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Re: Klemp's Vanity - His Wisdom Notes and EK Brochure Photo

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  • prometheus_973
    Hello Etznab, This just goes to show that Klemp changes his direction as much as Twit did. it s to keep Eckists off-balance and confused. He s talking out of
    Message 1 of 21 , Dec 20, 2009
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      Hello Etznab,
      This just goes to show that Klemp
      changes his direction as much as
      Twit did. it's to keep Eckists off-balance
      and confused. He's talking out of
      both both sides of his mouth at the
      same time... like a true KAL agent.

      Many H.I.s see HK's (LEM) outer words
      and the outer EK Works as Limiting
      (Lower) Mental Plane filler. Thus, they
      tend to look to the "pure and higher
      Inner teachings" (of the Mahanta) as
      the true message.

      These inner plane experiences, however,
      is a Catch-22 because they have to have
      Klemp's approval of their "higher" inner
      experiences in order for these to be validated.

      The only way this can be achieved is
      via snail-mail EK publications or by
      HK mentioning their experiences in
      his Seminar talks. Again, this is delayed
      and is another (KAL) Mental Plane form
      of communication.

      Thus, H.I.s, especially, will rationalize
      and pick and choose what guidelines
      and/or EK dogma that is acceptable
      for them to follow. Most H.I.s are just
      treading water, but how long can that
      continue?

      BTW- This Mahanta Consciousness thing...
      what Initiation Level does one have to be
      in order to obtain this? Is it Higher than
      God-Consciousness (Realization)? An H.I.
      has to be a 12th for God-Realization...
      right?

      Prometheus


      etznab wrote:

      "Paradoxical as it may seem, my point in bringing
      out all of this has been to strengthen your faith in the
      Mahanta but not at the expense of making a god
      out of the Mahanta's vehicle, which is the Living ECK
      Master. It's a price we cannot afford to pay. As soon
      as we set someone above us, in potential or in fact,
      we have committed a crime against ourselves: We
      have limited the opportunity for our own unfoldment."

      [Based on: Article (The Real Foundation), by Harold Klemp

      http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/writings.html#ideal

      "We are making an effort to construct a physical history
      of ECKANKAR, looking for actual physical records to
      verify the existence of some of the ECK Masters in a way
      that historians of the future will be able to accept; some-
      thing beyond just the words of one of the Living ECK
      Masters of the past. It will be vital for the survival of
      ECKANKAR as a religious teaching in the future."

      Based on: Harold Klemp, The Secret Teachings, p. 246

      The living Eck Master is a "vehicle" for "Mahanta"?

      We are looking for something "[....] beyond just the
      words of one of the Living ECK Masters of the past"?

      ******************************************************************

      I don't think it wrong for one to state opinions, perspectives,
      ask questions and / or seek to discuss the topic of "Living
      Masters" as vehicles for what has been called "Mahanta".
      Even if it means not making God(s) out of the "vehicles".

      Etznab


      etznab wrote:
      Those were some good points, Prometheus. The topic
      of "mahanta" seems (IMO) central to the teachings of
      Eckankar. However, I'm suspicious about why people
      on the outer would seek to identify with what is surely
      an inner reality living with each & every person / being.

      There are a couple excerpts containing the word
      "mahanta" I wanted to share in order to make a
      point, or two, about what it seems to be. To me.
      What is my perspective / opinion, at least.

      ************************************************************

      Christ Consciousness and the Mahanta Consciousness

      "There is a saying in the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad that
      behind all faces and all people is the Mahanta. [....]"

      http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisSearch.html

      ************************************************************

      Working with Higher Consciousness

      "Many people don't quite understand what it means to
      work with the Mahanta Consciousness. They think merely
      opening up in their consciousness makes them a pure
      channel for the ECK at the highest level of the Mahanta
      Consciousness. If this were true, a Second Initiate of pure
      heart could become the Mahanta, and the outer initiations
      wouldn't count.

      "To fully have the Mahanta Consciousness means to reach
      a certain inner as well as outer initiation. In ECK there is
      always the balance between the inner and the outer. Until we
      have this balance, we have yet to become a Co-worker with
      God. [....]"

      http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisSearch.html

      ************************************************************

      The 2nd paragraph in the Working with Higher Consciousness
      quote is one I want to share a perspective on. First sentence,
      that is.

      "To fully have the Mahanta Consciousness means to reach a
      certain inner as well as outer initiation."

      If the "Mahanta" is the "Inner Master" then why is an outer in-
      iation required to fully have Mahanta Consciousness? In that
      paragraph I quoted, Harold talked about balancing of inner &
      outer. Does this mean "Mahanta" / "Mahanta Consciousness
      has inner and outer elements? Or, the inner awareness of a
      person need be balanced with the outer? In this case, "inner"
      being connected with "mahanta" / "mahanta consciousness"?

      "[....] In ECK there is always the balance between the inner and
      the outer. Until we have this balance, we have yet to become a
      Co-worker with God."

      Maybe this is just another way of saying (If I can quote some
      Metallica lyrics): "Obey your Master! Master!"

      My perspective is that it looks confusing to speak about higher
      awareness / consciousness, an Inner and Outer Master, etc. &
      introduce those ideas from the source of an outer authority. As
      from a form of organized religion with "imperfect" outer writings.

      Those three sections of quotes were from 1985. And yet, there
      was a book (Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, Book One) written back in
      early 1970's attempting to explain the "Mahanta". In my opinion
      the "outer" was NOT the same as the "inner". Plain and simple.
      I believe there was a form of "trinity" spelled out. One of which
      was "Eternal Mahanta".

      So, basically, I think an idea of this "ever-present, higher inner
      awareness" embodied in a human form was inevitable in human
      history. Simply because whoever talked about it would naturally
      be associated with what they were talking about. Otherwise,
      how would they know (what they were talking about)? Authority
      about higher awareness and states of consciousness took on a
      outer form. IMO. And one that differed / differs according to the
      particular religion, dogma, history, etc.

      Does anybody see the potential danger with a trusting in outer
      authority blindly? Accepting everything literally? Perhaps this
      is something that needs to be balanced by the "inner" higher
      awareness / consciousness? Because in this case it makes
      sense to me it's not an outer authority living inside my head,
      not some human being person established inside of myself
      which is the Inner Master and highest state of consciousness
      existing always. That is something on another level altogether
      that doesn't become extracted from inner to the outer where it
      chooses to live in one single human body at a time telling all
      other human bodies that no, it is not there on the outer, no, it
      is on the inner where you need to look. It is the inner where
      the "mahanta" truly resides. And in the same breath implying
      that the "mahanta" is the same as one human being living in
      a physical body. One human being with outer authority to de-
      termine the level of initiation (outer at least) for practically all
      other people in the entire universe!

      It's confusing, IMO. Balancing this "inner" and "outer" thing
      when the two are perceived to be the same, when truly they
      are not the same. In my opinion.

      Is the inner "individual highest consciousness" present with
      all beings going to balance the outer? Or, Is the outer - and in
      the form of other beings independent from the individual - going
      to "balance" (perhaps seek to control) the inner? It might just
      be that words are not sufficient to bring clarity on this topic.
      Or, it might be that outer authority is not sufficient to identify
      itself with a "inner" or "highest state of consciousness" within
      every single individual / being. I suspect.

      Besides, some of the authority about what is "mahanta" can
      be found in books by other authors. Even places where that
      was not the original term in some teachings. Mahatma may
      have been in its place. I'm referring to the writings of Julian J.
      and where he spells out the characteristics of a living master,
      how you can tell one, what is one, etc. etc.

      Some of Johnson's quotes appear in the Eckankar writings,
      but (some of them) changed in some ways. In my opinion. I
      see this as "imperfect outer teachings" and not what came
      from some "being on the inner".

      Etznab

      prometheus wrote:

      The LEM/Mahanta position represents
      an ideal and a goal (for men) to strive
      for in this lifetime. Women will have to
      come back as men (in future lifetimes)
      in order to have a shot at the title. The
      same goes for "Pope" and numerous
      other religious titles. This is the way
      religion works on planet earth.

      People have to elevate one of their own
      in order to feel close to God and have
      him speak for them. Plus, they need
      one voice to speak back to them and
      to relay what God has said. It's less
      confusing that way. Religion is used
      to control the masses so that chaos
      doesn't reign.

      Manmade laws aren't enough, however.
      Mankind needs answers to explain Why
      and How it all began. Of course these
      are what each Soul needs to discover
      on their own. it's private and subjective.
      Actually, this is the way it used to be
      in Eckankar. ECKists weren't to share
      an inner meeting with the Master or
      things of this nature. You didn't want
      to make others feel bad if they hadn't
      had any inner experiences. Of course
      sometimes people lied like Twitchell
      and made things up or embellished
      the stories too. Some people just need
      attention. It got especially bad if a
      new member had an elaborate dream
      experience when the H.I.s hadn't!

      Sometimes religion can give one a jump
      start, (in the beginning), and from there
      a person can begin their own unique Journey
      with the Divine.

      But, the politicians and religionists
      don't want these people to become
      free thinkers. That would lead to Truth
      and the lies might be revealed to others.
      This would be bad for those in power.
      They don't want people to wake-up
      and smell the coffee. Thus, Klemp is
      against drinking coffee! Let's face it...
      the more stupid and fearful people are
      the easier it is to control them.

      Thus, the educational system, especially
      in the U.U., is deprived of qualified
      teachers and text books that are updated
      and revised to reveal a more complete
      and objective view of history. However,
      proficiency tests are taught so that schools
      receive their funding, thus, a real education
      is postponed.

      Those children that are "home schooled"
      due to religious beliefs end up being even
      more out-of-touch with society and much
      less educated.

      This (below) site has comments that
      aren't too far away from fanatical EK
      beliefs and show the hatred, fear, and
      stupidity that religions have propagated
      over time. Klemp's recent comments in
      "Youth Ask a Modern Prophet about Life,
      Love and God" show how religion is used
      to control and stifle individualized behaviour.

      http://www.fstdt.com/Top100.aspx?archive=1

      Prometheus

      etznab wrote:

      I remember reading recently in the Shariyat-
      Ki-Sugmad about "Mahanta".

      The idea of something existing always and
      since the beginning of time was connected
      to the term (see "Eternal Mahanta").

      In my opinion, the idea of something of this
      nature accords more with a higher state of
      consciousness, or what some popularly call
      a "higher self" available to all people & with
      them at all times whether they realize all of
      it, or not, in a single physical lifetime.

      So I naturally asked myself, What has this
      "Mahanta" have to do with being represented
      by any one person above all others? And if a
      living person dies, then what happens to that
      "Eternal Mahanta"? Surely it doesn't die with
      them. I thought. Because that wouldn't be a
      thing always existing. A thing always with a
      person. Like consciousness.

      What I found was that "mahanta", defined by
      Paul Twitchell and Eckankar, was associated
      with a state of consciousness. Therefore, the
      Paul Twitchell / Eckankar definition: Mahanta
      Consciousness.

      In most - if not all - paths similar to illustrated
      Eckankar teachings about a "Living Master" I
      find the emphasis of one particular individual &
      "representation" of God by them. And though
      it might be said "mahanta" gives the initiation,
      it appears to be up to a single individual - ulti-
      mately - at the organization level at least, and
      feedback from other "Higher Initiates" about a
      person and whether they qualify for initiation.

      I think most people can identify with a form of
      "higher self" in the form of consciousness in a
      potential form always existing - whether all of
      it be realized by a single person on Earth at a
      given time, or in a given lifetime.

      What happened in 1971 after Paul Twitchell
      died and before the next Living Master was
      appointed? What happened to "Mahanta Con-
      sciousness"? I don't think anything happened
      to it since it existed since the beginning and
      is existing always. However, some might say
      it defaulted to the "Torch Bearer" Rebazar T.
      I asked myself: Why need it have to go to a
      single person? Is not "higher consciousness",
      even the "highest" present with "God" for all
      time? Why does something like this have to
      be held by a "single individual"? Especially a
      person in the physical body? or other bodies,
      which are "limited" in relation to "God"?

      Does anybody here believe that something like
      "higher consciousness" exists in potential form
      and is available to all persons? I'm not talking
      about what religious dogma says. Eckankar in-
      cluded.

      I ask the former since I wonder if this is what
      "Eckankar" - and paths similar to it - were re-
      ferring to before the worship of Living Masters
      took over. Before the idea of "God in a single
      man" came into vogue. I mean, is it closer to
      reality that "higher consciousness" does not
      exist like a "property" belonging to a single
      person which all other people have to pay for,
      or rent, in order to partake?

      Then there is the "inner master" thing and an
      association of "mahanta" with that. Well, how
      can one person claim rights to it? I mean,
      what happens when that "one person" dies?
      When the physical "outer master" form dies?

      I think this "inner master" / "mahanta" thing
      is something that doesn't belong to a single
      individual and / or religion. I think what does
      belong to the latter is the "DEFINITION" of it.
      Something which hardly qualifies as unlimit-
      ed. IMO.

      All a religion and religious leaders can do is
      serve as "guides" (for better, or for worse),
      the same as anybody else, in my opinion. I
      seriously doubt they own truth to the extent
      of "renting" it, "selling" it when practically all
      religions and religious leaders are inherently
      limited when it comes to what a person has
      to (MUST) do / realize for them self.

      The popularity of religion in history sprang up
      (IMO) when people realized they could profit
      from offering what knowledge existed for the
      subjects of creation, life, death, the afterlife
      and heaven, etc. It did not matter so much if
      the "knowledge" was all true. Stories were a
      source of income, too. IMO. Even in some of
      the temples people employed inventions for
      the manifestation of apparent miracles. What
      they got in return were donations. Of course,
      they didn't tell people the real source of the
      miracles. Otherwise donations might become
      less.

      Etznab

      P.S. Anybody heard a good story lately? I
      might have a use for it :)

      Prometheus wrote:

      Isn't it strange that a "spiritual master"
      (a Mahanta) would still be using an
      outdated photo. This shows that Klemp
      is attached to KAL's lower plane influences.
      This is more proof that HK has fallen
      from SUGMAD's Grace (not that he ever
      had it). Still, for some ECKists Klemp's
      youthful appearance attachment must
      be confusing. Others simply turn a Blind
      Eye to it all... they like the public seeing
      the younger looking photo. It's less
      embarrassing than the real thing. H.I.s,
      especially, live in a state of denial because
      it's comfortable and convenient and
      EK Membership has become habitual
      and ego driven.

      Prometheus
    • prometheus_973
      Hello Etznab, You said, Wasn t the far ancient past like some kind of Golden Age anyway? Compared to today? I don t think so, but it s all relevant to who
      Message 2 of 21 , Dec 20, 2009
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        Hello Etznab,
        You said, "Wasn't the far ancient past
        like some kind of "Golden Age" anyway?
        Compared to today?"

        I don't think so, but it's all relevant to
        who you are and where you are and
        when you were there, as well as, one's
        state of mind. Some people are experiencing
        the "Golden Age" now while others have
        experienced their "Golden Age" in a past
        lifetime. It doesn't necessarily have to
        involve the consciousness of world society...
        only yours and from your perspective.
        All else is illusion and a test for Soul.
        However, the knowledge of true
        history is an aide for us to expand our
        current awareness and to help made
        it better for those who come after us.


        "Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
        truth escape us? How might that have happ-
        ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
        in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
        was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
        untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
        fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
        ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
        blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
        as literally true."


        One can look at different stages and timeframes
        of any society and see where the past was
        better, in some areas, and worse in other
        areas.

        Censorship has always been a control tactic
        used by those in power and how it's used has
        varied. ECKankar has censorship too, and most
        H.I.s know what many of the boundaries are.
        Why censorship is condoned is related to having
        an "EK membership card." One has to follow
        the rules and be a part of the herd. That's why
        many H.I.s turn a blind-eye and deaf-ear to
        most of it in order to have ECKankar work for
        them as it is with any religious belief system.
        Blind Faith, Narrow Thinking, and the constant
        use of the Imagination are key for EK to "work."

        And, after all, Why doesn't Klemp have PT's
        historic book "Difficulties Of Becoming The
        Living ECK Master" reprinted by ECKankar?
        It's because Klemp can't handle the truth
        that it would reveal nor be able to deal with
        the questions and doubt that would ensue.
        Thus, we have censorship which is a negative
        effect caused by Klemp's negative (lower
        KAL plane) fears and deceit!

        Prometheus




        etznab wrote:
        [....] Even in some of the temples people employed
        inventions for the manifestation of apparent miracles.
        What they got in return were donations. Of course,
        they didn't tell people the real source of the miracles.
        Otherwise donations might become less. [....]"

        Something from the description of the movie I saw
        where it documented various forms of deception that
        were employed to make miracles appear to happen
        using different forms of technology. This is where it
        appears that science was used to promote ideas of
        miracle-working gods existing behind the scenes. It
        was a perversion of not only religion, but of science
        as well. In my opinion:

        "Set firmly at the intersection of religion, science
        and commerce, the latest episode of ANCIENT
        DISCOVERIES travels to Rome and Greece to
        explore the commissioning, fabrication and pre-
        sentation of marvels meant to instill awe and draw
        hordes of deep-pocketed devotees. You will be
        amazed to learn how the greatest minds of the age
        were turned to the construction of what were little
        more than parlor tricks, albeit enormously sophist-
        icated and impressive ones."

        http://shop.history.com/detail.php?p=69989&ecid=SEO-0000046&pa=SEO-SSP

        I believe that program appeared on the History
        Channel some time back.

        Add to this the fact people have fabricated even
        ancient artifacts to frauduently propagate church
        history, have told stories that were mythological
        and / or symbolic - but accepted as literal truth,
        used teachings and quotes from the past which
        were fragmentary, little understood, and / or in a
        language nobody today completely understands,
        etc., and I see ample reason to be skeptical. To
        investigate, examine and even question "outer"
        forms of teachings - from science to religion.

        Today it appears ironic how religion and science
        are apparently divided, when many have argued
        it was not always the case. Col. James Church-
        ward speaking about "religion" in Lemuria gives
        an opinion that religion was described in terms
        a child could understand. Also, that religion and
        science were not two separate things in the very
        beginning. In fact, it is my belief, religion was
        described in "scientific" terms then because the
        people knew how both were connected.

        So, when science today is used to investigate,
        examine and, in some cases expose religious
        fraud I think it helps to remember how science
        was not always the record of ignorance about
        how things work that is in existence today.

        And, in my opinion, some people from earlier
        times may have been much more advanced,
        not less advanced (generally), compared with
        people living today. Looking at remains of the
        past through a modern (ignorant of the past)
        lens and portraying them as less civilized,
        less knowledgeable and less wise is (IMO) a
        major insult to history. I'm talking particularly
        about the ancient and far ancient past. Times
        when monuments were constructed and tech-
        nology existed that people today are still try-
        ing to fathom.

        Wasn't the far ancient past like some kind of
        "Golden Age" anyway? Compared to today?
        Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
        truth escape us? How might that have happ-
        ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
        in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
        was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
        untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
        fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
        ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
        blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
        as literally true.

        Etznab
      • etznab@aol.com
        Prometheus, I believe the term mahanta consciousness evolved over time according to descriptions given to it via Eckankar. Like, what was it? 1969 before
        Message 3 of 21 , Dec 20, 2009
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          Prometheus,

          I believe the term "mahanta consciousness"
          evolved over time according to descriptions
          given to it via Eckankar. Like, what was it?
          1969 before Paul mentioned "mahanta" in
          a wisdom note and The Flute of God? The
          fuller descriptions of L.E.M. & Mahanta did
          not appear until the last couple years in the
          life of Paul Twitchell when he set out to ex-
          plain them in the Shariyat books, I believe.
          1970-1971?

          In some earlier books with Rebazar Tarzs
          I don't know that the word "mahanta" was
          even given much mention, if at all. I think
          the term "spiritual traveler" was mentioned
          more.

          Also, I have to consider the appearance in
          Paul T's early dictionary for the term, and
          where so many people (some legendary)
          from history were said to be the mahanta
          consciousness as vehicle for the Sugmad
          as it appeared to .... (in so many words),
          etc.

          Jesus and Krishna were both mentioned.
          And yet, Jesus is generally understood -
          in Eckankar history - to have been a 2nd
          initiate only.

          So what initiation level is the "mahanta
          consciousness"? I couldn't tell you. All I
          can say (at this point) is the definitions
          have apparently evolved over the years. I
          believe that when the teachings became
          a religion in July 1970 that "mahanta" &
          L.E.M. merged to become identified as
          the same thing around that time. Since I
          suspect Eckankar had to be defined for
          legal purposes and one of the things they
          ask you (IMO) is: What is the title of the
          person in charge & who is that person?

          This is speculation on my part. Paul did
          mention at least 3 "levels" of Mahanta -
          I believe - in the Shariyat. Including the
          "Eternal Mahanta" and "Historical Maha-
          anta". All of these merged into the head
          of the religion and organization of Eck-
          ankar at some point, if you ask me. It is
          very hard for the organization to separate
          them from the leader of Eckankar, IMO,
          as that might suggest the physical body,
          the vehicle and leader of Eckankar is but
          a limited form of "highest consciousness".
          Remember the last part for the definition
          for Mahanta Consciousnes used to be:

          "[....] a state of God consciousness which
          is beyond the titles given in religions which
          designate states of consciousness; the
          highest of all states of consciousness."

          [See: Paul Twitchell Dictionary]

          It means not so much of anything to me
          what appears beside the definition(s) for
          "mahanta" today unless I can prove that
          information to be true. I think Paul said &
          wrote a lot of stuff. I also think he exagg-
          erated in some places. Besides that I do
          not see how a highest state of conscious-
          ness can be identified with a human and
          limited vehicle. I'll give you an example.
          Suppose a leader of Eckankar has / had
          a physical disability of some kind. Even
          suppose a leader died. How can human
          beings limited by the physical senses &
          human mortality equate with a "highest
          state of consciousness"? Or, the highest?
          Especially one such as called "Eternal
          Mahanta" present from the beginning of
          time?

          Some things (including the highest of all
          states of consciousness) became at one
          point identified with a single human being,
          IMO. This is what I suspect, at least.

          Etznab


          -----Original Message-----
          From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sun, Dec 20, 2009 2:50 pm
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp's Vanity - His Wisdom
          Notes and EK Brochure Photo

           
          Hello Etznab,
          You said, "Wasn't the far ancient past
          like some kind of "Golden Age" anyway?
          Compared to today?"

          I don't think so, but it's all relevant to
          who you are and where you are and
          when you were there, as well as, one's
          state of mind. Some people are experiencing
          the "Golden Age" now while others have
          experienced their "Golden Age" in a past
          lifetime. It doesn't necessarily have to
          involve the consciousness of world society...
          only yours and from your perspective.
          All else is illusion and a test for Soul.
          However, the knowledge of true
          history is an aide for us to expand our
          current awareness and to help made
          it better for those who come after us.

          "Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
          truth escape us? How might that have happ-
          ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
          in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
          was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
          untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
          fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
          ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
          blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
          as literally true."

          One can look at different stages and timeframes
          of any society and see where the past was
          better, in some areas, and worse in other
          areas.

          Censorship has always been a control tactic
          used by those in power and how it's used has
          varied. ECKankar has censorship too, and most
          H.I.s know what many of the boundaries are.
          Why censorship is condoned is related to having
          an "EK membership card." One has to follow
          the rules and be a part of the herd. That's why
          many H.I.s turn a blind-eye and deaf-ear to
          most of it in order to have ECKankar work for
          them as it is with any religious belief system.
          Blind Faith, Narrow Thinking, and the constant
          use of the Imagination are key for EK to "work."

          And, after all, Why doesn't Klemp have PT's
          historic book "Difficulties Of Becoming The
          Living ECK Master" reprinted by ECKankar?
          It's because Klemp can't handle the truth
          that it would reveal nor be able to deal with
          the questions and doubt that would ensue.
          Thus, we have censorship which is a negative
          effect caused by Klemp's negative (lower
          KAL plane) fears and deceit!

          Prometheus

          etznab wrote:
          [....] Even in some of the temples people employed
          inventions for the manifestation of apparent miracles.
          What they got in return were donations. Of course,
          they didn't tell people the real source of the miracles.
          Otherwise donations might become less. [....]"

          Something from the description of the movie I saw
          where it documented various forms of deception that
          were employed to make miracles appear to happen
          using different forms of technology. This is where it
          appears that science was used to promote ideas of
          miracle-working gods existing behind the scenes. It
          was a perversion of not only religion, but of science
          as well. In my opinion:

          "Set firmly at the intersection of religion, science
          and commerce, the latest episode of ANCIENT
          DISCOVERIES travels to Rome and Greece to
          explore the commissioning, fabrication and pre-
          sentation of marvels meant to instill awe and draw
          hordes of deep-pocketed devotees. You will be
          amazed to learn how the greatest minds of the age
          were turned to the construction of what were little
          more than parlor tricks, albeit enormously sophist-
          icated and impressive ones."

          http://shop.history.com/detail.php?p=69989&ecid=SEO-0000046&pa=SEO-SSP

          I believe that program appeared on the History
          Channel some time back.

          Add to this the fact people have fabricated even
          ancient artifacts to frauduently propagate church
          history, have told stories that were mythological
          and / or symbolic - but accepted as literal truth,
          used teachings and quotes from the past which
          were fragmentary, little understood, and / or in a
          language nobody today completely understands,
          etc., and I see ample reason to be skeptical. To
          investigate, examine and even question "outer"
          forms of teachings - from science to religion.

          Today it appears ironic how religion and science
          are apparently divided, when many have argued
          it was not always the case. Col. James Church-
          ward speaking about "religion" in Lemuria gives
          an opinion that religion was described in terms
          a child could understand. Also, that religion and
          science were not two separate things in the very
          beginning. In fact, it is my belief, religion was
          described in "scientific" terms then because the
          people knew how both were connected.

          So, when science today is used to investigate,
          examine and, in some cases expose religious
          fraud I think it helps to remember how science
          was not always the record of ignorance about
          how things work that is in existence today.

          And, in my opinion, some people from earlier
          times may have been much more advanced,
          not less advanced (generally), compared with
          people living today. Looking at remains of the
          past through a modern (ignorant of the past)
          lens and portraying them as less civilized,
          less knowledgeable and less wise is (IMO) a
          major insult to history. I'm talking particularly
          about the ancient and far ancient past. Times
          when monuments were constructed and tech-
          nology existed that people today are still try-
          ing to fathom.

          Wasn't the far ancient past like some kind of
          "Golden Age" anyway? Compared to today?
          Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
          truth escape us? How might that have happ-
          ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
          in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
          was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
          untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
          fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
          ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
          blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
          as literally true.

          Etznab
        • prometheus_973
          You make some good points Etznab. I would say that the Roman God Jupiter was an Astral Plane God that was created by the Romans. Then again, I think that all
          Message 4 of 21 , Dec 20, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            You make some good points Etznab.
            I would say that the Roman God Jupiter
            was an Astral Plane God that was created
            by the Romans. Then again, I think that
            all of those Gods that religions worship
            have been created by men. Is it no wonder,
            then, that in PT's Eckankar Dictionary
            and in Klemp's 1998 EK Lexicon that they
            both state that the Roman God "Jupiter
            was the Mahanta Consciousness to the
            Romans." Thus, by definition, the Mahanta
            is also a 2nd Plane God and is, therefore,
            of the Astral Plane of Consciousness which
            is ruled by KAL (Satan, devil).

            Prometheus


            etznab wrote:

            rometheus,

            I believe the term "mahanta consciousness"
            evolved over time according to descriptions
            given to it via Eckankar. Like, what was it?
            1969 before Paul mentioned "mahanta" in
            a wisdom note and The Flute of God? The
            fuller descriptions of L.E.M. & Mahanta did
            not appear until the last couple years in the
            life of Paul Twitchell when he set out to ex-
            plain them in the Shariyat books, I believe.
            1970-1971?

            In some earlier books with Rebazar Tarzs
            I don't know that the word "mahanta" was
            even given much mention, if at all. I think
            the term "spiritual traveler" was mentioned
            more.

            Also, I have to consider the appearance in
            Paul T's early dictionary for the term, and
            where so many people (some legendary)
            from history were said to be the mahanta
            consciousness as vehicle for the Sugmad
            as it appeared to .... (in so many words),
            etc.

            Jesus and Krishna were both mentioned.
            And yet, Jesus is generally understood -
            in Eckankar history - to have been a 2nd
            initiate only.

            So what initiation level is the "mahanta
            consciousness"? I couldn't tell you. All I
            can say (at this point) is the definitions
            have apparently evolved over the years. I
            believe that when the teachings became
            a religion in July 1970 that "mahanta" &
            L.E.M. merged to become identified as
            the same thing around that time. Since I
            suspect Eckankar had to be defined for
            legal purposes and one of the things they
            ask you (IMO) is: What is the title of the
            person in charge & who is that person?

            This is speculation on my part. Paul did
            mention at least 3 "levels" of Mahanta -
            I believe - in the Shariyat. Including the
            "Eternal Mahanta" and "Historical Maha-
            anta". All of these merged into the head
            of the religion and organization of Eck-
            ankar at some point, if you ask me. It is
            very hard for the organization to separate
            them from the leader of Eckankar, IMO,
            as that might suggest the physical body,
            the vehicle and leader of Eckankar is but
            a limited form of "highest consciousness".
            Remember the last part for the definition
            for Mahanta Consciousnes used to be:

            "[....] a state of God consciousness which
            is beyond the titles given in religions which
            designate states of consciousness; the
            highest of all states of consciousness."

            [See: Paul Twitchell Dictionary]

            It means not so much of anything to me
            what appears beside the definition(s) for
            "mahanta" today unless I can prove that
            information to be true. I think Paul said &
            wrote a lot of stuff. I also think he exagg-
            erated in some places. Besides that I do
            not see how a highest state of conscious-
            ness can be identified with a human and
            limited vehicle. I'll give you an example.
            Suppose a leader of Eckankar has / had
            a physical disability of some kind. Even
            suppose a leader died. How can human
            beings limited by the physical senses &
            human mortality equate with a "highest
            state of consciousness"? Or, the highest?
            Especially one such as called "Eternal
            Mahanta" present from the beginning of
            time?

            Some things (including the highest of all
            states of consciousness) became at one
            point identified with a single human being,
            IMO. This is what I suspect, at least.

            Etznab


            prometheus wrote:
            Hello Etznab,
            You said, "Wasn't the far ancient past
            like some kind of "Golden Age" anyway?
            Compared to today?"

            I don't think so, but it's all relevant to
            who you are and where you are and
            when you were there, as well as, one's
            state of mind. Some people are experiencing
            the "Golden Age" now while others have
            experienced their "Golden Age" in a past
            lifetime. It doesn't necessarily have to
            involve the consciousness of world society...
            only yours and from your perspective.
            All else is illusion and a test for Soul.
            However, the knowledge of true
            history is an aide for us to expand our
            current awareness and to help made
            it better for those who come after us.

            "Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
            truth escape us? How might that have happ-
            ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
            in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
            was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
            untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
            fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
            ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
            blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
            as literally true."

            One can look at different stages and timeframes
            of any society and see where the past was
            better, in some areas, and worse in other
            areas.

            Censorship has always been a control tactic
            used by those in power and how it's used has
            varied. ECKankar has censorship too, and most
            H.I.s know what many of the boundaries are.
            Why censorship is condoned is related to having
            an "EK membership card." One has to follow
            the rules and be a part of the herd. That's why
            many H.I.s turn a blind-eye and deaf-ear to
            most of it in order to have ECKankar work for
            them as it is with any religious belief system.
            Blind Faith, Narrow Thinking, and the constant
            use of the Imagination are key for EK to "work."

            And, after all, Why doesn't Klemp have PT's
            historic book "Difficulties Of Becoming The
            Living ECK Master" reprinted by ECKankar?
            It's because Klemp can't handle the truth
            that it would reveal nor be able to deal with
            the questions and doubt that would ensue.
            Thus, we have censorship which is a negative
            effect caused by Klemp's negative (lower
            KAL plane) fears and deceit!

            Prometheus

            etznab wrote:
            [....] Even in some of the temples people employed
            inventions for the manifestation of apparent miracles.
            What they got in return were donations. Of course,
            they didn't tell people the real source of the miracles.
            Otherwise donations might become less. [....]"

            Something from the description of the movie I saw
            where it documented various forms of deception that
            were employed to make miracles appear to happen
            using different forms of technology. This is where it
            appears that science was used to promote ideas of
            miracle-working gods existing behind the scenes. It
            was a perversion of not only religion, but of science
            as well. In my opinion:

            "Set firmly at the intersection of religion, science
            and commerce, the latest episode of ANCIENT
            DISCOVERIES travels to Rome and Greece to
            explore the commissioning, fabrication and pre-
            sentation of marvels meant to instill awe and draw
            hordes of deep-pocketed devotees. You will be
            amazed to learn how the greatest minds of the age
            were turned to the construction of what were little
            more than parlor tricks, albeit enormously sophist-
            icated and impressive ones."

            http://shop.history.com/detail.php?p=69989&ecid=SEO-0000046&pa=SEO-SSP

            I believe that program appeared on the History
            Channel some time back.

            Add to this the fact people have fabricated even
            ancient artifacts to frauduently propagate church
            history, have told stories that were mythological
            and / or symbolic - but accepted as literal truth,
            used teachings and quotes from the past which
            were fragmentary, little understood, and / or in a
            language nobody today completely understands,
            etc., and I see ample reason to be skeptical. To
            investigate, examine and even question "outer"
            forms of teachings - from science to religion.

            Today it appears ironic how religion and science
            are apparently divided, when many have argued
            it was not always the case. Col. James Church-
            ward speaking about "religion" in Lemuria gives
            an opinion that religion was described in terms
            a child could understand. Also, that religion and
            science were not two separate things in the very
            beginning. In fact, it is my belief, religion was
            described in "scientific" terms then because the
            people knew how both were connected.

            So, when science today is used to investigate,
            examine and, in some cases expose religious
            fraud I think it helps to remember how science
            was not always the record of ignorance about
            how things work that is in existence today.

            And, in my opinion, some people from earlier
            times may have been much more advanced,
            not less advanced (generally), compared with
            people living today. Looking at remains of the
            past through a modern (ignorant of the past)
            lens and portraying them as less civilized,
            less knowledgeable and less wise is (IMO) a
            major insult to history. I'm talking particularly
            about the ancient and far ancient past. Times
            when monuments were constructed and tech-
            nology existed that people today are still try-
            ing to fathom.

            Wasn't the far ancient past like some kind of
            "Golden Age" anyway? Compared to today?
            Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
            truth escape us? How might that have happ-
            ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
            in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
            was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
            untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
            fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
            ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
            blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
            as literally true.

            Etznab
          • etznab@aol.com
            The words as it appeared to are interesting to me in those definitions for mahanta consciousness . This suggests to me that the M.C. can appear to people
            Message 5 of 21 , Dec 21, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              The words "as it appeared to" are interesting to me
              in those definitions for "mahanta consciousness".

              This suggests to me that the "M.C." can appear to
              people under so many different forms. Like Jesus,
              Krishna, Jupiter, etc.

              Also interesting was how Krishna was described in
              somewhat negative terms by both Julian Johnson &
              Paul Twitchell. At other times the description is not
              so negative.

              In about the 1970s though, Paul appears to elaborate
              further about "mahanta". He describes the "historical"
              and "eternal" mahantas. I believe. There was a third
              in the group (trinity) as well.

              Perhaps Paul Twitchell, Darwin Gross and Harold K.
              fit into the category of "historical" mahanta? (Right
              along there with Jesus, Jupiter and Krishna, etc.?)

              Of course some of those characters are composed
              of myths and the literal history dubious and far from
              reality in some places. IMO.

              BTW, I see no entry for "Eternal Mahanta" and / or
              "Historical Mahanta" in Harold Klemp & Eckankar's
              Lexicon. I don't believe they have an entry in Paul T.
              Eckankar dictionary either.

              I believe the Eckankar dictionary came out in 1973
              and after Paul Twitchell was already dead. However,
              I believe it was in Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad (1970?) that
              Paul elaborated on "mahanta". I will have to check
              to see whether Darwin Gross or Harold Klemp wrote
              about eternal, or historical mahantas and the reason
              for illustrating them.

              Etznab


              -----Original Message-----
              From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sun, Dec 20, 2009 10:37 pm
              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp's Vanity - His Wisdom
              Notes and EK Brochure Photo

               
              You make some good points Etznab.
              I would say that the Roman God Jupiter
              was an Astral Plane God that was created
              by the Romans. Then again, I think that
              all of those Gods that religions worship
              have been created by men. Is it no wonder,
              then, that in PT's Eckankar Dictionary
              and in Klemp's 1998 EK Lexicon that they
              both state that the Roman God "Jupiter
              was the Mahanta Consciousness to the
              Romans." Thus, by definition, the Mahanta
              is also a 2nd Plane God and is, therefore,
              of the Astral Plane of Consciousness which
              is ruled by KAL (Satan, devil).

              Prometheus

              etznab wrote:

              rometheus,

              I believe the term "mahanta consciousness"
              evolved over time according to descriptions
              given to it via Eckankar. Like, what was it?
              1969 before Paul mentioned "mahanta" in
              a wisdom note and The Flute of God? The
              fuller descriptions of L.E.M. & Mahanta did
              not appear until the last couple years in the
              life of Paul Twitchell when he set out to ex-
              plain them in the Shariyat books, I believe.
              1970-1971?

              In some earlier books with Rebazar Tarzs
              I don't know that the word "mahanta" was
              even given much mention, if at all. I think
              the term "spiritual traveler" was mentioned
              more.

              Also, I have to consider the appearance in
              Paul T's early dictionary for the term, and
              where so many people (some legendary)
              from history were said to be the mahanta
              consciousness as vehicle for the Sugmad
              as it appeared to .... (in so many words),
              etc.

              Jesus and Krishna were both mentioned.
              And yet, Jesus is generally understood -
              in Eckankar history - to have been a 2nd
              initiate only.

              So what initiation level is the "mahanta
              consciousness"? I couldn't tell you. All I
              can say (at this point) is the definitions
              have apparently evolved over the years. I
              believe that when the teachings became
              a religion in July 1970 that "mahanta" &
              L.E.M. merged to become identified as
              the same thing around that time. Since I
              suspect Eckankar had to be defined for
              legal purposes and one of the things they
              ask you (IMO) is: What is the title of the
              person in charge & who is that person?

              This is speculation on my part. Paul did
              mention at least 3 "levels" of Mahanta -
              I believe - in the Shariyat. Including the
              "Eternal Mahanta" and "Historical Maha-
              anta". All of these merged into the head
              of the religion and organization of Eck-
              ankar at some point, if you ask me. It is
              very hard for the organization to separate
              them from the leader of Eckankar, IMO,
              as that might suggest the physical body,
              the vehicle and leader of Eckankar is but
              a limited form of "highest consciousness".
              Remember the last part for the definition
              for Mahanta Consciousnes used to be:

              "[....] a state of God consciousness which
              is beyond the titles given in religions which
              designate states of consciousness; the
              highest of all states of consciousness."

              [See: Paul Twitchell Dictionary]

              It means not so much of anything to me
              what appears beside the definition(s) for
              "mahanta" today unless I can prove that
              information to be true. I think Paul said &
              wrote a lot of stuff. I also think he exagg-
              erated in some places. Besides that I do
              not see how a highest state of conscious-
              ness can be identified with a human and
              limited vehicle. I'll give you an example.
              Suppose a leader of Eckankar has / had
              a physical disability of some kind. Even
              suppose a leader died. How can human
              beings limited by the physical senses &
              human mortality equate with a "highest
              state of consciousness"? Or, the highest?
              Especially one such as called "Eternal
              Mahanta" present from the beginning of
              time?

              Some things (including the highest of all
              states of consciousness) became at one
              point identified with a single human being,
              IMO. This is what I suspect, at least.

              Etznab

              prometheus wrote:
              Hello Etznab,
              You said, "Wasn't the far ancient past
              like some kind of "Golden Age" anyway?
              Compared to today?"

              I don't think so, but it's all relevant to
              who you are and where you are and
              when you were there, as well as, one's
              state of mind. Some people are experiencing
              the "Golden Age" now while others have
              experienced their "Golden Age" in a past
              lifetime. It doesn't necessarily have to
              involve the consciousness of world society...
              only yours and from your perspective.
              All else is illusion and a test for Soul.
              However, the knowledge of true
              history is an aide for us to expand our
              current awareness and to help made
              it better for those who come after us.

              "Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
              truth escape us? How might that have happ-
              ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
              in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
              was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
              untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
              fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
              ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
              blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
              as literally true."

              One can look at different stages and timeframes
              of any society and see where the past was
              better, in some areas, and worse in other
              areas.

              Censorship has always been a control tactic
              used by those in power and how it's used has
              varied. ECKankar has censorship too, and most
              H.I.s know what many of the boundaries are.
              Why censorship is condoned is related to having
              an "EK membership card." One has to follow
              the rules and be a part of the herd. That's why
              many H.I.s turn a blind-eye and deaf-ear to
              most of it in order to have ECKankar work for
              them as it is with any religious belief system.
              Blind Faith, Narrow Thinking, and the constant
              use of the Imagination are key for EK to "work."

              And, after all, Why doesn't Klemp have PT's
              historic book "Difficulties Of Becoming The
              Living ECK Master" reprinted by ECKankar?
              It's because Klemp can't handle the truth
              that it would reveal nor be able to deal with
              the questions and doubt that would ensue.
              Thus, we have censorship which is a negative
              effect caused by Klemp's negative (lower
              KAL plane) fears and deceit!

              Prometheus

              etznab wrote:
              [....] Even in some of the temples people employed
              inventions for the manifestation of apparent miracles.
              What they got in return were donations. Of course,
              they didn't tell people the real source of the miracles.
              Otherwise donations might become less. [....]"

              Something from the description of the movie I saw
              where it documented various forms of deception that
              were employed to make miracles appear to happen
              using different forms of technology. This is where it
              appears that science was used to promote ideas of
              miracle-working gods existing behind the scenes. It
              was a perversion of not only religion, but of science
              as well. In my opinion:

              "Set firmly at the intersection of religion, science
              and commerce, the latest episode of ANCIENT
              DISCOVERIES travels to Rome and Greece to
              explore the commissioning, fabrication and pre-
              sentation of marvels meant to instill awe and draw
              hordes of deep-pocketed devotees. You will be
              amazed to learn how the greatest minds of the age
              were turned to the construction of what were little
              more than parlor tricks, albeit enormously sophist-
              icated and impressive ones."

              http://shop.history.com/detail.php?p=69989&amp;ecid=SEO-0000046&pa=SEO-SSP

              I believe that program appeared on the History
              Channel some time back.

              Add to this the fact people have fabricated even
              ancient artifacts to frauduently propagate church
              history, have told stories that were mythological
              and / or symbolic - but accepted as literal truth,
              used teachings and quotes from the past which
              were fragmentary, little understood, and / or in a
              language nobody today completely understands,
              etc., and I see ample reason to be skeptical. To
              investigate, examine and even question "outer"
              forms of teachings - from science to religion.

              Today it appears ironic how religion and science
              are apparently divided, when many have argued
              it was not always the case. Col. James Church-
              ward speaking about "religion" in Lemuria gives
              an opinion that religion was described in terms
              a child could understand. Also, that religion and
              science were not two separate things in the very
              beginning. In fact, it is my belief, religion was
              described in "scientific" terms then because the
              people knew how both were connected.

              So, when science today is used to investigate,
              examine and, in some cases expose religious
              fraud I think it helps to remember how science
              was not always the record of ignorance about
              how things work that is in existence today.

              And, in my opinion, some people from earlier
              times may have been much more advanced,
              not less advanced (generally), compared with
              people living today. Looking at remains of the
              past through a modern (ignorant of the past)
              lens and portraying them as less civilized,
              less knowledgeable and less wise is (IMO) a
              major insult to history. I'm talking particularly
              about the ancient and far ancient past. Times
              when monuments were constructed and tech-
              nology existed that people today are still try-
              ing to fathom.

              Wasn't the far ancient past like some kind of
              "Golden Age" anyway? Compared to today?
              Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
              truth escape us? How might that have happ-
              ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
              in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
              was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
              untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
              fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
              ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
              blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
              as literally true.

              Etznab
            • prometheus_973
              You re right! Klemp has said that, Jupiter was the Mahanta Consciousness as it appeared to the Romans, or as it appears to EKists via the LEM! BTW- The
              Message 6 of 21 , Dec 21, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                You're right! Klemp has said that, "Jupiter
                was the 'Mahanta Consciousness' as it appeared
                to the Romans," or "as it appears" to EKists
                via the LEM!

                BTW- The term you were probably looking for
                is: "Adi-Mahanta. The primordial Mahanta. The
                line of Mastership begun with RAMA, the first
                world Savior, which has been handed down through
                the centuries by the ECK Masters via Oral Secret
                Teachings to those who were Initiated into the
                Order of the Vairagi." (EK Lexicon, 1998, pg. 3)

                This is interesting because this same "Rama"
                is an Indian God who HK claims "brought the
                ECK to India and later to the Aryans, the Fifth
                Root Race." So, the First Mahanta only came
                on-the-scene during the time of the Fifth Root
                Race. And, this title and Consciousness was created
                by the Vairagi Masters and not by Sugmad directly
                (pg.172).

                Now, if someone were to look up "Aryans" in
                HK's 1998 EK Lexicon they would see that this
                is the current ruling race. BTW- "RAMA" was not
                listed as being a Mahanta in the EK Lexicon...
                only a LEM. Why wouldn't Klemp list him as
                a (Full) Mahanta? Maybe he's more detailed in
                the new EK Lexicon and has done another
                Tweak (reedit).

                However, the truth is that Twitchell created
                Eckankar's Mahanta circa Jan. 1, 1969. And,
                "Mahanta" actually means "monastery head."
                Marman and many other EKists know this, but
                for Eckankar to work as a belief system one
                has to have "faith" and toss reason aside! This
                is how religions work... No Thinking is needed!

                Prometheus




                etznab wrote:

                The words "as it appeared to" are interesting to me
                in those definitions for "mahanta consciousness".

                This suggests to me that the "M.C." can appear to
                people under so many different forms. Like Jesus,
                Krishna, Jupiter, etc.

                Also interesting was how Krishna was described in
                somewhat negative terms by both Julian Johnson &
                Paul Twitchell. At other times the description is not
                so negative.

                In about the 1970s though, Paul appears to elaborate
                further about "mahanta". He describes the "historical"
                and "eternal" mahantas. I believe. There was a third
                in the group (trinity) as well.

                Perhaps Paul Twitchell, Darwin Gross and Harold K.
                fit into the category of "historical" mahanta? (Right
                along there with Jesus, Jupiter and Krishna, etc.?)

                Of course some of those characters are composed
                of myths and the literal history dubious and far from
                reality in some places. IMO.

                BTW, I see no entry for "Eternal Mahanta" and / or
                "Historical Mahanta" in Harold Klemp & Eckankar's
                Lexicon. I don't believe they have an entry in Paul T.
                Eckankar dictionary either.

                I believe the Eckankar dictionary came out in 1973
                and after Paul Twitchell was already dead. However,
                I believe it was in Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad (1970?) that
                Paul elaborated on "mahanta". I will have to check
                to see whether Darwin Gross or Harold Klemp wrote
                about eternal, or historical mahantas and the reason
                for illustrating them.

                Etznab


                prometheus wrote:
                You make some good points Etznab.
                I would say that the Roman God Jupiter
                was an Astral Plane God that was created
                by the Romans. Then again, I think that
                all of those Gods that religions worship
                have been created by men. Is it no wonder,
                then, that in PT's Eckankar Dictionary
                and in Klemp's 1998 EK Lexicon that they
                both state that the Roman God "Jupiter
                was the Mahanta Consciousness to the
                Romans." Thus, by definition, the Mahanta
                is also a 2nd Plane God and is, therefore,
                of the Astral Plane of Consciousness which
                is ruled by KAL (Satan, devil).

                Prometheus

                etznab wrote:

                rometheus,

                I believe the term "mahanta consciousness"
                evolved over time according to descriptions
                given to it via Eckankar. Like, what was it?
                1969 before Paul mentioned "mahanta" in
                a wisdom note and The Flute of God? The
                fuller descriptions of L.E.M. & Mahanta did
                not appear until the last couple years in the
                life of Paul Twitchell when he set out to ex-
                plain them in the Shariyat books, I believe.
                1970-1971?

                In some earlier books with Rebazar Tarzs
                I don't know that the word "mahanta" was
                even given much mention, if at all. I think
                the term "spiritual traveler" was mentioned
                more.

                Also, I have to consider the appearance in
                Paul T's early dictionary for the term, and
                where so many people (some legendary)
                from history were said to be the mahanta
                consciousness as vehicle for the Sugmad
                as it appeared to .... (in so many words),
                etc.

                Jesus and Krishna were both mentioned.
                And yet, Jesus is generally understood -
                in Eckankar history - to have been a 2nd
                initiate only.

                So what initiation level is the "mahanta
                consciousness"? I couldn't tell you. All I
                can say (at this point) is the definitions
                have apparently evolved over the years. I
                believe that when the teachings became
                a religion in July 1970 that "mahanta" &
                L.E.M. merged to become identified as
                the same thing around that time. Since I
                suspect Eckankar had to be defined for
                legal purposes and one of the things they
                ask you (IMO) is: What is the title of the
                person in charge & who is that person?

                This is speculation on my part. Paul did
                mention at least 3 "levels" of Mahanta -
                I believe - in the Shariyat. Including the
                "Eternal Mahanta" and "Historical Maha-
                anta". All of these merged into the head
                of the religion and organization of Eck-
                ankar at some point, if you ask me. It is
                very hard for the organization to separate
                them from the leader of Eckankar, IMO,
                as that might suggest the physical body,
                the vehicle and leader of Eckankar is but
                a limited form of "highest consciousness".
                Remember the last part for the definition
                for Mahanta Consciousnes used to be:

                "[....] a state of God consciousness which
                is beyond the titles given in religions which
                designate states of consciousness; the
                highest of all states of consciousness."

                [See: Paul Twitchell Dictionary]

                It means not so much of anything to me
                what appears beside the definition(s) for
                "mahanta" today unless I can prove that
                information to be true. I think Paul said &
                wrote a lot of stuff. I also think he exagg-
                erated in some places. Besides that I do
                not see how a highest state of conscious-
                ness can be identified with a human and
                limited vehicle. I'll give you an example.
                Suppose a leader of Eckankar has / had
                a physical disability of some kind. Even
                suppose a leader died. How can human
                beings limited by the physical senses &
                human mortality equate with a "highest
                state of consciousness"? Or, the highest?
                Especially one such as called "Eternal
                Mahanta" present from the beginning of
                time?

                Some things (including the highest of all
                states of consciousness) became at one
                point identified with a single human being,
                IMO. This is what I suspect, at least.

                Etznab

                prometheus wrote:
                Hello Etznab,
                You said, "Wasn't the far ancient past
                like some kind of "Golden Age" anyway?
                Compared to today?"

                I don't think so, but it's all relevant to
                who you are and where you are and
                when you were there, as well as, one's
                state of mind. Some people are experiencing
                the "Golden Age" now while others have
                experienced their "Golden Age" in a past
                lifetime. It doesn't necessarily have to
                involve the consciousness of world society...
                only yours and from your perspective.
                All else is illusion and a test for Soul.
                However, the knowledge of true
                history is an aide for us to expand our
                current awareness and to help made
                it better for those who come after us.

                "Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
                truth escape us? How might that have happ-
                ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
                in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
                was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
                untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
                fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
                ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
                blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
                as literally true."

                One can look at different stages and timeframes
                of any society and see where the past was
                better, in some areas, and worse in other
                areas.

                Censorship has always been a control tactic
                used by those in power and how it's used has
                varied. ECKankar has censorship too, and most
                H.I.s know what many of the boundaries are.
                Why censorship is condoned is related to having
                an "EK membership card." One has to follow
                the rules and be a part of the herd. That's why
                many H.I.s turn a blind-eye and deaf-ear to
                most of it in order to have ECKankar work for
                them as it is with any religious belief system.
                Blind Faith, Narrow Thinking, and the constant
                use of the Imagination are key for EK to "work."

                And, after all, Why doesn't Klemp have PT's
                historic book "Difficulties Of Becoming The
                Living ECK Master" reprinted by ECKankar?
                It's because Klemp can't handle the truth
                that it would reveal nor be able to deal with
                the questions and doubt that would ensue.
                Thus, we have censorship which is a negative
                effect caused by Klemp's negative (lower
                KAL plane) fears and deceit!

                Prometheus

                etznab wrote:
                [....] Even in some of the temples people employed
                inventions for the manifestation of apparent miracles.
                What they got in return were donations. Of course,
                they didn't tell people the real source of the miracles.
                Otherwise donations might become less. [....]"

                Something from the description of the movie I saw
                where it documented various forms of deception that
                were employed to make miracles appear to happen
                using different forms of technology. This is where it
                appears that science was used to promote ideas of
                miracle-working gods existing behind the scenes. It
                was a perversion of not only religion, but of science
                as well. In my opinion:

                "Set firmly at the intersection of religion, science
                and commerce, the latest episode of ANCIENT
                DISCOVERIES travels to Rome and Greece to
                explore the commissioning, fabrication and pre-
                sentation of marvels meant to instill awe and draw
                hordes of deep-pocketed devotees. You will be
                amazed to learn how the greatest minds of the age
                were turned to the construction of what were little
                more than parlor tricks, albeit enormously sophist-
                icated and impressive ones."

                http://shop.history.com/detail.php?p=69989&amp;ecid=SEO-0000046&pa=SEO-SSP

                I believe that program appeared on the History
                Channel some time back.

                Add to this the fact people have fabricated even
                ancient artifacts to frauduently propagate church
                history, have told stories that were mythological
                and / or symbolic - but accepted as literal truth,
                used teachings and quotes from the past which
                were fragmentary, little understood, and / or in a
                language nobody today completely understands,
                etc., and I see ample reason to be skeptical. To
                investigate, examine and even question "outer"
                forms of teachings - from science to religion.

                Today it appears ironic how religion and science
                are apparently divided, when many have argued
                it was not always the case. Col. James Church-
                ward speaking about "religion" in Lemuria gives
                an opinion that religion was described in terms
                a child could understand. Also, that religion and
                science were not two separate things in the very
                beginning. In fact, it is my belief, religion was
                described in "scientific" terms then because the
                people knew how both were connected.

                So, when science today is used to investigate,
                examine and, in some cases expose religious
                fraud I think it helps to remember how science
                was not always the record of ignorance about
                how things work that is in existence today.

                And, in my opinion, some people from earlier
                times may have been much more advanced,
                not less advanced (generally), compared with
                people living today. Looking at remains of the
                past through a modern (ignorant of the past)
                lens and portraying them as less civilized,
                less knowledgeable and less wise is (IMO) a
                major insult to history. I'm talking particularly
                about the ancient and far ancient past. Times
                when monuments were constructed and tech-
                nology existed that people today are still try-
                ing to fathom.

                Wasn't the far ancient past like some kind of
                "Golden Age" anyway? Compared to today?
                Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
                truth escape us? How might that have happ-
                ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
                in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
                was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
                untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
                fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
                ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
                blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
                as literally true.

                Etznab
              • prometheus_973
                Hello All, FIRST- Let s move on from the ECK chela nut/fanatic that s been sending out negative emails to ESA site members. We all know that as above, so
                Message 7 of 21 , Jan 6, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hello All,
                  FIRST- Let's move on from the ECK
                  chela nut/fanatic that's been sending
                  out negative emails to ESA site members.
                  We all know that "as above, so below"
                  is a direct factor and cause of his imbalance.

                  ******
                  You're right Etznab! Klemp has said that,
                  "Jupiter was the 'Mahanta Consciousness'
                  as it appeared to the Romans," or "as it
                  appears" to EKists via the LEM!

                  BTW- The term you were probably looking for
                  is: "Adi-Mahanta. The primordial Mahanta. The
                  line of Mastership begun with RAMA, the first
                  world Savior, which has been handed down through
                  the centuries by the ECK Masters via Oral Secret
                  Teachings to those who were Initiated into the
                  Order of the Vairagi." (EK Lexicon, 1998, pg. 3)

                  This is interesting because this same "Rama"
                  is an Indian God who HK claims "brought the
                  ECK to India and later to the Aryans, the Fifth
                  Root Race." So, the First Mahanta only came
                  on-the-scene during the time of the Fifth Root
                  Race. And, this title and Consciousness was created
                  by the Vairagi Masters and not by Sugmad directly
                  (pg.172).

                  Now, if someone were to look up "Aryans" in
                  HK's 1998 EK Lexicon they would see that this
                  is the current ruling race. BTW- "RAMA" was not
                  listed as being a Mahanta in the EK Lexicon...
                  only a LEM. Why wouldn't Klemp list him as
                  a (Full) Mahanta? Maybe he's more detailed in
                  the new EK Lexicon and has done another
                  Tweak (reedit).

                  However, the truth is that Twitchell created
                  Eckankar's Mahanta circa Jan. 1, 1969. And,
                  "Mahanta" actually means "monastery head."
                  Marman and many other EKists know this, but
                  for Eckankar to work as a belief system one
                  has to have "faith" and toss reason aside! This
                  is how religions work... No Thinking is needed!

                  Prometheus




                  etznab wrote:

                  The words "as it appeared to" are interesting to me
                  in those definitions for "mahanta consciousness".

                  This suggests to me that the "M.C." can appear to
                  people under so many different forms. Like Jesus,
                  Krishna, Jupiter, etc.

                  Also interesting was how Krishna was described in
                  somewhat negative terms by both Julian Johnson &
                  Paul Twitchell. At other times the description is not
                  so negative.

                  In about the 1970s though, Paul appears to elaborate
                  further about "mahanta". He describes the "historical"
                  and "eternal" mahantas. I believe. There was a third
                  in the group (trinity) as well.

                  Perhaps Paul Twitchell, Darwin Gross and Harold K.
                  fit into the category of "historical" mahanta? (Right
                  along there with Jesus, Jupiter and Krishna, etc.?)

                  Of course some of those characters are composed
                  of myths and the literal history dubious and far from
                  reality in some places. IMO.

                  BTW, I see no entry for "Eternal Mahanta" and / or
                  "Historical Mahanta" in Harold Klemp & Eckankar's
                  Lexicon. I don't believe they have an entry in Paul T.
                  Eckankar dictionary either.

                  I believe the Eckankar dictionary came out in 1973
                  and after Paul Twitchell was already dead. However,
                  I believe it was in Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad (1970?) that
                  Paul elaborated on "mahanta". I will have to check
                  to see whether Darwin Gross or Harold Klemp wrote
                  about eternal, or historical mahantas and the reason
                  for illustrating them.

                  Etznab


                  prometheus wrote:
                  You make some good points Etznab.
                  I would say that the Roman God Jupiter
                  was an Astral Plane God that was created
                  by the Romans. Then again, I think that
                  all of those Gods that religions worship
                  have been created by men. Is it no wonder,
                  then, that in PT's Eckankar Dictionary
                  and in Klemp's 1998 EK Lexicon that they
                  both state that the Roman God "Jupiter
                  was the Mahanta Consciousness to the
                  Romans." Thus, by definition, the Mahanta
                  is also a 2nd Plane God and is, therefore,
                  of the Astral Plane of Consciousness which
                  is ruled by KAL (Satan, devil).

                  Prometheus

                  etznab wrote:

                  rometheus,

                  I believe the term "mahanta consciousness"
                  evolved over time according to descriptions
                  given to it via Eckankar. Like, what was it?
                  1969 before Paul mentioned "mahanta" in
                  a wisdom note and The Flute of God? The
                  fuller descriptions of L.E.M. & Mahanta did
                  not appear until the last couple years in the
                  life of Paul Twitchell when he set out to ex-
                  plain them in the Shariyat books, I believe.
                  1970-1971?

                  In some earlier books with Rebazar Tarzs
                  I don't know that the word "mahanta" was
                  even given much mention, if at all. I think
                  the term "spiritual traveler" was mentioned
                  more.

                  Also, I have to consider the appearance in
                  Paul T's early dictionary for the term, and
                  where so many people (some legendary)
                  from history were said to be the mahanta
                  consciousness as vehicle for the Sugmad
                  as it appeared to .... (in so many words),
                  etc.

                  Jesus and Krishna were both mentioned.
                  And yet, Jesus is generally understood -
                  in Eckankar history - to have been a 2nd
                  initiate only.

                  So what initiation level is the "mahanta
                  consciousness"? I couldn't tell you. All I
                  can say (at this point) is the definitions
                  have apparently evolved over the years. I
                  believe that when the teachings became
                  a religion in July 1970 that "mahanta" &
                  L.E.M. merged to become identified as
                  the same thing around that time. Since I
                  suspect Eckankar had to be defined for
                  legal purposes and one of the things they
                  ask you (IMO) is: What is the title of the
                  person in charge & who is that person?

                  This is speculation on my part. Paul did
                  mention at least 3 "levels" of Mahanta -
                  I believe - in the Shariyat. Including the
                  "Eternal Mahanta" and "Historical Maha-
                  anta". All of these merged into the head
                  of the religion and organization of Eck-
                  ankar at some point, if you ask me. It is
                  very hard for the organization to separate
                  them from the leader of Eckankar, IMO,
                  as that might suggest the physical body,
                  the vehicle and leader of Eckankar is but
                  a limited form of "highest consciousness".
                  Remember the last part for the definition
                  for Mahanta Consciousnes used to be:

                  "[....] a state of God consciousness which
                  is beyond the titles given in religions which
                  designate states of consciousness; the
                  highest of all states of consciousness."

                  [See: Paul Twitchell Dictionary]

                  It means not so much of anything to me
                  what appears beside the definition(s) for
                  "mahanta" today unless I can prove that
                  information to be true. I think Paul said &
                  wrote a lot of stuff. I also think he exagg-
                  erated in some places. Besides that I do
                  not see how a highest state of conscious-
                  ness can be identified with a human and
                  limited vehicle. I'll give you an example.
                  Suppose a leader of Eckankar has / had
                  a physical disability of some kind. Even
                  suppose a leader died. How can human
                  beings limited by the physical senses &
                  human mortality equate with a "highest
                  state of consciousness"? Or, the highest?
                  Especially one such as called "Eternal
                  Mahanta" present from the beginning of
                  time?

                  Some things (including the highest of all
                  states of consciousness) became at one
                  point identified with a single human being,
                  IMO. This is what I suspect, at least.

                  Etznab

                  prometheus wrote:
                  Hello Etznab,
                  You said, "Wasn't the far ancient past
                  like some kind of "Golden Age" anyway?
                  Compared to today?"

                  I don't think so, but it's all relevant to
                  who you are and where you are and
                  when you were there, as well as, one's
                  state of mind. Some people are experiencing
                  the "Golden Age" now while others have
                  experienced their "Golden Age" in a past
                  lifetime. It doesn't necessarily have to
                  involve the consciousness of world society...
                  only yours and from your perspective.
                  All else is illusion and a test for Soul.
                  However, the knowledge of true
                  history is an aide for us to expand our
                  current awareness and to help made
                  it better for those who come after us.

                  "Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
                  truth escape us? How might that have happ-
                  ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
                  in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
                  was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
                  untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
                  fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
                  ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
                  blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
                  as literally true."

                  One can look at different stages and timeframes
                  of any society and see where the past was
                  better, in some areas, and worse in other
                  areas.

                  Censorship has always been a control tactic
                  used by those in power and how it's used has
                  varied. ECKankar has censorship too, and most
                  H.I.s know what many of the boundaries are.
                  Why censorship is condoned is related to having
                  an "EK membership card." One has to follow
                  the rules and be a part of the herd. That's why
                  many H.I.s turn a blind-eye and deaf-ear to
                  most of it in order to have ECKankar work for
                  them as it is with any religious belief system.
                  Blind Faith, Narrow Thinking, and the constant
                  use of the Imagination are key for EK to "work."

                  And, after all, Why doesn't Klemp have PT's
                  historic book "Difficulties Of Becoming The
                  Living ECK Master" reprinted by ECKankar?
                  It's because Klemp can't handle the truth
                  that it would reveal nor be able to deal with
                  the questions and doubt that would ensue.
                  Thus, we have censorship which is a negative
                  effect caused by Klemp's negative (lower
                  KAL plane) fears and deceit!

                  Prometheus

                  etznab wrote:
                  [....] Even in some of the temples people employed
                  inventions for the manifestation of apparent miracles.
                  What they got in return were donations. Of course,
                  they didn't tell people the real source of the miracles.
                  Otherwise donations might become less. [....]"

                  Something from the description of the movie I saw
                  where it documented various forms of deception that
                  were employed to make miracles appear to happen
                  using different forms of technology. This is where it
                  appears that science was used to promote ideas of
                  miracle-working gods existing behind the scenes. It
                  was a perversion of not only religion, but of science
                  as well. In my opinion:

                  "Set firmly at the intersection of religion, science
                  and commerce, the latest episode of ANCIENT
                  DISCOVERIES travels to Rome and Greece to
                  explore the commissioning, fabrication and pre-
                  sentation of marvels meant to instill awe and draw
                  hordes of deep-pocketed devotees. You will be
                  amazed to learn how the greatest minds of the age
                  were turned to the construction of what were little
                  more than parlor tricks, albeit enormously sophist-
                  icated and impressive ones."

                  http://shop.history.com/detail.php?p=69989&amp;ecid=SEO-0000046&pa=SEO-SSP

                  I believe that program appeared on the History
                  Channel some time back.

                  Add to this the fact people have fabricated even
                  ancient artifacts to frauduently propagate church
                  history, have told stories that were mythological
                  and / or symbolic - but accepted as literal truth,
                  used teachings and quotes from the past which
                  were fragmentary, little understood, and / or in a
                  language nobody today completely understands,
                  etc., and I see ample reason to be skeptical. To
                  investigate, examine and even question "outer"
                  forms of teachings - from science to religion.

                  Today it appears ironic how religion and science
                  are apparently divided, when many have argued
                  it was not always the case. Col. James Church-
                  ward speaking about "religion" in Lemuria gives
                  an opinion that religion was described in terms
                  a child could understand. Also, that religion and
                  science were not two separate things in the very
                  beginning. In fact, it is my belief, religion was
                  described in "scientific" terms then because the
                  people knew how both were connected.

                  So, when science today is used to investigate,
                  examine and, in some cases expose religious
                  fraud I think it helps to remember how science
                  was not always the record of ignorance about
                  how things work that is in existence today.

                  And, in my opinion, some people from earlier
                  times may have been much more advanced,
                  not less advanced (generally), compared with
                  people living today. Looking at remains of the
                  past through a modern (ignorant of the past)
                  lens and portraying them as less civilized,
                  less knowledgeable and less wise is (IMO) a
                  major insult to history. I'm talking particularly
                  about the ancient and far ancient past. Times
                  when monuments were constructed and tech-
                  nology existed that people today are still try-
                  ing to fathom.

                  Wasn't the far ancient past like some kind of
                  "Golden Age" anyway? Compared to today?
                  Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
                  truth escape us? How might that have happ-
                  ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
                  in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
                  was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
                  untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
                  fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
                  ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
                  blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
                  as literally true.

                  Etznab
                • prometheus_973
                  Hello All, This is simply more proof of Eckankar s deceptions. It s come to my attention that Klemp is still using a 10-15 old photo as his Official Photo
                  Message 8 of 21 , Nov 3, 2011
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hello All,
                    This is simply more proof
                    of Eckankar's deceptions.

                    It's come to my attention
                    that Klemp is still using
                    a 10-15 old photo as his
                    "Official Photo" which is
                    to be displayed at ECK
                    functions and EK Centers.

                    WHY? Really, why is this
                    being done?

                    Isn't Klemp comfortable
                    with his aging?

                    On the front page of the
                    September, 2011 "The
                    Mystic World of ECKankar"
                    is a current photo of Klemp.

                    However, if one looks at
                    the back page where "The
                    Wisdom Notes" are given
                    there is the older "Official
                    Photo" depicting a younger
                    looking Klemp.

                    Is the real and present day
                    photo depicting the Outer
                    LEM while the "Official (past)
                    Photo" depicting the Inner
                    Master/Mahanta? Is that
                    Klemp's rationale for this
                    subliminal trickery?

                    Really, I don't think that this
                    issue has ever been addressed
                    since ECKists aren't permitted
                    to ask such questions without
                    risking reprisals by their RESAs
                    or via the ESC (Klemp).

                    But, in Eckankar, what is reality?
                    Is it anything one wants to deny
                    and imagine differently as you
                    like it?

                    This photo switch is simply
                    another trick that Klemp uses
                    to cloud the minds and reasoning
                    abilities of his followers so they
                    can feel good about their religion
                    of pretend Masters, Initiations,
                    and Planes of Consciousness.

                    This denial of the obvious is
                    why ECKists are comfortable
                    and passive sheep and/or are
                    chickens in the EK hen house.
                    However, on the other hand,
                    ECKists are stressed out as
                    well.

                    ECKists must be Vahanas/
                    Missionary's and give Service
                    to Klemp (and Lip Service to
                    the public) in order to advance
                    and/or to maintain their status
                    as official spokespersons.

                    The Lip Service is when they
                    give the "official" presentations
                    which omit facts with the guise
                    of being "too much spiritual
                    food" for the seeker to handle.

                    Come on, just tell them how
                    long it will probably take them
                    to become free of Karma or
                    reach the 5th initiation! And,
                    how many more years (and
                    what's required) it should
                    take them to reach the 7th
                    initiation. Then tell them
                    how long it will be for them
                    to reach the 8th initiation...
                    maybe the RESA would know
                    that answer. LOL!

                    Prometheus



                    From Dec, 2009:
                    Isn't it strange that a "spiritual
                    master" (a Mahanta) would still
                    be using an outdated photo.
                    This shows that Klemp is attached
                    to KAL's lower plane influences.
                    This is more proof that HK has
                    fallen from SUGMAD's Grace (not
                    that he ever had it). Still, for some
                    ECKists Klemp's youthful appearance
                    attachment must be confusing.
                    Others simply turn a Blind Eye
                    to it all... they like the public
                    seeing the younger looking photo.
                    It's less embarrassing than the
                    real thing. H.I.s, especially, live
                    in a state of denial because it's
                    comfortable and convenient
                    and EK Membership has become
                    habitual and ego driven.

                    {Note: Annual EK Membership
                    is actually required in order to
                    receive and keep initiations. The
                    reenrolling of one's membership
                    must become habitual or risk
                    losing the fake connection with
                    the Inner via the outer monetary
                    membership requirement. Thus,
                    EK membership is ego, as well as,
                    fear driven.}

                    Prometheus
                  • Diana Stanley
                    maybe he should try botox or a face lift. It would be a miricale that he got his youth back! Diana
                    Message 9 of 21 , Nov 4, 2011
                    • 0 Attachment
                      maybe he should try botox or a face lift. It would be a miricale that he got his youth back!
                      Diana

                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hello All,
                      > This is simply more proof
                      > of Eckankar's deceptions.
                      >
                      > It's come to my attention
                      > that Klemp is still using
                      > a 10-15 old photo as his
                      > "Official Photo" which is
                      > to be displayed at ECK
                      > functions and EK Centers.
                      >
                      > WHY? Really, why is this
                      > being done?
                      >
                      > Isn't Klemp comfortable
                      > with his aging?
                      >
                      > On the front page of the
                      > September, 2011 "The
                      > Mystic World of ECKankar"
                      > is a current photo of Klemp.
                      >
                      > However, if one looks at
                      > the back page where "The
                      > Wisdom Notes" are given
                      > there is the older "Official
                      > Photo" depicting a younger
                      > looking Klemp.
                      >
                      > Is the real and present day
                      > photo depicting the Outer
                      > LEM while the "Official (past)
                      > Photo" depicting the Inner
                      > Master/Mahanta? Is that
                      > Klemp's rationale for this
                      > subliminal trickery?
                      >
                      > Really, I don't think that this
                      > issue has ever been addressed
                      > since ECKists aren't permitted
                      > to ask such questions without
                      > risking reprisals by their RESAs
                      > or via the ESC (Klemp).
                      >
                      > But, in Eckankar, what is reality?
                      > Is it anything one wants to deny
                      > and imagine differently as you
                      > like it?
                      >
                      > This photo switch is simply
                      > another trick that Klemp uses
                      > to cloud the minds and reasoning
                      > abilities of his followers so they
                      > can feel good about their religion
                      > of pretend Masters, Initiations,
                      > and Planes of Consciousness.
                      >
                      > This denial of the obvious is
                      > why ECKists are comfortable
                      > and passive sheep and/or are
                      > chickens in the EK hen house.
                      > However, on the other hand,
                      > ECKists are stressed out as
                      > well.
                      >
                      > ECKists must be Vahanas/
                      > Missionary's and give Service
                      > to Klemp (and Lip Service to
                      > the public) in order to advance
                      > and/or to maintain their status
                      > as official spokespersons.
                      >
                      > The Lip Service is when they
                      > give the "official" presentations
                      > which omit facts with the guise
                      > of being "too much spiritual
                      > food" for the seeker to handle.
                      >
                      > Come on, just tell them how
                      > long it will probably take them
                      > to become free of Karma or
                      > reach the 5th initiation! And,
                      > how many more years (and
                      > what's required) it should
                      > take them to reach the 7th
                      > initiation. Then tell them
                      > how long it will be for them
                      > to reach the 8th initiation...
                      > maybe the RESA would know
                      > that answer. LOL!
                      >
                      > Prometheus
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > From Dec, 2009:
                      > Isn't it strange that a "spiritual
                      > master" (a Mahanta) would still
                      > be using an outdated photo.
                      > This shows that Klemp is attached
                      > to KAL's lower plane influences.
                      > This is more proof that HK has
                      > fallen from SUGMAD's Grace (not
                      > that he ever had it). Still, for some
                      > ECKists Klemp's youthful appearance
                      > attachment must be confusing.
                      > Others simply turn a Blind Eye
                      > to it all... they like the public
                      > seeing the younger looking photo.
                      > It's less embarrassing than the
                      > real thing. H.I.s, especially, live
                      > in a state of denial because it's
                      > comfortable and convenient
                      > and EK Membership has become
                      > habitual and ego driven.
                      >
                      > {Note: Annual EK Membership
                      > is actually required in order to
                      > receive and keep initiations. The
                      > reenrolling of one's membership
                      > must become habitual or risk
                      > losing the fake connection with
                      > the Inner via the outer monetary
                      > membership requirement. Thus,
                      > EK membership is ego, as well as,
                      > fear driven.}
                      >
                      > Prometheus
                      >
                    • prometheus_973
                      Hello Diana and All, At one time Klemp tried contact lens but eventually switched back to glasses. I m told he received some criticism, from H.I.s via chelas,
                      Message 10 of 21 , Nov 4, 2011
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hello Diana and All,
                        At one time Klemp tried
                        contact lens but eventually
                        switched back to glasses.
                        I'm told he received some
                        criticism, from H.I.s via
                        chelas, that contacts were
                        more of a vanity issue than
                        a sight/vision issue. ECKists
                        can't have their mealy looking
                        Mahanta project a fraudulent
                        appearance because that
                        would indicate other frauds
                        might be taking place and
                        perpetuated. LOL!

                        However, I've also read that
                        contacts can offer people
                        better vision than glasses,
                        but maybe that was just
                        a slanted PR story to sell
                        a product like Eckankar
                        does.

                        I'm assuming that this is
                        why Klemp won't dye his
                        hair or get hair plugs. I
                        wonder what else Klemp
                        does, or doesn't do, that
                        is natural? Boxers, briefs,
                        or commando?

                        Prometheus

                        dianastanley wrote:
                        maybe he should try botox
                        or a face lift. It would be
                        a miricale that he got his
                        youth back!
                        Diana


                        <prometheus wrote:
                        >
                        > Hello All,
                        > This is simply more proof
                        > of Eckankar's deceptions.
                        >
                        > It's come to my attention
                        > that Klemp is still using
                        > a 10-15 old photo as his
                        > "Official Photo" which is
                        > to be displayed at ECK
                        > functions and EK Centers.
                        >
                        > WHY? Really, why is this
                        > being done?
                        >
                        > Isn't Klemp comfortable
                        > with his aging?
                        >
                        > On the front page of the
                        > September, 2011 "The
                        > Mystic World of ECKankar"
                        > is a current photo of Klemp.
                        >
                        > However, if one looks at
                        > the back page where "The
                        > Wisdom Notes" are given
                        > there is the older "Official
                        > Photo" depicting a younger
                        > looking Klemp.
                        >
                        > Is the real and present day
                        > photo depicting the Outer
                        > LEM while the "Official (past)
                        > Photo" depicting the Inner
                        > Master/Mahanta? Is that
                        > Klemp's rationale for this
                        > subliminal trickery?
                        >
                        > Really, I don't think that this
                        > issue has ever been addressed
                        > since ECKists aren't permitted
                        > to ask such questions without
                        > risking reprisals by their RESAs
                        > or via the ESC (Klemp).
                        >
                        > But, in Eckankar, what is reality?
                        > Is it anything one wants to deny
                        > and imagine differently as you
                        > like it?
                        >
                        > This photo switch is simply
                        > another trick that Klemp uses
                        > to cloud the minds and reasoning
                        > abilities of his followers so they
                        > can feel good about their religion
                        > of pretend Masters, Initiations,
                        > and Planes of Consciousness.
                        >
                        > This denial of the obvious is
                        > why ECKists are comfortable
                        > and passive sheep and/or are
                        > chickens in the EK hen house.
                        > However, on the other hand,
                        > ECKists are stressed out as
                        > well.
                        >
                        > ECKists must be Vahanas/
                        > Missionary's and give Service
                        > to Klemp (and Lip Service to
                        > the public) in order to advance
                        > and/or to maintain their status
                        > as official spokespersons.
                        >
                        > The Lip Service is when they
                        > give the "official" presentations
                        > which omit facts with the guise
                        > of being "too much spiritual
                        > food" for the seeker to handle.
                        >
                        > Come on, just tell them how
                        > long it will probably take them
                        > to become free of Karma or
                        > reach the 5th initiation! And,
                        > how many more years (and
                        > what's required) it should
                        > take them to reach the 7th
                        > initiation. Then tell them
                        > how long it will be for them
                        > to reach the 8th initiation...
                        > maybe the RESA would know
                        > that answer. LOL!
                        >
                        > Prometheus
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > From Dec, 2009:
                        > Isn't it strange that a "spiritual
                        > master" (a Mahanta) would still
                        > be using an outdated photo.
                        > This shows that Klemp is attached
                        > to KAL's lower plane influences.
                        > This is more proof that HK has
                        > fallen from SUGMAD's Grace (not
                        > that he ever had it). Still, for some
                        > ECKists Klemp's youthful appearance
                        > attachment must be confusing.
                        > Others simply turn a Blind Eye
                        > to it all... they like the public
                        > seeing the younger looking photo.
                        > It's less embarrassing than the
                        > real thing. H.I.s, especially, live
                        > in a state of denial because it's
                        > comfortable and convenient
                        > and EK Membership has become
                        > habitual and ego driven.
                        >
                        > {Note: Annual EK Membership
                        > is actually required in order to
                        > receive and keep initiations. The
                        > reenrolling of one's membership
                        > must become habitual or risk
                        > losing the fake connection with
                        > the Inner via the outer monetary
                        > membership requirement. Thus,
                        > EK membership is ego, as well as,
                        > fear driven.}
                        >
                        > Prometheus
                      • Diana Stanley
                        I don t understand why he cares what he looks like he never hardly ever makes public appearences. Maybe he has a double to do all public pr work!!! Diana
                        Message 11 of 21 , Nov 6, 2011
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I don't understand why he cares what he looks like he never hardly ever makes public appearences. Maybe he has a double to do all public pr work!!!
                          Diana



                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hello Diana and All,
                          > At one time Klemp tried
                          > contact lens but eventually
                          > switched back to glasses.
                          > I'm told he received some
                          > criticism, from H.I.s via
                          > chelas, that contacts were
                          > more of a vanity issue than
                          > a sight/vision issue. ECKists
                          > can't have their mealy looking
                          > Mahanta project a fraudulent
                          > appearance because that
                          > would indicate other frauds
                          > might be taking place and
                          > perpetuated. LOL!
                          >
                          > However, I've also read that
                          > contacts can offer people
                          > better vision than glasses,
                          > but maybe that was just
                          > a slanted PR story to sell
                          > a product like Eckankar
                          > does.
                          >
                          > I'm assuming that this is
                          > why Klemp won't dye his
                          > hair or get hair plugs. I
                          > wonder what else Klemp
                          > does, or doesn't do, that
                          > is natural? Boxers, briefs,
                          > or commando?
                          >
                          > Prometheus
                          >
                          > dianastanley wrote:
                          > maybe he should try botox
                          > or a face lift. It would be
                          > a miricale that he got his
                          > youth back!
                          > Diana
                          >
                          >
                          > <prometheus wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Hello All,
                          > > This is simply more proof
                          > > of Eckankar's deceptions.
                          > >
                          > > It's come to my attention
                          > > that Klemp is still using
                          > > a 10-15 old photo as his
                          > > "Official Photo" which is
                          > > to be displayed at ECK
                          > > functions and EK Centers.
                          > >
                          > > WHY? Really, why is this
                          > > being done?
                          > >
                          > > Isn't Klemp comfortable
                          > > with his aging?
                          > >
                          > > On the front page of the
                          > > September, 2011 "The
                          > > Mystic World of ECKankar"
                          > > is a current photo of Klemp.
                          > >
                          > > However, if one looks at
                          > > the back page where "The
                          > > Wisdom Notes" are given
                          > > there is the older "Official
                          > > Photo" depicting a younger
                          > > looking Klemp.
                          > >
                          > > Is the real and present day
                          > > photo depicting the Outer
                          > > LEM while the "Official (past)
                          > > Photo" depicting the Inner
                          > > Master/Mahanta? Is that
                          > > Klemp's rationale for this
                          > > subliminal trickery?
                          > >
                          > > Really, I don't think that this
                          > > issue has ever been addressed
                          > > since ECKists aren't permitted
                          > > to ask such questions without
                          > > risking reprisals by their RESAs
                          > > or via the ESC (Klemp).
                          > >
                          > > But, in Eckankar, what is reality?
                          > > Is it anything one wants to deny
                          > > and imagine differently as you
                          > > like it?
                          > >
                          > > This photo switch is simply
                          > > another trick that Klemp uses
                          > > to cloud the minds and reasoning
                          > > abilities of his followers so they
                          > > can feel good about their religion
                          > > of pretend Masters, Initiations,
                          > > and Planes of Consciousness.
                          > >
                          > > This denial of the obvious is
                          > > why ECKists are comfortable
                          > > and passive sheep and/or are
                          > > chickens in the EK hen house.
                          > > However, on the other hand,
                          > > ECKists are stressed out as
                          > > well.
                          > >
                          > > ECKists must be Vahanas/
                          > > Missionary's and give Service
                          > > to Klemp (and Lip Service to
                          > > the public) in order to advance
                          > > and/or to maintain their status
                          > > as official spokespersons.
                          > >
                          > > The Lip Service is when they
                          > > give the "official" presentations
                          > > which omit facts with the guise
                          > > of being "too much spiritual
                          > > food" for the seeker to handle.
                          > >
                          > > Come on, just tell them how
                          > > long it will probably take them
                          > > to become free of Karma or
                          > > reach the 5th initiation! And,
                          > > how many more years (and
                          > > what's required) it should
                          > > take them to reach the 7th
                          > > initiation. Then tell them
                          > > how long it will be for them
                          > > to reach the 8th initiation...
                          > > maybe the RESA would know
                          > > that answer. LOL!
                          > >
                          > > Prometheus
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > From Dec, 2009:
                          > > Isn't it strange that a "spiritual
                          > > master" (a Mahanta) would still
                          > > be using an outdated photo.
                          > > This shows that Klemp is attached
                          > > to KAL's lower plane influences.
                          > > This is more proof that HK has
                          > > fallen from SUGMAD's Grace (not
                          > > that he ever had it). Still, for some
                          > > ECKists Klemp's youthful appearance
                          > > attachment must be confusing.
                          > > Others simply turn a Blind Eye
                          > > to it all... they like the public
                          > > seeing the younger looking photo.
                          > > It's less embarrassing than the
                          > > real thing. H.I.s, especially, live
                          > > in a state of denial because it's
                          > > comfortable and convenient
                          > > and EK Membership has become
                          > > habitual and ego driven.
                          > >
                          > > {Note: Annual EK Membership
                          > > is actually required in order to
                          > > receive and keep initiations. The
                          > > reenrolling of one's membership
                          > > must become habitual or risk
                          > > losing the fake connection with
                          > > the Inner via the outer monetary
                          > > membership requirement. Thus,
                          > > EK membership is ego, as well as,
                          > > fear driven.}
                          > >
                          > > Prometheus
                          >
                        • prometheus_973
                          Hello Diana and All, Klemp cares about the more youthful image he s projecting in the PR brochures and his official pic displayed in EK Centers and at Intros
                          Message 12 of 21 , Nov 7, 2011
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hello Diana and All,
                            Klemp cares about
                            the more youthful
                            image he's projecting
                            in the PR brochures
                            and his official pic
                            displayed in EK Centers
                            and at Intros because
                            it appeals to younger
                            people more than his
                            old real life image does!

                            Thus, more suckers
                            are attracted to the
                            bait and switch packaging
                            versus the reality which
                            would repel them. LOL!

                            At a Seminar (after
                            seeing Klemp) they
                            simply decide to stay
                            until he gets done talking.
                            Klemp was never too
                            photogenic anyway but
                            now he's really getting
                            pathetic looking... as
                            a Mahanta/God!

                            Really, how can Eckists
                            believe in or talk about
                            the ECK Masters like
                            Rebazar, who are
                            supposedly over 500
                            years old and still maintain
                            a physical body, when
                            Klemp claims to be the
                            greatest and most spiritually
                            advanced Mahanta ever!
                            Yet, he's wasting away!
                            It doesn't make sense if
                            it was true! The truth is
                            there are No ECK Masters
                            and Klemp is a phony!

                            Pretend can be fun and
                            the imagination can make
                            the mundane magical,
                            it's an escape, and it can
                            be used (as lies) to explain
                            things in mythological and
                            unscientific terms because
                            science can't explain it
                            away with concrete analysis
                            and proven facts. Besides,
                            would most people listen?
                            Therefore, the ECK Masters
                            are as imagined as the
                            characters in Harry Potter,
                            or the Lord of the Rings,
                            et al.

                            Thus, if Eckankar was for
                            real Klemp wouldn't be
                            aging and rapidly! He'd
                            look like Rebazar or one
                            of the other portraits of
                            those fake ECK Masters.

                            Funny that the artist who
                            did the latest ECK Master
                            portraits made them look
                            younger than Klemp's real-
                            time current photo (not the
                            embellished portrait)! Just
                            go the eckankar.org and
                            see for yourself! It's comical!

                            Prometheus


                            dianastanley wrote:
                            I don't understand why
                            he cares what he looks
                            like he never hardly ever
                            makes public appearences.
                            Maybe he has a double
                            to do all public pr work!!!
                            Diana




                            <prometheus wrote:
                            >
                            > Hello Diana and All,
                            > At one time Klemp tried
                            > contact lens but eventually
                            > switched back to glasses.
                            > I'm told he received some
                            > criticism, from H.I.s via
                            > chelas, that contacts were
                            > more of a vanity issue than
                            > a sight/vision issue. ECKists
                            > can't have their mealy looking
                            > Mahanta project a fraudulent
                            > appearance because that
                            > would indicate other frauds
                            > might be taking place and
                            > perpetuated. LOL!
                            >
                            > However, I've also read that
                            > contacts can offer people
                            > better vision than glasses,
                            > but maybe that was just
                            > a slanted PR story to sell
                            > a product like Eckankar
                            > does.
                            >
                            > I'm assuming that this is
                            > why Klemp won't dye his
                            > hair or get hair plugs. I
                            > wonder what else Klemp
                            > does, or doesn't do, that
                            > is natural? Boxers, briefs,
                            > or commando?
                            >
                            > Prometheus
                            >
                            > dianastanley wrote:
                            > maybe he should try botox
                            > or a face lift. It would be
                            > a miricale that he got his
                            > youth back!
                            > Diana
                            >
                            >
                            > <prometheus wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Hello All,
                            > > This is simply more proof
                            > > of Eckankar's deceptions.
                            > >
                            > > It's come to my attention
                            > > that Klemp is still using
                            > > a 10-15 old photo as his
                            > > "Official Photo" which is
                            > > to be displayed at ECK
                            > > functions and EK Centers.
                            > >
                            > > WHY? Really, why is this
                            > > being done?
                            > >
                            > > Isn't Klemp comfortable
                            > > with his aging?
                            > >
                            > > On the front page of the
                            > > September, 2011 "The
                            > > Mystic World of ECKankar"
                            > > is a current photo of Klemp.
                            > >
                            > > However, if one looks at
                            > > the back page where "The
                            > > Wisdom Notes" are given
                            > > there is the older "Official
                            > > Photo" depicting a younger
                            > > looking Klemp.
                            > >
                            > > Is the real and present day
                            > > photo depicting the Outer
                            > > LEM while the "Official (past)
                            > > Photo" depicting the Inner
                            > > Master/Mahanta? Is that
                            > > Klemp's rationale for this
                            > > subliminal trickery?
                            > >
                            > > Really, I don't think that this
                            > > issue has ever been addressed
                            > > since ECKists aren't permitted
                            > > to ask such questions without
                            > > risking reprisals by their RESAs
                            > > or via the ESC (Klemp).
                            > >
                            > > But, in Eckankar, what is reality?
                            > > Is it anything one wants to deny
                            > > and imagine differently as you
                            > > like it?
                            > >
                            > > This photo switch is simply
                            > > another trick that Klemp uses
                            > > to cloud the minds and reasoning
                            > > abilities of his followers so they
                            > > can feel good about their religion
                            > > of pretend Masters, Initiations,
                            > > and Planes of Consciousness.
                            > >
                            > > This denial of the obvious is
                            > > why ECKists are comfortable
                            > > and passive sheep and/or are
                            > > chickens in the EK hen house.
                            > > However, on the other hand,
                            > > ECKists are stressed out as
                            > > well.
                            > >
                            > > ECKists must be Vahanas/
                            > > Missionary's and give Service
                            > > to Klemp (and Lip Service to
                            > > the public) in order to advance
                            > > and/or to maintain their status
                            > > as official spokespersons.
                            > >
                            > > The Lip Service is when they
                            > > give the "official" presentations
                            > > which omit facts with the guise
                            > > of being "too much spiritual
                            > > food" for the seeker to handle.
                            > >
                            > > Come on, just tell them how
                            > > long it will probably take them
                            > > to become free of Karma or
                            > > reach the 5th initiation! And,
                            > > how many more years (and
                            > > what's required) it should
                            > > take them to reach the 7th
                            > > initiation. Then tell them
                            > > how long it will be for them
                            > > to reach the 8th initiation...
                            > > maybe the RESA would know
                            > > that answer. LOL!
                            > >
                            > > Prometheus
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > From Dec, 2009:
                            > > Isn't it strange that a "spiritual
                            > > master" (a Mahanta) would still
                            > > be using an outdated photo.
                            > > This shows that Klemp is attached
                            > > to KAL's lower plane influences.
                            > > This is more proof that HK has
                            > > fallen from SUGMAD's Grace (not
                            > > that he ever had it). Still, for some
                            > > ECKists Klemp's youthful appearance
                            > > attachment must be confusing.
                            > > Others simply turn a Blind Eye
                            > > to it all... they like the public
                            > > seeing the younger looking photo.
                            > > It's less embarrassing than the
                            > > real thing. H.I.s, especially, live
                            > > in a state of denial because it's
                            > > comfortable and convenient
                            > > and EK Membership has become
                            > > habitual and ego driven.
                            > >
                            > > {Note: Annual EK Membership
                            > > is actually required in order to
                            > > receive and keep initiations. The
                            > > reenrolling of one's membership
                            > > must become habitual or risk
                            > > losing the fake connection with
                            > > the Inner via the outer monetary
                            > > membership requirement. Thus,
                            > > EK membership is ego, as well as,
                            > > fear driven.}
                            > >
                            > > Prometheus
                          • Diana Stanley
                            Eckankar is being reduced to sillyness. People who are trully seeking spiritual enlightenment will begin to leave. Those that are comfortable with authority
                            Message 13 of 21 , Nov 9, 2011
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Eckankar is being reduced to sillyness. People who are trully seeking spiritual enlightenment will begin to leave. Those that are comfortable with authority and rules and regulations will hang on.
                              Much like the old churches some people feel safe if they are told how to get to heven and avoid hell.
                              I imagin Harold is trying to incorporate the Eck teachings with christian beliefs as that is Harolds background.
                              I am afraid it is a marrage that is doomed to failure. Hopefully sooner than later.
                              Diana

                              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hello Diana and All,
                              > Klemp cares about
                              > the more youthful
                              > image he's projecting
                              > in the PR brochures
                              > and his official pic
                              > displayed in EK Centers
                              > and at Intros because
                              > it appeals to younger
                              > people more than his
                              > old real life image does!
                              >
                              > Thus, more suckers
                              > are attracted to the
                              > bait and switch packaging
                              > versus the reality which
                              > would repel them. LOL!
                              >
                              > At a Seminar (after
                              > seeing Klemp) they
                              > simply decide to stay
                              > until he gets done talking.
                              > Klemp was never too
                              > photogenic anyway but
                              > now he's really getting
                              > pathetic looking... as
                              > a Mahanta/God!
                              >
                              > Really, how can Eckists
                              > believe in or talk about
                              > the ECK Masters like
                              > Rebazar, who are
                              > supposedly over 500
                              > years old and still maintain
                              > a physical body, when
                              > Klemp claims to be the
                              > greatest and most spiritually
                              > advanced Mahanta ever!
                              > Yet, he's wasting away!
                              > It doesn't make sense if
                              > it was true! The truth is
                              > there are No ECK Masters
                              > and Klemp is a phony!
                              >
                              > Pretend can be fun and
                              > the imagination can make
                              > the mundane magical,
                              > it's an escape, and it can
                              > be used (as lies) to explain
                              > things in mythological and
                              > unscientific terms because
                              > science can't explain it
                              > away with concrete analysis
                              > and proven facts. Besides,
                              > would most people listen?
                              > Therefore, the ECK Masters
                              > are as imagined as the
                              > characters in Harry Potter,
                              > or the Lord of the Rings,
                              > et al.
                              >
                              > Thus, if Eckankar was for
                              > real Klemp wouldn't be
                              > aging and rapidly! He'd
                              > look like Rebazar or one
                              > of the other portraits of
                              > those fake ECK Masters.
                              >
                              > Funny that the artist who
                              > did the latest ECK Master
                              > portraits made them look
                              > younger than Klemp's real-
                              > time current photo (not the
                              > embellished portrait)! Just
                              > go the eckankar.org and
                              > see for yourself! It's comical!
                              >
                              > Prometheus
                              >
                              >
                              > dianastanley wrote:
                              > I don't understand why
                              > he cares what he looks
                              > like he never hardly ever
                              > makes public appearences.
                              > Maybe he has a double
                              > to do all public pr work!!!
                              > Diana
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > <prometheus wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Hello Diana and All,
                              > > At one time Klemp tried
                              > > contact lens but eventually
                              > > switched back to glasses.
                              > > I'm told he received some
                              > > criticism, from H.I.s via
                              > > chelas, that contacts were
                              > > more of a vanity issue than
                              > > a sight/vision issue. ECKists
                              > > can't have their mealy looking
                              > > Mahanta project a fraudulent
                              > > appearance because that
                              > > would indicate other frauds
                              > > might be taking place and
                              > > perpetuated. LOL!
                              > >
                              > > However, I've also read that
                              > > contacts can offer people
                              > > better vision than glasses,
                              > > but maybe that was just
                              > > a slanted PR story to sell
                              > > a product like Eckankar
                              > > does.
                              > >
                              > > I'm assuming that this is
                              > > why Klemp won't dye his
                              > > hair or get hair plugs. I
                              > > wonder what else Klemp
                              > > does, or doesn't do, that
                              > > is natural? Boxers, briefs,
                              > > or commando?
                              > >
                              > > Prometheus
                              > >
                              > > dianastanley wrote:
                              > > maybe he should try botox
                              > > or a face lift. It would be
                              > > a miricale that he got his
                              > > youth back!
                              > > Diana
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > <prometheus wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > Hello All,
                              > > > This is simply more proof
                              > > > of Eckankar's deceptions.
                              > > >
                              > > > It's come to my attention
                              > > > that Klemp is still using
                              > > > a 10-15 old photo as his
                              > > > "Official Photo" which is
                              > > > to be displayed at ECK
                              > > > functions and EK Centers.
                              > > >
                              > > > WHY? Really, why is this
                              > > > being done?
                              > > >
                              > > > Isn't Klemp comfortable
                              > > > with his aging?
                              > > >
                              > > > On the front page of the
                              > > > September, 2011 "The
                              > > > Mystic World of ECKankar"
                              > > > is a current photo of Klemp.
                              > > >
                              > > > However, if one looks at
                              > > > the back page where "The
                              > > > Wisdom Notes" are given
                              > > > there is the older "Official
                              > > > Photo" depicting a younger
                              > > > looking Klemp.
                              > > >
                              > > > Is the real and present day
                              > > > photo depicting the Outer
                              > > > LEM while the "Official (past)
                              > > > Photo" depicting the Inner
                              > > > Master/Mahanta? Is that
                              > > > Klemp's rationale for this
                              > > > subliminal trickery?
                              > > >
                              > > > Really, I don't think that this
                              > > > issue has ever been addressed
                              > > > since ECKists aren't permitted
                              > > > to ask such questions without
                              > > > risking reprisals by their RESAs
                              > > > or via the ESC (Klemp).
                              > > >
                              > > > But, in Eckankar, what is reality?
                              > > > Is it anything one wants to deny
                              > > > and imagine differently as you
                              > > > like it?
                              > > >
                              > > > This photo switch is simply
                              > > > another trick that Klemp uses
                              > > > to cloud the minds and reasoning
                              > > > abilities of his followers so they
                              > > > can feel good about their religion
                              > > > of pretend Masters, Initiations,
                              > > > and Planes of Consciousness.
                              > > >
                              > > > This denial of the obvious is
                              > > > why ECKists are comfortable
                              > > > and passive sheep and/or are
                              > > > chickens in the EK hen house.
                              > > > However, on the other hand,
                              > > > ECKists are stressed out as
                              > > > well.
                              > > >
                              > > > ECKists must be Vahanas/
                              > > > Missionary's and give Service
                              > > > to Klemp (and Lip Service to
                              > > > the public) in order to advance
                              > > > and/or to maintain their status
                              > > > as official spokespersons.
                              > > >
                              > > > The Lip Service is when they
                              > > > give the "official" presentations
                              > > > which omit facts with the guise
                              > > > of being "too much spiritual
                              > > > food" for the seeker to handle.
                              > > >
                              > > > Come on, just tell them how
                              > > > long it will probably take them
                              > > > to become free of Karma or
                              > > > reach the 5th initiation! And,
                              > > > how many more years (and
                              > > > what's required) it should
                              > > > take them to reach the 7th
                              > > > initiation. Then tell them
                              > > > how long it will be for them
                              > > > to reach the 8th initiation...
                              > > > maybe the RESA would know
                              > > > that answer. LOL!
                              > > >
                              > > > Prometheus
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > From Dec, 2009:
                              > > > Isn't it strange that a "spiritual
                              > > > master" (a Mahanta) would still
                              > > > be using an outdated photo.
                              > > > This shows that Klemp is attached
                              > > > to KAL's lower plane influences.
                              > > > This is more proof that HK has
                              > > > fallen from SUGMAD's Grace (not
                              > > > that he ever had it). Still, for some
                              > > > ECKists Klemp's youthful appearance
                              > > > attachment must be confusing.
                              > > > Others simply turn a Blind Eye
                              > > > to it all... they like the public
                              > > > seeing the younger looking photo.
                              > > > It's less embarrassing than the
                              > > > real thing. H.I.s, especially, live
                              > > > in a state of denial because it's
                              > > > comfortable and convenient
                              > > > and EK Membership has become
                              > > > habitual and ego driven.
                              > > >
                              > > > {Note: Annual EK Membership
                              > > > is actually required in order to
                              > > > receive and keep initiations. The
                              > > > reenrolling of one's membership
                              > > > must become habitual or risk
                              > > > losing the fake connection with
                              > > > the Inner via the outer monetary
                              > > > membership requirement. Thus,
                              > > > EK membership is ego, as well as,
                              > > > fear driven.}
                              > > >
                              > > > Prometheus
                              >
                            • prometheus_973
                              Hello Diana and All, Yes, the silliness began with Twitchell. That s why Gail and Patti were always giggling about good old fuddy-duddy Paul and his conman
                              Message 14 of 21 , Nov 9, 2011
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Hello Diana and All,
                                Yes, the silliness began
                                with Twitchell. That's
                                why Gail and Patti were
                                always giggling about
                                good old fuddy-duddy
                                Paul and his conman
                                antics, some, to hide
                                his age [the joke was
                                on them because Paul
                                was older than they
                                thought]. Other embellishments
                                were used to promote
                                himself... and yet this
                                doesn't seem to be a
                                problem for longtime
                                H.I.s. When I found out
                                about the foundation
                                of the EK teachings and
                                the liar Twitchell I just
                                couldn't remain a follower.
                                Truth means too much
                                to me. Ask yourself,
                                "What is Truth?"

                                Klemp is as much the liar
                                as Twitchell. He rationalizes
                                it away by thinking that people
                                need something to believe
                                in and Eckankar gives them
                                something that is, at least,
                                less physically harmful to
                                the world than many other
                                religions. Of course, that's
                                only because Eckankar doesn't
                                have the members, money,
                                and power that other religions
                                have. Other than that it's
                                a fraud and a waste of time.
                                It creates delusional thinking
                                and this inhibits clarity of
                                mind and true, individual,
                                "spiritual" progress.

                                Prometheus



                                "Diana Stanley" wrote:
                                Eckankar is being reduced
                                to sillyness. People who
                                are trully seeking spiritual
                                enlightenment will begin
                                to leave. Those that are
                                comfortable with authority
                                and rules and regulations
                                will hang on.

                                Much like the old churches
                                some people feel safe if
                                they are told how to get
                                to heven and avoid hell.
                                I imagin Harold is trying
                                to incorporate the Eck
                                teachings with christian
                                beliefs as that is Harolds
                                background.

                                I am afraid it is a marrage
                                that is doomed to failure.
                                Hopefully sooner than later.
                                Diana


                                <prometheus wrote:
                                >
                                > Hello Diana and All,
                                > Klemp cares about
                                > the more youthful
                                > image he's projecting
                                > in the PR brochures
                                > and his official pic
                                > displayed in EK Centers
                                > and at Intros because
                                > it appeals to younger
                                > people more than his
                                > old real life image does!
                                >
                                > Thus, more suckers
                                > are attracted to the
                                > bait and switch packaging
                                > versus the reality which
                                > would repel them. LOL!
                                >
                                > At a Seminar (after
                                > seeing Klemp) they
                                > simply decide to stay
                                > until he gets done talking.
                                > Klemp was never too
                                > photogenic anyway but
                                > now he's really getting
                                > pathetic looking... as
                                > a Mahanta/God!
                                >
                                > Really, how can Eckists
                                > believe in or talk about
                                > the ECK Masters like
                                > Rebazar, who are
                                > supposedly over 500
                                > years old and still maintain
                                > a physical body, when
                                > Klemp claims to be the
                                > greatest and most spiritually
                                > advanced Mahanta ever!
                                > Yet, he's wasting away!
                                > It doesn't make sense if
                                > it was true! The truth is
                                > there are No ECK Masters
                                > and Klemp is a phony!
                                >
                                > Pretend can be fun and
                                > the imagination can make
                                > the mundane magical,
                                > it's an escape, and it can
                                > be used (as lies) to explain
                                > things in mythological and
                                > unscientific terms because
                                > science can't explain it
                                > away with concrete analysis
                                > and proven facts. Besides,
                                > would most people listen?
                                > Therefore, the ECK Masters
                                > are as imagined as the
                                > characters in Harry Potter,
                                > or the Lord of the Rings,
                                > et al.
                                >
                                > Thus, if Eckankar was for
                                > real Klemp wouldn't be
                                > aging and rapidly! He'd
                                > look like Rebazar or one
                                > of the other portraits of
                                > those fake ECK Masters.
                                >
                                > Funny that the artist who
                                > did the latest ECK Master
                                > portraits made them look
                                > younger than Klemp's real-
                                > time current photo (not the
                                > embellished portrait)! Just
                                > go the eckankar.org and
                                > see for yourself! It's comical!
                                >
                                > Prometheus
                                >
                                >
                                > dianastanley wrote:
                                > I don't understand why
                                > he cares what he looks
                                > like he never hardly ever
                                > makes public appearences.
                                > Maybe he has a double
                                > to do all public pr work!!!
                                > Diana
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > <prometheus wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Hello Diana and All,
                                > > At one time Klemp tried
                                > > contact lens but eventually
                                > > switched back to glasses.
                                > > I'm told he received some
                                > > criticism, from H.I.s via
                                > > chelas, that contacts were
                                > > more of a vanity issue than
                                > > a sight/vision issue. ECKists
                                > > can't have their mealy looking
                                > > Mahanta project a fraudulent
                                > > appearance because that
                                > > would indicate other frauds
                                > > might be taking place and
                                > > perpetuated. LOL!
                                > >
                                > > However, I've also read that
                                > > contacts can offer people
                                > > better vision than glasses,
                                > > but maybe that was just
                                > > a slanted PR story to sell
                                > > a product like Eckankar
                                > > does.
                                > >
                                > > I'm assuming that this is
                                > > why Klemp won't dye his
                                > > hair or get hair plugs. I
                                > > wonder what else Klemp
                                > > does, or doesn't do, that
                                > > is natural? Boxers, briefs,
                                > > or commando?
                                > >
                                > > Prometheus
                                > >
                                > > dianastanley wrote:
                                > > maybe he should try botox
                                > > or a face lift. It would be
                                > > a miricale that he got his
                                > > youth back!
                                > > Diana
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > <prometheus wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > Hello All,
                                > > > This is simply more proof
                                > > > of Eckankar's deceptions.
                                > > >
                                > > > It's come to my attention
                                > > > that Klemp is still using
                                > > > a 10-15 old photo as his
                                > > > "Official Photo" which is
                                > > > to be displayed at ECK
                                > > > functions and EK Centers.
                                > > >
                                > > > WHY? Really, why is this
                                > > > being done?
                                > > >
                                > > > Isn't Klemp comfortable
                                > > > with his aging?
                                > > >
                                > > > On the front page of the
                                > > > September, 2011 "The
                                > > > Mystic World of ECKankar"
                                > > > is a current photo of Klemp.
                                > > >
                                > > > However, if one looks at
                                > > > the back page where "The
                                > > > Wisdom Notes" are given
                                > > > there is the older "Official
                                > > > Photo" depicting a younger
                                > > > looking Klemp.
                                > > >
                                > > > Is the real and present day
                                > > > photo depicting the Outer
                                > > > LEM while the "Official (past)
                                > > > Photo" depicting the Inner
                                > > > Master/Mahanta? Is that
                                > > > Klemp's rationale for this
                                > > > subliminal trickery?
                                > > >
                                > > > Really, I don't think that this
                                > > > issue has ever been addressed
                                > > > since ECKists aren't permitted
                                > > > to ask such questions without
                                > > > risking reprisals by their RESAs
                                > > > or via the ESC (Klemp).
                                > > >
                                > > > But, in Eckankar, what is reality?
                                > > > Is it anything one wants to deny
                                > > > and imagine differently as you
                                > > > like it?
                                > > >
                                > > > This photo switch is simply
                                > > > another trick that Klemp uses
                                > > > to cloud the minds and reasoning
                                > > > abilities of his followers so they
                                > > > can feel good about their religion
                                > > > of pretend Masters, Initiations,
                                > > > and Planes of Consciousness.
                                > > >
                                > > > This denial of the obvious is
                                > > > why ECKists are comfortable
                                > > > and passive sheep and/or are
                                > > > chickens in the EK hen house.
                                > > > However, on the other hand,
                                > > > ECKists are stressed out as
                                > > > well.
                                > > >
                                > > > ECKists must be Vahanas/
                                > > > Missionary's and give Service
                                > > > to Klemp (and Lip Service to
                                > > > the public) in order to advance
                                > > > and/or to maintain their status
                                > > > as official spokespersons.
                                > > >
                                > > > The Lip Service is when they
                                > > > give the "official" presentations
                                > > > which omit facts with the guise
                                > > > of being "too much spiritual
                                > > > food" for the seeker to handle.
                                > > >
                                > > > Come on, just tell them how
                                > > > long it will probably take them
                                > > > to become free of Karma or
                                > > > reach the 5th initiation! And,
                                > > > how many more years (and
                                > > > what's required) it should
                                > > > take them to reach the 7th
                                > > > initiation. Then tell them
                                > > > how long it will be for them
                                > > > to reach the 8th initiation...
                                > > > maybe the RESA would know
                                > > > that answer. LOL!
                                > > >
                                > > > Prometheus
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > From Dec, 2009:
                                > > > Isn't it strange that a "spiritual
                                > > > master" (a Mahanta) would still
                                > > > be using an outdated photo.
                                > > > This shows that Klemp is attached
                                > > > to KAL's lower plane influences.
                                > > > This is more proof that HK has
                                > > > fallen from SUGMAD's Grace (not
                                > > > that he ever had it). Still, for some
                                > > > ECKists Klemp's youthful appearance
                                > > > attachment must be confusing.
                                > > > Others simply turn a Blind Eye
                                > > > to it all... they like the public
                                > > > seeing the younger looking photo.
                                > > > It's less embarrassing than the
                                > > > real thing. H.I.s, especially, live
                                > > > in a state of denial because it's
                                > > > comfortable and convenient
                                > > > and EK Membership has become
                                > > > habitual and ego driven.
                                > > >
                                > > > {Note: Annual EK Membership
                                > > > is actually required in order to
                                > > > receive and keep initiations. The
                                > > > reenrolling of one's membership
                                > > > must become habitual or risk
                                > > > losing the fake connection with
                                > > > the Inner via the outer monetary
                                > > > membership requirement. Thus,
                                > > > EK membership is ego, as well as,
                                > > > fear driven.}
                                > > >
                                > > > Prometheus
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