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Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp's Vanity - His Wisdom Notes and EK Brochure Photo

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  • etznab@aol.com
    The words as it appeared to are interesting to me in those definitions for mahanta consciousness . This suggests to me that the M.C. can appear to people
    Message 1 of 21 , Dec 21, 2009
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      The words "as it appeared to" are interesting to me
      in those definitions for "mahanta consciousness".

      This suggests to me that the "M.C." can appear to
      people under so many different forms. Like Jesus,
      Krishna, Jupiter, etc.

      Also interesting was how Krishna was described in
      somewhat negative terms by both Julian Johnson &
      Paul Twitchell. At other times the description is not
      so negative.

      In about the 1970s though, Paul appears to elaborate
      further about "mahanta". He describes the "historical"
      and "eternal" mahantas. I believe. There was a third
      in the group (trinity) as well.

      Perhaps Paul Twitchell, Darwin Gross and Harold K.
      fit into the category of "historical" mahanta? (Right
      along there with Jesus, Jupiter and Krishna, etc.?)

      Of course some of those characters are composed
      of myths and the literal history dubious and far from
      reality in some places. IMO.

      BTW, I see no entry for "Eternal Mahanta" and / or
      "Historical Mahanta" in Harold Klemp & Eckankar's
      Lexicon. I don't believe they have an entry in Paul T.
      Eckankar dictionary either.

      I believe the Eckankar dictionary came out in 1973
      and after Paul Twitchell was already dead. However,
      I believe it was in Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad (1970?) that
      Paul elaborated on "mahanta". I will have to check
      to see whether Darwin Gross or Harold Klemp wrote
      about eternal, or historical mahantas and the reason
      for illustrating them.

      Etznab


      -----Original Message-----
      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sun, Dec 20, 2009 10:37 pm
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp's Vanity - His Wisdom
      Notes and EK Brochure Photo

       
      You make some good points Etznab.
      I would say that the Roman God Jupiter
      was an Astral Plane God that was created
      by the Romans. Then again, I think that
      all of those Gods that religions worship
      have been created by men. Is it no wonder,
      then, that in PT's Eckankar Dictionary
      and in Klemp's 1998 EK Lexicon that they
      both state that the Roman God "Jupiter
      was the Mahanta Consciousness to the
      Romans." Thus, by definition, the Mahanta
      is also a 2nd Plane God and is, therefore,
      of the Astral Plane of Consciousness which
      is ruled by KAL (Satan, devil).

      Prometheus

      etznab wrote:

      rometheus,

      I believe the term "mahanta consciousness"
      evolved over time according to descriptions
      given to it via Eckankar. Like, what was it?
      1969 before Paul mentioned "mahanta" in
      a wisdom note and The Flute of God? The
      fuller descriptions of L.E.M. & Mahanta did
      not appear until the last couple years in the
      life of Paul Twitchell when he set out to ex-
      plain them in the Shariyat books, I believe.
      1970-1971?

      In some earlier books with Rebazar Tarzs
      I don't know that the word "mahanta" was
      even given much mention, if at all. I think
      the term "spiritual traveler" was mentioned
      more.

      Also, I have to consider the appearance in
      Paul T's early dictionary for the term, and
      where so many people (some legendary)
      from history were said to be the mahanta
      consciousness as vehicle for the Sugmad
      as it appeared to .... (in so many words),
      etc.

      Jesus and Krishna were both mentioned.
      And yet, Jesus is generally understood -
      in Eckankar history - to have been a 2nd
      initiate only.

      So what initiation level is the "mahanta
      consciousness"? I couldn't tell you. All I
      can say (at this point) is the definitions
      have apparently evolved over the years. I
      believe that when the teachings became
      a religion in July 1970 that "mahanta" &
      L.E.M. merged to become identified as
      the same thing around that time. Since I
      suspect Eckankar had to be defined for
      legal purposes and one of the things they
      ask you (IMO) is: What is the title of the
      person in charge & who is that person?

      This is speculation on my part. Paul did
      mention at least 3 "levels" of Mahanta -
      I believe - in the Shariyat. Including the
      "Eternal Mahanta" and "Historical Maha-
      anta". All of these merged into the head
      of the religion and organization of Eck-
      ankar at some point, if you ask me. It is
      very hard for the organization to separate
      them from the leader of Eckankar, IMO,
      as that might suggest the physical body,
      the vehicle and leader of Eckankar is but
      a limited form of "highest consciousness".
      Remember the last part for the definition
      for Mahanta Consciousnes used to be:

      "[....] a state of God consciousness which
      is beyond the titles given in religions which
      designate states of consciousness; the
      highest of all states of consciousness."

      [See: Paul Twitchell Dictionary]

      It means not so much of anything to me
      what appears beside the definition(s) for
      "mahanta" today unless I can prove that
      information to be true. I think Paul said &
      wrote a lot of stuff. I also think he exagg-
      erated in some places. Besides that I do
      not see how a highest state of conscious-
      ness can be identified with a human and
      limited vehicle. I'll give you an example.
      Suppose a leader of Eckankar has / had
      a physical disability of some kind. Even
      suppose a leader died. How can human
      beings limited by the physical senses &
      human mortality equate with a "highest
      state of consciousness"? Or, the highest?
      Especially one such as called "Eternal
      Mahanta" present from the beginning of
      time?

      Some things (including the highest of all
      states of consciousness) became at one
      point identified with a single human being,
      IMO. This is what I suspect, at least.

      Etznab

      prometheus wrote:
      Hello Etznab,
      You said, "Wasn't the far ancient past
      like some kind of "Golden Age" anyway?
      Compared to today?"

      I don't think so, but it's all relevant to
      who you are and where you are and
      when you were there, as well as, one's
      state of mind. Some people are experiencing
      the "Golden Age" now while others have
      experienced their "Golden Age" in a past
      lifetime. It doesn't necessarily have to
      involve the consciousness of world society...
      only yours and from your perspective.
      All else is illusion and a test for Soul.
      However, the knowledge of true
      history is an aide for us to expand our
      current awareness and to help made
      it better for those who come after us.

      "Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
      truth escape us? How might that have happ-
      ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
      in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
      was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
      untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
      fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
      ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
      blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
      as literally true."

      One can look at different stages and timeframes
      of any society and see where the past was
      better, in some areas, and worse in other
      areas.

      Censorship has always been a control tactic
      used by those in power and how it's used has
      varied. ECKankar has censorship too, and most
      H.I.s know what many of the boundaries are.
      Why censorship is condoned is related to having
      an "EK membership card." One has to follow
      the rules and be a part of the herd. That's why
      many H.I.s turn a blind-eye and deaf-ear to
      most of it in order to have ECKankar work for
      them as it is with any religious belief system.
      Blind Faith, Narrow Thinking, and the constant
      use of the Imagination are key for EK to "work."

      And, after all, Why doesn't Klemp have PT's
      historic book "Difficulties Of Becoming The
      Living ECK Master" reprinted by ECKankar?
      It's because Klemp can't handle the truth
      that it would reveal nor be able to deal with
      the questions and doubt that would ensue.
      Thus, we have censorship which is a negative
      effect caused by Klemp's negative (lower
      KAL plane) fears and deceit!

      Prometheus

      etznab wrote:
      [....] Even in some of the temples people employed
      inventions for the manifestation of apparent miracles.
      What they got in return were donations. Of course,
      they didn't tell people the real source of the miracles.
      Otherwise donations might become less. [....]"

      Something from the description of the movie I saw
      where it documented various forms of deception that
      were employed to make miracles appear to happen
      using different forms of technology. This is where it
      appears that science was used to promote ideas of
      miracle-working gods existing behind the scenes. It
      was a perversion of not only religion, but of science
      as well. In my opinion:

      "Set firmly at the intersection of religion, science
      and commerce, the latest episode of ANCIENT
      DISCOVERIES travels to Rome and Greece to
      explore the commissioning, fabrication and pre-
      sentation of marvels meant to instill awe and draw
      hordes of deep-pocketed devotees. You will be
      amazed to learn how the greatest minds of the age
      were turned to the construction of what were little
      more than parlor tricks, albeit enormously sophist-
      icated and impressive ones."

      http://shop.history.com/detail.php?p=69989&amp;ecid=SEO-0000046&pa=SEO-SSP

      I believe that program appeared on the History
      Channel some time back.

      Add to this the fact people have fabricated even
      ancient artifacts to frauduently propagate church
      history, have told stories that were mythological
      and / or symbolic - but accepted as literal truth,
      used teachings and quotes from the past which
      were fragmentary, little understood, and / or in a
      language nobody today completely understands,
      etc., and I see ample reason to be skeptical. To
      investigate, examine and even question "outer"
      forms of teachings - from science to religion.

      Today it appears ironic how religion and science
      are apparently divided, when many have argued
      it was not always the case. Col. James Church-
      ward speaking about "religion" in Lemuria gives
      an opinion that religion was described in terms
      a child could understand. Also, that religion and
      science were not two separate things in the very
      beginning. In fact, it is my belief, religion was
      described in "scientific" terms then because the
      people knew how both were connected.

      So, when science today is used to investigate,
      examine and, in some cases expose religious
      fraud I think it helps to remember how science
      was not always the record of ignorance about
      how things work that is in existence today.

      And, in my opinion, some people from earlier
      times may have been much more advanced,
      not less advanced (generally), compared with
      people living today. Looking at remains of the
      past through a modern (ignorant of the past)
      lens and portraying them as less civilized,
      less knowledgeable and less wise is (IMO) a
      major insult to history. I'm talking particularly
      about the ancient and far ancient past. Times
      when monuments were constructed and tech-
      nology existed that people today are still try-
      ing to fathom.

      Wasn't the far ancient past like some kind of
      "Golden Age" anyway? Compared to today?
      Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
      truth escape us? How might that have happ-
      ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
      in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
      was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
      untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
      fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
      ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
      blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
      as literally true.

      Etznab
    • prometheus_973
      You re right! Klemp has said that, Jupiter was the Mahanta Consciousness as it appeared to the Romans, or as it appears to EKists via the LEM! BTW- The
      Message 2 of 21 , Dec 21, 2009
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        You're right! Klemp has said that, "Jupiter
        was the 'Mahanta Consciousness' as it appeared
        to the Romans," or "as it appears" to EKists
        via the LEM!

        BTW- The term you were probably looking for
        is: "Adi-Mahanta. The primordial Mahanta. The
        line of Mastership begun with RAMA, the first
        world Savior, which has been handed down through
        the centuries by the ECK Masters via Oral Secret
        Teachings to those who were Initiated into the
        Order of the Vairagi." (EK Lexicon, 1998, pg. 3)

        This is interesting because this same "Rama"
        is an Indian God who HK claims "brought the
        ECK to India and later to the Aryans, the Fifth
        Root Race." So, the First Mahanta only came
        on-the-scene during the time of the Fifth Root
        Race. And, this title and Consciousness was created
        by the Vairagi Masters and not by Sugmad directly
        (pg.172).

        Now, if someone were to look up "Aryans" in
        HK's 1998 EK Lexicon they would see that this
        is the current ruling race. BTW- "RAMA" was not
        listed as being a Mahanta in the EK Lexicon...
        only a LEM. Why wouldn't Klemp list him as
        a (Full) Mahanta? Maybe he's more detailed in
        the new EK Lexicon and has done another
        Tweak (reedit).

        However, the truth is that Twitchell created
        Eckankar's Mahanta circa Jan. 1, 1969. And,
        "Mahanta" actually means "monastery head."
        Marman and many other EKists know this, but
        for Eckankar to work as a belief system one
        has to have "faith" and toss reason aside! This
        is how religions work... No Thinking is needed!

        Prometheus




        etznab wrote:

        The words "as it appeared to" are interesting to me
        in those definitions for "mahanta consciousness".

        This suggests to me that the "M.C." can appear to
        people under so many different forms. Like Jesus,
        Krishna, Jupiter, etc.

        Also interesting was how Krishna was described in
        somewhat negative terms by both Julian Johnson &
        Paul Twitchell. At other times the description is not
        so negative.

        In about the 1970s though, Paul appears to elaborate
        further about "mahanta". He describes the "historical"
        and "eternal" mahantas. I believe. There was a third
        in the group (trinity) as well.

        Perhaps Paul Twitchell, Darwin Gross and Harold K.
        fit into the category of "historical" mahanta? (Right
        along there with Jesus, Jupiter and Krishna, etc.?)

        Of course some of those characters are composed
        of myths and the literal history dubious and far from
        reality in some places. IMO.

        BTW, I see no entry for "Eternal Mahanta" and / or
        "Historical Mahanta" in Harold Klemp & Eckankar's
        Lexicon. I don't believe they have an entry in Paul T.
        Eckankar dictionary either.

        I believe the Eckankar dictionary came out in 1973
        and after Paul Twitchell was already dead. However,
        I believe it was in Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad (1970?) that
        Paul elaborated on "mahanta". I will have to check
        to see whether Darwin Gross or Harold Klemp wrote
        about eternal, or historical mahantas and the reason
        for illustrating them.

        Etznab


        prometheus wrote:
        You make some good points Etznab.
        I would say that the Roman God Jupiter
        was an Astral Plane God that was created
        by the Romans. Then again, I think that
        all of those Gods that religions worship
        have been created by men. Is it no wonder,
        then, that in PT's Eckankar Dictionary
        and in Klemp's 1998 EK Lexicon that they
        both state that the Roman God "Jupiter
        was the Mahanta Consciousness to the
        Romans." Thus, by definition, the Mahanta
        is also a 2nd Plane God and is, therefore,
        of the Astral Plane of Consciousness which
        is ruled by KAL (Satan, devil).

        Prometheus

        etznab wrote:

        rometheus,

        I believe the term "mahanta consciousness"
        evolved over time according to descriptions
        given to it via Eckankar. Like, what was it?
        1969 before Paul mentioned "mahanta" in
        a wisdom note and The Flute of God? The
        fuller descriptions of L.E.M. & Mahanta did
        not appear until the last couple years in the
        life of Paul Twitchell when he set out to ex-
        plain them in the Shariyat books, I believe.
        1970-1971?

        In some earlier books with Rebazar Tarzs
        I don't know that the word "mahanta" was
        even given much mention, if at all. I think
        the term "spiritual traveler" was mentioned
        more.

        Also, I have to consider the appearance in
        Paul T's early dictionary for the term, and
        where so many people (some legendary)
        from history were said to be the mahanta
        consciousness as vehicle for the Sugmad
        as it appeared to .... (in so many words),
        etc.

        Jesus and Krishna were both mentioned.
        And yet, Jesus is generally understood -
        in Eckankar history - to have been a 2nd
        initiate only.

        So what initiation level is the "mahanta
        consciousness"? I couldn't tell you. All I
        can say (at this point) is the definitions
        have apparently evolved over the years. I
        believe that when the teachings became
        a religion in July 1970 that "mahanta" &
        L.E.M. merged to become identified as
        the same thing around that time. Since I
        suspect Eckankar had to be defined for
        legal purposes and one of the things they
        ask you (IMO) is: What is the title of the
        person in charge & who is that person?

        This is speculation on my part. Paul did
        mention at least 3 "levels" of Mahanta -
        I believe - in the Shariyat. Including the
        "Eternal Mahanta" and "Historical Maha-
        anta". All of these merged into the head
        of the religion and organization of Eck-
        ankar at some point, if you ask me. It is
        very hard for the organization to separate
        them from the leader of Eckankar, IMO,
        as that might suggest the physical body,
        the vehicle and leader of Eckankar is but
        a limited form of "highest consciousness".
        Remember the last part for the definition
        for Mahanta Consciousnes used to be:

        "[....] a state of God consciousness which
        is beyond the titles given in religions which
        designate states of consciousness; the
        highest of all states of consciousness."

        [See: Paul Twitchell Dictionary]

        It means not so much of anything to me
        what appears beside the definition(s) for
        "mahanta" today unless I can prove that
        information to be true. I think Paul said &
        wrote a lot of stuff. I also think he exagg-
        erated in some places. Besides that I do
        not see how a highest state of conscious-
        ness can be identified with a human and
        limited vehicle. I'll give you an example.
        Suppose a leader of Eckankar has / had
        a physical disability of some kind. Even
        suppose a leader died. How can human
        beings limited by the physical senses &
        human mortality equate with a "highest
        state of consciousness"? Or, the highest?
        Especially one such as called "Eternal
        Mahanta" present from the beginning of
        time?

        Some things (including the highest of all
        states of consciousness) became at one
        point identified with a single human being,
        IMO. This is what I suspect, at least.

        Etznab

        prometheus wrote:
        Hello Etznab,
        You said, "Wasn't the far ancient past
        like some kind of "Golden Age" anyway?
        Compared to today?"

        I don't think so, but it's all relevant to
        who you are and where you are and
        when you were there, as well as, one's
        state of mind. Some people are experiencing
        the "Golden Age" now while others have
        experienced their "Golden Age" in a past
        lifetime. It doesn't necessarily have to
        involve the consciousness of world society...
        only yours and from your perspective.
        All else is illusion and a test for Soul.
        However, the knowledge of true
        history is an aide for us to expand our
        current awareness and to help made
        it better for those who come after us.

        "Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
        truth escape us? How might that have happ-
        ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
        in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
        was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
        untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
        fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
        ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
        blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
        as literally true."

        One can look at different stages and timeframes
        of any society and see where the past was
        better, in some areas, and worse in other
        areas.

        Censorship has always been a control tactic
        used by those in power and how it's used has
        varied. ECKankar has censorship too, and most
        H.I.s know what many of the boundaries are.
        Why censorship is condoned is related to having
        an "EK membership card." One has to follow
        the rules and be a part of the herd. That's why
        many H.I.s turn a blind-eye and deaf-ear to
        most of it in order to have ECKankar work for
        them as it is with any religious belief system.
        Blind Faith, Narrow Thinking, and the constant
        use of the Imagination are key for EK to "work."

        And, after all, Why doesn't Klemp have PT's
        historic book "Difficulties Of Becoming The
        Living ECK Master" reprinted by ECKankar?
        It's because Klemp can't handle the truth
        that it would reveal nor be able to deal with
        the questions and doubt that would ensue.
        Thus, we have censorship which is a negative
        effect caused by Klemp's negative (lower
        KAL plane) fears and deceit!

        Prometheus

        etznab wrote:
        [....] Even in some of the temples people employed
        inventions for the manifestation of apparent miracles.
        What they got in return were donations. Of course,
        they didn't tell people the real source of the miracles.
        Otherwise donations might become less. [....]"

        Something from the description of the movie I saw
        where it documented various forms of deception that
        were employed to make miracles appear to happen
        using different forms of technology. This is where it
        appears that science was used to promote ideas of
        miracle-working gods existing behind the scenes. It
        was a perversion of not only religion, but of science
        as well. In my opinion:

        "Set firmly at the intersection of religion, science
        and commerce, the latest episode of ANCIENT
        DISCOVERIES travels to Rome and Greece to
        explore the commissioning, fabrication and pre-
        sentation of marvels meant to instill awe and draw
        hordes of deep-pocketed devotees. You will be
        amazed to learn how the greatest minds of the age
        were turned to the construction of what were little
        more than parlor tricks, albeit enormously sophist-
        icated and impressive ones."

        http://shop.history.com/detail.php?p=69989&amp;ecid=SEO-0000046&pa=SEO-SSP

        I believe that program appeared on the History
        Channel some time back.

        Add to this the fact people have fabricated even
        ancient artifacts to frauduently propagate church
        history, have told stories that were mythological
        and / or symbolic - but accepted as literal truth,
        used teachings and quotes from the past which
        were fragmentary, little understood, and / or in a
        language nobody today completely understands,
        etc., and I see ample reason to be skeptical. To
        investigate, examine and even question "outer"
        forms of teachings - from science to religion.

        Today it appears ironic how religion and science
        are apparently divided, when many have argued
        it was not always the case. Col. James Church-
        ward speaking about "religion" in Lemuria gives
        an opinion that religion was described in terms
        a child could understand. Also, that religion and
        science were not two separate things in the very
        beginning. In fact, it is my belief, religion was
        described in "scientific" terms then because the
        people knew how both were connected.

        So, when science today is used to investigate,
        examine and, in some cases expose religious
        fraud I think it helps to remember how science
        was not always the record of ignorance about
        how things work that is in existence today.

        And, in my opinion, some people from earlier
        times may have been much more advanced,
        not less advanced (generally), compared with
        people living today. Looking at remains of the
        past through a modern (ignorant of the past)
        lens and portraying them as less civilized,
        less knowledgeable and less wise is (IMO) a
        major insult to history. I'm talking particularly
        about the ancient and far ancient past. Times
        when monuments were constructed and tech-
        nology existed that people today are still try-
        ing to fathom.

        Wasn't the far ancient past like some kind of
        "Golden Age" anyway? Compared to today?
        Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
        truth escape us? How might that have happ-
        ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
        in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
        was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
        untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
        fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
        ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
        blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
        as literally true.

        Etznab
      • prometheus_973
        Hello All, FIRST- Let s move on from the ECK chela nut/fanatic that s been sending out negative emails to ESA site members. We all know that as above, so
        Message 3 of 21 , Jan 6, 2010
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          Hello All,
          FIRST- Let's move on from the ECK
          chela nut/fanatic that's been sending
          out negative emails to ESA site members.
          We all know that "as above, so below"
          is a direct factor and cause of his imbalance.

          ******
          You're right Etznab! Klemp has said that,
          "Jupiter was the 'Mahanta Consciousness'
          as it appeared to the Romans," or "as it
          appears" to EKists via the LEM!

          BTW- The term you were probably looking for
          is: "Adi-Mahanta. The primordial Mahanta. The
          line of Mastership begun with RAMA, the first
          world Savior, which has been handed down through
          the centuries by the ECK Masters via Oral Secret
          Teachings to those who were Initiated into the
          Order of the Vairagi." (EK Lexicon, 1998, pg. 3)

          This is interesting because this same "Rama"
          is an Indian God who HK claims "brought the
          ECK to India and later to the Aryans, the Fifth
          Root Race." So, the First Mahanta only came
          on-the-scene during the time of the Fifth Root
          Race. And, this title and Consciousness was created
          by the Vairagi Masters and not by Sugmad directly
          (pg.172).

          Now, if someone were to look up "Aryans" in
          HK's 1998 EK Lexicon they would see that this
          is the current ruling race. BTW- "RAMA" was not
          listed as being a Mahanta in the EK Lexicon...
          only a LEM. Why wouldn't Klemp list him as
          a (Full) Mahanta? Maybe he's more detailed in
          the new EK Lexicon and has done another
          Tweak (reedit).

          However, the truth is that Twitchell created
          Eckankar's Mahanta circa Jan. 1, 1969. And,
          "Mahanta" actually means "monastery head."
          Marman and many other EKists know this, but
          for Eckankar to work as a belief system one
          has to have "faith" and toss reason aside! This
          is how religions work... No Thinking is needed!

          Prometheus




          etznab wrote:

          The words "as it appeared to" are interesting to me
          in those definitions for "mahanta consciousness".

          This suggests to me that the "M.C." can appear to
          people under so many different forms. Like Jesus,
          Krishna, Jupiter, etc.

          Also interesting was how Krishna was described in
          somewhat negative terms by both Julian Johnson &
          Paul Twitchell. At other times the description is not
          so negative.

          In about the 1970s though, Paul appears to elaborate
          further about "mahanta". He describes the "historical"
          and "eternal" mahantas. I believe. There was a third
          in the group (trinity) as well.

          Perhaps Paul Twitchell, Darwin Gross and Harold K.
          fit into the category of "historical" mahanta? (Right
          along there with Jesus, Jupiter and Krishna, etc.?)

          Of course some of those characters are composed
          of myths and the literal history dubious and far from
          reality in some places. IMO.

          BTW, I see no entry for "Eternal Mahanta" and / or
          "Historical Mahanta" in Harold Klemp & Eckankar's
          Lexicon. I don't believe they have an entry in Paul T.
          Eckankar dictionary either.

          I believe the Eckankar dictionary came out in 1973
          and after Paul Twitchell was already dead. However,
          I believe it was in Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad (1970?) that
          Paul elaborated on "mahanta". I will have to check
          to see whether Darwin Gross or Harold Klemp wrote
          about eternal, or historical mahantas and the reason
          for illustrating them.

          Etznab


          prometheus wrote:
          You make some good points Etznab.
          I would say that the Roman God Jupiter
          was an Astral Plane God that was created
          by the Romans. Then again, I think that
          all of those Gods that religions worship
          have been created by men. Is it no wonder,
          then, that in PT's Eckankar Dictionary
          and in Klemp's 1998 EK Lexicon that they
          both state that the Roman God "Jupiter
          was the Mahanta Consciousness to the
          Romans." Thus, by definition, the Mahanta
          is also a 2nd Plane God and is, therefore,
          of the Astral Plane of Consciousness which
          is ruled by KAL (Satan, devil).

          Prometheus

          etznab wrote:

          rometheus,

          I believe the term "mahanta consciousness"
          evolved over time according to descriptions
          given to it via Eckankar. Like, what was it?
          1969 before Paul mentioned "mahanta" in
          a wisdom note and The Flute of God? The
          fuller descriptions of L.E.M. & Mahanta did
          not appear until the last couple years in the
          life of Paul Twitchell when he set out to ex-
          plain them in the Shariyat books, I believe.
          1970-1971?

          In some earlier books with Rebazar Tarzs
          I don't know that the word "mahanta" was
          even given much mention, if at all. I think
          the term "spiritual traveler" was mentioned
          more.

          Also, I have to consider the appearance in
          Paul T's early dictionary for the term, and
          where so many people (some legendary)
          from history were said to be the mahanta
          consciousness as vehicle for the Sugmad
          as it appeared to .... (in so many words),
          etc.

          Jesus and Krishna were both mentioned.
          And yet, Jesus is generally understood -
          in Eckankar history - to have been a 2nd
          initiate only.

          So what initiation level is the "mahanta
          consciousness"? I couldn't tell you. All I
          can say (at this point) is the definitions
          have apparently evolved over the years. I
          believe that when the teachings became
          a religion in July 1970 that "mahanta" &
          L.E.M. merged to become identified as
          the same thing around that time. Since I
          suspect Eckankar had to be defined for
          legal purposes and one of the things they
          ask you (IMO) is: What is the title of the
          person in charge & who is that person?

          This is speculation on my part. Paul did
          mention at least 3 "levels" of Mahanta -
          I believe - in the Shariyat. Including the
          "Eternal Mahanta" and "Historical Maha-
          anta". All of these merged into the head
          of the religion and organization of Eck-
          ankar at some point, if you ask me. It is
          very hard for the organization to separate
          them from the leader of Eckankar, IMO,
          as that might suggest the physical body,
          the vehicle and leader of Eckankar is but
          a limited form of "highest consciousness".
          Remember the last part for the definition
          for Mahanta Consciousnes used to be:

          "[....] a state of God consciousness which
          is beyond the titles given in religions which
          designate states of consciousness; the
          highest of all states of consciousness."

          [See: Paul Twitchell Dictionary]

          It means not so much of anything to me
          what appears beside the definition(s) for
          "mahanta" today unless I can prove that
          information to be true. I think Paul said &
          wrote a lot of stuff. I also think he exagg-
          erated in some places. Besides that I do
          not see how a highest state of conscious-
          ness can be identified with a human and
          limited vehicle. I'll give you an example.
          Suppose a leader of Eckankar has / had
          a physical disability of some kind. Even
          suppose a leader died. How can human
          beings limited by the physical senses &
          human mortality equate with a "highest
          state of consciousness"? Or, the highest?
          Especially one such as called "Eternal
          Mahanta" present from the beginning of
          time?

          Some things (including the highest of all
          states of consciousness) became at one
          point identified with a single human being,
          IMO. This is what I suspect, at least.

          Etznab

          prometheus wrote:
          Hello Etznab,
          You said, "Wasn't the far ancient past
          like some kind of "Golden Age" anyway?
          Compared to today?"

          I don't think so, but it's all relevant to
          who you are and where you are and
          when you were there, as well as, one's
          state of mind. Some people are experiencing
          the "Golden Age" now while others have
          experienced their "Golden Age" in a past
          lifetime. It doesn't necessarily have to
          involve the consciousness of world society...
          only yours and from your perspective.
          All else is illusion and a test for Soul.
          However, the knowledge of true
          history is an aide for us to expand our
          current awareness and to help made
          it better for those who come after us.

          "Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
          truth escape us? How might that have happ-
          ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
          in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
          was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
          untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
          fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
          ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
          blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
          as literally true."

          One can look at different stages and timeframes
          of any society and see where the past was
          better, in some areas, and worse in other
          areas.

          Censorship has always been a control tactic
          used by those in power and how it's used has
          varied. ECKankar has censorship too, and most
          H.I.s know what many of the boundaries are.
          Why censorship is condoned is related to having
          an "EK membership card." One has to follow
          the rules and be a part of the herd. That's why
          many H.I.s turn a blind-eye and deaf-ear to
          most of it in order to have ECKankar work for
          them as it is with any religious belief system.
          Blind Faith, Narrow Thinking, and the constant
          use of the Imagination are key for EK to "work."

          And, after all, Why doesn't Klemp have PT's
          historic book "Difficulties Of Becoming The
          Living ECK Master" reprinted by ECKankar?
          It's because Klemp can't handle the truth
          that it would reveal nor be able to deal with
          the questions and doubt that would ensue.
          Thus, we have censorship which is a negative
          effect caused by Klemp's negative (lower
          KAL plane) fears and deceit!

          Prometheus

          etznab wrote:
          [....] Even in some of the temples people employed
          inventions for the manifestation of apparent miracles.
          What they got in return were donations. Of course,
          they didn't tell people the real source of the miracles.
          Otherwise donations might become less. [....]"

          Something from the description of the movie I saw
          where it documented various forms of deception that
          were employed to make miracles appear to happen
          using different forms of technology. This is where it
          appears that science was used to promote ideas of
          miracle-working gods existing behind the scenes. It
          was a perversion of not only religion, but of science
          as well. In my opinion:

          "Set firmly at the intersection of religion, science
          and commerce, the latest episode of ANCIENT
          DISCOVERIES travels to Rome and Greece to
          explore the commissioning, fabrication and pre-
          sentation of marvels meant to instill awe and draw
          hordes of deep-pocketed devotees. You will be
          amazed to learn how the greatest minds of the age
          were turned to the construction of what were little
          more than parlor tricks, albeit enormously sophist-
          icated and impressive ones."

          http://shop.history.com/detail.php?p=69989&amp;ecid=SEO-0000046&pa=SEO-SSP

          I believe that program appeared on the History
          Channel some time back.

          Add to this the fact people have fabricated even
          ancient artifacts to frauduently propagate church
          history, have told stories that were mythological
          and / or symbolic - but accepted as literal truth,
          used teachings and quotes from the past which
          were fragmentary, little understood, and / or in a
          language nobody today completely understands,
          etc., and I see ample reason to be skeptical. To
          investigate, examine and even question "outer"
          forms of teachings - from science to religion.

          Today it appears ironic how religion and science
          are apparently divided, when many have argued
          it was not always the case. Col. James Church-
          ward speaking about "religion" in Lemuria gives
          an opinion that religion was described in terms
          a child could understand. Also, that religion and
          science were not two separate things in the very
          beginning. In fact, it is my belief, religion was
          described in "scientific" terms then because the
          people knew how both were connected.

          So, when science today is used to investigate,
          examine and, in some cases expose religious
          fraud I think it helps to remember how science
          was not always the record of ignorance about
          how things work that is in existence today.

          And, in my opinion, some people from earlier
          times may have been much more advanced,
          not less advanced (generally), compared with
          people living today. Looking at remains of the
          past through a modern (ignorant of the past)
          lens and portraying them as less civilized,
          less knowledgeable and less wise is (IMO) a
          major insult to history. I'm talking particularly
          about the ancient and far ancient past. Times
          when monuments were constructed and tech-
          nology existed that people today are still try-
          ing to fathom.

          Wasn't the far ancient past like some kind of
          "Golden Age" anyway? Compared to today?
          Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
          truth escape us? How might that have happ-
          ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
          in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
          was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
          untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
          fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
          ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
          blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
          as literally true.

          Etznab
        • prometheus_973
          Hello All, This is simply more proof of Eckankar s deceptions. It s come to my attention that Klemp is still using a 10-15 old photo as his Official Photo
          Message 4 of 21 , Nov 3, 2011
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            Hello All,
            This is simply more proof
            of Eckankar's deceptions.

            It's come to my attention
            that Klemp is still using
            a 10-15 old photo as his
            "Official Photo" which is
            to be displayed at ECK
            functions and EK Centers.

            WHY? Really, why is this
            being done?

            Isn't Klemp comfortable
            with his aging?

            On the front page of the
            September, 2011 "The
            Mystic World of ECKankar"
            is a current photo of Klemp.

            However, if one looks at
            the back page where "The
            Wisdom Notes" are given
            there is the older "Official
            Photo" depicting a younger
            looking Klemp.

            Is the real and present day
            photo depicting the Outer
            LEM while the "Official (past)
            Photo" depicting the Inner
            Master/Mahanta? Is that
            Klemp's rationale for this
            subliminal trickery?

            Really, I don't think that this
            issue has ever been addressed
            since ECKists aren't permitted
            to ask such questions without
            risking reprisals by their RESAs
            or via the ESC (Klemp).

            But, in Eckankar, what is reality?
            Is it anything one wants to deny
            and imagine differently as you
            like it?

            This photo switch is simply
            another trick that Klemp uses
            to cloud the minds and reasoning
            abilities of his followers so they
            can feel good about their religion
            of pretend Masters, Initiations,
            and Planes of Consciousness.

            This denial of the obvious is
            why ECKists are comfortable
            and passive sheep and/or are
            chickens in the EK hen house.
            However, on the other hand,
            ECKists are stressed out as
            well.

            ECKists must be Vahanas/
            Missionary's and give Service
            to Klemp (and Lip Service to
            the public) in order to advance
            and/or to maintain their status
            as official spokespersons.

            The Lip Service is when they
            give the "official" presentations
            which omit facts with the guise
            of being "too much spiritual
            food" for the seeker to handle.

            Come on, just tell them how
            long it will probably take them
            to become free of Karma or
            reach the 5th initiation! And,
            how many more years (and
            what's required) it should
            take them to reach the 7th
            initiation. Then tell them
            how long it will be for them
            to reach the 8th initiation...
            maybe the RESA would know
            that answer. LOL!

            Prometheus



            From Dec, 2009:
            Isn't it strange that a "spiritual
            master" (a Mahanta) would still
            be using an outdated photo.
            This shows that Klemp is attached
            to KAL's lower plane influences.
            This is more proof that HK has
            fallen from SUGMAD's Grace (not
            that he ever had it). Still, for some
            ECKists Klemp's youthful appearance
            attachment must be confusing.
            Others simply turn a Blind Eye
            to it all... they like the public
            seeing the younger looking photo.
            It's less embarrassing than the
            real thing. H.I.s, especially, live
            in a state of denial because it's
            comfortable and convenient
            and EK Membership has become
            habitual and ego driven.

            {Note: Annual EK Membership
            is actually required in order to
            receive and keep initiations. The
            reenrolling of one's membership
            must become habitual or risk
            losing the fake connection with
            the Inner via the outer monetary
            membership requirement. Thus,
            EK membership is ego, as well as,
            fear driven.}

            Prometheus
          • Diana Stanley
            maybe he should try botox or a face lift. It would be a miricale that he got his youth back! Diana
            Message 5 of 21 , Nov 4, 2011
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              maybe he should try botox or a face lift. It would be a miricale that he got his youth back!
              Diana

              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hello All,
              > This is simply more proof
              > of Eckankar's deceptions.
              >
              > It's come to my attention
              > that Klemp is still using
              > a 10-15 old photo as his
              > "Official Photo" which is
              > to be displayed at ECK
              > functions and EK Centers.
              >
              > WHY? Really, why is this
              > being done?
              >
              > Isn't Klemp comfortable
              > with his aging?
              >
              > On the front page of the
              > September, 2011 "The
              > Mystic World of ECKankar"
              > is a current photo of Klemp.
              >
              > However, if one looks at
              > the back page where "The
              > Wisdom Notes" are given
              > there is the older "Official
              > Photo" depicting a younger
              > looking Klemp.
              >
              > Is the real and present day
              > photo depicting the Outer
              > LEM while the "Official (past)
              > Photo" depicting the Inner
              > Master/Mahanta? Is that
              > Klemp's rationale for this
              > subliminal trickery?
              >
              > Really, I don't think that this
              > issue has ever been addressed
              > since ECKists aren't permitted
              > to ask such questions without
              > risking reprisals by their RESAs
              > or via the ESC (Klemp).
              >
              > But, in Eckankar, what is reality?
              > Is it anything one wants to deny
              > and imagine differently as you
              > like it?
              >
              > This photo switch is simply
              > another trick that Klemp uses
              > to cloud the minds and reasoning
              > abilities of his followers so they
              > can feel good about their religion
              > of pretend Masters, Initiations,
              > and Planes of Consciousness.
              >
              > This denial of the obvious is
              > why ECKists are comfortable
              > and passive sheep and/or are
              > chickens in the EK hen house.
              > However, on the other hand,
              > ECKists are stressed out as
              > well.
              >
              > ECKists must be Vahanas/
              > Missionary's and give Service
              > to Klemp (and Lip Service to
              > the public) in order to advance
              > and/or to maintain their status
              > as official spokespersons.
              >
              > The Lip Service is when they
              > give the "official" presentations
              > which omit facts with the guise
              > of being "too much spiritual
              > food" for the seeker to handle.
              >
              > Come on, just tell them how
              > long it will probably take them
              > to become free of Karma or
              > reach the 5th initiation! And,
              > how many more years (and
              > what's required) it should
              > take them to reach the 7th
              > initiation. Then tell them
              > how long it will be for them
              > to reach the 8th initiation...
              > maybe the RESA would know
              > that answer. LOL!
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
              >
              >
              > From Dec, 2009:
              > Isn't it strange that a "spiritual
              > master" (a Mahanta) would still
              > be using an outdated photo.
              > This shows that Klemp is attached
              > to KAL's lower plane influences.
              > This is more proof that HK has
              > fallen from SUGMAD's Grace (not
              > that he ever had it). Still, for some
              > ECKists Klemp's youthful appearance
              > attachment must be confusing.
              > Others simply turn a Blind Eye
              > to it all... they like the public
              > seeing the younger looking photo.
              > It's less embarrassing than the
              > real thing. H.I.s, especially, live
              > in a state of denial because it's
              > comfortable and convenient
              > and EK Membership has become
              > habitual and ego driven.
              >
              > {Note: Annual EK Membership
              > is actually required in order to
              > receive and keep initiations. The
              > reenrolling of one's membership
              > must become habitual or risk
              > losing the fake connection with
              > the Inner via the outer monetary
              > membership requirement. Thus,
              > EK membership is ego, as well as,
              > fear driven.}
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
            • prometheus_973
              Hello Diana and All, At one time Klemp tried contact lens but eventually switched back to glasses. I m told he received some criticism, from H.I.s via chelas,
              Message 6 of 21 , Nov 4, 2011
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                Hello Diana and All,
                At one time Klemp tried
                contact lens but eventually
                switched back to glasses.
                I'm told he received some
                criticism, from H.I.s via
                chelas, that contacts were
                more of a vanity issue than
                a sight/vision issue. ECKists
                can't have their mealy looking
                Mahanta project a fraudulent
                appearance because that
                would indicate other frauds
                might be taking place and
                perpetuated. LOL!

                However, I've also read that
                contacts can offer people
                better vision than glasses,
                but maybe that was just
                a slanted PR story to sell
                a product like Eckankar
                does.

                I'm assuming that this is
                why Klemp won't dye his
                hair or get hair plugs. I
                wonder what else Klemp
                does, or doesn't do, that
                is natural? Boxers, briefs,
                or commando?

                Prometheus

                dianastanley wrote:
                maybe he should try botox
                or a face lift. It would be
                a miricale that he got his
                youth back!
                Diana


                <prometheus wrote:
                >
                > Hello All,
                > This is simply more proof
                > of Eckankar's deceptions.
                >
                > It's come to my attention
                > that Klemp is still using
                > a 10-15 old photo as his
                > "Official Photo" which is
                > to be displayed at ECK
                > functions and EK Centers.
                >
                > WHY? Really, why is this
                > being done?
                >
                > Isn't Klemp comfortable
                > with his aging?
                >
                > On the front page of the
                > September, 2011 "The
                > Mystic World of ECKankar"
                > is a current photo of Klemp.
                >
                > However, if one looks at
                > the back page where "The
                > Wisdom Notes" are given
                > there is the older "Official
                > Photo" depicting a younger
                > looking Klemp.
                >
                > Is the real and present day
                > photo depicting the Outer
                > LEM while the "Official (past)
                > Photo" depicting the Inner
                > Master/Mahanta? Is that
                > Klemp's rationale for this
                > subliminal trickery?
                >
                > Really, I don't think that this
                > issue has ever been addressed
                > since ECKists aren't permitted
                > to ask such questions without
                > risking reprisals by their RESAs
                > or via the ESC (Klemp).
                >
                > But, in Eckankar, what is reality?
                > Is it anything one wants to deny
                > and imagine differently as you
                > like it?
                >
                > This photo switch is simply
                > another trick that Klemp uses
                > to cloud the minds and reasoning
                > abilities of his followers so they
                > can feel good about their religion
                > of pretend Masters, Initiations,
                > and Planes of Consciousness.
                >
                > This denial of the obvious is
                > why ECKists are comfortable
                > and passive sheep and/or are
                > chickens in the EK hen house.
                > However, on the other hand,
                > ECKists are stressed out as
                > well.
                >
                > ECKists must be Vahanas/
                > Missionary's and give Service
                > to Klemp (and Lip Service to
                > the public) in order to advance
                > and/or to maintain their status
                > as official spokespersons.
                >
                > The Lip Service is when they
                > give the "official" presentations
                > which omit facts with the guise
                > of being "too much spiritual
                > food" for the seeker to handle.
                >
                > Come on, just tell them how
                > long it will probably take them
                > to become free of Karma or
                > reach the 5th initiation! And,
                > how many more years (and
                > what's required) it should
                > take them to reach the 7th
                > initiation. Then tell them
                > how long it will be for them
                > to reach the 8th initiation...
                > maybe the RESA would know
                > that answer. LOL!
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
                >
                >
                > From Dec, 2009:
                > Isn't it strange that a "spiritual
                > master" (a Mahanta) would still
                > be using an outdated photo.
                > This shows that Klemp is attached
                > to KAL's lower plane influences.
                > This is more proof that HK has
                > fallen from SUGMAD's Grace (not
                > that he ever had it). Still, for some
                > ECKists Klemp's youthful appearance
                > attachment must be confusing.
                > Others simply turn a Blind Eye
                > to it all... they like the public
                > seeing the younger looking photo.
                > It's less embarrassing than the
                > real thing. H.I.s, especially, live
                > in a state of denial because it's
                > comfortable and convenient
                > and EK Membership has become
                > habitual and ego driven.
                >
                > {Note: Annual EK Membership
                > is actually required in order to
                > receive and keep initiations. The
                > reenrolling of one's membership
                > must become habitual or risk
                > losing the fake connection with
                > the Inner via the outer monetary
                > membership requirement. Thus,
                > EK membership is ego, as well as,
                > fear driven.}
                >
                > Prometheus
              • Diana Stanley
                I don t understand why he cares what he looks like he never hardly ever makes public appearences. Maybe he has a double to do all public pr work!!! Diana
                Message 7 of 21 , Nov 6, 2011
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                  I don't understand why he cares what he looks like he never hardly ever makes public appearences. Maybe he has a double to do all public pr work!!!
                  Diana



                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello Diana and All,
                  > At one time Klemp tried
                  > contact lens but eventually
                  > switched back to glasses.
                  > I'm told he received some
                  > criticism, from H.I.s via
                  > chelas, that contacts were
                  > more of a vanity issue than
                  > a sight/vision issue. ECKists
                  > can't have their mealy looking
                  > Mahanta project a fraudulent
                  > appearance because that
                  > would indicate other frauds
                  > might be taking place and
                  > perpetuated. LOL!
                  >
                  > However, I've also read that
                  > contacts can offer people
                  > better vision than glasses,
                  > but maybe that was just
                  > a slanted PR story to sell
                  > a product like Eckankar
                  > does.
                  >
                  > I'm assuming that this is
                  > why Klemp won't dye his
                  > hair or get hair plugs. I
                  > wonder what else Klemp
                  > does, or doesn't do, that
                  > is natural? Boxers, briefs,
                  > or commando?
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                  > dianastanley wrote:
                  > maybe he should try botox
                  > or a face lift. It would be
                  > a miricale that he got his
                  > youth back!
                  > Diana
                  >
                  >
                  > <prometheus wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hello All,
                  > > This is simply more proof
                  > > of Eckankar's deceptions.
                  > >
                  > > It's come to my attention
                  > > that Klemp is still using
                  > > a 10-15 old photo as his
                  > > "Official Photo" which is
                  > > to be displayed at ECK
                  > > functions and EK Centers.
                  > >
                  > > WHY? Really, why is this
                  > > being done?
                  > >
                  > > Isn't Klemp comfortable
                  > > with his aging?
                  > >
                  > > On the front page of the
                  > > September, 2011 "The
                  > > Mystic World of ECKankar"
                  > > is a current photo of Klemp.
                  > >
                  > > However, if one looks at
                  > > the back page where "The
                  > > Wisdom Notes" are given
                  > > there is the older "Official
                  > > Photo" depicting a younger
                  > > looking Klemp.
                  > >
                  > > Is the real and present day
                  > > photo depicting the Outer
                  > > LEM while the "Official (past)
                  > > Photo" depicting the Inner
                  > > Master/Mahanta? Is that
                  > > Klemp's rationale for this
                  > > subliminal trickery?
                  > >
                  > > Really, I don't think that this
                  > > issue has ever been addressed
                  > > since ECKists aren't permitted
                  > > to ask such questions without
                  > > risking reprisals by their RESAs
                  > > or via the ESC (Klemp).
                  > >
                  > > But, in Eckankar, what is reality?
                  > > Is it anything one wants to deny
                  > > and imagine differently as you
                  > > like it?
                  > >
                  > > This photo switch is simply
                  > > another trick that Klemp uses
                  > > to cloud the minds and reasoning
                  > > abilities of his followers so they
                  > > can feel good about their religion
                  > > of pretend Masters, Initiations,
                  > > and Planes of Consciousness.
                  > >
                  > > This denial of the obvious is
                  > > why ECKists are comfortable
                  > > and passive sheep and/or are
                  > > chickens in the EK hen house.
                  > > However, on the other hand,
                  > > ECKists are stressed out as
                  > > well.
                  > >
                  > > ECKists must be Vahanas/
                  > > Missionary's and give Service
                  > > to Klemp (and Lip Service to
                  > > the public) in order to advance
                  > > and/or to maintain their status
                  > > as official spokespersons.
                  > >
                  > > The Lip Service is when they
                  > > give the "official" presentations
                  > > which omit facts with the guise
                  > > of being "too much spiritual
                  > > food" for the seeker to handle.
                  > >
                  > > Come on, just tell them how
                  > > long it will probably take them
                  > > to become free of Karma or
                  > > reach the 5th initiation! And,
                  > > how many more years (and
                  > > what's required) it should
                  > > take them to reach the 7th
                  > > initiation. Then tell them
                  > > how long it will be for them
                  > > to reach the 8th initiation...
                  > > maybe the RESA would know
                  > > that answer. LOL!
                  > >
                  > > Prometheus
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > From Dec, 2009:
                  > > Isn't it strange that a "spiritual
                  > > master" (a Mahanta) would still
                  > > be using an outdated photo.
                  > > This shows that Klemp is attached
                  > > to KAL's lower plane influences.
                  > > This is more proof that HK has
                  > > fallen from SUGMAD's Grace (not
                  > > that he ever had it). Still, for some
                  > > ECKists Klemp's youthful appearance
                  > > attachment must be confusing.
                  > > Others simply turn a Blind Eye
                  > > to it all... they like the public
                  > > seeing the younger looking photo.
                  > > It's less embarrassing than the
                  > > real thing. H.I.s, especially, live
                  > > in a state of denial because it's
                  > > comfortable and convenient
                  > > and EK Membership has become
                  > > habitual and ego driven.
                  > >
                  > > {Note: Annual EK Membership
                  > > is actually required in order to
                  > > receive and keep initiations. The
                  > > reenrolling of one's membership
                  > > must become habitual or risk
                  > > losing the fake connection with
                  > > the Inner via the outer monetary
                  > > membership requirement. Thus,
                  > > EK membership is ego, as well as,
                  > > fear driven.}
                  > >
                  > > Prometheus
                  >
                • prometheus_973
                  Hello Diana and All, Klemp cares about the more youthful image he s projecting in the PR brochures and his official pic displayed in EK Centers and at Intros
                  Message 8 of 21 , Nov 7, 2011
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                    Hello Diana and All,
                    Klemp cares about
                    the more youthful
                    image he's projecting
                    in the PR brochures
                    and his official pic
                    displayed in EK Centers
                    and at Intros because
                    it appeals to younger
                    people more than his
                    old real life image does!

                    Thus, more suckers
                    are attracted to the
                    bait and switch packaging
                    versus the reality which
                    would repel them. LOL!

                    At a Seminar (after
                    seeing Klemp) they
                    simply decide to stay
                    until he gets done talking.
                    Klemp was never too
                    photogenic anyway but
                    now he's really getting
                    pathetic looking... as
                    a Mahanta/God!

                    Really, how can Eckists
                    believe in or talk about
                    the ECK Masters like
                    Rebazar, who are
                    supposedly over 500
                    years old and still maintain
                    a physical body, when
                    Klemp claims to be the
                    greatest and most spiritually
                    advanced Mahanta ever!
                    Yet, he's wasting away!
                    It doesn't make sense if
                    it was true! The truth is
                    there are No ECK Masters
                    and Klemp is a phony!

                    Pretend can be fun and
                    the imagination can make
                    the mundane magical,
                    it's an escape, and it can
                    be used (as lies) to explain
                    things in mythological and
                    unscientific terms because
                    science can't explain it
                    away with concrete analysis
                    and proven facts. Besides,
                    would most people listen?
                    Therefore, the ECK Masters
                    are as imagined as the
                    characters in Harry Potter,
                    or the Lord of the Rings,
                    et al.

                    Thus, if Eckankar was for
                    real Klemp wouldn't be
                    aging and rapidly! He'd
                    look like Rebazar or one
                    of the other portraits of
                    those fake ECK Masters.

                    Funny that the artist who
                    did the latest ECK Master
                    portraits made them look
                    younger than Klemp's real-
                    time current photo (not the
                    embellished portrait)! Just
                    go the eckankar.org and
                    see for yourself! It's comical!

                    Prometheus


                    dianastanley wrote:
                    I don't understand why
                    he cares what he looks
                    like he never hardly ever
                    makes public appearences.
                    Maybe he has a double
                    to do all public pr work!!!
                    Diana




                    <prometheus wrote:
                    >
                    > Hello Diana and All,
                    > At one time Klemp tried
                    > contact lens but eventually
                    > switched back to glasses.
                    > I'm told he received some
                    > criticism, from H.I.s via
                    > chelas, that contacts were
                    > more of a vanity issue than
                    > a sight/vision issue. ECKists
                    > can't have their mealy looking
                    > Mahanta project a fraudulent
                    > appearance because that
                    > would indicate other frauds
                    > might be taking place and
                    > perpetuated. LOL!
                    >
                    > However, I've also read that
                    > contacts can offer people
                    > better vision than glasses,
                    > but maybe that was just
                    > a slanted PR story to sell
                    > a product like Eckankar
                    > does.
                    >
                    > I'm assuming that this is
                    > why Klemp won't dye his
                    > hair or get hair plugs. I
                    > wonder what else Klemp
                    > does, or doesn't do, that
                    > is natural? Boxers, briefs,
                    > or commando?
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    >
                    > dianastanley wrote:
                    > maybe he should try botox
                    > or a face lift. It would be
                    > a miricale that he got his
                    > youth back!
                    > Diana
                    >
                    >
                    > <prometheus wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hello All,
                    > > This is simply more proof
                    > > of Eckankar's deceptions.
                    > >
                    > > It's come to my attention
                    > > that Klemp is still using
                    > > a 10-15 old photo as his
                    > > "Official Photo" which is
                    > > to be displayed at ECK
                    > > functions and EK Centers.
                    > >
                    > > WHY? Really, why is this
                    > > being done?
                    > >
                    > > Isn't Klemp comfortable
                    > > with his aging?
                    > >
                    > > On the front page of the
                    > > September, 2011 "The
                    > > Mystic World of ECKankar"
                    > > is a current photo of Klemp.
                    > >
                    > > However, if one looks at
                    > > the back page where "The
                    > > Wisdom Notes" are given
                    > > there is the older "Official
                    > > Photo" depicting a younger
                    > > looking Klemp.
                    > >
                    > > Is the real and present day
                    > > photo depicting the Outer
                    > > LEM while the "Official (past)
                    > > Photo" depicting the Inner
                    > > Master/Mahanta? Is that
                    > > Klemp's rationale for this
                    > > subliminal trickery?
                    > >
                    > > Really, I don't think that this
                    > > issue has ever been addressed
                    > > since ECKists aren't permitted
                    > > to ask such questions without
                    > > risking reprisals by their RESAs
                    > > or via the ESC (Klemp).
                    > >
                    > > But, in Eckankar, what is reality?
                    > > Is it anything one wants to deny
                    > > and imagine differently as you
                    > > like it?
                    > >
                    > > This photo switch is simply
                    > > another trick that Klemp uses
                    > > to cloud the minds and reasoning
                    > > abilities of his followers so they
                    > > can feel good about their religion
                    > > of pretend Masters, Initiations,
                    > > and Planes of Consciousness.
                    > >
                    > > This denial of the obvious is
                    > > why ECKists are comfortable
                    > > and passive sheep and/or are
                    > > chickens in the EK hen house.
                    > > However, on the other hand,
                    > > ECKists are stressed out as
                    > > well.
                    > >
                    > > ECKists must be Vahanas/
                    > > Missionary's and give Service
                    > > to Klemp (and Lip Service to
                    > > the public) in order to advance
                    > > and/or to maintain their status
                    > > as official spokespersons.
                    > >
                    > > The Lip Service is when they
                    > > give the "official" presentations
                    > > which omit facts with the guise
                    > > of being "too much spiritual
                    > > food" for the seeker to handle.
                    > >
                    > > Come on, just tell them how
                    > > long it will probably take them
                    > > to become free of Karma or
                    > > reach the 5th initiation! And,
                    > > how many more years (and
                    > > what's required) it should
                    > > take them to reach the 7th
                    > > initiation. Then tell them
                    > > how long it will be for them
                    > > to reach the 8th initiation...
                    > > maybe the RESA would know
                    > > that answer. LOL!
                    > >
                    > > Prometheus
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > From Dec, 2009:
                    > > Isn't it strange that a "spiritual
                    > > master" (a Mahanta) would still
                    > > be using an outdated photo.
                    > > This shows that Klemp is attached
                    > > to KAL's lower plane influences.
                    > > This is more proof that HK has
                    > > fallen from SUGMAD's Grace (not
                    > > that he ever had it). Still, for some
                    > > ECKists Klemp's youthful appearance
                    > > attachment must be confusing.
                    > > Others simply turn a Blind Eye
                    > > to it all... they like the public
                    > > seeing the younger looking photo.
                    > > It's less embarrassing than the
                    > > real thing. H.I.s, especially, live
                    > > in a state of denial because it's
                    > > comfortable and convenient
                    > > and EK Membership has become
                    > > habitual and ego driven.
                    > >
                    > > {Note: Annual EK Membership
                    > > is actually required in order to
                    > > receive and keep initiations. The
                    > > reenrolling of one's membership
                    > > must become habitual or risk
                    > > losing the fake connection with
                    > > the Inner via the outer monetary
                    > > membership requirement. Thus,
                    > > EK membership is ego, as well as,
                    > > fear driven.}
                    > >
                    > > Prometheus
                  • Diana Stanley
                    Eckankar is being reduced to sillyness. People who are trully seeking spiritual enlightenment will begin to leave. Those that are comfortable with authority
                    Message 9 of 21 , Nov 9, 2011
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                      Eckankar is being reduced to sillyness. People who are trully seeking spiritual enlightenment will begin to leave. Those that are comfortable with authority and rules and regulations will hang on.
                      Much like the old churches some people feel safe if they are told how to get to heven and avoid hell.
                      I imagin Harold is trying to incorporate the Eck teachings with christian beliefs as that is Harolds background.
                      I am afraid it is a marrage that is doomed to failure. Hopefully sooner than later.
                      Diana

                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hello Diana and All,
                      > Klemp cares about
                      > the more youthful
                      > image he's projecting
                      > in the PR brochures
                      > and his official pic
                      > displayed in EK Centers
                      > and at Intros because
                      > it appeals to younger
                      > people more than his
                      > old real life image does!
                      >
                      > Thus, more suckers
                      > are attracted to the
                      > bait and switch packaging
                      > versus the reality which
                      > would repel them. LOL!
                      >
                      > At a Seminar (after
                      > seeing Klemp) they
                      > simply decide to stay
                      > until he gets done talking.
                      > Klemp was never too
                      > photogenic anyway but
                      > now he's really getting
                      > pathetic looking... as
                      > a Mahanta/God!
                      >
                      > Really, how can Eckists
                      > believe in or talk about
                      > the ECK Masters like
                      > Rebazar, who are
                      > supposedly over 500
                      > years old and still maintain
                      > a physical body, when
                      > Klemp claims to be the
                      > greatest and most spiritually
                      > advanced Mahanta ever!
                      > Yet, he's wasting away!
                      > It doesn't make sense if
                      > it was true! The truth is
                      > there are No ECK Masters
                      > and Klemp is a phony!
                      >
                      > Pretend can be fun and
                      > the imagination can make
                      > the mundane magical,
                      > it's an escape, and it can
                      > be used (as lies) to explain
                      > things in mythological and
                      > unscientific terms because
                      > science can't explain it
                      > away with concrete analysis
                      > and proven facts. Besides,
                      > would most people listen?
                      > Therefore, the ECK Masters
                      > are as imagined as the
                      > characters in Harry Potter,
                      > or the Lord of the Rings,
                      > et al.
                      >
                      > Thus, if Eckankar was for
                      > real Klemp wouldn't be
                      > aging and rapidly! He'd
                      > look like Rebazar or one
                      > of the other portraits of
                      > those fake ECK Masters.
                      >
                      > Funny that the artist who
                      > did the latest ECK Master
                      > portraits made them look
                      > younger than Klemp's real-
                      > time current photo (not the
                      > embellished portrait)! Just
                      > go the eckankar.org and
                      > see for yourself! It's comical!
                      >
                      > Prometheus
                      >
                      >
                      > dianastanley wrote:
                      > I don't understand why
                      > he cares what he looks
                      > like he never hardly ever
                      > makes public appearences.
                      > Maybe he has a double
                      > to do all public pr work!!!
                      > Diana
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > <prometheus wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hello Diana and All,
                      > > At one time Klemp tried
                      > > contact lens but eventually
                      > > switched back to glasses.
                      > > I'm told he received some
                      > > criticism, from H.I.s via
                      > > chelas, that contacts were
                      > > more of a vanity issue than
                      > > a sight/vision issue. ECKists
                      > > can't have their mealy looking
                      > > Mahanta project a fraudulent
                      > > appearance because that
                      > > would indicate other frauds
                      > > might be taking place and
                      > > perpetuated. LOL!
                      > >
                      > > However, I've also read that
                      > > contacts can offer people
                      > > better vision than glasses,
                      > > but maybe that was just
                      > > a slanted PR story to sell
                      > > a product like Eckankar
                      > > does.
                      > >
                      > > I'm assuming that this is
                      > > why Klemp won't dye his
                      > > hair or get hair plugs. I
                      > > wonder what else Klemp
                      > > does, or doesn't do, that
                      > > is natural? Boxers, briefs,
                      > > or commando?
                      > >
                      > > Prometheus
                      > >
                      > > dianastanley wrote:
                      > > maybe he should try botox
                      > > or a face lift. It would be
                      > > a miricale that he got his
                      > > youth back!
                      > > Diana
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > <prometheus wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Hello All,
                      > > > This is simply more proof
                      > > > of Eckankar's deceptions.
                      > > >
                      > > > It's come to my attention
                      > > > that Klemp is still using
                      > > > a 10-15 old photo as his
                      > > > "Official Photo" which is
                      > > > to be displayed at ECK
                      > > > functions and EK Centers.
                      > > >
                      > > > WHY? Really, why is this
                      > > > being done?
                      > > >
                      > > > Isn't Klemp comfortable
                      > > > with his aging?
                      > > >
                      > > > On the front page of the
                      > > > September, 2011 "The
                      > > > Mystic World of ECKankar"
                      > > > is a current photo of Klemp.
                      > > >
                      > > > However, if one looks at
                      > > > the back page where "The
                      > > > Wisdom Notes" are given
                      > > > there is the older "Official
                      > > > Photo" depicting a younger
                      > > > looking Klemp.
                      > > >
                      > > > Is the real and present day
                      > > > photo depicting the Outer
                      > > > LEM while the "Official (past)
                      > > > Photo" depicting the Inner
                      > > > Master/Mahanta? Is that
                      > > > Klemp's rationale for this
                      > > > subliminal trickery?
                      > > >
                      > > > Really, I don't think that this
                      > > > issue has ever been addressed
                      > > > since ECKists aren't permitted
                      > > > to ask such questions without
                      > > > risking reprisals by their RESAs
                      > > > or via the ESC (Klemp).
                      > > >
                      > > > But, in Eckankar, what is reality?
                      > > > Is it anything one wants to deny
                      > > > and imagine differently as you
                      > > > like it?
                      > > >
                      > > > This photo switch is simply
                      > > > another trick that Klemp uses
                      > > > to cloud the minds and reasoning
                      > > > abilities of his followers so they
                      > > > can feel good about their religion
                      > > > of pretend Masters, Initiations,
                      > > > and Planes of Consciousness.
                      > > >
                      > > > This denial of the obvious is
                      > > > why ECKists are comfortable
                      > > > and passive sheep and/or are
                      > > > chickens in the EK hen house.
                      > > > However, on the other hand,
                      > > > ECKists are stressed out as
                      > > > well.
                      > > >
                      > > > ECKists must be Vahanas/
                      > > > Missionary's and give Service
                      > > > to Klemp (and Lip Service to
                      > > > the public) in order to advance
                      > > > and/or to maintain their status
                      > > > as official spokespersons.
                      > > >
                      > > > The Lip Service is when they
                      > > > give the "official" presentations
                      > > > which omit facts with the guise
                      > > > of being "too much spiritual
                      > > > food" for the seeker to handle.
                      > > >
                      > > > Come on, just tell them how
                      > > > long it will probably take them
                      > > > to become free of Karma or
                      > > > reach the 5th initiation! And,
                      > > > how many more years (and
                      > > > what's required) it should
                      > > > take them to reach the 7th
                      > > > initiation. Then tell them
                      > > > how long it will be for them
                      > > > to reach the 8th initiation...
                      > > > maybe the RESA would know
                      > > > that answer. LOL!
                      > > >
                      > > > Prometheus
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > From Dec, 2009:
                      > > > Isn't it strange that a "spiritual
                      > > > master" (a Mahanta) would still
                      > > > be using an outdated photo.
                      > > > This shows that Klemp is attached
                      > > > to KAL's lower plane influences.
                      > > > This is more proof that HK has
                      > > > fallen from SUGMAD's Grace (not
                      > > > that he ever had it). Still, for some
                      > > > ECKists Klemp's youthful appearance
                      > > > attachment must be confusing.
                      > > > Others simply turn a Blind Eye
                      > > > to it all... they like the public
                      > > > seeing the younger looking photo.
                      > > > It's less embarrassing than the
                      > > > real thing. H.I.s, especially, live
                      > > > in a state of denial because it's
                      > > > comfortable and convenient
                      > > > and EK Membership has become
                      > > > habitual and ego driven.
                      > > >
                      > > > {Note: Annual EK Membership
                      > > > is actually required in order to
                      > > > receive and keep initiations. The
                      > > > reenrolling of one's membership
                      > > > must become habitual or risk
                      > > > losing the fake connection with
                      > > > the Inner via the outer monetary
                      > > > membership requirement. Thus,
                      > > > EK membership is ego, as well as,
                      > > > fear driven.}
                      > > >
                      > > > Prometheus
                      >
                    • prometheus_973
                      Hello Diana and All, Yes, the silliness began with Twitchell. That s why Gail and Patti were always giggling about good old fuddy-duddy Paul and his conman
                      Message 10 of 21 , Nov 9, 2011
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                        Hello Diana and All,
                        Yes, the silliness began
                        with Twitchell. That's
                        why Gail and Patti were
                        always giggling about
                        good old fuddy-duddy
                        Paul and his conman
                        antics, some, to hide
                        his age [the joke was
                        on them because Paul
                        was older than they
                        thought]. Other embellishments
                        were used to promote
                        himself... and yet this
                        doesn't seem to be a
                        problem for longtime
                        H.I.s. When I found out
                        about the foundation
                        of the EK teachings and
                        the liar Twitchell I just
                        couldn't remain a follower.
                        Truth means too much
                        to me. Ask yourself,
                        "What is Truth?"

                        Klemp is as much the liar
                        as Twitchell. He rationalizes
                        it away by thinking that people
                        need something to believe
                        in and Eckankar gives them
                        something that is, at least,
                        less physically harmful to
                        the world than many other
                        religions. Of course, that's
                        only because Eckankar doesn't
                        have the members, money,
                        and power that other religions
                        have. Other than that it's
                        a fraud and a waste of time.
                        It creates delusional thinking
                        and this inhibits clarity of
                        mind and true, individual,
                        "spiritual" progress.

                        Prometheus



                        "Diana Stanley" wrote:
                        Eckankar is being reduced
                        to sillyness. People who
                        are trully seeking spiritual
                        enlightenment will begin
                        to leave. Those that are
                        comfortable with authority
                        and rules and regulations
                        will hang on.

                        Much like the old churches
                        some people feel safe if
                        they are told how to get
                        to heven and avoid hell.
                        I imagin Harold is trying
                        to incorporate the Eck
                        teachings with christian
                        beliefs as that is Harolds
                        background.

                        I am afraid it is a marrage
                        that is doomed to failure.
                        Hopefully sooner than later.
                        Diana


                        <prometheus wrote:
                        >
                        > Hello Diana and All,
                        > Klemp cares about
                        > the more youthful
                        > image he's projecting
                        > in the PR brochures
                        > and his official pic
                        > displayed in EK Centers
                        > and at Intros because
                        > it appeals to younger
                        > people more than his
                        > old real life image does!
                        >
                        > Thus, more suckers
                        > are attracted to the
                        > bait and switch packaging
                        > versus the reality which
                        > would repel them. LOL!
                        >
                        > At a Seminar (after
                        > seeing Klemp) they
                        > simply decide to stay
                        > until he gets done talking.
                        > Klemp was never too
                        > photogenic anyway but
                        > now he's really getting
                        > pathetic looking... as
                        > a Mahanta/God!
                        >
                        > Really, how can Eckists
                        > believe in or talk about
                        > the ECK Masters like
                        > Rebazar, who are
                        > supposedly over 500
                        > years old and still maintain
                        > a physical body, when
                        > Klemp claims to be the
                        > greatest and most spiritually
                        > advanced Mahanta ever!
                        > Yet, he's wasting away!
                        > It doesn't make sense if
                        > it was true! The truth is
                        > there are No ECK Masters
                        > and Klemp is a phony!
                        >
                        > Pretend can be fun and
                        > the imagination can make
                        > the mundane magical,
                        > it's an escape, and it can
                        > be used (as lies) to explain
                        > things in mythological and
                        > unscientific terms because
                        > science can't explain it
                        > away with concrete analysis
                        > and proven facts. Besides,
                        > would most people listen?
                        > Therefore, the ECK Masters
                        > are as imagined as the
                        > characters in Harry Potter,
                        > or the Lord of the Rings,
                        > et al.
                        >
                        > Thus, if Eckankar was for
                        > real Klemp wouldn't be
                        > aging and rapidly! He'd
                        > look like Rebazar or one
                        > of the other portraits of
                        > those fake ECK Masters.
                        >
                        > Funny that the artist who
                        > did the latest ECK Master
                        > portraits made them look
                        > younger than Klemp's real-
                        > time current photo (not the
                        > embellished portrait)! Just
                        > go the eckankar.org and
                        > see for yourself! It's comical!
                        >
                        > Prometheus
                        >
                        >
                        > dianastanley wrote:
                        > I don't understand why
                        > he cares what he looks
                        > like he never hardly ever
                        > makes public appearences.
                        > Maybe he has a double
                        > to do all public pr work!!!
                        > Diana
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > <prometheus wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Hello Diana and All,
                        > > At one time Klemp tried
                        > > contact lens but eventually
                        > > switched back to glasses.
                        > > I'm told he received some
                        > > criticism, from H.I.s via
                        > > chelas, that contacts were
                        > > more of a vanity issue than
                        > > a sight/vision issue. ECKists
                        > > can't have their mealy looking
                        > > Mahanta project a fraudulent
                        > > appearance because that
                        > > would indicate other frauds
                        > > might be taking place and
                        > > perpetuated. LOL!
                        > >
                        > > However, I've also read that
                        > > contacts can offer people
                        > > better vision than glasses,
                        > > but maybe that was just
                        > > a slanted PR story to sell
                        > > a product like Eckankar
                        > > does.
                        > >
                        > > I'm assuming that this is
                        > > why Klemp won't dye his
                        > > hair or get hair plugs. I
                        > > wonder what else Klemp
                        > > does, or doesn't do, that
                        > > is natural? Boxers, briefs,
                        > > or commando?
                        > >
                        > > Prometheus
                        > >
                        > > dianastanley wrote:
                        > > maybe he should try botox
                        > > or a face lift. It would be
                        > > a miricale that he got his
                        > > youth back!
                        > > Diana
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > <prometheus wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Hello All,
                        > > > This is simply more proof
                        > > > of Eckankar's deceptions.
                        > > >
                        > > > It's come to my attention
                        > > > that Klemp is still using
                        > > > a 10-15 old photo as his
                        > > > "Official Photo" which is
                        > > > to be displayed at ECK
                        > > > functions and EK Centers.
                        > > >
                        > > > WHY? Really, why is this
                        > > > being done?
                        > > >
                        > > > Isn't Klemp comfortable
                        > > > with his aging?
                        > > >
                        > > > On the front page of the
                        > > > September, 2011 "The
                        > > > Mystic World of ECKankar"
                        > > > is a current photo of Klemp.
                        > > >
                        > > > However, if one looks at
                        > > > the back page where "The
                        > > > Wisdom Notes" are given
                        > > > there is the older "Official
                        > > > Photo" depicting a younger
                        > > > looking Klemp.
                        > > >
                        > > > Is the real and present day
                        > > > photo depicting the Outer
                        > > > LEM while the "Official (past)
                        > > > Photo" depicting the Inner
                        > > > Master/Mahanta? Is that
                        > > > Klemp's rationale for this
                        > > > subliminal trickery?
                        > > >
                        > > > Really, I don't think that this
                        > > > issue has ever been addressed
                        > > > since ECKists aren't permitted
                        > > > to ask such questions without
                        > > > risking reprisals by their RESAs
                        > > > or via the ESC (Klemp).
                        > > >
                        > > > But, in Eckankar, what is reality?
                        > > > Is it anything one wants to deny
                        > > > and imagine differently as you
                        > > > like it?
                        > > >
                        > > > This photo switch is simply
                        > > > another trick that Klemp uses
                        > > > to cloud the minds and reasoning
                        > > > abilities of his followers so they
                        > > > can feel good about their religion
                        > > > of pretend Masters, Initiations,
                        > > > and Planes of Consciousness.
                        > > >
                        > > > This denial of the obvious is
                        > > > why ECKists are comfortable
                        > > > and passive sheep and/or are
                        > > > chickens in the EK hen house.
                        > > > However, on the other hand,
                        > > > ECKists are stressed out as
                        > > > well.
                        > > >
                        > > > ECKists must be Vahanas/
                        > > > Missionary's and give Service
                        > > > to Klemp (and Lip Service to
                        > > > the public) in order to advance
                        > > > and/or to maintain their status
                        > > > as official spokespersons.
                        > > >
                        > > > The Lip Service is when they
                        > > > give the "official" presentations
                        > > > which omit facts with the guise
                        > > > of being "too much spiritual
                        > > > food" for the seeker to handle.
                        > > >
                        > > > Come on, just tell them how
                        > > > long it will probably take them
                        > > > to become free of Karma or
                        > > > reach the 5th initiation! And,
                        > > > how many more years (and
                        > > > what's required) it should
                        > > > take them to reach the 7th
                        > > > initiation. Then tell them
                        > > > how long it will be for them
                        > > > to reach the 8th initiation...
                        > > > maybe the RESA would know
                        > > > that answer. LOL!
                        > > >
                        > > > Prometheus
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > From Dec, 2009:
                        > > > Isn't it strange that a "spiritual
                        > > > master" (a Mahanta) would still
                        > > > be using an outdated photo.
                        > > > This shows that Klemp is attached
                        > > > to KAL's lower plane influences.
                        > > > This is more proof that HK has
                        > > > fallen from SUGMAD's Grace (not
                        > > > that he ever had it). Still, for some
                        > > > ECKists Klemp's youthful appearance
                        > > > attachment must be confusing.
                        > > > Others simply turn a Blind Eye
                        > > > to it all... they like the public
                        > > > seeing the younger looking photo.
                        > > > It's less embarrassing than the
                        > > > real thing. H.I.s, especially, live
                        > > > in a state of denial because it's
                        > > > comfortable and convenient
                        > > > and EK Membership has become
                        > > > habitual and ego driven.
                        > > >
                        > > > {Note: Annual EK Membership
                        > > > is actually required in order to
                        > > > receive and keep initiations. The
                        > > > reenrolling of one's membership
                        > > > must become habitual or risk
                        > > > losing the fake connection with
                        > > > the Inner via the outer monetary
                        > > > membership requirement. Thus,
                        > > > EK membership is ego, as well as,
                        > > > fear driven.}
                        > > >
                        > > > Prometheus
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