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Re: 3rd initiation to 5th initiation (not me) in 1980-1983 time frame

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  • ctecvie
    Hi Jonathan and all, my husband knew Bettine Clemen personally. She once told him that either she or some people she knew (I m not sure) got the 3rd, 4th and
    Message 1 of 17 , Feb 1, 2010
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      Hi Jonathan and all,

      my husband knew Bettine Clemen personally. She once told him that either she or some people she knew (I'm not sure) got the 3rd, 4th and 5th initiations in one day - one or two in the morning and the last one(s) in the afternoon!

      At the time they needed a lot of higher initiates as eckankar was still young. Now there are so many HIs that they had to introduce a glass ceiling - I guess that's why initiations are slowed down so much!

      It's all about administration and money, and power of course ... :-))
      Ingrid

      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96" <jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:
      >
      > Prometheus,
      >
      > I'm going to add a few "facts" from my personal experience in the 1980-1983 time frame to the discussion.
      >
      > In your post just before the one I am responding to, you stated that "[Darwin] Gross promoted 1000 Eckists to the 5th!" And then you followed it up with "Ooops! I think that was 500 (not 1000) to the 5th, and around 1983 just before being kicked out by Klemp!"
      >
      > I joined Eckanakar around 1979 so I got in on the last few years of Darwin Gross' time as the LEM. I believe it was around 1980/1981 that a member of Eckankar, B.S., told me that he was promoted directly from 3rd initiate to 5th initiate. In other words, he skipped his 4th initiation. This may have occurred later, in the 1983 time frame, I really can't be certain, but this "3 to 5 initiation" was definitely done by Darwin.
      >
      > Also, I heard about one other person who went from 3rd to 5th. The really interesting thing is that I believe that both of these people had been in Eckankar for less than 10 years. Eckankar started in 1965, so 15-18 years was the absolute maximum time the person who spoke to me was in Eckankar. Plus, he never spoke about Paul Twitchell, and I'm very certain he joined Eckankar after Twitchell's death, making his maximum time in Eckankar about 10-13 years since Darwin started in 1971. I honestly think that 7 to 8 years is a better estimate of the time he was a member of Eckankar. He was only about 25 to 30 years old.
      >
      > By the way, regarding the person, B.S., who personally told me about skipping his 4th initiation. I asked him how that happened. He gave me an explanation, but I don't remember what it was. I believe it had something to do with the fact that he progressed spiritually so fast, he didn't need to "pause" at the fourth. But he wasn't arrogant so he probably said something like "the ECK need to progress people really fast."
      >
      > It has been mentioned in other posts on this message board that things are a lot different now, with many members of Eckankar going almost 30 years without receiving their 5th initiation.
      >
      > Years later, I did hear from a higher HI that Darwin gave a lot of initiations out to people who didn't really deserve them. Of course, during the time when Darwin was the LEM, whatever he did or didn't do was 100% accepted by Eckankar's membership, but after he was kicked out, everything Darwin did or didn't do was automatically suspect if not completely wrong.
      >
      > Jonathan
      >
    • prometheus_973
      Hello Ingrid and All, Yes, I know Bettine Clemen (Ware) too. I didn t know that about ECKists getting several initiations in one day. Was that during Paul s
      Message 2 of 17 , Feb 1, 2010
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        Hello Ingrid and All,
        Yes, I know Bettine Clemen (Ware) too.
        I didn't know that about ECKists getting
        several initiations in one day. Was that
        during Paul's reign, or Darwin's or both?
        I know that Klemp would never do that...
        he's too stingy! And, HK's RESA hierarchy
        can't deal with higher ranking H.I.s
        residing within their Satsangs. Although,
        Bob Lawton (Klemp's former body guard)
        is both an 8th and a RESA. That's the only
        exception, but it does set a precedent.

        IMO- The Glass Ceiling for 7ths is unjustified.
        Why isn't there a more proportionate number
        of 8ths to 7ths?

        And, since there ARE a few ECK 9th Initiates
        lurking around why wouldn't that initiation
        be the actual Glass Ceiling, thus, allowing
        at least 500 8th Initiates.

        Actually, why does Klemp have these Glass
        Ceilings? It's because he's a narcissist and
        doen't want to share. He's a two faced
        hypocrite! He talks about love and compassion,
        but Not forgiveness! Thus, he has never
        mentioned Darwin's (972nd LEM) death
        to the ECK Membership let alone say
        something nice about the former ECK
        Master. That was the "test" that Klemp
        failed. And when he fails a test like that
        it means that he, too, has fallen from Grace!
        His attachment to Power keeps him on the
        throne.

        Anyway, If Klemp wanted to he could have
        promoted two or three initiates to the 12th.
        Not all 12ths have to be LEMs and not all LEMs
        have to be Mahantas... right? Sure!

        And, to insure that these 12ths wouldn't
        threaten his reign HK could have made them
        all females. In ECKankar females can't become
        LEM/Mahantas due to law/science/tradition
        or whatever. Klemp is just an old tired ass
        selfish, mean spirited and fearful fuddy duddy
        stuck in the past.

        Klemp's negative behaviour and lack of
        compassion towards Darwin, and especially
        his death, is proof that he is both a hypocrite
        and a fraud. But, this is human/KAL behaviour
        typical of all religions and their leaders.

        Unfortunately, ECKists (the most advanced
        Souls ever, LOL) have tunnel vision and blinders
        on. They can only focus upon that carrot (the
        promise of more initiations leading to God-
        Realization) as they trot along doing Service,
        Surrendering, HUing, spending money on EK
        materials and seminars, taking more training,
        following the Guidelines and acting "as if" the
        lies of PT and HK are the ultimate truth. Such
        is religious belief. It may feel good and give
        you some hope, peace of mind and security,
        but it's not Reality or Truth! It's just filler...
        like Klemp's simple-minded redundant books!

        In truth, all religions and their dogmas are
        "tests" for the more "advanced" Souls. When
        one is able to finally see the correlations and
        the lies and beyond the "group think" then
        one is able to see with more clarity and discard
        all religion. The veils of illusion slowly disappear
        until one can commune privately, one-to-one,
        with Divine Spirit.

        Soul doesn't need a LEM or Mahanta or
        a Master or a priest, or a Pope to intervene
        or guide them on the Outer or Inner Planes.
        Of course, all religions (including Eckankar)
        cannot tolerate such statements. This is
        heresy! People are executed, even today,
        by religionists who claim to love God.
        But, why does God need to be protected?

        Thus, those religionists who attack us,
        and the Truth, are ignorant, fearful,
        weak-minded followers, and are immature
        Souls.

        Prometheus


        ctecvie wrote:
        Hi Jonathan and all,

        my husband knew Bettine Clemen personally.
        She once told him that either she or some people
        she knew (I'm not sure) got the 3rd, 4th and 5th
        initiations in one day - one or two in the morning
        and the last one(s) in the afternoon!

        At the time they needed a lot of higher initiates
        as eckankar was still young. Now there are so
        many HIs that they had to introduce a glass ceiling -
        I guess that's why initiations are slowed down
        so much!

        It's all about administration and money, and power
        of course ... :-))

        Ingrid

        jonathanjohns wrote:
        >
        > Prometheus,
        >
        > I'm going to add a few "facts" from my personal experience in the 1980-1983
        time frame to the discussion.
        >
        > In your post just before the one I am responding to, you stated that "[Darwin]
        Gross promoted 1000 Eckists to the 5th!" And then you followed it up with
        "Ooops! I think that was 500 (not 1000) to the 5th, and around 1983 just before
        being kicked out by Klemp!"
        >
        > I joined Eckanakar around 1979 so I got in on the last few years of Darwin
        Gross' time as the LEM. I believe it was around 1980/1981 that a member of
        Eckankar, B.S., told me that he was promoted directly from 3rd initiate to 5th
        initiate. In other words, he skipped his 4th initiation. This may have occurred
        later, in the 1983 time frame, I really can't be certain, but this "3 to 5
        initiation" was definitely done by Darwin.
        >
        > Also, I heard about one other person who went from 3rd to 5th. The really
        interesting thing is that I believe that both of these people had been in
        Eckankar for less than 10 years. Eckankar started in 1965, so 15-18 years was
        the absolute maximum time the person who spoke to me was in Eckankar. Plus, he
        never spoke about Paul Twitchell, and I'm very certain he joined Eckankar after
        Twitchell's death, making his maximum time in Eckankar about 10-13 years since
        Darwin started in 1971. I honestly think that 7 to 8 years is a better estimate
        of the time he was a member of Eckankar. He was only about 25 to 30 years old.
        >
        > By the way, regarding the person, B.S., who personally told me about skipping
        his 4th initiation. I asked him how that happened. He gave me an explanation,
        but I don't remember what it was. I believe it had something to do with the fact
        that he progressed spiritually so fast, he didn't need to "pause" at the fourth.
        But he wasn't arrogant so he probably said something like "the ECK need to
        progress people really fast."
        >
        > It has been mentioned in other posts on this message board that things are a
        lot different now, with many members of Eckankar going almost 30 years without
        receiving their 5th initiation.
        >
        > Years later, I did hear from a higher HI that Darwin gave a lot of initiations
        out to people who didn't really deserve them. Of course, during the time when
        Darwin was the LEM, whatever he did or didn't do was 100% accepted by Eckankar's
        membership, but after he was kicked out, everything Darwin did or didn't do was
        automatically suspect if not completely wrong.
        >
        > Jonathan
        >
      • prometheus_973
        Hello All, I just remembered something that I heard back in the 80s from a member of Klemp s EK Spiritual Council. This 8th said that Harold needed to make
        Message 3 of 17 , Feb 1, 2010
        • 0 Attachment
          Hello All,
          I just remembered something that
          I heard back in the 80s from a
          member of Klemp's EK Spiritual Council.
          This 8th said that Harold needed to
          make more H.I.s in Europe and that
          he was making exceptions out of
          necessity. And, HK had promoted
          one person (a man), in Eastern Europe,
          to the 9th. I never knew why this
          9th initiation thing was/is such a
          big secret. It's probably because
          HK doesn't want to build up any
          more expectations for those higher
          initiations anymore than he has
          already. That's why the "imagination"
          pacifier is pushed onto H.I.s.

          The only Catch to getting and keeping
          the 9th lies with that individual Not telling
          he/she is a 9th! However, this doesn't
          prevent Klemp from sharing this info
          with the membership. Twit more than
          likely started the "no tell" rule because
          he didn't want others to find out who
          he had promoted, behind the backs
          of his Spiritual Council, and be jealous.
          Gail was probably a 9th as is Joan!

          However, this "no tell" rule has been
          expanded. No ECKists are supposed
          to discuss (gossip about) the Ninth
          Initiation openly.This is one reason
          Klemp put this into the Masters 4 Discourse.
          He got the speculation about the 9th
          out of the way and at the same time
          prevented any discussion of the matter
          outside of The Master's 4 Satsang Class.
          No ECKists are to discuss their discourses
          outside of their Satsang Class! Plus,
          Klemp has eliminated any other discussion,
          second guessing, or questions and
          speculation by referring to such as "gossip."
          If any ECKist is reported for "gossiping"
          any future initiations will be put on
          hold. This is a fact that most long-time
          H.I.s are well aware of. This is just another
          fear tactic that Klemp uses to control his
          flock and to keep them on task and sell
          Eckankar! if Klemp had any true powers
          or divine insight he wouldn't need his
          spies, or the RESA police, or "stories"
          mailed to him for use in his talks, books,
          and EK publications.


          prometheus wrote:

          Hello Ingrid and All,
          Yes, I know Bettine Clemen (Ware) too.
          I didn't know that about ECKists getting
          several initiations in one day. Was that
          during Paul's reign, or Darwin's or both?
          I know that Klemp would never do that...
          he's too stingy! And, HK's RESA hierarchy
          can't deal with higher ranking H.I.s
          residing within their Satsangs. Although,
          Bob Lawton (Klemp's former body guard)
          is both an 8th and a RESA. That's the only
          exception, but it does set a precedent.

          IMO- The Glass Ceiling for 7ths is unjustified.
          Why isn't there a more proportionate number
          of 8ths to 7ths?

          And, since there ARE a few ECK 9th Initiates
          lurking around why wouldn't that initiation
          be the actual Glass Ceiling, thus, allowing
          at least 500 8th Initiates.

          Actually, why does Klemp have these Glass
          Ceilings? It's because he's a narcissist and
          doen't want to share. He's a two faced
          hypocrite! He talks about love and compassion,
          but Not forgiveness! Thus, he has never
          mentioned Darwin's (972nd LEM) death
          to the ECK Membership let alone say
          something nice about the former ECK
          Master. That was the "test" that Klemp
          failed. And when he fails a test like that
          it means that he, too, has fallen from Grace!
          His attachment to Power keeps him on the
          throne.

          Anyway, If Klemp wanted to he could have
          promoted two or three initiates to the 12th.
          Not all 12ths have to be LEMs and not all LEMs
          have to be Mahantas... right? Sure!

          And, to insure that these 12ths wouldn't
          threaten his reign HK could have made them
          all females. In ECKankar females can't become
          LEM/Mahantas due to law/science/tradition
          or whatever. Klemp is just an old tired ass
          selfish, mean spirited and fearful fuddy duddy
          stuck in the past.

          Klemp's negative behaviour and lack of
          compassion towards Darwin, and especially
          his death, is proof that he is both a hypocrite
          and a fraud. But, this is human/KAL behaviour
          typical of all religions and their leaders.

          Unfortunately, ECKists (the most advanced
          Souls ever, LOL) have tunnel vision and blinders
          on. They can only focus upon that carrot (the
          promise of more initiations leading to God-
          Realization) as they trot along doing Service,
          Surrendering, HUing, spending money on EK
          materials and seminars, taking more training,
          following the Guidelines and acting "as if" the
          lies of PT and HK are the ultimate truth. Such
          is religious belief. It may feel good and give
          you some hope, peace of mind and security,
          but it's not Reality or Truth! It's just filler...
          like Klemp's simple-minded redundant books!

          In truth, all religions and their dogmas are
          "tests" for the more "advanced" Souls. When
          one is able to finally see the correlations and
          the lies and beyond the "group think" then
          one is able to see with more clarity and discard
          all religion. The veils of illusion slowly disappear
          until one can commune privately, one-to-one,
          with Divine Spirit.

          Soul doesn't need a LEM or Mahanta or
          a Master or a priest, or a Pope to intervene
          or guide them on the Outer or Inner Planes.
          Of course, all religions (including Eckankar)
          cannot tolerate such statements. This is
          heresy! People are executed, even today,
          by religionists who claim to love God.
          But, why does God need to be protected?

          Thus, those religionists who attack us,
          and the Truth, are ignorant, fearful,
          weak-minded followers, and are immature
          Souls.

          Prometheus


          ctecvie wrote:
          Hi Jonathan and all,

          my husband knew Bettine Clemen personally.
          She once told him that either she or some people
          she knew (I'm not sure) got the 3rd, 4th and 5th
          initiations in one day - one or two in the morning
          and the last one(s) in the afternoon!

          At the time they needed a lot of higher initiates
          as eckankar was still young. Now there are so
          many HIs that they had to introduce a glass ceiling -
          I guess that's why initiations are slowed down
          so much!

          It's all about administration and money, and power
          of course ... :-))

          Ingrid

          jonathanjohns wrote:
          >
          > Prometheus,
          >
          > I'm going to add a few "facts" from my personal experience in the 1980-1983
          time frame to the discussion.
          >
          > In your post just before the one I am responding to, you stated that "[Darwin]
          Gross promoted 1000 Eckists to the 5th!" And then you followed it up with
          "Ooops! I think that was 500 (not 1000) to the 5th, and around 1983 just before
          being kicked out by Klemp!"
          >
          > I joined Eckanakar around 1979 so I got in on the last few years of Darwin
          Gross' time as the LEM. I believe it was around 1980/1981 that a member of
          Eckankar, B.S., told me that he was promoted directly from 3rd initiate to 5th
          initiate. In other words, he skipped his 4th initiation. This may have occurred
          later, in the 1983 time frame, I really can't be certain, but this "3 to 5
          initiation" was definitely done by Darwin.
          >
          > Also, I heard about one other person who went from 3rd to 5th. The really
          interesting thing is that I believe that both of these people had been in
          Eckankar for less than 10 years. Eckankar started in 1965, so 15-18 years was
          the absolute maximum time the person who spoke to me was in Eckankar. Plus, he
          never spoke about Paul Twitchell, and I'm very certain he joined Eckankar after
          Twitchell's death, making his maximum time in Eckankar about 10-13 years since
          Darwin started in 1971. I honestly think that 7 to 8 years is a better estimate
          of the time he was a member of Eckankar. He was only about 25 to 30 years old.
          >
          > By the way, regarding the person, B.S., who personally told me about skipping
          his 4th initiation. I asked him how that happened. He gave me an explanation,
          but I don't remember what it was. I believe it had something to do with the fact
          that he progressed spiritually so fast, he didn't need to "pause" at the fourth.
          But he wasn't arrogant so he probably said something like "the ECK need to
          progress people really fast."
          >
          > It has been mentioned in other posts on this message board that things are a
          lot different now, with many members of Eckankar going almost 30 years without
          receiving their 5th initiation.
          >
          > Years later, I did hear from a higher HI that Darwin gave a lot of initiations
          out to people who didn't really deserve them. Of course, during the time when
          Darwin was the LEM, whatever he did or didn't do was 100% accepted by Eckankar's
          membership, but after he was kicked out, everything Darwin did or didn't do was
          automatically suspect if not completely wrong.
          >
          > Jonathan
        • Ed Kusi
          Hi All, This 3-5th,and even 2-5th happened in Africa too. | personally know five HIs in one country who were jumped from 2nd and 3rd to the 5th Initiation. It
          Message 4 of 17 , Feb 1, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi All,
            This 3-5th,and even 2-5th happened in Africa too. | personally know five HIs in one country who were jumped from 2nd and 3rd to the 5th Initiation. It happened in Darwin's time and the reasons given were as already mentioned in related posts.

            Pretujari

            --- On Mon, 2/1/10, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

            From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: 3rd initiation to 5th initiation (not me) in 1980-1983 time frame
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Monday, February 1, 2010, 2:03 PM

             

            Hello All,
            I just remembered something that
            I heard back in the 80s from a
            member of Klemp's EK Spiritual Council.
            This 8th said that Harold needed to
            make more H.I.s in Europe and that
            he was making exceptions out of
            necessity. And, HK had promoted
            one person (a man), in Eastern Europe,
            to the 9th. I never knew why this
            9th initiation thing was/is such a
            big secret. It's probably because
            HK doesn't want to build up any
            more expectations for those higher
            initiations anymore than he has
            already. That's why the "imagination"
            pacifier is pushed onto H.I.s.

            The only Catch to getting and keeping
            the 9th lies with that individual Not telling
            he/she is a 9th! However, this doesn't
            prevent Klemp from sharing this info
            with the membership. Twit more than
            likely started the "no tell" rule because
            he didn't want others to find out who
            he had promoted, behind the backs
            of his Spiritual Council, and be jealous.
            Gail was probably a 9th as is Joan!

            However, this "no tell" rule has been
            expanded. No ECKists are supposed
            to discuss (gossip about) the Ninth
            Initiation openly.This is one reason
            Klemp put this into the Masters 4 Discourse.
            He got the speculation about the 9th
            out of the way and at the same time
            prevented any discussion of the matter
            outside of The Master's 4 Satsang Class.
            No ECKists are to discuss their discourses
            outside of their Satsang Class! Plus,
            Klemp has eliminated any other discussion,
            second guessing, or questions and
            speculation by referring to such as "gossip."
            If any ECKist is reported for "gossiping"
            any future initiations will be put on
            hold. This is a fact that most long-time
            H.I.s are well aware of. This is just another
            fear tactic that Klemp uses to control his
            flock and to keep them on task and sell
            Eckankar! if Klemp had any true powers
            or divine insight he wouldn't need his
            spies, or the RESA police, or "stories"
            mailed to him for use in his talks, books,
            and EK publications.

            prometheus wrote:

            Hello Ingrid and All,
            Yes, I know Bettine Clemen (Ware) too.
            I didn't know that about ECKists getting
            several initiations in one day. Was that
            during Paul's reign, or Darwin's or both?
            I know that Klemp would never do that...
            he's too stingy! And, HK's RESA hierarchy
            can't deal with higher ranking H.I.s
            residing within their Satsangs. Although,
            Bob Lawton (Klemp's former body guard)
            is both an 8th and a RESA. That's the only
            exception, but it does set a precedent.

            IMO- The Glass Ceiling for 7ths is unjustified.
            Why isn't there a more proportionate number
            of 8ths to 7ths?

            And, since there ARE a few ECK 9th Initiates
            lurking around why wouldn't that initiation
            be the actual Glass Ceiling, thus, allowing
            at least 500 8th Initiates.

            Actually, why does Klemp have these Glass
            Ceilings? It's because he's a narcissist and
            doen't want to share. He's a two faced
            hypocrite! He talks about love and compassion,
            but Not forgiveness! Thus, he has never
            mentioned Darwin's (972nd LEM) death
            to the ECK Membership let alone say
            something nice about the former ECK
            Master. That was the "test" that Klemp
            failed. And when he fails a test like that
            it means that he, too, has fallen from Grace!
            His attachment to Power keeps him on the
            throne.

            Anyway, If Klemp wanted to he could have
            promoted two or three initiates to the 12th.
            Not all 12ths have to be LEMs and not all LEMs
            have to be Mahantas... right? Sure!

            And, to insure that these 12ths wouldn't
            threaten his reign HK could have made them
            all females. In ECKankar females can't become
            LEM/Mahantas due to law/science/ tradition
            or whatever. Klemp is just an old tired ass
            selfish, mean spirited and fearful fuddy duddy
            stuck in the past.

            Klemp's negative behaviour and lack of
            compassion towards Darwin, and especially
            his death, is proof that he is both a hypocrite
            and a fraud. But, this is human/KAL behaviour
            typical of all religions and their leaders.

            Unfortunately, ECKists (the most advanced
            Souls ever, LOL) have tunnel vision and blinders
            on. They can only focus upon that carrot (the
            promise of more initiations leading to God-
            Realization) as they trot along doing Service,
            Surrendering, HUing, spending money on EK
            materials and seminars, taking more training,
            following the Guidelines and acting "as if" the
            lies of PT and HK are the ultimate truth. Such
            is religious belief. It may feel good and give
            you some hope, peace of mind and security,
            but it's not Reality or Truth! It's just filler...
            like Klemp's simple-minded redundant books!

            In truth, all religions and their dogmas are
            "tests" for the more "advanced" Souls. When
            one is able to finally see the correlations and
            the lies and beyond the "group think" then
            one is able to see with more clarity and discard
            all religion. The veils of illusion slowly disappear
            until one can commune privately, one-to-one,
            with Divine Spirit.

            Soul doesn't need a LEM or Mahanta or
            a Master or a priest, or a Pope to intervene
            or guide them on the Outer or Inner Planes.
            Of course, all religions (including Eckankar)
            cannot tolerate such statements. This is
            heresy! People are executed, even today,
            by religionists who claim to love God.
            But, why does God need to be protected?

            Thus, those religionists who attack us,
            and the Truth, are ignorant, fearful,
            weak-minded followers, and are immature
            Souls.

            Prometheus

            ctecvie wrote:
            Hi Jonathan and all,

            my husband knew Bettine Clemen personally.
            She once told him that either she or some people
            she knew (I'm not sure) got the 3rd, 4th and 5th
            initiations in one day - one or two in the morning
            and the last one(s) in the afternoon!

            At the time they needed a lot of higher initiates
            as eckankar was still young. Now there are so
            many HIs that they had to introduce a glass ceiling -
            I guess that's why initiations are slowed down
            so much!

            It's all about administration and money, and power
            of course ... :-))

            Ingrid

            jonathanjohns wrote:
            >
            > Prometheus,
            >
            > I'm going to add a few "facts" from my personal experience in the 1980-1983
            time frame to the discussion.
            >
            > In your post just before the one I am responding to, you stated that "[Darwin]
            Gross promoted 1000 Eckists to the 5th!" And then you followed it up with
            "Ooops! I think that was 500 (not 1000) to the 5th, and around 1983 just before
            being kicked out by Klemp!"
            >
            > I joined Eckanakar around 1979 so I got in on the last few years of Darwin
            Gross' time as the LEM. I believe it was around 1980/1981 that a member of
            Eckankar, B.S., told me that he was promoted directly from 3rd initiate to 5th
            initiate. In other words, he skipped his 4th initiation. This may have occurred
            later, in the 1983 time frame, I really can't be certain, but this "3 to 5
            initiation" was definitely done by Darwin.
            >
            > Also, I heard about one other person who went from 3rd to 5th. The really
            interesting thing is that I believe that both of these people had been in
            Eckankar for less than 10 years. Eckankar started in 1965, so 15-18 years was
            the absolute maximum time the person who spoke to me was in Eckankar. Plus, he
            never spoke about Paul Twitchell, and I'm very certain he joined Eckankar after
            Twitchell's death, making his maximum time in Eckankar about 10-13 years since
            Darwin started in 1971. I honestly think that 7 to 8 years is a better estimate
            of the time he was a member of Eckankar. He was only about 25 to 30 years old.
            >
            > By the way, regarding the person, B.S., who personally told me about skipping
            his 4th initiation. I asked him how that happened. He gave me an explanation,
            but I don't remember what it was. I believe it had something to do with the fact
            that he progressed spiritually so fast, he didn't need to "pause" at the fourth.
            But he wasn't arrogant so he probably said something like "the ECK need to
            progress people really fast."
            >
            > It has been mentioned in other posts on this message board that things are a
            lot different now, with many members of Eckankar going almost 30 years without
            receiving their 5th initiation.
            >
            > Years later, I did hear from a higher HI that Darwin gave a lot of initiations
            out to people who didn't really deserve them. Of course, during the time when
            Darwin was the LEM, whatever he did or didn't do was 100% accepted by Eckankar's
            membership, but after he was kicked out, everything Darwin did or didn't do was
            automatically suspect if not completely wrong.
            >
            > Jonathan


          • prometheus_973
            Hello Ed and All, Now that my memory of this has been refreshed I do recall Klemp mentioning people in Africa being promoted rapidly due to the need for EK
            Message 5 of 17 , Feb 2, 2010
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              Hello Ed and All,
              Now that my memory of this has been
              refreshed I do recall Klemp mentioning
              people in Africa being promoted rapidly
              due to the need for EK Leaders. I had
              no idea as to how it was being done
              and that initiations were being skipped!
              HK would (and still) always say how
              advanced and natural the Africans' beliefs
              were. But, from what I've heard, there's
              a lot of superstition, folk lore, and other
              beliefs mixed in with the EK teachings.

              Ed, can you share or elaborate on this?

              Apparently HK's policy of this skipping
              of initiations was a sin of omission on
              Klemp's part. He knew that other EKists
              wouldn't feel comfortable with this tactic.
              HK never shared these details with the
              membership. I guess that the general
              membership didn't need to know how
              he was conducting business since he
              doesn't have to report to anyone for his
              actions... like the Pope.

              It just goes to show that the EK Initiations
              can be manipulated for physical worldly
              gains... more sales leaders.

              It is hypocritical of Klemp to bring up
              the fact that Paul promoted people
              very rapidly to Higher Initiations due
              to need when Eckankar was in the
              early stages. Darwin did the same thing
              early on and was never criticized for it.
              When DG's and HK's conflict, in 1983,
              was coming to a head Darwin promoted
              500 EKists to the 5th initiation. The
              problem was really with Klemp's ego.
              Instead, Klemp made Darwin look like
              the bad guy on this, too, because of
              the other things that had taken place.

              However, as I said before, IF Darwin
              really was a Black Magician, as the nasty
              Klempster claimed, that would mean
              that those 500 EKists DG gave the 5th
              to had actually been initiated, unknowingly,
              into the Black Arts. Klemp claimed, at
              the time, that viewing Darwin's picture
              or reading his words could have psychic
              influence over ECKists. Where was Klemp's
              protection? This is why ECKists don't
              usually read outside (unapproved) books
              and info. Klemp has scared them from
              doing so. But, where's the "protection"
              from such things? Catch-22 again!

              Anyway, let's not forget Klemp promoting
              people in Europe rapidly as well. Plus,
              after the schism in 1983-1984 Klemp
              had gaps in EK leadership, due to H.I.s
              leaving to follow Darwin, and thus
              promoted his own group of H.I.s as fill-ins.
              Once again, the promotions (initiations)
              had nothing to do with Spiritual Growth.

              Yes, it's interesting to discuss these
              remembrances and piece together
              information about the EK Initiations.
              Klemp's cover-up and omissions on
              his own policy of skipping initiations
              is more proof that the initiations aren't
              what ECKists imagine them to be.
              The initiations are devalued when
              the truth about how and why they
              are manipulated becomes known.

              Of course, the true blue EKist will
              deny the truth. They need Eckankar
              (religion) and will rationalize. They
              turn a blind-eye to facts and to
              critical thinking. They want to and
              need to believe in Eckankar because
              they don't have a replacement belief.
              Also, Eckankar is convenient and like
              all religions it "answers" our questions
              with dogma that seems to make sense
              at times. And, the promises (imaginings)
              and dreams seem better than what other
              religions seem to teach and offer. But,
              that never ending "Service/Sales" crap
              is the real turnoff! Well actually, Klemp
              promoting his younger looking image
              in "Tips for ECK Study" and on "The
              Wisdom Notes" page is a real turn-off!
              Such vanity!

              Prometheus

              Ed Kusi wrote:

              Hi All,
              This 3-5th,and even 2-5th happened in
              Africa too. | personally know five HIs in
              one country who were jumped from 2nd
              and 3rd to the 5th Initiation. It happened
              in Darwin's time and the reasons given
              were as already mentioned in related posts.

              Pretujari

              prometheus wrote:

              Hello All,
              I just remembered something that
              I heard back in the 80s from a
              member of Klemp's EK Spiritual Council.
              This 8th said that Harold needed to
              make more H.I.s in Europe and that
              he was making exceptions out of
              necessity. And, HK had promoted
              one person (a man), in Eastern Europe,
              to the 9th. I never knew why this
              9th initiation thing was/is such a
              big secret. It's probably because
              HK doesn't want to build up any
              more expectations for those higher
              initiations anymore than he has
              already. That's why the "imagination"
              pacifier is pushed onto H.I.s.

              The only Catch to getting and keeping
              the 9th lies with that individual Not telling
              he/she is a 9th! However, this doesn't
              prevent Klemp from sharing this info
              with the membership. Twit more than
              likely started the "no tell" rule because
              he didn't want others to find out who
              he had promoted, behind the backs
              of his Spiritual Council, and be jealous.
              Gail was probably a 9th as is Joan!

              However, this "no tell" rule has been
              expanded. No ECKists are supposed
              to discuss (gossip about) the Ninth
              Initiation openly.This is one reason
              Klemp put this into the Masters 4 Discourse.
              He got the speculation about the 9th
              out of the way and at the same time
              prevented any discussion of the matter
              outside of The Master's 4 Satsang Class.
              No ECKists are to discuss their discourses
              outside of their Satsang Class! Plus,
              Klemp has eliminated any other discussion,
              second guessing, or questions and
              speculation by referring to such as "gossip."
              If any ECKist is reported for "gossiping"
              any future initiations will be put on
              hold. This is a fact that most long-time
              H.I.s are well aware of. This is just another
              fear tactic that Klemp uses to control his
              flock and to keep them on task and sell
              Eckankar! if Klemp had any true powers
              or divine insight he wouldn't need his
              spies, or the RESA police, or "stories"
              mailed to him for use in his talks, books,
              and EK publications.

              prometheus wrote:

              Hello Ingrid and All,
              Yes, I know Bettine Clemen (Ware) too.
              I didn't know that about ECKists getting
              several initiations in one day. Was that
              during Paul's reign, or Darwin's or both?
              I know that Klemp would never do that...
              he's too stingy! And, HK's RESA hierarchy
              can't deal with higher ranking H.I.s
              residing within their Satsangs. Although,
              Bob Lawton (Klemp's former body guard)
              is both an 8th and a RESA. That's the only
              exception, but it does set a precedent.

              IMO- The Glass Ceiling for 7ths is unjustified.
              Why isn't there a more proportionate number
              of 8ths to 7ths?

              And, since there ARE a few ECK 9th Initiates
              lurking around why wouldn't that initiation
              be the actual Glass Ceiling, thus, allowing
              at least 500 8th Initiates.

              Actually, why does Klemp have these Glass
              Ceilings? It's because he's a narcissist and
              doen't want to share. He's a two faced
              hypocrite! He talks about love and compassion,
              but Not forgiveness! Thus, he has never
              mentioned Darwin's (972nd LEM) death
              to the ECK Membership let alone say
              something nice about the former ECK
              Master. That was the "test" that Klemp
              failed. And when he fails a test like that
              it means that he, too, has fallen from Grace!
              His attachment to Power keeps him on the
              throne.

              Anyway, If Klemp wanted to he could have
              promoted two or three initiates to the 12th.
              Not all 12ths have to be LEMs and not all LEMs
              have to be Mahantas... right? Sure!

              And, to insure that these 12ths wouldn't
              threaten his reign HK could have made them
              all females. In ECKankar females can't become
              LEM/Mahantas due to law/science/ tradition
              or whatever. Klemp is just an old tired ass
              selfish, mean spirited and fearful fuddy duddy
              stuck in the past.

              Klemp's negative behaviour and lack of
              compassion towards Darwin, and especially
              his death, is proof that he is both a hypocrite
              and a fraud. But, this is human/KAL behaviour
              typical of all religions and their leaders.

              Unfortunately, ECKists (the most advanced
              Souls ever, LOL) have tunnel vision and blinders
              on. They can only focus upon that carrot (the
              promise of more initiations leading to God-
              Realization) as they trot along doing Service,
              Surrendering, HUing, spending money on EK
              materials and seminars, taking more training,
              following the Guidelines and acting "as if" the
              lies of PT and HK are the ultimate truth. Such
              is religious belief. It may feel good and give
              you some hope, peace of mind and security,
              but it's not Reality or Truth! It's just filler...
              like Klemp's simple-minded redundant books!

              In truth, all religions and their dogmas are
              "tests" for the more "advanced" Souls. When
              one is able to finally see the correlations and
              the lies and beyond the "group think" then
              one is able to see with more clarity and discard
              all religion. The veils of illusion slowly disappear
              until one can commune privately, one-to-one,
              with Divine Spirit.

              Soul doesn't need a LEM or Mahanta or
              a Master or a priest, or a Pope to intervene
              or guide them on the Outer or Inner Planes.
              Of course, all religions (including Eckankar)
              cannot tolerate such statements. This is
              heresy! People are executed, even today,
              by religionists who claim to love God.
              But, why does God need to be protected?

              Thus, those religionists who attack us,
              and the Truth, are ignorant, fearful,
              weak-minded followers, and are immature
              Souls.

              Prometheus

              ctecvie wrote:
              Hi Jonathan and all,

              my husband knew Bettine Clemen personally.
              She once told him that either she or some people
              she knew (I'm not sure) got the 3rd, 4th and 5th
              initiations in one day - one or two in the morning
              and the last one(s) in the afternoon!

              At the time they needed a lot of higher initiates
              as eckankar was still young. Now there are so
              many HIs that they had to introduce a glass ceiling -
              I guess that's why initiations are slowed down
              so much!

              It's all about administration and money, and power
              of course ... :-))

              Ingrid

              jonathanjohns wrote:
              >
              > Prometheus,
              >
              > I'm going to add a few "facts" from my personal experience in the 1980-1983
              time frame to the discussion.
              >
              > In your post just before the one I am responding to, you stated that "[Darwin]
              Gross promoted 1000 Eckists to the 5th!" And then you followed it up with
              "Ooops! I think that was 500 (not 1000) to the 5th, and around 1983 just before
              being kicked out by Klemp!"
              >
              > I joined Eckanakar around 1979 so I got in on the last few years of Darwin
              Gross' time as the LEM. I believe it was around 1980/1981 that a member of
              Eckankar, B.S., told me that he was promoted directly from 3rd initiate to 5th
              initiate. In other words, he skipped his 4th initiation. This may have occurred
              later, in the 1983 time frame, I really can't be certain, but this "3 to 5
              initiation" was definitely done by Darwin.
              >
              > Also, I heard about one other person who went from 3rd to 5th. The really
              interesting thing is that I believe that both of these people had been in
              Eckankar for less than 10 years. Eckankar started in 1965, so 15-18 years was
              the absolute maximum time the person who spoke to me was in Eckankar. Plus, he
              never spoke about Paul Twitchell, and I'm very certain he joined Eckankar after
              Twitchell's death, making his maximum time in Eckankar about 10-13 years since
              Darwin started in 1971. I honestly think that 7 to 8 years is a better estimate
              of the time he was a member of Eckankar. He was only about 25 to 30 years old.
              >
              > By the way, regarding the person, B.S., who personally told me about skipping
              his 4th initiation. I asked him how that happened. He gave me an explanation,
              but I don't remember what it was. I believe it had something to do with the fact
              that he progressed spiritually so fast, he didn't need to "pause" at the fourth.
              But he wasn't arrogant so he probably said something like "the ECK need to
              progress people really fast."
              >
              > It has been mentioned in other posts on this message board that things are a
              lot different now, with many members of Eckankar going almost 30 years without
              receiving their 5th initiation.
              >
              > Years later, I did hear from a higher HI that Darwin gave a lot of initiations
              out to people who didn't really deserve them. Of course, during the time when
              Darwin was the LEM, whatever he did or didn't do was 100% accepted by Eckankar's
              membership, but after he was kicked out, everything Darwin did or didn't do was
              automatically suspect if not completely wrong.
              >
              > Jonathan
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