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Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp's Vanity - His Wisdom Notes and EK Brochure Photo

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  • etznab@aol.com
    Paradoxical as it may seem, my point in bringing out all of this has been to strengthen your faith in the Mahanta—but not at the expense of making a god out
    Message 1 of 21 , Dec 19, 2009
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      "Paradoxical as it may seem, my point in bringing
      out all of this has been to strengthen your faith in the
      Mahanta—but not at the expense of making a god
      out of the Mahanta's vehicle, which is the Living ECK
      Master. It's a price we cannot afford to pay. As soon
      as we set someone above us, in potential or in fact,
      we have committed a crime against ourselves: We
      have limited the opportunity for our own unfoldment."

      [Based on: Article (The Real Foundation), by Harold Klemp

      http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/writings.html#ideal

      "We are making an effort to construct a physical history
      of ECKANKAR, looking for actual physical records to
      verify the existence of some of the ECK Masters in a way
      that historians of the future will be able to accept; some-
      thing beyond just the words of one of the Living ECK
      Masters of the past. It will be vital for the survival of
      ECKANKAR as a religious teaching in the future."

      Based on: Harold Klemp, The Secret Teachings, p. 246

      The living Eck Master is a "vehicle" for "Mahanta"?

      We are looking for something "[....] beyond just the
      words of one of the Living ECK Masters of the past"?

      ******************************************************************

      I don't think it wrong for one to state opinions, perspectives,
      ask questions and / or seek to discuss the topic of "Living
      Masters" as vehicles for what has been called "Mahanta".
      Even if it means not making God(s) out of the "vehicles".

      Etznab






      -----Original Message-----
      From: etznab@...
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sat, Dec 19, 2009 8:50 am
      Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp's Vanity - His
      Wisdom Notes and EK Brochure Photo

       

      Those were some good points, Prometheus. The topic
      of "mahanta" seems (IMO) central to the teachings of
      Eckankar. However, I'm suspicious about why people
      on the outer would seek to identify with what is surely
      an inner reality living with each & every person / being.

      There are a couple excerpts containing the word
      "mahanta" I wanted to share in order to make a
      point, or two, about what it seems to be. To me.
      What is my perspective / opinion, at least.

      ************************************************************

      Christ Consciousness and the Mahanta Consciousness

      "There is a saying in the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad that
      behind all faces and all people is the Mahanta. [....]"

      http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisSearch.html

      ************************************************************

      Working with Higher Consciousness

      "Many people don't quite understand what it means to
      work with the Mahanta Consciousness. They think merely
      opening up in their consciousness makes them a pure
      channel for the ECK at the highest level of the Mahanta
      Consciousness. If this were true, a Second Initiate of pure
      heart could become the Mahanta, and the outer initiations
      wouldn't count.

      "To fully have the Mahanta Consciousness means to reach
      a certain inner as well as outer initiation. In ECK there is
      always the balance between the inner and the outer. Until we
      have this balance, we have yet to become a Co-worker with
      God. [....]"

      http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisSearch.html

      ************************************************************

      The 2nd paragraph in the Working with Higher Consciousness
      quote is one I want to share a perspective on. First sentence,
      that is.

      "To fully have the Mahanta Consciousness means to reach a
      certain inner as well as outer initiation."

      If the "Mahanta" is the "Inner Master" then why is an outer in-
      iation required to fully have Mahanta Consciousness? In that
      paragraph I quoted, Harold talked about balancing of inner &
      outer. Does this mean "Mahanta" / "Mahanta Consciousness
      has inner and outer elements? Or, the inner awareness of a
      person need be balanced with the outer? In this case, "inner"
      being connected with "mahanta" / "mahanta consciousness"?

      "[....] In ECK there is always the balance between the inner and
      the outer. Until we have this balance, we have yet to become a
      Co-worker with God."

      Maybe this is just another way of saying (If I can quote some
      Metallica lyrics): "Obey your Master! Master!"

      My perspective is that it looks confusing to speak about higher
      awareness / consciousness, an Inner and Outer Master, etc. &
      introduce those ideas from the source of an outer authority. As
      from a form of organized religion with "imperfect" outer writings.

      Those three sections of quotes were from 1985. And yet, there
      was a book (Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, Book One) written back in
      early 1970's attempting to explain the "Mahanta". In my opinion
      the "outer" was NOT the same as the "inner". Plain and simple.
      I believe there was a form of "trinity" spelled out. One of which
      was "Eternal Mahanta".

      So, basically, I think an idea of this "ever-present, higher inner
      awareness" embodied in a human form was inevitable in human
      history. Simply because whoever talked about it would naturally
      be associated with what they were talking about. Otherwise,
      how would they know (what they were talking about)? Authority
      about higher awareness and states of consciousness took on a
      outer form. IMO. And one that differed / differs according to the
      particular religion, dogma, history, etc.

      Does anybody see the potential danger with a trusting in outer
      authority blindly? Accepting everything literally? Perhaps this
      is something that needs to be balanced by the "inner" higher
      awareness / consciousness? Because in this case it makes
      sense to me it's not an outer authority living inside my head,
      not some human being person established inside of myself
      which is the Inner Master and highest state of consciousness
      existing always. That is something on another level altogether
      that doesn't become extracted from inner to the outer where it
      chooses to live in one single human body at a time telling all
      other human bodies that no, it is not there on the outer, no, it
      is on the inner where you need to look. It is the inner where
      the "mahanta" truly resides. And in the same breath implying
      that the "mahanta" is the same as one human being living in
      a physical body. One human being with outer authority to de-
      termine the level of initiation (outer at least) for practically all
      other people in the entire universe!

      It's confusing, IMO. Balancing this "inner" and "outer" thing
      when the two are perceived to be the same, when truly they
      are not the same. In my opinion.

      Is the inner "individual highest consciousness" present with
      all beings going to balance the outer? Or, Is the outer - and in
      the form of other beings independent from the individual - going
      to "balance" (perhaps seek to control) the inner? It might just
      be that words are not sufficient to bring clarity on this topic.
      Or, it might be that outer authority is not sufficient to identify
      itself with a "inner" or "highest state of consciousness" within
      every single individual / being. I suspect.

      Besides, some of the authority about what is "mahanta" can
      be found in books by other authors. Even places where that
      was not the original term in some teachings. Mahatma may
      have been in its place. I'm referring to the writings of Julian J.
      and where he spells out the characteristics of a living master,
      how you can tell one, what is one, etc. etc.

      Some of Johnson's quotes appear in the Eckankar writings,
      but (some of them) changed in some ways. In my opinion. I
      see this as "imperfect outer teachings" and not what came
      from some "being on the inner".

      Etznab

      -----Original Message-----
      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Fri, Dec 18, 2009 6:33 pm
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp's Vanity - His Wisdom
      Notes and EK Brochure Photo

       
      The LEM/Mahanta position represents
      an ideal and a goal (for men) to strive
      for in this lifetime. Women will have to
      come back as men (in future lifetimes)
      in order to have a shot at the title. The
      same goes for "Pope" and numerous
      other religious titles. This is the way
      religion works on planet earth.

      People have to elevate one of their own
      in order to feel close to God and have
      him speak for them. Plus, they need
      one voice to speak back to them and
      to relay what God has said. It's less
      confusing that way. Religion is used
      to control the masses so that chaos
      doesn't reign.

      Manmade laws aren't enough, however.
      Mankind needs answers to explain Why
      and How it all began. Of course these
      are what each Soul needs to discover
      on their own. it's private and subjective.
      Actually, this is the way it used to be
      in Eckankar. ECKists weren't to share
      an inner meeting with the Master or
      things of this nature. You didn't want
      to make others feel bad if they hadn't
      had any inner experiences. Of course
      sometimes people lied like Twitchell
      and made things up or embellished
      the stories too. Some people just need
      attention. It got especially bad if a
      new member had an elaborate dream
      experience when the H.I.s hadn't!

      Sometimes religion can give one a jump
      start, (in the beginning), and from there
      a person can begin their own unique Journey
      with the Divine.

      But, the politicians and religionists
      don't want these people to become
      free thinkers. That would lead to Truth
      and the lies might be revealed to others.
      This would be bad for those in power.
      They don't want people to wake-up
      and smell the coffee. Thus, Klemp is
      against drinking coffee! Let's face it...
      the more stupid and fearful people are
      the easier it is to control them.

      Thus, the educational system, especially
      in the U.U., is deprived of qualified
      teachers and text books that are updated
      and revised to reveal a more complete
      and objective view of history. However,
      proficiency tests are taught so that schools
      receive their funding, thus, a real education
      is postponed.

      Those children that are "home schooled"
      due to religious beliefs end up being even
      more out-of-touch with society and much
      less educated.

      This (below) site has comments that
      aren't too far away from fanatical EK
      beliefs and show the hatred, fear, and
      stupidity that religions have propagated
      over time. Klemp's recent comments in
      "Youth Ask a Modern Prophet about Life,
      Love and God" show how religion is used
      to control and stifle individualized behaviour.

      http://www.fstdt.com/Top100.aspx?archive=1

      Prometheus

      etznab wrote:

      I remember reading recently in the Shariyat-
      Ki-Sugmad about "Mahanta".

      The idea of something existing always and
      since the beginning of time was connected
      to the term (see "Eternal Mahanta").

      In my opinion, the idea of something of this
      nature accords more with a higher state of
      consciousness, or what some popularly call
      a "higher self" available to all people & with
      them at all times whether they realize all of
      it, or not, in a single physical lifetime.

      So I naturally asked myself, What has this
      "Mahanta" have to do with being represented
      by any one person above all others? And if a
      living person dies, then what happens to that
      "Eternal Mahanta"? Surely it doesn't die with
      them. I thought. Because that wouldn't be a
      thing always existing. A thing always with a
      person. Like consciousness.

      What I found was that "mahanta", defined by
      Paul Twitchell and Eckankar, was associated
      with a state of consciousness. Therefore, the
      Paul Twitchell / Eckankar definition: Mahanta
      Consciousness.

      In most - if not all - paths similar to illustrated
      Eckankar teachings about a "Living Master" I
      find the emphasis of one particular individual &
      "representation" of God by them. And though
      it might be said "mahanta" gives the initiation,
      it appears to be up to a single individual - ulti-
      mately - at the organization level at least, and
      feedback from other "Higher Initiates" about a
      person and whether they qualify for initiation.

      I think most people can identify with a form of
      "higher self" in the form of consciousness in a
      potential form always existing - whether all of
      it be realized by a single person on Earth at a
      given time, or in a given lifetime.

      What happened in 1971 after Paul Twitchell
      died and before the next Living Master was
      appointed? What happened to "Mahanta Con-
      sciousness"? I don't think anything happened
      to it since it existed since the beginning and
      is existing always. However, some might say
      it defaulted to the "Torch Bearer" Rebazar T.
      I asked myself: Why need it have to go to a
      single person? Is not "higher consciousness",
      even the "highest" present with "God" for all
      time? Why does something like this have to
      be held by a "single individual"? Especially a
      person in the physical body? or other bodies,
      which are "limited" in relation to "God"?

      Does anybody here believe that something like
      "higher consciousness" exists in potential form
      and is available to all persons? I'm not talking
      about what religious dogma says. Eckankar in-
      cluded.

      I ask the former since I wonder if this is what
      "Eckankar" - and paths similar to it - were re-
      ferring to before the worship of Living Masters
      took over. Before the idea of "God in a single
      man" came into vogue. I mean, is it closer to
      reality that "higher consciousness" does not
      exist like a "property" belonging to a single
      person which all other people have to pay for,
      or rent, in order to partake?

      Then there is the "inner master" thing and an
      association of "mahanta" with that. Well, how
      can one person claim rights to it? I mean,
      what happens when that "one person" dies?
      When the physical "outer master" form dies?

      I think this "inner master" / "mahanta" thing
      is something that doesn't belong to a single
      individual and / or religion. I think what does
      belong to the latter is the "DEFINITION" of it.
      Something which hardly qualifies as unlimit-
      ed. IMO.

      All a religion and religious leaders can do is
      serve as "guides" (for better, or for worse),
      the same as anybody else, in my opinion. I
      seriously doubt they own truth to the extent
      of "renting" it, "selling" it when practically all
      religions and religious leaders are inherently
      limited when it comes to what a person has
      to (MUST) do / realize for them self.

      The popularity of religion in history sprang up
      (IMO) when people realized they could profit
      from offering what knowledge existed for the
      subjects of creation, life, death, the afterlife
      and heaven, etc. It did not matter so much if
      the "knowledge" was all true. Stories were a
      source of income, too. IMO. Even in some of
      the temples people employed inventions for
      the manifestation of apparent miracles. What
      they got in return were donations. Of course,
      they didn't tell people the real source of the
      miracles. Otherwise donations might become
      less.

      Etznab

      P.S. Anybody heard a good story lately? I
      might have a use for it :)

      Prometheus wrote:

      Isn't it strange that a "spiritual master"
      (a Mahanta) would still be using an
      outdated photo. This shows that Klemp
      is attached to KAL's lower plane influences.
      This is more proof that HK has fallen
      from SUGMAD's Grace (not that he ever
      had it). Still, for some ECKists Klemp's
      youthful appearance attachment must
      be confusing. Others simply turn a Blind
      Eye to it all... they like the public seeing
      the younger looking photo. It's less
      embarrassing than the real thing. H.I.s,
      especially, live in a state of denial because
      it's comfortable and convenient and
      EK Membership has become habitual
      and ego driven.

      Prometheus
    • etznab@aol.com
      . [....] Even in some of the temples people employed inventions for the manifestation of apparent miracles. What they got in return were donations. Of course,
      Message 2 of 21 , Dec 19, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        .
        "[....] Even in some of the temples people employed
        inventions for the manifestation of apparent miracles.
        What they got in return were donations. Of course,
        they didn't tell people the real source of the miracles.
        Otherwise donations might become less. [....]"

        Something from the description of the movie I saw
        where it documented various forms of deception that
        were employed to make miracles appear to happen
        using different forms of technology. This is where it
        appears that science was used to promote ideas of
        miracle-working gods existing behind the scenes. It
        was a perversion of not only religion, but of science
        as well. In my opinion:

        "Set firmly at the intersection of religion, science
        and commerce, the latest episode of ANCIENT
        DISCOVERIES travels to Rome and Greece to
        explore the commissioning, fabrication and pre-
        sentation of marvels meant to instill awe and draw
        hordes of deep-pocketed devotees. You will be
        amazed to learn how the greatest minds of the age
        were turned to the construction of what were little
        more than parlor tricks, albeit enormously sophist-
        icated and impressive ones."

        http://shop.history.com/detail.php?p=69989&ecid=SEO-0000046&pa=SEO-SSP

        I believe that program appeared on the History
        Channel some time back.

        Add to this the fact people have fabricated even
        ancient artifacts to frauduently propagate church
        history, have told stories that were mythological
        and / or symbolic - but accepted as literal truth,
        used teachings and quotes from the past which
        were fragmentary, little understood, and / or in a
        language nobody today completely understands,
        etc., and I see ample reason to be skeptical. To
        investigate, examine and even question "outer"
        forms of teachings - from science to religion.

        Today it appears ironic how religion and science
        are apparently divided, when many have argued
        it was not always the case. Col. James Church-
        ward speaking about "religion" in Lemuria gives
        an opinion that religion was described in terms
        a child could understand. Also, that religion and
        science were not two separate things in the very
        beginning. In fact, it is my belief, religion was
        described in "scientific" terms then because the
        people knew how both were connected.

        So, when science today is used to investigate,
        examine and, in some cases expose religious
        fraud I think it helps to remember how science
        was not always the record of ignorance about
        how things work that is in existence today.

        And, in my opinion, some people from earlier
        times may have been much more advanced,
        not less advanced (generally), compared with
        people living today. Looking at remains of the
        past through a modern (ignorant of the past)
        lens and portraying them as less civilized,
        less knowledgeable and less wise is (IMO) a
        major insult to history. I'm talking particularly
        about the ancient and far ancient past. Times
        when monuments were constructed and tech-
        nology existed that people today are still try-
        ing to fathom.

        Wasn't the far ancient past like some kind of
        "Golden Age" anyway? Compared to today?
        Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
        truth escape us? How might that have happ-
        ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
        in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
        was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
        untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
        fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
        ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
        blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
        as literally true.

        Etznab









        -----Original Message-----
        From: etznab@...
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sat, Dec 19, 2009 9:21 am
        Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp's Vanity - His
        Wisdom Notes and EK Brochure Photo

         

        "Paradoxical as it may seem, my point in bringing
        out all of this has been to strengthen your faith in the
        Mahanta—but not at the expense of making a god
        out of the Mahanta's vehicle, which is the Living ECK
        Master. It's a price we cannot afford to pay. As soon
        as we set someone above us, in potential or in fact,
        we have committed a crime against ourselves: We
        have limited the opportunity for our own unfoldment."

        [Based on: Article (The Real Foundation), by Harold Klemp

        http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/writings.html#ideal

        "We are making an effort to construct a physical history
        of ECKANKAR, looking for actual physical records to
        verify the existence of some of the ECK Masters in a way
        that historians of the future will be able to accept; some-
        thing beyond just the words of one of the Living ECK
        Masters of the past. It will be vital for the survival of
        ECKANKAR as a religious teaching in the future."

        Based on: Harold Klemp, The Secret Teachings, p. 246

        The living Eck Master is a "vehicle" for "Mahanta"?

        We are looking for something "[....] beyond just the
        words of one of the Living ECK Masters of the past"?

        ******************************************************************

        I don't think it wrong for one to state opinions, perspectives,
        ask questions and / or seek to discuss the topic of "Living
        Masters" as vehicles for what has been called "Mahanta".
        Even if it means not making God(s) out of the "vehicles".

        Etznab

        -----Original Message-----
        From: etznab@...
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sat, Dec 19, 2009 8:50 am
        Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp's Vanity - His
        Wisdom Notes and EK Brochure Photo

         

        Those were some good points, Prometheus. The topic
        of "mahanta" seems (IMO) central to the teachings of
        Eckankar. However, I'm suspicious about why people
        on the outer would seek to identify with what is surely
        an inner reality living with each & every person / being.

        There are a couple excerpts containing the word
        "mahanta" I wanted to share in order to make a
        point, or two, about what it seems to be. To me.
        What is my perspective / opinion, at least.

        ************************************************************

        Christ Consciousness and the Mahanta Consciousness

        "There is a saying in the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad that
        behind all faces and all people is the Mahanta. [....]"

        http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisSearch.html

        ************************************************************

        Working with Higher Consciousness

        "Many people don't quite understand what it means to
        work with the Mahanta Consciousness. They think merely
        opening up in their consciousness makes them a pure
        channel for the ECK at the highest level of the Mahanta
        Consciousness. If this were true, a Second Initiate of pure
        heart could become the Mahanta, and the outer initiations
        wouldn't count.

        "To fully have the Mahanta Consciousness means to reach
        a certain inner as well as outer initiation. In ECK there is
        always the balance between the inner and the outer. Until we
        have this balance, we have yet to become a Co-worker with
        God. [....]"

        http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisSearch.html

        ************************************************************

        The 2nd paragraph in the Working with Higher Consciousness
        quote is one I want to share a perspective on. First sentence,
        that is.

        "To fully have the Mahanta Consciousness means to reach a
        certain inner as well as outer initiation."

        If the "Mahanta" is the "Inner Master" then why is an outer in-
        iation required to fully have Mahanta Consciousness? In that
        paragraph I quoted, Harold talked about balancing of inner &
        outer. Does this mean "Mahanta" / "Mahanta Consciousness
        has inner and outer elements? Or, the inner awareness of a
        person need be balanced with the outer? In this case, "inner"
        being connected with "mahanta" / "mahanta consciousness"?

        "[....] In ECK there is always the balance between the inner and
        the outer. Until we have this balance, we have yet to become a
        Co-worker with God."

        Maybe this is just another way of saying (If I can quote some
        Metallica lyrics): "Obey your Master! Master!"

        My perspective is that it looks confusing to speak about higher
        awareness / consciousness, an Inner and Outer Master, etc. &
        introduce those ideas from the source of an outer authority. As
        from a form of organized religion with "imperfect" outer writings.

        Those three sections of quotes were from 1985. And yet, there
        was a book (Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, Book One) written back in
        early 1970's attempting to explain the "Mahanta". In my opinion
        the "outer" was NOT the same as the "inner". Plain and simple.
        I believe there was a form of "trinity" spelled out. One of which
        was "Eternal Mahanta".

        So, basically, I think an idea of this "ever-present, higher inner
        awareness" embodied in a human form was inevitable in human
        history. Simply because whoever talked about it would naturally
        be associated with what they were talking about. Otherwise,
        how would they know (what they were talking about)? Authority
        about higher awareness and states of consciousness took on a
        outer form. IMO. And one that differed / differs according to the
        particular religion, dogma, history, etc.

        Does anybody see the potential danger with a trusting in outer
        authority blindly? Accepting everything literally? Perhaps this
        is something that needs to be balanced by the "inner" higher
        awareness / consciousness? Because in this case it makes
        sense to me it's not an outer authority living inside my head,
        not some human being person established inside of myself
        which is the Inner Master and highest state of consciousness
        existing always. That is something on another level altogether
        that doesn't become extracted from inner to the outer where it
        chooses to live in one single human body at a time telling all
        other human bodies that no, it is not there on the outer, no, it
        is on the inner where you need to look. It is the inner where
        the "mahanta" truly resides. And in the same breath implying
        that the "mahanta" is the same as one human being living in
        a physical body. One human being with outer authority to de-
        termine the level of initiation (outer at least) for practically all
        other people in the entire universe!

        It's confusing, IMO. Balancing this "inner" and "outer" thing
        when the two are perceived to be the same, when truly they
        are not the same. In my opinion.

        Is the inner "individual highest consciousness" present with
        all beings going to balance the outer? Or, Is the outer - and in
        the form of other beings independent from the individual - going
        to "balance" (perhaps seek to control) the inner? It might just
        be that words are not sufficient to bring clarity on this topic.
        Or, it might be that outer authority is not sufficient to identify
        itself with a "inner" or "highest state of consciousness" within
        every single individual / being. I suspect.

        Besides, some of the authority about what is "mahanta" can
        be found in books by other authors. Even places where that
        was not the original term in some teachings. Mahatma may
        have been in its place. I'm referring to the writings of Julian J.
        and where he spells out the characteristics of a living master,
        how you can tell one, what is one, etc. etc.

        Some of Johnson's quotes appear in the Eckankar writings,
        but (some of them) changed in some ways. In my opinion. I
        see this as "imperfect outer teachings" and not what came
        from some "being on the inner".

        Etznab

        -----Original Message-----
        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Fri, Dec 18, 2009 6:33 pm
        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp's Vanity - His Wisdom
        Notes and EK Brochure Photo

         
        The LEM/Mahanta position represents
        an ideal and a goal (for men) to strive
        for in this lifetime. Women will have to
        come back as men (in future lifetimes)
        in order to have a shot at the title. The
        same goes for "Pope" and numerous
        other religious titles. This is the way
        religion works on planet earth.

        People have to elevate one of their own
        in order to feel close to God and have
        him speak for them. Plus, they need
        one voice to speak back to them and
        to relay what God has said. It's less
        confusing that way. Religion is used
        to control the masses so that chaos
        doesn't reign.

        Manmade laws aren't enough, however.
        Mankind needs answers to explain Why
        and How it all began. Of course these
        are what each Soul needs to discover
        on their own. it's private and subjective.
        Actually, this is the way it used to be
        in Eckankar. ECKists weren't to share
        an inner meeting with the Master or
        things of this nature. You didn't want
        to make others feel bad if they hadn't
        had any inner experiences. Of course
        sometimes people lied like Twitchell
        and made things up or embellished
        the stories too. Some people just need
        attention. It got especially bad if a
        new member had an elaborate dream
        experience when the H.I.s hadn't!

        Sometimes religion can give one a jump
        start, (in the beginning), and from there
        a person can begin their own unique Journey
        with the Divine.

        But, the politicians and religionists
        don't want these people to become
        free thinkers. That would lead to Truth
        and the lies might be revealed to others.
        This would be bad for those in power.
        They don't want people to wake-up
        and smell the coffee. Thus, Klemp is
        against drinking coffee! Let's face it...
        the more stupid and fearful people are
        the easier it is to control them.

        Thus, the educational system, especially
        in the U.U., is deprived of qualified
        teachers and text books that are updated
        and revised to reveal a more complete
        and objective view of history. However,
        proficiency tests are taught so that schools
        receive their funding, thus, a real education
        is postponed.

        Those children that are "home schooled"
        due to religious beliefs end up being even
        more out-of-touch with society and much
        less educated.

        This (below) site has comments that
        aren't too far away from fanatical EK
        beliefs and show the hatred, fear, and
        stupidity that religions have propagated
        over time. Klemp's recent comments in
        "Youth Ask a Modern Prophet about Life,
        Love and God" show how religion is used
        to control and stifle individualized behaviour.

        http://www.fstdt.com/Top100.aspx?archive=1

        Prometheus

        etznab wrote:

        I remember reading recently in the Shariyat-
        Ki-Sugmad about "Mahanta".

        The idea of something existing always and
        since the beginning of time was connected
        to the term (see "Eternal Mahanta").

        In my opinion, the idea of something of this
        nature accords more with a higher state of
        consciousness, or what some popularly call
        a "higher self" available to all people & with
        them at all times whether they realize all of
        it, or not, in a single physical lifetime.

        So I naturally asked myself, What has this
        "Mahanta" have to do with being represented
        by any one person above all others? And if a
        living person dies, then what happens to that
        "Eternal Mahanta"? Surely it doesn't die with
        them. I thought. Because that wouldn't be a
        thing always existing. A thing always with a
        person. Like consciousness.

        What I found was that "mahanta", defined by
        Paul Twitchell and Eckankar, was associated
        with a state of consciousness. Therefore, the
        Paul Twitchell / Eckankar definition: Mahanta
        Consciousness.

        In most - if not all - paths similar to illustrated
        Eckankar teachings about a "Living Master" I
        find the emphasis of one particular individual &
        "representation" of God by them. And though
        it might be said "mahanta" gives the initiation,
        it appears to be up to a single individual - ulti-
        mately - at the organization level at least, and
        feedback from other "Higher Initiates" about a
        person and whether they qualify for initiation.

        I think most people can identify with a form of
        "higher self" in the form of consciousness in a
        potential form always existing - whether all of
        it be realized by a single person on Earth at a
        given time, or in a given lifetime.

        What happened in 1971 after Paul Twitchell
        died and before the next Living Master was
        appointed? What happened to "Mahanta Con-
        sciousness"? I don't think anything happened
        to it since it existed since the beginning and
        is existing always. However, some might say
        it defaulted to the "Torch Bearer" Rebazar T.
        I asked myself: Why need it have to go to a
        single person? Is not "higher consciousness",
        even the "highest" present with "God" for all
        time? Why does something like this have to
        be held by a "single individual"? Especially a
        person in the physical body? or other bodies,
        which are "limited" in relation to "God"?

        Does anybody here believe that something like
        "higher consciousness" exists in potential form
        and is available to all persons? I'm not talking
        about what religious dogma says. Eckankar in-
        cluded.

        I ask the former since I wonder if this is what
        "Eckankar" - and paths similar to it - were re-
        ferring to before the worship of Living Masters
        took over. Before the idea of "God in a single
        man" came into vogue. I mean, is it closer to
        reality that "higher consciousness" does not
        exist like a "property" belonging to a single
        person which all other people have to pay for,
        or rent, in order to partake?

        Then there is the "inner master" thing and an
        association of "mahanta" with that. Well, how
        can one person claim rights to it? I mean,
        what happens when that "one person" dies?
        When the physical "outer master" form dies?

        I think this "inner master" / "mahanta" thing
        is something that doesn't belong to a single
        individual and / or religion. I think what does
        belong to the latter is the "DEFINITION" of it.
        Something which hardly qualifies as unlimit-
        ed. IMO.

        All a religion and religious leaders can do is
        serve as "guides" (for better, or for worse),
        the same as anybody else, in my opinion. I
        seriously doubt they own truth to the extent
        of "renting" it, "selling" it when practically all
        religions and religious leaders are inherently
        limited when it comes to what a person has
        to (MUST) do / realize for them self.

        The popularity of religion in history sprang up
        (IMO) when people realized they could profit
        from offering what knowledge existed for the
        subjects of creation, life, death, the afterlife
        and heaven, etc. It did not matter so much if
        the "knowledge" was all true. Stories were a
        source of income, too. IMO. Even in some of
        the temples people employed inventions for
        the manifestation of apparent miracles. What
        they got in return were donations. Of course,
        they didn't tell people the real source of the
        miracles. Otherwise donations might become
        less.

        Etznab

        P.S. Anybody heard a good story lately? I
        might have a use for it :)

        Prometheus wrote:

        Isn't it strange that a "spiritual master"
        (a Mahanta) would still be using an
        outdated photo. This shows that Klemp
        is attached to KAL's lower plane influences.
        This is more proof that HK has fallen
        from SUGMAD's Grace (not that he ever
        had it). Still, for some ECKists Klemp's
        youthful appearance attachment must
        be confusing. Others simply turn a Blind
        Eye to it all... they like the public seeing
        the younger looking photo. It's less
        embarrassing than the real thing. H.I.s,
        especially, live in a state of denial because
        it's comfortable and convenient and
        EK Membership has become habitual
        and ego driven.

        Prometheus
      • prometheus_973
        Hello Etznab, This just goes to show that Klemp changes his direction as much as Twit did. it s to keep Eckists off-balance and confused. He s talking out of
        Message 3 of 21 , Dec 20, 2009
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          Hello Etznab,
          This just goes to show that Klemp
          changes his direction as much as
          Twit did. it's to keep Eckists off-balance
          and confused. He's talking out of
          both both sides of his mouth at the
          same time... like a true KAL agent.

          Many H.I.s see HK's (LEM) outer words
          and the outer EK Works as Limiting
          (Lower) Mental Plane filler. Thus, they
          tend to look to the "pure and higher
          Inner teachings" (of the Mahanta) as
          the true message.

          These inner plane experiences, however,
          is a Catch-22 because they have to have
          Klemp's approval of their "higher" inner
          experiences in order for these to be validated.

          The only way this can be achieved is
          via snail-mail EK publications or by
          HK mentioning their experiences in
          his Seminar talks. Again, this is delayed
          and is another (KAL) Mental Plane form
          of communication.

          Thus, H.I.s, especially, will rationalize
          and pick and choose what guidelines
          and/or EK dogma that is acceptable
          for them to follow. Most H.I.s are just
          treading water, but how long can that
          continue?

          BTW- This Mahanta Consciousness thing...
          what Initiation Level does one have to be
          in order to obtain this? Is it Higher than
          God-Consciousness (Realization)? An H.I.
          has to be a 12th for God-Realization...
          right?

          Prometheus


          etznab wrote:

          "Paradoxical as it may seem, my point in bringing
          out all of this has been to strengthen your faith in the
          Mahanta but not at the expense of making a god
          out of the Mahanta's vehicle, which is the Living ECK
          Master. It's a price we cannot afford to pay. As soon
          as we set someone above us, in potential or in fact,
          we have committed a crime against ourselves: We
          have limited the opportunity for our own unfoldment."

          [Based on: Article (The Real Foundation), by Harold Klemp

          http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/writings.html#ideal

          "We are making an effort to construct a physical history
          of ECKANKAR, looking for actual physical records to
          verify the existence of some of the ECK Masters in a way
          that historians of the future will be able to accept; some-
          thing beyond just the words of one of the Living ECK
          Masters of the past. It will be vital for the survival of
          ECKANKAR as a religious teaching in the future."

          Based on: Harold Klemp, The Secret Teachings, p. 246

          The living Eck Master is a "vehicle" for "Mahanta"?

          We are looking for something "[....] beyond just the
          words of one of the Living ECK Masters of the past"?

          ******************************************************************

          I don't think it wrong for one to state opinions, perspectives,
          ask questions and / or seek to discuss the topic of "Living
          Masters" as vehicles for what has been called "Mahanta".
          Even if it means not making God(s) out of the "vehicles".

          Etznab


          etznab wrote:
          Those were some good points, Prometheus. The topic
          of "mahanta" seems (IMO) central to the teachings of
          Eckankar. However, I'm suspicious about why people
          on the outer would seek to identify with what is surely
          an inner reality living with each & every person / being.

          There are a couple excerpts containing the word
          "mahanta" I wanted to share in order to make a
          point, or two, about what it seems to be. To me.
          What is my perspective / opinion, at least.

          ************************************************************

          Christ Consciousness and the Mahanta Consciousness

          "There is a saying in the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad that
          behind all faces and all people is the Mahanta. [....]"

          http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisSearch.html

          ************************************************************

          Working with Higher Consciousness

          "Many people don't quite understand what it means to
          work with the Mahanta Consciousness. They think merely
          opening up in their consciousness makes them a pure
          channel for the ECK at the highest level of the Mahanta
          Consciousness. If this were true, a Second Initiate of pure
          heart could become the Mahanta, and the outer initiations
          wouldn't count.

          "To fully have the Mahanta Consciousness means to reach
          a certain inner as well as outer initiation. In ECK there is
          always the balance between the inner and the outer. Until we
          have this balance, we have yet to become a Co-worker with
          God. [....]"

          http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisSearch.html

          ************************************************************

          The 2nd paragraph in the Working with Higher Consciousness
          quote is one I want to share a perspective on. First sentence,
          that is.

          "To fully have the Mahanta Consciousness means to reach a
          certain inner as well as outer initiation."

          If the "Mahanta" is the "Inner Master" then why is an outer in-
          iation required to fully have Mahanta Consciousness? In that
          paragraph I quoted, Harold talked about balancing of inner &
          outer. Does this mean "Mahanta" / "Mahanta Consciousness
          has inner and outer elements? Or, the inner awareness of a
          person need be balanced with the outer? In this case, "inner"
          being connected with "mahanta" / "mahanta consciousness"?

          "[....] In ECK there is always the balance between the inner and
          the outer. Until we have this balance, we have yet to become a
          Co-worker with God."

          Maybe this is just another way of saying (If I can quote some
          Metallica lyrics): "Obey your Master! Master!"

          My perspective is that it looks confusing to speak about higher
          awareness / consciousness, an Inner and Outer Master, etc. &
          introduce those ideas from the source of an outer authority. As
          from a form of organized religion with "imperfect" outer writings.

          Those three sections of quotes were from 1985. And yet, there
          was a book (Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, Book One) written back in
          early 1970's attempting to explain the "Mahanta". In my opinion
          the "outer" was NOT the same as the "inner". Plain and simple.
          I believe there was a form of "trinity" spelled out. One of which
          was "Eternal Mahanta".

          So, basically, I think an idea of this "ever-present, higher inner
          awareness" embodied in a human form was inevitable in human
          history. Simply because whoever talked about it would naturally
          be associated with what they were talking about. Otherwise,
          how would they know (what they were talking about)? Authority
          about higher awareness and states of consciousness took on a
          outer form. IMO. And one that differed / differs according to the
          particular religion, dogma, history, etc.

          Does anybody see the potential danger with a trusting in outer
          authority blindly? Accepting everything literally? Perhaps this
          is something that needs to be balanced by the "inner" higher
          awareness / consciousness? Because in this case it makes
          sense to me it's not an outer authority living inside my head,
          not some human being person established inside of myself
          which is the Inner Master and highest state of consciousness
          existing always. That is something on another level altogether
          that doesn't become extracted from inner to the outer where it
          chooses to live in one single human body at a time telling all
          other human bodies that no, it is not there on the outer, no, it
          is on the inner where you need to look. It is the inner where
          the "mahanta" truly resides. And in the same breath implying
          that the "mahanta" is the same as one human being living in
          a physical body. One human being with outer authority to de-
          termine the level of initiation (outer at least) for practically all
          other people in the entire universe!

          It's confusing, IMO. Balancing this "inner" and "outer" thing
          when the two are perceived to be the same, when truly they
          are not the same. In my opinion.

          Is the inner "individual highest consciousness" present with
          all beings going to balance the outer? Or, Is the outer - and in
          the form of other beings independent from the individual - going
          to "balance" (perhaps seek to control) the inner? It might just
          be that words are not sufficient to bring clarity on this topic.
          Or, it might be that outer authority is not sufficient to identify
          itself with a "inner" or "highest state of consciousness" within
          every single individual / being. I suspect.

          Besides, some of the authority about what is "mahanta" can
          be found in books by other authors. Even places where that
          was not the original term in some teachings. Mahatma may
          have been in its place. I'm referring to the writings of Julian J.
          and where he spells out the characteristics of a living master,
          how you can tell one, what is one, etc. etc.

          Some of Johnson's quotes appear in the Eckankar writings,
          but (some of them) changed in some ways. In my opinion. I
          see this as "imperfect outer teachings" and not what came
          from some "being on the inner".

          Etznab

          prometheus wrote:

          The LEM/Mahanta position represents
          an ideal and a goal (for men) to strive
          for in this lifetime. Women will have to
          come back as men (in future lifetimes)
          in order to have a shot at the title. The
          same goes for "Pope" and numerous
          other religious titles. This is the way
          religion works on planet earth.

          People have to elevate one of their own
          in order to feel close to God and have
          him speak for them. Plus, they need
          one voice to speak back to them and
          to relay what God has said. It's less
          confusing that way. Religion is used
          to control the masses so that chaos
          doesn't reign.

          Manmade laws aren't enough, however.
          Mankind needs answers to explain Why
          and How it all began. Of course these
          are what each Soul needs to discover
          on their own. it's private and subjective.
          Actually, this is the way it used to be
          in Eckankar. ECKists weren't to share
          an inner meeting with the Master or
          things of this nature. You didn't want
          to make others feel bad if they hadn't
          had any inner experiences. Of course
          sometimes people lied like Twitchell
          and made things up or embellished
          the stories too. Some people just need
          attention. It got especially bad if a
          new member had an elaborate dream
          experience when the H.I.s hadn't!

          Sometimes religion can give one a jump
          start, (in the beginning), and from there
          a person can begin their own unique Journey
          with the Divine.

          But, the politicians and religionists
          don't want these people to become
          free thinkers. That would lead to Truth
          and the lies might be revealed to others.
          This would be bad for those in power.
          They don't want people to wake-up
          and smell the coffee. Thus, Klemp is
          against drinking coffee! Let's face it...
          the more stupid and fearful people are
          the easier it is to control them.

          Thus, the educational system, especially
          in the U.U., is deprived of qualified
          teachers and text books that are updated
          and revised to reveal a more complete
          and objective view of history. However,
          proficiency tests are taught so that schools
          receive their funding, thus, a real education
          is postponed.

          Those children that are "home schooled"
          due to religious beliefs end up being even
          more out-of-touch with society and much
          less educated.

          This (below) site has comments that
          aren't too far away from fanatical EK
          beliefs and show the hatred, fear, and
          stupidity that religions have propagated
          over time. Klemp's recent comments in
          "Youth Ask a Modern Prophet about Life,
          Love and God" show how religion is used
          to control and stifle individualized behaviour.

          http://www.fstdt.com/Top100.aspx?archive=1

          Prometheus

          etznab wrote:

          I remember reading recently in the Shariyat-
          Ki-Sugmad about "Mahanta".

          The idea of something existing always and
          since the beginning of time was connected
          to the term (see "Eternal Mahanta").

          In my opinion, the idea of something of this
          nature accords more with a higher state of
          consciousness, or what some popularly call
          a "higher self" available to all people & with
          them at all times whether they realize all of
          it, or not, in a single physical lifetime.

          So I naturally asked myself, What has this
          "Mahanta" have to do with being represented
          by any one person above all others? And if a
          living person dies, then what happens to that
          "Eternal Mahanta"? Surely it doesn't die with
          them. I thought. Because that wouldn't be a
          thing always existing. A thing always with a
          person. Like consciousness.

          What I found was that "mahanta", defined by
          Paul Twitchell and Eckankar, was associated
          with a state of consciousness. Therefore, the
          Paul Twitchell / Eckankar definition: Mahanta
          Consciousness.

          In most - if not all - paths similar to illustrated
          Eckankar teachings about a "Living Master" I
          find the emphasis of one particular individual &
          "representation" of God by them. And though
          it might be said "mahanta" gives the initiation,
          it appears to be up to a single individual - ulti-
          mately - at the organization level at least, and
          feedback from other "Higher Initiates" about a
          person and whether they qualify for initiation.

          I think most people can identify with a form of
          "higher self" in the form of consciousness in a
          potential form always existing - whether all of
          it be realized by a single person on Earth at a
          given time, or in a given lifetime.

          What happened in 1971 after Paul Twitchell
          died and before the next Living Master was
          appointed? What happened to "Mahanta Con-
          sciousness"? I don't think anything happened
          to it since it existed since the beginning and
          is existing always. However, some might say
          it defaulted to the "Torch Bearer" Rebazar T.
          I asked myself: Why need it have to go to a
          single person? Is not "higher consciousness",
          even the "highest" present with "God" for all
          time? Why does something like this have to
          be held by a "single individual"? Especially a
          person in the physical body? or other bodies,
          which are "limited" in relation to "God"?

          Does anybody here believe that something like
          "higher consciousness" exists in potential form
          and is available to all persons? I'm not talking
          about what religious dogma says. Eckankar in-
          cluded.

          I ask the former since I wonder if this is what
          "Eckankar" - and paths similar to it - were re-
          ferring to before the worship of Living Masters
          took over. Before the idea of "God in a single
          man" came into vogue. I mean, is it closer to
          reality that "higher consciousness" does not
          exist like a "property" belonging to a single
          person which all other people have to pay for,
          or rent, in order to partake?

          Then there is the "inner master" thing and an
          association of "mahanta" with that. Well, how
          can one person claim rights to it? I mean,
          what happens when that "one person" dies?
          When the physical "outer master" form dies?

          I think this "inner master" / "mahanta" thing
          is something that doesn't belong to a single
          individual and / or religion. I think what does
          belong to the latter is the "DEFINITION" of it.
          Something which hardly qualifies as unlimit-
          ed. IMO.

          All a religion and religious leaders can do is
          serve as "guides" (for better, or for worse),
          the same as anybody else, in my opinion. I
          seriously doubt they own truth to the extent
          of "renting" it, "selling" it when practically all
          religions and religious leaders are inherently
          limited when it comes to what a person has
          to (MUST) do / realize for them self.

          The popularity of religion in history sprang up
          (IMO) when people realized they could profit
          from offering what knowledge existed for the
          subjects of creation, life, death, the afterlife
          and heaven, etc. It did not matter so much if
          the "knowledge" was all true. Stories were a
          source of income, too. IMO. Even in some of
          the temples people employed inventions for
          the manifestation of apparent miracles. What
          they got in return were donations. Of course,
          they didn't tell people the real source of the
          miracles. Otherwise donations might become
          less.

          Etznab

          P.S. Anybody heard a good story lately? I
          might have a use for it :)

          Prometheus wrote:

          Isn't it strange that a "spiritual master"
          (a Mahanta) would still be using an
          outdated photo. This shows that Klemp
          is attached to KAL's lower plane influences.
          This is more proof that HK has fallen
          from SUGMAD's Grace (not that he ever
          had it). Still, for some ECKists Klemp's
          youthful appearance attachment must
          be confusing. Others simply turn a Blind
          Eye to it all... they like the public seeing
          the younger looking photo. It's less
          embarrassing than the real thing. H.I.s,
          especially, live in a state of denial because
          it's comfortable and convenient and
          EK Membership has become habitual
          and ego driven.

          Prometheus
        • prometheus_973
          Hello Etznab, You said, Wasn t the far ancient past like some kind of Golden Age anyway? Compared to today? I don t think so, but it s all relevant to who
          Message 4 of 21 , Dec 20, 2009
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            Hello Etznab,
            You said, "Wasn't the far ancient past
            like some kind of "Golden Age" anyway?
            Compared to today?"

            I don't think so, but it's all relevant to
            who you are and where you are and
            when you were there, as well as, one's
            state of mind. Some people are experiencing
            the "Golden Age" now while others have
            experienced their "Golden Age" in a past
            lifetime. It doesn't necessarily have to
            involve the consciousness of world society...
            only yours and from your perspective.
            All else is illusion and a test for Soul.
            However, the knowledge of true
            history is an aide for us to expand our
            current awareness and to help made
            it better for those who come after us.


            "Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
            truth escape us? How might that have happ-
            ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
            in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
            was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
            untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
            fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
            ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
            blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
            as literally true."


            One can look at different stages and timeframes
            of any society and see where the past was
            better, in some areas, and worse in other
            areas.

            Censorship has always been a control tactic
            used by those in power and how it's used has
            varied. ECKankar has censorship too, and most
            H.I.s know what many of the boundaries are.
            Why censorship is condoned is related to having
            an "EK membership card." One has to follow
            the rules and be a part of the herd. That's why
            many H.I.s turn a blind-eye and deaf-ear to
            most of it in order to have ECKankar work for
            them as it is with any religious belief system.
            Blind Faith, Narrow Thinking, and the constant
            use of the Imagination are key for EK to "work."

            And, after all, Why doesn't Klemp have PT's
            historic book "Difficulties Of Becoming The
            Living ECK Master" reprinted by ECKankar?
            It's because Klemp can't handle the truth
            that it would reveal nor be able to deal with
            the questions and doubt that would ensue.
            Thus, we have censorship which is a negative
            effect caused by Klemp's negative (lower
            KAL plane) fears and deceit!

            Prometheus




            etznab wrote:
            [....] Even in some of the temples people employed
            inventions for the manifestation of apparent miracles.
            What they got in return were donations. Of course,
            they didn't tell people the real source of the miracles.
            Otherwise donations might become less. [....]"

            Something from the description of the movie I saw
            where it documented various forms of deception that
            were employed to make miracles appear to happen
            using different forms of technology. This is where it
            appears that science was used to promote ideas of
            miracle-working gods existing behind the scenes. It
            was a perversion of not only religion, but of science
            as well. In my opinion:

            "Set firmly at the intersection of religion, science
            and commerce, the latest episode of ANCIENT
            DISCOVERIES travels to Rome and Greece to
            explore the commissioning, fabrication and pre-
            sentation of marvels meant to instill awe and draw
            hordes of deep-pocketed devotees. You will be
            amazed to learn how the greatest minds of the age
            were turned to the construction of what were little
            more than parlor tricks, albeit enormously sophist-
            icated and impressive ones."

            http://shop.history.com/detail.php?p=69989&ecid=SEO-0000046&pa=SEO-SSP

            I believe that program appeared on the History
            Channel some time back.

            Add to this the fact people have fabricated even
            ancient artifacts to frauduently propagate church
            history, have told stories that were mythological
            and / or symbolic - but accepted as literal truth,
            used teachings and quotes from the past which
            were fragmentary, little understood, and / or in a
            language nobody today completely understands,
            etc., and I see ample reason to be skeptical. To
            investigate, examine and even question "outer"
            forms of teachings - from science to religion.

            Today it appears ironic how religion and science
            are apparently divided, when many have argued
            it was not always the case. Col. James Church-
            ward speaking about "religion" in Lemuria gives
            an opinion that religion was described in terms
            a child could understand. Also, that religion and
            science were not two separate things in the very
            beginning. In fact, it is my belief, religion was
            described in "scientific" terms then because the
            people knew how both were connected.

            So, when science today is used to investigate,
            examine and, in some cases expose religious
            fraud I think it helps to remember how science
            was not always the record of ignorance about
            how things work that is in existence today.

            And, in my opinion, some people from earlier
            times may have been much more advanced,
            not less advanced (generally), compared with
            people living today. Looking at remains of the
            past through a modern (ignorant of the past)
            lens and portraying them as less civilized,
            less knowledgeable and less wise is (IMO) a
            major insult to history. I'm talking particularly
            about the ancient and far ancient past. Times
            when monuments were constructed and tech-
            nology existed that people today are still try-
            ing to fathom.

            Wasn't the far ancient past like some kind of
            "Golden Age" anyway? Compared to today?
            Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
            truth escape us? How might that have happ-
            ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
            in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
            was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
            untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
            fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
            ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
            blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
            as literally true.

            Etznab
          • etznab@aol.com
            Prometheus, I believe the term mahanta consciousness evolved over time according to descriptions given to it via Eckankar. Like, what was it? 1969 before
            Message 5 of 21 , Dec 20, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              Prometheus,

              I believe the term "mahanta consciousness"
              evolved over time according to descriptions
              given to it via Eckankar. Like, what was it?
              1969 before Paul mentioned "mahanta" in
              a wisdom note and The Flute of God? The
              fuller descriptions of L.E.M. & Mahanta did
              not appear until the last couple years in the
              life of Paul Twitchell when he set out to ex-
              plain them in the Shariyat books, I believe.
              1970-1971?

              In some earlier books with Rebazar Tarzs
              I don't know that the word "mahanta" was
              even given much mention, if at all. I think
              the term "spiritual traveler" was mentioned
              more.

              Also, I have to consider the appearance in
              Paul T's early dictionary for the term, and
              where so many people (some legendary)
              from history were said to be the mahanta
              consciousness as vehicle for the Sugmad
              as it appeared to .... (in so many words),
              etc.

              Jesus and Krishna were both mentioned.
              And yet, Jesus is generally understood -
              in Eckankar history - to have been a 2nd
              initiate only.

              So what initiation level is the "mahanta
              consciousness"? I couldn't tell you. All I
              can say (at this point) is the definitions
              have apparently evolved over the years. I
              believe that when the teachings became
              a religion in July 1970 that "mahanta" &
              L.E.M. merged to become identified as
              the same thing around that time. Since I
              suspect Eckankar had to be defined for
              legal purposes and one of the things they
              ask you (IMO) is: What is the title of the
              person in charge & who is that person?

              This is speculation on my part. Paul did
              mention at least 3 "levels" of Mahanta -
              I believe - in the Shariyat. Including the
              "Eternal Mahanta" and "Historical Maha-
              anta". All of these merged into the head
              of the religion and organization of Eck-
              ankar at some point, if you ask me. It is
              very hard for the organization to separate
              them from the leader of Eckankar, IMO,
              as that might suggest the physical body,
              the vehicle and leader of Eckankar is but
              a limited form of "highest consciousness".
              Remember the last part for the definition
              for Mahanta Consciousnes used to be:

              "[....] a state of God consciousness which
              is beyond the titles given in religions which
              designate states of consciousness; the
              highest of all states of consciousness."

              [See: Paul Twitchell Dictionary]

              It means not so much of anything to me
              what appears beside the definition(s) for
              "mahanta" today unless I can prove that
              information to be true. I think Paul said &
              wrote a lot of stuff. I also think he exagg-
              erated in some places. Besides that I do
              not see how a highest state of conscious-
              ness can be identified with a human and
              limited vehicle. I'll give you an example.
              Suppose a leader of Eckankar has / had
              a physical disability of some kind. Even
              suppose a leader died. How can human
              beings limited by the physical senses &
              human mortality equate with a "highest
              state of consciousness"? Or, the highest?
              Especially one such as called "Eternal
              Mahanta" present from the beginning of
              time?

              Some things (including the highest of all
              states of consciousness) became at one
              point identified with a single human being,
              IMO. This is what I suspect, at least.

              Etznab


              -----Original Message-----
              From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sun, Dec 20, 2009 2:50 pm
              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp's Vanity - His Wisdom
              Notes and EK Brochure Photo

               
              Hello Etznab,
              You said, "Wasn't the far ancient past
              like some kind of "Golden Age" anyway?
              Compared to today?"

              I don't think so, but it's all relevant to
              who you are and where you are and
              when you were there, as well as, one's
              state of mind. Some people are experiencing
              the "Golden Age" now while others have
              experienced their "Golden Age" in a past
              lifetime. It doesn't necessarily have to
              involve the consciousness of world society...
              only yours and from your perspective.
              All else is illusion and a test for Soul.
              However, the knowledge of true
              history is an aide for us to expand our
              current awareness and to help made
              it better for those who come after us.

              "Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
              truth escape us? How might that have happ-
              ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
              in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
              was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
              untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
              fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
              ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
              blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
              as literally true."

              One can look at different stages and timeframes
              of any society and see where the past was
              better, in some areas, and worse in other
              areas.

              Censorship has always been a control tactic
              used by those in power and how it's used has
              varied. ECKankar has censorship too, and most
              H.I.s know what many of the boundaries are.
              Why censorship is condoned is related to having
              an "EK membership card." One has to follow
              the rules and be a part of the herd. That's why
              many H.I.s turn a blind-eye and deaf-ear to
              most of it in order to have ECKankar work for
              them as it is with any religious belief system.
              Blind Faith, Narrow Thinking, and the constant
              use of the Imagination are key for EK to "work."

              And, after all, Why doesn't Klemp have PT's
              historic book "Difficulties Of Becoming The
              Living ECK Master" reprinted by ECKankar?
              It's because Klemp can't handle the truth
              that it would reveal nor be able to deal with
              the questions and doubt that would ensue.
              Thus, we have censorship which is a negative
              effect caused by Klemp's negative (lower
              KAL plane) fears and deceit!

              Prometheus

              etznab wrote:
              [....] Even in some of the temples people employed
              inventions for the manifestation of apparent miracles.
              What they got in return were donations. Of course,
              they didn't tell people the real source of the miracles.
              Otherwise donations might become less. [....]"

              Something from the description of the movie I saw
              where it documented various forms of deception that
              were employed to make miracles appear to happen
              using different forms of technology. This is where it
              appears that science was used to promote ideas of
              miracle-working gods existing behind the scenes. It
              was a perversion of not only religion, but of science
              as well. In my opinion:

              "Set firmly at the intersection of religion, science
              and commerce, the latest episode of ANCIENT
              DISCOVERIES travels to Rome and Greece to
              explore the commissioning, fabrication and pre-
              sentation of marvels meant to instill awe and draw
              hordes of deep-pocketed devotees. You will be
              amazed to learn how the greatest minds of the age
              were turned to the construction of what were little
              more than parlor tricks, albeit enormously sophist-
              icated and impressive ones."

              http://shop.history.com/detail.php?p=69989&ecid=SEO-0000046&pa=SEO-SSP

              I believe that program appeared on the History
              Channel some time back.

              Add to this the fact people have fabricated even
              ancient artifacts to frauduently propagate church
              history, have told stories that were mythological
              and / or symbolic - but accepted as literal truth,
              used teachings and quotes from the past which
              were fragmentary, little understood, and / or in a
              language nobody today completely understands,
              etc., and I see ample reason to be skeptical. To
              investigate, examine and even question "outer"
              forms of teachings - from science to religion.

              Today it appears ironic how religion and science
              are apparently divided, when many have argued
              it was not always the case. Col. James Church-
              ward speaking about "religion" in Lemuria gives
              an opinion that religion was described in terms
              a child could understand. Also, that religion and
              science were not two separate things in the very
              beginning. In fact, it is my belief, religion was
              described in "scientific" terms then because the
              people knew how both were connected.

              So, when science today is used to investigate,
              examine and, in some cases expose religious
              fraud I think it helps to remember how science
              was not always the record of ignorance about
              how things work that is in existence today.

              And, in my opinion, some people from earlier
              times may have been much more advanced,
              not less advanced (generally), compared with
              people living today. Looking at remains of the
              past through a modern (ignorant of the past)
              lens and portraying them as less civilized,
              less knowledgeable and less wise is (IMO) a
              major insult to history. I'm talking particularly
              about the ancient and far ancient past. Times
              when monuments were constructed and tech-
              nology existed that people today are still try-
              ing to fathom.

              Wasn't the far ancient past like some kind of
              "Golden Age" anyway? Compared to today?
              Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
              truth escape us? How might that have happ-
              ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
              in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
              was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
              untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
              fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
              ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
              blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
              as literally true.

              Etznab
            • prometheus_973
              You make some good points Etznab. I would say that the Roman God Jupiter was an Astral Plane God that was created by the Romans. Then again, I think that all
              Message 6 of 21 , Dec 20, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                You make some good points Etznab.
                I would say that the Roman God Jupiter
                was an Astral Plane God that was created
                by the Romans. Then again, I think that
                all of those Gods that religions worship
                have been created by men. Is it no wonder,
                then, that in PT's Eckankar Dictionary
                and in Klemp's 1998 EK Lexicon that they
                both state that the Roman God "Jupiter
                was the Mahanta Consciousness to the
                Romans." Thus, by definition, the Mahanta
                is also a 2nd Plane God and is, therefore,
                of the Astral Plane of Consciousness which
                is ruled by KAL (Satan, devil).

                Prometheus


                etznab wrote:

                rometheus,

                I believe the term "mahanta consciousness"
                evolved over time according to descriptions
                given to it via Eckankar. Like, what was it?
                1969 before Paul mentioned "mahanta" in
                a wisdom note and The Flute of God? The
                fuller descriptions of L.E.M. & Mahanta did
                not appear until the last couple years in the
                life of Paul Twitchell when he set out to ex-
                plain them in the Shariyat books, I believe.
                1970-1971?

                In some earlier books with Rebazar Tarzs
                I don't know that the word "mahanta" was
                even given much mention, if at all. I think
                the term "spiritual traveler" was mentioned
                more.

                Also, I have to consider the appearance in
                Paul T's early dictionary for the term, and
                where so many people (some legendary)
                from history were said to be the mahanta
                consciousness as vehicle for the Sugmad
                as it appeared to .... (in so many words),
                etc.

                Jesus and Krishna were both mentioned.
                And yet, Jesus is generally understood -
                in Eckankar history - to have been a 2nd
                initiate only.

                So what initiation level is the "mahanta
                consciousness"? I couldn't tell you. All I
                can say (at this point) is the definitions
                have apparently evolved over the years. I
                believe that when the teachings became
                a religion in July 1970 that "mahanta" &
                L.E.M. merged to become identified as
                the same thing around that time. Since I
                suspect Eckankar had to be defined for
                legal purposes and one of the things they
                ask you (IMO) is: What is the title of the
                person in charge & who is that person?

                This is speculation on my part. Paul did
                mention at least 3 "levels" of Mahanta -
                I believe - in the Shariyat. Including the
                "Eternal Mahanta" and "Historical Maha-
                anta". All of these merged into the head
                of the religion and organization of Eck-
                ankar at some point, if you ask me. It is
                very hard for the organization to separate
                them from the leader of Eckankar, IMO,
                as that might suggest the physical body,
                the vehicle and leader of Eckankar is but
                a limited form of "highest consciousness".
                Remember the last part for the definition
                for Mahanta Consciousnes used to be:

                "[....] a state of God consciousness which
                is beyond the titles given in religions which
                designate states of consciousness; the
                highest of all states of consciousness."

                [See: Paul Twitchell Dictionary]

                It means not so much of anything to me
                what appears beside the definition(s) for
                "mahanta" today unless I can prove that
                information to be true. I think Paul said &
                wrote a lot of stuff. I also think he exagg-
                erated in some places. Besides that I do
                not see how a highest state of conscious-
                ness can be identified with a human and
                limited vehicle. I'll give you an example.
                Suppose a leader of Eckankar has / had
                a physical disability of some kind. Even
                suppose a leader died. How can human
                beings limited by the physical senses &
                human mortality equate with a "highest
                state of consciousness"? Or, the highest?
                Especially one such as called "Eternal
                Mahanta" present from the beginning of
                time?

                Some things (including the highest of all
                states of consciousness) became at one
                point identified with a single human being,
                IMO. This is what I suspect, at least.

                Etznab


                prometheus wrote:
                Hello Etznab,
                You said, "Wasn't the far ancient past
                like some kind of "Golden Age" anyway?
                Compared to today?"

                I don't think so, but it's all relevant to
                who you are and where you are and
                when you were there, as well as, one's
                state of mind. Some people are experiencing
                the "Golden Age" now while others have
                experienced their "Golden Age" in a past
                lifetime. It doesn't necessarily have to
                involve the consciousness of world society...
                only yours and from your perspective.
                All else is illusion and a test for Soul.
                However, the knowledge of true
                history is an aide for us to expand our
                current awareness and to help made
                it better for those who come after us.

                "Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
                truth escape us? How might that have happ-
                ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
                in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
                was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
                untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
                fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
                ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
                blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
                as literally true."

                One can look at different stages and timeframes
                of any society and see where the past was
                better, in some areas, and worse in other
                areas.

                Censorship has always been a control tactic
                used by those in power and how it's used has
                varied. ECKankar has censorship too, and most
                H.I.s know what many of the boundaries are.
                Why censorship is condoned is related to having
                an "EK membership card." One has to follow
                the rules and be a part of the herd. That's why
                many H.I.s turn a blind-eye and deaf-ear to
                most of it in order to have ECKankar work for
                them as it is with any religious belief system.
                Blind Faith, Narrow Thinking, and the constant
                use of the Imagination are key for EK to "work."

                And, after all, Why doesn't Klemp have PT's
                historic book "Difficulties Of Becoming The
                Living ECK Master" reprinted by ECKankar?
                It's because Klemp can't handle the truth
                that it would reveal nor be able to deal with
                the questions and doubt that would ensue.
                Thus, we have censorship which is a negative
                effect caused by Klemp's negative (lower
                KAL plane) fears and deceit!

                Prometheus

                etznab wrote:
                [....] Even in some of the temples people employed
                inventions for the manifestation of apparent miracles.
                What they got in return were donations. Of course,
                they didn't tell people the real source of the miracles.
                Otherwise donations might become less. [....]"

                Something from the description of the movie I saw
                where it documented various forms of deception that
                were employed to make miracles appear to happen
                using different forms of technology. This is where it
                appears that science was used to promote ideas of
                miracle-working gods existing behind the scenes. It
                was a perversion of not only religion, but of science
                as well. In my opinion:

                "Set firmly at the intersection of religion, science
                and commerce, the latest episode of ANCIENT
                DISCOVERIES travels to Rome and Greece to
                explore the commissioning, fabrication and pre-
                sentation of marvels meant to instill awe and draw
                hordes of deep-pocketed devotees. You will be
                amazed to learn how the greatest minds of the age
                were turned to the construction of what were little
                more than parlor tricks, albeit enormously sophist-
                icated and impressive ones."

                http://shop.history.com/detail.php?p=69989&ecid=SEO-0000046&pa=SEO-SSP

                I believe that program appeared on the History
                Channel some time back.

                Add to this the fact people have fabricated even
                ancient artifacts to frauduently propagate church
                history, have told stories that were mythological
                and / or symbolic - but accepted as literal truth,
                used teachings and quotes from the past which
                were fragmentary, little understood, and / or in a
                language nobody today completely understands,
                etc., and I see ample reason to be skeptical. To
                investigate, examine and even question "outer"
                forms of teachings - from science to religion.

                Today it appears ironic how religion and science
                are apparently divided, when many have argued
                it was not always the case. Col. James Church-
                ward speaking about "religion" in Lemuria gives
                an opinion that religion was described in terms
                a child could understand. Also, that religion and
                science were not two separate things in the very
                beginning. In fact, it is my belief, religion was
                described in "scientific" terms then because the
                people knew how both were connected.

                So, when science today is used to investigate,
                examine and, in some cases expose religious
                fraud I think it helps to remember how science
                was not always the record of ignorance about
                how things work that is in existence today.

                And, in my opinion, some people from earlier
                times may have been much more advanced,
                not less advanced (generally), compared with
                people living today. Looking at remains of the
                past through a modern (ignorant of the past)
                lens and portraying them as less civilized,
                less knowledgeable and less wise is (IMO) a
                major insult to history. I'm talking particularly
                about the ancient and far ancient past. Times
                when monuments were constructed and tech-
                nology existed that people today are still try-
                ing to fathom.

                Wasn't the far ancient past like some kind of
                "Golden Age" anyway? Compared to today?
                Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
                truth escape us? How might that have happ-
                ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
                in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
                was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
                untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
                fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
                ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
                blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
                as literally true.

                Etznab
              • etznab@aol.com
                The words as it appeared to are interesting to me in those definitions for mahanta consciousness . This suggests to me that the M.C. can appear to people
                Message 7 of 21 , Dec 21, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  The words "as it appeared to" are interesting to me
                  in those definitions for "mahanta consciousness".

                  This suggests to me that the "M.C." can appear to
                  people under so many different forms. Like Jesus,
                  Krishna, Jupiter, etc.

                  Also interesting was how Krishna was described in
                  somewhat negative terms by both Julian Johnson &
                  Paul Twitchell. At other times the description is not
                  so negative.

                  In about the 1970s though, Paul appears to elaborate
                  further about "mahanta". He describes the "historical"
                  and "eternal" mahantas. I believe. There was a third
                  in the group (trinity) as well.

                  Perhaps Paul Twitchell, Darwin Gross and Harold K.
                  fit into the category of "historical" mahanta? (Right
                  along there with Jesus, Jupiter and Krishna, etc.?)

                  Of course some of those characters are composed
                  of myths and the literal history dubious and far from
                  reality in some places. IMO.

                  BTW, I see no entry for "Eternal Mahanta" and / or
                  "Historical Mahanta" in Harold Klemp & Eckankar's
                  Lexicon. I don't believe they have an entry in Paul T.
                  Eckankar dictionary either.

                  I believe the Eckankar dictionary came out in 1973
                  and after Paul Twitchell was already dead. However,
                  I believe it was in Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad (1970?) that
                  Paul elaborated on "mahanta". I will have to check
                  to see whether Darwin Gross or Harold Klemp wrote
                  about eternal, or historical mahantas and the reason
                  for illustrating them.

                  Etznab


                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sun, Dec 20, 2009 10:37 pm
                  Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp's Vanity - His Wisdom
                  Notes and EK Brochure Photo

                   
                  You make some good points Etznab.
                  I would say that the Roman God Jupiter
                  was an Astral Plane God that was created
                  by the Romans. Then again, I think that
                  all of those Gods that religions worship
                  have been created by men. Is it no wonder,
                  then, that in PT's Eckankar Dictionary
                  and in Klemp's 1998 EK Lexicon that they
                  both state that the Roman God "Jupiter
                  was the Mahanta Consciousness to the
                  Romans." Thus, by definition, the Mahanta
                  is also a 2nd Plane God and is, therefore,
                  of the Astral Plane of Consciousness which
                  is ruled by KAL (Satan, devil).

                  Prometheus

                  etznab wrote:

                  rometheus,

                  I believe the term "mahanta consciousness"
                  evolved over time according to descriptions
                  given to it via Eckankar. Like, what was it?
                  1969 before Paul mentioned "mahanta" in
                  a wisdom note and The Flute of God? The
                  fuller descriptions of L.E.M. & Mahanta did
                  not appear until the last couple years in the
                  life of Paul Twitchell when he set out to ex-
                  plain them in the Shariyat books, I believe.
                  1970-1971?

                  In some earlier books with Rebazar Tarzs
                  I don't know that the word "mahanta" was
                  even given much mention, if at all. I think
                  the term "spiritual traveler" was mentioned
                  more.

                  Also, I have to consider the appearance in
                  Paul T's early dictionary for the term, and
                  where so many people (some legendary)
                  from history were said to be the mahanta
                  consciousness as vehicle for the Sugmad
                  as it appeared to .... (in so many words),
                  etc.

                  Jesus and Krishna were both mentioned.
                  And yet, Jesus is generally understood -
                  in Eckankar history - to have been a 2nd
                  initiate only.

                  So what initiation level is the "mahanta
                  consciousness"? I couldn't tell you. All I
                  can say (at this point) is the definitions
                  have apparently evolved over the years. I
                  believe that when the teachings became
                  a religion in July 1970 that "mahanta" &
                  L.E.M. merged to become identified as
                  the same thing around that time. Since I
                  suspect Eckankar had to be defined for
                  legal purposes and one of the things they
                  ask you (IMO) is: What is the title of the
                  person in charge & who is that person?

                  This is speculation on my part. Paul did
                  mention at least 3 "levels" of Mahanta -
                  I believe - in the Shariyat. Including the
                  "Eternal Mahanta" and "Historical Maha-
                  anta". All of these merged into the head
                  of the religion and organization of Eck-
                  ankar at some point, if you ask me. It is
                  very hard for the organization to separate
                  them from the leader of Eckankar, IMO,
                  as that might suggest the physical body,
                  the vehicle and leader of Eckankar is but
                  a limited form of "highest consciousness".
                  Remember the last part for the definition
                  for Mahanta Consciousnes used to be:

                  "[....] a state of God consciousness which
                  is beyond the titles given in religions which
                  designate states of consciousness; the
                  highest of all states of consciousness."

                  [See: Paul Twitchell Dictionary]

                  It means not so much of anything to me
                  what appears beside the definition(s) for
                  "mahanta" today unless I can prove that
                  information to be true. I think Paul said &
                  wrote a lot of stuff. I also think he exagg-
                  erated in some places. Besides that I do
                  not see how a highest state of conscious-
                  ness can be identified with a human and
                  limited vehicle. I'll give you an example.
                  Suppose a leader of Eckankar has / had
                  a physical disability of some kind. Even
                  suppose a leader died. How can human
                  beings limited by the physical senses &
                  human mortality equate with a "highest
                  state of consciousness"? Or, the highest?
                  Especially one such as called "Eternal
                  Mahanta" present from the beginning of
                  time?

                  Some things (including the highest of all
                  states of consciousness) became at one
                  point identified with a single human being,
                  IMO. This is what I suspect, at least.

                  Etznab

                  prometheus wrote:
                  Hello Etznab,
                  You said, "Wasn't the far ancient past
                  like some kind of "Golden Age" anyway?
                  Compared to today?"

                  I don't think so, but it's all relevant to
                  who you are and where you are and
                  when you were there, as well as, one's
                  state of mind. Some people are experiencing
                  the "Golden Age" now while others have
                  experienced their "Golden Age" in a past
                  lifetime. It doesn't necessarily have to
                  involve the consciousness of world society...
                  only yours and from your perspective.
                  All else is illusion and a test for Soul.
                  However, the knowledge of true
                  history is an aide for us to expand our
                  current awareness and to help made
                  it better for those who come after us.

                  "Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
                  truth escape us? How might that have happ-
                  ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
                  in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
                  was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
                  untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
                  fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
                  ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
                  blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
                  as literally true."

                  One can look at different stages and timeframes
                  of any society and see where the past was
                  better, in some areas, and worse in other
                  areas.

                  Censorship has always been a control tactic
                  used by those in power and how it's used has
                  varied. ECKankar has censorship too, and most
                  H.I.s know what many of the boundaries are.
                  Why censorship is condoned is related to having
                  an "EK membership card." One has to follow
                  the rules and be a part of the herd. That's why
                  many H.I.s turn a blind-eye and deaf-ear to
                  most of it in order to have ECKankar work for
                  them as it is with any religious belief system.
                  Blind Faith, Narrow Thinking, and the constant
                  use of the Imagination are key for EK to "work."

                  And, after all, Why doesn't Klemp have PT's
                  historic book "Difficulties Of Becoming The
                  Living ECK Master" reprinted by ECKankar?
                  It's because Klemp can't handle the truth
                  that it would reveal nor be able to deal with
                  the questions and doubt that would ensue.
                  Thus, we have censorship which is a negative
                  effect caused by Klemp's negative (lower
                  KAL plane) fears and deceit!

                  Prometheus

                  etznab wrote:
                  [....] Even in some of the temples people employed
                  inventions for the manifestation of apparent miracles.
                  What they got in return were donations. Of course,
                  they didn't tell people the real source of the miracles.
                  Otherwise donations might become less. [....]"

                  Something from the description of the movie I saw
                  where it documented various forms of deception that
                  were employed to make miracles appear to happen
                  using different forms of technology. This is where it
                  appears that science was used to promote ideas of
                  miracle-working gods existing behind the scenes. It
                  was a perversion of not only religion, but of science
                  as well. In my opinion:

                  "Set firmly at the intersection of religion, science
                  and commerce, the latest episode of ANCIENT
                  DISCOVERIES travels to Rome and Greece to
                  explore the commissioning, fabrication and pre-
                  sentation of marvels meant to instill awe and draw
                  hordes of deep-pocketed devotees. You will be
                  amazed to learn how the greatest minds of the age
                  were turned to the construction of what were little
                  more than parlor tricks, albeit enormously sophist-
                  icated and impressive ones."

                  http://shop.history.com/detail.php?p=69989&amp;ecid=SEO-0000046&pa=SEO-SSP

                  I believe that program appeared on the History
                  Channel some time back.

                  Add to this the fact people have fabricated even
                  ancient artifacts to frauduently propagate church
                  history, have told stories that were mythological
                  and / or symbolic - but accepted as literal truth,
                  used teachings and quotes from the past which
                  were fragmentary, little understood, and / or in a
                  language nobody today completely understands,
                  etc., and I see ample reason to be skeptical. To
                  investigate, examine and even question "outer"
                  forms of teachings - from science to religion.

                  Today it appears ironic how religion and science
                  are apparently divided, when many have argued
                  it was not always the case. Col. James Church-
                  ward speaking about "religion" in Lemuria gives
                  an opinion that religion was described in terms
                  a child could understand. Also, that religion and
                  science were not two separate things in the very
                  beginning. In fact, it is my belief, religion was
                  described in "scientific" terms then because the
                  people knew how both were connected.

                  So, when science today is used to investigate,
                  examine and, in some cases expose religious
                  fraud I think it helps to remember how science
                  was not always the record of ignorance about
                  how things work that is in existence today.

                  And, in my opinion, some people from earlier
                  times may have been much more advanced,
                  not less advanced (generally), compared with
                  people living today. Looking at remains of the
                  past through a modern (ignorant of the past)
                  lens and portraying them as less civilized,
                  less knowledgeable and less wise is (IMO) a
                  major insult to history. I'm talking particularly
                  about the ancient and far ancient past. Times
                  when monuments were constructed and tech-
                  nology existed that people today are still try-
                  ing to fathom.

                  Wasn't the far ancient past like some kind of
                  "Golden Age" anyway? Compared to today?
                  Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
                  truth escape us? How might that have happ-
                  ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
                  in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
                  was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
                  untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
                  fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
                  ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
                  blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
                  as literally true.

                  Etznab
                • prometheus_973
                  You re right! Klemp has said that, Jupiter was the Mahanta Consciousness as it appeared to the Romans, or as it appears to EKists via the LEM! BTW- The
                  Message 8 of 21 , Dec 21, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    You're right! Klemp has said that, "Jupiter
                    was the 'Mahanta Consciousness' as it appeared
                    to the Romans," or "as it appears" to EKists
                    via the LEM!

                    BTW- The term you were probably looking for
                    is: "Adi-Mahanta. The primordial Mahanta. The
                    line of Mastership begun with RAMA, the first
                    world Savior, which has been handed down through
                    the centuries by the ECK Masters via Oral Secret
                    Teachings to those who were Initiated into the
                    Order of the Vairagi." (EK Lexicon, 1998, pg. 3)

                    This is interesting because this same "Rama"
                    is an Indian God who HK claims "brought the
                    ECK to India and later to the Aryans, the Fifth
                    Root Race." So, the First Mahanta only came
                    on-the-scene during the time of the Fifth Root
                    Race. And, this title and Consciousness was created
                    by the Vairagi Masters and not by Sugmad directly
                    (pg.172).

                    Now, if someone were to look up "Aryans" in
                    HK's 1998 EK Lexicon they would see that this
                    is the current ruling race. BTW- "RAMA" was not
                    listed as being a Mahanta in the EK Lexicon...
                    only a LEM. Why wouldn't Klemp list him as
                    a (Full) Mahanta? Maybe he's more detailed in
                    the new EK Lexicon and has done another
                    Tweak (reedit).

                    However, the truth is that Twitchell created
                    Eckankar's Mahanta circa Jan. 1, 1969. And,
                    "Mahanta" actually means "monastery head."
                    Marman and many other EKists know this, but
                    for Eckankar to work as a belief system one
                    has to have "faith" and toss reason aside! This
                    is how religions work... No Thinking is needed!

                    Prometheus




                    etznab wrote:

                    The words "as it appeared to" are interesting to me
                    in those definitions for "mahanta consciousness".

                    This suggests to me that the "M.C." can appear to
                    people under so many different forms. Like Jesus,
                    Krishna, Jupiter, etc.

                    Also interesting was how Krishna was described in
                    somewhat negative terms by both Julian Johnson &
                    Paul Twitchell. At other times the description is not
                    so negative.

                    In about the 1970s though, Paul appears to elaborate
                    further about "mahanta". He describes the "historical"
                    and "eternal" mahantas. I believe. There was a third
                    in the group (trinity) as well.

                    Perhaps Paul Twitchell, Darwin Gross and Harold K.
                    fit into the category of "historical" mahanta? (Right
                    along there with Jesus, Jupiter and Krishna, etc.?)

                    Of course some of those characters are composed
                    of myths and the literal history dubious and far from
                    reality in some places. IMO.

                    BTW, I see no entry for "Eternal Mahanta" and / or
                    "Historical Mahanta" in Harold Klemp & Eckankar's
                    Lexicon. I don't believe they have an entry in Paul T.
                    Eckankar dictionary either.

                    I believe the Eckankar dictionary came out in 1973
                    and after Paul Twitchell was already dead. However,
                    I believe it was in Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad (1970?) that
                    Paul elaborated on "mahanta". I will have to check
                    to see whether Darwin Gross or Harold Klemp wrote
                    about eternal, or historical mahantas and the reason
                    for illustrating them.

                    Etznab


                    prometheus wrote:
                    You make some good points Etznab.
                    I would say that the Roman God Jupiter
                    was an Astral Plane God that was created
                    by the Romans. Then again, I think that
                    all of those Gods that religions worship
                    have been created by men. Is it no wonder,
                    then, that in PT's Eckankar Dictionary
                    and in Klemp's 1998 EK Lexicon that they
                    both state that the Roman God "Jupiter
                    was the Mahanta Consciousness to the
                    Romans." Thus, by definition, the Mahanta
                    is also a 2nd Plane God and is, therefore,
                    of the Astral Plane of Consciousness which
                    is ruled by KAL (Satan, devil).

                    Prometheus

                    etznab wrote:

                    rometheus,

                    I believe the term "mahanta consciousness"
                    evolved over time according to descriptions
                    given to it via Eckankar. Like, what was it?
                    1969 before Paul mentioned "mahanta" in
                    a wisdom note and The Flute of God? The
                    fuller descriptions of L.E.M. & Mahanta did
                    not appear until the last couple years in the
                    life of Paul Twitchell when he set out to ex-
                    plain them in the Shariyat books, I believe.
                    1970-1971?

                    In some earlier books with Rebazar Tarzs
                    I don't know that the word "mahanta" was
                    even given much mention, if at all. I think
                    the term "spiritual traveler" was mentioned
                    more.

                    Also, I have to consider the appearance in
                    Paul T's early dictionary for the term, and
                    where so many people (some legendary)
                    from history were said to be the mahanta
                    consciousness as vehicle for the Sugmad
                    as it appeared to .... (in so many words),
                    etc.

                    Jesus and Krishna were both mentioned.
                    And yet, Jesus is generally understood -
                    in Eckankar history - to have been a 2nd
                    initiate only.

                    So what initiation level is the "mahanta
                    consciousness"? I couldn't tell you. All I
                    can say (at this point) is the definitions
                    have apparently evolved over the years. I
                    believe that when the teachings became
                    a religion in July 1970 that "mahanta" &
                    L.E.M. merged to become identified as
                    the same thing around that time. Since I
                    suspect Eckankar had to be defined for
                    legal purposes and one of the things they
                    ask you (IMO) is: What is the title of the
                    person in charge & who is that person?

                    This is speculation on my part. Paul did
                    mention at least 3 "levels" of Mahanta -
                    I believe - in the Shariyat. Including the
                    "Eternal Mahanta" and "Historical Maha-
                    anta". All of these merged into the head
                    of the religion and organization of Eck-
                    ankar at some point, if you ask me. It is
                    very hard for the organization to separate
                    them from the leader of Eckankar, IMO,
                    as that might suggest the physical body,
                    the vehicle and leader of Eckankar is but
                    a limited form of "highest consciousness".
                    Remember the last part for the definition
                    for Mahanta Consciousnes used to be:

                    "[....] a state of God consciousness which
                    is beyond the titles given in religions which
                    designate states of consciousness; the
                    highest of all states of consciousness."

                    [See: Paul Twitchell Dictionary]

                    It means not so much of anything to me
                    what appears beside the definition(s) for
                    "mahanta" today unless I can prove that
                    information to be true. I think Paul said &
                    wrote a lot of stuff. I also think he exagg-
                    erated in some places. Besides that I do
                    not see how a highest state of conscious-
                    ness can be identified with a human and
                    limited vehicle. I'll give you an example.
                    Suppose a leader of Eckankar has / had
                    a physical disability of some kind. Even
                    suppose a leader died. How can human
                    beings limited by the physical senses &
                    human mortality equate with a "highest
                    state of consciousness"? Or, the highest?
                    Especially one such as called "Eternal
                    Mahanta" present from the beginning of
                    time?

                    Some things (including the highest of all
                    states of consciousness) became at one
                    point identified with a single human being,
                    IMO. This is what I suspect, at least.

                    Etznab

                    prometheus wrote:
                    Hello Etznab,
                    You said, "Wasn't the far ancient past
                    like some kind of "Golden Age" anyway?
                    Compared to today?"

                    I don't think so, but it's all relevant to
                    who you are and where you are and
                    when you were there, as well as, one's
                    state of mind. Some people are experiencing
                    the "Golden Age" now while others have
                    experienced their "Golden Age" in a past
                    lifetime. It doesn't necessarily have to
                    involve the consciousness of world society...
                    only yours and from your perspective.
                    All else is illusion and a test for Soul.
                    However, the knowledge of true
                    history is an aide for us to expand our
                    current awareness and to help made
                    it better for those who come after us.

                    "Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
                    truth escape us? How might that have happ-
                    ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
                    in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
                    was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
                    untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
                    fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
                    ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
                    blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
                    as literally true."

                    One can look at different stages and timeframes
                    of any society and see where the past was
                    better, in some areas, and worse in other
                    areas.

                    Censorship has always been a control tactic
                    used by those in power and how it's used has
                    varied. ECKankar has censorship too, and most
                    H.I.s know what many of the boundaries are.
                    Why censorship is condoned is related to having
                    an "EK membership card." One has to follow
                    the rules and be a part of the herd. That's why
                    many H.I.s turn a blind-eye and deaf-ear to
                    most of it in order to have ECKankar work for
                    them as it is with any religious belief system.
                    Blind Faith, Narrow Thinking, and the constant
                    use of the Imagination are key for EK to "work."

                    And, after all, Why doesn't Klemp have PT's
                    historic book "Difficulties Of Becoming The
                    Living ECK Master" reprinted by ECKankar?
                    It's because Klemp can't handle the truth
                    that it would reveal nor be able to deal with
                    the questions and doubt that would ensue.
                    Thus, we have censorship which is a negative
                    effect caused by Klemp's negative (lower
                    KAL plane) fears and deceit!

                    Prometheus

                    etznab wrote:
                    [....] Even in some of the temples people employed
                    inventions for the manifestation of apparent miracles.
                    What they got in return were donations. Of course,
                    they didn't tell people the real source of the miracles.
                    Otherwise donations might become less. [....]"

                    Something from the description of the movie I saw
                    where it documented various forms of deception that
                    were employed to make miracles appear to happen
                    using different forms of technology. This is where it
                    appears that science was used to promote ideas of
                    miracle-working gods existing behind the scenes. It
                    was a perversion of not only religion, but of science
                    as well. In my opinion:

                    "Set firmly at the intersection of religion, science
                    and commerce, the latest episode of ANCIENT
                    DISCOVERIES travels to Rome and Greece to
                    explore the commissioning, fabrication and pre-
                    sentation of marvels meant to instill awe and draw
                    hordes of deep-pocketed devotees. You will be
                    amazed to learn how the greatest minds of the age
                    were turned to the construction of what were little
                    more than parlor tricks, albeit enormously sophist-
                    icated and impressive ones."

                    http://shop.history.com/detail.php?p=69989&amp;ecid=SEO-0000046&pa=SEO-SSP

                    I believe that program appeared on the History
                    Channel some time back.

                    Add to this the fact people have fabricated even
                    ancient artifacts to frauduently propagate church
                    history, have told stories that were mythological
                    and / or symbolic - but accepted as literal truth,
                    used teachings and quotes from the past which
                    were fragmentary, little understood, and / or in a
                    language nobody today completely understands,
                    etc., and I see ample reason to be skeptical. To
                    investigate, examine and even question "outer"
                    forms of teachings - from science to religion.

                    Today it appears ironic how religion and science
                    are apparently divided, when many have argued
                    it was not always the case. Col. James Church-
                    ward speaking about "religion" in Lemuria gives
                    an opinion that religion was described in terms
                    a child could understand. Also, that religion and
                    science were not two separate things in the very
                    beginning. In fact, it is my belief, religion was
                    described in "scientific" terms then because the
                    people knew how both were connected.

                    So, when science today is used to investigate,
                    examine and, in some cases expose religious
                    fraud I think it helps to remember how science
                    was not always the record of ignorance about
                    how things work that is in existence today.

                    And, in my opinion, some people from earlier
                    times may have been much more advanced,
                    not less advanced (generally), compared with
                    people living today. Looking at remains of the
                    past through a modern (ignorant of the past)
                    lens and portraying them as less civilized,
                    less knowledgeable and less wise is (IMO) a
                    major insult to history. I'm talking particularly
                    about the ancient and far ancient past. Times
                    when monuments were constructed and tech-
                    nology existed that people today are still try-
                    ing to fathom.

                    Wasn't the far ancient past like some kind of
                    "Golden Age" anyway? Compared to today?
                    Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
                    truth escape us? How might that have happ-
                    ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
                    in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
                    was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
                    untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
                    fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
                    ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
                    blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
                    as literally true.

                    Etznab
                  • prometheus_973
                    Hello All, FIRST- Let s move on from the ECK chela nut/fanatic that s been sending out negative emails to ESA site members. We all know that as above, so
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jan 6, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hello All,
                      FIRST- Let's move on from the ECK
                      chela nut/fanatic that's been sending
                      out negative emails to ESA site members.
                      We all know that "as above, so below"
                      is a direct factor and cause of his imbalance.

                      ******
                      You're right Etznab! Klemp has said that,
                      "Jupiter was the 'Mahanta Consciousness'
                      as it appeared to the Romans," or "as it
                      appears" to EKists via the LEM!

                      BTW- The term you were probably looking for
                      is: "Adi-Mahanta. The primordial Mahanta. The
                      line of Mastership begun with RAMA, the first
                      world Savior, which has been handed down through
                      the centuries by the ECK Masters via Oral Secret
                      Teachings to those who were Initiated into the
                      Order of the Vairagi." (EK Lexicon, 1998, pg. 3)

                      This is interesting because this same "Rama"
                      is an Indian God who HK claims "brought the
                      ECK to India and later to the Aryans, the Fifth
                      Root Race." So, the First Mahanta only came
                      on-the-scene during the time of the Fifth Root
                      Race. And, this title and Consciousness was created
                      by the Vairagi Masters and not by Sugmad directly
                      (pg.172).

                      Now, if someone were to look up "Aryans" in
                      HK's 1998 EK Lexicon they would see that this
                      is the current ruling race. BTW- "RAMA" was not
                      listed as being a Mahanta in the EK Lexicon...
                      only a LEM. Why wouldn't Klemp list him as
                      a (Full) Mahanta? Maybe he's more detailed in
                      the new EK Lexicon and has done another
                      Tweak (reedit).

                      However, the truth is that Twitchell created
                      Eckankar's Mahanta circa Jan. 1, 1969. And,
                      "Mahanta" actually means "monastery head."
                      Marman and many other EKists know this, but
                      for Eckankar to work as a belief system one
                      has to have "faith" and toss reason aside! This
                      is how religions work... No Thinking is needed!

                      Prometheus




                      etznab wrote:

                      The words "as it appeared to" are interesting to me
                      in those definitions for "mahanta consciousness".

                      This suggests to me that the "M.C." can appear to
                      people under so many different forms. Like Jesus,
                      Krishna, Jupiter, etc.

                      Also interesting was how Krishna was described in
                      somewhat negative terms by both Julian Johnson &
                      Paul Twitchell. At other times the description is not
                      so negative.

                      In about the 1970s though, Paul appears to elaborate
                      further about "mahanta". He describes the "historical"
                      and "eternal" mahantas. I believe. There was a third
                      in the group (trinity) as well.

                      Perhaps Paul Twitchell, Darwin Gross and Harold K.
                      fit into the category of "historical" mahanta? (Right
                      along there with Jesus, Jupiter and Krishna, etc.?)

                      Of course some of those characters are composed
                      of myths and the literal history dubious and far from
                      reality in some places. IMO.

                      BTW, I see no entry for "Eternal Mahanta" and / or
                      "Historical Mahanta" in Harold Klemp & Eckankar's
                      Lexicon. I don't believe they have an entry in Paul T.
                      Eckankar dictionary either.

                      I believe the Eckankar dictionary came out in 1973
                      and after Paul Twitchell was already dead. However,
                      I believe it was in Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad (1970?) that
                      Paul elaborated on "mahanta". I will have to check
                      to see whether Darwin Gross or Harold Klemp wrote
                      about eternal, or historical mahantas and the reason
                      for illustrating them.

                      Etznab


                      prometheus wrote:
                      You make some good points Etznab.
                      I would say that the Roman God Jupiter
                      was an Astral Plane God that was created
                      by the Romans. Then again, I think that
                      all of those Gods that religions worship
                      have been created by men. Is it no wonder,
                      then, that in PT's Eckankar Dictionary
                      and in Klemp's 1998 EK Lexicon that they
                      both state that the Roman God "Jupiter
                      was the Mahanta Consciousness to the
                      Romans." Thus, by definition, the Mahanta
                      is also a 2nd Plane God and is, therefore,
                      of the Astral Plane of Consciousness which
                      is ruled by KAL (Satan, devil).

                      Prometheus

                      etznab wrote:

                      rometheus,

                      I believe the term "mahanta consciousness"
                      evolved over time according to descriptions
                      given to it via Eckankar. Like, what was it?
                      1969 before Paul mentioned "mahanta" in
                      a wisdom note and The Flute of God? The
                      fuller descriptions of L.E.M. & Mahanta did
                      not appear until the last couple years in the
                      life of Paul Twitchell when he set out to ex-
                      plain them in the Shariyat books, I believe.
                      1970-1971?

                      In some earlier books with Rebazar Tarzs
                      I don't know that the word "mahanta" was
                      even given much mention, if at all. I think
                      the term "spiritual traveler" was mentioned
                      more.

                      Also, I have to consider the appearance in
                      Paul T's early dictionary for the term, and
                      where so many people (some legendary)
                      from history were said to be the mahanta
                      consciousness as vehicle for the Sugmad
                      as it appeared to .... (in so many words),
                      etc.

                      Jesus and Krishna were both mentioned.
                      And yet, Jesus is generally understood -
                      in Eckankar history - to have been a 2nd
                      initiate only.

                      So what initiation level is the "mahanta
                      consciousness"? I couldn't tell you. All I
                      can say (at this point) is the definitions
                      have apparently evolved over the years. I
                      believe that when the teachings became
                      a religion in July 1970 that "mahanta" &
                      L.E.M. merged to become identified as
                      the same thing around that time. Since I
                      suspect Eckankar had to be defined for
                      legal purposes and one of the things they
                      ask you (IMO) is: What is the title of the
                      person in charge & who is that person?

                      This is speculation on my part. Paul did
                      mention at least 3 "levels" of Mahanta -
                      I believe - in the Shariyat. Including the
                      "Eternal Mahanta" and "Historical Maha-
                      anta". All of these merged into the head
                      of the religion and organization of Eck-
                      ankar at some point, if you ask me. It is
                      very hard for the organization to separate
                      them from the leader of Eckankar, IMO,
                      as that might suggest the physical body,
                      the vehicle and leader of Eckankar is but
                      a limited form of "highest consciousness".
                      Remember the last part for the definition
                      for Mahanta Consciousnes used to be:

                      "[....] a state of God consciousness which
                      is beyond the titles given in religions which
                      designate states of consciousness; the
                      highest of all states of consciousness."

                      [See: Paul Twitchell Dictionary]

                      It means not so much of anything to me
                      what appears beside the definition(s) for
                      "mahanta" today unless I can prove that
                      information to be true. I think Paul said &
                      wrote a lot of stuff. I also think he exagg-
                      erated in some places. Besides that I do
                      not see how a highest state of conscious-
                      ness can be identified with a human and
                      limited vehicle. I'll give you an example.
                      Suppose a leader of Eckankar has / had
                      a physical disability of some kind. Even
                      suppose a leader died. How can human
                      beings limited by the physical senses &
                      human mortality equate with a "highest
                      state of consciousness"? Or, the highest?
                      Especially one such as called "Eternal
                      Mahanta" present from the beginning of
                      time?

                      Some things (including the highest of all
                      states of consciousness) became at one
                      point identified with a single human being,
                      IMO. This is what I suspect, at least.

                      Etznab

                      prometheus wrote:
                      Hello Etznab,
                      You said, "Wasn't the far ancient past
                      like some kind of "Golden Age" anyway?
                      Compared to today?"

                      I don't think so, but it's all relevant to
                      who you are and where you are and
                      when you were there, as well as, one's
                      state of mind. Some people are experiencing
                      the "Golden Age" now while others have
                      experienced their "Golden Age" in a past
                      lifetime. It doesn't necessarily have to
                      involve the consciousness of world society...
                      only yours and from your perspective.
                      All else is illusion and a test for Soul.
                      However, the knowledge of true
                      history is an aide for us to expand our
                      current awareness and to help made
                      it better for those who come after us.

                      "Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
                      truth escape us? How might that have happ-
                      ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
                      in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
                      was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
                      untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
                      fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
                      ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
                      blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
                      as literally true."

                      One can look at different stages and timeframes
                      of any society and see where the past was
                      better, in some areas, and worse in other
                      areas.

                      Censorship has always been a control tactic
                      used by those in power and how it's used has
                      varied. ECKankar has censorship too, and most
                      H.I.s know what many of the boundaries are.
                      Why censorship is condoned is related to having
                      an "EK membership card." One has to follow
                      the rules and be a part of the herd. That's why
                      many H.I.s turn a blind-eye and deaf-ear to
                      most of it in order to have ECKankar work for
                      them as it is with any religious belief system.
                      Blind Faith, Narrow Thinking, and the constant
                      use of the Imagination are key for EK to "work."

                      And, after all, Why doesn't Klemp have PT's
                      historic book "Difficulties Of Becoming The
                      Living ECK Master" reprinted by ECKankar?
                      It's because Klemp can't handle the truth
                      that it would reveal nor be able to deal with
                      the questions and doubt that would ensue.
                      Thus, we have censorship which is a negative
                      effect caused by Klemp's negative (lower
                      KAL plane) fears and deceit!

                      Prometheus

                      etznab wrote:
                      [....] Even in some of the temples people employed
                      inventions for the manifestation of apparent miracles.
                      What they got in return were donations. Of course,
                      they didn't tell people the real source of the miracles.
                      Otherwise donations might become less. [....]"

                      Something from the description of the movie I saw
                      where it documented various forms of deception that
                      were employed to make miracles appear to happen
                      using different forms of technology. This is where it
                      appears that science was used to promote ideas of
                      miracle-working gods existing behind the scenes. It
                      was a perversion of not only religion, but of science
                      as well. In my opinion:

                      "Set firmly at the intersection of religion, science
                      and commerce, the latest episode of ANCIENT
                      DISCOVERIES travels to Rome and Greece to
                      explore the commissioning, fabrication and pre-
                      sentation of marvels meant to instill awe and draw
                      hordes of deep-pocketed devotees. You will be
                      amazed to learn how the greatest minds of the age
                      were turned to the construction of what were little
                      more than parlor tricks, albeit enormously sophist-
                      icated and impressive ones."

                      http://shop.history.com/detail.php?p=69989&amp;ecid=SEO-0000046&pa=SEO-SSP

                      I believe that program appeared on the History
                      Channel some time back.

                      Add to this the fact people have fabricated even
                      ancient artifacts to frauduently propagate church
                      history, have told stories that were mythological
                      and / or symbolic - but accepted as literal truth,
                      used teachings and quotes from the past which
                      were fragmentary, little understood, and / or in a
                      language nobody today completely understands,
                      etc., and I see ample reason to be skeptical. To
                      investigate, examine and even question "outer"
                      forms of teachings - from science to religion.

                      Today it appears ironic how religion and science
                      are apparently divided, when many have argued
                      it was not always the case. Col. James Church-
                      ward speaking about "religion" in Lemuria gives
                      an opinion that religion was described in terms
                      a child could understand. Also, that religion and
                      science were not two separate things in the very
                      beginning. In fact, it is my belief, religion was
                      described in "scientific" terms then because the
                      people knew how both were connected.

                      So, when science today is used to investigate,
                      examine and, in some cases expose religious
                      fraud I think it helps to remember how science
                      was not always the record of ignorance about
                      how things work that is in existence today.

                      And, in my opinion, some people from earlier
                      times may have been much more advanced,
                      not less advanced (generally), compared with
                      people living today. Looking at remains of the
                      past through a modern (ignorant of the past)
                      lens and portraying them as less civilized,
                      less knowledgeable and less wise is (IMO) a
                      major insult to history. I'm talking particularly
                      about the ancient and far ancient past. Times
                      when monuments were constructed and tech-
                      nology existed that people today are still try-
                      ing to fathom.

                      Wasn't the far ancient past like some kind of
                      "Golden Age" anyway? Compared to today?
                      Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
                      truth escape us? How might that have happ-
                      ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
                      in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
                      was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
                      untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
                      fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
                      ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
                      blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
                      as literally true.

                      Etznab
                    • prometheus_973
                      Hello All, This is simply more proof of Eckankar s deceptions. It s come to my attention that Klemp is still using a 10-15 old photo as his Official Photo
                      Message 10 of 21 , Nov 3, 2011
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hello All,
                        This is simply more proof
                        of Eckankar's deceptions.

                        It's come to my attention
                        that Klemp is still using
                        a 10-15 old photo as his
                        "Official Photo" which is
                        to be displayed at ECK
                        functions and EK Centers.

                        WHY? Really, why is this
                        being done?

                        Isn't Klemp comfortable
                        with his aging?

                        On the front page of the
                        September, 2011 "The
                        Mystic World of ECKankar"
                        is a current photo of Klemp.

                        However, if one looks at
                        the back page where "The
                        Wisdom Notes" are given
                        there is the older "Official
                        Photo" depicting a younger
                        looking Klemp.

                        Is the real and present day
                        photo depicting the Outer
                        LEM while the "Official (past)
                        Photo" depicting the Inner
                        Master/Mahanta? Is that
                        Klemp's rationale for this
                        subliminal trickery?

                        Really, I don't think that this
                        issue has ever been addressed
                        since ECKists aren't permitted
                        to ask such questions without
                        risking reprisals by their RESAs
                        or via the ESC (Klemp).

                        But, in Eckankar, what is reality?
                        Is it anything one wants to deny
                        and imagine differently as you
                        like it?

                        This photo switch is simply
                        another trick that Klemp uses
                        to cloud the minds and reasoning
                        abilities of his followers so they
                        can feel good about their religion
                        of pretend Masters, Initiations,
                        and Planes of Consciousness.

                        This denial of the obvious is
                        why ECKists are comfortable
                        and passive sheep and/or are
                        chickens in the EK hen house.
                        However, on the other hand,
                        ECKists are stressed out as
                        well.

                        ECKists must be Vahanas/
                        Missionary's and give Service
                        to Klemp (and Lip Service to
                        the public) in order to advance
                        and/or to maintain their status
                        as official spokespersons.

                        The Lip Service is when they
                        give the "official" presentations
                        which omit facts with the guise
                        of being "too much spiritual
                        food" for the seeker to handle.

                        Come on, just tell them how
                        long it will probably take them
                        to become free of Karma or
                        reach the 5th initiation! And,
                        how many more years (and
                        what's required) it should
                        take them to reach the 7th
                        initiation. Then tell them
                        how long it will be for them
                        to reach the 8th initiation...
                        maybe the RESA would know
                        that answer. LOL!

                        Prometheus



                        From Dec, 2009:
                        Isn't it strange that a "spiritual
                        master" (a Mahanta) would still
                        be using an outdated photo.
                        This shows that Klemp is attached
                        to KAL's lower plane influences.
                        This is more proof that HK has
                        fallen from SUGMAD's Grace (not
                        that he ever had it). Still, for some
                        ECKists Klemp's youthful appearance
                        attachment must be confusing.
                        Others simply turn a Blind Eye
                        to it all... they like the public
                        seeing the younger looking photo.
                        It's less embarrassing than the
                        real thing. H.I.s, especially, live
                        in a state of denial because it's
                        comfortable and convenient
                        and EK Membership has become
                        habitual and ego driven.

                        {Note: Annual EK Membership
                        is actually required in order to
                        receive and keep initiations. The
                        reenrolling of one's membership
                        must become habitual or risk
                        losing the fake connection with
                        the Inner via the outer monetary
                        membership requirement. Thus,
                        EK membership is ego, as well as,
                        fear driven.}

                        Prometheus
                      • Diana Stanley
                        maybe he should try botox or a face lift. It would be a miricale that he got his youth back! Diana
                        Message 11 of 21 , Nov 4, 2011
                        • 0 Attachment
                          maybe he should try botox or a face lift. It would be a miricale that he got his youth back!
                          Diana

                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hello All,
                          > This is simply more proof
                          > of Eckankar's deceptions.
                          >
                          > It's come to my attention
                          > that Klemp is still using
                          > a 10-15 old photo as his
                          > "Official Photo" which is
                          > to be displayed at ECK
                          > functions and EK Centers.
                          >
                          > WHY? Really, why is this
                          > being done?
                          >
                          > Isn't Klemp comfortable
                          > with his aging?
                          >
                          > On the front page of the
                          > September, 2011 "The
                          > Mystic World of ECKankar"
                          > is a current photo of Klemp.
                          >
                          > However, if one looks at
                          > the back page where "The
                          > Wisdom Notes" are given
                          > there is the older "Official
                          > Photo" depicting a younger
                          > looking Klemp.
                          >
                          > Is the real and present day
                          > photo depicting the Outer
                          > LEM while the "Official (past)
                          > Photo" depicting the Inner
                          > Master/Mahanta? Is that
                          > Klemp's rationale for this
                          > subliminal trickery?
                          >
                          > Really, I don't think that this
                          > issue has ever been addressed
                          > since ECKists aren't permitted
                          > to ask such questions without
                          > risking reprisals by their RESAs
                          > or via the ESC (Klemp).
                          >
                          > But, in Eckankar, what is reality?
                          > Is it anything one wants to deny
                          > and imagine differently as you
                          > like it?
                          >
                          > This photo switch is simply
                          > another trick that Klemp uses
                          > to cloud the minds and reasoning
                          > abilities of his followers so they
                          > can feel good about their religion
                          > of pretend Masters, Initiations,
                          > and Planes of Consciousness.
                          >
                          > This denial of the obvious is
                          > why ECKists are comfortable
                          > and passive sheep and/or are
                          > chickens in the EK hen house.
                          > However, on the other hand,
                          > ECKists are stressed out as
                          > well.
                          >
                          > ECKists must be Vahanas/
                          > Missionary's and give Service
                          > to Klemp (and Lip Service to
                          > the public) in order to advance
                          > and/or to maintain their status
                          > as official spokespersons.
                          >
                          > The Lip Service is when they
                          > give the "official" presentations
                          > which omit facts with the guise
                          > of being "too much spiritual
                          > food" for the seeker to handle.
                          >
                          > Come on, just tell them how
                          > long it will probably take them
                          > to become free of Karma or
                          > reach the 5th initiation! And,
                          > how many more years (and
                          > what's required) it should
                          > take them to reach the 7th
                          > initiation. Then tell them
                          > how long it will be for them
                          > to reach the 8th initiation...
                          > maybe the RESA would know
                          > that answer. LOL!
                          >
                          > Prometheus
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > From Dec, 2009:
                          > Isn't it strange that a "spiritual
                          > master" (a Mahanta) would still
                          > be using an outdated photo.
                          > This shows that Klemp is attached
                          > to KAL's lower plane influences.
                          > This is more proof that HK has
                          > fallen from SUGMAD's Grace (not
                          > that he ever had it). Still, for some
                          > ECKists Klemp's youthful appearance
                          > attachment must be confusing.
                          > Others simply turn a Blind Eye
                          > to it all... they like the public
                          > seeing the younger looking photo.
                          > It's less embarrassing than the
                          > real thing. H.I.s, especially, live
                          > in a state of denial because it's
                          > comfortable and convenient
                          > and EK Membership has become
                          > habitual and ego driven.
                          >
                          > {Note: Annual EK Membership
                          > is actually required in order to
                          > receive and keep initiations. The
                          > reenrolling of one's membership
                          > must become habitual or risk
                          > losing the fake connection with
                          > the Inner via the outer monetary
                          > membership requirement. Thus,
                          > EK membership is ego, as well as,
                          > fear driven.}
                          >
                          > Prometheus
                          >
                        • prometheus_973
                          Hello Diana and All, At one time Klemp tried contact lens but eventually switched back to glasses. I m told he received some criticism, from H.I.s via chelas,
                          Message 12 of 21 , Nov 4, 2011
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hello Diana and All,
                            At one time Klemp tried
                            contact lens but eventually
                            switched back to glasses.
                            I'm told he received some
                            criticism, from H.I.s via
                            chelas, that contacts were
                            more of a vanity issue than
                            a sight/vision issue. ECKists
                            can't have their mealy looking
                            Mahanta project a fraudulent
                            appearance because that
                            would indicate other frauds
                            might be taking place and
                            perpetuated. LOL!

                            However, I've also read that
                            contacts can offer people
                            better vision than glasses,
                            but maybe that was just
                            a slanted PR story to sell
                            a product like Eckankar
                            does.

                            I'm assuming that this is
                            why Klemp won't dye his
                            hair or get hair plugs. I
                            wonder what else Klemp
                            does, or doesn't do, that
                            is natural? Boxers, briefs,
                            or commando?

                            Prometheus

                            dianastanley wrote:
                            maybe he should try botox
                            or a face lift. It would be
                            a miricale that he got his
                            youth back!
                            Diana


                            <prometheus wrote:
                            >
                            > Hello All,
                            > This is simply more proof
                            > of Eckankar's deceptions.
                            >
                            > It's come to my attention
                            > that Klemp is still using
                            > a 10-15 old photo as his
                            > "Official Photo" which is
                            > to be displayed at ECK
                            > functions and EK Centers.
                            >
                            > WHY? Really, why is this
                            > being done?
                            >
                            > Isn't Klemp comfortable
                            > with his aging?
                            >
                            > On the front page of the
                            > September, 2011 "The
                            > Mystic World of ECKankar"
                            > is a current photo of Klemp.
                            >
                            > However, if one looks at
                            > the back page where "The
                            > Wisdom Notes" are given
                            > there is the older "Official
                            > Photo" depicting a younger
                            > looking Klemp.
                            >
                            > Is the real and present day
                            > photo depicting the Outer
                            > LEM while the "Official (past)
                            > Photo" depicting the Inner
                            > Master/Mahanta? Is that
                            > Klemp's rationale for this
                            > subliminal trickery?
                            >
                            > Really, I don't think that this
                            > issue has ever been addressed
                            > since ECKists aren't permitted
                            > to ask such questions without
                            > risking reprisals by their RESAs
                            > or via the ESC (Klemp).
                            >
                            > But, in Eckankar, what is reality?
                            > Is it anything one wants to deny
                            > and imagine differently as you
                            > like it?
                            >
                            > This photo switch is simply
                            > another trick that Klemp uses
                            > to cloud the minds and reasoning
                            > abilities of his followers so they
                            > can feel good about their religion
                            > of pretend Masters, Initiations,
                            > and Planes of Consciousness.
                            >
                            > This denial of the obvious is
                            > why ECKists are comfortable
                            > and passive sheep and/or are
                            > chickens in the EK hen house.
                            > However, on the other hand,
                            > ECKists are stressed out as
                            > well.
                            >
                            > ECKists must be Vahanas/
                            > Missionary's and give Service
                            > to Klemp (and Lip Service to
                            > the public) in order to advance
                            > and/or to maintain their status
                            > as official spokespersons.
                            >
                            > The Lip Service is when they
                            > give the "official" presentations
                            > which omit facts with the guise
                            > of being "too much spiritual
                            > food" for the seeker to handle.
                            >
                            > Come on, just tell them how
                            > long it will probably take them
                            > to become free of Karma or
                            > reach the 5th initiation! And,
                            > how many more years (and
                            > what's required) it should
                            > take them to reach the 7th
                            > initiation. Then tell them
                            > how long it will be for them
                            > to reach the 8th initiation...
                            > maybe the RESA would know
                            > that answer. LOL!
                            >
                            > Prometheus
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > From Dec, 2009:
                            > Isn't it strange that a "spiritual
                            > master" (a Mahanta) would still
                            > be using an outdated photo.
                            > This shows that Klemp is attached
                            > to KAL's lower plane influences.
                            > This is more proof that HK has
                            > fallen from SUGMAD's Grace (not
                            > that he ever had it). Still, for some
                            > ECKists Klemp's youthful appearance
                            > attachment must be confusing.
                            > Others simply turn a Blind Eye
                            > to it all... they like the public
                            > seeing the younger looking photo.
                            > It's less embarrassing than the
                            > real thing. H.I.s, especially, live
                            > in a state of denial because it's
                            > comfortable and convenient
                            > and EK Membership has become
                            > habitual and ego driven.
                            >
                            > {Note: Annual EK Membership
                            > is actually required in order to
                            > receive and keep initiations. The
                            > reenrolling of one's membership
                            > must become habitual or risk
                            > losing the fake connection with
                            > the Inner via the outer monetary
                            > membership requirement. Thus,
                            > EK membership is ego, as well as,
                            > fear driven.}
                            >
                            > Prometheus
                          • Diana Stanley
                            I don t understand why he cares what he looks like he never hardly ever makes public appearences. Maybe he has a double to do all public pr work!!! Diana
                            Message 13 of 21 , Nov 6, 2011
                            • 0 Attachment
                              I don't understand why he cares what he looks like he never hardly ever makes public appearences. Maybe he has a double to do all public pr work!!!
                              Diana



                              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hello Diana and All,
                              > At one time Klemp tried
                              > contact lens but eventually
                              > switched back to glasses.
                              > I'm told he received some
                              > criticism, from H.I.s via
                              > chelas, that contacts were
                              > more of a vanity issue than
                              > a sight/vision issue. ECKists
                              > can't have their mealy looking
                              > Mahanta project a fraudulent
                              > appearance because that
                              > would indicate other frauds
                              > might be taking place and
                              > perpetuated. LOL!
                              >
                              > However, I've also read that
                              > contacts can offer people
                              > better vision than glasses,
                              > but maybe that was just
                              > a slanted PR story to sell
                              > a product like Eckankar
                              > does.
                              >
                              > I'm assuming that this is
                              > why Klemp won't dye his
                              > hair or get hair plugs. I
                              > wonder what else Klemp
                              > does, or doesn't do, that
                              > is natural? Boxers, briefs,
                              > or commando?
                              >
                              > Prometheus
                              >
                              > dianastanley wrote:
                              > maybe he should try botox
                              > or a face lift. It would be
                              > a miricale that he got his
                              > youth back!
                              > Diana
                              >
                              >
                              > <prometheus wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Hello All,
                              > > This is simply more proof
                              > > of Eckankar's deceptions.
                              > >
                              > > It's come to my attention
                              > > that Klemp is still using
                              > > a 10-15 old photo as his
                              > > "Official Photo" which is
                              > > to be displayed at ECK
                              > > functions and EK Centers.
                              > >
                              > > WHY? Really, why is this
                              > > being done?
                              > >
                              > > Isn't Klemp comfortable
                              > > with his aging?
                              > >
                              > > On the front page of the
                              > > September, 2011 "The
                              > > Mystic World of ECKankar"
                              > > is a current photo of Klemp.
                              > >
                              > > However, if one looks at
                              > > the back page where "The
                              > > Wisdom Notes" are given
                              > > there is the older "Official
                              > > Photo" depicting a younger
                              > > looking Klemp.
                              > >
                              > > Is the real and present day
                              > > photo depicting the Outer
                              > > LEM while the "Official (past)
                              > > Photo" depicting the Inner
                              > > Master/Mahanta? Is that
                              > > Klemp's rationale for this
                              > > subliminal trickery?
                              > >
                              > > Really, I don't think that this
                              > > issue has ever been addressed
                              > > since ECKists aren't permitted
                              > > to ask such questions without
                              > > risking reprisals by their RESAs
                              > > or via the ESC (Klemp).
                              > >
                              > > But, in Eckankar, what is reality?
                              > > Is it anything one wants to deny
                              > > and imagine differently as you
                              > > like it?
                              > >
                              > > This photo switch is simply
                              > > another trick that Klemp uses
                              > > to cloud the minds and reasoning
                              > > abilities of his followers so they
                              > > can feel good about their religion
                              > > of pretend Masters, Initiations,
                              > > and Planes of Consciousness.
                              > >
                              > > This denial of the obvious is
                              > > why ECKists are comfortable
                              > > and passive sheep and/or are
                              > > chickens in the EK hen house.
                              > > However, on the other hand,
                              > > ECKists are stressed out as
                              > > well.
                              > >
                              > > ECKists must be Vahanas/
                              > > Missionary's and give Service
                              > > to Klemp (and Lip Service to
                              > > the public) in order to advance
                              > > and/or to maintain their status
                              > > as official spokespersons.
                              > >
                              > > The Lip Service is when they
                              > > give the "official" presentations
                              > > which omit facts with the guise
                              > > of being "too much spiritual
                              > > food" for the seeker to handle.
                              > >
                              > > Come on, just tell them how
                              > > long it will probably take them
                              > > to become free of Karma or
                              > > reach the 5th initiation! And,
                              > > how many more years (and
                              > > what's required) it should
                              > > take them to reach the 7th
                              > > initiation. Then tell them
                              > > how long it will be for them
                              > > to reach the 8th initiation...
                              > > maybe the RESA would know
                              > > that answer. LOL!
                              > >
                              > > Prometheus
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > From Dec, 2009:
                              > > Isn't it strange that a "spiritual
                              > > master" (a Mahanta) would still
                              > > be using an outdated photo.
                              > > This shows that Klemp is attached
                              > > to KAL's lower plane influences.
                              > > This is more proof that HK has
                              > > fallen from SUGMAD's Grace (not
                              > > that he ever had it). Still, for some
                              > > ECKists Klemp's youthful appearance
                              > > attachment must be confusing.
                              > > Others simply turn a Blind Eye
                              > > to it all... they like the public
                              > > seeing the younger looking photo.
                              > > It's less embarrassing than the
                              > > real thing. H.I.s, especially, live
                              > > in a state of denial because it's
                              > > comfortable and convenient
                              > > and EK Membership has become
                              > > habitual and ego driven.
                              > >
                              > > {Note: Annual EK Membership
                              > > is actually required in order to
                              > > receive and keep initiations. The
                              > > reenrolling of one's membership
                              > > must become habitual or risk
                              > > losing the fake connection with
                              > > the Inner via the outer monetary
                              > > membership requirement. Thus,
                              > > EK membership is ego, as well as,
                              > > fear driven.}
                              > >
                              > > Prometheus
                              >
                            • prometheus_973
                              Hello Diana and All, Klemp cares about the more youthful image he s projecting in the PR brochures and his official pic displayed in EK Centers and at Intros
                              Message 14 of 21 , Nov 7, 2011
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Hello Diana and All,
                                Klemp cares about
                                the more youthful
                                image he's projecting
                                in the PR brochures
                                and his official pic
                                displayed in EK Centers
                                and at Intros because
                                it appeals to younger
                                people more than his
                                old real life image does!

                                Thus, more suckers
                                are attracted to the
                                bait and switch packaging
                                versus the reality which
                                would repel them. LOL!

                                At a Seminar (after
                                seeing Klemp) they
                                simply decide to stay
                                until he gets done talking.
                                Klemp was never too
                                photogenic anyway but
                                now he's really getting
                                pathetic looking... as
                                a Mahanta/God!

                                Really, how can Eckists
                                believe in or talk about
                                the ECK Masters like
                                Rebazar, who are
                                supposedly over 500
                                years old and still maintain
                                a physical body, when
                                Klemp claims to be the
                                greatest and most spiritually
                                advanced Mahanta ever!
                                Yet, he's wasting away!
                                It doesn't make sense if
                                it was true! The truth is
                                there are No ECK Masters
                                and Klemp is a phony!

                                Pretend can be fun and
                                the imagination can make
                                the mundane magical,
                                it's an escape, and it can
                                be used (as lies) to explain
                                things in mythological and
                                unscientific terms because
                                science can't explain it
                                away with concrete analysis
                                and proven facts. Besides,
                                would most people listen?
                                Therefore, the ECK Masters
                                are as imagined as the
                                characters in Harry Potter,
                                or the Lord of the Rings,
                                et al.

                                Thus, if Eckankar was for
                                real Klemp wouldn't be
                                aging and rapidly! He'd
                                look like Rebazar or one
                                of the other portraits of
                                those fake ECK Masters.

                                Funny that the artist who
                                did the latest ECK Master
                                portraits made them look
                                younger than Klemp's real-
                                time current photo (not the
                                embellished portrait)! Just
                                go the eckankar.org and
                                see for yourself! It's comical!

                                Prometheus


                                dianastanley wrote:
                                I don't understand why
                                he cares what he looks
                                like he never hardly ever
                                makes public appearences.
                                Maybe he has a double
                                to do all public pr work!!!
                                Diana




                                <prometheus wrote:
                                >
                                > Hello Diana and All,
                                > At one time Klemp tried
                                > contact lens but eventually
                                > switched back to glasses.
                                > I'm told he received some
                                > criticism, from H.I.s via
                                > chelas, that contacts were
                                > more of a vanity issue than
                                > a sight/vision issue. ECKists
                                > can't have their mealy looking
                                > Mahanta project a fraudulent
                                > appearance because that
                                > would indicate other frauds
                                > might be taking place and
                                > perpetuated. LOL!
                                >
                                > However, I've also read that
                                > contacts can offer people
                                > better vision than glasses,
                                > but maybe that was just
                                > a slanted PR story to sell
                                > a product like Eckankar
                                > does.
                                >
                                > I'm assuming that this is
                                > why Klemp won't dye his
                                > hair or get hair plugs. I
                                > wonder what else Klemp
                                > does, or doesn't do, that
                                > is natural? Boxers, briefs,
                                > or commando?
                                >
                                > Prometheus
                                >
                                > dianastanley wrote:
                                > maybe he should try botox
                                > or a face lift. It would be
                                > a miricale that he got his
                                > youth back!
                                > Diana
                                >
                                >
                                > <prometheus wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Hello All,
                                > > This is simply more proof
                                > > of Eckankar's deceptions.
                                > >
                                > > It's come to my attention
                                > > that Klemp is still using
                                > > a 10-15 old photo as his
                                > > "Official Photo" which is
                                > > to be displayed at ECK
                                > > functions and EK Centers.
                                > >
                                > > WHY? Really, why is this
                                > > being done?
                                > >
                                > > Isn't Klemp comfortable
                                > > with his aging?
                                > >
                                > > On the front page of the
                                > > September, 2011 "The
                                > > Mystic World of ECKankar"
                                > > is a current photo of Klemp.
                                > >
                                > > However, if one looks at
                                > > the back page where "The
                                > > Wisdom Notes" are given
                                > > there is the older "Official
                                > > Photo" depicting a younger
                                > > looking Klemp.
                                > >
                                > > Is the real and present day
                                > > photo depicting the Outer
                                > > LEM while the "Official (past)
                                > > Photo" depicting the Inner
                                > > Master/Mahanta? Is that
                                > > Klemp's rationale for this
                                > > subliminal trickery?
                                > >
                                > > Really, I don't think that this
                                > > issue has ever been addressed
                                > > since ECKists aren't permitted
                                > > to ask such questions without
                                > > risking reprisals by their RESAs
                                > > or via the ESC (Klemp).
                                > >
                                > > But, in Eckankar, what is reality?
                                > > Is it anything one wants to deny
                                > > and imagine differently as you
                                > > like it?
                                > >
                                > > This photo switch is simply
                                > > another trick that Klemp uses
                                > > to cloud the minds and reasoning
                                > > abilities of his followers so they
                                > > can feel good about their religion
                                > > of pretend Masters, Initiations,
                                > > and Planes of Consciousness.
                                > >
                                > > This denial of the obvious is
                                > > why ECKists are comfortable
                                > > and passive sheep and/or are
                                > > chickens in the EK hen house.
                                > > However, on the other hand,
                                > > ECKists are stressed out as
                                > > well.
                                > >
                                > > ECKists must be Vahanas/
                                > > Missionary's and give Service
                                > > to Klemp (and Lip Service to
                                > > the public) in order to advance
                                > > and/or to maintain their status
                                > > as official spokespersons.
                                > >
                                > > The Lip Service is when they
                                > > give the "official" presentations
                                > > which omit facts with the guise
                                > > of being "too much spiritual
                                > > food" for the seeker to handle.
                                > >
                                > > Come on, just tell them how
                                > > long it will probably take them
                                > > to become free of Karma or
                                > > reach the 5th initiation! And,
                                > > how many more years (and
                                > > what's required) it should
                                > > take them to reach the 7th
                                > > initiation. Then tell them
                                > > how long it will be for them
                                > > to reach the 8th initiation...
                                > > maybe the RESA would know
                                > > that answer. LOL!
                                > >
                                > > Prometheus
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > From Dec, 2009:
                                > > Isn't it strange that a "spiritual
                                > > master" (a Mahanta) would still
                                > > be using an outdated photo.
                                > > This shows that Klemp is attached
                                > > to KAL's lower plane influences.
                                > > This is more proof that HK has
                                > > fallen from SUGMAD's Grace (not
                                > > that he ever had it). Still, for some
                                > > ECKists Klemp's youthful appearance
                                > > attachment must be confusing.
                                > > Others simply turn a Blind Eye
                                > > to it all... they like the public
                                > > seeing the younger looking photo.
                                > > It's less embarrassing than the
                                > > real thing. H.I.s, especially, live
                                > > in a state of denial because it's
                                > > comfortable and convenient
                                > > and EK Membership has become
                                > > habitual and ego driven.
                                > >
                                > > {Note: Annual EK Membership
                                > > is actually required in order to
                                > > receive and keep initiations. The
                                > > reenrolling of one's membership
                                > > must become habitual or risk
                                > > losing the fake connection with
                                > > the Inner via the outer monetary
                                > > membership requirement. Thus,
                                > > EK membership is ego, as well as,
                                > > fear driven.}
                                > >
                                > > Prometheus
                              • Diana Stanley
                                Eckankar is being reduced to sillyness. People who are trully seeking spiritual enlightenment will begin to leave. Those that are comfortable with authority
                                Message 15 of 21 , Nov 9, 2011
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Eckankar is being reduced to sillyness. People who are trully seeking spiritual enlightenment will begin to leave. Those that are comfortable with authority and rules and regulations will hang on.
                                  Much like the old churches some people feel safe if they are told how to get to heven and avoid hell.
                                  I imagin Harold is trying to incorporate the Eck teachings with christian beliefs as that is Harolds background.
                                  I am afraid it is a marrage that is doomed to failure. Hopefully sooner than later.
                                  Diana

                                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hello Diana and All,
                                  > Klemp cares about
                                  > the more youthful
                                  > image he's projecting
                                  > in the PR brochures
                                  > and his official pic
                                  > displayed in EK Centers
                                  > and at Intros because
                                  > it appeals to younger
                                  > people more than his
                                  > old real life image does!
                                  >
                                  > Thus, more suckers
                                  > are attracted to the
                                  > bait and switch packaging
                                  > versus the reality which
                                  > would repel them. LOL!
                                  >
                                  > At a Seminar (after
                                  > seeing Klemp) they
                                  > simply decide to stay
                                  > until he gets done talking.
                                  > Klemp was never too
                                  > photogenic anyway but
                                  > now he's really getting
                                  > pathetic looking... as
                                  > a Mahanta/God!
                                  >
                                  > Really, how can Eckists
                                  > believe in or talk about
                                  > the ECK Masters like
                                  > Rebazar, who are
                                  > supposedly over 500
                                  > years old and still maintain
                                  > a physical body, when
                                  > Klemp claims to be the
                                  > greatest and most spiritually
                                  > advanced Mahanta ever!
                                  > Yet, he's wasting away!
                                  > It doesn't make sense if
                                  > it was true! The truth is
                                  > there are No ECK Masters
                                  > and Klemp is a phony!
                                  >
                                  > Pretend can be fun and
                                  > the imagination can make
                                  > the mundane magical,
                                  > it's an escape, and it can
                                  > be used (as lies) to explain
                                  > things in mythological and
                                  > unscientific terms because
                                  > science can't explain it
                                  > away with concrete analysis
                                  > and proven facts. Besides,
                                  > would most people listen?
                                  > Therefore, the ECK Masters
                                  > are as imagined as the
                                  > characters in Harry Potter,
                                  > or the Lord of the Rings,
                                  > et al.
                                  >
                                  > Thus, if Eckankar was for
                                  > real Klemp wouldn't be
                                  > aging and rapidly! He'd
                                  > look like Rebazar or one
                                  > of the other portraits of
                                  > those fake ECK Masters.
                                  >
                                  > Funny that the artist who
                                  > did the latest ECK Master
                                  > portraits made them look
                                  > younger than Klemp's real-
                                  > time current photo (not the
                                  > embellished portrait)! Just
                                  > go the eckankar.org and
                                  > see for yourself! It's comical!
                                  >
                                  > Prometheus
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > dianastanley wrote:
                                  > I don't understand why
                                  > he cares what he looks
                                  > like he never hardly ever
                                  > makes public appearences.
                                  > Maybe he has a double
                                  > to do all public pr work!!!
                                  > Diana
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > <prometheus wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Hello Diana and All,
                                  > > At one time Klemp tried
                                  > > contact lens but eventually
                                  > > switched back to glasses.
                                  > > I'm told he received some
                                  > > criticism, from H.I.s via
                                  > > chelas, that contacts were
                                  > > more of a vanity issue than
                                  > > a sight/vision issue. ECKists
                                  > > can't have their mealy looking
                                  > > Mahanta project a fraudulent
                                  > > appearance because that
                                  > > would indicate other frauds
                                  > > might be taking place and
                                  > > perpetuated. LOL!
                                  > >
                                  > > However, I've also read that
                                  > > contacts can offer people
                                  > > better vision than glasses,
                                  > > but maybe that was just
                                  > > a slanted PR story to sell
                                  > > a product like Eckankar
                                  > > does.
                                  > >
                                  > > I'm assuming that this is
                                  > > why Klemp won't dye his
                                  > > hair or get hair plugs. I
                                  > > wonder what else Klemp
                                  > > does, or doesn't do, that
                                  > > is natural? Boxers, briefs,
                                  > > or commando?
                                  > >
                                  > > Prometheus
                                  > >
                                  > > dianastanley wrote:
                                  > > maybe he should try botox
                                  > > or a face lift. It would be
                                  > > a miricale that he got his
                                  > > youth back!
                                  > > Diana
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > <prometheus wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Hello All,
                                  > > > This is simply more proof
                                  > > > of Eckankar's deceptions.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > It's come to my attention
                                  > > > that Klemp is still using
                                  > > > a 10-15 old photo as his
                                  > > > "Official Photo" which is
                                  > > > to be displayed at ECK
                                  > > > functions and EK Centers.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > WHY? Really, why is this
                                  > > > being done?
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Isn't Klemp comfortable
                                  > > > with his aging?
                                  > > >
                                  > > > On the front page of the
                                  > > > September, 2011 "The
                                  > > > Mystic World of ECKankar"
                                  > > > is a current photo of Klemp.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > However, if one looks at
                                  > > > the back page where "The
                                  > > > Wisdom Notes" are given
                                  > > > there is the older "Official
                                  > > > Photo" depicting a younger
                                  > > > looking Klemp.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Is the real and present day
                                  > > > photo depicting the Outer
                                  > > > LEM while the "Official (past)
                                  > > > Photo" depicting the Inner
                                  > > > Master/Mahanta? Is that
                                  > > > Klemp's rationale for this
                                  > > > subliminal trickery?
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Really, I don't think that this
                                  > > > issue has ever been addressed
                                  > > > since ECKists aren't permitted
                                  > > > to ask such questions without
                                  > > > risking reprisals by their RESAs
                                  > > > or via the ESC (Klemp).
                                  > > >
                                  > > > But, in Eckankar, what is reality?
                                  > > > Is it anything one wants to deny
                                  > > > and imagine differently as you
                                  > > > like it?
                                  > > >
                                  > > > This photo switch is simply
                                  > > > another trick that Klemp uses
                                  > > > to cloud the minds and reasoning
                                  > > > abilities of his followers so they
                                  > > > can feel good about their religion
                                  > > > of pretend Masters, Initiations,
                                  > > > and Planes of Consciousness.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > This denial of the obvious is
                                  > > > why ECKists are comfortable
                                  > > > and passive sheep and/or are
                                  > > > chickens in the EK hen house.
                                  > > > However, on the other hand,
                                  > > > ECKists are stressed out as
                                  > > > well.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > ECKists must be Vahanas/
                                  > > > Missionary's and give Service
                                  > > > to Klemp (and Lip Service to
                                  > > > the public) in order to advance
                                  > > > and/or to maintain their status
                                  > > > as official spokespersons.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > The Lip Service is when they
                                  > > > give the "official" presentations
                                  > > > which omit facts with the guise
                                  > > > of being "too much spiritual
                                  > > > food" for the seeker to handle.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Come on, just tell them how
                                  > > > long it will probably take them
                                  > > > to become free of Karma or
                                  > > > reach the 5th initiation! And,
                                  > > > how many more years (and
                                  > > > what's required) it should
                                  > > > take them to reach the 7th
                                  > > > initiation. Then tell them
                                  > > > how long it will be for them
                                  > > > to reach the 8th initiation...
                                  > > > maybe the RESA would know
                                  > > > that answer. LOL!
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Prometheus
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > From Dec, 2009:
                                  > > > Isn't it strange that a "spiritual
                                  > > > master" (a Mahanta) would still
                                  > > > be using an outdated photo.
                                  > > > This shows that Klemp is attached
                                  > > > to KAL's lower plane influences.
                                  > > > This is more proof that HK has
                                  > > > fallen from SUGMAD's Grace (not
                                  > > > that he ever had it). Still, for some
                                  > > > ECKists Klemp's youthful appearance
                                  > > > attachment must be confusing.
                                  > > > Others simply turn a Blind Eye
                                  > > > to it all... they like the public
                                  > > > seeing the younger looking photo.
                                  > > > It's less embarrassing than the
                                  > > > real thing. H.I.s, especially, live
                                  > > > in a state of denial because it's
                                  > > > comfortable and convenient
                                  > > > and EK Membership has become
                                  > > > habitual and ego driven.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > {Note: Annual EK Membership
                                  > > > is actually required in order to
                                  > > > receive and keep initiations. The
                                  > > > reenrolling of one's membership
                                  > > > must become habitual or risk
                                  > > > losing the fake connection with
                                  > > > the Inner via the outer monetary
                                  > > > membership requirement. Thus,
                                  > > > EK membership is ego, as well as,
                                  > > > fear driven.}
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Prometheus
                                  >
                                • prometheus_973
                                  Hello Diana and All, Yes, the silliness began with Twitchell. That s why Gail and Patti were always giggling about good old fuddy-duddy Paul and his conman
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Nov 9, 2011
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hello Diana and All,
                                    Yes, the silliness began
                                    with Twitchell. That's
                                    why Gail and Patti were
                                    always giggling about
                                    good old fuddy-duddy
                                    Paul and his conman
                                    antics, some, to hide
                                    his age [the joke was
                                    on them because Paul
                                    was older than they
                                    thought]. Other embellishments
                                    were used to promote
                                    himself... and yet this
                                    doesn't seem to be a
                                    problem for longtime
                                    H.I.s. When I found out
                                    about the foundation
                                    of the EK teachings and
                                    the liar Twitchell I just
                                    couldn't remain a follower.
                                    Truth means too much
                                    to me. Ask yourself,
                                    "What is Truth?"

                                    Klemp is as much the liar
                                    as Twitchell. He rationalizes
                                    it away by thinking that people
                                    need something to believe
                                    in and Eckankar gives them
                                    something that is, at least,
                                    less physically harmful to
                                    the world than many other
                                    religions. Of course, that's
                                    only because Eckankar doesn't
                                    have the members, money,
                                    and power that other religions
                                    have. Other than that it's
                                    a fraud and a waste of time.
                                    It creates delusional thinking
                                    and this inhibits clarity of
                                    mind and true, individual,
                                    "spiritual" progress.

                                    Prometheus



                                    "Diana Stanley" wrote:
                                    Eckankar is being reduced
                                    to sillyness. People who
                                    are trully seeking spiritual
                                    enlightenment will begin
                                    to leave. Those that are
                                    comfortable with authority
                                    and rules and regulations
                                    will hang on.

                                    Much like the old churches
                                    some people feel safe if
                                    they are told how to get
                                    to heven and avoid hell.
                                    I imagin Harold is trying
                                    to incorporate the Eck
                                    teachings with christian
                                    beliefs as that is Harolds
                                    background.

                                    I am afraid it is a marrage
                                    that is doomed to failure.
                                    Hopefully sooner than later.
                                    Diana


                                    <prometheus wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hello Diana and All,
                                    > Klemp cares about
                                    > the more youthful
                                    > image he's projecting
                                    > in the PR brochures
                                    > and his official pic
                                    > displayed in EK Centers
                                    > and at Intros because
                                    > it appeals to younger
                                    > people more than his
                                    > old real life image does!
                                    >
                                    > Thus, more suckers
                                    > are attracted to the
                                    > bait and switch packaging
                                    > versus the reality which
                                    > would repel them. LOL!
                                    >
                                    > At a Seminar (after
                                    > seeing Klemp) they
                                    > simply decide to stay
                                    > until he gets done talking.
                                    > Klemp was never too
                                    > photogenic anyway but
                                    > now he's really getting
                                    > pathetic looking... as
                                    > a Mahanta/God!
                                    >
                                    > Really, how can Eckists
                                    > believe in or talk about
                                    > the ECK Masters like
                                    > Rebazar, who are
                                    > supposedly over 500
                                    > years old and still maintain
                                    > a physical body, when
                                    > Klemp claims to be the
                                    > greatest and most spiritually
                                    > advanced Mahanta ever!
                                    > Yet, he's wasting away!
                                    > It doesn't make sense if
                                    > it was true! The truth is
                                    > there are No ECK Masters
                                    > and Klemp is a phony!
                                    >
                                    > Pretend can be fun and
                                    > the imagination can make
                                    > the mundane magical,
                                    > it's an escape, and it can
                                    > be used (as lies) to explain
                                    > things in mythological and
                                    > unscientific terms because
                                    > science can't explain it
                                    > away with concrete analysis
                                    > and proven facts. Besides,
                                    > would most people listen?
                                    > Therefore, the ECK Masters
                                    > are as imagined as the
                                    > characters in Harry Potter,
                                    > or the Lord of the Rings,
                                    > et al.
                                    >
                                    > Thus, if Eckankar was for
                                    > real Klemp wouldn't be
                                    > aging and rapidly! He'd
                                    > look like Rebazar or one
                                    > of the other portraits of
                                    > those fake ECK Masters.
                                    >
                                    > Funny that the artist who
                                    > did the latest ECK Master
                                    > portraits made them look
                                    > younger than Klemp's real-
                                    > time current photo (not the
                                    > embellished portrait)! Just
                                    > go the eckankar.org and
                                    > see for yourself! It's comical!
                                    >
                                    > Prometheus
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > dianastanley wrote:
                                    > I don't understand why
                                    > he cares what he looks
                                    > like he never hardly ever
                                    > makes public appearences.
                                    > Maybe he has a double
                                    > to do all public pr work!!!
                                    > Diana
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > <prometheus wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Hello Diana and All,
                                    > > At one time Klemp tried
                                    > > contact lens but eventually
                                    > > switched back to glasses.
                                    > > I'm told he received some
                                    > > criticism, from H.I.s via
                                    > > chelas, that contacts were
                                    > > more of a vanity issue than
                                    > > a sight/vision issue. ECKists
                                    > > can't have their mealy looking
                                    > > Mahanta project a fraudulent
                                    > > appearance because that
                                    > > would indicate other frauds
                                    > > might be taking place and
                                    > > perpetuated. LOL!
                                    > >
                                    > > However, I've also read that
                                    > > contacts can offer people
                                    > > better vision than glasses,
                                    > > but maybe that was just
                                    > > a slanted PR story to sell
                                    > > a product like Eckankar
                                    > > does.
                                    > >
                                    > > I'm assuming that this is
                                    > > why Klemp won't dye his
                                    > > hair or get hair plugs. I
                                    > > wonder what else Klemp
                                    > > does, or doesn't do, that
                                    > > is natural? Boxers, briefs,
                                    > > or commando?
                                    > >
                                    > > Prometheus
                                    > >
                                    > > dianastanley wrote:
                                    > > maybe he should try botox
                                    > > or a face lift. It would be
                                    > > a miricale that he got his
                                    > > youth back!
                                    > > Diana
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > <prometheus wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Hello All,
                                    > > > This is simply more proof
                                    > > > of Eckankar's deceptions.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > It's come to my attention
                                    > > > that Klemp is still using
                                    > > > a 10-15 old photo as his
                                    > > > "Official Photo" which is
                                    > > > to be displayed at ECK
                                    > > > functions and EK Centers.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > WHY? Really, why is this
                                    > > > being done?
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Isn't Klemp comfortable
                                    > > > with his aging?
                                    > > >
                                    > > > On the front page of the
                                    > > > September, 2011 "The
                                    > > > Mystic World of ECKankar"
                                    > > > is a current photo of Klemp.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > However, if one looks at
                                    > > > the back page where "The
                                    > > > Wisdom Notes" are given
                                    > > > there is the older "Official
                                    > > > Photo" depicting a younger
                                    > > > looking Klemp.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Is the real and present day
                                    > > > photo depicting the Outer
                                    > > > LEM while the "Official (past)
                                    > > > Photo" depicting the Inner
                                    > > > Master/Mahanta? Is that
                                    > > > Klemp's rationale for this
                                    > > > subliminal trickery?
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Really, I don't think that this
                                    > > > issue has ever been addressed
                                    > > > since ECKists aren't permitted
                                    > > > to ask such questions without
                                    > > > risking reprisals by their RESAs
                                    > > > or via the ESC (Klemp).
                                    > > >
                                    > > > But, in Eckankar, what is reality?
                                    > > > Is it anything one wants to deny
                                    > > > and imagine differently as you
                                    > > > like it?
                                    > > >
                                    > > > This photo switch is simply
                                    > > > another trick that Klemp uses
                                    > > > to cloud the minds and reasoning
                                    > > > abilities of his followers so they
                                    > > > can feel good about their religion
                                    > > > of pretend Masters, Initiations,
                                    > > > and Planes of Consciousness.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > This denial of the obvious is
                                    > > > why ECKists are comfortable
                                    > > > and passive sheep and/or are
                                    > > > chickens in the EK hen house.
                                    > > > However, on the other hand,
                                    > > > ECKists are stressed out as
                                    > > > well.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > ECKists must be Vahanas/
                                    > > > Missionary's and give Service
                                    > > > to Klemp (and Lip Service to
                                    > > > the public) in order to advance
                                    > > > and/or to maintain their status
                                    > > > as official spokespersons.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > The Lip Service is when they
                                    > > > give the "official" presentations
                                    > > > which omit facts with the guise
                                    > > > of being "too much spiritual
                                    > > > food" for the seeker to handle.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Come on, just tell them how
                                    > > > long it will probably take them
                                    > > > to become free of Karma or
                                    > > > reach the 5th initiation! And,
                                    > > > how many more years (and
                                    > > > what's required) it should
                                    > > > take them to reach the 7th
                                    > > > initiation. Then tell them
                                    > > > how long it will be for them
                                    > > > to reach the 8th initiation...
                                    > > > maybe the RESA would know
                                    > > > that answer. LOL!
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Prometheus
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > From Dec, 2009:
                                    > > > Isn't it strange that a "spiritual
                                    > > > master" (a Mahanta) would still
                                    > > > be using an outdated photo.
                                    > > > This shows that Klemp is attached
                                    > > > to KAL's lower plane influences.
                                    > > > This is more proof that HK has
                                    > > > fallen from SUGMAD's Grace (not
                                    > > > that he ever had it). Still, for some
                                    > > > ECKists Klemp's youthful appearance
                                    > > > attachment must be confusing.
                                    > > > Others simply turn a Blind Eye
                                    > > > to it all... they like the public
                                    > > > seeing the younger looking photo.
                                    > > > It's less embarrassing than the
                                    > > > real thing. H.I.s, especially, live
                                    > > > in a state of denial because it's
                                    > > > comfortable and convenient
                                    > > > and EK Membership has become
                                    > > > habitual and ego driven.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > {Note: Annual EK Membership
                                    > > > is actually required in order to
                                    > > > receive and keep initiations. The
                                    > > > reenrolling of one's membership
                                    > > > must become habitual or risk
                                    > > > losing the fake connection with
                                    > > > the Inner via the outer monetary
                                    > > > membership requirement. Thus,
                                    > > > EK membership is ego, as well as,
                                    > > > fear driven.}
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Prometheus
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