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initiations

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  • zzoey75
    Hey prometheus. Some time back there was a discussion here concerning eckankar initiations, inner and outer. If you can remember, can you tell me which
    Message 1 of 17 , Jan 27, 2010
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      Hey prometheus. Some time back there was a discussion here concerning eckankar initiations, inner and outer. If you can remember, can you tell me which initiations are considered entirely inner, and which are required to also have an outer initiation with an eck clergy?

      My friend and I are curious about this.

      Thanks, zoey
    • prometheus_973
      Hello Zoey, I can understand the confusion. Klemp likes to keep his flock off-balance and second guessing. Initiations more mental than anything via the
      Message 2 of 17 , Jan 30, 2010
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        Hello Zoey,
        I can understand the confusion. Klemp
        likes to keep his flock off-balance and
        second guessing. Initiations more mental
        than anything via the imagination except
        for one's physical membership card with
        the number of one's plane of con. Oh, there
        are also those physical "pink slips" too.

        Basically, 1-9 are inner and outer,
        10-11 are inner, 12 is inner and outer,
        and 13-14 are inner.

        [1-9]
        In The Masters 4 Discourse, Lesson 2
        is the following:

        "Third, the final part of the Ninth
        Initiation occurs in the physical
        world."

        [12th]
        In Klemp's 1998 ECK Lexicon is this
        on page 226:

        "Voice of Akivasha. The oracle, until
        the first of this century, at a craggy,
        unexplored site called the Oracle of
        Tirmer in the Valley of Shangta in
        northern Tibet. It is here that the
        Rod of ECK Power is passed from
        the departing LEM to his successor
        on October 22 [Twitchell's Birthday],
        at midnight; sometimes called the
        Voice, or Oracle, of Tirmer."

        It should be noted that this is a
        physical, earthly, and "outer" location,
        although, it might be claimed that
        one travels there in the Astral Body
        which resembles one's physical body.
        This is why there are paintings and
        drawings of these people. Any body
        higher than the Astral would not
        otherwise have the same identifiable
        (physical) characteristics.

        It should be noted that in Klemp's
        1987 book, "Soul Travelers of the
        Far Country" on pages 186-187 that
        Klemp states:

        "The Ninth Initiation came on July 22,
        1981. Initiations in ECK beyond the
        Eighth are given ONLY on the inner
        planes."

        Of course, Darwin had to confirm
        HK's 9th on the outer. It seems that
        the 10th and 11th are minor initiations
        since Klemp achieved these between
        July 22, 1981 and October 22, 1981!


        Of course Klemp had to backtrack
        for the Masters 4 Discourse because
        how can one anoint card carrying
        9ths without an "outer" confirmation
        "final" stage?

        Else wise, everyone would be
        running around claiming to be
        a 9ths. It's bad enough that 7ths
        are claiming to be 8ths (on the inner),
        or that 8ths are claiming to be 9ths
        on the inner or that some Eckists
        skip initiations and, thus, there
        are 5ths claiming to be 8ths
        (on the inner).

        I hope that this info and perspective
        has helped to clarify the nonsense
        behind ECK Initiations.

        BTW- It seems that Eckists don't
        really need the Initiations, EK Books
        and Membership Cards, or Zoas,
        or Guidelines, Discourses, or Laws
        or Donations of Coin and Service...
        all they need is love!

        There is a Klemp quote in the
        Jan. 2010 "Letter of Light" that
        states:

        "Love is love. And this is what
        the ECK teachings are all about.
        Purely love, and just love. Simply
        love."

        Yep! All you need is love! Very
        simple and yet so profound!
        Say, wasn't that Jesus' message
        2000 years ago?!

        Prometheus

        zoey wrote:
        initiations

        Hey prometheus. Some time back there was
        a discussion here concerning eckankar
        initiations, inner and outer. If you can remember,
        can you tell me which initiations are considered
        entirely inner, and which are required to also
        have an outer initiation with an eck clergy?

        My friend and I are curious about this.

        Thanks, zoey
      • jonathanjohns96
        Prometheus, I m going to add a few facts from my personal experience in the 1980-1983 time frame to the discussion. In your post just before the one I am
        Message 3 of 17 , Jan 31, 2010
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          Prometheus,

          I'm going to add a few "facts" from my personal experience in the 1980-1983 time frame to the discussion.

          In your post just before the one I am responding to, you stated that "[Darwin] Gross promoted 1000 Eckists to the 5th!" And then you followed it up with "Ooops! I think that was 500 (not 1000) to the 5th, and around 1983 just before being kicked out by Klemp!"

          I joined Eckanakar around 1979 so I got in on the last few years of Darwin Gross' time as the LEM. I believe it was around 1980/1981 that a member of Eckankar, B.S., told me that he was promoted directly from 3rd initiate to 5th initiate. In other words, he skipped his 4th initiation. This may have occurred later, in the 1983 time frame, I really can't be certain, but this "3 to 5 initiation" was definitely done by Darwin.

          Also, I heard about one other person who went from 3rd to 5th. The really interesting thing is that I believe that both of these people had been in Eckankar for less than 10 years. Eckankar started in 1965, so 15-18 years was the absolute maximum time the person who spoke to me was in Eckankar. Plus, he never spoke about Paul Twitchell, and I'm very certain he joined Eckankar after Twitchell's death, making his maximum time in Eckankar about 10-13 years since Darwin started in 1971. I honestly think that 7 to 8 years is a better estimate of the time he was a member of Eckankar. He was only about 25 to 30 years old.

          By the way, regarding the person, B.S., who personally told me about skipping his 4th initiation. I asked him how that happened. He gave me an explanation, but I don't remember what it was. I believe it had something to do with the fact that he progressed spiritually so fast, he didn't need to "pause" at the fourth. But he wasn't arrogant so he probably said something like "the ECK need to progress people really fast."

          It has been mentioned in other posts on this message board that things are a lot different now, with many members of Eckankar going almost 30 years without receiving their 5th initiation.

          Years later, I did hear from a higher HI that Darwin gave a lot of initiations out to people who didn't really deserve them. Of course, during the time when Darwin was the LEM, whatever he did or didn't do was 100% accepted by Eckankar's membership, but after he was kicked out, everything Darwin did or didn't do was automatically suspect if not completely wrong.

          Jonathan
        • prometheus_973
          Hello Jonathan, Klemp never did explain when Darwin fell from Grace. Was it prior to Oct. 22, 1981? If so when? It was Klemp s idea to meet in the Sound
          Message 4 of 17 , Jan 31, 2010
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            Hello Jonathan,
            Klemp never did explain "when" Darwin
            fell from Grace. Was it prior to Oct. 22,
            1981? If so when? It was Klemp's idea
            to meet in the Sound Proof Dark Room
            (Golden-Tongued Wisdom, no ECK!) at
            the ESC to discuss the transition and being
            made the LEM.

            Klemp mentioned, after the fact, when
            he booted Darwin that DG had promoted
            500 to the 5th initiation before their time.
            Actually, if Darwin really was a Black Magician,
            as HK had claimed when DG promoted these
            people, that would indicate that these chelas
            had been initiated into the Black Arts versus
            Eckankar! Nobody ever viewed this or spoke
            of it from that perspective!

            I knew a person who got the 4th and
            then a few months later got the 5th from
            DG. Years later Klemp made this person
            a RESA. However, I had heard that people
            had skipped initiations and this was years
            prior to Darwin's fall. One person who posted
            here on ESA recently, Colleen Russell, made
            it to the 7th in 10 years or less. For some
            reason Klemp sees those promotions as
            necessary and okay but not Darwin's 1983
            promotions. Look at the promotions that
            Klemp got from Darwin! HK's selfish and
            doesn't want anyone else near his rank.

            I knew of one Eckist who got on the wrong
            side of his Klemp-Kal like RESA and remained
            a 4th for 25 years! Currently there are around
            5,000 7th initiates who have been locked into
            that initiation for 20-25 years! Why? Because
            Klemp is mean-spirited and doesn't want to
            share the "wealth."

            Over the years Klemp has made it more
            difficult for H.I.s to advance in initiation
            rank due to the hoops he has them jumping
            through. It's like a circus and he's the ring-
            master! The training requirements, as well as,
            Vahana/Service requirements and holding
            local positions to be noticed makes it difficult
            to advance when one has to play KAL-like
            games and "act as if" in order to get that
            outer pink slip. One cannot receive promotions
            (initiations) by being an ECK Monk. Klemp
            needs his servants/promoters/salespeople.
            There is no room for the purely spiritual seeker!

            Prometheus



            jonathanjohns wrote:
            >
            > Prometheus,
            >
            > I'm going to add a few "facts" from my
            personal experience in the 1980-1983
            time frame to the discussion.
            >
            > In your post just before the one I am
            responding to, you stated that "[Darwin]
            Gross promoted 1000 Eckists to the 5th!"
            And then you followed it up with "Ooops!
            I think that was 500 (not 1000) to the 5th,
            and around 1983 just before being kicked
            out by Klemp!"
            >
            > I joined Eckanakar around 1979 so
            I got in on the last few years of Darwin
            Gross' time as the LEM. I believe it was
            around 1980/1981 that a member of
            Eckankar, B.S., told me that he was
            promoted directly from 3rd initiate to
            5th initiate. In other words, he skipped
            his 4th initiation. This may have occurred
            later, in the 1983 time frame, I really can't
            be certain, but this "3 to 5 initiation" was
            definitely done by Darwin.
            >
            > Also, I heard about one other person
            who went from 3rd to 5th. The really
            interesting thing is that I believe that
            both of these people had been in Eckankar
            for less than 10 years. Eckankar started
            in 1965, so 15-18 years was the absolute
            maximum time the person who spoke to
            me was in Eckankar. Plus, he never spoke
            about Paul Twitchell, and I'm very certain
            he joined Eckankar after Twitchell's death,
            making his maximum time in Eckankar about
            10-13 years since Darwin started in 1971.
            I honestly think that 7 to 8 years is a better
            estimate of the time he was a member of
            Eckankar. He was only about 25 to 30 years
            old.
            >
            > By the way, regarding the person, B.S.,
            who personally told me about skipping his
            4th initiation. I asked him how that happened.
            He gave me an explanation, but I don't remember
            what it was. I believe it had something to do
            with the fact that he progressed spiritually so
            fast, he didn't need to "pause" at the fourth.
            But he wasn't arrogant so he probably said
            something like "the ECK need to progress
            people really fast."
            >
            > It has been mentioned in other posts
            on this message board that things are
            a lot different now, with many members
            of Eckankar going almost 30 years without
            receiving their 5th initiation.
            >
            > Years later, I did hear from a higher HI
            that Darwin gave a lot of initiations out to
            people who didn't really deserve them. Of
            course, during the time when Darwin was
            the LEM, whatever he did or didn't do was
            100% accepted by Eckankar's membership,
            but after he was kicked out, everything Darwin
            did or didn't do was automatically suspect
            if not completely wrong.
            >
            > Jonathan

            Prometheus wrote:

            Basically, 1-9 are inner and outer,
            10-11 are inner, 12 is inner and outer,
            and 13-14 are inner.

            [1-9]
            In The Masters 4 Discourse, Lesson 2
            is the following:

            "Third, the final part of the Ninth
            Initiation occurs in the physical
            world."

            [12th]
            In Klemp's 1998 ECK Lexicon is this
            on page 226:

            "Voice of Akivasha. The oracle, until
            the first of this century, at a craggy,
            unexplored site called the Oracle of
            Tirmer in the Valley of Shangta in
            northern Tibet. It is here that the
            Rod of ECK Power is passed from
            the departing LEM to his successor
            on October 22 [Twitchell's Birthday],
            at midnight; sometimes called the
            Voice, or Oracle, of Tirmer."

            It should be noted that this is a
            physical, earthly, and "outer" location,
            although, it might be claimed that
            one travels there in the Astral Body
            which resembles one's physical body.
            This is why there are paintings and
            drawings of these people. Any body
            higher than the Astral would not
            otherwise have the same identifiable
            (physical) characteristics.

            It should be noted that in Klemp's
            1987 book, "Soul Travelers of the
            Far Country" on pages 186-187 that
            Klemp states:

            "The Ninth Initiation came on July 22,
            1981. Initiations in ECK beyond the
            Eighth are given ONLY on the inner
            planes."

            Of course, Darwin had to confirm
            HK's 9th on the outer. It seems that
            the 10th and 11th are minor initiations
            since Klemp achieved these between
            July 22, 1981 and October 22, 1981!


            Of course Klemp had to backtrack
            for the Masters 4 Discourse because
            how can one anoint card carrying
            9ths without an "outer" confirmation
            "final" stage?

            Else wise, everyone would be
            running around claiming to be
            a 9ths. It's bad enough that 7ths
            are claiming to be 8ths (on the inner),
            or that 8ths are claiming to be 9ths
            on the inner or that some Eckists
            skip initiations and, thus, there
            are 5ths claiming to be 8ths
            (on the inner).
          • jonathanjohns96
            Prometheus, Thanks for your reply. You said I had heard that people had skipped initiations and this was years prior to Darwin s fall. I thought it was about
            Message 5 of 17 , Jan 31, 2010
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              Prometheus,

              Thanks for your reply. You said "I had heard that people had skipped initiations and this was years prior to Darwin's fall." I thought it was about 1980-1981 when this person told me this, but he might have received his 5th years before. So thank you for your verification that you heard about it years before Darwin's fall. He was a very honest person, I don't doubt that he skipped his 4th, just as he told me that he did. After all, if he was going to lie, he probably would have said that it didn't happen in order to cover up the fact. I wanted to mention it just as a way of attempting to preserve the "true history" of Eckankar. I'm not sure why I care about doing that (for them) but I do. I guess I don't want to see them put out their fabricated history of Eckankar where they say "rumors that people in the past skipped imitations are untrue." I could just see that happening. But I still don't know why I care. I guess I believe the world deserves an honest history of Eckankar. And I certainly don't trust them to do it.

              You also said "One person who posted here on ESA recently, Colleen Russell, made it to the 7th in 10 years or less." That is truly amazing, isn't it? It makes my recollection (and interpretation) of the Eckist I spoke to, B.S., making it to the 5th in 7 to 8 years by 1981 all the more believable. But he was definitely doing all the "right stuff," I feel because he really believed in it. A few years later he went to work for the International office.

              You also said "I knew of one Eckist who got on the wrong side of his Klemp-Kal like RESA and remained a 4th for 25 years!" My experience was that I got my 5th on the "29 year mark." But I did take a five year sabbatical. And I wasn't doing any of the right things. I didn't give talks. I put up some posters with some other people one time. I never volunteered at the Eck center. I did volunteer at an Eckankar booth at a health fair one time. I did attend the Worship Services, at times fairly regularly, but I guess that didn't count for very much.

              Also, I thought the initiation were based on my spiritual progress. I thought Klemp was hard at work on the inner, keeping track of me, much like Santa Clause does. So I had no clue that your next initiation was based on doing volunteer work to promote Eckankar.

              So it truly is amazing to see the differences between now and back in the days when Darwin was the LEM. I think you have already mentioned this many times, but I think that a lot of it has to do with the fact that Klemp has become more and more paranoid through the years. And so he demands more and more and more through the years before he even trusts any members. I must admit that when you were discussing the difference between Darwin and today's Klemp, I didn't realize how severe the difference was.

              I'd like to change the subject a little bit. In my last year in Eckankar, we had a "guest" at a worship service, which is something that almost never happened. He was very quiet, middle-aged in his 50s I suppose. I thought he wasn't a member of Eckankar. A week or two later I learned that he was a member, had been for about 20 to 30 years (I can't remember the exact number), but he just never attended official Eckankar activities. I was really surprised. The higher HI who gave me the information about him said that there are a lot of members in the local area like this. By the way, he did live about an hour drive from the center.

              So, Prometheus, I would like to ask you two questions since you were active in the functioning of your Eck center. Were you aware of people like this who had zero involvement in the outer functions of Eckankar? And do you think that these people were commonly passed over for initiations?

              Jonathan
            • prometheus_973
              Hi Jonathan, Okay, I ll give your questions a shot from my perspectives as a former H.I. and EK Leader. Yes, we had people like this turn up every now and then
              Message 6 of 17 , Jan 31, 2010
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                Hi Jonathan,
                Okay, I'll give your questions a shot from my
                perspectives as a former H.I. and EK Leader.
                Yes, we had people like this turn up every now
                and then over the decades. Some had years on
                me and yet I'd never seen them before. Others
                were from other parts of the state or had left
                Eckankar and then returned. Some had been
                on a rest period, or were on a rest period and
                didn't know anything "current." Anyone not
                wanting to stick out like a sore thumb just needs
                to quote the Shariyat, or talk about the Mahanta's
                love, or about Surrender and they should fit-in
                as though they had never been gone.

                I'll respond to the questions below--


                Jonathan wrote:
                I'd like to change the subject a little bit. In my last year in Eckankar, we had
                a "guest" at a worship service, which is something that almost never happened.
                He was very quiet, middle-aged in his 50s I suppose. I thought he wasn't a
                member of Eckankar. A week or two later I learned that he was a member, had been
                for about 20 to 30 years (I can't remember the exact number), but he just never
                attended official Eckankar activities. I was really surprised. The higher HI who
                gave me the information about him said that there are a lot of members in the
                local area like this. By the way, he did live about an hour drive from the
                center.

                So, Prometheus, I would like to ask you two
                questions since you were active in the functioning
                of your Eck center.

                1.) Were you aware of people like this who had
                zero involvement in the outer functions of Eckankar?


                P- Yes, at times there I had never met some
                of those on the ESC's membership list. Others
                I knew of. Some only came to the ECK Worship
                Service (EWS) or to Satsang. Sometimes I would
                try to get them to volunteer by finding out what
                they might like to do and then I would have that
                specific coordinator speak to them. It was very
                important to welcome and befriend them and
                make them feel at home and want to join in and
                socialize and to give them a volunteer position
                so that they would feel needed. I then tried to
                get them into Satsang Classes. Of course
                that was another problem because I had to have
                a Satsang Arahata to teach the class. Some EKists
                took the Arahata Training, but still hadn't taught
                a class after two years which, according to the Guidelines,
                meant that they needed to be retrained. Retraining
                was a problem because there needed to be trainers
                available to do the retraining. Everything in Eckankar
                takes forever to accomplish. And, in the end after
                everything is said and done, only a handful of people
                ever join and even fewer renew after the first year.
                Word of mouth or Klemp getting on the radio or
                TV would be best, but Klemp is lazy and a faker
                that can't handle the heat. His main focus is to
                keep ECKists busy and involved and to sell them
                more EK materials ($)... to distribute to the trash
                cans.

                2.) And do you think that these people were commonly
                passed over for initiations?

                P- Well, that depends on who you know as well.
                I had a 4th who finally became a volunteer after
                many years of membership. I gave him an important
                coordinator position. However, he quit the position
                after six months! One promises that they will stay
                in the EK position for one year (ending on Oct.22).
                Apparently he had some pull with some friends of
                the RESA and I was never called about his initiation.
                He soon got his 5th! I would never have approved
                him. His knowledge of the EK teachings were poor
                and he was a poor example for an EK leader. He
                did make an attempt to turn over a "new leaf" but
                it was too little too late. To this day he's still a
                poor excuse for a H.I., but that's good!

                Other people who don't volunteer or attend
                the appropriate training classes for advancement
                will be passed over. Plus, one has to have an
                "active" membership. If you're on a rest period
                then your time-in-grade for advancement is
                frozen. Also, one has to watch out what they
                say, where and when, and to whom they say it.
                Sometimes honestly is not the best policy! If
                you get put on the RESA's Black List and are
                passed over you can be in the toilet for "at least"
                three years or until you prove yourself to the
                Next RESA.

                I've seen it happen where the RESA stepped
                down and people who never had a chance of
                getting promoted finally got promoted! I've
                also seen people move to other states and get
                promoted immediately under a different (nicer)
                RESA. It happens all the time. Attend enough
                seminars and talk to enough EK Leaders and
                you can hear all sorts of "stories" that Klemp
                doesn't want to hear or know about. So much
                for the "All Knowing Mahanta!"

                Yes, I remember back in the mid 80's that
                there were Circles of Initiation Workshops
                and that some H.I.s had to pass at being
                facilitators on certain ones (third & fourth)
                because they either skipped that initiation
                or had been in it for only a few months before
                getting promoted. How can one talk about
                the trials and tribulations of the 4th when
                you skipped it or had been in it for a few
                months?

                Prometheus





                jonathan wrote:
                Prometheus,

                Thanks for your reply. You said "I had heard that people had skipped initiations
                and this was years prior to Darwin's fall." I thought it was about 1980-1981
                when this person told me this, but he might have received his 5th years before.
                So thank you for your verification that you heard about it years before Darwin's
                fall. He was a very honest person, I don't doubt that he skipped his 4th, just
                as he told me that he did. After all, if he was going to lie, he probably would
                have said that it didn't happen in order to cover up the fact. I wanted to
                mention it just as a way of attempting to preserve the "true history" of
                Eckankar. I'm not sure why I care about doing that (for them) but I do. I guess
                I don't want to see them put out their fabricated history of Eckankar where they
                say "rumors that people in the past skipped imitations are untrue." I could just
                see that happening. But I still don't know why I care. I guess I believe the
                world deserves an honest history of Eckankar. And I certainly don't trust them
                to do it.

                You also said "One person who posted here on ESA recently, Colleen Russell, made
                it to the 7th in 10 years or less." That is truly amazing, isn't it? It makes my
                recollection (and interpretation) of the Eckist I spoke to, B.S., making it to
                the 5th in 7 to 8 years by 1981 all the more believable. But he was definitely
                doing all the "right stuff," I feel because he really believed in it. A few
                years later he went to work for the International office.

                You also said "I knew of one Eckist who got on the wrong side of his Klemp-Kal
                like RESA and remained a 4th for 25 years!" My experience was that I got my 5th
                on the "29 year mark." But I did take a five year sabbatical. And I wasn't doing
                any of the right things. I didn't give talks. I put up some posters with some
                other people one time. I never volunteered at the Eck center. I did volunteer at
                an Eckankar booth at a health fair one time. I did attend the Worship Services,
                at times fairly regularly, but I guess that didn't count for very much.

                Also, I thought the initiation were based on my spiritual progress. I thought
                Klemp was hard at work on the inner, keeping track of me, much like Santa Clause
                does. So I had no clue that your next initiation was based on doing volunteer
                work to promote Eckankar.

                So it truly is amazing to see the differences between now and back in the days
                when Darwin was the LEM. I think you have already mentioned this many times, but
                I think that a lot of it has to do with the fact that Klemp has become more and
                more paranoid through the years. And so he demands more and more and more
                through the years before he even trusts any members. I must admit that when you
                were discussing the difference between Darwin and today's Klemp, I didn't
                realize how severe the difference was.

                I'd like to change the subject a little bit. In my last year in Eckankar, we had
                a "guest" at a worship service, which is something that almost never happened.
                He was very quiet, middle-aged in his 50s I suppose. I thought he wasn't a
                member of Eckankar. A week or two later I learned that he was a member, had been
                for about 20 to 30 years (I can't remember the exact number), but he just never
                attended official Eckankar activities. I was really surprised. The higher HI who
                gave me the information about him said that there are a lot of members in the
                local area like this. By the way, he did live about an hour drive from the
                center.

                So, Prometheus, I would like to ask you two questions since you were active in
                the functioning of your Eck center. Were you aware of people like this who had
                zero involvement in the outer functions of Eckankar? And do you think that these
                people were commonly passed over for initiations?

                Jonathan
              • ctecvie
                Hi Jonathan and all, my husband knew Bettine Clemen personally. She once told him that either she or some people she knew (I m not sure) got the 3rd, 4th and
                Message 7 of 17 , Feb 1, 2010
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                  Hi Jonathan and all,

                  my husband knew Bettine Clemen personally. She once told him that either she or some people she knew (I'm not sure) got the 3rd, 4th and 5th initiations in one day - one or two in the morning and the last one(s) in the afternoon!

                  At the time they needed a lot of higher initiates as eckankar was still young. Now there are so many HIs that they had to introduce a glass ceiling - I guess that's why initiations are slowed down so much!

                  It's all about administration and money, and power of course ... :-))
                  Ingrid

                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96" <jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Prometheus,
                  >
                  > I'm going to add a few "facts" from my personal experience in the 1980-1983 time frame to the discussion.
                  >
                  > In your post just before the one I am responding to, you stated that "[Darwin] Gross promoted 1000 Eckists to the 5th!" And then you followed it up with "Ooops! I think that was 500 (not 1000) to the 5th, and around 1983 just before being kicked out by Klemp!"
                  >
                  > I joined Eckanakar around 1979 so I got in on the last few years of Darwin Gross' time as the LEM. I believe it was around 1980/1981 that a member of Eckankar, B.S., told me that he was promoted directly from 3rd initiate to 5th initiate. In other words, he skipped his 4th initiation. This may have occurred later, in the 1983 time frame, I really can't be certain, but this "3 to 5 initiation" was definitely done by Darwin.
                  >
                  > Also, I heard about one other person who went from 3rd to 5th. The really interesting thing is that I believe that both of these people had been in Eckankar for less than 10 years. Eckankar started in 1965, so 15-18 years was the absolute maximum time the person who spoke to me was in Eckankar. Plus, he never spoke about Paul Twitchell, and I'm very certain he joined Eckankar after Twitchell's death, making his maximum time in Eckankar about 10-13 years since Darwin started in 1971. I honestly think that 7 to 8 years is a better estimate of the time he was a member of Eckankar. He was only about 25 to 30 years old.
                  >
                  > By the way, regarding the person, B.S., who personally told me about skipping his 4th initiation. I asked him how that happened. He gave me an explanation, but I don't remember what it was. I believe it had something to do with the fact that he progressed spiritually so fast, he didn't need to "pause" at the fourth. But he wasn't arrogant so he probably said something like "the ECK need to progress people really fast."
                  >
                  > It has been mentioned in other posts on this message board that things are a lot different now, with many members of Eckankar going almost 30 years without receiving their 5th initiation.
                  >
                  > Years later, I did hear from a higher HI that Darwin gave a lot of initiations out to people who didn't really deserve them. Of course, during the time when Darwin was the LEM, whatever he did or didn't do was 100% accepted by Eckankar's membership, but after he was kicked out, everything Darwin did or didn't do was automatically suspect if not completely wrong.
                  >
                  > Jonathan
                  >
                • prometheus_973
                  Hello Ingrid and All, Yes, I know Bettine Clemen (Ware) too. I didn t know that about ECKists getting several initiations in one day. Was that during Paul s
                  Message 8 of 17 , Feb 1, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hello Ingrid and All,
                    Yes, I know Bettine Clemen (Ware) too.
                    I didn't know that about ECKists getting
                    several initiations in one day. Was that
                    during Paul's reign, or Darwin's or both?
                    I know that Klemp would never do that...
                    he's too stingy! And, HK's RESA hierarchy
                    can't deal with higher ranking H.I.s
                    residing within their Satsangs. Although,
                    Bob Lawton (Klemp's former body guard)
                    is both an 8th and a RESA. That's the only
                    exception, but it does set a precedent.

                    IMO- The Glass Ceiling for 7ths is unjustified.
                    Why isn't there a more proportionate number
                    of 8ths to 7ths?

                    And, since there ARE a few ECK 9th Initiates
                    lurking around why wouldn't that initiation
                    be the actual Glass Ceiling, thus, allowing
                    at least 500 8th Initiates.

                    Actually, why does Klemp have these Glass
                    Ceilings? It's because he's a narcissist and
                    doen't want to share. He's a two faced
                    hypocrite! He talks about love and compassion,
                    but Not forgiveness! Thus, he has never
                    mentioned Darwin's (972nd LEM) death
                    to the ECK Membership let alone say
                    something nice about the former ECK
                    Master. That was the "test" that Klemp
                    failed. And when he fails a test like that
                    it means that he, too, has fallen from Grace!
                    His attachment to Power keeps him on the
                    throne.

                    Anyway, If Klemp wanted to he could have
                    promoted two or three initiates to the 12th.
                    Not all 12ths have to be LEMs and not all LEMs
                    have to be Mahantas... right? Sure!

                    And, to insure that these 12ths wouldn't
                    threaten his reign HK could have made them
                    all females. In ECKankar females can't become
                    LEM/Mahantas due to law/science/tradition
                    or whatever. Klemp is just an old tired ass
                    selfish, mean spirited and fearful fuddy duddy
                    stuck in the past.

                    Klemp's negative behaviour and lack of
                    compassion towards Darwin, and especially
                    his death, is proof that he is both a hypocrite
                    and a fraud. But, this is human/KAL behaviour
                    typical of all religions and their leaders.

                    Unfortunately, ECKists (the most advanced
                    Souls ever, LOL) have tunnel vision and blinders
                    on. They can only focus upon that carrot (the
                    promise of more initiations leading to God-
                    Realization) as they trot along doing Service,
                    Surrendering, HUing, spending money on EK
                    materials and seminars, taking more training,
                    following the Guidelines and acting "as if" the
                    lies of PT and HK are the ultimate truth. Such
                    is religious belief. It may feel good and give
                    you some hope, peace of mind and security,
                    but it's not Reality or Truth! It's just filler...
                    like Klemp's simple-minded redundant books!

                    In truth, all religions and their dogmas are
                    "tests" for the more "advanced" Souls. When
                    one is able to finally see the correlations and
                    the lies and beyond the "group think" then
                    one is able to see with more clarity and discard
                    all religion. The veils of illusion slowly disappear
                    until one can commune privately, one-to-one,
                    with Divine Spirit.

                    Soul doesn't need a LEM or Mahanta or
                    a Master or a priest, or a Pope to intervene
                    or guide them on the Outer or Inner Planes.
                    Of course, all religions (including Eckankar)
                    cannot tolerate such statements. This is
                    heresy! People are executed, even today,
                    by religionists who claim to love God.
                    But, why does God need to be protected?

                    Thus, those religionists who attack us,
                    and the Truth, are ignorant, fearful,
                    weak-minded followers, and are immature
                    Souls.

                    Prometheus


                    ctecvie wrote:
                    Hi Jonathan and all,

                    my husband knew Bettine Clemen personally.
                    She once told him that either she or some people
                    she knew (I'm not sure) got the 3rd, 4th and 5th
                    initiations in one day - one or two in the morning
                    and the last one(s) in the afternoon!

                    At the time they needed a lot of higher initiates
                    as eckankar was still young. Now there are so
                    many HIs that they had to introduce a glass ceiling -
                    I guess that's why initiations are slowed down
                    so much!

                    It's all about administration and money, and power
                    of course ... :-))

                    Ingrid

                    jonathanjohns wrote:
                    >
                    > Prometheus,
                    >
                    > I'm going to add a few "facts" from my personal experience in the 1980-1983
                    time frame to the discussion.
                    >
                    > In your post just before the one I am responding to, you stated that "[Darwin]
                    Gross promoted 1000 Eckists to the 5th!" And then you followed it up with
                    "Ooops! I think that was 500 (not 1000) to the 5th, and around 1983 just before
                    being kicked out by Klemp!"
                    >
                    > I joined Eckanakar around 1979 so I got in on the last few years of Darwin
                    Gross' time as the LEM. I believe it was around 1980/1981 that a member of
                    Eckankar, B.S., told me that he was promoted directly from 3rd initiate to 5th
                    initiate. In other words, he skipped his 4th initiation. This may have occurred
                    later, in the 1983 time frame, I really can't be certain, but this "3 to 5
                    initiation" was definitely done by Darwin.
                    >
                    > Also, I heard about one other person who went from 3rd to 5th. The really
                    interesting thing is that I believe that both of these people had been in
                    Eckankar for less than 10 years. Eckankar started in 1965, so 15-18 years was
                    the absolute maximum time the person who spoke to me was in Eckankar. Plus, he
                    never spoke about Paul Twitchell, and I'm very certain he joined Eckankar after
                    Twitchell's death, making his maximum time in Eckankar about 10-13 years since
                    Darwin started in 1971. I honestly think that 7 to 8 years is a better estimate
                    of the time he was a member of Eckankar. He was only about 25 to 30 years old.
                    >
                    > By the way, regarding the person, B.S., who personally told me about skipping
                    his 4th initiation. I asked him how that happened. He gave me an explanation,
                    but I don't remember what it was. I believe it had something to do with the fact
                    that he progressed spiritually so fast, he didn't need to "pause" at the fourth.
                    But he wasn't arrogant so he probably said something like "the ECK need to
                    progress people really fast."
                    >
                    > It has been mentioned in other posts on this message board that things are a
                    lot different now, with many members of Eckankar going almost 30 years without
                    receiving their 5th initiation.
                    >
                    > Years later, I did hear from a higher HI that Darwin gave a lot of initiations
                    out to people who didn't really deserve them. Of course, during the time when
                    Darwin was the LEM, whatever he did or didn't do was 100% accepted by Eckankar's
                    membership, but after he was kicked out, everything Darwin did or didn't do was
                    automatically suspect if not completely wrong.
                    >
                    > Jonathan
                    >
                  • prometheus_973
                    Hello All, I just remembered something that I heard back in the 80s from a member of Klemp s EK Spiritual Council. This 8th said that Harold needed to make
                    Message 9 of 17 , Feb 1, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hello All,
                      I just remembered something that
                      I heard back in the 80s from a
                      member of Klemp's EK Spiritual Council.
                      This 8th said that Harold needed to
                      make more H.I.s in Europe and that
                      he was making exceptions out of
                      necessity. And, HK had promoted
                      one person (a man), in Eastern Europe,
                      to the 9th. I never knew why this
                      9th initiation thing was/is such a
                      big secret. It's probably because
                      HK doesn't want to build up any
                      more expectations for those higher
                      initiations anymore than he has
                      already. That's why the "imagination"
                      pacifier is pushed onto H.I.s.

                      The only Catch to getting and keeping
                      the 9th lies with that individual Not telling
                      he/she is a 9th! However, this doesn't
                      prevent Klemp from sharing this info
                      with the membership. Twit more than
                      likely started the "no tell" rule because
                      he didn't want others to find out who
                      he had promoted, behind the backs
                      of his Spiritual Council, and be jealous.
                      Gail was probably a 9th as is Joan!

                      However, this "no tell" rule has been
                      expanded. No ECKists are supposed
                      to discuss (gossip about) the Ninth
                      Initiation openly.This is one reason
                      Klemp put this into the Masters 4 Discourse.
                      He got the speculation about the 9th
                      out of the way and at the same time
                      prevented any discussion of the matter
                      outside of The Master's 4 Satsang Class.
                      No ECKists are to discuss their discourses
                      outside of their Satsang Class! Plus,
                      Klemp has eliminated any other discussion,
                      second guessing, or questions and
                      speculation by referring to such as "gossip."
                      If any ECKist is reported for "gossiping"
                      any future initiations will be put on
                      hold. This is a fact that most long-time
                      H.I.s are well aware of. This is just another
                      fear tactic that Klemp uses to control his
                      flock and to keep them on task and sell
                      Eckankar! if Klemp had any true powers
                      or divine insight he wouldn't need his
                      spies, or the RESA police, or "stories"
                      mailed to him for use in his talks, books,
                      and EK publications.


                      prometheus wrote:

                      Hello Ingrid and All,
                      Yes, I know Bettine Clemen (Ware) too.
                      I didn't know that about ECKists getting
                      several initiations in one day. Was that
                      during Paul's reign, or Darwin's or both?
                      I know that Klemp would never do that...
                      he's too stingy! And, HK's RESA hierarchy
                      can't deal with higher ranking H.I.s
                      residing within their Satsangs. Although,
                      Bob Lawton (Klemp's former body guard)
                      is both an 8th and a RESA. That's the only
                      exception, but it does set a precedent.

                      IMO- The Glass Ceiling for 7ths is unjustified.
                      Why isn't there a more proportionate number
                      of 8ths to 7ths?

                      And, since there ARE a few ECK 9th Initiates
                      lurking around why wouldn't that initiation
                      be the actual Glass Ceiling, thus, allowing
                      at least 500 8th Initiates.

                      Actually, why does Klemp have these Glass
                      Ceilings? It's because he's a narcissist and
                      doen't want to share. He's a two faced
                      hypocrite! He talks about love and compassion,
                      but Not forgiveness! Thus, he has never
                      mentioned Darwin's (972nd LEM) death
                      to the ECK Membership let alone say
                      something nice about the former ECK
                      Master. That was the "test" that Klemp
                      failed. And when he fails a test like that
                      it means that he, too, has fallen from Grace!
                      His attachment to Power keeps him on the
                      throne.

                      Anyway, If Klemp wanted to he could have
                      promoted two or three initiates to the 12th.
                      Not all 12ths have to be LEMs and not all LEMs
                      have to be Mahantas... right? Sure!

                      And, to insure that these 12ths wouldn't
                      threaten his reign HK could have made them
                      all females. In ECKankar females can't become
                      LEM/Mahantas due to law/science/tradition
                      or whatever. Klemp is just an old tired ass
                      selfish, mean spirited and fearful fuddy duddy
                      stuck in the past.

                      Klemp's negative behaviour and lack of
                      compassion towards Darwin, and especially
                      his death, is proof that he is both a hypocrite
                      and a fraud. But, this is human/KAL behaviour
                      typical of all religions and their leaders.

                      Unfortunately, ECKists (the most advanced
                      Souls ever, LOL) have tunnel vision and blinders
                      on. They can only focus upon that carrot (the
                      promise of more initiations leading to God-
                      Realization) as they trot along doing Service,
                      Surrendering, HUing, spending money on EK
                      materials and seminars, taking more training,
                      following the Guidelines and acting "as if" the
                      lies of PT and HK are the ultimate truth. Such
                      is religious belief. It may feel good and give
                      you some hope, peace of mind and security,
                      but it's not Reality or Truth! It's just filler...
                      like Klemp's simple-minded redundant books!

                      In truth, all religions and their dogmas are
                      "tests" for the more "advanced" Souls. When
                      one is able to finally see the correlations and
                      the lies and beyond the "group think" then
                      one is able to see with more clarity and discard
                      all religion. The veils of illusion slowly disappear
                      until one can commune privately, one-to-one,
                      with Divine Spirit.

                      Soul doesn't need a LEM or Mahanta or
                      a Master or a priest, or a Pope to intervene
                      or guide them on the Outer or Inner Planes.
                      Of course, all religions (including Eckankar)
                      cannot tolerate such statements. This is
                      heresy! People are executed, even today,
                      by religionists who claim to love God.
                      But, why does God need to be protected?

                      Thus, those religionists who attack us,
                      and the Truth, are ignorant, fearful,
                      weak-minded followers, and are immature
                      Souls.

                      Prometheus


                      ctecvie wrote:
                      Hi Jonathan and all,

                      my husband knew Bettine Clemen personally.
                      She once told him that either she or some people
                      she knew (I'm not sure) got the 3rd, 4th and 5th
                      initiations in one day - one or two in the morning
                      and the last one(s) in the afternoon!

                      At the time they needed a lot of higher initiates
                      as eckankar was still young. Now there are so
                      many HIs that they had to introduce a glass ceiling -
                      I guess that's why initiations are slowed down
                      so much!

                      It's all about administration and money, and power
                      of course ... :-))

                      Ingrid

                      jonathanjohns wrote:
                      >
                      > Prometheus,
                      >
                      > I'm going to add a few "facts" from my personal experience in the 1980-1983
                      time frame to the discussion.
                      >
                      > In your post just before the one I am responding to, you stated that "[Darwin]
                      Gross promoted 1000 Eckists to the 5th!" And then you followed it up with
                      "Ooops! I think that was 500 (not 1000) to the 5th, and around 1983 just before
                      being kicked out by Klemp!"
                      >
                      > I joined Eckanakar around 1979 so I got in on the last few years of Darwin
                      Gross' time as the LEM. I believe it was around 1980/1981 that a member of
                      Eckankar, B.S., told me that he was promoted directly from 3rd initiate to 5th
                      initiate. In other words, he skipped his 4th initiation. This may have occurred
                      later, in the 1983 time frame, I really can't be certain, but this "3 to 5
                      initiation" was definitely done by Darwin.
                      >
                      > Also, I heard about one other person who went from 3rd to 5th. The really
                      interesting thing is that I believe that both of these people had been in
                      Eckankar for less than 10 years. Eckankar started in 1965, so 15-18 years was
                      the absolute maximum time the person who spoke to me was in Eckankar. Plus, he
                      never spoke about Paul Twitchell, and I'm very certain he joined Eckankar after
                      Twitchell's death, making his maximum time in Eckankar about 10-13 years since
                      Darwin started in 1971. I honestly think that 7 to 8 years is a better estimate
                      of the time he was a member of Eckankar. He was only about 25 to 30 years old.
                      >
                      > By the way, regarding the person, B.S., who personally told me about skipping
                      his 4th initiation. I asked him how that happened. He gave me an explanation,
                      but I don't remember what it was. I believe it had something to do with the fact
                      that he progressed spiritually so fast, he didn't need to "pause" at the fourth.
                      But he wasn't arrogant so he probably said something like "the ECK need to
                      progress people really fast."
                      >
                      > It has been mentioned in other posts on this message board that things are a
                      lot different now, with many members of Eckankar going almost 30 years without
                      receiving their 5th initiation.
                      >
                      > Years later, I did hear from a higher HI that Darwin gave a lot of initiations
                      out to people who didn't really deserve them. Of course, during the time when
                      Darwin was the LEM, whatever he did or didn't do was 100% accepted by Eckankar's
                      membership, but after he was kicked out, everything Darwin did or didn't do was
                      automatically suspect if not completely wrong.
                      >
                      > Jonathan
                    • Ed Kusi
                      Hi All, This 3-5th,and even 2-5th happened in Africa too. | personally know five HIs in one country who were jumped from 2nd and 3rd to the 5th Initiation. It
                      Message 10 of 17 , Feb 1, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi All,
                        This 3-5th,and even 2-5th happened in Africa too. | personally know five HIs in one country who were jumped from 2nd and 3rd to the 5th Initiation. It happened in Darwin's time and the reasons given were as already mentioned in related posts.

                        Pretujari

                        --- On Mon, 2/1/10, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: 3rd initiation to 5th initiation (not me) in 1980-1983 time frame
                        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Monday, February 1, 2010, 2:03 PM

                         

                        Hello All,
                        I just remembered something that
                        I heard back in the 80s from a
                        member of Klemp's EK Spiritual Council.
                        This 8th said that Harold needed to
                        make more H.I.s in Europe and that
                        he was making exceptions out of
                        necessity. And, HK had promoted
                        one person (a man), in Eastern Europe,
                        to the 9th. I never knew why this
                        9th initiation thing was/is such a
                        big secret. It's probably because
                        HK doesn't want to build up any
                        more expectations for those higher
                        initiations anymore than he has
                        already. That's why the "imagination"
                        pacifier is pushed onto H.I.s.

                        The only Catch to getting and keeping
                        the 9th lies with that individual Not telling
                        he/she is a 9th! However, this doesn't
                        prevent Klemp from sharing this info
                        with the membership. Twit more than
                        likely started the "no tell" rule because
                        he didn't want others to find out who
                        he had promoted, behind the backs
                        of his Spiritual Council, and be jealous.
                        Gail was probably a 9th as is Joan!

                        However, this "no tell" rule has been
                        expanded. No ECKists are supposed
                        to discuss (gossip about) the Ninth
                        Initiation openly.This is one reason
                        Klemp put this into the Masters 4 Discourse.
                        He got the speculation about the 9th
                        out of the way and at the same time
                        prevented any discussion of the matter
                        outside of The Master's 4 Satsang Class.
                        No ECKists are to discuss their discourses
                        outside of their Satsang Class! Plus,
                        Klemp has eliminated any other discussion,
                        second guessing, or questions and
                        speculation by referring to such as "gossip."
                        If any ECKist is reported for "gossiping"
                        any future initiations will be put on
                        hold. This is a fact that most long-time
                        H.I.s are well aware of. This is just another
                        fear tactic that Klemp uses to control his
                        flock and to keep them on task and sell
                        Eckankar! if Klemp had any true powers
                        or divine insight he wouldn't need his
                        spies, or the RESA police, or "stories"
                        mailed to him for use in his talks, books,
                        and EK publications.

                        prometheus wrote:

                        Hello Ingrid and All,
                        Yes, I know Bettine Clemen (Ware) too.
                        I didn't know that about ECKists getting
                        several initiations in one day. Was that
                        during Paul's reign, or Darwin's or both?
                        I know that Klemp would never do that...
                        he's too stingy! And, HK's RESA hierarchy
                        can't deal with higher ranking H.I.s
                        residing within their Satsangs. Although,
                        Bob Lawton (Klemp's former body guard)
                        is both an 8th and a RESA. That's the only
                        exception, but it does set a precedent.

                        IMO- The Glass Ceiling for 7ths is unjustified.
                        Why isn't there a more proportionate number
                        of 8ths to 7ths?

                        And, since there ARE a few ECK 9th Initiates
                        lurking around why wouldn't that initiation
                        be the actual Glass Ceiling, thus, allowing
                        at least 500 8th Initiates.

                        Actually, why does Klemp have these Glass
                        Ceilings? It's because he's a narcissist and
                        doen't want to share. He's a two faced
                        hypocrite! He talks about love and compassion,
                        but Not forgiveness! Thus, he has never
                        mentioned Darwin's (972nd LEM) death
                        to the ECK Membership let alone say
                        something nice about the former ECK
                        Master. That was the "test" that Klemp
                        failed. And when he fails a test like that
                        it means that he, too, has fallen from Grace!
                        His attachment to Power keeps him on the
                        throne.

                        Anyway, If Klemp wanted to he could have
                        promoted two or three initiates to the 12th.
                        Not all 12ths have to be LEMs and not all LEMs
                        have to be Mahantas... right? Sure!

                        And, to insure that these 12ths wouldn't
                        threaten his reign HK could have made them
                        all females. In ECKankar females can't become
                        LEM/Mahantas due to law/science/ tradition
                        or whatever. Klemp is just an old tired ass
                        selfish, mean spirited and fearful fuddy duddy
                        stuck in the past.

                        Klemp's negative behaviour and lack of
                        compassion towards Darwin, and especially
                        his death, is proof that he is both a hypocrite
                        and a fraud. But, this is human/KAL behaviour
                        typical of all religions and their leaders.

                        Unfortunately, ECKists (the most advanced
                        Souls ever, LOL) have tunnel vision and blinders
                        on. They can only focus upon that carrot (the
                        promise of more initiations leading to God-
                        Realization) as they trot along doing Service,
                        Surrendering, HUing, spending money on EK
                        materials and seminars, taking more training,
                        following the Guidelines and acting "as if" the
                        lies of PT and HK are the ultimate truth. Such
                        is religious belief. It may feel good and give
                        you some hope, peace of mind and security,
                        but it's not Reality or Truth! It's just filler...
                        like Klemp's simple-minded redundant books!

                        In truth, all religions and their dogmas are
                        "tests" for the more "advanced" Souls. When
                        one is able to finally see the correlations and
                        the lies and beyond the "group think" then
                        one is able to see with more clarity and discard
                        all religion. The veils of illusion slowly disappear
                        until one can commune privately, one-to-one,
                        with Divine Spirit.

                        Soul doesn't need a LEM or Mahanta or
                        a Master or a priest, or a Pope to intervene
                        or guide them on the Outer or Inner Planes.
                        Of course, all religions (including Eckankar)
                        cannot tolerate such statements. This is
                        heresy! People are executed, even today,
                        by religionists who claim to love God.
                        But, why does God need to be protected?

                        Thus, those religionists who attack us,
                        and the Truth, are ignorant, fearful,
                        weak-minded followers, and are immature
                        Souls.

                        Prometheus

                        ctecvie wrote:
                        Hi Jonathan and all,

                        my husband knew Bettine Clemen personally.
                        She once told him that either she or some people
                        she knew (I'm not sure) got the 3rd, 4th and 5th
                        initiations in one day - one or two in the morning
                        and the last one(s) in the afternoon!

                        At the time they needed a lot of higher initiates
                        as eckankar was still young. Now there are so
                        many HIs that they had to introduce a glass ceiling -
                        I guess that's why initiations are slowed down
                        so much!

                        It's all about administration and money, and power
                        of course ... :-))

                        Ingrid

                        jonathanjohns wrote:
                        >
                        > Prometheus,
                        >
                        > I'm going to add a few "facts" from my personal experience in the 1980-1983
                        time frame to the discussion.
                        >
                        > In your post just before the one I am responding to, you stated that "[Darwin]
                        Gross promoted 1000 Eckists to the 5th!" And then you followed it up with
                        "Ooops! I think that was 500 (not 1000) to the 5th, and around 1983 just before
                        being kicked out by Klemp!"
                        >
                        > I joined Eckanakar around 1979 so I got in on the last few years of Darwin
                        Gross' time as the LEM. I believe it was around 1980/1981 that a member of
                        Eckankar, B.S., told me that he was promoted directly from 3rd initiate to 5th
                        initiate. In other words, he skipped his 4th initiation. This may have occurred
                        later, in the 1983 time frame, I really can't be certain, but this "3 to 5
                        initiation" was definitely done by Darwin.
                        >
                        > Also, I heard about one other person who went from 3rd to 5th. The really
                        interesting thing is that I believe that both of these people had been in
                        Eckankar for less than 10 years. Eckankar started in 1965, so 15-18 years was
                        the absolute maximum time the person who spoke to me was in Eckankar. Plus, he
                        never spoke about Paul Twitchell, and I'm very certain he joined Eckankar after
                        Twitchell's death, making his maximum time in Eckankar about 10-13 years since
                        Darwin started in 1971. I honestly think that 7 to 8 years is a better estimate
                        of the time he was a member of Eckankar. He was only about 25 to 30 years old.
                        >
                        > By the way, regarding the person, B.S., who personally told me about skipping
                        his 4th initiation. I asked him how that happened. He gave me an explanation,
                        but I don't remember what it was. I believe it had something to do with the fact
                        that he progressed spiritually so fast, he didn't need to "pause" at the fourth.
                        But he wasn't arrogant so he probably said something like "the ECK need to
                        progress people really fast."
                        >
                        > It has been mentioned in other posts on this message board that things are a
                        lot different now, with many members of Eckankar going almost 30 years without
                        receiving their 5th initiation.
                        >
                        > Years later, I did hear from a higher HI that Darwin gave a lot of initiations
                        out to people who didn't really deserve them. Of course, during the time when
                        Darwin was the LEM, whatever he did or didn't do was 100% accepted by Eckankar's
                        membership, but after he was kicked out, everything Darwin did or didn't do was
                        automatically suspect if not completely wrong.
                        >
                        > Jonathan


                      • prometheus_973
                        Hello Ed and All, Now that my memory of this has been refreshed I do recall Klemp mentioning people in Africa being promoted rapidly due to the need for EK
                        Message 11 of 17 , Feb 2, 2010
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                          Hello Ed and All,
                          Now that my memory of this has been
                          refreshed I do recall Klemp mentioning
                          people in Africa being promoted rapidly
                          due to the need for EK Leaders. I had
                          no idea as to how it was being done
                          and that initiations were being skipped!
                          HK would (and still) always say how
                          advanced and natural the Africans' beliefs
                          were. But, from what I've heard, there's
                          a lot of superstition, folk lore, and other
                          beliefs mixed in with the EK teachings.

                          Ed, can you share or elaborate on this?

                          Apparently HK's policy of this skipping
                          of initiations was a sin of omission on
                          Klemp's part. He knew that other EKists
                          wouldn't feel comfortable with this tactic.
                          HK never shared these details with the
                          membership. I guess that the general
                          membership didn't need to know how
                          he was conducting business since he
                          doesn't have to report to anyone for his
                          actions... like the Pope.

                          It just goes to show that the EK Initiations
                          can be manipulated for physical worldly
                          gains... more sales leaders.

                          It is hypocritical of Klemp to bring up
                          the fact that Paul promoted people
                          very rapidly to Higher Initiations due
                          to need when Eckankar was in the
                          early stages. Darwin did the same thing
                          early on and was never criticized for it.
                          When DG's and HK's conflict, in 1983,
                          was coming to a head Darwin promoted
                          500 EKists to the 5th initiation. The
                          problem was really with Klemp's ego.
                          Instead, Klemp made Darwin look like
                          the bad guy on this, too, because of
                          the other things that had taken place.

                          However, as I said before, IF Darwin
                          really was a Black Magician, as the nasty
                          Klempster claimed, that would mean
                          that those 500 EKists DG gave the 5th
                          to had actually been initiated, unknowingly,
                          into the Black Arts. Klemp claimed, at
                          the time, that viewing Darwin's picture
                          or reading his words could have psychic
                          influence over ECKists. Where was Klemp's
                          protection? This is why ECKists don't
                          usually read outside (unapproved) books
                          and info. Klemp has scared them from
                          doing so. But, where's the "protection"
                          from such things? Catch-22 again!

                          Anyway, let's not forget Klemp promoting
                          people in Europe rapidly as well. Plus,
                          after the schism in 1983-1984 Klemp
                          had gaps in EK leadership, due to H.I.s
                          leaving to follow Darwin, and thus
                          promoted his own group of H.I.s as fill-ins.
                          Once again, the promotions (initiations)
                          had nothing to do with Spiritual Growth.

                          Yes, it's interesting to discuss these
                          remembrances and piece together
                          information about the EK Initiations.
                          Klemp's cover-up and omissions on
                          his own policy of skipping initiations
                          is more proof that the initiations aren't
                          what ECKists imagine them to be.
                          The initiations are devalued when
                          the truth about how and why they
                          are manipulated becomes known.

                          Of course, the true blue EKist will
                          deny the truth. They need Eckankar
                          (religion) and will rationalize. They
                          turn a blind-eye to facts and to
                          critical thinking. They want to and
                          need to believe in Eckankar because
                          they don't have a replacement belief.
                          Also, Eckankar is convenient and like
                          all religions it "answers" our questions
                          with dogma that seems to make sense
                          at times. And, the promises (imaginings)
                          and dreams seem better than what other
                          religions seem to teach and offer. But,
                          that never ending "Service/Sales" crap
                          is the real turnoff! Well actually, Klemp
                          promoting his younger looking image
                          in "Tips for ECK Study" and on "The
                          Wisdom Notes" page is a real turn-off!
                          Such vanity!

                          Prometheus

                          Ed Kusi wrote:

                          Hi All,
                          This 3-5th,and even 2-5th happened in
                          Africa too. | personally know five HIs in
                          one country who were jumped from 2nd
                          and 3rd to the 5th Initiation. It happened
                          in Darwin's time and the reasons given
                          were as already mentioned in related posts.

                          Pretujari

                          prometheus wrote:

                          Hello All,
                          I just remembered something that
                          I heard back in the 80s from a
                          member of Klemp's EK Spiritual Council.
                          This 8th said that Harold needed to
                          make more H.I.s in Europe and that
                          he was making exceptions out of
                          necessity. And, HK had promoted
                          one person (a man), in Eastern Europe,
                          to the 9th. I never knew why this
                          9th initiation thing was/is such a
                          big secret. It's probably because
                          HK doesn't want to build up any
                          more expectations for those higher
                          initiations anymore than he has
                          already. That's why the "imagination"
                          pacifier is pushed onto H.I.s.

                          The only Catch to getting and keeping
                          the 9th lies with that individual Not telling
                          he/she is a 9th! However, this doesn't
                          prevent Klemp from sharing this info
                          with the membership. Twit more than
                          likely started the "no tell" rule because
                          he didn't want others to find out who
                          he had promoted, behind the backs
                          of his Spiritual Council, and be jealous.
                          Gail was probably a 9th as is Joan!

                          However, this "no tell" rule has been
                          expanded. No ECKists are supposed
                          to discuss (gossip about) the Ninth
                          Initiation openly.This is one reason
                          Klemp put this into the Masters 4 Discourse.
                          He got the speculation about the 9th
                          out of the way and at the same time
                          prevented any discussion of the matter
                          outside of The Master's 4 Satsang Class.
                          No ECKists are to discuss their discourses
                          outside of their Satsang Class! Plus,
                          Klemp has eliminated any other discussion,
                          second guessing, or questions and
                          speculation by referring to such as "gossip."
                          If any ECKist is reported for "gossiping"
                          any future initiations will be put on
                          hold. This is a fact that most long-time
                          H.I.s are well aware of. This is just another
                          fear tactic that Klemp uses to control his
                          flock and to keep them on task and sell
                          Eckankar! if Klemp had any true powers
                          or divine insight he wouldn't need his
                          spies, or the RESA police, or "stories"
                          mailed to him for use in his talks, books,
                          and EK publications.

                          prometheus wrote:

                          Hello Ingrid and All,
                          Yes, I know Bettine Clemen (Ware) too.
                          I didn't know that about ECKists getting
                          several initiations in one day. Was that
                          during Paul's reign, or Darwin's or both?
                          I know that Klemp would never do that...
                          he's too stingy! And, HK's RESA hierarchy
                          can't deal with higher ranking H.I.s
                          residing within their Satsangs. Although,
                          Bob Lawton (Klemp's former body guard)
                          is both an 8th and a RESA. That's the only
                          exception, but it does set a precedent.

                          IMO- The Glass Ceiling for 7ths is unjustified.
                          Why isn't there a more proportionate number
                          of 8ths to 7ths?

                          And, since there ARE a few ECK 9th Initiates
                          lurking around why wouldn't that initiation
                          be the actual Glass Ceiling, thus, allowing
                          at least 500 8th Initiates.

                          Actually, why does Klemp have these Glass
                          Ceilings? It's because he's a narcissist and
                          doen't want to share. He's a two faced
                          hypocrite! He talks about love and compassion,
                          but Not forgiveness! Thus, he has never
                          mentioned Darwin's (972nd LEM) death
                          to the ECK Membership let alone say
                          something nice about the former ECK
                          Master. That was the "test" that Klemp
                          failed. And when he fails a test like that
                          it means that he, too, has fallen from Grace!
                          His attachment to Power keeps him on the
                          throne.

                          Anyway, If Klemp wanted to he could have
                          promoted two or three initiates to the 12th.
                          Not all 12ths have to be LEMs and not all LEMs
                          have to be Mahantas... right? Sure!

                          And, to insure that these 12ths wouldn't
                          threaten his reign HK could have made them
                          all females. In ECKankar females can't become
                          LEM/Mahantas due to law/science/ tradition
                          or whatever. Klemp is just an old tired ass
                          selfish, mean spirited and fearful fuddy duddy
                          stuck in the past.

                          Klemp's negative behaviour and lack of
                          compassion towards Darwin, and especially
                          his death, is proof that he is both a hypocrite
                          and a fraud. But, this is human/KAL behaviour
                          typical of all religions and their leaders.

                          Unfortunately, ECKists (the most advanced
                          Souls ever, LOL) have tunnel vision and blinders
                          on. They can only focus upon that carrot (the
                          promise of more initiations leading to God-
                          Realization) as they trot along doing Service,
                          Surrendering, HUing, spending money on EK
                          materials and seminars, taking more training,
                          following the Guidelines and acting "as if" the
                          lies of PT and HK are the ultimate truth. Such
                          is religious belief. It may feel good and give
                          you some hope, peace of mind and security,
                          but it's not Reality or Truth! It's just filler...
                          like Klemp's simple-minded redundant books!

                          In truth, all religions and their dogmas are
                          "tests" for the more "advanced" Souls. When
                          one is able to finally see the correlations and
                          the lies and beyond the "group think" then
                          one is able to see with more clarity and discard
                          all religion. The veils of illusion slowly disappear
                          until one can commune privately, one-to-one,
                          with Divine Spirit.

                          Soul doesn't need a LEM or Mahanta or
                          a Master or a priest, or a Pope to intervene
                          or guide them on the Outer or Inner Planes.
                          Of course, all religions (including Eckankar)
                          cannot tolerate such statements. This is
                          heresy! People are executed, even today,
                          by religionists who claim to love God.
                          But, why does God need to be protected?

                          Thus, those religionists who attack us,
                          and the Truth, are ignorant, fearful,
                          weak-minded followers, and are immature
                          Souls.

                          Prometheus

                          ctecvie wrote:
                          Hi Jonathan and all,

                          my husband knew Bettine Clemen personally.
                          She once told him that either she or some people
                          she knew (I'm not sure) got the 3rd, 4th and 5th
                          initiations in one day - one or two in the morning
                          and the last one(s) in the afternoon!

                          At the time they needed a lot of higher initiates
                          as eckankar was still young. Now there are so
                          many HIs that they had to introduce a glass ceiling -
                          I guess that's why initiations are slowed down
                          so much!

                          It's all about administration and money, and power
                          of course ... :-))

                          Ingrid

                          jonathanjohns wrote:
                          >
                          > Prometheus,
                          >
                          > I'm going to add a few "facts" from my personal experience in the 1980-1983
                          time frame to the discussion.
                          >
                          > In your post just before the one I am responding to, you stated that "[Darwin]
                          Gross promoted 1000 Eckists to the 5th!" And then you followed it up with
                          "Ooops! I think that was 500 (not 1000) to the 5th, and around 1983 just before
                          being kicked out by Klemp!"
                          >
                          > I joined Eckanakar around 1979 so I got in on the last few years of Darwin
                          Gross' time as the LEM. I believe it was around 1980/1981 that a member of
                          Eckankar, B.S., told me that he was promoted directly from 3rd initiate to 5th
                          initiate. In other words, he skipped his 4th initiation. This may have occurred
                          later, in the 1983 time frame, I really can't be certain, but this "3 to 5
                          initiation" was definitely done by Darwin.
                          >
                          > Also, I heard about one other person who went from 3rd to 5th. The really
                          interesting thing is that I believe that both of these people had been in
                          Eckankar for less than 10 years. Eckankar started in 1965, so 15-18 years was
                          the absolute maximum time the person who spoke to me was in Eckankar. Plus, he
                          never spoke about Paul Twitchell, and I'm very certain he joined Eckankar after
                          Twitchell's death, making his maximum time in Eckankar about 10-13 years since
                          Darwin started in 1971. I honestly think that 7 to 8 years is a better estimate
                          of the time he was a member of Eckankar. He was only about 25 to 30 years old.
                          >
                          > By the way, regarding the person, B.S., who personally told me about skipping
                          his 4th initiation. I asked him how that happened. He gave me an explanation,
                          but I don't remember what it was. I believe it had something to do with the fact
                          that he progressed spiritually so fast, he didn't need to "pause" at the fourth.
                          But he wasn't arrogant so he probably said something like "the ECK need to
                          progress people really fast."
                          >
                          > It has been mentioned in other posts on this message board that things are a
                          lot different now, with many members of Eckankar going almost 30 years without
                          receiving their 5th initiation.
                          >
                          > Years later, I did hear from a higher HI that Darwin gave a lot of initiations
                          out to people who didn't really deserve them. Of course, during the time when
                          Darwin was the LEM, whatever he did or didn't do was 100% accepted by Eckankar's
                          membership, but after he was kicked out, everything Darwin did or didn't do was
                          automatically suspect if not completely wrong.
                          >
                          > Jonathan
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