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EK Initiations - PT, DG, HK

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  • prometheus_973
    Hello Etznab and All, It s true that Darwin gave out many more initiations than Klemp. After all, Klemp got 6-12 from Darwin! BTW- In Difficulties on page
    Message 1 of 7 , Dec 15, 2009
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      Hello Etznab and All,
      It's true that Darwin gave out many
      more initiations than Klemp. After
      all, Klemp got 6-12 from Darwin!

      BTW- In "Difficulties" on page 255,
      "Paul Translates," is this quote that
      shows that these two Higher Initiates
      were of Paul's inner circle:

      "A short time after they had departed
      one of the Fifth Initiates [Anita Foos]
      felt a sharp call on the inner to go to
      him... The separation was immediate
      and Doctor Louis Bluth, 7th Initiate,
      witnessed Paulji ascending [to heaven]
      in the company of the ECK Masters
      of the Vairagi."

      I wonder why Klemp doesn't want
      this historical and inspirational book
      reprinted? Isn't this a good EK "story,"
      or "testimonial" that gives some validity
      to the EK teachings? What does Klemp
      fear by Not sharing this book with all
      ECKists? HK could make it one of the
      "members only" books if he doesn't
      want the public reading some of PT's
      more controversial comments.

      Getting back to the EK Initiations
      and Klemp... it is strange [or not]
      that EKists have accepted his "slowing
      -down of initiations" strategy for
      all of these years. When was that
      speech made? Wasn't it around
      1985? So, why have EK initiations
      been "slowed-down" for almost
      25 years?

      Why aren't there hundreds of 8ths
      by now? What happened to all of
      those promises about the raising
      of consciousness? It's Bait and Switch,
      and it will continue because Klemp
      is a selfish narcissist! ECKists should
      draw a line in the sand and tell
      Klemp to put-up or shut-up!
      But, that will never happen. ECKists
      don't dare say anything to criticize
      the negative and detrimental policies
      of the All Powerful LEM/Mahanta!
      It would only get them placed on
      their RESA's "Black List" and have
      their files at the ESC "Red Flagged."

      It's like walking on egg shells being
      a good little H.I.. But that carrot
      of initiation is still being dangled
      in front of them. I just don't see
      why the 7ths are still staying...
      it must be EGO due to their "high"
      status. Many like to be admired
      and love being guest speakers at
      Regional Seminars. And, they fear
      that they would have no EK friends
      left if they made the change and
      left Eckankar. Loneliness can be
      unpleasant. However, and what's
      funny, is that it's also a "test" for
      all of their so-called EK friends.
      Most of them FAIL the test of
      demonstrating "unconditional love"
      miserably! One has to wonder why
      they are called Higher Initiates!


      Prometheus


      etznab wrote:

      On the subject of initiations. Were there ever only
      three at one time?

      Also, in 1969, didn't Paul say there were only about
      a half dozen thirds? I'm not sure what that meant.
      Like, Were those the most HI's in 1969?

      I guess it kinda makes sense if Eckankar was not
      founded until 1965 and it takes two years before a
      second initiation.

      In any case, it seems to me that most initiations
      (above the 3rd) first happened during the time of
      Darwin Gross. From October 1971-1981.

      Not saying a lot of initiations didn't happened in the
      time of Harold Klemp, the current leader, just that
      there must have been an awful lot of initiations from
      the time Eckankar became a non-profit religious or-
      ganization in 1970. And after Fall 1971 as Darwin
      became the Master.

      1970 would have been about three years after the
      2nd initiation, for people who got initiated in 1965.
      So, IMO, it looks like most of the first 3rd, 4th and
      5th initiates, etc. got their initiations during the time
      of Darwin Gross.

      Etznab

      Prometheus wrote:
      According to Eckankar, and Klemp,
      H.I.s (5-14) are beyond Karma. Thus,
      poor health (disease) is seen as a "test."

      Why do many H.I.s take Homeopathic
      Remedies when they have the LEM/
      Mahanta's "protection?" Are they 'tying
      up their camels?' Is this why they take
      all of those vitamins and supplements
      too? Is this why they stay away from
      their computers (EMF fears)? What else
      do EK H.I.s have to do to protect their
      health? Flu shots? I doubt it! They have
      too much fear involved with taking the
      vaccine!

      Or, do ECK H.I.s think that the Mahanta
      will protect them from the flu? Yet, HK
      didn't protect those H.I.s who developed
      Cancer! And, these H.I.s were doing/taking
      everything available to them! They HUed,
      did the spiritual exercises, volunteered,
      fasted, did the HIRO thing followed the
      Four Zoas and everything a good little H.I.
      is told/expected to do.

      When does Klemp ever take responsibility
      for anything? Never! There is No Protection
      by the Mahanta (Klemp)! It's all talk and
      more B.S. promises just as it is with all
      religions! Why are there Metal Detectors
      and bag searches at Major EK Seminars?
      There're control tactics and fear going on!
      Yet, Klemp makes sure that there are
      always those "Stories" (testimonials) by
      Eckists who have had a "spiritual experience."
      This is just PR and every religion has it
      in order to placate their current members
      and to strengthen their "hope" and "belief"
      in the PR-Dogma. It's brain-washing!
      A good EK Story would be that everyone
      was "protected" by the Mahanta via the
      Metal Detectors and Bag Searches at the
      Seminar and at the Temple of EK!

      If one needs a religion and something
      to believe in it seems that Klemp's
      Lutheran version of Eckankar (B.S.) is
      typical. True, it's not really the "spiritual
      path" that chelas signed-up for in the
      beginning, (unless one has forgotten
      this or their imaginations have become
      too deluded over time), but pretend can
      be fulfilling and give a false (but feel-good)
      sense of security and worth. Actually,
      it nice to have good self-worth, but being
      an H.I. tends to give many a delusional
      amount of worth and power. They can't
      handle it, and yet to have the higher
      initiation is supposed to mean that they
      have "mastered" the Lower Planes and
      all that goes with a Lower Consciousness.
      However, we all know that this isn't true!
      Once more we have a lie that is glossed
      over and unexplained... except that the
      con "changes" moment to moment! At
      last the Truth!

      Believing in the Mahanta's powers etc.
      is like believing in Santa Claus. Pretend
      can be fun too! And, it always good and
      reassuring to have other like-minded
      people to be in the same boat as you.

      Prometheus

      prometheus wrote:
      Hello All,
      I thought that this would be interesting
      for all to read and to comment on.
      My bracketed [ ] comments and caps
      are added. BTW this is PART 1 of 2:

      The H.I. Letter December 2009

      HK: "Dear Brothers of the Leaf,
      An ECK principle states that good
      health is an aid to spiritual unfoldment."

      ME: [I don't think that this is an "ECK
      principle" per se. But, one does feel
      more positive and happy about life
      when they have good health. However,
      isn't poor health (like cancer) seen
      as a test of faith for the ECKist/religionist?]

      HK: "With that in mind, let us consider
      how to better our health, and thus enjoy
      living in a more satisfying way.

      A couple, ECK Higher Initiates, approached
      me in a food store. The wife mentioned
      a problem with constipation [oh sh_t!],
      a common complaint that goes with
      the graying of hair [like with the Klemps'].

      I told her of a certain liquid magnesium.
      It is ten to twelve times more effective
      than the capsules she was using. And
      later, I heard [her fart and] that it was
      giving her relief.

      Yet constipation told a deeper, more
      fundamental condition, which was
      related to nutrition.

      As the ECK would have it, I met the
      couple two weeks later."

      ME: [They were stalking you, dummy!
      Is Klemp the spokesperson for all New
      Age methods and supplements such as
      Laetrile? He suggested that his oldest
      brother, Duane, go to Mexico for Laetrile
      treatments for cancer. HK couldn't help
      him anymore, then, than he can help chelas
      now! Actually, many of HK's suggestions
      and practices (avoidance of M.D.s and
      of current, valid, and accepted medical
      treatments) does more harm than good.]

      HK: "So I recommended a local radio
      program that addresses health issues.

      The Usual Hosts are a NUTRITIONIST
      and a DIETICIAN, both longtime practitioners
      in their respective fields. And both are
      dedicated to helping people overcome
      ailments of all kinds."

      ME: [Is Klemp naive or stupid to be
      giving recommendations? As LEM/
      Mahanta with ALL KNOWLEDGE
      available to him... why doesn't he
      have his own radio show? Why do
      unpaid Vahanas have to do all the
      work? He's getting paid for doing
      what, all day long? Let's hear a
      live conversation, views, and a
      Q & A segment for non-ECKists!
      Harry's just lazy and is not what
      he claims to be. The proof is in the
      pudding!]

      HK: "More than 90 percent of ALL
      health issues, THEY SAY, are due
      to poor nutrition.

      THEY STRONGLY discourage the
      use of chocolate and coffee, for both
      are linked to jumpy nerves, and even
      to migraine headaches. The problem
      is the Caffeine in them."

      ME: [Yet, Klemp overlooks the fact
      that DARK Chocolate is good for
      heart health, and caffeine doesn't
      affect all people the same. Besides,
      there is always DEcaffeinated coffee!
      Klemp has such a limited focus!]

      HK: "Soft drinks, too, are FROWNED
      upon,both for Caffeine as well as
      Carbohydrates."

      ME: [Well, limit drinking these to one
      or two DIET (sugar free) Caffeine FREE
      soft drinks per day! And, use a straw
      to prevent staining your teeth!]

      HK: "Divide the latter by four to find the
      amount of sugar that the carbohydrates
      convert to, in teaspoonfuls. For example,
      a Drink or Processed Food with twenty-eight
      grams of carbohydrates soon changes
      during digestion, into seven teaspoons
      of sugar, which may produce all kinds
      of problems for young and old alike."

      ME: [Klemp has become quite the expert,
      by proxy, but should this stuff (health info
      available to anyone on the internet) be
      in the H.I. Letter? Most EKies will interpret
      this to mean that Klemp (the LEM/Mahanta)
      is "frowning upon" using soft drinks and
      chocolate. I will have to say that about 30
      years ago, while attending a Darji Potluck,
      one EK Leader suggested that Chocolate
      be banded from future potlucks. It seems
      that Klemp is finally up-to-speed, for him.]

      HK: "A LICENSED Nutritionist must go
      through A More Thorough Training
      Program than does a Dietician."

      ME: [Yet, Klemp stated earlier that
      the radio program he's recommending
      is Co-hosted by a "Dietician!" Thus,
      half of the comments and health advice
      are being given by a less qualified person.
      Klemp likes to have it both ways. Those
      who are no longer mesmerized by him
      can see beyond his double talk!]

      HK: "Should you be looking for a nutritionist,
      be sure that the individual is licensed."

      ME: [Is being "licensed" a guarantee
      that they really know what they are
      talking about? No! Klemp's an idiot!]

      HK: "I understand that in some places,
      nearly anyone can claim to be a nutritionist."

      ME: [And, nearly anyone can "claim to
      be" a LEM/Mahanta!]

      HK: "At a recent meeting of the ECKANKAR
      Board of Trustees, we handled the business
      first. Then they asked if I would speak to
      them."

      ME: [Hmmmm. Maybe they wanted to be
      given some real "spiritual meat" for a "change"]

      HK: "So the ECK lit up for me the topic of
      nutrition, and its vital relationship with good
      health."

      ME: [The Board could have read about it
      in this H.I. Letter article or tuned into the
      radio program, except, Klemp now thinks
      he's an expert (of sorts) and wants to tout
      his newly found knowledge.]

      HK: "A Board Member asked for more
      information and the aforementioned radio
      program.

      I GENERALLY steer clear of recommending
      doctors and the like, because you can usually
      find a qualified practitioner right in the local
      area. BUT this member lived far from a licensed
      nutritionist,

      ME: [Beyond Radio/Computer EMF waves?]

      HK: so I passed along their company's
      Internet address. It is www.weightandwellness.
      com. BUT note, advice that helps others may
      hurt you."

      ME: [Or, handing out advice may hurt Klemp
      more since he broke the Law of NonInterference
      by printing this, unsolicited, health advice!
      However, let's not forget that Klemp is directing
      his H.I.s to risk their health by tuning into the
      Radio EMF Waves and to the EMF that their
      computers generate. They have to be careful
      because it's obvious that they don't have HK's
      (LEM/Mahanta) protection!]

      HK: "THEY are EXPERTS in their fields.
      Helping people find better health is their
      main concern." END of Part 1

      ME: I'd say that their "main concern" is
      making money just as it is with Klemp!
      And, the Dietician nor the Nutritionist
      are Medical Doctors or have a Ph.D in
      a health related field. I'm trying to figure
      out why Klemp is claiming that "THEY
      ARE EXPERTS IN THEIR FIELDS."
      How's that work? Don't "they" just second
      guess other so-called "experts" and
      look at studies of a narrow and bias
      focus with old information that supports
      their philosophy. Hey! That's what Klemp
      does! It's no wonder he relates to them
      as he does!

      Below is the site Klemp was talking
      about. What's interesting is reading
      the bios of these people and looking
      at their pictures! For being "experts
      in their fields" most certainly don't
      look like they've been walking the
      walk! Very unhealthy looking! Hey!
      Klemp doesn't walk the walk either!
      Look at his health!

      http://www.weightandwellness.com/

      Prometheus
    • prometheus_973
      Klemp indirectly suggests that coffee is bad for ECKists health due to the caffeine. However he never mentions the caffeine in tea. Also, on the news today, I
      Message 2 of 7 , Dec 15, 2009
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        Klemp indirectly suggests that coffee
        is bad for ECKists' health due to the
        caffeine. However he never mentions
        the caffeine in tea. Also, on the news
        today, I heard that a study was done
        that showed that Coffee and Tea may
        ward off Diabetes. Plus, one can always
        drink decaf!

        See! Klemp has such a narrow-minded
        and one-dimentional focus and line of
        B.S., that it's pathetic that H.I.s still follow
        him! If he can't write anything better than
        this, for the H.I. Letter, it shows everyone
        that something is wrong. Yet, there's
        nothing that they can do about it. H.I.s
        are stuck with a pathetic example of a
        spiritual leader.

        No, the "INNER" is Not where Klemp
        (as the Mahanta) is to be found either.
        It's illusion that makes him into a spiritual
        giant/God! As Above, So Below... what
        you see (and read from him) is what
        you get and it's Not "changed" since,
        at least, 1990! Klemp hasn't ever said
        anything "profound" nor comparable
        to those whom he likes to quote. He's
        only likable when he's on stage smiling.
        Only Joan sees him daily. This is why he
        hides from social interaction, and would
        never host a Radio Talk Show.

        prometheus


        prometheus wrote:
        According to Eckankar, and Klemp,
        H.I.s (5-14) are beyond Karma. Thus,
        poor health (disease) is seen as a "test."

        Why do many H.I.s take Homeopathic
        Remedies when they have the LEM/
        Mahanta's "protection?" Are they 'tying
        up their camels?' Is this why they take
        all of those vitamins and supplements
        too? Is this why they stay away from
        their computers (EMF fears)? What else
        do EK H.I.s have to do to protect their
        health? Flu shots? I doubt it! They have
        too much fear involved with taking the
        vaccine!

        Or, do ECK H.I.s think that the Mahanta
        will protect them from the flu? Yet, HK
        didn't protect those H.I.s who developed
        Cancer! And, these H.I.s were doing/taking
        everything available to them! They HUed,
        did the spiritual exercises, volunteered,
        fasted, did the HIRO thing followed the
        Four Zoas and everything a good little H.I.
        is told/expected to do.

        When does Klemp ever take responsibility
        for anything? Never! There is No Protection
        by the Mahanta (Klemp)! It's all talk and
        more B.S. promises just as it is with all
        religions! Why are there Metal Detectors
        and bag searches at Major EK Seminars?
        There're control tactics and fear going on!
        Yet, Klemp makes sure that there are
        always those "Stories" (testimonials) by
        Eckists who have had a "spiritual experience."
        This is just PR and every religion has it
        in order to placate their current members
        and to strengthen their "hope" and "belief"
        in the PR-Dogma. It's brain-washing!
        A good EK Story would be that everyone
        was "protected" by the Mahanta via the
        Metal Detectors and Bag Searches at the
        Seminar and at the Temple of EK!

        If one needs a religion and something
        to believe in it seems that Klemp's
        Lutheran version of Eckankar (B.S.) is
        typical. True, it's not really the "spiritual
        path" that chelas signed-up for in the
        beginning, (unless one has forgotten
        this or their imaginations have become
        too deluded over time), but pretend can
        be fulfilling and give a false (but feel-good)
        sense of security and worth. Actually,
        it nice to have good self-worth, but being
        an H.I. tends to give many a delusional
        amount of worth and power. They can't
        handle it, and yet to have the higher
        initiation is supposed to mean that they
        have "mastered" the Lower Planes and
        all that goes with a Lower Consciousness.
        However, we all know that this isn't true!
        Once more we have a lie that is glossed
        over and unexplained... except that the
        con "changes" moment to moment! At
        last the Truth!

        Believing in the Mahanta's powers etc.
        is like believing in Santa Claus. Pretend
        can be fun too! And, it always good and
        reassuring to have other like-minded
        people to be in the same boat as you.

        Prometheus

        prometheus wrote:
        Hello All,
        I thought that this would be interesting
        for all to read and to comment on.
        My bracketed [ ] comments and caps
        are added. BTW this is PART 1 of 2:

        The H.I. Letter December 2009

        HK: "Dear Brothers of the Leaf,
        An ECK principle states that good
        health is an aid to spiritual unfoldment."

        ME: [I don't think that this is an "ECK
        principle" per se. But, one does feel
        more positive and happy about life
        when they have good health. However,
        isn't poor health (like cancer) seen
        as a test of faith for the ECKist/religionist?]

        HK: "With that in mind, let us consider
        how to better our health, and thus enjoy
        living in a more satisfying way.

        A couple, ECK Higher Initiates, approached
        me in a food store. The wife mentioned
        a problem with constipation [oh sh_t!],
        a common complaint that goes with
        the graying of hair [like with the Klemps'].

        I told her of a certain liquid magnesium.
        It is ten to twelve times more effective
        than the capsules she was using. And
        later, I heard [her fart and] that it was
        giving her relief.

        Yet constipation told a deeper, more
        fundamental condition, which was
        related to nutrition.

        As the ECK would have it, I met the
        couple two weeks later."

        ME: [They were stalking you, dummy!
        Is Klemp the spokesperson for all New
        Age methods and supplements such as
        Laetrile? He suggested that his oldest
        brother, Duane, go to Mexico for Laetrile
        treatments for cancer. HK couldn't help
        him anymore, then, than he can help chelas
        now! Actually, many of HK's suggestions
        and practices (avoidance of M.D.s and
        of current, valid, and accepted medical
        treatments) does more harm than good.]

        HK: "So I recommended a local radio
        program that addresses health issues.

        The Usual Hosts are a NUTRITIONIST
        and a DIETICIAN, both longtime practitioners
        in their respective fields. And both are
        dedicated to helping people overcome
        ailments of all kinds."

        ME: [Is Klemp naive or stupid to be
        giving recommendations? As LEM/
        Mahanta with ALL KNOWLEDGE
        available to him... why doesn't he
        have his own radio show? Why do
        unpaid Vahanas have to do all the
        work? He's getting paid for doing
        what, all day long? Let's hear a
        live conversation, views, and a
        Q & A segment for non-ECKists!
        Harry's just lazy and is not what
        he claims to be. The proof is in the
        pudding!]

        HK: "More than 90 percent of ALL
        health issues, THEY SAY, are due
        to poor nutrition.

        THEY STRONGLY discourage the
        use of chocolate and coffee, for both
        are linked to jumpy nerves, and even
        to migraine headaches. The problem
        is the Caffeine in them."

        ME: [Yet, Klemp overlooks the fact
        that DARK Chocolate is good for
        heart health, and caffeine doesn't
        affect all people the same. Besides,
        there is always DEcaffeinated coffee!
        Klemp has such a limited focus!]

        HK: "Soft drinks, too, are FROWNED
        upon,both for Caffeine as well as
        Carbohydrates."

        ME: [Well, limit drinking these to one
        or two DIET (sugar free) Caffeine FREE
        soft drinks per day! And, use a straw
        to prevent staining your teeth!]

        HK: "Divide the latter by four to find the
        amount of sugar that the carbohydrates
        convert to, in teaspoonfuls. For example,
        a Drink or Processed Food with twenty-eight
        grams of carbohydrates soon changes
        during digestion, into seven teaspoons
        of sugar, which may produce all kinds
        of problems for young and old alike."

        ME: [Klemp has become quite the expert,
        by proxy, but should this stuff (health info
        available to anyone on the internet) be
        in the H.I. Letter? Most EKies will interpret
        this to mean that Klemp (the LEM/Mahanta)
        is "frowning upon" using soft drinks and
        chocolate. I will have to say that about 30
        years ago, while attending a Darji Potluck,
        one EK Leader suggested that Chocolate
        be banded from future potlucks. It seems
        that Klemp is finally up-to-speed, for him.]

        HK: "A LICENSED Nutritionist must go
        through A More Thorough Training
        Program than does a Dietician."

        ME: [Yet, Klemp stated earlier that
        the radio program he's recommending
        is Co-hosted by a "Dietician!" Thus,
        half of the comments and health advice
        are being given by a less qualified person.
        Klemp likes to have it both ways. Those
        who are no longer mesmerized by him
        can see beyond his double talk!]

        HK: "Should you be looking for a nutritionist,
        be sure that the individual is licensed."

        ME: [Is being "licensed" a guarantee
        that they really know what they are
        talking about? No! Klemp's an idiot!]

        HK: "I understand that in some places,
        nearly anyone can claim to be a nutritionist."

        ME: [And, nearly anyone can "claim to
        be" a LEM/Mahanta!]

        HK: "At a recent meeting of the ECKANKAR
        Board of Trustees, we handled the business
        first. Then they asked if I would speak to
        them."

        ME: [Hmmmm. Maybe they wanted to be
        given some real "spiritual meat" for a "change"]

        HK: "So the ECK lit up for me the topic of
        nutrition, and its vital relationship with good
        health."

        ME: [The Board could have read about it
        in this H.I. Letter article or tuned into the
        radio program, except, Klemp now thinks
        he's an expert (of sorts) and wants to tout
        his newly found knowledge.]

        HK: "A Board Member asked for more
        information and the aforementioned radio
        program.

        I GENERALLY steer clear of recommending
        doctors and the like, because you can usually
        find a qualified practitioner right in the local
        area. BUT this member lived far from a licensed
        nutritionist,

        ME: [Beyond Radio/Computer EMF waves?]

        HK: so I passed along their company's
        Internet address. It is www.weightandwellness.
        com. BUT note, advice that helps others may
        hurt you."

        ME: [Or, handing out advice may hurt Klemp
        more since he broke the Law of NonInterference
        by printing this, unsolicited, health advice!
        However, let's not forget that Klemp is directing
        his H.I.s to risk their health by tuning into the
        Radio EMF Waves and to the EMF that their
        computers generate. They have to be careful
        because it's obvious that they don't have HK's
        (LEM/Mahanta) protection!]

        HK: "THEY are EXPERTS in their fields.
        Helping people find better health is their
        main concern." END of Part 1

        ME: I'd say that their "main concern" is
        making money just as it is with Klemp!
        And, the Dietician nor the Nutritionist
        are Medical Doctors or have a Ph.D in
        a health related field. I'm trying to figure
        out why Klemp is claiming that "THEY
        ARE EXPERTS IN THEIR FIELDS."
        How's that work? Don't "they" just second
        guess other so-called "experts" and
        look at studies of a narrow and bias
        focus with old information that supports
        their philosophy. Hey! That's what Klemp
        does! It's no wonder he relates to them
        as he does!

        Below is the site Klemp was talking
        about. What's interesting is reading
        the bios of these people and looking
        at their pictures! For being "experts
        in their fields" most certainly don't
        look like they've been walking the
        walk! Very unhealthy looking! Hey!
        Klemp doesn't walk the walk either!
        Look at his health!


        http://www.weightandwellness.com/

        Prometheus
      • prometheus_973
        Hello All, At EK Seminars there are Workshops for those chelas who want to be on the FAST TRACK, for initiations, and those who want to be on the SPIRITUAL
        Message 3 of 7 , Dec 16, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          Hello All,
          At EK Seminars there are Workshops
          for those chelas who want to be
          on the "FAST TRACK," for initiations,
          and those who want to be on the
          "SPIRITUAL TRACK." It's all a ruse
          of course! There is No "Fast" track,
          thus, there is no "Spiritual" track!

          There are those chelas and H.I.s
          who have given up playing the
          God-Realization/Initiation game.
          For them: 'The Journey IS the Destination!'

          Other ECKists are grabbing at
          straws (promises) and those carrots
          of initiation. For them the Goal/
          Destination is upon the future
          and that of "God-Realization"
          (in this lifetime). Yet, this future
          desire and the desire for more
          Initiations negates these! One
          cannot have Lower Plane attachments
          and achieve Higher Plane rewards.

          However, this is the Catch-22
          magic that Klemp uses on his
          followers from ever achieving
          these goals. Therefore, Klemp's
          H.I.s can never complain or express
          their frustrations with his Long-
          Term Initiation Slow-Down.
          H.I.s are supposed to have
          patience... it's another "test."

          However, when one looks at the
          numbers and the handful of 8th
          Initiates one can see that the problem
          isn't with the 7ths! The problem
          is with Klemp! He doesn't want to
          share! He's selfish, narrow and closed-
          minded, petty, and is an ego driven
          narcissist. The pity is that most 7ths
          cope by visualizing themselves as
          8ths on the Inner. Unfortunately
          this delusional compensation is
          ego driven. This is how the ego
          uses the imagination to protect,
          and delude, a person from
          an unacceptable truth when it
          feels trapped. In this case 7ths
          are trapped by their religion and
          the world they have constructed
          and accepted.

          However, the Good News is that Soul
          doesn't need a religion or hierarchies
          and RESAs or Mahantas and Masters.

          Soul (we) can just look to Self
          (ourSelves) and to Spirit and keep
          it simple and uncomplicated. Answers
          and contentment will come. Sure,
          we are social animals and need
          contact and relationships with others,
          but sometimes you have to let some
          go their own way and make their own
          choices. People do tend to hold onto
          grudges for things that are ever so
          slight let alone rejecting their religion
          which you shared with them. This
          is their test proving they were never
          what they preached... like Klemp.

          When in harmony; New friends
          and experiences will appear just
          over the next hill or in a special
          way sent by Spirit.

          "Change" is not just something
          that Klemp invented. However,
          unbeknownst to Klemp, this idea
          of "change" could be the "true"
          Golden-Tongued Wisdom for H.I.s.
          It means that ECKists need to take
          drastic action and and make a
          responsible, detached, decision
          in their lives and leave Eckankar
          behind. New beginnings refresh
          one's perspective.

          Co-dependency (reliance upon
          Klemp/the Mahanta) is Not Healthy!
          Eckankar's not working, on many
          levels, for hundreds of EK members,
          especially, 7th Initiates!

          Klemp's outer promises have been
          broken and the "inner" ones are
          imaginary.

          Prometheus



          prometheus wrote:
          >
          > Hello Etznab and All,
          > It's true that Darwin gave out many
          > more initiations than Klemp. After
          > all, Klemp got 6-12 from Darwin!
          >
          > BTW- In "Difficulties" on page 255,
          > "Paul Translates," is this quote that
          > shows that these two Higher Initiates
          > were of Paul's inner circle:
          >
          > "A short time after they had departed
          > one of the Fifth Initiates [Anita Foos]
          > felt a sharp call on the inner to go to
          > him... The separation was immediate
          > and Doctor Louis Bluth, 7th Initiate,
          > witnessed Paulji ascending [to heaven]
          > in the company of the ECK Masters
          > of the Vairagi."
          >
          > I wonder why Klemp doesn't want
          > this historical and inspirational book
          > reprinted? Isn't this a good EK "story,"
          > or "testimonial" that gives some validity
          > to the EK teachings? What does Klemp
          > fear by Not sharing this book with all
          > ECKists? HK could make it one of the
          > "members only" books if he doesn't
          > want the public reading some of PT's
          > more controversial comments.
          >
          > Getting back to the EK Initiations
          > and Klemp... it is strange [or not]
          > that EKists have accepted his "slowing
          > -down of initiations" strategy for
          > all of these years. When was that
          > speech made? Wasn't it around
          > 1985? So, why have EK initiations
          > been "slowed-down" for almost
          > 25 years?
          >
          > Why aren't there hundreds of 8ths
          > by now? What happened to all of
          > those promises about the raising
          > of consciousness? It's Bait and Switch,
          > and it will continue because Klemp
          > is a selfish narcissist! ECKists should
          > draw a line in the sand and tell
          > Klemp to put-up or shut-up!
          > But, that will never happen. ECKists
          > don't dare say anything to criticize
          > the negative and detrimental policies
          > of the All Powerful LEM/Mahanta!
          > It would only get them placed on
          > their RESA's "Black List" and have
          > their files at the ESC "Red Flagged."
          >
          > It's like walking on egg shells being
          > a good little H.I.. But that carrot
          > of initiation is still being dangled
          > in front of them. I just don't see
          > why the 7ths are still staying...
          > it must be EGO due to their "high"
          > status. Many like to be admired
          > and love being guest speakers at
          > Regional Seminars. And, they fear
          > that they would have no EK friends
          > left if they made the change and
          > left Eckankar. Loneliness can be
          > unpleasant. However, and what's
          > funny, is that it's also a "test" for
          > all of their so-called EK friends.
          > Most of them FAIL the test of
          > demonstrating "unconditional love"
          > miserably! One has to wonder why
          > they are called Higher Initiates!
          >
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
          >
          > etznab wrote:
          >
          > On the subject of initiations. Were there ever only
          > three at one time?
          >
          > Also, in 1969, didn't Paul say there were only about
          > a half dozen thirds? I'm not sure what that meant.
          > Like, Were those the most HI's in 1969?
          >
          > I guess it kinda makes sense if Eckankar was not
          > founded until 1965 and it takes two years before a
          > second initiation.
          >
          > In any case, it seems to me that most initiations
          > (above the 3rd) first happened during the time of
          > Darwin Gross. From October 1971-1981.
          >
          > Not saying a lot of initiations didn't happened in the
          > time of Harold Klemp, the current leader, just that
          > there must have been an awful lot of initiations from
          > the time Eckankar became a non-profit religious or-
          > ganization in 1970. And after Fall 1971 as Darwin
          > became the Master.
          >
          > 1970 would have been about three years after the
          > 2nd initiation, for people who got initiated in 1965.
          > So, IMO, it looks like most of the first 3rd, 4th and
          > 5th initiates, etc. got their initiations during the time
          > of Darwin Gross.
          >
          > Etznab
          >
          > Prometheus wrote:
          > According to Eckankar, and Klemp,
          > H.I.s (5-14) are beyond Karma. Thus,
          > poor health (disease) is seen as a "test."
          >
          > Why do many H.I.s take Homeopathic
          > Remedies when they have the LEM/
          > Mahanta's "protection?" Are they 'tying
          > up their camels?' Is this why they take
          > all of those vitamins and supplements
          > too? Is this why they stay away from
          > their computers (EMF fears)? What else
          > do EK H.I.s have to do to protect their
          > health? Flu shots? I doubt it! They have
          > too much fear involved with taking the
          > vaccine!
          >
          > Or, do ECK H.I.s think that the Mahanta
          > will protect them from the flu? Yet, HK
          > didn't protect those H.I.s who developed
          > Cancer! And, these H.I.s were doing/taking
          > everything available to them! They HUed,
          > did the spiritual exercises, volunteered,
          > fasted, did the HIRO thing followed the
          > Four Zoas and everything a good little H.I.
          > is told/expected to do.
          >
          > When does Klemp ever take responsibility
          > for anything? Never! There is No Protection
          > by the Mahanta (Klemp)! It's all talk and
          > more B.S. promises just as it is with all
          > religions! Why are there Metal Detectors
          > and bag searches at Major EK Seminars?
          > There're control tactics and fear going on!
          > Yet, Klemp makes sure that there are
          > always those "Stories" (testimonials) by
          > Eckists who have had a "spiritual experience."
          > This is just PR and every religion has it
          > in order to placate their current members
          > and to strengthen their "hope" and "belief"
          > in the PR-Dogma. It's brain-washing!
          > A good EK Story would be that everyone
          > was "protected" by the Mahanta via the
          > Metal Detectors and Bag Searches at the
          > Seminar and at the Temple of EK!
          >
          > If one needs a religion and something
          > to believe in it seems that Klemp's
          > Lutheran version of Eckankar (B.S.) is
          > typical. True, it's not really the "spiritual
          > path" that chelas signed-up for in the
          > beginning, (unless one has forgotten
          > this or their imaginations have become
          > too deluded over time), but pretend can
          > be fulfilling and give a false (but feel-good)
          > sense of security and worth. Actually,
          > it nice to have good self-worth, but being
          > an H.I. tends to give many a delusional
          > amount of worth and power. They can't
          > handle it, and yet to have the higher
          > initiation is supposed to mean that they
          > have "mastered" the Lower Planes and
          > all that goes with a Lower Consciousness.
          > However, we all know that this isn't true!
          > Once more we have a lie that is glossed
          > over and unexplained... except that the
          > con "changes" moment to moment! At
          > last the Truth!
          >
          > Believing in the Mahanta's powers etc.
          > is like believing in Santa Claus. Pretend
          > can be fun too! And, it always good and
          > reassuring to have other like-minded
          > people to be in the same boat as you.
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
          > prometheus wrote:
          > Hello All,
          > I thought that this would be interesting
          > for all to read and to comment on.
          > My bracketed [ ] comments and caps
          > are added. BTW this is PART 1 of 2:
          >
          > The H.I. Letter December 2009
          >
          > HK: "Dear Brothers of the Leaf,
          > An ECK principle states that good
          > health is an aid to spiritual unfoldment."
          >
          > ME: [I don't think that this is an "ECK
          > principle" per se. But, one does feel
          > more positive and happy about life
          > when they have good health. However,
          > isn't poor health (like cancer) seen
          > as a test of faith for the ECKist/religionist?]
          >
          > HK: "With that in mind, let us consider
          > how to better our health, and thus enjoy
          > living in a more satisfying way.
          >
          > A couple, ECK Higher Initiates, approached
          > me in a food store. The wife mentioned
          > a problem with constipation [oh sh_t!],
          > a common complaint that goes with
          > the graying of hair [like with the Klemps'].
          >
          > I told her of a certain liquid magnesium.
          > It is ten to twelve times more effective
          > than the capsules she was using. And
          > later, I heard [her fart and] that it was
          > giving her relief.
          >
          > Yet constipation told a deeper, more
          > fundamental condition, which was
          > related to nutrition.
          >
          > As the ECK would have it, I met the
          > couple two weeks later."
          >
          > ME: [They were stalking you, dummy!
          > Is Klemp the spokesperson for all New
          > Age methods and supplements such as
          > Laetrile? He suggested that his oldest
          > brother, Duane, go to Mexico for Laetrile
          > treatments for cancer. HK couldn't help
          > him anymore, then, than he can help chelas
          > now! Actually, many of HK's suggestions
          > and practices (avoidance of M.D.s and
          > of current, valid, and accepted medical
          > treatments) does more harm than good.]
          >
          > HK: "So I recommended a local radio
          > program that addresses health issues.
          >
          > The Usual Hosts are a NUTRITIONIST
          > and a DIETICIAN, both longtime practitioners
          > in their respective fields. And both are
          > dedicated to helping people overcome
          > ailments of all kinds."
          >
          > ME: [Is Klemp naive or stupid to be
          > giving recommendations? As LEM/
          > Mahanta with ALL KNOWLEDGE
          > available to him... why doesn't he
          > have his own radio show? Why do
          > unpaid Vahanas have to do all the
          > work? He's getting paid for doing
          > what, all day long? Let's hear a
          > live conversation, views, and a
          > Q & A segment for non-ECKists!
          > Harry's just lazy and is not what
          > he claims to be. The proof is in the
          > pudding!]
          >
          > HK: "More than 90 percent of ALL
          > health issues, THEY SAY, are due
          > to poor nutrition.
          >
          > THEY STRONGLY discourage the
          > use of chocolate and coffee, for both
          > are linked to jumpy nerves, and even
          > to migraine headaches. The problem
          > is the Caffeine in them."
          >
          > ME: [Yet, Klemp overlooks the fact
          > that DARK Chocolate is good for
          > heart health, and caffeine doesn't
          > affect all people the same. Besides,
          > there is always DEcaffeinated coffee!
          > Klemp has such a limited focus!]
          >
          > HK: "Soft drinks, too, are FROWNED
          > upon,both for Caffeine as well as
          > Carbohydrates."
          >
          > ME: [Well, limit drinking these to one
          > or two DIET (sugar free) Caffeine FREE
          > soft drinks per day! And, use a straw
          > to prevent staining your teeth!]
          >
          > HK: "Divide the latter by four to find the
          > amount of sugar that the carbohydrates
          > convert to, in teaspoonfuls. For example,
          > a Drink or Processed Food with twenty-eight
          > grams of carbohydrates soon changes
          > during digestion, into seven teaspoons
          > of sugar, which may produce all kinds
          > of problems for young and old alike."
          >
          > ME: [Klemp has become quite the expert,
          > by proxy, but should this stuff (health info
          > available to anyone on the internet) be
          > in the H.I. Letter? Most EKies will interpret
          > this to mean that Klemp (the LEM/Mahanta)
          > is "frowning upon" using soft drinks and
          > chocolate. I will have to say that about 30
          > years ago, while attending a Darji Potluck,
          > one EK Leader suggested that Chocolate
          > be banded from future potlucks. It seems
          > that Klemp is finally up-to-speed, for him.]
          >
          > HK: "A LICENSED Nutritionist must go
          > through A More Thorough Training
          > Program than does a Dietician."
          >
          > ME: [Yet, Klemp stated earlier that
          > the radio program he's recommending
          > is Co-hosted by a "Dietician!" Thus,
          > half of the comments and health advice
          > are being given by a less qualified person.
          > Klemp likes to have it both ways. Those
          > who are no longer mesmerized by him
          > can see beyond his double talk!]
          >
          > HK: "Should you be looking for a nutritionist,
          > be sure that the individual is licensed."
          >
          > ME: [Is being "licensed" a guarantee
          > that they really know what they are
          > talking about? No! Klemp's an idiot!]
          >
          > HK: "I understand that in some places,
          > nearly anyone can claim to be a nutritionist."
          >
          > ME: [And, nearly anyone can "claim to
          > be" a LEM/Mahanta!]
          >
          > HK: "At a recent meeting of the ECKANKAR
          > Board of Trustees, we handled the business
          > first. Then they asked if I would speak to
          > them."
          >
          > ME: [Hmmmm. Maybe they wanted to be
          > given some real "spiritual meat" for a "change"]
          >
          > HK: "So the ECK lit up for me the topic of
          > nutrition, and its vital relationship with good
          > health."
          >
          > ME: [The Board could have read about it
          > in this H.I. Letter article or tuned into the
          > radio program, except, Klemp now thinks
          > he's an expert (of sorts) and wants to tout
          > his newly found knowledge.]
          >
          > HK: "A Board Member asked for more
          > information and the aforementioned radio
          > program.
          >
          > I GENERALLY steer clear of recommending
          > doctors and the like, because you can usually
          > find a qualified practitioner right in the local
          > area. BUT this member lived far from a licensed
          > nutritionist,
          >
          > ME: [Beyond Radio/Computer EMF waves?]
          >
          > HK: so I passed along their company's
          > Internet address. It is www.weightandwellness.
          > com. BUT note, advice that helps others may
          > hurt you."
          >
          > ME: [Or, handing out advice may hurt Klemp
          > more since he broke the Law of NonInterference
          > by printing this, unsolicited, health advice!
          > However, let's not forget that Klemp is directing
          > his H.I.s to risk their health by tuning into the
          > Radio EMF Waves and to the EMF that their
          > computers generate. They have to be careful
          > because it's obvious that they don't have HK's
          > (LEM/Mahanta) protection!]
          >
          > HK: "THEY are EXPERTS in their fields.
          > Helping people find better health is their
          > main concern." END of Part 1
          >
          > ME: I'd say that their "main concern" is
          > making money just as it is with Klemp!
          > And, the Dietician nor the Nutritionist
          > are Medical Doctors or have a Ph.D in
          > a health related field. I'm trying to figure
          > out why Klemp is claiming that "THEY
          > ARE EXPERTS IN THEIR FIELDS."
          > How's that work? Don't "they" just second
          > guess other so-called "experts" and
          > look at studies of a narrow and bias
          > focus with old information that supports
          > their philosophy. Hey! That's what Klemp
          > does! It's no wonder he relates to them
          > as he does!
          >
          > Below is the site Klemp was talking
          > about. What's interesting is reading
          > the bios of these people and looking
          > at their pictures! For being "experts
          > in their fields" most certainly don't
          > look like they've been walking the
          > walk! Very unhealthy looking! Hey!
          > Klemp doesn't walk the walk either!
          > Look at his health!
          >
          > http://www.weightandwellness.com/
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
        • prometheus_973
          Hello All, I thought that this would be interesting for all to read and to comment on. My bracketed [ ] comments and caps are added. BTW this is PART 1 of 2:
          Message 4 of 7 , Jan 6, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            Hello All,
            I thought that this would be interesting
            for all to read and to comment on.
            My bracketed [ ] comments and caps
            are added. BTW this is PART 1 of 2:

            The H.I. Letter December 2009

            HK: "Dear Brothers of the Leaf,
            An ECK principle states that good
            health is an aid to spiritual unfoldment."

            ME: [I don't think that this is an "ECK
            principle" per se. But, one does feel
            more positive and happy about life
            when they have good health. However,
            isn't poor health (like cancer) seen
            as a test of faith for the ECKist/religionist?]

            HK: "With that in mind, let us consider
            how to better our health, and thus enjoy
            living in a more satisfying way.

            A couple, ECK Higher Initiates, approached
            me in a food store. The wife mentioned
            a problem with constipation [oh sh_t!],
            a common complaint that goes with
            the graying of hair [like with the Klemps'].

            I told her of a certain liquid magnesium.
            It is ten to twelve times more effective
            than the capsules she was using. And
            later, I heard [her fart and] that it was
            giving her relief.

            Yet constipation told a deeper, more
            fundamental condition, which was
            related to nutrition.

            As the ECK would have it, I met the
            couple two weeks later."

            ME: [They were stalking you, dummy!
            Is Klemp the spokesperson for all New
            Age methods and supplements such as
            Laetrile? He suggested that his oldest
            brother, Duane, go to Mexico for Laetrile
            treatments for cancer. HK couldn't help
            him anymore, then, than he can help chelas
            now! Actually, many of HK's suggestions
            and practices (avoidance of M.D.s and
            of current, valid, and accepted medical
            treatments) does more harm than good.]

            HK: "So I recommended a local radio
            program that addresses health issues.

            The Usual Hosts are a NUTRITIONIST
            and a DIETICIAN, both longtime practitioners
            in their respective fields. And both are
            dedicated to helping people overcome
            ailments of all kinds."

            ME: [Is Klemp naive or stupid to be
            giving recommendations? As LEM/
            Mahanta with ALL KNOWLEDGE
            available to him... why doesn't he
            have his own radio show? Why do
            unpaid Vahanas have to do all the
            work? He's getting paid for doing
            what, all day long? Let's hear a
            live conversation, views, and a
            Q & A segment for non-ECKists!
            Harry's just lazy and is not what
            he claims to be. The proof is in the
            pudding!]

            HK: "More than 90 percent of ALL
            health issues, THEY SAY, are due
            to poor nutrition.

            THEY STRONGLY discourage the
            use of chocolate and coffee, for both
            are linked to jumpy nerves, and even
            to migraine headaches. The problem
            is the Caffeine in them."

            ME: [Yet, Klemp overlooks the fact
            that DARK Chocolate is good for
            heart health, and caffeine doesn't
            affect all people the same. Besides,
            there is always DEcaffeinated coffee!
            Klemp has such a limited focus!]

            HK: "Soft drinks, too, are FROWNED
            upon,both for Caffeine as well as
            Carbohydrates."

            ME: [Well, limit drinking these to one
            or two DIET (sugar free) Caffeine FREE
            soft drinks per day! And, use a straw
            to prevent staining your teeth!]

            HK: "Divide the latter by four to find the
            amount of sugar that the carbohydrates
            convert to, in teaspoonfuls. For example,
            a Drink or Processed Food with twenty-eight
            grams of carbohydrates soon changes
            during digestion, into seven teaspoons
            of sugar, which may produce all kinds
            of problems for young and old alike."

            ME: [Klemp has become quite the expert,
            by proxy, but should this stuff (health info
            available to anyone on the internet) be
            in the H.I. Letter? Most EKies will interpret
            this to mean that Klemp (the LEM/Mahanta)
            is "frowning upon" using soft drinks and
            chocolate. I will have to say that about 30
            years ago, while attending a Darji Potluck,
            one EK Leader suggested that Chocolate
            be banded from future potlucks. It seems
            that Klemp is finally up-to-speed, for him.]

            HK: "A LICENSED Nutritionist must go
            through A More Thorough Training
            Program than does a Dietician."

            ME: [Yet, Klemp stated earlier that
            the radio program he's recommending
            is Co-hosted by a "Dietician!" Thus,
            half of the comments and health advice
            are being given by a less qualified person.
            Klemp likes to have it both ways. Those
            who are no longer mesmerized by him
            can see beyond his double talk!]

            HK: "Should you be looking for a nutritionist,
            be sure that the individual is licensed."

            ME: [Is being "licensed" a guarantee
            that they really know what they are
            talking about? No! Klemp's an idiot!]

            HK: "I understand that in some places,
            nearly anyone can claim to be a nutritionist."

            ME: [And, nearly anyone can "claim to
            be" a LEM/Mahanta!]

            HK: "At a recent meeting of the ECKANKAR
            Board of Trustees, we handled the business
            first. Then they asked if I would speak to
            them."

            ME: [Hmmmm. Maybe they wanted to be
            given some real "spiritual meat" for a "change"]

            HK: "So the ECK lit up for me the topic of
            nutrition, and its vital relationship with good
            health."

            ME: [The Board could have read about it
            in this H.I. Letter article or tuned into the
            radio program, except, Klemp now thinks
            he's an expert (of sorts) and wants to tout
            his newly found knowledge.]

            HK: "A Board Member asked for more
            information and the aforementioned radio
            program.

            I GENERALLY steer clear of recommending
            doctors and the like, because you can usually
            find a qualified practitioner right in the local
            area. BUT this member lived far from a licensed
            nutritionist,

            ME: [Beyond Radio/Computer EMF waves?]

            HK: so I passed along their company's
            Internet address. It is www.weightandwellness.
            com. BUT note, advice that helps others may
            hurt you."

            ME: [Or, handing out advice may hurt Klemp
            more since he broke the Law of NonInterference
            by printing this, unsolicited, health advice!
            However, let's not forget that Klemp is directing
            his H.I.s to risk their health by tuning into the
            Radio EMF Waves and to the EMF that their
            computers generate. They have to be careful
            because it's obvious that they don't have HK's
            (LEM/Mahanta) protection!]

            HK: "THEY are EXPERTS in their fields.
            Helping people find better health is their
            main concern." END of Part 1

            ME: I'd say that their "main concern" is
            making money just as it is with Klemp!
            And, the Dietician nor the Nutritionist
            are Medical Doctors or have a Ph.D in
            a health related field. I'm trying to figure
            out why Klemp is claiming that "THEY
            ARE EXPERTS IN THEIR FIELDS."
            How's that work? Don't "they" just second
            guess other so-called "experts" and
            look at studies of a narrow and bias
            focus with old information that supports
            their philosophy. Hey! That's what Klemp
            does! It's no wonder he relates to them
            as he does!

            Below is the site Klemp was talking
            about. What's interesting is reading
            the bios of these people and looking
            at their pictures! For being "experts
            in their fields" most certainly don't
            look like they've been walking the
            walk! Very unhealthy looking! Hey!
            Klemp doesn't walk the walk either!
            Look at his health!


            http://www.weightandwellness.com/

            Prometheus
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