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Re: 3rd initiation to 5th initiation (not me) in 1980-1983 time frame

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  • prometheus_973
    Hello All, I just remembered something that I heard back in the 80s from a member of Klemp s EK Spiritual Council. This 8th said that Harold needed to make
    Message 1 of 17 , Feb 1 2:03 PM
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      Hello All,
      I just remembered something that
      I heard back in the 80s from a
      member of Klemp's EK Spiritual Council.
      This 8th said that Harold needed to
      make more H.I.s in Europe and that
      he was making exceptions out of
      necessity. And, HK had promoted
      one person (a man), in Eastern Europe,
      to the 9th. I never knew why this
      9th initiation thing was/is such a
      big secret. It's probably because
      HK doesn't want to build up any
      more expectations for those higher
      initiations anymore than he has
      already. That's why the "imagination"
      pacifier is pushed onto H.I.s.

      The only Catch to getting and keeping
      the 9th lies with that individual Not telling
      he/she is a 9th! However, this doesn't
      prevent Klemp from sharing this info
      with the membership. Twit more than
      likely started the "no tell" rule because
      he didn't want others to find out who
      he had promoted, behind the backs
      of his Spiritual Council, and be jealous.
      Gail was probably a 9th as is Joan!

      However, this "no tell" rule has been
      expanded. No ECKists are supposed
      to discuss (gossip about) the Ninth
      Initiation openly.This is one reason
      Klemp put this into the Masters 4 Discourse.
      He got the speculation about the 9th
      out of the way and at the same time
      prevented any discussion of the matter
      outside of The Master's 4 Satsang Class.
      No ECKists are to discuss their discourses
      outside of their Satsang Class! Plus,
      Klemp has eliminated any other discussion,
      second guessing, or questions and
      speculation by referring to such as "gossip."
      If any ECKist is reported for "gossiping"
      any future initiations will be put on
      hold. This is a fact that most long-time
      H.I.s are well aware of. This is just another
      fear tactic that Klemp uses to control his
      flock and to keep them on task and sell
      Eckankar! if Klemp had any true powers
      or divine insight he wouldn't need his
      spies, or the RESA police, or "stories"
      mailed to him for use in his talks, books,
      and EK publications.


      prometheus wrote:

      Hello Ingrid and All,
      Yes, I know Bettine Clemen (Ware) too.
      I didn't know that about ECKists getting
      several initiations in one day. Was that
      during Paul's reign, or Darwin's or both?
      I know that Klemp would never do that...
      he's too stingy! And, HK's RESA hierarchy
      can't deal with higher ranking H.I.s
      residing within their Satsangs. Although,
      Bob Lawton (Klemp's former body guard)
      is both an 8th and a RESA. That's the only
      exception, but it does set a precedent.

      IMO- The Glass Ceiling for 7ths is unjustified.
      Why isn't there a more proportionate number
      of 8ths to 7ths?

      And, since there ARE a few ECK 9th Initiates
      lurking around why wouldn't that initiation
      be the actual Glass Ceiling, thus, allowing
      at least 500 8th Initiates.

      Actually, why does Klemp have these Glass
      Ceilings? It's because he's a narcissist and
      doen't want to share. He's a two faced
      hypocrite! He talks about love and compassion,
      but Not forgiveness! Thus, he has never
      mentioned Darwin's (972nd LEM) death
      to the ECK Membership let alone say
      something nice about the former ECK
      Master. That was the "test" that Klemp
      failed. And when he fails a test like that
      it means that he, too, has fallen from Grace!
      His attachment to Power keeps him on the
      throne.

      Anyway, If Klemp wanted to he could have
      promoted two or three initiates to the 12th.
      Not all 12ths have to be LEMs and not all LEMs
      have to be Mahantas... right? Sure!

      And, to insure that these 12ths wouldn't
      threaten his reign HK could have made them
      all females. In ECKankar females can't become
      LEM/Mahantas due to law/science/tradition
      or whatever. Klemp is just an old tired ass
      selfish, mean spirited and fearful fuddy duddy
      stuck in the past.

      Klemp's negative behaviour and lack of
      compassion towards Darwin, and especially
      his death, is proof that he is both a hypocrite
      and a fraud. But, this is human/KAL behaviour
      typical of all religions and their leaders.

      Unfortunately, ECKists (the most advanced
      Souls ever, LOL) have tunnel vision and blinders
      on. They can only focus upon that carrot (the
      promise of more initiations leading to God-
      Realization) as they trot along doing Service,
      Surrendering, HUing, spending money on EK
      materials and seminars, taking more training,
      following the Guidelines and acting "as if" the
      lies of PT and HK are the ultimate truth. Such
      is religious belief. It may feel good and give
      you some hope, peace of mind and security,
      but it's not Reality or Truth! It's just filler...
      like Klemp's simple-minded redundant books!

      In truth, all religions and their dogmas are
      "tests" for the more "advanced" Souls. When
      one is able to finally see the correlations and
      the lies and beyond the "group think" then
      one is able to see with more clarity and discard
      all religion. The veils of illusion slowly disappear
      until one can commune privately, one-to-one,
      with Divine Spirit.

      Soul doesn't need a LEM or Mahanta or
      a Master or a priest, or a Pope to intervene
      or guide them on the Outer or Inner Planes.
      Of course, all religions (including Eckankar)
      cannot tolerate such statements. This is
      heresy! People are executed, even today,
      by religionists who claim to love God.
      But, why does God need to be protected?

      Thus, those religionists who attack us,
      and the Truth, are ignorant, fearful,
      weak-minded followers, and are immature
      Souls.

      Prometheus


      ctecvie wrote:
      Hi Jonathan and all,

      my husband knew Bettine Clemen personally.
      She once told him that either she or some people
      she knew (I'm not sure) got the 3rd, 4th and 5th
      initiations in one day - one or two in the morning
      and the last one(s) in the afternoon!

      At the time they needed a lot of higher initiates
      as eckankar was still young. Now there are so
      many HIs that they had to introduce a glass ceiling -
      I guess that's why initiations are slowed down
      so much!

      It's all about administration and money, and power
      of course ... :-))

      Ingrid

      jonathanjohns wrote:
      >
      > Prometheus,
      >
      > I'm going to add a few "facts" from my personal experience in the 1980-1983
      time frame to the discussion.
      >
      > In your post just before the one I am responding to, you stated that "[Darwin]
      Gross promoted 1000 Eckists to the 5th!" And then you followed it up with
      "Ooops! I think that was 500 (not 1000) to the 5th, and around 1983 just before
      being kicked out by Klemp!"
      >
      > I joined Eckanakar around 1979 so I got in on the last few years of Darwin
      Gross' time as the LEM. I believe it was around 1980/1981 that a member of
      Eckankar, B.S., told me that he was promoted directly from 3rd initiate to 5th
      initiate. In other words, he skipped his 4th initiation. This may have occurred
      later, in the 1983 time frame, I really can't be certain, but this "3 to 5
      initiation" was definitely done by Darwin.
      >
      > Also, I heard about one other person who went from 3rd to 5th. The really
      interesting thing is that I believe that both of these people had been in
      Eckankar for less than 10 years. Eckankar started in 1965, so 15-18 years was
      the absolute maximum time the person who spoke to me was in Eckankar. Plus, he
      never spoke about Paul Twitchell, and I'm very certain he joined Eckankar after
      Twitchell's death, making his maximum time in Eckankar about 10-13 years since
      Darwin started in 1971. I honestly think that 7 to 8 years is a better estimate
      of the time he was a member of Eckankar. He was only about 25 to 30 years old.
      >
      > By the way, regarding the person, B.S., who personally told me about skipping
      his 4th initiation. I asked him how that happened. He gave me an explanation,
      but I don't remember what it was. I believe it had something to do with the fact
      that he progressed spiritually so fast, he didn't need to "pause" at the fourth.
      But he wasn't arrogant so he probably said something like "the ECK need to
      progress people really fast."
      >
      > It has been mentioned in other posts on this message board that things are a
      lot different now, with many members of Eckankar going almost 30 years without
      receiving their 5th initiation.
      >
      > Years later, I did hear from a higher HI that Darwin gave a lot of initiations
      out to people who didn't really deserve them. Of course, during the time when
      Darwin was the LEM, whatever he did or didn't do was 100% accepted by Eckankar's
      membership, but after he was kicked out, everything Darwin did or didn't do was
      automatically suspect if not completely wrong.
      >
      > Jonathan
    • Ed Kusi
      Hi All, This 3-5th,and even 2-5th happened in Africa too. | personally know five HIs in one country who were jumped from 2nd and 3rd to the 5th Initiation. It
      Message 2 of 17 , Feb 1 2:41 PM
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi All,
        This 3-5th,and even 2-5th happened in Africa too. | personally know five HIs in one country who were jumped from 2nd and 3rd to the 5th Initiation. It happened in Darwin's time and the reasons given were as already mentioned in related posts.

        Pretujari

        --- On Mon, 2/1/10, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: 3rd initiation to 5th initiation (not me) in 1980-1983 time frame
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Monday, February 1, 2010, 2:03 PM

         

        Hello All,
        I just remembered something that
        I heard back in the 80s from a
        member of Klemp's EK Spiritual Council.
        This 8th said that Harold needed to
        make more H.I.s in Europe and that
        he was making exceptions out of
        necessity. And, HK had promoted
        one person (a man), in Eastern Europe,
        to the 9th. I never knew why this
        9th initiation thing was/is such a
        big secret. It's probably because
        HK doesn't want to build up any
        more expectations for those higher
        initiations anymore than he has
        already. That's why the "imagination"
        pacifier is pushed onto H.I.s.

        The only Catch to getting and keeping
        the 9th lies with that individual Not telling
        he/she is a 9th! However, this doesn't
        prevent Klemp from sharing this info
        with the membership. Twit more than
        likely started the "no tell" rule because
        he didn't want others to find out who
        he had promoted, behind the backs
        of his Spiritual Council, and be jealous.
        Gail was probably a 9th as is Joan!

        However, this "no tell" rule has been
        expanded. No ECKists are supposed
        to discuss (gossip about) the Ninth
        Initiation openly.This is one reason
        Klemp put this into the Masters 4 Discourse.
        He got the speculation about the 9th
        out of the way and at the same time
        prevented any discussion of the matter
        outside of The Master's 4 Satsang Class.
        No ECKists are to discuss their discourses
        outside of their Satsang Class! Plus,
        Klemp has eliminated any other discussion,
        second guessing, or questions and
        speculation by referring to such as "gossip."
        If any ECKist is reported for "gossiping"
        any future initiations will be put on
        hold. This is a fact that most long-time
        H.I.s are well aware of. This is just another
        fear tactic that Klemp uses to control his
        flock and to keep them on task and sell
        Eckankar! if Klemp had any true powers
        or divine insight he wouldn't need his
        spies, or the RESA police, or "stories"
        mailed to him for use in his talks, books,
        and EK publications.

        prometheus wrote:

        Hello Ingrid and All,
        Yes, I know Bettine Clemen (Ware) too.
        I didn't know that about ECKists getting
        several initiations in one day. Was that
        during Paul's reign, or Darwin's or both?
        I know that Klemp would never do that...
        he's too stingy! And, HK's RESA hierarchy
        can't deal with higher ranking H.I.s
        residing within their Satsangs. Although,
        Bob Lawton (Klemp's former body guard)
        is both an 8th and a RESA. That's the only
        exception, but it does set a precedent.

        IMO- The Glass Ceiling for 7ths is unjustified.
        Why isn't there a more proportionate number
        of 8ths to 7ths?

        And, since there ARE a few ECK 9th Initiates
        lurking around why wouldn't that initiation
        be the actual Glass Ceiling, thus, allowing
        at least 500 8th Initiates.

        Actually, why does Klemp have these Glass
        Ceilings? It's because he's a narcissist and
        doen't want to share. He's a two faced
        hypocrite! He talks about love and compassion,
        but Not forgiveness! Thus, he has never
        mentioned Darwin's (972nd LEM) death
        to the ECK Membership let alone say
        something nice about the former ECK
        Master. That was the "test" that Klemp
        failed. And when he fails a test like that
        it means that he, too, has fallen from Grace!
        His attachment to Power keeps him on the
        throne.

        Anyway, If Klemp wanted to he could have
        promoted two or three initiates to the 12th.
        Not all 12ths have to be LEMs and not all LEMs
        have to be Mahantas... right? Sure!

        And, to insure that these 12ths wouldn't
        threaten his reign HK could have made them
        all females. In ECKankar females can't become
        LEM/Mahantas due to law/science/ tradition
        or whatever. Klemp is just an old tired ass
        selfish, mean spirited and fearful fuddy duddy
        stuck in the past.

        Klemp's negative behaviour and lack of
        compassion towards Darwin, and especially
        his death, is proof that he is both a hypocrite
        and a fraud. But, this is human/KAL behaviour
        typical of all religions and their leaders.

        Unfortunately, ECKists (the most advanced
        Souls ever, LOL) have tunnel vision and blinders
        on. They can only focus upon that carrot (the
        promise of more initiations leading to God-
        Realization) as they trot along doing Service,
        Surrendering, HUing, spending money on EK
        materials and seminars, taking more training,
        following the Guidelines and acting "as if" the
        lies of PT and HK are the ultimate truth. Such
        is religious belief. It may feel good and give
        you some hope, peace of mind and security,
        but it's not Reality or Truth! It's just filler...
        like Klemp's simple-minded redundant books!

        In truth, all religions and their dogmas are
        "tests" for the more "advanced" Souls. When
        one is able to finally see the correlations and
        the lies and beyond the "group think" then
        one is able to see with more clarity and discard
        all religion. The veils of illusion slowly disappear
        until one can commune privately, one-to-one,
        with Divine Spirit.

        Soul doesn't need a LEM or Mahanta or
        a Master or a priest, or a Pope to intervene
        or guide them on the Outer or Inner Planes.
        Of course, all religions (including Eckankar)
        cannot tolerate such statements. This is
        heresy! People are executed, even today,
        by religionists who claim to love God.
        But, why does God need to be protected?

        Thus, those religionists who attack us,
        and the Truth, are ignorant, fearful,
        weak-minded followers, and are immature
        Souls.

        Prometheus

        ctecvie wrote:
        Hi Jonathan and all,

        my husband knew Bettine Clemen personally.
        She once told him that either she or some people
        she knew (I'm not sure) got the 3rd, 4th and 5th
        initiations in one day - one or two in the morning
        and the last one(s) in the afternoon!

        At the time they needed a lot of higher initiates
        as eckankar was still young. Now there are so
        many HIs that they had to introduce a glass ceiling -
        I guess that's why initiations are slowed down
        so much!

        It's all about administration and money, and power
        of course ... :-))

        Ingrid

        jonathanjohns wrote:
        >
        > Prometheus,
        >
        > I'm going to add a few "facts" from my personal experience in the 1980-1983
        time frame to the discussion.
        >
        > In your post just before the one I am responding to, you stated that "[Darwin]
        Gross promoted 1000 Eckists to the 5th!" And then you followed it up with
        "Ooops! I think that was 500 (not 1000) to the 5th, and around 1983 just before
        being kicked out by Klemp!"
        >
        > I joined Eckanakar around 1979 so I got in on the last few years of Darwin
        Gross' time as the LEM. I believe it was around 1980/1981 that a member of
        Eckankar, B.S., told me that he was promoted directly from 3rd initiate to 5th
        initiate. In other words, he skipped his 4th initiation. This may have occurred
        later, in the 1983 time frame, I really can't be certain, but this "3 to 5
        initiation" was definitely done by Darwin.
        >
        > Also, I heard about one other person who went from 3rd to 5th. The really
        interesting thing is that I believe that both of these people had been in
        Eckankar for less than 10 years. Eckankar started in 1965, so 15-18 years was
        the absolute maximum time the person who spoke to me was in Eckankar. Plus, he
        never spoke about Paul Twitchell, and I'm very certain he joined Eckankar after
        Twitchell's death, making his maximum time in Eckankar about 10-13 years since
        Darwin started in 1971. I honestly think that 7 to 8 years is a better estimate
        of the time he was a member of Eckankar. He was only about 25 to 30 years old.
        >
        > By the way, regarding the person, B.S., who personally told me about skipping
        his 4th initiation. I asked him how that happened. He gave me an explanation,
        but I don't remember what it was. I believe it had something to do with the fact
        that he progressed spiritually so fast, he didn't need to "pause" at the fourth.
        But he wasn't arrogant so he probably said something like "the ECK need to
        progress people really fast."
        >
        > It has been mentioned in other posts on this message board that things are a
        lot different now, with many members of Eckankar going almost 30 years without
        receiving their 5th initiation.
        >
        > Years later, I did hear from a higher HI that Darwin gave a lot of initiations
        out to people who didn't really deserve them. Of course, during the time when
        Darwin was the LEM, whatever he did or didn't do was 100% accepted by Eckankar's
        membership, but after he was kicked out, everything Darwin did or didn't do was
        automatically suspect if not completely wrong.
        >
        > Jonathan


      • prometheus_973
        Hello Ed and All, Now that my memory of this has been refreshed I do recall Klemp mentioning people in Africa being promoted rapidly due to the need for EK
        Message 3 of 17 , Feb 2 11:32 AM
        • 0 Attachment
          Hello Ed and All,
          Now that my memory of this has been
          refreshed I do recall Klemp mentioning
          people in Africa being promoted rapidly
          due to the need for EK Leaders. I had
          no idea as to how it was being done
          and that initiations were being skipped!
          HK would (and still) always say how
          advanced and natural the Africans' beliefs
          were. But, from what I've heard, there's
          a lot of superstition, folk lore, and other
          beliefs mixed in with the EK teachings.

          Ed, can you share or elaborate on this?

          Apparently HK's policy of this skipping
          of initiations was a sin of omission on
          Klemp's part. He knew that other EKists
          wouldn't feel comfortable with this tactic.
          HK never shared these details with the
          membership. I guess that the general
          membership didn't need to know how
          he was conducting business since he
          doesn't have to report to anyone for his
          actions... like the Pope.

          It just goes to show that the EK Initiations
          can be manipulated for physical worldly
          gains... more sales leaders.

          It is hypocritical of Klemp to bring up
          the fact that Paul promoted people
          very rapidly to Higher Initiations due
          to need when Eckankar was in the
          early stages. Darwin did the same thing
          early on and was never criticized for it.
          When DG's and HK's conflict, in 1983,
          was coming to a head Darwin promoted
          500 EKists to the 5th initiation. The
          problem was really with Klemp's ego.
          Instead, Klemp made Darwin look like
          the bad guy on this, too, because of
          the other things that had taken place.

          However, as I said before, IF Darwin
          really was a Black Magician, as the nasty
          Klempster claimed, that would mean
          that those 500 EKists DG gave the 5th
          to had actually been initiated, unknowingly,
          into the Black Arts. Klemp claimed, at
          the time, that viewing Darwin's picture
          or reading his words could have psychic
          influence over ECKists. Where was Klemp's
          protection? This is why ECKists don't
          usually read outside (unapproved) books
          and info. Klemp has scared them from
          doing so. But, where's the "protection"
          from such things? Catch-22 again!

          Anyway, let's not forget Klemp promoting
          people in Europe rapidly as well. Plus,
          after the schism in 1983-1984 Klemp
          had gaps in EK leadership, due to H.I.s
          leaving to follow Darwin, and thus
          promoted his own group of H.I.s as fill-ins.
          Once again, the promotions (initiations)
          had nothing to do with Spiritual Growth.

          Yes, it's interesting to discuss these
          remembrances and piece together
          information about the EK Initiations.
          Klemp's cover-up and omissions on
          his own policy of skipping initiations
          is more proof that the initiations aren't
          what ECKists imagine them to be.
          The initiations are devalued when
          the truth about how and why they
          are manipulated becomes known.

          Of course, the true blue EKist will
          deny the truth. They need Eckankar
          (religion) and will rationalize. They
          turn a blind-eye to facts and to
          critical thinking. They want to and
          need to believe in Eckankar because
          they don't have a replacement belief.
          Also, Eckankar is convenient and like
          all religions it "answers" our questions
          with dogma that seems to make sense
          at times. And, the promises (imaginings)
          and dreams seem better than what other
          religions seem to teach and offer. But,
          that never ending "Service/Sales" crap
          is the real turnoff! Well actually, Klemp
          promoting his younger looking image
          in "Tips for ECK Study" and on "The
          Wisdom Notes" page is a real turn-off!
          Such vanity!

          Prometheus

          Ed Kusi wrote:

          Hi All,
          This 3-5th,and even 2-5th happened in
          Africa too. | personally know five HIs in
          one country who were jumped from 2nd
          and 3rd to the 5th Initiation. It happened
          in Darwin's time and the reasons given
          were as already mentioned in related posts.

          Pretujari

          prometheus wrote:

          Hello All,
          I just remembered something that
          I heard back in the 80s from a
          member of Klemp's EK Spiritual Council.
          This 8th said that Harold needed to
          make more H.I.s in Europe and that
          he was making exceptions out of
          necessity. And, HK had promoted
          one person (a man), in Eastern Europe,
          to the 9th. I never knew why this
          9th initiation thing was/is such a
          big secret. It's probably because
          HK doesn't want to build up any
          more expectations for those higher
          initiations anymore than he has
          already. That's why the "imagination"
          pacifier is pushed onto H.I.s.

          The only Catch to getting and keeping
          the 9th lies with that individual Not telling
          he/she is a 9th! However, this doesn't
          prevent Klemp from sharing this info
          with the membership. Twit more than
          likely started the "no tell" rule because
          he didn't want others to find out who
          he had promoted, behind the backs
          of his Spiritual Council, and be jealous.
          Gail was probably a 9th as is Joan!

          However, this "no tell" rule has been
          expanded. No ECKists are supposed
          to discuss (gossip about) the Ninth
          Initiation openly.This is one reason
          Klemp put this into the Masters 4 Discourse.
          He got the speculation about the 9th
          out of the way and at the same time
          prevented any discussion of the matter
          outside of The Master's 4 Satsang Class.
          No ECKists are to discuss their discourses
          outside of their Satsang Class! Plus,
          Klemp has eliminated any other discussion,
          second guessing, or questions and
          speculation by referring to such as "gossip."
          If any ECKist is reported for "gossiping"
          any future initiations will be put on
          hold. This is a fact that most long-time
          H.I.s are well aware of. This is just another
          fear tactic that Klemp uses to control his
          flock and to keep them on task and sell
          Eckankar! if Klemp had any true powers
          or divine insight he wouldn't need his
          spies, or the RESA police, or "stories"
          mailed to him for use in his talks, books,
          and EK publications.

          prometheus wrote:

          Hello Ingrid and All,
          Yes, I know Bettine Clemen (Ware) too.
          I didn't know that about ECKists getting
          several initiations in one day. Was that
          during Paul's reign, or Darwin's or both?
          I know that Klemp would never do that...
          he's too stingy! And, HK's RESA hierarchy
          can't deal with higher ranking H.I.s
          residing within their Satsangs. Although,
          Bob Lawton (Klemp's former body guard)
          is both an 8th and a RESA. That's the only
          exception, but it does set a precedent.

          IMO- The Glass Ceiling for 7ths is unjustified.
          Why isn't there a more proportionate number
          of 8ths to 7ths?

          And, since there ARE a few ECK 9th Initiates
          lurking around why wouldn't that initiation
          be the actual Glass Ceiling, thus, allowing
          at least 500 8th Initiates.

          Actually, why does Klemp have these Glass
          Ceilings? It's because he's a narcissist and
          doen't want to share. He's a two faced
          hypocrite! He talks about love and compassion,
          but Not forgiveness! Thus, he has never
          mentioned Darwin's (972nd LEM) death
          to the ECK Membership let alone say
          something nice about the former ECK
          Master. That was the "test" that Klemp
          failed. And when he fails a test like that
          it means that he, too, has fallen from Grace!
          His attachment to Power keeps him on the
          throne.

          Anyway, If Klemp wanted to he could have
          promoted two or three initiates to the 12th.
          Not all 12ths have to be LEMs and not all LEMs
          have to be Mahantas... right? Sure!

          And, to insure that these 12ths wouldn't
          threaten his reign HK could have made them
          all females. In ECKankar females can't become
          LEM/Mahantas due to law/science/ tradition
          or whatever. Klemp is just an old tired ass
          selfish, mean spirited and fearful fuddy duddy
          stuck in the past.

          Klemp's negative behaviour and lack of
          compassion towards Darwin, and especially
          his death, is proof that he is both a hypocrite
          and a fraud. But, this is human/KAL behaviour
          typical of all religions and their leaders.

          Unfortunately, ECKists (the most advanced
          Souls ever, LOL) have tunnel vision and blinders
          on. They can only focus upon that carrot (the
          promise of more initiations leading to God-
          Realization) as they trot along doing Service,
          Surrendering, HUing, spending money on EK
          materials and seminars, taking more training,
          following the Guidelines and acting "as if" the
          lies of PT and HK are the ultimate truth. Such
          is religious belief. It may feel good and give
          you some hope, peace of mind and security,
          but it's not Reality or Truth! It's just filler...
          like Klemp's simple-minded redundant books!

          In truth, all religions and their dogmas are
          "tests" for the more "advanced" Souls. When
          one is able to finally see the correlations and
          the lies and beyond the "group think" then
          one is able to see with more clarity and discard
          all religion. The veils of illusion slowly disappear
          until one can commune privately, one-to-one,
          with Divine Spirit.

          Soul doesn't need a LEM or Mahanta or
          a Master or a priest, or a Pope to intervene
          or guide them on the Outer or Inner Planes.
          Of course, all religions (including Eckankar)
          cannot tolerate such statements. This is
          heresy! People are executed, even today,
          by religionists who claim to love God.
          But, why does God need to be protected?

          Thus, those religionists who attack us,
          and the Truth, are ignorant, fearful,
          weak-minded followers, and are immature
          Souls.

          Prometheus

          ctecvie wrote:
          Hi Jonathan and all,

          my husband knew Bettine Clemen personally.
          She once told him that either she or some people
          she knew (I'm not sure) got the 3rd, 4th and 5th
          initiations in one day - one or two in the morning
          and the last one(s) in the afternoon!

          At the time they needed a lot of higher initiates
          as eckankar was still young. Now there are so
          many HIs that they had to introduce a glass ceiling -
          I guess that's why initiations are slowed down
          so much!

          It's all about administration and money, and power
          of course ... :-))

          Ingrid

          jonathanjohns wrote:
          >
          > Prometheus,
          >
          > I'm going to add a few "facts" from my personal experience in the 1980-1983
          time frame to the discussion.
          >
          > In your post just before the one I am responding to, you stated that "[Darwin]
          Gross promoted 1000 Eckists to the 5th!" And then you followed it up with
          "Ooops! I think that was 500 (not 1000) to the 5th, and around 1983 just before
          being kicked out by Klemp!"
          >
          > I joined Eckanakar around 1979 so I got in on the last few years of Darwin
          Gross' time as the LEM. I believe it was around 1980/1981 that a member of
          Eckankar, B.S., told me that he was promoted directly from 3rd initiate to 5th
          initiate. In other words, he skipped his 4th initiation. This may have occurred
          later, in the 1983 time frame, I really can't be certain, but this "3 to 5
          initiation" was definitely done by Darwin.
          >
          > Also, I heard about one other person who went from 3rd to 5th. The really
          interesting thing is that I believe that both of these people had been in
          Eckankar for less than 10 years. Eckankar started in 1965, so 15-18 years was
          the absolute maximum time the person who spoke to me was in Eckankar. Plus, he
          never spoke about Paul Twitchell, and I'm very certain he joined Eckankar after
          Twitchell's death, making his maximum time in Eckankar about 10-13 years since
          Darwin started in 1971. I honestly think that 7 to 8 years is a better estimate
          of the time he was a member of Eckankar. He was only about 25 to 30 years old.
          >
          > By the way, regarding the person, B.S., who personally told me about skipping
          his 4th initiation. I asked him how that happened. He gave me an explanation,
          but I don't remember what it was. I believe it had something to do with the fact
          that he progressed spiritually so fast, he didn't need to "pause" at the fourth.
          But he wasn't arrogant so he probably said something like "the ECK need to
          progress people really fast."
          >
          > It has been mentioned in other posts on this message board that things are a
          lot different now, with many members of Eckankar going almost 30 years without
          receiving their 5th initiation.
          >
          > Years later, I did hear from a higher HI that Darwin gave a lot of initiations
          out to people who didn't really deserve them. Of course, during the time when
          Darwin was the LEM, whatever he did or didn't do was 100% accepted by Eckankar's
          membership, but after he was kicked out, everything Darwin did or didn't do was
          automatically suspect if not completely wrong.
          >
          > Jonathan
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