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Re: 3rd initiation to 5th initiation (not me) in 1980-83 time frame

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  • prometheus_973
    Hi Jonathan, Okay, I ll give your questions a shot from my perspectives as a former H.I. and EK Leader. Yes, we had people like this turn up every now and then
    Message 1 of 17 , Jan 31, 2010
      Hi Jonathan,
      Okay, I'll give your questions a shot from my
      perspectives as a former H.I. and EK Leader.
      Yes, we had people like this turn up every now
      and then over the decades. Some had years on
      me and yet I'd never seen them before. Others
      were from other parts of the state or had left
      Eckankar and then returned. Some had been
      on a rest period, or were on a rest period and
      didn't know anything "current." Anyone not
      wanting to stick out like a sore thumb just needs
      to quote the Shariyat, or talk about the Mahanta's
      love, or about Surrender and they should fit-in
      as though they had never been gone.

      I'll respond to the questions below--


      Jonathan wrote:
      I'd like to change the subject a little bit. In my last year in Eckankar, we had
      a "guest" at a worship service, which is something that almost never happened.
      He was very quiet, middle-aged in his 50s I suppose. I thought he wasn't a
      member of Eckankar. A week or two later I learned that he was a member, had been
      for about 20 to 30 years (I can't remember the exact number), but he just never
      attended official Eckankar activities. I was really surprised. The higher HI who
      gave me the information about him said that there are a lot of members in the
      local area like this. By the way, he did live about an hour drive from the
      center.

      So, Prometheus, I would like to ask you two
      questions since you were active in the functioning
      of your Eck center.

      1.) Were you aware of people like this who had
      zero involvement in the outer functions of Eckankar?


      P- Yes, at times there I had never met some
      of those on the ESC's membership list. Others
      I knew of. Some only came to the ECK Worship
      Service (EWS) or to Satsang. Sometimes I would
      try to get them to volunteer by finding out what
      they might like to do and then I would have that
      specific coordinator speak to them. It was very
      important to welcome and befriend them and
      make them feel at home and want to join in and
      socialize and to give them a volunteer position
      so that they would feel needed. I then tried to
      get them into Satsang Classes. Of course
      that was another problem because I had to have
      a Satsang Arahata to teach the class. Some EKists
      took the Arahata Training, but still hadn't taught
      a class after two years which, according to the Guidelines,
      meant that they needed to be retrained. Retraining
      was a problem because there needed to be trainers
      available to do the retraining. Everything in Eckankar
      takes forever to accomplish. And, in the end after
      everything is said and done, only a handful of people
      ever join and even fewer renew after the first year.
      Word of mouth or Klemp getting on the radio or
      TV would be best, but Klemp is lazy and a faker
      that can't handle the heat. His main focus is to
      keep ECKists busy and involved and to sell them
      more EK materials ($)... to distribute to the trash
      cans.

      2.) And do you think that these people were commonly
      passed over for initiations?

      P- Well, that depends on who you know as well.
      I had a 4th who finally became a volunteer after
      many years of membership. I gave him an important
      coordinator position. However, he quit the position
      after six months! One promises that they will stay
      in the EK position for one year (ending on Oct.22).
      Apparently he had some pull with some friends of
      the RESA and I was never called about his initiation.
      He soon got his 5th! I would never have approved
      him. His knowledge of the EK teachings were poor
      and he was a poor example for an EK leader. He
      did make an attempt to turn over a "new leaf" but
      it was too little too late. To this day he's still a
      poor excuse for a H.I., but that's good!

      Other people who don't volunteer or attend
      the appropriate training classes for advancement
      will be passed over. Plus, one has to have an
      "active" membership. If you're on a rest period
      then your time-in-grade for advancement is
      frozen. Also, one has to watch out what they
      say, where and when, and to whom they say it.
      Sometimes honestly is not the best policy! If
      you get put on the RESA's Black List and are
      passed over you can be in the toilet for "at least"
      three years or until you prove yourself to the
      Next RESA.

      I've seen it happen where the RESA stepped
      down and people who never had a chance of
      getting promoted finally got promoted! I've
      also seen people move to other states and get
      promoted immediately under a different (nicer)
      RESA. It happens all the time. Attend enough
      seminars and talk to enough EK Leaders and
      you can hear all sorts of "stories" that Klemp
      doesn't want to hear or know about. So much
      for the "All Knowing Mahanta!"

      Yes, I remember back in the mid 80's that
      there were Circles of Initiation Workshops
      and that some H.I.s had to pass at being
      facilitators on certain ones (third & fourth)
      because they either skipped that initiation
      or had been in it for only a few months before
      getting promoted. How can one talk about
      the trials and tribulations of the 4th when
      you skipped it or had been in it for a few
      months?

      Prometheus





      jonathan wrote:
      Prometheus,

      Thanks for your reply. You said "I had heard that people had skipped initiations
      and this was years prior to Darwin's fall." I thought it was about 1980-1981
      when this person told me this, but he might have received his 5th years before.
      So thank you for your verification that you heard about it years before Darwin's
      fall. He was a very honest person, I don't doubt that he skipped his 4th, just
      as he told me that he did. After all, if he was going to lie, he probably would
      have said that it didn't happen in order to cover up the fact. I wanted to
      mention it just as a way of attempting to preserve the "true history" of
      Eckankar. I'm not sure why I care about doing that (for them) but I do. I guess
      I don't want to see them put out their fabricated history of Eckankar where they
      say "rumors that people in the past skipped imitations are untrue." I could just
      see that happening. But I still don't know why I care. I guess I believe the
      world deserves an honest history of Eckankar. And I certainly don't trust them
      to do it.

      You also said "One person who posted here on ESA recently, Colleen Russell, made
      it to the 7th in 10 years or less." That is truly amazing, isn't it? It makes my
      recollection (and interpretation) of the Eckist I spoke to, B.S., making it to
      the 5th in 7 to 8 years by 1981 all the more believable. But he was definitely
      doing all the "right stuff," I feel because he really believed in it. A few
      years later he went to work for the International office.

      You also said "I knew of one Eckist who got on the wrong side of his Klemp-Kal
      like RESA and remained a 4th for 25 years!" My experience was that I got my 5th
      on the "29 year mark." But I did take a five year sabbatical. And I wasn't doing
      any of the right things. I didn't give talks. I put up some posters with some
      other people one time. I never volunteered at the Eck center. I did volunteer at
      an Eckankar booth at a health fair one time. I did attend the Worship Services,
      at times fairly regularly, but I guess that didn't count for very much.

      Also, I thought the initiation were based on my spiritual progress. I thought
      Klemp was hard at work on the inner, keeping track of me, much like Santa Clause
      does. So I had no clue that your next initiation was based on doing volunteer
      work to promote Eckankar.

      So it truly is amazing to see the differences between now and back in the days
      when Darwin was the LEM. I think you have already mentioned this many times, but
      I think that a lot of it has to do with the fact that Klemp has become more and
      more paranoid through the years. And so he demands more and more and more
      through the years before he even trusts any members. I must admit that when you
      were discussing the difference between Darwin and today's Klemp, I didn't
      realize how severe the difference was.

      I'd like to change the subject a little bit. In my last year in Eckankar, we had
      a "guest" at a worship service, which is something that almost never happened.
      He was very quiet, middle-aged in his 50s I suppose. I thought he wasn't a
      member of Eckankar. A week or two later I learned that he was a member, had been
      for about 20 to 30 years (I can't remember the exact number), but he just never
      attended official Eckankar activities. I was really surprised. The higher HI who
      gave me the information about him said that there are a lot of members in the
      local area like this. By the way, he did live about an hour drive from the
      center.

      So, Prometheus, I would like to ask you two questions since you were active in
      the functioning of your Eck center. Were you aware of people like this who had
      zero involvement in the outer functions of Eckankar? And do you think that these
      people were commonly passed over for initiations?

      Jonathan
    • ctecvie
      Hi Jonathan and all, my husband knew Bettine Clemen personally. She once told him that either she or some people she knew (I m not sure) got the 3rd, 4th and
      Message 2 of 17 , Feb 1, 2010
        Hi Jonathan and all,

        my husband knew Bettine Clemen personally. She once told him that either she or some people she knew (I'm not sure) got the 3rd, 4th and 5th initiations in one day - one or two in the morning and the last one(s) in the afternoon!

        At the time they needed a lot of higher initiates as eckankar was still young. Now there are so many HIs that they had to introduce a glass ceiling - I guess that's why initiations are slowed down so much!

        It's all about administration and money, and power of course ... :-))
        Ingrid

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96" <jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:
        >
        > Prometheus,
        >
        > I'm going to add a few "facts" from my personal experience in the 1980-1983 time frame to the discussion.
        >
        > In your post just before the one I am responding to, you stated that "[Darwin] Gross promoted 1000 Eckists to the 5th!" And then you followed it up with "Ooops! I think that was 500 (not 1000) to the 5th, and around 1983 just before being kicked out by Klemp!"
        >
        > I joined Eckanakar around 1979 so I got in on the last few years of Darwin Gross' time as the LEM. I believe it was around 1980/1981 that a member of Eckankar, B.S., told me that he was promoted directly from 3rd initiate to 5th initiate. In other words, he skipped his 4th initiation. This may have occurred later, in the 1983 time frame, I really can't be certain, but this "3 to 5 initiation" was definitely done by Darwin.
        >
        > Also, I heard about one other person who went from 3rd to 5th. The really interesting thing is that I believe that both of these people had been in Eckankar for less than 10 years. Eckankar started in 1965, so 15-18 years was the absolute maximum time the person who spoke to me was in Eckankar. Plus, he never spoke about Paul Twitchell, and I'm very certain he joined Eckankar after Twitchell's death, making his maximum time in Eckankar about 10-13 years since Darwin started in 1971. I honestly think that 7 to 8 years is a better estimate of the time he was a member of Eckankar. He was only about 25 to 30 years old.
        >
        > By the way, regarding the person, B.S., who personally told me about skipping his 4th initiation. I asked him how that happened. He gave me an explanation, but I don't remember what it was. I believe it had something to do with the fact that he progressed spiritually so fast, he didn't need to "pause" at the fourth. But he wasn't arrogant so he probably said something like "the ECK need to progress people really fast."
        >
        > It has been mentioned in other posts on this message board that things are a lot different now, with many members of Eckankar going almost 30 years without receiving their 5th initiation.
        >
        > Years later, I did hear from a higher HI that Darwin gave a lot of initiations out to people who didn't really deserve them. Of course, during the time when Darwin was the LEM, whatever he did or didn't do was 100% accepted by Eckankar's membership, but after he was kicked out, everything Darwin did or didn't do was automatically suspect if not completely wrong.
        >
        > Jonathan
        >
      • prometheus_973
        Hello Ingrid and All, Yes, I know Bettine Clemen (Ware) too. I didn t know that about ECKists getting several initiations in one day. Was that during Paul s
        Message 3 of 17 , Feb 1, 2010
          Hello Ingrid and All,
          Yes, I know Bettine Clemen (Ware) too.
          I didn't know that about ECKists getting
          several initiations in one day. Was that
          during Paul's reign, or Darwin's or both?
          I know that Klemp would never do that...
          he's too stingy! And, HK's RESA hierarchy
          can't deal with higher ranking H.I.s
          residing within their Satsangs. Although,
          Bob Lawton (Klemp's former body guard)
          is both an 8th and a RESA. That's the only
          exception, but it does set a precedent.

          IMO- The Glass Ceiling for 7ths is unjustified.
          Why isn't there a more proportionate number
          of 8ths to 7ths?

          And, since there ARE a few ECK 9th Initiates
          lurking around why wouldn't that initiation
          be the actual Glass Ceiling, thus, allowing
          at least 500 8th Initiates.

          Actually, why does Klemp have these Glass
          Ceilings? It's because he's a narcissist and
          doen't want to share. He's a two faced
          hypocrite! He talks about love and compassion,
          but Not forgiveness! Thus, he has never
          mentioned Darwin's (972nd LEM) death
          to the ECK Membership let alone say
          something nice about the former ECK
          Master. That was the "test" that Klemp
          failed. And when he fails a test like that
          it means that he, too, has fallen from Grace!
          His attachment to Power keeps him on the
          throne.

          Anyway, If Klemp wanted to he could have
          promoted two or three initiates to the 12th.
          Not all 12ths have to be LEMs and not all LEMs
          have to be Mahantas... right? Sure!

          And, to insure that these 12ths wouldn't
          threaten his reign HK could have made them
          all females. In ECKankar females can't become
          LEM/Mahantas due to law/science/tradition
          or whatever. Klemp is just an old tired ass
          selfish, mean spirited and fearful fuddy duddy
          stuck in the past.

          Klemp's negative behaviour and lack of
          compassion towards Darwin, and especially
          his death, is proof that he is both a hypocrite
          and a fraud. But, this is human/KAL behaviour
          typical of all religions and their leaders.

          Unfortunately, ECKists (the most advanced
          Souls ever, LOL) have tunnel vision and blinders
          on. They can only focus upon that carrot (the
          promise of more initiations leading to God-
          Realization) as they trot along doing Service,
          Surrendering, HUing, spending money on EK
          materials and seminars, taking more training,
          following the Guidelines and acting "as if" the
          lies of PT and HK are the ultimate truth. Such
          is religious belief. It may feel good and give
          you some hope, peace of mind and security,
          but it's not Reality or Truth! It's just filler...
          like Klemp's simple-minded redundant books!

          In truth, all religions and their dogmas are
          "tests" for the more "advanced" Souls. When
          one is able to finally see the correlations and
          the lies and beyond the "group think" then
          one is able to see with more clarity and discard
          all religion. The veils of illusion slowly disappear
          until one can commune privately, one-to-one,
          with Divine Spirit.

          Soul doesn't need a LEM or Mahanta or
          a Master or a priest, or a Pope to intervene
          or guide them on the Outer or Inner Planes.
          Of course, all religions (including Eckankar)
          cannot tolerate such statements. This is
          heresy! People are executed, even today,
          by religionists who claim to love God.
          But, why does God need to be protected?

          Thus, those religionists who attack us,
          and the Truth, are ignorant, fearful,
          weak-minded followers, and are immature
          Souls.

          Prometheus


          ctecvie wrote:
          Hi Jonathan and all,

          my husband knew Bettine Clemen personally.
          She once told him that either she or some people
          she knew (I'm not sure) got the 3rd, 4th and 5th
          initiations in one day - one or two in the morning
          and the last one(s) in the afternoon!

          At the time they needed a lot of higher initiates
          as eckankar was still young. Now there are so
          many HIs that they had to introduce a glass ceiling -
          I guess that's why initiations are slowed down
          so much!

          It's all about administration and money, and power
          of course ... :-))

          Ingrid

          jonathanjohns wrote:
          >
          > Prometheus,
          >
          > I'm going to add a few "facts" from my personal experience in the 1980-1983
          time frame to the discussion.
          >
          > In your post just before the one I am responding to, you stated that "[Darwin]
          Gross promoted 1000 Eckists to the 5th!" And then you followed it up with
          "Ooops! I think that was 500 (not 1000) to the 5th, and around 1983 just before
          being kicked out by Klemp!"
          >
          > I joined Eckanakar around 1979 so I got in on the last few years of Darwin
          Gross' time as the LEM. I believe it was around 1980/1981 that a member of
          Eckankar, B.S., told me that he was promoted directly from 3rd initiate to 5th
          initiate. In other words, he skipped his 4th initiation. This may have occurred
          later, in the 1983 time frame, I really can't be certain, but this "3 to 5
          initiation" was definitely done by Darwin.
          >
          > Also, I heard about one other person who went from 3rd to 5th. The really
          interesting thing is that I believe that both of these people had been in
          Eckankar for less than 10 years. Eckankar started in 1965, so 15-18 years was
          the absolute maximum time the person who spoke to me was in Eckankar. Plus, he
          never spoke about Paul Twitchell, and I'm very certain he joined Eckankar after
          Twitchell's death, making his maximum time in Eckankar about 10-13 years since
          Darwin started in 1971. I honestly think that 7 to 8 years is a better estimate
          of the time he was a member of Eckankar. He was only about 25 to 30 years old.
          >
          > By the way, regarding the person, B.S., who personally told me about skipping
          his 4th initiation. I asked him how that happened. He gave me an explanation,
          but I don't remember what it was. I believe it had something to do with the fact
          that he progressed spiritually so fast, he didn't need to "pause" at the fourth.
          But he wasn't arrogant so he probably said something like "the ECK need to
          progress people really fast."
          >
          > It has been mentioned in other posts on this message board that things are a
          lot different now, with many members of Eckankar going almost 30 years without
          receiving their 5th initiation.
          >
          > Years later, I did hear from a higher HI that Darwin gave a lot of initiations
          out to people who didn't really deserve them. Of course, during the time when
          Darwin was the LEM, whatever he did or didn't do was 100% accepted by Eckankar's
          membership, but after he was kicked out, everything Darwin did or didn't do was
          automatically suspect if not completely wrong.
          >
          > Jonathan
          >
        • prometheus_973
          Hello All, I just remembered something that I heard back in the 80s from a member of Klemp s EK Spiritual Council. This 8th said that Harold needed to make
          Message 4 of 17 , Feb 1, 2010
            Hello All,
            I just remembered something that
            I heard back in the 80s from a
            member of Klemp's EK Spiritual Council.
            This 8th said that Harold needed to
            make more H.I.s in Europe and that
            he was making exceptions out of
            necessity. And, HK had promoted
            one person (a man), in Eastern Europe,
            to the 9th. I never knew why this
            9th initiation thing was/is such a
            big secret. It's probably because
            HK doesn't want to build up any
            more expectations for those higher
            initiations anymore than he has
            already. That's why the "imagination"
            pacifier is pushed onto H.I.s.

            The only Catch to getting and keeping
            the 9th lies with that individual Not telling
            he/she is a 9th! However, this doesn't
            prevent Klemp from sharing this info
            with the membership. Twit more than
            likely started the "no tell" rule because
            he didn't want others to find out who
            he had promoted, behind the backs
            of his Spiritual Council, and be jealous.
            Gail was probably a 9th as is Joan!

            However, this "no tell" rule has been
            expanded. No ECKists are supposed
            to discuss (gossip about) the Ninth
            Initiation openly.This is one reason
            Klemp put this into the Masters 4 Discourse.
            He got the speculation about the 9th
            out of the way and at the same time
            prevented any discussion of the matter
            outside of The Master's 4 Satsang Class.
            No ECKists are to discuss their discourses
            outside of their Satsang Class! Plus,
            Klemp has eliminated any other discussion,
            second guessing, or questions and
            speculation by referring to such as "gossip."
            If any ECKist is reported for "gossiping"
            any future initiations will be put on
            hold. This is a fact that most long-time
            H.I.s are well aware of. This is just another
            fear tactic that Klemp uses to control his
            flock and to keep them on task and sell
            Eckankar! if Klemp had any true powers
            or divine insight he wouldn't need his
            spies, or the RESA police, or "stories"
            mailed to him for use in his talks, books,
            and EK publications.


            prometheus wrote:

            Hello Ingrid and All,
            Yes, I know Bettine Clemen (Ware) too.
            I didn't know that about ECKists getting
            several initiations in one day. Was that
            during Paul's reign, or Darwin's or both?
            I know that Klemp would never do that...
            he's too stingy! And, HK's RESA hierarchy
            can't deal with higher ranking H.I.s
            residing within their Satsangs. Although,
            Bob Lawton (Klemp's former body guard)
            is both an 8th and a RESA. That's the only
            exception, but it does set a precedent.

            IMO- The Glass Ceiling for 7ths is unjustified.
            Why isn't there a more proportionate number
            of 8ths to 7ths?

            And, since there ARE a few ECK 9th Initiates
            lurking around why wouldn't that initiation
            be the actual Glass Ceiling, thus, allowing
            at least 500 8th Initiates.

            Actually, why does Klemp have these Glass
            Ceilings? It's because he's a narcissist and
            doen't want to share. He's a two faced
            hypocrite! He talks about love and compassion,
            but Not forgiveness! Thus, he has never
            mentioned Darwin's (972nd LEM) death
            to the ECK Membership let alone say
            something nice about the former ECK
            Master. That was the "test" that Klemp
            failed. And when he fails a test like that
            it means that he, too, has fallen from Grace!
            His attachment to Power keeps him on the
            throne.

            Anyway, If Klemp wanted to he could have
            promoted two or three initiates to the 12th.
            Not all 12ths have to be LEMs and not all LEMs
            have to be Mahantas... right? Sure!

            And, to insure that these 12ths wouldn't
            threaten his reign HK could have made them
            all females. In ECKankar females can't become
            LEM/Mahantas due to law/science/tradition
            or whatever. Klemp is just an old tired ass
            selfish, mean spirited and fearful fuddy duddy
            stuck in the past.

            Klemp's negative behaviour and lack of
            compassion towards Darwin, and especially
            his death, is proof that he is both a hypocrite
            and a fraud. But, this is human/KAL behaviour
            typical of all religions and their leaders.

            Unfortunately, ECKists (the most advanced
            Souls ever, LOL) have tunnel vision and blinders
            on. They can only focus upon that carrot (the
            promise of more initiations leading to God-
            Realization) as they trot along doing Service,
            Surrendering, HUing, spending money on EK
            materials and seminars, taking more training,
            following the Guidelines and acting "as if" the
            lies of PT and HK are the ultimate truth. Such
            is religious belief. It may feel good and give
            you some hope, peace of mind and security,
            but it's not Reality or Truth! It's just filler...
            like Klemp's simple-minded redundant books!

            In truth, all religions and their dogmas are
            "tests" for the more "advanced" Souls. When
            one is able to finally see the correlations and
            the lies and beyond the "group think" then
            one is able to see with more clarity and discard
            all religion. The veils of illusion slowly disappear
            until one can commune privately, one-to-one,
            with Divine Spirit.

            Soul doesn't need a LEM or Mahanta or
            a Master or a priest, or a Pope to intervene
            or guide them on the Outer or Inner Planes.
            Of course, all religions (including Eckankar)
            cannot tolerate such statements. This is
            heresy! People are executed, even today,
            by religionists who claim to love God.
            But, why does God need to be protected?

            Thus, those religionists who attack us,
            and the Truth, are ignorant, fearful,
            weak-minded followers, and are immature
            Souls.

            Prometheus


            ctecvie wrote:
            Hi Jonathan and all,

            my husband knew Bettine Clemen personally.
            She once told him that either she or some people
            she knew (I'm not sure) got the 3rd, 4th and 5th
            initiations in one day - one or two in the morning
            and the last one(s) in the afternoon!

            At the time they needed a lot of higher initiates
            as eckankar was still young. Now there are so
            many HIs that they had to introduce a glass ceiling -
            I guess that's why initiations are slowed down
            so much!

            It's all about administration and money, and power
            of course ... :-))

            Ingrid

            jonathanjohns wrote:
            >
            > Prometheus,
            >
            > I'm going to add a few "facts" from my personal experience in the 1980-1983
            time frame to the discussion.
            >
            > In your post just before the one I am responding to, you stated that "[Darwin]
            Gross promoted 1000 Eckists to the 5th!" And then you followed it up with
            "Ooops! I think that was 500 (not 1000) to the 5th, and around 1983 just before
            being kicked out by Klemp!"
            >
            > I joined Eckanakar around 1979 so I got in on the last few years of Darwin
            Gross' time as the LEM. I believe it was around 1980/1981 that a member of
            Eckankar, B.S., told me that he was promoted directly from 3rd initiate to 5th
            initiate. In other words, he skipped his 4th initiation. This may have occurred
            later, in the 1983 time frame, I really can't be certain, but this "3 to 5
            initiation" was definitely done by Darwin.
            >
            > Also, I heard about one other person who went from 3rd to 5th. The really
            interesting thing is that I believe that both of these people had been in
            Eckankar for less than 10 years. Eckankar started in 1965, so 15-18 years was
            the absolute maximum time the person who spoke to me was in Eckankar. Plus, he
            never spoke about Paul Twitchell, and I'm very certain he joined Eckankar after
            Twitchell's death, making his maximum time in Eckankar about 10-13 years since
            Darwin started in 1971. I honestly think that 7 to 8 years is a better estimate
            of the time he was a member of Eckankar. He was only about 25 to 30 years old.
            >
            > By the way, regarding the person, B.S., who personally told me about skipping
            his 4th initiation. I asked him how that happened. He gave me an explanation,
            but I don't remember what it was. I believe it had something to do with the fact
            that he progressed spiritually so fast, he didn't need to "pause" at the fourth.
            But he wasn't arrogant so he probably said something like "the ECK need to
            progress people really fast."
            >
            > It has been mentioned in other posts on this message board that things are a
            lot different now, with many members of Eckankar going almost 30 years without
            receiving their 5th initiation.
            >
            > Years later, I did hear from a higher HI that Darwin gave a lot of initiations
            out to people who didn't really deserve them. Of course, during the time when
            Darwin was the LEM, whatever he did or didn't do was 100% accepted by Eckankar's
            membership, but after he was kicked out, everything Darwin did or didn't do was
            automatically suspect if not completely wrong.
            >
            > Jonathan
          • Ed Kusi
            Hi All, This 3-5th,and even 2-5th happened in Africa too. | personally know five HIs in one country who were jumped from 2nd and 3rd to the 5th Initiation. It
            Message 5 of 17 , Feb 1, 2010
              Hi All,
              This 3-5th,and even 2-5th happened in Africa too. | personally know five HIs in one country who were jumped from 2nd and 3rd to the 5th Initiation. It happened in Darwin's time and the reasons given were as already mentioned in related posts.

              Pretujari

              --- On Mon, 2/1/10, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

              From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: 3rd initiation to 5th initiation (not me) in 1980-1983 time frame
              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Monday, February 1, 2010, 2:03 PM

               

              Hello All,
              I just remembered something that
              I heard back in the 80s from a
              member of Klemp's EK Spiritual Council.
              This 8th said that Harold needed to
              make more H.I.s in Europe and that
              he was making exceptions out of
              necessity. And, HK had promoted
              one person (a man), in Eastern Europe,
              to the 9th. I never knew why this
              9th initiation thing was/is such a
              big secret. It's probably because
              HK doesn't want to build up any
              more expectations for those higher
              initiations anymore than he has
              already. That's why the "imagination"
              pacifier is pushed onto H.I.s.

              The only Catch to getting and keeping
              the 9th lies with that individual Not telling
              he/she is a 9th! However, this doesn't
              prevent Klemp from sharing this info
              with the membership. Twit more than
              likely started the "no tell" rule because
              he didn't want others to find out who
              he had promoted, behind the backs
              of his Spiritual Council, and be jealous.
              Gail was probably a 9th as is Joan!

              However, this "no tell" rule has been
              expanded. No ECKists are supposed
              to discuss (gossip about) the Ninth
              Initiation openly.This is one reason
              Klemp put this into the Masters 4 Discourse.
              He got the speculation about the 9th
              out of the way and at the same time
              prevented any discussion of the matter
              outside of The Master's 4 Satsang Class.
              No ECKists are to discuss their discourses
              outside of their Satsang Class! Plus,
              Klemp has eliminated any other discussion,
              second guessing, or questions and
              speculation by referring to such as "gossip."
              If any ECKist is reported for "gossiping"
              any future initiations will be put on
              hold. This is a fact that most long-time
              H.I.s are well aware of. This is just another
              fear tactic that Klemp uses to control his
              flock and to keep them on task and sell
              Eckankar! if Klemp had any true powers
              or divine insight he wouldn't need his
              spies, or the RESA police, or "stories"
              mailed to him for use in his talks, books,
              and EK publications.

              prometheus wrote:

              Hello Ingrid and All,
              Yes, I know Bettine Clemen (Ware) too.
              I didn't know that about ECKists getting
              several initiations in one day. Was that
              during Paul's reign, or Darwin's or both?
              I know that Klemp would never do that...
              he's too stingy! And, HK's RESA hierarchy
              can't deal with higher ranking H.I.s
              residing within their Satsangs. Although,
              Bob Lawton (Klemp's former body guard)
              is both an 8th and a RESA. That's the only
              exception, but it does set a precedent.

              IMO- The Glass Ceiling for 7ths is unjustified.
              Why isn't there a more proportionate number
              of 8ths to 7ths?

              And, since there ARE a few ECK 9th Initiates
              lurking around why wouldn't that initiation
              be the actual Glass Ceiling, thus, allowing
              at least 500 8th Initiates.

              Actually, why does Klemp have these Glass
              Ceilings? It's because he's a narcissist and
              doen't want to share. He's a two faced
              hypocrite! He talks about love and compassion,
              but Not forgiveness! Thus, he has never
              mentioned Darwin's (972nd LEM) death
              to the ECK Membership let alone say
              something nice about the former ECK
              Master. That was the "test" that Klemp
              failed. And when he fails a test like that
              it means that he, too, has fallen from Grace!
              His attachment to Power keeps him on the
              throne.

              Anyway, If Klemp wanted to he could have
              promoted two or three initiates to the 12th.
              Not all 12ths have to be LEMs and not all LEMs
              have to be Mahantas... right? Sure!

              And, to insure that these 12ths wouldn't
              threaten his reign HK could have made them
              all females. In ECKankar females can't become
              LEM/Mahantas due to law/science/ tradition
              or whatever. Klemp is just an old tired ass
              selfish, mean spirited and fearful fuddy duddy
              stuck in the past.

              Klemp's negative behaviour and lack of
              compassion towards Darwin, and especially
              his death, is proof that he is both a hypocrite
              and a fraud. But, this is human/KAL behaviour
              typical of all religions and their leaders.

              Unfortunately, ECKists (the most advanced
              Souls ever, LOL) have tunnel vision and blinders
              on. They can only focus upon that carrot (the
              promise of more initiations leading to God-
              Realization) as they trot along doing Service,
              Surrendering, HUing, spending money on EK
              materials and seminars, taking more training,
              following the Guidelines and acting "as if" the
              lies of PT and HK are the ultimate truth. Such
              is religious belief. It may feel good and give
              you some hope, peace of mind and security,
              but it's not Reality or Truth! It's just filler...
              like Klemp's simple-minded redundant books!

              In truth, all religions and their dogmas are
              "tests" for the more "advanced" Souls. When
              one is able to finally see the correlations and
              the lies and beyond the "group think" then
              one is able to see with more clarity and discard
              all religion. The veils of illusion slowly disappear
              until one can commune privately, one-to-one,
              with Divine Spirit.

              Soul doesn't need a LEM or Mahanta or
              a Master or a priest, or a Pope to intervene
              or guide them on the Outer or Inner Planes.
              Of course, all religions (including Eckankar)
              cannot tolerate such statements. This is
              heresy! People are executed, even today,
              by religionists who claim to love God.
              But, why does God need to be protected?

              Thus, those religionists who attack us,
              and the Truth, are ignorant, fearful,
              weak-minded followers, and are immature
              Souls.

              Prometheus

              ctecvie wrote:
              Hi Jonathan and all,

              my husband knew Bettine Clemen personally.
              She once told him that either she or some people
              she knew (I'm not sure) got the 3rd, 4th and 5th
              initiations in one day - one or two in the morning
              and the last one(s) in the afternoon!

              At the time they needed a lot of higher initiates
              as eckankar was still young. Now there are so
              many HIs that they had to introduce a glass ceiling -
              I guess that's why initiations are slowed down
              so much!

              It's all about administration and money, and power
              of course ... :-))

              Ingrid

              jonathanjohns wrote:
              >
              > Prometheus,
              >
              > I'm going to add a few "facts" from my personal experience in the 1980-1983
              time frame to the discussion.
              >
              > In your post just before the one I am responding to, you stated that "[Darwin]
              Gross promoted 1000 Eckists to the 5th!" And then you followed it up with
              "Ooops! I think that was 500 (not 1000) to the 5th, and around 1983 just before
              being kicked out by Klemp!"
              >
              > I joined Eckanakar around 1979 so I got in on the last few years of Darwin
              Gross' time as the LEM. I believe it was around 1980/1981 that a member of
              Eckankar, B.S., told me that he was promoted directly from 3rd initiate to 5th
              initiate. In other words, he skipped his 4th initiation. This may have occurred
              later, in the 1983 time frame, I really can't be certain, but this "3 to 5
              initiation" was definitely done by Darwin.
              >
              > Also, I heard about one other person who went from 3rd to 5th. The really
              interesting thing is that I believe that both of these people had been in
              Eckankar for less than 10 years. Eckankar started in 1965, so 15-18 years was
              the absolute maximum time the person who spoke to me was in Eckankar. Plus, he
              never spoke about Paul Twitchell, and I'm very certain he joined Eckankar after
              Twitchell's death, making his maximum time in Eckankar about 10-13 years since
              Darwin started in 1971. I honestly think that 7 to 8 years is a better estimate
              of the time he was a member of Eckankar. He was only about 25 to 30 years old.
              >
              > By the way, regarding the person, B.S., who personally told me about skipping
              his 4th initiation. I asked him how that happened. He gave me an explanation,
              but I don't remember what it was. I believe it had something to do with the fact
              that he progressed spiritually so fast, he didn't need to "pause" at the fourth.
              But he wasn't arrogant so he probably said something like "the ECK need to
              progress people really fast."
              >
              > It has been mentioned in other posts on this message board that things are a
              lot different now, with many members of Eckankar going almost 30 years without
              receiving their 5th initiation.
              >
              > Years later, I did hear from a higher HI that Darwin gave a lot of initiations
              out to people who didn't really deserve them. Of course, during the time when
              Darwin was the LEM, whatever he did or didn't do was 100% accepted by Eckankar's
              membership, but after he was kicked out, everything Darwin did or didn't do was
              automatically suspect if not completely wrong.
              >
              > Jonathan


            • prometheus_973
              Hello Ed and All, Now that my memory of this has been refreshed I do recall Klemp mentioning people in Africa being promoted rapidly due to the need for EK
              Message 6 of 17 , Feb 2, 2010
                Hello Ed and All,
                Now that my memory of this has been
                refreshed I do recall Klemp mentioning
                people in Africa being promoted rapidly
                due to the need for EK Leaders. I had
                no idea as to how it was being done
                and that initiations were being skipped!
                HK would (and still) always say how
                advanced and natural the Africans' beliefs
                were. But, from what I've heard, there's
                a lot of superstition, folk lore, and other
                beliefs mixed in with the EK teachings.

                Ed, can you share or elaborate on this?

                Apparently HK's policy of this skipping
                of initiations was a sin of omission on
                Klemp's part. He knew that other EKists
                wouldn't feel comfortable with this tactic.
                HK never shared these details with the
                membership. I guess that the general
                membership didn't need to know how
                he was conducting business since he
                doesn't have to report to anyone for his
                actions... like the Pope.

                It just goes to show that the EK Initiations
                can be manipulated for physical worldly
                gains... more sales leaders.

                It is hypocritical of Klemp to bring up
                the fact that Paul promoted people
                very rapidly to Higher Initiations due
                to need when Eckankar was in the
                early stages. Darwin did the same thing
                early on and was never criticized for it.
                When DG's and HK's conflict, in 1983,
                was coming to a head Darwin promoted
                500 EKists to the 5th initiation. The
                problem was really with Klemp's ego.
                Instead, Klemp made Darwin look like
                the bad guy on this, too, because of
                the other things that had taken place.

                However, as I said before, IF Darwin
                really was a Black Magician, as the nasty
                Klempster claimed, that would mean
                that those 500 EKists DG gave the 5th
                to had actually been initiated, unknowingly,
                into the Black Arts. Klemp claimed, at
                the time, that viewing Darwin's picture
                or reading his words could have psychic
                influence over ECKists. Where was Klemp's
                protection? This is why ECKists don't
                usually read outside (unapproved) books
                and info. Klemp has scared them from
                doing so. But, where's the "protection"
                from such things? Catch-22 again!

                Anyway, let's not forget Klemp promoting
                people in Europe rapidly as well. Plus,
                after the schism in 1983-1984 Klemp
                had gaps in EK leadership, due to H.I.s
                leaving to follow Darwin, and thus
                promoted his own group of H.I.s as fill-ins.
                Once again, the promotions (initiations)
                had nothing to do with Spiritual Growth.

                Yes, it's interesting to discuss these
                remembrances and piece together
                information about the EK Initiations.
                Klemp's cover-up and omissions on
                his own policy of skipping initiations
                is more proof that the initiations aren't
                what ECKists imagine them to be.
                The initiations are devalued when
                the truth about how and why they
                are manipulated becomes known.

                Of course, the true blue EKist will
                deny the truth. They need Eckankar
                (religion) and will rationalize. They
                turn a blind-eye to facts and to
                critical thinking. They want to and
                need to believe in Eckankar because
                they don't have a replacement belief.
                Also, Eckankar is convenient and like
                all religions it "answers" our questions
                with dogma that seems to make sense
                at times. And, the promises (imaginings)
                and dreams seem better than what other
                religions seem to teach and offer. But,
                that never ending "Service/Sales" crap
                is the real turnoff! Well actually, Klemp
                promoting his younger looking image
                in "Tips for ECK Study" and on "The
                Wisdom Notes" page is a real turn-off!
                Such vanity!

                Prometheus

                Ed Kusi wrote:

                Hi All,
                This 3-5th,and even 2-5th happened in
                Africa too. | personally know five HIs in
                one country who were jumped from 2nd
                and 3rd to the 5th Initiation. It happened
                in Darwin's time and the reasons given
                were as already mentioned in related posts.

                Pretujari

                prometheus wrote:

                Hello All,
                I just remembered something that
                I heard back in the 80s from a
                member of Klemp's EK Spiritual Council.
                This 8th said that Harold needed to
                make more H.I.s in Europe and that
                he was making exceptions out of
                necessity. And, HK had promoted
                one person (a man), in Eastern Europe,
                to the 9th. I never knew why this
                9th initiation thing was/is such a
                big secret. It's probably because
                HK doesn't want to build up any
                more expectations for those higher
                initiations anymore than he has
                already. That's why the "imagination"
                pacifier is pushed onto H.I.s.

                The only Catch to getting and keeping
                the 9th lies with that individual Not telling
                he/she is a 9th! However, this doesn't
                prevent Klemp from sharing this info
                with the membership. Twit more than
                likely started the "no tell" rule because
                he didn't want others to find out who
                he had promoted, behind the backs
                of his Spiritual Council, and be jealous.
                Gail was probably a 9th as is Joan!

                However, this "no tell" rule has been
                expanded. No ECKists are supposed
                to discuss (gossip about) the Ninth
                Initiation openly.This is one reason
                Klemp put this into the Masters 4 Discourse.
                He got the speculation about the 9th
                out of the way and at the same time
                prevented any discussion of the matter
                outside of The Master's 4 Satsang Class.
                No ECKists are to discuss their discourses
                outside of their Satsang Class! Plus,
                Klemp has eliminated any other discussion,
                second guessing, or questions and
                speculation by referring to such as "gossip."
                If any ECKist is reported for "gossiping"
                any future initiations will be put on
                hold. This is a fact that most long-time
                H.I.s are well aware of. This is just another
                fear tactic that Klemp uses to control his
                flock and to keep them on task and sell
                Eckankar! if Klemp had any true powers
                or divine insight he wouldn't need his
                spies, or the RESA police, or "stories"
                mailed to him for use in his talks, books,
                and EK publications.

                prometheus wrote:

                Hello Ingrid and All,
                Yes, I know Bettine Clemen (Ware) too.
                I didn't know that about ECKists getting
                several initiations in one day. Was that
                during Paul's reign, or Darwin's or both?
                I know that Klemp would never do that...
                he's too stingy! And, HK's RESA hierarchy
                can't deal with higher ranking H.I.s
                residing within their Satsangs. Although,
                Bob Lawton (Klemp's former body guard)
                is both an 8th and a RESA. That's the only
                exception, but it does set a precedent.

                IMO- The Glass Ceiling for 7ths is unjustified.
                Why isn't there a more proportionate number
                of 8ths to 7ths?

                And, since there ARE a few ECK 9th Initiates
                lurking around why wouldn't that initiation
                be the actual Glass Ceiling, thus, allowing
                at least 500 8th Initiates.

                Actually, why does Klemp have these Glass
                Ceilings? It's because he's a narcissist and
                doen't want to share. He's a two faced
                hypocrite! He talks about love and compassion,
                but Not forgiveness! Thus, he has never
                mentioned Darwin's (972nd LEM) death
                to the ECK Membership let alone say
                something nice about the former ECK
                Master. That was the "test" that Klemp
                failed. And when he fails a test like that
                it means that he, too, has fallen from Grace!
                His attachment to Power keeps him on the
                throne.

                Anyway, If Klemp wanted to he could have
                promoted two or three initiates to the 12th.
                Not all 12ths have to be LEMs and not all LEMs
                have to be Mahantas... right? Sure!

                And, to insure that these 12ths wouldn't
                threaten his reign HK could have made them
                all females. In ECKankar females can't become
                LEM/Mahantas due to law/science/ tradition
                or whatever. Klemp is just an old tired ass
                selfish, mean spirited and fearful fuddy duddy
                stuck in the past.

                Klemp's negative behaviour and lack of
                compassion towards Darwin, and especially
                his death, is proof that he is both a hypocrite
                and a fraud. But, this is human/KAL behaviour
                typical of all religions and their leaders.

                Unfortunately, ECKists (the most advanced
                Souls ever, LOL) have tunnel vision and blinders
                on. They can only focus upon that carrot (the
                promise of more initiations leading to God-
                Realization) as they trot along doing Service,
                Surrendering, HUing, spending money on EK
                materials and seminars, taking more training,
                following the Guidelines and acting "as if" the
                lies of PT and HK are the ultimate truth. Such
                is religious belief. It may feel good and give
                you some hope, peace of mind and security,
                but it's not Reality or Truth! It's just filler...
                like Klemp's simple-minded redundant books!

                In truth, all religions and their dogmas are
                "tests" for the more "advanced" Souls. When
                one is able to finally see the correlations and
                the lies and beyond the "group think" then
                one is able to see with more clarity and discard
                all religion. The veils of illusion slowly disappear
                until one can commune privately, one-to-one,
                with Divine Spirit.

                Soul doesn't need a LEM or Mahanta or
                a Master or a priest, or a Pope to intervene
                or guide them on the Outer or Inner Planes.
                Of course, all religions (including Eckankar)
                cannot tolerate such statements. This is
                heresy! People are executed, even today,
                by religionists who claim to love God.
                But, why does God need to be protected?

                Thus, those religionists who attack us,
                and the Truth, are ignorant, fearful,
                weak-minded followers, and are immature
                Souls.

                Prometheus

                ctecvie wrote:
                Hi Jonathan and all,

                my husband knew Bettine Clemen personally.
                She once told him that either she or some people
                she knew (I'm not sure) got the 3rd, 4th and 5th
                initiations in one day - one or two in the morning
                and the last one(s) in the afternoon!

                At the time they needed a lot of higher initiates
                as eckankar was still young. Now there are so
                many HIs that they had to introduce a glass ceiling -
                I guess that's why initiations are slowed down
                so much!

                It's all about administration and money, and power
                of course ... :-))

                Ingrid

                jonathanjohns wrote:
                >
                > Prometheus,
                >
                > I'm going to add a few "facts" from my personal experience in the 1980-1983
                time frame to the discussion.
                >
                > In your post just before the one I am responding to, you stated that "[Darwin]
                Gross promoted 1000 Eckists to the 5th!" And then you followed it up with
                "Ooops! I think that was 500 (not 1000) to the 5th, and around 1983 just before
                being kicked out by Klemp!"
                >
                > I joined Eckanakar around 1979 so I got in on the last few years of Darwin
                Gross' time as the LEM. I believe it was around 1980/1981 that a member of
                Eckankar, B.S., told me that he was promoted directly from 3rd initiate to 5th
                initiate. In other words, he skipped his 4th initiation. This may have occurred
                later, in the 1983 time frame, I really can't be certain, but this "3 to 5
                initiation" was definitely done by Darwin.
                >
                > Also, I heard about one other person who went from 3rd to 5th. The really
                interesting thing is that I believe that both of these people had been in
                Eckankar for less than 10 years. Eckankar started in 1965, so 15-18 years was
                the absolute maximum time the person who spoke to me was in Eckankar. Plus, he
                never spoke about Paul Twitchell, and I'm very certain he joined Eckankar after
                Twitchell's death, making his maximum time in Eckankar about 10-13 years since
                Darwin started in 1971. I honestly think that 7 to 8 years is a better estimate
                of the time he was a member of Eckankar. He was only about 25 to 30 years old.
                >
                > By the way, regarding the person, B.S., who personally told me about skipping
                his 4th initiation. I asked him how that happened. He gave me an explanation,
                but I don't remember what it was. I believe it had something to do with the fact
                that he progressed spiritually so fast, he didn't need to "pause" at the fourth.
                But he wasn't arrogant so he probably said something like "the ECK need to
                progress people really fast."
                >
                > It has been mentioned in other posts on this message board that things are a
                lot different now, with many members of Eckankar going almost 30 years without
                receiving their 5th initiation.
                >
                > Years later, I did hear from a higher HI that Darwin gave a lot of initiations
                out to people who didn't really deserve them. Of course, during the time when
                Darwin was the LEM, whatever he did or didn't do was 100% accepted by Eckankar's
                membership, but after he was kicked out, everything Darwin did or didn't do was
                automatically suspect if not completely wrong.
                >
                > Jonathan
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