ECK is all about.
                      Walking the path to God. Even more, it's about
                      walking your path to God. Because your path is
                      not my path. And my path is not yours. But that's
                      OK. Because when God made you, he made a
                      unique being. You are Soul. You are Soul. That's
                      the identity behind your name. Behind your physical
                      form. Behind the ... of your face. You are made in
                      God's image! And it's an image of Divine love. But
                      remember, you are made in God's image. So is
                      your neighbor. And so am I. And so the respect
                      that you would give to the one you most love. And
                      when I say the one you most love, it can be a
                      person, animal, place or thing. Whoever you give
                      the most love to, if you can have that same love
                      for yourself. Then you are recognizing yourself as
                      this holy, divine light of God, that you are. That's
                      what the path of ECK is about.

                      *******************************************************

                      I can see both the points made by Jonathan and
                      also by Prometheus. Thanks for sharing what you
                      did on this subject. And thank you Mish for the p.
                      numbers and the book.

                      Etznab



                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: jonathanjohns96 <jonathanjohns96@...>
                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Wed, Feb 17, 2010 11:27 pm
                      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] "What Klemp says" versus "What
                      really happens in Eckankar"

                       
                      All,

                      I am continuing the discussion which occurred in the following thread:

                      Prometheus:
                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/5210

                      then my follow-up:
                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/5211

                      In that thread, I got into somewhat of a disagreement with Prometheus
                      because I said that I had no problem with what Klemp said in the
                      following video. I don't want people to get triggered by watching Klemp
                      so I will summarize the first part of the video.

                      "ECKANKAR Religion: What's It Really About?"
                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fISUxkDbW-Q

                      HK "And this is what the path of Eck is all about. Walking the path to
                      God. Even more, it's about walking YOUR path to God. Because your path
                      is not my path. And my path is not yours. But that's OK."

                      What I said about Klemps words in this video was "I like what he said.
                      There's nothing wrong with it." I guess what I should have said was "On
                      the surface of things, Klemp's words seemed perfectly OK to me." Also,
                      no matter what I said or meant I didn't mean it as an endorsement of
                      Eckankar.

                      Promethus pointed out, what Klemp says and what really happens in a
                      person's experience in Eckankar are two different things:

                      Prometheus "There's a lot wrong with Klemp's
                      "message." It's deceitful and misleading!
                      It's misleading when HK states,
                      "My path isn't yours and yours isn't
                      mine." That's double-talk and is not
                      how Eckankar works! It's not what
                      the Eckankar church is all about and
                      it's not an individual's "path" nor is
                      it Klemp's! He was talking about a
                      "spiritual" path correct? It's Klemp's
                      con/job and that's not spiritual!"

                      I then followed up Promethus' statement by pointing out that my own
                      experience in Eckankar was that

                      Jonathan "When I was trying to follow my own path
                      while still a member of Eckankar, there were way to
                      many times that I was thinking to myself "Would
                      Eckankar approve of this?" or "Would Harold approve
                      ofthis?" So it is pretty difficult to truly follow your own
                      path when you are constantly thinking that."

                      I would like to take this conversation in a different direction. I can
                      actually see why people join Eckankar based on what Klemp SAYS. And I
                      guess that many of the people who join will eventually realize that
                      their experience has turned out to be different than what Eckankar
                      seemed to imply that it would be. That's what happened to me, and that
                      is one of the reasons I quit Eckankar.

                      Jonathan
                    • prometheus_973
                      Hello All, The point I was trying to make is that when one joins a religion he/she gives up being on an individual path. For everybody to have their own
                      Message 10 of 11 , Feb 20, 2010
                        Hello All,
                        The point I was trying to make is that
                        when one joins a religion he/she gives
                        up being on an individual "path." For
                        everybody to have their own "Eckankar"
                        is to live in denial and with delusion!
                        Religion is a group situation or "Road."
                        It's not unique or individual, nor is it
                        a "path!"

                        When one agrees to become a member
                        of a Religion they usually don't realize
                        that they're also agreeing to follow
                        hidden or unknown mandatory requirements.
                        Usually these are presented to the
                        follower in increments until they are
                        fully indoctrinated, within the Hierarchy,
                        with the group consciousness and the
                        group rules, expectations, etc.

                        Also, all religions require their members
                        (clergy included) to behave and respond
                        in a certain manner. They are like robots
                        and can be programmed and reprogrammed
                        to fit the need or situation!

                        EK Members are to look to, follow, dream
                        of and even emulate the leader in everything
                        they do. This is to be the followers' primary
                        focus. Remember, Klemp is the LEM and
                        14th Plane Mahanta. Both of Klemp's
                        Outer and Inner positions (according to
                        his Autobiography, pg. 385) are higher
                        than the 2nd or 4th Plane "GOD" (KAL, i.e.
                        Satan, Devil) that all of the other religions
                        in the world worship!

                        Religions, Eckankar included, have dogma
                        consisting of laws, rules (spoken and unspoken),
                        guidelines and procedures, training requirements,
                        policies, and expected/acceptable behaviours.
                        And, all use fear and other intimidation tactics
                        on their followers. Thus, Silence or else all future
                        initiations will be withheld. Most H.I.s know
                        this and that there is no real discussion or
                        other P.O.V.s accepted. Hierarchy means that
                        there is NO individualism and democracy.
                        Klemp pointed this out in the mid-1980s
                        when he created the RESA Hierarchy.

                        Thus, the following HK quote is B.S. and
                        double-talk:

                        HK: "And this is what the path of ECK is all about.
                        Walking the path to God. Even more, it's about
                        walking your path to God. Because your path is
                        not my path."

                        ME: Correct! Klemp is the LEM/Mahanta who
                        controls initiation levels and writes guidelines
                        for members to follow. And, if you don't pay
                        that annual membership money you can lose
                        initiations and your level/plane of consciousness
                        and your place in ECK the "Heavens."

                        HK: "And my path is not yours. But that's
                        OK."

                        ME: Well, I'm not so sure that it's "OK."
                        Most Eckists would like to be, at least,
                        a 12th Initiate if not higher. Isn't that
                        the goal... to become a 12th (ECK Master)
                        because that equates to God-Realization!
                        And, what ever happened to "In this
                        lifetime" promise?

                        HK: "Because when God made you, he made
                        a unique being. You are Soul. You are Soul.
                        That's the identity behind your name. Behind
                        your physical form. Behind the ... of your face.
                        You are made in God's image! And it's an image
                        of Divine love."

                        ME: Don't all religions say the same thing more
                        or less? What's the catch? There has to be one
                        for Soul to need Klemp. Is HK saying that Soul
                        was made in his (HK's) image (God's)? Klemp
                        didn't show anything close to Divine Love towards
                        Darwin. Klemp still hasn't mentioned Darwin's
                        death to the EK Membership let alone speak some
                        kind words. What kind of "Divine Love" is this
                        when one can't forgive another? See! Klemp's
                        words are empty! He's a hypocrite and two faced!

                        HK: "BUT remember, you are made in God's
                        image. So is your neighbor. And so am I. And
                        so the respect that you would give to the one
                        you most love. And when I say the one you most
                        love, it can be a person, animal, place or thing.
                        Whoever you give the most love to, if you can
                        have that same love for yourself. Then you are
                        recognizing yourself as this holy, divine light of
                        God, that you are. That's what the path of ECK
                        is about."

                        ME: Klemp must hate himself if he actually
                        believes what he's said here! What about
                        Service and Surrender? How does that work
                        when you're just seeing yourself as "holy"
                        and "Divine?"

                        Plus, look at how Klemp disrespected Darwin
                        Gross, the 972nd LEM and Mahanta (in training),
                        who was the guy that initiated him as the
                        LEM of Eckankar! It's amazing that Klemp
                        has the nerve to say all of this with a straight
                        face (except for his crooked "Dick Chaney"
                        like smirks).

                        I can, also, see why Klemp was laughing
                        at all of the suckers in the audience who
                        were mindlessly hanging onto his every
                        word. Apparently they're both gullible and
                        desperate enough to believe his Bull Sh_t
                        and are incapable of connecting-the-dots
                        with critical thinking, or by recalling Eckankar's
                        history and those 10 missing years (1971-81)
                        with all of those higher initiations given
                        out to HK as well.

                        If ECKists are the advanced Souls they
                        imagine themselves to be, and as Klemp
                        is telling them and their egos, then Why
                        do they need Klemp and Eckankar?

                        These Eckists (Souls) should just use
                        Twitchell's two 40 year old Shariyats,
                        as reference books, and proceed on
                        their own private/personal unique "path"
                        as Cliff Hanger Mahantas!

                        Take what Klemp said at face value...
                        literally! Of course, that's not what
                        he really meant, or else there wouldn't
                        be a Church and/or a Hierarchy. Thus,
                        he was lying and using these words
                        as a diversion as all religions do. In
                        the retail world it's called Bait and
                        Switch. Advertise one thing and sell
                        something else! It happens everyday
                        throughout the world.

                        Everyone should BE their own Religion/
                        Path! Pay yourself and donate to yourself!
                        Serve and Surrender to Soul (yourself)
                        not another fake "spiritual" know-it-all!
                        All Religions are KAL "tests" for Soul!
                        What does it take for ECKists (people)
                        to see it? One can still have all, and more,
                        that they promise by eliminating the
                        middlemen! Middlemen were created
                        by KAL

                        Prometheus



                        etznab wrote:
                        >
                        > Jonathan & All,
                        >
                        > I took the time to watch the YouTube video and are
                        > really glad to have found the quote.
                        >
                        > In this post here, the section Jonathan illustrated
                        > appears to be correct, and I want to thank others
                        > who provided information about what book it app-
                        > eared in. This way I can now record the time, the
                        > place and the words that were spoken on the sub-
                        > ject.
                        >
                        > The quote confirms to me something about the
                        > saying "Everybody has their own Eckankar" and
                        > how that might have developed. However, I'm not
                        > so sure that the idea didn't already exist before
                        > the seminar where Harold Klemp said [this was
                        > based on my impression of the Y.T. video]:
                        >
                        > *******************************************************
                        >
                        > And this is what the path of ECK is all about.
                        > Walking the path to God. Even more, it's about
                        > walking your path to God. Because your path is
                        > not my path. And my path is not yours. But that's
                        > OK. Because when God made you, he made a
                        > unique being. You are Soul. You are Soul. That's
                        > the identity behind your name. Behind your physical
                        > form. Behind the ... of your face. You are made in
                        > God's image! And it's an image of Divine love. But
                        > remember, you are made in God's image. So is
                        > your neighbor. And so am I. And so the respect
                        > that you would give to the one you most love. And
                        > when I say the one you most love, it can be a
                        > person, animal, place or thing. Whoever you give
                        > the most love to, if you can have that same love
                        > for yourself. Then you are recognizing yourself as
                        > this holy, divine light of God, that you are. That's
                        > what the path of ECK is about.
                        >
                        > *******************************************************
                        >
                        > I can see both the points made by Jonathan and
                        > also by Prometheus. Thanks for sharing what you
                        > did on this subject. And thank you Mish for the p.
                        > numbers and the book.
                        >
                        > Etznab
                        Jonathan wrote:
                        > All,
                        >
                        > I am continuing the discussion which occurred in the following thread:
                        >
                        > Prometheus:
                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/5210
                        >
                        > then my follow-up:
                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/5211
                        >
                        > In that thread, I got into somewhat of a disagreement with Prometheus
                        > because I said that I had no problem with what Klemp said in the
                        > following video. I don't want people to get triggered by watching Klemp
                        > so I will summarize the first part of the video.
                        >
                        > "ECKANKAR Religion: What's It Really About?"
                        > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fISUxkDbW-Q
                        >
                        > HK "And this is what the path of Eck is all about. Walking the path to
                        > God. Even more, it's about walking YOUR path to God. Because your path
                        > is not my path. And my path is not yours. But that's OK."
                        >
                        > What I said about Klemps words in this video was "I like what he said.
                        > There's nothing wrong with it." I guess what I should have said was "On
                        > the surface of things, Klemp's words seemed perfectly OK to me." Also,
                        > no matter what I said or meant I didn't mean it as an endorsement of
                        > Eckankar.
                        >
                        > Promethus pointed out, what Klemp says and what really happens in a
                        > person's experience in Eckankar are two different things:
                        >
                        > Prometheus "There's a lot wrong with Klemp's
                        > "message." It's deceitful and misleading!
                        > It's misleading when HK states,
                        > "My path isn't yours and yours isn't
                        > mine." That's double-talk and is not
                        > how Eckankar works! It's not what
                        > the Eckankar church is all about and
                        > it's not an individual's "path" nor is
                        > it Klemp's! He was talking about a
                        > "spiritual" path correct? It's Klemp's
                        > con/job and that's not spiritual!"
                        >
                        > I then followed up Promethus' statement by pointing out that my own
                        > experience in Eckankar was that
                        >
                        > Jonathan "When I was trying to follow my own path
                        > while still a member of Eckankar, there were way to
                        > many times that I was thinking to myself "Would
                        > Eckankar approve of this?" or "Would Harold approve
                        > ofthis?" So it is pretty difficult to truly follow your own
                        > path when you are constantly thinking that."
                        >
                        > I would like to take this conversation in a different direction. I can
                        > actually see why people join Eckankar based on what Klemp SAYS. And I
                        > guess that many of the people who join will eventually realize that
                        > their experience has turned out to be different than what Eckankar
                        > seemed to imply that it would be. That's what happened to me, and that
                        > is one of the reasons I quit Eckankar.
                        >
                        > Jonathan

                        Prometheus wrote:

                        Hello Jonathan,
                        I guess that I was still having trouble
                        with the statement that "there's nothing
                        wrong with it" when you were referring
                        to Klemp's "message" in the one video
                        of his seminar comments, especially,
                        when you, also, stated:

                        "I agree with you on the 'My path isn't
                        yours and yours isn't mine' statement.
                        It should be true in Eckankar, but it
                        really isn't." And, "Another issue that
                        may be at work here is that while I was
                        a member of Eckankar, I was so
                        programmed and hypnotized to believe
                        that everything Klemp said is true, I may
                        still be under that spell! and even now
                        I am unable to, in a sense, disagree with
                        him..."


                        I know that this issue is like beating
                        a dead horse, but let's face it there's
                        no way that I'm going to agree with
                        a "no harm" approach to Klemp's
                        hidden agenda and trickery. Just
                        because kind and generic wording
                        is spoken, softly, by a harmless looking
                        skinny and geeky old preacher man
                        doesn't mean that one should let their
                        guard down. That's what he wants
                        people to do! Klemp is as much,
                        if not more so, of a Black Magician
                        as he claimed Darwin to be! Some
                        of your comments point this out.

                        Thus, there really is something wrong
                        with "it," and the other "stuff!" Actually,
                        Klemp's trickery is one reason why
                        there are things wrong with the other
                        stuff, or things, that he has added.

                        Then again, much of Eckankar's
                        dogma came from other religions
                        (Ruhani Satsang and Radhasoami)
                        and these sources are flawed with
                        myth and lies, as well, and are intended
                        to be misleading and controlling too.

                        Therefore, I'll always have a problem
                        with someone saying that "there's
                        nothing wrong" with Klemp's empty
                        words and promises or that of any
                        religion that claims to be the "highest."
                        Just because HK gives comfort with
                        positive, bias, and/or embellished
                        "spiritual" stories (like other religions
                        do) based upon delusional or magical
                        thinking doesn't make it acceptable.
                        Nor does using one's ego as a distraction
                        from critical thinking by having EKists
                        focus upon the means (membership
                        money, training and service) of fulfilling
                        their desires for more initiations make
                        it right.

                        Cont.

                        > > Who was Klemp's audience when the
                        > > "Eckankar - What's It All About?" talk
                        > > was given? Was this at a seminar where
                        > > all but 100 people were Eckists?
                        > >
                        > > It's important to know who the audience
                        > > is when Klemp states, "My path isn't
                        > > your path and your path isn't mine."
                        > > Was this talk, originally, for chelas
                        > > and H.I.s, as well as, 100 non-Eckists?
                        > >
                        > > What would Klemp mean if his talk
                        > > was for both groups, Eckists and non-
                        > > Eckists? Since the non-Eckists attending
                        > > the seminar believe in either a 2nd or
                        > > 4th Plane "God" (according to Klemp
                        > > in his Autobiography, page 385) then
                        > > I can see what Klemp's meaning was.
                        > > His "path" is to con people into believing
                        > > that he's 10 levels or Planes (as the 14th
                        > > Plane Mahanta) above the "God" (of various
                        > > names) that every other religion worships!
                        > > Therefore, their "path" isn't his. That's
                        > > logical.
                        > >
                        > > However, what does HK mean when
                        > > he's speaking to Eckists and states,
                        > > "My path isn't your path and yours isn't
                        > > mine?"
                        > >
                        > > Is everyone via individual Karma and
                        > > Grace on their own individual path and
                        > > are, therefore, not connected to any
                        > > specific path due to an unwritten Spiritual
                        > > Law? If that's true then what's the purpose
                        > > of Eckankar except to prevent people from
                        > > following their own true private/individual
                        > > path?
                        > >
                        > > It seems that Eckankar is just another
                        > > myth/fiction based religion designed to
                        > > confuse people, keep them off-balance,
                        > > second-guessing and imagining whatever
                        > > they want and/or need. Klemp will take
                        > > credit for everything good while the bad
                        > > is either "karma" (for lower initiates) or a
                        > > "test" (for higher initiates). He also takes
                        > > their money and time via "service" while
                        > > giving them false hope, false beliefs and
                        > > unfulfilled promises. Initiations are dangled
                        > > over their heads with promises of higher
                        > > levels of heaven. But the high initiation
                        > > ranks also provide power and prestige
                        > > for the meek and weak, and the bullies!
                        > >
                        > > By making EK initiations seem more special
                        > > with ancient and invisible (living) masters
                        > > that their previous religion lacked it becomes
                        > > a more special and unique item to possess.
                        > > Eckankar, also, has an Eastern religious
                        > > bent with New Age philosophy (holistic/
                        > > alternative medicine beliefs thrown into
                        > > the mix) and this makes it enticing and
                        > > comfortable to many who have, also,
                        > > become disillusioned and mistrustful of
                        > > orthodox medicine.

                        More cont.

                        > > Allow me to rant some-
                        > > I don't quite agree with your comments
                        > > in regard to Klemp's video message
                        > > of "Eckankar- What's It All Really About"
                        > > when you state, "I like what he said.
                        > > There's nothing wrong with it."
                        > >
                        > > There's a lot wrong with Klemp's
                        > > "message." It's deceitful and misleading!
                        > > It's misleading when HK states,
                        > > "My path isn't yours and yours isn't
                        > > mine." That's double-talk and is not
                        > > how Eckankar works! It's not what
                        > > the Eckankar church is all about and
                        > > it's not an individual's "path" nor is
                        > > it Klemp's! He was talking about a
                        > > "spiritual" path correct? It's Klemp's
                        > > con/job and that's not spiritual!
                        > >
                        > > Or, if one would agree that it's all
                        > > part of the Divine Plan to have religious
                        > > traps like Eckankar and that it's a
                        > > "test" for Soul then, in a sense, it is
                        > > a lower "path" that Klemp is following.
                        > > But, I don't think that Klemp wanted
                        > > to be truthful with people. That's not
                        > > how it would work it can't be too easy!
                        > > The only question I have is whether
                        > > or not Klemp knows that he's a KAL
                        > > agent and is working with the lower
                        > > (negative) forces of EK?
                        > >
                        > > Let's face it, Eckankar is Klemp's
                        > > vocation and retirement plan that
                        > > he inherited through his own manipulations
                        > > and dirty tricks!
                        > >
                        > > That statement of HK's, "My path
                        > > isn't yours and yours isn't mine"
                        > > is to disarm people in order to
                        > > build trust. It Does Not describe
                        > > how Eckankar really works does it?
                        > > Klemp's path or way (the low-way),
                        > > however, is not the highway except
                        > > for those who decide to leave the
                        > > broken promises and trickery of
                        > > yet another religion behind.
                        > >
                        > > Most former Eckists have chosen
                        > > a Higher way! There is no individual
                        > > path within Eckankar because everything
                        > > is controlled by Klemp via his many
                        > > guises/disguises. Eckankar is not
                        > > a "path." It's a religion that has a lot
                        > > of dirty laundry, rules (many hidden),
                        > > laws, guidelines, dogma, and a hierarchy.
                        > > A "path" doesn't have all of that crap
                        > > littering the way. All of that religious
                        > > clutter just causes people to trip and
                        > > fall more easily.

                        Cont.

                        > > > IMO, The "Golden-Tongued Wisdom,"
                        > > > test, heard in this KERNWATCH Mass
                        > > > Marketing video was placed there by
                        > > > Divine Spirit (versus Klemp's, lower,
                        > > > KAL version of ECK). It's obvious, to
                        > > > me, that this other video was subconsciously
                        > > > and/or divinely placed on YouTube,
                        > > > along with Klemp's videos, by this ESC
                        > > > staffer. This is a "Waking Dream" alert
                        > > > for all ECKists to notice and understand.
                        > > >
                        1. Frank Kern Mass Control Marketing - KERNWATCH
                        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFxGYFAU7KA
                        > > >
                        > > > I watched parts of Klemp's videos and it's
                        > > > interesting seeing the way he purses his
                        > > > lips before sounding the word. And he
                        > > > intentionally speaks very softly and in a
                        > > > hypnotic manner to his tired audience.
                        > > > It's no wonder he puts so many people
                        > > > to sleep or in a trance state, but maybe
                        > > > that's his plan. I noticed, too, that Klemp
                        > > > seemed to look constipated as he was
                        > > > trying to get his words out.
                        > > >
                        > > > In the video titled, "What's It Really About?"
                        > > > Klemp states, "My path isn't yours and yours
                        > > > isn't mine" and then he gives a little smirk
                        > > > like smile as though he was congratulating
                        > > > himself for his double-speak. GW did the
                        > > > same! Klemp's talks always leaves them
                        > > > second guessing and confused as to what
                        > > > he actually said. Thus, comes the use of the
                        > > > Eckists' imaginations and dreams to make
                        > > > sense of it all... except it might not be right
                        > > > even if you use a "charged word" and HU first!
                        > > > Thus, EKists needs to have verification via
                        > > > a snail-mail response from Klemp. Inner
                        > > > verification cannot be verified on the outer!
                        > > > Catch-22!
                        > > >
                        > > > BTW, I also noticed that Klemp tends to close
                        > > > his eyes a lot. Isn't that a sign that indicates
                        > > > a person is lying? I think so!
                        > > >
                        > > > I think the "What's It Really About?" video,
                        > > > that I mentioned above, is on this site:
                        > > >
                        http://www.youtube.com/user/EckankarOfficialSite
                        > > >
                        > > > Check out Rev. Harry for yourself.

                        Prometheus
                      • prometheus_973
                        I just reread what Klemp said in his seminar/video, Eckankar - What s it Really About, and it gave me some new insights into the mind of the Klempster.
                        Message 11 of 11 , Feb 22, 2010
                          I just reread what Klemp said in
                          his seminar/video, "Eckankar -
                          What's it Really About," and it
                          gave me some new insights
                          into the mind of the Klempster.
                          Actually, in many ways, it reconfirms
                          my opinion that Klemp is harboring
                          past anger and resentments.

                          Let's face it, HK's still a social
                          misfit and a recluse, due to his
                          arrested development and other
                          mental aberrations Klemp never
                          learned how to love!

                          One has to experience human love
                          before they can experience the
                          Selflessness and Divine Love.

                          Instead, Klemp teaches denial via
                          detachment. With the removal of
                          feelings one cannot experience the
                          warmth and depth of true love. Love
                          for an individual or humanity is lacking.
                          Thus, one cannot acquire the Knowledge
                          of Divine Love.

                          It begins with loving oneself, but not
                          too much, as is the case with a narcissist
                          like Klemp. It appears to me that Klemp
                          is incapable of having empathy! Thus,
                          he hasn't been able to actually "love"
                          others. Sure, he can use or say the words,
                          but that just takes practice... it's a con.
                          And, words have two meanings, or more,
                          which works to his advantage!

                          Anyway here's the quote:

                          HK: "BUT remember, you are made in God's
                          image. So is your neighbor. And so am I. And
                          so the respect that you would give to the one
                          you most love. And when I say the one you most
                          love, it can be a person, animal, place or thing.
                          Whoever you give the most love to, if you can
                          have that same love for yourself. Then you are
                          recognizing yourself as this holy, divine light of
                          God, that you are. That's what the path of ECK
                          is about."

                          As I stated before, where is the "love" and
                          "respect," or forgiveness, for Darwin? Where's
                          the empathy? Talk is cheap for Klemp! It's
                          misdirection too!

                          But, what caught my attention, the second
                          time around, was this:

                          "And when I say the one you most love,
                          it can be a person, animal, place or thing."

                          Klemp is equating the same "love" that
                          you would give or feel towards a "person"
                          (i.e. a wife, husband, mother, father, son,
                          daughter, grandchildren, etc.) as being the
                          SAME that you would give/have: for a rat,
                          "animal;" Starbucks, "place;" "or a thing"
                          (fill-in the blank).

                          This isn't taking his words out-of-context!
                          Did Klemp misspeak? Did he really mean
                          this or should we second-guess him as
                          ECKists tend to do so often? Really, is this
                          what he meant? Let's take it at face value
                          and say that, in this case, he meant what
                          he said.

                          Maybe it's no wonder, then, that Klemp
                          didn't attend his father's funeral in October,
                          1971. Instead HK attended Darwin's coronation
                          as LEM and stated, about the funeral, "Let
                          the dead bury the dead." And, then, many
                          initiations and years later (about 37 years)
                          Klemp still can't mention Darwin's death in
                          March, 2008 or say anything nice about him.
                          Perhaps Klemp is telling ECKists to do the
                          same, at his death, with him and his works!

                          Still, what about love? It's no wonder that
                          ECKists have such a distorted and narrow
                          minded view of love considering Klemp's
                          negative and inept example. This is what
                          ECKists are learning to emulate and place
                          into their "spiritual tool boxes!"

                          Prometheus


                          Prometheus wrote:
                          Hello All,
                          The point I was trying to make is that
                          when one joins a religion he/she gives
                          up being on an individual "path." For
                          everybody to have their own "Eckankar"
                          is to live in denial and with delusion!
                          Religion is a group situation or "Road."
                          It's not unique or individual, nor is it
                          a "path!"

                          When one agrees to become a member
                          of a Religion they usually don't realize
                          that they're also agreeing to follow
                          hidden or unknown mandatory requirements.
                          Usually these are presented to the
                          follower in increments until they are
                          fully indoctrinated, within the Hierarchy,
                          with the group consciousness and the
                          group rules, expectations, etc.

                          Also, all religions require their members
                          (clergy included) to behave and respond
                          in a certain manner. They are like robots
                          and can be programmed and reprogrammed
                          to fit the need or situation!

                          EK Members are to look to, follow, dream
                          of and even emulate the leader in everything
                          they do. This is to be the followers' primary
                          focus. Remember, Klemp is the LEM and
                          14th Plane Mahanta. Both of Klemp's
                          Outer and Inner positions (according to
                          his Autobiography, pg. 385) are higher
                          than the 2nd or 4th Plane "GOD" (KAL, i.e.
                          Satan, Devil) that all of the other religions
                          in the world worship!

                          Religions, Eckankar included, have dogma
                          consisting of laws, rules (spoken and unspoken),
                          guidelines and procedures, training requirements,
                          policies, and expected/acceptable behaviours.
                          And, all use fear and other intimidation tactics
                          on their followers. Thus, Silence or else all future
                          initiations will be withheld. Most H.I.s know
                          this and that there is no real discussion or
                          other P.O.V.s accepted. Hierarchy means that
                          there is NO individualism and democracy.
                          Klemp pointed this out in the mid-1980s
                          when he created the RESA Hierarchy.

                          Thus, the following HK quote is B.S. and
                          double-talk:

                          HK: "And this is what the path of ECK is all about.
                          Walking the path to God. Even more, it's about
                          walking your path to God. Because your path is
                          not my path."

                          ME: Correct! Klemp is the LEM/Mahanta who
                          controls initiation levels and writes guidelines
                          for members to follow. And, if you don't pay
                          that annual membership money you can lose
                          initiations and your level/plane of consciousness
                          and your place in ECK the "Heavens."

                          HK: "And my path is not yours. But that's
                          OK."

                          ME: Well, I'm not so sure that it's "OK."
                          Most Eckists would like to be, at least,
                          a 12th Initiate if not higher. Isn't that
                          the goal... to become a 12th (ECK Master)
                          because that equates to God-Realization!
                          And, what ever happened to "In this
                          lifetime" promise?

                          HK: "Because when God made you, he made
                          a unique being. You are Soul. You are Soul.
                          That's the identity behind your name. Behind
                          your physical form. Behind the ... of your face.
                          You are made in God's image! And it's an image
                          of Divine love."

                          ME: Don't all religions say the same thing more
                          or less? What's the catch? There has to be one
                          for Soul to need Klemp. Is HK saying that Soul
                          was made in his (HK's) image (God's)? Klemp
                          didn't show anything close to Divine Love towards
                          Darwin. Klemp still hasn't mentioned Darwin's
                          death to the EK Membership let alone speak some
                          kind words. What kind of "Divine Love" is this
                          when one can't forgive another? See! Klemp's
                          words are empty! He's a hypocrite and two faced!

                          HK: "BUT remember, you are made in God's
                          image. So is your neighbor. And so am I. And
                          so the respect that you would give to the one
                          you most love. And when I say the one you most
                          love, it can be a person, animal, place or thing.
                          Whoever you give the most love to, if you can
                          have that same love for yourself. Then you are
                          recognizing yourself as this holy, divine light of
                          God, that you are. That's what the path of ECK
                          is about."

                          ME: Klemp must hate himself if he actually
                          believes what he's said here! What about
                          Service and Surrender? How does that work
                          when you're just seeing yourself as "holy"
                          and "Divine?"

                          Plus, look at how Klemp disrespected Darwin
                          Gross, the 972nd LEM and Mahanta (in training),
                          who was the guy that initiated him as the
                          LEM of Eckankar! It's amazing that Klemp
                          has the nerve to say all of this with a straight
                          face (except for his crooked "Dick Chaney"
                          like smirks).

                          I can, also, see why Klemp was laughing
                          at all of the suckers in the audience who
                          were mindlessly hanging onto his every
                          word. Apparently they're both gullible and
                          desperate enough to believe his Bull Sh_t
                          and are incapable of connecting-the-dots
                          with critical thinking, or by recalling Eckankar's
                          history and those 10 missing years (1971-81)
                          with all of those higher initiations given
                          out to HK as well.

                          If ECKists are the advanced Souls they
                          imagine themselves to be, and as Klemp
                          is telling them and their egos, then Why
                          do they need Klemp and Eckankar?

                          These Eckists (Souls) should just use
                          Twitchell's two 40 year old Shariyats,
                          as reference books, and proceed on
                          their own private/personal unique "path"
                          as Cliff Hanger Mahantas!

                          Take what Klemp said at face value...
                          literally! Of course, that's not what
                          he really meant, or else there wouldn't
                          be a Church and/or a Hierarchy. Thus,
                          he was lying and using these words
                          as a diversion as all religions do. In
                          the retail world it's called Bait and
                          Switch. Advertise one thing and sell
                          something else! It happens everyday
                          throughout the world.

                          Everyone should BE their own Religion/
                          Path! Pay yourself and donate to yourself!
                          Serve and Surrender to Soul (yourself)
                          not another fake "spiritual" know-it-all!
                          All Religions are KAL "tests" for Soul!
                          What does it take for ECKists (people)
                          to see it? One can still have all, and more,
                          that they promise by eliminating the
                          middlemen! Middlemen were created
                          by KAL

                          Prometheus



                          etznab wrote:
                          >
                          > Jonathan & All,
                          >
                          > I took the time to watch the YouTube video and are
                          > really glad to have found the quote.
                          >
                          > In this post here, the section Jonathan illustrated
                          > appears to be correct, and I want to thank others
                          > who provided information about what book it app-
                          > eared in. This way I can now record the time, the
                          > place and the words that were spoken on the sub-
                          > ject.
                          >
                          > The quote confirms to me something about the
                          > saying "Everybody has their own Eckankar" and
                          > how that might have developed. However, I'm not
                          > so sure that the idea didn't already exist before
                          > the seminar where Harold Klemp said [this was
                          > based on my impression of the Y.T. video]:
                          >
                          > *******************************************************
                          >
                          > And this is what the path of ECK is all about.
                          > Walking the path to God. Even more, it's about
                          > walking your path to God. Because your path is
                          > not my path. And my path is not yours. But that's
                          > OK. Because when God made you, he made a
                          > unique being. You are Soul. You are Soul. That's
                          > the identity behind your name. Behind your physical
                          > form. Behind the ... of your face. You are made in
                          > God's image! And it's an image of Divine love. But
                          > remember, you are made in God's image. So is
                          > your neighbor. And so am I. And so the respect
                          > that you would give to the one you most love. And
                          > when I say the one you most love, it can be a
                          > person, animal, place or thing. Whoever you give
                          > the most love to, if you can have that same love
                          > for yourself. Then you are recognizing yourself as
                          > this holy, divine light of God, that you are. That's
                          > what the path of ECK is about.
                          >
                          > *******************************************************
                          >
                          > I can see both the points made by Jonathan and
                          > also by Prometheus. Thanks for sharing what you
                          > did on this subject. And thank you Mish for the p.
                          > numbers and the book.
                          >
                          > Etznab
                          Jonathan wrote:
                          > All,
                          >
                          > I am continuing the discussion which occurred in the following thread:
                          >
                          > Prometheus:
                          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/5210
                          >
                          > then my follow-up:
                          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/5211
                          >
                          > In that thread, I got into somewhat of a disagreement with Prometheus
                          > because I said that I had no problem with what Klemp said in the
                          > following video. I don't want people to get triggered by watching Klemp
                          > so I will summarize the first part of the video.
                          >
                          > "ECKANKAR Religion: What's It Really About?"
                          > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fISUxkDbW-Q
                          >
                          > HK "And this is what the path of Eck is all about. Walking the path to
                          > God. Even more, it's about walking YOUR path to God. Because your path
                          > is not my path. And my path is not yours. But that's OK."
                          >
                          > What I said about Klemps words in this video was "I like what he said.
                          > There's nothing wrong with it." I guess what I should have said was "On
                          > the surface of things, Klemp's words seemed perfectly OK to me." Also,
                          > no matter what I said or meant I didn't mean it as an endorsement of
                          > Eckankar.
                          >
                          > Promethus pointed out, what Klemp says and what really happens in a
                          > person's experience in Eckankar are two different things:
                          >
                          > Prometheus "There's a lot wrong with Klemp's
                          > "message." It's deceitful and misleading!
                          > It's misleading when HK states,
                          > "My path isn't yours and yours isn't
                          > mine." That's double-talk and is not
                          > how Eckankar works! It's not what
                          > the Eckankar church is all about and
                          > it's not an individual's "path" nor is
                          > it Klemp's! He was talking about a
                          > "spiritual" path correct? It's Klemp's
                          > con/job and that's not spiritual!"
                          >
                          > I then followed up Promethus' statement by pointing out that my own
                          > experience in Eckankar was that
                          >
                          > Jonathan "When I was trying to follow my own path
                          > while still a member of Eckankar, there were way to
                          > many times that I was thinking to myself "Would
                          > Eckankar approve of this?" or "Would Harold approve
                          > ofthis?" So it is pretty difficult to truly follow your own
                          > path when you are constantly thinking that."
                          >
                          > I would like to take this conversation in a different direction. I can
                          > actually see why people join Eckankar based on what Klemp SAYS. And I
                          > guess that many of the people who join will eventually realize that
                          > their experience has turned out to be different than what Eckankar
                          > seemed to imply that it would be. That's what happened to me, and that
                          > is one of the reasons I quit Eckankar.
                          >
                          > Jonathan

                          Prometheus wrote:

                          Hello Jonathan,
                          I guess that I was still having trouble
                          with the statement that "there's nothing
                          wrong with it" when you were referring
                          to Klemp's "message" in the one video
                          of his seminar comments, especially,
                          when you, also, stated:

                          "I agree with you on the 'My path isn't
                          yours and yours isn't mine' statement.
                          It should be true in Eckankar, but it
                          really isn't." And, "Another issue that
                          may be at work here is that while I was
                          a member of Eckankar, I was so
                          programmed and hypnotized to believe
                          that everything Klemp said is true, I may
                          still be under that spell! and even now
                          I am unable to, in a sense, disagree with
                          him..."


                          I know that this issue is like beating
                          a dead horse, but let's face it there's
                          no way that I'm going to agree with
                          a "no harm" approach to Klemp's
                          hidden agenda and trickery. Just
                          because kind and generic wording
                          is spoken, softly, by a harmless looking
                          skinny and geeky old preacher man
                          doesn't mean that one should let their
                          guard down. That's what he wants
                          people to do! Klemp is as much,
                          if not more so, of a Black Magician
                          as he claimed Darwin to be! Some
                          of your comments point this out.

                          Thus, there really is something wrong
                          with "it," and the other "stuff!" Actually,
                          Klemp's trickery is one reason why
                          there are things wrong with the other
                          stuff, or things, that he has added.

                          Then again, much of Eckankar's
                          dogma came from other religions
                          (Ruhani Satsang and Radhasoami)
                          and these sources are flawed with
                          myth and lies, as well, and are intended
                          to be misleading and controlling too.

                          Therefore, I'll always have a problem
                          with someone saying that "there's
                          nothing wrong" with Klemp's empty
                          words and promises or that of any
                          religion that claims to be the "highest."
                          Just because HK gives comfort with
                          positive, bias, and/or embellished
                          "spiritual" stories (like other religions
                          do) based upon delusional or magical
                          thinking doesn't make it acceptable.
                          Nor does using one's ego as a distraction
                          from critical thinking by having EKists
                          focus upon the means (membership
                          money, training and service) of fulfilling
                          their desires for more initiations make
                          it right.

                          Cont.

                          > > Who was Klemp's audience when the
                          > > "Eckankar - What's It All About?" talk
                          > > was given? Was this at a seminar where
                          > > all but 100 people were Eckists?
                          > >
                          > > It's important to know who the audience
                          > > is when Klemp states, "My path isn't
                          > > your path and your path isn't mine."
                          > > Was this talk, originally, for chelas
                          > > and H.I.s, as well as, 100 non-Eckists?
                          > >
                          > > What would Klemp mean if his talk
                          > > was for both groups, Eckists and non-
                          > > Eckists? Since the non-Eckists attending
                          > > the seminar believe in either a 2nd or
                          > > 4th Plane "God" (according to Klemp
                          > > in his Autobiography, page 385) then
                          > > I can see what Klemp's meaning was.
                          > > His "path" is to con people into believing
                          > > that he's 10 levels or Planes (as the 14th
                          > > Plane Mahanta) above the "God" (of various
                          > > names) that every other religion worships!
                          > > Therefore, their "path" isn't his. That's
                          > > logical.
                          > >
                          > > However, what does HK mean when
                          > > he's speaking to Eckists and states,
                          > > "My path isn't your path and yours isn't
                          > > mine?"
                          > >
                          > > Is everyone via individual Karma and
                          > > Grace on their own individual path and
                          > > are, therefore, not connected to any
                          > > specific path due to an unwritten Spiritual
                          > > Law? If that's true then what's the purpose
                          > > of Eckankar except to prevent people from
                          > > following their own true private/individual
                          > > path?
                          > >
                          > > It seems that Eckankar is just another
                          > > myth/fiction based religion designed to
                          > > confuse people, keep them off-balance,
                          > > second-guessing and imagining whatever
                          > > they want and/or need. Klemp will take
                          > > credit for everything good while the bad
                          > > is either "karma" (for lower initiates) or a
                          > > "test" (for higher initiates). He also takes
                          > > their money and time via "service" while
                          > > giving them false hope, false beliefs and
                          > > unfulfilled promises. Initiations are dangled
                          > > over their heads with promises of higher
                          > > levels of heaven. But the high initiation
                          > > ranks also provide power and prestige
                          > > for the meek and weak, and the bullies!
                          > >
                          > > By making EK initiations seem more special
                          > > with ancient and invisible (living) masters
                          > > that their previous religion lacked it becomes
                          > > a more special and unique item to possess.
                          > > Eckankar, also, has an Eastern religious
                          > > bent with New Age philosophy (holistic/
                          > > alternative medicine beliefs thrown into
                          > > the mix) and this makes it enticing and
                          > > comfortable to many who have, also,
                          > > become disillusioned and mistrustful of
                          > > orthodox medicine.

                          More cont.

                          > > Allow me to rant some-
                          > > I don't quite agree with your comments
                          > > in regard to Klemp's video message
                          > > of "Eckankar- What's It All Really About"
                          > > when you state, "I like what he said.
                          > > There's nothing wrong with it."
                          > >
                          > > There's a lot wrong with Klemp's
                          > > "message." It's deceitful and misleading!
                          > > It's misleading when HK states,
                          > > "My path isn't yours and yours isn't
                          > > mine." That's double-talk and is not
                          > > how Eckankar works! It's not what
                          > > the Eckankar church is all about and
                          > > it's not an individual's "path" nor is
                          > > it Klemp's! He was talking about a
                          > > "spiritual" path correct? It's Klemp's
                          > > con/job and that's not spiritual!
                          > >
                          > > Or, if one would agree that it's all
                          > > part of the Divine Plan to have religious
                          > > traps like Eckankar and that it's a
                          > > "test" for Soul then, in a sense, it is
                          > > a lower "path" that Klemp is following.
                          > > But, I don't think that Klemp wanted
                          > > to be truthful with people. That's not
                          > > how it would work it can't be too easy!
                          > > The only question I have is whether
                          > > or not Klemp knows that he's a KAL
                          > > agent and is working with the lower
                          > > (negative) forces of EK?
                          > >
                          > > Let's face it, Eckankar is Klemp's
                          > > vocation and retirement plan that
                          > > he inherited through his own manipulations
                          > > and dirty tricks!
                          > >
                          > > That statement of HK's, "My path
                          > > isn't yours and yours isn't mine"
                          > > is to disarm people in order to
                          > > build trust. It Does Not describe
                          > > how Eckankar really works does it?
                          > > Klemp's path or way (the low-way),
                          > > however, is not the highway except
                          > > for those who decide to leave the
                          > > broken promises and trickery of
                          > > yet another religion behind.
                          > >
                          > > Most former Eckists have chosen
                          > > a Higher way! There is no individual
                          > > path within Eckankar because everything
                          > > is controlled by Klemp via his many
                          > > guises/disguises. Eckankar is not
                          > > a "path." It's a religion that has a lot
                          > > of dirty laundry, rules (many hidden),
                          > > laws, guidelines, dogma, and a hierarchy.
                          > > A "path" doesn't have all of that crap
                          > > littering the way. All of that religious
                          > > clutter just causes people to trip and
                          > > fall more easily.

                          Cont.

                          > > > IMO, The "Golden-Tongued Wisdom,"
                          > > > test, heard in this KERNWATCH Mass
                          > > > Marketing video was placed there by
                          > > > Divine Spirit (versus Klemp's, lower,
                          > > > KAL version of ECK). It's obvious, to
                          > > > me, that this other video was subconsciously
                          > > > and/or divinely placed on YouTube,
                          > > > along with Klemp's videos, by this ESC
                          > > > staffer. This is a "Waking Dream" alert
                          > > > for all ECKists to notice and understand.
                          > > >
                          1. Frank Kern Mass Control Marketing - KERNWATCH
                          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFxGYFAU7KA
                          > > >
                          > > > I watched parts of Klemp's videos and it's
                          > > > interesting seeing the way he purses his
                          > > > lips before sounding the word. And he
                          > > > intentionally speaks very softly and in a
                          > > > hypnotic manner to his tired audience.
                          > > > It's no wonder he puts so many people
                          > > > to sleep or in a trance state, but maybe
                          > > > that's his plan. I noticed, too, that Klemp
                          > > > seemed to look constipated as he was
                          > > > trying to get his words out.
                          > > >
                          > > > In the video titled, "What's It Really About?"
                          > > > Klemp states, "My path isn't yours and yours
                          > > > isn't mine" and then he gives a little smirk
                          > > > like smile as though he was congratulating
                          > > > himself for his double-speak. GW did the
                          > > > same! Klemp's talks always leaves them
                          > > > second guessing and confused as to what
                          > > > he actually said. Thus, comes the use of the
                          > > > Eckists' imaginations and dreams to make
                          > > > sense of it all... except it might not be right
                          > > > even if you use a "charged word" and HU first!
                          > > > Thus, EKists needs to have verification via
                          > > > a snail-mail response from Klemp. Inner
                          > > > verification cannot be verified on the outer!
                          > > > Catch-22!
                          > > >
                          > > > BTW, I also noticed that Klemp tends to close
                          > > > his eyes a lot. Isn't that a sign that indicates
                          > > > a person is lying? I think so!
                          > > >
                          > > > I think the "What's It Really About?" video,
                          > > > that I mentioned above, is on this site:
                          > > >
                          http://www.youtube.com/user/EckankarOfficialSite
                          > > >
                          > > > Check out Rev. Harry for yourself.

                          Prometheus
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