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3rd initiation to 5th initiation (not me) in 1980-1983 time frame

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  • jonathanjohns96
    Prometheus, I m going to add a few facts from my personal experience in the 1980-1983 time frame to the discussion. In your post just before the one I am
    Message 1 of 17 , Jan 31, 2010
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      Prometheus,

      I'm going to add a few "facts" from my personal experience in the 1980-1983 time frame to the discussion.

      In your post just before the one I am responding to, you stated that "[Darwin] Gross promoted 1000 Eckists to the 5th!" And then you followed it up with "Ooops! I think that was 500 (not 1000) to the 5th, and around 1983 just before being kicked out by Klemp!"

      I joined Eckanakar around 1979 so I got in on the last few years of Darwin Gross' time as the LEM. I believe it was around 1980/1981 that a member of Eckankar, B.S., told me that he was promoted directly from 3rd initiate to 5th initiate. In other words, he skipped his 4th initiation. This may have occurred later, in the 1983 time frame, I really can't be certain, but this "3 to 5 initiation" was definitely done by Darwin.

      Also, I heard about one other person who went from 3rd to 5th. The really interesting thing is that I believe that both of these people had been in Eckankar for less than 10 years. Eckankar started in 1965, so 15-18 years was the absolute maximum time the person who spoke to me was in Eckankar. Plus, he never spoke about Paul Twitchell, and I'm very certain he joined Eckankar after Twitchell's death, making his maximum time in Eckankar about 10-13 years since Darwin started in 1971. I honestly think that 7 to 8 years is a better estimate of the time he was a member of Eckankar. He was only about 25 to 30 years old.

      By the way, regarding the person, B.S., who personally told me about skipping his 4th initiation. I asked him how that happened. He gave me an explanation, but I don't remember what it was. I believe it had something to do with the fact that he progressed spiritually so fast, he didn't need to "pause" at the fourth. But he wasn't arrogant so he probably said something like "the ECK need to progress people really fast."

      It has been mentioned in other posts on this message board that things are a lot different now, with many members of Eckankar going almost 30 years without receiving their 5th initiation.

      Years later, I did hear from a higher HI that Darwin gave a lot of initiations out to people who didn't really deserve them. Of course, during the time when Darwin was the LEM, whatever he did or didn't do was 100% accepted by Eckankar's membership, but after he was kicked out, everything Darwin did or didn't do was automatically suspect if not completely wrong.

      Jonathan
    • prometheus_973
      Hello Jonathan, Klemp never did explain when Darwin fell from Grace. Was it prior to Oct. 22, 1981? If so when? It was Klemp s idea to meet in the Sound
      Message 2 of 17 , Jan 31, 2010
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        Hello Jonathan,
        Klemp never did explain "when" Darwin
        fell from Grace. Was it prior to Oct. 22,
        1981? If so when? It was Klemp's idea
        to meet in the Sound Proof Dark Room
        (Golden-Tongued Wisdom, no ECK!) at
        the ESC to discuss the transition and being
        made the LEM.

        Klemp mentioned, after the fact, when
        he booted Darwin that DG had promoted
        500 to the 5th initiation before their time.
        Actually, if Darwin really was a Black Magician,
        as HK had claimed when DG promoted these
        people, that would indicate that these chelas
        had been initiated into the Black Arts versus
        Eckankar! Nobody ever viewed this or spoke
        of it from that perspective!

        I knew a person who got the 4th and
        then a few months later got the 5th from
        DG. Years later Klemp made this person
        a RESA. However, I had heard that people
        had skipped initiations and this was years
        prior to Darwin's fall. One person who posted
        here on ESA recently, Colleen Russell, made
        it to the 7th in 10 years or less. For some
        reason Klemp sees those promotions as
        necessary and okay but not Darwin's 1983
        promotions. Look at the promotions that
        Klemp got from Darwin! HK's selfish and
        doesn't want anyone else near his rank.

        I knew of one Eckist who got on the wrong
        side of his Klemp-Kal like RESA and remained
        a 4th for 25 years! Currently there are around
        5,000 7th initiates who have been locked into
        that initiation for 20-25 years! Why? Because
        Klemp is mean-spirited and doesn't want to
        share the "wealth."

        Over the years Klemp has made it more
        difficult for H.I.s to advance in initiation
        rank due to the hoops he has them jumping
        through. It's like a circus and he's the ring-
        master! The training requirements, as well as,
        Vahana/Service requirements and holding
        local positions to be noticed makes it difficult
        to advance when one has to play KAL-like
        games and "act as if" in order to get that
        outer pink slip. One cannot receive promotions
        (initiations) by being an ECK Monk. Klemp
        needs his servants/promoters/salespeople.
        There is no room for the purely spiritual seeker!

        Prometheus



        jonathanjohns wrote:
        >
        > Prometheus,
        >
        > I'm going to add a few "facts" from my
        personal experience in the 1980-1983
        time frame to the discussion.
        >
        > In your post just before the one I am
        responding to, you stated that "[Darwin]
        Gross promoted 1000 Eckists to the 5th!"
        And then you followed it up with "Ooops!
        I think that was 500 (not 1000) to the 5th,
        and around 1983 just before being kicked
        out by Klemp!"
        >
        > I joined Eckanakar around 1979 so
        I got in on the last few years of Darwin
        Gross' time as the LEM. I believe it was
        around 1980/1981 that a member of
        Eckankar, B.S., told me that he was
        promoted directly from 3rd initiate to
        5th initiate. In other words, he skipped
        his 4th initiation. This may have occurred
        later, in the 1983 time frame, I really can't
        be certain, but this "3 to 5 initiation" was
        definitely done by Darwin.
        >
        > Also, I heard about one other person
        who went from 3rd to 5th. The really
        interesting thing is that I believe that
        both of these people had been in Eckankar
        for less than 10 years. Eckankar started
        in 1965, so 15-18 years was the absolute
        maximum time the person who spoke to
        me was in Eckankar. Plus, he never spoke
        about Paul Twitchell, and I'm very certain
        he joined Eckankar after Twitchell's death,
        making his maximum time in Eckankar about
        10-13 years since Darwin started in 1971.
        I honestly think that 7 to 8 years is a better
        estimate of the time he was a member of
        Eckankar. He was only about 25 to 30 years
        old.
        >
        > By the way, regarding the person, B.S.,
        who personally told me about skipping his
        4th initiation. I asked him how that happened.
        He gave me an explanation, but I don't remember
        what it was. I believe it had something to do
        with the fact that he progressed spiritually so
        fast, he didn't need to "pause" at the fourth.
        But he wasn't arrogant so he probably said
        something like "the ECK need to progress
        people really fast."
        >
        > It has been mentioned in other posts
        on this message board that things are
        a lot different now, with many members
        of Eckankar going almost 30 years without
        receiving their 5th initiation.
        >
        > Years later, I did hear from a higher HI
        that Darwin gave a lot of initiations out to
        people who didn't really deserve them. Of
        course, during the time when Darwin was
        the LEM, whatever he did or didn't do was
        100% accepted by Eckankar's membership,
        but after he was kicked out, everything Darwin
        did or didn't do was automatically suspect
        if not completely wrong.
        >
        > Jonathan

        Prometheus wrote:

        Basically, 1-9 are inner and outer,
        10-11 are inner, 12 is inner and outer,
        and 13-14 are inner.

        [1-9]
        In The Masters 4 Discourse, Lesson 2
        is the following:

        "Third, the final part of the Ninth
        Initiation occurs in the physical
        world."

        [12th]
        In Klemp's 1998 ECK Lexicon is this
        on page 226:

        "Voice of Akivasha. The oracle, until
        the first of this century, at a craggy,
        unexplored site called the Oracle of
        Tirmer in the Valley of Shangta in
        northern Tibet. It is here that the
        Rod of ECK Power is passed from
        the departing LEM to his successor
        on October 22 [Twitchell's Birthday],
        at midnight; sometimes called the
        Voice, or Oracle, of Tirmer."

        It should be noted that this is a
        physical, earthly, and "outer" location,
        although, it might be claimed that
        one travels there in the Astral Body
        which resembles one's physical body.
        This is why there are paintings and
        drawings of these people. Any body
        higher than the Astral would not
        otherwise have the same identifiable
        (physical) characteristics.

        It should be noted that in Klemp's
        1987 book, "Soul Travelers of the
        Far Country" on pages 186-187 that
        Klemp states:

        "The Ninth Initiation came on July 22,
        1981. Initiations in ECK beyond the
        Eighth are given ONLY on the inner
        planes."

        Of course, Darwin had to confirm
        HK's 9th on the outer. It seems that
        the 10th and 11th are minor initiations
        since Klemp achieved these between
        July 22, 1981 and October 22, 1981!


        Of course Klemp had to backtrack
        for the Masters 4 Discourse because
        how can one anoint card carrying
        9ths without an "outer" confirmation
        "final" stage?

        Else wise, everyone would be
        running around claiming to be
        a 9ths. It's bad enough that 7ths
        are claiming to be 8ths (on the inner),
        or that 8ths are claiming to be 9ths
        on the inner or that some Eckists
        skip initiations and, thus, there
        are 5ths claiming to be 8ths
        (on the inner).
      • jonathanjohns96
        Prometheus, Thanks for your reply. You said I had heard that people had skipped initiations and this was years prior to Darwin s fall. I thought it was about
        Message 3 of 17 , Jan 31, 2010
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          Prometheus,

          Thanks for your reply. You said "I had heard that people had skipped initiations and this was years prior to Darwin's fall." I thought it was about 1980-1981 when this person told me this, but he might have received his 5th years before. So thank you for your verification that you heard about it years before Darwin's fall. He was a very honest person, I don't doubt that he skipped his 4th, just as he told me that he did. After all, if he was going to lie, he probably would have said that it didn't happen in order to cover up the fact. I wanted to mention it just as a way of attempting to preserve the "true history" of Eckankar. I'm not sure why I care about doing that (for them) but I do. I guess I don't want to see them put out their fabricated history of Eckankar where they say "rumors that people in the past skipped imitations are untrue." I could just see that happening. But I still don't know why I care. I guess I believe the world deserves an honest history of Eckankar. And I certainly don't trust them to do it.

          You also said "One person who posted here on ESA recently, Colleen Russell, made it to the 7th in 10 years or less." That is truly amazing, isn't it? It makes my recollection (and interpretation) of the Eckist I spoke to, B.S., making it to the 5th in 7 to 8 years by 1981 all the more believable. But he was definitely doing all the "right stuff," I feel because he really believed in it. A few years later he went to work for the International office.

          You also said "I knew of one Eckist who got on the wrong side of his Klemp-Kal like RESA and remained a 4th for 25 years!" My experience was that I got my 5th on the "29 year mark." But I did take a five year sabbatical. And I wasn't doing any of the right things. I didn't give talks. I put up some posters with some other people one time. I never volunteered at the Eck center. I did volunteer at an Eckankar booth at a health fair one time. I did attend the Worship Services, at times fairly regularly, but I guess that didn't count for very much.

          Also, I thought the initiation were based on my spiritual progress. I thought Klemp was hard at work on the inner, keeping track of me, much like Santa Clause does. So I had no clue that your next initiation was based on doing volunteer work to promote Eckankar.

          So it truly is amazing to see the differences between now and back in the days when Darwin was the LEM. I think you have already mentioned this many times, but I think that a lot of it has to do with the fact that Klemp has become more and more paranoid through the years. And so he demands more and more and more through the years before he even trusts any members. I must admit that when you were discussing the difference between Darwin and today's Klemp, I didn't realize how severe the difference was.

          I'd like to change the subject a little bit. In my last year in Eckankar, we had a "guest" at a worship service, which is something that almost never happened. He was very quiet, middle-aged in his 50s I suppose. I thought he wasn't a member of Eckankar. A week or two later I learned that he was a member, had been for about 20 to 30 years (I can't remember the exact number), but he just never attended official Eckankar activities. I was really surprised. The higher HI who gave me the information about him said that there are a lot of members in the local area like this. By the way, he did live about an hour drive from the center.

          So, Prometheus, I would like to ask you two questions since you were active in the functioning of your Eck center. Were you aware of people like this who had zero involvement in the outer functions of Eckankar? And do you think that these people were commonly passed over for initiations?

          Jonathan
        • prometheus_973
          Hi Jonathan, Okay, I ll give your questions a shot from my perspectives as a former H.I. and EK Leader. Yes, we had people like this turn up every now and then
          Message 4 of 17 , Jan 31, 2010
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            Hi Jonathan,
            Okay, I'll give your questions a shot from my
            perspectives as a former H.I. and EK Leader.
            Yes, we had people like this turn up every now
            and then over the decades. Some had years on
            me and yet I'd never seen them before. Others
            were from other parts of the state or had left
            Eckankar and then returned. Some had been
            on a rest period, or were on a rest period and
            didn't know anything "current." Anyone not
            wanting to stick out like a sore thumb just needs
            to quote the Shariyat, or talk about the Mahanta's
            love, or about Surrender and they should fit-in
            as though they had never been gone.

            I'll respond to the questions below--


            Jonathan wrote:
            I'd like to change the subject a little bit. In my last year in Eckankar, we had
            a "guest" at a worship service, which is something that almost never happened.
            He was very quiet, middle-aged in his 50s I suppose. I thought he wasn't a
            member of Eckankar. A week or two later I learned that he was a member, had been
            for about 20 to 30 years (I can't remember the exact number), but he just never
            attended official Eckankar activities. I was really surprised. The higher HI who
            gave me the information about him said that there are a lot of members in the
            local area like this. By the way, he did live about an hour drive from the
            center.

            So, Prometheus, I would like to ask you two
            questions since you were active in the functioning
            of your Eck center.

            1.) Were you aware of people like this who had
            zero involvement in the outer functions of Eckankar?


            P- Yes, at times there I had never met some
            of those on the ESC's membership list. Others
            I knew of. Some only came to the ECK Worship
            Service (EWS) or to Satsang. Sometimes I would
            try to get them to volunteer by finding out what
            they might like to do and then I would have that
            specific coordinator speak to them. It was very
            important to welcome and befriend them and
            make them feel at home and want to join in and
            socialize and to give them a volunteer position
            so that they would feel needed. I then tried to
            get them into Satsang Classes. Of course
            that was another problem because I had to have
            a Satsang Arahata to teach the class. Some EKists
            took the Arahata Training, but still hadn't taught
            a class after two years which, according to the Guidelines,
            meant that they needed to be retrained. Retraining
            was a problem because there needed to be trainers
            available to do the retraining. Everything in Eckankar
            takes forever to accomplish. And, in the end after
            everything is said and done, only a handful of people
            ever join and even fewer renew after the first year.
            Word of mouth or Klemp getting on the radio or
            TV would be best, but Klemp is lazy and a faker
            that can't handle the heat. His main focus is to
            keep ECKists busy and involved and to sell them
            more EK materials ($)... to distribute to the trash
            cans.

            2.) And do you think that these people were commonly
            passed over for initiations?

            P- Well, that depends on who you know as well.
            I had a 4th who finally became a volunteer after
            many years of membership. I gave him an important
            coordinator position. However, he quit the position
            after six months! One promises that they will stay
            in the EK position for one year (ending on Oct.22).
            Apparently he had some pull with some friends of
            the RESA and I was never called about his initiation.
            He soon got his 5th! I would never have approved
            him. His knowledge of the EK teachings were poor
            and he was a poor example for an EK leader. He
            did make an attempt to turn over a "new leaf" but
            it was too little too late. To this day he's still a
            poor excuse for a H.I., but that's good!

            Other people who don't volunteer or attend
            the appropriate training classes for advancement
            will be passed over. Plus, one has to have an
            "active" membership. If you're on a rest period
            then your time-in-grade for advancement is
            frozen. Also, one has to watch out what they
            say, where and when, and to whom they say it.
            Sometimes honestly is not the best policy! If
            you get put on the RESA's Black List and are
            passed over you can be in the toilet for "at least"
            three years or until you prove yourself to the
            Next RESA.

            I've seen it happen where the RESA stepped
            down and people who never had a chance of
            getting promoted finally got promoted! I've
            also seen people move to other states and get
            promoted immediately under a different (nicer)
            RESA. It happens all the time. Attend enough
            seminars and talk to enough EK Leaders and
            you can hear all sorts of "stories" that Klemp
            doesn't want to hear or know about. So much
            for the "All Knowing Mahanta!"

            Yes, I remember back in the mid 80's that
            there were Circles of Initiation Workshops
            and that some H.I.s had to pass at being
            facilitators on certain ones (third & fourth)
            because they either skipped that initiation
            or had been in it for only a few months before
            getting promoted. How can one talk about
            the trials and tribulations of the 4th when
            you skipped it or had been in it for a few
            months?

            Prometheus





            jonathan wrote:
            Prometheus,

            Thanks for your reply. You said "I had heard that people had skipped initiations
            and this was years prior to Darwin's fall." I thought it was about 1980-1981
            when this person told me this, but he might have received his 5th years before.
            So thank you for your verification that you heard about it years before Darwin's
            fall. He was a very honest person, I don't doubt that he skipped his 4th, just
            as he told me that he did. After all, if he was going to lie, he probably would
            have said that it didn't happen in order to cover up the fact. I wanted to
            mention it just as a way of attempting to preserve the "true history" of
            Eckankar. I'm not sure why I care about doing that (for them) but I do. I guess
            I don't want to see them put out their fabricated history of Eckankar where they
            say "rumors that people in the past skipped imitations are untrue." I could just
            see that happening. But I still don't know why I care. I guess I believe the
            world deserves an honest history of Eckankar. And I certainly don't trust them
            to do it.

            You also said "One person who posted here on ESA recently, Colleen Russell, made
            it to the 7th in 10 years or less." That is truly amazing, isn't it? It makes my
            recollection (and interpretation) of the Eckist I spoke to, B.S., making it to
            the 5th in 7 to 8 years by 1981 all the more believable. But he was definitely
            doing all the "right stuff," I feel because he really believed in it. A few
            years later he went to work for the International office.

            You also said "I knew of one Eckist who got on the wrong side of his Klemp-Kal
            like RESA and remained a 4th for 25 years!" My experience was that I got my 5th
            on the "29 year mark." But I did take a five year sabbatical. And I wasn't doing
            any of the right things. I didn't give talks. I put up some posters with some
            other people one time. I never volunteered at the Eck center. I did volunteer at
            an Eckankar booth at a health fair one time. I did attend the Worship Services,
            at times fairly regularly, but I guess that didn't count for very much.

            Also, I thought the initiation were based on my spiritual progress. I thought
            Klemp was hard at work on the inner, keeping track of me, much like Santa Clause
            does. So I had no clue that your next initiation was based on doing volunteer
            work to promote Eckankar.

            So it truly is amazing to see the differences between now and back in the days
            when Darwin was the LEM. I think you have already mentioned this many times, but
            I think that a lot of it has to do with the fact that Klemp has become more and
            more paranoid through the years. And so he demands more and more and more
            through the years before he even trusts any members. I must admit that when you
            were discussing the difference between Darwin and today's Klemp, I didn't
            realize how severe the difference was.

            I'd like to change the subject a little bit. In my last year in Eckankar, we had
            a "guest" at a worship service, which is something that almost never happened.
            He was very quiet, middle-aged in his 50s I suppose. I thought he wasn't a
            member of Eckankar. A week or two later I learned that he was a member, had been
            for about 20 to 30 years (I can't remember the exact number), but he just never
            attended official Eckankar activities. I was really surprised. The higher HI who
            gave me the information about him said that there are a lot of members in the
            local area like this. By the way, he did live about an hour drive from the
            center.

            So, Prometheus, I would like to ask you two questions since you were active in
            the functioning of your Eck center. Were you aware of people like this who had
            zero involvement in the outer functions of Eckankar? And do you think that these
            people were commonly passed over for initiations?

            Jonathan
          • ctecvie
            Hi Jonathan and all, my husband knew Bettine Clemen personally. She once told him that either she or some people she knew (I m not sure) got the 3rd, 4th and
            Message 5 of 17 , Feb 1, 2010
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              Hi Jonathan and all,

              my husband knew Bettine Clemen personally. She once told him that either she or some people she knew (I'm not sure) got the 3rd, 4th and 5th initiations in one day - one or two in the morning and the last one(s) in the afternoon!

              At the time they needed a lot of higher initiates as eckankar was still young. Now there are so many HIs that they had to introduce a glass ceiling - I guess that's why initiations are slowed down so much!

              It's all about administration and money, and power of course ... :-))
              Ingrid

              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96" <jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:
              >
              > Prometheus,
              >
              > I'm going to add a few "facts" from my personal experience in the 1980-1983 time frame to the discussion.
              >
              > In your post just before the one I am responding to, you stated that "[Darwin] Gross promoted 1000 Eckists to the 5th!" And then you followed it up with "Ooops! I think that was 500 (not 1000) to the 5th, and around 1983 just before being kicked out by Klemp!"
              >
              > I joined Eckanakar around 1979 so I got in on the last few years of Darwin Gross' time as the LEM. I believe it was around 1980/1981 that a member of Eckankar, B.S., told me that he was promoted directly from 3rd initiate to 5th initiate. In other words, he skipped his 4th initiation. This may have occurred later, in the 1983 time frame, I really can't be certain, but this "3 to 5 initiation" was definitely done by Darwin.
              >
              > Also, I heard about one other person who went from 3rd to 5th. The really interesting thing is that I believe that both of these people had been in Eckankar for less than 10 years. Eckankar started in 1965, so 15-18 years was the absolute maximum time the person who spoke to me was in Eckankar. Plus, he never spoke about Paul Twitchell, and I'm very certain he joined Eckankar after Twitchell's death, making his maximum time in Eckankar about 10-13 years since Darwin started in 1971. I honestly think that 7 to 8 years is a better estimate of the time he was a member of Eckankar. He was only about 25 to 30 years old.
              >
              > By the way, regarding the person, B.S., who personally told me about skipping his 4th initiation. I asked him how that happened. He gave me an explanation, but I don't remember what it was. I believe it had something to do with the fact that he progressed spiritually so fast, he didn't need to "pause" at the fourth. But he wasn't arrogant so he probably said something like "the ECK need to progress people really fast."
              >
              > It has been mentioned in other posts on this message board that things are a lot different now, with many members of Eckankar going almost 30 years without receiving their 5th initiation.
              >
              > Years later, I did hear from a higher HI that Darwin gave a lot of initiations out to people who didn't really deserve them. Of course, during the time when Darwin was the LEM, whatever he did or didn't do was 100% accepted by Eckankar's membership, but after he was kicked out, everything Darwin did or didn't do was automatically suspect if not completely wrong.
              >
              > Jonathan
              >
            • prometheus_973
              Hello Ingrid and All, Yes, I know Bettine Clemen (Ware) too. I didn t know that about ECKists getting several initiations in one day. Was that during Paul s
              Message 6 of 17 , Feb 1, 2010
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                Hello Ingrid and All,
                Yes, I know Bettine Clemen (Ware) too.
                I didn't know that about ECKists getting
                several initiations in one day. Was that
                during Paul's reign, or Darwin's or both?
                I know that Klemp would never do that...
                he's too stingy! And, HK's RESA hierarchy
                can't deal with higher ranking H.I.s
                residing within their Satsangs. Although,
                Bob Lawton (Klemp's former body guard)
                is both an 8th and a RESA. That's the only
                exception, but it does set a precedent.

                IMO- The Glass Ceiling for 7ths is unjustified.
                Why isn't there a more proportionate number
                of 8ths to 7ths?

                And, since there ARE a few ECK 9th Initiates
                lurking around why wouldn't that initiation
                be the actual Glass Ceiling, thus, allowing
                at least 500 8th Initiates.

                Actually, why does Klemp have these Glass
                Ceilings? It's because he's a narcissist and
                doen't want to share. He's a two faced
                hypocrite! He talks about love and compassion,
                but Not forgiveness! Thus, he has never
                mentioned Darwin's (972nd LEM) death
                to the ECK Membership let alone say
                something nice about the former ECK
                Master. That was the "test" that Klemp
                failed. And when he fails a test like that
                it means that he, too, has fallen from Grace!
                His attachment to Power keeps him on the
                throne.

                Anyway, If Klemp wanted to he could have
                promoted two or three initiates to the 12th.
                Not all 12ths have to be LEMs and not all LEMs
                have to be Mahantas... right? Sure!

                And, to insure that these 12ths wouldn't
                threaten his reign HK could have made them
                all females. In ECKankar females can't become
                LEM/Mahantas due to law/science/tradition
                or whatever. Klemp is just an old tired ass
                selfish, mean spirited and fearful fuddy duddy
                stuck in the past.

                Klemp's negative behaviour and lack of
                compassion towards Darwin, and especially
                his death, is proof that he is both a hypocrite
                and a fraud. But, this is human/KAL behaviour
                typical of all religions and their leaders.

                Unfortunately, ECKists (the most advanced
                Souls ever, LOL) have tunnel vision and blinders
                on. They can only focus upon that carrot (the
                promise of more initiations leading to God-
                Realization) as they trot along doing Service,
                Surrendering, HUing, spending money on EK
                materials and seminars, taking more training,
                following the Guidelines and acting "as if" the
                lies of PT and HK are the ultimate truth. Such
                is religious belief. It may feel good and give
                you some hope, peace of mind and security,
                but it's not Reality or Truth! It's just filler...
                like Klemp's simple-minded redundant books!

                In truth, all religions and their dogmas are
                "tests" for the more "advanced" Souls. When
                one is able to finally see the correlations and
                the lies and beyond the "group think" then
                one is able to see with more clarity and discard
                all religion. The veils of illusion slowly disappear
                until one can commune privately, one-to-one,
                with Divine Spirit.

                Soul doesn't need a LEM or Mahanta or
                a Master or a priest, or a Pope to intervene
                or guide them on the Outer or Inner Planes.
                Of course, all religions (including Eckankar)
                cannot tolerate such statements. This is
                heresy! People are executed, even today,
                by religionists who claim to love God.
                But, why does God need to be protected?

                Thus, those religionists who attack us,
                and the Truth, are ignorant, fearful,
                weak-minded followers, and are immature
                Souls.

                Prometheus


                ctecvie wrote:
                Hi Jonathan and all,

                my husband knew Bettine Clemen personally.
                She once told him that either she or some people
                she knew (I'm not sure) got the 3rd, 4th and 5th
                initiations in one day - one or two in the morning
                and the last one(s) in the afternoon!

                At the time they needed a lot of higher initiates
                as eckankar was still young. Now there are so
                many HIs that they had to introduce a glass ceiling -
                I guess that's why initiations are slowed down
                so much!

                It's all about administration and money, and power
                of course ... :-))

                Ingrid

                jonathanjohns wrote:
                >
                > Prometheus,
                >
                > I'm going to add a few "facts" from my personal experience in the 1980-1983
                time frame to the discussion.
                >
                > In your post just before the one I am responding to, you stated that "[Darwin]
                Gross promoted 1000 Eckists to the 5th!" And then you followed it up with
                "Ooops! I think that was 500 (not 1000) to the 5th, and around 1983 just before
                being kicked out by Klemp!"
                >
                > I joined Eckanakar around 1979 so I got in on the last few years of Darwin
                Gross' time as the LEM. I believe it was around 1980/1981 that a member of
                Eckankar, B.S., told me that he was promoted directly from 3rd initiate to 5th
                initiate. In other words, he skipped his 4th initiation. This may have occurred
                later, in the 1983 time frame, I really can't be certain, but this "3 to 5
                initiation" was definitely done by Darwin.
                >
                > Also, I heard about one other person who went from 3rd to 5th. The really
                interesting thing is that I believe that both of these people had been in
                Eckankar for less than 10 years. Eckankar started in 1965, so 15-18 years was
                the absolute maximum time the person who spoke to me was in Eckankar. Plus, he
                never spoke about Paul Twitchell, and I'm very certain he joined Eckankar after
                Twitchell's death, making his maximum time in Eckankar about 10-13 years since
                Darwin started in 1971. I honestly think that 7 to 8 years is a better estimate
                of the time he was a member of Eckankar. He was only about 25 to 30 years old.
                >
                > By the way, regarding the person, B.S., who personally told me about skipping
                his 4th initiation. I asked him how that happened. He gave me an explanation,
                but I don't remember what it was. I believe it had something to do with the fact
                that he progressed spiritually so fast, he didn't need to "pause" at the fourth.
                But he wasn't arrogant so he probably said something like "the ECK need to
                progress people really fast."
                >
                > It has been mentioned in other posts on this message board that things are a
                lot different now, with many members of Eckankar going almost 30 years without
                receiving their 5th initiation.
                >
                > Years later, I did hear from a higher HI that Darwin gave a lot of initiations
                out to people who didn't really deserve them. Of course, during the time when
                Darwin was the LEM, whatever he did or didn't do was 100% accepted by Eckankar's
                membership, but after he was kicked out, everything Darwin did or didn't do was
                automatically suspect if not completely wrong.
                >
                > Jonathan
                >
              • prometheus_973
                Hello All, I just remembered something that I heard back in the 80s from a member of Klemp s EK Spiritual Council. This 8th said that Harold needed to make
                Message 7 of 17 , Feb 1, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hello All,
                  I just remembered something that
                  I heard back in the 80s from a
                  member of Klemp's EK Spiritual Council.
                  This 8th said that Harold needed to
                  make more H.I.s in Europe and that
                  he was making exceptions out of
                  necessity. And, HK had promoted
                  one person (a man), in Eastern Europe,
                  to the 9th. I never knew why this
                  9th initiation thing was/is such a
                  big secret. It's probably because
                  HK doesn't want to build up any
                  more expectations for those higher
                  initiations anymore than he has
                  already. That's why the "imagination"
                  pacifier is pushed onto H.I.s.

                  The only Catch to getting and keeping
                  the 9th lies with that individual Not telling
                  he/she is a 9th! However, this doesn't
                  prevent Klemp from sharing this info
                  with the membership. Twit more than
                  likely started the "no tell" rule because
                  he didn't want others to find out who
                  he had promoted, behind the backs
                  of his Spiritual Council, and be jealous.
                  Gail was probably a 9th as is Joan!

                  However, this "no tell" rule has been
                  expanded. No ECKists are supposed
                  to discuss (gossip about) the Ninth
                  Initiation openly.This is one reason
                  Klemp put this into the Masters 4 Discourse.
                  He got the speculation about the 9th
                  out of the way and at the same time
                  prevented any discussion of the matter
                  outside of The Master's 4 Satsang Class.
                  No ECKists are to discuss their discourses
                  outside of their Satsang Class! Plus,
                  Klemp has eliminated any other discussion,
                  second guessing, or questions and
                  speculation by referring to such as "gossip."
                  If any ECKist is reported for "gossiping"
                  any future initiations will be put on
                  hold. This is a fact that most long-time
                  H.I.s are well aware of. This is just another
                  fear tactic that Klemp uses to control his
                  flock and to keep them on task and sell
                  Eckankar! if Klemp had any true powers
                  or divine insight he wouldn't need his
                  spies, or the RESA police, or "stories"
                  mailed to him for use in his talks, books,
                  and EK publications.


                  prometheus wrote:

                  Hello Ingrid and All,
                  Yes, I know Bettine Clemen (Ware) too.
                  I didn't know that about ECKists getting
                  several initiations in one day. Was that
                  during Paul's reign, or Darwin's or both?
                  I know that Klemp would never do that...
                  he's too stingy! And, HK's RESA hierarchy
                  can't deal with higher ranking H.I.s
                  residing within their Satsangs. Although,
                  Bob Lawton (Klemp's former body guard)
                  is both an 8th and a RESA. That's the only
                  exception, but it does set a precedent.

                  IMO- The Glass Ceiling for 7ths is unjustified.
                  Why isn't there a more proportionate number
                  of 8ths to 7ths?

                  And, since there ARE a few ECK 9th Initiates
                  lurking around why wouldn't that initiation
                  be the actual Glass Ceiling, thus, allowing
                  at least 500 8th Initiates.

                  Actually, why does Klemp have these Glass
                  Ceilings? It's because he's a narcissist and
                  doen't want to share. He's a two faced
                  hypocrite! He talks about love and compassion,
                  but Not forgiveness! Thus, he has never
                  mentioned Darwin's (972nd LEM) death
                  to the ECK Membership let alone say
                  something nice about the former ECK
                  Master. That was the "test" that Klemp
                  failed. And when he fails a test like that
                  it means that he, too, has fallen from Grace!
                  His attachment to Power keeps him on the
                  throne.

                  Anyway, If Klemp wanted to he could have
                  promoted two or three initiates to the 12th.
                  Not all 12ths have to be LEMs and not all LEMs
                  have to be Mahantas... right? Sure!

                  And, to insure that these 12ths wouldn't
                  threaten his reign HK could have made them
                  all females. In ECKankar females can't become
                  LEM/Mahantas due to law/science/tradition
                  or whatever. Klemp is just an old tired ass
                  selfish, mean spirited and fearful fuddy duddy
                  stuck in the past.

                  Klemp's negative behaviour and lack of
                  compassion towards Darwin, and especially
                  his death, is proof that he is both a hypocrite
                  and a fraud. But, this is human/KAL behaviour
                  typical of all religions and their leaders.

                  Unfortunately, ECKists (the most advanced
                  Souls ever, LOL) have tunnel vision and blinders
                  on. They can only focus upon that carrot (the
                  promise of more initiations leading to God-
                  Realization) as they trot along doing Service,
                  Surrendering, HUing, spending money on EK
                  materials and seminars, taking more training,
                  following the Guidelines and acting "as if" the
                  lies of PT and HK are the ultimate truth. Such
                  is religious belief. It may feel good and give
                  you some hope, peace of mind and security,
                  but it's not Reality or Truth! It's just filler...
                  like Klemp's simple-minded redundant books!

                  In truth, all religions and their dogmas are
                  "tests" for the more "advanced" Souls. When
                  one is able to finally see the correlations and
                  the lies and beyond the "group think" then
                  one is able to see with more clarity and discard
                  all religion. The veils of illusion slowly disappear
                  until one can commune privately, one-to-one,
                  with Divine Spirit.

                  Soul doesn't need a LEM or Mahanta or
                  a Master or a priest, or a Pope to intervene
                  or guide them on the Outer or Inner Planes.
                  Of course, all religions (including Eckankar)
                  cannot tolerate such statements. This is
                  heresy! People are executed, even today,
                  by religionists who claim to love God.
                  But, why does God need to be protected?

                  Thus, those religionists who attack us,
                  and the Truth, are ignorant, fearful,
                  weak-minded followers, and are immature
                  Souls.

                  Prometheus


                  ctecvie wrote:
                  Hi Jonathan and all,

                  my husband knew Bettine Clemen personally.
                  She once told him that either she or some people
                  she knew (I'm not sure) got the 3rd, 4th and 5th
                  initiations in one day - one or two in the morning
                  and the last one(s) in the afternoon!

                  At the time they needed a lot of higher initiates
                  as eckankar was still young. Now there are so
                  many HIs that they had to introduce a glass ceiling -
                  I guess that's why initiations are slowed down
                  so much!

                  It's all about administration and money, and power
                  of course ... :-))

                  Ingrid

                  jonathanjohns wrote:
                  >
                  > Prometheus,
                  >
                  > I'm going to add a few "facts" from my personal experience in the 1980-1983
                  time frame to the discussion.
                  >
                  > In your post just before the one I am responding to, you stated that "[Darwin]
                  Gross promoted 1000 Eckists to the 5th!" And then you followed it up with
                  "Ooops! I think that was 500 (not 1000) to the 5th, and around 1983 just before
                  being kicked out by Klemp!"
                  >
                  > I joined Eckanakar around 1979 so I got in on the last few years of Darwin
                  Gross' time as the LEM. I believe it was around 1980/1981 that a member of
                  Eckankar, B.S., told me that he was promoted directly from 3rd initiate to 5th
                  initiate. In other words, he skipped his 4th initiation. This may have occurred
                  later, in the 1983 time frame, I really can't be certain, but this "3 to 5
                  initiation" was definitely done by Darwin.
                  >
                  > Also, I heard about one other person who went from 3rd to 5th. The really
                  interesting thing is that I believe that both of these people had been in
                  Eckankar for less than 10 years. Eckankar started in 1965, so 15-18 years was
                  the absolute maximum time the person who spoke to me was in Eckankar. Plus, he
                  never spoke about Paul Twitchell, and I'm very certain he joined Eckankar after
                  Twitchell's death, making his maximum time in Eckankar about 10-13 years since
                  Darwin started in 1971. I honestly think that 7 to 8 years is a better estimate
                  of the time he was a member of Eckankar. He was only about 25 to 30 years old.
                  >
                  > By the way, regarding the person, B.S., who personally told me about skipping
                  his 4th initiation. I asked him how that happened. He gave me an explanation,
                  but I don't remember what it was. I believe it had something to do with the fact
                  that he progressed spiritually so fast, he didn't need to "pause" at the fourth.
                  But he wasn't arrogant so he probably said something like "the ECK need to
                  progress people really fast."
                  >
                  > It has been mentioned in other posts on this message board that things are a
                  lot different now, with many members of Eckankar going almost 30 years without
                  receiving their 5th initiation.
                  >
                  > Years later, I did hear from a higher HI that Darwin gave a lot of initiations
                  out to people who didn't really deserve them. Of course, during the time when
                  Darwin was the LEM, whatever he did or didn't do was 100% accepted by Eckankar's
                  membership, but after he was kicked out, everything Darwin did or didn't do was
                  automatically suspect if not completely wrong.
                  >
                  > Jonathan
                • Ed Kusi
                  Hi All, This 3-5th,and even 2-5th happened in Africa too. | personally know five HIs in one country who were jumped from 2nd and 3rd to the 5th Initiation. It
                  Message 8 of 17 , Feb 1, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi All,
                    This 3-5th,and even 2-5th happened in Africa too. | personally know five HIs in one country who were jumped from 2nd and 3rd to the 5th Initiation. It happened in Darwin's time and the reasons given were as already mentioned in related posts.

                    Pretujari

                    --- On Mon, 2/1/10, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                    From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: 3rd initiation to 5th initiation (not me) in 1980-1983 time frame
                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Monday, February 1, 2010, 2:03 PM

                     

                    Hello All,
                    I just remembered something that
                    I heard back in the 80s from a
                    member of Klemp's EK Spiritual Council.
                    This 8th said that Harold needed to
                    make more H.I.s in Europe and that
                    he was making exceptions out of
                    necessity. And, HK had promoted
                    one person (a man), in Eastern Europe,
                    to the 9th. I never knew why this
                    9th initiation thing was/is such a
                    big secret. It's probably because
                    HK doesn't want to build up any
                    more expectations for those higher
                    initiations anymore than he has
                    already. That's why the "imagination"
                    pacifier is pushed onto H.I.s.

                    The only Catch to getting and keeping
                    the 9th lies with that individual Not telling
                    he/she is a 9th! However, this doesn't
                    prevent Klemp from sharing this info
                    with the membership. Twit more than
                    likely started the "no tell" rule because
                    he didn't want others to find out who
                    he had promoted, behind the backs
                    of his Spiritual Council, and be jealous.
                    Gail was probably a 9th as is Joan!

                    However, this "no tell" rule has been
                    expanded. No ECKists are supposed
                    to discuss (gossip about) the Ninth
                    Initiation openly.This is one reason
                    Klemp put this into the Masters 4 Discourse.
                    He got the speculation about the 9th
                    out of the way and at the same time
                    prevented any discussion of the matter
                    outside of The Master's 4 Satsang Class.
                    No ECKists are to discuss their discourses
                    outside of their Satsang Class! Plus,
                    Klemp has eliminated any other discussion,
                    second guessing, or questions and
                    speculation by referring to such as "gossip."
                    If any ECKist is reported for "gossiping"
                    any future initiations will be put on
                    hold. This is a fact that most long-time
                    H.I.s are well aware of. This is just another
                    fear tactic that Klemp uses to control his
                    flock and to keep them on task and sell
                    Eckankar! if Klemp had any true powers
                    or divine insight he wouldn't need his
                    spies, or the RESA police, or "stories"
                    mailed to him for use in his talks, books,
                    and EK publications.

                    prometheus wrote:

                    Hello Ingrid and All,
                    Yes, I know Bettine Clemen (Ware) too.
                    I didn't know that about ECKists getting
                    several initiations in one day. Was that
                    during Paul's reign, or Darwin's or both?
                    I know that Klemp would never do that...
                    he's too stingy! And, HK's RESA hierarchy
                    can't deal with higher ranking H.I.s
                    residing within their Satsangs. Although,
                    Bob Lawton (Klemp's former body guard)
                    is both an 8th and a RESA. That's the only
                    exception, but it does set a precedent.

                    IMO- The Glass Ceiling for 7ths is unjustified.
                    Why isn't there a more proportionate number
                    of 8ths to 7ths?

                    And, since there ARE a few ECK 9th Initiates
                    lurking around why wouldn't that initiation
                    be the actual Glass Ceiling, thus, allowing
                    at least 500 8th Initiates.

                    Actually, why does Klemp have these Glass
                    Ceilings? It's because he's a narcissist and
                    doen't want to share. He's a two faced
                    hypocrite! He talks about love and compassion,
                    but Not forgiveness! Thus, he has never
                    mentioned Darwin's (972nd LEM) death
                    to the ECK Membership let alone say
                    something nice about the former ECK
                    Master. That was the "test" that Klemp
                    failed. And when he fails a test like that
                    it means that he, too, has fallen from Grace!
                    His attachment to Power keeps him on the
                    throne.

                    Anyway, If Klemp wanted to he could have
                    promoted two or three initiates to the 12th.
                    Not all 12ths have to be LEMs and not all LEMs
                    have to be Mahantas... right? Sure!

                    And, to insure that these 12ths wouldn't
                    threaten his reign HK could have made them
                    all females. In ECKankar females can't become
                    LEM/Mahantas due to law/science/ tradition
                    or whatever. Klemp is just an old tired ass
                    selfish, mean spirited and fearful fuddy duddy
                    stuck in the past.

                    Klemp's negative behaviour and lack of
                    compassion towards Darwin, and especially
                    his death, is proof that he is both a hypocrite
                    and a fraud. But, this is human/KAL behaviour
                    typical of all religions and their leaders.

                    Unfortunately, ECKists (the most advanced
                    Souls ever, LOL) have tunnel vision and blinders
                    on. They can only focus upon that carrot (the
                    promise of more initiations leading to God-
                    Realization) as they trot along doing Service,
                    Surrendering, HUing, spending money on EK
                    materials and seminars, taking more training,
                    following the Guidelines and acting "as if" the
                    lies of PT and HK are the ultimate truth. Such
                    is religious belief. It may feel good and give
                    you some hope, peace of mind and security,
                    but it's not Reality or Truth! It's just filler...
                    like Klemp's simple-minded redundant books!

                    In truth, all religions and their dogmas are
                    "tests" for the more "advanced" Souls. When
                    one is able to finally see the correlations and
                    the lies and beyond the "group think" then
                    one is able to see with more clarity and discard
                    all religion. The veils of illusion slowly disappear
                    until one can commune privately, one-to-one,
                    with Divine Spirit.

                    Soul doesn't need a LEM or Mahanta or
                    a Master or a priest, or a Pope to intervene
                    or guide them on the Outer or Inner Planes.
                    Of course, all religions (including Eckankar)
                    cannot tolerate such statements. This is
                    heresy! People are executed, even today,
                    by religionists who claim to love God.
                    But, why does God need to be protected?

                    Thus, those religionists who attack us,
                    and the Truth, are ignorant, fearful,
                    weak-minded followers, and are immature
                    Souls.

                    Prometheus

                    ctecvie wrote:
                    Hi Jonathan and all,

                    my husband knew Bettine Clemen personally.
                    She once told him that either she or some people
                    she knew (I'm not sure) got the 3rd, 4th and 5th
                    initiations in one day - one or two in the morning
                    and the last one(s) in the afternoon!

                    At the time they needed a lot of higher initiates
                    as eckankar was still young. Now there are so
                    many HIs that they had to introduce a glass ceiling -
                    I guess that's why initiations are slowed down
                    so much!

                    It's all about administration and money, and power
                    of course ... :-))

                    Ingrid

                    jonathanjohns wrote:
                    >
                    > Prometheus,
                    >
                    > I'm going to add a few "facts" from my personal experience in the 1980-1983
                    time frame to the discussion.
                    >
                    > In your post just before the one I am responding to, you stated that "[Darwin]
                    Gross promoted 1000 Eckists to the 5th!" And then you followed it up with
                    "Ooops! I think that was 500 (not 1000) to the 5th, and around 1983 just before
                    being kicked out by Klemp!"
                    >
                    > I joined Eckanakar around 1979 so I got in on the last few years of Darwin
                    Gross' time as the LEM. I believe it was around 1980/1981 that a member of
                    Eckankar, B.S., told me that he was promoted directly from 3rd initiate to 5th
                    initiate. In other words, he skipped his 4th initiation. This may have occurred
                    later, in the 1983 time frame, I really can't be certain, but this "3 to 5
                    initiation" was definitely done by Darwin.
                    >
                    > Also, I heard about one other person who went from 3rd to 5th. The really
                    interesting thing is that I believe that both of these people had been in
                    Eckankar for less than 10 years. Eckankar started in 1965, so 15-18 years was
                    the absolute maximum time the person who spoke to me was in Eckankar. Plus, he
                    never spoke about Paul Twitchell, and I'm very certain he joined Eckankar after
                    Twitchell's death, making his maximum time in Eckankar about 10-13 years since
                    Darwin started in 1971. I honestly think that 7 to 8 years is a better estimate
                    of the time he was a member of Eckankar. He was only about 25 to 30 years old.
                    >
                    > By the way, regarding the person, B.S., who personally told me about skipping
                    his 4th initiation. I asked him how that happened. He gave me an explanation,
                    but I don't remember what it was. I believe it had something to do with the fact
                    that he progressed spiritually so fast, he didn't need to "pause" at the fourth.
                    But he wasn't arrogant so he probably said something like "the ECK need to
                    progress people really fast."
                    >
                    > It has been mentioned in other posts on this message board that things are a
                    lot different now, with many members of Eckankar going almost 30 years without
                    receiving their 5th initiation.
                    >
                    > Years later, I did hear from a higher HI that Darwin gave a lot of initiations
                    out to people who didn't really deserve them. Of course, during the time when
                    Darwin was the LEM, whatever he did or didn't do was 100% accepted by Eckankar's
                    membership, but after he was kicked out, everything Darwin did or didn't do was
                    automatically suspect if not completely wrong.
                    >
                    > Jonathan


                  • prometheus_973
                    Hello Ed and All, Now that my memory of this has been refreshed I do recall Klemp mentioning people in Africa being promoted rapidly due to the need for EK
                    Message 9 of 17 , Feb 2, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hello Ed and All,
                      Now that my memory of this has been
                      refreshed I do recall Klemp mentioning
                      people in Africa being promoted rapidly
                      due to the need for EK Leaders. I had
                      no idea as to how it was being done
                      and that initiations were being skipped!
                      HK would (and still) always say how
                      advanced and natural the Africans' beliefs
                      were. But, from what I've heard, there's
                      a lot of superstition, folk lore, and other
                      beliefs mixed in with the EK teachings.

                      Ed, can you share or elaborate on this?

                      Apparently HK's policy of this skipping
                      of initiations was a sin of omission on
                      Klemp's part. He knew that other EKists
                      wouldn't feel comfortable with this tactic.
                      HK never shared these details with the
                      membership. I guess that the general
                      membership didn't need to know how
                      he was conducting business since he
                      doesn't have to report to anyone for his
                      actions... like the Pope.

                      It just goes to show that the EK Initiations
                      can be manipulated for physical worldly
                      gains... more sales leaders.

                      It is hypocritical of Klemp to bring up
                      the fact that Paul promoted people
                      very rapidly to Higher Initiations due
                      to need when Eckankar was in the
                      early stages. Darwin did the same thing
                      early on and was never criticized for it.
                      When DG's and HK's conflict, in 1983,
                      was coming to a head Darwin promoted
                      500 EKists to the 5th initiation. The
                      problem was really with Klemp's ego.
                      Instead, Klemp made Darwin look like
                      the bad guy on this, too, because of
                      the other things that had taken place.

                      However, as I said before, IF Darwin
                      really was a Black Magician, as the nasty
                      Klempster claimed, that would mean
                      that those 500 EKists DG gave the 5th
                      to had actually been initiated, unknowingly,
                      into the Black Arts. Klemp claimed, at
                      the time, that viewing Darwin's picture
                      or reading his words could have psychic
                      influence over ECKists. Where was Klemp's
                      protection? This is why ECKists don't
                      usually read outside (unapproved) books
                      and info. Klemp has scared them from
                      doing so. But, where's the "protection"
                      from such things? Catch-22 again!

                      Anyway, let's not forget Klemp promoting
                      people in Europe rapidly as well. Plus,
                      after the schism in 1983-1984 Klemp
                      had gaps in EK leadership, due to H.I.s
                      leaving to follow Darwin, and thus
                      promoted his own group of H.I.s as fill-ins.
                      Once again, the promotions (initiations)
                      had nothing to do with Spiritual Growth.

                      Yes, it's interesting to discuss these
                      remembrances and piece together
                      information about the EK Initiations.
                      Klemp's cover-up and omissions on
                      his own policy of skipping initiations
                      is more proof that the initiations aren't
                      what ECKists imagine them to be.
                      The initiations are devalued when
                      the truth about how and why they
                      are manipulated becomes known.

                      Of course, the true blue EKist will
                      deny the truth. They need Eckankar
                      (religion) and will rationalize. They
                      turn a blind-eye to facts and to
                      critical thinking. They want to and
                      need to believe in Eckankar because
                      they don't have a replacement belief.
                      Also, Eckankar is convenient and like
                      all religions it "answers" our questions
                      with dogma that seems to make sense
                      at times. And, the promises (imaginings)
                      and dreams seem better than what other
                      religions seem to teach and offer. But,
                      that never ending "Service/Sales" crap
                      is the real turnoff! Well actually, Klemp
                      promoting his younger looking image
                      in "Tips for ECK Study" and on "The
                      Wisdom Notes" page is a real turn-off!
                      Such vanity!

                      Prometheus

                      Ed Kusi wrote:

                      Hi All,
                      This 3-5th,and even 2-5th happened in
                      Africa too. | personally know five HIs in
                      one country who were jumped from 2nd
                      and 3rd to the 5th Initiation. It happened
                      in Darwin's time and the reasons given
                      were as already mentioned in related posts.

                      Pretujari

                      prometheus wrote:

                      Hello All,
                      I just remembered something that
                      I heard back in the 80s from a
                      member of Klemp's EK Spiritual Council.
                      This 8th said that Harold needed to
                      make more H.I.s in Europe and that
                      he was making exceptions out of
                      necessity. And, HK had promoted
                      one person (a man), in Eastern Europe,
                      to the 9th. I never knew why this
                      9th initiation thing was/is such a
                      big secret. It's probably because
                      HK doesn't want to build up any
                      more expectations for those higher
                      initiations anymore than he has
                      already. That's why the "imagination"
                      pacifier is pushed onto H.I.s.

                      The only Catch to getting and keeping
                      the 9th lies with that individual Not telling
                      he/she is a 9th! However, this doesn't
                      prevent Klemp from sharing this info
                      with the membership. Twit more than
                      likely started the "no tell" rule because
                      he didn't want others to find out who
                      he had promoted, behind the backs
                      of his Spiritual Council, and be jealous.
                      Gail was probably a 9th as is Joan!

                      However, this "no tell" rule has been
                      expanded. No ECKists are supposed
                      to discuss (gossip about) the Ninth
                      Initiation openly.This is one reason
                      Klemp put this into the Masters 4 Discourse.
                      He got the speculation about the 9th
                      out of the way and at the same time
                      prevented any discussion of the matter
                      outside of The Master's 4 Satsang Class.
                      No ECKists are to discuss their discourses
                      outside of their Satsang Class! Plus,
                      Klemp has eliminated any other discussion,
                      second guessing, or questions and
                      speculation by referring to such as "gossip."
                      If any ECKist is reported for "gossiping"
                      any future initiations will be put on
                      hold. This is a fact that most long-time
                      H.I.s are well aware of. This is just another
                      fear tactic that Klemp uses to control his
                      flock and to keep them on task and sell
                      Eckankar! if Klemp had any true powers
                      or divine insight he wouldn't need his
                      spies, or the RESA police, or "stories"
                      mailed to him for use in his talks, books,
                      and EK publications.

                      prometheus wrote:

                      Hello Ingrid and All,
                      Yes, I know Bettine Clemen (Ware) too.
                      I didn't know that about ECKists getting
                      several initiations in one day. Was that
                      during Paul's reign, or Darwin's or both?
                      I know that Klemp would never do that...
                      he's too stingy! And, HK's RESA hierarchy
                      can't deal with higher ranking H.I.s
                      residing within their Satsangs. Although,
                      Bob Lawton (Klemp's former body guard)
                      is both an 8th and a RESA. That's the only
                      exception, but it does set a precedent.

                      IMO- The Glass Ceiling for 7ths is unjustified.
                      Why isn't there a more proportionate number
                      of 8ths to 7ths?

                      And, since there ARE a few ECK 9th Initiates
                      lurking around why wouldn't that initiation
                      be the actual Glass Ceiling, thus, allowing
                      at least 500 8th Initiates.

                      Actually, why does Klemp have these Glass
                      Ceilings? It's because he's a narcissist and
                      doen't want to share. He's a two faced
                      hypocrite! He talks about love and compassion,
                      but Not forgiveness! Thus, he has never
                      mentioned Darwin's (972nd LEM) death
                      to the ECK Membership let alone say
                      something nice about the former ECK
                      Master. That was the "test" that Klemp
                      failed. And when he fails a test like that
                      it means that he, too, has fallen from Grace!
                      His attachment to Power keeps him on the
                      throne.

                      Anyway, If Klemp wanted to he could have
                      promoted two or three initiates to the 12th.
                      Not all 12ths have to be LEMs and not all LEMs
                      have to be Mahantas... right? Sure!

                      And, to insure that these 12ths wouldn't
                      threaten his reign HK could have made them
                      all females. In ECKankar females can't become
                      LEM/Mahantas due to law/science/ tradition
                      or whatever. Klemp is just an old tired ass
                      selfish, mean spirited and fearful fuddy duddy
                      stuck in the past.

                      Klemp's negative behaviour and lack of
                      compassion towards Darwin, and especially
                      his death, is proof that he is both a hypocrite
                      and a fraud. But, this is human/KAL behaviour
                      typical of all religions and their leaders.

                      Unfortunately, ECKists (the most advanced
                      Souls ever, LOL) have tunnel vision and blinders
                      on. They can only focus upon that carrot (the
                      promise of more initiations leading to God-
                      Realization) as they trot along doing Service,
                      Surrendering, HUing, spending money on EK
                      materials and seminars, taking more training,
                      following the Guidelines and acting "as if" the
                      lies of PT and HK are the ultimate truth. Such
                      is religious belief. It may feel good and give
                      you some hope, peace of mind and security,
                      but it's not Reality or Truth! It's just filler...
                      like Klemp's simple-minded redundant books!

                      In truth, all religions and their dogmas are
                      "tests" for the more "advanced" Souls. When
                      one is able to finally see the correlations and
                      the lies and beyond the "group think" then
                      one is able to see with more clarity and discard
                      all religion. The veils of illusion slowly disappear
                      until one can commune privately, one-to-one,
                      with Divine Spirit.

                      Soul doesn't need a LEM or Mahanta or
                      a Master or a priest, or a Pope to intervene
                      or guide them on the Outer or Inner Planes.
                      Of course, all religions (including Eckankar)
                      cannot tolerate such statements. This is
                      heresy! People are executed, even today,
                      by religionists who claim to love God.
                      But, why does God need to be protected?

                      Thus, those religionists who attack us,
                      and the Truth, are ignorant, fearful,
                      weak-minded followers, and are immature
                      Souls.

                      Prometheus

                      ctecvie wrote:
                      Hi Jonathan and all,

                      my husband knew Bettine Clemen personally.
                      She once told him that either she or some people
                      she knew (I'm not sure) got the 3rd, 4th and 5th
                      initiations in one day - one or two in the morning
                      and the last one(s) in the afternoon!

                      At the time they needed a lot of higher initiates
                      as eckankar was still young. Now there are so
                      many HIs that they had to introduce a glass ceiling -
                      I guess that's why initiations are slowed down
                      so much!

                      It's all about administration and money, and power
                      of course ... :-))

                      Ingrid

                      jonathanjohns wrote:
                      >
                      > Prometheus,
                      >
                      > I'm going to add a few "facts" from my personal experience in the 1980-1983
                      time frame to the discussion.
                      >
                      > In your post just before the one I am responding to, you stated that "[Darwin]
                      Gross promoted 1000 Eckists to the 5th!" And then you followed it up with
                      "Ooops! I think that was 500 (not 1000) to the 5th, and around 1983 just before
                      being kicked out by Klemp!"
                      >
                      > I joined Eckanakar around 1979 so I got in on the last few years of Darwin
                      Gross' time as the LEM. I believe it was around 1980/1981 that a member of
                      Eckankar, B.S., told me that he was promoted directly from 3rd initiate to 5th
                      initiate. In other words, he skipped his 4th initiation. This may have occurred
                      later, in the 1983 time frame, I really can't be certain, but this "3 to 5
                      initiation" was definitely done by Darwin.
                      >
                      > Also, I heard about one other person who went from 3rd to 5th. The really
                      interesting thing is that I believe that both of these people had been in
                      Eckankar for less than 10 years. Eckankar started in 1965, so 15-18 years was
                      the absolute maximum time the person who spoke to me was in Eckankar. Plus, he
                      never spoke about Paul Twitchell, and I'm very certain he joined Eckankar after
                      Twitchell's death, making his maximum time in Eckankar about 10-13 years since
                      Darwin started in 1971. I honestly think that 7 to 8 years is a better estimate
                      of the time he was a member of Eckankar. He was only about 25 to 30 years old.
                      >
                      > By the way, regarding the person, B.S., who personally told me about skipping
                      his 4th initiation. I asked him how that happened. He gave me an explanation,
                      but I don't remember what it was. I believe it had something to do with the fact
                      that he progressed spiritually so fast, he didn't need to "pause" at the fourth.
                      But he wasn't arrogant so he probably said something like "the ECK need to
                      progress people really fast."
                      >
                      > It has been mentioned in other posts on this message board that things are a
                      lot different now, with many members of Eckankar going almost 30 years without
                      receiving their 5th initiation.
                      >
                      > Years later, I did hear from a higher HI that Darwin gave a lot of initiations
                      out to people who didn't really deserve them. Of course, during the time when
                      Darwin was the LEM, whatever he did or didn't do was 100% accepted by Eckankar's
                      membership, but after he was kicked out, everything Darwin did or didn't do was
                      automatically suspect if not completely wrong.
                      >
                      > Jonathan
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