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Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp's Vanity - His Wisdom Notes and EK Brochure Photo

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  • etznab@aol.com
    Prometheus, I believe the term mahanta consciousness evolved over time according to descriptions given to it via Eckankar. Like, what was it? 1969 before
    Message 1 of 21 , Dec 20, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      Prometheus,

      I believe the term "mahanta consciousness"
      evolved over time according to descriptions
      given to it via Eckankar. Like, what was it?
      1969 before Paul mentioned "mahanta" in
      a wisdom note and The Flute of God? The
      fuller descriptions of L.E.M. & Mahanta did
      not appear until the last couple years in the
      life of Paul Twitchell when he set out to ex-
      plain them in the Shariyat books, I believe.
      1970-1971?

      In some earlier books with Rebazar Tarzs
      I don't know that the word "mahanta" was
      even given much mention, if at all. I think
      the term "spiritual traveler" was mentioned
      more.

      Also, I have to consider the appearance in
      Paul T's early dictionary for the term, and
      where so many people (some legendary)
      from history were said to be the mahanta
      consciousness as vehicle for the Sugmad
      as it appeared to .... (in so many words),
      etc.

      Jesus and Krishna were both mentioned.
      And yet, Jesus is generally understood -
      in Eckankar history - to have been a 2nd
      initiate only.

      So what initiation level is the "mahanta
      consciousness"? I couldn't tell you. All I
      can say (at this point) is the definitions
      have apparently evolved over the years. I
      believe that when the teachings became
      a religion in July 1970 that "mahanta" &
      L.E.M. merged to become identified as
      the same thing around that time. Since I
      suspect Eckankar had to be defined for
      legal purposes and one of the things they
      ask you (IMO) is: What is the title of the
      person in charge & who is that person?

      This is speculation on my part. Paul did
      mention at least 3 "levels" of Mahanta -
      I believe - in the Shariyat. Including the
      "Eternal Mahanta" and "Historical Maha-
      anta". All of these merged into the head
      of the religion and organization of Eck-
      ankar at some point, if you ask me. It is
      very hard for the organization to separate
      them from the leader of Eckankar, IMO,
      as that might suggest the physical body,
      the vehicle and leader of Eckankar is but
      a limited form of "highest consciousness".
      Remember the last part for the definition
      for Mahanta Consciousnes used to be:

      "[....] a state of God consciousness which
      is beyond the titles given in religions which
      designate states of consciousness; the
      highest of all states of consciousness."

      [See: Paul Twitchell Dictionary]

      It means not so much of anything to me
      what appears beside the definition(s) for
      "mahanta" today unless I can prove that
      information to be true. I think Paul said &
      wrote a lot of stuff. I also think he exagg-
      erated in some places. Besides that I do
      not see how a highest state of conscious-
      ness can be identified with a human and
      limited vehicle. I'll give you an example.
      Suppose a leader of Eckankar has / had
      a physical disability of some kind. Even
      suppose a leader died. How can human
      beings limited by the physical senses &
      human mortality equate with a "highest
      state of consciousness"? Or, the highest?
      Especially one such as called "Eternal
      Mahanta" present from the beginning of
      time?

      Some things (including the highest of all
      states of consciousness) became at one
      point identified with a single human being,
      IMO. This is what I suspect, at least.

      Etznab


      -----Original Message-----
      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sun, Dec 20, 2009 2:50 pm
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp's Vanity - His Wisdom
      Notes and EK Brochure Photo

       
      Hello Etznab,
      You said, "Wasn't the far ancient past
      like some kind of "Golden Age" anyway?
      Compared to today?"

      I don't think so, but it's all relevant to
      who you are and where you are and
      when you were there, as well as, one's
      state of mind. Some people are experiencing
      the "Golden Age" now while others have
      experienced their "Golden Age" in a past
      lifetime. It doesn't necessarily have to
      involve the consciousness of world society...
      only yours and from your perspective.
      All else is illusion and a test for Soul.
      However, the knowledge of true
      history is an aide for us to expand our
      current awareness and to help made
      it better for those who come after us.

      "Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
      truth escape us? How might that have happ-
      ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
      in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
      was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
      untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
      fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
      ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
      blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
      as literally true."

      One can look at different stages and timeframes
      of any society and see where the past was
      better, in some areas, and worse in other
      areas.

      Censorship has always been a control tactic
      used by those in power and how it's used has
      varied. ECKankar has censorship too, and most
      H.I.s know what many of the boundaries are.
      Why censorship is condoned is related to having
      an "EK membership card." One has to follow
      the rules and be a part of the herd. That's why
      many H.I.s turn a blind-eye and deaf-ear to
      most of it in order to have ECKankar work for
      them as it is with any religious belief system.
      Blind Faith, Narrow Thinking, and the constant
      use of the Imagination are key for EK to "work."

      And, after all, Why doesn't Klemp have PT's
      historic book "Difficulties Of Becoming The
      Living ECK Master" reprinted by ECKankar?
      It's because Klemp can't handle the truth
      that it would reveal nor be able to deal with
      the questions and doubt that would ensue.
      Thus, we have censorship which is a negative
      effect caused by Klemp's negative (lower
      KAL plane) fears and deceit!

      Prometheus

      etznab wrote:
      [....] Even in some of the temples people employed
      inventions for the manifestation of apparent miracles.
      What they got in return were donations. Of course,
      they didn't tell people the real source of the miracles.
      Otherwise donations might become less. [....]"

      Something from the description of the movie I saw
      where it documented various forms of deception that
      were employed to make miracles appear to happen
      using different forms of technology. This is where it
      appears that science was used to promote ideas of
      miracle-working gods existing behind the scenes. It
      was a perversion of not only religion, but of science
      as well. In my opinion:

      "Set firmly at the intersection of religion, science
      and commerce, the latest episode of ANCIENT
      DISCOVERIES travels to Rome and Greece to
      explore the commissioning, fabrication and pre-
      sentation of marvels meant to instill awe and draw
      hordes of deep-pocketed devotees. You will be
      amazed to learn how the greatest minds of the age
      were turned to the construction of what were little
      more than parlor tricks, albeit enormously sophist-
      icated and impressive ones."

      http://shop.history.com/detail.php?p=69989&ecid=SEO-0000046&pa=SEO-SSP

      I believe that program appeared on the History
      Channel some time back.

      Add to this the fact people have fabricated even
      ancient artifacts to frauduently propagate church
      history, have told stories that were mythological
      and / or symbolic - but accepted as literal truth,
      used teachings and quotes from the past which
      were fragmentary, little understood, and / or in a
      language nobody today completely understands,
      etc., and I see ample reason to be skeptical. To
      investigate, examine and even question "outer"
      forms of teachings - from science to religion.

      Today it appears ironic how religion and science
      are apparently divided, when many have argued
      it was not always the case. Col. James Church-
      ward speaking about "religion" in Lemuria gives
      an opinion that religion was described in terms
      a child could understand. Also, that religion and
      science were not two separate things in the very
      beginning. In fact, it is my belief, religion was
      described in "scientific" terms then because the
      people knew how both were connected.

      So, when science today is used to investigate,
      examine and, in some cases expose religious
      fraud I think it helps to remember how science
      was not always the record of ignorance about
      how things work that is in existence today.

      And, in my opinion, some people from earlier
      times may have been much more advanced,
      not less advanced (generally), compared with
      people living today. Looking at remains of the
      past through a modern (ignorant of the past)
      lens and portraying them as less civilized,
      less knowledgeable and less wise is (IMO) a
      major insult to history. I'm talking particularly
      about the ancient and far ancient past. Times
      when monuments were constructed and tech-
      nology existed that people today are still try-
      ing to fathom.

      Wasn't the far ancient past like some kind of
      "Golden Age" anyway? Compared to today?
      Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
      truth escape us? How might that have happ-
      ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
      in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
      was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
      untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
      fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
      ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
      blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
      as literally true.

      Etznab
    • prometheus_973
      You make some good points Etznab. I would say that the Roman God Jupiter was an Astral Plane God that was created by the Romans. Then again, I think that all
      Message 2 of 21 , Dec 20, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        You make some good points Etznab.
        I would say that the Roman God Jupiter
        was an Astral Plane God that was created
        by the Romans. Then again, I think that
        all of those Gods that religions worship
        have been created by men. Is it no wonder,
        then, that in PT's Eckankar Dictionary
        and in Klemp's 1998 EK Lexicon that they
        both state that the Roman God "Jupiter
        was the Mahanta Consciousness to the
        Romans." Thus, by definition, the Mahanta
        is also a 2nd Plane God and is, therefore,
        of the Astral Plane of Consciousness which
        is ruled by KAL (Satan, devil).

        Prometheus


        etznab wrote:

        rometheus,

        I believe the term "mahanta consciousness"
        evolved over time according to descriptions
        given to it via Eckankar. Like, what was it?
        1969 before Paul mentioned "mahanta" in
        a wisdom note and The Flute of God? The
        fuller descriptions of L.E.M. & Mahanta did
        not appear until the last couple years in the
        life of Paul Twitchell when he set out to ex-
        plain them in the Shariyat books, I believe.
        1970-1971?

        In some earlier books with Rebazar Tarzs
        I don't know that the word "mahanta" was
        even given much mention, if at all. I think
        the term "spiritual traveler" was mentioned
        more.

        Also, I have to consider the appearance in
        Paul T's early dictionary for the term, and
        where so many people (some legendary)
        from history were said to be the mahanta
        consciousness as vehicle for the Sugmad
        as it appeared to .... (in so many words),
        etc.

        Jesus and Krishna were both mentioned.
        And yet, Jesus is generally understood -
        in Eckankar history - to have been a 2nd
        initiate only.

        So what initiation level is the "mahanta
        consciousness"? I couldn't tell you. All I
        can say (at this point) is the definitions
        have apparently evolved over the years. I
        believe that when the teachings became
        a religion in July 1970 that "mahanta" &
        L.E.M. merged to become identified as
        the same thing around that time. Since I
        suspect Eckankar had to be defined for
        legal purposes and one of the things they
        ask you (IMO) is: What is the title of the
        person in charge & who is that person?

        This is speculation on my part. Paul did
        mention at least 3 "levels" of Mahanta -
        I believe - in the Shariyat. Including the
        "Eternal Mahanta" and "Historical Maha-
        anta". All of these merged into the head
        of the religion and organization of Eck-
        ankar at some point, if you ask me. It is
        very hard for the organization to separate
        them from the leader of Eckankar, IMO,
        as that might suggest the physical body,
        the vehicle and leader of Eckankar is but
        a limited form of "highest consciousness".
        Remember the last part for the definition
        for Mahanta Consciousnes used to be:

        "[....] a state of God consciousness which
        is beyond the titles given in religions which
        designate states of consciousness; the
        highest of all states of consciousness."

        [See: Paul Twitchell Dictionary]

        It means not so much of anything to me
        what appears beside the definition(s) for
        "mahanta" today unless I can prove that
        information to be true. I think Paul said &
        wrote a lot of stuff. I also think he exagg-
        erated in some places. Besides that I do
        not see how a highest state of conscious-
        ness can be identified with a human and
        limited vehicle. I'll give you an example.
        Suppose a leader of Eckankar has / had
        a physical disability of some kind. Even
        suppose a leader died. How can human
        beings limited by the physical senses &
        human mortality equate with a "highest
        state of consciousness"? Or, the highest?
        Especially one such as called "Eternal
        Mahanta" present from the beginning of
        time?

        Some things (including the highest of all
        states of consciousness) became at one
        point identified with a single human being,
        IMO. This is what I suspect, at least.

        Etznab


        prometheus wrote:
        Hello Etznab,
        You said, "Wasn't the far ancient past
        like some kind of "Golden Age" anyway?
        Compared to today?"

        I don't think so, but it's all relevant to
        who you are and where you are and
        when you were there, as well as, one's
        state of mind. Some people are experiencing
        the "Golden Age" now while others have
        experienced their "Golden Age" in a past
        lifetime. It doesn't necessarily have to
        involve the consciousness of world society...
        only yours and from your perspective.
        All else is illusion and a test for Soul.
        However, the knowledge of true
        history is an aide for us to expand our
        current awareness and to help made
        it better for those who come after us.

        "Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
        truth escape us? How might that have happ-
        ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
        in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
        was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
        untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
        fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
        ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
        blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
        as literally true."

        One can look at different stages and timeframes
        of any society and see where the past was
        better, in some areas, and worse in other
        areas.

        Censorship has always been a control tactic
        used by those in power and how it's used has
        varied. ECKankar has censorship too, and most
        H.I.s know what many of the boundaries are.
        Why censorship is condoned is related to having
        an "EK membership card." One has to follow
        the rules and be a part of the herd. That's why
        many H.I.s turn a blind-eye and deaf-ear to
        most of it in order to have ECKankar work for
        them as it is with any religious belief system.
        Blind Faith, Narrow Thinking, and the constant
        use of the Imagination are key for EK to "work."

        And, after all, Why doesn't Klemp have PT's
        historic book "Difficulties Of Becoming The
        Living ECK Master" reprinted by ECKankar?
        It's because Klemp can't handle the truth
        that it would reveal nor be able to deal with
        the questions and doubt that would ensue.
        Thus, we have censorship which is a negative
        effect caused by Klemp's negative (lower
        KAL plane) fears and deceit!

        Prometheus

        etznab wrote:
        [....] Even in some of the temples people employed
        inventions for the manifestation of apparent miracles.
        What they got in return were donations. Of course,
        they didn't tell people the real source of the miracles.
        Otherwise donations might become less. [....]"

        Something from the description of the movie I saw
        where it documented various forms of deception that
        were employed to make miracles appear to happen
        using different forms of technology. This is where it
        appears that science was used to promote ideas of
        miracle-working gods existing behind the scenes. It
        was a perversion of not only religion, but of science
        as well. In my opinion:

        "Set firmly at the intersection of religion, science
        and commerce, the latest episode of ANCIENT
        DISCOVERIES travels to Rome and Greece to
        explore the commissioning, fabrication and pre-
        sentation of marvels meant to instill awe and draw
        hordes of deep-pocketed devotees. You will be
        amazed to learn how the greatest minds of the age
        were turned to the construction of what were little
        more than parlor tricks, albeit enormously sophist-
        icated and impressive ones."

        http://shop.history.com/detail.php?p=69989&ecid=SEO-0000046&pa=SEO-SSP

        I believe that program appeared on the History
        Channel some time back.

        Add to this the fact people have fabricated even
        ancient artifacts to frauduently propagate church
        history, have told stories that were mythological
        and / or symbolic - but accepted as literal truth,
        used teachings and quotes from the past which
        were fragmentary, little understood, and / or in a
        language nobody today completely understands,
        etc., and I see ample reason to be skeptical. To
        investigate, examine and even question "outer"
        forms of teachings - from science to religion.

        Today it appears ironic how religion and science
        are apparently divided, when many have argued
        it was not always the case. Col. James Church-
        ward speaking about "religion" in Lemuria gives
        an opinion that religion was described in terms
        a child could understand. Also, that religion and
        science were not two separate things in the very
        beginning. In fact, it is my belief, religion was
        described in "scientific" terms then because the
        people knew how both were connected.

        So, when science today is used to investigate,
        examine and, in some cases expose religious
        fraud I think it helps to remember how science
        was not always the record of ignorance about
        how things work that is in existence today.

        And, in my opinion, some people from earlier
        times may have been much more advanced,
        not less advanced (generally), compared with
        people living today. Looking at remains of the
        past through a modern (ignorant of the past)
        lens and portraying them as less civilized,
        less knowledgeable and less wise is (IMO) a
        major insult to history. I'm talking particularly
        about the ancient and far ancient past. Times
        when monuments were constructed and tech-
        nology existed that people today are still try-
        ing to fathom.

        Wasn't the far ancient past like some kind of
        "Golden Age" anyway? Compared to today?
        Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
        truth escape us? How might that have happ-
        ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
        in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
        was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
        untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
        fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
        ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
        blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
        as literally true.

        Etznab
      • etznab@aol.com
        The words as it appeared to are interesting to me in those definitions for mahanta consciousness . This suggests to me that the M.C. can appear to people
        Message 3 of 21 , Dec 21, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          The words "as it appeared to" are interesting to me
          in those definitions for "mahanta consciousness".

          This suggests to me that the "M.C." can appear to
          people under so many different forms. Like Jesus,
          Krishna, Jupiter, etc.

          Also interesting was how Krishna was described in
          somewhat negative terms by both Julian Johnson &
          Paul Twitchell. At other times the description is not
          so negative.

          In about the 1970s though, Paul appears to elaborate
          further about "mahanta". He describes the "historical"
          and "eternal" mahantas. I believe. There was a third
          in the group (trinity) as well.

          Perhaps Paul Twitchell, Darwin Gross and Harold K.
          fit into the category of "historical" mahanta? (Right
          along there with Jesus, Jupiter and Krishna, etc.?)

          Of course some of those characters are composed
          of myths and the literal history dubious and far from
          reality in some places. IMO.

          BTW, I see no entry for "Eternal Mahanta" and / or
          "Historical Mahanta" in Harold Klemp & Eckankar's
          Lexicon. I don't believe they have an entry in Paul T.
          Eckankar dictionary either.

          I believe the Eckankar dictionary came out in 1973
          and after Paul Twitchell was already dead. However,
          I believe it was in Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad (1970?) that
          Paul elaborated on "mahanta". I will have to check
          to see whether Darwin Gross or Harold Klemp wrote
          about eternal, or historical mahantas and the reason
          for illustrating them.

          Etznab


          -----Original Message-----
          From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sun, Dec 20, 2009 10:37 pm
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp's Vanity - His Wisdom
          Notes and EK Brochure Photo

           
          You make some good points Etznab.
          I would say that the Roman God Jupiter
          was an Astral Plane God that was created
          by the Romans. Then again, I think that
          all of those Gods that religions worship
          have been created by men. Is it no wonder,
          then, that in PT's Eckankar Dictionary
          and in Klemp's 1998 EK Lexicon that they
          both state that the Roman God "Jupiter
          was the Mahanta Consciousness to the
          Romans." Thus, by definition, the Mahanta
          is also a 2nd Plane God and is, therefore,
          of the Astral Plane of Consciousness which
          is ruled by KAL (Satan, devil).

          Prometheus

          etznab wrote:

          rometheus,

          I believe the term "mahanta consciousness"
          evolved over time according to descriptions
          given to it via Eckankar. Like, what was it?
          1969 before Paul mentioned "mahanta" in
          a wisdom note and The Flute of God? The
          fuller descriptions of L.E.M. & Mahanta did
          not appear until the last couple years in the
          life of Paul Twitchell when he set out to ex-
          plain them in the Shariyat books, I believe.
          1970-1971?

          In some earlier books with Rebazar Tarzs
          I don't know that the word "mahanta" was
          even given much mention, if at all. I think
          the term "spiritual traveler" was mentioned
          more.

          Also, I have to consider the appearance in
          Paul T's early dictionary for the term, and
          where so many people (some legendary)
          from history were said to be the mahanta
          consciousness as vehicle for the Sugmad
          as it appeared to .... (in so many words),
          etc.

          Jesus and Krishna were both mentioned.
          And yet, Jesus is generally understood -
          in Eckankar history - to have been a 2nd
          initiate only.

          So what initiation level is the "mahanta
          consciousness"? I couldn't tell you. All I
          can say (at this point) is the definitions
          have apparently evolved over the years. I
          believe that when the teachings became
          a religion in July 1970 that "mahanta" &
          L.E.M. merged to become identified as
          the same thing around that time. Since I
          suspect Eckankar had to be defined for
          legal purposes and one of the things they
          ask you (IMO) is: What is the title of the
          person in charge & who is that person?

          This is speculation on my part. Paul did
          mention at least 3 "levels" of Mahanta -
          I believe - in the Shariyat. Including the
          "Eternal Mahanta" and "Historical Maha-
          anta". All of these merged into the head
          of the religion and organization of Eck-
          ankar at some point, if you ask me. It is
          very hard for the organization to separate
          them from the leader of Eckankar, IMO,
          as that might suggest the physical body,
          the vehicle and leader of Eckankar is but
          a limited form of "highest consciousness".
          Remember the last part for the definition
          for Mahanta Consciousnes used to be:

          "[....] a state of God consciousness which
          is beyond the titles given in religions which
          designate states of consciousness; the
          highest of all states of consciousness."

          [See: Paul Twitchell Dictionary]

          It means not so much of anything to me
          what appears beside the definition(s) for
          "mahanta" today unless I can prove that
          information to be true. I think Paul said &
          wrote a lot of stuff. I also think he exagg-
          erated in some places. Besides that I do
          not see how a highest state of conscious-
          ness can be identified with a human and
          limited vehicle. I'll give you an example.
          Suppose a leader of Eckankar has / had
          a physical disability of some kind. Even
          suppose a leader died. How can human
          beings limited by the physical senses &
          human mortality equate with a "highest
          state of consciousness"? Or, the highest?
          Especially one such as called "Eternal
          Mahanta" present from the beginning of
          time?

          Some things (including the highest of all
          states of consciousness) became at one
          point identified with a single human being,
          IMO. This is what I suspect, at least.

          Etznab

          prometheus wrote:
          Hello Etznab,
          You said, "Wasn't the far ancient past
          like some kind of "Golden Age" anyway?
          Compared to today?"

          I don't think so, but it's all relevant to
          who you are and where you are and
          when you were there, as well as, one's
          state of mind. Some people are experiencing
          the "Golden Age" now while others have
          experienced their "Golden Age" in a past
          lifetime. It doesn't necessarily have to
          involve the consciousness of world society...
          only yours and from your perspective.
          All else is illusion and a test for Soul.
          However, the knowledge of true
          history is an aide for us to expand our
          current awareness and to help made
          it better for those who come after us.

          "Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
          truth escape us? How might that have happ-
          ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
          in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
          was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
          untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
          fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
          ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
          blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
          as literally true."

          One can look at different stages and timeframes
          of any society and see where the past was
          better, in some areas, and worse in other
          areas.

          Censorship has always been a control tactic
          used by those in power and how it's used has
          varied. ECKankar has censorship too, and most
          H.I.s know what many of the boundaries are.
          Why censorship is condoned is related to having
          an "EK membership card." One has to follow
          the rules and be a part of the herd. That's why
          many H.I.s turn a blind-eye and deaf-ear to
          most of it in order to have ECKankar work for
          them as it is with any religious belief system.
          Blind Faith, Narrow Thinking, and the constant
          use of the Imagination are key for EK to "work."

          And, after all, Why doesn't Klemp have PT's
          historic book "Difficulties Of Becoming The
          Living ECK Master" reprinted by ECKankar?
          It's because Klemp can't handle the truth
          that it would reveal nor be able to deal with
          the questions and doubt that would ensue.
          Thus, we have censorship which is a negative
          effect caused by Klemp's negative (lower
          KAL plane) fears and deceit!

          Prometheus

          etznab wrote:
          [....] Even in some of the temples people employed
          inventions for the manifestation of apparent miracles.
          What they got in return were donations. Of course,
          they didn't tell people the real source of the miracles.
          Otherwise donations might become less. [....]"

          Something from the description of the movie I saw
          where it documented various forms of deception that
          were employed to make miracles appear to happen
          using different forms of technology. This is where it
          appears that science was used to promote ideas of
          miracle-working gods existing behind the scenes. It
          was a perversion of not only religion, but of science
          as well. In my opinion:

          "Set firmly at the intersection of religion, science
          and commerce, the latest episode of ANCIENT
          DISCOVERIES travels to Rome and Greece to
          explore the commissioning, fabrication and pre-
          sentation of marvels meant to instill awe and draw
          hordes of deep-pocketed devotees. You will be
          amazed to learn how the greatest minds of the age
          were turned to the construction of what were little
          more than parlor tricks, albeit enormously sophist-
          icated and impressive ones."

          http://shop.history.com/detail.php?p=69989&amp;ecid=SEO-0000046&pa=SEO-SSP

          I believe that program appeared on the History
          Channel some time back.

          Add to this the fact people have fabricated even
          ancient artifacts to frauduently propagate church
          history, have told stories that were mythological
          and / or symbolic - but accepted as literal truth,
          used teachings and quotes from the past which
          were fragmentary, little understood, and / or in a
          language nobody today completely understands,
          etc., and I see ample reason to be skeptical. To
          investigate, examine and even question "outer"
          forms of teachings - from science to religion.

          Today it appears ironic how religion and science
          are apparently divided, when many have argued
          it was not always the case. Col. James Church-
          ward speaking about "religion" in Lemuria gives
          an opinion that religion was described in terms
          a child could understand. Also, that religion and
          science were not two separate things in the very
          beginning. In fact, it is my belief, religion was
          described in "scientific" terms then because the
          people knew how both were connected.

          So, when science today is used to investigate,
          examine and, in some cases expose religious
          fraud I think it helps to remember how science
          was not always the record of ignorance about
          how things work that is in existence today.

          And, in my opinion, some people from earlier
          times may have been much more advanced,
          not less advanced (generally), compared with
          people living today. Looking at remains of the
          past through a modern (ignorant of the past)
          lens and portraying them as less civilized,
          less knowledgeable and less wise is (IMO) a
          major insult to history. I'm talking particularly
          about the ancient and far ancient past. Times
          when monuments were constructed and tech-
          nology existed that people today are still try-
          ing to fathom.

          Wasn't the far ancient past like some kind of
          "Golden Age" anyway? Compared to today?
          Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
          truth escape us? How might that have happ-
          ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
          in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
          was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
          untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
          fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
          ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
          blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
          as literally true.

          Etznab
        • prometheus_973
          You re right! Klemp has said that, Jupiter was the Mahanta Consciousness as it appeared to the Romans, or as it appears to EKists via the LEM! BTW- The
          Message 4 of 21 , Dec 21, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            You're right! Klemp has said that, "Jupiter
            was the 'Mahanta Consciousness' as it appeared
            to the Romans," or "as it appears" to EKists
            via the LEM!

            BTW- The term you were probably looking for
            is: "Adi-Mahanta. The primordial Mahanta. The
            line of Mastership begun with RAMA, the first
            world Savior, which has been handed down through
            the centuries by the ECK Masters via Oral Secret
            Teachings to those who were Initiated into the
            Order of the Vairagi." (EK Lexicon, 1998, pg. 3)

            This is interesting because this same "Rama"
            is an Indian God who HK claims "brought the
            ECK to India and later to the Aryans, the Fifth
            Root Race." So, the First Mahanta only came
            on-the-scene during the time of the Fifth Root
            Race. And, this title and Consciousness was created
            by the Vairagi Masters and not by Sugmad directly
            (pg.172).

            Now, if someone were to look up "Aryans" in
            HK's 1998 EK Lexicon they would see that this
            is the current ruling race. BTW- "RAMA" was not
            listed as being a Mahanta in the EK Lexicon...
            only a LEM. Why wouldn't Klemp list him as
            a (Full) Mahanta? Maybe he's more detailed in
            the new EK Lexicon and has done another
            Tweak (reedit).

            However, the truth is that Twitchell created
            Eckankar's Mahanta circa Jan. 1, 1969. And,
            "Mahanta" actually means "monastery head."
            Marman and many other EKists know this, but
            for Eckankar to work as a belief system one
            has to have "faith" and toss reason aside! This
            is how religions work... No Thinking is needed!

            Prometheus




            etznab wrote:

            The words "as it appeared to" are interesting to me
            in those definitions for "mahanta consciousness".

            This suggests to me that the "M.C." can appear to
            people under so many different forms. Like Jesus,
            Krishna, Jupiter, etc.

            Also interesting was how Krishna was described in
            somewhat negative terms by both Julian Johnson &
            Paul Twitchell. At other times the description is not
            so negative.

            In about the 1970s though, Paul appears to elaborate
            further about "mahanta". He describes the "historical"
            and "eternal" mahantas. I believe. There was a third
            in the group (trinity) as well.

            Perhaps Paul Twitchell, Darwin Gross and Harold K.
            fit into the category of "historical" mahanta? (Right
            along there with Jesus, Jupiter and Krishna, etc.?)

            Of course some of those characters are composed
            of myths and the literal history dubious and far from
            reality in some places. IMO.

            BTW, I see no entry for "Eternal Mahanta" and / or
            "Historical Mahanta" in Harold Klemp & Eckankar's
            Lexicon. I don't believe they have an entry in Paul T.
            Eckankar dictionary either.

            I believe the Eckankar dictionary came out in 1973
            and after Paul Twitchell was already dead. However,
            I believe it was in Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad (1970?) that
            Paul elaborated on "mahanta". I will have to check
            to see whether Darwin Gross or Harold Klemp wrote
            about eternal, or historical mahantas and the reason
            for illustrating them.

            Etznab


            prometheus wrote:
            You make some good points Etznab.
            I would say that the Roman God Jupiter
            was an Astral Plane God that was created
            by the Romans. Then again, I think that
            all of those Gods that religions worship
            have been created by men. Is it no wonder,
            then, that in PT's Eckankar Dictionary
            and in Klemp's 1998 EK Lexicon that they
            both state that the Roman God "Jupiter
            was the Mahanta Consciousness to the
            Romans." Thus, by definition, the Mahanta
            is also a 2nd Plane God and is, therefore,
            of the Astral Plane of Consciousness which
            is ruled by KAL (Satan, devil).

            Prometheus

            etznab wrote:

            rometheus,

            I believe the term "mahanta consciousness"
            evolved over time according to descriptions
            given to it via Eckankar. Like, what was it?
            1969 before Paul mentioned "mahanta" in
            a wisdom note and The Flute of God? The
            fuller descriptions of L.E.M. & Mahanta did
            not appear until the last couple years in the
            life of Paul Twitchell when he set out to ex-
            plain them in the Shariyat books, I believe.
            1970-1971?

            In some earlier books with Rebazar Tarzs
            I don't know that the word "mahanta" was
            even given much mention, if at all. I think
            the term "spiritual traveler" was mentioned
            more.

            Also, I have to consider the appearance in
            Paul T's early dictionary for the term, and
            where so many people (some legendary)
            from history were said to be the mahanta
            consciousness as vehicle for the Sugmad
            as it appeared to .... (in so many words),
            etc.

            Jesus and Krishna were both mentioned.
            And yet, Jesus is generally understood -
            in Eckankar history - to have been a 2nd
            initiate only.

            So what initiation level is the "mahanta
            consciousness"? I couldn't tell you. All I
            can say (at this point) is the definitions
            have apparently evolved over the years. I
            believe that when the teachings became
            a religion in July 1970 that "mahanta" &
            L.E.M. merged to become identified as
            the same thing around that time. Since I
            suspect Eckankar had to be defined for
            legal purposes and one of the things they
            ask you (IMO) is: What is the title of the
            person in charge & who is that person?

            This is speculation on my part. Paul did
            mention at least 3 "levels" of Mahanta -
            I believe - in the Shariyat. Including the
            "Eternal Mahanta" and "Historical Maha-
            anta". All of these merged into the head
            of the religion and organization of Eck-
            ankar at some point, if you ask me. It is
            very hard for the organization to separate
            them from the leader of Eckankar, IMO,
            as that might suggest the physical body,
            the vehicle and leader of Eckankar is but
            a limited form of "highest consciousness".
            Remember the last part for the definition
            for Mahanta Consciousnes used to be:

            "[....] a state of God consciousness which
            is beyond the titles given in religions which
            designate states of consciousness; the
            highest of all states of consciousness."

            [See: Paul Twitchell Dictionary]

            It means not so much of anything to me
            what appears beside the definition(s) for
            "mahanta" today unless I can prove that
            information to be true. I think Paul said &
            wrote a lot of stuff. I also think he exagg-
            erated in some places. Besides that I do
            not see how a highest state of conscious-
            ness can be identified with a human and
            limited vehicle. I'll give you an example.
            Suppose a leader of Eckankar has / had
            a physical disability of some kind. Even
            suppose a leader died. How can human
            beings limited by the physical senses &
            human mortality equate with a "highest
            state of consciousness"? Or, the highest?
            Especially one such as called "Eternal
            Mahanta" present from the beginning of
            time?

            Some things (including the highest of all
            states of consciousness) became at one
            point identified with a single human being,
            IMO. This is what I suspect, at least.

            Etznab

            prometheus wrote:
            Hello Etznab,
            You said, "Wasn't the far ancient past
            like some kind of "Golden Age" anyway?
            Compared to today?"

            I don't think so, but it's all relevant to
            who you are and where you are and
            when you were there, as well as, one's
            state of mind. Some people are experiencing
            the "Golden Age" now while others have
            experienced their "Golden Age" in a past
            lifetime. It doesn't necessarily have to
            involve the consciousness of world society...
            only yours and from your perspective.
            All else is illusion and a test for Soul.
            However, the knowledge of true
            history is an aide for us to expand our
            current awareness and to help made
            it better for those who come after us.

            "Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
            truth escape us? How might that have happ-
            ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
            in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
            was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
            untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
            fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
            ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
            blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
            as literally true."

            One can look at different stages and timeframes
            of any society and see where the past was
            better, in some areas, and worse in other
            areas.

            Censorship has always been a control tactic
            used by those in power and how it's used has
            varied. ECKankar has censorship too, and most
            H.I.s know what many of the boundaries are.
            Why censorship is condoned is related to having
            an "EK membership card." One has to follow
            the rules and be a part of the herd. That's why
            many H.I.s turn a blind-eye and deaf-ear to
            most of it in order to have ECKankar work for
            them as it is with any religious belief system.
            Blind Faith, Narrow Thinking, and the constant
            use of the Imagination are key for EK to "work."

            And, after all, Why doesn't Klemp have PT's
            historic book "Difficulties Of Becoming The
            Living ECK Master" reprinted by ECKankar?
            It's because Klemp can't handle the truth
            that it would reveal nor be able to deal with
            the questions and doubt that would ensue.
            Thus, we have censorship which is a negative
            effect caused by Klemp's negative (lower
            KAL plane) fears and deceit!

            Prometheus

            etznab wrote:
            [....] Even in some of the temples people employed
            inventions for the manifestation of apparent miracles.
            What they got in return were donations. Of course,
            they didn't tell people the real source of the miracles.
            Otherwise donations might become less. [....]"

            Something from the description of the movie I saw
            where it documented various forms of deception that
            were employed to make miracles appear to happen
            using different forms of technology. This is where it
            appears that science was used to promote ideas of
            miracle-working gods existing behind the scenes. It
            was a perversion of not only religion, but of science
            as well. In my opinion:

            "Set firmly at the intersection of religion, science
            and commerce, the latest episode of ANCIENT
            DISCOVERIES travels to Rome and Greece to
            explore the commissioning, fabrication and pre-
            sentation of marvels meant to instill awe and draw
            hordes of deep-pocketed devotees. You will be
            amazed to learn how the greatest minds of the age
            were turned to the construction of what were little
            more than parlor tricks, albeit enormously sophist-
            icated and impressive ones."

            http://shop.history.com/detail.php?p=69989&amp;ecid=SEO-0000046&pa=SEO-SSP

            I believe that program appeared on the History
            Channel some time back.

            Add to this the fact people have fabricated even
            ancient artifacts to frauduently propagate church
            history, have told stories that were mythological
            and / or symbolic - but accepted as literal truth,
            used teachings and quotes from the past which
            were fragmentary, little understood, and / or in a
            language nobody today completely understands,
            etc., and I see ample reason to be skeptical. To
            investigate, examine and even question "outer"
            forms of teachings - from science to religion.

            Today it appears ironic how religion and science
            are apparently divided, when many have argued
            it was not always the case. Col. James Church-
            ward speaking about "religion" in Lemuria gives
            an opinion that religion was described in terms
            a child could understand. Also, that religion and
            science were not two separate things in the very
            beginning. In fact, it is my belief, religion was
            described in "scientific" terms then because the
            people knew how both were connected.

            So, when science today is used to investigate,
            examine and, in some cases expose religious
            fraud I think it helps to remember how science
            was not always the record of ignorance about
            how things work that is in existence today.

            And, in my opinion, some people from earlier
            times may have been much more advanced,
            not less advanced (generally), compared with
            people living today. Looking at remains of the
            past through a modern (ignorant of the past)
            lens and portraying them as less civilized,
            less knowledgeable and less wise is (IMO) a
            major insult to history. I'm talking particularly
            about the ancient and far ancient past. Times
            when monuments were constructed and tech-
            nology existed that people today are still try-
            ing to fathom.

            Wasn't the far ancient past like some kind of
            "Golden Age" anyway? Compared to today?
            Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
            truth escape us? How might that have happ-
            ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
            in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
            was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
            untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
            fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
            ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
            blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
            as literally true.

            Etznab
          • prometheus_973
            Hello All, FIRST- Let s move on from the ECK chela nut/fanatic that s been sending out negative emails to ESA site members. We all know that as above, so
            Message 5 of 21 , Jan 6, 2010
            • 0 Attachment
              Hello All,
              FIRST- Let's move on from the ECK
              chela nut/fanatic that's been sending
              out negative emails to ESA site members.
              We all know that "as above, so below"
              is a direct factor and cause of his imbalance.

              ******
              You're right Etznab! Klemp has said that,
              "Jupiter was the 'Mahanta Consciousness'
              as it appeared to the Romans," or "as it
              appears" to EKists via the LEM!

              BTW- The term you were probably looking for
              is: "Adi-Mahanta. The primordial Mahanta. The
              line of Mastership begun with RAMA, the first
              world Savior, which has been handed down through
              the centuries by the ECK Masters via Oral Secret
              Teachings to those who were Initiated into the
              Order of the Vairagi." (EK Lexicon, 1998, pg. 3)

              This is interesting because this same "Rama"
              is an Indian God who HK claims "brought the
              ECK to India and later to the Aryans, the Fifth
              Root Race." So, the First Mahanta only came
              on-the-scene during the time of the Fifth Root
              Race. And, this title and Consciousness was created
              by the Vairagi Masters and not by Sugmad directly
              (pg.172).

              Now, if someone were to look up "Aryans" in
              HK's 1998 EK Lexicon they would see that this
              is the current ruling race. BTW- "RAMA" was not
              listed as being a Mahanta in the EK Lexicon...
              only a LEM. Why wouldn't Klemp list him as
              a (Full) Mahanta? Maybe he's more detailed in
              the new EK Lexicon and has done another
              Tweak (reedit).

              However, the truth is that Twitchell created
              Eckankar's Mahanta circa Jan. 1, 1969. And,
              "Mahanta" actually means "monastery head."
              Marman and many other EKists know this, but
              for Eckankar to work as a belief system one
              has to have "faith" and toss reason aside! This
              is how religions work... No Thinking is needed!

              Prometheus




              etznab wrote:

              The words "as it appeared to" are interesting to me
              in those definitions for "mahanta consciousness".

              This suggests to me that the "M.C." can appear to
              people under so many different forms. Like Jesus,
              Krishna, Jupiter, etc.

              Also interesting was how Krishna was described in
              somewhat negative terms by both Julian Johnson &
              Paul Twitchell. At other times the description is not
              so negative.

              In about the 1970s though, Paul appears to elaborate
              further about "mahanta". He describes the "historical"
              and "eternal" mahantas. I believe. There was a third
              in the group (trinity) as well.

              Perhaps Paul Twitchell, Darwin Gross and Harold K.
              fit into the category of "historical" mahanta? (Right
              along there with Jesus, Jupiter and Krishna, etc.?)

              Of course some of those characters are composed
              of myths and the literal history dubious and far from
              reality in some places. IMO.

              BTW, I see no entry for "Eternal Mahanta" and / or
              "Historical Mahanta" in Harold Klemp & Eckankar's
              Lexicon. I don't believe they have an entry in Paul T.
              Eckankar dictionary either.

              I believe the Eckankar dictionary came out in 1973
              and after Paul Twitchell was already dead. However,
              I believe it was in Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad (1970?) that
              Paul elaborated on "mahanta". I will have to check
              to see whether Darwin Gross or Harold Klemp wrote
              about eternal, or historical mahantas and the reason
              for illustrating them.

              Etznab


              prometheus wrote:
              You make some good points Etznab.
              I would say that the Roman God Jupiter
              was an Astral Plane God that was created
              by the Romans. Then again, I think that
              all of those Gods that religions worship
              have been created by men. Is it no wonder,
              then, that in PT's Eckankar Dictionary
              and in Klemp's 1998 EK Lexicon that they
              both state that the Roman God "Jupiter
              was the Mahanta Consciousness to the
              Romans." Thus, by definition, the Mahanta
              is also a 2nd Plane God and is, therefore,
              of the Astral Plane of Consciousness which
              is ruled by KAL (Satan, devil).

              Prometheus

              etznab wrote:

              rometheus,

              I believe the term "mahanta consciousness"
              evolved over time according to descriptions
              given to it via Eckankar. Like, what was it?
              1969 before Paul mentioned "mahanta" in
              a wisdom note and The Flute of God? The
              fuller descriptions of L.E.M. & Mahanta did
              not appear until the last couple years in the
              life of Paul Twitchell when he set out to ex-
              plain them in the Shariyat books, I believe.
              1970-1971?

              In some earlier books with Rebazar Tarzs
              I don't know that the word "mahanta" was
              even given much mention, if at all. I think
              the term "spiritual traveler" was mentioned
              more.

              Also, I have to consider the appearance in
              Paul T's early dictionary for the term, and
              where so many people (some legendary)
              from history were said to be the mahanta
              consciousness as vehicle for the Sugmad
              as it appeared to .... (in so many words),
              etc.

              Jesus and Krishna were both mentioned.
              And yet, Jesus is generally understood -
              in Eckankar history - to have been a 2nd
              initiate only.

              So what initiation level is the "mahanta
              consciousness"? I couldn't tell you. All I
              can say (at this point) is the definitions
              have apparently evolved over the years. I
              believe that when the teachings became
              a religion in July 1970 that "mahanta" &
              L.E.M. merged to become identified as
              the same thing around that time. Since I
              suspect Eckankar had to be defined for
              legal purposes and one of the things they
              ask you (IMO) is: What is the title of the
              person in charge & who is that person?

              This is speculation on my part. Paul did
              mention at least 3 "levels" of Mahanta -
              I believe - in the Shariyat. Including the
              "Eternal Mahanta" and "Historical Maha-
              anta". All of these merged into the head
              of the religion and organization of Eck-
              ankar at some point, if you ask me. It is
              very hard for the organization to separate
              them from the leader of Eckankar, IMO,
              as that might suggest the physical body,
              the vehicle and leader of Eckankar is but
              a limited form of "highest consciousness".
              Remember the last part for the definition
              for Mahanta Consciousnes used to be:

              "[....] a state of God consciousness which
              is beyond the titles given in religions which
              designate states of consciousness; the
              highest of all states of consciousness."

              [See: Paul Twitchell Dictionary]

              It means not so much of anything to me
              what appears beside the definition(s) for
              "mahanta" today unless I can prove that
              information to be true. I think Paul said &
              wrote a lot of stuff. I also think he exagg-
              erated in some places. Besides that I do
              not see how a highest state of conscious-
              ness can be identified with a human and
              limited vehicle. I'll give you an example.
              Suppose a leader of Eckankar has / had
              a physical disability of some kind. Even
              suppose a leader died. How can human
              beings limited by the physical senses &
              human mortality equate with a "highest
              state of consciousness"? Or, the highest?
              Especially one such as called "Eternal
              Mahanta" present from the beginning of
              time?

              Some things (including the highest of all
              states of consciousness) became at one
              point identified with a single human being,
              IMO. This is what I suspect, at least.

              Etznab

              prometheus wrote:
              Hello Etznab,
              You said, "Wasn't the far ancient past
              like some kind of "Golden Age" anyway?
              Compared to today?"

              I don't think so, but it's all relevant to
              who you are and where you are and
              when you were there, as well as, one's
              state of mind. Some people are experiencing
              the "Golden Age" now while others have
              experienced their "Golden Age" in a past
              lifetime. It doesn't necessarily have to
              involve the consciousness of world society...
              only yours and from your perspective.
              All else is illusion and a test for Soul.
              However, the knowledge of true
              history is an aide for us to expand our
              current awareness and to help made
              it better for those who come after us.

              "Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
              truth escape us? How might that have happ-
              ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
              in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
              was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
              untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
              fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
              ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
              blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
              as literally true."

              One can look at different stages and timeframes
              of any society and see where the past was
              better, in some areas, and worse in other
              areas.

              Censorship has always been a control tactic
              used by those in power and how it's used has
              varied. ECKankar has censorship too, and most
              H.I.s know what many of the boundaries are.
              Why censorship is condoned is related to having
              an "EK membership card." One has to follow
              the rules and be a part of the herd. That's why
              many H.I.s turn a blind-eye and deaf-ear to
              most of it in order to have ECKankar work for
              them as it is with any religious belief system.
              Blind Faith, Narrow Thinking, and the constant
              use of the Imagination are key for EK to "work."

              And, after all, Why doesn't Klemp have PT's
              historic book "Difficulties Of Becoming The
              Living ECK Master" reprinted by ECKankar?
              It's because Klemp can't handle the truth
              that it would reveal nor be able to deal with
              the questions and doubt that would ensue.
              Thus, we have censorship which is a negative
              effect caused by Klemp's negative (lower
              KAL plane) fears and deceit!

              Prometheus

              etznab wrote:
              [....] Even in some of the temples people employed
              inventions for the manifestation of apparent miracles.
              What they got in return were donations. Of course,
              they didn't tell people the real source of the miracles.
              Otherwise donations might become less. [....]"

              Something from the description of the movie I saw
              where it documented various forms of deception that
              were employed to make miracles appear to happen
              using different forms of technology. This is where it
              appears that science was used to promote ideas of
              miracle-working gods existing behind the scenes. It
              was a perversion of not only religion, but of science
              as well. In my opinion:

              "Set firmly at the intersection of religion, science
              and commerce, the latest episode of ANCIENT
              DISCOVERIES travels to Rome and Greece to
              explore the commissioning, fabrication and pre-
              sentation of marvels meant to instill awe and draw
              hordes of deep-pocketed devotees. You will be
              amazed to learn how the greatest minds of the age
              were turned to the construction of what were little
              more than parlor tricks, albeit enormously sophist-
              icated and impressive ones."

              http://shop.history.com/detail.php?p=69989&amp;ecid=SEO-0000046&pa=SEO-SSP

              I believe that program appeared on the History
              Channel some time back.

              Add to this the fact people have fabricated even
              ancient artifacts to frauduently propagate church
              history, have told stories that were mythological
              and / or symbolic - but accepted as literal truth,
              used teachings and quotes from the past which
              were fragmentary, little understood, and / or in a
              language nobody today completely understands,
              etc., and I see ample reason to be skeptical. To
              investigate, examine and even question "outer"
              forms of teachings - from science to religion.

              Today it appears ironic how religion and science
              are apparently divided, when many have argued
              it was not always the case. Col. James Church-
              ward speaking about "religion" in Lemuria gives
              an opinion that religion was described in terms
              a child could understand. Also, that religion and
              science were not two separate things in the very
              beginning. In fact, it is my belief, religion was
              described in "scientific" terms then because the
              people knew how both were connected.

              So, when science today is used to investigate,
              examine and, in some cases expose religious
              fraud I think it helps to remember how science
              was not always the record of ignorance about
              how things work that is in existence today.

              And, in my opinion, some people from earlier
              times may have been much more advanced,
              not less advanced (generally), compared with
              people living today. Looking at remains of the
              past through a modern (ignorant of the past)
              lens and portraying them as less civilized,
              less knowledgeable and less wise is (IMO) a
              major insult to history. I'm talking particularly
              about the ancient and far ancient past. Times
              when monuments were constructed and tech-
              nology existed that people today are still try-
              ing to fathom.

              Wasn't the far ancient past like some kind of
              "Golden Age" anyway? Compared to today?
              Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
              truth escape us? How might that have happ-
              ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
              in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
              was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
              untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
              fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
              ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
              blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
              as literally true.

              Etznab
            • prometheus_973
              Hello All, This is simply more proof of Eckankar s deceptions. It s come to my attention that Klemp is still using a 10-15 old photo as his Official Photo
              Message 6 of 21 , Nov 3, 2011
              • 0 Attachment
                Hello All,
                This is simply more proof
                of Eckankar's deceptions.

                It's come to my attention
                that Klemp is still using
                a 10-15 old photo as his
                "Official Photo" which is
                to be displayed at ECK
                functions and EK Centers.

                WHY? Really, why is this
                being done?

                Isn't Klemp comfortable
                with his aging?

                On the front page of the
                September, 2011 "The
                Mystic World of ECKankar"
                is a current photo of Klemp.

                However, if one looks at
                the back page where "The
                Wisdom Notes" are given
                there is the older "Official
                Photo" depicting a younger
                looking Klemp.

                Is the real and present day
                photo depicting the Outer
                LEM while the "Official (past)
                Photo" depicting the Inner
                Master/Mahanta? Is that
                Klemp's rationale for this
                subliminal trickery?

                Really, I don't think that this
                issue has ever been addressed
                since ECKists aren't permitted
                to ask such questions without
                risking reprisals by their RESAs
                or via the ESC (Klemp).

                But, in Eckankar, what is reality?
                Is it anything one wants to deny
                and imagine differently as you
                like it?

                This photo switch is simply
                another trick that Klemp uses
                to cloud the minds and reasoning
                abilities of his followers so they
                can feel good about their religion
                of pretend Masters, Initiations,
                and Planes of Consciousness.

                This denial of the obvious is
                why ECKists are comfortable
                and passive sheep and/or are
                chickens in the EK hen house.
                However, on the other hand,
                ECKists are stressed out as
                well.

                ECKists must be Vahanas/
                Missionary's and give Service
                to Klemp (and Lip Service to
                the public) in order to advance
                and/or to maintain their status
                as official spokespersons.

                The Lip Service is when they
                give the "official" presentations
                which omit facts with the guise
                of being "too much spiritual
                food" for the seeker to handle.

                Come on, just tell them how
                long it will probably take them
                to become free of Karma or
                reach the 5th initiation! And,
                how many more years (and
                what's required) it should
                take them to reach the 7th
                initiation. Then tell them
                how long it will be for them
                to reach the 8th initiation...
                maybe the RESA would know
                that answer. LOL!

                Prometheus



                From Dec, 2009:
                Isn't it strange that a "spiritual
                master" (a Mahanta) would still
                be using an outdated photo.
                This shows that Klemp is attached
                to KAL's lower plane influences.
                This is more proof that HK has
                fallen from SUGMAD's Grace (not
                that he ever had it). Still, for some
                ECKists Klemp's youthful appearance
                attachment must be confusing.
                Others simply turn a Blind Eye
                to it all... they like the public
                seeing the younger looking photo.
                It's less embarrassing than the
                real thing. H.I.s, especially, live
                in a state of denial because it's
                comfortable and convenient
                and EK Membership has become
                habitual and ego driven.

                {Note: Annual EK Membership
                is actually required in order to
                receive and keep initiations. The
                reenrolling of one's membership
                must become habitual or risk
                losing the fake connection with
                the Inner via the outer monetary
                membership requirement. Thus,
                EK membership is ego, as well as,
                fear driven.}

                Prometheus
              • Diana Stanley
                maybe he should try botox or a face lift. It would be a miricale that he got his youth back! Diana
                Message 7 of 21 , Nov 4, 2011
                • 0 Attachment
                  maybe he should try botox or a face lift. It would be a miricale that he got his youth back!
                  Diana

                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello All,
                  > This is simply more proof
                  > of Eckankar's deceptions.
                  >
                  > It's come to my attention
                  > that Klemp is still using
                  > a 10-15 old photo as his
                  > "Official Photo" which is
                  > to be displayed at ECK
                  > functions and EK Centers.
                  >
                  > WHY? Really, why is this
                  > being done?
                  >
                  > Isn't Klemp comfortable
                  > with his aging?
                  >
                  > On the front page of the
                  > September, 2011 "The
                  > Mystic World of ECKankar"
                  > is a current photo of Klemp.
                  >
                  > However, if one looks at
                  > the back page where "The
                  > Wisdom Notes" are given
                  > there is the older "Official
                  > Photo" depicting a younger
                  > looking Klemp.
                  >
                  > Is the real and present day
                  > photo depicting the Outer
                  > LEM while the "Official (past)
                  > Photo" depicting the Inner
                  > Master/Mahanta? Is that
                  > Klemp's rationale for this
                  > subliminal trickery?
                  >
                  > Really, I don't think that this
                  > issue has ever been addressed
                  > since ECKists aren't permitted
                  > to ask such questions without
                  > risking reprisals by their RESAs
                  > or via the ESC (Klemp).
                  >
                  > But, in Eckankar, what is reality?
                  > Is it anything one wants to deny
                  > and imagine differently as you
                  > like it?
                  >
                  > This photo switch is simply
                  > another trick that Klemp uses
                  > to cloud the minds and reasoning
                  > abilities of his followers so they
                  > can feel good about their religion
                  > of pretend Masters, Initiations,
                  > and Planes of Consciousness.
                  >
                  > This denial of the obvious is
                  > why ECKists are comfortable
                  > and passive sheep and/or are
                  > chickens in the EK hen house.
                  > However, on the other hand,
                  > ECKists are stressed out as
                  > well.
                  >
                  > ECKists must be Vahanas/
                  > Missionary's and give Service
                  > to Klemp (and Lip Service to
                  > the public) in order to advance
                  > and/or to maintain their status
                  > as official spokespersons.
                  >
                  > The Lip Service is when they
                  > give the "official" presentations
                  > which omit facts with the guise
                  > of being "too much spiritual
                  > food" for the seeker to handle.
                  >
                  > Come on, just tell them how
                  > long it will probably take them
                  > to become free of Karma or
                  > reach the 5th initiation! And,
                  > how many more years (and
                  > what's required) it should
                  > take them to reach the 7th
                  > initiation. Then tell them
                  > how long it will be for them
                  > to reach the 8th initiation...
                  > maybe the RESA would know
                  > that answer. LOL!
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > From Dec, 2009:
                  > Isn't it strange that a "spiritual
                  > master" (a Mahanta) would still
                  > be using an outdated photo.
                  > This shows that Klemp is attached
                  > to KAL's lower plane influences.
                  > This is more proof that HK has
                  > fallen from SUGMAD's Grace (not
                  > that he ever had it). Still, for some
                  > ECKists Klemp's youthful appearance
                  > attachment must be confusing.
                  > Others simply turn a Blind Eye
                  > to it all... they like the public
                  > seeing the younger looking photo.
                  > It's less embarrassing than the
                  > real thing. H.I.s, especially, live
                  > in a state of denial because it's
                  > comfortable and convenient
                  > and EK Membership has become
                  > habitual and ego driven.
                  >
                  > {Note: Annual EK Membership
                  > is actually required in order to
                  > receive and keep initiations. The
                  > reenrolling of one's membership
                  > must become habitual or risk
                  > losing the fake connection with
                  > the Inner via the outer monetary
                  > membership requirement. Thus,
                  > EK membership is ego, as well as,
                  > fear driven.}
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                • prometheus_973
                  Hello Diana and All, At one time Klemp tried contact lens but eventually switched back to glasses. I m told he received some criticism, from H.I.s via chelas,
                  Message 8 of 21 , Nov 4, 2011
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hello Diana and All,
                    At one time Klemp tried
                    contact lens but eventually
                    switched back to glasses.
                    I'm told he received some
                    criticism, from H.I.s via
                    chelas, that contacts were
                    more of a vanity issue than
                    a sight/vision issue. ECKists
                    can't have their mealy looking
                    Mahanta project a fraudulent
                    appearance because that
                    would indicate other frauds
                    might be taking place and
                    perpetuated. LOL!

                    However, I've also read that
                    contacts can offer people
                    better vision than glasses,
                    but maybe that was just
                    a slanted PR story to sell
                    a product like Eckankar
                    does.

                    I'm assuming that this is
                    why Klemp won't dye his
                    hair or get hair plugs. I
                    wonder what else Klemp
                    does, or doesn't do, that
                    is natural? Boxers, briefs,
                    or commando?

                    Prometheus

                    dianastanley wrote:
                    maybe he should try botox
                    or a face lift. It would be
                    a miricale that he got his
                    youth back!
                    Diana


                    <prometheus wrote:
                    >
                    > Hello All,
                    > This is simply more proof
                    > of Eckankar's deceptions.
                    >
                    > It's come to my attention
                    > that Klemp is still using
                    > a 10-15 old photo as his
                    > "Official Photo" which is
                    > to be displayed at ECK
                    > functions and EK Centers.
                    >
                    > WHY? Really, why is this
                    > being done?
                    >
                    > Isn't Klemp comfortable
                    > with his aging?
                    >
                    > On the front page of the
                    > September, 2011 "The
                    > Mystic World of ECKankar"
                    > is a current photo of Klemp.
                    >
                    > However, if one looks at
                    > the back page where "The
                    > Wisdom Notes" are given
                    > there is the older "Official
                    > Photo" depicting a younger
                    > looking Klemp.
                    >
                    > Is the real and present day
                    > photo depicting the Outer
                    > LEM while the "Official (past)
                    > Photo" depicting the Inner
                    > Master/Mahanta? Is that
                    > Klemp's rationale for this
                    > subliminal trickery?
                    >
                    > Really, I don't think that this
                    > issue has ever been addressed
                    > since ECKists aren't permitted
                    > to ask such questions without
                    > risking reprisals by their RESAs
                    > or via the ESC (Klemp).
                    >
                    > But, in Eckankar, what is reality?
                    > Is it anything one wants to deny
                    > and imagine differently as you
                    > like it?
                    >
                    > This photo switch is simply
                    > another trick that Klemp uses
                    > to cloud the minds and reasoning
                    > abilities of his followers so they
                    > can feel good about their religion
                    > of pretend Masters, Initiations,
                    > and Planes of Consciousness.
                    >
                    > This denial of the obvious is
                    > why ECKists are comfortable
                    > and passive sheep and/or are
                    > chickens in the EK hen house.
                    > However, on the other hand,
                    > ECKists are stressed out as
                    > well.
                    >
                    > ECKists must be Vahanas/
                    > Missionary's and give Service
                    > to Klemp (and Lip Service to
                    > the public) in order to advance
                    > and/or to maintain their status
                    > as official spokespersons.
                    >
                    > The Lip Service is when they
                    > give the "official" presentations
                    > which omit facts with the guise
                    > of being "too much spiritual
                    > food" for the seeker to handle.
                    >
                    > Come on, just tell them how
                    > long it will probably take them
                    > to become free of Karma or
                    > reach the 5th initiation! And,
                    > how many more years (and
                    > what's required) it should
                    > take them to reach the 7th
                    > initiation. Then tell them
                    > how long it will be for them
                    > to reach the 8th initiation...
                    > maybe the RESA would know
                    > that answer. LOL!
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > From Dec, 2009:
                    > Isn't it strange that a "spiritual
                    > master" (a Mahanta) would still
                    > be using an outdated photo.
                    > This shows that Klemp is attached
                    > to KAL's lower plane influences.
                    > This is more proof that HK has
                    > fallen from SUGMAD's Grace (not
                    > that he ever had it). Still, for some
                    > ECKists Klemp's youthful appearance
                    > attachment must be confusing.
                    > Others simply turn a Blind Eye
                    > to it all... they like the public
                    > seeing the younger looking photo.
                    > It's less embarrassing than the
                    > real thing. H.I.s, especially, live
                    > in a state of denial because it's
                    > comfortable and convenient
                    > and EK Membership has become
                    > habitual and ego driven.
                    >
                    > {Note: Annual EK Membership
                    > is actually required in order to
                    > receive and keep initiations. The
                    > reenrolling of one's membership
                    > must become habitual or risk
                    > losing the fake connection with
                    > the Inner via the outer monetary
                    > membership requirement. Thus,
                    > EK membership is ego, as well as,
                    > fear driven.}
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                  • Diana Stanley
                    I don t understand why he cares what he looks like he never hardly ever makes public appearences. Maybe he has a double to do all public pr work!!! Diana
                    Message 9 of 21 , Nov 6, 2011
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I don't understand why he cares what he looks like he never hardly ever makes public appearences. Maybe he has a double to do all public pr work!!!
                      Diana



                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hello Diana and All,
                      > At one time Klemp tried
                      > contact lens but eventually
                      > switched back to glasses.
                      > I'm told he received some
                      > criticism, from H.I.s via
                      > chelas, that contacts were
                      > more of a vanity issue than
                      > a sight/vision issue. ECKists
                      > can't have their mealy looking
                      > Mahanta project a fraudulent
                      > appearance because that
                      > would indicate other frauds
                      > might be taking place and
                      > perpetuated. LOL!
                      >
                      > However, I've also read that
                      > contacts can offer people
                      > better vision than glasses,
                      > but maybe that was just
                      > a slanted PR story to sell
                      > a product like Eckankar
                      > does.
                      >
                      > I'm assuming that this is
                      > why Klemp won't dye his
                      > hair or get hair plugs. I
                      > wonder what else Klemp
                      > does, or doesn't do, that
                      > is natural? Boxers, briefs,
                      > or commando?
                      >
                      > Prometheus
                      >
                      > dianastanley wrote:
                      > maybe he should try botox
                      > or a face lift. It would be
                      > a miricale that he got his
                      > youth back!
                      > Diana
                      >
                      >
                      > <prometheus wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hello All,
                      > > This is simply more proof
                      > > of Eckankar's deceptions.
                      > >
                      > > It's come to my attention
                      > > that Klemp is still using
                      > > a 10-15 old photo as his
                      > > "Official Photo" which is
                      > > to be displayed at ECK
                      > > functions and EK Centers.
                      > >
                      > > WHY? Really, why is this
                      > > being done?
                      > >
                      > > Isn't Klemp comfortable
                      > > with his aging?
                      > >
                      > > On the front page of the
                      > > September, 2011 "The
                      > > Mystic World of ECKankar"
                      > > is a current photo of Klemp.
                      > >
                      > > However, if one looks at
                      > > the back page where "The
                      > > Wisdom Notes" are given
                      > > there is the older "Official
                      > > Photo" depicting a younger
                      > > looking Klemp.
                      > >
                      > > Is the real and present day
                      > > photo depicting the Outer
                      > > LEM while the "Official (past)
                      > > Photo" depicting the Inner
                      > > Master/Mahanta? Is that
                      > > Klemp's rationale for this
                      > > subliminal trickery?
                      > >
                      > > Really, I don't think that this
                      > > issue has ever been addressed
                      > > since ECKists aren't permitted
                      > > to ask such questions without
                      > > risking reprisals by their RESAs
                      > > or via the ESC (Klemp).
                      > >
                      > > But, in Eckankar, what is reality?
                      > > Is it anything one wants to deny
                      > > and imagine differently as you
                      > > like it?
                      > >
                      > > This photo switch is simply
                      > > another trick that Klemp uses
                      > > to cloud the minds and reasoning
                      > > abilities of his followers so they
                      > > can feel good about their religion
                      > > of pretend Masters, Initiations,
                      > > and Planes of Consciousness.
                      > >
                      > > This denial of the obvious is
                      > > why ECKists are comfortable
                      > > and passive sheep and/or are
                      > > chickens in the EK hen house.
                      > > However, on the other hand,
                      > > ECKists are stressed out as
                      > > well.
                      > >
                      > > ECKists must be Vahanas/
                      > > Missionary's and give Service
                      > > to Klemp (and Lip Service to
                      > > the public) in order to advance
                      > > and/or to maintain their status
                      > > as official spokespersons.
                      > >
                      > > The Lip Service is when they
                      > > give the "official" presentations
                      > > which omit facts with the guise
                      > > of being "too much spiritual
                      > > food" for the seeker to handle.
                      > >
                      > > Come on, just tell them how
                      > > long it will probably take them
                      > > to become free of Karma or
                      > > reach the 5th initiation! And,
                      > > how many more years (and
                      > > what's required) it should
                      > > take them to reach the 7th
                      > > initiation. Then tell them
                      > > how long it will be for them
                      > > to reach the 8th initiation...
                      > > maybe the RESA would know
                      > > that answer. LOL!
                      > >
                      > > Prometheus
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > From Dec, 2009:
                      > > Isn't it strange that a "spiritual
                      > > master" (a Mahanta) would still
                      > > be using an outdated photo.
                      > > This shows that Klemp is attached
                      > > to KAL's lower plane influences.
                      > > This is more proof that HK has
                      > > fallen from SUGMAD's Grace (not
                      > > that he ever had it). Still, for some
                      > > ECKists Klemp's youthful appearance
                      > > attachment must be confusing.
                      > > Others simply turn a Blind Eye
                      > > to it all... they like the public
                      > > seeing the younger looking photo.
                      > > It's less embarrassing than the
                      > > real thing. H.I.s, especially, live
                      > > in a state of denial because it's
                      > > comfortable and convenient
                      > > and EK Membership has become
                      > > habitual and ego driven.
                      > >
                      > > {Note: Annual EK Membership
                      > > is actually required in order to
                      > > receive and keep initiations. The
                      > > reenrolling of one's membership
                      > > must become habitual or risk
                      > > losing the fake connection with
                      > > the Inner via the outer monetary
                      > > membership requirement. Thus,
                      > > EK membership is ego, as well as,
                      > > fear driven.}
                      > >
                      > > Prometheus
                      >
                    • prometheus_973
                      Hello Diana and All, Klemp cares about the more youthful image he s projecting in the PR brochures and his official pic displayed in EK Centers and at Intros
                      Message 10 of 21 , Nov 7, 2011
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hello Diana and All,
                        Klemp cares about
                        the more youthful
                        image he's projecting
                        in the PR brochures
                        and his official pic
                        displayed in EK Centers
                        and at Intros because
                        it appeals to younger
                        people more than his
                        old real life image does!

                        Thus, more suckers
                        are attracted to the
                        bait and switch packaging
                        versus the reality which
                        would repel them. LOL!

                        At a Seminar (after
                        seeing Klemp) they
                        simply decide to stay
                        until he gets done talking.
                        Klemp was never too
                        photogenic anyway but
                        now he's really getting
                        pathetic looking... as
                        a Mahanta/God!

                        Really, how can Eckists
                        believe in or talk about
                        the ECK Masters like
                        Rebazar, who are
                        supposedly over 500
                        years old and still maintain
                        a physical body, when
                        Klemp claims to be the
                        greatest and most spiritually
                        advanced Mahanta ever!
                        Yet, he's wasting away!
                        It doesn't make sense if
                        it was true! The truth is
                        there are No ECK Masters
                        and Klemp is a phony!

                        Pretend can be fun and
                        the imagination can make
                        the mundane magical,
                        it's an escape, and it can
                        be used (as lies) to explain
                        things in mythological and
                        unscientific terms because
                        science can't explain it
                        away with concrete analysis
                        and proven facts. Besides,
                        would most people listen?
                        Therefore, the ECK Masters
                        are as imagined as the
                        characters in Harry Potter,
                        or the Lord of the Rings,
                        et al.

                        Thus, if Eckankar was for
                        real Klemp wouldn't be
                        aging and rapidly! He'd
                        look like Rebazar or one
                        of the other portraits of
                        those fake ECK Masters.

                        Funny that the artist who
                        did the latest ECK Master
                        portraits made them look
                        younger than Klemp's real-
                        time current photo (not the
                        embellished portrait)! Just
                        go the eckankar.org and
                        see for yourself! It's comical!

                        Prometheus


                        dianastanley wrote:
                        I don't understand why
                        he cares what he looks
                        like he never hardly ever
                        makes public appearences.
                        Maybe he has a double
                        to do all public pr work!!!
                        Diana




                        <prometheus wrote:
                        >
                        > Hello Diana and All,
                        > At one time Klemp tried
                        > contact lens but eventually
                        > switched back to glasses.
                        > I'm told he received some
                        > criticism, from H.I.s via
                        > chelas, that contacts were
                        > more of a vanity issue than
                        > a sight/vision issue. ECKists
                        > can't have their mealy looking
                        > Mahanta project a fraudulent
                        > appearance because that
                        > would indicate other frauds
                        > might be taking place and
                        > perpetuated. LOL!
                        >
                        > However, I've also read that
                        > contacts can offer people
                        > better vision than glasses,
                        > but maybe that was just
                        > a slanted PR story to sell
                        > a product like Eckankar
                        > does.
                        >
                        > I'm assuming that this is
                        > why Klemp won't dye his
                        > hair or get hair plugs. I
                        > wonder what else Klemp
                        > does, or doesn't do, that
                        > is natural? Boxers, briefs,
                        > or commando?
                        >
                        > Prometheus
                        >
                        > dianastanley wrote:
                        > maybe he should try botox
                        > or a face lift. It would be
                        > a miricale that he got his
                        > youth back!
                        > Diana
                        >
                        >
                        > <prometheus wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Hello All,
                        > > This is simply more proof
                        > > of Eckankar's deceptions.
                        > >
                        > > It's come to my attention
                        > > that Klemp is still using
                        > > a 10-15 old photo as his
                        > > "Official Photo" which is
                        > > to be displayed at ECK
                        > > functions and EK Centers.
                        > >
                        > > WHY? Really, why is this
                        > > being done?
                        > >
                        > > Isn't Klemp comfortable
                        > > with his aging?
                        > >
                        > > On the front page of the
                        > > September, 2011 "The
                        > > Mystic World of ECKankar"
                        > > is a current photo of Klemp.
                        > >
                        > > However, if one looks at
                        > > the back page where "The
                        > > Wisdom Notes" are given
                        > > there is the older "Official
                        > > Photo" depicting a younger
                        > > looking Klemp.
                        > >
                        > > Is the real and present day
                        > > photo depicting the Outer
                        > > LEM while the "Official (past)
                        > > Photo" depicting the Inner
                        > > Master/Mahanta? Is that
                        > > Klemp's rationale for this
                        > > subliminal trickery?
                        > >
                        > > Really, I don't think that this
                        > > issue has ever been addressed
                        > > since ECKists aren't permitted
                        > > to ask such questions without
                        > > risking reprisals by their RESAs
                        > > or via the ESC (Klemp).
                        > >
                        > > But, in Eckankar, what is reality?
                        > > Is it anything one wants to deny
                        > > and imagine differently as you
                        > > like it?
                        > >
                        > > This photo switch is simply
                        > > another trick that Klemp uses
                        > > to cloud the minds and reasoning
                        > > abilities of his followers so they
                        > > can feel good about their religion
                        > > of pretend Masters, Initiations,
                        > > and Planes of Consciousness.
                        > >
                        > > This denial of the obvious is
                        > > why ECKists are comfortable
                        > > and passive sheep and/or are
                        > > chickens in the EK hen house.
                        > > However, on the other hand,
                        > > ECKists are stressed out as
                        > > well.
                        > >
                        > > ECKists must be Vahanas/
                        > > Missionary's and give Service
                        > > to Klemp (and Lip Service to
                        > > the public) in order to advance
                        > > and/or to maintain their status
                        > > as official spokespersons.
                        > >
                        > > The Lip Service is when they
                        > > give the "official" presentations
                        > > which omit facts with the guise
                        > > of being "too much spiritual
                        > > food" for the seeker to handle.
                        > >
                        > > Come on, just tell them how
                        > > long it will probably take them
                        > > to become free of Karma or
                        > > reach the 5th initiation! And,
                        > > how many more years (and
                        > > what's required) it should
                        > > take them to reach the 7th
                        > > initiation. Then tell them
                        > > how long it will be for them
                        > > to reach the 8th initiation...
                        > > maybe the RESA would know
                        > > that answer. LOL!
                        > >
                        > > Prometheus
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > From Dec, 2009:
                        > > Isn't it strange that a "spiritual
                        > > master" (a Mahanta) would still
                        > > be using an outdated photo.
                        > > This shows that Klemp is attached
                        > > to KAL's lower plane influences.
                        > > This is more proof that HK has
                        > > fallen from SUGMAD's Grace (not
                        > > that he ever had it). Still, for some
                        > > ECKists Klemp's youthful appearance
                        > > attachment must be confusing.
                        > > Others simply turn a Blind Eye
                        > > to it all... they like the public
                        > > seeing the younger looking photo.
                        > > It's less embarrassing than the
                        > > real thing. H.I.s, especially, live
                        > > in a state of denial because it's
                        > > comfortable and convenient
                        > > and EK Membership has become
                        > > habitual and ego driven.
                        > >
                        > > {Note: Annual EK Membership
                        > > is actually required in order to
                        > > receive and keep initiations. The
                        > > reenrolling of one's membership
                        > > must become habitual or risk
                        > > losing the fake connection with
                        > > the Inner via the outer monetary
                        > > membership requirement. Thus,
                        > > EK membership is ego, as well as,
                        > > fear driven.}
                        > >
                        > > Prometheus
                      • Diana Stanley
                        Eckankar is being reduced to sillyness. People who are trully seeking spiritual enlightenment will begin to leave. Those that are comfortable with authority
                        Message 11 of 21 , Nov 9, 2011
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                          Eckankar is being reduced to sillyness. People who are trully seeking spiritual enlightenment will begin to leave. Those that are comfortable with authority and rules and regulations will hang on.
                          Much like the old churches some people feel safe if they are told how to get to heven and avoid hell.
                          I imagin Harold is trying to incorporate the Eck teachings with christian beliefs as that is Harolds background.
                          I am afraid it is a marrage that is doomed to failure. Hopefully sooner than later.
                          Diana

                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hello Diana and All,
                          > Klemp cares about
                          > the more youthful
                          > image he's projecting
                          > in the PR brochures
                          > and his official pic
                          > displayed in EK Centers
                          > and at Intros because
                          > it appeals to younger
                          > people more than his
                          > old real life image does!
                          >
                          > Thus, more suckers
                          > are attracted to the
                          > bait and switch packaging
                          > versus the reality which
                          > would repel them. LOL!
                          >
                          > At a Seminar (after
                          > seeing Klemp) they
                          > simply decide to stay
                          > until he gets done talking.
                          > Klemp was never too
                          > photogenic anyway but
                          > now he's really getting
                          > pathetic looking... as
                          > a Mahanta/God!
                          >
                          > Really, how can Eckists
                          > believe in or talk about
                          > the ECK Masters like
                          > Rebazar, who are
                          > supposedly over 500
                          > years old and still maintain
                          > a physical body, when
                          > Klemp claims to be the
                          > greatest and most spiritually
                          > advanced Mahanta ever!
                          > Yet, he's wasting away!
                          > It doesn't make sense if
                          > it was true! The truth is
                          > there are No ECK Masters
                          > and Klemp is a phony!
                          >
                          > Pretend can be fun and
                          > the imagination can make
                          > the mundane magical,
                          > it's an escape, and it can
                          > be used (as lies) to explain
                          > things in mythological and
                          > unscientific terms because
                          > science can't explain it
                          > away with concrete analysis
                          > and proven facts. Besides,
                          > would most people listen?
                          > Therefore, the ECK Masters
                          > are as imagined as the
                          > characters in Harry Potter,
                          > or the Lord of the Rings,
                          > et al.
                          >
                          > Thus, if Eckankar was for
                          > real Klemp wouldn't be
                          > aging and rapidly! He'd
                          > look like Rebazar or one
                          > of the other portraits of
                          > those fake ECK Masters.
                          >
                          > Funny that the artist who
                          > did the latest ECK Master
                          > portraits made them look
                          > younger than Klemp's real-
                          > time current photo (not the
                          > embellished portrait)! Just
                          > go the eckankar.org and
                          > see for yourself! It's comical!
                          >
                          > Prometheus
                          >
                          >
                          > dianastanley wrote:
                          > I don't understand why
                          > he cares what he looks
                          > like he never hardly ever
                          > makes public appearences.
                          > Maybe he has a double
                          > to do all public pr work!!!
                          > Diana
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > <prometheus wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Hello Diana and All,
                          > > At one time Klemp tried
                          > > contact lens but eventually
                          > > switched back to glasses.
                          > > I'm told he received some
                          > > criticism, from H.I.s via
                          > > chelas, that contacts were
                          > > more of a vanity issue than
                          > > a sight/vision issue. ECKists
                          > > can't have their mealy looking
                          > > Mahanta project a fraudulent
                          > > appearance because that
                          > > would indicate other frauds
                          > > might be taking place and
                          > > perpetuated. LOL!
                          > >
                          > > However, I've also read that
                          > > contacts can offer people
                          > > better vision than glasses,
                          > > but maybe that was just
                          > > a slanted PR story to sell
                          > > a product like Eckankar
                          > > does.
                          > >
                          > > I'm assuming that this is
                          > > why Klemp won't dye his
                          > > hair or get hair plugs. I
                          > > wonder what else Klemp
                          > > does, or doesn't do, that
                          > > is natural? Boxers, briefs,
                          > > or commando?
                          > >
                          > > Prometheus
                          > >
                          > > dianastanley wrote:
                          > > maybe he should try botox
                          > > or a face lift. It would be
                          > > a miricale that he got his
                          > > youth back!
                          > > Diana
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > <prometheus wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Hello All,
                          > > > This is simply more proof
                          > > > of Eckankar's deceptions.
                          > > >
                          > > > It's come to my attention
                          > > > that Klemp is still using
                          > > > a 10-15 old photo as his
                          > > > "Official Photo" which is
                          > > > to be displayed at ECK
                          > > > functions and EK Centers.
                          > > >
                          > > > WHY? Really, why is this
                          > > > being done?
                          > > >
                          > > > Isn't Klemp comfortable
                          > > > with his aging?
                          > > >
                          > > > On the front page of the
                          > > > September, 2011 "The
                          > > > Mystic World of ECKankar"
                          > > > is a current photo of Klemp.
                          > > >
                          > > > However, if one looks at
                          > > > the back page where "The
                          > > > Wisdom Notes" are given
                          > > > there is the older "Official
                          > > > Photo" depicting a younger
                          > > > looking Klemp.
                          > > >
                          > > > Is the real and present day
                          > > > photo depicting the Outer
                          > > > LEM while the "Official (past)
                          > > > Photo" depicting the Inner
                          > > > Master/Mahanta? Is that
                          > > > Klemp's rationale for this
                          > > > subliminal trickery?
                          > > >
                          > > > Really, I don't think that this
                          > > > issue has ever been addressed
                          > > > since ECKists aren't permitted
                          > > > to ask such questions without
                          > > > risking reprisals by their RESAs
                          > > > or via the ESC (Klemp).
                          > > >
                          > > > But, in Eckankar, what is reality?
                          > > > Is it anything one wants to deny
                          > > > and imagine differently as you
                          > > > like it?
                          > > >
                          > > > This photo switch is simply
                          > > > another trick that Klemp uses
                          > > > to cloud the minds and reasoning
                          > > > abilities of his followers so they
                          > > > can feel good about their religion
                          > > > of pretend Masters, Initiations,
                          > > > and Planes of Consciousness.
                          > > >
                          > > > This denial of the obvious is
                          > > > why ECKists are comfortable
                          > > > and passive sheep and/or are
                          > > > chickens in the EK hen house.
                          > > > However, on the other hand,
                          > > > ECKists are stressed out as
                          > > > well.
                          > > >
                          > > > ECKists must be Vahanas/
                          > > > Missionary's and give Service
                          > > > to Klemp (and Lip Service to
                          > > > the public) in order to advance
                          > > > and/or to maintain their status
                          > > > as official spokespersons.
                          > > >
                          > > > The Lip Service is when they
                          > > > give the "official" presentations
                          > > > which omit facts with the guise
                          > > > of being "too much spiritual
                          > > > food" for the seeker to handle.
                          > > >
                          > > > Come on, just tell them how
                          > > > long it will probably take them
                          > > > to become free of Karma or
                          > > > reach the 5th initiation! And,
                          > > > how many more years (and
                          > > > what's required) it should
                          > > > take them to reach the 7th
                          > > > initiation. Then tell them
                          > > > how long it will be for them
                          > > > to reach the 8th initiation...
                          > > > maybe the RESA would know
                          > > > that answer. LOL!
                          > > >
                          > > > Prometheus
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > From Dec, 2009:
                          > > > Isn't it strange that a "spiritual
                          > > > master" (a Mahanta) would still
                          > > > be using an outdated photo.
                          > > > This shows that Klemp is attached
                          > > > to KAL's lower plane influences.
                          > > > This is more proof that HK has
                          > > > fallen from SUGMAD's Grace (not
                          > > > that he ever had it). Still, for some
                          > > > ECKists Klemp's youthful appearance
                          > > > attachment must be confusing.
                          > > > Others simply turn a Blind Eye
                          > > > to it all... they like the public
                          > > > seeing the younger looking photo.
                          > > > It's less embarrassing than the
                          > > > real thing. H.I.s, especially, live
                          > > > in a state of denial because it's
                          > > > comfortable and convenient
                          > > > and EK Membership has become
                          > > > habitual and ego driven.
                          > > >
                          > > > {Note: Annual EK Membership
                          > > > is actually required in order to
                          > > > receive and keep initiations. The
                          > > > reenrolling of one's membership
                          > > > must become habitual or risk
                          > > > losing the fake connection with
                          > > > the Inner via the outer monetary
                          > > > membership requirement. Thus,
                          > > > EK membership is ego, as well as,
                          > > > fear driven.}
                          > > >
                          > > > Prometheus
                          >
                        • prometheus_973
                          Hello Diana and All, Yes, the silliness began with Twitchell. That s why Gail and Patti were always giggling about good old fuddy-duddy Paul and his conman
                          Message 12 of 21 , Nov 9, 2011
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hello Diana and All,
                            Yes, the silliness began
                            with Twitchell. That's
                            why Gail and Patti were
                            always giggling about
                            good old fuddy-duddy
                            Paul and his conman
                            antics, some, to hide
                            his age [the joke was
                            on them because Paul
                            was older than they
                            thought]. Other embellishments
                            were used to promote
                            himself... and yet this
                            doesn't seem to be a
                            problem for longtime
                            H.I.s. When I found out
                            about the foundation
                            of the EK teachings and
                            the liar Twitchell I just
                            couldn't remain a follower.
                            Truth means too much
                            to me. Ask yourself,
                            "What is Truth?"

                            Klemp is as much the liar
                            as Twitchell. He rationalizes
                            it away by thinking that people
                            need something to believe
                            in and Eckankar gives them
                            something that is, at least,
                            less physically harmful to
                            the world than many other
                            religions. Of course, that's
                            only because Eckankar doesn't
                            have the members, money,
                            and power that other religions
                            have. Other than that it's
                            a fraud and a waste of time.
                            It creates delusional thinking
                            and this inhibits clarity of
                            mind and true, individual,
                            "spiritual" progress.

                            Prometheus



                            "Diana Stanley" wrote:
                            Eckankar is being reduced
                            to sillyness. People who
                            are trully seeking spiritual
                            enlightenment will begin
                            to leave. Those that are
                            comfortable with authority
                            and rules and regulations
                            will hang on.

                            Much like the old churches
                            some people feel safe if
                            they are told how to get
                            to heven and avoid hell.
                            I imagin Harold is trying
                            to incorporate the Eck
                            teachings with christian
                            beliefs as that is Harolds
                            background.

                            I am afraid it is a marrage
                            that is doomed to failure.
                            Hopefully sooner than later.
                            Diana


                            <prometheus wrote:
                            >
                            > Hello Diana and All,
                            > Klemp cares about
                            > the more youthful
                            > image he's projecting
                            > in the PR brochures
                            > and his official pic
                            > displayed in EK Centers
                            > and at Intros because
                            > it appeals to younger
                            > people more than his
                            > old real life image does!
                            >
                            > Thus, more suckers
                            > are attracted to the
                            > bait and switch packaging
                            > versus the reality which
                            > would repel them. LOL!
                            >
                            > At a Seminar (after
                            > seeing Klemp) they
                            > simply decide to stay
                            > until he gets done talking.
                            > Klemp was never too
                            > photogenic anyway but
                            > now he's really getting
                            > pathetic looking... as
                            > a Mahanta/God!
                            >
                            > Really, how can Eckists
                            > believe in or talk about
                            > the ECK Masters like
                            > Rebazar, who are
                            > supposedly over 500
                            > years old and still maintain
                            > a physical body, when
                            > Klemp claims to be the
                            > greatest and most spiritually
                            > advanced Mahanta ever!
                            > Yet, he's wasting away!
                            > It doesn't make sense if
                            > it was true! The truth is
                            > there are No ECK Masters
                            > and Klemp is a phony!
                            >
                            > Pretend can be fun and
                            > the imagination can make
                            > the mundane magical,
                            > it's an escape, and it can
                            > be used (as lies) to explain
                            > things in mythological and
                            > unscientific terms because
                            > science can't explain it
                            > away with concrete analysis
                            > and proven facts. Besides,
                            > would most people listen?
                            > Therefore, the ECK Masters
                            > are as imagined as the
                            > characters in Harry Potter,
                            > or the Lord of the Rings,
                            > et al.
                            >
                            > Thus, if Eckankar was for
                            > real Klemp wouldn't be
                            > aging and rapidly! He'd
                            > look like Rebazar or one
                            > of the other portraits of
                            > those fake ECK Masters.
                            >
                            > Funny that the artist who
                            > did the latest ECK Master
                            > portraits made them look
                            > younger than Klemp's real-
                            > time current photo (not the
                            > embellished portrait)! Just
                            > go the eckankar.org and
                            > see for yourself! It's comical!
                            >
                            > Prometheus
                            >
                            >
                            > dianastanley wrote:
                            > I don't understand why
                            > he cares what he looks
                            > like he never hardly ever
                            > makes public appearences.
                            > Maybe he has a double
                            > to do all public pr work!!!
                            > Diana
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > <prometheus wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Hello Diana and All,
                            > > At one time Klemp tried
                            > > contact lens but eventually
                            > > switched back to glasses.
                            > > I'm told he received some
                            > > criticism, from H.I.s via
                            > > chelas, that contacts were
                            > > more of a vanity issue than
                            > > a sight/vision issue. ECKists
                            > > can't have their mealy looking
                            > > Mahanta project a fraudulent
                            > > appearance because that
                            > > would indicate other frauds
                            > > might be taking place and
                            > > perpetuated. LOL!
                            > >
                            > > However, I've also read that
                            > > contacts can offer people
                            > > better vision than glasses,
                            > > but maybe that was just
                            > > a slanted PR story to sell
                            > > a product like Eckankar
                            > > does.
                            > >
                            > > I'm assuming that this is
                            > > why Klemp won't dye his
                            > > hair or get hair plugs. I
                            > > wonder what else Klemp
                            > > does, or doesn't do, that
                            > > is natural? Boxers, briefs,
                            > > or commando?
                            > >
                            > > Prometheus
                            > >
                            > > dianastanley wrote:
                            > > maybe he should try botox
                            > > or a face lift. It would be
                            > > a miricale that he got his
                            > > youth back!
                            > > Diana
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > <prometheus wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Hello All,
                            > > > This is simply more proof
                            > > > of Eckankar's deceptions.
                            > > >
                            > > > It's come to my attention
                            > > > that Klemp is still using
                            > > > a 10-15 old photo as his
                            > > > "Official Photo" which is
                            > > > to be displayed at ECK
                            > > > functions and EK Centers.
                            > > >
                            > > > WHY? Really, why is this
                            > > > being done?
                            > > >
                            > > > Isn't Klemp comfortable
                            > > > with his aging?
                            > > >
                            > > > On the front page of the
                            > > > September, 2011 "The
                            > > > Mystic World of ECKankar"
                            > > > is a current photo of Klemp.
                            > > >
                            > > > However, if one looks at
                            > > > the back page where "The
                            > > > Wisdom Notes" are given
                            > > > there is the older "Official
                            > > > Photo" depicting a younger
                            > > > looking Klemp.
                            > > >
                            > > > Is the real and present day
                            > > > photo depicting the Outer
                            > > > LEM while the "Official (past)
                            > > > Photo" depicting the Inner
                            > > > Master/Mahanta? Is that
                            > > > Klemp's rationale for this
                            > > > subliminal trickery?
                            > > >
                            > > > Really, I don't think that this
                            > > > issue has ever been addressed
                            > > > since ECKists aren't permitted
                            > > > to ask such questions without
                            > > > risking reprisals by their RESAs
                            > > > or via the ESC (Klemp).
                            > > >
                            > > > But, in Eckankar, what is reality?
                            > > > Is it anything one wants to deny
                            > > > and imagine differently as you
                            > > > like it?
                            > > >
                            > > > This photo switch is simply
                            > > > another trick that Klemp uses
                            > > > to cloud the minds and reasoning
                            > > > abilities of his followers so they
                            > > > can feel good about their religion
                            > > > of pretend Masters, Initiations,
                            > > > and Planes of Consciousness.
                            > > >
                            > > > This denial of the obvious is
                            > > > why ECKists are comfortable
                            > > > and passive sheep and/or are
                            > > > chickens in the EK hen house.
                            > > > However, on the other hand,
                            > > > ECKists are stressed out as
                            > > > well.
                            > > >
                            > > > ECKists must be Vahanas/
                            > > > Missionary's and give Service
                            > > > to Klemp (and Lip Service to
                            > > > the public) in order to advance
                            > > > and/or to maintain their status
                            > > > as official spokespersons.
                            > > >
                            > > > The Lip Service is when they
                            > > > give the "official" presentations
                            > > > which omit facts with the guise
                            > > > of being "too much spiritual
                            > > > food" for the seeker to handle.
                            > > >
                            > > > Come on, just tell them how
                            > > > long it will probably take them
                            > > > to become free of Karma or
                            > > > reach the 5th initiation! And,
                            > > > how many more years (and
                            > > > what's required) it should
                            > > > take them to reach the 7th
                            > > > initiation. Then tell them
                            > > > how long it will be for them
                            > > > to reach the 8th initiation...
                            > > > maybe the RESA would know
                            > > > that answer. LOL!
                            > > >
                            > > > Prometheus
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > From Dec, 2009:
                            > > > Isn't it strange that a "spiritual
                            > > > master" (a Mahanta) would still
                            > > > be using an outdated photo.
                            > > > This shows that Klemp is attached
                            > > > to KAL's lower plane influences.
                            > > > This is more proof that HK has
                            > > > fallen from SUGMAD's Grace (not
                            > > > that he ever had it). Still, for some
                            > > > ECKists Klemp's youthful appearance
                            > > > attachment must be confusing.
                            > > > Others simply turn a Blind Eye
                            > > > to it all... they like the public
                            > > > seeing the younger looking photo.
                            > > > It's less embarrassing than the
                            > > > real thing. H.I.s, especially, live
                            > > > in a state of denial because it's
                            > > > comfortable and convenient
                            > > > and EK Membership has become
                            > > > habitual and ego driven.
                            > > >
                            > > > {Note: Annual EK Membership
                            > > > is actually required in order to
                            > > > receive and keep initiations. The
                            > > > reenrolling of one's membership
                            > > > must become habitual or risk
                            > > > losing the fake connection with
                            > > > the Inner via the outer monetary
                            > > > membership requirement. Thus,
                            > > > EK membership is ego, as well as,
                            > > > fear driven.}
                            > > >
                            > > > Prometheus
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