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Re: PT's "Difficulties Of Becoming The LEM"

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  • prometheus_973
    Hello Etznab and All, This is quite a long post, but it has interesting time- line info that proves both Twitchell and Klemp are liars! Here re the Timelines
    Message 1 of 5 , Nov 7, 2009
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      Hello Etznab and All,
      This is quite a long post,
      but it has interesting time-
      line info that proves both
      Twitchell and Klemp are liars!

      Here're the Timelines from
      HK's "Behind the Scenes with
      Paul Twitchell" (on Eckankar.org)
      and from PT's audio interview
      "Difficulties Of Becoming the LEM"

      First, Klemp gives Twitchell's
      birthdate as 10/22/1908.

      *At age 16 (1924) PT claims to
      have traveled to Paris, France
      (where Montmartre is located)
      to visit his stepsister Kay-Dee
      (Katie) and then traveled to India
      to meet Sudar Singh.

      "We were just a few block away from
      Montmartre, where all the famous
      artists were living... Edgar Degas was
      the last that I knew of, Katie was very
      close to him because she was studying
      under one of his students." [Was Degas
      even living in this year? What a liar!]

      "WE met with Sudar Singh who was the
      leading advocate of Soul Travel. From
      Paris we decided that we would go back
      to his little ashram, which was five miles
      above ALLAHABAD, on what they call Old
      Canteen Road..." [So, from Paris, France
      (Kentucky) they went to Allahabad, India!]

      "After I had left India, came home, I was
      then about sixteen. I had a year or so to
      do some work in order to finish my degree."
      [DOBTLEM, page 48]

      *Klemp claims, on Eckankar.org,
      that Twitchell at age 27 (1935) was
      'exaggerating' and 'twisting facts'
      to get into Who's Who in Kentucky
      and that PT had never traveled far
      from home. Thus, no trip to India,
      after Paris, to meet Sudar in 1924!

      BTW- Marman claims that Twit was
      actually visiting his stepsister in Paris,
      Kentucky versus Paris, France. However,
      it's obvious that Twitchell was referring
      to being in France versus Kentucky
      because he mentioned "Montmartre."
      Thus, it's clear that PT lied about traveling
      to India, after Paris, at age 16 (1924).

      *Twitchell states that he met
      Rebazar in 1947 on his "first"
      visit to India and that Kirpal
      Singh was dead, and that he
      received the 7th Initiation. by
      Rebazar." [DOBTLEM, pg. 70]

      *Klemp mentions that Twit met
      with Rebazar in 1951 on his
      "second" trip to India.

      *This "second" trip is when
      Twitchell claims to have
      "finished" his Initiations under
      Rebazar, thus, PT is basically
      saying he got the 12th from
      RT in 1951!

      *From 1950-1955 Twitchell
      was a chela of Swami Premananda.

      *From 1955-1965 Twitchell
      was initiated by Kirpal Singh
      (aka "Sudar" Singh) who was
      the spiritual leader and living
      Master of Ruhani Satsang. Kirpal
      died in 1974 (three years after

      *During this time frame PT
      was also associated with
      L. Ron and Scientology.

      *PT, also, had Gail initiated
      by Kirpal on his second visit
      to the U.S. around 1961 or
      1963 (I forget).

      *Kirpal returned Twitchell's
      "The Tiger's Fang" manuscript
      circa June, 1966 after a "falling
      out" centering around PT's
      'exaggerations' and the 'twisting
      of facts' involving Paul's
      travels/experiences to the
      inner planes. PT was trying
      to exalt himself to great
      heights in order to have Kirpal
      give him the authority to give
      initiations in the U.S. This
      "authority" would have given
      PT the validity he was seeking
      in order to break away from
      Kirpal and start his own sect
      of Ruhani Satsang.


      etznab wrote:

      Do you have a page number where
      it mentions Sudar Singh had passed
      away by 1947?

      [P]- page 70


      Prometheus wrote:
      Here's some detailed info on
      Rebazar and PT's initiations,
      but first a look at how/where/
      when Paul studied and learned
      how to control the "group mind."

      "My life of Several Years in
      Washington D.C., was uneventful
      in the fact that I didn't do any-
      thing great. I didn't do anything

      [Paul was just a "normal" liar
      during his transitional period.]

      "I could come and go in the
      embassies fairly well as much
      as I wanted to and got to know
      people of this nature and to be
      able to study them, and find out
      that they were people who only
      had actually, a tremendous amount
      of knowledge about How Group
      Minds Work, How National Minds
      Work in a Country, and have a
      tremendous knowledge about
      relations, Human Relations."
      [pg. 68]

      See, how Paul is studying the
      "group mind" to find ways to
      control the masses. Sounds
      like what a Black Magician
      would do!

      Next is PT's Sudar and Rebazar
      story. Notice how it seems that
      Paul's making it all up as he
      goes along. He tends to backtrack
      some, exaggerates, or gets
      details and facts wrong. Lying
      takes much more effort than
      recounting the truth. Remember,
      too, this book was transcribed
      from audio interviews done
      circa June-July, 1971).

      "Well, anyway, in about 1947,
      it was right shortly after the
      Indians nation, India, received
      their freedom from England
      and then became a nation...
      I went over to Darjeeling...
      right on the Sikkim border...
      I went up there at the time
      after being over in Allahabad,
      and there wasn't much left
      there after SUDAR SINGH HAD

      But then I went there and I'd
      been told that I would find the
      ECK Master Rebazar Tarzs, I've
      got something about that in
      one of my books, I think it's
      Introduction to ECK in which
      I have it. I told about meeting
      him up in that part of the world.

      SOME TIME WITH HIM [Rebazar],
      WORKS OF ECK. And then I
      was told to come back because
      then I would start into the true
      works of ECKANKAR.

      I had already BEEN INITIATED


      Then he [Rebazar?] moved
      across over into Kashmir,
      up in the Hindu Kush Mountains,
      and later, BUT NOT ON THIS
      INITIATIONS." [pgs. 70-71]

      Thus, Twitchell is claiming, in
      this 1971 Interview, that AFTER
      he was discharged from the Navy,
      in 1947, that he "physically"
      traveled to India and stayed with
      Rebazar for "SIX to SEVEN MONTHS"
      and was given the SEVENTH
      INITIATION by him. Klemp claims
      on Eckankar.org that PT "physically"
      returned to INDIA, a second time,
      to meet Rebazar in 1951.


      However, the timeline shows
      that Twitchell was a member
      of Swami Premananda's church
      from 1950-1955, and was a
      member of Kirpal Singh's Ruhani
      Satsang (and/or was associated
      with him) from 1955-1965.

      Of course, Paul was, also, a
      member of Scientology after
      he, supposedly, received the
      7th Initiation from Rebazar
      in 1947.

      Even Klemp admits that there
      was still a connection with Kirpal
      Singh involving PT's The Tiger's
      Fang manuscript and a falling
      out with Kirpal.


      Also, isn't it strange that Klemp
      mentions Kirpal's name about
      15 times and 970th LEM Sudar's
      name about 4 times in this info
      "Behind the Scenes with Paul

      However, How could Paul have
      gotten the 7th Initiation from
      Rebazar, in India, in 1947 and
      then become an initiate of Kirpal
      Singh during the timeline of
      having written "The Tiger's Fang?"
      Kirpal returned the manuscript
      to Paul circa 1966.

      Plus, Kirpal initiated Paul in
      1955 on his first visit to the
      U.S. and Gail was initiated
      by Kirpal on his next visit
      to the U.S.! Why would Paul
      want an initiation by Kirpal,
      in 1955, if PT was a 7th
      Initiate in Eckankar in 1947
      and a 12th (finished) in 1951?

      Thus, we have another reason
      as to why Klemp and Company
      doesn't want this "historic"
      document reprinted!

      Also, why did Paul need to
      "PHYSICALLY RETURN" to India
      and climb the Hindu Kush Mountains
      to revisit Rebazar, after receiving
      the SEVENTH INITIATION (in 1947),
      in order to "finish" his initiations
      with Rebazar.

      Twit states, on page 71, about
      an experience with Rebazar (in
      1947) while sitting under a shade

      "... when I was staying at the
      Ashram in ALLAHABAD which
      belonged to Sudar Singh...
      I'll say something here about
      Rebazar Tarzs... I THOUGHT
      that he had MANIFESTED himself
      because I just looked up and
      and there he was walking towards
      me... I FELT that he'd MANIFESTED
      himself because I had averted
      my eyes from the path which
      was directly in front of me, for
      just a matter of moments as
      anyone would do if they look

      Now, Why would Twit need to
      travel to India in his physical
      body a "second time" if Rebazar
      could "manifest" himself anywhere?

      Wasn't "Dialogues with the Master"
      dictated to Twit at night, in his
      bedroom, in the U.S., via Rebazar
      physically "manifesting" himself!

      See! It's all a bunch of lies and
      Klemp is part of it and the cover-up!

      But, then again, Klemp doesn't
      want to ruin the good thing he's
      got going on, and he certainly
      doesn't want to give up the power
      trip he's on. It's cool to have
      thousands of people bow down
      before you, to get giddy and nervous
      in your presence and thinking
      Harry's "Higher" than the "God"
      of all of the other religions on

      Can Eckists see the irony of,
      "My God is Bigger Than Yours!"

      prometheus wrote:

      Hello Sharon and All,
      Yes, Paul does truly reveal himself
      in this book. His negative attitude
      and subversiveness, while in the
      Navy during WWII, was a real eye-
      opener! I can see why Klemp and
      Company don't want this book
      reprinted... WOW!

      After all, in June, 1971 when
      Twitch was recounting these
      earlier experiences (that were
      later placed into this book) Paul
      was the "Full" Mahanta, and
      didn't have any problem with
      nor find any fault with his
      past behaviours. He had no
      regrets about it! To Twitchell
      the Navy was a joke and he
      was going to have some sport
      with them (manipulate them)
      and take it easy while they miss-
      placed his paperwork due, in
      part, to his passive/aggressive
      attitude toward "superior officers."

      PT: "... on setting my mind on
      something, it was going to work
      exactly my way. If I got into the
      service, I wasn't going to be
      bothered with this sort of thing,
      of going out there on the front
      line and fighting. I was going to
      find myself a nice, comfortable
      berth someplace and be kept

      "I found out so many times in
      dealing with thousands of people,
      that they never knew this. And
      this is one of the Acts of Power
      that all the Dictators and everybody
      else had found, BUT I was using
      it in My way and Not using it as
      a control over a great number of
      people, EXCEPT to keep Myself
      out of positions of danger."

      "... the higher echelon, or the
      superior officers, were always
      having a rough time with me
      because I never acted in accordance
      to what they expected of their
      enlisted personnel. I could block
      them and create all sorts of
      frustrations and problems for
      them which they never knew
      was happening, or they never
      laid the CAUSE to me. I could
      get the papers fumbled up on
      myself until one time they got
      me lost! ... this sort of thing
      had created a vacuum which
      I had set out to do, to create
      the confusion, and I was 'lost'
      between battalions."

      "... sometimes I'd go downtown,
      and sometimesI'd go to the
      canteen on the base, or I'd
      sleep or do something."

      "Well, life became sort of a
      'don't care' --happy-go-lucky--
      Easy Way of living sort of thing
      and everybody was having a big
      laugh, and all that sort of thing.
      So then I decided that I had to
      be an officer..."

      "I knew that if anybody was Never
      physically fit for sea duty, that
      was me, because Psychologically
      I didn't want to get shot at. So
      I set the wheels in motion Behind
      The Scenes and the first thing
      I did, I went over to see the man
      who swore in new officers... which
      should have been the last thing
      on the list of doing. So he swore
      me in and there was nothing that
      they could do about it because
      I flunked my physical examination;
      I got out of most of them, but I
      flunked what I did take and made
      them awfully mad, but they says,
      'I don't know what to do.' ... And
      instead of going to sea, they started
      me in a training school..."

      "And all of this thing was in motion
      working for me, this Behind The Scene
      thing that I was talking about that
      I had learned to control my own
      destiny." [pgs. 52-57]

      Thus, we can see how a ConMan
      like Twit thinks and behaves even
      during wartime. It's all about him
      and having an angle. And, is it a
      coincidence that Twit mentions
      the term "Behind the Scenes" twice
      and that Klemp has a section on
      Eckankar.org that is titled "Behind
      the Scenes" with Paul Twitchell.

      BTW- Here are excerpts from the
      MR. ECK story (pgs. 94-96):

      "... I was on a parking lot getting
      ready to pull out, when some gentleman,
      long, lanky, looked like he had been
      dried up like a bean pole and a little
      hat on his head, rushed over and
      viewed my license plate which had
      nothing but 'ECK' on it; that is all,
      no numbers or anything. And he says,
      'Are you Mr. ECK?' And I very cautiously
      answered him, 'Why, yes, of course.'
      Which meaning, that of course as the
      MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master,
      I'm Mr. ECK, yes. He says, 'Y'know,
      I married... or rather my wife's maiden
      name was ECK, Amy ECK.' I says, 'Well,
      isn't that wonderful!' He says, 'Yes,
      it is.'

      [So, since the Mahanta is the ECK
      Paul didn't really lie to this guy.
      See how Twitchell rationalizes
      and makes it all up as he goes
      along. BTW -I shortened the
      dialogue because Paul goes on
      and on.]

      "... He just went away in a very
      blurred manner, his mind was only
      thinking of the communication and
      the warm relationship that he had
      suddenly struck up with this stranger
      here who was actually in a way, kidding

      "Well, this is one of the funny things
      about the Astral Plane and the Physical
      Plane because the Astral Plane will do
      a lot of this in the sense of Not, it's
      Not a Deceit or anything BUT it is arousing
      the emotions and the emotions overcome
      common sense on the intellectual side
      and we don't have any answer to give
      when somebody makes us recall an
      incident as what would be in this,
      projecting ourselves in the future to
      say what we would think of it."

      PT's comments in this book
      show the foundations of
      deceit behind Eckankar.

      I had a message that we
      need to 'let go and move
      on.' Well, I will when Eckists
      do! When those I helped to
      bring into the EK org. recognize
      the lies, quit, and move on
      then I will too!


      brighttigress wrote:

      [Digest Number 1527]

      Good one, Prometheus!

      "Diff" is a great book because it
      reveals a lot about Twitch, in his
      own words. I really do think that
      subconsciously, Twitch wanted
      people to see that ekult was just
      one big scam, sort of a practical
      joke, and he wanted to be recognized
      for his criminal genius.

      I always thought his claims about
      the number of books he'd read were
      a gross exaggeration. It's humanly
      impossible. And his claims that he
      could "read" a book by sleeping on it -
      well, Edgar Cayce could do that, and
      Twitch stole the idea. Just like he
      referred to Cayce when he was caught
      giving the same expensive "eck-vidya"
      readings to the same people, and threw
      a bit of a Wizard of Oz "Pay no attention
      to the man behind the curtain" hissy-fit
      and told people he had "masterly" reasons
      for the duplicate readings that lowbies
      couldn't understand - and he whined
      that surely Cayce had made some mistakes
      in his "readings", too.

      I forget where Twitch wrote that he was
      going to rewrite history, but I remember
      posting the quote a long time ago. And,
      is it in "Diff" where Twitch writes about
      running into a derelict-type one night,
      who was looking for "Mr. Eck", and had
      that lightbulb moment and decided that
      *he* would be "Mr. Eck"?

      And the one where he's walking on the
      beach feeling sorry for himself and looking
      at his failed life....moaning & groaning
      "why me"....when aha, he realizes it's
      because he's been in training to become
      Master of the Universe!!


      If you read Twitch's own thoughts & words,
      and delete all the purloined "spiritual" stuff,
      he truly reveals himself.



      Prometheus wrote:
      These quotes are from "Difficulties
      Of Becoming The Living ECK Master."

      Here's a 1971 comment from PT
      from page 28:

      "I knew that I myself was not the
      same as that child that was next
      to me. I knew that I was superior
      in my mentality, I knew that I was
      superior to the teacher in all my
      knowledge, in all my understanding."

      Here's what appeared earlier in
      the Oct.-Nov.-Dec. 1970 Mystic
      World article (page 244):

      "Paul does not appear to like the
      intellectual person. He says they
      are all the same, making elaborate
      little plans. They give fussy attention
      to small perfections and when something
      goes wrong because of their inborn
      blindness, they scream frantically
      for help from someone else to act
      in their behalf--to do something
      for them."

      Thus, it seems we have another PT
      contradiction or a self-loathing!

      BTW- Since, Klemp is listed in the
      "International Who's Who of INTELLECTUALS,
      ninth edition" is Paul (the original
      Mahanta) giving a reading to Klemp
      via the ECK-Vidya, or is this proof
      that Klemp Would Not have been
      Paul's choice to become the LEM/M!

      Here's more of what Paul has to say
      about his intellect and how to "read"
      books (pg. 30):

      "Anyway, this was one of the things
      I'm trying to show you that where
      over these other people, and I got
      it in the way that I told you one time
      READING THEM and sometimes it
      just came natural to me... This
      was a part of that which we call the
      mastership or the training of the
      ECK mastership."

      More on what Paul has to say about
      reading (pg. 98):

      "It is said now that a reader who is
      a good reader, who enjoys reading,
      can read 7,000 books a year normally.
      I have proven this out myself because
      when I was in Seattle I READ ABOUT
      35,000 BOOKS, OR I DON'T SAY THAT
      BOOKS of every subject you can know
      which built me a background for a
      certain bit of the work I have today...
      when I was in Washington, D.C. for
      several years, I READ about 15,000
      books in the Congressional Library...
      in New York. I MAY HAVE READ 5,000
      or something like that when I was
      there for one year in 1946."

      Well, as we can see Paul is Full of
      B.S. He sounds like the ConMan
      that he was and shows us that at
      the most he either "skimmed" these
      35,000 books, or is lying about
      this too! But, in any case he does
      show us how he created the
      "background" for Eckankar as
      "a certain bit of the work I have

      Here's more PT comments (1971)
      that tend to contradict the use of
      skim-reading and the sleeping on
      books for "chelas" with regard to
      The ECK Discourses (pgs.196-197):

      "They lack a good understanding
      as to what is taking place as they
      study these. Often they become
      entangled in trying to figure out
      a syntax, notice a typographical
      error, or READ QUICKLY FOR
      INFORMATION. They tie themselves
      up in all sorts of LOGIC, GRAMMAR,
      and other sorts of opinions and
      SOME READ QUICKLY and say,
      'There is nothing new in that.'

      This is nothing new because EKists,
      still, tend to fill-in the blanks with
      their imaginations when the info
      comes up short (too simple), is
      redundant, lacks details, and seems
      illogical (unbelievable, untrue).

      "The Second Factor is that the
      student who is in A HURRY FOR
      INFORMATION and engages in
      CONCLUSIONS on the basis of
      a few paragraphs HASTILY
      SCAMMED, misses the most
      important benefits of all."

      It's no wonder that Eckists
      still get confused with the
      "do as I say, not as I do"
      attitude and rules that all
      religious leaders use!

      BTW- What are "the most
      important benefits of all,"
      for the chela, that PT is
      mentioning in this last
      sentence? Aren't the Higher
      EK Initiations the most
      important benefits of all!


      HK's God-Realization Promise and the 8th Initiation!

      prometheus wrote:

      Hello Etznab and All,
      Or, we could look at "The" living
      "saviour" origin as well. I don't
      know! However, PT realized that
      people needed a living idol to adore
      and had this Mystic World article
      written in his behalf:

      "But few ever connect him up with
      being a holy man, the MAHANTA,
      the Living ECK Master. There is a
      need of the people to believe in
      the magic of a saviour, and Sri Paul
      Twitchell knows this and acts out
      the part." [April-May-June 1971,
      Difficulties of Becoming the LEM,
      pg. 250]

      However, in order to become a
      "Saviour" Paul had to have had
      a Virgin Birth (this is SOP). The
      following comes from pages 251-
      253 of Difficulties of Becoming
      the Living ECK Master:

      "Ramaj, viceroy for Sat Nam...
      Rebazar Tarzs... Gopal Das..and
      Yaubl Sacabi... met to discuss
      the birth of the coming Avatar
      for the Twentieth Century,
      Peddar Zaskq. Born in the
      Caucasian mountains during
      the seventeenth century...
      Given several years in the art
      of silence and Darkness he gained
      enlightenment in preparation
      for his return to the Twentieth
      Century. [HK should take note
      of this next statement] When
      the time came for his demise,
      he passed away still looking
      the same youthful appearance
      yet beyond the normal age of

      This time Peddar Zaskq was
      born on a Mississippi River
      packet enroute to New Orleans.
      The miraculous birth took place
      just below the city of Natchez,
      Mississippi just below a stock
      farm (manger)... There appeared
      a Blue Carnation in a vase on
      a night table by THE mother's
      bed... It was immediately
      arranged for him to be given
      a home in which to be raised.
      His foster parents raised him
      in a small southern river town
      [Paducah, Kentucky]. He adopted
      their name and became known
      as Paul Twitchell." [end of quote]

      We, also, have Twit saying this
      as an excuse for his lies and self-
      promotion [pg. 126]:

      "So therefore we got to be, to
      place ourselves in the mainstream,
      which I hope I do and I have to say,
      unless I make myself a Historical
      Figure, the struggle of ECK for
      survival is useless. And the question
      of that comes up, well, why? Why
      do you make such a statement as
      that? Every man who sets out to
      do something in this world, unless
      he made himself a Historical Figure,
      then he never again is remembered
      except by a few when he passes."

      PT's Paris (Kentucky) Story is
      on page 254 and comes from
      an article in The Mystic World
      July-Aug.-Sept, 1971:

      "The rest of his story is told in
      fragments of his first visit to
      Paris to be with his stepsister,
      who was in training to be an
      artist. It was here that he first
      met Sudar Singh, an ECK Master,
      and followed him to India with
      his stepsister to study ECK..."

      More about "Paris" (Kentucky)
      from pages 38-40:

      "Later I would be able to go to
      Paris to see my sister who was
      studying art at one of the art
      studios Over There. She was
      under an instructor who had
      studied under Degas... who was
      a very famous portrait painter
      of the opera and the ballet during
      his day in PARIS."

      Thus, we can clearly see that Twit
      was lying and trying to deceive us
      into thinking this was Paris, France
      (not Paris, Kentucky) since he's
      including Degas in the story.

      "I suppose that that's where she
      got her ability to paint figures
      because she had COPIED Degas
      time and time again... Well, in
      living in Paris, I was quite happy
      at the time when I was OVER there
      with my SISTER, my stepsister,
      Katie." [Twit would call her Kay-Dee]

      "...we took advantage of this freedom,
      because for some reason the Europeans
      seemed to have an affection for young
      people, more than they had in the
      western countries, particularly at that
      time." [Here, PT has without a doubt
      connected-the-dots for us by saying
      that he was in Europe and not Kentucky]

      "We were just a few block away from
      Montmartre, where all the famous
      artists were living... Edgar Degas was
      the last that I knew of, Katie was very
      close to him because she was studying
      under one of his students." [Was Degas
      even living in this year? What a liar!]

      "WE met with Sudar Singh who was the
      leading advocate of Soul Travel. From
      Paris we decided that we would go back
      to his little ashram, which was five miles
      above ALLAHABAD, on what they call Old
      Canteen Road..." [So, from Paris, France
      (Kentucky) they went to Allahabad, India!]

      "After I had left India, came home, I was
      then about sixteen. I had a year or so to
      do some work in order to finish my degree."
      [page 48]

      Note: Klemp gives Paul's birthdate as
      Oct. 22, 1908. Thus, if Paul was 16
      this was 1924. However, Klemp states
      on eckankar.org that at age 27 (1935)
      Paul was trying to get into "Who's Who
      in Kentucky" by "exaggerating" and
      "twisting facts" and that he'd never
      traveled outside of the United States
      at that time. Therefore, Paul is still,
      as the M/LEM, lying about these events
      in 1971! And, PT was never in Paris,
      France prior to 1965 and never traveled
      to India (from Paris) with his sister to
      meet Sudar Singh at age 16.

      Here's another PT tidbit that tells a lot:

      "Now, a lot of the impressions that I first
      set out in my first work, I'm having to go
      back and redo these things and try to
      correct them." [page 135]


      etznab wrote:

      Prometheus & All,

      Where and when do you suppose the idea
      of "The" Living Master first occurred in the
      records of history?

      Anybody want to hazard a guess about the
      time frame?

      How about the country?


      Hello Z and All,
      I agree that there is only One link
      up with the Divine. IMO it's not
      through a manmade religion or via
      their manmade initiations. It's an
      on-going series of private, personal,
      and subjective events/experiences
      with the Holy Spirit that excludes a
      group think/consciousness, although,
      we all have commonalities.

      No person (Klemp or otherwise) nor
      any imaginary "Inner Master" can dole
      out real/true initiations (denoting levels
      of spiritual consciousness) to others
      by saying this or that person deserves
      one while another doesn't.

      However, one has to understand how
      religion works. It's very competitive.
      It's almost like buying an insurance
      policy. The one that has the best
      word of mouth reputation via happy
      customers and advertises more, while
      having the best value and coverage
      for the cost, usually does well until
      it defaults due to too many claims
      that it can't cover. After a default
      or a hesitation on coverage of their
      promises (policy) the company
      (religion) can come across as an
      unsafe investment (scam). Thus,
      people will then start to shop
      around. However, if you're Self-
      insured you don't need to shop

      Yes, I too seem to remember Twit
      saying that Sat Nam will take over
      Soul's guidance upon receiving the
      5th initiation.

      In "The Path of the Masters" (pg. 199,
      1977 edition) it states that Sat Nam
      is the "Supreme Guru" and in Klemp's
      EK Lexicon he states that Sat Nam is
      "the lord of ALL ABOVE and below;
      the Power, the Light, flowing down
      and OUT to ALL CREATION, to CREATE,
      [pg. 183]

      If one is to take this literally it means
      that SAT NAM is the one true "Inner
      Master" versus the Mahanta! Plus,
      many other religions acknowledge
      Sat Nam and have written of this
      entity in ancient text while PT, on
      the other hand, created his "Mahanta"
      competitor in 1969.

      See, once again we can see how
      religions compete with one another
      for members. Eckists need to be
      willing to stand back and take a
      detached look.

      As I said before... buying into a
      religion is like buying insurance...
      just don't trust that you can collect
      on their promises (in this lifetime)
      and read the exclusions (fine print).
      However, one should remember
      that in the Free World one doesn't
      need to buy/have a religion. It's
      not the law!


      zephrendhun wrote:

      Well said Promethius!

      But then again as I have said,
      there really is only one link up
      or one true initiation.

      IMO, all other initiations are
      EK ankar's way of maintaining
      'customer base'.

      The God Realized state can only
      be achieved through diligence
      by the chela to establish a one on
      one relationship with Divine Source.

      Strange though, I seem to remember
      reading somewhere in the works
      of ECK that after the chela reaches
      the 5th world, the Lord Sat Nam
      takes over looking after the chela
      and his journey into God Consciousness.
      I may be wrong, but I do believe
      I saw this somewhere in Paul's


      prometheus wrote:

      Klemp doesn't deliver on any
      real promises does he? Why
      hasn't Klemp speeded up the
      ECK initiations so that the
      promise of God-Realization
      in This Lifetime can be fulfilled?

      Why were the EK initiations
      "slowed down" in the first
      place? Wasn't HK claiming
      the initiations were "slowed
      down" because of Darwin's
      past involvement with promoting
      500 EKists to the 5th before
      he was excommunicated? So,
      what's been the excuse since
      Klemp guided them to become
      real/full 5ths? And, DG promoting
      these 500 5ths didn't or shouldn't
      have affected the 6ths, 7ths,
      or 8th initiations! Klemp has
      been using this as an excuse
      Not to promote for all of these
      years! This is subterfuge!

      Where's the Master's promise
      of "protection" to chelas too?
      Instead, the excuse is that it's
      a "test" of faith (for H.I.s),
      or Karma and maybe a minor
      "test" for chelas (lower initiates).

      Here's a quote from HK's
      Eckankar Lexicon:

      "HUKIKAT LOK. The plane
      of GOD-REALIZATION where
      Soul learns GOD-KNOWLEDGE;
      the EIGHTH PLANE. The sound
      is of a thousand violins; the
      word is Aluk. HIGHEST STATE
      the first realm created that
      and ENTITIES for DWELLING."
      [page. 91]

      Thus, "Souls," "Beings," and
      "Entities" "Generally Reach
      and Dwell" on this 8th Plane
      via the 8th Initiation.

      BTW- Who are these "Beings"
      and "Entities" that the 8th
      Plane is "Available To?"

      Notice that HK states that
      Soul "Generally Reaches" the
      "8th Plane." Does that include
      all Souls, or just those paying
      that Annual ECKankar Membership
      Donation/Fee? it's unclear isn't
      it? However, HK's Eckankar Lexicon
      doesn't require an EK Membership
      I.D. to purchase it... thus, it's
      for the public too. One has to
      assume that HK is speaking "in
      general" terms and that this includes
      all Souls, Beings, and Entities
      whoever or whatever they are!

      Yes, who are these "Beings" and
      "Entities" that Klemp is including?

      However, since ECKists are special
      since they have a "Mahanta" why is
      it that they aren't growing by leaps
      and bounds with "Higher" Initiations?
      Is this a paradox or a Catch-22 or
      what? IMO it's another Catch-22

      Really! Let's think about it.
      Why hasn't Klemp handed
      out more 8th Initiations? By
      my guesstimate there should
      be at least 3,000 8th Initiates
      by now!

      I know that this figure sounds
      inflated and even impossible!
      Most Eckists would be shocked
      to see such a high number and
      would immediately discount and
      deny that such a high number
      would be possible. Maybe some
      H.I.s would give a nervous laugh
      or just say Haw! But, think about
      it for awhile. Let it sink in and
      consider the possibility. Hasn't
      the Consciousness of ECKists,
      and Eckankar as a group, expanded
      or "evolved" to the point where
      there should be 3,000 8th Plane

      Reread the above definition for
      HUKIKAT LOK that is, also, in
      Twitchell's (1973) Eckankar
      Dictionary. Except, in Twitchell's
      Eckankar Dictionary PT stated

      "HUKIKAT LOK. The plane of
      God-Realization where Soul
      learns God-knowledge, the
      eighth plane." [pg. 62]

      Thus Klemp added the following
      to PT's HUKIKAT LOK definition
      in his 1998 EK Lexicon:

      "The sound is of a thousand
      violins; the word is Aluk.
      REACHES; the first realm created

      Anyway, isn't one of the big
      promises of Eckankar that of
      reaching Spiritual Freedom and
      Self-Mastery, in This Lifetime,
      via the ECK Initiations that are
      seen as "yardsticks" to Higher
      Consciousness? Sure it is!

      So, where are all of those 8th
      Initiations? Klemp is just selfish
      and time is running out for him
      and others. He, or someone, needs
      to make restitution and keep those
      promises, at least, with the 8th
      Initiation which equates to God-
      Realization! Even if Klemp can't
      protect the health and well being
      of his, DG's and PT's initiates
      he could at least promote and
      give ECKists the 8th Initiation.

      If it's too much for Klemp (the
      LEM/Mahanta) to handle alone
      he can designate some of the
      responsibility to Rebazar and
      the other EK Masters. Therefore,
      there really shouldn't be any more
      delays or excuses. Promote them

      p.s. It's really too bad that there
      can't be an honest and open discussion
      about this. ECKists are instructed
      to "surrender" and "serve" with
      detachment and are to keep "silent"
      and not to "second guess" the LEM/
      Mahanta. But, isn't this how religions
      have always maintained control
      over their followers? What does
      Klemp have to fear? It's the "Truth"
      that he fears and this is why HK
      relies upon the RESA police hierarchy,
      with their positions of authority,
      to surpress their fellow 7th Initiates.

      Some European Countries
      Protect Their Citizens From
      the Cults of ECKankar and

      I saw where the French office
      of the Church of Scientology
      sect got into trouble for fraud.

      Is it possible that Eckankar
      could be next? Apparently
      Eckankar and Scientology
      are listed as "sects/cults"
      in many European countries
      (France, Belgium, Germany,
      etc.). These sects, like Scientology
      and Eckankar, don't have the
      legal status of main stream
      religions, nor do they have
      the same benefits under their


      The question is:

      What could be regarded as fraud?

      Would the Annual EK Membership
      Donation/Fee that promises
      enlightenment (God-Realization),
      via the 8th initiation for most
      Eckists in this lifetime, as well
      as, the "Protections" of the Master
      for all chelas (that never happens)
      be considered as Fraud? Klemp
      slowed these initiations down
      due to Darwin's involvement,
      but that's been a long time ago!

      Look at all of the ECKists
      who have died of or have
      contracted Cancer and other
      diseases! Yet, Klemp (the
      Master) promises them

      And, look at HK's "promises"
      to chelas and H.I.s involving
      God-Realization in this lifetime
      and yet he doesn't offer enough
      Higher Initiations to fullfil his
      promises! And, maintaining
      one's initiations is directly tied
      into the Annual EK Membership
      Donation Fee.

      Thus, the taking of money by
      Klemp, and Eckankar, for EK
      Discourses and EK Memberships
      and the making of False Promises
      to chelas for this present lifetime
      constitutes Fraud even though
      this isn't illegal in the U.S. for
      religions to make false promises.
      However, it is unethical and
      amoral at the very least! It does
      give "hope" to the disillusioned,
      disenfranchised, fearful, and needy,
      but isn't Eckankar supposed to
      be the best and highest path to
      help these Souls on earth, as well
      as, in heaven? Why then aren't the
      "promises" of the Master a reality
      in the physical instead of always
      being a KAL test or Karma?

      However, under most European
      Laws would this failure to deliver
      be considered to be fraudulent
      enough to be classified as a crime
      against the public? It seems so!

      It could be that under the laws
      of certain European countries that
      Eckankar (a religious Sect) could
      be found Guilty of Fraud IF an Eckist,
      or former Eckist, decided to be
      refunded the sums of their Annual
      EK Membership Donation Fees,
      and Eckankar denied the refunds.

      Maybe some former or current
      German, French, and Belgium
      Eckists will consider asking Eckankar
      for a refund for the sum of their
      EK Memberships over the years!

      Will Eckankar follow Scientology?


      Here's an excerpt of the definition
      of Fraud from Black's Law Dictionary

      "FRAUD. An intentional perversion
      of truth for the purpose of inducing
      another in reliance upon it to part
      with some valuable thing belonging
      to him or to surrender a legal right...

      [A Required/Requested Annual
      Membership Donation $$$$$$]

      Elements of a cause of action for
      'fraud' include false representation
      of a present or past fact made by
      the defendant, action in reliance
      thereupon by plaintiff, and damage
      resulting to plaintiff from such
      misrepresentation... As distinguished
      from negligence, it is always
      positive, intentional. It comprises
      all acts, omissions, and concealments
      involving a breach of a legal or
      equitable duty and resulting in
      damage to another. And includes
      anything calculated to deceive,
      whether it be a single act or
      combination of circumstances...
      Fraud, as applied to contracts,
      is the cause of an error bearing
      on a material part of the contract,
      created or contained by artifice,
      with design to obtain some unjust
      advantage to one party, or to cause
      an inconvenience or loss to the other."

      Thus, Eckankar has conducted a
      fraud of misrepresentation since
      it doesn't deliver on the Higher
      Initiations ["omissions"] required
      to attain God-Realization! [Refer
      to the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad Book
      2, Chapter 12.]

      Klemp, as the LEM/M, has an implied
      "contract" with his followers, but
      he only makes empty promises
      and does not fulfill his obligations,
      and yet he's ready and willing to take
      Eckists' hard earned money!

      And, let's look at Eckankar's
      "concealment" regarding Twitchell's
      plagiarisms, and that Klemp continues
      to cover-up these facts.

      Thus, Eckankar, and all religions,
      sects, and cults (unless proven to be
      guilty of higher crimes) basically have
      carte blanche,' in the U.S., and can
      make false promises for money.

      What a scam! Eckists have been paying
      for their initiations for years but have
      been locked-out of those required for

      It's no wonder that Twit followed L. Ron's
      lead. However, in Belgium, France and
      Germany these cults and sects don't
      have the same protection as "religions"
      do. This is what the U.S. should have
      done 50 years ago!

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