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Re: Klemp's Vanity - His Wisdom Notes and EK Brochure Photo

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  • ctecvie
    Yeah right Prometheus! :-) Reality could be too much for the chelas - I guess they would turn a blind eye anyway, BUT one never knows ... so better make sure
    Message 1 of 21 , Dec 17, 2009
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      Yeah right Prometheus! :-)
      Reality could be too much for the chelas - I guess they would turn a blind eye anyway, BUT one never knows ... so better make sure and use the outdated photo! LOL!
      Ingrid

      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
      >
      > Isn't it strange that a "spiritual master"
      > (a Mahanta) would still be using an
      > outdated photo. This shows that Klemp
      > is attached to KAL's lower plane influences.
      > This is more proof that HK has fallen
      > from SUGMAD's Grace (not that he ever
      > had it). Still, for some ECKists Klemp's
      > youthful appearance attachment must
      > be confusing. Others simply turn a Blind
      > Eye to it all... they like the public seeing
      > the younger looking photo. It's less
      > embarrassing than the real thing. H.I.s,
      > especially, live in a state of denial because
      > it's comfortable and convenient and
      > EK Membership has become habitual
      > and ego driven.
      >
      > Prometheus
      >
    • prometheus_973
      The LEM/Mahanta position represents an ideal and a goal (for men) to strive for in this lifetime. Women will have to come back as men (in future lifetimes) in
      Message 2 of 21 , Dec 18, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        The LEM/Mahanta position represents
        an ideal and a goal (for men) to strive
        for in this lifetime. Women will have to
        come back as men (in future lifetimes)
        in order to have a shot at the title. The
        same goes for "Pope" and numerous
        other religious titles. This is the way
        religion works on planet earth.

        People have to elevate one of their own
        in order to feel close to God and have
        him speak for them. Plus, they need
        one voice to speak back to them and
        to relay what God has said. It's less
        confusing that way. Religion is used
        to control the masses so that chaos
        doesn't reign.

        Manmade laws aren't enough, however.
        Mankind needs answers to explain Why
        and How it all began. Of course these
        are what each Soul needs to discover
        on their own. it's private and subjective.
        Actually, this is the way it used to be
        in Eckankar. ECKists weren't to share
        an inner meeting with the Master or
        things of this nature. You didn't want
        to make others feel bad if they hadn't
        had any inner experiences. Of course
        sometimes people lied like Twitchell
        and made things up or embellished
        the stories too. Some people just need
        attention. It got especially bad if a
        new member had an elaborate dream
        experience when the H.I.s hadn't!

        Sometimes religion can give one a jump
        start, (in the beginning), and from there
        a person can begin their own unique Journey
        with the Divine.

        But, the politicians and religionists
        don't want these people to become
        free thinkers. That would lead to Truth
        and the lies might be revealed to others.
        This would be bad for those in power.
        They don't want people to wake-up
        and smell the coffee. Thus, Klemp is
        against drinking coffee! Let's face it...
        the more stupid and fearful people are
        the easier it is to control them.

        Thus, the educational system, especially
        in the U.U., is deprived of qualified
        teachers and text books that are updated
        and revised to reveal a more complete
        and objective view of history. However,
        proficiency tests are taught so that schools
        receive their funding, thus, a real education
        is postponed.

        Those children that are "home schooled"
        due to religious beliefs end up being even
        more out-of-touch with society and much
        less educated.

        This (below) site has comments that
        aren't too far away from fanatical EK
        beliefs and show the hatred, fear, and
        stupidity that religions have propagated
        over time. Klemp's recent comments in
        "Youth Ask a Modern Prophet about Life,
        Love and God" show how religion is used
        to control and stifle individualized behaviour.

        http://www.fstdt.com/Top100.aspx?archive=1

        Prometheus


        etznab wrote:

        I remember reading recently in the Shariyat-
        Ki-Sugmad about "Mahanta".

        The idea of something existing always and
        since the beginning of time was connected
        to the term (see "Eternal Mahanta").

        In my opinion, the idea of something of this
        nature accords more with a higher state of
        consciousness, or what some popularly call
        a "higher self" available to all people & with
        them at all times whether they realize all of
        it, or not, in a single physical lifetime.

        So I naturally asked myself, What has this
        "Mahanta" have to do with being represented
        by any one person above all others? And if a
        living person dies, then what happens to that
        "Eternal Mahanta"? Surely it doesn't die with
        them. I thought. Because that wouldn't be a
        thing always existing. A thing always with a
        person. Like consciousness.

        What I found was that "mahanta", defined by
        Paul Twitchell and Eckankar, was associated
        with a state of consciousness. Therefore, the
        Paul Twitchell / Eckankar definition: Mahanta
        Consciousness.

        In most - if not all - paths similar to illustrated
        Eckankar teachings about a "Living Master" I
        find the emphasis of one particular individual &
        "representation" of God by them. And though
        it might be said "mahanta" gives the initiation,
        it appears to be up to a single individual - ulti-
        mately - at the organization level at least, and
        feedback from other "Higher Initiates" about a
        person and whether they qualify for initiation.

        I think most people can identify with a form of
        "higher self" in the form of consciousness in a
        potential form always existing - whether all of
        it be realized by a single person on Earth at a
        given time, or in a given lifetime.

        What happened in 1971 after Paul Twitchell
        died and before the next Living Master was
        appointed? What happened to "Mahanta Con-
        sciousness"? I don't think anything happened
        to it since it existed since the beginning and
        is existing always. However, some might say
        it defaulted to the "Torch Bearer" Rebazar T.
        I asked myself: Why need it have to go to a
        single person? Is not "higher consciousness",
        even the "highest" present with "God" for all
        time? Why does something like this have to
        be held by a "single individual"? Especially a
        person in the physical body? or other bodies,
        which are "limited" in relation to "God"?

        Does anybody here believe that something like
        "higher consciousness" exists in potential form
        and is available to all persons? I'm not talking
        about what religious dogma says. Eckankar in-
        cluded.

        I ask the former since I wonder if this is what
        "Eckankar" - and paths similar to it - were re-
        ferring to before the worship of Living Masters
        took over. Before the idea of "God in a single
        man" came into vogue. I mean, is it closer to
        reality that "higher consciousness" does not
        exist like a "property" belonging to a single
        person which all other people have to pay for,
        or rent, in order to partake?

        Then there is the "inner master" thing and an
        association of "mahanta" with that. Well, how
        can one person claim rights to it? I mean,
        what happens when that "one person" dies?
        When the physical "outer master" form dies?

        I think this "inner master" / "mahanta" thing
        is something that doesn't belong to a single
        individual and / or religion. I think what does
        belong to the latter is the "DEFINITION" of it.
        Something which hardly qualifies as unlimit-
        ed. IMO.

        All a religion and religious leaders can do is
        serve as "guides" (for better, or for worse),
        the same as anybody else, in my opinion. I
        seriously doubt they own truth to the extent
        of "renting" it, "selling" it when practically all
        religions and religious leaders are inherently
        limited when it comes to what a person has
        to (MUST) do / realize for them self.

        The popularity of religion in history sprang up
        (IMO) when people realized they could profit
        from offering what knowledge existed for the
        subjects of creation, life, death, the afterlife
        and heaven, etc. It did not matter so much if
        the "knowledge" was all true. Stories were a
        source of income, too. IMO. Even in some of
        the temples people employed inventions for
        the manifestation of apparent miracles. What
        they got in return were donations. Of course,
        they didn't tell people the real source of the
        miracles. Otherwise donations might become
        less.

        Etznab

        P.S. Anybody heard a good story lately? I
        might have a use for it :)


        Prometheus wrote:

        Isn't it strange that a "spiritual master"
        (a Mahanta) would still be using an
        outdated photo. This shows that Klemp
        is attached to KAL's lower plane influences.
        This is more proof that HK has fallen
        from SUGMAD's Grace (not that he ever
        had it). Still, for some ECKists Klemp's
        youthful appearance attachment must
        be confusing. Others simply turn a Blind
        Eye to it all... they like the public seeing
        the younger looking photo. It's less
        embarrassing than the real thing. H.I.s,
        especially, live in a state of denial because
        it's comfortable and convenient and
        EK Membership has become habitual
        and ego driven.

        Prometheus
      • etznab@aol.com
        Those were some good points, Prometheus. The topic of mahanta seems (IMO) central to the teachings of Eckankar. However, I m suspicious about why people on
        Message 3 of 21 , Dec 19, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          Those were some good points, Prometheus. The topic
          of "mahanta" seems (IMO) central to the teachings of
          Eckankar. However, I'm suspicious about why people
          on the outer would seek to identify with what is surely
          an inner reality living with each & every person / being.

          There are a couple excerpts containing the word
          "mahanta" I wanted to share in order to make a
          point, or two, about what it seems to be. To me.
          What is my perspective / opinion, at least.

          ************************************************************

          Christ Consciousness and the Mahanta Consciousness

          "There is a saying in the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad that
          behind all faces and all people is the Mahanta. [....]"

          http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisSearch.html


          ************************************************************

          Working with Higher Consciousness

          "Many people don't quite understand what it means to
          work with the Mahanta Consciousness. They think merely
          opening up in their consciousness makes them a pure
          channel for the ECK at the highest level of the Mahanta
          Consciousness. If this were true, a Second Initiate of pure
          heart could become the Mahanta, and the outer initiations
          wouldn't count.

          "To fully have the Mahanta Consciousness means to reach
          a certain inner as well as outer initiation. In ECK there is
          always the balance between the inner and the outer. Until we
          have this balance, we have yet to become a Co-worker with
          God. [....]"

          http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisSearch.html

          ************************************************************

          The 2nd paragraph in the Working with Higher Consciousness
          quote is one I want to share a perspective on. First sentence,
          that is.

          "To fully have the Mahanta Consciousness means to reach a
          certain inner as well as outer initiation."

          If the "Mahanta" is the "Inner Master" then why is an outer in-
          iation required to fully have Mahanta Consciousness? In that
          paragraph I quoted, Harold talked about balancing of inner &
          outer. Does this mean "Mahanta" / "Mahanta Consciousness
          has inner and outer elements? Or, the inner awareness of a
          person need be balanced with the outer? In this case, "inner"
          being connected with "mahanta" / "mahanta consciousness"?

          "[....] In ECK there is always the balance between the inner and
          the outer. Until we have this balance, we have yet to become a
          Co-worker with God."

          Maybe this is just another way of saying (If I can quote some
          Metallica lyrics): "Obey your Master! Master!"

          My perspective is that it looks confusing to speak about higher
          awareness / consciousness, an Inner and Outer Master, etc. &
          introduce those ideas from the source of an outer authority. As
          from a form of organized religion with "imperfect" outer writings.

          Those three sections of quotes were from 1985. And yet, there
          was a book (Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, Book One) written back in
          early 1970's attempting to explain the "Mahanta". In my opinion
          the "outer" was NOT the same as the "inner". Plain and simple.
          I believe there was a form of "trinity" spelled out. One of which
          was "Eternal Mahanta".

          So, basically, I think an idea of this "ever-present, higher inner
          awareness" embodied in a human form was inevitable in human
          history. Simply because whoever talked about it would naturally
          be associated with what they were talking about. Otherwise,
          how would they know (what they were talking about)? Authority
          about higher awareness and states of consciousness took on a
          outer form. IMO. And one that differed / differs according to the
          particular religion, dogma, history, etc.

          Does anybody see the potential danger with a trusting in outer
          authority blindly? Accepting everything literally? Perhaps this
          is something that needs to be balanced by the "inner" higher
          awareness / consciousness? Because in this case it makes
          sense to me it's not an outer authority living inside my head,
          not some human being person established inside of myself
          which is the Inner Master and highest state of consciousness
          existing always. That is something on another level altogether
          that doesn't become extracted from inner to the outer where it
          chooses to live in one single human body at a time telling all
          other human bodies that no, it is not there on the outer, no, it
          is on the inner where you need to look. It is the inner where
          the "mahanta" truly resides. And in the same breath implying
          that the "mahanta" is the same as one human being living in
          a physical body. One human being with outer authority to de-
          termine the level of initiation (outer at least) for practically all
          other people in the entire universe!

          It's confusing, IMO. Balancing this "inner" and "outer" thing
          when the two are perceived to be the same, when truly they
          are not the same. In my opinion.

          Is the inner "individual highest consciousness" present with
          all beings going to balance the outer? Or, Is the outer - and in
          the form of other beings independent from the individual - going
          to "balance" (perhaps seek to control) the inner? It might just
          be that words are not sufficient to bring clarity on this topic.
          Or, it might be that outer authority is not sufficient to identify
          itself with a "inner" or "highest state of consciousness" within
          every single individual / being. I suspect.

          Besides, some of the authority about what is "mahanta" can
          be found in books by other authors. Even places where that
          was not the original term in some teachings. Mahatma may
          have been in its place. I'm referring to the writings of Julian J.
          and where he spells out the characteristics of a living master,
          how you can tell one, what is one, etc. etc.

          Some of Johnson's quotes appear in the Eckankar writings,
          but (some of them) changed in some ways. In my opinion. I
          see this as "imperfect outer teachings" and not what came
          from some "being on the inner".

          Etznab
















          -----Original Message-----
          From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Fri, Dec 18, 2009 6:33 pm
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp's Vanity - His Wisdom
          Notes and EK Brochure Photo

           
          The LEM/Mahanta position represents
          an ideal and a goal (for men) to strive
          for in this lifetime. Women will have to
          come back as men (in future lifetimes)
          in order to have a shot at the title. The
          same goes for "Pope" and numerous
          other religious titles. This is the way
          religion works on planet earth.

          People have to elevate one of their own
          in order to feel close to God and have
          him speak for them. Plus, they need
          one voice to speak back to them and
          to relay what God has said. It's less
          confusing that way. Religion is used
          to control the masses so that chaos
          doesn't reign.

          Manmade laws aren't enough, however.
          Mankind needs answers to explain Why
          and How it all began. Of course these
          are what each Soul needs to discover
          on their own. it's private and subjective.
          Actually, this is the way it used to be
          in Eckankar. ECKists weren't to share
          an inner meeting with the Master or
          things of this nature. You didn't want
          to make others feel bad if they hadn't
          had any inner experiences. Of course
          sometimes people lied like Twitchell
          and made things up or embellished
          the stories too. Some people just need
          attention. It got especially bad if a
          new member had an elaborate dream
          experience when the H.I.s hadn't!

          Sometimes religion can give one a jump
          start, (in the beginning), and from there
          a person can begin their own unique Journey
          with the Divine.

          But, the politicians and religionists
          don't want these people to become
          free thinkers. That would lead to Truth
          and the lies might be revealed to others.
          This would be bad for those in power.
          They don't want people to wake-up
          and smell the coffee. Thus, Klemp is
          against drinking coffee! Let's face it...
          the more stupid and fearful people are
          the easier it is to control them.

          Thus, the educational system, especially
          in the U.U., is deprived of qualified
          teachers and text books that are updated
          and revised to reveal a more complete
          and objective view of history. However,
          proficiency tests are taught so that schools
          receive their funding, thus, a real education
          is postponed.

          Those children that are "home schooled"
          due to religious beliefs end up being even
          more out-of-touch with society and much
          less educated.

          This (below) site has comments that
          aren't too far away from fanatical EK
          beliefs and show the hatred, fear, and
          stupidity that religions have propagated
          over time. Klemp's recent comments in
          "Youth Ask a Modern Prophet about Life,
          Love and God" show how religion is used
          to control and stifle individualized behaviour.

          http://www.fstdt.com/Top100.aspx?archive=1

          Prometheus

          etznab wrote:

          I remember reading recently in the Shariyat-
          Ki-Sugmad about "Mahanta".

          The idea of something existing always and
          since the beginning of time was connected
          to the term (see "Eternal Mahanta").

          In my opinion, the idea of something of this
          nature accords more with a higher state of
          consciousness, or what some popularly call
          a "higher self" available to all people & with
          them at all times whether they realize all of
          it, or not, in a single physical lifetime.

          So I naturally asked myself, What has this
          "Mahanta" have to do with being represented
          by any one person above all others? And if a
          living person dies, then what happens to that
          "Eternal Mahanta"? Surely it doesn't die with
          them. I thought. Because that wouldn't be a
          thing always existing. A thing always with a
          person. Like consciousness.

          What I found was that "mahanta", defined by
          Paul Twitchell and Eckankar, was associated
          with a state of consciousness. Therefore, the
          Paul Twitchell / Eckankar definition: Mahanta
          Consciousness.

          In most - if not all - paths similar to illustrated
          Eckankar teachings about a "Living Master" I
          find the emphasis of one particular individual &
          "representation" of God by them. And though
          it might be said "mahanta" gives the initiation,
          it appears to be up to a single individual - ulti-
          mately - at the organization level at least, and
          feedback from other "Higher Initiates" about a
          person and whether they qualify for initiation.

          I think most people can identify with a form of
          "higher self" in the form of consciousness in a
          potential form always existing - whether all of
          it be realized by a single person on Earth at a
          given time, or in a given lifetime.

          What happened in 1971 after Paul Twitchell
          died and before the next Living Master was
          appointed? What happened to "Mahanta Con-
          sciousness"? I don't think anything happened
          to it since it existed since the beginning and
          is existing always. However, some might say
          it defaulted to the "Torch Bearer" Rebazar T.
          I asked myself: Why need it have to go to a
          single person? Is not "higher consciousness",
          even the "highest" present with "God" for all
          time? Why does something like this have to
          be held by a "single individual"? Especially a
          person in the physical body? or other bodies,
          which are "limited" in relation to "God"?

          Does anybody here believe that something like
          "higher consciousness" exists in potential form
          and is available to all persons? I'm not talking
          about what religious dogma says. Eckankar in-
          cluded.

          I ask the former since I wonder if this is what
          "Eckankar" - and paths similar to it - were re-
          ferring to before the worship of Living Masters
          took over. Before the idea of "God in a single
          man" came into vogue. I mean, is it closer to
          reality that "higher consciousness" does not
          exist like a "property" belonging to a single
          person which all other people have to pay for,
          or rent, in order to partake?

          Then there is the "inner master" thing and an
          association of "mahanta" with that. Well, how
          can one person claim rights to it? I mean,
          what happens when that "one person" dies?
          When the physical "outer master" form dies?

          I think this "inner master" / "mahanta" thing
          is something that doesn't belong to a single
          individual and / or religion. I think what does
          belong to the latter is the "DEFINITION" of it.
          Something which hardly qualifies as unlimit-
          ed. IMO.

          All a religion and religious leaders can do is
          serve as "guides" (for better, or for worse),
          the same as anybody else, in my opinion. I
          seriously doubt they own truth to the extent
          of "renting" it, "selling" it when practically all
          religions and religious leaders are inherently
          limited when it comes to what a person has
          to (MUST) do / realize for them self.

          The popularity of religion in history sprang up
          (IMO) when people realized they could profit
          from offering what knowledge existed for the
          subjects of creation, life, death, the afterlife
          and heaven, etc. It did not matter so much if
          the "knowledge" was all true. Stories were a
          source of income, too. IMO. Even in some of
          the temples people employed inventions for
          the manifestation of apparent miracles. What
          they got in return were donations. Of course,
          they didn't tell people the real source of the
          miracles. Otherwise donations might become
          less.

          Etznab

          P.S. Anybody heard a good story lately? I
          might have a use for it :)

          Prometheus wrote:

          Isn't it strange that a "spiritual master"
          (a Mahanta) would still be using an
          outdated photo. This shows that Klemp
          is attached to KAL's lower plane influences.
          This is more proof that HK has fallen
          from SUGMAD's Grace (not that he ever
          had it). Still, for some ECKists Klemp's
          youthful appearance attachment must
          be confusing. Others simply turn a Blind
          Eye to it all... they like the public seeing
          the younger looking photo. It's less
          embarrassing than the real thing. H.I.s,
          especially, live in a state of denial because
          it's comfortable and convenient and
          EK Membership has become habitual
          and ego driven.

          Prometheus
        • etznab@aol.com
          Paradoxical as it may seem, my point in bringing out all of this has been to strengthen your faith in the Mahanta—but not at the expense of making a god out
          Message 4 of 21 , Dec 19, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            "Paradoxical as it may seem, my point in bringing
            out all of this has been to strengthen your faith in the
            Mahanta—but not at the expense of making a god
            out of the Mahanta's vehicle, which is the Living ECK
            Master. It's a price we cannot afford to pay. As soon
            as we set someone above us, in potential or in fact,
            we have committed a crime against ourselves: We
            have limited the opportunity for our own unfoldment."

            [Based on: Article (The Real Foundation), by Harold Klemp

            http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/writings.html#ideal

            "We are making an effort to construct a physical history
            of ECKANKAR, looking for actual physical records to
            verify the existence of some of the ECK Masters in a way
            that historians of the future will be able to accept; some-
            thing beyond just the words of one of the Living ECK
            Masters of the past. It will be vital for the survival of
            ECKANKAR as a religious teaching in the future."

            Based on: Harold Klemp, The Secret Teachings, p. 246

            The living Eck Master is a "vehicle" for "Mahanta"?

            We are looking for something "[....] beyond just the
            words of one of the Living ECK Masters of the past"?

            ******************************************************************

            I don't think it wrong for one to state opinions, perspectives,
            ask questions and / or seek to discuss the topic of "Living
            Masters" as vehicles for what has been called "Mahanta".
            Even if it means not making God(s) out of the "vehicles".

            Etznab






            -----Original Message-----
            From: etznab@...
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sat, Dec 19, 2009 8:50 am
            Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp's Vanity - His
            Wisdom Notes and EK Brochure Photo

             

            Those were some good points, Prometheus. The topic
            of "mahanta" seems (IMO) central to the teachings of
            Eckankar. However, I'm suspicious about why people
            on the outer would seek to identify with what is surely
            an inner reality living with each & every person / being.

            There are a couple excerpts containing the word
            "mahanta" I wanted to share in order to make a
            point, or two, about what it seems to be. To me.
            What is my perspective / opinion, at least.

            ************************************************************

            Christ Consciousness and the Mahanta Consciousness

            "There is a saying in the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad that
            behind all faces and all people is the Mahanta. [....]"

            http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisSearch.html

            ************************************************************

            Working with Higher Consciousness

            "Many people don't quite understand what it means to
            work with the Mahanta Consciousness. They think merely
            opening up in their consciousness makes them a pure
            channel for the ECK at the highest level of the Mahanta
            Consciousness. If this were true, a Second Initiate of pure
            heart could become the Mahanta, and the outer initiations
            wouldn't count.

            "To fully have the Mahanta Consciousness means to reach
            a certain inner as well as outer initiation. In ECK there is
            always the balance between the inner and the outer. Until we
            have this balance, we have yet to become a Co-worker with
            God. [....]"

            http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisSearch.html

            ************************************************************

            The 2nd paragraph in the Working with Higher Consciousness
            quote is one I want to share a perspective on. First sentence,
            that is.

            "To fully have the Mahanta Consciousness means to reach a
            certain inner as well as outer initiation."

            If the "Mahanta" is the "Inner Master" then why is an outer in-
            iation required to fully have Mahanta Consciousness? In that
            paragraph I quoted, Harold talked about balancing of inner &
            outer. Does this mean "Mahanta" / "Mahanta Consciousness
            has inner and outer elements? Or, the inner awareness of a
            person need be balanced with the outer? In this case, "inner"
            being connected with "mahanta" / "mahanta consciousness"?

            "[....] In ECK there is always the balance between the inner and
            the outer. Until we have this balance, we have yet to become a
            Co-worker with God."

            Maybe this is just another way of saying (If I can quote some
            Metallica lyrics): "Obey your Master! Master!"

            My perspective is that it looks confusing to speak about higher
            awareness / consciousness, an Inner and Outer Master, etc. &
            introduce those ideas from the source of an outer authority. As
            from a form of organized religion with "imperfect" outer writings.

            Those three sections of quotes were from 1985. And yet, there
            was a book (Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, Book One) written back in
            early 1970's attempting to explain the "Mahanta". In my opinion
            the "outer" was NOT the same as the "inner". Plain and simple.
            I believe there was a form of "trinity" spelled out. One of which
            was "Eternal Mahanta".

            So, basically, I think an idea of this "ever-present, higher inner
            awareness" embodied in a human form was inevitable in human
            history. Simply because whoever talked about it would naturally
            be associated with what they were talking about. Otherwise,
            how would they know (what they were talking about)? Authority
            about higher awareness and states of consciousness took on a
            outer form. IMO. And one that differed / differs according to the
            particular religion, dogma, history, etc.

            Does anybody see the potential danger with a trusting in outer
            authority blindly? Accepting everything literally? Perhaps this
            is something that needs to be balanced by the "inner" higher
            awareness / consciousness? Because in this case it makes
            sense to me it's not an outer authority living inside my head,
            not some human being person established inside of myself
            which is the Inner Master and highest state of consciousness
            existing always. That is something on another level altogether
            that doesn't become extracted from inner to the outer where it
            chooses to live in one single human body at a time telling all
            other human bodies that no, it is not there on the outer, no, it
            is on the inner where you need to look. It is the inner where
            the "mahanta" truly resides. And in the same breath implying
            that the "mahanta" is the same as one human being living in
            a physical body. One human being with outer authority to de-
            termine the level of initiation (outer at least) for practically all
            other people in the entire universe!

            It's confusing, IMO. Balancing this "inner" and "outer" thing
            when the two are perceived to be the same, when truly they
            are not the same. In my opinion.

            Is the inner "individual highest consciousness" present with
            all beings going to balance the outer? Or, Is the outer - and in
            the form of other beings independent from the individual - going
            to "balance" (perhaps seek to control) the inner? It might just
            be that words are not sufficient to bring clarity on this topic.
            Or, it might be that outer authority is not sufficient to identify
            itself with a "inner" or "highest state of consciousness" within
            every single individual / being. I suspect.

            Besides, some of the authority about what is "mahanta" can
            be found in books by other authors. Even places where that
            was not the original term in some teachings. Mahatma may
            have been in its place. I'm referring to the writings of Julian J.
            and where he spells out the characteristics of a living master,
            how you can tell one, what is one, etc. etc.

            Some of Johnson's quotes appear in the Eckankar writings,
            but (some of them) changed in some ways. In my opinion. I
            see this as "imperfect outer teachings" and not what came
            from some "being on the inner".

            Etznab

            -----Original Message-----
            From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Fri, Dec 18, 2009 6:33 pm
            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp's Vanity - His Wisdom
            Notes and EK Brochure Photo

             
            The LEM/Mahanta position represents
            an ideal and a goal (for men) to strive
            for in this lifetime. Women will have to
            come back as men (in future lifetimes)
            in order to have a shot at the title. The
            same goes for "Pope" and numerous
            other religious titles. This is the way
            religion works on planet earth.

            People have to elevate one of their own
            in order to feel close to God and have
            him speak for them. Plus, they need
            one voice to speak back to them and
            to relay what God has said. It's less
            confusing that way. Religion is used
            to control the masses so that chaos
            doesn't reign.

            Manmade laws aren't enough, however.
            Mankind needs answers to explain Why
            and How it all began. Of course these
            are what each Soul needs to discover
            on their own. it's private and subjective.
            Actually, this is the way it used to be
            in Eckankar. ECKists weren't to share
            an inner meeting with the Master or
            things of this nature. You didn't want
            to make others feel bad if they hadn't
            had any inner experiences. Of course
            sometimes people lied like Twitchell
            and made things up or embellished
            the stories too. Some people just need
            attention. It got especially bad if a
            new member had an elaborate dream
            experience when the H.I.s hadn't!

            Sometimes religion can give one a jump
            start, (in the beginning), and from there
            a person can begin their own unique Journey
            with the Divine.

            But, the politicians and religionists
            don't want these people to become
            free thinkers. That would lead to Truth
            and the lies might be revealed to others.
            This would be bad for those in power.
            They don't want people to wake-up
            and smell the coffee. Thus, Klemp is
            against drinking coffee! Let's face it...
            the more stupid and fearful people are
            the easier it is to control them.

            Thus, the educational system, especially
            in the U.U., is deprived of qualified
            teachers and text books that are updated
            and revised to reveal a more complete
            and objective view of history. However,
            proficiency tests are taught so that schools
            receive their funding, thus, a real education
            is postponed.

            Those children that are "home schooled"
            due to religious beliefs end up being even
            more out-of-touch with society and much
            less educated.

            This (below) site has comments that
            aren't too far away from fanatical EK
            beliefs and show the hatred, fear, and
            stupidity that religions have propagated
            over time. Klemp's recent comments in
            "Youth Ask a Modern Prophet about Life,
            Love and God" show how religion is used
            to control and stifle individualized behaviour.

            http://www.fstdt.com/Top100.aspx?archive=1

            Prometheus

            etznab wrote:

            I remember reading recently in the Shariyat-
            Ki-Sugmad about "Mahanta".

            The idea of something existing always and
            since the beginning of time was connected
            to the term (see "Eternal Mahanta").

            In my opinion, the idea of something of this
            nature accords more with a higher state of
            consciousness, or what some popularly call
            a "higher self" available to all people & with
            them at all times whether they realize all of
            it, or not, in a single physical lifetime.

            So I naturally asked myself, What has this
            "Mahanta" have to do with being represented
            by any one person above all others? And if a
            living person dies, then what happens to that
            "Eternal Mahanta"? Surely it doesn't die with
            them. I thought. Because that wouldn't be a
            thing always existing. A thing always with a
            person. Like consciousness.

            What I found was that "mahanta", defined by
            Paul Twitchell and Eckankar, was associated
            with a state of consciousness. Therefore, the
            Paul Twitchell / Eckankar definition: Mahanta
            Consciousness.

            In most - if not all - paths similar to illustrated
            Eckankar teachings about a "Living Master" I
            find the emphasis of one particular individual &
            "representation" of God by them. And though
            it might be said "mahanta" gives the initiation,
            it appears to be up to a single individual - ulti-
            mately - at the organization level at least, and
            feedback from other "Higher Initiates" about a
            person and whether they qualify for initiation.

            I think most people can identify with a form of
            "higher self" in the form of consciousness in a
            potential form always existing - whether all of
            it be realized by a single person on Earth at a
            given time, or in a given lifetime.

            What happened in 1971 after Paul Twitchell
            died and before the next Living Master was
            appointed? What happened to "Mahanta Con-
            sciousness"? I don't think anything happened
            to it since it existed since the beginning and
            is existing always. However, some might say
            it defaulted to the "Torch Bearer" Rebazar T.
            I asked myself: Why need it have to go to a
            single person? Is not "higher consciousness",
            even the "highest" present with "God" for all
            time? Why does something like this have to
            be held by a "single individual"? Especially a
            person in the physical body? or other bodies,
            which are "limited" in relation to "God"?

            Does anybody here believe that something like
            "higher consciousness" exists in potential form
            and is available to all persons? I'm not talking
            about what religious dogma says. Eckankar in-
            cluded.

            I ask the former since I wonder if this is what
            "Eckankar" - and paths similar to it - were re-
            ferring to before the worship of Living Masters
            took over. Before the idea of "God in a single
            man" came into vogue. I mean, is it closer to
            reality that "higher consciousness" does not
            exist like a "property" belonging to a single
            person which all other people have to pay for,
            or rent, in order to partake?

            Then there is the "inner master" thing and an
            association of "mahanta" with that. Well, how
            can one person claim rights to it? I mean,
            what happens when that "one person" dies?
            When the physical "outer master" form dies?

            I think this "inner master" / "mahanta" thing
            is something that doesn't belong to a single
            individual and / or religion. I think what does
            belong to the latter is the "DEFINITION" of it.
            Something which hardly qualifies as unlimit-
            ed. IMO.

            All a religion and religious leaders can do is
            serve as "guides" (for better, or for worse),
            the same as anybody else, in my opinion. I
            seriously doubt they own truth to the extent
            of "renting" it, "selling" it when practically all
            religions and religious leaders are inherently
            limited when it comes to what a person has
            to (MUST) do / realize for them self.

            The popularity of religion in history sprang up
            (IMO) when people realized they could profit
            from offering what knowledge existed for the
            subjects of creation, life, death, the afterlife
            and heaven, etc. It did not matter so much if
            the "knowledge" was all true. Stories were a
            source of income, too. IMO. Even in some of
            the temples people employed inventions for
            the manifestation of apparent miracles. What
            they got in return were donations. Of course,
            they didn't tell people the real source of the
            miracles. Otherwise donations might become
            less.

            Etznab

            P.S. Anybody heard a good story lately? I
            might have a use for it :)

            Prometheus wrote:

            Isn't it strange that a "spiritual master"
            (a Mahanta) would still be using an
            outdated photo. This shows that Klemp
            is attached to KAL's lower plane influences.
            This is more proof that HK has fallen
            from SUGMAD's Grace (not that he ever
            had it). Still, for some ECKists Klemp's
            youthful appearance attachment must
            be confusing. Others simply turn a Blind
            Eye to it all... they like the public seeing
            the younger looking photo. It's less
            embarrassing than the real thing. H.I.s,
            especially, live in a state of denial because
            it's comfortable and convenient and
            EK Membership has become habitual
            and ego driven.

            Prometheus
          • etznab@aol.com
            . [....] Even in some of the temples people employed inventions for the manifestation of apparent miracles. What they got in return were donations. Of course,
            Message 5 of 21 , Dec 19, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              .
              "[....] Even in some of the temples people employed
              inventions for the manifestation of apparent miracles.
              What they got in return were donations. Of course,
              they didn't tell people the real source of the miracles.
              Otherwise donations might become less. [....]"

              Something from the description of the movie I saw
              where it documented various forms of deception that
              were employed to make miracles appear to happen
              using different forms of technology. This is where it
              appears that science was used to promote ideas of
              miracle-working gods existing behind the scenes. It
              was a perversion of not only religion, but of science
              as well. In my opinion:

              "Set firmly at the intersection of religion, science
              and commerce, the latest episode of ANCIENT
              DISCOVERIES travels to Rome and Greece to
              explore the commissioning, fabrication and pre-
              sentation of marvels meant to instill awe and draw
              hordes of deep-pocketed devotees. You will be
              amazed to learn how the greatest minds of the age
              were turned to the construction of what were little
              more than parlor tricks, albeit enormously sophist-
              icated and impressive ones."

              http://shop.history.com/detail.php?p=69989&ecid=SEO-0000046&pa=SEO-SSP

              I believe that program appeared on the History
              Channel some time back.

              Add to this the fact people have fabricated even
              ancient artifacts to frauduently propagate church
              history, have told stories that were mythological
              and / or symbolic - but accepted as literal truth,
              used teachings and quotes from the past which
              were fragmentary, little understood, and / or in a
              language nobody today completely understands,
              etc., and I see ample reason to be skeptical. To
              investigate, examine and even question "outer"
              forms of teachings - from science to religion.

              Today it appears ironic how religion and science
              are apparently divided, when many have argued
              it was not always the case. Col. James Church-
              ward speaking about "religion" in Lemuria gives
              an opinion that religion was described in terms
              a child could understand. Also, that religion and
              science were not two separate things in the very
              beginning. In fact, it is my belief, religion was
              described in "scientific" terms then because the
              people knew how both were connected.

              So, when science today is used to investigate,
              examine and, in some cases expose religious
              fraud I think it helps to remember how science
              was not always the record of ignorance about
              how things work that is in existence today.

              And, in my opinion, some people from earlier
              times may have been much more advanced,
              not less advanced (generally), compared with
              people living today. Looking at remains of the
              past through a modern (ignorant of the past)
              lens and portraying them as less civilized,
              less knowledgeable and less wise is (IMO) a
              major insult to history. I'm talking particularly
              about the ancient and far ancient past. Times
              when monuments were constructed and tech-
              nology existed that people today are still try-
              ing to fathom.

              Wasn't the far ancient past like some kind of
              "Golden Age" anyway? Compared to today?
              Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
              truth escape us? How might that have happ-
              ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
              in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
              was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
              untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
              fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
              ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
              blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
              as literally true.

              Etznab









              -----Original Message-----
              From: etznab@...
              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sat, Dec 19, 2009 9:21 am
              Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp's Vanity - His
              Wisdom Notes and EK Brochure Photo

               

              "Paradoxical as it may seem, my point in bringing
              out all of this has been to strengthen your faith in the
              Mahanta—but not at the expense of making a god
              out of the Mahanta's vehicle, which is the Living ECK
              Master. It's a price we cannot afford to pay. As soon
              as we set someone above us, in potential or in fact,
              we have committed a crime against ourselves: We
              have limited the opportunity for our own unfoldment."

              [Based on: Article (The Real Foundation), by Harold Klemp

              http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/writings.html#ideal

              "We are making an effort to construct a physical history
              of ECKANKAR, looking for actual physical records to
              verify the existence of some of the ECK Masters in a way
              that historians of the future will be able to accept; some-
              thing beyond just the words of one of the Living ECK
              Masters of the past. It will be vital for the survival of
              ECKANKAR as a religious teaching in the future."

              Based on: Harold Klemp, The Secret Teachings, p. 246

              The living Eck Master is a "vehicle" for "Mahanta"?

              We are looking for something "[....] beyond just the
              words of one of the Living ECK Masters of the past"?

              ******************************************************************

              I don't think it wrong for one to state opinions, perspectives,
              ask questions and / or seek to discuss the topic of "Living
              Masters" as vehicles for what has been called "Mahanta".
              Even if it means not making God(s) out of the "vehicles".

              Etznab

              -----Original Message-----
              From: etznab@...
              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sat, Dec 19, 2009 8:50 am
              Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp's Vanity - His
              Wisdom Notes and EK Brochure Photo

               

              Those were some good points, Prometheus. The topic
              of "mahanta" seems (IMO) central to the teachings of
              Eckankar. However, I'm suspicious about why people
              on the outer would seek to identify with what is surely
              an inner reality living with each & every person / being.

              There are a couple excerpts containing the word
              "mahanta" I wanted to share in order to make a
              point, or two, about what it seems to be. To me.
              What is my perspective / opinion, at least.

              ************************************************************

              Christ Consciousness and the Mahanta Consciousness

              "There is a saying in the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad that
              behind all faces and all people is the Mahanta. [....]"

              http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisSearch.html

              ************************************************************

              Working with Higher Consciousness

              "Many people don't quite understand what it means to
              work with the Mahanta Consciousness. They think merely
              opening up in their consciousness makes them a pure
              channel for the ECK at the highest level of the Mahanta
              Consciousness. If this were true, a Second Initiate of pure
              heart could become the Mahanta, and the outer initiations
              wouldn't count.

              "To fully have the Mahanta Consciousness means to reach
              a certain inner as well as outer initiation. In ECK there is
              always the balance between the inner and the outer. Until we
              have this balance, we have yet to become a Co-worker with
              God. [....]"

              http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisSearch.html

              ************************************************************

              The 2nd paragraph in the Working with Higher Consciousness
              quote is one I want to share a perspective on. First sentence,
              that is.

              "To fully have the Mahanta Consciousness means to reach a
              certain inner as well as outer initiation."

              If the "Mahanta" is the "Inner Master" then why is an outer in-
              iation required to fully have Mahanta Consciousness? In that
              paragraph I quoted, Harold talked about balancing of inner &
              outer. Does this mean "Mahanta" / "Mahanta Consciousness
              has inner and outer elements? Or, the inner awareness of a
              person need be balanced with the outer? In this case, "inner"
              being connected with "mahanta" / "mahanta consciousness"?

              "[....] In ECK there is always the balance between the inner and
              the outer. Until we have this balance, we have yet to become a
              Co-worker with God."

              Maybe this is just another way of saying (If I can quote some
              Metallica lyrics): "Obey your Master! Master!"

              My perspective is that it looks confusing to speak about higher
              awareness / consciousness, an Inner and Outer Master, etc. &
              introduce those ideas from the source of an outer authority. As
              from a form of organized religion with "imperfect" outer writings.

              Those three sections of quotes were from 1985. And yet, there
              was a book (Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, Book One) written back in
              early 1970's attempting to explain the "Mahanta". In my opinion
              the "outer" was NOT the same as the "inner". Plain and simple.
              I believe there was a form of "trinity" spelled out. One of which
              was "Eternal Mahanta".

              So, basically, I think an idea of this "ever-present, higher inner
              awareness" embodied in a human form was inevitable in human
              history. Simply because whoever talked about it would naturally
              be associated with what they were talking about. Otherwise,
              how would they know (what they were talking about)? Authority
              about higher awareness and states of consciousness took on a
              outer form. IMO. And one that differed / differs according to the
              particular religion, dogma, history, etc.

              Does anybody see the potential danger with a trusting in outer
              authority blindly? Accepting everything literally? Perhaps this
              is something that needs to be balanced by the "inner" higher
              awareness / consciousness? Because in this case it makes
              sense to me it's not an outer authority living inside my head,
              not some human being person established inside of myself
              which is the Inner Master and highest state of consciousness
              existing always. That is something on another level altogether
              that doesn't become extracted from inner to the outer where it
              chooses to live in one single human body at a time telling all
              other human bodies that no, it is not there on the outer, no, it
              is on the inner where you need to look. It is the inner where
              the "mahanta" truly resides. And in the same breath implying
              that the "mahanta" is the same as one human being living in
              a physical body. One human being with outer authority to de-
              termine the level of initiation (outer at least) for practically all
              other people in the entire universe!

              It's confusing, IMO. Balancing this "inner" and "outer" thing
              when the two are perceived to be the same, when truly they
              are not the same. In my opinion.

              Is the inner "individual highest consciousness" present with
              all beings going to balance the outer? Or, Is the outer - and in
              the form of other beings independent from the individual - going
              to "balance" (perhaps seek to control) the inner? It might just
              be that words are not sufficient to bring clarity on this topic.
              Or, it might be that outer authority is not sufficient to identify
              itself with a "inner" or "highest state of consciousness" within
              every single individual / being. I suspect.

              Besides, some of the authority about what is "mahanta" can
              be found in books by other authors. Even places where that
              was not the original term in some teachings. Mahatma may
              have been in its place. I'm referring to the writings of Julian J.
              and where he spells out the characteristics of a living master,
              how you can tell one, what is one, etc. etc.

              Some of Johnson's quotes appear in the Eckankar writings,
              but (some of them) changed in some ways. In my opinion. I
              see this as "imperfect outer teachings" and not what came
              from some "being on the inner".

              Etznab

              -----Original Message-----
              From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Fri, Dec 18, 2009 6:33 pm
              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp's Vanity - His Wisdom
              Notes and EK Brochure Photo

               
              The LEM/Mahanta position represents
              an ideal and a goal (for men) to strive
              for in this lifetime. Women will have to
              come back as men (in future lifetimes)
              in order to have a shot at the title. The
              same goes for "Pope" and numerous
              other religious titles. This is the way
              religion works on planet earth.

              People have to elevate one of their own
              in order to feel close to God and have
              him speak for them. Plus, they need
              one voice to speak back to them and
              to relay what God has said. It's less
              confusing that way. Religion is used
              to control the masses so that chaos
              doesn't reign.

              Manmade laws aren't enough, however.
              Mankind needs answers to explain Why
              and How it all began. Of course these
              are what each Soul needs to discover
              on their own. it's private and subjective.
              Actually, this is the way it used to be
              in Eckankar. ECKists weren't to share
              an inner meeting with the Master or
              things of this nature. You didn't want
              to make others feel bad if they hadn't
              had any inner experiences. Of course
              sometimes people lied like Twitchell
              and made things up or embellished
              the stories too. Some people just need
              attention. It got especially bad if a
              new member had an elaborate dream
              experience when the H.I.s hadn't!

              Sometimes religion can give one a jump
              start, (in the beginning), and from there
              a person can begin their own unique Journey
              with the Divine.

              But, the politicians and religionists
              don't want these people to become
              free thinkers. That would lead to Truth
              and the lies might be revealed to others.
              This would be bad for those in power.
              They don't want people to wake-up
              and smell the coffee. Thus, Klemp is
              against drinking coffee! Let's face it...
              the more stupid and fearful people are
              the easier it is to control them.

              Thus, the educational system, especially
              in the U.U., is deprived of qualified
              teachers and text books that are updated
              and revised to reveal a more complete
              and objective view of history. However,
              proficiency tests are taught so that schools
              receive their funding, thus, a real education
              is postponed.

              Those children that are "home schooled"
              due to religious beliefs end up being even
              more out-of-touch with society and much
              less educated.

              This (below) site has comments that
              aren't too far away from fanatical EK
              beliefs and show the hatred, fear, and
              stupidity that religions have propagated
              over time. Klemp's recent comments in
              "Youth Ask a Modern Prophet about Life,
              Love and God" show how religion is used
              to control and stifle individualized behaviour.

              http://www.fstdt.com/Top100.aspx?archive=1

              Prometheus

              etznab wrote:

              I remember reading recently in the Shariyat-
              Ki-Sugmad about "Mahanta".

              The idea of something existing always and
              since the beginning of time was connected
              to the term (see "Eternal Mahanta").

              In my opinion, the idea of something of this
              nature accords more with a higher state of
              consciousness, or what some popularly call
              a "higher self" available to all people & with
              them at all times whether they realize all of
              it, or not, in a single physical lifetime.

              So I naturally asked myself, What has this
              "Mahanta" have to do with being represented
              by any one person above all others? And if a
              living person dies, then what happens to that
              "Eternal Mahanta"? Surely it doesn't die with
              them. I thought. Because that wouldn't be a
              thing always existing. A thing always with a
              person. Like consciousness.

              What I found was that "mahanta", defined by
              Paul Twitchell and Eckankar, was associated
              with a state of consciousness. Therefore, the
              Paul Twitchell / Eckankar definition: Mahanta
              Consciousness.

              In most - if not all - paths similar to illustrated
              Eckankar teachings about a "Living Master" I
              find the emphasis of one particular individual &
              "representation" of God by them. And though
              it might be said "mahanta" gives the initiation,
              it appears to be up to a single individual - ulti-
              mately - at the organization level at least, and
              feedback from other "Higher Initiates" about a
              person and whether they qualify for initiation.

              I think most people can identify with a form of
              "higher self" in the form of consciousness in a
              potential form always existing - whether all of
              it be realized by a single person on Earth at a
              given time, or in a given lifetime.

              What happened in 1971 after Paul Twitchell
              died and before the next Living Master was
              appointed? What happened to "Mahanta Con-
              sciousness"? I don't think anything happened
              to it since it existed since the beginning and
              is existing always. However, some might say
              it defaulted to the "Torch Bearer" Rebazar T.
              I asked myself: Why need it have to go to a
              single person? Is not "higher consciousness",
              even the "highest" present with "God" for all
              time? Why does something like this have to
              be held by a "single individual"? Especially a
              person in the physical body? or other bodies,
              which are "limited" in relation to "God"?

              Does anybody here believe that something like
              "higher consciousness" exists in potential form
              and is available to all persons? I'm not talking
              about what religious dogma says. Eckankar in-
              cluded.

              I ask the former since I wonder if this is what
              "Eckankar" - and paths similar to it - were re-
              ferring to before the worship of Living Masters
              took over. Before the idea of "God in a single
              man" came into vogue. I mean, is it closer to
              reality that "higher consciousness" does not
              exist like a "property" belonging to a single
              person which all other people have to pay for,
              or rent, in order to partake?

              Then there is the "inner master" thing and an
              association of "mahanta" with that. Well, how
              can one person claim rights to it? I mean,
              what happens when that "one person" dies?
              When the physical "outer master" form dies?

              I think this "inner master" / "mahanta" thing
              is something that doesn't belong to a single
              individual and / or religion. I think what does
              belong to the latter is the "DEFINITION" of it.
              Something which hardly qualifies as unlimit-
              ed. IMO.

              All a religion and religious leaders can do is
              serve as "guides" (for better, or for worse),
              the same as anybody else, in my opinion. I
              seriously doubt they own truth to the extent
              of "renting" it, "selling" it when practically all
              religions and religious leaders are inherently
              limited when it comes to what a person has
              to (MUST) do / realize for them self.

              The popularity of religion in history sprang up
              (IMO) when people realized they could profit
              from offering what knowledge existed for the
              subjects of creation, life, death, the afterlife
              and heaven, etc. It did not matter so much if
              the "knowledge" was all true. Stories were a
              source of income, too. IMO. Even in some of
              the temples people employed inventions for
              the manifestation of apparent miracles. What
              they got in return were donations. Of course,
              they didn't tell people the real source of the
              miracles. Otherwise donations might become
              less.

              Etznab

              P.S. Anybody heard a good story lately? I
              might have a use for it :)

              Prometheus wrote:

              Isn't it strange that a "spiritual master"
              (a Mahanta) would still be using an
              outdated photo. This shows that Klemp
              is attached to KAL's lower plane influences.
              This is more proof that HK has fallen
              from SUGMAD's Grace (not that he ever
              had it). Still, for some ECKists Klemp's
              youthful appearance attachment must
              be confusing. Others simply turn a Blind
              Eye to it all... they like the public seeing
              the younger looking photo. It's less
              embarrassing than the real thing. H.I.s,
              especially, live in a state of denial because
              it's comfortable and convenient and
              EK Membership has become habitual
              and ego driven.

              Prometheus
            • prometheus_973
              Hello Etznab, This just goes to show that Klemp changes his direction as much as Twit did. it s to keep Eckists off-balance and confused. He s talking out of
              Message 6 of 21 , Dec 20, 2009
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                Hello Etznab,
                This just goes to show that Klemp
                changes his direction as much as
                Twit did. it's to keep Eckists off-balance
                and confused. He's talking out of
                both both sides of his mouth at the
                same time... like a true KAL agent.

                Many H.I.s see HK's (LEM) outer words
                and the outer EK Works as Limiting
                (Lower) Mental Plane filler. Thus, they
                tend to look to the "pure and higher
                Inner teachings" (of the Mahanta) as
                the true message.

                These inner plane experiences, however,
                is a Catch-22 because they have to have
                Klemp's approval of their "higher" inner
                experiences in order for these to be validated.

                The only way this can be achieved is
                via snail-mail EK publications or by
                HK mentioning their experiences in
                his Seminar talks. Again, this is delayed
                and is another (KAL) Mental Plane form
                of communication.

                Thus, H.I.s, especially, will rationalize
                and pick and choose what guidelines
                and/or EK dogma that is acceptable
                for them to follow. Most H.I.s are just
                treading water, but how long can that
                continue?

                BTW- This Mahanta Consciousness thing...
                what Initiation Level does one have to be
                in order to obtain this? Is it Higher than
                God-Consciousness (Realization)? An H.I.
                has to be a 12th for God-Realization...
                right?

                Prometheus


                etznab wrote:

                "Paradoxical as it may seem, my point in bringing
                out all of this has been to strengthen your faith in the
                Mahanta but not at the expense of making a god
                out of the Mahanta's vehicle, which is the Living ECK
                Master. It's a price we cannot afford to pay. As soon
                as we set someone above us, in potential or in fact,
                we have committed a crime against ourselves: We
                have limited the opportunity for our own unfoldment."

                [Based on: Article (The Real Foundation), by Harold Klemp

                http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/writings.html#ideal

                "We are making an effort to construct a physical history
                of ECKANKAR, looking for actual physical records to
                verify the existence of some of the ECK Masters in a way
                that historians of the future will be able to accept; some-
                thing beyond just the words of one of the Living ECK
                Masters of the past. It will be vital for the survival of
                ECKANKAR as a religious teaching in the future."

                Based on: Harold Klemp, The Secret Teachings, p. 246

                The living Eck Master is a "vehicle" for "Mahanta"?

                We are looking for something "[....] beyond just the
                words of one of the Living ECK Masters of the past"?

                ******************************************************************

                I don't think it wrong for one to state opinions, perspectives,
                ask questions and / or seek to discuss the topic of "Living
                Masters" as vehicles for what has been called "Mahanta".
                Even if it means not making God(s) out of the "vehicles".

                Etznab


                etznab wrote:
                Those were some good points, Prometheus. The topic
                of "mahanta" seems (IMO) central to the teachings of
                Eckankar. However, I'm suspicious about why people
                on the outer would seek to identify with what is surely
                an inner reality living with each & every person / being.

                There are a couple excerpts containing the word
                "mahanta" I wanted to share in order to make a
                point, or two, about what it seems to be. To me.
                What is my perspective / opinion, at least.

                ************************************************************

                Christ Consciousness and the Mahanta Consciousness

                "There is a saying in the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad that
                behind all faces and all people is the Mahanta. [....]"

                http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisSearch.html

                ************************************************************

                Working with Higher Consciousness

                "Many people don't quite understand what it means to
                work with the Mahanta Consciousness. They think merely
                opening up in their consciousness makes them a pure
                channel for the ECK at the highest level of the Mahanta
                Consciousness. If this were true, a Second Initiate of pure
                heart could become the Mahanta, and the outer initiations
                wouldn't count.

                "To fully have the Mahanta Consciousness means to reach
                a certain inner as well as outer initiation. In ECK there is
                always the balance between the inner and the outer. Until we
                have this balance, we have yet to become a Co-worker with
                God. [....]"

                http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisSearch.html

                ************************************************************

                The 2nd paragraph in the Working with Higher Consciousness
                quote is one I want to share a perspective on. First sentence,
                that is.

                "To fully have the Mahanta Consciousness means to reach a
                certain inner as well as outer initiation."

                If the "Mahanta" is the "Inner Master" then why is an outer in-
                iation required to fully have Mahanta Consciousness? In that
                paragraph I quoted, Harold talked about balancing of inner &
                outer. Does this mean "Mahanta" / "Mahanta Consciousness
                has inner and outer elements? Or, the inner awareness of a
                person need be balanced with the outer? In this case, "inner"
                being connected with "mahanta" / "mahanta consciousness"?

                "[....] In ECK there is always the balance between the inner and
                the outer. Until we have this balance, we have yet to become a
                Co-worker with God."

                Maybe this is just another way of saying (If I can quote some
                Metallica lyrics): "Obey your Master! Master!"

                My perspective is that it looks confusing to speak about higher
                awareness / consciousness, an Inner and Outer Master, etc. &
                introduce those ideas from the source of an outer authority. As
                from a form of organized religion with "imperfect" outer writings.

                Those three sections of quotes were from 1985. And yet, there
                was a book (Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, Book One) written back in
                early 1970's attempting to explain the "Mahanta". In my opinion
                the "outer" was NOT the same as the "inner". Plain and simple.
                I believe there was a form of "trinity" spelled out. One of which
                was "Eternal Mahanta".

                So, basically, I think an idea of this "ever-present, higher inner
                awareness" embodied in a human form was inevitable in human
                history. Simply because whoever talked about it would naturally
                be associated with what they were talking about. Otherwise,
                how would they know (what they were talking about)? Authority
                about higher awareness and states of consciousness took on a
                outer form. IMO. And one that differed / differs according to the
                particular religion, dogma, history, etc.

                Does anybody see the potential danger with a trusting in outer
                authority blindly? Accepting everything literally? Perhaps this
                is something that needs to be balanced by the "inner" higher
                awareness / consciousness? Because in this case it makes
                sense to me it's not an outer authority living inside my head,
                not some human being person established inside of myself
                which is the Inner Master and highest state of consciousness
                existing always. That is something on another level altogether
                that doesn't become extracted from inner to the outer where it
                chooses to live in one single human body at a time telling all
                other human bodies that no, it is not there on the outer, no, it
                is on the inner where you need to look. It is the inner where
                the "mahanta" truly resides. And in the same breath implying
                that the "mahanta" is the same as one human being living in
                a physical body. One human being with outer authority to de-
                termine the level of initiation (outer at least) for practically all
                other people in the entire universe!

                It's confusing, IMO. Balancing this "inner" and "outer" thing
                when the two are perceived to be the same, when truly they
                are not the same. In my opinion.

                Is the inner "individual highest consciousness" present with
                all beings going to balance the outer? Or, Is the outer - and in
                the form of other beings independent from the individual - going
                to "balance" (perhaps seek to control) the inner? It might just
                be that words are not sufficient to bring clarity on this topic.
                Or, it might be that outer authority is not sufficient to identify
                itself with a "inner" or "highest state of consciousness" within
                every single individual / being. I suspect.

                Besides, some of the authority about what is "mahanta" can
                be found in books by other authors. Even places where that
                was not the original term in some teachings. Mahatma may
                have been in its place. I'm referring to the writings of Julian J.
                and where he spells out the characteristics of a living master,
                how you can tell one, what is one, etc. etc.

                Some of Johnson's quotes appear in the Eckankar writings,
                but (some of them) changed in some ways. In my opinion. I
                see this as "imperfect outer teachings" and not what came
                from some "being on the inner".

                Etznab

                prometheus wrote:

                The LEM/Mahanta position represents
                an ideal and a goal (for men) to strive
                for in this lifetime. Women will have to
                come back as men (in future lifetimes)
                in order to have a shot at the title. The
                same goes for "Pope" and numerous
                other religious titles. This is the way
                religion works on planet earth.

                People have to elevate one of their own
                in order to feel close to God and have
                him speak for them. Plus, they need
                one voice to speak back to them and
                to relay what God has said. It's less
                confusing that way. Religion is used
                to control the masses so that chaos
                doesn't reign.

                Manmade laws aren't enough, however.
                Mankind needs answers to explain Why
                and How it all began. Of course these
                are what each Soul needs to discover
                on their own. it's private and subjective.
                Actually, this is the way it used to be
                in Eckankar. ECKists weren't to share
                an inner meeting with the Master or
                things of this nature. You didn't want
                to make others feel bad if they hadn't
                had any inner experiences. Of course
                sometimes people lied like Twitchell
                and made things up or embellished
                the stories too. Some people just need
                attention. It got especially bad if a
                new member had an elaborate dream
                experience when the H.I.s hadn't!

                Sometimes religion can give one a jump
                start, (in the beginning), and from there
                a person can begin their own unique Journey
                with the Divine.

                But, the politicians and religionists
                don't want these people to become
                free thinkers. That would lead to Truth
                and the lies might be revealed to others.
                This would be bad for those in power.
                They don't want people to wake-up
                and smell the coffee. Thus, Klemp is
                against drinking coffee! Let's face it...
                the more stupid and fearful people are
                the easier it is to control them.

                Thus, the educational system, especially
                in the U.U., is deprived of qualified
                teachers and text books that are updated
                and revised to reveal a more complete
                and objective view of history. However,
                proficiency tests are taught so that schools
                receive their funding, thus, a real education
                is postponed.

                Those children that are "home schooled"
                due to religious beliefs end up being even
                more out-of-touch with society and much
                less educated.

                This (below) site has comments that
                aren't too far away from fanatical EK
                beliefs and show the hatred, fear, and
                stupidity that religions have propagated
                over time. Klemp's recent comments in
                "Youth Ask a Modern Prophet about Life,
                Love and God" show how religion is used
                to control and stifle individualized behaviour.

                http://www.fstdt.com/Top100.aspx?archive=1

                Prometheus

                etznab wrote:

                I remember reading recently in the Shariyat-
                Ki-Sugmad about "Mahanta".

                The idea of something existing always and
                since the beginning of time was connected
                to the term (see "Eternal Mahanta").

                In my opinion, the idea of something of this
                nature accords more with a higher state of
                consciousness, or what some popularly call
                a "higher self" available to all people & with
                them at all times whether they realize all of
                it, or not, in a single physical lifetime.

                So I naturally asked myself, What has this
                "Mahanta" have to do with being represented
                by any one person above all others? And if a
                living person dies, then what happens to that
                "Eternal Mahanta"? Surely it doesn't die with
                them. I thought. Because that wouldn't be a
                thing always existing. A thing always with a
                person. Like consciousness.

                What I found was that "mahanta", defined by
                Paul Twitchell and Eckankar, was associated
                with a state of consciousness. Therefore, the
                Paul Twitchell / Eckankar definition: Mahanta
                Consciousness.

                In most - if not all - paths similar to illustrated
                Eckankar teachings about a "Living Master" I
                find the emphasis of one particular individual &
                "representation" of God by them. And though
                it might be said "mahanta" gives the initiation,
                it appears to be up to a single individual - ulti-
                mately - at the organization level at least, and
                feedback from other "Higher Initiates" about a
                person and whether they qualify for initiation.

                I think most people can identify with a form of
                "higher self" in the form of consciousness in a
                potential form always existing - whether all of
                it be realized by a single person on Earth at a
                given time, or in a given lifetime.

                What happened in 1971 after Paul Twitchell
                died and before the next Living Master was
                appointed? What happened to "Mahanta Con-
                sciousness"? I don't think anything happened
                to it since it existed since the beginning and
                is existing always. However, some might say
                it defaulted to the "Torch Bearer" Rebazar T.
                I asked myself: Why need it have to go to a
                single person? Is not "higher consciousness",
                even the "highest" present with "God" for all
                time? Why does something like this have to
                be held by a "single individual"? Especially a
                person in the physical body? or other bodies,
                which are "limited" in relation to "God"?

                Does anybody here believe that something like
                "higher consciousness" exists in potential form
                and is available to all persons? I'm not talking
                about what religious dogma says. Eckankar in-
                cluded.

                I ask the former since I wonder if this is what
                "Eckankar" - and paths similar to it - were re-
                ferring to before the worship of Living Masters
                took over. Before the idea of "God in a single
                man" came into vogue. I mean, is it closer to
                reality that "higher consciousness" does not
                exist like a "property" belonging to a single
                person which all other people have to pay for,
                or rent, in order to partake?

                Then there is the "inner master" thing and an
                association of "mahanta" with that. Well, how
                can one person claim rights to it? I mean,
                what happens when that "one person" dies?
                When the physical "outer master" form dies?

                I think this "inner master" / "mahanta" thing
                is something that doesn't belong to a single
                individual and / or religion. I think what does
                belong to the latter is the "DEFINITION" of it.
                Something which hardly qualifies as unlimit-
                ed. IMO.

                All a religion and religious leaders can do is
                serve as "guides" (for better, or for worse),
                the same as anybody else, in my opinion. I
                seriously doubt they own truth to the extent
                of "renting" it, "selling" it when practically all
                religions and religious leaders are inherently
                limited when it comes to what a person has
                to (MUST) do / realize for them self.

                The popularity of religion in history sprang up
                (IMO) when people realized they could profit
                from offering what knowledge existed for the
                subjects of creation, life, death, the afterlife
                and heaven, etc. It did not matter so much if
                the "knowledge" was all true. Stories were a
                source of income, too. IMO. Even in some of
                the temples people employed inventions for
                the manifestation of apparent miracles. What
                they got in return were donations. Of course,
                they didn't tell people the real source of the
                miracles. Otherwise donations might become
                less.

                Etznab

                P.S. Anybody heard a good story lately? I
                might have a use for it :)

                Prometheus wrote:

                Isn't it strange that a "spiritual master"
                (a Mahanta) would still be using an
                outdated photo. This shows that Klemp
                is attached to KAL's lower plane influences.
                This is more proof that HK has fallen
                from SUGMAD's Grace (not that he ever
                had it). Still, for some ECKists Klemp's
                youthful appearance attachment must
                be confusing. Others simply turn a Blind
                Eye to it all... they like the public seeing
                the younger looking photo. It's less
                embarrassing than the real thing. H.I.s,
                especially, live in a state of denial because
                it's comfortable and convenient and
                EK Membership has become habitual
                and ego driven.

                Prometheus
              • prometheus_973
                Hello Etznab, You said, Wasn t the far ancient past like some kind of Golden Age anyway? Compared to today? I don t think so, but it s all relevant to who
                Message 7 of 21 , Dec 20, 2009
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                  Hello Etznab,
                  You said, "Wasn't the far ancient past
                  like some kind of "Golden Age" anyway?
                  Compared to today?"

                  I don't think so, but it's all relevant to
                  who you are and where you are and
                  when you were there, as well as, one's
                  state of mind. Some people are experiencing
                  the "Golden Age" now while others have
                  experienced their "Golden Age" in a past
                  lifetime. It doesn't necessarily have to
                  involve the consciousness of world society...
                  only yours and from your perspective.
                  All else is illusion and a test for Soul.
                  However, the knowledge of true
                  history is an aide for us to expand our
                  current awareness and to help made
                  it better for those who come after us.


                  "Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
                  truth escape us? How might that have happ-
                  ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
                  in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
                  was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
                  untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
                  fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
                  ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
                  blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
                  as literally true."


                  One can look at different stages and timeframes
                  of any society and see where the past was
                  better, in some areas, and worse in other
                  areas.

                  Censorship has always been a control tactic
                  used by those in power and how it's used has
                  varied. ECKankar has censorship too, and most
                  H.I.s know what many of the boundaries are.
                  Why censorship is condoned is related to having
                  an "EK membership card." One has to follow
                  the rules and be a part of the herd. That's why
                  many H.I.s turn a blind-eye and deaf-ear to
                  most of it in order to have ECKankar work for
                  them as it is with any religious belief system.
                  Blind Faith, Narrow Thinking, and the constant
                  use of the Imagination are key for EK to "work."

                  And, after all, Why doesn't Klemp have PT's
                  historic book "Difficulties Of Becoming The
                  Living ECK Master" reprinted by ECKankar?
                  It's because Klemp can't handle the truth
                  that it would reveal nor be able to deal with
                  the questions and doubt that would ensue.
                  Thus, we have censorship which is a negative
                  effect caused by Klemp's negative (lower
                  KAL plane) fears and deceit!

                  Prometheus




                  etznab wrote:
                  [....] Even in some of the temples people employed
                  inventions for the manifestation of apparent miracles.
                  What they got in return were donations. Of course,
                  they didn't tell people the real source of the miracles.
                  Otherwise donations might become less. [....]"

                  Something from the description of the movie I saw
                  where it documented various forms of deception that
                  were employed to make miracles appear to happen
                  using different forms of technology. This is where it
                  appears that science was used to promote ideas of
                  miracle-working gods existing behind the scenes. It
                  was a perversion of not only religion, but of science
                  as well. In my opinion:

                  "Set firmly at the intersection of religion, science
                  and commerce, the latest episode of ANCIENT
                  DISCOVERIES travels to Rome and Greece to
                  explore the commissioning, fabrication and pre-
                  sentation of marvels meant to instill awe and draw
                  hordes of deep-pocketed devotees. You will be
                  amazed to learn how the greatest minds of the age
                  were turned to the construction of what were little
                  more than parlor tricks, albeit enormously sophist-
                  icated and impressive ones."

                  http://shop.history.com/detail.php?p=69989&ecid=SEO-0000046&pa=SEO-SSP

                  I believe that program appeared on the History
                  Channel some time back.

                  Add to this the fact people have fabricated even
                  ancient artifacts to frauduently propagate church
                  history, have told stories that were mythological
                  and / or symbolic - but accepted as literal truth,
                  used teachings and quotes from the past which
                  were fragmentary, little understood, and / or in a
                  language nobody today completely understands,
                  etc., and I see ample reason to be skeptical. To
                  investigate, examine and even question "outer"
                  forms of teachings - from science to religion.

                  Today it appears ironic how religion and science
                  are apparently divided, when many have argued
                  it was not always the case. Col. James Church-
                  ward speaking about "religion" in Lemuria gives
                  an opinion that religion was described in terms
                  a child could understand. Also, that religion and
                  science were not two separate things in the very
                  beginning. In fact, it is my belief, religion was
                  described in "scientific" terms then because the
                  people knew how both were connected.

                  So, when science today is used to investigate,
                  examine and, in some cases expose religious
                  fraud I think it helps to remember how science
                  was not always the record of ignorance about
                  how things work that is in existence today.

                  And, in my opinion, some people from earlier
                  times may have been much more advanced,
                  not less advanced (generally), compared with
                  people living today. Looking at remains of the
                  past through a modern (ignorant of the past)
                  lens and portraying them as less civilized,
                  less knowledgeable and less wise is (IMO) a
                  major insult to history. I'm talking particularly
                  about the ancient and far ancient past. Times
                  when monuments were constructed and tech-
                  nology existed that people today are still try-
                  ing to fathom.

                  Wasn't the far ancient past like some kind of
                  "Golden Age" anyway? Compared to today?
                  Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
                  truth escape us? How might that have happ-
                  ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
                  in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
                  was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
                  untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
                  fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
                  ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
                  blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
                  as literally true.

                  Etznab
                • etznab@aol.com
                  Prometheus, I believe the term mahanta consciousness evolved over time according to descriptions given to it via Eckankar. Like, what was it? 1969 before
                  Message 8 of 21 , Dec 20, 2009
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                    Prometheus,

                    I believe the term "mahanta consciousness"
                    evolved over time according to descriptions
                    given to it via Eckankar. Like, what was it?
                    1969 before Paul mentioned "mahanta" in
                    a wisdom note and The Flute of God? The
                    fuller descriptions of L.E.M. & Mahanta did
                    not appear until the last couple years in the
                    life of Paul Twitchell when he set out to ex-
                    plain them in the Shariyat books, I believe.
                    1970-1971?

                    In some earlier books with Rebazar Tarzs
                    I don't know that the word "mahanta" was
                    even given much mention, if at all. I think
                    the term "spiritual traveler" was mentioned
                    more.

                    Also, I have to consider the appearance in
                    Paul T's early dictionary for the term, and
                    where so many people (some legendary)
                    from history were said to be the mahanta
                    consciousness as vehicle for the Sugmad
                    as it appeared to .... (in so many words),
                    etc.

                    Jesus and Krishna were both mentioned.
                    And yet, Jesus is generally understood -
                    in Eckankar history - to have been a 2nd
                    initiate only.

                    So what initiation level is the "mahanta
                    consciousness"? I couldn't tell you. All I
                    can say (at this point) is the definitions
                    have apparently evolved over the years. I
                    believe that when the teachings became
                    a religion in July 1970 that "mahanta" &
                    L.E.M. merged to become identified as
                    the same thing around that time. Since I
                    suspect Eckankar had to be defined for
                    legal purposes and one of the things they
                    ask you (IMO) is: What is the title of the
                    person in charge & who is that person?

                    This is speculation on my part. Paul did
                    mention at least 3 "levels" of Mahanta -
                    I believe - in the Shariyat. Including the
                    "Eternal Mahanta" and "Historical Maha-
                    anta". All of these merged into the head
                    of the religion and organization of Eck-
                    ankar at some point, if you ask me. It is
                    very hard for the organization to separate
                    them from the leader of Eckankar, IMO,
                    as that might suggest the physical body,
                    the vehicle and leader of Eckankar is but
                    a limited form of "highest consciousness".
                    Remember the last part for the definition
                    for Mahanta Consciousnes used to be:

                    "[....] a state of God consciousness which
                    is beyond the titles given in religions which
                    designate states of consciousness; the
                    highest of all states of consciousness."

                    [See: Paul Twitchell Dictionary]

                    It means not so much of anything to me
                    what appears beside the definition(s) for
                    "mahanta" today unless I can prove that
                    information to be true. I think Paul said &
                    wrote a lot of stuff. I also think he exagg-
                    erated in some places. Besides that I do
                    not see how a highest state of conscious-
                    ness can be identified with a human and
                    limited vehicle. I'll give you an example.
                    Suppose a leader of Eckankar has / had
                    a physical disability of some kind. Even
                    suppose a leader died. How can human
                    beings limited by the physical senses &
                    human mortality equate with a "highest
                    state of consciousness"? Or, the highest?
                    Especially one such as called "Eternal
                    Mahanta" present from the beginning of
                    time?

                    Some things (including the highest of all
                    states of consciousness) became at one
                    point identified with a single human being,
                    IMO. This is what I suspect, at least.

                    Etznab


                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Sun, Dec 20, 2009 2:50 pm
                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp's Vanity - His Wisdom
                    Notes and EK Brochure Photo

                     
                    Hello Etznab,
                    You said, "Wasn't the far ancient past
                    like some kind of "Golden Age" anyway?
                    Compared to today?"

                    I don't think so, but it's all relevant to
                    who you are and where you are and
                    when you were there, as well as, one's
                    state of mind. Some people are experiencing
                    the "Golden Age" now while others have
                    experienced their "Golden Age" in a past
                    lifetime. It doesn't necessarily have to
                    involve the consciousness of world society...
                    only yours and from your perspective.
                    All else is illusion and a test for Soul.
                    However, the knowledge of true
                    history is an aide for us to expand our
                    current awareness and to help made
                    it better for those who come after us.

                    "Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
                    truth escape us? How might that have happ-
                    ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
                    in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
                    was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
                    untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
                    fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
                    ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
                    blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
                    as literally true."

                    One can look at different stages and timeframes
                    of any society and see where the past was
                    better, in some areas, and worse in other
                    areas.

                    Censorship has always been a control tactic
                    used by those in power and how it's used has
                    varied. ECKankar has censorship too, and most
                    H.I.s know what many of the boundaries are.
                    Why censorship is condoned is related to having
                    an "EK membership card." One has to follow
                    the rules and be a part of the herd. That's why
                    many H.I.s turn a blind-eye and deaf-ear to
                    most of it in order to have ECKankar work for
                    them as it is with any religious belief system.
                    Blind Faith, Narrow Thinking, and the constant
                    use of the Imagination are key for EK to "work."

                    And, after all, Why doesn't Klemp have PT's
                    historic book "Difficulties Of Becoming The
                    Living ECK Master" reprinted by ECKankar?
                    It's because Klemp can't handle the truth
                    that it would reveal nor be able to deal with
                    the questions and doubt that would ensue.
                    Thus, we have censorship which is a negative
                    effect caused by Klemp's negative (lower
                    KAL plane) fears and deceit!

                    Prometheus

                    etznab wrote:
                    [....] Even in some of the temples people employed
                    inventions for the manifestation of apparent miracles.
                    What they got in return were donations. Of course,
                    they didn't tell people the real source of the miracles.
                    Otherwise donations might become less. [....]"

                    Something from the description of the movie I saw
                    where it documented various forms of deception that
                    were employed to make miracles appear to happen
                    using different forms of technology. This is where it
                    appears that science was used to promote ideas of
                    miracle-working gods existing behind the scenes. It
                    was a perversion of not only religion, but of science
                    as well. In my opinion:

                    "Set firmly at the intersection of religion, science
                    and commerce, the latest episode of ANCIENT
                    DISCOVERIES travels to Rome and Greece to
                    explore the commissioning, fabrication and pre-
                    sentation of marvels meant to instill awe and draw
                    hordes of deep-pocketed devotees. You will be
                    amazed to learn how the greatest minds of the age
                    were turned to the construction of what were little
                    more than parlor tricks, albeit enormously sophist-
                    icated and impressive ones."

                    http://shop.history.com/detail.php?p=69989&ecid=SEO-0000046&pa=SEO-SSP

                    I believe that program appeared on the History
                    Channel some time back.

                    Add to this the fact people have fabricated even
                    ancient artifacts to frauduently propagate church
                    history, have told stories that were mythological
                    and / or symbolic - but accepted as literal truth,
                    used teachings and quotes from the past which
                    were fragmentary, little understood, and / or in a
                    language nobody today completely understands,
                    etc., and I see ample reason to be skeptical. To
                    investigate, examine and even question "outer"
                    forms of teachings - from science to religion.

                    Today it appears ironic how religion and science
                    are apparently divided, when many have argued
                    it was not always the case. Col. James Church-
                    ward speaking about "religion" in Lemuria gives
                    an opinion that religion was described in terms
                    a child could understand. Also, that religion and
                    science were not two separate things in the very
                    beginning. In fact, it is my belief, religion was
                    described in "scientific" terms then because the
                    people knew how both were connected.

                    So, when science today is used to investigate,
                    examine and, in some cases expose religious
                    fraud I think it helps to remember how science
                    was not always the record of ignorance about
                    how things work that is in existence today.

                    And, in my opinion, some people from earlier
                    times may have been much more advanced,
                    not less advanced (generally), compared with
                    people living today. Looking at remains of the
                    past through a modern (ignorant of the past)
                    lens and portraying them as less civilized,
                    less knowledgeable and less wise is (IMO) a
                    major insult to history. I'm talking particularly
                    about the ancient and far ancient past. Times
                    when monuments were constructed and tech-
                    nology existed that people today are still try-
                    ing to fathom.

                    Wasn't the far ancient past like some kind of
                    "Golden Age" anyway? Compared to today?
                    Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
                    truth escape us? How might that have happ-
                    ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
                    in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
                    was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
                    untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
                    fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
                    ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
                    blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
                    as literally true.

                    Etznab
                  • prometheus_973
                    You make some good points Etznab. I would say that the Roman God Jupiter was an Astral Plane God that was created by the Romans. Then again, I think that all
                    Message 9 of 21 , Dec 20, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      You make some good points Etznab.
                      I would say that the Roman God Jupiter
                      was an Astral Plane God that was created
                      by the Romans. Then again, I think that
                      all of those Gods that religions worship
                      have been created by men. Is it no wonder,
                      then, that in PT's Eckankar Dictionary
                      and in Klemp's 1998 EK Lexicon that they
                      both state that the Roman God "Jupiter
                      was the Mahanta Consciousness to the
                      Romans." Thus, by definition, the Mahanta
                      is also a 2nd Plane God and is, therefore,
                      of the Astral Plane of Consciousness which
                      is ruled by KAL (Satan, devil).

                      Prometheus


                      etznab wrote:

                      rometheus,

                      I believe the term "mahanta consciousness"
                      evolved over time according to descriptions
                      given to it via Eckankar. Like, what was it?
                      1969 before Paul mentioned "mahanta" in
                      a wisdom note and The Flute of God? The
                      fuller descriptions of L.E.M. & Mahanta did
                      not appear until the last couple years in the
                      life of Paul Twitchell when he set out to ex-
                      plain them in the Shariyat books, I believe.
                      1970-1971?

                      In some earlier books with Rebazar Tarzs
                      I don't know that the word "mahanta" was
                      even given much mention, if at all. I think
                      the term "spiritual traveler" was mentioned
                      more.

                      Also, I have to consider the appearance in
                      Paul T's early dictionary for the term, and
                      where so many people (some legendary)
                      from history were said to be the mahanta
                      consciousness as vehicle for the Sugmad
                      as it appeared to .... (in so many words),
                      etc.

                      Jesus and Krishna were both mentioned.
                      And yet, Jesus is generally understood -
                      in Eckankar history - to have been a 2nd
                      initiate only.

                      So what initiation level is the "mahanta
                      consciousness"? I couldn't tell you. All I
                      can say (at this point) is the definitions
                      have apparently evolved over the years. I
                      believe that when the teachings became
                      a religion in July 1970 that "mahanta" &
                      L.E.M. merged to become identified as
                      the same thing around that time. Since I
                      suspect Eckankar had to be defined for
                      legal purposes and one of the things they
                      ask you (IMO) is: What is the title of the
                      person in charge & who is that person?

                      This is speculation on my part. Paul did
                      mention at least 3 "levels" of Mahanta -
                      I believe - in the Shariyat. Including the
                      "Eternal Mahanta" and "Historical Maha-
                      anta". All of these merged into the head
                      of the religion and organization of Eck-
                      ankar at some point, if you ask me. It is
                      very hard for the organization to separate
                      them from the leader of Eckankar, IMO,
                      as that might suggest the physical body,
                      the vehicle and leader of Eckankar is but
                      a limited form of "highest consciousness".
                      Remember the last part for the definition
                      for Mahanta Consciousnes used to be:

                      "[....] a state of God consciousness which
                      is beyond the titles given in religions which
                      designate states of consciousness; the
                      highest of all states of consciousness."

                      [See: Paul Twitchell Dictionary]

                      It means not so much of anything to me
                      what appears beside the definition(s) for
                      "mahanta" today unless I can prove that
                      information to be true. I think Paul said &
                      wrote a lot of stuff. I also think he exagg-
                      erated in some places. Besides that I do
                      not see how a highest state of conscious-
                      ness can be identified with a human and
                      limited vehicle. I'll give you an example.
                      Suppose a leader of Eckankar has / had
                      a physical disability of some kind. Even
                      suppose a leader died. How can human
                      beings limited by the physical senses &
                      human mortality equate with a "highest
                      state of consciousness"? Or, the highest?
                      Especially one such as called "Eternal
                      Mahanta" present from the beginning of
                      time?

                      Some things (including the highest of all
                      states of consciousness) became at one
                      point identified with a single human being,
                      IMO. This is what I suspect, at least.

                      Etznab


                      prometheus wrote:
                      Hello Etznab,
                      You said, "Wasn't the far ancient past
                      like some kind of "Golden Age" anyway?
                      Compared to today?"

                      I don't think so, but it's all relevant to
                      who you are and where you are and
                      when you were there, as well as, one's
                      state of mind. Some people are experiencing
                      the "Golden Age" now while others have
                      experienced their "Golden Age" in a past
                      lifetime. It doesn't necessarily have to
                      involve the consciousness of world society...
                      only yours and from your perspective.
                      All else is illusion and a test for Soul.
                      However, the knowledge of true
                      history is an aide for us to expand our
                      current awareness and to help made
                      it better for those who come after us.

                      "Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
                      truth escape us? How might that have happ-
                      ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
                      in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
                      was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
                      untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
                      fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
                      ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
                      blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
                      as literally true."

                      One can look at different stages and timeframes
                      of any society and see where the past was
                      better, in some areas, and worse in other
                      areas.

                      Censorship has always been a control tactic
                      used by those in power and how it's used has
                      varied. ECKankar has censorship too, and most
                      H.I.s know what many of the boundaries are.
                      Why censorship is condoned is related to having
                      an "EK membership card." One has to follow
                      the rules and be a part of the herd. That's why
                      many H.I.s turn a blind-eye and deaf-ear to
                      most of it in order to have ECKankar work for
                      them as it is with any religious belief system.
                      Blind Faith, Narrow Thinking, and the constant
                      use of the Imagination are key for EK to "work."

                      And, after all, Why doesn't Klemp have PT's
                      historic book "Difficulties Of Becoming The
                      Living ECK Master" reprinted by ECKankar?
                      It's because Klemp can't handle the truth
                      that it would reveal nor be able to deal with
                      the questions and doubt that would ensue.
                      Thus, we have censorship which is a negative
                      effect caused by Klemp's negative (lower
                      KAL plane) fears and deceit!

                      Prometheus

                      etznab wrote:
                      [....] Even in some of the temples people employed
                      inventions for the manifestation of apparent miracles.
                      What they got in return were donations. Of course,
                      they didn't tell people the real source of the miracles.
                      Otherwise donations might become less. [....]"

                      Something from the description of the movie I saw
                      where it documented various forms of deception that
                      were employed to make miracles appear to happen
                      using different forms of technology. This is where it
                      appears that science was used to promote ideas of
                      miracle-working gods existing behind the scenes. It
                      was a perversion of not only religion, but of science
                      as well. In my opinion:

                      "Set firmly at the intersection of religion, science
                      and commerce, the latest episode of ANCIENT
                      DISCOVERIES travels to Rome and Greece to
                      explore the commissioning, fabrication and pre-
                      sentation of marvels meant to instill awe and draw
                      hordes of deep-pocketed devotees. You will be
                      amazed to learn how the greatest minds of the age
                      were turned to the construction of what were little
                      more than parlor tricks, albeit enormously sophist-
                      icated and impressive ones."

                      http://shop.history.com/detail.php?p=69989&ecid=SEO-0000046&pa=SEO-SSP

                      I believe that program appeared on the History
                      Channel some time back.

                      Add to this the fact people have fabricated even
                      ancient artifacts to frauduently propagate church
                      history, have told stories that were mythological
                      and / or symbolic - but accepted as literal truth,
                      used teachings and quotes from the past which
                      were fragmentary, little understood, and / or in a
                      language nobody today completely understands,
                      etc., and I see ample reason to be skeptical. To
                      investigate, examine and even question "outer"
                      forms of teachings - from science to religion.

                      Today it appears ironic how religion and science
                      are apparently divided, when many have argued
                      it was not always the case. Col. James Church-
                      ward speaking about "religion" in Lemuria gives
                      an opinion that religion was described in terms
                      a child could understand. Also, that religion and
                      science were not two separate things in the very
                      beginning. In fact, it is my belief, religion was
                      described in "scientific" terms then because the
                      people knew how both were connected.

                      So, when science today is used to investigate,
                      examine and, in some cases expose religious
                      fraud I think it helps to remember how science
                      was not always the record of ignorance about
                      how things work that is in existence today.

                      And, in my opinion, some people from earlier
                      times may have been much more advanced,
                      not less advanced (generally), compared with
                      people living today. Looking at remains of the
                      past through a modern (ignorant of the past)
                      lens and portraying them as less civilized,
                      less knowledgeable and less wise is (IMO) a
                      major insult to history. I'm talking particularly
                      about the ancient and far ancient past. Times
                      when monuments were constructed and tech-
                      nology existed that people today are still try-
                      ing to fathom.

                      Wasn't the far ancient past like some kind of
                      "Golden Age" anyway? Compared to today?
                      Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
                      truth escape us? How might that have happ-
                      ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
                      in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
                      was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
                      untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
                      fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
                      ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
                      blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
                      as literally true.

                      Etznab
                    • etznab@aol.com
                      The words as it appeared to are interesting to me in those definitions for mahanta consciousness . This suggests to me that the M.C. can appear to people
                      Message 10 of 21 , Dec 21, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        The words "as it appeared to" are interesting to me
                        in those definitions for "mahanta consciousness".

                        This suggests to me that the "M.C." can appear to
                        people under so many different forms. Like Jesus,
                        Krishna, Jupiter, etc.

                        Also interesting was how Krishna was described in
                        somewhat negative terms by both Julian Johnson &
                        Paul Twitchell. At other times the description is not
                        so negative.

                        In about the 1970s though, Paul appears to elaborate
                        further about "mahanta". He describes the "historical"
                        and "eternal" mahantas. I believe. There was a third
                        in the group (trinity) as well.

                        Perhaps Paul Twitchell, Darwin Gross and Harold K.
                        fit into the category of "historical" mahanta? (Right
                        along there with Jesus, Jupiter and Krishna, etc.?)

                        Of course some of those characters are composed
                        of myths and the literal history dubious and far from
                        reality in some places. IMO.

                        BTW, I see no entry for "Eternal Mahanta" and / or
                        "Historical Mahanta" in Harold Klemp & Eckankar's
                        Lexicon. I don't believe they have an entry in Paul T.
                        Eckankar dictionary either.

                        I believe the Eckankar dictionary came out in 1973
                        and after Paul Twitchell was already dead. However,
                        I believe it was in Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad (1970?) that
                        Paul elaborated on "mahanta". I will have to check
                        to see whether Darwin Gross or Harold Klemp wrote
                        about eternal, or historical mahantas and the reason
                        for illustrating them.

                        Etznab


                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Sun, Dec 20, 2009 10:37 pm
                        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp's Vanity - His Wisdom
                        Notes and EK Brochure Photo

                         
                        You make some good points Etznab.
                        I would say that the Roman God Jupiter
                        was an Astral Plane God that was created
                        by the Romans. Then again, I think that
                        all of those Gods that religions worship
                        have been created by men. Is it no wonder,
                        then, that in PT's Eckankar Dictionary
                        and in Klemp's 1998 EK Lexicon that they
                        both state that the Roman God "Jupiter
                        was the Mahanta Consciousness to the
                        Romans." Thus, by definition, the Mahanta
                        is also a 2nd Plane God and is, therefore,
                        of the Astral Plane of Consciousness which
                        is ruled by KAL (Satan, devil).

                        Prometheus

                        etznab wrote:

                        rometheus,

                        I believe the term "mahanta consciousness"
                        evolved over time according to descriptions
                        given to it via Eckankar. Like, what was it?
                        1969 before Paul mentioned "mahanta" in
                        a wisdom note and The Flute of God? The
                        fuller descriptions of L.E.M. & Mahanta did
                        not appear until the last couple years in the
                        life of Paul Twitchell when he set out to ex-
                        plain them in the Shariyat books, I believe.
                        1970-1971?

                        In some earlier books with Rebazar Tarzs
                        I don't know that the word "mahanta" was
                        even given much mention, if at all. I think
                        the term "spiritual traveler" was mentioned
                        more.

                        Also, I have to consider the appearance in
                        Paul T's early dictionary for the term, and
                        where so many people (some legendary)
                        from history were said to be the mahanta
                        consciousness as vehicle for the Sugmad
                        as it appeared to .... (in so many words),
                        etc.

                        Jesus and Krishna were both mentioned.
                        And yet, Jesus is generally understood -
                        in Eckankar history - to have been a 2nd
                        initiate only.

                        So what initiation level is the "mahanta
                        consciousness"? I couldn't tell you. All I
                        can say (at this point) is the definitions
                        have apparently evolved over the years. I
                        believe that when the teachings became
                        a religion in July 1970 that "mahanta" &
                        L.E.M. merged to become identified as
                        the same thing around that time. Since I
                        suspect Eckankar had to be defined for
                        legal purposes and one of the things they
                        ask you (IMO) is: What is the title of the
                        person in charge & who is that person?

                        This is speculation on my part. Paul did
                        mention at least 3 "levels" of Mahanta -
                        I believe - in the Shariyat. Including the
                        "Eternal Mahanta" and "Historical Maha-
                        anta". All of these merged into the head
                        of the religion and organization of Eck-
                        ankar at some point, if you ask me. It is
                        very hard for the organization to separate
                        them from the leader of Eckankar, IMO,
                        as that might suggest the physical body,
                        the vehicle and leader of Eckankar is but
                        a limited form of "highest consciousness".
                        Remember the last part for the definition
                        for Mahanta Consciousnes used to be:

                        "[....] a state of God consciousness which
                        is beyond the titles given in religions which
                        designate states of consciousness; the
                        highest of all states of consciousness."

                        [See: Paul Twitchell Dictionary]

                        It means not so much of anything to me
                        what appears beside the definition(s) for
                        "mahanta" today unless I can prove that
                        information to be true. I think Paul said &
                        wrote a lot of stuff. I also think he exagg-
                        erated in some places. Besides that I do
                        not see how a highest state of conscious-
                        ness can be identified with a human and
                        limited vehicle. I'll give you an example.
                        Suppose a leader of Eckankar has / had
                        a physical disability of some kind. Even
                        suppose a leader died. How can human
                        beings limited by the physical senses &
                        human mortality equate with a "highest
                        state of consciousness"? Or, the highest?
                        Especially one such as called "Eternal
                        Mahanta" present from the beginning of
                        time?

                        Some things (including the highest of all
                        states of consciousness) became at one
                        point identified with a single human being,
                        IMO. This is what I suspect, at least.

                        Etznab

                        prometheus wrote:
                        Hello Etznab,
                        You said, "Wasn't the far ancient past
                        like some kind of "Golden Age" anyway?
                        Compared to today?"

                        I don't think so, but it's all relevant to
                        who you are and where you are and
                        when you were there, as well as, one's
                        state of mind. Some people are experiencing
                        the "Golden Age" now while others have
                        experienced their "Golden Age" in a past
                        lifetime. It doesn't necessarily have to
                        involve the consciousness of world society...
                        only yours and from your perspective.
                        All else is illusion and a test for Soul.
                        However, the knowledge of true
                        history is an aide for us to expand our
                        current awareness and to help made
                        it better for those who come after us.

                        "Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
                        truth escape us? How might that have happ-
                        ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
                        in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
                        was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
                        untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
                        fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
                        ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
                        blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
                        as literally true."

                        One can look at different stages and timeframes
                        of any society and see where the past was
                        better, in some areas, and worse in other
                        areas.

                        Censorship has always been a control tactic
                        used by those in power and how it's used has
                        varied. ECKankar has censorship too, and most
                        H.I.s know what many of the boundaries are.
                        Why censorship is condoned is related to having
                        an "EK membership card." One has to follow
                        the rules and be a part of the herd. That's why
                        many H.I.s turn a blind-eye and deaf-ear to
                        most of it in order to have ECKankar work for
                        them as it is with any religious belief system.
                        Blind Faith, Narrow Thinking, and the constant
                        use of the Imagination are key for EK to "work."

                        And, after all, Why doesn't Klemp have PT's
                        historic book "Difficulties Of Becoming The
                        Living ECK Master" reprinted by ECKankar?
                        It's because Klemp can't handle the truth
                        that it would reveal nor be able to deal with
                        the questions and doubt that would ensue.
                        Thus, we have censorship which is a negative
                        effect caused by Klemp's negative (lower
                        KAL plane) fears and deceit!

                        Prometheus

                        etznab wrote:
                        [....] Even in some of the temples people employed
                        inventions for the manifestation of apparent miracles.
                        What they got in return were donations. Of course,
                        they didn't tell people the real source of the miracles.
                        Otherwise donations might become less. [....]"

                        Something from the description of the movie I saw
                        where it documented various forms of deception that
                        were employed to make miracles appear to happen
                        using different forms of technology. This is where it
                        appears that science was used to promote ideas of
                        miracle-working gods existing behind the scenes. It
                        was a perversion of not only religion, but of science
                        as well. In my opinion:

                        "Set firmly at the intersection of religion, science
                        and commerce, the latest episode of ANCIENT
                        DISCOVERIES travels to Rome and Greece to
                        explore the commissioning, fabrication and pre-
                        sentation of marvels meant to instill awe and draw
                        hordes of deep-pocketed devotees. You will be
                        amazed to learn how the greatest minds of the age
                        were turned to the construction of what were little
                        more than parlor tricks, albeit enormously sophist-
                        icated and impressive ones."

                        http://shop.history.com/detail.php?p=69989&amp;ecid=SEO-0000046&pa=SEO-SSP

                        I believe that program appeared on the History
                        Channel some time back.

                        Add to this the fact people have fabricated even
                        ancient artifacts to frauduently propagate church
                        history, have told stories that were mythological
                        and / or symbolic - but accepted as literal truth,
                        used teachings and quotes from the past which
                        were fragmentary, little understood, and / or in a
                        language nobody today completely understands,
                        etc., and I see ample reason to be skeptical. To
                        investigate, examine and even question "outer"
                        forms of teachings - from science to religion.

                        Today it appears ironic how religion and science
                        are apparently divided, when many have argued
                        it was not always the case. Col. James Church-
                        ward speaking about "religion" in Lemuria gives
                        an opinion that religion was described in terms
                        a child could understand. Also, that religion and
                        science were not two separate things in the very
                        beginning. In fact, it is my belief, religion was
                        described in "scientific" terms then because the
                        people knew how both were connected.

                        So, when science today is used to investigate,
                        examine and, in some cases expose religious
                        fraud I think it helps to remember how science
                        was not always the record of ignorance about
                        how things work that is in existence today.

                        And, in my opinion, some people from earlier
                        times may have been much more advanced,
                        not less advanced (generally), compared with
                        people living today. Looking at remains of the
                        past through a modern (ignorant of the past)
                        lens and portraying them as less civilized,
                        less knowledgeable and less wise is (IMO) a
                        major insult to history. I'm talking particularly
                        about the ancient and far ancient past. Times
                        when monuments were constructed and tech-
                        nology existed that people today are still try-
                        ing to fathom.

                        Wasn't the far ancient past like some kind of
                        "Golden Age" anyway? Compared to today?
                        Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
                        truth escape us? How might that have happ-
                        ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
                        in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
                        was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
                        untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
                        fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
                        ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
                        blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
                        as literally true.

                        Etznab
                      • prometheus_973
                        You re right! Klemp has said that, Jupiter was the Mahanta Consciousness as it appeared to the Romans, or as it appears to EKists via the LEM! BTW- The
                        Message 11 of 21 , Dec 21, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          You're right! Klemp has said that, "Jupiter
                          was the 'Mahanta Consciousness' as it appeared
                          to the Romans," or "as it appears" to EKists
                          via the LEM!

                          BTW- The term you were probably looking for
                          is: "Adi-Mahanta. The primordial Mahanta. The
                          line of Mastership begun with RAMA, the first
                          world Savior, which has been handed down through
                          the centuries by the ECK Masters via Oral Secret
                          Teachings to those who were Initiated into the
                          Order of the Vairagi." (EK Lexicon, 1998, pg. 3)

                          This is interesting because this same "Rama"
                          is an Indian God who HK claims "brought the
                          ECK to India and later to the Aryans, the Fifth
                          Root Race." So, the First Mahanta only came
                          on-the-scene during the time of the Fifth Root
                          Race. And, this title and Consciousness was created
                          by the Vairagi Masters and not by Sugmad directly
                          (pg.172).

                          Now, if someone were to look up "Aryans" in
                          HK's 1998 EK Lexicon they would see that this
                          is the current ruling race. BTW- "RAMA" was not
                          listed as being a Mahanta in the EK Lexicon...
                          only a LEM. Why wouldn't Klemp list him as
                          a (Full) Mahanta? Maybe he's more detailed in
                          the new EK Lexicon and has done another
                          Tweak (reedit).

                          However, the truth is that Twitchell created
                          Eckankar's Mahanta circa Jan. 1, 1969. And,
                          "Mahanta" actually means "monastery head."
                          Marman and many other EKists know this, but
                          for Eckankar to work as a belief system one
                          has to have "faith" and toss reason aside! This
                          is how religions work... No Thinking is needed!

                          Prometheus




                          etznab wrote:

                          The words "as it appeared to" are interesting to me
                          in those definitions for "mahanta consciousness".

                          This suggests to me that the "M.C." can appear to
                          people under so many different forms. Like Jesus,
                          Krishna, Jupiter, etc.

                          Also interesting was how Krishna was described in
                          somewhat negative terms by both Julian Johnson &
                          Paul Twitchell. At other times the description is not
                          so negative.

                          In about the 1970s though, Paul appears to elaborate
                          further about "mahanta". He describes the "historical"
                          and "eternal" mahantas. I believe. There was a third
                          in the group (trinity) as well.

                          Perhaps Paul Twitchell, Darwin Gross and Harold K.
                          fit into the category of "historical" mahanta? (Right
                          along there with Jesus, Jupiter and Krishna, etc.?)

                          Of course some of those characters are composed
                          of myths and the literal history dubious and far from
                          reality in some places. IMO.

                          BTW, I see no entry for "Eternal Mahanta" and / or
                          "Historical Mahanta" in Harold Klemp & Eckankar's
                          Lexicon. I don't believe they have an entry in Paul T.
                          Eckankar dictionary either.

                          I believe the Eckankar dictionary came out in 1973
                          and after Paul Twitchell was already dead. However,
                          I believe it was in Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad (1970?) that
                          Paul elaborated on "mahanta". I will have to check
                          to see whether Darwin Gross or Harold Klemp wrote
                          about eternal, or historical mahantas and the reason
                          for illustrating them.

                          Etznab


                          prometheus wrote:
                          You make some good points Etznab.
                          I would say that the Roman God Jupiter
                          was an Astral Plane God that was created
                          by the Romans. Then again, I think that
                          all of those Gods that religions worship
                          have been created by men. Is it no wonder,
                          then, that in PT's Eckankar Dictionary
                          and in Klemp's 1998 EK Lexicon that they
                          both state that the Roman God "Jupiter
                          was the Mahanta Consciousness to the
                          Romans." Thus, by definition, the Mahanta
                          is also a 2nd Plane God and is, therefore,
                          of the Astral Plane of Consciousness which
                          is ruled by KAL (Satan, devil).

                          Prometheus

                          etznab wrote:

                          rometheus,

                          I believe the term "mahanta consciousness"
                          evolved over time according to descriptions
                          given to it via Eckankar. Like, what was it?
                          1969 before Paul mentioned "mahanta" in
                          a wisdom note and The Flute of God? The
                          fuller descriptions of L.E.M. & Mahanta did
                          not appear until the last couple years in the
                          life of Paul Twitchell when he set out to ex-
                          plain them in the Shariyat books, I believe.
                          1970-1971?

                          In some earlier books with Rebazar Tarzs
                          I don't know that the word "mahanta" was
                          even given much mention, if at all. I think
                          the term "spiritual traveler" was mentioned
                          more.

                          Also, I have to consider the appearance in
                          Paul T's early dictionary for the term, and
                          where so many people (some legendary)
                          from history were said to be the mahanta
                          consciousness as vehicle for the Sugmad
                          as it appeared to .... (in so many words),
                          etc.

                          Jesus and Krishna were both mentioned.
                          And yet, Jesus is generally understood -
                          in Eckankar history - to have been a 2nd
                          initiate only.

                          So what initiation level is the "mahanta
                          consciousness"? I couldn't tell you. All I
                          can say (at this point) is the definitions
                          have apparently evolved over the years. I
                          believe that when the teachings became
                          a religion in July 1970 that "mahanta" &
                          L.E.M. merged to become identified as
                          the same thing around that time. Since I
                          suspect Eckankar had to be defined for
                          legal purposes and one of the things they
                          ask you (IMO) is: What is the title of the
                          person in charge & who is that person?

                          This is speculation on my part. Paul did
                          mention at least 3 "levels" of Mahanta -
                          I believe - in the Shariyat. Including the
                          "Eternal Mahanta" and "Historical Maha-
                          anta". All of these merged into the head
                          of the religion and organization of Eck-
                          ankar at some point, if you ask me. It is
                          very hard for the organization to separate
                          them from the leader of Eckankar, IMO,
                          as that might suggest the physical body,
                          the vehicle and leader of Eckankar is but
                          a limited form of "highest consciousness".
                          Remember the last part for the definition
                          for Mahanta Consciousnes used to be:

                          "[....] a state of God consciousness which
                          is beyond the titles given in religions which
                          designate states of consciousness; the
                          highest of all states of consciousness."

                          [See: Paul Twitchell Dictionary]

                          It means not so much of anything to me
                          what appears beside the definition(s) for
                          "mahanta" today unless I can prove that
                          information to be true. I think Paul said &
                          wrote a lot of stuff. I also think he exagg-
                          erated in some places. Besides that I do
                          not see how a highest state of conscious-
                          ness can be identified with a human and
                          limited vehicle. I'll give you an example.
                          Suppose a leader of Eckankar has / had
                          a physical disability of some kind. Even
                          suppose a leader died. How can human
                          beings limited by the physical senses &
                          human mortality equate with a "highest
                          state of consciousness"? Or, the highest?
                          Especially one such as called "Eternal
                          Mahanta" present from the beginning of
                          time?

                          Some things (including the highest of all
                          states of consciousness) became at one
                          point identified with a single human being,
                          IMO. This is what I suspect, at least.

                          Etznab

                          prometheus wrote:
                          Hello Etznab,
                          You said, "Wasn't the far ancient past
                          like some kind of "Golden Age" anyway?
                          Compared to today?"

                          I don't think so, but it's all relevant to
                          who you are and where you are and
                          when you were there, as well as, one's
                          state of mind. Some people are experiencing
                          the "Golden Age" now while others have
                          experienced their "Golden Age" in a past
                          lifetime. It doesn't necessarily have to
                          involve the consciousness of world society...
                          only yours and from your perspective.
                          All else is illusion and a test for Soul.
                          However, the knowledge of true
                          history is an aide for us to expand our
                          current awareness and to help made
                          it better for those who come after us.

                          "Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
                          truth escape us? How might that have happ-
                          ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
                          in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
                          was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
                          untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
                          fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
                          ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
                          blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
                          as literally true."

                          One can look at different stages and timeframes
                          of any society and see where the past was
                          better, in some areas, and worse in other
                          areas.

                          Censorship has always been a control tactic
                          used by those in power and how it's used has
                          varied. ECKankar has censorship too, and most
                          H.I.s know what many of the boundaries are.
                          Why censorship is condoned is related to having
                          an "EK membership card." One has to follow
                          the rules and be a part of the herd. That's why
                          many H.I.s turn a blind-eye and deaf-ear to
                          most of it in order to have ECKankar work for
                          them as it is with any religious belief system.
                          Blind Faith, Narrow Thinking, and the constant
                          use of the Imagination are key for EK to "work."

                          And, after all, Why doesn't Klemp have PT's
                          historic book "Difficulties Of Becoming The
                          Living ECK Master" reprinted by ECKankar?
                          It's because Klemp can't handle the truth
                          that it would reveal nor be able to deal with
                          the questions and doubt that would ensue.
                          Thus, we have censorship which is a negative
                          effect caused by Klemp's negative (lower
                          KAL plane) fears and deceit!

                          Prometheus

                          etznab wrote:
                          [....] Even in some of the temples people employed
                          inventions for the manifestation of apparent miracles.
                          What they got in return were donations. Of course,
                          they didn't tell people the real source of the miracles.
                          Otherwise donations might become less. [....]"

                          Something from the description of the movie I saw
                          where it documented various forms of deception that
                          were employed to make miracles appear to happen
                          using different forms of technology. This is where it
                          appears that science was used to promote ideas of
                          miracle-working gods existing behind the scenes. It
                          was a perversion of not only religion, but of science
                          as well. In my opinion:

                          "Set firmly at the intersection of religion, science
                          and commerce, the latest episode of ANCIENT
                          DISCOVERIES travels to Rome and Greece to
                          explore the commissioning, fabrication and pre-
                          sentation of marvels meant to instill awe and draw
                          hordes of deep-pocketed devotees. You will be
                          amazed to learn how the greatest minds of the age
                          were turned to the construction of what were little
                          more than parlor tricks, albeit enormously sophist-
                          icated and impressive ones."

                          http://shop.history.com/detail.php?p=69989&amp;ecid=SEO-0000046&pa=SEO-SSP

                          I believe that program appeared on the History
                          Channel some time back.

                          Add to this the fact people have fabricated even
                          ancient artifacts to frauduently propagate church
                          history, have told stories that were mythological
                          and / or symbolic - but accepted as literal truth,
                          used teachings and quotes from the past which
                          were fragmentary, little understood, and / or in a
                          language nobody today completely understands,
                          etc., and I see ample reason to be skeptical. To
                          investigate, examine and even question "outer"
                          forms of teachings - from science to religion.

                          Today it appears ironic how religion and science
                          are apparently divided, when many have argued
                          it was not always the case. Col. James Church-
                          ward speaking about "religion" in Lemuria gives
                          an opinion that religion was described in terms
                          a child could understand. Also, that religion and
                          science were not two separate things in the very
                          beginning. In fact, it is my belief, religion was
                          described in "scientific" terms then because the
                          people knew how both were connected.

                          So, when science today is used to investigate,
                          examine and, in some cases expose religious
                          fraud I think it helps to remember how science
                          was not always the record of ignorance about
                          how things work that is in existence today.

                          And, in my opinion, some people from earlier
                          times may have been much more advanced,
                          not less advanced (generally), compared with
                          people living today. Looking at remains of the
                          past through a modern (ignorant of the past)
                          lens and portraying them as less civilized,
                          less knowledgeable and less wise is (IMO) a
                          major insult to history. I'm talking particularly
                          about the ancient and far ancient past. Times
                          when monuments were constructed and tech-
                          nology existed that people today are still try-
                          ing to fathom.

                          Wasn't the far ancient past like some kind of
                          "Golden Age" anyway? Compared to today?
                          Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
                          truth escape us? How might that have happ-
                          ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
                          in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
                          was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
                          untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
                          fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
                          ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
                          blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
                          as literally true.

                          Etznab
                        • prometheus_973
                          Hello All, FIRST- Let s move on from the ECK chela nut/fanatic that s been sending out negative emails to ESA site members. We all know that as above, so
                          Message 12 of 21 , Jan 6, 2010
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hello All,
                            FIRST- Let's move on from the ECK
                            chela nut/fanatic that's been sending
                            out negative emails to ESA site members.
                            We all know that "as above, so below"
                            is a direct factor and cause of his imbalance.

                            ******
                            You're right Etznab! Klemp has said that,
                            "Jupiter was the 'Mahanta Consciousness'
                            as it appeared to the Romans," or "as it
                            appears" to EKists via the LEM!

                            BTW- The term you were probably looking for
                            is: "Adi-Mahanta. The primordial Mahanta. The
                            line of Mastership begun with RAMA, the first
                            world Savior, which has been handed down through
                            the centuries by the ECK Masters via Oral Secret
                            Teachings to those who were Initiated into the
                            Order of the Vairagi." (EK Lexicon, 1998, pg. 3)

                            This is interesting because this same "Rama"
                            is an Indian God who HK claims "brought the
                            ECK to India and later to the Aryans, the Fifth
                            Root Race." So, the First Mahanta only came
                            on-the-scene during the time of the Fifth Root
                            Race. And, this title and Consciousness was created
                            by the Vairagi Masters and not by Sugmad directly
                            (pg.172).

                            Now, if someone were to look up "Aryans" in
                            HK's 1998 EK Lexicon they would see that this
                            is the current ruling race. BTW- "RAMA" was not
                            listed as being a Mahanta in the EK Lexicon...
                            only a LEM. Why wouldn't Klemp list him as
                            a (Full) Mahanta? Maybe he's more detailed in
                            the new EK Lexicon and has done another
                            Tweak (reedit).

                            However, the truth is that Twitchell created
                            Eckankar's Mahanta circa Jan. 1, 1969. And,
                            "Mahanta" actually means "monastery head."
                            Marman and many other EKists know this, but
                            for Eckankar to work as a belief system one
                            has to have "faith" and toss reason aside! This
                            is how religions work... No Thinking is needed!

                            Prometheus




                            etznab wrote:

                            The words "as it appeared to" are interesting to me
                            in those definitions for "mahanta consciousness".

                            This suggests to me that the "M.C." can appear to
                            people under so many different forms. Like Jesus,
                            Krishna, Jupiter, etc.

                            Also interesting was how Krishna was described in
                            somewhat negative terms by both Julian Johnson &
                            Paul Twitchell. At other times the description is not
                            so negative.

                            In about the 1970s though, Paul appears to elaborate
                            further about "mahanta". He describes the "historical"
                            and "eternal" mahantas. I believe. There was a third
                            in the group (trinity) as well.

                            Perhaps Paul Twitchell, Darwin Gross and Harold K.
                            fit into the category of "historical" mahanta? (Right
                            along there with Jesus, Jupiter and Krishna, etc.?)

                            Of course some of those characters are composed
                            of myths and the literal history dubious and far from
                            reality in some places. IMO.

                            BTW, I see no entry for "Eternal Mahanta" and / or
                            "Historical Mahanta" in Harold Klemp & Eckankar's
                            Lexicon. I don't believe they have an entry in Paul T.
                            Eckankar dictionary either.

                            I believe the Eckankar dictionary came out in 1973
                            and after Paul Twitchell was already dead. However,
                            I believe it was in Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad (1970?) that
                            Paul elaborated on "mahanta". I will have to check
                            to see whether Darwin Gross or Harold Klemp wrote
                            about eternal, or historical mahantas and the reason
                            for illustrating them.

                            Etznab


                            prometheus wrote:
                            You make some good points Etznab.
                            I would say that the Roman God Jupiter
                            was an Astral Plane God that was created
                            by the Romans. Then again, I think that
                            all of those Gods that religions worship
                            have been created by men. Is it no wonder,
                            then, that in PT's Eckankar Dictionary
                            and in Klemp's 1998 EK Lexicon that they
                            both state that the Roman God "Jupiter
                            was the Mahanta Consciousness to the
                            Romans." Thus, by definition, the Mahanta
                            is also a 2nd Plane God and is, therefore,
                            of the Astral Plane of Consciousness which
                            is ruled by KAL (Satan, devil).

                            Prometheus

                            etznab wrote:

                            rometheus,

                            I believe the term "mahanta consciousness"
                            evolved over time according to descriptions
                            given to it via Eckankar. Like, what was it?
                            1969 before Paul mentioned "mahanta" in
                            a wisdom note and The Flute of God? The
                            fuller descriptions of L.E.M. & Mahanta did
                            not appear until the last couple years in the
                            life of Paul Twitchell when he set out to ex-
                            plain them in the Shariyat books, I believe.
                            1970-1971?

                            In some earlier books with Rebazar Tarzs
                            I don't know that the word "mahanta" was
                            even given much mention, if at all. I think
                            the term "spiritual traveler" was mentioned
                            more.

                            Also, I have to consider the appearance in
                            Paul T's early dictionary for the term, and
                            where so many people (some legendary)
                            from history were said to be the mahanta
                            consciousness as vehicle for the Sugmad
                            as it appeared to .... (in so many words),
                            etc.

                            Jesus and Krishna were both mentioned.
                            And yet, Jesus is generally understood -
                            in Eckankar history - to have been a 2nd
                            initiate only.

                            So what initiation level is the "mahanta
                            consciousness"? I couldn't tell you. All I
                            can say (at this point) is the definitions
                            have apparently evolved over the years. I
                            believe that when the teachings became
                            a religion in July 1970 that "mahanta" &
                            L.E.M. merged to become identified as
                            the same thing around that time. Since I
                            suspect Eckankar had to be defined for
                            legal purposes and one of the things they
                            ask you (IMO) is: What is the title of the
                            person in charge & who is that person?

                            This is speculation on my part. Paul did
                            mention at least 3 "levels" of Mahanta -
                            I believe - in the Shariyat. Including the
                            "Eternal Mahanta" and "Historical Maha-
                            anta". All of these merged into the head
                            of the religion and organization of Eck-
                            ankar at some point, if you ask me. It is
                            very hard for the organization to separate
                            them from the leader of Eckankar, IMO,
                            as that might suggest the physical body,
                            the vehicle and leader of Eckankar is but
                            a limited form of "highest consciousness".
                            Remember the last part for the definition
                            for Mahanta Consciousnes used to be:

                            "[....] a state of God consciousness which
                            is beyond the titles given in religions which
                            designate states of consciousness; the
                            highest of all states of consciousness."

                            [See: Paul Twitchell Dictionary]

                            It means not so much of anything to me
                            what appears beside the definition(s) for
                            "mahanta" today unless I can prove that
                            information to be true. I think Paul said &
                            wrote a lot of stuff. I also think he exagg-
                            erated in some places. Besides that I do
                            not see how a highest state of conscious-
                            ness can be identified with a human and
                            limited vehicle. I'll give you an example.
                            Suppose a leader of Eckankar has / had
                            a physical disability of some kind. Even
                            suppose a leader died. How can human
                            beings limited by the physical senses &
                            human mortality equate with a "highest
                            state of consciousness"? Or, the highest?
                            Especially one such as called "Eternal
                            Mahanta" present from the beginning of
                            time?

                            Some things (including the highest of all
                            states of consciousness) became at one
                            point identified with a single human being,
                            IMO. This is what I suspect, at least.

                            Etznab

                            prometheus wrote:
                            Hello Etznab,
                            You said, "Wasn't the far ancient past
                            like some kind of "Golden Age" anyway?
                            Compared to today?"

                            I don't think so, but it's all relevant to
                            who you are and where you are and
                            when you were there, as well as, one's
                            state of mind. Some people are experiencing
                            the "Golden Age" now while others have
                            experienced their "Golden Age" in a past
                            lifetime. It doesn't necessarily have to
                            involve the consciousness of world society...
                            only yours and from your perspective.
                            All else is illusion and a test for Soul.
                            However, the knowledge of true
                            history is an aide for us to expand our
                            current awareness and to help made
                            it better for those who come after us.

                            "Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
                            truth escape us? How might that have happ-
                            ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
                            in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
                            was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
                            untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
                            fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
                            ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
                            blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
                            as literally true."

                            One can look at different stages and timeframes
                            of any society and see where the past was
                            better, in some areas, and worse in other
                            areas.

                            Censorship has always been a control tactic
                            used by those in power and how it's used has
                            varied. ECKankar has censorship too, and most
                            H.I.s know what many of the boundaries are.
                            Why censorship is condoned is related to having
                            an "EK membership card." One has to follow
                            the rules and be a part of the herd. That's why
                            many H.I.s turn a blind-eye and deaf-ear to
                            most of it in order to have ECKankar work for
                            them as it is with any religious belief system.
                            Blind Faith, Narrow Thinking, and the constant
                            use of the Imagination are key for EK to "work."

                            And, after all, Why doesn't Klemp have PT's
                            historic book "Difficulties Of Becoming The
                            Living ECK Master" reprinted by ECKankar?
                            It's because Klemp can't handle the truth
                            that it would reveal nor be able to deal with
                            the questions and doubt that would ensue.
                            Thus, we have censorship which is a negative
                            effect caused by Klemp's negative (lower
                            KAL plane) fears and deceit!

                            Prometheus

                            etznab wrote:
                            [....] Even in some of the temples people employed
                            inventions for the manifestation of apparent miracles.
                            What they got in return were donations. Of course,
                            they didn't tell people the real source of the miracles.
                            Otherwise donations might become less. [....]"

                            Something from the description of the movie I saw
                            where it documented various forms of deception that
                            were employed to make miracles appear to happen
                            using different forms of technology. This is where it
                            appears that science was used to promote ideas of
                            miracle-working gods existing behind the scenes. It
                            was a perversion of not only religion, but of science
                            as well. In my opinion:

                            "Set firmly at the intersection of religion, science
                            and commerce, the latest episode of ANCIENT
                            DISCOVERIES travels to Rome and Greece to
                            explore the commissioning, fabrication and pre-
                            sentation of marvels meant to instill awe and draw
                            hordes of deep-pocketed devotees. You will be
                            amazed to learn how the greatest minds of the age
                            were turned to the construction of what were little
                            more than parlor tricks, albeit enormously sophist-
                            icated and impressive ones."

                            http://shop.history.com/detail.php?p=69989&amp;ecid=SEO-0000046&pa=SEO-SSP

                            I believe that program appeared on the History
                            Channel some time back.

                            Add to this the fact people have fabricated even
                            ancient artifacts to frauduently propagate church
                            history, have told stories that were mythological
                            and / or symbolic - but accepted as literal truth,
                            used teachings and quotes from the past which
                            were fragmentary, little understood, and / or in a
                            language nobody today completely understands,
                            etc., and I see ample reason to be skeptical. To
                            investigate, examine and even question "outer"
                            forms of teachings - from science to religion.

                            Today it appears ironic how religion and science
                            are apparently divided, when many have argued
                            it was not always the case. Col. James Church-
                            ward speaking about "religion" in Lemuria gives
                            an opinion that religion was described in terms
                            a child could understand. Also, that religion and
                            science were not two separate things in the very
                            beginning. In fact, it is my belief, religion was
                            described in "scientific" terms then because the
                            people knew how both were connected.

                            So, when science today is used to investigate,
                            examine and, in some cases expose religious
                            fraud I think it helps to remember how science
                            was not always the record of ignorance about
                            how things work that is in existence today.

                            And, in my opinion, some people from earlier
                            times may have been much more advanced,
                            not less advanced (generally), compared with
                            people living today. Looking at remains of the
                            past through a modern (ignorant of the past)
                            lens and portraying them as less civilized,
                            less knowledgeable and less wise is (IMO) a
                            major insult to history. I'm talking particularly
                            about the ancient and far ancient past. Times
                            when monuments were constructed and tech-
                            nology existed that people today are still try-
                            ing to fathom.

                            Wasn't the far ancient past like some kind of
                            "Golden Age" anyway? Compared to today?
                            Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
                            truth escape us? How might that have happ-
                            ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
                            in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
                            was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
                            untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
                            fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
                            ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
                            blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
                            as literally true.

                            Etznab
                          • prometheus_973
                            Hello All, This is simply more proof of Eckankar s deceptions. It s come to my attention that Klemp is still using a 10-15 old photo as his Official Photo
                            Message 13 of 21 , Nov 3, 2011
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                              Hello All,
                              This is simply more proof
                              of Eckankar's deceptions.

                              It's come to my attention
                              that Klemp is still using
                              a 10-15 old photo as his
                              "Official Photo" which is
                              to be displayed at ECK
                              functions and EK Centers.

                              WHY? Really, why is this
                              being done?

                              Isn't Klemp comfortable
                              with his aging?

                              On the front page of the
                              September, 2011 "The
                              Mystic World of ECKankar"
                              is a current photo of Klemp.

                              However, if one looks at
                              the back page where "The
                              Wisdom Notes" are given
                              there is the older "Official
                              Photo" depicting a younger
                              looking Klemp.

                              Is the real and present day
                              photo depicting the Outer
                              LEM while the "Official (past)
                              Photo" depicting the Inner
                              Master/Mahanta? Is that
                              Klemp's rationale for this
                              subliminal trickery?

                              Really, I don't think that this
                              issue has ever been addressed
                              since ECKists aren't permitted
                              to ask such questions without
                              risking reprisals by their RESAs
                              or via the ESC (Klemp).

                              But, in Eckankar, what is reality?
                              Is it anything one wants to deny
                              and imagine differently as you
                              like it?

                              This photo switch is simply
                              another trick that Klemp uses
                              to cloud the minds and reasoning
                              abilities of his followers so they
                              can feel good about their religion
                              of pretend Masters, Initiations,
                              and Planes of Consciousness.

                              This denial of the obvious is
                              why ECKists are comfortable
                              and passive sheep and/or are
                              chickens in the EK hen house.
                              However, on the other hand,
                              ECKists are stressed out as
                              well.

                              ECKists must be Vahanas/
                              Missionary's and give Service
                              to Klemp (and Lip Service to
                              the public) in order to advance
                              and/or to maintain their status
                              as official spokespersons.

                              The Lip Service is when they
                              give the "official" presentations
                              which omit facts with the guise
                              of being "too much spiritual
                              food" for the seeker to handle.

                              Come on, just tell them how
                              long it will probably take them
                              to become free of Karma or
                              reach the 5th initiation! And,
                              how many more years (and
                              what's required) it should
                              take them to reach the 7th
                              initiation. Then tell them
                              how long it will be for them
                              to reach the 8th initiation...
                              maybe the RESA would know
                              that answer. LOL!

                              Prometheus



                              From Dec, 2009:
                              Isn't it strange that a "spiritual
                              master" (a Mahanta) would still
                              be using an outdated photo.
                              This shows that Klemp is attached
                              to KAL's lower plane influences.
                              This is more proof that HK has
                              fallen from SUGMAD's Grace (not
                              that he ever had it). Still, for some
                              ECKists Klemp's youthful appearance
                              attachment must be confusing.
                              Others simply turn a Blind Eye
                              to it all... they like the public
                              seeing the younger looking photo.
                              It's less embarrassing than the
                              real thing. H.I.s, especially, live
                              in a state of denial because it's
                              comfortable and convenient
                              and EK Membership has become
                              habitual and ego driven.

                              {Note: Annual EK Membership
                              is actually required in order to
                              receive and keep initiations. The
                              reenrolling of one's membership
                              must become habitual or risk
                              losing the fake connection with
                              the Inner via the outer monetary
                              membership requirement. Thus,
                              EK membership is ego, as well as,
                              fear driven.}

                              Prometheus
                            • Diana Stanley
                              maybe he should try botox or a face lift. It would be a miricale that he got his youth back! Diana
                              Message 14 of 21 , Nov 4, 2011
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                                maybe he should try botox or a face lift. It would be a miricale that he got his youth back!
                                Diana

                                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Hello All,
                                > This is simply more proof
                                > of Eckankar's deceptions.
                                >
                                > It's come to my attention
                                > that Klemp is still using
                                > a 10-15 old photo as his
                                > "Official Photo" which is
                                > to be displayed at ECK
                                > functions and EK Centers.
                                >
                                > WHY? Really, why is this
                                > being done?
                                >
                                > Isn't Klemp comfortable
                                > with his aging?
                                >
                                > On the front page of the
                                > September, 2011 "The
                                > Mystic World of ECKankar"
                                > is a current photo of Klemp.
                                >
                                > However, if one looks at
                                > the back page where "The
                                > Wisdom Notes" are given
                                > there is the older "Official
                                > Photo" depicting a younger
                                > looking Klemp.
                                >
                                > Is the real and present day
                                > photo depicting the Outer
                                > LEM while the "Official (past)
                                > Photo" depicting the Inner
                                > Master/Mahanta? Is that
                                > Klemp's rationale for this
                                > subliminal trickery?
                                >
                                > Really, I don't think that this
                                > issue has ever been addressed
                                > since ECKists aren't permitted
                                > to ask such questions without
                                > risking reprisals by their RESAs
                                > or via the ESC (Klemp).
                                >
                                > But, in Eckankar, what is reality?
                                > Is it anything one wants to deny
                                > and imagine differently as you
                                > like it?
                                >
                                > This photo switch is simply
                                > another trick that Klemp uses
                                > to cloud the minds and reasoning
                                > abilities of his followers so they
                                > can feel good about their religion
                                > of pretend Masters, Initiations,
                                > and Planes of Consciousness.
                                >
                                > This denial of the obvious is
                                > why ECKists are comfortable
                                > and passive sheep and/or are
                                > chickens in the EK hen house.
                                > However, on the other hand,
                                > ECKists are stressed out as
                                > well.
                                >
                                > ECKists must be Vahanas/
                                > Missionary's and give Service
                                > to Klemp (and Lip Service to
                                > the public) in order to advance
                                > and/or to maintain their status
                                > as official spokespersons.
                                >
                                > The Lip Service is when they
                                > give the "official" presentations
                                > which omit facts with the guise
                                > of being "too much spiritual
                                > food" for the seeker to handle.
                                >
                                > Come on, just tell them how
                                > long it will probably take them
                                > to become free of Karma or
                                > reach the 5th initiation! And,
                                > how many more years (and
                                > what's required) it should
                                > take them to reach the 7th
                                > initiation. Then tell them
                                > how long it will be for them
                                > to reach the 8th initiation...
                                > maybe the RESA would know
                                > that answer. LOL!
                                >
                                > Prometheus
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > From Dec, 2009:
                                > Isn't it strange that a "spiritual
                                > master" (a Mahanta) would still
                                > be using an outdated photo.
                                > This shows that Klemp is attached
                                > to KAL's lower plane influences.
                                > This is more proof that HK has
                                > fallen from SUGMAD's Grace (not
                                > that he ever had it). Still, for some
                                > ECKists Klemp's youthful appearance
                                > attachment must be confusing.
                                > Others simply turn a Blind Eye
                                > to it all... they like the public
                                > seeing the younger looking photo.
                                > It's less embarrassing than the
                                > real thing. H.I.s, especially, live
                                > in a state of denial because it's
                                > comfortable and convenient
                                > and EK Membership has become
                                > habitual and ego driven.
                                >
                                > {Note: Annual EK Membership
                                > is actually required in order to
                                > receive and keep initiations. The
                                > reenrolling of one's membership
                                > must become habitual or risk
                                > losing the fake connection with
                                > the Inner via the outer monetary
                                > membership requirement. Thus,
                                > EK membership is ego, as well as,
                                > fear driven.}
                                >
                                > Prometheus
                                >
                              • prometheus_973
                                Hello Diana and All, At one time Klemp tried contact lens but eventually switched back to glasses. I m told he received some criticism, from H.I.s via chelas,
                                Message 15 of 21 , Nov 4, 2011
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Hello Diana and All,
                                  At one time Klemp tried
                                  contact lens but eventually
                                  switched back to glasses.
                                  I'm told he received some
                                  criticism, from H.I.s via
                                  chelas, that contacts were
                                  more of a vanity issue than
                                  a sight/vision issue. ECKists
                                  can't have their mealy looking
                                  Mahanta project a fraudulent
                                  appearance because that
                                  would indicate other frauds
                                  might be taking place and
                                  perpetuated. LOL!

                                  However, I've also read that
                                  contacts can offer people
                                  better vision than glasses,
                                  but maybe that was just
                                  a slanted PR story to sell
                                  a product like Eckankar
                                  does.

                                  I'm assuming that this is
                                  why Klemp won't dye his
                                  hair or get hair plugs. I
                                  wonder what else Klemp
                                  does, or doesn't do, that
                                  is natural? Boxers, briefs,
                                  or commando?

                                  Prometheus

                                  dianastanley wrote:
                                  maybe he should try botox
                                  or a face lift. It would be
                                  a miricale that he got his
                                  youth back!
                                  Diana


                                  <prometheus wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hello All,
                                  > This is simply more proof
                                  > of Eckankar's deceptions.
                                  >
                                  > It's come to my attention
                                  > that Klemp is still using
                                  > a 10-15 old photo as his
                                  > "Official Photo" which is
                                  > to be displayed at ECK
                                  > functions and EK Centers.
                                  >
                                  > WHY? Really, why is this
                                  > being done?
                                  >
                                  > Isn't Klemp comfortable
                                  > with his aging?
                                  >
                                  > On the front page of the
                                  > September, 2011 "The
                                  > Mystic World of ECKankar"
                                  > is a current photo of Klemp.
                                  >
                                  > However, if one looks at
                                  > the back page where "The
                                  > Wisdom Notes" are given
                                  > there is the older "Official
                                  > Photo" depicting a younger
                                  > looking Klemp.
                                  >
                                  > Is the real and present day
                                  > photo depicting the Outer
                                  > LEM while the "Official (past)
                                  > Photo" depicting the Inner
                                  > Master/Mahanta? Is that
                                  > Klemp's rationale for this
                                  > subliminal trickery?
                                  >
                                  > Really, I don't think that this
                                  > issue has ever been addressed
                                  > since ECKists aren't permitted
                                  > to ask such questions without
                                  > risking reprisals by their RESAs
                                  > or via the ESC (Klemp).
                                  >
                                  > But, in Eckankar, what is reality?
                                  > Is it anything one wants to deny
                                  > and imagine differently as you
                                  > like it?
                                  >
                                  > This photo switch is simply
                                  > another trick that Klemp uses
                                  > to cloud the minds and reasoning
                                  > abilities of his followers so they
                                  > can feel good about their religion
                                  > of pretend Masters, Initiations,
                                  > and Planes of Consciousness.
                                  >
                                  > This denial of the obvious is
                                  > why ECKists are comfortable
                                  > and passive sheep and/or are
                                  > chickens in the EK hen house.
                                  > However, on the other hand,
                                  > ECKists are stressed out as
                                  > well.
                                  >
                                  > ECKists must be Vahanas/
                                  > Missionary's and give Service
                                  > to Klemp (and Lip Service to
                                  > the public) in order to advance
                                  > and/or to maintain their status
                                  > as official spokespersons.
                                  >
                                  > The Lip Service is when they
                                  > give the "official" presentations
                                  > which omit facts with the guise
                                  > of being "too much spiritual
                                  > food" for the seeker to handle.
                                  >
                                  > Come on, just tell them how
                                  > long it will probably take them
                                  > to become free of Karma or
                                  > reach the 5th initiation! And,
                                  > how many more years (and
                                  > what's required) it should
                                  > take them to reach the 7th
                                  > initiation. Then tell them
                                  > how long it will be for them
                                  > to reach the 8th initiation...
                                  > maybe the RESA would know
                                  > that answer. LOL!
                                  >
                                  > Prometheus
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > From Dec, 2009:
                                  > Isn't it strange that a "spiritual
                                  > master" (a Mahanta) would still
                                  > be using an outdated photo.
                                  > This shows that Klemp is attached
                                  > to KAL's lower plane influences.
                                  > This is more proof that HK has
                                  > fallen from SUGMAD's Grace (not
                                  > that he ever had it). Still, for some
                                  > ECKists Klemp's youthful appearance
                                  > attachment must be confusing.
                                  > Others simply turn a Blind Eye
                                  > to it all... they like the public
                                  > seeing the younger looking photo.
                                  > It's less embarrassing than the
                                  > real thing. H.I.s, especially, live
                                  > in a state of denial because it's
                                  > comfortable and convenient
                                  > and EK Membership has become
                                  > habitual and ego driven.
                                  >
                                  > {Note: Annual EK Membership
                                  > is actually required in order to
                                  > receive and keep initiations. The
                                  > reenrolling of one's membership
                                  > must become habitual or risk
                                  > losing the fake connection with
                                  > the Inner via the outer monetary
                                  > membership requirement. Thus,
                                  > EK membership is ego, as well as,
                                  > fear driven.}
                                  >
                                  > Prometheus
                                • Diana Stanley
                                  I don t understand why he cares what he looks like he never hardly ever makes public appearences. Maybe he has a double to do all public pr work!!! Diana
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Nov 6, 2011
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    I don't understand why he cares what he looks like he never hardly ever makes public appearences. Maybe he has a double to do all public pr work!!!
                                    Diana



                                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hello Diana and All,
                                    > At one time Klemp tried
                                    > contact lens but eventually
                                    > switched back to glasses.
                                    > I'm told he received some
                                    > criticism, from H.I.s via
                                    > chelas, that contacts were
                                    > more of a vanity issue than
                                    > a sight/vision issue. ECKists
                                    > can't have their mealy looking
                                    > Mahanta project a fraudulent
                                    > appearance because that
                                    > would indicate other frauds
                                    > might be taking place and
                                    > perpetuated. LOL!
                                    >
                                    > However, I've also read that
                                    > contacts can offer people
                                    > better vision than glasses,
                                    > but maybe that was just
                                    > a slanted PR story to sell
                                    > a product like Eckankar
                                    > does.
                                    >
                                    > I'm assuming that this is
                                    > why Klemp won't dye his
                                    > hair or get hair plugs. I
                                    > wonder what else Klemp
                                    > does, or doesn't do, that
                                    > is natural? Boxers, briefs,
                                    > or commando?
                                    >
                                    > Prometheus
                                    >
                                    > dianastanley wrote:
                                    > maybe he should try botox
                                    > or a face lift. It would be
                                    > a miricale that he got his
                                    > youth back!
                                    > Diana
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > <prometheus wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Hello All,
                                    > > This is simply more proof
                                    > > of Eckankar's deceptions.
                                    > >
                                    > > It's come to my attention
                                    > > that Klemp is still using
                                    > > a 10-15 old photo as his
                                    > > "Official Photo" which is
                                    > > to be displayed at ECK
                                    > > functions and EK Centers.
                                    > >
                                    > > WHY? Really, why is this
                                    > > being done?
                                    > >
                                    > > Isn't Klemp comfortable
                                    > > with his aging?
                                    > >
                                    > > On the front page of the
                                    > > September, 2011 "The
                                    > > Mystic World of ECKankar"
                                    > > is a current photo of Klemp.
                                    > >
                                    > > However, if one looks at
                                    > > the back page where "The
                                    > > Wisdom Notes" are given
                                    > > there is the older "Official
                                    > > Photo" depicting a younger
                                    > > looking Klemp.
                                    > >
                                    > > Is the real and present day
                                    > > photo depicting the Outer
                                    > > LEM while the "Official (past)
                                    > > Photo" depicting the Inner
                                    > > Master/Mahanta? Is that
                                    > > Klemp's rationale for this
                                    > > subliminal trickery?
                                    > >
                                    > > Really, I don't think that this
                                    > > issue has ever been addressed
                                    > > since ECKists aren't permitted
                                    > > to ask such questions without
                                    > > risking reprisals by their RESAs
                                    > > or via the ESC (Klemp).
                                    > >
                                    > > But, in Eckankar, what is reality?
                                    > > Is it anything one wants to deny
                                    > > and imagine differently as you
                                    > > like it?
                                    > >
                                    > > This photo switch is simply
                                    > > another trick that Klemp uses
                                    > > to cloud the minds and reasoning
                                    > > abilities of his followers so they
                                    > > can feel good about their religion
                                    > > of pretend Masters, Initiations,
                                    > > and Planes of Consciousness.
                                    > >
                                    > > This denial of the obvious is
                                    > > why ECKists are comfortable
                                    > > and passive sheep and/or are
                                    > > chickens in the EK hen house.
                                    > > However, on the other hand,
                                    > > ECKists are stressed out as
                                    > > well.
                                    > >
                                    > > ECKists must be Vahanas/
                                    > > Missionary's and give Service
                                    > > to Klemp (and Lip Service to
                                    > > the public) in order to advance
                                    > > and/or to maintain their status
                                    > > as official spokespersons.
                                    > >
                                    > > The Lip Service is when they
                                    > > give the "official" presentations
                                    > > which omit facts with the guise
                                    > > of being "too much spiritual
                                    > > food" for the seeker to handle.
                                    > >
                                    > > Come on, just tell them how
                                    > > long it will probably take them
                                    > > to become free of Karma or
                                    > > reach the 5th initiation! And,
                                    > > how many more years (and
                                    > > what's required) it should
                                    > > take them to reach the 7th
                                    > > initiation. Then tell them
                                    > > how long it will be for them
                                    > > to reach the 8th initiation...
                                    > > maybe the RESA would know
                                    > > that answer. LOL!
                                    > >
                                    > > Prometheus
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > From Dec, 2009:
                                    > > Isn't it strange that a "spiritual
                                    > > master" (a Mahanta) would still
                                    > > be using an outdated photo.
                                    > > This shows that Klemp is attached
                                    > > to KAL's lower plane influences.
                                    > > This is more proof that HK has
                                    > > fallen from SUGMAD's Grace (not
                                    > > that he ever had it). Still, for some
                                    > > ECKists Klemp's youthful appearance
                                    > > attachment must be confusing.
                                    > > Others simply turn a Blind Eye
                                    > > to it all... they like the public
                                    > > seeing the younger looking photo.
                                    > > It's less embarrassing than the
                                    > > real thing. H.I.s, especially, live
                                    > > in a state of denial because it's
                                    > > comfortable and convenient
                                    > > and EK Membership has become
                                    > > habitual and ego driven.
                                    > >
                                    > > {Note: Annual EK Membership
                                    > > is actually required in order to
                                    > > receive and keep initiations. The
                                    > > reenrolling of one's membership
                                    > > must become habitual or risk
                                    > > losing the fake connection with
                                    > > the Inner via the outer monetary
                                    > > membership requirement. Thus,
                                    > > EK membership is ego, as well as,
                                    > > fear driven.}
                                    > >
                                    > > Prometheus
                                    >
                                  • prometheus_973
                                    Hello Diana and All, Klemp cares about the more youthful image he s projecting in the PR brochures and his official pic displayed in EK Centers and at Intros
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Nov 7, 2011
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Hello Diana and All,
                                      Klemp cares about
                                      the more youthful
                                      image he's projecting
                                      in the PR brochures
                                      and his official pic
                                      displayed in EK Centers
                                      and at Intros because
                                      it appeals to younger
                                      people more than his
                                      old real life image does!

                                      Thus, more suckers
                                      are attracted to the
                                      bait and switch packaging
                                      versus the reality which
                                      would repel them. LOL!

                                      At a Seminar (after
                                      seeing Klemp) they
                                      simply decide to stay
                                      until he gets done talking.
                                      Klemp was never too
                                      photogenic anyway but
                                      now he's really getting
                                      pathetic looking... as
                                      a Mahanta/God!

                                      Really, how can Eckists
                                      believe in or talk about
                                      the ECK Masters like
                                      Rebazar, who are
                                      supposedly over 500
                                      years old and still maintain
                                      a physical body, when
                                      Klemp claims to be the
                                      greatest and most spiritually
                                      advanced Mahanta ever!
                                      Yet, he's wasting away!
                                      It doesn't make sense if
                                      it was true! The truth is
                                      there are No ECK Masters
                                      and Klemp is a phony!

                                      Pretend can be fun and
                                      the imagination can make
                                      the mundane magical,
                                      it's an escape, and it can
                                      be used (as lies) to explain
                                      things in mythological and
                                      unscientific terms because
                                      science can't explain it
                                      away with concrete analysis
                                      and proven facts. Besides,
                                      would most people listen?
                                      Therefore, the ECK Masters
                                      are as imagined as the
                                      characters in Harry Potter,
                                      or the Lord of the Rings,
                                      et al.

                                      Thus, if Eckankar was for
                                      real Klemp wouldn't be
                                      aging and rapidly! He'd
                                      look like Rebazar or one
                                      of the other portraits of
                                      those fake ECK Masters.

                                      Funny that the artist who
                                      did the latest ECK Master
                                      portraits made them look
                                      younger than Klemp's real-
                                      time current photo (not the
                                      embellished portrait)! Just
                                      go the eckankar.org and
                                      see for yourself! It's comical!

                                      Prometheus


                                      dianastanley wrote:
                                      I don't understand why
                                      he cares what he looks
                                      like he never hardly ever
                                      makes public appearences.
                                      Maybe he has a double
                                      to do all public pr work!!!
                                      Diana




                                      <prometheus wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Hello Diana and All,
                                      > At one time Klemp tried
                                      > contact lens but eventually
                                      > switched back to glasses.
                                      > I'm told he received some
                                      > criticism, from H.I.s via
                                      > chelas, that contacts were
                                      > more of a vanity issue than
                                      > a sight/vision issue. ECKists
                                      > can't have their mealy looking
                                      > Mahanta project a fraudulent
                                      > appearance because that
                                      > would indicate other frauds
                                      > might be taking place and
                                      > perpetuated. LOL!
                                      >
                                      > However, I've also read that
                                      > contacts can offer people
                                      > better vision than glasses,
                                      > but maybe that was just
                                      > a slanted PR story to sell
                                      > a product like Eckankar
                                      > does.
                                      >
                                      > I'm assuming that this is
                                      > why Klemp won't dye his
                                      > hair or get hair plugs. I
                                      > wonder what else Klemp
                                      > does, or doesn't do, that
                                      > is natural? Boxers, briefs,
                                      > or commando?
                                      >
                                      > Prometheus
                                      >
                                      > dianastanley wrote:
                                      > maybe he should try botox
                                      > or a face lift. It would be
                                      > a miricale that he got his
                                      > youth back!
                                      > Diana
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > <prometheus wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Hello All,
                                      > > This is simply more proof
                                      > > of Eckankar's deceptions.
                                      > >
                                      > > It's come to my attention
                                      > > that Klemp is still using
                                      > > a 10-15 old photo as his
                                      > > "Official Photo" which is
                                      > > to be displayed at ECK
                                      > > functions and EK Centers.
                                      > >
                                      > > WHY? Really, why is this
                                      > > being done?
                                      > >
                                      > > Isn't Klemp comfortable
                                      > > with his aging?
                                      > >
                                      > > On the front page of the
                                      > > September, 2011 "The
                                      > > Mystic World of ECKankar"
                                      > > is a current photo of Klemp.
                                      > >
                                      > > However, if one looks at
                                      > > the back page where "The
                                      > > Wisdom Notes" are given
                                      > > there is the older "Official
                                      > > Photo" depicting a younger
                                      > > looking Klemp.
                                      > >
                                      > > Is the real and present day
                                      > > photo depicting the Outer
                                      > > LEM while the "Official (past)
                                      > > Photo" depicting the Inner
                                      > > Master/Mahanta? Is that
                                      > > Klemp's rationale for this
                                      > > subliminal trickery?
                                      > >
                                      > > Really, I don't think that this
                                      > > issue has ever been addressed
                                      > > since ECKists aren't permitted
                                      > > to ask such questions without
                                      > > risking reprisals by their RESAs
                                      > > or via the ESC (Klemp).
                                      > >
                                      > > But, in Eckankar, what is reality?
                                      > > Is it anything one wants to deny
                                      > > and imagine differently as you
                                      > > like it?
                                      > >
                                      > > This photo switch is simply
                                      > > another trick that Klemp uses
                                      > > to cloud the minds and reasoning
                                      > > abilities of his followers so they
                                      > > can feel good about their religion
                                      > > of pretend Masters, Initiations,
                                      > > and Planes of Consciousness.
                                      > >
                                      > > This denial of the obvious is
                                      > > why ECKists are comfortable
                                      > > and passive sheep and/or are
                                      > > chickens in the EK hen house.
                                      > > However, on the other hand,
                                      > > ECKists are stressed out as
                                      > > well.
                                      > >
                                      > > ECKists must be Vahanas/
                                      > > Missionary's and give Service
                                      > > to Klemp (and Lip Service to
                                      > > the public) in order to advance
                                      > > and/or to maintain their status
                                      > > as official spokespersons.
                                      > >
                                      > > The Lip Service is when they
                                      > > give the "official" presentations
                                      > > which omit facts with the guise
                                      > > of being "too much spiritual
                                      > > food" for the seeker to handle.
                                      > >
                                      > > Come on, just tell them how
                                      > > long it will probably take them
                                      > > to become free of Karma or
                                      > > reach the 5th initiation! And,
                                      > > how many more years (and
                                      > > what's required) it should
                                      > > take them to reach the 7th
                                      > > initiation. Then tell them
                                      > > how long it will be for them
                                      > > to reach the 8th initiation...
                                      > > maybe the RESA would know
                                      > > that answer. LOL!
                                      > >
                                      > > Prometheus
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > From Dec, 2009:
                                      > > Isn't it strange that a "spiritual
                                      > > master" (a Mahanta) would still
                                      > > be using an outdated photo.
                                      > > This shows that Klemp is attached
                                      > > to KAL's lower plane influences.
                                      > > This is more proof that HK has
                                      > > fallen from SUGMAD's Grace (not
                                      > > that he ever had it). Still, for some
                                      > > ECKists Klemp's youthful appearance
                                      > > attachment must be confusing.
                                      > > Others simply turn a Blind Eye
                                      > > to it all... they like the public
                                      > > seeing the younger looking photo.
                                      > > It's less embarrassing than the
                                      > > real thing. H.I.s, especially, live
                                      > > in a state of denial because it's
                                      > > comfortable and convenient
                                      > > and EK Membership has become
                                      > > habitual and ego driven.
                                      > >
                                      > > {Note: Annual EK Membership
                                      > > is actually required in order to
                                      > > receive and keep initiations. The
                                      > > reenrolling of one's membership
                                      > > must become habitual or risk
                                      > > losing the fake connection with
                                      > > the Inner via the outer monetary
                                      > > membership requirement. Thus,
                                      > > EK membership is ego, as well as,
                                      > > fear driven.}
                                      > >
                                      > > Prometheus
                                    • Diana Stanley
                                      Eckankar is being reduced to sillyness. People who are trully seeking spiritual enlightenment will begin to leave. Those that are comfortable with authority
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Nov 9, 2011
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                                        Eckankar is being reduced to sillyness. People who are trully seeking spiritual enlightenment will begin to leave. Those that are comfortable with authority and rules and regulations will hang on.
                                        Much like the old churches some people feel safe if they are told how to get to heven and avoid hell.
                                        I imagin Harold is trying to incorporate the Eck teachings with christian beliefs as that is Harolds background.
                                        I am afraid it is a marrage that is doomed to failure. Hopefully sooner than later.
                                        Diana

                                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Hello Diana and All,
                                        > Klemp cares about
                                        > the more youthful
                                        > image he's projecting
                                        > in the PR brochures
                                        > and his official pic
                                        > displayed in EK Centers
                                        > and at Intros because
                                        > it appeals to younger
                                        > people more than his
                                        > old real life image does!
                                        >
                                        > Thus, more suckers
                                        > are attracted to the
                                        > bait and switch packaging
                                        > versus the reality which
                                        > would repel them. LOL!
                                        >
                                        > At a Seminar (after
                                        > seeing Klemp) they
                                        > simply decide to stay
                                        > until he gets done talking.
                                        > Klemp was never too
                                        > photogenic anyway but
                                        > now he's really getting
                                        > pathetic looking... as
                                        > a Mahanta/God!
                                        >
                                        > Really, how can Eckists
                                        > believe in or talk about
                                        > the ECK Masters like
                                        > Rebazar, who are
                                        > supposedly over 500
                                        > years old and still maintain
                                        > a physical body, when
                                        > Klemp claims to be the
                                        > greatest and most spiritually
                                        > advanced Mahanta ever!
                                        > Yet, he's wasting away!
                                        > It doesn't make sense if
                                        > it was true! The truth is
                                        > there are No ECK Masters
                                        > and Klemp is a phony!
                                        >
                                        > Pretend can be fun and
                                        > the imagination can make
                                        > the mundane magical,
                                        > it's an escape, and it can
                                        > be used (as lies) to explain
                                        > things in mythological and
                                        > unscientific terms because
                                        > science can't explain it
                                        > away with concrete analysis
                                        > and proven facts. Besides,
                                        > would most people listen?
                                        > Therefore, the ECK Masters
                                        > are as imagined as the
                                        > characters in Harry Potter,
                                        > or the Lord of the Rings,
                                        > et al.
                                        >
                                        > Thus, if Eckankar was for
                                        > real Klemp wouldn't be
                                        > aging and rapidly! He'd
                                        > look like Rebazar or one
                                        > of the other portraits of
                                        > those fake ECK Masters.
                                        >
                                        > Funny that the artist who
                                        > did the latest ECK Master
                                        > portraits made them look
                                        > younger than Klemp's real-
                                        > time current photo (not the
                                        > embellished portrait)! Just
                                        > go the eckankar.org and
                                        > see for yourself! It's comical!
                                        >
                                        > Prometheus
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > dianastanley wrote:
                                        > I don't understand why
                                        > he cares what he looks
                                        > like he never hardly ever
                                        > makes public appearences.
                                        > Maybe he has a double
                                        > to do all public pr work!!!
                                        > Diana
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > <prometheus wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Hello Diana and All,
                                        > > At one time Klemp tried
                                        > > contact lens but eventually
                                        > > switched back to glasses.
                                        > > I'm told he received some
                                        > > criticism, from H.I.s via
                                        > > chelas, that contacts were
                                        > > more of a vanity issue than
                                        > > a sight/vision issue. ECKists
                                        > > can't have their mealy looking
                                        > > Mahanta project a fraudulent
                                        > > appearance because that
                                        > > would indicate other frauds
                                        > > might be taking place and
                                        > > perpetuated. LOL!
                                        > >
                                        > > However, I've also read that
                                        > > contacts can offer people
                                        > > better vision than glasses,
                                        > > but maybe that was just
                                        > > a slanted PR story to sell
                                        > > a product like Eckankar
                                        > > does.
                                        > >
                                        > > I'm assuming that this is
                                        > > why Klemp won't dye his
                                        > > hair or get hair plugs. I
                                        > > wonder what else Klemp
                                        > > does, or doesn't do, that
                                        > > is natural? Boxers, briefs,
                                        > > or commando?
                                        > >
                                        > > Prometheus
                                        > >
                                        > > dianastanley wrote:
                                        > > maybe he should try botox
                                        > > or a face lift. It would be
                                        > > a miricale that he got his
                                        > > youth back!
                                        > > Diana
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > <prometheus wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Hello All,
                                        > > > This is simply more proof
                                        > > > of Eckankar's deceptions.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > It's come to my attention
                                        > > > that Klemp is still using
                                        > > > a 10-15 old photo as his
                                        > > > "Official Photo" which is
                                        > > > to be displayed at ECK
                                        > > > functions and EK Centers.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > WHY? Really, why is this
                                        > > > being done?
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Isn't Klemp comfortable
                                        > > > with his aging?
                                        > > >
                                        > > > On the front page of the
                                        > > > September, 2011 "The
                                        > > > Mystic World of ECKankar"
                                        > > > is a current photo of Klemp.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > However, if one looks at
                                        > > > the back page where "The
                                        > > > Wisdom Notes" are given
                                        > > > there is the older "Official
                                        > > > Photo" depicting a younger
                                        > > > looking Klemp.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Is the real and present day
                                        > > > photo depicting the Outer
                                        > > > LEM while the "Official (past)
                                        > > > Photo" depicting the Inner
                                        > > > Master/Mahanta? Is that
                                        > > > Klemp's rationale for this
                                        > > > subliminal trickery?
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Really, I don't think that this
                                        > > > issue has ever been addressed
                                        > > > since ECKists aren't permitted
                                        > > > to ask such questions without
                                        > > > risking reprisals by their RESAs
                                        > > > or via the ESC (Klemp).
                                        > > >
                                        > > > But, in Eckankar, what is reality?
                                        > > > Is it anything one wants to deny
                                        > > > and imagine differently as you
                                        > > > like it?
                                        > > >
                                        > > > This photo switch is simply
                                        > > > another trick that Klemp uses
                                        > > > to cloud the minds and reasoning
                                        > > > abilities of his followers so they
                                        > > > can feel good about their religion
                                        > > > of pretend Masters, Initiations,
                                        > > > and Planes of Consciousness.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > This denial of the obvious is
                                        > > > why ECKists are comfortable
                                        > > > and passive sheep and/or are
                                        > > > chickens in the EK hen house.
                                        > > > However, on the other hand,
                                        > > > ECKists are stressed out as
                                        > > > well.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > ECKists must be Vahanas/
                                        > > > Missionary's and give Service
                                        > > > to Klemp (and Lip Service to
                                        > > > the public) in order to advance
                                        > > > and/or to maintain their status
                                        > > > as official spokespersons.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > The Lip Service is when they
                                        > > > give the "official" presentations
                                        > > > which omit facts with the guise
                                        > > > of being "too much spiritual
                                        > > > food" for the seeker to handle.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Come on, just tell them how
                                        > > > long it will probably take them
                                        > > > to become free of Karma or
                                        > > > reach the 5th initiation! And,
                                        > > > how many more years (and
                                        > > > what's required) it should
                                        > > > take them to reach the 7th
                                        > > > initiation. Then tell them
                                        > > > how long it will be for them
                                        > > > to reach the 8th initiation...
                                        > > > maybe the RESA would know
                                        > > > that answer. LOL!
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Prometheus
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > From Dec, 2009:
                                        > > > Isn't it strange that a "spiritual
                                        > > > master" (a Mahanta) would still
                                        > > > be using an outdated photo.
                                        > > > This shows that Klemp is attached
                                        > > > to KAL's lower plane influences.
                                        > > > This is more proof that HK has
                                        > > > fallen from SUGMAD's Grace (not
                                        > > > that he ever had it). Still, for some
                                        > > > ECKists Klemp's youthful appearance
                                        > > > attachment must be confusing.
                                        > > > Others simply turn a Blind Eye
                                        > > > to it all... they like the public
                                        > > > seeing the younger looking photo.
                                        > > > It's less embarrassing than the
                                        > > > real thing. H.I.s, especially, live
                                        > > > in a state of denial because it's
                                        > > > comfortable and convenient
                                        > > > and EK Membership has become
                                        > > > habitual and ego driven.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > {Note: Annual EK Membership
                                        > > > is actually required in order to
                                        > > > receive and keep initiations. The
                                        > > > reenrolling of one's membership
                                        > > > must become habitual or risk
                                        > > > losing the fake connection with
                                        > > > the Inner via the outer monetary
                                        > > > membership requirement. Thus,
                                        > > > EK membership is ego, as well as,
                                        > > > fear driven.}
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Prometheus
                                        >
                                      • prometheus_973
                                        Hello Diana and All, Yes, the silliness began with Twitchell. That s why Gail and Patti were always giggling about good old fuddy-duddy Paul and his conman
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Nov 9, 2011
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Hello Diana and All,
                                          Yes, the silliness began
                                          with Twitchell. That's
                                          why Gail and Patti were
                                          always giggling about
                                          good old fuddy-duddy
                                          Paul and his conman
                                          antics, some, to hide
                                          his age [the joke was
                                          on them because Paul
                                          was older than they
                                          thought]. Other embellishments
                                          were used to promote
                                          himself... and yet this
                                          doesn't seem to be a
                                          problem for longtime
                                          H.I.s. When I found out
                                          about the foundation
                                          of the EK teachings and
                                          the liar Twitchell I just
                                          couldn't remain a follower.
                                          Truth means too much
                                          to me. Ask yourself,
                                          "What is Truth?"

                                          Klemp is as much the liar
                                          as Twitchell. He rationalizes
                                          it away by thinking that people
                                          need something to believe
                                          in and Eckankar gives them
                                          something that is, at least,
                                          less physically harmful to
                                          the world than many other
                                          religions. Of course, that's
                                          only because Eckankar doesn't
                                          have the members, money,
                                          and power that other religions
                                          have. Other than that it's
                                          a fraud and a waste of time.
                                          It creates delusional thinking
                                          and this inhibits clarity of
                                          mind and true, individual,
                                          "spiritual" progress.

                                          Prometheus



                                          "Diana Stanley" wrote:
                                          Eckankar is being reduced
                                          to sillyness. People who
                                          are trully seeking spiritual
                                          enlightenment will begin
                                          to leave. Those that are
                                          comfortable with authority
                                          and rules and regulations
                                          will hang on.

                                          Much like the old churches
                                          some people feel safe if
                                          they are told how to get
                                          to heven and avoid hell.
                                          I imagin Harold is trying
                                          to incorporate the Eck
                                          teachings with christian
                                          beliefs as that is Harolds
                                          background.

                                          I am afraid it is a marrage
                                          that is doomed to failure.
                                          Hopefully sooner than later.
                                          Diana


                                          <prometheus wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Hello Diana and All,
                                          > Klemp cares about
                                          > the more youthful
                                          > image he's projecting
                                          > in the PR brochures
                                          > and his official pic
                                          > displayed in EK Centers
                                          > and at Intros because
                                          > it appeals to younger
                                          > people more than his
                                          > old real life image does!
                                          >
                                          > Thus, more suckers
                                          > are attracted to the
                                          > bait and switch packaging
                                          > versus the reality which
                                          > would repel them. LOL!
                                          >
                                          > At a Seminar (after
                                          > seeing Klemp) they
                                          > simply decide to stay
                                          > until he gets done talking.
                                          > Klemp was never too
                                          > photogenic anyway but
                                          > now he's really getting
                                          > pathetic looking... as
                                          > a Mahanta/God!
                                          >
                                          > Really, how can Eckists
                                          > believe in or talk about
                                          > the ECK Masters like
                                          > Rebazar, who are
                                          > supposedly over 500
                                          > years old and still maintain
                                          > a physical body, when
                                          > Klemp claims to be the
                                          > greatest and most spiritually
                                          > advanced Mahanta ever!
                                          > Yet, he's wasting away!
                                          > It doesn't make sense if
                                          > it was true! The truth is
                                          > there are No ECK Masters
                                          > and Klemp is a phony!
                                          >
                                          > Pretend can be fun and
                                          > the imagination can make
                                          > the mundane magical,
                                          > it's an escape, and it can
                                          > be used (as lies) to explain
                                          > things in mythological and
                                          > unscientific terms because
                                          > science can't explain it
                                          > away with concrete analysis
                                          > and proven facts. Besides,
                                          > would most people listen?
                                          > Therefore, the ECK Masters
                                          > are as imagined as the
                                          > characters in Harry Potter,
                                          > or the Lord of the Rings,
                                          > et al.
                                          >
                                          > Thus, if Eckankar was for
                                          > real Klemp wouldn't be
                                          > aging and rapidly! He'd
                                          > look like Rebazar or one
                                          > of the other portraits of
                                          > those fake ECK Masters.
                                          >
                                          > Funny that the artist who
                                          > did the latest ECK Master
                                          > portraits made them look
                                          > younger than Klemp's real-
                                          > time current photo (not the
                                          > embellished portrait)! Just
                                          > go the eckankar.org and
                                          > see for yourself! It's comical!
                                          >
                                          > Prometheus
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > dianastanley wrote:
                                          > I don't understand why
                                          > he cares what he looks
                                          > like he never hardly ever
                                          > makes public appearences.
                                          > Maybe he has a double
                                          > to do all public pr work!!!
                                          > Diana
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > <prometheus wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > Hello Diana and All,
                                          > > At one time Klemp tried
                                          > > contact lens but eventually
                                          > > switched back to glasses.
                                          > > I'm told he received some
                                          > > criticism, from H.I.s via
                                          > > chelas, that contacts were
                                          > > more of a vanity issue than
                                          > > a sight/vision issue. ECKists
                                          > > can't have their mealy looking
                                          > > Mahanta project a fraudulent
                                          > > appearance because that
                                          > > would indicate other frauds
                                          > > might be taking place and
                                          > > perpetuated. LOL!
                                          > >
                                          > > However, I've also read that
                                          > > contacts can offer people
                                          > > better vision than glasses,
                                          > > but maybe that was just
                                          > > a slanted PR story to sell
                                          > > a product like Eckankar
                                          > > does.
                                          > >
                                          > > I'm assuming that this is
                                          > > why Klemp won't dye his
                                          > > hair or get hair plugs. I
                                          > > wonder what else Klemp
                                          > > does, or doesn't do, that
                                          > > is natural? Boxers, briefs,
                                          > > or commando?
                                          > >
                                          > > Prometheus
                                          > >
                                          > > dianastanley wrote:
                                          > > maybe he should try botox
                                          > > or a face lift. It would be
                                          > > a miricale that he got his
                                          > > youth back!
                                          > > Diana
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > <prometheus wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Hello All,
                                          > > > This is simply more proof
                                          > > > of Eckankar's deceptions.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > It's come to my attention
                                          > > > that Klemp is still using
                                          > > > a 10-15 old photo as his
                                          > > > "Official Photo" which is
                                          > > > to be displayed at ECK
                                          > > > functions and EK Centers.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > WHY? Really, why is this
                                          > > > being done?
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Isn't Klemp comfortable
                                          > > > with his aging?
                                          > > >
                                          > > > On the front page of the
                                          > > > September, 2011 "The
                                          > > > Mystic World of ECKankar"
                                          > > > is a current photo of Klemp.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > However, if one looks at
                                          > > > the back page where "The
                                          > > > Wisdom Notes" are given
                                          > > > there is the older "Official
                                          > > > Photo" depicting a younger
                                          > > > looking Klemp.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Is the real and present day
                                          > > > photo depicting the Outer
                                          > > > LEM while the "Official (past)
                                          > > > Photo" depicting the Inner
                                          > > > Master/Mahanta? Is that
                                          > > > Klemp's rationale for this
                                          > > > subliminal trickery?
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Really, I don't think that this
                                          > > > issue has ever been addressed
                                          > > > since ECKists aren't permitted
                                          > > > to ask such questions without
                                          > > > risking reprisals by their RESAs
                                          > > > or via the ESC (Klemp).
                                          > > >
                                          > > > But, in Eckankar, what is reality?
                                          > > > Is it anything one wants to deny
                                          > > > and imagine differently as you
                                          > > > like it?
                                          > > >
                                          > > > This photo switch is simply
                                          > > > another trick that Klemp uses
                                          > > > to cloud the minds and reasoning
                                          > > > abilities of his followers so they
                                          > > > can feel good about their religion
                                          > > > of pretend Masters, Initiations,
                                          > > > and Planes of Consciousness.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > This denial of the obvious is
                                          > > > why ECKists are comfortable
                                          > > > and passive sheep and/or are
                                          > > > chickens in the EK hen house.
                                          > > > However, on the other hand,
                                          > > > ECKists are stressed out as
                                          > > > well.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > ECKists must be Vahanas/
                                          > > > Missionary's and give Service
                                          > > > to Klemp (and Lip Service to
                                          > > > the public) in order to advance
                                          > > > and/or to maintain their status
                                          > > > as official spokespersons.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > The Lip Service is when they
                                          > > > give the "official" presentations
                                          > > > which omit facts with the guise
                                          > > > of being "too much spiritual
                                          > > > food" for the seeker to handle.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Come on, just tell them how
                                          > > > long it will probably take them
                                          > > > to become free of Karma or
                                          > > > reach the 5th initiation! And,
                                          > > > how many more years (and
                                          > > > what's required) it should
                                          > > > take them to reach the 7th
                                          > > > initiation. Then tell them
                                          > > > how long it will be for them
                                          > > > to reach the 8th initiation...
                                          > > > maybe the RESA would know
                                          > > > that answer. LOL!
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Prometheus
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > From Dec, 2009:
                                          > > > Isn't it strange that a "spiritual
                                          > > > master" (a Mahanta) would still
                                          > > > be using an outdated photo.
                                          > > > This shows that Klemp is attached
                                          > > > to KAL's lower plane influences.
                                          > > > This is more proof that HK has
                                          > > > fallen from SUGMAD's Grace (not
                                          > > > that he ever had it). Still, for some
                                          > > > ECKists Klemp's youthful appearance
                                          > > > attachment must be confusing.
                                          > > > Others simply turn a Blind Eye
                                          > > > to it all... they like the public
                                          > > > seeing the younger looking photo.
                                          > > > It's less embarrassing than the
                                          > > > real thing. H.I.s, especially, live
                                          > > > in a state of denial because it's
                                          > > > comfortable and convenient
                                          > > > and EK Membership has become
                                          > > > habitual and ego driven.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > {Note: Annual EK Membership
                                          > > > is actually required in order to
                                          > > > receive and keep initiations. The
                                          > > > reenrolling of one's membership
                                          > > > must become habitual or risk
                                          > > > losing the fake connection with
                                          > > > the Inner via the outer monetary
                                          > > > membership requirement. Thus,
                                          > > > EK membership is ego, as well as,
                                          > > > fear driven.}
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Prometheus
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