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Re: Klemp's Vanity - His Wisdom Notes and EK Brochure Photo

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  • prometheus_973
    You re right! Klemp has said that, Jupiter was the Mahanta Consciousness as it appeared to the Romans, or as it appears to EKists via the LEM! BTW- The
    Message 1 of 21 , Dec 21, 2009
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      You're right! Klemp has said that, "Jupiter
      was the 'Mahanta Consciousness' as it appeared
      to the Romans," or "as it appears" to EKists
      via the LEM!

      BTW- The term you were probably looking for
      is: "Adi-Mahanta. The primordial Mahanta. The
      line of Mastership begun with RAMA, the first
      world Savior, which has been handed down through
      the centuries by the ECK Masters via Oral Secret
      Teachings to those who were Initiated into the
      Order of the Vairagi." (EK Lexicon, 1998, pg. 3)

      This is interesting because this same "Rama"
      is an Indian God who HK claims "brought the
      ECK to India and later to the Aryans, the Fifth
      Root Race." So, the First Mahanta only came
      on-the-scene during the time of the Fifth Root
      Race. And, this title and Consciousness was created
      by the Vairagi Masters and not by Sugmad directly
      (pg.172).

      Now, if someone were to look up "Aryans" in
      HK's 1998 EK Lexicon they would see that this
      is the current ruling race. BTW- "RAMA" was not
      listed as being a Mahanta in the EK Lexicon...
      only a LEM. Why wouldn't Klemp list him as
      a (Full) Mahanta? Maybe he's more detailed in
      the new EK Lexicon and has done another
      Tweak (reedit).

      However, the truth is that Twitchell created
      Eckankar's Mahanta circa Jan. 1, 1969. And,
      "Mahanta" actually means "monastery head."
      Marman and many other EKists know this, but
      for Eckankar to work as a belief system one
      has to have "faith" and toss reason aside! This
      is how religions work... No Thinking is needed!

      Prometheus




      etznab wrote:

      The words "as it appeared to" are interesting to me
      in those definitions for "mahanta consciousness".

      This suggests to me that the "M.C." can appear to
      people under so many different forms. Like Jesus,
      Krishna, Jupiter, etc.

      Also interesting was how Krishna was described in
      somewhat negative terms by both Julian Johnson &
      Paul Twitchell. At other times the description is not
      so negative.

      In about the 1970s though, Paul appears to elaborate
      further about "mahanta". He describes the "historical"
      and "eternal" mahantas. I believe. There was a third
      in the group (trinity) as well.

      Perhaps Paul Twitchell, Darwin Gross and Harold K.
      fit into the category of "historical" mahanta? (Right
      along there with Jesus, Jupiter and Krishna, etc.?)

      Of course some of those characters are composed
      of myths and the literal history dubious and far from
      reality in some places. IMO.

      BTW, I see no entry for "Eternal Mahanta" and / or
      "Historical Mahanta" in Harold Klemp & Eckankar's
      Lexicon. I don't believe they have an entry in Paul T.
      Eckankar dictionary either.

      I believe the Eckankar dictionary came out in 1973
      and after Paul Twitchell was already dead. However,
      I believe it was in Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad (1970?) that
      Paul elaborated on "mahanta". I will have to check
      to see whether Darwin Gross or Harold Klemp wrote
      about eternal, or historical mahantas and the reason
      for illustrating them.

      Etznab


      prometheus wrote:
      You make some good points Etznab.
      I would say that the Roman God Jupiter
      was an Astral Plane God that was created
      by the Romans. Then again, I think that
      all of those Gods that religions worship
      have been created by men. Is it no wonder,
      then, that in PT's Eckankar Dictionary
      and in Klemp's 1998 EK Lexicon that they
      both state that the Roman God "Jupiter
      was the Mahanta Consciousness to the
      Romans." Thus, by definition, the Mahanta
      is also a 2nd Plane God and is, therefore,
      of the Astral Plane of Consciousness which
      is ruled by KAL (Satan, devil).

      Prometheus

      etznab wrote:

      rometheus,

      I believe the term "mahanta consciousness"
      evolved over time according to descriptions
      given to it via Eckankar. Like, what was it?
      1969 before Paul mentioned "mahanta" in
      a wisdom note and The Flute of God? The
      fuller descriptions of L.E.M. & Mahanta did
      not appear until the last couple years in the
      life of Paul Twitchell when he set out to ex-
      plain them in the Shariyat books, I believe.
      1970-1971?

      In some earlier books with Rebazar Tarzs
      I don't know that the word "mahanta" was
      even given much mention, if at all. I think
      the term "spiritual traveler" was mentioned
      more.

      Also, I have to consider the appearance in
      Paul T's early dictionary for the term, and
      where so many people (some legendary)
      from history were said to be the mahanta
      consciousness as vehicle for the Sugmad
      as it appeared to .... (in so many words),
      etc.

      Jesus and Krishna were both mentioned.
      And yet, Jesus is generally understood -
      in Eckankar history - to have been a 2nd
      initiate only.

      So what initiation level is the "mahanta
      consciousness"? I couldn't tell you. All I
      can say (at this point) is the definitions
      have apparently evolved over the years. I
      believe that when the teachings became
      a religion in July 1970 that "mahanta" &
      L.E.M. merged to become identified as
      the same thing around that time. Since I
      suspect Eckankar had to be defined for
      legal purposes and one of the things they
      ask you (IMO) is: What is the title of the
      person in charge & who is that person?

      This is speculation on my part. Paul did
      mention at least 3 "levels" of Mahanta -
      I believe - in the Shariyat. Including the
      "Eternal Mahanta" and "Historical Maha-
      anta". All of these merged into the head
      of the religion and organization of Eck-
      ankar at some point, if you ask me. It is
      very hard for the organization to separate
      them from the leader of Eckankar, IMO,
      as that might suggest the physical body,
      the vehicle and leader of Eckankar is but
      a limited form of "highest consciousness".
      Remember the last part for the definition
      for Mahanta Consciousnes used to be:

      "[....] a state of God consciousness which
      is beyond the titles given in religions which
      designate states of consciousness; the
      highest of all states of consciousness."

      [See: Paul Twitchell Dictionary]

      It means not so much of anything to me
      what appears beside the definition(s) for
      "mahanta" today unless I can prove that
      information to be true. I think Paul said &
      wrote a lot of stuff. I also think he exagg-
      erated in some places. Besides that I do
      not see how a highest state of conscious-
      ness can be identified with a human and
      limited vehicle. I'll give you an example.
      Suppose a leader of Eckankar has / had
      a physical disability of some kind. Even
      suppose a leader died. How can human
      beings limited by the physical senses &
      human mortality equate with a "highest
      state of consciousness"? Or, the highest?
      Especially one such as called "Eternal
      Mahanta" present from the beginning of
      time?

      Some things (including the highest of all
      states of consciousness) became at one
      point identified with a single human being,
      IMO. This is what I suspect, at least.

      Etznab

      prometheus wrote:
      Hello Etznab,
      You said, "Wasn't the far ancient past
      like some kind of "Golden Age" anyway?
      Compared to today?"

      I don't think so, but it's all relevant to
      who you are and where you are and
      when you were there, as well as, one's
      state of mind. Some people are experiencing
      the "Golden Age" now while others have
      experienced their "Golden Age" in a past
      lifetime. It doesn't necessarily have to
      involve the consciousness of world society...
      only yours and from your perspective.
      All else is illusion and a test for Soul.
      However, the knowledge of true
      history is an aide for us to expand our
      current awareness and to help made
      it better for those who come after us.

      "Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
      truth escape us? How might that have happ-
      ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
      in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
      was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
      untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
      fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
      ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
      blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
      as literally true."

      One can look at different stages and timeframes
      of any society and see where the past was
      better, in some areas, and worse in other
      areas.

      Censorship has always been a control tactic
      used by those in power and how it's used has
      varied. ECKankar has censorship too, and most
      H.I.s know what many of the boundaries are.
      Why censorship is condoned is related to having
      an "EK membership card." One has to follow
      the rules and be a part of the herd. That's why
      many H.I.s turn a blind-eye and deaf-ear to
      most of it in order to have ECKankar work for
      them as it is with any religious belief system.
      Blind Faith, Narrow Thinking, and the constant
      use of the Imagination are key for EK to "work."

      And, after all, Why doesn't Klemp have PT's
      historic book "Difficulties Of Becoming The
      Living ECK Master" reprinted by ECKankar?
      It's because Klemp can't handle the truth
      that it would reveal nor be able to deal with
      the questions and doubt that would ensue.
      Thus, we have censorship which is a negative
      effect caused by Klemp's negative (lower
      KAL plane) fears and deceit!

      Prometheus

      etznab wrote:
      [....] Even in some of the temples people employed
      inventions for the manifestation of apparent miracles.
      What they got in return were donations. Of course,
      they didn't tell people the real source of the miracles.
      Otherwise donations might become less. [....]"

      Something from the description of the movie I saw
      where it documented various forms of deception that
      were employed to make miracles appear to happen
      using different forms of technology. This is where it
      appears that science was used to promote ideas of
      miracle-working gods existing behind the scenes. It
      was a perversion of not only religion, but of science
      as well. In my opinion:

      "Set firmly at the intersection of religion, science
      and commerce, the latest episode of ANCIENT
      DISCOVERIES travels to Rome and Greece to
      explore the commissioning, fabrication and pre-
      sentation of marvels meant to instill awe and draw
      hordes of deep-pocketed devotees. You will be
      amazed to learn how the greatest minds of the age
      were turned to the construction of what were little
      more than parlor tricks, albeit enormously sophist-
      icated and impressive ones."

      http://shop.history.com/detail.php?p=69989&ecid=SEO-0000046&pa=SEO-SSP

      I believe that program appeared on the History
      Channel some time back.

      Add to this the fact people have fabricated even
      ancient artifacts to frauduently propagate church
      history, have told stories that were mythological
      and / or symbolic - but accepted as literal truth,
      used teachings and quotes from the past which
      were fragmentary, little understood, and / or in a
      language nobody today completely understands,
      etc., and I see ample reason to be skeptical. To
      investigate, examine and even question "outer"
      forms of teachings - from science to religion.

      Today it appears ironic how religion and science
      are apparently divided, when many have argued
      it was not always the case. Col. James Church-
      ward speaking about "religion" in Lemuria gives
      an opinion that religion was described in terms
      a child could understand. Also, that religion and
      science were not two separate things in the very
      beginning. In fact, it is my belief, religion was
      described in "scientific" terms then because the
      people knew how both were connected.

      So, when science today is used to investigate,
      examine and, in some cases expose religious
      fraud I think it helps to remember how science
      was not always the record of ignorance about
      how things work that is in existence today.

      And, in my opinion, some people from earlier
      times may have been much more advanced,
      not less advanced (generally), compared with
      people living today. Looking at remains of the
      past through a modern (ignorant of the past)
      lens and portraying them as less civilized,
      less knowledgeable and less wise is (IMO) a
      major insult to history. I'm talking particularly
      about the ancient and far ancient past. Times
      when monuments were constructed and tech-
      nology existed that people today are still try-
      ing to fathom.

      Wasn't the far ancient past like some kind of
      "Golden Age" anyway? Compared to today?
      Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
      truth escape us? How might that have happ-
      ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
      in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
      was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
      untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
      fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
      ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
      blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
      as literally true.

      Etznab
    • prometheus_973
      Hello All, FIRST- Let s move on from the ECK chela nut/fanatic that s been sending out negative emails to ESA site members. We all know that as above, so
      Message 2 of 21 , Jan 6, 2010
      • 0 Attachment
        Hello All,
        FIRST- Let's move on from the ECK
        chela nut/fanatic that's been sending
        out negative emails to ESA site members.
        We all know that "as above, so below"
        is a direct factor and cause of his imbalance.

        ******
        You're right Etznab! Klemp has said that,
        "Jupiter was the 'Mahanta Consciousness'
        as it appeared to the Romans," or "as it
        appears" to EKists via the LEM!

        BTW- The term you were probably looking for
        is: "Adi-Mahanta. The primordial Mahanta. The
        line of Mastership begun with RAMA, the first
        world Savior, which has been handed down through
        the centuries by the ECK Masters via Oral Secret
        Teachings to those who were Initiated into the
        Order of the Vairagi." (EK Lexicon, 1998, pg. 3)

        This is interesting because this same "Rama"
        is an Indian God who HK claims "brought the
        ECK to India and later to the Aryans, the Fifth
        Root Race." So, the First Mahanta only came
        on-the-scene during the time of the Fifth Root
        Race. And, this title and Consciousness was created
        by the Vairagi Masters and not by Sugmad directly
        (pg.172).

        Now, if someone were to look up "Aryans" in
        HK's 1998 EK Lexicon they would see that this
        is the current ruling race. BTW- "RAMA" was not
        listed as being a Mahanta in the EK Lexicon...
        only a LEM. Why wouldn't Klemp list him as
        a (Full) Mahanta? Maybe he's more detailed in
        the new EK Lexicon and has done another
        Tweak (reedit).

        However, the truth is that Twitchell created
        Eckankar's Mahanta circa Jan. 1, 1969. And,
        "Mahanta" actually means "monastery head."
        Marman and many other EKists know this, but
        for Eckankar to work as a belief system one
        has to have "faith" and toss reason aside! This
        is how religions work... No Thinking is needed!

        Prometheus




        etznab wrote:

        The words "as it appeared to" are interesting to me
        in those definitions for "mahanta consciousness".

        This suggests to me that the "M.C." can appear to
        people under so many different forms. Like Jesus,
        Krishna, Jupiter, etc.

        Also interesting was how Krishna was described in
        somewhat negative terms by both Julian Johnson &
        Paul Twitchell. At other times the description is not
        so negative.

        In about the 1970s though, Paul appears to elaborate
        further about "mahanta". He describes the "historical"
        and "eternal" mahantas. I believe. There was a third
        in the group (trinity) as well.

        Perhaps Paul Twitchell, Darwin Gross and Harold K.
        fit into the category of "historical" mahanta? (Right
        along there with Jesus, Jupiter and Krishna, etc.?)

        Of course some of those characters are composed
        of myths and the literal history dubious and far from
        reality in some places. IMO.

        BTW, I see no entry for "Eternal Mahanta" and / or
        "Historical Mahanta" in Harold Klemp & Eckankar's
        Lexicon. I don't believe they have an entry in Paul T.
        Eckankar dictionary either.

        I believe the Eckankar dictionary came out in 1973
        and after Paul Twitchell was already dead. However,
        I believe it was in Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad (1970?) that
        Paul elaborated on "mahanta". I will have to check
        to see whether Darwin Gross or Harold Klemp wrote
        about eternal, or historical mahantas and the reason
        for illustrating them.

        Etznab


        prometheus wrote:
        You make some good points Etznab.
        I would say that the Roman God Jupiter
        was an Astral Plane God that was created
        by the Romans. Then again, I think that
        all of those Gods that religions worship
        have been created by men. Is it no wonder,
        then, that in PT's Eckankar Dictionary
        and in Klemp's 1998 EK Lexicon that they
        both state that the Roman God "Jupiter
        was the Mahanta Consciousness to the
        Romans." Thus, by definition, the Mahanta
        is also a 2nd Plane God and is, therefore,
        of the Astral Plane of Consciousness which
        is ruled by KAL (Satan, devil).

        Prometheus

        etznab wrote:

        rometheus,

        I believe the term "mahanta consciousness"
        evolved over time according to descriptions
        given to it via Eckankar. Like, what was it?
        1969 before Paul mentioned "mahanta" in
        a wisdom note and The Flute of God? The
        fuller descriptions of L.E.M. & Mahanta did
        not appear until the last couple years in the
        life of Paul Twitchell when he set out to ex-
        plain them in the Shariyat books, I believe.
        1970-1971?

        In some earlier books with Rebazar Tarzs
        I don't know that the word "mahanta" was
        even given much mention, if at all. I think
        the term "spiritual traveler" was mentioned
        more.

        Also, I have to consider the appearance in
        Paul T's early dictionary for the term, and
        where so many people (some legendary)
        from history were said to be the mahanta
        consciousness as vehicle for the Sugmad
        as it appeared to .... (in so many words),
        etc.

        Jesus and Krishna were both mentioned.
        And yet, Jesus is generally understood -
        in Eckankar history - to have been a 2nd
        initiate only.

        So what initiation level is the "mahanta
        consciousness"? I couldn't tell you. All I
        can say (at this point) is the definitions
        have apparently evolved over the years. I
        believe that when the teachings became
        a religion in July 1970 that "mahanta" &
        L.E.M. merged to become identified as
        the same thing around that time. Since I
        suspect Eckankar had to be defined for
        legal purposes and one of the things they
        ask you (IMO) is: What is the title of the
        person in charge & who is that person?

        This is speculation on my part. Paul did
        mention at least 3 "levels" of Mahanta -
        I believe - in the Shariyat. Including the
        "Eternal Mahanta" and "Historical Maha-
        anta". All of these merged into the head
        of the religion and organization of Eck-
        ankar at some point, if you ask me. It is
        very hard for the organization to separate
        them from the leader of Eckankar, IMO,
        as that might suggest the physical body,
        the vehicle and leader of Eckankar is but
        a limited form of "highest consciousness".
        Remember the last part for the definition
        for Mahanta Consciousnes used to be:

        "[....] a state of God consciousness which
        is beyond the titles given in religions which
        designate states of consciousness; the
        highest of all states of consciousness."

        [See: Paul Twitchell Dictionary]

        It means not so much of anything to me
        what appears beside the definition(s) for
        "mahanta" today unless I can prove that
        information to be true. I think Paul said &
        wrote a lot of stuff. I also think he exagg-
        erated in some places. Besides that I do
        not see how a highest state of conscious-
        ness can be identified with a human and
        limited vehicle. I'll give you an example.
        Suppose a leader of Eckankar has / had
        a physical disability of some kind. Even
        suppose a leader died. How can human
        beings limited by the physical senses &
        human mortality equate with a "highest
        state of consciousness"? Or, the highest?
        Especially one such as called "Eternal
        Mahanta" present from the beginning of
        time?

        Some things (including the highest of all
        states of consciousness) became at one
        point identified with a single human being,
        IMO. This is what I suspect, at least.

        Etznab

        prometheus wrote:
        Hello Etznab,
        You said, "Wasn't the far ancient past
        like some kind of "Golden Age" anyway?
        Compared to today?"

        I don't think so, but it's all relevant to
        who you are and where you are and
        when you were there, as well as, one's
        state of mind. Some people are experiencing
        the "Golden Age" now while others have
        experienced their "Golden Age" in a past
        lifetime. It doesn't necessarily have to
        involve the consciousness of world society...
        only yours and from your perspective.
        All else is illusion and a test for Soul.
        However, the knowledge of true
        history is an aide for us to expand our
        current awareness and to help made
        it better for those who come after us.

        "Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
        truth escape us? How might that have happ-
        ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
        in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
        was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
        untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
        fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
        ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
        blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
        as literally true."

        One can look at different stages and timeframes
        of any society and see where the past was
        better, in some areas, and worse in other
        areas.

        Censorship has always been a control tactic
        used by those in power and how it's used has
        varied. ECKankar has censorship too, and most
        H.I.s know what many of the boundaries are.
        Why censorship is condoned is related to having
        an "EK membership card." One has to follow
        the rules and be a part of the herd. That's why
        many H.I.s turn a blind-eye and deaf-ear to
        most of it in order to have ECKankar work for
        them as it is with any religious belief system.
        Blind Faith, Narrow Thinking, and the constant
        use of the Imagination are key for EK to "work."

        And, after all, Why doesn't Klemp have PT's
        historic book "Difficulties Of Becoming The
        Living ECK Master" reprinted by ECKankar?
        It's because Klemp can't handle the truth
        that it would reveal nor be able to deal with
        the questions and doubt that would ensue.
        Thus, we have censorship which is a negative
        effect caused by Klemp's negative (lower
        KAL plane) fears and deceit!

        Prometheus

        etznab wrote:
        [....] Even in some of the temples people employed
        inventions for the manifestation of apparent miracles.
        What they got in return were donations. Of course,
        they didn't tell people the real source of the miracles.
        Otherwise donations might become less. [....]"

        Something from the description of the movie I saw
        where it documented various forms of deception that
        were employed to make miracles appear to happen
        using different forms of technology. This is where it
        appears that science was used to promote ideas of
        miracle-working gods existing behind the scenes. It
        was a perversion of not only religion, but of science
        as well. In my opinion:

        "Set firmly at the intersection of religion, science
        and commerce, the latest episode of ANCIENT
        DISCOVERIES travels to Rome and Greece to
        explore the commissioning, fabrication and pre-
        sentation of marvels meant to instill awe and draw
        hordes of deep-pocketed devotees. You will be
        amazed to learn how the greatest minds of the age
        were turned to the construction of what were little
        more than parlor tricks, albeit enormously sophist-
        icated and impressive ones."

        http://shop.history.com/detail.php?p=69989&ecid=SEO-0000046&pa=SEO-SSP

        I believe that program appeared on the History
        Channel some time back.

        Add to this the fact people have fabricated even
        ancient artifacts to frauduently propagate church
        history, have told stories that were mythological
        and / or symbolic - but accepted as literal truth,
        used teachings and quotes from the past which
        were fragmentary, little understood, and / or in a
        language nobody today completely understands,
        etc., and I see ample reason to be skeptical. To
        investigate, examine and even question "outer"
        forms of teachings - from science to religion.

        Today it appears ironic how religion and science
        are apparently divided, when many have argued
        it was not always the case. Col. James Church-
        ward speaking about "religion" in Lemuria gives
        an opinion that religion was described in terms
        a child could understand. Also, that religion and
        science were not two separate things in the very
        beginning. In fact, it is my belief, religion was
        described in "scientific" terms then because the
        people knew how both were connected.

        So, when science today is used to investigate,
        examine and, in some cases expose religious
        fraud I think it helps to remember how science
        was not always the record of ignorance about
        how things work that is in existence today.

        And, in my opinion, some people from earlier
        times may have been much more advanced,
        not less advanced (generally), compared with
        people living today. Looking at remains of the
        past through a modern (ignorant of the past)
        lens and portraying them as less civilized,
        less knowledgeable and less wise is (IMO) a
        major insult to history. I'm talking particularly
        about the ancient and far ancient past. Times
        when monuments were constructed and tech-
        nology existed that people today are still try-
        ing to fathom.

        Wasn't the far ancient past like some kind of
        "Golden Age" anyway? Compared to today?
        Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
        truth escape us? How might that have happ-
        ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
        in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
        was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
        untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
        fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
        ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
        blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
        as literally true.

        Etznab
      • prometheus_973
        Hello All, This is simply more proof of Eckankar s deceptions. It s come to my attention that Klemp is still using a 10-15 old photo as his Official Photo
        Message 3 of 21 , Nov 3, 2011
        • 0 Attachment
          Hello All,
          This is simply more proof
          of Eckankar's deceptions.

          It's come to my attention
          that Klemp is still using
          a 10-15 old photo as his
          "Official Photo" which is
          to be displayed at ECK
          functions and EK Centers.

          WHY? Really, why is this
          being done?

          Isn't Klemp comfortable
          with his aging?

          On the front page of the
          September, 2011 "The
          Mystic World of ECKankar"
          is a current photo of Klemp.

          However, if one looks at
          the back page where "The
          Wisdom Notes" are given
          there is the older "Official
          Photo" depicting a younger
          looking Klemp.

          Is the real and present day
          photo depicting the Outer
          LEM while the "Official (past)
          Photo" depicting the Inner
          Master/Mahanta? Is that
          Klemp's rationale for this
          subliminal trickery?

          Really, I don't think that this
          issue has ever been addressed
          since ECKists aren't permitted
          to ask such questions without
          risking reprisals by their RESAs
          or via the ESC (Klemp).

          But, in Eckankar, what is reality?
          Is it anything one wants to deny
          and imagine differently as you
          like it?

          This photo switch is simply
          another trick that Klemp uses
          to cloud the minds and reasoning
          abilities of his followers so they
          can feel good about their religion
          of pretend Masters, Initiations,
          and Planes of Consciousness.

          This denial of the obvious is
          why ECKists are comfortable
          and passive sheep and/or are
          chickens in the EK hen house.
          However, on the other hand,
          ECKists are stressed out as
          well.

          ECKists must be Vahanas/
          Missionary's and give Service
          to Klemp (and Lip Service to
          the public) in order to advance
          and/or to maintain their status
          as official spokespersons.

          The Lip Service is when they
          give the "official" presentations
          which omit facts with the guise
          of being "too much spiritual
          food" for the seeker to handle.

          Come on, just tell them how
          long it will probably take them
          to become free of Karma or
          reach the 5th initiation! And,
          how many more years (and
          what's required) it should
          take them to reach the 7th
          initiation. Then tell them
          how long it will be for them
          to reach the 8th initiation...
          maybe the RESA would know
          that answer. LOL!

          Prometheus



          From Dec, 2009:
          Isn't it strange that a "spiritual
          master" (a Mahanta) would still
          be using an outdated photo.
          This shows that Klemp is attached
          to KAL's lower plane influences.
          This is more proof that HK has
          fallen from SUGMAD's Grace (not
          that he ever had it). Still, for some
          ECKists Klemp's youthful appearance
          attachment must be confusing.
          Others simply turn a Blind Eye
          to it all... they like the public
          seeing the younger looking photo.
          It's less embarrassing than the
          real thing. H.I.s, especially, live
          in a state of denial because it's
          comfortable and convenient
          and EK Membership has become
          habitual and ego driven.

          {Note: Annual EK Membership
          is actually required in order to
          receive and keep initiations. The
          reenrolling of one's membership
          must become habitual or risk
          losing the fake connection with
          the Inner via the outer monetary
          membership requirement. Thus,
          EK membership is ego, as well as,
          fear driven.}

          Prometheus
        • Diana Stanley
          maybe he should try botox or a face lift. It would be a miricale that he got his youth back! Diana
          Message 4 of 21 , Nov 4, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            maybe he should try botox or a face lift. It would be a miricale that he got his youth back!
            Diana

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hello All,
            > This is simply more proof
            > of Eckankar's deceptions.
            >
            > It's come to my attention
            > that Klemp is still using
            > a 10-15 old photo as his
            > "Official Photo" which is
            > to be displayed at ECK
            > functions and EK Centers.
            >
            > WHY? Really, why is this
            > being done?
            >
            > Isn't Klemp comfortable
            > with his aging?
            >
            > On the front page of the
            > September, 2011 "The
            > Mystic World of ECKankar"
            > is a current photo of Klemp.
            >
            > However, if one looks at
            > the back page where "The
            > Wisdom Notes" are given
            > there is the older "Official
            > Photo" depicting a younger
            > looking Klemp.
            >
            > Is the real and present day
            > photo depicting the Outer
            > LEM while the "Official (past)
            > Photo" depicting the Inner
            > Master/Mahanta? Is that
            > Klemp's rationale for this
            > subliminal trickery?
            >
            > Really, I don't think that this
            > issue has ever been addressed
            > since ECKists aren't permitted
            > to ask such questions without
            > risking reprisals by their RESAs
            > or via the ESC (Klemp).
            >
            > But, in Eckankar, what is reality?
            > Is it anything one wants to deny
            > and imagine differently as you
            > like it?
            >
            > This photo switch is simply
            > another trick that Klemp uses
            > to cloud the minds and reasoning
            > abilities of his followers so they
            > can feel good about their religion
            > of pretend Masters, Initiations,
            > and Planes of Consciousness.
            >
            > This denial of the obvious is
            > why ECKists are comfortable
            > and passive sheep and/or are
            > chickens in the EK hen house.
            > However, on the other hand,
            > ECKists are stressed out as
            > well.
            >
            > ECKists must be Vahanas/
            > Missionary's and give Service
            > to Klemp (and Lip Service to
            > the public) in order to advance
            > and/or to maintain their status
            > as official spokespersons.
            >
            > The Lip Service is when they
            > give the "official" presentations
            > which omit facts with the guise
            > of being "too much spiritual
            > food" for the seeker to handle.
            >
            > Come on, just tell them how
            > long it will probably take them
            > to become free of Karma or
            > reach the 5th initiation! And,
            > how many more years (and
            > what's required) it should
            > take them to reach the 7th
            > initiation. Then tell them
            > how long it will be for them
            > to reach the 8th initiation...
            > maybe the RESA would know
            > that answer. LOL!
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
            >
            >
            > From Dec, 2009:
            > Isn't it strange that a "spiritual
            > master" (a Mahanta) would still
            > be using an outdated photo.
            > This shows that Klemp is attached
            > to KAL's lower plane influences.
            > This is more proof that HK has
            > fallen from SUGMAD's Grace (not
            > that he ever had it). Still, for some
            > ECKists Klemp's youthful appearance
            > attachment must be confusing.
            > Others simply turn a Blind Eye
            > to it all... they like the public
            > seeing the younger looking photo.
            > It's less embarrassing than the
            > real thing. H.I.s, especially, live
            > in a state of denial because it's
            > comfortable and convenient
            > and EK Membership has become
            > habitual and ego driven.
            >
            > {Note: Annual EK Membership
            > is actually required in order to
            > receive and keep initiations. The
            > reenrolling of one's membership
            > must become habitual or risk
            > losing the fake connection with
            > the Inner via the outer monetary
            > membership requirement. Thus,
            > EK membership is ego, as well as,
            > fear driven.}
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
          • prometheus_973
            Hello Diana and All, At one time Klemp tried contact lens but eventually switched back to glasses. I m told he received some criticism, from H.I.s via chelas,
            Message 5 of 21 , Nov 4, 2011
            • 0 Attachment
              Hello Diana and All,
              At one time Klemp tried
              contact lens but eventually
              switched back to glasses.
              I'm told he received some
              criticism, from H.I.s via
              chelas, that contacts were
              more of a vanity issue than
              a sight/vision issue. ECKists
              can't have their mealy looking
              Mahanta project a fraudulent
              appearance because that
              would indicate other frauds
              might be taking place and
              perpetuated. LOL!

              However, I've also read that
              contacts can offer people
              better vision than glasses,
              but maybe that was just
              a slanted PR story to sell
              a product like Eckankar
              does.

              I'm assuming that this is
              why Klemp won't dye his
              hair or get hair plugs. I
              wonder what else Klemp
              does, or doesn't do, that
              is natural? Boxers, briefs,
              or commando?

              Prometheus

              dianastanley wrote:
              maybe he should try botox
              or a face lift. It would be
              a miricale that he got his
              youth back!
              Diana


              <prometheus wrote:
              >
              > Hello All,
              > This is simply more proof
              > of Eckankar's deceptions.
              >
              > It's come to my attention
              > that Klemp is still using
              > a 10-15 old photo as his
              > "Official Photo" which is
              > to be displayed at ECK
              > functions and EK Centers.
              >
              > WHY? Really, why is this
              > being done?
              >
              > Isn't Klemp comfortable
              > with his aging?
              >
              > On the front page of the
              > September, 2011 "The
              > Mystic World of ECKankar"
              > is a current photo of Klemp.
              >
              > However, if one looks at
              > the back page where "The
              > Wisdom Notes" are given
              > there is the older "Official
              > Photo" depicting a younger
              > looking Klemp.
              >
              > Is the real and present day
              > photo depicting the Outer
              > LEM while the "Official (past)
              > Photo" depicting the Inner
              > Master/Mahanta? Is that
              > Klemp's rationale for this
              > subliminal trickery?
              >
              > Really, I don't think that this
              > issue has ever been addressed
              > since ECKists aren't permitted
              > to ask such questions without
              > risking reprisals by their RESAs
              > or via the ESC (Klemp).
              >
              > But, in Eckankar, what is reality?
              > Is it anything one wants to deny
              > and imagine differently as you
              > like it?
              >
              > This photo switch is simply
              > another trick that Klemp uses
              > to cloud the minds and reasoning
              > abilities of his followers so they
              > can feel good about their religion
              > of pretend Masters, Initiations,
              > and Planes of Consciousness.
              >
              > This denial of the obvious is
              > why ECKists are comfortable
              > and passive sheep and/or are
              > chickens in the EK hen house.
              > However, on the other hand,
              > ECKists are stressed out as
              > well.
              >
              > ECKists must be Vahanas/
              > Missionary's and give Service
              > to Klemp (and Lip Service to
              > the public) in order to advance
              > and/or to maintain their status
              > as official spokespersons.
              >
              > The Lip Service is when they
              > give the "official" presentations
              > which omit facts with the guise
              > of being "too much spiritual
              > food" for the seeker to handle.
              >
              > Come on, just tell them how
              > long it will probably take them
              > to become free of Karma or
              > reach the 5th initiation! And,
              > how many more years (and
              > what's required) it should
              > take them to reach the 7th
              > initiation. Then tell them
              > how long it will be for them
              > to reach the 8th initiation...
              > maybe the RESA would know
              > that answer. LOL!
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
              >
              >
              > From Dec, 2009:
              > Isn't it strange that a "spiritual
              > master" (a Mahanta) would still
              > be using an outdated photo.
              > This shows that Klemp is attached
              > to KAL's lower plane influences.
              > This is more proof that HK has
              > fallen from SUGMAD's Grace (not
              > that he ever had it). Still, for some
              > ECKists Klemp's youthful appearance
              > attachment must be confusing.
              > Others simply turn a Blind Eye
              > to it all... they like the public
              > seeing the younger looking photo.
              > It's less embarrassing than the
              > real thing. H.I.s, especially, live
              > in a state of denial because it's
              > comfortable and convenient
              > and EK Membership has become
              > habitual and ego driven.
              >
              > {Note: Annual EK Membership
              > is actually required in order to
              > receive and keep initiations. The
              > reenrolling of one's membership
              > must become habitual or risk
              > losing the fake connection with
              > the Inner via the outer monetary
              > membership requirement. Thus,
              > EK membership is ego, as well as,
              > fear driven.}
              >
              > Prometheus
            • Diana Stanley
              I don t understand why he cares what he looks like he never hardly ever makes public appearences. Maybe he has a double to do all public pr work!!! Diana
              Message 6 of 21 , Nov 6, 2011
              • 0 Attachment
                I don't understand why he cares what he looks like he never hardly ever makes public appearences. Maybe he has a double to do all public pr work!!!
                Diana



                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hello Diana and All,
                > At one time Klemp tried
                > contact lens but eventually
                > switched back to glasses.
                > I'm told he received some
                > criticism, from H.I.s via
                > chelas, that contacts were
                > more of a vanity issue than
                > a sight/vision issue. ECKists
                > can't have their mealy looking
                > Mahanta project a fraudulent
                > appearance because that
                > would indicate other frauds
                > might be taking place and
                > perpetuated. LOL!
                >
                > However, I've also read that
                > contacts can offer people
                > better vision than glasses,
                > but maybe that was just
                > a slanted PR story to sell
                > a product like Eckankar
                > does.
                >
                > I'm assuming that this is
                > why Klemp won't dye his
                > hair or get hair plugs. I
                > wonder what else Klemp
                > does, or doesn't do, that
                > is natural? Boxers, briefs,
                > or commando?
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
                > dianastanley wrote:
                > maybe he should try botox
                > or a face lift. It would be
                > a miricale that he got his
                > youth back!
                > Diana
                >
                >
                > <prometheus wrote:
                > >
                > > Hello All,
                > > This is simply more proof
                > > of Eckankar's deceptions.
                > >
                > > It's come to my attention
                > > that Klemp is still using
                > > a 10-15 old photo as his
                > > "Official Photo" which is
                > > to be displayed at ECK
                > > functions and EK Centers.
                > >
                > > WHY? Really, why is this
                > > being done?
                > >
                > > Isn't Klemp comfortable
                > > with his aging?
                > >
                > > On the front page of the
                > > September, 2011 "The
                > > Mystic World of ECKankar"
                > > is a current photo of Klemp.
                > >
                > > However, if one looks at
                > > the back page where "The
                > > Wisdom Notes" are given
                > > there is the older "Official
                > > Photo" depicting a younger
                > > looking Klemp.
                > >
                > > Is the real and present day
                > > photo depicting the Outer
                > > LEM while the "Official (past)
                > > Photo" depicting the Inner
                > > Master/Mahanta? Is that
                > > Klemp's rationale for this
                > > subliminal trickery?
                > >
                > > Really, I don't think that this
                > > issue has ever been addressed
                > > since ECKists aren't permitted
                > > to ask such questions without
                > > risking reprisals by their RESAs
                > > or via the ESC (Klemp).
                > >
                > > But, in Eckankar, what is reality?
                > > Is it anything one wants to deny
                > > and imagine differently as you
                > > like it?
                > >
                > > This photo switch is simply
                > > another trick that Klemp uses
                > > to cloud the minds and reasoning
                > > abilities of his followers so they
                > > can feel good about their religion
                > > of pretend Masters, Initiations,
                > > and Planes of Consciousness.
                > >
                > > This denial of the obvious is
                > > why ECKists are comfortable
                > > and passive sheep and/or are
                > > chickens in the EK hen house.
                > > However, on the other hand,
                > > ECKists are stressed out as
                > > well.
                > >
                > > ECKists must be Vahanas/
                > > Missionary's and give Service
                > > to Klemp (and Lip Service to
                > > the public) in order to advance
                > > and/or to maintain their status
                > > as official spokespersons.
                > >
                > > The Lip Service is when they
                > > give the "official" presentations
                > > which omit facts with the guise
                > > of being "too much spiritual
                > > food" for the seeker to handle.
                > >
                > > Come on, just tell them how
                > > long it will probably take them
                > > to become free of Karma or
                > > reach the 5th initiation! And,
                > > how many more years (and
                > > what's required) it should
                > > take them to reach the 7th
                > > initiation. Then tell them
                > > how long it will be for them
                > > to reach the 8th initiation...
                > > maybe the RESA would know
                > > that answer. LOL!
                > >
                > > Prometheus
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > From Dec, 2009:
                > > Isn't it strange that a "spiritual
                > > master" (a Mahanta) would still
                > > be using an outdated photo.
                > > This shows that Klemp is attached
                > > to KAL's lower plane influences.
                > > This is more proof that HK has
                > > fallen from SUGMAD's Grace (not
                > > that he ever had it). Still, for some
                > > ECKists Klemp's youthful appearance
                > > attachment must be confusing.
                > > Others simply turn a Blind Eye
                > > to it all... they like the public
                > > seeing the younger looking photo.
                > > It's less embarrassing than the
                > > real thing. H.I.s, especially, live
                > > in a state of denial because it's
                > > comfortable and convenient
                > > and EK Membership has become
                > > habitual and ego driven.
                > >
                > > {Note: Annual EK Membership
                > > is actually required in order to
                > > receive and keep initiations. The
                > > reenrolling of one's membership
                > > must become habitual or risk
                > > losing the fake connection with
                > > the Inner via the outer monetary
                > > membership requirement. Thus,
                > > EK membership is ego, as well as,
                > > fear driven.}
                > >
                > > Prometheus
                >
              • prometheus_973
                Hello Diana and All, Klemp cares about the more youthful image he s projecting in the PR brochures and his official pic displayed in EK Centers and at Intros
                Message 7 of 21 , Nov 7, 2011
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hello Diana and All,
                  Klemp cares about
                  the more youthful
                  image he's projecting
                  in the PR brochures
                  and his official pic
                  displayed in EK Centers
                  and at Intros because
                  it appeals to younger
                  people more than his
                  old real life image does!

                  Thus, more suckers
                  are attracted to the
                  bait and switch packaging
                  versus the reality which
                  would repel them. LOL!

                  At a Seminar (after
                  seeing Klemp) they
                  simply decide to stay
                  until he gets done talking.
                  Klemp was never too
                  photogenic anyway but
                  now he's really getting
                  pathetic looking... as
                  a Mahanta/God!

                  Really, how can Eckists
                  believe in or talk about
                  the ECK Masters like
                  Rebazar, who are
                  supposedly over 500
                  years old and still maintain
                  a physical body, when
                  Klemp claims to be the
                  greatest and most spiritually
                  advanced Mahanta ever!
                  Yet, he's wasting away!
                  It doesn't make sense if
                  it was true! The truth is
                  there are No ECK Masters
                  and Klemp is a phony!

                  Pretend can be fun and
                  the imagination can make
                  the mundane magical,
                  it's an escape, and it can
                  be used (as lies) to explain
                  things in mythological and
                  unscientific terms because
                  science can't explain it
                  away with concrete analysis
                  and proven facts. Besides,
                  would most people listen?
                  Therefore, the ECK Masters
                  are as imagined as the
                  characters in Harry Potter,
                  or the Lord of the Rings,
                  et al.

                  Thus, if Eckankar was for
                  real Klemp wouldn't be
                  aging and rapidly! He'd
                  look like Rebazar or one
                  of the other portraits of
                  those fake ECK Masters.

                  Funny that the artist who
                  did the latest ECK Master
                  portraits made them look
                  younger than Klemp's real-
                  time current photo (not the
                  embellished portrait)! Just
                  go the eckankar.org and
                  see for yourself! It's comical!

                  Prometheus


                  dianastanley wrote:
                  I don't understand why
                  he cares what he looks
                  like he never hardly ever
                  makes public appearences.
                  Maybe he has a double
                  to do all public pr work!!!
                  Diana




                  <prometheus wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello Diana and All,
                  > At one time Klemp tried
                  > contact lens but eventually
                  > switched back to glasses.
                  > I'm told he received some
                  > criticism, from H.I.s via
                  > chelas, that contacts were
                  > more of a vanity issue than
                  > a sight/vision issue. ECKists
                  > can't have their mealy looking
                  > Mahanta project a fraudulent
                  > appearance because that
                  > would indicate other frauds
                  > might be taking place and
                  > perpetuated. LOL!
                  >
                  > However, I've also read that
                  > contacts can offer people
                  > better vision than glasses,
                  > but maybe that was just
                  > a slanted PR story to sell
                  > a product like Eckankar
                  > does.
                  >
                  > I'm assuming that this is
                  > why Klemp won't dye his
                  > hair or get hair plugs. I
                  > wonder what else Klemp
                  > does, or doesn't do, that
                  > is natural? Boxers, briefs,
                  > or commando?
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                  > dianastanley wrote:
                  > maybe he should try botox
                  > or a face lift. It would be
                  > a miricale that he got his
                  > youth back!
                  > Diana
                  >
                  >
                  > <prometheus wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hello All,
                  > > This is simply more proof
                  > > of Eckankar's deceptions.
                  > >
                  > > It's come to my attention
                  > > that Klemp is still using
                  > > a 10-15 old photo as his
                  > > "Official Photo" which is
                  > > to be displayed at ECK
                  > > functions and EK Centers.
                  > >
                  > > WHY? Really, why is this
                  > > being done?
                  > >
                  > > Isn't Klemp comfortable
                  > > with his aging?
                  > >
                  > > On the front page of the
                  > > September, 2011 "The
                  > > Mystic World of ECKankar"
                  > > is a current photo of Klemp.
                  > >
                  > > However, if one looks at
                  > > the back page where "The
                  > > Wisdom Notes" are given
                  > > there is the older "Official
                  > > Photo" depicting a younger
                  > > looking Klemp.
                  > >
                  > > Is the real and present day
                  > > photo depicting the Outer
                  > > LEM while the "Official (past)
                  > > Photo" depicting the Inner
                  > > Master/Mahanta? Is that
                  > > Klemp's rationale for this
                  > > subliminal trickery?
                  > >
                  > > Really, I don't think that this
                  > > issue has ever been addressed
                  > > since ECKists aren't permitted
                  > > to ask such questions without
                  > > risking reprisals by their RESAs
                  > > or via the ESC (Klemp).
                  > >
                  > > But, in Eckankar, what is reality?
                  > > Is it anything one wants to deny
                  > > and imagine differently as you
                  > > like it?
                  > >
                  > > This photo switch is simply
                  > > another trick that Klemp uses
                  > > to cloud the minds and reasoning
                  > > abilities of his followers so they
                  > > can feel good about their religion
                  > > of pretend Masters, Initiations,
                  > > and Planes of Consciousness.
                  > >
                  > > This denial of the obvious is
                  > > why ECKists are comfortable
                  > > and passive sheep and/or are
                  > > chickens in the EK hen house.
                  > > However, on the other hand,
                  > > ECKists are stressed out as
                  > > well.
                  > >
                  > > ECKists must be Vahanas/
                  > > Missionary's and give Service
                  > > to Klemp (and Lip Service to
                  > > the public) in order to advance
                  > > and/or to maintain their status
                  > > as official spokespersons.
                  > >
                  > > The Lip Service is when they
                  > > give the "official" presentations
                  > > which omit facts with the guise
                  > > of being "too much spiritual
                  > > food" for the seeker to handle.
                  > >
                  > > Come on, just tell them how
                  > > long it will probably take them
                  > > to become free of Karma or
                  > > reach the 5th initiation! And,
                  > > how many more years (and
                  > > what's required) it should
                  > > take them to reach the 7th
                  > > initiation. Then tell them
                  > > how long it will be for them
                  > > to reach the 8th initiation...
                  > > maybe the RESA would know
                  > > that answer. LOL!
                  > >
                  > > Prometheus
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > From Dec, 2009:
                  > > Isn't it strange that a "spiritual
                  > > master" (a Mahanta) would still
                  > > be using an outdated photo.
                  > > This shows that Klemp is attached
                  > > to KAL's lower plane influences.
                  > > This is more proof that HK has
                  > > fallen from SUGMAD's Grace (not
                  > > that he ever had it). Still, for some
                  > > ECKists Klemp's youthful appearance
                  > > attachment must be confusing.
                  > > Others simply turn a Blind Eye
                  > > to it all... they like the public
                  > > seeing the younger looking photo.
                  > > It's less embarrassing than the
                  > > real thing. H.I.s, especially, live
                  > > in a state of denial because it's
                  > > comfortable and convenient
                  > > and EK Membership has become
                  > > habitual and ego driven.
                  > >
                  > > {Note: Annual EK Membership
                  > > is actually required in order to
                  > > receive and keep initiations. The
                  > > reenrolling of one's membership
                  > > must become habitual or risk
                  > > losing the fake connection with
                  > > the Inner via the outer monetary
                  > > membership requirement. Thus,
                  > > EK membership is ego, as well as,
                  > > fear driven.}
                  > >
                  > > Prometheus
                • Diana Stanley
                  Eckankar is being reduced to sillyness. People who are trully seeking spiritual enlightenment will begin to leave. Those that are comfortable with authority
                  Message 8 of 21 , Nov 9, 2011
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Eckankar is being reduced to sillyness. People who are trully seeking spiritual enlightenment will begin to leave. Those that are comfortable with authority and rules and regulations will hang on.
                    Much like the old churches some people feel safe if they are told how to get to heven and avoid hell.
                    I imagin Harold is trying to incorporate the Eck teachings with christian beliefs as that is Harolds background.
                    I am afraid it is a marrage that is doomed to failure. Hopefully sooner than later.
                    Diana

                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hello Diana and All,
                    > Klemp cares about
                    > the more youthful
                    > image he's projecting
                    > in the PR brochures
                    > and his official pic
                    > displayed in EK Centers
                    > and at Intros because
                    > it appeals to younger
                    > people more than his
                    > old real life image does!
                    >
                    > Thus, more suckers
                    > are attracted to the
                    > bait and switch packaging
                    > versus the reality which
                    > would repel them. LOL!
                    >
                    > At a Seminar (after
                    > seeing Klemp) they
                    > simply decide to stay
                    > until he gets done talking.
                    > Klemp was never too
                    > photogenic anyway but
                    > now he's really getting
                    > pathetic looking... as
                    > a Mahanta/God!
                    >
                    > Really, how can Eckists
                    > believe in or talk about
                    > the ECK Masters like
                    > Rebazar, who are
                    > supposedly over 500
                    > years old and still maintain
                    > a physical body, when
                    > Klemp claims to be the
                    > greatest and most spiritually
                    > advanced Mahanta ever!
                    > Yet, he's wasting away!
                    > It doesn't make sense if
                    > it was true! The truth is
                    > there are No ECK Masters
                    > and Klemp is a phony!
                    >
                    > Pretend can be fun and
                    > the imagination can make
                    > the mundane magical,
                    > it's an escape, and it can
                    > be used (as lies) to explain
                    > things in mythological and
                    > unscientific terms because
                    > science can't explain it
                    > away with concrete analysis
                    > and proven facts. Besides,
                    > would most people listen?
                    > Therefore, the ECK Masters
                    > are as imagined as the
                    > characters in Harry Potter,
                    > or the Lord of the Rings,
                    > et al.
                    >
                    > Thus, if Eckankar was for
                    > real Klemp wouldn't be
                    > aging and rapidly! He'd
                    > look like Rebazar or one
                    > of the other portraits of
                    > those fake ECK Masters.
                    >
                    > Funny that the artist who
                    > did the latest ECK Master
                    > portraits made them look
                    > younger than Klemp's real-
                    > time current photo (not the
                    > embellished portrait)! Just
                    > go the eckankar.org and
                    > see for yourself! It's comical!
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    >
                    >
                    > dianastanley wrote:
                    > I don't understand why
                    > he cares what he looks
                    > like he never hardly ever
                    > makes public appearences.
                    > Maybe he has a double
                    > to do all public pr work!!!
                    > Diana
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > <prometheus wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hello Diana and All,
                    > > At one time Klemp tried
                    > > contact lens but eventually
                    > > switched back to glasses.
                    > > I'm told he received some
                    > > criticism, from H.I.s via
                    > > chelas, that contacts were
                    > > more of a vanity issue than
                    > > a sight/vision issue. ECKists
                    > > can't have their mealy looking
                    > > Mahanta project a fraudulent
                    > > appearance because that
                    > > would indicate other frauds
                    > > might be taking place and
                    > > perpetuated. LOL!
                    > >
                    > > However, I've also read that
                    > > contacts can offer people
                    > > better vision than glasses,
                    > > but maybe that was just
                    > > a slanted PR story to sell
                    > > a product like Eckankar
                    > > does.
                    > >
                    > > I'm assuming that this is
                    > > why Klemp won't dye his
                    > > hair or get hair plugs. I
                    > > wonder what else Klemp
                    > > does, or doesn't do, that
                    > > is natural? Boxers, briefs,
                    > > or commando?
                    > >
                    > > Prometheus
                    > >
                    > > dianastanley wrote:
                    > > maybe he should try botox
                    > > or a face lift. It would be
                    > > a miricale that he got his
                    > > youth back!
                    > > Diana
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > <prometheus wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Hello All,
                    > > > This is simply more proof
                    > > > of Eckankar's deceptions.
                    > > >
                    > > > It's come to my attention
                    > > > that Klemp is still using
                    > > > a 10-15 old photo as his
                    > > > "Official Photo" which is
                    > > > to be displayed at ECK
                    > > > functions and EK Centers.
                    > > >
                    > > > WHY? Really, why is this
                    > > > being done?
                    > > >
                    > > > Isn't Klemp comfortable
                    > > > with his aging?
                    > > >
                    > > > On the front page of the
                    > > > September, 2011 "The
                    > > > Mystic World of ECKankar"
                    > > > is a current photo of Klemp.
                    > > >
                    > > > However, if one looks at
                    > > > the back page where "The
                    > > > Wisdom Notes" are given
                    > > > there is the older "Official
                    > > > Photo" depicting a younger
                    > > > looking Klemp.
                    > > >
                    > > > Is the real and present day
                    > > > photo depicting the Outer
                    > > > LEM while the "Official (past)
                    > > > Photo" depicting the Inner
                    > > > Master/Mahanta? Is that
                    > > > Klemp's rationale for this
                    > > > subliminal trickery?
                    > > >
                    > > > Really, I don't think that this
                    > > > issue has ever been addressed
                    > > > since ECKists aren't permitted
                    > > > to ask such questions without
                    > > > risking reprisals by their RESAs
                    > > > or via the ESC (Klemp).
                    > > >
                    > > > But, in Eckankar, what is reality?
                    > > > Is it anything one wants to deny
                    > > > and imagine differently as you
                    > > > like it?
                    > > >
                    > > > This photo switch is simply
                    > > > another trick that Klemp uses
                    > > > to cloud the minds and reasoning
                    > > > abilities of his followers so they
                    > > > can feel good about their religion
                    > > > of pretend Masters, Initiations,
                    > > > and Planes of Consciousness.
                    > > >
                    > > > This denial of the obvious is
                    > > > why ECKists are comfortable
                    > > > and passive sheep and/or are
                    > > > chickens in the EK hen house.
                    > > > However, on the other hand,
                    > > > ECKists are stressed out as
                    > > > well.
                    > > >
                    > > > ECKists must be Vahanas/
                    > > > Missionary's and give Service
                    > > > to Klemp (and Lip Service to
                    > > > the public) in order to advance
                    > > > and/or to maintain their status
                    > > > as official spokespersons.
                    > > >
                    > > > The Lip Service is when they
                    > > > give the "official" presentations
                    > > > which omit facts with the guise
                    > > > of being "too much spiritual
                    > > > food" for the seeker to handle.
                    > > >
                    > > > Come on, just tell them how
                    > > > long it will probably take them
                    > > > to become free of Karma or
                    > > > reach the 5th initiation! And,
                    > > > how many more years (and
                    > > > what's required) it should
                    > > > take them to reach the 7th
                    > > > initiation. Then tell them
                    > > > how long it will be for them
                    > > > to reach the 8th initiation...
                    > > > maybe the RESA would know
                    > > > that answer. LOL!
                    > > >
                    > > > Prometheus
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > From Dec, 2009:
                    > > > Isn't it strange that a "spiritual
                    > > > master" (a Mahanta) would still
                    > > > be using an outdated photo.
                    > > > This shows that Klemp is attached
                    > > > to KAL's lower plane influences.
                    > > > This is more proof that HK has
                    > > > fallen from SUGMAD's Grace (not
                    > > > that he ever had it). Still, for some
                    > > > ECKists Klemp's youthful appearance
                    > > > attachment must be confusing.
                    > > > Others simply turn a Blind Eye
                    > > > to it all... they like the public
                    > > > seeing the younger looking photo.
                    > > > It's less embarrassing than the
                    > > > real thing. H.I.s, especially, live
                    > > > in a state of denial because it's
                    > > > comfortable and convenient
                    > > > and EK Membership has become
                    > > > habitual and ego driven.
                    > > >
                    > > > {Note: Annual EK Membership
                    > > > is actually required in order to
                    > > > receive and keep initiations. The
                    > > > reenrolling of one's membership
                    > > > must become habitual or risk
                    > > > losing the fake connection with
                    > > > the Inner via the outer monetary
                    > > > membership requirement. Thus,
                    > > > EK membership is ego, as well as,
                    > > > fear driven.}
                    > > >
                    > > > Prometheus
                    >
                  • prometheus_973
                    Hello Diana and All, Yes, the silliness began with Twitchell. That s why Gail and Patti were always giggling about good old fuddy-duddy Paul and his conman
                    Message 9 of 21 , Nov 9, 2011
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hello Diana and All,
                      Yes, the silliness began
                      with Twitchell. That's
                      why Gail and Patti were
                      always giggling about
                      good old fuddy-duddy
                      Paul and his conman
                      antics, some, to hide
                      his age [the joke was
                      on them because Paul
                      was older than they
                      thought]. Other embellishments
                      were used to promote
                      himself... and yet this
                      doesn't seem to be a
                      problem for longtime
                      H.I.s. When I found out
                      about the foundation
                      of the EK teachings and
                      the liar Twitchell I just
                      couldn't remain a follower.
                      Truth means too much
                      to me. Ask yourself,
                      "What is Truth?"

                      Klemp is as much the liar
                      as Twitchell. He rationalizes
                      it away by thinking that people
                      need something to believe
                      in and Eckankar gives them
                      something that is, at least,
                      less physically harmful to
                      the world than many other
                      religions. Of course, that's
                      only because Eckankar doesn't
                      have the members, money,
                      and power that other religions
                      have. Other than that it's
                      a fraud and a waste of time.
                      It creates delusional thinking
                      and this inhibits clarity of
                      mind and true, individual,
                      "spiritual" progress.

                      Prometheus



                      "Diana Stanley" wrote:
                      Eckankar is being reduced
                      to sillyness. People who
                      are trully seeking spiritual
                      enlightenment will begin
                      to leave. Those that are
                      comfortable with authority
                      and rules and regulations
                      will hang on.

                      Much like the old churches
                      some people feel safe if
                      they are told how to get
                      to heven and avoid hell.
                      I imagin Harold is trying
                      to incorporate the Eck
                      teachings with christian
                      beliefs as that is Harolds
                      background.

                      I am afraid it is a marrage
                      that is doomed to failure.
                      Hopefully sooner than later.
                      Diana


                      <prometheus wrote:
                      >
                      > Hello Diana and All,
                      > Klemp cares about
                      > the more youthful
                      > image he's projecting
                      > in the PR brochures
                      > and his official pic
                      > displayed in EK Centers
                      > and at Intros because
                      > it appeals to younger
                      > people more than his
                      > old real life image does!
                      >
                      > Thus, more suckers
                      > are attracted to the
                      > bait and switch packaging
                      > versus the reality which
                      > would repel them. LOL!
                      >
                      > At a Seminar (after
                      > seeing Klemp) they
                      > simply decide to stay
                      > until he gets done talking.
                      > Klemp was never too
                      > photogenic anyway but
                      > now he's really getting
                      > pathetic looking... as
                      > a Mahanta/God!
                      >
                      > Really, how can Eckists
                      > believe in or talk about
                      > the ECK Masters like
                      > Rebazar, who are
                      > supposedly over 500
                      > years old and still maintain
                      > a physical body, when
                      > Klemp claims to be the
                      > greatest and most spiritually
                      > advanced Mahanta ever!
                      > Yet, he's wasting away!
                      > It doesn't make sense if
                      > it was true! The truth is
                      > there are No ECK Masters
                      > and Klemp is a phony!
                      >
                      > Pretend can be fun and
                      > the imagination can make
                      > the mundane magical,
                      > it's an escape, and it can
                      > be used (as lies) to explain
                      > things in mythological and
                      > unscientific terms because
                      > science can't explain it
                      > away with concrete analysis
                      > and proven facts. Besides,
                      > would most people listen?
                      > Therefore, the ECK Masters
                      > are as imagined as the
                      > characters in Harry Potter,
                      > or the Lord of the Rings,
                      > et al.
                      >
                      > Thus, if Eckankar was for
                      > real Klemp wouldn't be
                      > aging and rapidly! He'd
                      > look like Rebazar or one
                      > of the other portraits of
                      > those fake ECK Masters.
                      >
                      > Funny that the artist who
                      > did the latest ECK Master
                      > portraits made them look
                      > younger than Klemp's real-
                      > time current photo (not the
                      > embellished portrait)! Just
                      > go the eckankar.org and
                      > see for yourself! It's comical!
                      >
                      > Prometheus
                      >
                      >
                      > dianastanley wrote:
                      > I don't understand why
                      > he cares what he looks
                      > like he never hardly ever
                      > makes public appearences.
                      > Maybe he has a double
                      > to do all public pr work!!!
                      > Diana
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > <prometheus wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hello Diana and All,
                      > > At one time Klemp tried
                      > > contact lens but eventually
                      > > switched back to glasses.
                      > > I'm told he received some
                      > > criticism, from H.I.s via
                      > > chelas, that contacts were
                      > > more of a vanity issue than
                      > > a sight/vision issue. ECKists
                      > > can't have their mealy looking
                      > > Mahanta project a fraudulent
                      > > appearance because that
                      > > would indicate other frauds
                      > > might be taking place and
                      > > perpetuated. LOL!
                      > >
                      > > However, I've also read that
                      > > contacts can offer people
                      > > better vision than glasses,
                      > > but maybe that was just
                      > > a slanted PR story to sell
                      > > a product like Eckankar
                      > > does.
                      > >
                      > > I'm assuming that this is
                      > > why Klemp won't dye his
                      > > hair or get hair plugs. I
                      > > wonder what else Klemp
                      > > does, or doesn't do, that
                      > > is natural? Boxers, briefs,
                      > > or commando?
                      > >
                      > > Prometheus
                      > >
                      > > dianastanley wrote:
                      > > maybe he should try botox
                      > > or a face lift. It would be
                      > > a miricale that he got his
                      > > youth back!
                      > > Diana
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > <prometheus wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Hello All,
                      > > > This is simply more proof
                      > > > of Eckankar's deceptions.
                      > > >
                      > > > It's come to my attention
                      > > > that Klemp is still using
                      > > > a 10-15 old photo as his
                      > > > "Official Photo" which is
                      > > > to be displayed at ECK
                      > > > functions and EK Centers.
                      > > >
                      > > > WHY? Really, why is this
                      > > > being done?
                      > > >
                      > > > Isn't Klemp comfortable
                      > > > with his aging?
                      > > >
                      > > > On the front page of the
                      > > > September, 2011 "The
                      > > > Mystic World of ECKankar"
                      > > > is a current photo of Klemp.
                      > > >
                      > > > However, if one looks at
                      > > > the back page where "The
                      > > > Wisdom Notes" are given
                      > > > there is the older "Official
                      > > > Photo" depicting a younger
                      > > > looking Klemp.
                      > > >
                      > > > Is the real and present day
                      > > > photo depicting the Outer
                      > > > LEM while the "Official (past)
                      > > > Photo" depicting the Inner
                      > > > Master/Mahanta? Is that
                      > > > Klemp's rationale for this
                      > > > subliminal trickery?
                      > > >
                      > > > Really, I don't think that this
                      > > > issue has ever been addressed
                      > > > since ECKists aren't permitted
                      > > > to ask such questions without
                      > > > risking reprisals by their RESAs
                      > > > or via the ESC (Klemp).
                      > > >
                      > > > But, in Eckankar, what is reality?
                      > > > Is it anything one wants to deny
                      > > > and imagine differently as you
                      > > > like it?
                      > > >
                      > > > This photo switch is simply
                      > > > another trick that Klemp uses
                      > > > to cloud the minds and reasoning
                      > > > abilities of his followers so they
                      > > > can feel good about their religion
                      > > > of pretend Masters, Initiations,
                      > > > and Planes of Consciousness.
                      > > >
                      > > > This denial of the obvious is
                      > > > why ECKists are comfortable
                      > > > and passive sheep and/or are
                      > > > chickens in the EK hen house.
                      > > > However, on the other hand,
                      > > > ECKists are stressed out as
                      > > > well.
                      > > >
                      > > > ECKists must be Vahanas/
                      > > > Missionary's and give Service
                      > > > to Klemp (and Lip Service to
                      > > > the public) in order to advance
                      > > > and/or to maintain their status
                      > > > as official spokespersons.
                      > > >
                      > > > The Lip Service is when they
                      > > > give the "official" presentations
                      > > > which omit facts with the guise
                      > > > of being "too much spiritual
                      > > > food" for the seeker to handle.
                      > > >
                      > > > Come on, just tell them how
                      > > > long it will probably take them
                      > > > to become free of Karma or
                      > > > reach the 5th initiation! And,
                      > > > how many more years (and
                      > > > what's required) it should
                      > > > take them to reach the 7th
                      > > > initiation. Then tell them
                      > > > how long it will be for them
                      > > > to reach the 8th initiation...
                      > > > maybe the RESA would know
                      > > > that answer. LOL!
                      > > >
                      > > > Prometheus
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > From Dec, 2009:
                      > > > Isn't it strange that a "spiritual
                      > > > master" (a Mahanta) would still
                      > > > be using an outdated photo.
                      > > > This shows that Klemp is attached
                      > > > to KAL's lower plane influences.
                      > > > This is more proof that HK has
                      > > > fallen from SUGMAD's Grace (not
                      > > > that he ever had it). Still, for some
                      > > > ECKists Klemp's youthful appearance
                      > > > attachment must be confusing.
                      > > > Others simply turn a Blind Eye
                      > > > to it all... they like the public
                      > > > seeing the younger looking photo.
                      > > > It's less embarrassing than the
                      > > > real thing. H.I.s, especially, live
                      > > > in a state of denial because it's
                      > > > comfortable and convenient
                      > > > and EK Membership has become
                      > > > habitual and ego driven.
                      > > >
                      > > > {Note: Annual EK Membership
                      > > > is actually required in order to
                      > > > receive and keep initiations. The
                      > > > reenrolling of one's membership
                      > > > must become habitual or risk
                      > > > losing the fake connection with
                      > > > the Inner via the outer monetary
                      > > > membership requirement. Thus,
                      > > > EK membership is ego, as well as,
                      > > > fear driven.}
                      > > >
                      > > > Prometheus
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