Re: 3rd initiation to 5th initiation (not me) in 1980-1983 time frame
- Hello Ed and All,
Now that my memory of this has been
refreshed I do recall Klemp mentioning
people in Africa being promoted rapidly
due to the need for EK Leaders. I had
no idea as to how it was being done
and that initiations were being skipped!
HK would (and still) always say how
advanced and natural the Africans' beliefs
were. But, from what I've heard, there's
a lot of superstition, folk lore, and other
beliefs mixed in with the EK teachings.
Ed, can you share or elaborate on this?
Apparently HK's policy of this skipping
of initiations was a sin of omission on
Klemp's part. He knew that other EKists
wouldn't feel comfortable with this tactic.
HK never shared these details with the
membership. I guess that the general
membership didn't need to know how
he was conducting business since he
doesn't have to report to anyone for his
actions... like the Pope.
It just goes to show that the EK Initiations
can be manipulated for physical worldly
gains... more sales leaders.
It is hypocritical of Klemp to bring up
the fact that Paul promoted people
very rapidly to Higher Initiations due
to need when Eckankar was in the
early stages. Darwin did the same thing
early on and was never criticized for it.
When DG's and HK's conflict, in 1983,
was coming to a head Darwin promoted
500 EKists to the 5th initiation. The
problem was really with Klemp's ego.
Instead, Klemp made Darwin look like
the bad guy on this, too, because of
the other things that had taken place.
However, as I said before, IF Darwin
really was a Black Magician, as the nasty
Klempster claimed, that would mean
that those 500 EKists DG gave the 5th
to had actually been initiated, unknowingly,
into the Black Arts. Klemp claimed, at
the time, that viewing Darwin's picture
or reading his words could have psychic
influence over ECKists. Where was Klemp's
protection? This is why ECKists don't
usually read outside (unapproved) books
and info. Klemp has scared them from
doing so. But, where's the "protection"
from such things? Catch-22 again!
Anyway, let's not forget Klemp promoting
people in Europe rapidly as well. Plus,
after the schism in 1983-1984 Klemp
had gaps in EK leadership, due to H.I.s
leaving to follow Darwin, and thus
promoted his own group of H.I.s as fill-ins.
Once again, the promotions (initiations)
had nothing to do with Spiritual Growth.
Yes, it's interesting to discuss these
remembrances and piece together
information about the EK Initiations.
Klemp's cover-up and omissions on
his own policy of skipping initiations
is more proof that the initiations aren't
what ECKists imagine them to be.
The initiations are devalued when
the truth about how and why they
are manipulated becomes known.
Of course, the true blue EKist will
deny the truth. They need Eckankar
(religion) and will rationalize. They
turn a blind-eye to facts and to
critical thinking. They want to and
need to believe in Eckankar because
they don't have a replacement belief.
Also, Eckankar is convenient and like
all religions it "answers" our questions
with dogma that seems to make sense
at times. And, the promises (imaginings)
and dreams seem better than what other
religions seem to teach and offer. But,
that never ending "Service/Sales" crap
is the real turnoff! Well actually, Klemp
promoting his younger looking image
in "Tips for ECK Study" and on "The
Wisdom Notes" page is a real turn-off!
Ed Kusi wrote:
This 3-5th,and even 2-5th happened in
Africa too. | personally know five HIs in
one country who were jumped from 2nd
and 3rd to the 5th Initiation. It happened
in Darwin's time and the reasons given
were as already mentioned in related posts.
I just remembered something that
I heard back in the 80s from a
member of Klemp's EK Spiritual Council.
This 8th said that Harold needed to
make more H.I.s in Europe and that
he was making exceptions out of
necessity. And, HK had promoted
one person (a man), in Eastern Europe,
to the 9th. I never knew why this
9th initiation thing was/is such a
big secret. It's probably because
HK doesn't want to build up any
more expectations for those higher
initiations anymore than he has
already. That's why the "imagination"
pacifier is pushed onto H.I.s.
The only Catch to getting and keeping
the 9th lies with that individual Not telling
he/she is a 9th! However, this doesn't
prevent Klemp from sharing this info
with the membership. Twit more than
likely started the "no tell" rule because
he didn't want others to find out who
he had promoted, behind the backs
of his Spiritual Council, and be jealous.
Gail was probably a 9th as is Joan!
However, this "no tell" rule has been
expanded. No ECKists are supposed
to discuss (gossip about) the Ninth
Initiation openly.This is one reason
Klemp put this into the Masters 4 Discourse.
He got the speculation about the 9th
out of the way and at the same time
prevented any discussion of the matter
outside of The Master's 4 Satsang Class.
No ECKists are to discuss their discourses
outside of their Satsang Class! Plus,
Klemp has eliminated any other discussion,
second guessing, or questions and
speculation by referring to such as "gossip."
If any ECKist is reported for "gossiping"
any future initiations will be put on
hold. This is a fact that most long-time
H.I.s are well aware of. This is just another
fear tactic that Klemp uses to control his
flock and to keep them on task and sell
Eckankar! if Klemp had any true powers
or divine insight he wouldn't need his
spies, or the RESA police, or "stories"
mailed to him for use in his talks, books,
and EK publications.
Hello Ingrid and All,
Yes, I know Bettine Clemen (Ware) too.
I didn't know that about ECKists getting
several initiations in one day. Was that
during Paul's reign, or Darwin's or both?
I know that Klemp would never do that...
he's too stingy! And, HK's RESA hierarchy
can't deal with higher ranking H.I.s
residing within their Satsangs. Although,
Bob Lawton (Klemp's former body guard)
is both an 8th and a RESA. That's the only
exception, but it does set a precedent.
IMO- The Glass Ceiling for 7ths is unjustified.
Why isn't there a more proportionate number
of 8ths to 7ths?
And, since there ARE a few ECK 9th Initiates
lurking around why wouldn't that initiation
be the actual Glass Ceiling, thus, allowing
at least 500 8th Initiates.
Actually, why does Klemp have these Glass
Ceilings? It's because he's a narcissist and
doen't want to share. He's a two faced
hypocrite! He talks about love and compassion,
but Not forgiveness! Thus, he has never
mentioned Darwin's (972nd LEM) death
to the ECK Membership let alone say
something nice about the former ECK
Master. That was the "test" that Klemp
failed. And when he fails a test like that
it means that he, too, has fallen from Grace!
His attachment to Power keeps him on the
Anyway, If Klemp wanted to he could have
promoted two or three initiates to the 12th.
Not all 12ths have to be LEMs and not all LEMs
have to be Mahantas... right? Sure!
And, to insure that these 12ths wouldn't
threaten his reign HK could have made them
all females. In ECKankar females can't become
LEM/Mahantas due to law/science/ tradition
or whatever. Klemp is just an old tired ass
selfish, mean spirited and fearful fuddy duddy
stuck in the past.
Klemp's negative behaviour and lack of
compassion towards Darwin, and especially
his death, is proof that he is both a hypocrite
and a fraud. But, this is human/KAL behaviour
typical of all religions and their leaders.
Unfortunately, ECKists (the most advanced
Souls ever, LOL) have tunnel vision and blinders
on. They can only focus upon that carrot (the
promise of more initiations leading to God-
Realization) as they trot along doing Service,
Surrendering, HUing, spending money on EK
materials and seminars, taking more training,
following the Guidelines and acting "as if" the
lies of PT and HK are the ultimate truth. Such
is religious belief. It may feel good and give
you some hope, peace of mind and security,
but it's not Reality or Truth! It's just filler...
like Klemp's simple-minded redundant books!
In truth, all religions and their dogmas are
"tests" for the more "advanced" Souls. When
one is able to finally see the correlations and
the lies and beyond the "group think" then
one is able to see with more clarity and discard
all religion. The veils of illusion slowly disappear
until one can commune privately, one-to-one,
with Divine Spirit.
Soul doesn't need a LEM or Mahanta or
a Master or a priest, or a Pope to intervene
or guide them on the Outer or Inner Planes.
Of course, all religions (including Eckankar)
cannot tolerate such statements. This is
heresy! People are executed, even today,
by religionists who claim to love God.
But, why does God need to be protected?
Thus, those religionists who attack us,
and the Truth, are ignorant, fearful,
weak-minded followers, and are immature
Hi Jonathan and all,
my husband knew Bettine Clemen personally.
She once told him that either she or some people
she knew (I'm not sure) got the 3rd, 4th and 5th
initiations in one day - one or two in the morning
and the last one(s) in the afternoon!
At the time they needed a lot of higher initiates
as eckankar was still young. Now there are so
many HIs that they had to introduce a glass ceiling -
I guess that's why initiations are slowed down
It's all about administration and money, and power
of course ... :-))
>time frame to the discussion.
> I'm going to add a few "facts" from my personal experience in the 1980-1983
>Gross promoted 1000 Eckists to the 5th!" And then you followed it up with
> In your post just before the one I am responding to, you stated that "[Darwin]
"Ooops! I think that was 500 (not 1000) to the 5th, and around 1983 just before
being kicked out by Klemp!"
>Gross' time as the LEM. I believe it was around 1980/1981 that a member of
> I joined Eckanakar around 1979 so I got in on the last few years of Darwin
Eckankar, B.S., told me that he was promoted directly from 3rd initiate to 5th
initiate. In other words, he skipped his 4th initiation. This may have occurred
later, in the 1983 time frame, I really can't be certain, but this "3 to 5
initiation" was definitely done by Darwin.
>interesting thing is that I believe that both of these people had been in
> Also, I heard about one other person who went from 3rd to 5th. The really
Eckankar for less than 10 years. Eckankar started in 1965, so 15-18 years was
the absolute maximum time the person who spoke to me was in Eckankar. Plus, he
never spoke about Paul Twitchell, and I'm very certain he joined Eckankar after
Twitchell's death, making his maximum time in Eckankar about 10-13 years since
Darwin started in 1971. I honestly think that 7 to 8 years is a better estimate
of the time he was a member of Eckankar. He was only about 25 to 30 years old.
>his 4th initiation. I asked him how that happened. He gave me an explanation,
> By the way, regarding the person, B.S., who personally told me about skipping
but I don't remember what it was. I believe it had something to do with the fact
that he progressed spiritually so fast, he didn't need to "pause" at the fourth.
But he wasn't arrogant so he probably said something like "the ECK need to
progress people really fast."
>lot different now, with many members of Eckankar going almost 30 years without
> It has been mentioned in other posts on this message board that things are a
receiving their 5th initiation.
>out to people who didn't really deserve them. Of course, during the time when
> Years later, I did hear from a higher HI that Darwin gave a lot of initiations
Darwin was the LEM, whatever he did or didn't do was 100% accepted by Eckankar's
membership, but after he was kicked out, everything Darwin did or didn't do was
automatically suspect if not completely wrong.